This has seriously not been posted? Well, to repost Dienekes from another forum ...
dienekes96 wrote:Stolen from the B&C:
"OK people, the dex is back from the printers and it's a real peach! Base rules written Jervis, trimmings written by Matthew Hoggard I think his name is.
The info bellow is 100% taken from a final print new SM dex.
Codex
144 pages. (twice he size of the necron dex)
Written by Jervis + Matt
Cover art of Ultramarines
Section for each of the Chapters of Legend (like Eldar Craftworlds in C:Eldar) but without any in-game rules.
General Marine Rules
Combat Squads works as codex Dark angels. 1 Heavy 1 special.
New marine rule, based on Ld, called Comabt tactics.
New Drop pod rule.
Traits dissapear.
Free frag grenades, krak grenades and bolt pistols.
Unit Rules
new techmarine rules has a new option in the form of the thunderfire
Master of the forge, has a conversion beamer.
new land raider variant, called the Redeemer with Str 6 AP3 flamer sponsons and twin linked assault cannon. Sallies like this and the colour section has one in sallies colours.
3 Dread variants. Again sallies seem to favour the new Ironclad Dread which is like a heavy assault/breaching dread. (AV13)
New Veteran rules - Tactical Vets (special ammo like death watch.), and Assault vets (can have jump packs and an assaulted array of nasty CC weapons) can deep strike and assault in the same turn.
Scout bikers will remain.
No two special weapons even for Sallies .
5 man terminator squads 1 heavy.
Commander in terminator armour on a bike or has a jump pack has no bearing on army selection. However special characters do.
Rites of battle is gone. But marine captain get Halos
Special Characters
11 specials which add chapter traits to your army, Calgar, Tigirius, Lysander, Shrike, Kronos, Sicarius, Kantor, Tu'Shan (WTF really hard guy probably the best SM charater in the game but at 200+ points...), Cassius, White Scar guy and scout character, all will have models.
Other Stuff
Drop pod kit looks similar to the forgworld kit but is hollow with seats around the edges and a control table in the middle. Storm bolter come down from the ceiling of the pod when deployed.
Drop pod kit priced about the same as rhino's (£18)
Codex release date is October
Plastic LR redeemer/crusader
Plastic Scout bikers, imaging scouts on scrambler bikes!
Retooled Plastic Land speeder + another new varient which works with scout squads call land speeder storm.
Scouts have helfire heavy bolter rouns but are WS and BS 3 and are still troops
Thunderfire a thuddgun/molemortar cross.
New metal range (I think more metal vets!..... again.... mmmm jump packs!)
New Sicarus now has hair and a beard! *shrugs* go figure!
Razor back has may weapon option, twin heavy bolter, Heavy Flamers, Assault Cannons, Multimelta, Lascannon, and Lascon and twin plasma guns.
New HQ units.
Marines are now what you may call pretty hard!
HQ
Specials
Captain
Master of the forge
Librarians
Chaplains
Preadator
Devastators
Vindicator
Wirlwind
Land Raider
Land Raider Crusader
Land Raider Redeemer"
My reflections;
Elite section is clustered.
No two special weapons in 10 = weak like Ukraine
AP 3 Flamer Land Raider = Me buy
New Rule is called combat tactics, voluntary fall back = Awesome
New Vets = Actually make sense, look fun (Deep strike and assault, yes please)
Scouts weaker but still in Troops = Time will tell if everyone goes all Tacs...
Thunderfire = Sounds full of win"
Yea, I just saw that over on BoLS, and came here for more.
I think if scouts go to say 8-9 points, and can get the demi-rending sniper rifles they will still be tasty. Rending rifles with a heavy bolter is handy, or even mixed with a missile launcher for horde and possible vehicle work will be nice.
I want that landraider for my Sisters SO hard. Really when you think of it, it isn't too uber since you have to get so close to the enemy, but if they do ignore it or fail to break it, it will be murderous.
Wehrkind wrote:I want that landraider for my Sisters SO hard. Really when you think of it, it isn't too uber since you have to get so close to the enemy, but if they do ignore it or fail to break it, it will be murderous.
I believe the range is 24' for the Inferno Cannons on the Raider. So not that close.
I believe this was my post on Warseer, as the last "Reflections" part were my thoughts on the dex. I mention this so Dienekes isn't forced to defend statements he didn't make .
No two specials and no Apoths still make me a sad panda = |.
Wehrkind wrote: I want that landraider for my Sisters SO hard. Really when you think of it, it isn't too uber since you have to get so close to the enemy, but if they do ignore it or fail to break it, it will be murderous.
No kidding. Maybe it'll show up in the rumored Inquisition codex as a transport option for an Inquisitor.
Which chapters do Kronos, Sicarius, Kantor, and Cassius belong to?
So right now my CSM are pretty jealous of the new marine stuff. I had expected to see C: SM be a big nerfing and genericizing of the current book, and while I'm happy to see so many "weird" troops and options in there - conversion beemer, thuddgun, redeemer raider, storm speeder - it leaves me a little miffed (again) at what happened to my army's book. Ah well.
Happy to see all the Salamander options, though I feel AP3 on the redeemer is out of place. 3 dread options is cool, and the AV13 dread again invokes my envy. All in all though, have fun Lapdogs, looks to be a good 'dex on the way
Special Characters
11 specials which add chapter traits to your army, Calgar, Tigirius, Lysander, Shrike, Kronos, Sicarius, Kantor, Tu'Shan (WTF really hard guy probably the best SM charater in the game but at 200+ points...), Cassius, White Scar guy and scout character, all will have models.
I hope this isn't that bad, though I suspect people will just
convert their own anyway and say, "This is my Commander
Malfred who counts as Lysander because look at the size of
his fists..."
So DA Termies get 1 heavy and can mix assault/shooty weapons. Marines get 1 heavy and can't? They better be 35pts or something. I think they went a little overboard with the termie assault cannon nerfing.
Well it looks like my marines will be bunk and I only had 2 units of termies. I can't really complain to much as they won me a 5000pt Guard army in the Ard Boyz tourney.
I'm interested to see if any marine configuration can handle the 5th edition Ork Horde list.
"And on the off-chance that the daemons get into combat, the marines can just combat tactics back and be ready to shoot again the next turn..."
My experiences suggest that if the Marines get charged by Daemons they won't be falling anywhere but on their faces. Daemon charges are absurdly lethal.
Hmm. I hope that at least one of those special characters has an allowance for taking more assault squads. otherwise, my chapter is pretty much outta luck. Don't want to play my marines as standard codex, might have to skew it towards the Blood Angels after all.
Glad to see there are more toys to play with and a few things being brought into line, though. Ah well, guess I'll see what I can do with this new list come October.
My dust-collecting SMs really like how this shapes up. Can we officially cross Jervis's name off the list of "designers I don't want writing my codex"?
Ok, I am solely taking all sniper scouts. Sniper scouts don't care about BS3. Assualt Vets = time to take names! The one problem I have is this: does this codex "nerf" the unique named Marine codices?
I am looking forward to the new codex, and especially the new scout biker models. IG Rough Riders on bikes!!!
Loss of marine traits practically guarantees loss of doctrines for IG. I was not planning on using any for my Guard, but losing the option still stings.
I believe Storm Lord meant Apothecary sergeants in squads. The Apothecary should still be available as a command squad upgrade, but no more trait for more.
tkdarktrooper, the sniper rifle is rumored to work differently in 5E so the new scout BS3 will be a factor so don't go buy any until we see the book in print for ourselves.
Shrike might let you take Assault Squads as Troops.
I thought that Combat Tactics might just be an improvement on ATSKNF so that DA, BA, and BT would all get it. Wonder how they'll handle giving out the new rules and kit.
1. Even decent new vehicles and upgrades might have a stupid pricetag attached (and I am not talking about the cost in money this time). Some options sound promising but when you get GW unit pricing anything can happen.
2. To take non vanilla marines you need a special character from a select number of chapters. Unless generic Captains and Masters of the Forge can have thier own rules as ork big meks and warbosses do.
3. Land Speeder storm sounds like a good idea. I suppose the rules imply it cannot transport tacticals afterwards.
4. Any confirmation as to whether marines are 5man/10man only.
Chaplain Pallantide wrote:Isn't Kronos = Iron Hands? I am most likely wrong, but that's my guess...
Wasn't Kronos mentioned as a clan/company master in the iron hands that is venerable dreadnought? I maybe mistaken, otherwise if he's iron hand, he's a special master of the forge.
I'm curious about the scout special character... maybe he will allow veteran scouts, i.e. scouts with normal marine stats, since they got hit with the nerfing stick.
Sounds awesome? Sounds awesome against what? Current 4th edition lists and rules? In most cases a new codex brings the house down and it turns out it's not hat bad. In this case the new codex is bringing out cheers, yet I'm not quite so sure.
I can't see rending snipers and assault squads jumping in after deep strike as viable in 5th. Anything worth rending will be behind a 4+ cover shield. What can assault marines do against 30 boyz? Kill a bunch of 6pt models and then get swamped? On top of that don't be so sure the price of said assault marines won't be pretty high. How close do you deep strike them and not be worried about poofing the whole unit to scatter?
The biggest thing I see is a reduction of heavy weapons (duh) while at the same time an increase in the viability of horde lists. Remember folks the basic marine is becoming as useful as a DA marine. A DA marine. That includes all it's ability to shoot at the enemy. I don't see a lot of small elite units in the future of 40K so any marine tactic to take those out loses a lot of it's luster.
Attack Bikes seem to be the biggest threat a marine army will have. The ability to put out 3 very mobile heavy bolters/Multi-meltas will be like no other unit in 5th edition.
I'm not saying the new marine dex sounds like the end of marines, I'm just not as rosie eyed as what I'm reading here. Not to excited and not to down on any of the new dexes until I see tham played.
Master of the forge, has a conversion beamer.
new land raider variant, called the Redeemer with Str 6 AP3 flamer sponsons and twin linked assault cannon. Sallies like this and the colour section has one in sallies colours.
3 Dread variants. Again sallies seem to favour the new Ironclad Dread which is like a heavy assault/breaching dread. (AV13)
New Veteran rules - Tactical Vets (special ammo like death watch.), and Assault vets (can have jump packs and an assaulted array of nasty CC weapons) can deep strike and assault in the same turn.
Special Characters
11 specials which add chapter traits
Retooled Plastic Land speeder + another new varient which works with scout squads call land speeder storm.
Scouts have helfire heavy bolter rouns but are WS and BS 3 and are still troops
Razor back has may weapon option, twin heavy bolter, Heavy Flamers, Assault Cannons, Multimelta, Lascannon, and Lascon and twin plasma guns.
Of course, this is a Jervis book. Who is "Matt" - some sock puppet?
ATSKNF *and* Volutary Fallback? Wow, GW wants to make sure SM never lose.
New Land Raider? Totally unneeded, but hey, whatever.
Furioso and Siege Dreads for everyone? OK.
Uber Veterans and Assault Veterans? Cool. Tho this pinches the BA a bit.
Hands up, who's surprised that you need a Special Character to change the army list...
Nice to see that GW will make the Land Speeder buildable. But really, the Scouts don't need a Land Speeder.
Nice to see Scouts going back down to WS3 BS3 to stay Troops. Hopefully, they also go back to T3 Ld7 and lose ATSKNF to drive the point home.
Nice to see that we'll get twin-AssCan Razorbacks. I want!
Wehrkind wrote:I think if scouts go to say 8-9 points,
With their good USRs, reduced cost and availability as cut-price SM Troops, Scouts will be worth at least 12 points/model.
gorgon wrote:Conversion beamer FTW!
Can we officially cross Jervis's name off the list of "designers I don't want writing my codex"?
Yeah, I'm also super-geeked for the Conversion Beamer.
And FWIW, I'll take a Jervis-dex over a Gav-dex any day of the week.
victorpofa wrote:Loss of marine traits practically guarantees loss of doctrines for IG.
As if wasn't guaranteed when Eldar lost Craftworlds and Chaos lost Legions?
dietrich wrote:Shrike might let you take Assault Squads as Troops.
Possible, but unlikely, given that SM now have Assault Veterans. If you want Assault Squads as Troops, I still think you'll have to play BA.
Well, instead of all of us speculating [and I am guilty of it as well], why don't we just stop talking about this thread and wait until the codex come out. I think that is the best thing to do at this moment, wait...that makes too much sense. Silly me for looking through rose-colored glasses.
Voodoo Boyz wrote:I have to say that some of this sounds absolutely far-fetched.
You're telling me that Loyalist SM's are going to get Veteran Assault Marines that can deepstrike and charge the same turn?
That's slowed.
Well, if you look at it on face value it looks pretty strong. On the other hand consider this;
33% chance of landing where you want to
6 inch assault
In 5th you place the first guy, make a circle around him as you deploy
You cannot deploy within an inch of the enemy, if you do...you roll the mishap table.
So, if you do place your unit to ensure you will be within assault range (6 inches)..and scatter towards them...
6,7,8 most common number on 2d6 (Plus 1 inch you must be placed away from enemy unit)
So any of those numbers with a scatter towards = you on their unit = roll the mishap table
Mishap table: 1-2 Put back in reserve, 3-4 Unit is dead, 5-6 Opponent can place the unit anywhere they want (Basically dead)
If you scatter away from their unit, well assaulting is a moot point.
Then, add in the counter-attack USR, no kill zone removal, no consolidation into a fresh enemy, etc...and elite HTH units suddenly don't look so great. I doubt I would even DS my Veteran Assault Squad at this point (Unless they make the mishap table less harsh or scatter less random). Don't Orks currently have a unit that can DS with an 85 point upgrade (Special Char)?
As a Salamander player I don't know whether jump for joy or cry in despair.
I guess I'll just have to be happy with flamery land raiders, AV13 burninator dreads, razorbacks with multimeltas or assault cannons and the best SM character in the book...
wait wth are peopel so happy with this. fine marines are geting some interesting new models, i liek that.
But i do not think this idea with the special characters is such a good idea, wth do us players who don't play one of these chapters do? i don't get the idea of making spcial characters like this. are they just going to say if your chapter is similar just take that special character.... whats with this BS? its just another way of making your army less personlised like a twist on the new chaos marine codex (before anyone says they are very different, i agree but they are both de personising the armies)
are they just going to say if your chapter is similar just take that special character.... whats with this BS?
Sounds reasonable to me, actually.
I'm not a fan of excessive simplification by any means. I hate the loss of LatD and of marked daemons from the CSM dex. Some things, however, are acceptable losses, and to me, at least, having to use a special character to unlock certain options is one of them. People are used to 'counts-as" by now, in large part thanks to Eldrad.
As for the Chaos dex, while it angered lots of long-time players, it's clearly not as bad as all that where most players are concerned. Just look at the profusion of Chaos lists on the Army Lists forum.
Jayden63 wrote:Looks stupidly unbalanced and under playtested. But Marines are GWs glory boys. So what else is new.
Ah, the height of mouthbreathing. How on Earth can you possibly make anything close to an educated statement on balance in a book you have never seen and have only typo-ridden rumor posts to base opinions on?
Sgt.Roadkill wrote:wait wth are peopel so happy with this. fine marines are geting some interesting new models, i liek that.
But i do not think this idea with the special characters is such a good idea, wth do us players who don't play one of these chapters do? i don't get the idea of making spcial characters like this. are they just going to say if your chapter is similar just take that special character.... whats with this BS? its just another way of making your army less personlised like a twist on the new chaos marine codex (before anyone says they are very different, i agree but they are both de personising the armies)
Theres a beautiful little style called "Counts As"
I think most of the stuff done to the marines in this codex makes sense; it might not be directly fluffish for new technology to come out of no where but the nature of how it fits into the marine army does. A scout speeder makes sense, how else would marine scouts get to an area to direct a marine drop pod landing; moving on foot they wouldn't always be able to catch up to a mechanized force so I like it.
From this unit list I think this codex will succeed at allowing us to create armies with alot of character without being dependent on the trait system that many saw as broken or in the very least abused. With the exception of the non-codex marine chapters I see this codex allowing people wide berth to mix and match units according to how they envision their chapter. The way special characters are used to further drive an army type with a special rule is a good way of still allowing those other distinctive armies; I think its a little unfortunate they're special characters but at DeathGod points as "Counts As" is a good alternative. I think this will be a good codex.
tkdarktrooper wrote:Well, instead of all of us speculating [and I am guilty of it as well], why don't we just stop talking about this thread and wait until the codex come out. I think that is the best thing to do at this moment, wait...that makes too much sense. Silly me for looking through rose-colored glasses.
Yeah. Really this thread reads as staggered pro and con posts about the new codex rumors. In a way that makes me think that what they get for their next codex may be pretty well balanced with other newer armies. We will see.
jfrazell wrote:Hey hey jokes on you necros. When the new IG codex comes out, plasma will be limited to one per platoon.
Heh, but really... Necros probably has until the middle of 2009 to worry about that.
Hey, Necros, do you mean to tell me that you didn't already have max plasgun models for your guard army? It's one of the only things IG has going for it!! Whats the matter with you?!?!
Jayden63 wrote:Looks stupidly unbalanced and under playtested. But Marines are GWs glory boys. So what else is new.
Ah, the height of mouthbreathing. How on Earth can you possibly make anything close to an educated statement on balance in a book you have never seen and have only typo-ridden rumor posts to base opinions on?
While I agree with the overall point you're trying to make (DON'T PANIC! ` at least, not yet!), the whole "mouthbreating" thing stopped being clever and/or funny after the first post you used it in...
Putting aside that these are at best shakey rumors, what might look unbalanced in 4ed may not be quite as good in 5ed.
Look at what was stated above on the vet assault marines. Sure they can assault after deep strike, but good luck getting within 6" without losing the squad to the new mishap table or dangerous terrain tests.
The voluntary fallback is nice, till you figure many assaults are more deadly overall now and most won't last past turn 1 anyways. It is still a great ability but will it be as good as it would have been in 4ed? I have my doubts.
Also, did you all really think they'd dump traits and shoe horn the Space marines into the Dark Angels style without something extra like the DA/BA got in return? It would have been the most bland codex ever. Like the 3ed one but worse.
Let's not forget that no point costs have been posted. If the new Land Raider is 500 points, it'll never see the field. Overall, I'm looking forward to it.
But, it typical GW mode, they screwed up the drop pod. Sure, now there's a kit. But, it's more points. And you can't get two special weapons in a tac squad. So, now that they finally have a model, it'll see a lot less play (assuming the rules are the same).
hehe my platoons have 1 plasma in each squad, I took the lascannons out to make HW teams with them so my units are more mobile. My 2 platoon command squads have 4 flamers, so there's 8 more plasmas I can add But then, when those 4 flamers go off, they still burn up marines pretty good.
if they do restrict the plasmas it won't be a big deal to pop off the plasma arms and switch to grenade lauchers which I keep hearing are getting buffed, or switch to meltas or something.
and yeah, i'm not worrying about it cuz it'll be quite a while till I have to change anything.....
Is it just me, or does voluntary fallback seem absolutely overpowered to me...
You move up, rapidfire that 30 man boyz squad (and/maybe) flamer template... get charged, voluntary fallback with your 1 or 2 remnants... as long as your flamer dude didn't die (i.e. put him WAY in the back) you can kill a WHOLE PILE of enemy dudes that are all bunched up.
Ugh.
Space Marines - universal rules and options that break the standard ruleset:
Ignores under 50% regroup rules: Check
Immune to being locked in assault: Check
Ignores standard regroup tests: Check
Basic troop can be made to two autonomous scoring units without giving up proportionate victory points for taking damage: Check
Transport capacity overages can be ignored when purchased for basic troops (see above): Check
May deepstrike regardless of mission: If desired
May assault after deepstrike: If desired
Luckily, the rumours seem to suggest that the following options from the V4 codex are gone (traits nonwithstanding)
Auto-Ld10 for everyone - since this would make the voluntary fallback pretty much automatically succeed.
Unlimited use 50% auto-negate psychic powers with psychic hood
Unlimited range no-LOS needing autosmite psychic power
Granted, this is outside the framework of playing games with the new dex in 5th edition... but it is interesting that Marines seem to be the ones getting lots of rules exceptions, where as traditional rule breaking armies like Eldar get saddled mostly with USRs.
Alpharius wrote:While I agree with the overall point you're trying to make (DON'T PANIC! ` at least, not yet!), the whole "mouthbreating" thing stopped being clever and/or funny after the first post you used it in...
Unless it is your Trademark Item?
I was just about to post something similar. It's not a word that should be used in every other sentence as a noun, verb, adjective and adverb...unlike F*&K, for instance. Now that's versatile. Mouthbreathing...not so much.
tkdarktrooper wrote:Well, instead of all of us speculating [and I am guilty of it as well], why don't we just stop talking about this thread and wait until the codex come out. I think that is the best thing to do at this moment, wait...that makes too much sense. Silly me for looking through rose-colored glasses.
Hear! Hear! That's the same point I was making with my previous post. Anyone heard of a release date for this mighty tome?
i disagree that it isn't powerful at all and is somewhat needed to preserve the squads. 5th edition assaults usually end after the first round of a combat, even then the combat resolution piles more wounds on you. Having marines withdraw to save their numbers makes sense. This rule seems to be put into place to allow small elite armies to survive the inevitable use of horde armies. Play some games using 5th edition rules and you'll quickly see what I mean.
Capt K
keezus wrote:Is it just me, or does voluntary fallback seem absolutely overpowered to me...
You move up, rapidfire that 30 man boyz squad (and/maybe) flamer template... get charged, voluntary fallback with your 1 or 2 remnants... as long as your flamer dude didn't die (i.e. put him WAY in the back) you can kill a WHOLE PILE of enemy dudes that are all bunched up.
Ugh.
Space Marines - universal rules and options that break the standard ruleset:
Ignores under 50% regroup rules: Check
Immune to being locked in assault: Check
Ignores standard regroup tests: Check
Basic troop can be made to two autonomous scoring units without giving up proportionate victory points for taking damage: Check
Transport capacity overages can be ignored when purchased for basic troops (see above): Check
May deepstrike regardless of mission: If desired
May assault after deepstrike: If desired
Luckily, the rumours seem to suggest that the following options from the V4 codex are gone (traits nonwithstanding)
Auto-Ld10 for everyone - since this would make the voluntary fallback pretty much automatically succeed.
Unlimited use 50% auto-negate psychic powers with psychic hood
Unlimited range no-LOS needing autosmite psychic power
Granted, this is outside the framework of playing games with the new dex in 5th edition... but it is interesting that Marines seem to be the ones getting lots of rules exceptions, where as traditional rule breaking armies like Eldar get saddled mostly with USRs.
You move up, rapidfire that 30 man boyz squad (and/maybe) flamer template... get charged, voluntary fallback with your 1 or 2 remnants... as long as your flamer dude didn't die (i.e. put him WAY in the back) you can kill a WHOLE PILE of enemy dudes that are all bunched up.
Based on rumors:
-Still appears you'd have to escape via the I roll first (granted not hard against orks).
-Then you have to beat orks 1d6 consolidate with the 2d6 fallback (again not hard but still not automatic).
-Orks would not be bunched up, they still consolidate 1D6.
-You have to fall back toward board edge. Removes alot of the freedom of hit-n-run. Also not something you'd want to do close to the board edge.
-Good chance the marines would have fallen back anyway in the scenario you've posed (probably lose by 3-4 models against the orks, giving them a good chance to break).
Still, this rule does give the marines an edge when they get lucky against the swarm of orks and also against other enemies. Like say spinegaunts, conscripts or swarms in which the marines could win a combat and get stuck for the duration. I'll be reserving judgement though till 5ed and we get the codex in hand.
Boss_Salvage wrote:New Sicarus now has hair and a beard! *shrugs* go figure!
There has got to be an Al Gore joke in there somewhere.
dietrich wrote:But, it typical GW mode, they screwed up the drop pod. Sure, now there's a kit. But, it's more points. And you can't get two special weapons in a tac squad. So, now that they finally have a model, it'll see a lot less play (assuming the rules are the same).
Well, due to the rumored changes to the power fist rules, combi-weapons on sergeants become viable (assuming they'll be legal), so it's not TOO bad.
Overall, it looks like we traded traits for a LOT of new unit and toys. Considering I never used traits anyway, I'm not fussed about it. My buddy's army (apothecaries and plasma guns in his tac squads) is going to be pretty messed-up, but he'd an avid converter, and has a lot of spare heavy weapons, so I doubt he'll cry too much.
Boss_Salvage wrote:Commander in terminator armour on a bike or has a jump pack has no bearing on army selection. However special characters do.
*cries*
This is... uhh! Why must special characters be a core part of the list. They're supposed to be for flavour, fun and fluff, not because I want to field a different army organisation.
While I was reading the rumors my wife asked me "Are you ok? Your face is red."
They chaos and they were supposed to bring marines in line with everybody else. Instead, they get lots of new toys, while we lost our toys. Bastards.
Rbb wrote:While I was reading the rumors my wife asked me "Are you ok? Your face is red."
They chaos and they were supposed to bring marines in line with everybody else. Instead, they get lots of new toys, while we lost our toys. Bastards.
Wait, you're mad because they took the complaints about DA and Chaos seriously, and tried to avoid making the same mistakes?
Basically. Fielding a Legion specific special character, like say Kharn, doesn't give you any special Legion rules. I was expecting it to be like DA and BA because JJ wrote them, too. If I played either one of them I would be super pissed. But not really mad. I didn't kick the cat or anything. Just thought it was funny she said that.
I thought consolidate moves have been removed. (And in 4th, it's only 3" if they don't get a massacre result)
Actually the whole massacre result move was removed in the leaked pdf, not consolidation. Now there is just consolidation, which is always a D6" move. I have not heard any reliable rumor that the consolidate move has been removed from the final rules. So my points above were based on the pdf.
Now what has been mentioned by several people that have seen the new rules is that units cannot consolidate into a new unit, period. The leaked pdf says you can't consolidate into an existing combat.
If the any unit thing is true, then that may also apply towards consolidating into a unit which has just fallen back from you. Hard to say at this point.
I don’t think we need to panic about the veteran assault troops just yet. Marine assault units have a long history of being underperformed and overpriced, with only a few exceptions. In the current codex you’ve got Shrike and his retinue, and their summary in a rumours post would make them look absurdly good. Once people actually read the rules and saw the points values (and, heaven forbid, played with them in a game) he suddenly became a very pricey unit built around gambling on getting the first turn. It’s highly likely the veteran assault marines will carry a similar gamble, and will probably cost too many points to justify the chance.
Then again, possibly not, they could be ridiculously underpriced and have full access to the marine armoury. We ultimately can’t make any meaningful predictions because we don’t have any detail on the special rules, let alone points costs, let alone any actual experience in play. We’re left with guesses based on personal bias (GW love marines! GW can’t balance! Jervis sucks!) and that just makes us look silly.
There’s plenty of information in there on codex design and a lot worth discussing; traits being effectively replaced by variant lists built around special characters, expansion of the elites section, combat squads were kept, reduction of scout stats possibly altering their role considerably. But discussion about balance, at this point, is devoid of content.
Pariah Press wrote:
Well, due to the rumored changes to the power fist rules, combi-weapons on sergeants become viable (assuming they'll be legal), so it's not TOO bad.
Yeah, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that "option" will be removed...
Yeah, probably Bolter, Storm Bolter (for 10 - LOL!) or Plasma Pistol (for 15-over-priced-points). I also look forward to seeing Power Fists (now with less attacks) going up in price to 25.
One thing you can also count on when GW writes rules is them overbalancing things.
GWDev 1: Power Fists are too powerful? What should we do?
Jervis: Remove the option completely, but draw a nice picture of it somewhere?
GWDev 1: No, something better than that.
GWDev 2: How about we don't allow them +1 for having a pistol!
GWDev 3: How about we jack up the price!
GWDev 1: Those are great ideas, and either one will balance the power fist nicley against other close combat options! So which one should we go for?
GWDev 4: How 'bout we do both!
GWDev Team: YEAH! GREAT IDEA! 3 HOUR LUNCH! WOOO!
Maybe I can just run my chaos marines using loyalist rules as a 'counts as' army. The WS/BS 3 scouts might make some pretty cool cultists or mutants. Then I guess you could say that GW would have succeeded in getting people to play "renegade" chapters.
On one hand I am very glad that the army books are improving. I liked the Ork book a lot, I think the Daemon list is cool (even if it isn't the strongest list ever due to the inherent randomness it is pretty unique and cool), and the new Marine book looks solid too. On the other hand why couldn't my poor chaos marines have gotten an interesting book too? Why did they have to go from the most unique and diverse army list in the game to "that book with the broken psychic power"?
Regarding stormbolters for veteran sergeants, please note that neither BA nor DA vets have stormbolters as an option (which hurts, because everybody who once could have a stormbolter in my BA force does).
I suspect that stormbolters (and combis of any sort) will not be an option for tactical squad veteran sergeants.
Tiderian wrote:Regarding stormbolters for veteran sergeants, please note that neither BA nor DA vets have stormbolters as an option (which hurts, because everybody who once could have a stormbolter in my BA force does).
tkdarktrooper wrote:Ok, I am solely taking all sniper scouts. Sniper scouts don't care about BS3. Assualt Vets = time to take names! The one problem I have is this: does this codex "nerf" the unique named Marine codices?
Sniper scouts will care about their BS3, as snipers will roll to hit with their BS in 5th edition
Jayden63 wrote:Looks stupidly unbalanced and under playtested. But Marines are GWs glory boys. So what else is new.
Ah, the height of mouthbreathing. How on Earth can you possibly make anything close to an educated statement on balance in a book you have never seen and have only typo-ridden rumor posts to base opinions on?
While I agree with the overall point you're trying to make (DON'T PANIC! ` at least, not yet!), the whole "mouthbreating" thing stopped being clever and/or funny after the first post you used it in...
Unless it is your Trademark Item?
Guilty as charged. Honestly, it's a term my local gaming group uses, so it's just part of my gaming vernacular.
Anyone else as afraid of the flamer Landraider as I am. Its the ultimate lawnmower. Since there are going to be cover saves a plenty in 5th ed. It only makes sense that the SM have a weapon that ignores them, ignores the armor save, and for giggles wounds every form of infantry on a 2+. Ohh, yeah, since the flamer is a template of sorts, under the new rules it probably doesn't miss either, it just scatters a little. But with a 4" roll back. I pray you can't lob that thing like the hellhounds can.
Then we have the lovely voluntary fallback rule. Nothing wrong with disengaging from a fight you may or may not have started, pull out, shoot with your bolt pistols and charge back in using BP/CCW combo (because now all SM have BP/CCW/Bolters... Thats right, 3 freekin attacks on the charge back in). Yeah... thats fair.
Some say I'm jumping the gun, I say you haven't been around for as long as I have. This codex is buisness as usual as far as SM are concerned.
Let's not forget that no point costs have been posted.
Yeah, no kidding. Anybody making any comments about power, either positive or negative, isn't thinking straight.
All we have to go on is the imaginativeness of the list (seems good, like they've added a lot), and the known frustrations (I now have 2 Assault Cannon Terms I paid a lot to get an AC for that I can't use).
Overall, I'm impressed with the number of new rules they're putting in. This would appear to be a very thick Codex, with far more options than any other.
As a card carrying member of the Skeptical of Jervis League, I hope this Codex restores my faith in him. Combat Squads (to my understanding at least) has Jeverisprints all over it. I've never had a huge problem with the rule, I just think it's ridiculous when it's not understood for the nerf that it is.
Is it just me, or does voluntary fallback seem absolutely overpowered to me...
I don't know, does it seem overpowered to you?
Yes, it seems a little overpowered, given that I'd be somewhat surprised if they upped the cost on Marines past 15. That point value is so traditional by now... If they upped their cost a bit, I think it'd be more reasonable. ATSKNF is already pretty damn powerful. Letting them use it whenever it's favorable... Thats rough.
That said, I think you're misunderstanding the rule, at least based on the rumor... This isn't "fall back whenever you want." This is "choose to fail a Morale check." So in order to use this, they have to have lost combat. Also, they won't want to use it during their own assault phase. That will just set them up to get charged most of the time (unless another squad keeps the target locked). Finally, even if they opt to use this, they can lose the opposed I check, and get caught before they can flee.
There has got to be an Al Gore joke in there somewhere.
"Mah name is Brother Captain Sicarius. Ah used to be the next Chapter Mastar of the Ultramarains." *applause*
Looking at the variations looking to be available in this codex, as a long time chaos player I feel disappointed.
If the grand plan is for legion specific codices for the chaos legions to match this *special character affecting force org stuff* why couldn't they have said that to take the sting out of receiving codex "tastes likes socks but has a broken power"? When you look at it now it's like comparing plain porridge with chocolate mudcake.
If the legion codices do not make the light of day, its an even sadder day for the abused fanbase.
On topic, more power to the marines for getting something with variation...as opposed to the Dark Angels who've been given the "Take bikes or lose" option. I think we might see a marine "golden age" in the new edition under their new rules as perhaps GW is sick of making their flagship subpar to the xenos.
I too am really wondering if these rumoured new marine rules will be cascading to the earlier codex releases (DA and BA) or if they'll get the short end of the stick again. I know I have a friend who plays DA who is fed up with the codex and now prefers "green marines" over that other crap. (Note: I'm not inferring that the DA codex can't win under 5th edition, just that its variability is severly lacking and hence the enjoyment the owner has in playing).
I see the fething that CSM took hasn't been replicated in the SM book. CSM lose legions, demons, usable defilers, usable dreadnoughts, veteran skills, and good artwork.
What did SM lose? Oh they lost traits. But now they have like 4 new vehicles and a special rule that makes them even better! Because SM needed more special rules!
I want to see SM lose ATSKNF just so I can see a SM squad destroyed in a sweeping advance. You know, like every other army in the game.
And 11 SC's? Why even use normal HQ's anymore when the SC's are better for the points? Hello Kharn and Eldrad, I'm looking at you.
Not to mention that alter the way your army works, unlike regular characters.
I'm sure there are Ravenwing or Deathwing players out there who'd like to go to battle under the wing (no pun intended) of a mighty Dark Angel Chaplain, or perhaps a powerful Dark Angel Librarian, but are forced to go into battle with their damned Company Masters in every single battle they fight. A friend of mine who's been playing Ravenwing in every game he's played recently is sick of bringing Sammael. He wants to bring something else, but can't.
I look forward to all Marine players (save Black Templars, you luck devils!) having to do the same.
Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Also why a slot for MOTF? Is he the leader of the techmarines or one of the chapter captains?
He's the leader of the tech-marines in a codex chapter. Makes a good leader for Iron Hands, too, as they are generally lead by something called an "Iron Father," IIRC.
HBMC, your summary of the design team's nerfing procedure sounds about right. I love the guys, but they overcorrect a lot. And eat really slowly.
Couple of thoughts about the codex, based on some of the other posts I read (not quoting, cause this is an amalgamation of thoughts derived from multiple posts).
About back-compatability with DA, BA, BT, SW (until they get a new book) - when 4th ed C: SM came out, there were PDFs for all of them, back-compatabilitizing things like drop pods. So hopefully its business as usual, or at least business like last time.
About Combat tactics or whatever the breakaway rule thingy is. I can't wait till SM players not paying enough attention force their own troops off the table using this new rule.
Think about it: My orks/death guard engage marine gunline. I win combat. Marines choose to auto-loose fall back. SM out-I both my orks and my plague marines, so odds are they break away, and run 2D6". IIRC, my follow up in 5th ed. is 1D6". Marine player (for sake of argument) rolls an 9 to fall back, I roll a 4 for my consolidation and follow right after him. Marine players turn, he failed to remember that ATSKNF and all its goodness are wholly irrelevant when falling back with an enemy unit within 6", and falls back again. Marine players rolls average to higher than average...BLAMMY! SM tactical squad or other gunline component falls back off the table.
Non-SM player does a little jig, cause you KNOW the SM player has been talking the POOP up about his new rule...
DeathGod wrote:
About Combat tactics or whatever the breakaway rule thingy is. I can't wait till SM players not paying enough attention force their own troops off the table using this new rule.
Think about it: My orks/death guard engage marine gunline. I win combat. Marines choose to auto-loose fall back. SM out-I both my orks and my plague marines, so odds are they break away, and run 2D6". IIRC, my follow up in 5th ed. is 1D6". Marine player (for sake of argument) rolls an 9 to fall back, I roll a 4 for my consolidation and follow right after him. Marine players turn, he failed to remember that ATSKNF and all its goodness are wholly irrelevant when falling back with an enemy unit within 6", and falls back again. Marine players rolls average to higher than average...BLAMMY! SM tactical squad or other gunline component falls back off the table.
Non-SM player does a little jig, cause you KNOW the SM player has been talking the POOP up about his new rule...
And if Marines can rally while within 6" with this new rule?...
Boss_Salvage wrote:New Sicarus now has hair and a beard! *shrugs* go figure!
There has got to be an Al Gore joke in there somewhere.
dietrich wrote:But, it typical GW mode, they screwed up the drop pod. Sure, now there's a kit. But, it's more points. And you can't get two special weapons in a tac squad. So, now that they finally have a model, it'll see a lot less play (assuming the rules are the same).
Well, due to the rumored changes to the power fist rules, combi-weapons on sergeants become viable (assuming they'll be legal), so it's not TOO bad.
Overall, it looks like we traded traits for a LOT of new unit and toys. Considering I never used traits anyway, I'm not fussed about it. My buddy's army (apothecaries and plasma guns in his tac squads) is going to be pretty messed-up, but he'd an avid converter, and has a lot of spare heavy weapons, so I doubt he'll cry too much.
It sounds like at least some traits survive depending on the character you bring. I'm with HBMC the concept of having to bring a character to bring a different force sucketh the big one.
Pariah Press wrote:There has got to be an Al Gore joke in there somewhere.
I thought Al Gore was a joke...???
Anyway... The initial rumours sound really good. But like others, I think I'll reserve judgement until I see the actual codex and the points involved. As for C:CSM and all the gnashing of teeth over it compared to these rumours... Maybe GW intends a power-reversal in the gaming community. CSM were grossly over-powered in comparison to codex SM for a long time. Maybe GW thinks it is time to give the lovin' to the loyalists for an Edition or two... I dunno, just speculation... Anyone heard anything about what this Scout speeder will look like or what it will actually do (transport capability/weapons/options)?
jfrazell wrote:It sounds like at least some traits survive depending on the character you bring. I'm with HBMC the concept of having to bring a character to bring a different force sucketh the big one.
Or you can take special characters only when you want to play a force that deviates from the standard list. Problem solved.
For example, with my Ork Speed Freeks at 1000 points I don't need more bikes than I can get through my Fast Attack Slots and don't need the bikes to get my 2 Troop minimum so I run a Warboss on bike with some upgrades. When I need the bikes as troops then I run him as Wazdakka to change the FoC. He is not Wazdakka in either case, but I use his rules and pay the points for him when I need that FoC modification. Except for the special guns on the bike the Warboss is just as good, and cheaper so that's what I use. Marines will be the same. Assuming the characters modify the FoC as I say below we can easily craft a couple of examples:
Playing White Scars, but you are using some infantry to support your bike horde? Take that Librarian on bike instead of the special character.
Playing Ravenguard, but don't need more than three squads of assault marines? Ignore Shrike and field that Chaplain with jump pack.
Playing Crimson Fists, but don't need a company of Terminators? Skip Lysander and deep strike with your Company Master in Terminator Armor.
I am looking forward to this book and may be turning that Apocalypse Battle Company gathering dust in the basement into Salamanders when this comes out. I can then use all those flamers and meltaguns in my bitz box. Mmmm. Fiery goodness If not maybe Iron Hands depending how good the Master of the Forge is. I still have an Iron Father lying around from when I was planning Iron Hands last year.
That will make 4 marine armies for me and the first to use Codex: Space Marines
I guess my point is there is no need to rush to judgment until we see more concrete rumors, or have the final print in our hands. Wild speculation is half the fun of message boards, but rushing to the doom and gloom conclusions is premature. Not without merit or concern if your army is seemingly crippled, but premature. We have about 6 months until this goes on sale if the timetable remains accurate, so focus on the nice new models until you have something solid to be worried about
Le Grognard wrote:Anyone heard of a release date for this mighty tome?
The original post I think said October, though that seems late to me considering July for 5th ed.
Noisy_Marine wrote:I see the fething that CSM took hasn't been replicated in the SM book. CSM lose legions, demons, usable defilers, usable dreadnoughts, veteran skills, and good artwork.
Defilers becoming not-another-artillery piece makes them unusable?
But good point on the artwork screw, that'll teach Adrian Smith for being the freaking man
i am not saying counts as is neccesarily a bad thing, but i am always a bit iffy on such things, mainly cause i hate eldrad poncing arouund in every eldar army not because of the character but because items ahve specific chapter/craftworld/what ever conotations.
bleugh it probalbly just irritates me cause i am a fluff not.
What i also dislike is havin gto field a character in a specific way to get the rest of my army playing like it had to. Likely enough thee chars will be costly poitns wise... i quite liked my supporting librarin following and covering my bikes squads...
but alas poor Yarrick.... it does not seem i will have as much freedom anymore in normal 1500pts army.
ah well critcism saved for leaky copy or till i steal it off a staffer in store...
Jayden63 wrote:Then we have the lovely voluntary fallback rule. Nothing wrong with disengaging from a fight you may or may not have started, pull out, shoot with your bolt pistols and charge back in using BP/CCW combo (because now all SM have BP/CCW/Bolters... Thats right, 3 freekin attacks on the charge back in). Yeah... thats fair.
Some say I'm jumping the gun, I say you haven't been around for as long as I have. This codex is buisness as usual as far as SM are concerned.
Oh come on… SMs get rules representing greater discipline (ATSKNF and the new fallback rule) while CSMs get rules for being better killers (the extra CCW). It’s a simple variation to reflect the backgrounds of loyalists and traitors.
But accepting that difference means you wouldn’t get to complain on the internet. So you decide that marines must be getting the extra CCW as well, it hasn’t been mentioned anywhere but it’d be really unfair and that means it must be true.
And yeah, I’ve been around long enough to remember the number of times the internet got things horribly, ridiculously wrong. It’s funny that people keep complaining about GW’s overreactions in, well, threads like this.
I don't think an extra attack is an equivalent trade off for not having ATSKNF. I don't think marines should have ATSKNF at all. They'd be fine without it, but then they wouldn't be GW's favorite army. *Gasp*
Noisy_Marine wrote:I don't think an extra attack is an equivalent trade off for not having ATSKNF. I don't think marines should have ATSKNF at all. They'd be fine without it, but then they wouldn't be GW's favorite army. *Gasp*
It was ridiculous in the old days that marines, the Emperor's chosen, his angels of death who shall know no fear, would run away all the time. ATSKNF suits the concept of marines.
At the end of the day I'd prefer ATSNKF over the extra attack as well, but not by a lot, and plenty of people out there have complained long and hard about the extra attack CSMs get.
And yeah, the rule makes marines pretty good, and largely immune to being swept from the field compared to other less disciplined armies. But that's the kind of distinction that makes the different armies different to play against. At the end of the day marines are still perfectly beatable.
It is about time Space Marines got spoiled with a funky new overpowered codex. wait ...
I think it is cool that are making something _new_, finally. Although I would have been more impressed with a third tank chasis, not that Space Marines need it rules-wise.
beast wrote:GW thinks it is time to give the lovin' to the loyalists for an Edition or two
They had the love for the entirety of 3rd edition (hint: rhino rush). Chaos only had the love for part of 4th edition.
And here I was thinking CSM also had Rhinos in 3rd Ed. too... Gee, silly me...
I heard more complaints about red marines and light blue marines than I did for spike marines.
Certainly Red Marines were bada$$ in 3rd, but I can't remember too many times where they were at the top of the heap in GTs or even the RTTs... Loyalist SM were by far the inferior choice when it came to choosing power-armored forces up until about 9 months ago. They just didn't stack up against all the flavors of chaos nastiness that were available in 3rd and most of 4th... But that is of course JMHO...
You probably didn't hear so many complaints about spikey marines cuz almost everyone was playing them. I would be curious to see the stats of armies brought to the major GTs in 3rd and 4th Ed. I am guessing that CSM far outnumbered loyalist SM players (especially in the top tiers).
This new power-reversal (if the rumors turn out to be true) is interesting and begs the question if it is intentional or two separate cases of "overbalancing".
Beast wrote:You probably didn't hear so many complaints about spikey marines cuz almost everyone was playing them. I would be curious to see the stats of armies brought to the major GTs in 3rd and 4th Ed. I am guessing that CSM far outnumbered loyalist SM players (especially in the top tiers).
This new power-reversal (if the rumors turn out to be true) is interesting and begs the question if it is intentional or two separate cases of "overbalancing".
I didn't play a ton of 2nd edition, but I did play a lot of 3rd and 4th edition. Here is how I saw it:
3rd edition was intially about Blood Angels and Space Wolves. The later introduction of Black Templars made for a third option of a rhino rush army. The initial Chaos Codex was trash in comparison to these lists, have a lot of the same problems as the core SM codex. A lot of the people in my area were playing BA, BT or SW if they had a marine army. All the armies were based around the rhino rush.
3.25 edition saw some added flavor through the WD article armies. You now had several versions of BA (Flesh Tearers) and the introduction of legion specific lists. Iron Warriors recieved the basilisk option at this time.
3.5 edition is where Chaos picked up speed and joined the ranks foBA, BT and SW as very effective rhino rush armies. Heavy weapon Iron Warriors also began seeing the light of day. Vanilla SM slipped due to having one of the worst assault oriented armies in the game.
4th edition comes out, nerfs the rhino rush. Chaos deals with this by switching to deamon bomb or more shooty/mobile versions of their lists. BA, BT and SW get nerfed because they don't have options to get around the rhino rush nerf as easily. Most of these armies switch to a Vanilla SM style army. SM Codex comes out and the AC heavy lists start. One could argue that with the AC, SM are on par with CSM.
5th edition appears to be squarely putting CSM below SM in the power balance. IF the Deamon Codex were able to be allies to CSM, I might see it the other way. I think it's no exactly true to paint he picture that CSM has dominated SM for the past 2 editions. I'd say they were on about equal ground till 5th.
You probably didn't hear so many complaints about spikey marines cuz almost everyone was playing them. I would be curious to see the stats of armies brought to the major GTs in 3rd and 4th Ed. I am guessing that CSM far outnumbered loyalist SM players (especially in the top tiers).
I'd say it was because I was too worried about 5 rhinos rushing my lines than IW back in 3rd. But in 4th? Sure, I hate the IW myself.
The lack of two special weapons will mean me never playing 40k again. That makes 50% of the armies I've owned totally poop-chuted by a new codex (Ravenwing, drop pods, nids and tau).
Longshot wrote:The lack of two special weapons will mean me never playing 40k again.
The loss of that second plasma hurts that much? Though it wouldn't be out of hand for it to work like CSM squads, take 10 dudes get access to plasma #2. But ... would it be Codex???
Techboss wrote:
5th edition appears to be squarely putting CSM below SM in the power balance. IF the Deamon Codex were able to be allies to CSM, I might see it the other way. I think it's no exactly true to paint he picture that CSM has dominated SM for the past 2 editions. I'd say they were on about equal ground till 5th.
Absolultely impossible to say with any certainty without seeing the 'dex, though I agree with the rest of your post.
Longshot wrote:
The lack of two special weapons will mean me never playing 40k again. That makes 50% of the armies I've owned totally poop-chuted by a new codex (Ravenwing, drop pods, nids and tau).
Thats slowed. Dont get me wrong I understand your frustration but not playing because you dont like a little bit of a rumoured army list?? BYE!!!
sebster wrote:
And yeah, I’ve been around long enough to remember the number of times the internet got things horribly, ridiculously wrong. It’s funny that people keep complaining about GW’s overreactions in, well, threads like this.
you've hit it square on the head - brilliant. The forum knee jerk-o-meter is off the scale due to people moaning about GWs knee jerk reactions! lol
Thats slowed. Dont get me wrong I understand your frustration but not playing because you dont like a little bit of a rumoured army list?? BYE!!!
I'm guessing he's talking about what he'll do if the rumour turns out to be true. Obviously he isn't going to quit just because the rumour exists.
As for quitting the hobby over a single change, there's a point where you figure enough's enough. I'm not anywhere near that point (fate has been kind to my chosen army), but maybe Longshot is.
Plastic Parody wrote:Thats slowed. Dont get me wrong I understand your frustration but not playing because you dont like a little bit of a rumoured army list?? BYE!!!
As mentioned above, there comes a point in which the player must decide if they want to continue to flow with the game or give GW the figurative finger. I think a lot of people grow tired of constantly having to modify models to make them legal with each edition change. IMO, part of the reason CSM recieved bolter, bolt pistol and CCW is because GW knew they would alienate just about every CSM player on the planet by going only bolter or only bolt pistol and CCW for the CSM player. I must admit that if 1/2 my army was put in the remodel pile, I'd probably straight up quit at this point.
If one decides that they are no longer going to change models, then they either quit or move to the hobbiest side, where painting and a cool looking army is the most important aspect. Based on the 5th edition rumors, I may be moving to this boat as I am tired of changing my army and don't like many of the 5th edition rules.
Techboss wrote:I think a lot of people grow tired of constantly having to modify models to make them legal with each edition change. IMO, part of the reason CSM recieved bolter, bolt pistol and CCW is because GW knew they would alienate just about every CSM player on the planet by going only bolter or only bolt pistol and CCW for the CSM player. I must admit that if 1/2 my army was put in the remodel pile, I'd probably straight up quit at this point.
What is funny is that I'm planning to strip and redo my Marine armies so that each is built to specific modeling standards. It's pretty much the only way I can get to having an all-Beakie army and an all-Templar army.
Techboss wrote:
As mentioned above, there comes a point in which the player must decide if they want to continue to flow with the game or give GW the figurative finger. I think a lot of people grow tired of constantly having to modify models to make them legal with each edition change. IMO, part of the reason CSM recieved bolter, bolt pistol and CCW is because GW knew they would alienate just about every CSM player on the planet by going only bolter or only bolt pistol and CCW for the CSM player. I must admit that if 1/2 my army was put in the remodel pile, I'd probably straight up quit at this point.
I don't understand. Why would the choice between bolter and bolt pistol alienate CSM players of the 3.5 codex?
Plastic Parody wrote:Thats slowed. Dont get me wrong I understand your frustration but not playing because you dont like a little bit of a rumoured army list?? BYE!!!
As mentioned above, there comes a point in which the player must decide if they want to continue to flow with the game or give GW the figurative finger. I think a lot of people grow tired of constantly having to modify models to make them legal with each edition change. IMO, part of the reason CSM recieved bolter, bolt pistol and CCW is because GW knew they would alienate just about every CSM player on the planet by going only bolter or only bolt pistol and CCW for the CSM player. I must admit that if 1/2 my army was put in the remodel pile, I'd probably straight up quit at this point.
If one decides that they are no longer going to change models, then they either quit or move to the hobbiest side, where painting and a cool looking army is the most important aspect. Based on the 5th edition rumors, I may be moving to this boat as I am tired of changing my army and don't like many of the 5th edition rules.
I still dont get why that would make a person stop playing the game. If the specific army changes annoyed me I would change army, not drop the game. Now, if he said he was dropping the game due to poor 5th ed rules AND that the Marine 'dex was the final nail in the coffin fair enough but that wasnt said.
Also am completely and utterly confused at how the bolt pisotl would alienate CSM players????
You know that cliche, "This is the last straw"? Well, from what I gather, Longshot's been burned before by similar changes, and this, if it comes to pass, will be that proverbial last straw.
If CSMs were BP + CCW only, every player with bolter CSMs would have a lot of useless models that would need converting to be WYSIWYG. That's what Techboss meant.
Plastic Parody wrote:Also am completely and utterly confused at how the bolt pisotl would alienate CSM players????
I think what they're saying is the lack of options and the reduction of the Codex would alienate some, if not many, CSM players.
Look at it this way. Player A has a big Khorne army under the old Codex, with lots CSM with Chainswords and Bolt Pistols. Player B has a big Iron Warriors army under the old Codex, with lots of CSM with Bolters.
GW releases a new Codex. It states either:
a - all CSM must be armed with a Bolt Pistol and CCW (which will frustrate Player B, who's already annoyed that his Basilisk is now useless and his entire army's taken a nerf beating); or
b - all CSM must be armed with a Bolter (which will frustrate Player A, who's already annoyed that his Khorne list has lost its Bloodthirsters but gained boring mundane Daemons instead); or
c - all CSM are armed with a Bolt Pistol and CCW (which will placate both A and B, freeing them to concentrate their - justified - bitching on the Codex's other faults).
Of course, another option that would cause less fuss, keep points costs more balanced, and give players more options would be:
d - CSM are armed with a Bolter but may swap this out for a Bolt Pistol and CCW.
But GW don't like options anymore.
EDIT: No, that's not fair. It's not that they don't like options, it's that they don't like individuality. I just realised that. Think about it. Jervis is now telling us how to play the game after years of saying everyone plays it differently. Traits/Craftworlds etc. have gone from Codexes, so armies are more similar. Their argument is that you can make changes by taking Special Characters - but again, that just reinforces the sameness of those armies. Every Raven Guard army has Shrike in it, for example. It's taking away the uniqueness of certain armies.
And it's not just gaming they're doing this to. Some gamers have been pissed off with GW for a long while for their shoddy rules-writing. Now GW are trying to piss off the 'hobbyist' too. With the removal of Bitz, conversions (and thus unique armies) have become much more difficult (almost impossible if it wasn't for eBay, the Warstore, etc.). Armies therefore will become much more 'straight-out-of-the-packet' with little or no variation between two of the same type.
Plastic Parody wrote:I still dont get why that would make a person stop playing the game. If the specific army changes annoyed me I would change army, not drop the game.
Everyone forgot to mention that constantly changing armies or re-modelling options takes time and money. You also can't discount the work and effort that went into a fully painted army, only to have to be "stripped" or remodelled again. For some people, that's extremely frustrating.
Plastic Parody wrote:
If the specific army changes annoyed me I would change army, not drop the game.
Spoken like a true comsumer. Congrats... You have just towed the GW line.
But on to the subject.... The rumors sound pretty cool. I think I may need some dreads! I hope there will be some fun trait-like abilities conferred by the chapter masters. How much do you want to bet all the chapter masters will have $20 models?
Especially on how Librarians and Psychics are going to be handled?
(YES, some things needed to be adjusted, but overall I was very happy with SM psykers.)
Seeing as Jervis is at the helm, and 5th is the new 3rd, I expect a very lame Psychic Phase this time around, but I am hoping to be pleasantly surprised and/or happy...
Green Blow Fly wrote:You can always play BT if you don't like the new rules.
G
Please dear Emperor, no! I don't want any power gaming whiners to come over to the black and white panoply of Sigismund's crusaders. I already had to survive through all of the jackapes playing my beloved Templars under Armegeddon.
Look, the eternal optimist in me wishes it would be better. Wishes that Vanilla Marine Librarians would have access to Iron Halos like commanders... but they won't.
Really, just take all the non-Chapter specific stuff from the DA and BA 'Dexes, throw Scouts into Troops, make 'em WS3 and BS3, add a new Land Raider, maybe a new Speeder, and bingo - new Marine Codex.
Nah, they'll still be better. Maybe Loyalists will get men who are possessed by... the power of the Space Emperor! And they'll have (non-random) abilities that they can buy. They'll be awesome.
Alpharius wrote:Ugh.
That's exactly what I was afraid of...
Oh well!
Can't wait for 6th then!
Wow, way to take someone's smartalecky answer for gospel. I don't understand why people like you and stelek and HBMC even bother with the game since it obviously causes you nothing but grief which you guys then feel necessary to burden everyone else with. Not everyone agrees with you and almost no one likes the negative attitude.
Not sure where you getting that doom and gloom from, though your response certainly wasn't a ray of sunshine either.
Now, I was being a bit dramatic, but you certainly don't have to be an accomplished reader of the Emperor's Tarot to see which way the wind is blowing, do you?
Or maybe you do?
Seriously though, I think H.M.B.C.'s observations/guesses are probably going to be spot on.
I hadn't paid much attention to how HQ choices were handled in the DA and BA mini-codices, but that probably is where we're headed, don't you think?
neofright wrote:I don't understand why people like you and stelek and HBMC even bother with the game since it obviously causes you nothing but grief which you guys then feel necessary to burden everyone else with. Not everyone agrees with you and almost no one likes the negative attitude.
Hey don't lump me in with Stelek. I'm nothing like him. Everyone knows about the 8 games of 40K I win before breakfast every morning so I don't have to go around bragging to everyone about it.
I also have a sense of humour, something you seem to be lacking. Enough with the negative attitude!
Alpharius wrote:Ugh.
That's exactly what I was afraid of...
Oh well!
Can't wait for 6th then!
Wow, way to take someone's smartalecky answer for gospel. I don't understand why people like you and stelek and HBMC even bother with the game since it obviously causes you nothing but grief which you guys then feel necessary to burden everyone else with. Not everyone agrees with you and almost no one likes the negative attitude.
Quoted for truth.
Oh, and you forgot Fred Flinstone, Aba-doobie-dobie-whomever.
Personally, I love the negative attitude, provided it's expressed in a humorous fashion, something which HBMC and Abadabadoobaddon manage to achieve on a regular basis. Can't we all just lay off each other and go back to discussing Warhams?
Yeah seriously. A relentlessly positive attitude is pretty much the same as a negative one. No need to go for personal attacks.
Though it often provokes humourous responses I suppose, so maybe you should.
It is no more of a personal attack than saying "Jervis is an idiot" or "your opponents are idiots" or something along those lines.
HBMC - I will give you credit that you do make me laugh on occasion. :-)
The thing that bums me out about all of the bitching is that I used to send my friends who were interested in getting into the game over here and warseer because there was cool interesting discussion. I have had to stop that because 2 people have decided not to play after reading all the negativity. Which is really a drag, because most of the games are fun, most of the players are cool, even the bitchy poster ones who just seem to have some bizarre digital pms when it comes to posting.
Back on topic, saw 3 different CSM lists that played in absolutely different but effective ways, with what some call a boring, optionless list.
I have high hopes that something similar will be possible with Vanilla marines - fewer options that no one takes and more different ways to win, which is ultimately what it comes down to.
The speeder transport in particular seems like a really cool concept. I am not a fan of special characters, so will probably be disappointed by a dearth of non-named HQ choices...
Comedy gold...
I can then use all those flamers and meltaguns in my bitz box. Mmmm. Fiery goodness