This was brought up on the Tau Online forums, and it set me thinking. Are the Chaos Gods really evil, or is this a misconception based on their followers? As they are created by cumulating emotions, maybe this could change them? Maybe Khorne was/is a god of honour and martial prowess rather than a maniac who wants to kill anyone. Maybe Slaanesh is a god of love and passion rather than decadence and depravity. I see this as being a strong probability of what the gods really are.

Go on, flame away.

Certainly interesting, but not an option for me personally.

Khorne is a maniac to be frank, otherwise, why would he/ the chaos gift his zerkers with all kings of deamonic gubbins if he did not enjoy what he was seeing. Hacking people apart for the joy of it as nothing to do with honour . . .

And what would Nurgle represent? The god of disease. I dont see any good coming from that direction either.

Slaanesh, yeah maybe, love, maybe some passion. Wait, arising to deamonhood through pleasure?! Noice.

I guess it depends on your standpoint. I for one do think the chaos gods are a bunch of crazed weirdos. Which makes them that much more likeable.

Nurgle, as was stated in the 3rd edition CSM 'dex, is ultimately the god of rebirth. His plagues devastate worlds, but not to the point of annihilation. If it's dead, it's dead, but people can recover from disease. Like I said, the gods, being born from emotions, may be influenced by them. What if there's a whole 'fallen angel' thing going on with them and the daemons?
And Tzeench never seemed evil to me, just an endless schemer. Like a god of what to do when you're bored.

You have two viewpoints:
1. The ruinous powers also encompass these other emotions. Tzeentch is hope for example. Old RT guys will cite a more balanced view, with sorceror’s who’s footsteps magically generate flowers for example. If Khorne is the maniac, he’s also the father protecting his family from an intruder, for example.

2. An alternative is that there are other powers in the warp. The Imperium is dealing with the impact of the four ruinous powers because they have it in for humanity to an extent and are well, chaotic. However there may be other powers more representative of this. This is referenced by Malal specifically, and fluff about lesser powers. Plus we have the eldar warp beings and the true masters of the warp-Gork and Mork (seriously no one screws with the GM boyz in the ethereal plane). Indeed the Demon codex notes the captive eldar goddess of nature. There’s no reason there would not be one generated from human emotion as well.

Either works. I like the concept of “Lords of Law” also warring in warpspace vs. the Ruinous Powers, and can explain why Chaos gets support and then doesn’t (the ruinous powers are fighting on two fronts as it were). But that’s all personal fluff and a great way to theme/convert a force.

OTT but that is most godawful avatar. Its perfect for Dakka…

Well Khorne and Khain are actully the same guy, he had 2 sides to a god. Khaine was the good side Khorne was the bad one. But they all come from emotions, are emotions evil?

The Chaos Gods aren't evil. my definition of evil is as follows: "To be truely evil you must acknowledge the right thing to do in a situation, and then do copletely the oposite"

the Chaos Gods are just driven by the thoughts of others in retrospect. Therefore can't know right from wrong, they just do what they were made for-the embodyment of emotions. Other races made them and they just do what they do accordingly.
they aren't good or evil, meerly being that have always acted the way they do, for they have no other way to act

I think the chaos gods are much more interesting when they have negative and positive aspects. So I vote for the RT era chaos gods.

This is something I've been thinking about for a long time actually. I think the Chaos Gods are all good guys. Some Space Marines heard their calls though, but those calls weren't evil. They were "The emperor, the man you worship, is a fraud. He is disabled/dead and being used as a puppet by the empire". The Marines that heeded this, in the eyes of other Space Marines, are heretics and villains. But in their eyes they are reformers. The Chaos Gods are demonized, to make them seem unappealing. The weird thing is is that GW will not embrace this view. The Chaos Space Marines are not the bad guys in their own eyes (or mine either for that matter). The descriptions of all the units and the Chaos Gods in Codex: Chaos Space Marines is what I imagine every person in the empire is told about them. In their own eyes they have simply shrugged off useless and oppressive military practices and worship or a false god/dead god emperor, asked for the glorious gifts of their gods to help them in combat against those who are not as enlightened as they.

Well a famous IG said this.
"You know guys. Chaos isn't so bad"
Kinda expalins it all.

Chaos is selfishness pure.That's evil.
Horus has fought for a lie.
To act without restrictions is not freedom,its Terror.
CSM exchanged duty and service with Hatred and greed.
Nothing positive in it to me.

Space_hoppo wrote:Well a famous IG said this.
"You know guys. Chaos isn't so bad"
Kinda expalins it all.

And you trust an Imperial Monkey? Remember many 'famous' Imperial chaps say stuff all the time, like the Emp is a God, doesn't mean it's so.

I would trust an Imperial Monkey with my life! With that macho las gun you have to believe anything they say.

Lasguns Macho? Under enthused snotlings armed with Daffodils are more Macho!

Now let me pose the question, if Chaos were good why havent they and either the Tau or Eldar created some form of alliance yet? In order to kill those who are evil

because they are not good either they are neutral.

Honestly, can anyone really be Neutral in the 40K universe, GW wouldn't let them. people like playing either good or evil, not the neutral bystanders

Well Chaos are slightly evil, but slightly good as well.

1hadhq wrote:Chaos is selfishness pure.That's evil.
Horus has fought for a lie.
To act without restrictions is not freedom,its Terror.
CSM exchanged duty and service with Hatred and greed.
Nothing positive in it to me.

And this is what I'd imagine an imperial citizen to say about Chaos, because he has been brainwashed about the subject through his upbringing.

Chaos isn't selfish. It wants only for all people to have the freedom to be enlightened to what is truly happening behind the scenes.
Horus fought and sacrificed him for what is truly right.
To act without restrictions is freedom.
CSM sacrificed duty and service with honor and humility.

They may be the ones wearing black and more skulls, but their "OMG! DEMS GUYZ IS EVIL!" appearance doesn't make them evil.

So wnating to enslave the galaxy to their eternal whims is good in what way? The last time I checked dictators were bad people who did bad things. Hitler and Mugabe spring to mind. Or do you mean when they take over it'll be free cookies for everyone! yay!

And your saying the Imperium hasnt enslaved the galaxy?

Storm Lord wrote:So wnating to enslave the galaxy to their eternal whims is good in what way? The last time I checked dictators were bad people who did bad things. Hitler and Mugabe spring to mind. Or do you mean when they take over it'll be free cookies for everyone! yay!

[[Image:Cookie]]

When the CSMs win, they will break the bonds of a disabled/dead God King who is being used as a puppet figure head for a few people at the top to get ahead of everyone else. Yeah, there may also be cookies...

But in the process become like that themselves. CSM have human emotions still, and some will wish domination, and some Gods like Khorne or Tzeentch will help them get that, and the cycle starts again

So does the Imperium. Thousands die everyday to feed the emporor, the Inquistitaion is simialr to the Gestapo from Nazi germany. And all palnets have to give up money people and food for the 'Good of the Imperium'

So why bother with the Transfer to Chaos domination, if as you've just helped point out are as evil as the Imperium, nothing changes, therefore chaos is evil.

Storm Lord wrote:So why bother with the Transfer to Chaos domination, if as you've just helped point out are as evil as the Imperium, nothing changes, therefore chaos is evil.

Because it wouldn't be the same. Imagining that the Chaos Gods want to be in power to just slaughter everyone is ridiculous. They would have temples and expect worship just like the emperor but they wouldn't want full and utter devotion like he does. They aren't as 'evil' as the Imperium. Their rule would be a lot better, if not as organized, as the Imperium's.

Typeline wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Chaos is selfishness pure.That's evil.
Horus has fought for a lie.
To act without restrictions is not freedom,its Terror.
CSM exchanged duty and service with Hatred and greed.
Nothing positive in it to me.

And this is what I'd imagine an imperial citizen to say about Chaos, because he has been brainwashed about the subject through his upbringing.

Chaos isn't selfish. It wants only for all people to have the freedom to be enlightened to what is truly happening behind the scenes.

Truth by tzeentch???

Horus fought and sacrificed him for what is truly right.

A man,full of woe about his deeds not remembered???

To act without restrictions is freedom.

be tfg at wh40k is freedom ????

CSM sacrificed duty and service with honor and humility.

The honor to be enslaved,the humility to be tortured???

No false emperor,no brainwash,simple read the whole fluff.

They may be the ones wearing black and more skulls, but their "OMG! DEMS GUYZ IS EVIL!" appearance doesn't make them evil.

I struggle with the idea they wouldn't demand complete/exact worship. I can't imagine them being happy if the Emp was still worshiped for example. Also the Emp doesn't demand worship, he denied it and abolished it whilst he was still alive, someone else gave them that impression.

well they need worship. Mainly because khorne wants rage of having to worship but Tzeench wants hope of not worshipping. So they have to be together to be happy.

Typeline wrote:Chaos is selfishness pure.That's evil.
Horus has fought for a lie.
To act without restrictions is not freedom,its Terror.
CSM exchanged duty and service with Hatred and greed.
Nothing positive in it to me.

And this is what I'd imagine an imperial citizen to say about Chaos, because he has been brainwashed about the subject through his upbringing.

Chaos isn't selfish. It wants only for all people to have the freedom to be enlightened to what is truly happening behind the scenes.

Truth by tzeentch???

Horus fought and sacrificed him for what is truly right.

A man,full of woe about his deeds not remembered???

To act without restrictions is freedom.

be tfg at wh40k is freedom ????

CSM sacrificed duty and service with honor and humility.

The honor to be enslaved,the humility to be tortured???

No false emperor,no brainwash,simple read the whole fluff.

They may be the ones wearing black and more skulls, but their "OMG! DEMS GUYZ IS EVIL!" appearance doesn't make them evil.

Space_hoppo wrote:So does the Imperium. Thousands die everyday to feed the emporor, the Inquistitaion is simialr to the Gestapo from Nazi germany. And all palnets have to give up money people and food for the 'Good of the Imperium'

Compare 40k inq with inq of 16th century to be right,not gestapo!
Taxes are Normal in great imperia.

But taking poor people to be feed to the emporor? does the queen eat human brains for lunch?

Space_hoppo wrote:But taking poor people to be feed to the emporor? does the queen eat human brains for lunch?

I don't know the queen's lunch,but I guess the energy of psykers is not the emperors Lunch.
Psi-energy is used to uphold the astronomican and to seal the (Mankind made) webway portal at terra.
Even malcador,a psyker of great power,made only a short time this job and was totally exhausted and died.

I hate black and white classification. I don't think any of the forces can be pegged as good or evil except for the Dark Eldar who are definately evil incarnate.

How is this? Let's go through it...

Imperium: Good- They're the main 'good guys' of the 40k Universe, fighting to protect most of the galaxy from, well, the rest of the galaxy. Bad- The Inquisition is crazy off the charts, killing hundreds of thousands of people and going Salem Witch Trials on everyone's behinds. Exterminatus anyone? They still kill off thousands of xenos every day just because half crazy priests and a single man, the Emperor, say so.

Chaos: Good- As stated before they may symbolize more divine things, just a little warped in appearance from the Eye of Terror. They fight simply to survive and keep their heads above the rest, just like the Imperium. Bad- Also stated, they can be seen as monsters, feeding on the life of the Universe. Striking out at planets from their little void, and worshipping gods who stand for everything less than pristine.

Tau fights for the greater good, but they still want to conquer the universe.

Eldar fight to survive, but they seem to see the Imperium as a foolish lie and are less than happy with it.

Necrons... well... actually they're pretty much selfish bad guys too.

Tyranids are a little harder to explain, they are mindless, if that's an excuse, and are bred to destroy for that is all they have ever known, they must feed like all of us, and they must ensure their races thriving

Orks are pretty bad, but they're a lot like the Imperium, day fight for waz dere's!


So there.

I must agree with Ebullient and as he said there is no black or white answer here. But we must know that Chaos are far from good, but they are far from pure evil too. So in a way Chaos are good, but they are also bad. They feed off humans, do not forget everything in the Universe is only as flawed as we make it out to be, other wise its fine.

Someone said that Khaine was the good side of Khorne. Good gods don't murder someone because they're popular. (Eldanesh)
The way I see it, it's the Imperium that's truly evil. The Emperor is just a hollow psychic shell with no sentience any more, and the High Lords of Terra are the true rulers of the Imperium.
Khorne embodies honour, courage, and defending the weak.
Nurgle embodies the cycle of life, death, and rebirth.
Slaanesh embodies passion and love.
Tzeench embodies evolution, hope, and wisdom.

Unfortunately that’s not how the books portray the Ruinous Powers. I’m citing the Demon codex predominantly. The ruinous powers are expressed predominantly as having bad intent. Nurgle is the easiest example. While in some twisted way Nurgle may be about the please for immortality or surviving a plague, Nurgle’s fluff is all about making said plagues. Indeed this is a counterpoint to the Eldar goddess deal-whispering secret antidotes to the mortal world.

1. Why would ruinous powers constantly seek to destroy humanity? They have other fish to fry if they get bored with each other.

2. The fluff on the positive aspects are so insignificant as to be invisible. Where is man’s better nature, even at a basic level? All the prayers for healing do not logically go to the guy who is creating the illnesses.

If you’re going to reflect the Ruinous Powers as representing everything, then they need to actually represent everything, not just we’re icky killy and after your babies for our sacrifices. That doesn’t work.

40K has always been or has been retconned into the warp entities being basically bad guys, comic styled misrepresentations of ‘the bad parts” of the underworld.

@Cheese Elemental. I said that about Khorne and Khaine. The Chaos Gods do help the people who serve them in one way. Khorne helps by getting rid of the weak so the strong survive and pass on there genes to a stronger generation. Nurgle is about rebirth as where ever there is death there is also decay, while people who follow nurgle are never hurt or in pain. Tzeentch is about peoples hope, people who follow Tzeench get to know the truth about things. And as for Slaanesh he's about the pleasure that can be found in the world.
All of this doesn't mean that they are all goody two shoes, but they arn't extremely pure evil as everyone says.

Can the Chaos gods think for themselves? being made of emotions surely they are driven purely by tham, not their own thinking?

They do think for themselves, i think so. I mean Tzeench plays us like a chess board.

Chaos is intrinsically evil. They represent human emotion, but they represent it at it's total absolute control.

Emotions are not evil, they are a byproduct of our conscience. But where good and evil separate are our own choices and our actions.

Chaos gods represent the worst of our emotional states, and to surrender to them is to surrender to the worst that humanity has to offer.

Khorne is rage incarnate, his followers are constantly seeking to kill and maim for a realease of that emotion but it never comes.

Slaneesh is perversion and lust, his followers seek to be satisfied by pleasure but it never comes.

Nurgle is decay, his followers wish to spread illness and sickness, forever cursed to be sickly.

Tzeentch is manipulation and lies, his followers seek forbidden knowledge that will damn them upon discover.

Chaos represents enslavement, enslavement to the baser nature of our selves.

There is a point where enjoyment becomes dependence.

Well said Mahu, and all excellent points.

I'd just like to point out that Khaine was created by the Eldar, and was a good guy. Then, when he defeated The Nightbringer, the C'tan shattered, er something like that, and corrupted Khaine, driving him into the evil killing machine that The Nightbringer is. That's if I have my reading right.

Yeah, Khaines dark side is Khorne, the both do the same job, just in different ways.

Nono, Slaanesh captured Khaine and Khorne wanted him freed, and the former and the latter fought each other and in the mess of it all Khaine was shattered. A shard of his body was given to every craftworld so that the Eldar could summon the avatar.
I do feel that Chaos is really misportrayed. GW insists on everything being seen in black and white, not shades of grey.

OTT but has Khaine kicked anyone's posterior motive? Slaanesh and Khorne took him down. I believe he lost a fight with nightbringer. Was he always a cheese eating girly eldar?

No. he did have some sucsesses, look at the Eldars version of the war in the heavens. When he nearly (or at least tried to) destroy the Eldar race, paranoid about soemone who would kill him or soemthing.

Besides, back in the day of himvs Nightbringer nothing ahd killed the Nightbringer before, and it took lots of effort to. it was only doing that which made him lose it a bit.

besides, with Khorne vs Slaanesh can you really expect a god whose race is all but dead to be that strong? Not really. So he isn't a chees eating girly eldar. Chees gives him nightmares

Yeah he saw that he would lose to a mortal so he went around killing all the mortals he could find i.e. eldar. he killed the Nightbringer and he became a slightly darker person.
And he was too strong to be beaten by Slaanesh but too weak to kill him, so instead of battling for all eternity he decided to split himself into avatars to help the poo eldar race.

did you mean to leave the 'r' off poor? either way the sentence still makes sense but with a whole different meaning.

And he didn't kill the nightbringer...just broke him for a while...

nope, but it was late and night and i was too tired to check. He felt sorry for the Eldar so he split his soul up.

so khaine shared himself with every eldargroup ? Now hes angry all the time (burns from within), his eldar didn't get
the way he wanted them to act. They call him forth every single "oh we just screwed it" time to rescue their little

Pretty much, but he's a god of war, it keeps him occupied i guess.

What else would they use him for if not that? A tea maid? its the only way for him too be of any use to the Eldar so i don't see him complaining about it. Even if in most books and DoW his avatar dies all the time...

Storm Lord wrote:What else would they use him for if not that? A tea maid? its the only way for him too be of any use to the Eldar so i don't see him complaining about it. Even if in most books and DoW his avatar dies all the time...

Have the eldar endless numbers of their Avatar? They must sacrifice a warrior to activate him,but all i know this Avatar sits somewhere inactiv until hes needed.

The avatar sits in the core of the Craftworld and someone is killed to summon it. So if you beat the Avatar (use a fire engine in place of a tank). and lock the Avatar core in a box, he cannot be re-made, but the Eldar will haunt you until its returned to his home.

Space_hoppo wrote:The avatar sits in the core of the Craftworld and someone is killed to summon it. So if you beat the Avatar (use a fire engine in place of a tank). and lock the Avatar core in a box, he cannot be re-made, but the Eldar will haunt you until its returned to his home.

If my tac-marines bolted him down (in DoW) he never returns....

Mneh works for me, personally i send in termies to hammer its brains in, chaplins work surprisingly well against it

Let's not forget that awesome sync kill Librarians and Sorcerers can do on him. The Bloodthirster killing him looks awesome too.

Khaine fought Slaanesh, the newly-awakened Chaos god of pleasure and passion sometime after Slaanesh's awakening in the 29th millennium (Imperial Calendar). Khaine being a god of war could not be defeated in battle. But Slaanesh was still much stronger than the Eldar god thus creating a stalemate where neither could win. Khorne the Blood God, patron of war and murder wanted to absorb Khaine for his on purposes and made an offer to Khaine. During the struggle, Khaine realized he couldn't escape from either being and so divided his spiritual essence into the hearts of the craftworlds, the dread Avatars of Khaine are the mere splinters of the ancient war god that can be called upon by a sacrifice of an Exarch who is chosen to be the Young King who are then absorbed by the essence, thus becoming the Avatar of Khaine wielding the might of the War God himself.

That's from the Lexicanum.

Khaine is not chaos,means that there can other "Gods" exist and it is not necessary to lead
followers to their doom. We should divide between Chaos and lifeforms from warpspace.
To me chaos is the 4 ruinous powers and their minor deities plus any attached demon.

Chaos is what comes from control

Space_hoppo wrote:Chaos is what comes from control

chaos exists on the absence of self-control.

a small mind is easy to fill

Correction, a small mind is easy to fill with doubt.

Space_hoppo wrote:Correction, a small mind is easy to fill with doubt.

But doubt can be replaced with faith.

A small mind cannot be easily filled or it'll forget how to listen and be able to take nothing more in. As for faith, isn't that normally what they doubt? Does that make it a safe alternative therefore?

Faith without doubt is only stupidity. A small mind has to choose between knowledge and ignorance.
If going ignorant, youre easy prey for cultists.

As if you choose Knowledge, thats the reason many Inqisitors go rouge, to much knowledge on the enemy and they realise they're better off on the Chaos side. In other words: "Your damned if you do, and damned if you don't"

Who choose chaos has only partial knowledge.

Fully realized what chaos is gets nobody to follow. Why should someone praise a bunch of emotions as god?

Never were any dreams fulfilled by chaos, it produces false hopes to lure you to your own destruction.

And what of the Traitor Primarchs, the Daemon ones got what they wnated, power and lots of it, not having to fight for an Emporer they thought didn't care. So some people do get dreams fuffilled. Even if everyone doesn't

Storm Lord wrote:And what of the Traitor Primarchs, the Daemon ones got what they wanted, power and lots of it, not having to fight for an Emporer they thought didn't care. So some people do get dreams fuffilled. Even if everyone doesn't

They dreamt of beeing an ugly demon,sitting at a crazy demon world ?

If stayed loyal and conquering the galaxy they have fared better.

No, they wanted power, and they got that in abundance, they don't use it in the Material realm though. To own your own planet and rule it is a dream many people have at some time in their lives-they had it fuffilled.

And would they have benefitted by staying Loyal? Once the Galaxy was humanities then what would they have done? Its hard to imagine them getting a normal job

Storm Lord wrote:No, they wanted power, and they got that in abundance, they don't use it in the Material realm though. To own your own planet and rule it is a dream many people have at some time in their lives-they had it fuffilled.

And got bored with,so they return to the material plane for action and fun.

And would they have benefitted by staying Loyal? Once the Galaxy was humanities then what would they have done? Its hard to imagine them getting a normal job

Surely had they benefitted.
As a part of the emperors geneseed,the primarchs and their legions were most powerful when combined.
The only chance to win this galaxy has been thrown away and there are more other galaxys in a
universe to claim. For personal glory,some primarchs ruined the crusade,mankinds future and their legions.


Really a great achievement.

Typeline wrote:

Storm Lord wrote:So why bother with the Transfer to Chaos domination, if as you've just helped point out are as evil as the Imperium, nothing changes, therefore chaos is evil.

Because it wouldn't be the same. Imagining that the Chaos Gods want to be in power to just slaughter everyone is ridiculous. They would have temples and expect worship just like the emperor but they wouldn't want full and utter devotion like he does. They aren't as 'evil' as the Imperium. Their rule would be a lot better, if not as organized, as the Imperium's.

...Somebody is getting mindscrubbed...

And the notion that Chaos just wants to destroy everything is hardly ridiculous. They're are representations of wanton and reckless emotion, irrationality writ cosmic. Self-destruction is hardly something so uncommon to the emotionally unstable. I actually really like that aspect of the fluff.

1hadhq wrote:
And got bored with,so they return to the material plane for action and fun.

As far as I can remember only Angron has left the warp since becoming a Daemon Prince, the others have all stayed put. So That doesn't quite work in some respects

Storm Lord wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
And got bored with,so they return to the material plane for action and fun.

As far as I can remember only Angron has left the warp since becoming a Daemon Prince, the others have all stayed put. So That doesn't quite work in some respects

You can count them down:

1. Perturabo - never so moving around,sat in fortresses and breeds on plans. Now he does the same on medrengard.

2. Fulgrim - no more own will,he's downgraded to a puppet.His master as a demon is probably happy in the warp.

3. Mortarion - any action since HH anywhere noticed? Can be everything,active or dead,
who knows?

4. Kurze - is dead for sure.

5. Lorgar - sits in his scriptorium and is lost to work at new books.You wouldn't get him moving from his work.

6. Alpharius and Omegon - one may be dead but theAL never went to the warp,their
primarch could have stayed hided between his marines.

7. Magnus - why should this warp-scholar leave the warp? The only try of him was stalled
by ragnar blackmane from the SW.

8.Angron - as mentioned has attacked armageddon but was driven back even with his
mightiest demons accompanying him by the GK.

9.Horus - gave the emperor no choice as to kill him.


Result: 2 not moving, 2 dead, 2 tried but got beaten, 1 is as demon not interested,1 never entered warp , makes only 1 unknown.
IMHO 2 may try again and what the last one is to do ? :S

The warp is not boring? To much change is more than

It can't be that boring, or the Chaos Gods would have gone insane (or more so) by now, as would everyone who's in it. Such a multitude of interesting people too meet and planets to see

the chaos "gods" are already insane!

Nothing they do is sane. To sit on skulls or play miraculix,go full holiday or fumble with others fate is not
a interesting hobby, not a bit entertaining. They would not mess with others lifes if they had enough fun in warpspace.

Then too all the Warp occupants the Chaos Gods are completely sane then. And sure they would mess with others anyway. I know I would. Hell, I already do to an extent, just not from Warp space. (For obvious reasons)

Warpspace needs order and a big sanitarium then most.

The old ones should have been more careful before letting the warp on the Loose.

Now, unruled Chaos runs wild at conquest for Power.
:S

The only good side of the Warp is his travelling use.
But Chaos? Good?

The chaos gods are base emotions in their rawest forms. They are not restrained in any way and only seek to make all being submit to their whims.

So in the sense that a man should not fully submit to any base instinct whole heartedly, yeah...they're evil. Evil in the way any obsession with one...passion (I suppose)... will probably lead to evil.

Okay, so the Night Lord primarch, IIRC, was obsessed with (vigilante) justice, the obsession turned something that could be good into something horribly twisted. But it's not because of the interpretation by Curze, it was the pure unadulturated drive for 'justice' wasn't tempered by anything.

Change isn't that bad, but when it's the sole obession of a god or being, it's evil.

Passion tempered by prudence, okay. But when in it's purest form, it only leads to f'd up desires of the most extreme kind.

So yeah. evil.

That isn't to say the Emperor isn't evil...it just isn't focused enough to be as bad as the chaos gods.

1hadhq wrote:
The old ones should have been more careful before letting the warp on the Loose.

Now, unruled Chaos runs wild at conquest for Power.
:S

The Old ones aren't to blame, the orks and Eldar are, it's their fault the warp became what it is today. the old ones maintained it and kept it clean. Only the pains of the 'younger races' of the time way back when, that caused the Chaos Gods and enslaver plauges that killed the Old ones and so stopped the warp being kept safe.

Cheese Elemental wrote:This was brought up on the Tau Online forums, and it set me thinking. Are the Chaos Gods really evil, or is this a misconception based on their followers? As they are created by cumulating emotions, maybe this could change them? Maybe Khorne was/is a god of honour and martial prowess rather than a maniac who wants to kill anyone. Maybe Slaanesh is a god of love and passion rather than decadence and depravity. I see this as being a strong probability of what the gods really are.

Go on, flame away.

The chaos god are a manifestation of emotions but are twisted by the warp and by emotions of pure hate or manipulation.

Storm Lord wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
The old ones should have been more careful before letting the warp on the Loose.

Now, unruled Chaos runs wild at conquest for Power.
:S

The Old ones aren't to blame, the orks and Eldar are, it's their fault the warp became what it is today. the old ones maintained it and kept it clean. Only the pains of the 'younger races' of the time way back when, that caused the Chaos Gods and enslaver plauges that killed the Old ones and so stopped the warp being kept safe.

The eldar (obsessed by interest ) and krork (obsessed with battlelust) may be guilty of
polluting the Warp . But the old ones coached these races. When a trainee acts, those in
charge should watch careful.So the old ones screwed their work with too complex plans.

Typeline wrote:

Storm Lord wrote:So why bother with the Transfer to Chaos domination, if as you've just helped point out are as evil as the Imperium, nothing changes, therefore chaos is evil.

Because it wouldn't be the same. Imagining that the Chaos Gods want to be in power to just slaughter everyone is ridiculous. They would have temples and expect worship just like the emperor but they wouldn't want full and utter devotion like he does. They aren't as 'evil' as the Imperium. Their rule would be a lot better, if not as organized, as the Imperium's.

When the emperor was "alive" so to speak he did not demand everyone think of him as a god or worship him. He saw the Great Crusade as a way of uniting all humans in the galaxy, what he did NOT want was to replace the human leaders who opposed him (that he viewed as tyrants) with another figurehead. Basically, he did not want to replace one tyrant with another. This is why the Space Marines do not think of the emperor as a god, but a great warrior and leader of men (as far as I have read).

I agree though that things are much more shades of grey than true black or white. The Imperium has become quite decadent with the absence of the emperor and has resorted to extreme measures to keep the relative balance of things (such as the Inquisition). Basically I think the Imperium is quite misguided and being abused by the higher ups pulling the strings.

As for Chaos...I can't find any reason as to why they are good. Each Chaos god represents a single emotion that, while not necessarily "evil", is taken to the most extreme measures. They may border more on neutral/evil...but good...IMO I just can't see anyway of justifying they are good. The CSM might see it that way (40K is all perception, just like real life). The CSM may think they are fighting for the right thing but their view is warped, they are trying to justify evil actions.

All that said, I don't think the Imperium is "good" either...or any 40K race for that matter. It is all perspective.

Dendarien wrote:

Typeline wrote:

Storm Lord wrote:So why bother with the Transfer to Chaos domination, if as you've just helped point out are as evil as the Imperium, nothing changes, therefore chaos is evil.

Because it wouldn't be the same. Imagining that the Chaos Gods want to be in power to just slaughter everyone is ridiculous. They would have temples and expect worship just like the emperor but they wouldn't want full and utter devotion like he does. They aren't as 'evil' as the Imperium. Their rule would be a lot better, if not as organized, as the Imperium's.

When the emperor was "alive" so to speak he did not demand everyone think of him as a god or worship him. He saw the Great Crusade as a way of uniting all humans in the galaxy, what he did NOT want was to replace the human leaders who opposed him (that he viewed as tyrants) with another figurehead. Basically, he did not want to replace one tyrant with another. This is why the Space Marines do not think of the emperor as a god, but a great warrior and leader of men (as far as I have read).

I agree though that things are much more shades of grey than true black or white. The Imperium has become quite decadent with the absence of the emperor and has resorted to extreme measures to keep the relative balance of things (such as the Inquisition). Basically I think the Imperium is quite misguided and being abused by the higher ups pulling the strings.

As for Chaos...I can't find any reason as to why they are good. Each Chaos god represents a single emotion that, while not necessarily "evil", is taken to the most extreme measures. They may border more on neutral/evil...but good...IMO I just can't see anyway of justifying they are good. The CSM might see it that way (40K is all perception, just like real life). The CSM may think they are fighting for the right thing but their view is warped, they are trying to justify evil actions.

All that said, I don't think the Imperium is "good" either...or any 40K race for that matter. It is all perspective.

But can we really classify something as evil at all if we cannot find a viable example of good? If we are grading the 40k universe on a curve it seems to me that they all get between a C+ and C-. Unless of course you believe in the so called "Greater Good" (go Tau!!!) which once again is subject to prospective.

And how the do we get this deep into phylosophy when it comes too a game??? I mean come on here?!?!?!

1hadhq wrote:

Storm Lord wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
The old ones should have been more careful before letting the warp on the Loose.

Now, unruled Chaos runs wild at conquest for Power.
:S

The Old ones aren't to blame, the orks and Eldar are, it's their fault the warp became what it is today. the old ones maintained it and kept it clean. Only the pains of the 'younger races' of the time way back when, that caused the Chaos Gods and enslaver plauges that killed the Old ones and so stopped the warp being kept safe.

The eldar (obsessed by interest ) and krork (obsessed with battlelust) may be guilty of
polluting the Warp . But the old ones coached these races. When a trainee acts, those in
charge should watch careful.So the old ones screwed their work with too complex plans.

Can i just point out here its somewhat hard to keep an eye on people when you're been slaughtered left right and center by necrons and Ctan! The Chaos Gods themselves were made after the bulk of the Old ones race was dead and what few were left had no power to do things about the crisis in the warp! Give the old guys a break!

They need a break,but instead got broken.

Its all the C'tans fault!



IMHO some surviving old one has his fingers in the rise of Tau.
In this cabal thing before heresy for sure one of them was involved.

Aeddon wrote:

Dendarien wrote:

Typeline wrote:

Storm Lord wrote:So why bother with the Transfer to Chaos domination, if as you've just helped point out are as evil as the Imperium, nothing changes, therefore chaos is evil.

Because it wouldn't be the same. Imagining that the Chaos Gods want to be in power to just slaughter everyone is ridiculous. They would have temples and expect worship just like the emperor but they wouldn't want full and utter devotion like he does. They aren't as 'evil' as the Imperium. Their rule would be a lot better, if not as organized, as the Imperium's.

When the emperor was "alive" so to speak he did not demand everyone think of him as a god or worship him. He saw the Great Crusade as a way of uniting all humans in the galaxy, what he did NOT want was to replace the human leaders who opposed him (that he viewed as tyrants) with another figurehead. Basically, he did not want to replace one tyrant with another. This is why the Space Marines do not think of the emperor as a god, but a great warrior and leader of men (as far as I have read).

I agree though that things are much more shades of grey than true black or white. The Imperium has become quite decadent with the absence of the emperor and has resorted to extreme measures to keep the relative balance of things (such as the Inquisition). Basically I think the Imperium is quite misguided and being abused by the higher ups pulling the strings.

As for Chaos...I can't find any reason as to why they are good. Each Chaos god represents a single emotion that, while not necessarily "evil", is taken to the most extreme measures. They may border more on neutral/evil...but good...IMO I just can't see anyway of justifying they are good. The CSM might see it that way (40K is all perception, just like real life). The CSM may think they are fighting for the right thing but their view is warped, they are trying to justify evil actions.

All that said, I don't think the Imperium is "good" either...or any 40K race for that matter. It is all perspective.

But can we really classify something as evil at all if we cannot find a viable example of good? If we are grading the 40k universe on a curve it seems to me that they all get between a C+ and C-. Unless of course you believe in the so called "Greater Good" (go Tau!!!) which once again is subject to prospective.

And how the do we get this deep into phylosophy when it comes too a game??? I mean come on here?!?!?!

Good point. What do we define as good in the 40K universe? That is all subjective to us. What races I think are good may not be which ones you think are good. But, I think we can agree some are worse than others (CSM, Necrons).

yeh, necrons are always evil, no doubt. And it is a fact that some degenerate Old Ones are still alive, just weaker and worse off than the older Old ones who ruled the universe

Hmm... the Blood God... a good guy?

The clue is in the title he's chosen for himself

Aeddon wrote:
But can we really classify something as evil at all if we cannot find a viable example of good?

Reminds of that old 40K quote:
"Only the insane have the strength to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane."

Aeddon wrote:
And how the do we get this deep into phylosophy when it comes too a game??? I mean come oncc here?!?!?!

For a game to tackle these kind of concepts, helps explain why it's been around for so long.

There is no good side in 40k, just the occasional good person.

Chaos does nasty things, screwing over many on a whim. The Imperium is in many ways Nazi Germany times a really big number (exterminatus, anybody). The Tau have been known to use concentration camps, and at the end of DoW Dark Crusade, sterilize all the humans to get rid of them. The Eldar only value them selves, and then there's Biel Tan, Necrons and Dark Eldar should be pretty obvious.

There is no "good" side. Some sides do more good things than others (eldar vs necrons) but still...

What of the Old ones in their time, whilst not an army list, they could be the good guys of the 40k time frame, creating and guiding new races, not exterminating/steralising them, and even fought against pre chaos warp nasties and the Ctan and their servants. Hardly evil/not good is it?

Storm Lord wrote:What of the Old ones in their time, whilst not an army list, they could be the good guys of the 40k time frame, creating and guiding new races, not exterminating/steralising them, and even fought against pre chaos warp nasties and the Ctan and their servants. Hardly evil/not good is it?

Oh isn't it ?

Old ones are creators and chaos is change,not creation.

So chaos is not good but the warp is neutral.

In all afirness to the Chaos Gods whilst they do have 'nice sides' Nurgle apparently has a wicked sense of humour, from reading the Daemons Codex it feels more like they are evil, just by how it's written and the background it gives. I would find examples but am a bit busy so will do so when I have a bit more time

Surely the real question is:

Is the Imperium even on the good side of neutral?

Depend who you ask. To Human kind yes it is, seeing as it is them and its armies are preventing human deaths from Xeno races. To Tau maybe, if it was willing to negotiate with them.

To Chaos, dark Eldar, Necrons, Nid's and Orks it makes no difference really, the Imperiums their, for a good fight, slaves food etc

To Eldar its more tricky to work out humanities standings. Whilst Humanity exists Chaos grows stronger so the Eldar aren't so happy. But Humanity does fight Chaos alot, and should humanity die out supposidly Chaos would too (Horus Heresy 'Legion') so arguably is good.

But for the whole Good/bad argument the Imperium is meant to be the good guys, notably why it is the Focus of most of GW's attention, and the focal point for the game and fluff

WingWong wrote:Surely the real question is:

Is the Imperium even on the good side of neutral?

the Imperium is the good side

For product and game its always the race of the customer thats good. If you buy at terra, its humans,if
you buy extraterrestrial its the aliens running the store.

For fluff it depends on your definition of good. When lazy, a lot of races fit. When strict maybe none is good.



Humanity as race is at the good side ,except of chaos worshippers.
The imperium as organization is to big and varied to count as whole good/evil.

admit to stormlord in his point on outer/inner view.

So the Orks see humans as good?

Cheese Elemental wrote:So the Orks see humans as good?

For sure! They love humans!

Were opponent No 1 not 2 No 1

I don't think the Orks care! As long as they can Hit living beings they couldn't care less about good or evil. they probably don't even have words for it!

Orks have three words: waagh ,gork,mork.

Searched in their dex, doesn't find more.

When the ork emotions created gork and mork in the warp,the ork gods may be chaos beeings?
The whole conquer the galaxy thing is a order from their gods.

Are ork-gods good or evil?

neither, fun loving maniacs who are green and just like a good fight.

I guess a good question to ask would be do the chaos gods have a sentient being or are they truly just mirrors of the emotion in the real world?

edit: just remebered ghost in the shell stand alone complex, with enough data you can create a sentient being without an original. however is the data constantly flowing in? if the imperium changed would the chaos gods too; and the imperium was destroyed (along with the eldar) would the orks/tau make their own chaos god then?

mold for the mold god!
for the greater evil?!

The rumours from 'legion' is that if Humanity was wiped out the chaos gods would fall also. Although until the Eldar fall I don't see Slaanesh going anywhere either.

The problem with Tau is that they barely register in the warp, meaning it is probably harder for them to feed Chaos with emotions. Orks on the other hand do have 2 warp entities made from them, Gork and Mork-and don't feed the 4 major Chaos powers.

Really though to answer the first question you just posed is: we don't really know. Reading the daemon codex I get the imperession they are both. And with the amount of absurd things in the codex I struggle to find an answer to it. So I would say don't think about it. Less the Inquisition come knocking at your door...

who are gork and mork anyway?

wash-away wrote:who are gork and mork anyway?

Two green guys,the orks need them as raw models for their gargants.They have not the insight of the mechanicum so they're
unable to do impressive great looking titans.

Tau motto (illusion to deceive others): For the greater goood
Real motto: for the greater evil
Combined to confuse all: for the greater god (evil god )

1hadhq wrote:

wash-away wrote:who are gork and mork anyway?

Two green guys,the orks need them as raw models for their gargants.They have not the insight of the mechanicum so they're
unable to do impressive great looking titans.

Tau motto (illusion to deceive others): For the greater goood
Real motto: for the greater evil
Combined to confuse all: for the greater god (evil god )

tis more confuzed.

so their ork titans? I thought they where warp entities.

Gork & Mork are the Ork gods. Garagnts are Orky Titans built in the images of their gods.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:Gork & Mork are the Ork gods. Garagnts are Orky Titans built in the images of their gods.

cool,

okay so what this topic was about. chaos are they good or bad?

I think that chaos are bad, their not just imperial because of the eldar. if the imperium where to fade you'd still have eldar that would follow chaos (that one striking scorpion exarch that follows khorn) I think that you'd see eldar turn to chaos as their culture grows. I think that they would get along with the tau, and orks fight eachother and everything else so yeah.

if eldar and the imperium where destroyed then what? do tau have a big enough imprint to effect the warp and create their own god? what are tau?

But taking poor people to be feed to the emporor? does the queen eat human brains for lunch?

You never know about these things!

hmm, old ones make eldar and orks (at that time called krorks), eldar and orks create warp gods. olds ones go nearly extinct. tau mysteriously evolve rapidly with nearly no warp presence. me thinks the old ones had one last shot at a perfect race

Tau the perfect race?

=> Perfect stats: 2/3/3/3/1/2/1/7/4+
non-perfect stats: 4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8/3+

Obvious that Tau are perfect

The way I see chaos, as through the eyes of a philosopher whose name I can't remember nor am inclined to find his name:

Chaos is neither good nor evil; it is the perversion of a purportedly good (or non-aligned) thing.

War might be good (or at least necessary), but taking it to the extreme of beserkers is not.

Passion may be good in some cases, but when you get your kicks from sacrificing innocents it's not.

Disease may strengthen a population by weeding out the weak ones, but a virulent strain can wipe out a planet.

Etc. Etc.

Twelve credits of philosophy has taught me that "good" and "evil" only work in the world of moral absolutes - where black is black and white is white, and a bus full of child is not going to cause a black action to go grey. The devil's in the details; the moment you start to introduce a dilemma to to situation (bus full of school children, for example), your claims to absolute good and absolute go out the window.

Pray tell me, in what philosophy is killing and eating babies not black EVIL concept?

jfrazell wrote:Pray tell me, in what philosophy is killing and eating babies not black EVIL concept?

Damien children, perhaps. Let's say you know that the kid draws from distinguished line of psychopaths and through divination you can determine that he will end worlds.

Or eating children who have already passed on to allow yourself to live while on a desert island.

Or perhaps Tau children. End hunger and the threat of the greater good at the same time! [/joke]

"Twelve credits of philosophy has taught me that "good" and "evil" only work in the world of moral absolutes - where black is black and white is white, and a bus full of child is not going to cause a black action to go grey. The devil's in the details; the moment you start to introduce a dilemma to to situation (bus full of school children, for example), your claims to absolute good and absolute go out the window.

I do wonder, how much more black and white exists than what we've got in 40k? People who are evil live in a big purple hole in the universe, wear funny hats covered in bones and slime, have pointy teeth and, to remove whatever shred of doubt that might remain, run around screaming their hatred of peace and tranquility.

"Good" Chaos? It's an oxymoron. Chaos by its very nature "not good" because it's born of emotion juxtaposed to the selfless generative behavior that creates "goodness": rage, decadent vanity, harmful decay and rot, and unchecked mutation.

Naturally, the most obvious argument against absolute morality is that in the Imperium, the "good" guys are generally amoral people... grim, corrupt, violent, etc. etc. etc. etc. And why are they allowed to prosper? Because generally everybody is working very hard to maintain stability when funny hat-wearing freaky psychotics jump out of their purple space hole to butcher and maim everybody, or convert law abiding citizens to do it for them. It's so hard to battle this enemy that, as long as you're not working *against* the goals of the Imperium, status quo is tolerated. Does this make the Imperium less good? Yeah, it does. But it does not make Chaos "less bad". Even if you try to make the argument that Chaos is cleaning out the corruption of the Imperium, that still doesn't make Chaos somehow "good", it's simply two evils conflicting.

Chaos is evil because it is the perverted antithesis of anything that would be associated with goodness. It's a void in which no goodness can exist.

but chaos itself is just chaos
the gods can think but if you think about it they have no free willthey are emotion which is not inherently good or evil
the gods are emotion so must always act on the emotion that they represent the do not choose to be evil they just exist

The argument that "nothing is inherently good or evil" is a complete cop-out. The chaos gods are manifestations of destructive emotions that actively seek to increase the amount of pain, suffering, death, and misery encountered by others. This is more or less every culture's conception of "evil". The "gods are emotion so must always act on the emotion that they represent; they do not choose to be evil they just exist" as inherently evil entities. Personal choice is unnecessary when talking about absolute morality, that's the whole point of absolute morality. Things are good, or they are evil, and they just "are".

bryantsbears wrote:

jfrazell wrote:Pray tell me, in what philosophy is killing and eating babies not black EVIL concept?

Damien children, perhaps. Let's say you know that the kid draws from distinguished line of psychopaths and through divination you can determine that he will end worlds.

Or eating children who have already passed on to allow yourself to live while on a desert island.

Or perhaps Tau children. End hunger and the threat of the greater good at the same time! [/joke]

Good luck with that. Even Tau children have guns.

And I think that there is no goodness in the 41st Millenium. Besides "The Greater Good" of course.

The Imperium? Bunch of Nazi's ruled by a dead "Emperor".
Eldar? Well, I just plain don't like them, so they can't be good.
Dark Eldar? Speak for themselves, really.
Tyranids? Mindless killing machines.
Necrons? See above.
Tau? Probably the only race that comes close to "good", as they are really just trying to expand their empire right now.
Chaos? The same as the Imperium, pretty much.
Space Marines? Same as the Imperium, killing in the name of a dead guy.

There is no good in the far future. There are only militant factions and militaristic empires bent on destroying every other race/faction/empire. And that's why we love it!

Seamus O'Shank wrote:

Good luck with that. Even Tau children have guns.

And I think that there is no goodness in the 41st Millenium. Besides "The Greater Good" of course.

greater good? maximum evil this is!

The Imperium? Bunch of Nazi's ruled by a dead "Emperor".

Sorry,not dead and not nazi.

Tau? Probably the only race that comes close to "good", as they are really just trying to expand their empire right now.

To expand an empire is good? Tau are good? Little faithful bluegray,you are.

Space Marines? Same as the Imperium, killing in the name of a dead guy.

Sorry, as above,your wrong.

There is no good in the far future. There are only militant factions and militaristic empires bent on destroying every other race/faction/empire. And that's why we love it!

Yes, we do