I was wondering what the consensus was of the dakka community regarding GW products. To me it seems like they have somewhat of a monopoly on miniature gaming and sell their goods for outrageous prices. Do you guys think the plastics, pewter and resin are really worth what we pay for them? What about the modeling supplies ($8 super glue?!?!)? And books? I'd love to see what you guys think and if the prices are justified.

Plastic kits feel less so, but the metal with the A-B-C-D-E-F levels of pricing is definitely overpriced. $17 for 1 special character mini, simply because in the game it's a special character? Gross.

Black Library stuff is nutty expensive too, though I think the new book market is to blame in general, with high prices for even paperbacks across the board. Stack "GeeDub Pricing" onto that and voila, $8 40k novels.

And over in the hand flamer thread was some discussion on the overpriced and underquality hobby supplies.

So ... yes, though the nice plastic kits with all the extra heads and bitz that we're getting aren't SO bad.

- Salvage

Boss_Salvage wrote:Plastic kits feel less so, but the metal with the A-B-C-D-E-F levels of pricing is definitely overpriced. $17 for 1 special character mini, simply because in the game it's a special character? Gross.

Black Library stuff is nutty expensive too, though I think the new book market is to blame in general, with high prices for even paperbacks across the board. Stack "GeeDub Pricing" onto that and voila, $8 40k novels.

And over in the hand flamer thread was some discussion on the overpriced and underquality hobby supplies.

So ... yes, though the nice plastic kits with all the extra heads and bitz that we're getting aren't SO bad.

- Salvage

Yeah I forgot about how they price specifically for point costs. Immortals and Pariahs anyone?

I think it depends on what you are looking at.

I think plastic models are appropriately priced for the most part, pewter on the other hand tends to be pretty expensive for what you get. Heck, back in the day you could get a squd of lead Holing Banshees for $15 and Rhino's were two to a box! The models now are far more impressive but I still feel that pewter is overpriced for the most part.

Resin? Rediculously expensive but if you've got the expendable income by all means spend it I guess...

The only GW hobby supplies I buy is paint. Everything else, from x-acto knives to glue can be bought somewere else for a much cheaper (and more reasonable) price.

GW is not a monopoly. They are simply the biggest and most well known of the companies that sell war games.

Most if not all war games are over priced. GW is the trendsetter in this regard. The other companies follow GW's lead. Whether that is because GW could bury them if it came to a price war or something else is up for debate.

Absolutely they're overpriced. But it seems odd they're price structure. When i saw that the baneblade was being made for 100 bucks! How awesome would it be if they could produce a plastic thunderhawk for 150! Oddly-the small kits seem too expensive. 10 man SM tac squad is 35 bucks, 3.50 a figure. That's more than the pewters use to cost. However the advancements which have been made in the injection mold process are producing plastic minis which are far superior to the pewter back in the day.

Overall the cost of the figure is up, but I don't see a major problem with it (except maybe 50 bucks for 5 terminators!)

Their tools are way over priced. But their paints are competitive. And that glue?! the bottle isn't even half full when you buy it (seriously, take a look at it). Go with Zap CA++ glue

Crimson Devil wrote:GW is not a monopoly. They are simply the biggest and most well known of the companies that sell war games.

Most if not all war games are over priced. GW is the trendsetter in this regard. The other companies follow GW's lead. Whether that is because GW could bury them if it came to a price war or something else is up for debate.

Well I was using the technical economic term for monopoly, which is when a firm has a huge market share of a market (miniatures) and is able to, as you put it, set trends.

I think they're overpriced on the additional hobby stuff more than anything else. Why spend $12 on a knife when you can buy an xacto for $3? Why spend $12 on 3 files when you can get a file for $.75 that works just as well. On these things, and their flock, sand, etc. they're just going to get as much money from people who don't know that alternatives exist - usually kiddies.

Boss_Salvage wrote:Plastic kits feel less so, but the metal with the A-B-C-D-E-F levels of pricing is definitely overpriced. $17 for 1 special character mini, simply because in the game it's a special character? Gross.

I disagree with you on this point, and here's why. Most special characters have more detail than most normal models. Compare Skulltaker to any given bloodletter. The model with more detail almost certainly takes more resources (in this case, sculptor hours) to produce. Let's be somewhat conservative and say that skulltaker took twice as long to produce as your generic bloodletter.

Now, consider demand. The extreme gamer might buy three skulltakers (one for a chariot, one for a juggernaut, one on foot). Whereas, they're going to need to buy multiple bloodletters in order to have an army. Clearly, they're going to sell more of the model that took less resources to produce.

That means that the margins on the character model have to be higher than the margins on the rank&file guy. It's an oversimplification to believe that price is equated to points-cost, although that is somewhat true. The more points something costs, the less of them you'll need in your army, and therefore the margins on the item need to be higher. You figure they're selling at least ten bloodletters for each skulltaker, and that's probably an underestimation.

Are they overpriced compared to the overall miniatures market? I don't think so. I've bought minis from Freebooter, Hasslefree, Reaper, and other companies (as well as random things from the CMON shop, and $10-$20 for a well-sculpted character figure isn't out of line with these other companies prices at all.

This thread makes me laugh!

Ha ha ha.

Of course they are.

GW's rules and models cost as much as 3-5 times more than the equivalent from alternative producers.

However, GW manage to sell their stock which means they have broadly achieved the "market clearing price" where demand is available to absorb the supply at that price.

This is because some unique factors associated with GW games -- the fluff and the designs -- are highly desireable and cannot be copied by rivals.

Consequently GW products cannot be said in economic terms to be overpriced.

I've been complaining about GW prices ever since Rogue Trader. Sadly, now those 2 Rhinos per boxset for $20 and 30 Beakies for $30 are considered great deals. Can you believe you used to get 8 metal Terminators for $25? I have an old metal Dreadnought that I bought for $7...RETAIL (and I thought that was expensive).

Now, don't get me wrong, I understand that today's sculpts are way better than the old ones. I also understand that they went from Zero stores in the U.S. to hundreds of stores in the U.S. in that amount of time...so I understand that they are reinvesting their profits. But still...when 30 Tactical Marines now cost $105 at retail, it really pains me to think about how much this hobby now costs. I'll take 30 original Beakies for $30 any day over 30 Tac Marines for $105, even if they only come with Flamers and Missile Launchers.

The biggest crime, so to speak, IMHO, is not the new sculpts, though. It's the OLD metal figures that have gone up in price like crazy for no apparent reason. Ghazkull Thraka is now absolutely insane. Azrael is another. And anyone remember the inflation of the old metal Wraithlord from its original release up until it got retired by the plastic version? THESE ARE THE SAME SCULPTS.

However, I will give GW props for what will likely be included in the 5th edition box set. That is a good deal, even by Rogue Trader standards. And I'll praise them for the Baneblade (compare to the old Armorcast Shadowsword which was $80 at retail (I know because I have one) and an inferior sculpt). I'm finally glad that they seem to be passing on the savings to the customers at last.

Boss_Salvage wrote:Black Library stuff is nutty expensive too, though I think the new book market is to blame in general, with high prices for even paperbacks across the board. Stack "GeeDub Pricing" onto that and voila, $8 40k novels.

$8 is about right for the average-sized paperback these days. So I'm not sure where you get the additional GW pricing from. In addition, BL have been re-releasing (pretty damn quickly in most cases) trios of books for $10-$12, which is obviously a 50% or more saving. So their pricing for books is actually pretty damn good.

As for the rest of it, yes, I think GW stuff is vastly overpriced (some stuff more than others - $120 for three brushes was ridiculous), but who cares? Buy it or don't. Vote with your wallet.

Redbeard wrote:I think they're overpriced on the additional hobby stuff more than anything else. Why spend $12 on a knife when you can buy an xacto for $3? Why spend $12 on 3 files when you can get a file for $.75 that works just as well. On these things, and their flock, sand, etc. they're just going to get as much money from people who don't know that alternatives exist - usually kiddies.

Boss_Salvage wrote:Plastic kits feel less so, but the metal with the A-B-C-D-E-F levels of pricing is definitely overpriced. $17 for 1 special character mini, simply because in the game it's a special character? Gross.

I disagree with you on this point, and here's why. Most special characters have more detail than most normal models. Compare Skulltaker to any given bloodletter. The model with more detail almost certainly takes more resources (in this case, sculptor hours) to produce. Let's be somewhat conservative and say that skulltaker took twice as long to produce as your generic bloodletter.

Now, consider demand. The extreme gamer might buy three skulltakers (one for a chariot, one for a juggernaut, one on foot). Whereas, they're going to need to buy multiple bloodletters in order to have an army. Clearly, they're going to sell more of the model that took less resources to produce.

That means that the margins on the character model have to be higher than the margins on the rank&file guy. It's an oversimplification to believe that price is equated to points-cost, although that is somewhat true. The more points something costs, the less of them you'll need in your army, and therefore the margins on the item need to be higher. You figure they're selling at least ten bloodletters for each skulltaker, and that's probably an underestimation.

Are they overpriced compared to the overall miniatures market? I don't think so. I've bought minis from Freebooter, Hasslefree, Reaper, and other companies (as well as random things from the CMON shop, and $10-$20 for a well-sculpted character figure isn't out of line with these other companies prices at all.

*unscrews top of gascan*

Howsabout Eldrad? 20$ for an old, old sculpt that is 2 dimensional, and really not much more detailed than a normal Eldar. Or Imperial Assassins? These are old sculpts that recouped their cost a looooooooong time ago. Comparing some of the character models which GW sells for $17-20 to some of the stuff available for 4-6$ from Reaper Warlord or other companies, you really see some inflationary pricing there.

However, not everything is like that. I generally feel like there new vehicle kits are worth the price, even the massive (and massively expensive) Baneblade. If something is really good quality, it's easier to justify the high price tag. Repackaging ancient figs at hugely inflated prices, less so. The new demon boxes come out to being $2.20 for a really nice (albeit plastic) fig, and that's not too hard to swallow. I still think an individual peweter trooper should cost $3, $4 for a special weapon or jump trooper. You could probably add a dollar to that and be in the realm of fairness, but $6 for a cadian with a plasma gun is retardedly over-priced.

One need only look around at what other companies charge for figures of similar size and quality to see that GW has taken advantage of their dedicated gamers by raising prices so much in the last few.

However, their are also some kits that are really good values. The LOTR sculpts are generally really, really nice, and the basic plastics give you something like 25 guys for $24 bucks, and the poses and sculpting are quite good. That's a good value, as are battallions/battle forces.

In General, I think they are overpriced on miniatures. Hobby supplies are an absolute joke, and only someone who hates his own wallet would put it through the abuse of buying GW hobby supplies. Even paints are packaged in small quantities, though the new paints are quite excellent in terms of quality, so somewhat less overpriced.

GW? Overpriced? I ask you, friends, is the sky still blue? Does the Earth still revolve around the Sun? Does Brian Adams still suck? Surely these things are as constant as the tide. So too, is the level at which GW gouges us, their loyal customer.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I love GW, I love the stuff they put out, but man, they charge more than any company has a right to. I'm not complaining, I'm happy to shell out my hard earned presidents. But I atleast recognize that they shouldn't be charging near what they do.

But then again, I play Krieg, so I'm not in my right mind when it comes to money...

This can't be answered in such a simplistic poll, as GW makes many products, some of which are reasonably priced, and others which are not. Let me begin this whole post with a qualifier:

Games Workshop Products are definitely overpriced outside the US market, since the rest of the world is paying anywhere from 20-50% premium over already high US prices.

In general - here's my take on GW's pricing: Are the following overpriced?

Here are the "No, GW product is fairly priced" items:

Warhammer/40k/LOTR metal kits: These kits are about the same price as their competitors.

Large Warhammer/LOTR plastic kits: There are no competitors producing equivalents

LOTR plastic infantry: These are a fantastic value, with decent sculpting.

Warhammer/40k starter plastic kits: Skull Pass / Battle for McCragge and Battle for 5th Edition offer good value for the dollar

Paints: While much more expensive the craft paints, Citadel Colour paints offer a good range and are close in price to their competitors.

Terrain: GW makes nice, easily constructed and durrable terrain - outside of trees, these are fairly priced. Citadel trees are horrendously overpriced.

Here are the "Yes GW product is overpriced" items:

Warhammer/40k Infantry: These are approaching the cost of metal figures on a per figure basis - with a tradeoff where detail (undercuts) is sacrificed for posability in 40k, and ease of ranking in Fantasy.

Rulebooks: Games Workshop rulebooks are grossly overpriced - their competitors are able to publish full colour books and retail them at a lower price point... often 30-50% cheaper.

Warhammer Vehicle Kits: Vehicle kits are arbitrarily priced based on battlefield performance and points cost, regardless of size or complexity, and are far more expensive than non-gaming equivalents, on the magnitude of 200-300% more expensive - e.g. Star Wars kits and small 1/144 scale Gundam kits vs equivalents: Tanks and Dreadnoughts.

Citadel Modelling Tools: These can be up to 500% more expensive than competitor's products.

Citadel Modelling Supplies: These are also overpriced for what you get.

What bothers me is how they purposely price high point units high, and low point units low just so everyone is forced to spend ~500+ for a 2k point army.

The new burnas/lootas kits are great, but way overpriced.

*begins hovis music*

Back in t'day, when I were just a lad, a you could get a box of 20 figures for £10, a loaf of bread were tuppence and people paid you to take petrol. But it weren't all good, we had to work 25 hours a day, 8 days a week down at t'mill, walking 18 miles to and from t'job, uphill both ways. When we got home (which were a box by the side of a road) our dad would give us a good hiding and we were glad of it, not like these bloody kids today. Don't know they're born.

/sepia tinted memories.

You forgot the snow and ice.

Compared to Hornby Railway collecting, NO, GW isn't overpriced.

I picked up a lootas set recently (for a necromunda gangers conversion) and it was, I thought, not bad value.
(admittedly, I did not pay full retail for it).
11 heavy (more or less) weapons for the price and a few ork boys tossed in as well.

Just like I picked up the devs set for upgrading my squads to all have a heavy weapon (you get 8 in the box).

Some of the other sets, though are priced a little too steeply. So much so, that many oz gamers mail order from the US for the stuff.

GW may have some overpricing, but I look at it this way.

If you are scraping by and struggling to buy your next unit of figs. Maybe playing games isn't what you should be doing.

All the quibbling over prices is useless. You realize there are other avenues to getting figures/models, right? Buying used models is a viable option, also.

Those who pay full retail are foolish!

My 2 cents worth

Lootas overpriced?

You get 4 big guns, 4 burnas, a Mek, plus more that I can remember off hand.

Dark Angels special characters can be reproduced with all the bits off new sprues. many options. May not look same, but you can justify a conversion.

I agree metal specials at $15 each is awful.

We all spend what we can afford and then there's some who spend what they can't afford. There is where the bitching comes in, usually

GW plastics are quite overpriced, actually.

The prices of metal was driven up for 5+ years.

This is no coincidence.

Plastic injection molding is expensive to get into (that's where you and GW's high prices come in) and has driven companies out of business...and nearly taken GW out as well.

However, once you are "in" plastic injection molding, your costs drop dramatically.

So let's see:

Prices remain the same.

No longer metal, so alot less detail.

Metal costs more than plastic to the manufacturer by a huge amount.

Once you've got the mold done and are making plastic kits, you're basically printing money as the costs is pennies. Yes, pennies.

No one cares about the "design costs" of a brand new car.

Still costs them 25 grand to manufacture a 30k car.

Costs GW 18 cents to make a smurf kit of 5 marines.

Gee. What a markup.

Amazing they are still struggling to stay in business.

If GW was a supermarket, no one would know anything about it.

They'd have gone out of business the day they opened.

(In case you don't know, supermarkets are one of the most cutthroat businesses...only selling gas [at the station level] is worse.)

hahahahahahahaaha yes

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Lootas overpriced?

You get 4 big guns, 4 burnas, a Mek, plus more that I can remember off hand.

For the same price as 16 boyz were about 4 years ago. You do get the guns and burnas in the box, but only enough ork parts to make 5 models (including the mek). It's that classic GW thing of making more points in game = more cash for the models. But, c'est la vie.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say no. Think about it, if the prices went down what's the first thing that would follow it? I can promise you it's not their salaries, the quality of the models would go down.

What's the alternative anyway? FW? They're even higher priced!

I'm earning below the poverty line and I can still afford more models than I can find time to paint. So, no, they must not be overpriced.

I don't touch their modeling supplies, though (except of green stuff).

the strange thin whit the modelintools is that there knife is not that over prist I saw the same knife an a store that cost aliest 1€more ( thats 1.4 dollar ) modelin knife's whit grips like that are expensif

Kilkrazy wrote:GW's rules and models cost as much as 3-5 times more than the equivalent from alternative producers.

Really? Do you play Warmachine / Hordes? Rackham? Infinity? How about a Flames Army using Battlefront minis?

Their models and armies aren't any cheaper than the GW equivalent minis.

The only minatures you're gonna find at a lower price (at least that I can think of right now) are D&D, Hero Clix and the like. It's a different kind of hobby al together.

I'd just like to know what store the people who said 'no' shop in, as I'd like to pick up a pair of rose-tinted glasses for myself.

BYE

Aeddon wrote:I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say no. Think about it, if the prices went down what's the first thing that would follow it? I can promise you it's not their salaries, the quality of the models would go down.

What's the alternative anyway? FW? They're even higher priced!

You've got two alternatives.

1. Play GW rules but use non-GW models such as the new plastic historicals for Fantasy and various different SF and modern ranges for 40K. This works fine so long as (A) you like the GW rules, (B) you're not fussed about the GW models and (C) you don't want to play in GW shops and official tournaments.

2. Play something else entirely, like Ancients or Napoleonics, which are much cheaper.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'd just like to know what store the people who said 'no' shop in, as I'd like to pick up a pair of rose-tinted glasses for myself.

BYE

Baccus 6mm

https://www.baccus6mm.com/

GW products overpriced? Duh.

Games Workshop has been around for years. For about the last twenty years or so, they have been trying to find the price point- that price at which people will change their spending habits. To be honest, I don't know if they've reached it yet; we're still buying, after all.

Personally I think the toy tanks are too expensive at $50, especially when compared to model kits you can buy elsewhere. I stopped buying 40K stuff the day a single plastic model was priced at $15 (space marine commander). I grimace in irritation when I see a mounted Aragorn being sold for $22. I stamp my little feet in frustration when they ask me to pay $15 for two bases of nurglings.

On the other hand, 10 fantasy figures for $22 doesn't seem as outrageous to me. $2.20 per rank-and-file figure, when the figures are as detailed and convertable, is a price I don't mind paying. Even if some are so-so (Empire infantry), others are great (new skeletons).

And a lot of the LotR figures- the generic troops, at least- are going for $1 each. Those are less detailed, of course, but I'd be happy to pay less money for less detail in certain areas- like, oh, Night Goblins. Wait, those are already less detailed.

GW varies their pricing across their lines, with the higher prices tending to be in the more popular game system. I don't imagine we'll be seeing much of a price increase in LotR plastics for quite a long time, given that the movie frenzy is years behind us now. Gotta do something to pull in new customers, maybe lower pricing will do it.
I'd love to see a reduction in price for the Specialist games, especially WarMaster, BFG, and Epic; but at this point, those games are played only by serious enthusiasts, who are willing to pay a premium for their toys.

Now, the pricing that I find completely laughable is the GW hobby supplies- PVA glue, plastic cement, superglue etc. I imagine that it isn't cheap to have the PVA packaged into a squeeze-tube, and have the GW logo printed on it. But anyone who is willing to pay $8 for a few ounces of GW PVA, instead of going to a hardware store and paying $10 for a gallon, doesn't deserve to have money anyway.

To those folks who like to say "Warmachine ain't no cheaper! Confrontation ain't no cheaper!", I reply: GW has proved what gamers will pay. Of course every other company will follow their pricing structure as closely as possible.

I wish my hobby was cheaper, but it has not yet become too expensive.

The problem I have with their plastics is that they somehow justify charging prices over and above other model kit manufacturers. These other manufacturers make real things, they make accurate scale models which requries a lot of time, effort and research. GW just make something pretty and can do what they like. It isn't the same thing at all, but they charge more than many model companies do for their products. So asking £25 for a Leman Russ is a little over the odds.

Their smaller kits, particularly boxes of infantry work out rather expensive. Plastic moulding is good, but it's not better than metal, you still struggle with the undercut and detail you can only get with metal. Yet they charge several pounds for each plastic mini, and you're not really getting an awful lot for that. There's something far more satisfying about metal miniature too. The plastics were much better value for money when they appeared, a Skeleton regiment for £10, a ten man marine squad for £10. They've nearly doubled, the offer isn't nearly as attractive.

While I appreciate that laying out money and going into plastic moulding is initially expensive, the returns make it far more worthwhile in the long term allowing you to produce more, faster and for less. Plastic you would hope was a cheaper alternative to large army building, but any savings are not passed onto the customer, meaning you have to pay out as much as ever to get a large army, but it's now mainly the inferior plastic rather than metal as it was previously. I think they have done this simply to make their products ever more child friendly but it's to the detriment of their overall output.


What about their metal products? Well these vary. Some are better than others, but yes they are overprices, you get single 28mm figures being priced anything up to £10 simply because they are a 'character' or because they are more powerful than other minis. This instantly loads the game in favour of richer players but it is a totally arbitary pricing system not grounded in production costs.

But they do offer high quality? Well most of the time. I do get a bit concerned about this 'mould-slippage' they seem to get, I don't know why it happens or how figures with such large amount of flash or a step in them pass quality control, but it makes me check everything before buying. Their larger metal models are a concern. Their LOTR Balrog and Nazgul miniatures are particularly poor with a lot of work required in building, cutting and filling, you expect better for £40.

Their Inquisitor range is an example of this quality-cost. They are nice figures yes, but they are inferior to many similarly priced 54mm figures out there. Take Andrea miniatures for instance, their figures are very finely detailed and he fit is nearly always excellent, the same cannot be said of GW's 54mm range which need a fair bit of work and filling, disappointing when they ask around £15-20 for them.

Their range of tools are definately overpriced. They get such things from standard distributers and mark them up, the exact same drill and cutters can be found many other places for far less.

Their paperback books are the standard price of such things, they are the same as everything else in a bookshop. I've no quibble there.



There was a time when GW was far more expensive than everything else, but many companies now follow suit with similar prices making the market price more in line with GW. This is understandable from the perspective of rival companies, but it has made everything become expensive across the board. GW are a fairly ruthless company and their marketing approach is to charge whatever the market will bare.

The A-B-C-D-E-F system of pricing was cynically designed for rapid price increases without changes to packaging on shelves. I knew the moment they introduced it that the writing was on the wall, they even set C and D to be £5, if I recall correctly. A few months down the line everything from D upwards had a quid or two stuck on it. And it's been a method of pushing the cost up overnight ever since.

The Plastics are over priced sense they are already have the models

The metals are expensive (duh metal)

But thats not really an excuse.

Warmachine for Lord Commander Stker is 13.99 for a HQ character for higher point games.
For 6 sword knights it's $30

Metal is more expensive. (for Privateer its more feature creep) thank god GW isnt like that....as much.

I do miss when GW was cheap like 3 rhino's for $45 or something.

or the Tact squad an Rhino $35 ...cant remeber

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:GW's rules and models cost as much as 3-5 times more than the equivalent from alternative producers.

Really? Do you play Warmachine / Hordes? Rackham? Infinity? How about a Flames Army using Battlefront minis?

Their models and armies aren't any cheaper than the GW equivalent minis.

I don't know anyone who plays any of those except me, who plays Infinity. (At least I have the rules and I'm planning to buy some figures.)

All of those game systems are the same as GW, a one-company IP locking (in theory) models, fluff and accessories into a single game and manufacturer. You could equally buy the Infinity rules and use the Pig Iron figures, or the EM23 figures or various other SF figures all of which are cheaper than Infinity or 40K figures.

If you compare typical 40K figures with historical figures, they are 3-5 times more expensive. Or compare 40K with Pig Iron which are SF and cost £14 for 10 infantry and £7 for 4 heavy weapons.

Kilkrazy wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:GW's rules and models cost as much as 3-5 times more than the equivalent from alternative producers.

Really? Do you play Warmachine / Hordes? Rackham? Infinity? How about a Flames Army using Battlefront minis?

Their models and armies aren't any cheaper than the GW equivalent minis.

I don't know anyone who plays any of those except me, who plays Infinity. (At least I have the rules and I'm planning to buy some figures.)

All of those game systems are the same as GW, a one-company IP locking (in theory) models, fluff and accessories into a single game and manufacturer. You could equally buy the Infinity rules and use the Pig Iron figures, or the EM23 figures or various other SF figures all of which are cheaper than Infinity or 40K figures.

If you compare typical 40K figures with historical figures, they are 3-5 times more expensive. Or compare 40K with Pig Iron which are SF and cost £14 for 10 infantry and £7 for 4 heavy weapons.

Huh? At recent exchange rates of 1 GBP = 2 USD, you say Pig Iron is $28 USD for 10 models?

That's the same as what I pay the War Store for 10 Space Marines (10 SM for $28), and *twice* as much as what I pay for Imperial Guard (20 IG for $28).

If you want to make the claim that GW is more expensive comparing generic infantry, you need to compare with the 20-man boxes of plastic Cadians and Catachans. Relatively speaking, those are very well-priced.

So far, all you've done is demonstrate that GW is a better deal than non-GW.

If Pig Iron really were 1/5 the price of GW, then I could get 100 Pig Iron infantry for the same $28 USD / 14 GBP. Is that what you meant to type ("100)", but you dropped a zero ("10")?

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'd just like to know what store the people who said 'no' shop in, as I'd like to pick up a pair of rose-tinted glasses for myself.

I d like to know what product the people said 'yes' are comparing with, as from what I see, The GW Hobby isn't noticeably differently priced from any of its competitors.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:GW's rules and models cost as much as 3-5 times more than the equivalent from alternative producers.

Really? Do you play Warmachine / Hordes? Rackham? Infinity? How about a Flames Army using Battlefront minis?

Their models and armies aren't any cheaper than the GW equivalent minis.

I don't know anyone who plays any of those except me, who plays Infinity. (At least I have the rules and I'm planning to buy some figures.)

All of those game systems are the same as GW, a one-company IP locking (in theory) models, fluff and accessories into a single game and manufacturer. You could equally buy the Infinity rules and use the Pig Iron figures, or the EM23 figures or various other SF figures all of which are cheaper than Infinity or 40K figures.

If you compare typical 40K figures with historical figures, they are 3-5 times more expensive. Or compare 40K with Pig Iron which are SF and cost £14 for 10 infantry and £7 for 4 heavy weapons.

Huh? At recent exchange rates of 1 GBP = 2 USD, you say Pig Iron is $28 USD for 10 models?

That's the same as what I pay the War Store for 10 Space Marines (10 SM for $28), and *twice* as much as what I pay for Imperial Guard (20 IG for $28).

If you want to make the claim that GW is more expensive comparing generic infantry, you need to compare with the 20-man boxes of plastic Cadians and Catachans. Relatively speaking, those are very well-priced.

So far, all you've done is demonstrate that GW is a better deal than non-GW.

If Pig Iron really were 1/5 the price of GW, then I could get 100 Pig Iron infantry for the same $28 USD / 14 GBP. Is that what you meant to type ("100)", but you dropped a zero ("10")?

I didn't say Pig Iron were 1/5 the price of GW. The Pig Iron figures are metal, and slightly cheaper per individual figure than plastic GW. For example, plastic Tau Fire Warriors = £18 for 12. Most individual metal GW figures are £2-£3 each.

Compare Fire Warriors with Perry Brothers ACW which are £12 for 36 figures.

BTW you can't directly compare £10 retail price with $20 since the £10 includes VAT at 17.5%. Untaxed, the £10 would cost £8.51 which at current exchange rate ($1.97 to £1) is $16.76, add 5% sales tax = $17.60.

If you read my post near the start of the thread, you will see that I do not consider GW figures to be overpriced. I agree with fellblade that GW are trying to find a market clearing price for highly specialist items that thanks to consumer demand can be priced higher than superficially competing models from other companies.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Those who pay full retail are foolish!

I think you'll need to qualify that statement as YMMV.

While this is true for those who play exclusively in their own private venues, this kind of attitude is what is killing the brick and mortar stores which offer gaming areas. Square footage that independent retailers devote to gaming are areas that do not contain merchandise, and as such do not directly contribute to their bottom line - as a result, paying the difference between MSRP and 20% interweb discount when using these facilities is hardly foolish, especially if players wish to "retain" said area for gaming. Those who think that they are entitled to game in stores as a free public service, using the store's facilities while purchasing all their product online - and worse still, advocating this view to other patrons - (often on store premises!), are IMHO, narrow-minded-donkey-hats that inevitably hasten either the closure of these facilities, or the store's dropping of the product line.

Granted, paying 50%+ difference between non-US MSRP and the interweb discount is a bit harder to ignore - I usually get around this issue by buying non-GW products from the retailer once in a while - (The theory holds here as well, since it is possible to get Privateer product at discount from the Warstore as well).

keezus wrote:

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Those who pay full retail are foolish!

I think you'll need to qualify that statement as YMMV.

While this is true for those who play exclusively in their own private venues, this kind of attitude is what is killing the brick and mortar stores which offer gaming areas. Square footage that independent retailers devote to gaming are areas that do not contain merchandise, and as such do not directly contribute to their bottom line - as a result, paying the difference between MSRP and 20% interweb discount when using these facilities is hardly foolish, especially if players wish to "retain" said area for gaming. Those who think that they are entitled to game in stores as a free public service, using the store's facilities while purchasing all their product online - and worse still, advocating this view to other patrons - (often on store premises!), are IMHO, narrow-minded-donkey-hats that inevitably hasten either the closure of these facilities, or the store's dropping of the product line.

Quoted for truth. I think it's a decision you have to make, about how much you like having a place to walk down the street and buy your games, have a game, and talk about games. I'm lucky to live about 4 blocks from a really great game store with friendly staff, and awesome selection, and a trusting owner who will let you use the game room as late as you want, you just chuck the key back through the mailslot when you're done. Keeping that in my backyard is worth paying full retail to me.

fellblade wrote:GW products overpriced? Duh. ... I wish my hobby was cheaper, but it has not yet become too expensive.

Fell blade, you really hit it, that's it exactly!

I guess I always assumed GW was an expensive hobby, what makes me irritated are the obvious overcosted items, like hobby suplies, but also terminators, $50 a box set for 5 models? Or for just 2 sprues. It's absurd.

I also thought necron destroyers and Tau suits are awfully overpriced. Maybe that's because I'm also a real modeler. Please don't see this as a flame, it's not intended as such! Of course I think GW modeling and figure painting is real modeling. I just mean... well say a real "world" modeler, real world kits, say from tamiya, hasegawawa or Ban Dai. They are like priced to GWs by kit by approximate size, but it is a quality issue. Those kits (non GW) come with colored plastic, hundreds of parts, options in some cases, rubber poly caps, rubber pieces, metal (chromed) finishing for some sprues and more for about the same price and are even imported too. I know GW models are intentionally simpler as they are essentially game pieces, not models as such, but from a modeler's perspective, they have an inferior product in many cases and the demand like prices or a premium.

Meh, I still likem! Bring me the Valks!

Pariah Press wrote: I'm earning below the poverty line and I can still afford more models than I can find time to paint. So, no, they must not be overpriced.

I don't touch their modeling supplies, though (except of green stuff).

Hmm.
To be fair, you didn't give enough details to make your statement matter.

Do you have any of the following?


Mortgage
Rent
Your own place
Electric bill
Gas Bill
Auto Note
Insurance (Auto, Home and/or Health)
Wife
Kids
College expenses (books, tuition, etc)
Credit card bills


See, I earn easily in the Middle Class bracket.
I have everything above except rent & college expenses (credit card isn't much, though).
I can't "afford" to buy directly from GW.
By that, I mean, I could do it, but the prices are so high that it would be a bad budget choice.

Without knowing your details, the "below poverty line" doesn't hold a lot of water.

A 17 year old kid making $10K a year living with Mom and Dad doesn't typically have enough bills to be concerned about that stuff (for example).

----------------------------------------------

GW models (GW EVERYTHING) are overpriced.
For those that say, "Compared to other companies, they're not," or something similar, I offer this:

Most other companies are overpriced, as well.

Just because the cost of one company's product is similar to the cost of another company's product, that doesn't automatically qualify one as fairly priced. I potentially qualifies both as overpriced.

You can't say Gasoline is fairly priced because every other retailer in the market offers similar pricing. You can only say thqt it's no more expensive than it is at "the other place."

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

Pariah Press wrote: I'm earning below the poverty line and I can still afford more models than I can find time to paint. So, no, they must not be overpriced.

I don't touch their modeling supplies, though (except of green stuff).

Hmm.
To be fair, you didn't give enough details to make your statement matter.

Do you have any of the following?


Mortgage
Rent
Your own place
Electric bill
Gas Bill
Auto Note
Insurance (Auto, Home and/or Health)
Wife
Kids
College expenses (books, tuition, etc)
Credit card bills


See, I earn easily in the Middle Class bracket.
I have everything above except rent & college expenses (credit card isn't much, though).
I can't "afford" to buy directly from GW.
By that, I mean, I could do it, but the prices are so high that it would be a bad budget choice.

Without knowing your details, the "below poverty line" doesn't hold a lot of water.

A 17 year old kid making $10K a year living with Mom and Dad doesn't typically have enough bills to be concerned about that stuff (for example).

EXALT.

Hobbymaterial definetly yes.
Scenery is out of range to any competitor, never bought any glue or terrain material from gw.

Those Miniatures I've got came at a workable price, but my collected armies have lots of plastics in.
Always looked at the Catalog for box-price to compare with "ready-sets" like XXXbattleforce.
Sometimes a 80€ set had up to 120€ minis and tanks,gives me another 40€ (spent for more minis).

IMHO it depends on your chosen armylist how expensive it gets. armoured?

For modelling reasons, i must agree with Augustus. GW's level of detail is in need of improvement and
a 30 part model can stay easy at basic kit,but be upgraded by army specific sprues to higher level.
I hope they redo the Leman Russ at the coming IG release.

Howard A Treesong wrote:But they do offer high quality? Well most of the time. I do get a bit concerned about this 'mould-slippage' they seem to get, I don't know why it happens or how figures with such large amount of flash or a step in them pass quality control, but it makes me check everything before buying. Their larger metal models are a concern. Their LOTR Balrog and Nazgul miniatures are particularly poor with a lot of work required in building, cutting and filling, you expect better for £40.

That's my main complaint about FW. I don't mind paying a premium if the product is quality. If you want to talk about overpriced and poor customer service, talk about FW. But even though I think it's expensive, I love both FW and GW stuff and will continue to buy it. So long as the market wil patronize the company, it's technically not over-priced.

Augustus wrote:I also thought necron destroyers and Tau suits are awfully overpriced. Maybe that's because I'm also a real modeler. Please don't see this as a flame, it's not intended as such! Of course I think GW modeling and figure painting is real modeling. I just mean... well say a real "world" modeler, real world kits, say from tamiya, hasegawawa or Ban Dai. They are like priced to GWs by kit by approximate size, but it is a quality issue. Those kits (non GW) come with colored plastic, hundreds of parts, options in some cases, rubber poly caps, rubber pieces, metal (chromed) finishing for some sprues and more for about the same price and are even imported too. I know GW models are intentionally simpler as they are essentially game pieces, not models as such, but from a modeler's perspective, they have an inferior product in many cases and the demand like prices or a premium.

Just as much as a real modeler might just green-stuff their entire army. That would be a real modeler. I started with regular models, and more pieces doesn't mean better product. And I don't see there being anything simpler about GW models. Regular models are considerably flimsier because they're not build to be played with. Because of this they can make finer details which are more fragile. GW does an excellent job of making interesting models which are durable.

MagickalMemories wrote:Just because the cost of one company's product is similar to the cost of another company's product, that doesn't automatically qualify one as fairly priced. I potentially qualifies both as overpriced.

Great point!

Hobby supplies prices are rediculous. I like the paints, so I'm stuck with those. Prices for figs? What else 'ya going to do? I like 'em, thank the gods that I worked for GW and got all I wanted with that sweet 60% employee discount. Honestly, I have not bought a box or blister since '05. I'm happy picking up old models on ebay for pennies on the dollar or trading for stuff that I want. Althought they did get me with the 25th Anniv. products; but that was a t-shirt, figure case and dice.

I was just thinking back to the Jervis Johnson Q&A - Gen Con 2005. And from a business perspective, GW aims to encourage army building & collecting as their revenue source. So it's not really a surprise that the supplied miniatures in the new box set are a great value, they're designed to get you in the door so you buy the more expensive stuff. Which make me believe they could benefit from offering a cheap starter army for every race (not just the supplied Orks and SM).

Le Grognard wrote:I worked for GW and got all I wanted with that sweet 60% employee discount.

Okay, I'm definitely turning in an application beforeI pick up my next army!

It's telling when you have forgeworld products, that you can use as elite infantry or some small vehicles, that cost as much as their GW equivalents.

I don't agree with the point about 20 cadians blah blah. There is a reason those models cost that much. You are forgetting that for the most part, GW prices in the ~.25 USD/~.12 pound per point - ~.35 USD / .18 pound per point. Like I said, they price so that each army costs relatively the same amount, regardless of how many models it is. The one thing that surprised me was the cheapness of bloodletters coming in at .18 USD/.9 pounds per point. In reality, if you compare the space marine plastics to the cadian or CSM plastics, the cadians and CSM far outweigh the space marines in the amount of detail and plastic necessary. However, if space marines were any cheaper, it would be cheaper to build a full SM army. If you do the math for just about every army, the total cost comes out about the same for each one, regardless of model count (assuming 45-50% of the army is made of plastics).

So I can't agree with the people claiming "no" when models are purposely priced so there are no "cheap armies" but only expensive ones. Otherwise, low detail, low material models like Space Marine tactical squads wouldn't cost the same as CSM or Cadians.

The OP’s question is horrible. Are we supposed to answer based on our personal circumstances, or viewed from GW’s perspective. Is it relative to other entertainment in general, or relative to other miniatures companies? Or just on some general notion of value?

Personally, by my personal circumstances, GW stuff isn’t overpriced. It takes me a couple of hours to paint a typical model and I then use it in countless games. It works out to a few dollars an hour, which is a lot less than other hobbies I’d take up instead (hookers and blow, probably). By that standard, then no, GW is not over priced.

But I know of a fair few people who look at the price of a few boxes of troops and decide to steer well clear. The buy-in is too great and I think price increases are a direct cause of GW’s poor performance in recent years. So, if you’re asking if prices are too high in terms of GW’s own profit making focus, then yes, they are.

Or are you asking relative to other hobbies? I can buy a roleplaying book for $50, and that one book will be enough for me and my mates to play for 20 years. Or I can play cricket, and spend $350 on a bat that’ll last the year, plus around $500 on other gear that’ll average about two. Or I can build model airplanes and probably have to mortgage the house. So by that standard the answer is ‘sort of’

Or relative to other miniature games? GW is about priced equally to other games, relative to quality – there’s certainly cheaper miniatures but they tend to be lower quality, and there’s certainly superior models but they to be more expensive. The GW trick is that no other game requires you to collect so many quality miniatures to play a standard game, most other games have much smaller model counts. So that by that standard, GW might be overpriced, depending on whether you look at the dollars to value from hobby or gaming perspective.

Or do you just want to say ‘$40 for three plastic sprues’ – how can they justify that? Considering that for that price you can get some pretty advanced electronics with a hell of a lot more manufacturing work than you get in a box of marines, you better believe GW is overpriced by that standard. But then, that argument ignores the reality that the majority of the costs of production are in design, marketing and retail, and so the primary costs of anything hitting the market these days are fixed - price is ultimately dependant on the quantity sold, not the quality of the product itself. And that ultimately, it doesn’t matter what you’re buying, what matters is its value to you.

Without properly defining the context of the question it can’t be properly answered.

sebster wrote:...But I know of a fair few people who look at the price of a few boxes of troops and decide to steer well clear. The buy-in is too great and I think price increases are a direct cause of GW’s poor performance in recent years. So, if you’re asking if prices are too high in terms of GW’s own profit making focus, then yes, they are.

Your entire post was good, but this was a great point. I don't bother trying to bring in new people anymore (unless they show a genuine interest in the fluff). How do you explain to somebody that just for them to get started proper (ie full rule book and 500pt army) that they'll need to spend 125$ right at the door? Let alone explain that there is the hobby side of it as well (some people just want to play and don't care about the modeling aspect).

I believe that the metal models are slightly over priced. If you have a look at the price of a land raider or monolith and look at the points they are the same, just as a squad of 10 orks and their relative price. You have to remember that a GW shop only makes it money from selling those products and they needto pay rent, staff, power, the products, display models, free bees and so on.

Squig_herder wrote:You have to remember that a GW shop only makes it money from selling those products and they needto pay rent, staff, power, the products, display models, free bees and so on.

If they aren't breaking even by raising prices to offset capital costs, then their business model is "unsustainable".

GW's huge retail overhead is the main brake on their profitability IMO.

Back in the days when they sold other games and figures as well as WHFB and WH40K, a lot of different types of customers would go in the shop to spend money.

keezus wrote:

Squig_herder wrote:You have to remember that a GW shop only makes it money from selling those products and they needto pay rent, staff, power, the products, display models, free bees and so on.

If they aren't breaking even by raising prices to offset capital costs, then their business model is "unsustainable".

I could do without the GW stores. I don't like thier staff and it's just a big company hurting the flgs. I understand the idea of battle bunkers, the two I've gone to are very cool. Want to cut cost? Shut down all the GW stores and open a battle bunker in each state.

I voted no.

New kits--very cool work being done on the new kits. Worth it.

Older Figs--You can get these on ebay. Just give yourself a couple weeks to find what you are looking for.

Modeling stuff--Yes of course the GW stuff is overpriced, but if you know that, then you don't buy it.

sebster wrote:The OP’s question is horrible. Are we supposed to answer based on our personal circumstances, or viewed from GW’s perspective. Is it relative to other entertainment in general, or relative to other miniatures companies? Or just on some general notion of value?

Personally, by my personal circumstances, GW stuff isn’t overpriced. It takes me a couple of hours to paint a typical model and I then use it in countless games. It works out to a few dollars an hour, which is a lot less than other hobbies I’d take up instead (hookers and blow, probably). By that standard, then no, GW is not over priced.

But I know of a fair few people who look at the price of a few boxes of troops and decide to steer well clear. The buy-in is too great and I think price increases are a direct cause of GW’s poor performance in recent years. So, if you’re asking if prices are too high in terms of GW’s own profit making focus, then yes, they are.

Or are you asking relative to other hobbies? I can buy a roleplaying book for $50, and that one book will be enough for me and my mates to play for 20 years. Or I can play cricket, and spend $350 on a bat that’ll last the year, plus around $500 on other gear that’ll average about two. Or I can build model airplanes and probably have to mortgage the house. So by that standard the answer is ‘sort of’

Or relative to other miniature games? GW is about priced equally to other games, relative to quality – there’s certainly cheaper miniatures but they tend to be lower quality, and there’s certainly superior models but they to be more expensive. The GW trick is that no other game requires you to collect so many quality miniatures to play a standard game, most other games have much smaller model counts. So that by that standard, GW might be overpriced, depending on whether you look at the dollars to value from hobby or gaming perspective.

Or do you just want to say ‘$40 for three plastic sprues’ – how can they justify that? Considering that for that price you can get some pretty advanced electronics with a hell of a lot more manufacturing work than you get in a box of marines, you better believe GW is overpriced by that standard. But then, that argument ignores the reality that the majority of the costs of production are in design, marketing and retail, and so the primary costs of anything hitting the market these days are fixed - price is ultimately dependant on the quantity sold, not the qualhttp://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp
open them in a new windowity of the product itself. And that ultimately, it doesn’t matter what you’re buying, what matters is its value to you.

Without properly defining the context of the question it can’t be properly answered.

How is it stupid? Economically speaking, GW prices are outrageous. If you knew anything about economics, you would know about consumer surplus and you would know that some people have no problem paying high prices. But the market clearing price is very wrong. And are you to believe that "design, marketing, and retail" costs are that high? What sort of marketing and retail do you think GW has? They have no marketing aside from in-store and hobby shop. Their "design" is simply the input of a dozen artists and sculptors. Electronics actually have HIGH design, research, and marketing costs, and still are reasonably priced because of competition. GW is simply a competitive monopoly who use their fluff and reputation to charge ridiculous prices for their goods.

shoey9797 wrote:What sort of marketing and retail do you think GW has? They have no marketing aside from in-store and hobby shop. Their "design" is simply the input of a dozen artists and sculptors. Electronics actually have HIGH design, research, and marketing costs, and still are reasonably priced because of competition. GW is simply a competitive monopoly who use their fluff and reputation to charge ridiculous prices for their goods.

Two problems;
1) GW has no marketing? Are you kidding? They're present at every major con, any gamer magazine has ads for them. And GamesDay is nothing but a huge commercial. They have an entire magazine which carries they name and product.
2) Production increase drastically reduces per unit price, true. But GW can't just make more models and hope a market exists to consume them. I work in the semiconductor field, our facility is one of many, and we ship a million chips a week. But they go into every product from phones to cars. Commodities markets fluctuate according to demand and regularly change in value. I wish GW was big enough to be a commodity producer, sacrifice some quality and vola! You have 10 figs for 10 bucks.

Personally I think it depends on what you are buying. Some of the mini's (Terminators for instance) are *really* badly overpriced, and most of the hobby stuff (flock, clippers, etc) is too. However most of their mini's aren't any more expensive than Privateer and other companies, and those that are noticeably cheaper are usually simpler models.

I found making a 2000pt Battlefleet Gothic force to be rather cheap ($100 exactly) for 8 cruisers and two grand cruisers, along with a downloadable rulebook from GW wasn't bad at all, the B5 game seemed about the same price but without the free rulebook.

jabbakahut wrote:Your entire post was good, but this was a great point. I don't bother trying to bring in new people anymore (unless they show a genuine interest in the fluff). How do you explain to somebody that just for them to get started proper (ie full rule book and 500pt army) that they'll need to spend 125$ right at the door? Let alone explain that there is the hobby side of it as well (some people just want to play and don't care about the modeling aspect).

Yeah, with a price freeze for a few years, some cool intro box sets and a fun variant game that works with low unit numbers, I think most of GW's woes could be fixed.

Although, to be honest, if you don't enjoy the hobby side I don't GW could ever provide value for money. Better of just getting DoW in that case.

shoey9797 wrote:How is it stupid? Economically speaking, GW prices are outrageous. If you knew anything about economics, you would know about consumer surplus and you would know that some people have no problem paying high prices. But the market clearing price is very wrong. And are you to believe that "design, marketing, and retail" costs are that high? What sort of marketing and retail do you think GW has? They have no marketing aside from in-store and hobby shop. Their "design" is simply the input of a dozen artists and sculptors. Electronics actually have HIGH design, research, and marketing costs, and still are reasonably priced because of competition. GW is simply a competitive monopoly who use their fluff and reputation to charge ridiculous prices for their goods.

Did you read my post, or just skim through posts looking for someone who might be disagreeing with you?

It's a poor question because it can be legitimately answered in a lot of different ways. 'No, they're not overpriced as I can afford it and all my other hobbies cost lots more'. 'Yes, they're overpriced because you're paying $50 for three plastic sprues.' 'Yes, they're overpriced because I know of lots of people who'd happily buy GW armies if they were a bit cheaper.'

Each possible answer can lead to a whole new debate, but at this point we're all talking past each other because we're answering the question from many different angles.

By the way, don't use market clearing to analyse a single firm. It's used to examine a whole market, with the assumption that any individual firm cannot meaningfully adjust supply (and so is stuck being a price taker). It can't be used to examine a single company, as it works on the concept 'with fixed production of 10,000 units a day we should set the price at $1 to sell 10,000 units'. But GW is capable of changing its production quantity by as much as it wants, making any analysis on that grounds useless.

Oh, and GW isn't a monopoly as there are other miniatures companies. GW is a dominant firm and as such the situation is quite different.

I avoided calling folks when they were throwing around the terms earlier, but then you suggested I knew nothing about economics, while getting some really basic concepts quite wrong.

And yeah, GW's cost are primarily in retail and marketing. That's a reality for just about any company selling consumer goods in the modern economy... The comparison is a basic electronic device, like a calculator, which is cheaper and vastly more complex. Thing is, that calculator isn't being sold in a store in the main retail section of town.

Kilkrazy wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Huh? At recent exchange rates of 1 GBP = 2 USD, you say Pig Iron is $28 USD for 10 models?

That's the same as what I pay the War Store for 10 Space Marines (10 SM for $28), and *twice* as much as what I pay for Imperial Guard (20 IG for $28).

If you want to make the claim that GW is more expensive comparing generic infantry, you need to compare with the 20-man boxes of plastic Cadians and Catachans. Relatively speaking, those are very well-priced.

So far, all you've done is demonstrate that GW is a better deal than non-GW.

If Pig Iron really were 1/5 the price of GW, then I could get 100 Pig Iron infantry for the same $28 USD / 14 GBP. Is that what you meant to type ("100)", but you dropped a zero ("10")?

I didn't say Pig Iron were 1/5 the price of GW. The Pig Iron figures are metal, and slightly cheaper per individual figure than plastic GW. For example, plastic Tau Fire Warriors = £18 for 12. Most individual metal GW figures are £2-£3 each.

Compare Fire Warriors with Perry Brothers ACW which are £12 for 36 figures.

BTW you can't directly compare £10 retail price with $20 since the £10 includes VAT at 17.5%. Untaxed, the £10 would cost £8.51 which at current exchange rate ($1.97 to £1) is $16.76, add 5% sales tax = $17.60.

Metal vs plastic makes no difference to the consumer - all that matters is model counts per dollar (or pound). If you want to use Pig Iron, I'm again going to point to Cadians and Catachans which are less than 1 GBP per model (20 models for 18 GBP). If you need to deliberately choosing a lower model-count box (Tau / SM) to make your point, then perhaps your point isn't that good.

Focusing on GW metals is very strange, as GW is primarily selling plastic models. It's like trying to discuss why any other lower-volume product costs more than the mass-market product from any other given manufacturer. If you want to say that GW metal costs more than GW plastic, that's fine.

If you're going to use non-heroic historical ACW models as your reference point, then you need to again reference to something closer within the GW range, such as LotR plastics.

Similarly, VAT is irrelevant. That $20 USD typically incurs a sales tax of 5 to 10%, and is paid for with post-tax dollars (income tax and payroll tax).

MagickalMemories wrote:GW models (GW EVERYTHING) are overpriced.

For those that say, "Compared to other companies, they're not," or something similar, I offer this:

Most other companies are overpriced, as well.

Just because the cost of one company's product is similar to the cost of another company's product, that doesn't automatically qualify one as fairly priced. I potentially qualifies both as overpriced.

You can't say Gasoline is fairly priced because every other retailer in the market offers similar pricing. You can only say thqt it's no more expensive than it is at "the other place."

Pretty much by definition, as a commodity product, gasoline *must* be fairly priced. It may be more expensive than what you *want* to pay, but that's no measure of it being unfairly priced.

And it's the same with GW or other models.

Nobody forces you to buy minis. If you get fewer minis, that's probably because the cost of gasoline has gone up in the interim.

And by no means has GW minis prices gone up like gasoline... I remember $1 gas, so gas has gone up 5x. So relatively speaking, GW minis are awfully cheap, considering they haven't even doubled yet...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Metal vs plastic makes no difference to the consumer - all that matters is model counts per dollar (or pound). If you want to use Pig Iron, I'm again going to point to Cadians and Catachans which are less than 1 GBP per model (20 models for 18 GBP). If you need to deliberately choosing a lower model-count box (Tau / SM) to make your point, then perhaps your point isn't that good.

Focusing on GW metals is very strange, as GW is primarily selling plastic models. It's like trying to discuss why any other lower-volume product costs more than the mass-market product from any other given manufacturer. If you want to say that GW metal costs more than GW plastic, that's fine.

If you're going to use non-heroic historical ACW models as your reference point, then you need to again reference to something closer within the GW range, such as LotR plastics.

Similarly, VAT is irrelevant. That $20 USD typically incurs a sales tax of 5 to 10%, and is paid for with post-tax dollars (income tax and payroll tax).

I accounted for sales tax, giving a worked example.

If you want to include the effect of take home pay, the USA has a relatively low rate of income and social tax compared to the UK and Europe. If we get into that area, we need to look at pay rates in different countries, and international purchasing power parity calculations, which is very boring.

You say that users don't care if a model is plastic or metal. Many users do care, they percieve metal to have a higher value, justifying a higher price.

You pick Cadians as an example of cheap plastics. I offer Terminators as an example of expensive plastics. I note that Cadians are about 2-3 times more expensive per figure than historical plastic figures of 25-28mm scale.

I don't really understand what you are arguing about. It is absolutely clear that GW models are priced well above the level of similar models (it makes no difference if they are "heroic" or plastic or metal) from a number of historical and SF manufacturers.

The only models that are similar in price are specialist ranges such as Infinity, Warcaster and Hordes (I don't know those games.) They are games that were born and are dragged in the slipstream of GW. They have the same concept of a game with unique IP, fluff and dedicated rules and miniatures. It is the whole bundle that attracts players. This works differently to historicals -- where players are used to buying figures from one company, rules from another, uniform guides from a third, campaign guides from a fourth and so on -- and it helps explain the price difference.

The fact that the LoTR figures are cheaper than 40K and WHFB shows that GW could price figures lower. (Let's not talk about production costs of smaller figures. We both know the amount of material in a 25mm versus a 28mm figure makes no practical difference compared to the other costs.)

The reason GW prices the 40K models at the current level is because players keep buying them. It's the same with Infinity and those other games. The "bundle" nature of the game and the attractiveness of the IP enable the producer to command a premium price.

This can go wrong. Rackham apparently overdid it and priced itself out of the market. They had to file for the French equivalent of Chapter 11 protection.

However, as I said in my first post, I do not consider GW figures over-priced. They are selling at roughly the marker clearing rate. This is the correct price in economic terms.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Pretty much by definition, as a commodity product, gasoline *must* be fairly priced. It may be more expensive than what you *want* to pay, but that's no measure of it being unfairly priced.

You're saying fair pricing is whatever the market can bare? And OPEC is a cartel which determines prices and the companies all agree to charge the same relative price. Gas isn't a fair market because they don't compete with each other. Not to mention that nobody else produces GW miniatures, sure there are other games companies. Let's see what happens to the price if their IP became public domain.

Kilkrazy wrote:The fact that the LoTR figures are cheaper than 40K and WHFB shows that GW could price figures lower. (Let's not talk about production costs of smaller figures. We both know the amount of material in a 25mm versus a 28mm figure makes no practical difference compared to the other costs.)

On a per unit scale the price may be negligible. But .01$ of plastic multiplied by 10 million units is a cost savings of 100K. And the LotR figures are less detailed.

I was wrong about the B&M stores, according to the 2007 prospectus they account for half of the GW revenue.
*information from GW corp site
(which provides tons of interesting information)

jabbakahut wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Pretty much by definition, as a commodity product, gasoline *must* be fairly priced. It may be more expensive than what you *want* to pay, but that's no measure of it being unfairly priced.

You're saying fair pricing is whatever the market can bare? And OPEC is a cartel which determines prices and the companies all agree to charge the same relative price. Gas isn't a fair market because they don't compete with each other.

Not to mention that nobody else produces GW miniatures, sure there are other games companies. Let's see what happens to the price if their IP became public domain.

If the price is truly unfair and overpriced, people won't pay it. Demand will drop, creating a relative oversupply, and lowering prices. That is what market pricing does. And as these are commodities, then by definition, the market price *is* the fair price. To argue otherwise belies basic economics.

And OPEC doesn't determine all of the prices. Not every seller follows OPEC guidelines. Some choose to produce more, for greater income. Some countries subsidize or tax. Plus, there are are refineries that add value and cost, along with a distribution chain that leads to additional variation. No, gas is a very fair market. It's just that you're not happy dealing with the fact that it's a limited resource that traditionally has been managed very poorly, and therefore grossly underpriced.

Given that GW simply follows IP / Copyright laws, their IP will *never* become public domain. Disney created their IP long before GW, and their lawyers will *never* allow a lapse in copyright resulting in any of their IP to ever become public Therefore, GW has nothing to worry about.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If the price is truly unfair and overpriced, people won't pay it. Demand will drop, creating a relative oversupply, and lowering prices. That is what market pricing does. And as these are commodities, then by definition, the market price *is* the fair price. To argue otherwise belies basic economics.

Plastic miniatures are not a commodity. A Ferrari is a luxory, by your logic a Ferrari could never be un-fairly priced because someone will always buy it.

It's true, this entire argument is flawed. What you consider to be a fair price for you to enjoy a luxury; cannot be ubiquitous.

Economics has nothing to do with fairness. That is why it is called the "dismal science".

There are plenty of model figures costing less than GW. People can go and buy them if they want to.

jabbakahut wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If the price is truly unfair and overpriced, people won't pay it. Demand will drop, creating a relative oversupply, and lowering prices. That is what market pricing does. And as these are commodities, then by definition, the market price *is* the fair price. To argue otherwise belies basic economics.

Plastic miniatures are not a commodity.

A Ferrari is a luxory, by your logic a Ferrari could never be un-fairly priced because someone will always buy it.

It's true, this entire argument is flawed. What you consider to be a fair price for you to enjoy a luxury; cannot be ubiquitous.

Gas, however, is, which is what I was specifically responding to, as I quoted.

A Ferrari is a luxury, but it is still affected by market forces. Specifically, Ferraris are limited by the number of people who can afford to spend $200k+ on a new car. This is not a large market, and Ferrari isn't the only manufacturer of automobiles in this category. Yes, the very rich are less affected by price than us mortals. But market forces still have impact.

But yes, the entire argument is flawed. I'd completely agree with that.

As above, I would generally consider a market-set price to be fair. If it's higher than what I can afford, I don't buy it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Given that GW simply follows IP / Copyright laws, their IP will *never* become public domain. Disney created their IP long before GW, and their lawyers will *never* allow a lapse in copyright resulting in any of their IP to ever become public Therefore, GW has nothing to worry about.

I know that Disney lawyers are working really hard to punish infringement but their copyrighted material will enter the public domain as their lobbyists cannot guarantee an extended copyright protection worldwide again and again. They many have managed to "protect" Disney IP until now but you can't just extrapolate that into the future for the sake of your argument.

Games Workshop has to worry about this although not for a long time. I think 120 years from the date of creation or publication (whichever is shorter counts) at the moment.

I just wish that I could buy a 3000 pt army for less than a thousand dollars thank you very much... (barring of course the apocalypse sets) And while I find their paints are of good quality compared to the other stuff I have bought (especially those wicked washes... those things make painting so bloody quick!) That I only ever use their paints, even for my WW II models.(Flames of War and 1:72 Scale vehicles and aircraft)

Though I do beleive that thier plastics are to expensive for what you get... a decent 1500 pt 40k army costs you around 400+ dollars. While a decent 2000 pt Warhammer army costs you around 600 dollars. I could very easily buy good napoleanics at the same scale for half the price... Or Romans for that matter.

Mario wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Given that GW simply follows IP / Copyright laws, their IP will *never* become public domain. Disney created their IP long before GW, and their lawyers will *never* allow a lapse in copyright resulting in any of their IP to ever become public Therefore, GW has nothing to worry about.

I know that Disney lawyers are working really hard to punish infringement but their copyrighted material will enter the public domain as their lobbyists cannot guarantee an extended copyright protection worldwide again and again. They many have managed to "protect" Disney IP until now but you can't just extrapolate that into the future for the sake of your argument.

Games Workshop has to worry about this although not for a long time. I think 120 years from the date of creation or publication (whichever is shorter counts) at the moment.

For a corporation it's 90 years from the copyright date. For an individual it's 70 years from the date of the creator's death.

Disney managed to get the extension to 90 years to protect Mickey Mouse, who has a copyright date of (I think) 1928. This means MM will pass into the public domain in 2018. Disney's lawyers are probably preparing their next copyright extension ampaign right now. Who knows if it will succeed.

Some people think copyright should last indefinitely. Others think it already lasts longer than it needs to.

jabbakahut wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The fact that the LoTR figures are cheaper than 40K and WHFB shows that GW could price figures lower. (Let's not talk about production costs of smaller figures. We both know the amount of material in a 25mm versus a 28mm figure makes no practical difference compared to the other costs.)

On a per unit scale the price may be negligible. But .01$ of plastic multiplied by 10 million units is a cost savings of 100K. And the LotR figures are less detailed.

I was wrong about the B&M stores, according to the 2007 prospectus they account for half of the GW revenue.
*information from GW corp site
(which provides tons of interesting information)

I don't really understand your argument.

Are you saying that a 40K figure costs 1 cent more to make than an LoTR figure so it should be priced 2 cents higher, to be a fair price, something like that?

sebster wrote:

By the way, don't use market clearing to analyse a single firm. It's used to examine a whole market, with the assumption that any individual firm cannot meaningfully adjust supply (and so is stuck being a price taker). It can't be used to examine a single company, as it works on the concept 'with fixed production of 10,000 units a day we should set the price at $1 to sell 10,000 units'. But GW is capable of changing its production quantity by as much as it wants, making any analysis on that grounds useless.

Oh, and GW isn't a monopoly as there are other miniatures companies. GW is a dominant firm and as such the situation is quite different.

I argue that GW is a monopoly supplier of 40K stuff.

The price of 40K figures cannot be explained by reference to the overall wargame miniature market. There is a very wide variety of figures from different makers, and most of them are significantly cheaper. If price of figures was the determining factor in sales, GW would not be selling anything.

As such we can examine the 40K market for the clearing price.

Kilkrazy wrote:

jabbakahut wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:We both know the amount of material in a 25mm versus a 28mm figure makes no practical difference compared to the other costs.

On a per unit scale the price may be negligible. But .01$ of plastic multiplied by 10 million units is a cost savings of 100K.

I don't really understand your argument.

Sorry I wasn't clear, see your bolded statement above, I'm saying you are wrong, cost of plastic is a factor.

OK, I understand your point.

Yes, it is true that a bigger figure has more raw materials in it.

However, GW do not reflect this in their pricing. For example 12 Tau Fire Warriors cost the same as 20 Cadian IG.

By GW's own estimation, raw materials account for under 3% of the cost of a model. With production cost of a model being relatively small, it is not worth accouting for the even smaller fraction of the cost made up by the materials.

I, too, feel the question has been presented poorly, and a blanket "Yes" or "No" is not a useful answer. There are GW kits that feel like they're worth the cost, and others that feel like ripoffs (old metal characters come to mind as a particularly vivid example).

For the sake of simplicity, there are 2 answers. I wasn't going to make a poll for each GW line. And I completely agree with killcrazy. That is where I was coming from. Raw materials cannot possibly be the source of GW pricing because kits with a TON of plastic can cost less than kits with little.

So either you think GW prices fairly, or they don't price fairly. Maybe the question should have been fairness not over-priced.

[quote=Kilkrazy
I argue that GW is a monopoly supplier of 40K stuff.

mikhaila wrote:[quote=Kilkrazy
I argue that GW is a monopoly supplier of 40K stuff.

How so? Any manufacturer can then be claimed to have a monopoly on their product. Budweiser is a monopoly supplier of Budwieser beer. Mcdonalds has a monopoly on Big Mac's. etc etc. WOTC is a monopoly supplier of MTG.

Kilkrazy wrote:
What is your explanation for why GW figures cost such a lot and keep selling?

Simple answer: Demand

Medium answer: I don't think they cost a lot, compared to the amount of money that the people buying them have. It's excess money, same as the hundreds of dollars a year they spend on pizza, video games, beer, cigarettes, and movies. They choose to spend it on gaming, and they like the GW games, or the GW models, or the GW fluff, or a combination of all 3. Or maybe just playing the game that their friends are playing. GW isn't competing for the dollars they need for food or shelter.

Long answer: No time, off to work to sell a bunch of GW stuff to customers, sculpt some beards on my Ork Pirates, and put some hours into a Nurgle Plaguetower.

Goodness this is another sad strange bashing fest that seems so popular...

3 main points that pop out at me:

1. The hobby supplies (glue etc...) are somewhat more expensive than what you can get elsewhere- but its a matter of convienience- you can get it there and then instead of another trip. Its why a small bottle of coke costs £1.50 at the train station on my way to work where it is convienient, while for £1 I can buy a much bigger bottle from a slightly less convienent supermarket

2. The "old prices" arguement.
The "I coudl buy 3 rhinos for £10" arguement I hear all the time... how long ago was that?
first of all the models are (i'm sure you'll agree) a wee bit better. I was looking at some of my old stuff, and anyone who claims that they are just as good need to hand over their rose-tinted specs

If you take into account inflation- alot of the sets GW produces have kind of settled- the £18 boxes that are the norm right now replaced £15 boxes an age ago (anyone give the exact time- i know its many many years)
In that time- so so many things have raised in price. I used to be able to go to a movie for £5, now it costs me £12
I could travel to and from work for £3.50 per week, that now only buys me a day ticket
and don't even get me started on petrol.

In the grand scheme of things, GW has raised the prices slightly to remain profitable, but have remained pretty indifferent to inflation- its part of being a niche market that allows them to do so.

Finally my 3rd point is that whole profit margin.
Yes if you take the raw materials and such- a set of plastic guys is dirt cheap...
however where did you buy it?
Indie retailers have their own issues of costs and profits etc...
GW direct- probably the best bet for GW for profit in that they are paying for their HQ, the shipping and the bloke on the phone

As for GW stores- these are incredible that they function- and alot barely make a profit- but they remain open because GW wants them to be in place to recruit people into the hobby and provide a service that isn't avalible anywhere else.

Now I understand that over in the states, you guys don't have as many GW stores, and they are pretty far and wide- but to give the example here in the UK-
GW stores will give you somewhere to play, usually with friendly staff (theres always some bad apples but tell me one place where there isn't) who will be willing to help you out with anything you need (painting tips, modeling tips, army building etc...)
alot of people fail to see the service those guys provide because its not something they are interested in or believe in or worse case---- don't even know it exists.
Yet it does exist, it takes place, its provided and has to be paid for. That is where GW spends a hell of alot of their money and that is what sets GW apart from everyone else- their own stores that are run not just to sell their products but most importantly to SUPPORT them.

Bignutter wrote:If you take into account inflation- alot of the sets GW produces have kind of settled- the £18 boxes that are the norm right now replaced £15 boxes an age ago (anyone give the exact time- i know its many many years)
In that time- so so many things have raised in price. I used to be able to go to a movie for £5, now it costs me £12
I could travel to and from work for £3.50 per week, that now only buys me a day ticket
and don't even get me started on petrol.

In the grand scheme of things, GW has raised the prices slightly to remain profitable, but have remained pretty indifferent to inflation- its part of being a niche market that allows them to do so.

If you take into inflation, but they are indifferent to inflation? Not sure of your argument here, but don't kid yourself, GW price increses have nothing to do with inflaction, the Skeleton boxset now £18 started at £10. The Rhinos have received a recent resculpt, but the originals were finally taken off sale at £15, which is a jump from 3 for £10 even if it was a long time ago. And boy was that Rhino mould tired (but that's for the miniature quality thread).

Finally my 3rd point is that whole profit margin.
Yes if you take the raw materials and such- a set of plastic guys is dirt cheap...
however where did you buy it?
Indie retailers have their own issues of costs and profits etc...
GW direct- probably the best bet for GW for profit in that they are paying for their HQ, the shipping and the bloke on the phone

As for GW stores- these are incredible that they function- and alot barely make a profit- but they remain open because GW wants them to be in place to recruit people into the hobby and provide a service that isn't avalible anywhere else.

GW have massive overheads because of their city-centre shops, they must cost an absolute fortune to maintain. They keep them there for a highstreet presence because they wouldn't get the custom online and would be fighting every other manufacturer on an equal footing. The company has been losing money in recent years. But it's always the same, they see they are losing money so jack the prices up, people buy less or are put off altogether. So they jack the prices up again because they are taking less money. It's a bad business model and ultimately not sustainable. If they actually lowered the prices they may well turn over a lot more stock and take more money, simple price rises are proven not to be the solution.

"I wish my hobby was cheaper, but it has not yet become too expensive. " - too right!

I voted yes, to me I wish it was cheaper. However as poeple have already spoken

GAMESWORKSHOP IS NOT OVER PRICED. GW sells models and supplies at a huge profit, however people still buy said products so they are not over priced, simply more towards expensive. If they were over priced they would not sell. Plastic tanks etc - compared to buying a tank from say air fix, yes they are several times more money. However, it is a different product. You wouldn't compared the price of eggs to that of a holiday in space.....

an airfix tank, is a lightweight, fragile display peice. A gw tank is a more robust gaming piece. Don't believe me? check out the thinkness of the plastic. You could stand on several gw tanks without causing them too much damage if they're put together correctly, do that to an airfix tank?

Plastic figures are now the price of old metal ones, yet people buy them. If they were overpriced they wouldn't be bought, and remember we're still buying in a time of high inflation, the money going on them is disposable, if you don't have it you don't buy. Yet they sell, so the value for money isn't overpriced, it's just not cheap. It may only cost pennies to make, but if you could sell your house for what it cost, or 2000% more what would you do? GW is abusiness, when people stop buying their products they will lower the cost.

As for the 54mm comments that they are inferior, remember this and other speacialist games are a sideline, and so wont usually have the top sculptors working on them anyway. They're there to provide a 'holiday' when someone becomes tired of the main games. If you're into the 40k fluff (hamster dead!) but want a break, gw supply you with a 40k break - bfg, so instead of playing warmachine for a bit or whatever, they still have a chance of keeping you as a loyal customer, and guess what, it works, meaning that the other companies not only have GW as a competitor, but that GW will also be 2nd choice for many gamers, it's not just the one barrier, it's two barriers.

Compared to hornby, if anything it's cheaper, anyone seen the price of a train these days? Yes te scenics may be cheaper, but what goods a good board without anything on it?

White Dwarf - I had a good look at opther mags yesterday, the one's that interested me as a 40K player, were either the same or double the cost! In fact the only one i was tempted to buy was £8, wds £4. not going to happen. Yes the quality is better, but £8 for me really is too expensive. I really wish WD was better, but then again I won't pay £4 for it, I wont pay for the PVA and most of the GW tools and brushes. That makes these, and only these items overpriced, but for me, not for the market.

I'd like GW to be cheaper, but it's not and I still pay. tuff luck. Don't like it, don't play it, find another hobby.

GW will keep razing prices until they start seeing sales volume nose dive as a result. With a shrinking marketplace that is all they can do to maintain revenue.

City center shops operate on the 1 in 1000 principal. That is to say that one in every thousand who walk into the shop may become a new FANATICAL customer. It's the same principal used in direct mail marketing. These shops need to be in high traffic areas like city centers because only there will they see the volume of people.

A fanatical customer is GWs bread and butter... You... Me... We pretty much will buy anything GW produces regardless of price. Take Forgeworld for example. GW releases Apocalypse with all the latest greatest super heavy rules. Next thing you know FW has to put a caveat on the website explaining that due to increased demand you will have to wait 30 days for your 300 dollar Baineblade. Don't complain if you choose next day shipping and it takes a month to arrive.

All this talk of supply and demand and production cost does not really apply to GWs business model. Its more about economies of scale and customer loyalty. Plastic army men are 5 dollars a bag at the 5 and 10.

Just wait and see how many new horde armies start appearing in game clubs after the release of 5th.

The real question is "Do YOU spend too much on plastic army men?" The price of the minis has little to do with the answer. You would just buy more.

Don’t drink and shop GW/FW online is my best advice.

-beef

I don't think they're overpriced. Sure, it is pricey but it's a pricey hobby. And even the "cheaper" other games like warmachine are getting pricey too. I make a very average income and I still manage to get my GW fix and keep all my bills paid. If I can do it, I'm sure other folks can. It just seems to me the people that cry the loudest about the prices are the obsessed folks that have to fill their closet space with unopened boxes of army men that they "will get to someday". Buy what you need when you need it, instead of everything all at once. I allow myself $50 a month for gaming stuff. Doesn't seem like much but it's really all I need. And when there's something special like the baneblade, I can still afford it because I don't sink every spare penny into the hobby... or I can save my $50 from the previous month and blow it on something bigger the following month.

I play Hordemachine as well.

The big selling point in getting me into that was my friends saying "The rules cost $20 and a starter set is like $40! It cost tons less than GW!"

Then the second book came out..then the third. I was like "Guys, this is just as bad as GW, you only say its not because you have an "us against them" attitude."

The reply "Well, maybe, but unlike GW you don't have to buy a new core rule book every 3 years!"

Then Remix hit. I refrained from the "I told you so's".

So yeah, while GW is expensive, I don't feel they are an order of magnitude above thier competators, just more visible than their competators.

Necros wrote:It just seems to me the people that cry the loudest about the prices are the obsessed folks that have to fill their closet space with unopened boxes of army men that they "will get to someday".

Haha. I used to be one of those people. Now that GW prices are sky high and bitz service is gone - I'm digging into my reserves instead of buying new. If GW (Canada) didn't raise their prices so high, I'd probably still be buying from them. Due to the weak US dollar, GWUS prices are fairly palatable to me actually. They remind me of Canadian prices from 3rd edition, close to 10 years ago!

Sebster hits the nail on the head: There is NO SUCH THING as a "Fair Price". There is not a definition of fair that applies here. Ever.
Even "Is it over priced?" is a pointless question because it is extremely personal in it's answer. If someone is willing to pay it, it isn't. If they are not, it is.
The only question is "is it a price you are willing to pay?"

Now, I wish they charged less, and I think they could do just as well doing so. The mountain of unpainted plastic and metal in my house speaks to the fact that at least I am willing to buy sets that I think are neat without a definite intention of using them right away. I suspect many other people do the same thing.

However, the price it takes for them to make the things and be in business is completely irrelevant to the exchange between us and them, customer and seller. If it cost them 25$ per terminator, I suspect no one would be willing to pay 26$ for them, regardless of whether a single dollar profit per figure is "over priced" or "fair". Many simply wouldn't be able to afford it.
Just the same, if they charged 3$ for a 10 pack of terminators, their sales might go up, but you wouldn't see my sister rushing out to build a Raven Wing army. She just wouldn't care (or even be aware they existed.)

That's all there is. GW either sells at a price people will pay, or they don't. That price either covers their costs and profits, or it doesn't. There is no "fair," and "over priced" only has relevance in the sense of each individual's perception of what they are willing to pay.

Edited for some bad grammar.

I had to vote no after putting it into the perspective of my other hobbies. Take paintball for example. My marker ran me $650.00, tank was $200.00, pods and pack $75.00, other gear $100.00. Right there is almost a grand and I haven't even hit the field yet. So going for the day. $55.00 for a case of paint, $25.00 field fee and $5.00 for air. $80.00 every time I go out that I'll never see again. Should I decide to sell my marker and equipment, I'll be glad if I can get 50% back on it. Take that same amount of money, buy an army and I can use the same one any weekend for nothing.

Aeddon wrote:The only minatures you're gonna find at a lower price (at least that I can think of right now) are D&D, Hero Clix and the like. It's a different kind of hobby al together.

Bollocks. There are lots of manufacturers who sell models cheaper than GW do. Plastics as well as metals - em4miniatures for a start, Reaper for another. And just about any historicals manufacturer on the planet...

Quality is a different issue, but so much of that is subjective anyhow.

As for whether GW models are "too expensive" though, that is a personal decision. Only we can decide whether the £10 we would spend on a GW model is value for money or not. We could get different models with that money which may or may not generate mroe fun for us.

As far as GW is concerned, their current pricing just about covers costs, (i.e. they made a loss last year) so ipso facto it must be "fair".

However, once you are "in" plastic injection molding, your costs drop dramatically.

So let's see:

Prices remain the same.

No longer metal, so alot less detail.

Metal costs more than plastic to the manufacturer by a huge amount.

Once you've got the mold done and are making plastic kits, you're basically printing money as the costs is pennies. Yes, pennies.

That would only be true if they were not constantly producing new kits. The reason they are not rolling in profits and are, instead just coming out of a three year cycle of signifigant losses, is that the cost of plastic do not stop, unless you stop making and designing new molds. Anyone who thinks that GW is fleecing them and running to the bank with thier massive profits needs only take a look at the public financial statements to see that is anything but the truth.

GW produces in the neighborhood of 20+ new plastic kits per year. That is a HUGE investment and the only reason they can do this is because they can recover that investment over the following years due to the low 'per unit' pure production cost.

You also have to factor in the organizational overhead. Hiring writers, deisgners, sculptors, acountants, secretaries, mail room dudes ect... is not free. Nor is office, warehouse or factory squre footage, insurance, utility bills, taxes ect...

The price GW pays for your 10 marines is not just the price of the plastic and the box, but a fraction of the entire organizational cost that supports their ability to produce that kit.

This is not Exon, raking in record profit margins and lauging at the little people while they buy their next private island. It is a hobby company that produces on a very signifigant scale, to a very small target market.

It is the same reason you pay 10.00 for popcorn and a coke at the movie theatre, because that where the business recoups its costs in order to make a profit. And unless you want to see GW go away, you want them to make a profit.

Really, GW probably should outsource their production to some South East Asia country. Producting plastic men in the UK must be killing them. Considering you can get engineers in Asia for pennies on the pound, and how easy it is to transfer the CAD data, it probably would make more sense.

Well, chaos termies are 5 for $50 while possessed are half as much. So yes, I think the products are over priced.

Are GW products overpriced?

Do bears gak in the woods?

I love how some people just come straight back with this "hell yeah its over-priced" without giving a reason or seemingly read the earlier examples.

One of the reasons GW doesn't outsource to somewhere else is an issue of quality... afterall that quality (or lack thereof) is the reason the spray-gun got recalled
If it had been made in house- i almost guarentee it'd have come out fine.

GW's production costs are only a small proportion of their overall costs. They also have to pay the design studio and most importantly a huge retail network, neither of which can be outsourced to China.

What GW need to do is make better use of their retail chain by selling some different games as well as WHFB and 40K.

keezus wrote:

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:

While this is true for those who play exclusively in their own private venues, this kind of attitude is what is killing the brick and mortar stores which offer gaming areas. Square footage that independent retailers devote to gaming are areas that do not contain merchandise, and as such do not directly contribute to their bottom line - as a result, paying the difference between MSRP and 20% interweb discount when using these facilities is hardly foolish, especially if players wish to "retain" said area for gaming. Those who think that they are entitled to game in stores as a free public service, using the store's facilities while purchasing all their product online - and worse still, advocating this view to other patrons - (often on store premises!), are IMHO, narrow-minded-donkey-hats that inevitably hasten either the closure of these facilities, or the store's dropping of the product line.

Granted, paying 50%+ difference between non-US MSRP and the interweb discount is a bit harder to ignore - I usually get around this issue by buying non-GW products from the retailer once in a while - (The theory holds here as well, since it is possible to get Privateer product at discount from the Warstore as well).

To hell with them. There are more than a few that dont deserve support. Its a two way street that doesnt always come back to support for the gamer.

Some of us dont wish to retain anymore. We've had enough of their nonsense.