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Post by: Boss Salvage
By way of Crusherjoe on Ultramarine Blues: From two posts by turelhim vampire at The Bolter and Chainsword:
I don’t know if this has already been mentioned but I don’t have time to scrawl though 38 pages whilst I am at work. I just got off the phone with a GW employee – this was from ringing GW mail order at Nottingham - who had the book in front of him and gleaned a few tid bits.
Salamanders Special Character:
NOT Tu’shan – his name is Vulkan Estan he is the ex-4th Company Captain and is a kind of wandering champion. Apparently he has almost inquisition like leverage over the Salamander Chapter, as his task is to seek out and recover 9 holy relics made by Vulkan before he disappeared. Apparently if all 9 are recovered Vulkan will return. Estan has recovered 3 and is using them. One is a Salamander Hide Cloak, one is a Gauntlet which counts as a Heavy Flamer and allows him to re-roll to wound. The third is the Spear of Vulkan - a S6 master crafted power weapon.
On top of this he allows any and all Salamanders in the army to replace their “vanilla” Combat Tactics with the Salamanders version – they get Master Crafted Thunder Hammers for free. All Melta/flamer weapons in the army, no matter their source, count as twin linked – also for free.
In addition (this is a general marine rule) Storm Shields now grant a 3+ Inv. Save against shooting and combat. And all Salamanders Terminator Assault squads come with them, and there thunder hammers are master crafted if Estan is present.
Also I heard the Spearhead will include:
Codex
Drop pod
Telion
Cantor
Sicarius
Tank Commander character
Scout Bikes
5 Vanguard
5 Sternguard
1x Speeder (could be a storm)
Just thought I’d contribute.
Second Post:
Right, now work is over and I can talk in some depth, here is what I was told:
-The special characters are designed to be taken by any chapter using "counts as" rules.
-If you give a commander a bike, bike squads are troops.
-Tac squads can have any number of marines - from 5 to 10, but can only have special/heavy weapons if you take a full 10 man squad. They can be split into combat squads during deployment. To make up for the "must have 10 for special/heavies" rule flamers, missile launchers, multi-meltas and heavy bolters are now FREE - you only pay points to take the rest of the options.
-Drop pod assault: Half the drop pods deploy on turn 1 - these half have "deployment beacons" that allow the rest (held as reserves) to come in more accurately. Tac squads choose to deploy as combat squads AFTER they land.
-Scouts in all their forms (including the storm) infiltrate in one of two ways - normally or can come in as reserves from ANY table edge and get to use their free "scout" move when they arrive. Scouts are still troops - Marine Airbourne Cavalry of Doom anyone?
-3 Dread options - Standard, Venerable, and Ironclad - all separate elite entries. Venerables are back to how they used to be and have WS/BS 5. Ironclads have 13/13/10 armour, can take 2x DCCW, Hurricane bolter, twin linked heavy flamer, and some others, I forget now. It also has a rule which could be a weapon option called the "seismic hammer" which counts as a thunder hammer and allows difficult terrain tests to be re-roll as it batters terrain out of the way.
-Dreads are crazy now weapons include - Assault Cannon, Multi Melta, twin Heavy Bolters, twin Heavy Flamers, twin las cannon, twin autocannon, plasma cannon, DCCW, Missile Launcher, and maybe more I have forgotten. Oh, and AT LEAST the twin autocannon can be purchased for BOTH arms.
-Sternguard vets have DW style ammo, 2 can take special/heavies/special CCW - Including HEAVY FLAMERS. biggrin.gif For +5pts each they can also take ANY combi weapon - and still keep the specialist ammo type.
-Vanguard vets are similar but are combat-heavy and can have jump packs as an option. Interestingly, they can be further upgraded to "Honour Guard" if you take a Company Master.
-Scouts and Characters can take Combi-Grenade launchers, which are the same as they used to be but are now RAPID FIRE.
-Crusader is now cheaper but does not come with the multi-melta - but this can be purchased as a pintle mounted weapon - possible for ALL land raiders. Redeemer flame cannons are S6 AP3 but are NOT inferno cannons - the template has to touch the weapon - however the machine spirit now allows each weapon on the raider to fire at a separate target.
-There are 13 special characters in total. White Scars character confirmed. No model as yet for him or Vulkan.
Thats all I can remember.
Pure hate from me, shocked that the same design team that gave us the new CSM codex - which I can deal with and have even learned to like - turned around and amped the freaking hell out of the SM codex  - Salvage  EDIT -- Feel free to start discrediting stuff from this list, it smells so damn wishlisty that I want it to all be wrong. It just seems late in the game is all, with the codex right around the corner 
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Post by: NaZ
yeah I gotta agree with the wishlisty. would totally wipe out the point of blood angels, black templar, and dark angels if basic marines are that crazy good.
not to mention that it would be WAY overpowered! unless their costs went way up I couldn't see this much crap happening
NaZ
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Post by: Deadshane1
If all this is true, hopefully the point cost will be astronimical for all those toys...evening it out.
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Post by: Reecius
This cant be true, this is sounding pretty over the top. But if it is accurate, wow. SM's FTW and CSM's are nothing more than 10K year old geriatric patients.
Marines should be powerful, but this sounds like a little too much, although the munchkin in me is pretty stoked on the possibilities!
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Post by: VermGho5t
My Claws of Lorek cry if this is true. Oh well!
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Post by: Silverthorne
AWESOME. I don't normally use the capslock key, but I think that it is warranted in this case. I thought that Marine armies would take huge hits in customization with the death of traits, but that seems to be way off base.
I am sure that most of the new stuff will be expensive- in fact, I imagine that almost every non- tactical squad unit in the book gets a moderate price hike, to go along with its buff. They are pretty serious about getting back to the basics and having troops be the most important thing. While the design of 5th ed in general does this, I expect them to accelerate the trend with codex design.
It is interesting to me that all the dark blades from the poor old Chaos codex have somehow made their way into imperial hands. Doesn't the White Scar character have one too? A moon-powered butter knife or something, if I remember the name right. Hopefully the librarians will get some sort of strength boost from their weapons or whatever, to help them cope with the force-weapon nerf a palooza. At a points cost, obviously.
Aside from the hellfire rounds, and the generalized buffing of ordo templates, it seems like their big power boosts have come in the anti-elite categories, which I really like, as it tailors the army thematically. The new details really make them seem like a nice change since in the current codex, the best way to win was heavy weapon spam with a big CC counter attack, or just to flood the field with power armored bodies. The new codex seems like it will make them more elite and expensive-- they can do any job, but there are never enough of them. A very welcome change in my opinion.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
I am officially a yellow Munchkin now/
G
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Post by: akira5665
Looks like all my wishes have come true.
If a Commander takes a BZike rule for instance. Gold
LR shooting at Multiple Targets. Gold
Pintle Mounted MM. Gold.
Ahhh- I love my Marines all over again.
Need to buy a few Dreads now.......
2080
Post by: Samwise158
I can't imagine all of these rumors actually being true. The free flamers and multi-melta thing is disgusting. How can they jack up the prices for everything in the Dark Angels army, limit the hell out of the equipment options and then give regular marines free stuff because...sniff... they can't take 5 man las/plas squads anymore? I can see adding some new units and options, but how about not totally making three legendary chapters look like total sissies by comparison.
Like the scouts having the special rule that lets them show up on any table edge... Dark Angel scouts are still going to be rolling on the chart. This is why Chapter Approved is necessary, so that if they actually do half of this goofy crap then at least let all of the marine chapters do it, so you don't invalidate three entire codexii
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Post by: Necros
I could totally see all this uberness being true, because of all those cool things that effect the new models, and all the coolest rules are always made for the new models.
But, I'll believe it all when the book is in my hands.
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Post by: Foda_Bett
I've been doing "count as chapters" for a while now, so Ultramarines with re-rollable melta and flamers is pretty cool.
If all this stuff becomes true I think marines will go up to atleast 20 points a piece, and those characters will be in the 200s.
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Post by: MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy
1) Salamanders sound cool.
2) Free Missile Launchers sounds cool.
3) I want a $20 refund on my Dark Angels codex.
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Post by: Voodoo Boyz
No way this can be true.
Oh well, glad I didn't sell my Marine army...
And is it just me or do scouts sound amazing now?
1963
Post by: Aduro
I'm hoping it's not true just because I want the Salamanders character to have a Thunder Hammer, not a str6 Power Weapon. Given his rules I'm wanting to make a "counts as" version of him for my army, which yes is and has been Salamander Sub, but then use all my Power Fists as "counts as" Thunder Hammers.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
*Reads rumours*
*Looks at shelf full of Marines and Land Raiders*
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Free heavy weapons?
Sure.
BYE
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Post by: VermGho5t
My feelings as a CSM player are summed up with this GIF. (some of you may have seen it before)
1
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Post by: Bahkara
 I just threw up in my mouth. 
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Post by: Boss Salvage
Upshot of this round of OHMYGODTHESEX marine rumors? Validation of the "counts as" mindset with all these damn special characters.
Downshot of the above? Amongst them, ridiculousness of C  A and C: CSM will be around for years until they too get redone. I suppose at the very least C:Chaos Legions is going to be HOLYHELLMYFACE fanfreakingtastic. You know, with codex creep and such :S
- Salvage
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Post by: Bla_Ze
OUTRAGEOUSLY KINKY! Although i find the rumours about as likley as me being hung like Godzilla.
Also, RAGE!
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Post by: Tacobake
those rumours are CRAAAAAZZZZYYYYYYY.
but interesting.
518
Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Deadshane1 wrote:If all this is true, hopefully the point cost will be astronimical for all those toys...evening it out.
Marines pay for advantages?
Deadshane made a funny!
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Post by: Deadshane1
Kid_Kyoto wrote:Deadshane1 wrote:If all this is true, hopefully the point cost will be astronimical for all those toys...evening it out.
Marines pay for advantages?
Deadshane made a funny!
Well...assuming that Phil Kelly didnt write this codex, it may not be loaded with awesomeness!
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Post by: Le Grognard
I ain't taking nothing as gospel until I have the book in my greasy little paws. I hope some of those are not true, seems a little OTT.
550
Post by: Clang
I don't hate any of these _in principle_, but I certainly would if they're 'free' pointswise.
But considering DA and CSM codexes were written with 5th Ed in mind, is it really so silly to think GW will make marine players pay a points penalty for this cool new stuff?
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Post by: mattyboy22
I dunno, I could see them getting free flamer/ ML if a tac marine goes up to 17 points a piece. If you have to have 10 men to get them, then thats 20 extra points over a current ten man squad, which sounds reasonable. Then you've got the "may upgrade ML to lascannon for 5 points" or something to that effect, making it cost the same as it does now. Hopefully that's how it is....
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Post by: 1hadhq
Reecius wrote: SM's FTW and CSM's are nothing more than 10K year old geriatric patients.
As it will and should be! 
Marines should be powerful, but this sounds like a little too much, although the munchkin in me is pretty stoked on the possibilities!
Wait for the price,we know what they've done with the DA-minidex. 
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Post by: 1hadhq
Aduro wrote:I'm hoping it's not true just because I want the Salamanders character to have a Thunder Hammer, not a str6 Power Weapon. Given his rules I'm wanting to make a "counts as" version of him for my army, which yes is and has been Salamander Sub, but then use all my Power Fists as "counts as" Thunder Hammers.
You should do this,Salli Thunderhammers count as "mastercrafted" then and didn't lose their attack for second CCW. 
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Post by: 1hadhq
Marines will change =
was it foreseeable =
anyone looked around and not surprised yet = :S
 The first changes to marines are in the actual 5th ed rulebook :
look at the chart for marines at the last pages (290) and you get that chaplains and librarians were redone.
2004 = chaplain: 5,5,4,4,2,5,2,9,3+ / 5,5,4,4,3,5,3,10,3+ librarian: identical stats
2008 = chaplain: 4,4,4,4,2,4,2,10,3+ librarian: 5,4,4,4,2,4,2,9,3+
For DA = old rules from dex: DA
The chaplains lose on CC and shooting a point ! librarians lose only at shooting one! 
This is not a little change.Maybe last only until fall when the dex is out.
No dex for BA and SW now,but will be after SM, makes DA and BT cry,but hey, GW may think of a new chapter approved book
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I hope they don't make SMs too good because if they did, everyone will want to play them.
At the moment it is a refreshing change of pace to find an SM army among the endles hordes of IG, DE, Necrons and so on.
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Post by: Hellfury
Kilkrazy wrote:I hope they don't make SMs too good because if they did, everyone will want to play them.
At the moment it is a refreshing change of pace to find an SM army among the endles hordes of IG, DE, Necrons and so on.
Bandwagon jumpers happen with every new codex, so you really shouldn't be surprised there.
Geez guys. This thread is made completely out of knee-jerk reactions. More than most threads here.
There have been a couple people on that same thread that seem to validate most of the rumours though. So get your hankies, because your crying circle is going to need a fresh supply.
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Post by: Lorek
All I'm saying is: Pics or it didn't happen.
A mail order troll as a reliable source? COME ON, people. Let's get some perspective here.
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Post by: Boss Salvage
Iorek wrote:All I'm saying is: Pics or it didn't happen.
A mail order troll as a reliable source? COME ON, people. Let's get some perspective here.
Point to you Iorek, and maybe my knee was jerking pretty hard on this one. How long until Codex: Space Marines drops though? I'm excited / interested / afraid to see what actually happens in those hundres of pages
- Salvage
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Post by: Alpharius
And, isn't Jervis writing this Codex?
Come on!
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Post by: Kettu
Well, this coupled with the information that my sisters won't recive an update till 2011/12 (if ever) then I know what my sisters are gonna count as. 
Hmm... Now what would Battle Sister Terminator armour look like? 
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Post by: migsula
I see no reason to panic, as none of the pts costs are listed yet.
Hence I really dig the rumors. Plenty of coolness and flavor and options are back, yet it sounds pretty certain the toys add up!
Looks like my Crescent Guard are getting plenty of reinforcements this fall WONDERFUL!
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Post by: quietus86
seems a bit mutch oke new younits new rools ad options but free weapen upgades now what can't be treu.
seems wai to mutch only thing I heart was that a standart marine woud have a bolter bolt pistol frag and krak granades
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Post by: syr8766
OMZ!
Okay, now that that's over with, this is about as reliable as the Pan Fo being reviled or plastic Cadians. Frankie says relax.
Having said that, SM are going to get uber (though maybe not this wish list) because they're marines, because old habits die hard, and as a result, people will continue to tool their lists up to deal with MEqs, which means any of the 'fixes' that were meant to make 5th better will be for naught. [/old-school rant]
Now go play some Warmachine. Or Fantasy. Or Gloire!
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Post by: Orlanth
I am glad I didnt do Sallies now. Soon they are going to be choice #1 for kiddies everywhere and will get a borkan rep, even I if never take this special character.
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Post by: 1hadhq
@Orlanth:
If I know what you play and bring enough kiddies to start this army too,you will drop what you wanted and play
something else to evade little kiddies? :S
@syr8766:
Why play anything else ?
 uber marines for the win 
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Post by: Reecius
they made chappies WS/BS 4? I was hoping that rumor was not true, i wonder what the reasoning is? to make masters the uber CC character in the book?
this is making me really curious to see what pans out.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
Reecius wrote:they made chappies WS/BS 4? I was hoping that rumor was not true, i wonder what the reasoning is? to make masters the uber CC character in the book?
this is making me really curious to see what pans out.
It's been pretty much discounted. The source of the rumour is the quick reference guide in the back of the 5th Ed. Rulebook....which if IIRC is full of errors.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
About the only thing in those rumers without an unmentioned price hike is the free heavy weapons for a 10 man squad, which i honestly don't care all that much about. A ten man marine squad can have a free heavy weapon and be a squad of 9 marines that will never do anything with their lascanon friend.
Everything else will probably come hand in hand with a healthy increase in price, and I can't imagine the new land raider or IC dreads being cheap at all. And I highly doubt any of the special characters that give army wide bonus' being sub 200 pts. Though who knows, maybe its a overblown ultradex that will crush evrything else. I can't see the future. Spehz mareens are supposed to be a low model count high power army, if they raise the price of every model in the book I'll be happier for it.
Also rage.
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Post by: 1hadhq
Additional changes between SM dex 2004 and rulebook 2008:
all stats on normal order!
............................... SM 2004...........................5th ed 2008
techmarine_____=>____4,4,4,4,2,4,2,9,3+_________4,4,4,4,1,4,1,8,2+
honorguard=
commandsquad?_=>____4,4,4,4,1,4,1,8,3+_________4,4,4,4,1,4,2,10,2+
apothecary______=>____4,4,4,4,1,4,1,8,3+_________4,4,4,4,1,4,2,9,3+
The chart in the rulebook has no vets,but honorguard.Don't know if this is identic.
The upgrade apothecary is a entry in the rulebook,maybe rules like the techmarine to add him ?
Honorguard has two attacks, morale 10 and a save 2+
Techmarine lost an attack,a morale point and got a 2+ save :S
Captains have a 4+ invul save now
Should be every change I've seen.
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Post by: Schepp himself
The part about the twinlinked heavy bolter (and autocannons and so on) dreads made the post lose a whole level of credibility (can you say that?).
I mean, it sounds cool (customizable!!!), but I doubt it...i mean that everything will happen.
Greets
Schepp himself
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Crusherjoe wrote:
-The special characters are designed to be taken by any chapter using "counts as" rules.
-If you give a commander a bike, bike squads are troops.
-Tac squads
-Drop pod assault:
-3 Dread options - Standard, Venerable, and Ironclad
-Sternguard vets have DW style ammo, 2 can take special/heavies/special CCW
-Vanguard vets are similar but are combat-heavy and can have jump packs as an option.
-Combi-Grenade launchers,
-Crusader is now cheaper but does not come with the multi-melta - but this can be purchased as a pintle mounted weapon - -There are 13 special characters in total. White Scars character confirmed. No model as yet for him or Vulkan.
Overall, while this sounds like a big change in power (upward), I don't think it's what many people seem to think. And most of this will depend on points costs, which haven't yet been revealed. Also, which bodes really well for IG, is that the SM are being rebalanced a bit more toward center with a more equal balance of fighty units and options to complement their current shooty options.
Also, I notice that the bulk of sexy stuff is non-Scoring non-Troops. In particular, the Elites slots compete very heavily, so this is excellent army design, taken from how Fantasy Specials tend to compete very heavily.
The Special Characters and HQ options (Bikes) sound like they're the new Traits, and the 0-2 HQ limitation and Chapter requirement likely does a good job of keeping things from getting out of hand.
The Tac squad rule is a good balance against the old 5-10 and the newer Combat Squads, but really is unfortunate that GW didn't force Combat Squads on all SM. Combat Squads are distinctive and a fair trade against limited size options.
The new plastic Drop Pod model won't sell itself, so the Daemons-like rules tweak to let half arrive turn 1 is obvious. It amuses me that Daemonstrike is bad but Podstrike is good, when the rule seems to be the same.
The Dreads are a nod to the new simple plastic model in the starter set. Gotta collect more! But as they're Elites and compete with starter Termies, along with Vets, I don't see the problem. You get 3 slots for cool, expensive Non-Scoring models. Go nuts guys!
Sternguard are basically the same as now, but making DW obsolete. I wonder what the points bump will be. Vanguard are basically the same as BA Honor Guard, and I wonder if they will be costed similarly, with mandatory Vet Sergeants for each.
Combi-Grenade Launchers are nice, but I kind of miss the 2E launchers.
Crusader didn't really need a points cut, even with the Multi-Melta drop. It'll be nice to see what happens if/when Inquisition gets redone.
Boss_Salvage wrote:
Pure hate from me, shocked that the same design team that gave us the new CSM codex - which I can deal with and have even learned to like - turned around and amped the freaking hell out of the SM codex
When you consider that SM had to lose "Traits", but still be protected as the sole source of GW profit, the Codex makes a lot of sense.
In comparision to the CSM Codex, Chaos has a lot more and better Troops options with CSM, Cult Marines, and Daemons; SM has Tacs, Scouts, and Bikes (which was a mistake - White Scars should have been forced to play as Ravenwing). SM have better Elites, which trade of fewer slots and Non-Scoring. I don't see a significant power shift here, but I suspect the sexy new options are going to drive SM army model count down, in the same way that the CSM got a bit pricier.
NaZ wrote:would totally wipe out the point of blood angels, black templar, and dark angels if basic marines are that crazy good.
Blood Angels are the only way to get Assault Marines as Troops, along with Death Company. DA are still the only way to get Termies as Troops. And Templars are still the only guys with the throwback structures allowing Troops to take Heavies with less than 10 SM. But yeah, more homogenization and fewr options would have been better.
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Post by: Corpsesarefun
this is probably the most sickening rumour ever
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Post by: bigchris1313
Iorek wrote:All I'm saying is: Pics or it didn't happen.
A mail order troll as a reliable source? COME ON, people. Let's get some perspective here.
Listen to the Panzerbjorne! Mail Order Trollz aren't even capable of adjudicating simple rules questions. You think someone really found one that decided to sit on the phone with a copy of the new Marine Dex and give away the keys to the castle? No way.
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Post by: 1hadhq
Schepp himself wrote:The part about the twinlinked heavy bolter (and autocannons and so on) dreads made the post lose a whole level of credibility (can you say that?).
Twinlinked Heavy Bolter and Autocannons are old designs,available in dex SM 1998 and the last DA dex.
No GW-parts for it,but FW for sure!
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Post by: Alpharius
syr8766 wrote:OMZ!
Having said that, SM are going to get uber (though maybe not this wish list) because they're marines, because old habits die hard, and as a result, people will continue to tool their lists up to deal with MEqs, which means any of the 'fixes' that were meant to make 5th better will be for naught. [/old-school rant]
Marines (generic, Ultra, non- BA) were pretty pants in 3rd, weren't they?
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Blood Angels are the only way to get Assault Marines as Troops, along with Death Company. DA are still the only way to get Termies as Troops. And Templars are still the only guys with the throwback structures allowing Troops to take Heavies with less than 10 SM. But yeah, more homogenization and fewr options would have been better.
The BA for Assault as Troops and DC, DA for Termis as Troops and BT for old school structure - yes.
"more homogenization and fewer options would have been better" - no.
Apparently, even GW has learned this lesson, and smartened up just in time.
Maybe.
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Post by: quietus86
Schepp himself wrote:The part about the twinlinked heavy bolter (and autocannons and so on) dreads made the post lose a whole level of credibility (can you say that?).
I mean, it sounds cool (customizable!!!), but I doubt it...i mean that everything will happen.
Greets
Schepp himself
imperial armour dreads have dose choses I em ordering me a new chapine dreadnought whit twinlinked autocanon ( juist love the look of it )
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Post by: BrookM
Twin-linked autocannons for both arms? I guess the Mortis pattern Dreadnought is no longer a Dark Angels exclusive then..
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
I'm gonna bet that if you give Scouts a Land Speeder transport it makes them Fast Attack instead of troops. With the new Scoring Unit rules, I'm skeptical that GW would make it that easy for SM to have late-game scoring units like that.
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Post by: skyth
BrookM wrote:Twin-linked autocannons for both arms? I guess the Mortis pattern Dreadnought is no longer a Dark Angels exclusive then..
I was thinking Raider-X/Rifleman...
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Post by: 1hadhq
Death By Monkeys wrote:I'm gonna bet that if you give Scouts a Land Speeder transport it makes them Fast Attack instead of troops. With the new Scoring Unit rules, I'm skeptical that GW would make it that easy for SM to have late-game scoring units like that.
you will buy the landspeeder from fast-attack with the scouts then at max 5 scouts in.
Makes a 1 choice per slot option,not a land speeder squad as standard/tornado/typhoon.Can live with that.
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Post by: Orlanth
1hadhq wrote: @Orlanth:
If I know what you play and bring enough kiddies to start this army too,you will drop what you wanted and play
something else to evade little kiddies? :S
I dont mind sharing an army choice with kiddies. What I do mind is having the borkan chapter, it sours the background. Sallies are a distinct case, they were always fluffy and a tad underpowered, but not so much as to spoil the list.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Alpharius wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:
Blood Angels are the only way to get Assault Marines as Troops, along with Death Company. DA are still the only way to get Termies as Troops. And Templars are still the only guys with the throwback structures allowing Troops to take Heavies with less than 10 SM. But yeah, more homogenization and fewr options would have been better.
The BA for Assault as Troops and DC, DA for Termis as Troops and BT for old school structure - yes.
"more homogenization and fewer options would have been better" - no.
Apparently, even GW has learned this lesson, and smartened up just in time.
Maybe.
Sorry, gotta disagree. The more "niche" each army is, the more distinctive it is. It allows other armies to be much stronger in their respective niches, so they have stronger flavor in style of play. If SM were more iconic with stricter SM standard rules, and a narrower niche of capability, then CSM, BT, BA, etc. automatically become more distinctive. Creating a way for Bikes as Troops for example, is a terrible idea because it competes directly with DA Ravenwing. Now, GW is back to the foolishness of trying to split hairs and create narrow distinctions instead of having clear differences.
Yeah, until these rumors, I thought GW learned something from their WFB Army Books, but apparently not.
1709
Post by: The Power Cosmic
HURR!
Wow, glad I'm not a Chaos player.
So yeah, Legends, huh?
5333
Post by: BeefyG
It all sounds pretty lame to me.
I don't beleive this vitriol, it goes against the flow of things thus far...and at the comatose pace of GW development a change in direction this sudden would be a death throw. I don't see it. There is a few key points that have been grabbed (that can be sourced already from any of the forums) and planted in to give the rest of the crap more credence.
I'm calling outright BS minus the stuff stolen from other sources.
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Post by: bigchris1313
This stuff doesn't sound that great. I mean, sure, a free missile launcher sounds nice, but if the pts go up on the basic marine by even one, I don't know if they'll sell Marine kits at all. I think for the new Dex to even break even with the old one, all these rumors will need to be true AND point costs will need to remain constant, mostly to make up for the AssCan nerf.
In fact, I think, if anything, the price of a basic Marine should drop. I think 13 pts would keep the army relatively balanced. And lots of the other options need to come down in price too. Take the Ironclad dread for example. Sure, it sounds good, but that rear armor 10 is a killer. If someone Deepstrikes behind you, it's game over. I wouldn't be surprised if they get a price drop too. The price in the current Marine Dex isn't really in line with how fragile dreadnoughts are. I'm also happy to see Venerables go back to WS and BS 5. They were overcosted in the current Dex.
Sure, you can say that the new Dex as presented here, even if it just breaks even with the current one, still leaves DA, BA, and BTs as weak in comparison. That may be true, but I think the fluff can totally justify it. I mean, the reason that all those other Chapters deviated from the Codex Astartes, which the Ultras follow more or less to a T, was because they had inferior geneseed. I think it makes perfect sense for the Ultras and their pure successors to be the most powerful, fluffwise anyway. But as I said before, even if all these rumors are true, Marines will be lucky to break even compared to the current Dex. If they really want to make them a playable, much less a competitive army, I think point cuts across the board are definitely in order. Heck, with Orks as cheap as they are for their statline, I wouldn't be opposed to 12 or even 11 pt Marines.
Am I right or am I right?
4932
Post by: 40kenthusiast
In my opinion, Space Marines need a buff to compete with CSM's and Orks. This sounds like it could be it.
7547
Post by: MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy
I don't think BT are weak at all.
They can still spam assault cannons and get min maxed lasplas. The only thing they really miss out on Devasator squads.
12 pt marines is insane though. Stormtroopers/Sisters are 10.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
Tau Fire Warriors are 10!
7571
Post by: Ebsolom Dhaark
Pass me a shovel of sodium chloride will ya!
7375
Post by: BrookM
Remember that GW for the most part balances the point values of models and upgrades internally, not externally.
Sisters are 11 btw.
91
Post by: Hordini
Oh hay guys you'll never guess what happened to me!
Yesterday I was sitting around and a Mail Order Troll called me and told me that regular Space Marines would be free (points-wise) and that you would only have to pay points for heavy weapons! Of course to make up for this Great Deal! Tactical Squad boxed sets are being adjusted to $50 a box.
I'm not sure but his voice sounded kind of like Andy Chambers, so I assumed he had checked his facts.
735
Post by: JOHIRA
bigchris1313 wrote:This stuff doesn't sound that great. I mean, sure, a free missile launcher sounds nice, but if the pts go up on the basic marine by even one, I don't know if they'll sell Marine kits at all.
Not a chance. Someone will always buy marine kits.
161
Post by: syr8766
JOHIRA wrote:bigchris1313 wrote:This stuff doesn't sound that great. I mean, sure, a free missile launcher sounds nice, but if the pts go up on the basic marine by even one, I don't know if they'll sell Marine kits at all.
Not a chance. Someone will always buy marine kits.
HURR! Hey kidz?! Likes yerself soem spase marienz? Tehy are the awesomest! U can be like Master Chief and Solid Snake! Tehy alwayz get the bestest rules!!!1!!2!!three!!
Seriously, if y'all believe this, you've been
91
Post by: Hordini
I heard that in the new Codex: Space Marines, they are going to include the Space Emperor as a special character, but get this, you don't have to get your opponent's permission to use it, 'cause the Space Emperor is in charge of the game!
Basically the rules are:
Against aliens and Chaos the marines automatically win after deployment, unless Horus is included in the Chaos army (see the upcoming Chaos Legion-specific codices, coming in the future!)
Against other Imperial armies (Marines, IG, Witch Hunters, etc.) the Emperor's presence makes them realize it's silly to fight each other and both sides hug and win!
Also, Space Marine armies with the Emperor get all their heavy weapons for free, because the Space Emperor has so many Space Bucks, that all the heavy weapons are on him! Drinks after the game are on you, however.
Personally I think he'll probably be way over-costed.
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Post by: Kettu
Hordini wrote:Personally I think he'll probably be way over-costed.
Only a little bit, 40,000 points is still being mighty generous though.
161
Post by: syr8766
Hordini wrote:I heard that in the new Codex: Space Marines, they are going to include the Space Emperor as a special character, but get this, you don't have to get your opponent's permission to use it, 'cause the Space Emperor is in charge of the game!
Basically the rules are:
Against aliens and Chaos the marines automatically win after deployment, unless Horus is included in the Chaos army (see the upcoming Chaos Legion-specific codices, coming in the future!)
Against other Imperial armies (Marines, IG, Witch Hunters, etc.) the Emperor's presence makes them realize it's silly to fight each other and both sides hug and win!
Also, Space Marine armies with the Emperor get all their heavy weapons for free, because the Space Emperor has so many Space Bucks, that all the heavy weapons are on him! Drinks after the game are on you, however.
Personally I think he'll probably be way over-costed.
I heard they won't even need to field the Emporor (though he'd be fun in apocalypse!), because of a new special rule:
Special Rule: HURR!!
After deployment, but before the game begins, the Space Marine player rolls a d6 on the following chart:
1-3 Reroll
4 Marine player wins
5 Marine player wins and gets to keep opponent's army
6 Marine player wins, gets to keep opponent's army, and opponent has to give marine player $5
If both players are fielding Space Marine armies, then they roll on this chart:
1 reroll
2-6 Space Marines HURR!! Both players win maximum victory points and are given $10 by the GW store to go out for chocolate chip pancakes and/or real fruit smoothies.
4670
Post by: Wehrkind
Oddly enough, I have to agree with JohnHwang's first post. (Was that thunder?) Most of the new "WHEE COOL!" new stuff is in the elites section. So you will have 3 slots still for terminators, vets of various flavors and dreads, assuming retinues for HQs are out, and all of them can only contest. That isn't so horrible when you get right down to it.
The HQs = traits thing is interesting at least. It might become a bit overpowered, since I am certain there is at least one combination that didn't get play tested enough for the "Holy crap, they can do THAT?!" to come out, but it probably makes for less mix and match horror than traits could produce. Plus it seems likely that they will be expensive to the point that min/maxing will be a bit more difficult. It costs nothing to get extra special weapons currently, for example, but paying say 200 points to get that is a bit steep. Maybe not though, depending on how buff the special HQs prove to be.
Honestly though, I think the free "lesser" special/heavy weapons are an interesting option. Consider how often one really sees flamers, heavy bolters or missile launchers in tactical squads in tournaments. Yea, you see them in fun armies around the shop, but they are not deemed "competitive", generally because the total cost of ownership is considered too high compared to their effectiveness. This has been done to death in the tactics forum, but suffice to say it is like taking grenade launchers on IG: yes, they are better than a lasgun, but the points cost is not so much lower than a plasma gun to make it worth taking.
However, if they are free, it means people will use them, perhaps as an afterthought. When mixed with combat squads and a required 10 men to pull it off, the total cost of ownership probably becomes just about equal to previously, but now you are only trading the utility of a bolter for that of a flamer, say.
I do very much wish they had come up with this back before they did the Chaos or DA/ BA codexes though. It's a good idea whose time had come, but it came some two years ago.
However, I would like to add my vote to the "real fruit smoothies" column. I was looking to buy a car the past few weeks, and was routinely offered free coffee and soda; smoothies would make GW toys feel more like the luxury item they are
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Post by: Boss Salvage
Wehrkind wrote:Honestly though, I think the free "lesser" special/heavy weapons are an interesting option. Consider how often one really sees flamers, heavy bolters or missile launchers in tactical squads in tournaments. Yea, you see them in fun armies around the shop, but they are not deemed "competitive", generally because the total cost of ownership is considered too high compared to their effectiveness. This has been done to death in the tactics forum, but suffice to say it is like taking grenade launchers on IG: yes, they are better than a lasgun, but the points cost is not so much lower than a plasma gun to make it worth taking.
However, if they are free, it means people will use them, perhaps as an afterthought. When mixed with combat squads and a required 10 men to pull it off, the total cost of ownership probably becomes just about equal to previously, but now you are only trading the utility of a bolter for that of a flamer, say.
Frankly I was looking forward to tactical squads going the way of C: BA (and probably C A though I can't say for sure): 4 marines + veteran = X points Add 5 marines = +Y points 5 man squad = 1 flamer (5), melta (10), plasma (15) 10 man squad = 1 flamer (5), melta (10), plasma (15) & 1 heavy bolter (10), missile launcher (10), multi-melta (10), plasma cannon (15), lascannon (20) Nice, structured codex astartes feel to it, and recognizes the differences in the special and heavy weapons as reflected in the points. Free weapons is a braindead option unless marines cost 20 points a pop. For IG I could see it though, considering they ARE their specilized weapons. - Salvage
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Post by: Wehrkind
I agree, but if you are forced to take 10 men to get anything special at all (which is how I read the rumor) making some of the "sub par" options free makes a lot of sense.
Consider how you pointed out that Sisters are great vs. daemons because they pretty much HAVE to take flamers since plasma/lascannons are not an option. Nearly every army that can take plasma does, shunning the other specials in the process, because for the price it is staggeringly more effective 90% of the time. Mauleed pattern Marines is pretty much the standard of "UBAR" for just that reason.
Now, ignore your general list making tendancies. You, and to a lesser extent I, are not the sort of list builder these changes are designed for. Consider instead Studder. When was the last time you saw a plague marine with a flamer? You and I generally build lists in terms of "I like this and the way it plays out in the movie in my head. Nekkid S&M chicks with giant chainsaws ROCK." Most serious players think in terms of "The benefit/cost of getting a flamer in a squad that requires 10 men is less than that of plasma, because at best you are killing X MEQ/point for one vs. the other."
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Post by: Boss Salvage
Regarding Studder's plague marines, he actually had a GW creature at Games Day walk up to his army, look at the 7-man squads and ask why he runs 7 in each squad. He said it was fluffy and that's that, and the guy laughed and said GW totally f-ed up with that sacred number stuff and he was glad it was gone ...
Uh, what?!
Anyway, I think making any free special or heavy weapons is just not how 40k works, though I know other games do this with SAWs and whatever for squads (often bought at a set size). Flamers aren't taken in foot infantry often because of the limits of 6" movement vs 12" assault, but there-in we see the benefits of transports to, well, transport shorter range weapons in for the kill. And add in the benefits 5th gives to hordes and the need for anti-horde weapons goes up. 5 points for a flamer? A steal I say, but it's just a more situational weapon than the other options.
And back to the start of your post, it seemed to me that 5 guys = free flamer or pay to upgrade it. 10 guys = free flamer, free heavy (from the list), pay to upgrade them.
I'll also inject here the abilities of combat squads to make special and heavy weapons better at what they do (in the case of the more specialized weapons - flamers for closer support, meltas to hunt tank, lascannons to kill tanks). THAT is the benefit to marines for taking 10 dudes: access to a heavy weapon and the ability to split a squad up to make the best use of what it has been armed with. Chaos? 10 guys gets us a heavy weapon. End.
- Salvage
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
Man, if they want us to use Missile Launchers and Flamers that ought to give us better rules for them, not make them cheaper. The new blast rules certainly aren't making any friends for MLs no matter how cheap you make them. Heck, maybe have it so if you take them you get points back rather than spend points towards them.
6210
Post by: Le Grognard
Boss_Salvage wrote:Regarding Studder's plague marines, he actually had a GW creature at Games Day walk up to his army, look at the 7-man squads and ask why he runs 7 in each squad. He said it was fluffy and that's that, and the guy laughed and said GW totally f-ed up with that sacred number stuff and he was glad it was gone ...
Statements like that make make baby Jeebus cry. You'll notice the 7 below.
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Post by: Voodoo Boyz
Poor Dark Angels, they really did get lost on their way to the special 40k olympics.
You can even replicate Ravenwing with the new SM dex.
At least Blood Angels still get better Chaplains, Death Company, and Troop Assault Squads.
Also, any thoughts on a Drop Pod + Scouts army? If the Scouts work like that, then things could be pretty entertaining, IMO.
118
Post by: Schepp himself
Man, if they want us to use Missile Launchers and Flamers that ought to give us better rules for them, not make them cheaper. The new blast rules certainly aren't making any friends for MLs no matter how cheap you make them. Heck, maybe have it so if you take them you get points back rather than spend points towards them.
The benefit of horde armies (volume of fire > high quality shots and scoring system) makes blast weapons better...so you have better rules. How much do you pay for Heavy bolters nowadays anyway? 5 pts in a squad? So what's the big deal with free ones?
What i fear is the spammability of basic tactical squads now, just fill your org chart with cheap HB squads and the rest with raiders, or is this unjustified?
The rest sounds pretty much awesome, I mean the space marine units (especially elites) are now a consideration when you build your list. I think this will be as good as the Eldar codex which had many units (almost all imo) which were playable.
Greets
Schepp himself
491
Post by: Elusive71
Dreads are crazy now weapons include - Assault Cannon, Multi Melta, twin Heavy Bolters, twin Heavy Flamers, twin las cannon, twin autocannon, plasma cannon, DCCW, Missile Launcher, and maybe more I have forgotten. Oh, and AT LEAST the twin autocannon can be purchased for BOTH arms.
I hope at least this bit is true. Mortis dreads look badass.
5369
Post by: Black Blow Fly
New eldar codex featured the following broken units:
Eldrad, Avatar, Harlequins, Holo Falcons (plus dirt cheap Guardian jetbikes)
New Tyranid codex featured the following broken units:
Carnifexen as elite, bolter proof Genestealers, blah blah blah
New Ork codex featured the following broken units:
All special characters, Lootas, SAG, blah blah blah
G
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Boss_Salvage wrote:Frankly I was looking forward to tactical squads going the way of C: BA (and probably C A though I can't say for sure):
[SNIP C: BA-like costing]
Nice, structured codex astartes feel to it, and recognizes the differences in the special and heavy weapons as reflected in the points. Free weapons is a braindead option unless marines cost 20 points a pop.
While I was also looking forward to something similar, the issue with SM is that you have a fairly high sunk cost of 165+ pts for the Veteran + 9 other suits of PA. The incremental cost of 5 or 10 points isn't just isn't high enough to make it worth taking Flamers over Plasma, given the slot being what it is. Same with the incremental cost of Lascannon over Missile Launcher. But when they become "FREE" (i.e. valued less than 5 pts), then the net incremental cost of taking Las or Plas increases to 15+ pts. A 35-pt net cost increase for Las/ Plas is significant enough to actually matter in army building, which one presumes to have been the point of the change.
224
Post by: migsula
Wehrkind wrote:You and I generally build lists in terms of "I like this and the way it plays out in the movie in my head. Nekkid S&M chicks with giant chainsaws ROCK." Most serious players think in terms of "The benefit/cost of getting a flamer in a squad that requires 10 men is less than that of plasma, because at best you are killing X MEQ/point for one vs. the other."
Priceless!
4670
Post by: Wehrkind
Boss_Salvage wrote:Regarding Studder's plague marines, he actually had a GW creature at Games Day walk up to his army, look at the 7-man squads and ask why he runs 7 in each squad. He said it was fluffy and that's that, and the guy laughed and said GW totally f-ed up with that sacred number stuff and he was glad it was gone ...
Uh, what?!
I am imagining the next frame of that scene was Studder grabbing the GW monkey by the neck, drawing his .45 and screaming something along the lines of "YOU SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH!" or alternately "TAKE IT BACK! I HATE YOU! YOU'RE NOT MY REAL DAD!"
Anyway, I think making any free special or heavy weapons is just not how 40k works, though I know other games do this with SAWs and whatever for squads (often bought at a set size). Flamers aren't taken in foot infantry often because of the limits of 6" movement vs 12" assault, but there-in we see the benefits of transports to, well, transport shorter range weapons in for the kill. And add in the benefits 5th gives to hordes and the need for anti-horde weapons goes up. 5 points for a flamer? A steal I say, but it's just a more situational weapon than the other options.
And back to the start of your post, it seemed to me that 5 guys = free flamer or pay to upgrade it. 10 guys = free flamer, free heavy (from the list), pay to upgrade them.
I'll also inject here the abilities of combat squads to make special and heavy weapons better at what they do (in the case of the more specialized weapons - flamers for closer support, meltas to hunt tank, lascannons to kill tanks). THAT is the benefit to marines for taking 10 dudes: access to a heavy weapon and the ability to split a squad up to make the best use of what it has been armed with. Chaos? 10 guys gets us a heavy weapon. End.
- Salvage
I see what you mean by this, and I partially agree. I think the problem is that to make flamers etc. valuable you either have to make the situations where their special rules really shine much more common, or make plasma and the like much more expensive.
Consider for instance how often you see the flamers in my foot girl squads fire. Once a game if they are lucky (or fighting daemons) or never if they are not. Those things cost half the price of a girl with a bolter, and I lose the bolter to get it. Depending on how the squad plays, if I sat back and fired, I might get just as many hits and wounds over the course of a game than if I ran forward, sacrificed 24" shooting, then rapid fired and flamed once, presumably before getting charged for my trouble. Most of the time it seems I get charged first.
Now, if 40k had "stand and shoot" as a response to being charged, then flamers would be hot poop. Alternately, if there were alternating phase sequences instead of IGOUGO, they would be better. As it stands, you are lucky to get the 5 points of benefit from them. (Seraphim, however, rock socks with flamers.)
As to your other point, about "free" upgrades not being 40k, please note that all imperial sgt.s can trade their base weapon (bolter or lasgun) for a pistol version and ccw for no extra cost. The assumption seems to be that both are equally valuable, just for different things. I would put forth that a flamer is just as good as a bolter, just for different things.
Now, about meltas/missiles, that I don't know.
I suppose the difference between 5 men/free special and 10 men/free special/heavy is pretty academic thanks to combat squads. Still, I think the "free upgrade" is only out of place due to the context of other codexes, which have very little of that, not so much in and of itself. Especially since the weapons chosen are those that are historically under utilized despite being practically free as is.
5369
Post by: Black Blow Fly
I guess Jervis is not the man anymore.
G
4670
Post by: Wehrkind
You just misquoted yourself GBF :-P
306
Post by: Boss Salvage
Wehrkind wrote:As to your other point, about "free" upgrades not being 40k, please note that all imperial sgt.s can trade their base weapon (bolter or lasgun) for a pistol version and ccw for no extra cost. The assumption seems to be that both are equally valuable, just for different things. I would put forth that a flamer is just as good as a bolter, just for different things.
I don't think the bolter vs bolt pistol + ccw is quite the same thing at all, as that has such a tiny tiny effect on how the rest of the squad performs on the battlefield. However the bit I emphasized is probably the best support for free flamers, especially when reversed: a bolter is just as good as a flamer, just for different things. For the record, I'm not against the free flamers, I think that's a fine and groovy thing and will almost always be upgraded anyway. What I'm against are free heavy weapons. And back on the pistol + ccw, all my chaos marines have all three weapons so I'm clearly going to toss that one aside @ JohnHwang -- Point taken, and agreed with. And to whomever suggested the real problem is the rules behind the weapons needing to change more than the points, I think you have it. - Salvage
4670
Post by: Wehrkind
Well, at least so far as heavy bolters go, they do have two troublesome downsides: they can't move and shoot, and when shooting at range the rest of the squad with bolters sit on their hands. Well, that and they are not a lascannon.
So you won't see troops in rhinos taking a free heavy bolter. The 4 ablative marines sitting in the combat squad with the bolter that is plinking at 36" from cover are just extra wounds. Does this radically change the use of the squad? You just get a little more kill at range if you stand and shoot. Heavy bolters, at least it seems to me, are not terribly exciting until you can take multiples in a squad, such that all those extra bodies clutching bolters do not go to waste. Well, the bolters go to waste... the bodies get filled with a bullet just fine either way.
So at least for HBs, I think free is ok too.
Still on the fence with Meltas and Missiles, but chances are I will talk myself out of that too. Meltas are only 12" range after all... and sacrifice all those bolter rounds when they shoot at a tank... :-P
5369
Post by: Black Blow Fly
My template for an army features four lascannons in full tactical squads along with plasma guns. Two of these four tactical squads have a power fist and rhino. I will take one small Devastator squad with four heavy bolters and another squad with four missile launchers. Finally one or two thunderfire cannons and that takes care of my primary shooting. One to two veteran squads with bolters in rhinos for counter assault and contesting objectives. One hero such as master of the forge with conversion beam to round it all out.
G
1309
Post by: Lordhat
JohnHwangDD wrote:Crusherjoe wrote:
White Scars should have been forced to play as Ravenwing).
I agree with a lot of your post, but I can't let this slide. WS have always been 'the' Bike chapter, with the Ravenwing a close second. I was VERY disappointed with the v4 SM codex and what it did to my W.S. army, (the new rules actually CONTRADICTED their fluff) and I am excited to learn if they have gotten even a glimpse of their v3 glory back. In fact, if I DON'T like what's been done (with the marines in general, and White Scars in specific) you'll be seeing approx. 6,000 points of Marines for sale very shortly after the 'dex's release.
Just to iterate, I HATE the DA, and BA combat squads rules, lack of customization and arbitrary restrictions. I felt S.M.'s to be very balanced before these changes.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Wehrkind wrote:Well, at least so far as heavy bolters go, they do have two troublesome downsides: they can't move and shoot, and when shooting at range the rest of the squad with bolters sit on their hands. Well, that and they are not a lascannon.
Nah, they just have *one* downside - they are not a Lascannon. After all, nobody seriously whines about their Bolters sitting idle when they're firing the Lascannon at a Tank. Even for "FREE", I wouldn't ever take a Heavy Bolter in a Tactical squad, precisely because you're required to take the full 10 men first. If you could take a 5-man Combat Squad with "FREE" Heavy Bolter instead of Flamer (or Melta / Plasma), I'd consider the option. I think Heavy Bolters are only good en-masse, 4-deep in a Devastator squad. Otherwise, take the Lascannon. Now OTOH, the "FREE" ML isn't so bad, because Krak is pretty close in performance to a Lascannon, but has the Frag mode to make up the difference. The ML is at least fieldable in a Tac squad - for 20 pts saved, but even so, you want ML en masse.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Lordhat wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:White Scars should have been forced to play as Ravenwing).
I agree with a lot of your post, but I can't let this slide. WS have always been 'the' Bike chapter, with the Ravenwing a close second. [SNIP]
Just to iterate, I HATE the DA, and BA combat squads rules, lack of customization and arbitrary restrictions. I felt S.M.'s to be very balanced before these changes.
" WS have always been the bike chapter" since RT/2E, or just for a little while in 3E?
I recall when I was playing back in 2E, DA RW got a boxed set and was somewhat popular, but I don't recall any WS set. Actually, I don't recall WS figuring much at all back in those days, aside from being an obligatory paint scheme. Back in RT, Mentor Legion seemed to be much more famous as the iconic White Marines. But I didn't pay so much attention to all of the Fluff, so you might be correct.
I went through the Anger and Denial phases over Combat Squads, etc. at the tail end of 4th Edition. My trigger was the Eldar Codex. I now accept Combat Squads and am increasingly OK with the new approach moving into 5th Edition. I'm also OK that armies go up and down in power relative to other armies. I think GW would tell you that the safest thing to do is to collect everything, then you'll always have the flavor of the week.
1309
Post by: Lordhat
LOL That's why I have 6,000 points of Marines. I can literally put together 2,000 points worth of any marine type except for the extreme compositions; I.E. All Deathwing, White Scars (sniff), Etc.
I do however have enough models to field an all Jump infantry and Land Speeder support BA army at 2,000 points. And a (currently) effective Ravenguard army at 2500.
I'm trying to collect enough marines to play any chapter at any time, but if they ALL have the same organisational structure with limited variations on limited modifications to said structure, what's really the point of indicating a difference between any two?
EDIT: I want to reiterate, because I don't think I was as clear as I'd like in my last post:
IF the Whitescars get some decent rules that are not only effective, but also fluffy, I'll probably still play Marines. I can deal with the combat squads for a characterful representation of my Favorite chapter.
Well I seem to have answered my own question above. But I still think that If they're going to write rules for individual chapters they should write unique rules for those chapters. (Also, I am NOT basing my statements on the OP. Rumours are always rumours to me until I hold a copy in my hands. )
5559
Post by: Ratbarf
Well they actually do have the chapter specifc rules ifyou take the correct character. As to the representing White Scars well enough, you can see for yourself. There is a pic from the space marine book with the new white scar char in it and it tells you the chapter specific special rules for the white scars.
6885
Post by: Red_Lives
Kilkrazy wrote:I hope they don't make SMs too good because if they did, everyone will want to play them.
At the moment it is a refreshing change of pace to find an SM army among the endles hordes of IG, DE, Necrons and so on.
I can assure you it is the 100% reversal here in the states. There are more MEQ armies than anything else.
1963
Post by: Aduro
Red_Lives wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:I hope they don't make SMs too good because if they did, everyone will want to play them.
At the moment it is a refreshing change of pace to find an SM army among the endles hordes of IG, DE, Necrons and so on.
I can assure you it is the 100% reversal here in the states. There are more MEQ armies than anything else.
Depends on where in the states mayhaps, cause there ain't many marines `round these parts.
1088
Post by: rryannn
Aduro wrote:
Depends on where in the states mayhaps, cause there ain't many marines `round these parts.
lucky you.
New army books all around would be great. I cant wait for the guard rumors to start rolling around.
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Post by: Alpharius
Aduro wrote:Red_Lives wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:I hope they don't make SMs too good because if they did, everyone will want to play them.
At the moment it is a refreshing change of pace to find an SM army among the endles hordes of IG, DE, Necrons and so on.
I can assure you it is the 100% reversal here in the states. There are more MEQ armies than anything else.
Depends on where in the states mayhaps, cause there ain't many marines `round these parts.
Wait!
Did you just say "Mayhaps"?
171
Post by: Lorek
Mayhaps he did, Alpharius. Mayhaps he did.
I used that term Thursday last, and would fain use it again soon.
1099
Post by: Railguns
Hey, doesn't one of the characters give twin linked to all bolters 'n such? I wonder (if this is true of course) how good Sturmguard Vets would be with the "bolt rounds of ap3 but gets hot!" with the Bolter Boost Character, possibly using a Drop Pod to Deepstrike into rapid fire range mayhaps.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Lordhat wrote:LOL That's why I have 6,000 points of Marines. I can literally put together 2,000 points worth of any marine type except for the extreme compositions; I.E. All Deathwing, White Scars (sniff), Etc.
I'm trying to collect enough marines to play any chapter at any time, but if they ALL have the same organisational structure with limited variations on limited modifications to said structure, what's really the point of indicating a difference between any two?
Well I seem to have answered my own question above. But I still think that If they're going to write rules for individual chapters they should write unique rules for those chapters.
Hey, 8,000+ pts of Eldar didn't appear out of nowhere, either. Back when Eldar had Craftworlds, I could put together GT-sized armies for any of them.
except Saim-Hann, but nobody played Saim-Hann, so they didn't matter
As Jervis himself showed with his grey marines, SM are easier than Eldar (or CSM) because you don't (didn't) have quite as many distinct unit types. You just need the Chapter-specific Characters and units to have a new army. Though GW is "fixing" that with the additional Elites to give SM players more stuff to collect. I'm taking a more measured (ha!) approach to my SM, with a core and options. But somehow, even that's gotten to roughly 4k pts.
I agree that GW should write unique, distinctive rules for Chapters, but that GW should do some serious thinking about what kinds of Chapters they should have, so that the various Chapters don't overlap too much.
Railguns wrote:Hey, doesn't one of the characters give twin linked to all bolters 'n such? I wonder (if this is true of course) how good Sturmguard Vets would be with the "bolt rounds of ap3 but gets hot!" with the Bolter Boost Character, possibly using a Drop Pod to Deepstrike into rapid fire range mayhaps.
I'm sure Sturmguard would be great with the twin-linked Character. But I'm not sure that you would want to take 3 units of them when the other Elites are so interesting, or that the narrowness of the list concept would provide as much benefit as a more diverse selection.
1963
Post by: Aduro
Alpharius wrote:Wait!
Did you just say "Mayhaps"?
Ummm.... Yes?
123
Post by: Alpharius
Aduro wrote:Alpharius wrote:Wait!
Did you just say "Mayhaps"?
Ummm.... Yes?
You are a fit man, forsooth, to rule Dakka!
Verily!
518
Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Well I have a copy in front of me and I can confirm it's all true, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff.
However what a lot of people missed since it's in the fine print on the inside back cover is this:
Spase Marinez (HURR!) are intended as a starter army for new players. They may only be used by players younger than 18. More experienced players may use the Dark Angel codex which is traditionally intended for veteran players.
I think this is a reasonable choice on the part of GW and should silence a lot of critics.
383
Post by: bigchris1313
Kid_Kyoto wrote:Well I have a copy in front of me and I can confirm it's all true, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff.
Please tell me there are across-the-board point cuts. If not, Marinenz are dead. Oh noes!!
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Kid_Kyoto wrote:I think this is a reasonable choice on the part of GW and should silence a lot of critics.
Are fake ID's that make you younger even possible?
BYE
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
If GW do a series of special marine chapters who each have some special feature, like bikes or something, and they have the Ultramarines as the vanilla marines chapter, what is the point in a separate SM codex that lets you make special chapters with bikes or something, or vanilla marines?
Sorry for the long sentence.
2582
Post by: glon52
Are fake ID's that make you younger even possible?
If I ever get divorced, I'll let you know.
5394
Post by: reds8n
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are fake ID's that make you younger even possible?
BYE
I believe they are available in Hollywood and have been for years.
5912
Post by: GrandWarmasterPinto
I'm wondering if they are going to put some special text in the book to say the older Marine books can use some if not all of the new units or if they are just going to get the cold shoulder? It would be pretty lame if the other chapters just had sit out and look at the new vanilla toys.
123
Post by: Alpharius
The 4th to 5th "Conversion FAQs" might address this.
But I think that the other SM chapters might just be left out in the cold on some of the new toys/units.
Presumably, the 'benefits' in their own codices will outweigh this the loss of new stuff...
5912
Post by: GrandWarmasterPinto
Well while they're at converting Space Marines maybe they can convert me some daemonic gifts back  . I still feel bad for the Space Wolves though, two editions and they're still using a third edition codex.
131
Post by: malfred
Hellfury wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:I hope they don't make SMs too good because if they did, everyone will want to play them.
At the moment it is a refreshing change of pace to find an SM army among the endles hordes of IG, DE, Necrons and so on.
Bandwagon jumpers happen with every new codex, so you really shouldn't be surprised there.
Geez guys. This thread is made completely out of knee-jerk reactions. More than most threads here.
There have been a couple people on that same thread that seem to validate most of the rumours though. So get your hankies, because your crying circle is going to need a fresh supply.
The only people who should play a new army should be people who played
all previous iterations of that army. That way we could run the paradox into
the reality machine and make sure GW never existed.
(Except Andy Chambers. I think he WAS an ork, once upon a time)
123
Post by: Alpharius
Heh!
Good one...
I don't think we have to worry about too many new SM players...
The ORKS are going to be where it is at in 5th!
4670
Post by: Wehrkind
Yes, grey plastic and black primered ork hordes will rule the galaxy!
Ye, verily, forsooth! (Which was our geek gangsign in college for about two weeks until something else shiney distracted us.)
5478
Post by: Panic
yeah...
with the new SM special characters army-wide abilites.
Does the army lose the abilities if the Chartacter dies?
Eg if the sally character dies then no more twinned linked meltas/flamers
This is how it is with the tallyman epidemius.
...
PAnic...
459
Post by: Hellfury
Iorek wrote:Mayhaps he did, Alpharius. Mayhaps he did.
I used that term Thursday last, and would fain use it again soon.
[archaic perorative pedantic and pleonastic post]
Aye, methinks thou uses the term fain incorrectly. Verily and properly spelled as feign.
Mayhaps thou should agnize the local vocabulary constabulary with rogation and, anon, accept the tidings of 12 lashes as thy meed. If thou dost, t'would be a palliate salve to thee.
'I used the term Thursday last, and would deign to use it again soon, methinks.'
[/archaic perorative pedantic and pleonastic post]
You may all mock me now.
459
Post by: Hellfury
Double post, please delete
6500
Post by: MinMax
Hellfury wrote:Iorek wrote:Mayhaps he did, Alpharius. Mayhaps he did.
I used that term Thursday last, and would fain use it again soon.
[archaic perorative pedantic and pleonastic post]
Aye, methinks thou uses the term fain incorrectly. Verily and properly spelled as feign.
Mayhaps thou should agnize the local vocabulary constabulary with rogation and, anon, accept the tidings of 12 lashes as thy meed. If thou dost, t'would be a palliate salve to thee.
'I used the term Thursday last, and would deign to use it again soon, methinks.'
[/archaic perorative pedantic and pleonastic post]
You may all mock me now.
Fain is actually a word, Hellfury, and it was used correctly. "Feign" is an altogether different word.
Fain
459
Post by: Hellfury
MinMax wrote:Fain is actually a word, Hellfury, and it was used correctly. "Feign" is an altogether different word.
Fain
*sigh* Yes, I am aware that fain is a word.
You missed the point of the 'archaic perorative pedantic and pleonastic post'.
To be overly verbose and to use as much archaic Elizabethan as possible.
In other words, a joke mate. Thanks for playing.
411
Post by: whitedragon
Obviously you didn't use enough emoticons.
131
Post by: malfred
"You're so fain.
You want for this song to be about you."
I don't think you lose abilities when the character dies.
459
Post by: Hellfury
*kills malfred*
Nope, it seems you lost your ability to.... 'be funky'.
131
Post by: malfred
Hellfury wrote:*kills malfred*
Nope, it seems you lost your ability to.... 'be funky'.
Erm, sorry.
I meant the army probably wouldn't lose its abilities.
So your funk would still exist.
1464
Post by: Breotan
malfred wrote:So your funk would still exist.
Just get some hot soapy water and you'll have that cleared up in no time.
5369
Post by: Black Blow Fly
Power armor = "R0X0R N THE B0X0R"
AGAIN!!!
Hurrr hurrr!
G
621
Post by: Lowinor
Hrm.
Assuming one goes Salamanders and gets twin-linked flamers, and flamers are free, they seem to actually be... a useful alternative to plasma.
I mean, a plasma gun kills 1* marine per turn double tapped. A twin-linked flamer kills 3/4 * 1/3 = 1/4 per marine touched, so it has equivalent kill power at 4 marines touched. With a 5+ cover save, 3 marines touched gives better results to the TL flamer, 2 on a 4+ cover save. Now, the plasma gun does considerably better against terminators (outside of cover, the plasma gun kills 2/3 per round, TL flamer kills 1/8 per touch, needing 6 touches to compare; at a 4+ cover save, that changes to 4 touches) and has a range advantage, but given combat squads, the 24" shot seems less useful as the typical loadout is probably going to be a 5 man combat squad with a special and a 5 man combat squad with a heavy, removing much of a point to standing and shooting at 24" along with the heavy weapon... Of course, that 1 marine dead for the plasma gun doesn't improve on weaker targets -- that's one fire warrior, one ork, one guard. The flamer goes up to 4/9 vs T3 4+ troops, 8/9 on T3 5+ or worse, requiring barely over two touches to compare on T3 4+ and barely more than one to compare when shooting anything weaker.
Of course, the plasma gets better in comparison for cleaning up squads with less than four models left due to lack of potential touches, but hopefully you've got some bolters left in the squad to help there.
In any case, it's looking like there's going to be actual choices for the special weapon slot, at least depending on chapter used.
And that's not evening mentioning the TL melta which gets 20/27 dead marines...
Edit: Forgot the AP5 on a flamer. oops.
* 2 * 2/3 * 5/6 comes out to 10/9, but that's for one turn of shooting, the real value (with Gets Hot triggering on 1s) is on the attached image (with k being the number of rounds you fire the gun). Assuming we get to fire the plasma gun for three turns in a game, the actual value ends up as 1.002, so 1 is a pretty reasonable value...
1
1026
Post by: ColonelEllios
You guys still knee-jerking over what a mail order troll said over the phone?
:S
6210
Post by: Le Grognard
ColonelEllios wrote:You guys still knee-jerking over what a mail order troll said over the phone?
:S
Oh, foresooth and verily! Anything stated by a Troll or Redshirt has to be gospel, correct?
383
Post by: bigchris1313
reds8n wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are fake ID's that make you younger even possible?
BYE
I believe they are available in Hollywood and have been for years.
Actually, when I was a young lad living in Los Angeles I obtained mine on Alvarado Blvd, across the street from McCarther Park. You know, by the huge sign that says Rampart Division. No joke.
383
Post by: bigchris1313
MinMax wrote:Hellfury wrote:Iorek wrote:Mayhaps he did, Alpharius. Mayhaps he did.
I used that term Thursday last, and would fain use it again soon.
[archaic perorative pedantic and pleonastic post]
Aye, methinks thou uses the term fain incorrectly. Verily and properly spelled as feign.
Mayhaps thou should agnize the local vocabulary constabulary with rogation and, anon, accept the tidings of 12 lashes as thy meed. If thou dost, t'would be a palliate salve to thee.
'I used the term Thursday last, and would deign to use it again soon, methinks.'
[/archaic perorative pedantic and pleonastic post]
You may all mock me now.
Fain is actually a word, Hellfury, and it was used correctly. "Feign" is an altogether different word.
Fain
Yes. I remember the last time I FD'd in Lower Guk. The Froglok Assassin saw through it--I swear!--and killed me. And let me tell you: when I was a boy, we didn't have any fancy "Summon Corpse" spell. No sir. And good luck using "Sense Corpse" in a dungeon.
6109
Post by: Sturnreaper
Upon seeing these rumors I know in my heart GW has gone off the deep end and I just think . Its like they make all these sweet rules which should be army specific like the new Dark Angels and their squad splitting and the Chaos Daemon Deep Strike rules which are the same as these "Drop Pod" rules. I took the new changes in the CSM book with a grain of salt but this is ridiculous. I hope in some way Tzeencth intervenes and this all becomes only rumors and the final book is much MUCH more toned down.
5559
Post by: Ratbarf
Upon seeing the discusion veer off to proper Elizabethen grammar I knew in my heart that dakka is full of Old English grammar nazis...
459
Post by: Hellfury
Ratbarf wrote:Upon seeing the discusion veer off to proper Elizabethen grammar I knew in my heart that dakka is full of Old English grammar nazis...
I swear on the queen's virginal baby cave, tis the ale speaking the mind for me!
4892
Post by: akira5665
Two Bucks??!?!?!?
That's it, I have decided where I want to retire.....
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
What, you don't have lousy cheap beer in OZ?
4042
Post by: Da Boss
They do, but it's more expensive than your lousy cheap beer. Last night I was drinking the cheapest stout I could find and it was 2 euro. 2 euro!
Bastids.
Why wouldn't they lose the rule when the leader dies?
It makes sense to me.
1426
Post by: Voodoo Boyz
Da Boss wrote:They do, but it's more expensive than your lousy cheap beer. Last night I was drinking the cheapest stout I could find and it was 2 euro. 2 euro!
Bastids.
Why wouldn't they lose the rule when the leader dies?
It makes sense to me.
You live in the land where they make the best Stout in the world and it is widely available. Stop complaining or those of us who have to travel a fair distance to get a locally brewed Stout will have to fly over there and whack you upside the head....and then sit down with you to have a stout.
4042
Post by: Da Boss
If you're ever over here, let me know. I'll buy you some nice stout. None of your mass produced guinness malarky either. I'll get you something brewed right there, in a microbrewer. Or maybe something nice like some O'Hara's.
Then you can engage in the grand Irish tradition of slightly drunken wargaming.
752
Post by: Polonius
Two things:
1) I would argue that the army wouldn't lose the rule when the leader dies because the rule is a reflection of the training and doctirne the leader imparts before the battle, not his direction during it.
2) Stout is always a bit more expensive than lager. OE and the other 40's are generally "Malt Liquor", which is really vile stuff. There's a brand available here in cleveland that once proudly read on the can "Now with more ingredients." Ah, college.
4042
Post by: Da Boss
"Now with more ingredients"?
Oh that is brilliant!
The reason stout costs more than lager is cos lager tastes like cold urine. How do I know what cold urine tastes like you ask? Well I'm not at liberty to answer that one.
As to the army rule thing- I suppose it could depend how it's worded. I take your point, but if they didn't specifically state that the rule is kept post mortem then I think there would be an argument for it to be dropped.
752
Post by: Polonius
Well, I didn't know if you meant your question in terms of game design theory or actualy YMDC. If it's the former, I think there's good reasons for both. For example, eldar are fearless around the avatar because he is inspiring, but if he dies they probably lose their stuff. On the other hand, Farsight trains his boys to fight orks, so even if he bites it, they'll still be ork fighters.
I really, really hope that GW has learned how to write a rule to not be ambigious.
4042
Post by: Da Boss
I agree with you, and I also hope so. It's always embarassing when they don't spot this stuff.
6500
Post by: MinMax
I think the Chapter Tactics will be probably be permanent, even if the leader dies. This way, it would be like the Black Templars' Vows, which the army keeps even if the Champion dies.
5369
Post by: Black Blow Fly
Did someone mention stout???
G
5559
Post by: Ratbarf
Oh good grief... you have all turned into a bunch of bloody orcs dat ar gunna get da ba're and da stout' an dat funnicky stuff wit da mushrooms...
Did it ever occur to anyone that the Irish are the basis for the orcs? Maybe?
4250
Post by: Smashotron
Did someone mention urine???
4595
Post by: CaptainLoken
I was just thinking (dangerous, I know...)
If the new DA and BA dexes were made with 5th Ed in mind, why would the new SM codex be so different? I mean, you have an entire codex, the DA one, that would not sell 1 copy if the rumors were true.
Not 1 book. Except, for those players that wanted to play a DW/RW army. Would YOU pay $20 for that? I wouldn't.
So, why would GW do that? It makes no sense. Even the CSM codex, and the Eldar one to an extent, is the same in design as the DA codex. Are you trying to tell me that GW would release 3 new codex books and a "minidex", which all look and work in a similar way, and then release a codex that completely destroys all their efforts?
It just makes no sense...
I'm thinking the rumors are WAAAAAYYYYYY off..........as in.......keep dreaming! :S
844
Post by: stonefox
Why would they do that? Maybe cuz those that have played DA will have to switch over in order to get the better rules. In addition, people who would have bought the DA rules will instead buy the SM rules. So you'd get the same number of books sold (though SM instead of DA) and in addition you'd sell SM books to those who have bought DA books previously. Makes sense to me.
Plus, they've been releasing 10 flavors of marines which all work in a similar way for years - then release an uber-marine book. See BA in 3rd ed and spiky marines with caution stripes in 4th ed. Why stop now?
621
Post by: Lowinor
Check out the Eldar vs. Marines battle report in the 5th ed rulebook.
Some thing that spring to mind:
Autocannon/HB Predator: 85 points.
Un-upgraded Rhino: 35 points.
10-man tactical squad with flamer + heavy bolter: 170 points
10-man tactical squad with flamer + missile launcher: 170 points
5 man scout squad (with no listed upgraded): 90 points
10-man assault squad with vet. sergeant with power fist: 235 points
And then a tip in the report itself discusses marine tactical squads splitting into combat squads.
So, if this is correct (and not a result of GW's notoriously erroneous battle reports), some things to glean:
- Cheap, cheap, cheap predator sponsons. Of course, they're much weaker than they used to be, but 85 points is a really good deal for an autocannon/hb pred, even if sponsons are weak.
- Heavy bolters and missile launchers cost the same amount.
- The "buy ten marines, get flamer + weak^H^H^H^Hcheaper heavy weapon free" rumor fits, just with 17 point marines. Which is a slight point increase, as (from memory at least, I don't have my SM codex handy), that's a 9 and 4 point increase in cost over the current codex respectively.
- Something in assault marines is (slightly) cheaper.
- Combat squads are the Way Things Work in 5th.
6838
Post by: 1hadhq
Lowinor wrote:Check out the Eldar vs. Marines battle report in the 5th ed rulebook.
Some thing that spring to mind:
Autocannon/HB Predator: 85 points.
Un-upgraded Rhino: 35 points.
10-man tactical squad with flamer + heavy bolter: 170 points
10-man tactical squad with flamer + missile launcher: 170 points
5 man scout squad (with no listed upgraded): 90 points
10-man assault squad with vet. sergeant with power fist: 235 points
And then a tip in the report itself discusses marine tactical squads splitting into combat squads.
So, if this is correct (and not a result of GW's notoriously erroneous battle reports), some things to glean:
- Cheap, cheap, cheap predator sponsons. Of course, they're much weaker than they used to be, but 85 points is a really good deal for an autocannon/hb pred, even if sponsons are weak.
- Heavy bolters and missile launchers cost the same amount.
- The "buy ten marines, get flamer + weak^H^H^H^Hcheaper heavy weapon free" rumor fits, just with 17 point marines. Which is a slight point increase, as (from memory at least, I don't have my SM codex handy), that's a 9 and 4 point increase in cost over the current codex respectively.
- Something in assault marines is (slightly) cheaper.
- Combat squads are the Way Things Work in 5th.
cheaper as dex = -70 vs more expensive = +83 =>result +13 up!
heavy price tag :
without new features: Cybot +25, Cpt +25.
pay for rules: scouts +25.
:S :S :S
4921
Post by: Kallbrand
Sounds very reasonable NOT.
The basic crap CSM would cost 175 for 10+flamer and ML, without any special rule or reroll.
459
Post by: Hellfury
Good catch Lowinor.
18 Points for scouts without any upgrades is a pretty heavy price though.
They better be GOOD!
6838
Post by: 1hadhq
Kallbrand wrote:Sounds very reasonable NOT.
The basic crap CSM would cost 175 for 10+flamer and ML, without any special rule or reroll.
CSM: 10x15+5+10=165
SM 2004: 10x15+6+10=166 :S
SM from above play-example: 170
result = 2004 SM/ CSM => same price, 2008 SM/ CSM => SM+5 points (for combat squad rule?)
4921
Post by: Kallbrand
Ahh, my bad on the calqulation abit, am so used to including the IoCG that I forgot it.
SM is +5 pts for ATSKNF, combat squad and combat tactics. Or 5 points less if compared to someone that might reroll LD, if the icon carrier is still alive.
The comparison to old SM is almost as disturbing, +4 points for combatsquads, combat tactics and boltpistol/bolter combination.
7366
Post by: quietus86
don't now I think duvel beats any iris brue belgium is da land of de beer (dark and light ) hell even half de iris ale's are like cat piss ( and england hasn't even got a good ale any wear )
6584
Post by: Plastic Parody
Deadshane1 wrote:If all this is true, hopefully the point cost will be astronimical for all those toys...evening it out.
They better be! Hope the future NON Marine dexes get all this effort put in!
117
Post by: Tribune
Lowinor wrote:10-man tactical squad with flamer + heavy bolter: 170 points
10-man tactical squad with flamer + missile launcher: 170 points
5 man scout squad (with no listed upgraded): 90 points
10-man assault squad with vet. sergeant with power fist: 235 points
...
So, if this is correct (and not a result of GW's notoriously erroneous battle reports), some things to glean:
...
- Heavy bolters and missile launchers cost the same amount.
- The "buy ten marines, get flamer + weak^H^H^H^Hcheaper heavy weapon free" rumor fits, just with 17 point marines. Which is a slight point increase, as (from memory at least, I don't have my SM codex handy), that's a 9 and 4 point increase in cost over the current codex respectively.
- Something in assault marines is (slightly) cheaper.
Sorry to disagree, but I think you're going to find that space marines will again cost 15 points each
(HINT: the rulebook says so when talking about comparative points costs of marines vs. orks and quotes Marines as 15)
In the above examples:
10-man tactical squad with flamer + heavy bolter is
10x 15pts
1 x 5pts flamer
1x 15 points heavy bolter
10-man tactical squad with flamer + missile launcher is the same, just that MLs will also be 15 points for tacticals
As for assault marines, they'll be costed the same as CSM, which is 20 points per.
And so, 10-man assault squad with vet. sergeant with power fist comes to 235 points thus
10x 20pts
1x 15pts vet sgt
1x20 pts power fist
All pretty standard comparison to the CSM points for likewise. Why do Marines get the combat tactics rules and apparently ATSKNF (or similar) for no more? Who knows? Apart from the obvious sales implicatons, of course.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Which means that Fists have gotten worse in the new rules, and gone up in price.
Good ol' GW over-balancing.
BYE
117
Post by: Tribune
Oh and by the way, I didn't see mention of the rumours over at Warseer of Razorbacks going back to toting various weapon fits again: twin HB, Heavy Flamers, Assault Cannons, Multimelta, Lascannon, and the old Lascannon with twin plasma guns
As per http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146067
Since they are available as transports, and you can now select a squad bigger than the capacity of your transport, what price the option of multiple light weapon platforms which I recall was all the rage in 3rd edition?
H.B.M.C. wrote:Which means that Fists have gotten worse in the new rules, and gone up in price.
Good ol' GW over-balancing.
BYE
Well, first of all, I just realised that power fists are actually 25 points in the CSM codex, so 20 points (if right) would mean a relative bargain compared to their spiky cousins. Secondly, define over balancing, in a way that doesn't scream 'subjective reasoning'
5559
Post by: Ratbarf
I beleive you may actually have to pay an extra 5 points in there somewhere and then the only difference from the current codex as to marine price is you have to buy the terminator honours upgrade for the seargent like in the DA book. There it is 165 for ten marines. So maybe they just had to pay 5 for a heavy?
358
Post by: DonkeyCannon
Something I haven't heard mentioned yet. Chaos Space Marines come with Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CC Weapon. As far as I know Space Marines come with Bolter and Bolt Pistol OR CC Weapon. In close combat 10 Chaos Space Marines have the attacks of 20 standard Space Marines. I don't care what they do in the new Space Marine codex CSM are still amazing.
1544
Post by: brassangel
Seeing as how GW has actually done a great job with the generic lists for all armies in 40k and Fantasy the last 2-3 years, I have a hard time believing that the Space Marines will be "broken." Every new idea/set of rules always feels busted until people get used to playing with, and/or against it.
117
Post by: Tribune
DonkeyCannon wrote:Something I haven't heard mentioned yet. Chaos Space Marines come with Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CC Weapon. As far as I know Space Marines come with Bolter and Bolt Pistol OR CC Weapon. In close combat 10 Chaos Space Marines have the attacks of 20 standard Space Marines. I don't care what they do in the new Space Marine codex CSM are still amazing.
It has been posted that loyalist marines will have the bolt pistol, CC, bolt gun, frag, krak combo also. If so, 15 points per marine will seem quite a deal if they also have combat tactics and ATSKNF (or it's replacement)
621
Post by: Lowinor
Tribune wrote:DonkeyCannon wrote:Something I haven't heard mentioned yet. Chaos Space Marines come with Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CC Weapon. As far as I know Space Marines come with Bolter and Bolt Pistol OR CC Weapon. In close combat 10 Chaos Space Marines have the attacks of 20 standard Space Marines. I don't care what they do in the new Space Marine codex CSM are still amazing.
It has been posted that loyalist marines will have the bolt pistol, CC, bolt gun, frag, krak combo also. If so, 15 points per marine will seem quite a deal if they also have combat tactics and ATSKNF (or it's replacement)
I've seen it rumored with or without the close combat weapons -- bolter, bolt pistol, krak (which are actually useful now) and frag all standard. Big question is if they get that second attack -- personally I'd be very surprised if they do.
117
Post by: Tribune
It's a big deal if they don't get the CCW, as you rightly say. It would allow CSM to retain their flavour as the somewhat more CC oriented force, if so.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
I'd guess SM to be:
- Bolter
- BP *or* CCW (not both)
- Frag & Krak
If SM are B&BP&CCW, that's just too much rules advantage on top of the CSM gear profile. I know GW loves their SM, but I can't see them going that far to make CSM so obsolete so quickly.
411
Post by: whitedragon
Well if Marines do get the BP and CCW + Bolter, then all us chaos players can just use "counts as" and use the regular marine dex for our Chaos fun.
This is how it would work;
Dreadnought = Chaos Dread (and no fire frenzy!)
Siege Dreadnought = Defiler/Soulgrinder
Scouts = Lesser Demons (And get 4+ save + infiltrate!)
Land Raider = Chaos Land Raider (with a machine spirit!)
Sternguard Vets = Thousand Sons (with extra ammo!)
Etc...
It actually works out pretty nicely!
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Post by: Boss Salvage
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Post by: Alpharius
whitedragon wrote:Well if Marines do get the BP and CCW + Bolter, then all us chaos players can just use "counts as" and use the regular marine dex for our Chaos fun.
This is how it would work;
Dreadnought = Chaos Dread (and no fire frenzy!)
Siege Dreadnought = Defiler/Soulgrinder
Scouts = Lesser Demons (And get 4+ save + infiltrate!)
Land Raider = Chaos Land Raider (with a machine spirit!)
Sternguard Vets = Thousand Sons (with extra ammo!)
Etc...
It actually works out pretty nicely!
Hey, that does work nicely!
And with LEGION muddying the fluff waters so well, ALPHA's as loyalists, for real, for the win!
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Post by: Tribune
JohnHwangDD wrote:If SM are B&BP&CCW, that's just too much rules advantage on top of the CSM gear profile. I know GW loves their SM, but I can't see them going that far to make CSM so obsolete so quickly.
John, come on now, the GW response will obviously be 'But Chaos get those amazing icons. Be Happy!'
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Post by: Schepp himself
A combo of Bolter & Bolt pistol or close combat weapon & grenades strikes me as highly slowed. I mean, the codex is supposed to be customizable (you know, lack of traits etc.), so more melee orientated chapters are supposed to be able to get a Bolt pistol & close combat weapon option.
I bet my donkey on it!
Greets
Schepp himself
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Melee-oriented chapters can take WS3 Sv4+ Scouts, or they can pay more points for the privilege to play as Red Marines or Black Marines.
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Post by: Cruentus
Red Marines don't even have BP/CCW and they're RED! If they want BP/CCW they have to buy assault maines.
I can't see them handing that out to every chapter. Then the Black marines would complain.
And I certainly would hope that the Pfist would go up in price to 25 points to match CSM, IG, DH, and every other codex that uses them.
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Post by: Hellfury
I hope power fists remain cheap due to not being able to get more than a single attack with it unless you have two.
That and I will miss the incessant whining about Space marines if they raise the prices.
Please GW, please don't allow the kneejerk reactions of the overly sensitive butterflies to go away.
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Post by: Cruentus
Hellfury wrote:I hope power fists remain cheap due to not being able to get more than a single attack with it unless you have two.
That and I will miss the incessant whining about Space marines if they raise the prices.
Please GW, please don't allow the kneejerk reactions of the overly sensitive butterflies to go away.
You mean reduce prices for Powerfists like in the C: CSM, DA, and BA codexes/lists? The ones that were 'made with 5th edition in mind'? Those prices?
Certainly there wouldn't be any whining if they reduced them in the marine dex compared to every other marine army.
And I am one of those Marine players, BA to be exact, and I don't mind paying the extra points, because they were stupid useful in 3rd/4th, even at 25 pts. Now they're only less so, but you pay through the nose for it and I still use them.
Come on, you know that good old GW will knee jerk them into the next edition. The pendulum doth swing too far.... as usual
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Cruentus wrote:Red Marines don't even have BP/CCW and they're RED! If they want BP/CCW they have to buy assault maines.
I can't see them handing that out to every chapter. Then the Black marines would complain.
Red Marines have Assault Marines as Troops.
Black Marines don't buy a "FREE" Crazy Marine with each squad, nor "FREE" turbofans with each squaddie. I'm sure the Black Marines are just fine.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
I just want to say that hearing 'red marines' and 'black marines' used in a serious discussion brings a warm feeling to my heart.
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Post by: Silverthorne
Will there be a model for the new razorbacks? I assume if they are just ressurected from a previous edition as was stated earlier, that they used to have models, and those will be put back into production? That would be handy. Tactical squad, with flamer and heavy bolter, in a razorback with twin assault cannons, or a Tactical squad with melta and multimelta, in a razor with multi melta? I like both of those builds, if you kept the center hatch open on the rhinos you could really customize for whatever force you were fighting. Nice.
Or, my new favorite- 6 sternguard veterans with 2 heavy flamers, 4 combo flamers, in a razorback with a twin linked heavy flamer. With the new all-at-once template rules, that isn't even an anti-horde weapon, it is an anti-anything below T6 weapon. Against hordes, obviously, it is disgusting. And then you can always switch over to hellfire mags whenever the Carnifex wanders over. Hawt.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
They can't bring the old razorback back, it was based on the old Rhino. Aside from the heavy bolters and lascannons, a model only existed for the old lasgun-and-plasmas config.
Giving them assault cannons and/or heavy flamers would be adding insult to injury, though. Is there ANYTHING that the Space Marines cannot excel at?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Agamemnon2 wrote:Giving them assault cannons and/or heavy flamers would be adding insult to injury, though. Is there ANYTHING that the Space Marines cannot excel at?
Varied Troops choices?
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Post by: LordRavurion
You mean the fact they have 2 trooop choiches?? there are cidices that do not have 2 you know, like necrons. INHO even Tau, because I do not like kroot al that much.
From those 2 types you can make a variety of multipurpose squads. Like marine antitroop or tank, but also ranged scouts (snipers), cc scouts (bp+ccw) or medium ranged scouts (bolters and possibly a heavy).
I think that those are at least 4 fairly different options (marines are marines, regardless of support, so I do not count them as 2 choiches.)
all in all, I think they do have varied troopchoiches...
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