From BoLS:

Hi guys,

Games Day Chicago is over, and our Bothan spies tell us the following based on a review of Codex:Space Marines

In general, almost all of the latest round of rumors are correct. The codex is described as lavish, with a large color section, and clocking in at nearly 150 pages. Lets dive right into some of the details:

HQs
Master
Has well over 20 wargear options, and access to a once per game S:10 AP:1 Orbital Strike that is somewhat similar to the Witchhunter power.

Librarian
Leadership 10, and has an entire page of various powers. Big news is the Psychic Hood which now has a range of 24" instead of infinite.

Master of the Forge
Access to the Conversion Beamer, an old-school Rogue Trader era weapon with a 72" range that grows more powerful the greater the distance to its targets. At its top end, it is S:10 AP:1 Large Blast.

Elites
Terminators
Available in squad sizes of 5-10. Stormshields for Assault Termys confirmed as 3+ invulnerable vs all attacks (assault and shooting).

Techmarines
Has a power allowing you to improve the cover save of a single piece of ruins in your deployment zone by +1. Access to the Thunderfire Cannon, which is artillery and has multiple fire modes based upon 4 small blast markers. One of the fire modes makes its target count as being in difficult ground next turn. ~neat!

Honor Guard
These bad boys have access to "Relic blades" which are +2S powerweapons. Their squad leader is the "Company Champion" who is required to direct attacks vs enemy ICs if possible. ~cool!

Troops
Tactical Squads
Available in 5-10 men. Squads of ten grant access to Flamer/Multimelta/Missile Launcher/Heavy Bolter for FREE. ~Heed the words of the Codex Astartes indeed!

Scouts
WS/BS:3; the heavy bolter option has access to Hellfire rounds.

Land Speeder Storm
Scout transport land speeder nullifies enemy teleport homers and icons within 6". Enemy deepstrikers within 12" roll double scatter. Enemy units who are assualted from it are at -2 Leadership.

Combat Tactics
New marine special rule allows you to voluntarily fail any morale check for any unit in the army.

ICs
Shrike (Raven Guard)
Grants the entire army Fleet instead of Combat Tactics. He has rending lightning claws and Infiltrate.

Cantor (Crimson Fists)
Grants the entire army Stubborn instead of Combat Tactics. Sternguard Veterans count as scoring units.

Forgot the linky:

http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2008/07/sneak-peak-codex-space-marines.html

Orbital strike for the master is cool. Not too practical, but still very cool.

I really hope the new uberstormshields are passed onto the other Imperial armies.

They'd be neat for taking lascannon shots for Grey Knight armies. A Deathwing army with 25 TH/SS and 5 cyclones would be fun too. And so would BA Vets w/ Stormshields.

Why do we even bother playing other races?

This is just too messed up. GW has failed us all in a major way.

Why are enemy units at -2 leadership when being assaulted by young boys in their vest and pants, when they've spent the rest of the battle fighting 8ft tall superhumans in power armour? What is scary about that?!

"Quick lads, run before we get arrested!"

Jayden63 wrote:Why do we even bother playing other races?

This is just too messed up. GW has failed us all in a major way.

Because in the end, this is how it works:

New rulebook comes out.

Marines go to top of the heap (so people think).

Then builds from both old and new codices come out to crush marines without mercy.

Marine players whine that their cheese didn't last long enough.

"Game changing" new rules announced.

Rinse and repeat.

Where ya been man?

Been this way for 20 years.

Greebynog wrote:Why are enemy units at -2 leadership when being assaulted by young boys in their vest and pants, when they've spent the rest of the battle fighting 8ft tall superhumans in power armour? What is scary about that?!

"Quick lads, run before we get arrested!"

Because in the off chance that a 5 man scout squad (WS3, S4, I4, 4+ save) gets to own you...they get to run you down for free, and then you blast them to bits next turn.

Or so it goes in playtesting, where the scouts are found to be humorous.

Now when the FAQ says 'if engaged in combat, this bull ability STILL works' and you hammer someones entire army to death with it AND it's cumulative...

Yeah, then you can quit.

yum, wants to make me try a raven guard army, shrike + 20 (assault) veterns and some troop choice etc... might give it a crack..

Cheers,
Gutteridge

The Land Speeder Storm is beyond belief. I've got to see this in print.

Wait to see the points of an entire army before we cry "Cheese" and "BS".

The scariest abilities in the game dont mean much if you've got 25 models in a 2000pt force.

....just the same, the techmarine "artillery" peices are pretty neat and might cause me to actually start to 'dabble' with Iron Hands after letting the two last codeii pass by....

Thanks (to you & BoLS) for the scoop. Shameless commentary to follow:

Blackspade wrote:Big news is the Psychic Hood which now has a range of 24" instead of infinite.

Well overdue.

Blackspade wrote:Terminators
Available in squad sizes of 5-10. Stormshields for Assault Termys confirmed as 3+ invulnerable vs all attacks (assault and shooting).

Surprised not to see the 3-10 option that's started popping up for other terminators (and Wraithguard).

The 3+ inv sounds pretty crazy. I know GW want to encourage people to use massed fire rather than min maxing las/plas or similar, but is this excessive? Of course, if you can't consolidate into a new combat, there's hope for the intelligent opponent.

Blackspade wrote:Honor Guard
These bad boys have access to "Relic blades" which are +2S powerweapons.

So much for the ultra-rarity of Grey Knight power weapons.

Blackspade wrote:Tactical Squads
Available in 5-10 men. Squads of ten grant access to Flamer/Multimelta/Missile Launcher/Heavy Bolter for FREE. ~Heed the words of the Codex Astartes indeed!

Well this is springing up often enough to seem fairly corroborated by now. Intrigued by the inclusion of a multimelta in that list, perhaps GW wanted to encourage anything but Las & plas at this point. I'll be inbterested to see how people adapt to this, once we get past the usual anger/denial/depression stages.

Blackspade wrote:Land Speeder Storm
Scout transport land speeder nullifies enemy teleport homers and icons within 6". Enemy deepstrikers within 12" roll double scatter. Enemy units who are assualted from it are at -2 Leadership.

They make a good start with this one, presenting a unit with tactical applications to limit/prevent DS but then ruin it by going overboard with that -2 Ld rule. Do some boy scouts jumping at your head have the same emotional impact as seeing two of your squadmates (let's call them Johhny and Fred) killed in close quarters? I think not.

Blackspade wrote:Combat Tactics
New marine special rule allows you to voluntarily fail any morale check for any unit in the army.

Ahhh, I'd previously read this as voluntary pass or fail. This is still very useful, but more limited. Can SM's therefore limit horde assault armies by being charged, surviving the initial assault, falling back to then open up with full firepower in their own turn? Some might argue that's very 'characterful'

Blackspade wrote:Cantor (Crimson Fists)
Grants the entire army Stubborn instead of Combat Tactics. Sternguard Veterans count as scoring units.

If I played SM, I'd probably like this. Stubborn is a damn useful USR. I like that they make you give up Combat Tactics to get access to the new 'version' of traits in this way.

Stelek wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:Why do we even bother playing other races?

This is just too messed up. GW has failed us all in a major way.

Because in the end, this is how it works:

New rulebook comes out.

Marines go to top of the heap (so people think).

Then builds from both old and new codices come out to crush marines without mercy.

Exactly!

Might Marines in game performance now come closer to matching their fluff?

Finally?

JohnHwangDD wrote:The Land Speeder Storm is beyond belief. I've got to see this in print.

Yeah I'm with Jonny on this one - that list of rules just sounds like too much.

The rest is still bizzare - free heavy weapon upgrades? What are they thinking? - but that Land Speeder is just silly.

BYE

Believe it or not, I don't think any of this is going to be nearly as overpowered as everyone thinks they will be.

Marines will need to be in squads of 10 to be useful. That's a fairly hefty amount of points. And it's not like the synergy between the Flamer and those heavy weapons is all that great. IMO I'd probably want my tacticals on the move with Heavy weapons fire being relegated to Devs or Vehicles.

Voodoo, isn't the synergy issue dealt with by splitting the 10-man squad? Combat squad with special, the other with heavy.

I don't see the Tac squads as a problem in this codex. It's the other toys that will tempt people into taking unbalanced armies, yet again. Already people are focussing on the availablity (or not) of their 'crutch' weapons, rather than the troops that carry them. Then again, I believe that's borne out of a mindset (which I don't share) that firepower ranks above mobility and good battlefield position.

What I want to know is how are they going to codex-creep their way out of this? What will they give the IG (if indeed it is coming out next) to keep them at a similar power level?

Or will we just get a box of plastic stormtroopers, one new special character, the removal of Last Chancers and a recut Leman Russ that still looks the same, but the tank commander has a new hat?

I think you can guess which I think more likely.

Tribune wrote:Voodoo, isn't the synergy issue dealt with by splitting the 10-man squad? Combat squad with special, the other with heavy.

I don't see the Tac squads as a problem in this codex. It's the other toys that will tempt people into taking unbalanced armies, yet again. Already people are focussing on the availablity (or not) of their 'crutch' weapons, rather than the troops that carry them. Then again, I believe that's borne out of a mindset (which I don't share) that firepower ranks above mobility and good battlefield position.

The only thing I see as being really good is the one character that lets sternguard vets count as scoring. Then all of a sudden Drop Pods with them get very scary very quickly - depending on their points.

I still see Orks & Nids being a huge problem for them. They need to deal with hordes, and all their shiny new tools look like anti-MEQ/MC deals.

Interesting points. I recall when looking at all the rules/rumours for CSM that it seemed to be mostly slanted towards giving them a raft of AP3 options. It's not the defining feature of that codex, but certainly it stood out.

I don't get the same feeling (anti-MEQ) with these rumours, but I could well be wrong. I made a note about partly offsetting horde assault with voluntary fallback, was that off base?

I just find it funny that DA, BA, and BT will have inferior wargear. The saddest part is we would expect Black Templars to have an outdated wargear list but DA and BA are both 5th ed books...

The onething i hate about GW is their Dev team are a bunch of Manics. One moment everything is built around same principle and halfway through the line they are gonna scrap everything and build a new line thats "new edition compliant". Well thats all good but once they bring out source books after a new edition of rules release all of the "new Edition books " become outdated....

I mean heck with the way GW is going will we ever be able to play a 5th ed game with every army having a 5th ed (not a 5th ed compliant) codex or will 6th ed come out before the 5th ed line is even done?

Heritor wrote:..... but DA and BA are both 5th ed books...

Why do you consider these 5th Ed books?

HFN

I remember when the 2003 Chaos Codex came out it was so much better than the marine book that they even offered marine players and out by including pictures of loyalists who had drawn red Xs through their imperial symbols and changed sides.

I wonder if GW will now offer chaos a similar bone, include the 'Sons of Redemption' chapter who have white Xs through their chaos marks?

they were supposed to be written with 5th edition in mind

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Tribune wrote:Voodoo, isn't the synergy issue dealt with by splitting the 10-man squad? Combat squad with special, the other with heavy.

I don't see the Tac squads as a problem in this codex. It's the other toys that will tempt people into taking unbalanced armies, yet again. Already people are focussing on the availablity (or not) of their 'crutch' weapons, rather than the troops that carry them. Then again, I believe that's borne out of a mindset (which I don't share) that firepower ranks above mobility and good battlefield position.

The only thing I see as being really good is the one character that lets sternguard vets count as scoring. Then all of a sudden Drop Pods with them get very scary very quickly - depending on their points.

I still see Orks & Nids being a huge problem for them. They need to deal with hordes, and all their shiny new tools look like anti-MEQ/MC deals.

It's strange how players view news differently. As an example, to me most of the shiny new tools like like anti-horde.

Land Raider Reedemer: Two 'better' than heavy flamers that can shoot at different units. Tank shock, flame. Hell with the new Land Raider rules tank shock 12' so the claw needs 6's than flame anyways.
Land Raider Crusader: Getting cheaper, with new rules that allow it to move 6 and fire everything.
Thunderfire: Barrage with four templates. No cover saves for enemy models.
Free Flamers and Heavy Bolters: Both anti-horde, split down to combat squads, throw flamer in Rhino (Or hell drop pod it)
New Blast rules: Plasma Cannons are sick and the free ML barrage might actually be worth firing from time to time
Term Cyclone ML is now Heavy 2: Again, the optional two blasts.
Combat Tactics: Getting out of HTH, enough said.
Sternguard Vets Ammo ignores cover: No KFF, no intervening models.

Now, I'll admit I view this through a lens of a marine player that plays an Ork opponent frequently....but I can see several new tools that helps marine players deal with 180 Boyz running across the field....

Blackspade wrote:From BoLS:

Hi guys,

Games Day Chicago is over, and our Bothan spies tell us the following based on a review of Codex:Space Marines

In general, almost all of the latest round of rumors are correct. The codex is described as lavish, with a large color section, and clocking in at nearly 150 pages. Lets dive right into some of the details:

HQs
Master
Has well over 20 wargear options, and access to a once per game S:10 AP:1 Orbital Strike that is somewhat similar to the Witchhunter power.

Librarian
Leadership 10, and has an entire page of various powers. Big news is the Psychic Hood which now has a range of 24" instead of infinite.

Master of the Forge
Access to the Conversion Beamer, an old-school Rogue Trader era weapon with a 72" range that grows more powerful the greater the distance to its targets. At its top end, it is S:10 AP:1 Large Blast.

These are the ones that REALLY piss me off. My lovingly fully converted, painted, and collected Emperors Children army got tossed through the ringer and completely made unplayable because it was "too powerful" by the new chaos codex. My lovingly converted and painted KOS orks got foobar and my Nobs lost all their options as well because GW wanted to streamline lists. Now SM get pages of wargear and power options. Yeah right. BS. This is how GW fails.

Jayden63 wrote:These are the ones that REALLY piss me off. My lovingly fully converted, painted, and collected Emperors Children army got tossed through the ringer and completely made unplayable because it was "too powerful" by the new chaos codex. My lovingly converted and painted KOS orks got foobar and my Nobs lost all their options as well because GW wanted to streamline lists. Now SM get pages of wargear and power options. Yeah right. BS. This is how GW fails.

It's worse than you think. GW has traditionally been completely unable to balance new options. Old stuff after 1 or 2 or 3 tries they can usually get the rules working but new stuff is usually disasterously bad.

And here comes the most played army with a slew of new stuff...

Guaranteed some will be unplayable, some will need work but some... some will be SOLID GOLD. And GW won't address these problems for years and years.

Blackspade wrote:Land Speeder Storm
Scout transport land speeder nullifies enemy teleport homers and icons within 6". Enemy deepstrikers within 12" roll double scatter. Enemy units who are assualted from it are at -2 Leadership.

That's almost too unbelievable. I bet the Ld thing is BS--it seems terribly arbitrary. Otherwise, the thing sounds unbelievable. A 24" circle that's a "No Deepstrike" zone? Wow.

For me the kicker will be that I bet no other army will get as much new goodies as Space Marines. I wouldn't be surprised if IG got zero new codex entries in 5E.

bigchris1313 wrote:

Blackspade wrote:Land Speeder Storm
Scout transport land speeder nullifies enemy teleport homers and icons within 6". Enemy deepstrikers within 12" roll double scatter. Enemy units who are assualted from it are at -2 Leadership.

That's almost too unbelievable. I bet the Ld thing is BS--it seems terribly arbitrary. Otherwise, the thing sounds unbelievable. A 24" circle that's a "No Deepstrike" zone? Wow.

Well they can DS within 24, just roll double scatter =p.

If this is true, which surely it isn't, they just gave marine players who get the first turn a nasty farking trick against Demons.

3 Scout Speeders turbo across the field with overlapping DS disruption bubbles. Roll double scatter on those Demons please! Even if they try to bring down an icon...it will probably scatter so far its use as an icon will be questionable at best. Or deploy in the corner away from the bubbles (and me) .

Not surprised that the codex is chock full of new rule exceptions... New retinue rule lets you hide an IC from direct attack... until the new SM Company Champion comes along.

If you take a retinue, he's not a IC anymore, so the Champion won't be able to direct attacks at him.

It's all looking and sounding great, but it's almost all going to be competing for the same few Heavy and Elite choices, which don't score. And with some of the rumors stating the basic marines are going up in points, what kind of cost is all the cool new stuff going to come at?

AgeOfEgos wrote:

bigchris1313 wrote:

Blackspade wrote:Land Speeder Storm
Scout transport land speeder nullifies enemy teleport homers and icons within 6". Enemy deepstrikers within 12" roll double scatter. Enemy units who are assualted from it are at -2 Leadership.

That's almost too unbelievable. I bet the Ld thing is BS--it seems terribly arbitrary. Otherwise, the thing sounds unbelievable. A 24" circle that's a "No Deepstrike" zone? Wow.

Well they can DS within 24, just roll double scatter =p.

Allow me to rephrase then: 24" de facto "No Deepstrike" zone

hahahaha, wow, that is out of control!

Jayden63 wrote:These are the ones that REALLY piss me off. My lovingly fully converted, painted, and collected Emperors Children army got tossed through the ringer and completely made unplayable because it was "too powerful" by the new chaos codex. My lovingly converted and painted KOS orks got foobar and my Nobs lost all their options as well because GW wanted to streamline lists. Now SM get pages of wargear and power options. Yeah right. BS. This is how GW fails.

Quick check against your concerns, the quoted section says the Master gets 'a page full of options', as does the Librarian.

Well, that's not unlike the Chaos Lord entry in the latest CSM codex layout. Let's secure those knees before they jerk all ova' the place..

speculative point costs
here is to hoping for 17 points a marine
so 4 squads of ten at 680
hopefully 130 points for master
130 for libarian
100 points for the scouts and there ride
100 another scout ride
155 for the 5 man termi squad
255 land raider redeemer
200 5 man honor guard squad
I hope that people point out before they can use all the tasty bits.

skkipper wrote:155 for the 5 man termi squad

wat

Hrm... You know, it looks like they're taking a few pages out of Dawn of War (the game, not the book). Company Master calling down orbital bombardment?

While the points costs of these things will hopefully curb their overuse, I'm rather nervous that Marines will go straight to the top in power.

The way things are looking, IG are going to need to drop trooper costs down to 4pts and get cheaper heavy weapons just to hold their own. Now that Ordnance is less reliable (and given the prolific coversaves), IG are going to struggle even more. Str 10 AP1 Ord barrage coming from marines terrifies my tanks.

sorry fat fingered a number 175 for the termis 35 points a piece again this is purely speculative

Tribune seems to be the voice of reason in this thread. At first I was rather shocked by the information from Bell of Lost Souls, but then I picked up my 5th Edition-compatible codices such as the Dark Angel, Blood Angel, Ork, Eldar, and Chaos Space Marine books. If this information is accurate, and correct, then I don't think these armies have anything to worry about.

Agamemnon2 wrote:For me the kicker will be that I bet no other army will get as much new goodies as Space Marines. I wouldn't be surprised if IG got zero new codex entries in 5E.

Its seems pretty certain that the IG will have a new "Commisar Lord" as well as a new Leman Russ variant (yet to be named) and eventually valkyries. And those are only the ones that have been leaked.

bigchris1313 wrote:

Blackspade wrote:Land Speeder Storm
Scout transport land speeder nullifies enemy teleport homers and icons within 6". Enemy deepstrikers within 12" roll double scatter. Enemy units who are assualted from it are at -2 Leadership.

That's almost too unbelievable. I bet the Ld thing is BS--it seems terribly arbitrary. Otherwise, the thing sounds unbelievable. A 24" circle that's a "No Deepstrike" zone? Wow.

I think we could say Space Marines bungee jumping at your squad out of a fast moving speeder is kinda scary.

Geddonight wrote:Hrm... You know, it looks like they're taking a few pages out of Dawn of War (the game, not the book). Company Master calling down orbital bombardment?

While the points costs of these things will hopefully curb their overuse, I'm rather nervous that Marines will go straight to the top in power.

The way things are looking, IG are going to need to drop trooper costs down to 4pts and get cheaper heavy weapons just to hold their own. Now that Ordnance is less reliable (and given the prolific coversaves), IG are going to struggle even more. Str 10 AP1 Ord barrage coming from marines terrifies my tanks.

IG don't need Droptroopers, IG will win by shear numbers and volume of tanks like in their fluff. My IG army doesn't worry too much about the orbital bombardment because I know that most SM players will gravitate to the bigger toys that the special characters are bringing. Also rumors are Leman Russ' are cheaper and in squadrons.

I just can't see the scout speeder being all that useful. Sure, you get a handy screen from deepstriking, if the other guy has anything that he wants to deepstrike. And if he does, all he has to do is blow up a landspeeder, something that's never really been all that hard. Gaining a moral boost borders on irrelevant... it's being given to a handful of scouts who will be doing very well to beat anything half decent, and will most times be wanting to remain in assault the turn they charged (to stay safe from return enemy fire).

I can't see it being used all that often, depending on the points costs, of course. And everything does depend on points costs, not to mention selection restrictions, synergy and just plain old seeing stuff in action on the tabletop. In short, I don't really see any merit in talking about balance at this point in time.

OTOH hand, I think there's probably a pretty worthwhile discussion to be had about GW changing their design strategy again. It's pretty well documented that GW have moved away from the pile of rules and wargear minutiae, away from the sublists, but now it appears they're moving again, towards including more units and characters with their own place on the battlefield. It certainly makes sense from GW's POV, in terms of selling minis. I like the idea of new toys with each release and hope they'll manage the same with my armies. But the question remains whether GW will be able to release codices with more units while making most of those units worthwhile. History suggests otherwise.

aka_mythos wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:For me the kicker will be that I bet no other army will get as much new goodies as Space Marines. I wouldn't be surprised if IG got zero new codex entries in 5E.

Its seems pretty certain that the IG will have a new "Commisar Lord" as well as a new Leman Russ variant (yet to be named) and eventually valkyries. And those are only the ones that have been leaked.

I'm not too excited about yet another character to lead IG. Even Yarrick is pretty useless when you get down to it. IG characters have such bad statlines that as a rule, anytime an opponent really wants to kill one, they'll succeed at it. I'd rather we got some field artillery, since they're so keen to give some to Marines to whose mode of operation it's about as well suited as a bazooka to a zulu.

Valkyries... meh. I don't believe that particular rumor for a second.

aka_mythos wrote:

Geddonight wrote:The way things are looking, IG are going to need to drop trooper costs down to 4pts and get cheaper heavy weapons just to hold their own. Now that Ordnance is less reliable (and given the prolific coversaves), IG are going to struggle even more. Str 10 AP1 Ord barrage coming from marines terrifies my tanks.

IG don't need Droptroopers, IG will win by shear numbers and volume of tanks like in their fluff.

If IG are going to win by sheer numbers and volumes, then basic Guardsmen, Chimeras, and other stuff is going to have to get noticeably cheaper.

Amen to that. Also, I wouldn't mind more/better special weapons choices for squads. Grenade launchers out, heavy stubbers in. Also, full weapon options for Chimeras. If the Razorback weapon rumors are true, I see no reason why I can't get an autocannon on my IFV.

Also, a new bloody Leman Russ, the kit is ca. 15+ years old by now and we've pretty much exhausted its potential. Even FW is pretty much polishing a turd at this point.

Since I play ALL of the armies, I am withholding judgement until I see the points costs on the new 'uber-marines'. Last time I checked, you were still held to a 'points limit' when building your army. In the mean time, I'm looking forward to seeing the new codex. Hopefully it will nix the las/plas junkies (at least for a bit! LOL!!).

It wasn't that funny...

Did anyone get a look at the actual Codex at GD Chicago?

Alpharius wrote:It wasn't that funny...

Did anyone get a look at the actual Codex at GD Chicago?

I have to 2nd this question, I called up my friend who did goto GD Chicago and he did not see the new SM codex anywhere. He said he went to every area...

Aduro wrote:If you take a retinue, he's not a IC anymore, so the Champion won't be able to direct attacks at him.

I savvy that, but I'm saying that based on the description of the Champion under Honor Guard, it sounds like he may have special rules that provide an exception to that. Seems to be GW's modus operandi to create standard rules and then provide armies with special rule exclusions (such as the rumored Power of the Machine Spirit)

Khornatedemon wrote:(DA/BA)... were supposed to be written with 5th edition in mind

and what gives you that idea? I havent heard anything from anyone other than it is a personal assumption that this is so.

Honestly, I think that opinion is full of bollocks. Pull the wool over your own eyes. The only codecies that were worded so that they could even be remotely considered made with 5th ed in mind was orks and daemons. If DA/BA were made with 5th ed in mind, then the rules weren't nearly complete enough at that time to know how 5th ed would finally looked finished.

Hell, the many versions of the leaked 5th ed rulebook shows just how much can change in a matter of a few weeks. DA/BA were made how long ago? (waits) Exactly.

Thus, the logic that DA and BA were made with 5th ed in mind utterly fails.

Hellfury wrote:
Thus, the logic that DA and BA were made with 5th ed in mind utterly fails.

You might want to go back and research about what jj had to say when making and when the DA codex was released. It was made for 5th edition and he hoped that it would lay the ground work for all the rest of the army codexes would be written.

We all know how badly he failed at the DA codex and how little other people paid any attention to his idea of a new codex.

He talks alot about this in his white dwarf articals.

Try again, thanks for playing.

davidson wrote:

Hellfury wrote:
Thus, the logic that DA and BA were made with 5th ed in mind utterly fails.

You might want to go back and research about what jj had to say when making and when the DA codex was released. It was made for 5th edition and he hoped that it would lay the ground work for all the rest of the army codexes would be written.

We all know how badly he failed at the DA codex and how little other people paid any attention to his idea of a new codex.

He talks alot about this in his white dwarf articals.

Try again, thanks for playing.

Actually, GW vehemently denied the existence of 5th ed up until 3-4 months ago. How can it be that he states that DA were made for 5th ed in mind when the DA came out a year and a half ago? Care to give a source for that? Or is this more personal opinions passed off as facts??

As for referring to white dwarf articles...yeah....I think I will reserve my intelligence for something worth my time. They can say whatever they want to in those rags, but that doesn't make it logical. What little I have read in WD doesn't discredit my stance that DA/BA were NOT made with 5th ed in mind. As I have said, the frequent changes to the leaked 5th ed rulebook in a matter of weeks or less is proof enough of that.

Try again, thanks for playing.

Well, I'm sure those books were written with 5th edition in mind, I'm just also sure that they didn't lock 5th edition down until long after they were printed.

Orks and Daeomons had a pretty solid idea of the rules, Space Marines have everything, but DA were dropped over a year ago, which means that they were probably still using a playtest set of rules for those codices.

So, while they had an idea of what they were doing when they wrote DA, it wasn't written FOR 5th edition, just with the idea that 5th edition was coming, which is a big difference.

Polonius wrote: So, while they had an idea of what they were doing when they wrote DA, it wasn't written FOR 5th edition, just with the idea that 5th edition was coming, which is a big difference.

Thank you, and far more succinctly stated than I did.

Hellfury wrote:

Polonius wrote: So, while they had an idea of what they were doing when they wrote DA, it wasn't written FOR 5th edition, just with the idea that 5th edition was coming, which is a big difference.

Thank you, and far more succinctly stated than I did.

NP, I have a bit of a sixth sense for when people are talking past each other, not too each other. Another one of the fun skills I've picked up in law school.

-2 LD regarding the Land Speeder? I don't get it? Why would it reduce LD as opposed to, say, a Terminator squad jumping out of a Land Raider into assault. How does a Land Speeder factor to warrant a drop in LD for assault? Fluff or rules, I'm just not getting it.

Because they need something to make people take scouts. What really worries me is the fact that anyone can ride in anything now-a-days. I pray that in the speeder description it says SCOUTS ONLY in big bold impossible to miss lettering.

I do not need to see assault termies jumping out of landspeeders.

Don't talk crazy, the assault termies will be landing in the special SM drop pods that don't scatter onto dangerous terrain, never suffer a mishap and can appear in the first turn.

Anything else would be unbalanced

So will this new codex have an armory to complete the 360 in design philosophy?.

Noisy_Marine wrote:So will this new codex have an armory to complete the 360 in design philosophy?.

Ok, this is off topic...but that avatar needs an explanation !

I have to throw my opinion in with the DA/BA = guinea pig crowd. Which I find to be mildly irritating as a BA player, however I guess it COULD be a positive sign that GW dev is taking more interest in what the great unwashed have to think as opposed to not. The 5 year old in me just wishes it didn't have to be with my codex. But, I guess they've sold enough BA related stuff while the BA were in their rules "hayday" to merit moving someone else up to the top of the power band. Whatever.

OT, I'd have to say wait for the points costs. A lot of that crap sounds neat for marine players, however the neat factor can be some what tempered by the points factor.

As far as the land speeder being -2 LD, we'll see. I guess you'd be kinda upset and your battle plans kinda messed with if you were NVA and a couple of Hueys full of Marines landed BEHIND your battle line (on the fluff hand). On the gameplay hand, this sounds like it could be over the top, depending on what all else goes with this rule. 5 man scout squads only? Scouts only, no battlefield taxis? Can only be purchased with a Scout squad? Whole picture, folks. I mean, sure marine scouts are some real bad news bears with their uber WS3/BS3, but a 5 man squad, with whatever the cost for this speeder is, is going to be a pretty decent percentage of 1850 points, for what you are getting.

Unless you can take multiple flamers with your scouts in your Land Speeder Storm. Count it as an open top vehicle, throw 5 flamers in the back, and you now have a drive by to be feared. Now THAT would require some ridiculously high points cost to be considered "overpriced". And from a fluff perspective, I don't know why the hell you wouldn't do exactly that. I mean really, as a battlefield commander; why not? You have a land speeder basically with a pick up truck bed and some seat belts in the back (kinda like the old subaru brats, wasn't it?), "scouts" are really just FNG's straight outta boot. A freakin flamer CANNOT be that expensive or uncommon, people rig them up with super soakers all the time. A military grade one could not be too chingy. Unless you have an unusual dearth of one of the above ingredients, it's a very do-able concept for this game. BS becomes moot; basically if you can point your finger at the enemy you can light him on fire.

Not that I am advocating that the Space Marines need that kinda crap. But it would be funny to see a few of them cruising the tabletop lighting someone elses troops on fire.

*edited b/c my spelling is bullocks.

Hrm.

Makes me interested in making a new marines army, but in terms of putting together a hard list, I'm not really seeing it as being especially powerful. Top tier, sure, but not excessive compared to the strong lists now.

Now, maybe it unbalances things at Apocalypse point levels, but at 2k and below, I don't think it's going to be too horrible.

Scoring veterans? Considering vanguard are 25 points apiece, and most scary when you add a 5 point combi-weapon, for a squad of ten in a drop pod, you're looking at close to 400 points with special weapons and someone with a fist. And that's before you pay 300ish for Lysander to make them scoring. And then to get them really scary, you want Vulkan to reroll those flamer wounds, for another 300ish points...

The "free" weapons on Tac squads aren't free, just built into the cost of the squad. At 170 for a 10 man flamer/HB or flamer/ML squad from the rulebook and the repeated rumor that tac squads can be 5-10 marines, I'm betting it's going to be 95 for the first five +15 per each extra marine -- which for a flamer/HB or flamer/ML is an increase in price. So with no special/heavy until you take ten marines, your only real option is a ten man tactical squad. Put it in a Rhino, you get 205 points minimum.

So, let's try to put together a list.

Let's start with Vulkan, per rumors -- tough character (although he walks), 300ish points, makes flamers/meltas TL.

Give him an assault terminator squad because of the new storm shields, 200 more points. Put them in a Redeemers to make them useful, let's estimate 250 points, keeping them in line with current LRs.

Now, Vanguard vets. 10 man squad, 2 specials, let's say heavy flamers, I'm going to guess 15 points each (and I'm probably underestimating; weapon upgrades on veterans are usually expensive), 5 point combi-flamers (to take advantage of synergy with Vulkan) on the rest, that's 320 points. Put them in a pod (as I do love the pods, and, well, 10 flamer templates falling from the sky is sexy), and you're up to 370 points.

Now, so far, we're at 1120 points for the "basics" of the new codex toys. You can't even fit in two 10 man Rhino squads and be under 1500.

I was thinking it was amazing until I tried to build a solid list at the 1500 point range. After doing so... Well, it has a lot of options, and a reason to take something other than a plasma gun (which is something I've really been looking forward to). But until you're looking at a minimum of 3k points, you're just not going to be able to fit enough of those toys in a list and still achieve any semblance or balance (or, even, a reasonable quorum of scoring units).

So, I'm excited about the list. I'm planning on putting an army together, because it sounds like the most fun marine list to play to date. But I don't think it sounds ungodly powerful. I don't think it's going to be any stronger than the best 4th edition loyalist lists (let alone 3/4th ed Chaos before the current codex).

Of course, I could be wrong

Noisy_Marine wrote:So will this new codex have an armory to complete the 360 in design philosophy?.

180 you spaghetti-slurping cretin - 180! If they did a 360 I'd be facing the exact same way I started!!



BYE

*cookie for the reference

Seriously HBMC, Last Action Hero references? Sheesh.

Of course now I feel so unclean for having recognized it.

haha, oh man. So people are honestly complaining about an Armor 10 Speeder? Well then. That's it. 40k is too much for me. D:

On the other end of the spectrum I don't really care about how many nifty options i get. I want to have a 7 man tactical squad and a special weapon. I'm ok with losing a Heavy weapon. thats my choice. But to be forced to bring a 10 man squad? Stupid.

If the rumours do turn out to be true, marines are going to be HELLUH expensive.

Tac the "free" tactical squad upgrade for instance.

170 points buys you 10 marines with a special (flamer) and a heavy (ML or HB).

But what happens if you want to take, say for instance, a meltagun and a plasma cannon?

You can bet your sweet patootie that the cost of those other weapons hasn't gone down, if anything the price has exponentially increased. So now you would be paying a base cost of 17 points per marine and then add the increased cost of the increased cost heavy weapons. It actually would be within the realm of reason to pay close to 350 points a a tactical squad that is kitted the way you want it after including a rhino.

I am not saying that it would be a bad thing, as heavy weapons need to be balanced but as HBMC said, GW has a nasty way of overbalancing so that it is again unbalanced, just on the other side of the pendulum.

That is ofcourse, if the rumours are actually true.

*face palms*

Yeah, that's what I meant. Damn you Xbox!

I seriously hope the existing chapter marine dexes get a FAQ after this is released.

They probably will.

They also probably will NOT get the "upgrades" and "what-nots" too though...

What are "upgrades" and "whatnots"?

H.B.M.C. wrote:180 you spaghetti-slurping cretin - 180! If they did a 360 I'd be facing the exact same way I started!!



BYE

*cookie for the reference

Except the argument is that GW have already gone 180 in their design philosophy, and are now doing a second 180 by adding in all the new stuff. So they'd be back to 360.

I disagree that a 180/360, because the restrictions are still in place. There isn't going to be an armoury. Units are still restricted by squad size, the doctrines and sub-list rules won't be there. The six man las/plas team is gone, which further encourages troops to act like troops and not devestators lite. The focus on using structures and unit limits to get armies playing a certain way seems to be consistant with the DA/BA books. There's a pile of new toys being added, but the underlying core appears the same.

Hellfury wrote:
As for referring to white dwarf articles...yeah....I think I will reserve my intelligence for something worth my time. They can say whatever they want to in those rags, but that doesn't make it logical. What little I have read in WD doesn't discredit my stance that DA/BA were NOT made with 5th ed in mind. As I have said, the frequent changes to the leaked 5th ed rulebook in a matter of weeks or less is proof enough of that.

Try again, thanks for playing.

I would quote the white dwarfs but they where not worth saving and or buying. But we both know how that goes.

sebster wrote:I disagree that a 180/360, because the restrictions are still in place.

Ditto. It's easily a 720. A 1080 perhaps even.

BYE

davidson wrote:I would quote the white dwarfs but they where not worth saving and or buying.

The bolded part of this statement is rendered redundant by the unbolded part.

BYE

I think that a big number of us complaining is not that we are loosing our Las/plas tac marines. Its coming from us who don't play marines at all and now have to fight this new improved beast. Marines had enough toys in the old book to give us fits (if the guy playing them were even half way competent), but now there are all these new uber toys that seemingly ignore all the limitations that a new rule set has also befallen us.

Worse, this raise in power is a kick in the teeth for those of use who have just had our armies nerfed by the last three codex. Do I really have to wait another 8 years for a new ork codex to come out so that it will stand up against this new marine codex when combined with the new rule set. Don't give me that 180 ork BS either. Some of us love orks but can't stand running or playing horde style lists.

Everything presented so far is just rubbing salt in the wounds of all us Chaos, BA, DA players for what they did to our armies.

Jayden63 wrote:Some of us love orks but can't stand running or playing horde style lists.

Perhaps you are playing the wrong army?

My KOS army did awesome with burnas, nobs with powerclaws, and orks that hit on I4 on the charge. It didn't have a lot of numbers, but it did perform well.

Why can't I have that still. 5th ed new orks KOS is still very much in the air to its effectiveness. The new rules just slam our small unit count too much.

But this is an discussion for another thread.

isn't there going to be sections of the SM codex for secondary codex's because i wonder if they get any thing 'special' besides a IC character...

cheers,
Gutteridge

For More General Codex Info & Special Characters go to.
link: http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2008/07/rumors-codex-space-marines-ics-and-more.html

I simply can't see how those chaos space marines, Imperial Storm Troopers or that big ork warboss would cower before five boys with their first big pistol and pig sticker who jump from a speeder.

Lowinor wrote:Scoring veterans? Considering vanguard are 25 points apiece, and most scary when you add a 5 point combi-weapon, for a squad of ten in a drop pod, you're looking at close to 400 points with special weapons and someone with a fist. And that's before you pay 300ish for Lysander to make them scoring. And then to get them really scary, you want Vulkan to reroll those flamer wounds, for another 300ish points...

I don't see why anyone's thinking we'll get to stack special characters' abilities like that. There's no reason for them to allow it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:180 you spaghetti-slurping cretin - 180! If they did a 360 I'd be facing the exact same way I started!!

Stunning news, HBMC admits to sharing GW's point of view. Has he in fact been in deep (and I do mean deep) undercover all this time, and is actually a GW stooge?

Agamemnon2 wrote:
I don't see why anyone's thinking we'll get to stack special characters' abilities like that. There's no reason for them to allow it.

Yes there is.

Because Teh Spase Marinez!

That's why.

I'm still not seeing the super stupid broken here.

When you try to play a "Codex" style list with the 10 Man Squads, Rhinos, etc, you pay out the nose for it. As others have pointed out, add up the proverbial points for these things and see how much they cost.

Oh and just as a question, where did this rumor of the Cyclone Missile Launcher becoming Heavy 2 come from? I have two units of Termies with this on them, just because I like the model, tell me that all of a sudden they don't suck!

Jayden63 wrote:

This is just too messed up. GW has failed us all in a major way.

How on earth can it be too messed up if we haven't heard a single points cost?????????

Honestly, even at current points I am not thinking this is too horrible.
Storm shields 3+: Who is really scared of assault terminators? They are expensive, have to have a ride to get to you in a reasonable amount of time (granted, Landraiders are strong now) and attack last with a thunder hammer. Is that really so bad? Storm shields on other models cost what, 15-25 points? The only thing I see is characters starting to field them in combination with a thunder hammer, but otherwise I suspect it will still be power weapon/pistol as current.

Free weapons on 10 man squads: those weapons are already dirt cheap or never taken. Heavy Bolters are 5 poins, 1/3 the price of a marine. Same with flamers. Multi-meltas... who wants those? Missile launchers are ok, but suffer from not being a lascannon. Vehicles being as tough as they are now, as well as slightly more common cover, it isn't super duper.
Add in the fact you need 8 bolters to go with those free weapons, and can get NOTHING if you don't take all 10, it isn't too bad. You are still going to see a net drop in heavy and special weapons in marine armies.

I will however sympathize with folks who say they want free heavies/specials too. Hell, Sisters' minimum squad size is 10, and I get crappy weapons choices!

I would also like to reiterate my previous statement that most of the new toys are Elites. Generally elites are pretty pricey, but even beyond that, they don't score, and you get 3. Assuming retinues are out (which seems to be the theme lately) you get Termies, Dreads, Veterans and a techmarine, but only 3 of those 4 even if you max out.

If anything, the changes seem to represent a net loss of heavy and special weapons which are made slighty more efficient by way of combat squads, assault terminators that might actually live to assault without an expensive tank, and some expensive characters to give your army tricks.
All in all, it sounds pretty nifty, though probably not enough to make me want to paint more marines.

I don't think that this is a matter of the new rumoured Marine Dex being overpowered, but that they added lots of customization to it - where as the codecies that immediately preceeded it have little to no customization.

Well the possibility of being overpowered is around too. If any of the special characters are just-too-good with a certain build, it'll be just like Eldrad flying around fighting battles all over the galaxy.

I can imagine an Alpha Legion v.2 using Shrike and pals or a DP army with that guy that makes meltas and flamers awesome.

As long as the points costs are okay it shouldn't be too bad.
Assault terminators should rip through hordes of ork boys, it just makes sense!

Jayden63 wrote:Why do we even bother playing other races?

This is just too messed up. GW has failed us all in a major way.

Exactly how I felt reading these (and the other) rumors. It would be different if this were the codex to start a brave new world of huge codexes with involved options for each entry and so many wonder weapons ... but it's not. C:SM comes in the midst of the unforunate-but-grudgingly-accepted stripped down codex structure they foisted upon us over the last year plus, and beats it to a pulp. The armory page is still missing but all the entries themselves are so loaded with shiny killy options that the point is moot. Makes me wonder what the hell the future holds for Dark Eldar, Wolves, Necrons - I suspect C'Tan with 2 pages of options

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I wonder if GW will now offer chaos a similar bone, include the 'Sons of Redemption' chapter who have white Xs through their chaos marks?

QFT

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Believe it or not, I don't think any of this is going to be nearly as overpowered as everyone thinks they will be.

Marines will need to be in squads of 10 to be useful. That's a fairly hefty amount of points. And it's not like the synergy between the Flamer and those heavy weapons is all that great. IMO I'd probably want my tacticals on the move with Heavy weapons fire being relegated to Devs or Vehicles.

You and your rational thinking!

- Salvage

I'm just looking out for the little guy. Namely my armies that arn't marines.

landraiders with two S6 AP3 flamers. techmarines with S10 Ap1 large blasts templates, Orbital Barrages with S10 AP 1 large blast templates.

And poor necrons with a 12 model phase out. Yeash.

I'm sure GW has tested each of these new toys as individuals and has seen no problem with them. Unfortunatly they don't have an unfun git on their staff who will combine all these toys together and say umm... dudes this is just wrong. Why take more than two scoring units when you can table the other guy by turn 5? That leaves you a lots of points to spend on the toys that can do just that.

C: SM comes in the midst of the unforunate-but-grudgingly-accepted stripped down codex structure they foisted upon us over the last year plus, and beats it to a pulp.

You think the SM dex is starting a new trend? Take a look at the ork dex, THAT is the new template for 5ed codexes. Extremely good Troop choices. Knock your socks off elite choices. HQs that adjust the FOC or add some strong abilities to the list. And I am sure many choices that are simply over costed compared to the other choices. Ork dex is FAR from stripped down overall. The SM dex seems to be following that same trend IMHO.

Hmmmmmm ... so C:SM is in fact the next book in the game of Kellyhammer, as opposed to Jervishammer that some of us are stuck playing . The master with the page of options was a dead give away that this is Phil Kelly in action, not sure why I missed it until now.

Side note: Did Kelly take a break from his xenos lovefest to write this one?

- Salvage

Yeah lol, I do think Kelly may have had a hand in this one. Sure seems like his work based on the rumors, which it really is too bad that he doesn't write all the codexes. Wouldn't that create more of a balance if ONE guy writes them, as opposed to different dev that have obviously different philosophies on army design? And preferably the guy that seems to get how to keep armies fluffy and fun to play at the same time.

Ohhh OK then, since you insist, hand me the design notes and I'll sort them all out.

Right, let's start with bolters, clearly they're overpowered: 18" S3 AP6 Rapid Fire for you...

I thought we heard that Jervis was writing this one?

That's what had me nervous initially.

Not anymore though!

stonefox wrote:Well the possibility of being overpowered is around too. If any of the special characters are just-too-good with a certain build, it'll be just like Eldrad flying around fighting battles all over the galaxy.

I can imagine an Alpha Legion v.2 using Shrike and pals or a DP army with that guy that makes meltas and flamers awesome.

I can imagine that too!

Yes, yes I can!

(Thanks for that!)

It really is silly that generic marines will have more wargear options than BA and DA armies along with better/mor unit options to pick from?

So, how much of the 4 pages so far is people more concerned about what their army isn't getting by comparison?

Wehrkind wrote:Honestly, even at current points I am not thinking this is too horrible.
Storm shields 3+: Who is really scared of assault terminators?

Free weapons on 10 man squads: those weapons are already dirt cheap or never taken.

I will however sympathize with folks who say they want free heavies/specials too. Hell, Sisters' minimum squad size is 10, and I get crappy weapons choices!

I would also like to reiterate my previous statement that most of the new toys are Elites.

TH&SS Termies also won't get a bonus attack for 2 CCWs - the TH counts as a PF, and you need 2 PF to get the +1A for 2 CCWs. So TH&SS Termies are a super-defensive unit, the opposite of twin LC Termies. So I like this change on Termies.

Black Templars Assault Marines use a separate Codex that doesn't reference C: SM. So the BT-specific SS is only Sv4++.

The "Free" weapons are only worth around 10 points total - you hardly saw them on the cheaper 6-man squads, so you probably won't see them on even more expensive 10-man squads unless points are really tight.

Sisters and IG could also use "free" weapons, tho Sisters are very fairly priced right now, whereas IG and Storms are overpriced. I can see GW doing this in the next IG and Inquisition Codices.

And I concur with the notion that this isn't such a big deal as it's mostly expensive, Non-Scoring HQ and Elites that we're talking about.

I think one of the biggest problems is that, apparently, no one at GW is a cheesy jerk. They ought to hire some.

Codex CSM was a big mistake, or atleast an excuse of a codex, where they took all the Chaos out of a Chaos Space Marine codex. - lets kep it out of this though, what sense would it make to do another crap codex just to be "fair" to all the CSM players out there??

Eldar - brilliant Dex
Orks - brilliant Dex
Apocalypse - fantastic hobby behemoth
5th ed - solved 4 in a very satisfactory manner

I'm quite digging GW's current direction and confident the new book will be just as great as Orks and Eldar. ...and even the non marine players should applaud the end of LasPlas SAFH and the birth of several viable marine setups and gorgeous new minis.

The one upshot of the latest C:CSM? In light of the latest codexes, including this SM one, Codex: Chaos Legions is going to be absolutely insane. Swing back pendulum, swing back!

- Salvage

I think having to take 10 men tacticals inorder to have effective Troop choices is probably why we see all these crazy toys. Yeah you have some nice options but balancing your needs for 5ed with the restrictions placed on tacticals will be a tad difficult. Just ask DA and BA players, who have even less restrictive options for troops.

Speaking off, I always thought it lame in 3ed and early 4ed that the sub dexes had all the stuff that generic marines have plus their own goodies with no tangible negatives. It seems people still expect this trend, which is pure BS imho.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Oh and just as a question, where did this rumor of the Cyclone Missile Launcher becoming Heavy 2 come from? I have two units of Termies with this on them, just because I like the model, tell me that all of a sudden they don't suck!

I saw this rumour posted by two seperate people at B&C a couple weeks ago who so far seem to be reliable sources of rumours.

Take that for what it is worth.

Thanks HF!

That's the one really positive thing I've read about the new SM Dex that actually caught my interest.

To be honest though, most of my local group translates "40k v5" to mean more WHFB & Warmachine. I'm just happy that when I do get talked into playing some friendly games with friends my Termy units are actually pretty useful!

Making cyclones heavy two sounds like a great idea to me. I've practically never seen anyone use them, maybe with the extra shot that will change.

You know, unless DA and BA get a 2.0 update to give them some of the new toys, I may actually switch to the new SM Codex.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

IMO, the Cyclone looks more twin-linked than Heavy 2...

I bet the clowns selling assault cannons for $15 in 4th edition all worked for GW.

winterman wrote:Yeah lol, I do think Kelly may have had a hand in this one. Sure seems like his work based on the rumors, which it really is too bad that he doesn't write all the codexes. Wouldn't that create more of a balance if ONE guy writes them, as opposed to different dev that have obviously different philosophies on army design? And preferably the guy that seems to get how to keep armies fluffy and fun to play at the same time.

There’s an idea floating around that the guy who’s name is on the codex sits down and writes the codex, seemingly without any oversight or review. It’s a very odd idea. I’d be very surprised if the rules weren’t created collaboratively, with everyone throwing in ideas and playtesting a range of variant rules.

The guy with his name on the codex is likely responsible for putting the final rules into writing, getting all the fluff text together, and getting the whole thing into a publishable document.

I'd be very surprised if they playtested.

Ozymandias wrote:You know, unless DA and BA get a 2.0 update to give them some of the new toys, I may actually switch to the new SM Codex.

Ah c'mon Ozy. Keep the faith brother. It's the only thing keeping us Chaos players going. Why should your Dark Angel players be any different?

We'll all get a good Codex... one day...





BYE

My Dark Angels, whom I have played since RT (back when they were black ), will have a grand view of my gaming table......from the shelf.

The *Insert family relation/medieval rank/weapon type* Of *insert geographical location/emotion/other word for conflict*

Will rule all. Enter the new vanilla marines.

I hear that the Cyclone Missile Launcher will now give the model one sustained fire die!

Really!

Lol, they were my favourite dice too.

Ozymandias wrote:You know, unless DA and BA get a 2.0 update to give them some of the new toys, I may actually switch to the new SM Codex.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I'm with you here...that red marine head in my sig will simply mean I play generic red marines.

I was talking to my buddy about the nature of the new SM compared to the old CSM one, and he had the unmitigated gall to say that people were only complaining about the nerf, which lead me to explain in graphic detail the ways the codexs are different, in terms of simply eliminating entire build concepts.

Anyway, I think there are two ways to look at this:
1) GW hates Chaos, and wanted to vanillafy that army.
2) Counts as!

Seriously, how many bike heavy MEQ lists, in todays all-killer/no-filler philosophy, does the environment need? I'd like a bunch, but that's clearly not an option, so getting one (two for now, but the new marines might squash it) allows anybody that wants a lot of bikes to build at least a workable list.

Yes, many of us know the difference between how Ravenwing, White Scars, and Nightlords should look, fight and play on the tabletop; but my days of cursing GW because they couldn't take the time to write and balance a list that has Bikes and Deathwing with a list that has Bikes and Daemon is coming to an end.

DA/BA players, well.... Ouside of RW/DW and all jump armies, I agree there's increasingly little reason to play them.

Finally, and while I have a Space marine army, I'm mostly an IG player. As an IG player, I have exactly one codex to use. Any MEQ player, in today's brave new "no chapters, no legions" environment can use six different codexes for the same base of Powered armored guys with bolters. Sure, every codex has it's unique units, but with 1500pts of basic MEQs and vehicles and a few 1000pt sideboards an army can be built that can easily use 6 different codex books. This isn't MEQ hate, it's just pointing out that thinking in terms of a single MEQ codex is self limiting. It's a brave new world.

super boost marines to make sales to keep GW studio monkeys in their jobs.

I hope someone is playing a joke on us with these rumours. Some are admittedly improvements, but even a drooling cretin could learn how to improve an existant GW codex if he hangs out at a forum or convention for more than a few minutres. It beggars belief how badly these guys can screw up after so long.

The worst:

Free heavy weapons. This doesn't even feel right, what a hamfisted way to encourage flamers and missile launchers. Up to a point they already had it partly right by upping the lascannon price.
they shoukld have kept things as they are, put a premium on plasma and lascannon and allowed combat squads if you take 10, which is an incentive in itself.

-2ld test scout assaults. Just...slowed....

I have a vanilla SM army and profit heavily from these changes, and yet I am not happy at all with them.

TH&SS Termies also won't get a bonus attack for 2 CCWs - the TH counts as a PF, and you need 2 PF to get the +1A for 2 CCWs. So TH&SS Termies are a super-defensive unit, the opposite of twin LC Termies. So I like this change on Termies.

You never got the bonus attack with TH&SS for 2 CCW's anyways. Other than getting a storm shield buff, nothing has changed with them.

Capt K

Orlanth wrote:
Free heavy weapons. This doesn't even feel right, what a hamfisted way to encourage flamers and missile launchers. Up to a point they already had it partly right by upping the lascannon price.
they shoukld have kept things as they are, put a premium on plasma and lascannon and allowed combat squads if you take 10, which is an incentive in itself.

10 man Squads receive Flamers/ML for free
Plasma Guns are 10 pts, Meltas are 5, Lascannons 10 and Plasma Cannons 5

I don't think the flamer/ML are an automatic.

Orlanth wrote:The worst:

Free heavy weapons. This doesn't even feel right, what a hamfisted way to encourage flamers and missile launchers. Up to a point they already had it partly right by upping the lascannon price.

Ye gods can we dispense with this? With what we know as of the moment, the weapons aren't "free", but instead "built into the price of the unit", and an increase in cost compared to now anyway.

Agreed, it's built into the cost. Kind of like the Death Company marines that BA players get for "free". Compare the cost of a tac squad between the codexes...that DC marine isn't free.

Do you guys think they will drop the points cost of terminators at all, mabye 5 less each? I would love to shove 4 thunderhammer and one lightning claw termies into a crusader with a chaplain, but the points would be over a third of my total army, even in larger 1500 point games. 1750 I think this unit would get wiped out too easily to justify the points cost.

Ozymandias wrote:You know, unless DA and BA get a 2.0 update to give them some of the new toys, I may actually switch to the new SM Codex.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Same for Chaos. I mean why should I use C:CSM anymore? If I'm going to be forced to do a "counts as" army (which is basically what the Chaos codex forces 89% of the Chaos legions to do) why wouldn't I have them "counts as" the army from the codex with more options?

Orlanth wrote:-2ld test scout assaults. Just...slowed....

I think the -2 Ld perfectly reflects the famous terror tactics employed by the Night Lords' as they swoop into combat out of their flying batmobiles.

And obviously the WS and BS 3 represents the fact that these are geriatric veterans, known for their infiltrating prowess, but their poorly maintained and ancient armour now only gives them a 4+ save.
Makes perfect sense!

Lowinor wrote:
Ye gods can we dispense with this? With what we know as of the moment, the weapons aren't "free", but instead "built into the price of the unit", and an increase in cost compared to now anyway.

Still a hamfisted way to write the codex.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

10 man Squads receive Flamers/ML for free
Plasma Guns are 10 pts, Meltas are 5, Lascannons 10 and Plasma Cannons 5

I don't think the flamer/ML are an automatic.

If those figure are correct they should simply have kept the DA weapons prices and be done with it.

Da Boss wrote:And obviously the WS and BS 3 represents the fact that these are geriatric veterans, known for their infiltrating prowess, but their poorly maintained and ancient armour now only gives them a 4+ save.
Makes perfect sense!

Nah, their WS/BS3 represents the impediment to their movement and aim posed by the humongous scary bat wings they wear on their heads.

Scouts are just cultists now, everyone needs some good fodder.

What a nutty thread. Space Marines have been nerfed to hell but are the new supreme power in the galaxy. ORks are unbeatable, but their new codex is already obsolete. Terminators are too ridiculously good, but too expensive to actually think about taking. Squads of 10 are two points more each, but have 20 points of "free" weapons.

Just for a minute, imagine that the guys who came up with 5th ed might have an idea what they're doing better than you.

Whoa, no way that just blew my mind! I didn't think game designers were ever capable of planning ahead, everything has changed.

biztheclown wrote:What a nutty thread. Space Marines have been nerfed to hell but are the new supreme power in the galaxy. ORks are unbeatable, but their new codex is already obsolete. Terminators are too ridiculously good, but too expensive to actually think about taking. Squads of 10 are two points more each, but have 20 points of "free" weapons.

Just for a minute, imagine that the guys who came up with 5th ed might have an idea what they're doing better than you.

But if that happened, what would the negative nancy's have to discuss? No matter what, the fan boyz will see the glass half full and the nay sayers will see it half empty. there is nothing we can do about that.

two_heads_talking wrote:

biztheclown wrote:What a nutty thread. Space Marines have been nerfed to hell but are the new supreme power in the galaxy. ORks are unbeatable, but their new codex is already obsolete. Terminators are too ridiculously good, but too expensive to actually think about taking. Squads of 10 are two points more each, but have 20 points of "free" weapons.

Just for a minute, imagine that the guys who came up with 5th ed might have an idea what they're doing better than you.

But if that happened, what would the negative nancy's have to discuss? No matter what, the fan boyz will see the glass half full and the nay sayers will see it half empty. there is nothing we can do about that.

If that happened, the entire Internet would dry up, turn into dust, and blow away...

Well there's nothing wrong with discussing what people think should be done and how they'd like things to change just as long as it doesn't get out of hand or people just suggesting horribly over the top things. Game designers are just people though and they mess up sometimes, it's what FAQs and erratas are for.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Same for Chaos. I mean why should I use C:CSM anymore? If I'm going to be forced to do a "counts as" army (which is basically what the Chaos codex forces 89% of the Chaos legions to do) why wouldn't I have them "counts as" the army from the codex with more options?

Brilliant. All those poor suckers who have fully painted Armored Companies should now play them as Nidzilla. Or better yet, I'll play my D-Eldar with Ork rules, because the Ork codex has more options.

Alpharius wrote:I hear that the Cyclone Missile Launcher will now give the model one sustained fire die!

Really!

No, it's actually the Thunderfire launcher with it's three modes of fire, launchng the player's choice of either sustained fire dice, artillery dice or overwatch counters.

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:Well there's nothing wrong with discussing what people think should be done and how they'd like things to change just as long as it doesn't get out of hand or people just suggesting horribly over the top things. Game designers are just people though and they mess up sometimes, it's what FAQs and erratas are for.

It's true, the Developers are lowly humans such as we are. It really is such a shame that we only get FAQ's ever 2-3 years, and they refuse to retroactively go back and fix broken aspects of Codex's/Army Books.

I guess in some ways it's just too much trouble to go back and re-write a rule. Plus I guess they don't want to deal with people waking up one day and having something that was a little too effective taken out of their book and getting angry. It's just easier to leave things as they are and vaguely promise a change in the future. I feel like a lot of the explanations and stuff given by games workshop staff are just ways to placate people so they'll stop complaining. Example. I don't really think books will come out for individual chaos legions much like an Alien Hunters codex never came out, but they talked about it because people were wanting it.

Polonius wrote:I was talking to my buddy about the nature of the new SM compared to the old CSM one, and he had the unmitigated gall to say that people were only complaining about the nerf, which lead me to explain in graphic detail the ways the codexs are different, in terms of simply eliminating entire build concepts.

Seriously, how many bike heavy MEQ lists, in todays all-killer/no-filler philosophy, does the environment need?

Yes, many of us know the difference between how Ravenwing, White Scars, and Nightlords should look, fight and play on the tabletop;

DA/BA players, well.... Ouside of RW/DW and all jump armies, I agree there's increasingly little reason to play them.

Finally, and while I have a Space marine army, I'm mostly an IG player. As an IG player, I have exactly one codex to use. Any MEQ player, in today's brave new "no chapters, no legions" environment can use six different codexes for the same base of Powered armored guys with bolters. Sure, every codex has it's unique units, but with 1500pts of basic MEQs and vehicles and a few 1000pt sideboards an army can be built that can easily use 6 different codex books. This isn't MEQ hate, it's just pointing out that thinking in terms of a single MEQ codex is self limiting. It's a brave new world.

Exactly right. The new-style Codices are all about paring back options so that armies have more distinctive play styles with reduced overlap.

In the brave new world, *one* MEQ Biker army is more than enough. Two is overkill, considering how goofy bikes are as a fighting concept in the Far Future of Humanity. Splitting hairs to such a fine degree is simply unnecessary, particularly from the opponent's POV. It's enough for someone to see that he's against MEQ Bikers to let him know he's playing Ravenwing, rather than having to guess what his opponent plays. Which makes it harder to confuse and cheat.

In the same vein, *one* Terminator army and *one* Jump army are enough.

BTW, nice advertisment for Jervis-style "grey marines".

Well, I'm think that there is room for plenty of lists, but that ship has sailed. IMO, there's no reason there can't be White Scars (loyalist bikers who are good fighters on bikes in a heavy cavalry mode), Ravenwing (loyalist bikers who are more mobile and agile in a light cavalry mode), and Nightlords (traitor bikers and raptors that have more psychological advantages). Of course, this requires balancing three lists and would cost a lot of resources.

And in the last sentence, you give a very compelling reason why not. High cost for marginal (if any) payback.

Put another way, given that GW has limited resources (which translates into limited releases, maximum 5 per year), which would you rather GW produce first:
- Imperial Guard, then Biel-Tan
- Space Wolves, then Necrons
- White Scars, then Night Lords

To me, the above order is preferable. Non-MEQs, then somewhat interesting MEQs, lastly hair-splitting MEQs. The last thing that 40k needs right now is more redundantly duplicative MEQs pushed to the fore of the releases.

biztheclown wrote:But if that happened, what would the negative nancy's have to discuss? No matter what, the fan boyz will see the glass half full and the nay sayers will see it half empty. there is nothing we can do about that.

I'm an engineer, and the glass is neither half-full nor half-empty. It has a factor of safety of 2.0. Or, it isn't being used to its maximum design capacity by the Owner.

Back to the topic. I'm just glad that I play SW. I get the benefit of horribly overpowered stuff for a few months before the SW codex is redone.

Nay, the glass is oversized by a factor of 100%

I dont know if anyone allready posted it but there are some bew rumours on BOLS

Link: http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/

For those too lazy to click the link, directly taken from BOLS:

Marneus Calgar
First off, Marneus Calgar is described as awesome; the Abaddon of loyalists. Not simply because he's an outstanding fighter but because of the support he provides for his army. He gives all Ultramarines the ability to pass or fail any Leadership test (other reports say morale checks). This is a superior ability to Combat Tactics as that only works in CC and the marines can normally only choose to fail.

Marneus also has a rule called "God of War" which allows him to re-roll virtually anything (shooting to hit rolls, attacks rolls in assualt, to wound rolls). It is basically the psychic power Warp Time, but is always on and works with Marneus' shooting. His storm bolter built into the Gauntlets of Ultramar is AP2. Marneus had 4 base attacks on his statline and is armed with two powerfists. ~you do the math

Calgar possesses Eternal Warrior without any mention of a mantle. Power armour is apparently no longer an option for him, but his "Honour Guard" are still in power armor. Finally, he's wearing his Terminator armour with an additional 4+ invulnerable save.

Honor Guard Vs Command Squads
There is a bit of confusion regarding these units so here are some other morsels we've heard. Honour Guard and Command Squads are two different things. Only "Chapter Masters" can get Honour Guard and they cannot take apothecaries (so no Honor Guard-Feel No Pain combos). Command Squads are available for company captains. The leader of the Command Squad is the company champion who gets to re-roll all hits against enemy ICs.

Sounds like fun or not depending on which side of the line you stand.

Nice to see my half brother getting a bit of love. Guess he must have misplaced his power armour.

BYE

We cant really make 100% confirmations on the new SM codex because, here is the strange part.. its not out yet!!! so we cant really say much about it, i went to the local GW store and talked about it with one of the employee's and he said its absolutely awesome... so there is really not much point of arguing about whats happened unless U have actually seen the codex...
The only thing i know 100% is that its coming out in October (AUS) and that there is alot of information about 1st founded chapters...

Cheers,
Gutteridge

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:Well there's nothing wrong with discussing what people think should be done and how they'd like things to change just as long as it doesn't get out of hand or people just suggesting horribly over the top things. Game designers are just people though and they mess up sometimes, it's what FAQs and erratas are for.

It's true, the Developers are lowly humans such as we are. It really is such a shame that we only get FAQ's ever 2-3 years, and they refuse to retroactively go back and fix broken aspects of Codex's/Army Books.

And in any other company, if they made the same mistakes over and over, they would have been replaced.

I am constantly amazed at the ability of people to scream that the sky is falling. I know it's the internet, and I know that's the whole point of a forum dedicated to rumors, but I'm still shocked. Especially since many of the people screaming bloody murder are veterans who have been through enough pre-release rumor-fests to know better.

Does anyone remember when a picture of the Ork codex weapons summary was leaked? People saw the two Ordnance weapons that Orks were getting (Killakannon and the Boomgun) and everyone instantly declared that Ork shooting was going to be completely broken and that Space Marines would be blasted from the table by a massive horde of Ork ordnance weapons.

Now. . .when's the last time you saw an Ork player using multiple Killakannons and/or a Boomguns? How about even one? Maybe you've seen one in a game, but I'm sure it wasn't busy ruining the game of 40K.

Until you see the points cost of the units and their abilities and the context within the ability can be taken and used, you can't know what is balanced or crazy-abusive. And it certainly isn't worth the time and effort to type out how much everything is broken and horrible before you even know it to be true.

The fact is, marines currently have some pretty sick abilities.

How about a psychic power that makes all models within 12" take a morale check at -2 Ld and if they fail they run off the board? How about if you can take two models with this power and then deep strike them into the middle of an enemy army?

How about a psychic power that shoots all the way across the table ignoring LOS and does multiple hits on every enemy unit it crosses?

How about a vehicle that allows players to stack multiple minefields at the feet of units thereby making it nearly impossible for horde armies to assault them without perishing?

How about a piece of wargear that nullfies every enemy psychic power about 50% of the time?

How about Devestator squads w/ 4 Heavy Bolters that get +1 to their armor penetration rolls against vehicles so they're great against both infantry and light vehicles?

How about SM armies with 12+ Assault Cannons?

How about a commander that gives Ld10 to the entire army?

When you consider that many of these items are likely either going the way of the dodo (the psychic powers, the Whirlwind minefield and the Tank Hunters vet skill) or being altered (psychic hoods), frankly I don't care about any of those new toys because the toys the Space Marines are losing were way sicker.

And who cares about the wacky toys that the Techmarine is able to get? The fact is, the basic marine squad has been changed to limit the amount of heavy and special weapons the unit can carry so a marine army as a whole is going to be forced to spend a lot more of its points on basic marines with a bolter.

Overall I look forward to reading the codex and seeing all those new units and toys. Sounds like fun. The sky is not falling, everything is going to be okay.

yakface wrote:Overall I look forward to reading the codex and seeing all those new units and toys. Sounds like fun. The sky is not falling, everything is going to be okay.

The sky may not be falling, but when Yakface says that he is looking forward to a marine codex, it is surely a sign of the end times.

Hellfury wrote:

yakface wrote:Overall I look forward to reading the codex and seeing all those new units and toys. Sounds like fun. The sky is not falling, everything is going to be okay.

The sky may not be falling, but when Yakface says that he is looking forward to a marine codex, it is surely a sign of the end times.

LOL (and I actually mean that).

True, true. I guess all it takes is rampant doomsday predictions based on partial information to get me to defend Space Marines. . .shame on me.

yakface wrote:Overall I look forward to reading the codex and seeing all those new units and toys. Sounds like fun. The sky is not falling, everything is going to be okay.

I have to say that the new codex is making me put together a new marine army; but because the list sounds to be the most fun marine list yet. From everything I've seen so far it's going to be a reduction in power from the current one, but still competitive.

It's ok Yakface, I'll be sure to stick up for your Guard when the doomsday machine has its sights on that new codex

Hellfury wrote:The sky may not be falling

Actually, current rumor state that Shrike grants army wide fleet. If that's correct, I'm going to field some 3+inv, Hammerwielding, fleeting assault termies, modeled with ballerina costumes to indicate their special status. Then the sky will fall...

His Master's Voice wrote:

Hellfury wrote:The sky may not be falling

Actually, current rumor state that Shrike grants army wide fleet. If that's correct, I'm going to field some 3+inv, Hammerwielding, fleeting assault termies, modeled with ballerina costumes to indicate their special status. Then the sky will fall...

Yeah, haven't seen too much discussion about that, mostly other fairly inconsequential things. Shrike granting universal Fleet plus 3+ invulnerable Storm Shields is really, really strong if it's true. Of course, it's still going to require an expensive IC and expensive non-scoring units, but it'll make deep striking assault termis viable.

And we return to the regularly scheduled gnashing of teeth about "free" weapons on tactical squads...

yakface wrote:

How about a psychic power that makes all models within 12" take a morale check at -2 Ld and if they fail they run off the board? How about if you can take two models with this power and then deep strike them into the middle of an enemy army?

How about a psychic power that shoots all the way across the table ignoring LOS and does multiple hits on every enemy unit it crosses?

How about a vehicle that allows players to stack multiple minefields at the feet of units thereby making it nearly impossible for horde armies to assault them without perishing?

How about a piece of wargear that nullfies every enemy psychic power about 50% of the time?

How about Devestator squads w/ 4 Heavy Bolters that get +1 to their armor penetration rolls against vehicles so they're great against both infantry and light vehicles?

How about SM armies with 12+ Assault Cannons?

How about a commander that gives Ld10 to the entire army?

The only place I'll disagree is with the Hood. It works 40% (+/-) of the time against things of equal Leadership. Most psykers are Ld10 anyway, so the better numbers never really come into it. The Hood, like the Hellhound, is terribly over estimated.

Everything else though, yeah. The Master's rule to give everyone Ld10 had me pissed off from the moment we found out it was true. Thank God that rule is going away...

BYE

I'm surprised no one has posted the new BOLS rumors about our Man from Macragge, Marneus Calgar:

Marneus Calgar
First off, Marneus Calgar is described as awesome; the Abaddon of loyalists. Not simply because he's an outstanding fighter but because of the support he provides for his army. He gives all Ultramarines the ability to pass or fail any Leadership test (other reports say morale checks). This is a superior ability to Combat Tactics as that only works in CC and the marines can normally only choose to fail.

Marneus also has a rule called "God of War" which allows him to re-roll virtually anything (shooting to hit rolls, attacks rolls in assualt, to wound rolls). It is basically the psychic power Warp Time, but is always on and works with Marneus' shooting. His storm bolter built into the Gauntlets of Ultramar is AP2. Marneus had 4 base attacks on his statline and is armed with two powerfists. ~you do the math

Calgar possesses Eternal Warrior without any mention of a mantle. Power armour is apparently no longer an option for him, but his "Honour Guard" are still in power armor. Finally, he's wearing his Terminator armour with an additional 4+ invulnerable save.

Honor Guard Vs Command Squads
There is a bit of confusion regarding these units so here are some other morsels we've heard. Honour Guard and Command Squads are two different things. Only "Chapter Masters" can get Honour Guard and they cannot take apothecaries (so no Honor Guard-Feel No Pain combos). Command Squads are available for company captains. The leader of the Command Squad is the company champion who gets to re-roll all hits against enemy ICs.

Original post here: http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/

Aye, saw that this morning and went "WTF?! Oh, but it's Marneus and how many Ultra players are gonna rock him outside of APOC?"

So whilst his rules are fecking nuts I apparently was able to get over this one pretty quickly

- Salvage

Boss_Salvage wrote:So whilst his rules are fecking nuts I apparently was able to get over this one pretty quickly

Yeah, I agree completely. I mean, how often do you see Abaddon in 1750 point games?

Death By Monkeys wrote:
Marneus Calgar
...
His storm bolter built into the Gauntlets of Ultramar is AP2.

Someone in the Mechanicum has finally developed the APFSDS-DU bolter round.

ZF-

So it's looking like every chapter master is an Abbadon Equivalent? Man and I thought he was supposed to be a unique kind of bad @$$. So the Imperium has like a thousand Abbadons running around. Who woulda thought.

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:So it's looking like every chapter master is an Abbadon Equivalent? Man and I thought he was supposed to be a unique kind of bad @$$. So the Imperium has like a thousand Abbadons running around. Who woulda thought.

With ridiculously selective use of "Counts-as"... sure.

The amount of whine on this forum these days is unbearable. Marines are seemingly getting an interesting codex (for once) and all we're hearing is everyone whining why their own pet projects 10 years ago didn't get as cool rules? What do you want? More bland rules, no wargear options, nothing new except one useless special character and new hats for tank commanders, just to keep it all in line with what we've had in the past? If you consider the new C: SM interesting, instead of jealous whine you should do one or both of two things: Either start a Space Marine army and enjoy the support GW is giving you and/or keep your thumbs up that all the future army releases get an equally interesting treatment. On the Warhammer side all the recent army books have been very interesting to say the least, and none of them have been lacking useful units, tricks and abilities, and I see no reason why this couldn't also be the case in 40K. Many things have changed within GW during the past two years as you've all noticed, and I'm simply curious to see how it all pans out. This year has been an improvement in all respects and I for one can say that it has rejuvenated my interest in the company and the games that it produces.

I'm in agreement with you there Therion. I despise the sheer number of MEQ armies out there, but I'm glad the most commonly used one looks like it's going to be fun to play.
And almost as importantly, have more than two or three usable builds in competative games.

Therion has got it right, though to be honest I don't understand most of the whining because I don't see Marines being some kind of super dominant tournament army with this kit, but without seeing the book - who knows.

And yeah, where's the old style Dakka that took it in stride, you guys are making this place look like Warseer!

Death By Monkeys wrote:I'm surprised no one has posted the new BOLS rumors about our Man from Macragge, Marneus Calgar:

Marneus Calgar
First off, Marneus Calgar is described as awesome; the Abaddon of loyalists. Not simply because he's an outstanding fighter but because of the support he provides for his army. He gives all Ultramarines the ability to pass or fail any Leadership test (other reports say morale checks). This is a superior ability to Combat Tactics as that only works in CC and the marines can normally only choose to fail.

Marneus also has a rule called "God of War" which allows him to re-roll virtually anything (shooting to hit rolls, attacks rolls in assualt, to wound rolls). It is basically the psychic power Warp Time, but is always on and works with Marneus' shooting. His storm bolter built into the Gauntlets of Ultramar is AP2. Marneus had 4 base attacks on his statline and is armed with two powerfists. ~you do the math

Calgar possesses Eternal Warrior without any mention of a mantle. Power armour is apparently no longer an option for him, but his "Honour Guard" are still in power armor. Finally, he's wearing his Terminator armour with an additional 4+ invulnerable save.

Honor Guard Vs Command Squads
There is a bit of confusion regarding these units so here are some other morsels we've heard. Honour Guard and Command Squads are two different things. Only "Chapter Masters" can get Honour Guard and they cannot take apothecaries (so no Honor Guard-Feel No Pain combos). Command Squads are available for company captains. The leader of the Command Squad is the company champion who gets to re-roll all hits against enemy ICs.

Original post here: http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/

He keeps his pimp hand strong!

The metagame is in a degenerative state, a strong marine codex is crucial as an anti-Ork contender. I hope the new Marine Dex is amazing, positively dynamite, with a strong emphasis on anti-horde.

His pimp hand is indeed strong.

The only thing I really hate about this new codex is that it's going to make me start Space Marines. I just sold my Chaos Marines to start playing Tau about a 7 seven months and I already have to go back to MEQ. Lame. Not selling my Tau though, having too much fun.

Agreed!

The "spase marienz huurr!!!`!!1!!" crowd really needs to relax.

I can't disagree with Therion, Voodoo, Da Boss and that side. Much as I hate to say it, this is the place for the whining, mewling Casper Milquetoasts to get together and circle-jerk. I keep hearing about old-skool Dakka. The Dakka that "takes it in stride", the Dakka that tells it like it is. So I signed up here. And there is still some of that here! However, there's a lot of snuffling and wanting of mommies as well.

I guess that's just one of the things that we must accept.

Alpharius wrote:The "spase marienz huurr!!!`!!1!!" crowd realyl needs to relax.

Isn't that more like the B&C? Here it's more like "SPASE MARIENZ?! OH NOS!!1!!2!" or something

- Salvage

I just want some of that thunderfart cannon action for IG in the next dex baby.

grizgrin wrote:I can't disagree with Therion, Voodoo, Da Boss and that side. Much as I hate to say it, this is the place for the whining, mewling Casper Milquetoasts to get together and circle-jerk. I keep hearing about old-skool Dakka. The Dakka that "takes it in stride", the Dakka that tells it like it is. So I signed up here. And there is still some of that here! However, there's a lot of snuffling and wanting of mommies as well.

I guess that's just one of the things that we must accept.

It is the price we pay for the influx of new people.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Therion has got it right, though to be honest I don't understand most of the whining because I don't see Marines being some kind of super dominant tournament army with this kit, but without seeing the book - who knows.

And yeah, where's the old style Dakka that took it in stride, you guys are making this place look like Warseer!

I'm sorry, but that's a load of hogwash. This forum has always been like this, what you're experiencing is nostalgia for something that never existed, nothing more.

Crimson Devil wrote:It is the price we pay for the influx of new people.

Yeah, back when Dakka was so small cockroaches could spit on it from above, there were whinefests about SpaceMarinez111!^ that could last for four pages. Those were the times...

Wait...

Never mind.

Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm sorry, but that's a load of hogwash. This forum has always been like this, what you're experiencing is nostalgia for something that never existed, nothing more.

Quoted for truth.

I was merely commenting that from a "Fluff" standpoint, I mean, if the greatest warlord of chaos (Abbadon) is the same as a Chapter Master do the gifts of the gods of chaos, countless battles, and centuries upon centuries of experience count for nothing? I can understand people like Logan Grimnar, and Marneus Calgar being equals to the Great Despoiler but now it's looking like every master can just come out of the word work and smack down the Imperium's most hated enemy.

In "fluff" Marines are a rapid response, hard hitting strike force and every Marine should be able to kill 20-30 standard men by himself. It doesn't work this way in game because they have to fit everything from a Grot to Abbadon on a 10 point stat scale.

Fluff does not equal rules. Never has, never will.

Yeah that's true. But it is a tad frustrating sometimes. I don't much mind the new rules I'll kill those power armored whack jobs the same way I always have, with plasma!

Boss_Salvage wrote:

Alpharius wrote:The "spase marienz huurr!!!`!!1!!" crowd realyl needs to relax.

Isn't that more like the B&C? Here it's more like "SPASE MARIENZ?! OH NOS!!1!!2!" or something

Hey! If you're shooting at B&C, does that mean I can take a dig at Warseer?

Warseer does a good enough job embarrassing itself.

Just to clarrify: I'm not making any comparison to any sort of good old days. Sometimes a good ould whinge is what's needed. God knows I used to do enough of it back when Orks were massively out of date. I just feel that in this case, there's no real need to whine. The codex, based on these rumours, looks fine to me. Certainly not overpowered.
And I hate Space Marines. (Okay, I play Nurgle Chaos, but I'd prefer a LATD army.)

I play ultra marine so I em happy whit what I hear

Please cease the needless badmouthing of other forums.

Any further cases will result in your post being removed and possible account suspension.


Thanks.

What a thread this turned out to be.

And for the record, Dakka faithful have alway panicked and whined about every possible new release. I still remember the panic of Codex Armageddon, or how everything was utterly lost with the Tau and s5 weapons for all of them... It's part of the fun and always brings out a few well drafted and logical responses that remind you why Dakka is a good forum.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Therion has got it right, though to be honest I don't understand most of the whining because I don't see Marines being some kind of super dominant tournament army with this kit, but without seeing the book - who knows.

And yeah, where's the old style Dakka that took it in stride, you guys are making this place look like Warseer!

I'm sorry, but that's a load of hogwash. This forum has always been like this, what you're experiencing is nostalgia for something that never existed, nothing more.

This is probably true, but I recall many times when I joined & read Dakka when I started gaming that there was a fair amount of "oh just deal with it using X, Y, Z".

Honestly I think it's slowed that Marneus is getting stupid good rules, but it's not like anything else that the Marines are already losing. OK, they're getting one character who will have combat status similar to a Chaos Tzeench Demon Prince but will cost more and will sill only move 6" if he plans to assault something.

Standard procedure still applies to handling him just like you would any other super assault unit in 5th. Let him eat a squad (hopefully taking some parting power fist shots), and then shoot the hell out of his unit & repeat the process.

I hardly see the changes the SM are getting being something that will make them stand up to the current powerful armies in the game in comparison with what they have now. Marneus gets some fanboy styled rules that make him look cool, but I doubt he'll be the "Eldrad for Marines" that some people think he's going to be. Personally I'd rather have the twinlinked Meltas + free Thunderhammers for Vet Sarges that the Salamanders guy brings to the table if I wanted to powergame with marines going by the rumors.

migsula wrote: What a thread this turned out to be.

And for the record, Dakka faithful have alway panicked and whined about every possible new release. I still remember the panic of Codex Armageddon, or how everything was utterly lost with the Tau and s5 weapons for all of them... It's part of the fun and always brings out a few well drafted and logical responses that remind you why Dakka is a good forum.

Tau are getting S5 weapons?!?!?!!?

yakface wrote:
Please cease the needless badmouthing of other forums.

Any further cases will result in your post being removed and possible account suspension.

Apologies from me then, B&C is good people in my book, can't argue with that color scheme either. I do wonder how the SM rumors are going down over there, where the impact is even bigger than over here in the Land of Dak ...

- Salvage

Points will go up :(

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:And yeah, where's the old style Dakka that took it in stride, you guys are making this place look like Warseer!

I'm sorry, but that's a load of hogwash. This forum has always been like this, what you're experiencing is nostalgia for something that never existed, nothing more.

yeah, I agree Nostalgia isn't as good as it used to be...

PaniC.

After resisting starting a Spaze Marine army for 11 years, I might actually start one this fall. It sounds like it might be possible to actually do something fun with them rather then just spam las/plas squads.

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:I was merely commenting that from a "Fluff" standpoint, I mean, if the greatest warlord of chaos (Abbadon) is the same as a Chapter Master do the gifts of the gods of chaos, countless battles, and centuries upon centuries of experience count for nothing? I can understand people like Logan Grimnar, and Marneus Calgar being equals to the Great Despoiler but now it's looking like every master can just come out of the word work and smack down the Imperium's most hated enemy.

But by your own logic, any Space Marine player could wonder how some po-dunk Renegade Warband leader, i.e. someone using Abbaddon as "counts-as", could be more powerful then the paragon of Space Marine heroes. Or how some random Farseer is as grand as the legendary Eldrad. Or how some Warboss is the second-coming of Ghazghkull...

Don't let the "counts-as" game mechanic ruin the storyline you enjoy.

I wasn't talking about "counts-as" as much as just the increase in new high powered marine special characters like Tu'Shan and all the people with army wide special rules (I mean I've never really heard of some of these characters). I myself use "counts-as" for certain things, I actually think it's a fun concept.

YMMV

migsula wrote: What a thread this turned out to be.

And for the record, Dakka faithful have alway panicked and whined about every possible new release. I still remember the panic of Codex Armageddon, or how everything was utterly lost with the Tau and s5 weapons for all of them... It's part of the fun and always brings out a few well drafted and logical responses that remind you why Dakka is a good forum.

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

They need to air more new episodes of that show, I love it.

New episodes coming August 6th, I believe.

budro wrote:After resisting starting a Spaze Marine army for 11 years, I might actually start one this fall. It sounds like it might be possible to actually do something fun with them rather then just spam las/plas squads.

Has it really been 11 years of Las/Plas?

Anyway, I for one welcome the death to the old "spase mareinz (HURR!!!)" crowd, and long live the new "spase mareinz (HURR!!!)" crowd!

Maybe this time, it will actually be true!

I enjoy the diversity of opinions all along the spectrum that is what makes the forum interesting. Without it I think it would be quite boring.

Alpharius wrote:

budro wrote:After resisting starting a Spaze Marine army for 11 years, I might actually start one this fall. It sounds like it might be possible to actually do something fun with them rather then just spam las/plas squads.

Has it really been 11 years of Las/Plas?

Not really. It was 6 years of rhino rush followed by 4 years of las/plas. Not that the las/plas squad wasn't seen in 3rd edition, but it's ubiquity was a phenomenon of 4th ed.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:And yeah, where's the old style Dakka that took it in stride, you guys are making this place look like Warseer!

So I'm not the only one thinking that...

BYE

whitedragon wrote:Tau are getting S5 weapons?!?!?!!?

And their Railguns can shoot through hills!!!

BYE

Tau, why do i always have to play them. Oh ye the only guy who i play plays tau.

Nah, it's been 11 years of las/plas. I didn't buy any Rhinos for my SM until I figured out that 5th Ed would be about Objectives and Transports.

Marines going up to 16pts, meh.

marine players trying to fit all this cool stuff in to 1500pts and have a decent army at the end, be interesting to see....

Oh, they'll have some great armies, with awesome abilities in 1500 points. And about 20 figures. They better pray for God's own first turn.

The 3+ Invul save for the Terminators seems kinda ridiculous and -2 Ld for being assaulted with a Land Speeder?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

whitedragon wrote:Tau are getting S5 weapons?!?!?!!?

And their Railguns can shoot through hills!!!

BYE

What will GW think of next?!!! Surely not Space Marine Special Characters that can swing their x2 Powerfists at Initiative!?!??!

Actually Dakka has gone through a great many changes over the past 10+ years.

Yes, 10+ years - if you don't remember Dakka back when it was a small league site then you haven't seen the full breadth that Dakka has been.

I won't go into comparisons on what's better or worse - my personal opinion is that the Dakka of today is simply different. Some things have gotten better, some things worse, and once it's all been washed that's about all you can really say - that the times have changed dramatically.

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:I was merely commenting that from a "Fluff" standpoint, I mean, if the greatest warlord of chaos (Abbadon) is the same as a Chapter Master do the gifts of the gods of chaos, countless battles, and centuries upon centuries of experience count for nothing?

Yes.

That's cool just wondering.

His Master's Voice wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Same for Chaos. I mean why should I use C:CSM anymore? If I'm going to be forced to do a "counts as" army (which is basically what the Chaos codex forces 89% of the Chaos legions to do) why wouldn't I have them "counts as" the army from the codex with more options?

Brilliant. All those poor suckers who have fully painted Armored Companies should now play them as Nidzilla. Or better yet, I'll play my D-Eldar with Ork rules, because the Ork codex has more options.

I don't see any reason why not. If GW $hits on your army why not just make it "counts as" a better one?

I don't understand all the crying. From what I have read this new codex sounds weak. Apparently all the bitching and crying last year by the haters convinced the developers to nerf Space Marines.

G