Just an idea I'm playing around with...

Have several HQs, each unlocks several units so...

HQ - GK Master
(He unlocks)
Elite - GK terminators
Troops - GK squads and varients
Heavy - GK dread and land raiders

HQ - Cannoness
Elite - Celsetines
Troops - Battle sisters
Fast - Seraphim
Fast - Immolators
Heavy - Retributor
Heavy - Exorcist

HQ - Inquisitor Lord
Henchmen
Elite - Normal Inquisitor
Elite - Assassins
Elite - Death cultists
Elite - Daemon Hosts/high level psykers
Elite - funky alien squad
Elite - Rogue trader (with funky retinue and wargear options)
Troops - Inquisition Storm troops

HQ - Priest
HQ - Saint
Elite - Confessors
Troops - Zealots
Fast - Arco-Flagellants
Heavy - Penitant Engine

HQ - Planetary Defense Force Officer
Troops - IG squads
Troops - conscript squads
Heavy - IG tanks and heavy weapon teams

HQ - Death Watch Commander
Elite - Death watch
Troops - Marine tac squads
Fast - Land speeders
Heavy - SM tanks

(and what the heck since GW already had the models why not use them?)
HQ - Arbites Judge
Elite - Arbites with bolters
Troops - Arbites with shot guns
Troops - Arbites with shock mauls and shields
Fast - Arbites on bikes
Fast - cyber mastiffs
Heavy - Arbites snipers

Unlike a lot of the 5th edition codexes this one actually allows all the current builds of the 3rd edition book. The ability to cheese your army is sharply curtained by the limit of 2 HQs. If you want GKs with IG shooting you can't have assassins or marines. It also functions as Codex Imperium at last letting marines and IG fight side-by-side, although both are limited.

Thoughts?

I've been slowly working on a Codex: Inquisition for a while now, and it actually doesn't involve Sisters or GKs. It's just pure Inquisition, with three flavours of Inquisitor:

1. Generic (for all our Codex: CSM fans)
2. Malleus
3. Hereticus
4. Xenos

With each of them, as you have above Kyoto, 'unlocking' new troop types and allies.

The only thing I have done that's quite a bit different to the above is that I've expanded the Deathwatch quite a bit so that it includes Deathwatch Devastator, Assault, Command and Terminator Squads (both types). As well as Deathwatch Dreads.

I did this out of pure selfishness, as I own a 2500+/- Deathwatch army that consists of a Command Squad, 2 Tac Squads, an Assault Squad, a Dev Squad, a Termy Squad and a Termy Assault Squad.


I figure Deathwatch would be the type of unit that tailors itself for whatever mission it has been given, so limiting them to only Tactical Squads doesn't make a lot of sense.


The only thing I wouldn't include are Arbites. A while back I built up my Arbites from a simple Necromunda gang into several full squads and to me that just don't fit with the Inquisition in the same way mixing Adeptus Mechanicus doesn't fit with the Inquisition.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:I did this out of pure selfishness, as I own a 2500+/- Deathwatch army that consists of a Command Squad, 2 Tac Squads, an Assault Squad, a Dev Squad, a Termy Squad and a Termy Assault Squad.


I figure Deathwatch would be the type of unit that tailors itself for whatever mission it has been given, so limiting them to only Tactical Squads doesn't make a lot of sense.


The only thing I wouldn't include are Arbites. A while back I built up my Arbites from a simple Necromunda gang into several full squads and to me that just don't fit with the Inquisition in the same way mixing Adeptus Mechanicus doesn't fit with the Inquisition.

BYE

Well as you know I've become alergic to MEQs in recent years so I wanted to keep the Death Watch pretty simple. 'Death Watch' would be the elite shooty high unit with their move and shoot heavy bolters. Everyone else would marines who happen to wear black and have silver sleeves. No additional special rules.

Why do you think Arbs and Inquisition don't get along? Arbites are the Imperiums second line of defense on law enforcement (after the local police) so I think that's who Inquisitors would go to first to bust up a cult.

Yes, but not as forces involved in a war. It's be very small scale, like Necromunda scale. Not 40K scale.

BYE

Yeah, as much as I do love the Arbites, I've got to agree with HBMC on this one. I think they're appropriate as a unit that the Inquisitors might conscript, but not an entire army. Similarly, I think Planetary Defense Force Officer isn't the right title for that HQ. I agree that you definitely need an HQ that unlocks IG, but it's my understanding that Inquisitors often conscript straight out of the Guard rather than just taking up the local yokels.

Well they'd recruit out of whatever they wanted, and whatever was available. But I doubt there's much difference between PDFs and regular Guard armies other than the availability of specialist equipment and units (like Ab-Humans, rare tanks, Grenadiers, etc.).

It'd just be inducted Guard.

BYE

I called the IG unit PDF rather than IG to explain ehy they only get a limited selection of units. Similarly I have the Deathwatch commander unlocking marines to explain why they only get limited units.

This is both to fit with the 5th edition idea of 'everything in one book' and for game balance reasons.

1) I think Assassins, Alpha Psykers, Xenos Squads, Rogue Traders, and Inquisitorial Stormtroopers should not be bound to an Inquisitor Lord. Instead they should be bound to a normal Inquisitor which would be selectable by any force. I still agree with Demonhosts and Death-cult Assassins only being selectable if you have an Inquisitor Lord (along with the other restrictions, such as no GK's if you take any Daemonhosts).

2) I think Planetary Defense Force Officer is fairly redundant and said bound units should be available to every force.

3) Instead of breaking Arbites down that far, why not have an Arbite Grand Judge as the HQ, Arbite Judge Squad as the Elites, and combining your two Arbites troop selections into one squad with just different options?


With these changes in mind you'd still be allowed a fluffy, well-rounded force while having to choose carefully as to what exactly you want in it (having to choose between Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Sororitas, Priests/Penitents, or Arbites (or some combination there-of)).

I agree with the fact that low level inquisitor should be available to any selection, but in order to open up the advanced inquisitor forces you should have to use the inquisitor force. If any assassin were available to normal forces they wouldn't be as specialized as the temple assassins. I could see an elite selection inquisitor being allowed a stormtrooper bodyguard as well.

As far as the arbites, I agree that there should be a better elite selection, but not individual judges themselves. Make it an Arbite assault squad and give them some high powered options, possibly a higher WS/BS but leave it at that. the HQ selection would allow for a Judge or Grand Judge, the difference being a LD point and a wound. Also, I think there should be a distinct difference between the two arbite squads. Basic arbite squads should have the arbite shotgun, which if I remember is more powerful, maybe make it STR 4 AP- or range 24, or STR 3 AP 6. Make them just below SM scouts, or their equals. I think squads with shock mauls are great, give them combat shield and you're square.

Assassins shouldn't require Inquisitorial chaperones.

BYE

How about this.

Elite Inquisitor is just an 'Inquisitor'. Or Junior Inquisitor. You can make him something specific fluff-wise if you want.

Troop:
GK, Battle Sisters and Storm Troopers always available. It is up to you to define fluff why they would be fighting together. You can do it now using allies anyway.

After that you need HQ choices or Elite Inquisitor wargear to requisition units. Including Heavy Support. Also, maybe tie GK dreads to # of GK squads to provide anti-tank. Ditto LR.

wasserrj wrote:Basic arbite squads should have the arbite shotgun, which if I remember is more powerful, maybe make it STR 4 AP- or range 24, or STR 3 AP 6. Make them just below SM scouts, or their equals. I think squads with shock mauls are great, give them combat shield and you're square.

I'd love to see the return of Executioner rounds...R: 18" S: 4 AP:5 Assault 1, Re-roll misses.

I think Kid_Kyoto, your list is a good way to organize it.

Tacobake, with Kid_Kyoto's structure you'd always have access to atleast two troop choices, having 3 perpetual choices irregardless of HQ, in addition to the HQ determined ones would go too far outside the bound of justifying by fluff and could be a bit unfair.

HBMC is right assassin should be a persistent option. When you look at every combination of forces you might make assassins would always make sense as being in it.

For the Deathwatch, I think the rules for that squad will be updated to be similar to (somewhere in between) the "Sternguard" and "Vanguard" veterans, but with aliens being preffered enemies. I think Deathwatch is the best way to incorporate a limited number of Space Marine options, the trick is balancing those choices with what is in character with Deathwatch. I think that the Sgts. in the basic spacemarine squads should receive some sort of upgrade options to make them have the preferred enemy trait and to gain the gear options of full fledge deatwatch. Also in keeping with their advanced tech theme, all their tanks should come standard with a machine spirit.

Having Arbites in there is an appropriate addition though it might be a bit much with the shear volume of options you'd have. Their was a semi-semi-official arbite list written a while ago that I think went a long way to diminishing the idea of arbites by virtue of the author's (Tim Huckabee?) limited perspective on totalitarian police states. They had water cannons, wtf? Arbites are not municipal or planetary police, they're akin to the SS or the The Peoples Armed Police of China; a federal government level of para-military force fully armed with heavy military grade firepower and unilateral police power. They are the orphans of loyal guardsmen, raised by the state to be the cold iron fist of blind justice. The arbites were originally described as being equal to planetary defense forces, able to hold off those forces in case of a planetary governor going rebel, till outside aid could arrive. A water cannon can't do that.

I think unlocking seems good in THEORY but really doesn't add much. In addition, an Inquisitor could recruit from ALL groups, even rival inquisition forces. There is also a lot of fluff to consider (for instances sisters work with ordo hereticus a lot but are not actually part of it.) Rather I think it should look like this:

HQ:
Inquisitor Lord (simplified retinue options)
Grey Knights Hero (optional Terminator Retinue)
Canoness (optional Celestian Retinue)
Deathwatch Librarian (optional Kill Team Retinue)

Elites:
Death Cult Assassin (No Inquisitor Requirement) one upgradeable to Assassinorum Assassin (No Inquisitor Requirement)
Grey Knight Terminators (Land Raider Transport Option)
Sister Repentia
Arco Flagellents/Daemonhosts (merge to a generic unit)

Troops:
Grey Knights (Land Raider Transport Option)
Sisters of Battle (upgradeable to Celestians), 5-20 squad size, Immolator Transport option
Arbites (Infiltrating light armor unit), 5-20 man unit with weapon options (like heavy stubbers and flamers)
Deathwatch Kill Team (Rhino and Drop Pod Transport Option)

Fast Attack:
Deathwatch Bikers
Seraphim
Mounted Arbites (in Chimera)
Grey Knights in Drop Pod

Heavy Support:
Whirlwind (with optional Exorcist Launcher)
Penitent Engine / Dreadnaught (with Ironclad and Venerable options)
Retributors / Domion squad combination
Lemun Russ Battle Tank (or similar ordinance weapon)


Now I know a lot of people wouldn't be happy with this system. However, it is far more efficient and likely. Dozens of options is far to many and the red tape involved in an unlocking system makes it impossible for your opponent to know if you have a legal list. Some units are basically the SAME as another unit. A penitent engine could easily be represented by a Dreadnaught with 2 close combat weapons and a pair of flamers. Retributors and Dominions are the same unit but with different weapon options. Some units just don't see enough use to be needed in a codex (for instance Grey Knight Purgation squads).

Imperial guard has been dropped, as would the rules for allies. Those kind of forces are far better represented in an apocalypse game.

The troop choices would gain bonuses against certain enemies (for instance GK's would gain something against daemons). Any specialized vehicles (like immolators and land raiders) would be transport options. With the changes to transports in 5th edition this would be virtually the same. Most units can be "upgrades" to other units. A force containing a Canoness could upgrade their whirlwind to an immolator. That sort of thing.

There would be unlocked OPTIONS in some units but not full units. A lot of these units would work for different forces based on what your army theme is. A GK dreadnaught could be painted like a Deathwatch Dreadnaught or could be a Penitent Engine. In the end it would all make for a very characterful army without being unwieldy or impossible for your opponent to understand.

Miggidy Mack, I see where you are going, but I think a better compromise would be to just make more options generic, ie Penetent Engine = Close Combat Dreadnought +Upgrade. That sort of modification does go a long way to remove clutter and cut down on the excessive number of options. At the same time though I think exclusivity of certain units to specific ordo-forces must remain intact.

The all encompassing "Codex Imperalis" Kid Kyoto favors, though tempting, may be a bit broad. Questions such as Deathwatch's ties to Adeptus Mechanicus would be lacking and tossing that in would open up another set of units. Ugh and thats too much.

I think some options should be unlocked for all forces right off the bat at least one option in each FOC. I think the PDF best represent the standard unlocked starter portion. That said and after some thought, Adeptus Arbites might best be served being consolodated into planetary defense for the purposes of the unlocking, to streamline options, but stream line arbites as an upgrade to stormtroopers. The upgrade for the stormtrooper squad would make the sgt a Judge and give the squad the wide berth of options that a IG veteran squad does, plus the shields and mauls, plus bolters etc. That would further cut down on the codex excessive unit count. They'd probably come off less like Arbites in the old Necromunda rule and more like the Enforcers seen in the newer Necromunda rules (more mix and match weapons). Drop the mastiffs as a squad, make them wargear options. Keep the Arbite bikes tossing them into the planetary defense. Thats enough to get the arbite flavor without detracting from the Inquisition aspect.

Another thing that might slim the list down is if the "funky alien squad" were not a squad but were different retinue options for the Rogue Trader. Take a Kroot Tracker, get infiltrate for the squad; Take a Tau Controller and he can designate targets, giving rerolls to hit for squad; Hrud can be special for his "fussil?" cannon.; mind slaved genestealer for close combat; and a couple of standard human crew member type options. That would help to maintain and balance that each inquisitorial ordo has one elite option (non-GK, non-SB, non-DW).

aka_mythos wrote:Miggidy Mack, I see where you are going, but I think a better compromise would be to just make more options generic, ie Penetent Engine = Close Combat Dreadnought +Upgrade. That sort of modification does go a long way to remove clutter and cut down on the excessive number of options. At the same time though I think exclusivity of certain units to specific ordo-forces must remain intact.

That's exactly what I was suggesting.

The problem with a "comprehensive" list is that it is, frankly, a hope that will never happen. I'm betting I could write the rules I designed up in a few hours. So if it would take a normal fairly intelligent gamer say 8 hours to write up some balanced rules that can build a wide variety of different rules then it would take a GW employee about 4 years to do the same thing. That's right about when they want to release.

Miggidy Mack wrote:I think unlocking seems good in THEORY but really doesn't add much.

I would generally agree - there are only a few things that should lock - one per HQ type; the rest are mix-and-match as the player desires. Conceptually, this would be like the current Chaos Marine Codex, with minimal restrictions, and a lot of flexibility. Most of the stuff should be common and sharable.

HQ
Inquisitor Lord w/ Retinue (Land Raider option)
Grey Knights Hero
Cannoness
Deathwatch Librarian

Elites
Daemonhost - requires Inquisitor Lord
Imperial Assassin - requires Inquisitor Lord
Death Cult Assassin
Grey Knight Terminators (Land Raider option)
Grey Knights Dreadnought - requires Grey Knights Hero
Sisters Repentia
Sisters Veterans
Deathwatch Kill Team

Troops
Stormtroopers / Arbites
Grey Knights
Sisters of Battle

non-FOC Troops
Arco-Flagellents
Tactical Marines
Imperial Guardsmen - (Chimera option, no Rhino / Razorback)

Transport
Rhino
Razorback / Immolator

Fast Attack
Penitent Engine
Sentinel
Seraphim
Assault Marines - requires Tactical Marines

Heavy Support
Orbital Strike
Retributors
Exorcist - requires Cannoness
Leman Russ - requires Imperial Guardsmen


Basically, streamline the list and only lock away a very few distinctive options. Let the players choose, as they can't take everything. Note that only the Inquisitor Lord has a Retinue - the rest are ICs who can join a unit.
____

minor cleanup: Arcoflagellants as Non-FOC Troops; GK Dread locked.

Miggidy Mack wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Miggidy Mack, I see where you are going, but I think a better compromise would be to just make more options generic, ie Penetent Engine = Close Combat Dreadnought +Upgrade. That sort of modification does go a long way to remove clutter and cut down on the excessive number of options. At the same time though I think exclusivity of certain units to specific ordo-forces must remain intact.

That's exactly what I was suggesting.

The problem with a "comprehensive" list is that it is, frankly, a hope that will never happen. I'm betting I could write the rules I designed up in a few hours. So if it would take a normal fairly intelligent gamer say 8 hours to write up some balanced rules that can build a wide variety of different rules then it would take a GW employee about 4 years to do the same thing. That's right about when they want to release.

I was agreeing with you to a degree. Between your list and kid_kyoto's list I would want something two steps back from your list toward Kid_Kyoto's.

An important fact is that the IG codex is rumored to have an Inquisitor as an HQ option, meant to represent when an inquisitor works closely with IG. I think we should stay away from full scale IG units; to avoid becoming an alternative to an IG list.

Another important factor is GW policy of not dropping support of armies, so while they might change rules or merge them its unlikely they would drop units from the Witchhunters and Daemonhunters armies. GW intends only a consolidation of the number of commonalities between the lists.

Core units you can take irregardless of HQ:

Elite:
Temple Assassins
Death Cult Assassins
Ordo Inquisitor

Troop:
Inq. Stormtroopers (Arbite Upgrades)

Fast Attack:
Sentinels (Upgrade to Penitent Engines or Robots makes it a Heavy Support)

Heavy Support:
Land Raider
Orbital Bombardment

If you take an Inquisitor, you then choose their ordo:
Ordo: Xenos, Malleus, Hereticus Retinues (common and distinctive options for each retinue)
Common Henchmen: the Familiar; the Acolyte; the Warrior; the Sage
Xenos: the Magos; the Xenos
Malleus: the Heirophant; the Mystic
Hereticus: the Penitent; the Chirurgeon

Your selection unlocks:
Xenos: Rogue Trader; Tech Priest; Robot Upgrade
Malleus: Daemon Host; (I think they need more units)
Hereticus: Arco-Flagellants; Priest; Penitent Engine Upgrade

Deathwatch Commander (Librarian or Captain) allows:
Elite: Deathwatch Terminators (weapon mix; combi-options; accurate deepstrike)
Troop: Deathwatch
Fast Attack: Land Speeder (standard SM speeder but with the deepstrike jamming the scout speeders have); DW Assault (Vanguard style)
Heavy Support: (Something new maybe a droppod with support weapons; Devastator squad with limited but special options)

GK Commander:
Elite: GK terminators
Troops: GK squads
Heavy Support: GK dread; Purgation Squad

Cannoness:
Elite: Celsetines
Troops: Battle sisters
Fast Attack: Seraphim; Immolators
Heavy Support: Retributor; Exorcist


In total 30 unit options; with a single HQ choice you'd have access to only 10-13 units; with two HQ choices you'd have access to between 14-17 units. So while the overall codex may have a lot of options practical options are more limited because you'll never have more than half the total number of units choose from (keeping people in line with the character of their sub-faction). The inquisition becomes a bit of a swiss army knife, specific tools to deal with specific threats.
---

Leave out basic marines, leave out Imperial Guard; it adds too much to a bloated list. If you want to play Inquisition play Inquisition. If you want to play IG or SM with a few Inquisitorial items, they should be taken as allies. Let the inquisition stand on its own and not on the backs of other army lists.

HBMC, I only noticed what you said you added for the Deathwatch. Deathwatch kill teams are effectively already a sort of command squad; captain surrounded by veteran marines. There advantage should be the fact that they'll have many captain and librarians fielded. They would not have Dreadnoughts, for the veterans who join the Deathwatch would be too valuable to their chapter of origin to be held indefinitely by the Deathwatch; those veterans wounded would be returned to their appropriate chapters to be entombed in their chapters dreadnoughts. Landspeeders are really more appropriate to the Deathwatch as a support provider; think special ops calling in close air support.

There isn't such a thing as a generic DW tactical squad; their kill teams similar to special forces units comprised exclusively of Veterans as such no marine chapter would send their veteran on a temporary tour with a DW force, dealing with bigger alien threats, just to see them more poorly equipped than they are when their facing conventional enemies. Veterans in the Codex: SM receive a big boost in the codex and Deathwatch should be on par with those units. All Deathwatch are super well equipped veterans. I think you just meant the kill teams when you said DW "tactical squad" I just wanted to add clarification to what you said.

DW should have a single terminator squads, allowing a mix of weapons from both assault and tactical style squads. They should also have some additional gear options (taking combi-bolter and getting access to special ammo and a better deapstrike).

If they have an assault squad it would be in the same vein as "Vanguard" marines.

Devastator squads, yes but I think they should have a very limited heavy weapon selection (DW Heavy Bolter, Needle Sniper rifles; and maybe a special missile launcher); DW heavy bolter established; needle sniper weapon has been quoted several times as the choice ordo xenos weapon, missile launcher has DW like flexibility. More importantly they have to be portable enough for them to keep their infiltration.

Wow... John's Inquisition list actually manages to make the Inquisition about as dry and boring as actual GW Codices.

And sometimes I'm glad he can't read my posts. Please don't quote me.



Anyway, (you can quote this part), I don't mind the idea of 'unlockable' assets within an army. In fact, my ideas for Codex: Inquisition for our Revisited Project stem from having a single army list that changes depending upon what Ordos you include.

Of course, this also includes separate Grey Knight and Sisters Codices for those who want to detach themselves from the Inquisition (and maybe even Codex: Deathwatch if I can think of a way to make them interesting as an army), but I think in order to have a successful Inquisition Codex, it has to be some that can take lots of forms. The Inquisition has many different ways of solving problems, and a simple army list (like the dull thing two posts above me) isn't the way to represent that.

Sadly, the idea of an Inquisition Codex - a Codex filled with the most quirky and unique things within the Imperium, available in different ways to a myriad of vastly different Inquisitors - is like an anathema to GW's current writers. They want solid lists with no options. The Inquisition, by its very nature, goes against that.

This why we won't see an Inquisition Codex for a long time...

BYE

The only way I could see a unified codex working is to have 4 army lists in the one book - one for each chamber militant and an extra for the Inquisition.

The chamber militant army lists are actually really simple. The only one with options is the Inquisition list (and even then you're just talking about wargear/retinue and maybe one elite choice) and all options are dependent on the Ordo chosen for the Inquisitor.

After you pick your Ordo, you can either do a pure Chamber Militant force, a pure Inquisition force, or a mix of the two.


But as HBMC points out, that gives you options; and we all know what GW thinks of them....

I don't think that any IG units should go into the book. Keep in mind that the Lemun Russ is actually not exclusive to the IG, the arbites have access to them too (but not many) for "riot and crowd control". The list I proposed (while definitely not perfect) supports all the current MODELS. GW has no problems removing units from the range, just not models.

If they roll all the ordo's into one book I think Arbites need to be something totally new. Not just Storm Troops with Shotguns. They would probably even need a new plastic kit. That plus a deathwatch upgrade sprue (weapons and shoulders in plastic) and you have yourself some new units ready to go.

The codex is 2 editions old. More importantly, a lot of the units/concepts were brand new with these codex's. The second pass at them can make some pretty big changes and probably needs too.

I think I have a great idea pulled from the very pages of other Imperial books. Here's my list idea...

===HQ===
0-1 Inquisitor Lord
- May take a retinue of Henchmen or Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.
- Wargear available depends mainly on a Mark-like system. Seal of the Daemonhunter gives him access to Daemonhunter equipment and the Daemonhost unit, Seal of the Witch Hunter gives him access to Witch Hunter equipment and the Alpha Psykers unit, and Seal of the Alien Hunter gives him access to Alien Hunter equipment and the Xenos Squad unit.
0-1 Grey Knights Hero (GK)
0-1 Deathwatch Hero (DW)
0-1 Adepta Sororitas Heroine (SB)
0-5 Priests
- Do not take up a slot on the Force Organization chart, as per normal.

===ELITES===
Inquisitor
0-1 Officio Assassorium Operative
- Only requires an Inquisitor in a force if being used as an Ally.
Death-cult Assassins
- May only be taken if you have an Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord present in your army as per normal.
0-1 Deviate Unit (Daemonhosts, Alpha Psykers, Xenos Squad)
- Can choose from Daemonhosts, Alpha Psykers, or a Xenos Squad depending on what Seal the Inquisitor Lord has. This unit can only be in an army if the army has an Inquisitor Lord.
- If Daemonhosts are chosen the force may not include any Grey Knights (indicated by the GK abbreviation for the purposes of this list).
- If Alpha Psykers are chosen the force may not include any Sisters of Battle/Adepta Sororitas (indicated by the SB abbreviation for the purposes of this list).
- If a Xenos Squad is chosen the force may not include any Deathwatch (indicated by the DW abbreviation for the purposes of this list). Xenos Squads are basically rehashed Troops choices from alien codecies such as Eldar, Kroot, Tau, etc).
Arco-flagellants
- May only be taken if your army includes at least one Priest.
0-1 Sisters Repentia (SB)

===TROOPS===
Adeptis Arbites
- Can take a certain number of Kayninez and Penal Penitents. Can only take the Penal Penitents if there is a Priest in the army though.
Grey Knights (GK)
- If a Grey Knight Hero is included in the force, any squad of Grey Knights may be upgraded to Grey Knight Terminators at a points cost. Grey Knight Terminators count as Elites choices.
Deathwatch Kill Team (DW)
- If a Deathwatch Hero is included in the force, any squad of Deathwatch Kill Teams may be upgraded to a Deathwatch Veteran Squad at a points cost. Deathwatch Veteran Squads count as Elites choices.
Battle Sisters Squad (can be upgraded to Celestian Squads) (SB)
- If an Adepta Sororitas Heroine is included in the force, any Battle Sisters Squad may be upgraded to a Celestian Squad at a points cost. Celestian Squads count as Elites choices.

===FAST ATTACK===
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
- Count as Troops choices if there is an Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord present in the army.
Grey Knight Attack Bike Squadron (GK)
Deathwatch Land Speeder Squadron (DW)
Seraphim Squad (SB)

===HEAVY SUPPORT===
Grey Knights Purgation Squad (GK)
Deathwatch Devastator Squad (DW)
Retributor Squad (SB)
Whirlwind (GK/DW)
- Can be upgraded to an Exorcist (SB).
Land Raider (GK/DW)
Land Raider Crusader (GK/DW)
Dreadnought (GK/DW)
- Can be upgraded to a Penitant Engine if there are any Priests present in the force.

===TRANSPORT===
Chimera
Rhino
Immolator (SB)
Razorback (GK/DW)

aka_mythos wrote:I think we should stay away from full scale IG units; to avoid becoming an alternative to an IG list.

If the IG are just basic Guardsmen squads and basic Russes, they won't compete with regular Guard. They won't have any of the other interesting units (Hellhounds, Basilisks, etc.)

Core units you can take irregardless of HQ:

OK, though I think this list is too limited.

If you take an Inquisitor, you then choose their ordo:
Ordo: Xenos, Malleus, Hereticus Retinues

IMO, selecting an Ordos is like Doctrines / Craftworlds / Legions / Traits. When someone says "Inquisition", that should be pretty clear to the opponent what they might be facing, and determining legality should be little more than a quick glance for a handful of units.

Your selection unlocks:
Xenos: Rogue Trader; Tech Priest; Robot Upgrade
Malleus: Daemon Host; (I think they need more units)
Hereticus: Arco-Flagellants; Priest; Penitent Engine Upgrade
Deathwatch Commander (Librarian or Captain) allows:
GK Commander:
Cannoness:

This is really 6 lists in one, and fairly difficult for the opponent to keep track of. Especially with so many sub-options.

In total 30 unit options

I think I had 27 total, of which 20 are commonly available.

Leave out basic marines, leave out Imperial Guard;

Keep in mind that I don't *have* Allies rules. They go away, because Allies is a mess which is why CSM don't mix with Daemons. The presence of Guardsmen, Russ, and Sentinel can represent an Inquisitional army with Allied Guard or a Guard army with Inquisitional Allies. But the blend is very limited. This keeps things a *lot* simpler for everyone. It removes the question of IG Doctrines, SM Traits, and non-vanilla SM entirely. Allied Guardsmen are simply generic Guardsmen, in the same way that Allied Daemons are generic Daemons.

There isn't such a thing as a generic DW tactical squad

People can model whatever they like. If they want to represent a Xenos Deathwatch force, then they can do that with Elite Kill Teams backed by basic Marines and Assault Marines.

DW should have a single terminator squads

They can, but oddly enough, the DW Termies carry large power weapons with their Storm Bolters.

If they have an assault squad it would be in the same vein as "Vanguard" marines.

The Elites are overloaded enough already.

Devastator squads,

Nah. Orbital Bombardment. The idea isn't to create full detailed armies, but to have a base of ordinary stuff that has interesting spicy stuff for HQ and Elite to give character.

Marik Law wrote:I think I have a great idea pulled from the very pages of other Imperial books. Here's my list idea...

This is perfect if GW were still doing high-detail Codices with lots of restrictions and stuff.

But it's not how GW seems to be doing things now.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Marik Law wrote:I think I have a great idea pulled from the very pages of other Imperial books. Here's my list idea...

This is perfect if GW were still doing high-detail Codices with lots of restrictions and stuff.

But it's not how GW seems to be doing things now.

Well the simple fact is the way most of us were approaching the codex is really the only worthwhile way to, and still have a good codex.
Just with the chamber militant we have 3 mini-lists representing hyper specialized forces giving 17 non-compatible units; those units wouldn't just not work together their rivalry might even make them want to bust each others heads a bit, call it ego. Then we toss in the three Ordo of the inquisition; thats even more choices. If GW make one big homogeneous codex, they have to completely ignore the inherent rivalry the is pervasive between the three Ordos. That fluff based implication make unlockables the most likely and most ideal way (so far put forth) to deal with that fact. If you make a codex with unlockable the primary consideration must be made to making individual sub-faction choices to be viable as well as combinations of sub-factions viable.

I think the Inquisition Codex here is suffering a severe split personality problem.

IMO, the rivalry between Ordos or Chambers is probably smaller than that between the Great Powers of Chaos, so a combined Inquisition Codex should be possible if a Great Chaos book exists.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think we should stay away from full scale IG units; to avoid becoming an alternative to an IG list.

If the IG are just basic Guardsmen squads and basic Russes, they won't compete with regular Guard. They won't have any of the other interesting units (Hellhounds, Basilisks, etc.)

Its a conceptual clash. If IG have a Inquisitor option to represent the an Inquisitor working closely with the IG; what exactly do we represent by having IG in an Inqusitorial force, IG working closely with an Inquisitor that would be storm troopers, an elite task force, not some cannon fodder units. Would some specialized group (CIA, FBI) ever really borrow a single tank, if there were an incident requiring that level of firepower they'd just call out the full military and not an elite strike force.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Core units you can take irregardless of HQ:

OK, though I think this list is too limited.

You have to realize that the core list is going to be supplemented by at least one other choice block of unlockable units and isn't intended to be a full army, thus it does not need to be viable unto itself.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

If you take an Inquisitor, you then choose their ordo:
Ordo: Xenos, Malleus, Hereticus Retinues

IMO, selecting an Ordos is like Doctrines / Craftworlds / Legions / Traits. When someone says "Inquisition", that should be pretty clear to the opponent what they might be facing, and determining legality should be little more than a quick glance for a handful of units.

The ordo distinction has to come into play somewhere, maybe it can be treated like chaos marks, but the fact is you have specific units tied to different sub-factions.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Your selection unlocks:
Xenos: Rogue Trader; Tech Priest; Robot Upgrade
Malleus: Daemon Host; (I think they need more units)
Hereticus: Arco-Flagellants; Priest; Penitent Engine Upgrade
Deathwatch Commander (Librarian or Captain) allows:
GK Commander:
Cannoness:

This is really 6 lists in one, and fairly difficult for the opponent to keep track of. Especially with so many sub-options.

So you ask your opponent more specifically about his list?

If you eliminate the sort of sub-selection of unlockable the inquisitor provides you make him less worthwhile relative to the SoB, GK, and DW commander selections at which point it becomes Codex: Chamber militant and not inquisition. I think you could trim down the list of units unlockable by the inquisitor to Xeno: Rogue Trader, Malleus: Daemon Host, Hereticus: Arco-Flagellants. Drop robot from list, move priest, tech priest, and penitent engine to the common list as I could see all ordos having some form of those.

It may be 6 lists but each by its self is narrowly viable. The individual inquisitor codicies were really 3 lists each: witchhunters you could go sisters of battle or Inq. with IG or Inq. with marines. Same went for GK and by extrapolation the DW, so if we get it down to 6 compared to the 9 possible lists you would've had before its a step up. I think we can probably get it down to three or four. It is important to make the Inquisitor an almost necessary choice

JohnHwangDD wrote:

In total 30 unit options

I think I had 27 total, of which 20 are commonly available.

Well marines currently have 25 unit entries and their new codex gives them some new ones; so have an unlockable structure with 30+ options but where only about 20 or so can even be accessed in a given game seems pretty fair. Too many common units there is no flavor; your codex is more an amalgamation of IG and SM with Inquisition added for flavor. The only reason GW allowed IG and non-GK SM to be taken in the codex was to give the Witchhunter and Daemonhunter codex more than one way to be a viable list. An unlockable system gives several ways, without the added IG and SM burden.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Leave out basic marines, leave out Imperial Guard;

Keep in mind that I don't *have* Allies rules. They go away, because Allies is a mess which is why CSM don't mix with Daemons. The presence of Guardsmen, Russ, and Sentinel can represent an Inquisitional army with Allied Guard or a Guard army with Inquisitional Allies. But the blend is very limited. This keeps things a *lot* simpler for everyone. It removes the question of IG Doctrines, SM Traits, and non-vanilla SM entirely. Allied Guardsmen are simply generic Guardsmen, in the same way that Allied Daemons are generic Daemons.

I don't have ally rules either, I agree they are a mess. I think it diminishes the flavor of the inquisition to have them in there. They were only ever in there to add viability to narrowly viable codex. The narrow viability was in the fact with out those options in the witchhunter and daemon hunters book you could only play one particular armylist, adding the IG and SM allowed more variation. By combining the Inquisition into one book, you alleviate the necessity for the IG and SM to be included in the codex.

Allied Guardsmen are not simply generic guardsmen. Allied guardsmen is the Codex: IG with the rumored Inquisitor option. To bring IG into Inquisition beyond stormtroopers, diminishes both, less viable IG (than IG codex) with the least viable Inquisitor. The units used by the Inquisition are suppose to comprise a specialized strike force, basic guardsmen are not elite enough and would be cannon fodder.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

There isn't such a thing as a generic DW tactical squad

People can model whatever they like. If they want to represent a Xenos Deathwatch force, then they can do that with Elite Kill Teams backed by basic Marines and Assault Marines.

Yes they can model whatever they like. My point though was that a Deathwatch Kill team (equivalent to Sternguard) are the basic troops of the Deathwatch, that even in their basic form are the most veteran of regular space marines. By that virtue a Deathwatch army should be comprised predominantly by that unit. If the Deathwatch is to stand on its own as a viable militant force its nature dictates that they would prefer not working with uninitiated space marines on their specialized missions. The backing of "basic marines and assault marines" stems from the either or option in the Deathwatch rules. The rule that allowed you instead of taking a Deathwatch kill team allowed you to take basic marines, where all your Sgt's served with the Deathwatch at one time and brought back that experience (but NOT that those squads led by those Sgt's. were in any way Deathwatch). Thus Deathwatch killteams are the back bone of the militant ordo xenos arns, not basic marines with a well to do sgt.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

DW should have a single terminator squads

They can, but oddly enough, the DW Termies carry large power weapons with their Storm Bolters.

I meant a unified terminator entry that was a combination of the tactical and assault terminator squad formations, allowing combinations of both units options in a single unit, but with the addition of combi-weapons so that they could have access to the special ammo, which Stormbolters won't in the new marine codex.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

If they have an assault squad it would be in the same vein as "Vanguard" marines.

The Elites are overloaded enough already.

That's why I said they'd be Fast Attack. In an army of elite units, the distinctions between elite FOC and other FOC is a lot slimmer.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Devastator squads,

Nah. Orbital Bombardment. The idea isn't to create full detailed armies, but to have a base of ordinary stuff that has interesting spicy stuff for HQ and Elite to give character.

I thought it was to make a full detailed army. If we expect a Codex Inquisition to equally represent all three Ordos equally the Deathwatch would need to have additional unit options to make them equally viable or else no one will ever take them. An infiltrating devastator squad with special weapons fits the bill for Deathwatch and are no more out of character than the GK purgation squads or the SoB Retributor squad.

If were going to try to make it authentic Codex worthy, it also means we have to limit ourselves to a maximum of roughly 25 unit entries (not including Transports or Special Characters). With the units currently present in Codex Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters (not including vehicles or special characters) there's 26 entries. If we want to fit in more units such as Deathwatch units were going to have to scrap some units and merge others.

That being said the big question is: Which units do we scrap, which do we merge, and which do we add?

JohnHwangDD wrote:This is really 6 lists in one, and fairly difficult for the opponent to keep track of. Especially with so many sub-options.

He really doesn't put a lot of faith in his opponents does he?

I dunno, maybe it's just me but I've never had trouble knowing what army I'm facing and no one I've played has ever had any trouble working out what I'm using.

BYE

Marik Law wrote:If were going to try to make it authentic Codex worthy, it also means we have to limit ourselves to a maximum of roughly 25 unit entries (not including Transports or Special Characters). With the units currently present in Codex Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters (not including vehicles or special characters) there's 26 entries. If we want to fit in more units such as Deathwatch units were going to have to scrap some units and merge others.

That being said the big question is: Which units do we scrap, which do we merge, and which do we add?

I understand what your saying, but one point I was trying to make was that total units isn't nearly as important as the unit you can choose from after unlocking. For example if you're playing straight up SoB, you'd have 5-6 core units to choose from and the 6 unlocked SoB units, thus the SoB player only has 12 or so units to choose from. Throw in an inquisitor you bump it up a bit. You still only have 12 or so units to choose from, the fact the book in total has 25 or 30 choices in total becomes a moot point. I am not saying we give this codex 30 units, but that its unique nature deserves some additional latitude for bleeding over any unit count.

As a guidline, marines have in total 24 units + 3 transports + 6 Special Characters. The new marine codex adds 4 new units and 7 more special characters over the current codex; Landraiders consolidated to single entry (-2), terminator squad consolidated (-1). So the new space marine codex (the model of codices for the new edition) has 25 unit entries +3 transports + 13 special characters. The special character section may be the best way to include some of the more out their units like a "Xenos mercenary squad"

A couple of things that we can probably get away with: all land raider variants in a single entry; make orbital bombardment an option for the Inquisitor or other commanders to purchase like an upgrade; Marik, your deviate unit is a good idea (as with any new unit may need some trial and error rule finagling); we already have single Inquisitor option; dreadnought and penitent engine consolidated (that creates issues with th fact the penitent engine is more like a sentinel and is in squadrons); redundant units like the SoB "Dominion Sqd" consolidate into the troop entry with "if transport taken counts as Fast Attack" added.

Core list units: Inquisitor Lord; Temple Assassins; Priests;Death Cult ;Lesser Ordo Inquisitors; Arbites or Stormtrooper; Land Raider (6 units)
Tied to Inquisitor: Marik's Deviates; Arco-Flagelant (might make sense if these were the Hereticus deviates instead of psykers; (Rogue Trader possibly, may be better as a special character) (2 Units)
SoB: Cannoness; Celestines; Battle Sisters; Seraphim; Immolators; Retributor; Excorcist (7 Units)
GK: GK Commander; GK Terminators; GK Squad; GK Purrgation Sqd; DK Dread (5 units)
DW: DW Commander; DW Terminators; DW Killteam; (Only two of the following: DW Assault Sqd or DW Devastor Sqd or Land Speeder) (5 Units)

That makes 25 units. If wiggle room is allowed insert Sister Repentia to SoB making the total 26.

Dedicated Transports: Chimera; Rhino; (maybe Razorback maybe not)

Witch Hunter Special Characters (2):
Inq Lord Karamazov
St. Celestine

Daemonhunters (2):
Inq. Lord Coteaz
Brother Captain Stern

Alien Hunters (3):
(An Adeptus Mechanicus character who goes collecting alien tech)
(A Deathwatch Captain, maybe some sort of background where his chapter was wiped out so he is permanently Deathwatch)
Inq. Lord Cryptman (has pet tyranids)?

Available to all (3):
(an inquisitor lord who often works with multiple ordos allowing ordo cooperation)
(Rogue Trader)
(an Inquisitor of one of the minor Ordos giving him a uniqueness compared to other inquisitors)

Total Special Characters: 10

So far this make our codex Inquisition have 25 (maybe 26) units + 2 (maybe 3) transports + 10 Special Characters.

Marik Law wrote:I think I have a great idea pulled from the very pages of other Imperial books. Here's my list idea...

Wow.

I think you have single-handedly cured my rules-writers block that I've been having with our Codex: Inquisition. Your proposed list of items/unit choices is great. It's simple, but it works perfectly.

Thank you for the inspiration.

BYE

aka_mythos wrote

Just with the chamber militant we have 3 mini-lists representing hyper specialized forces giving 17 non-compatible units; those units wouldn't just not work together their rivalry might even make them want to bust each others heads a bit, call it ego. Then we toss in the three Ordo of the inquisition; thats even more choices. If GW make one big homogeneous codex, they have to completely ignore the inherent rivalry the is pervasive between the three Ordos. That fluff based implication make unlockables the most likely and most ideal way (so far put forth) to deal with that fact. If you make a codex with unlockable the primary consideration must be made to making individual sub-faction choices to be viable as well as combinations of sub-factions viable.

I think the Inquisition Codex here is suffering a severe split personality problem.

Whilst I agree absolutely with this, I can't help but be reminded of every piece of fluff ever written back in the good old Realm of Chaos days.
'Tzeentch will not ally with Nurgle (and Khorne will not ally with Slaanesh). Ever. Under any circumstances. They will not fight side by side, only with each other - because they hate each other that much.'
Rules specifically forbade Chaos armies from having these combinations. All the most recent Chaos publications are 'Yes, Chaos is one big happy family where Plaguebearers will cheerfully be led into battle by Lord's of Change, and Fiends have races with Juggernauts to see who can be the first score 10 kills, loser buys the beer!'

GW is not willing to place any restrictions on army lists based on fluff. If they ever produce a unified Inquisition codex you will be able to take everything in any combination you want.

We can only hope they change their design philosophy in the next 10 years, so when they finally do a re-write it will be a good one!!

Chimera_Calvin wrote:

aka_mythos wrote

Just with the chamber militant we have 3 mini-lists representing hyper specialized forces giving 17 non-compatible units; those units wouldn't just not work together their rivalry might even make them want to bust each others heads a bit, call it ego. Then we toss in the three Ordo of the inquisition; thats even more choices. If GW make one big homogeneous codex, they have to completely ignore the inherent rivalry the is pervasive between the three Ordos. That fluff based implication make unlockables the most likely and most ideal way (so far put forth) to deal with that fact. If you make a codex with unlockable the primary consideration must be made to making individual sub-faction choices to be viable as well as combinations of sub-factions viable.

I think the Inquisition Codex here is suffering a severe split personality problem.

Whilst I agree absolutely with this, I can't help but be reminded of every piece of fluff ever written back in the good old Realm of Chaos days.
'Tzeentch will not ally with Nurgle (and Khorne will not ally with Slaanesh). Ever. Under any circumstances. They will not fight side by side, only with each other - because they hate each other that much.'
Rules specifically forbade Chaos armies from having these combinations. All the most recent Chaos publications are 'Yes, Chaos is one big happy family where Plaguebearers will cheerfully be led into battle by Lord's of Change, and Fiends have races with Juggernauts to see who can be the first score 10 kills, loser buys the beer!'
GW is not willing to place any restrictions on army lists based on fluff. If they ever produce a unified Inquisition codex you will be able to take everything in any combination you want.
We can only hope they change their design philosophy in the next 10 years, so when they finally do a re-write it will be a good one!!

Well if you look at the proposed codex it does not actually prevent someone from having a mix of ordos; a player if insistent is just limited to two ordos at a given time in a given army list. So you can mix armies, there is just a check in place, makes you pay the premium of a second HQ to gain access; whole concept of unlockables.

The design philosophy you speak of wouldn't really work here; chaos could get away with it cause its chaos; the inquisition follows a stricter organization. It is a hyper-sense of ideology that defines the ordos, dividing them by what they each perceive is the biggest threat. So while they will work together they are still restricted by their hierarchies. Thus the unlocking system with HQ purchase.

aka_mythos wrote:Well if you look at the proposed codex it does not actually prevent someone from having a mix of ordos; a player if insistent is just limited to two ordos at a given time in a given army list. So you can mix armies, there is just a check in place, makes you pay the premium of a second HQ to gain access; whole concept of unlockables.

The design philosophy you speak of wouldn't really work here; chaos could get away with it cause its chaos; the inquisition follows a stricter organization. It is a hyper-sense of ideology that defines the ordos, dividing them by what they each perceive is the biggest threat. So while they will work together they are still restricted by their hierarchies. Thus the unlocking system with HQ purchase.

I don't think that is a very good argument. By and large, the Inquisition has the same goals to preserve Humanity, they just differ in the tools and methods. Kind of like arguing whether it's better to use epoxy or superglue, and whether pinning is required. Details.

Chaos has goals that ultimately conflict - Nurgle has no intent to share with Tzeentch, nor Slannesh with Khorne. Ultimately, they want to be selfish as the sole winner. They only agree on intermediate steps, such as razing Cadia and killing the Emperor.

In any case, going with what is largely an open approach is easier and simply places the Fluff in the hands of the player. It is easier not to create the restriction and then to let the player place their own restrictions or themes on their army.

For example, if I want to play Inquisition "counts as" Ad Mech, using my list, I can do that pretty easily. But with all of the unlocking rules, I'd really be stuck with a much narrower selection of choices imposed by the list creator. In other words, unless there is a balance problem, it's better to simply allow the player to create the army, rather than tell the army what they can take.

I don't think "count as" armies should be a priotity of a codex build.

When I say chaos is chaos, the fact that their army list is open and units that would be unlikely to cooperate with each other are in the same list was intended by the codex writer to convey the chaotic nature of a military force held together by the constant self motivated ambition of different individuals.

An open codex would create redundancy by creating a lot of units that would come into conflict; why take a purgation squad when a DW devastator squad fills the same role better; also that opens up people to taking commanders that don't correspond to their army, you could have the only sister of battle or witch hunter in the entire army be a Heroine and the rest be whatever else and that wouldn't make to much sense.

The Inquisition army is an army of specialist elites, tasked with fighting specific enemies. In practical terms those sort of elite forces don't want to operate with forces that operate in a contrary way. With an open codex you open up the strong and very likely possibility that people will pick out only the best units from the list without taking any of the downsides associated with a particular Ordo. GK hard hitting but high cost, lack of heavy weapons. SoB cheaper units with lower WS, S, T with limited heavy weapons. DW specialized ammo providing average troops with weapons equivalent to special weapons; can infiltrate; high cost; limited vehicle support.

With an open non-fluff codex we could remove half the choices available keeping only the choice options that everyone will take removing the clearly inferior ones.

aka_mythos wrote:I don't think "count as" armies should be a priotity of a codex build.

An open codex would create redundancy

The Inquisition army is an army of specialist elites, tasked with fighting specific enemies.

With an open non-fluff codex we could remove half the choices available keeping only the choice options that everyone will take removing the clearly inferior ones.

Counts as isn't a priority except in terms of the basic philosophy of letting the player decide.

I'm willing to accept a little redunancy, as it's OK to have a little competition. For reference, go look at my version. How much redundancy is there? And how much problem is there with it if one is building a 1500-pt list with a standard FOC?

I have a ton of Elites in my list, and a bunch of mostly generics elsewhere. No problem or disagreement.

Powergamer players will do that anyways, so what should it matter? When Chaos had 1 list per Legion, players gravitated to a mere 3 lists (Iron Warriors, Daemonbomb, and Infiltrators). And if you look at CSM right now, it appears that GW got 80 to 90% of the list correct (only 3 problem units by consensus). That's a much better ratio compared to what came before (only 3 viable builds by consensus).

An open list only needs to balance the one list. With your unlocking, you need to balance 6 solo lists, along with 30 dual-combination lists, *and* make them all equally playable and attractive. Most likely, with the unlocking business, there will be one dominant mono build, 2 good blends, and nothing else played. So over half the work is wasted making units and options that don't ever get used.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I don't think "count as" armies should be a priotity of a codex build.

An open codex would create redundancy by creating a lot of units that would come into conflict; why take a purgation squad when a DW devastator squad fills the same role better; also that opens up people to taking commanders that don't correspond to their army, you could have the only sister of battle or witch hunter in the entire army be a Heroine and the rest be whatever else and that wouldn't make to much sense.

The Inquisition army is an army of specialist elites, tasked with fighting specific enemies. In practical terms those sort of elite forces don't want to operate with forces that operate in a contrary way. With an open codex you open up the strong and very likely possibility that people will pick out only the best units from the list without taking any of the downsides associated with a particular Ordo. GK hard hitting but high cost, lack of heavy weapons. SoB cheaper units with lower WS, S, T with limited heavy weapons. DW specialized ammo providing average troops with weapons equivalent to special weapons; can infiltrate; high cost; limited vehicle support.

With an open non-fluff codex we could remove half the choices available keeping only the choice options that everyone will take removing the clearly inferior ones.

Counts as isn't a priority except in terms of the basic philosophy of letting the player decide.

The definition of "count as" codex play maybe a little different for you than for me. "Count as" is when you use the rule of a codex book to represent an army other than the fluff or title entails. This could be as minor as a Dark Angel player using the core space marine book or as major as standing in a squat army by using a marine or IG codex. So my point is you can't plan a codex around what people may do that goes beyond the core concept of a codex; you know they will but you don't compromise a codex's integrity for it. The extent of letting players decide comes into play in the way I've laid out the codex by allowing them to decide either to have a pure chamber militant force, a chamber militant force tied to an inquisitor, or two chamber militant forces working in conjunction.

JohnHwangDD wrote: I'm willing to accept a little redunancy, as it's OK to have a little competition. For reference, go look at my version. How much redundancy is there? And how much problem is there with it if one is building a 1500-pt list with a standard FOC?

I have a ton of Elites in my list, and a bunch of mostly generics elsewhere. No problem or disagreement.

You've stripped all uniqueness and spirit from the branches of the inquisition. You removed too much of the character from this army. The inquisition can stand on its own without the inclusion of the number of non-inquisition units you have included. You've eliminated redundancy by eliminating flavorful units; I've eliminated redundancy by adding structure. Given the two choices I take allowing people more units to choose from even if they don't get access to all units.

When I say elite specialized task force that doesn't mean it has a lot of elite units to choose from. It means every time an ordo of the inquisition mobilizes to fight it is against a specific enemy: alien, psychic, daemonic (the same way US Delta Force is used in counter-terrorist and rescue missions). A open codex removes any sense that this sort of specialized force is even necessary. With all the threats to the imperium it would be a waste to send specialized troops on a mission other than the one they're intended for. Inquisition armies are basically an army of head hunters going after a very particular target; so while multiple chamber militants would be in a given theater of war it would be very rare that they'd have the same target and decide to attack it using a compatible approach.

Also your codex lacks thought as far as representing the Ordo Xenos; I know its the vaguest established and hardest to make up as it has no pre-established units beyond the DW kill team, but there would undoubtedly be more than just DW kill teams.

My design philosophy is that the fluff should come first and be a basis for a codex's rules, use rules to balance fluff. Your approach to codex building is rules first holistic balance irregardless of fluff, fluff be damned.

JohnHwangDD wrote: Powergamer players will do that anyways, so what should it matter? When Chaos had 1 list per Legion, players gravitated to a mere 3 lists (Iron Warriors, Daemonbomb, and Infiltrators). And if you look at CSM right now, it appears that GW got 80 to 90% of the list correct (only 3 problem units by consensus). That's a much better ratio compared to what came before (only 3 viable builds by consensus).

An open list only needs to balance the one list. With your unlocking, you need to balance 6 solo lists, along with 30 dual-combination lists, *and* make them all equally playable and attractive. Most likely, with the unlocking business, there will be one dominant mono build, 2 good blends, and nothing else played. So over half the work is wasted making units and options that don't ever get used.

Just because powergamers will do their best to find an undue advantage does not mean you don't make an attempt to curtail it. When Chaos had that list I played a Bezerkers army and a Noise Marine Army and I still won; I have little pitty for the unimaginative powergamers driven to win in a way that shortly and surely saps the game of fun.

I've gotten the list down to 26 units. If you make the list balanced as a single list the fluffish bookends structure separating each Ordo won't impede that balance when you sub-divide the list. It may harm viability, but that is where one tweaks units to compensate.

Have you read my updated list? I read your list. I reduced the distinctions on the Inquisitor making him a unit that no longer has as grand an impact on the army as a whole; he only impacts one other unit now. I don't understand where you get 30 list combinations from. I get 8 combinations, inquisitor and generic troops always available, SoB+Inq. DW+Inq, GK+Inq, SoB+GK, Sob+DW, GK+DW (I don't count GK, SoB, or DW by themselves because you can always take the standard inquisition units and inquisitor, whether you choose to or not is your own prerogative). I originally wanted to exclude mixing Chamber Millitants, which would have brought it down to 4 combinations, you objected at that being too restrictive and I agreed on the basis that flexibilty should be included to represent the very rare cases of cooperation. 4, 8, 30 combinations if the units are fair for their point value the army will be balanced.

The viability of combination unlockable armylist need only be made by providing at least one basic option available to the whole army in each FOC and to each chamber militant.

@aka_mythos

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear, I wasn't meaning that you *should* have a single list with everything in (quite the oppposite, in fact - I agree with you on the whole 'unlocking' thing )

What I was saying was that if/when GW write Codex:Inquisition, they'll do what they did with chaos and make one list that lets you take everything.
It throws out all the fluff in favour of letting people do what they want.

The issue I have with this is that with Chaos, its virtually impossible to have a competetive single-power build (for either CSM or Daemons). I worry that when they do Inquisition, my Sisters/Witchhunters will be totally nerfed unless I do some weird power combos with different Ordos.


My preference would be for 4 lists in the book. One for each Chamber Militant (with the priests/arco-flags/pen engines included as SoB options) and an Inquisition list with Inquisitors, Assassins, Stormtroopers, Arbites and a 'special option' elites choice based on the Ordo of the Inquisitor (Daemonhosts, Xenos Scouts, or Rogue Psykers).

After picking your Ordo, you could then chose from the Inquistion list and the appropriate Chamber Militant list (unless you picked the special elites).

In effect, the lists would function exactly as the present, seperate Codices do, but with everything updated and compiled into one book.

* I think Kid-Kyoto's is still the most representative of an Inquisitorial Army. The different 'paths' based on your HQ makes a lot of sense.
* All the other 'counts as' lists, ideas about 'upgrading' dreadnoughts into penitent engines etc, make things confusing.
* The 'number of units' issue is a moot point as, aka_mythos points out, the finished army would have a very resonable unit selection.
* Games Workshop are moving away from systems like 'Traits' to customise an army. They tend to prefer rules that say 'IF you take this HQ, you can take these squads' nowadays. So I'd say no to Hereticus/Xenos/Malleus specialisations for the Inquisitors - the way you represent this is by choosing a Grey Knight/Sisters/Deathwatch HQ unit.
* I agree we should cut out Allied SMs and IG. This thing can be represented by taking an Inquisitor, and limited other units, in your IG or SM army. Maybe SM and IG armies can include 1 HQ, 1 Elite and 2 Troops from any one of the 'paths'
* I think Assassins should be contained to the Inquisitor path
* Deathwatch, by their fluff, are a single, elite sort of unit. I could see a reason for a hvy weapon squad, or an assault sqd, but not much more than that.

I would, however, cut down the options in Kid_Kyoto's list. It's extremely unlikely that we will see Rogue Traders & Alien Squads, never mind Ad.Mech, Robots and some of the other crazy things people have suggested. So the list would be more like

HQ - GK Master
Elite - GK terminators
Troops - GK squads and varients
Heavy - GK dread and land raiders

HQ - Cannoness
Elite - Celsetines
Troops - Battle sisters
Fast - Seraphim
Heavy - Retributor
Heavy - Exorcist

HQ - Inquisitor
Elite - Interrogator (less powerful inquisitor - this is supported fluff-wise by many of the BL Ravenor/Eisenhorn books)
Elite - Assassins
Elite - Death cultists
Elite - Daemon Hosts
Troops - Inquisition Storm troops

HQ - Priest
Troops - Zealots
Fast - Arco-Flagellants
Heavy - Penitant Engine

HQ - Death Watch Commander
Elite - Death watch Assault/heavy?
Troops - Death Watch

(and I REALLY doubt this will happen, but)
HQ - Arbites General
Elite - Arbites with mauls/supression shields
Troops - Arbites with shot guns/boltguns

Special Characters
Hereticus Inquistor
Malleus Inquisitor
Xenos Inquisitor
Alien Squad
Rogue Trader
Arbitor Judge (only way you can take Arbites??)

Chimera_Calvin wrote:@aka_mythos
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear, I wasn't meaning that you *should* have a single list with everything in (quite the oppposite, in fact - I agree with you on the whole 'unlocking' thing )

What I was saying was that if/when GW write Codex:Inquisition, they'll do what they did with chaos and make one list that lets you take everything.
It throws out all the fluff in favour of letting people do what they want.

The issue I have with this is that with Chaos, its virtually impossible to have a competetive single-power build (for either CSM or Daemons). I worry that when they do Inquisition, my Sisters/Witchhunters will be totally nerfed unless I do some weird power combos with different Ordos.

I really hated what they did with chaos, my armies are shelved. I agree, with single unified lists you are more inclined to have to power build, but when the army is powerbuilt off a single unified list its going to create some big holes for fighting specific armies.

The 4 list approach I think works for the inquisition because unlike chaos by choosing a particular faction you end up making trade offs where you get their benefits and their downsides. In a combination list you might be able to mitigate it, though to what degree should be restricted. The unfair problem with 4th ed Chaos codex, with separate legion rules, it effectively added 7 or 8 extra units, one or so to each legion. That extra unit wasn't a fault but the number of legions while fluffy were excessive causing an option overload. 4 small core variations to unit choices is not by any means going to do the same.

The only conceivable way to unify all the lists into an locked single list, is if they keep DW a single choice, return GK to a single unit, make SoB a single unit that are each overpowered elites that don't have specific corresponding troop components. That would make every, GK and SoB player annoyed. GW appears to be insistent on not removing units or eliminating armies a consolidation by any other means than a 4 list in one system would effectively do both. There in lie my worries but also why I believe GW won't take a single core list approach; that approach would require they toss out a number of units that already have models and that at best would bring in units from the IG and SM (something I think ridiculous).

The big question becomes: Do you make the list GW would make or the list people would want to play?

Chimera_Calvin wrote:My preference would be for 4 lists in the book. One for each Chamber Militant (with the priests/arco-flags/pen engines included as SoB options) and an Inquisition list with Inquisitors, Assassins, Stormtroopers, Arbites and a 'special option' elites choice based on the Ordo of the Inquisitor (Daemonhosts, Xenos Scouts, or Rogue Psykers).

After picking your Ordo, you could then chose from the Inquistion list and the appropriate Chamber Militant list (unless you picked the special elites).

In effect, the lists would function exactly as the present, seperate Codices do, but with everything updated and compiled into one book.

Yay, someone gets it. Thats what I was trying to do.

I think by tying in the 'special option' elite into the inquisitor it gives it the permission to be more deadly or extra unorthodox, than those units current incarnations are. Still think archo-flagelants if tweaked could be the 'special option' for Ordo Hereticus.

I think the biggest reason we're more likely to see a codex with semi-separate army lists is because unlike chaos, theres is no one all unifying Unit and box set that is distinctively Inquisition that would work with all chamber militant. All chaos armies need a box of "Chaos Space Marines" not all inquisition armies are not gonna contain GK, SoB, or DW. So unless GW shifts their emphasis of this army away from the chamber militant, the Codex: Inquisition will likely retain some separation between Ordos.

aka_mythos wrote:The big question becomes: Do you make the list GW would make or the list people would want to play?

The answer to that is easy: The one that people would want to play.

This is a proposed rules forum, not a 'what do we think GW will do with this' forum. So you can either take the approach John takes and try to make a list that allows for 'counts as' and compensates for bad players and power gamers (ie. the exact opposite of how you design a Codex - seriously, who includes the posibility for 'counts as' lists in their design goals?), or you make a list that fits with the fluff and contains a useful selection of units that allow for variety, fun, modelling opportunities and in-game power - hopefully striking a balance that allows all units to be both fluffy and useful at the same time.

GW has failed at this every opportunity, party because they have no single vision and they're a bunch of people all designing things for themselves, and partly because, due to business reasons, they have to make newer models better and older models less competative, so as to drive sales. However we have no such constraints, and as this is a proposed rules forum, we should do just that - propose rules and not second guess what GW might do.

BYE

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I'm willing to accept a little redunancy, as it's OK to have a little competition. For reference, go look at my version.

You've stripped all uniqueness and spirit from the branches of the inquisition.

My design philosophy is that the fluff should come first and be a basis for a codex's rules, use rules to balance fluff. Your approach to codex building is rules first holistic balance irregardless of fluff, fluff be damned.

JohnHwangDD wrote:An open list only needs to balance the one list. With your unlocking, you need to balance 6 solo lists, along with 30 dual-combination lists, *and* make them all equally playable and attractive.

I don't understand where you get 30 list combinations from.

As I noted before, this is like CSM 4 Legions vs "unified" CSM 5. You guys are going for what amounts to Legions lists, as you wish GW would have done things at the height of the detailed Codex period. I am going for a unified Codex, as I expect GW will do things with the streamlined Codices. This is a fundamental philosophical disagreement that cannot be reconciled, but will make itself clear when / if GW finally gets around to doing the (unified) Inquisition Codex.

At this point, I no longer care about the Fluff details per se. GW has revised and reversed their Fluff so many times, it can largely be ignored except as broad inspiration. That is, GW places the Fluff details subordinate to whatever rules strike their fancy at any given point in time.

For my 30 combinations, I count each Ordo (Malleus, Hereticus, Xenos) separately, and look at the various primary / secondary options:
- Malleus primary; hereticus / xenos / greyknights / sisters / deathwatch secondary
- Hereticus primary; malleus / xenos / greyknights / sisters / deathwatch secondary
and so on down the line.

And FWIW, I see a lot of GW-ish "we know better than you do" in this whole locked list business. If GW can let things open up, you should, too.
____

aka_mythos wrote:
I really hated what they did with chaos, my armies are shelved.

The big question becomes: Do you make the list GW would make or the list people would want to play?

I think the biggest reason we're more likely to see a codex with semi-separate army lists is because unlike chaos, theres is no one all unifying Unit and box set that is distinctively Inquisition that would work with all chamber militant. All chaos armies need a box of "Chaos Space Marines"

And I loved it. I'm finally restarting Chaos, because I can build the army that I want to build, and make it competitive. Rather than having to pick one of GW's armies and choose between having it be competitive (e.g. Iron Warriors) or enjoyable (i.e. vanilla).

Given that I didn't want to play GW's Legions, and want to play the new Chaos, the answer is pretty clear for me.

That's kind of an interesting argument, as GW can easily change things to require all Inquisition forces to take the new plastic Inquisitional Stormtroopers as Troops...

As a codex build you got to stay true to the core concept. I don't believe John's list does. If you want to play a count as army using a non-GW built list why not just make another list for that other army, the way you want it.

John has said that his list is built around the concepts "like the current Chaos Marine Codex," stating his intent to build what is effectively a codex modeled after a flawed GW codex. So why are we going down a road that almost everyone knows is wrong, by imitating that codex?

I personally feel large aspect of the current codex are spot on, but to homogenize the list as was done with the chaos space marines throws half of the good out the window and the only thing gained is the fact that you can now do something very much out of character, mixing and matching intrinsically dissimilar and unassociated units. It makes as much sense as giving space marines the option to take guardsmen.

Its also important to realize where Chaos Space Marines was one book and always has through every incarnation the inquisition will not have been. A combined list that throws out half the units disassociates the majority of people using it.

That diametric issue at hand: Are the gains of a mix and match list going to out way the losses of the abilities each army had separately? Are Inquisitor Armies on a whole more Delta Force or more G.I. JOE, specialized or jacks of all trades masters of none? Which seems more in character to the ordos?

JohnHwangDD wrote:At this point, I no longer care about the Fluff details per se. GW has revised and reversed their Fluff so many times, it can largely be ignored except as broad inspiration. That is, GW places the Fluff details subordinate to whatever rules strike their fancy at any given point in time.

For my 30 combinations, I count each Ordo (Malleus, Hereticus, Xenos) separately, and look at the various primary / secondary options:
- Malleus primary; hereticus / xenos / greyknights / sisters / deathwatch secondary
- Hereticus primary; malleus / xenos / greyknights / sisters / deathwatch secondary
and so on down the line.

And FWIW, I see a lot of GW-ish "we know better than you do" in this whole locked list business. If GW can let things open up, you should, too.

The fluff for the Inquisition has remained pretty consistent. When GW wrote the "Inquisitor" game they spent alot of time establishing the fluff for the Inquisition, it has remained consistent since then and that game was the impetus for the Inquisition codices. Fluff motivates structure and form, rules balance that out.

The thing is you seem to have the mind set of following GW by following the flawed concepts of the Chaos Space Marine Codex, that only lets you play renegade marines, pirate groups and not so much the ominous darkness spewing from the eye of terror.


You analysis of 30 combinations isn't fair. Like I said, my list is set with the inquisitor only impacting one other unit "Deviates" beyond that they don't impact the army.

-A person can always take the core units of the Inquisition, attempting to play without chamber millitants (1 Combo). Changing inquisitors Ordo does NOT impact the army just one of the core units upgrade.

-Choosing to play with a Chamber militant (DW+Inq, GK+Inq, SoB+Inq) does not preclude or prevent a person from taking core units, choosing a chamber militant adds to the core list without restrictions (3 Combos). Choosing to play as a pure chamber militant becomes a decision made by the player that may choose to use as little of the core list as they choose, but this means balancing is done with the intention that the Chamber Militant use some even if only a few of the core units (thus an army fielding just from the 4 or 5 Chamber Militant specific unlockables, isn't intended to be viable by themselves).

-A player may choose to play as two ordos working in conjunction (Inq+SoB+GK, Inq+Sob+DW, Inq+GK+DW) (3 Combos)

7 basic combos configurations. Having an inquisitor that modifies a single unit entry does not 30 combinations make. Extra attention can be given to that single unit, balancing them point wise, but to say that a limited elite choice (probably 0-1 or 0-2) is going to create that many combinations that will each independent of each other require balancing, is pure unadulterated hyperbole.

aka_mythos wrote:John has said that his list is built around the concepts "like the current Chaos Marine Codex," stating his intent to build what is effectively a codex modeled after a flawed GW codex. So why are we going down a road that almost everyone knows is wrong, by imitating that codex?

IMO, the fundamental flaw in the reasoning is the idea that the new Chaos book is "flawed".

You can do a lot more interesting things with the new Chaos book, and nothing stops a player from fielding a tightly-themed mono-Power force. Similarly, a combined Inquisition book would open more options, while not denying any player from fielding a "pure" Ordo / Chamber force.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:John has said that his list is built around the concepts "like the current Chaos Marine Codex," stating his intent to build what is effectively a codex modeled after a flawed GW codex. So why are we going down a road that almost everyone knows is wrong, by imitating that codex?

IMO, the fundamental flaw in the reasoning is the idea that the new Chaos book is "flawed".

You can do a lot more interesting things with the new Chaos book, and nothing stops a player from fielding a tightly-themed mono-Power force. Similarly, a combined Inquisition book would open more options, while not denying any player from fielding a "pure" Ordo / Chamber force.

Once again the inquisition is a tightly structured force specialized force of semi-limited resources. There are more than 1,000,000 Chaos Marines in the galaxy. There are 1000 Grey Knights, there are in the 100,000's of SoB, and there are 1000 Deathwatch. Each deals with a specific tinge of Chaos, acting on the battle field, amongst all the other imperial armies, as the headhunters going after a specific type of Chaos, mixing them and co-mingling them would create a scenario of diminished returns where bout the sum of the units is less than the components. Codex Chaos Represent 1000's of battle groups, the inquisition is 10 or so GK groups, 100 or so SoB groups, and 100 DW kill teams.

A mono-themes power force in the Chaos Space Marine Codex is basic Chaos Space Marines with little chaos mark given out like certificates of participation. Plague marine, Khorne Bezerkers, Noise Marines, and Thousand Sons can no longer be played as the primary component of those forces. No more thought was given to the 10,000 or so Khorne Bezerkers as was to a terminator. They are just another unit now. So if you want to see what happen to those armies when they were downgraded by the new codex then the same approach can be taken for the Inquisition. Otherwise the insistence of downgrading two armies currently fully supported independent forces down to mere combat force elements are going to ruin two standing armies. The key difference between Chaos Space Marines and the Inquisition, those chaos force have always been sub-codex lists in a single book, they never had independent army books. You'd be bringing the Inquisition down from their positions of being elite special forces just to do some "more interesting things."

I'd like to hear what Kid_Kyoto thinks of some of the ideas banged around, this is ultimately his personal project.

Updated my list to trim, merge, and cut down some other units. Sitting pretty at 25 unit entries at the moment (not including transports or special characters):


===HQ===
0-1 Inquisitor
0-1 Grey Knight Hero
0-1 Deathwatch Hero
0-1 Battle Sister Heroine
0-5 Priests
- Do not take up a slot on the force organization chart.

===ELITES===
Interrogator
Assassin
- Must have an Interrogator or Inquisitor present in your army to use.
Death-cult Assassin
- Must have an Inquisitor present in your army to use.
0-1 Radical Squad
- Must have an Inquisitor present in your army to use.
- Daemonhosts: Requires your Inquisitor Lord to have Seal of the Daemonhunter. If you
take Daemonhosts you may not take any Grey Knight units.
- Alpha Psykers: Requires your Inquisitor Lord to have Seal of the Witch Hunter. If you
take Alpha Psykers you may not take any Battle Sister units.
- Xenos Squad: Requires your Inquisitor Lord to have Seal of the Alien Hunter. If you
take a Xenos Squad you may not take any Deathwatch units.
Grey Knights
- Count as Troops if you have a Grey Knight Hero in your army.
- If you have a Grey Knight Hero in your army, you may upgrade squads of Grey Knights
to Grey Knight Purgation Squads. These squads count as Heavy Support choices.[/i]
Grey Knight Veterans
- Cannot be taken unless you have a Grey Knight Hero in your army.
- May be upgraded to Grey Knight Terminators.
Deathwatch Kill Team
- Count as Troops if you have a Deathwatch Hero in your army.
- If you have a Deathwatch Hero in your army, you may upgrade squads of Deathwatch
Kill Teams to Deathwatch Annihilus Squads. These squads count as Heavy Support
choices.
Deathwatch Veterans
- Cannot be taken unless you have a Deathwatch Hero in your army.
- May be upgraded to Deathwatch Terminators.
Battle Sisters
- Count as Troops if you have a Battle Sister Heroine in your army.
- If you have a Battle Sister Heroine in your army, you may upgrade squads of Battle
Sisters to Battle Sister Retributors. These squads count as Heavy Support choices.
Battle Sister Celestines
- Cannot be taken unless you have a Battle Sister Heroine in your army.
- May be upgraded to Battle Sister Seraphims.

===TROOPS===
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers

===FAST ATTACK===
Arco-flagellants
- May only be taken if you have a Priest present in the army.
Sisters Repentia
- May only be taken if you have a Battle Sister Heroine in the army.

===HEAVY SUPPORT===
0-1 Orbital Strike
- May only be taken if you have an Inquisitor Lord in the army.
Penitent Engine
- May only be taken if you have a Priest present in the army.
Dreadnought
- May only be taken if you have a Grey Knight Hero or Deathwatch Hero in your army.
Land Raider
- May only be taken if you have a Grey Knight Hero or Deathwatch Hero in your army.
Land Raider Crusader
- May only be taken if you have a Grey Knight Hero or Deathwatch Hero in your army.
Immolator
- May only be taken if you have a Battle Sister Heroine in your army.
Exorcist
- May only be taken if you have a Battle Sister Heroine in your army.




EDIT: I also had another idea that was fairly Chaos Mark-esque (called Seals). Basically an Inquisitor could take a Seal and have access to certain units. For example, if an Inquisitor took a Seal of the Daemonhunter he could take Grey Knights as Troops and upgrade them for Purgation Squads, but would still not be able to take the Veterans/Terminators.

I like your list Marik, I think its a good middle ground approach. Allows basic mixing, but not full blown open list.

I like the idea of the Ordo-mark, giving an increased though limited access to basic chamber militant units is good, but I think the upgrade should be limited only to the troop and not the upgraded squad. One squad is an Inquisitor getting assistance, two different squads and you'd have mission force that would demand a commander within their direct chain of command to coordinate.

I think ordo-marks or seals should just give the inquisitor an his retinue the appropriate "preferred enemy" enemy rule, I also think that with each of the Witchhunter and Daemonhunter Codex the retinue has a couple of distinctive entries, those should also be tied to the Ordo seal.

Another note you'd want to add is that, if the troop choice units take transports they are considered fast attack. Otherwise you may want to consider some addition to the list.

I said this before and you may want to consider it, to free up the FOC: in the new space marine codex, the commander gets the "Orbital Strike" as an ability that doesn't require any upgrade. It might be an idea to do something similar; also in the new codex the Land Raider Crusader, the Land Raider Redeemer (which I think makes sense for inquisition), and the basic land raider are all one entry, where the two variants are now upgrades and the pintel mounted multi-melta is available to all three.

I think the land raider should be generally accessible to an inquisitor. Otherwise something other than "Orbital Strike" may be needed
Making orbital strike a power of the inquisitor and not on the FOC maybe enough of a trade off to to the Chamber Militant heroes, I have the concern that the Inquisitor may not be taken if the benefits to taking two Chamber militant heroes exceed what he brings.

One thought I have is with a mixed list how do the different special rules come into play? I think there might be a bit of special rules over load for a mixed list containing DW,GK,and SoB; each requires a full page of special rules in their current form.
What are your thoughts on the different "special rules" for GK and SoB that appear in their codices?
Do you think they should remain as is? If so what new can DW bring in the same vein?
If you think they should change how would you?

Tacobake wrote:How about this.

Elite Inquisitor is just an 'Inquisitor'. Or Junior Inquisitor. You can make him something specific fluff-wise if you want.

Troop:
GK, Battle Sisters and Storm Troopers always available. It is up to you to define fluff why they would be fighting together. You can do it now using allies anyway.

After that you need HQ choices or Elite Inquisitor wargear to requisition units. Including Heavy Support. Also, maybe tie GK dreads to # of GK squads to provide anti-tank. Ditto LR.

IMHO, Inquisitors and Stormtroopers should always be available, Dethwatch, Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle should be pick one or the other, but not two or all three at once. Taking GK means no DW, taking SoB means no GK etc. Inducted troops should always be available at current Codex Ordo Malleus/Hereticus levels, without requiring HQs. Having certain HQ choices unlock certain other choices is a good idea, but GK, DW and SoB should all be line-troops, and you would decide if your force was Ordo Xenos, Maleus or Hereticus by picking on of hose three options.


Personally, I think making one Inquisition Codex is a bad idea, as you will either have to have way to much going on or else leave incredibly characterful and cool units behind to make the list more manageable.

If that's the only way you are getting a new Inquisition Codex it's better than nothing, but mashing them all together is pretty lame. That's why I made the suggestions I did, to try and maintain something of a uniqueness to the three Ordos instead of making them all more bland to work together better.

It's a pretty tough call, because looking at it from a developer's perspective, you want people to have a reason to take the models you are trying to sell, and if all these options are in one Codex, you have to make sure there is incentive to keep certain ranges selling. For example, the Witch Hunters are an entirely Anti-Psychic force, in theory. But when is that going to be more useful than either Anti-Chaos or Anti-Alien? So you would have to either tie a few choices to the Ordo Hereticus tree in order to make them more appealing, or just hope people are attracted enough to the background and models to take Ordo Hereticus forces.

Or, just mash them all together in a big cheesy mess that really doesn't fit in with the character or background of the forces, but which will guarantee model sales and up combat effectiveness enough to make people complain and buy simultaneously, but not enough to guarantee balance and long-term effectiveness. Not that GW would ever do something like that...

Marik Law wrote:Updated my list to trim, merge, and cut down some other units. Sitting pretty at 25 unit entries at the moment (not including transports or special characters):


===HQ===
0-1 Inquisitor
0-1 Grey Knight Hero
0-1 Deathwatch Hero
0-1 Battle Sister Heroine
0-5 Priests
- Do not take up a slot on the force organization chart.

===ELITES===
Interrogator
Assassin
- Must have an Interrogator or Inquisitor present in your army to use.
Death-cult Assassin
- Must have an Inquisitor present in your army to use.
0-1 Radical Squad
- Must have an Inquisitor present in your army to use.
- Daemonhosts: Requires your Inquisitor Lord to have Seal of the Daemonhunter. If you
take Daemonhosts you may not take any Grey Knight units.
- Alpha Psykers: Requires your Inquisitor Lord to have Seal of the Witch Hunter. If you
take Alpha Psykers you may not take any Battle Sister units.
- Xenos Squad: Requires your Inquisitor Lord to have Seal of the Alien Hunter. If you
take a Xenos Squad you may not take any Deathwatch units.
Grey Knights
- Count as Troops if you have a Grey Knight Hero in your army.
- If you have a Grey Knight Hero in your army, you may upgrade squads of Grey Knights
to Grey Knight Purgation Squads. These squads count as Heavy Support choices.[/i]
Grey Knight Veterans
- Cannot be taken unless you have a Grey Knight Hero in your army.
- May be upgraded to Grey Knight Terminators.
Deathwatch Kill Team
- Count as Troops if you have a Deathwatch Hero in your army.
- If you have a Deathwatch Hero in your army, you may upgrade squads of Deathwatch
Kill Teams to Deathwatch Annihilus Squads. These squads count as Heavy Support
choices.
Deathwatch Veterans
- Cannot be taken unless you have a Deathwatch Hero in your army.
- May be upgraded to Deathwatch Terminators.
Battle Sisters
- Count as Troops if you have a Battle Sister Heroine in your army.
- If you have a Battle Sister Heroine in your army, you may upgrade squads of Battle
Sisters to Battle Sister Retributors. These squads count as Heavy Support choices.
Battle Sister Celestines
- Cannot be taken unless you have a Battle Sister Heroine in your army.
- May be upgraded to Battle Sister Seraphims.

===TROOPS===
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers

===FAST ATTACK===
Arco-flagellants
- May only be taken if you have a Priest present in the army.
Sisters Repentia
- May only be taken if you have a Battle Sister Heroine in the army.

===HEAVY SUPPORT===
0-1 Orbital Strike
- May only be taken if you have an Inquisitor Lord in the army.
Penitent Engine
- May only be taken if you have a Priest present in the army.
Dreadnought
- May only be taken if you have a Grey Knight Hero or Deathwatch Hero in your army.
Land Raider
- May only be taken if you have a Grey Knight Hero or Deathwatch Hero in your army.
Land Raider Crusader
- May only be taken if you have a Grey Knight Hero or Deathwatch Hero in your army.
Immolator
- May only be taken if you have a Battle Sister Heroine in your army.
Exorcist
- May only be taken if you have a Battle Sister Heroine in your army.




EDIT: I also had another idea that was fairly Chaos Mark-esque (called Seals). Basically an Inquisitor could take a Seal and have access to certain units. For example, if an Inquisitor took a Seal of the Daemonhunter he could take Grey Knights as Troops and upgrade them for Purgation Squads, but would still not be able to take the Veterans/Terminators.

I like this a lot, the way the forces are broken up looks quite good to me and the seals are a nice touch. The only thing I can think of would be to add in a completely new unit or two that is generic, instead of having Storm Troopers as the only base-line unit. I can't imagine what. The only other issue I could imagine is all the unlockables being confusing to noobs, although it doesn't seem much more confusing than dealing with Marks of Chaos.

I've been toying with new unit ideas. Oddly some interesting ideas coming out of an anime I saw recently (Trinity Blood), which focuses around a futuristic Vatican that has similarities to the Inquisition in 40k. They use what I can only refer to as halberd-like "Power Mauls".

Once I can get this all figured out I will made a mock Codex for everyone.

LargeAngryGoff wrote:

EDIT: I also had another idea that was fairly Chaos Mark-esque (called Seals). Basically an Inquisitor could take a Seal and have access to certain units. For example, if an Inquisitor took a Seal of the Daemonhunter he could take Grey Knights as Troops and upgrade them for Purgation Squads, but would still not be able to take the Veterans/Terminators.

I like this a lot, the way the forces are broken up looks quite good to me and the seals are a nice touch. The only thing I can think of would be to add in a completely new unit or two that is generic, instead of having Storm Troopers as the only base-line unit. I can't imagine what. The only other issue I could imagine is all the unlockables being confusing to noobs, although it doesn't seem much more confusing than dealing with Marks of Chaos.

Marik Law wrote:Updated my list to trim, merge, and cut down some other units. Sitting pretty at 25 unit entries at the moment (not including transports or special characters):

===ELITES===
XXX
- Count as Troops if you have YYY

===TROOPS===
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers

This is a very impressively good job of converting Inquisition to follow the original 3rd Edition Chaos Codex. Given that we're two Chaos Codices past that design approach, I kind of like to doubt that GW would go backwards like that. But you never know...

From a design standpoint, the unit type upgrades and pick one bump your unit counts to an effective 35 or so. IMO, that seems like a bit too many. Perhaps I'll take another cut at things later, but I think a reasonable design goal might be a maximum of 30 entries including Transports.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Marik Law wrote:Updated my list to trim, merge, and cut down some other units. Sitting pretty at 25 unit entries at the moment (not including transports or special characters):

===ELITES===
XXX
- Count as Troops if you have YYY

===TROOPS===
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers

This is a very impressively good job of converting Inquisition to follow the original 3rd Edition Chaos Codex. Given that we're two Chaos Codices past that design approach, I kind of like to doubt that GW would go backwards like that. But you never know...

From a design standpoint, the unit type upgrades and pick one bump your unit counts to an effective 35 or so. IMO, that seems like a bit too many. Perhaps I'll take another cut at things later, but I think a reasonable design goal might be a maximum of 30 entries including Transports.

The approach of allowing the squad to be an elite without a commander and a troop if one is included works.

John your counting method is so arbitrary. In the new space marine codex bike armies are suppose to work in a similar way, does that mean the space marine army actually has 26 units... because bikes can be troops. Vanguard squads can be upgraded to another type unit? I guess in your line of thinking the three landraiders even as a one entry is three separate units? Oh and I guess the three landspeeders in one entry are also separate units too. Making 32 units in the new codex space marines + 3 transports +13 Special Characters. So lets just be fair. Its a good list and the limitations in the structure of the list really make it all moot.

EDIT: Make that 33 units in the new Codex, Techmarine with the Thunderflare becomes a Heavy Support Unit.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Marik Law wrote:Updated my list to trim, merge, and cut down some other units. Sitting pretty at 25 unit entries at the moment (not including transports or special characters):

===ELITES===
XXX
- Count as Troops if you have YYY

===TROOPS===
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers

This is a very impressively good job of converting Inquisition to follow the original 3rd Edition Chaos Codex. Given that we're two Chaos Codices past that design approach, I kind of like to doubt that GW would go backwards like that. But you never know...

From a design standpoint, the unit type upgrades and pick one bump your unit counts to an effective 35 or so. IMO, that seems like a bit too many. Perhaps I'll take another cut at things later, but I think a reasonable design goal might be a maximum of 30 entries including Transports.

As I said, I'm still working out the kinks, but to be fair in order to cram all three into one Codex without having redundant units we need to take certain things into account, either that or make a fairly bland Codex that nobody is going to like (from a gaming and fluff standpoint).

The main problem is playtesting whether or not having Battle Sisters, Grey Knights, and Deathwatch Kill Teams as Troops alongside Inquisitorial Storm Troopers is a good idea or not. We also have to remember that this is an Inquisitorial list, so in my mind the Battle Sisters, Grey Knights, and Deathwatch are specialty forces the Inquisitors call on when they need to. Larger forces, like those that include Terminators, Dreadnoughts, Veterans, etc, would definitely require the presence of a larger force, such as one lead by a "Hero" (so to speak).

Marik Law wrote: As I said, I'm still working out the kinks, but to be fair in order to cram all three into one Codex without having redundant units we need to take certain things into account, either that or make a fairly bland Codex that nobody is going to like (from a gaming and fluff standpoint).

The main problem is playtesting whether or not having Battle Sisters, Grey Knights, and Deathwatch Kill Teams as Troops alongside Inquisitorial Storm Troopers is a good idea or not. We also have to remember that this is an Inquisitorial list, so in my mind the Battle Sisters, Grey Knights, and Deathwatch are specialty forces the Inquisitors call on when they need to. Larger forces, like those that include Terminators, Dreadnoughts, Veterans, etc, would definitely require the presence of a larger force, such as one lead by a "Hero" (so to speak).

I agree with you on that point. In any force other than a SoB, GK, or DW army, there basic units only make sense as elite assets; I think you got it right.

Remember guys, whatever John says, or no matter how boring he wants to be by sticking whatever his Lord and Masters at GWHQ do, this is a Proposed Rules forum, so propose what you like.

BYE

Marik Law wrote:I've been toying with new unit ideas. Oddly some interesting ideas coming out of an anime I saw recently (Trinity Blood), which focuses around a futuristic Vatican that has similarities to the Inquisition in 40k. They use what I can only refer to as halberd-like "Power Mauls".

Once I can get this all figured out I will made a mock Codex for everyone.

Thinking some more on this idea. The "futuristic" Vatican soldiers are obviously based on the Swiss Guard; the swiss guard were the personal mercenary army of the Pope, now they are a special police force, a unit of the Swiss army out of tradition still loaned out by the Swiss government. Even now as a modern military forces members are trained with the halberd. A unit like this could have the same stat line as Stormtrooper with BS and WS stat switched; a rending close combat weapon (fair since rending got its nerfing) and a 4+ or 5+ inv. save in close combat also being a two handed close combat weapon it could be justified as +1 S.

It definitely creates an interesting close combat troop choice; where stormtroopers can be upgraded to Adeptus Arbite Patrol Teams (shotguns), maybe this close combat squad can be upgraded to Adeptus Arbite Riot Teams (power maul and combat shield).

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:From a design standpoint, the unit type upgrades and pick one bump your unit counts to an effective 35 or so. IMO, that seems like a bit too many.

John your counting method is so arbitrary.

Not really. For example, I count the Radical Squad as 3 entries, as I see Daemonhosts as totally different from Alpha Psykers or Xenos Squad (i.e. Kroot). Similarly, GK Purgation is very different from ordinary GK, and DW Annihilatus are very different from regular DW. When the unit changes type that much, I think it's effectively a different unit.

Thinking about Codex Inquisition, perhaps I was going about this the wrong way. Similar to how C: CSM has strong focus on the Chaos Marines, Codex: Inquisition should focus on the Inquisitors and their personal resources. Anything else (i.e. Chambers Militant and Inducted forces) should be secondary, and may be handled more akin to generic Lesser Daemons.

That necessarily means that Sisters of Battle would need a stand-alone Codex again, in much the same way that Chaos Daemons now have their own book. It also means that Grey Knights and Deathwatch become much smaller, and don't get fleshed out much further in this book, but similarly implies that Grey Knights would get their own book later. IMO, this is no great loss, as neither Grey Knights nor Deathwatch have been handled very well to date. Yes, the GK got PA versions, which then doubled as FA and HA, but that's all pretty weaksauce for an upgrade, which is why C: DH is a real disaster. It would be much better if GW were to take the time to make a full Codex: Grey Knights, and do it properly.

Thus,

== Codex: Inquisition ==

HQ
Inquisitor w/ 3..9 Retinue
+ Retinue: Stormtrooper/ Servitor, Gun-Servitor, Combat Servitor, Crusader, Daemonhost, Sage/Mystic, Familiar
- Rhino, Chimera, or Land Raider

non-FOC HQ
Grey Knights Captain - units of 10 GK Marines may be taken as non-FOC Troops
- Deep Strike

Deathwatch Librarian - units of 10 DW may be taken as non-FOC Troops

Elite
0-1 Imperial Assassin
- generic (PW & Inferno Pistol) or Temple: Eversor, Vindicare, Callidus, Culexus
- Infiltrate

Death Cult Assassins (1-3)
- Infiltrate

Ogryns (3..10)
+ Chimera

Grey Knights Terminators (Sgt w/ 2..4 Terminators)
- Deep Strike

Grey Knights Marines (Sgt w/ 4..9 Marines)
- Deep Strike

Deathwatch Kill Team (Sgt w/ 4..9 Veterans)
- Rhino or Razorback

Troops
Inquisitional Stormtroopers (5..10)
- Rhino or Razorback

Arco-Flagellants (5..10) - don't count towards compulsory Troops
- Fleet

non-FOC Troops - choose only 1 type
Inducted Guardsmen (10)
+ Chimera

Sisters of Battle (5 to 10)
+ Immolator or Rhino

Seconded Marines (5 to 10)
- Rhino or Razorback

Transport
Rhino
Razorback


Fast
Sentinels (1..3)
- Infiltrate

Battle Engines / Penitient Engines (1..3)
- Fleet

Heavy
Orbital Strike

Gun Servitors (5..10)

Imperial Robots (1..3)
- Slow & Purposeful

Land Raider (Crusader or Redeemer)

This is ~25 units including Retinue and Transports, so there's room to properly detail Inquisitors, each of the Ordos, and the Retinue. Ultimately, every Inquisition force will be led by at least 1 Inquisitor commanding at least 2 units of Stormtroopers. So "Inquisition" would actually be descriptive of whatever force the player takes.

The basic list is fairly minimal, with plenty of opportunity for conversion and "counts as". I've tried to provide close-combat alternatives alongside typical shooting, to allow for a fighty army. Elites are strongly competitive among themselves with lots of options for the player to choose from. I make strong use of the generic Daemon concept pioneered by the current Chaos book to bulk out the HQ and Troops selections, but break it out with a bit more diferentiation. And finally, I bring back one of my favorites from the RT era: Robots - I see these as BS3 AV12/11/10 with 1..2 Heavies and 1..2 DNCCWs.

For Ordo options, I'd have Malleus, Hereticus, Xenos, and Sicarus, with a few Radical options:
- a minor stat / rule bonus (WS, I, etc.),
- access to an Ordo-specific Psychic power,
- access to an Ordo-specific weapon,
- access to an Ordo-specific Retinue option.
For example, Malleus would have access to Thunderhammer, while Radicals would have access to Daemon weapon and Daemonhosts in their Retinue.

Arbitrary: subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion.

Your counting method is arbitrary because you are drawing distinctions in ways other than they way they're intended.

Also you never answered the fact that with your counting method:
new Codex Space Marines has 33 units + 3 Transports + 13 Characters
Codex Inquisition has "35" units +3 Transports + 6? Characters.

Your method is also arbitrary because ignore simple points of fact that regardless of which commander you choose you could never choose from more than 20 units, while a space marine player can choose from all 33 units.

Seems like over all we'd have fewer options, and going over by two units isn't that bad when an Immolator can be combined with the razorback entry and if the new codex space marine is any indication "Orbital Strike" would be a power attached to an HQ and not a unit.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Thinking about Codex Inquisition, perhaps I was going about this the wrong way. Similar to how C: CSM has strong focus on the Chaos Marines, Codex: Inquisition should focus on the Inquisitors and their personal resources. Anything else (i.e. Chambers Militant and Inducted forces) should be secondary, and may be handled more akin to generic Lesser Daemons.

That necessarily means that Sisters of Battle would need a stand-alone Codex again, in much the same way that Chaos Daemons now have their own book. It also means that Grey Knights and Deathwatch become much smaller, and don't get fleshed out much further in this book, but similarly implies that Grey Knights would get their own book later. IMO, this is no great loss, as neither Grey Knights nor Deathwatch have been handled very well to date. Yes, the GK got PA versions, which then doubled as FA and HA, but that's all pretty weaksauce for an upgrade, which is why C: DH is a real disaster. It would be much better if GW were to take the time to make a full Codex: Grey Knights, and do it properly.

The whole point of a Codex: Inquisition was to combine the three ordos of the Inquisition and all their assets into a single book. This is in anticipation of the fact that this is what GW has said they intend to do to cut down on the number of codex books. You've just proposed that instead of having 3 books they should have 4. The Daemonhunter and Witchhunters codices were originally done to showcase the Chamber militant which each have stronger following than the Inquisition alone. You've sawn the legs off a three legged stool and expect it to some how stand. In a game about warfare why would the militant arm of the three ordos "be secondary." The thing that you call secondary is really the whole purpose of a Codex: Inquisition, the inquisition is just what ties them all together.

You have just thrown out the whole reason a Codex: Inquisition is going to be done. In the words of HBMC: what are you smoking?


-Generic Lesser Daemons is the biggest thing to piss people off about that codex, so thats a bad idea.

-The "personal resources" of an Inquisitor are strictly speaking just his retinue, everything else is borrowed.

-The inducted forces are borrowed forces. What you really want can much more easily be accomplished by going back to third edition and making something like the Codex Assassin that any Imperial Force could use, but with the Inquisitor. Arbitrary rule sets not based on anything thats remotely established walks the line of being a waste of time. The type of Inquisitor led force you intend and describe will be represented by the Inquisitor option that is suppose to be in the next Codex: Imperial Guard.

I think if you had your way and a Codex Inquisition left out the chamber militants... most people would go "WTF?" As Codex: Inquisition would do nothing to remedy the situation that it is intended for.

aka_mythos wrote:Arbitrary: subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion.

Your counting method is arbitrary because you are drawing distinctions in ways other than they way they're intended.

By that definition, everything here is arbitrary. For example, the proposed lists and "units" are arbitrarily compbined. And in the counter-example, one might as well lump all SM together as a 3 entries: SM Character, SM Unit, SM Vehicle.

In any case, your use of the word arbitrary is deliberately imprecise, as it implies there isn't any method or reasoning behind it.

So here's my 2 cents.

I'd rather see more Sisters of Battle than see them sublimated into a Codex: Crap.

Grey Knights are about as worthy of a Codex as Assassins were.

I could care less about "Alien Hunters" aka the Xenos fighters.

Hello, they call those Space Marines and IG. We don't need more retardedness along this pattern.

While I think this is a good discussion, I think you guys are missing a few things:

There is no "Xenos" Inquisition.

Grey Knight players are few and far between...because they are just another Space Marine chapter, really.

So that leaves only Sisters as a unique element in the 40k universe.

I personally love the Sisters. Two more smurf chapters? How about, not?

Give them both a Blood Angels treatment, and be done with them.

Make another Sisters Codex, the only one with a heart and soul.

The inquisition was always a gakky way for Gav to shove his crappy Inquisitor game down everyone's throat and sadly it removed alot of the fun unique units from the Sisters and grouped them into weird little groups. Which in the next book will be "whittled" down to 'healer', 'gunner', 'bs guy'. Gee, can I have 3 of each? Neat! Next edition after, I can run...imperial guardsmen as my "retinue".

So please, let's not go that way.

Restore Sisters of Battle, remove the Witch Hunters inquisition crap, don't add the Xenos crap, and put the GK into a web pdf and allow anyone to run them in an Imperial army. Oh, and no lame 'special demon rules to balance for non-demon games points blah blah but demons kick our ass' ok?

Thanks. Fries.

Technically, I'm combining all *four* Ordos (Malleus, Heriticus, Xenos, Sicarus) into a single book, along with their (generic) "Chambers" (GK, SoB, DW, Assassins).

GW has retrenched on the Inquisition, because they don't know what to do with it. But if you go back, GW has traditionally had 2 Inquisition themed books since they've done Codices:
- 2E: SoB & Assassins (+ "Agents of the Imperium")
- 3E: SoB & Assassins (+ "Agents of the Imperium")
- 4E: WH (SoB) & DH (Assassins)
This is because this is what actually *works* based on the models GW has produced.

Combining the Ordos and Chambers fails because the Chambers aren't at the same level of detail. Trying to treat them uniformly produces poor results because you have to create a lot of new stuff for GK and DW to make them comparably viable compared to SoB. It's the same problem with the Radical DH, but on a larger scale.

If you look at what's well-established, you have lots of Sisters units with a long history of how that army should work, and you have you have Imperial Agents (i.e. Inquisition) that date back to Rogue Trader. These are armies that can become full Codices. So restore the C: SoB with C: Inquisition replacing C: Assassins while adding Grey Knights and Deathwatch.

By the time Inquisition gets their Codex, the new-style Codices will be in full force. Complex things like what you're wanting will be long gone in favor of much tighter things like what I propose.

And quite frankly, I don't see Sisters retaining the Stormtrooper, Assassin, or Inquisitor options. Nor do I see Imperial Guard gaining an Inquisitor or Assassin option. Which is why that stuff gets rehomed to C: Inquisition. And BTW, what is your source for IG getting an Inquisitor entry in their list. I've been following the IG rumors, and this is news to me.

Multi-book armies are going away in favor of standalone books which may duplicate units from other books. The Land Raider is a pretty good example of this, appearing in DH, WH, SM, CSM, BT, and DA Codices, along with the BA preview, and presumably SW.

Actually, like C: CSM, my proposed C: Inq does a lot to remedy the situation by creating an umbrella under which the various Chambers (like WH) can be placed. So if people can understand how C: Daemons sits under C: CSM, then they'll see how C: SoB sits under C: Inq.

Stelek wrote:So here's my 2 cents.

Interesting. I basically agree with *everything* that you wrote.

So you're not really proposing rules, what you want is just for the Inquisitor stuff to to away, Grey Knights to vanish, and Sisters to get their own book.

So you're proposing the removal of rules.

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Arbitrary: subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion.

Your counting method is arbitrary because you are drawing distinctions in ways other than they way they're intended.

By that definition, everything here is arbitrary. For example, the proposed lists and "units" are arbitrarily compbined. And in the counter-example, one might as well lump all SM together as a 3 entries: SM Character, SM Unit, SM Vehicle.

In any case, your use of the word arbitrary is deliberately imprecise, as it implies there isn't any method or reasoning behind it.

I claim only your method of counting is specifically arbitrary because you are counting one army in one way and counting the other in a different way just to prove a point. I am pointing out that your analysis fails because once you compare them in the same way they end up being pretty much equal and not the drastic difference you try to imply.

The reason for basing things on pre-established works and fluff is to avoid and marginalize the arbitrary nature of proposed rules.

That definition is from a dictionary man. A better word: biased, you're not trying to be impartial in how you count the units and are using two different counting conventions to prove your point. No matter how often I try to provide a count that attempts to use an equal convention you ignore it.

Mythos, you're never going to get through to him, so don't bother. He's just going to keep doing what he's been doing all thread, and saying why you "can't" do what you've proposed and how GW would do it another way, or how he'd do it (which is just an extension of how he thinks GW would do it).

Isn't the fact that he thinks the Chamber Militant units should be like 'Generic Daemons' proof enough that he hasn't got the faintest clue what this particular sub-forum is about?

BYE

P.S. Don't quote the above. I quite enjoy my anonymity I get from him.

Stelek wrote:So here's my 2 cents.
I'd rather see more Sisters of Battle than see them sublimated into a Codex: Crap.
Grey Knights are about as worthy of a Codex as Assassins were.
I could care less about "Alien Hunters" aka the Xenos fighters.
Hello, they call those Space Marines and IG. We don't need more retardedness along this pattern.
While I think this is a good discussion, I think you guys are missing a few things:
There is no "Xenos" Inquisition.
Grey Knight players are few and far between...because they are just another Space Marine chapter, really.
So that leaves only Sisters as a unique element in the 40k universe.
I personally love the Sisters. Two more smurf chapters? How about, not?
Give them both a Blood Angels treatment, and be done with them.
Make another Sisters Codex, the only one with a heart and soul.

The inquisition was always a gakky way for Gav to shove his crappy Inquisitor game down everyone's throat and sadly it removed alot of the fun unique units from the Sisters and grouped them into weird little groups. Which in the next book will be "whittled" down to 'healer', 'gunner', 'bs guy'. Gee, can I have 3 of each? Neat! Next edition after, I can run...imperial guardsmen as my "retinue".
So please, let's not go that way.
Restore Sisters of Battle, remove the Witch Hunters inquisition crap, don't add the Xenos crap, and put the GK into a web pdf and allow anyone to run them in an Imperial army. Oh, and no lame 'special demon rules to balance for non-demon games points blah blah but demons kick our ass' ok?
Thanks. Fries.

Wow... you're in the wrong place. The whole point of the original post was to find away to combine the three Ordo's and their chamber militant into one book because its what GW has voiced their intent with Inquisition. All you want is a Codex: Sister of Battle. That would be cool and all but if that what you want to discuss you should create a new thread. Hit the back button, to return to the index page in the top left hand corner is button that says "New Topic" click that and type away.

The Inquisitor game came first establishing much of the fluff used in both inquisition codices. They were added into Codices because of their popularity. The units are the way they were in the codex to justify their battlefield presence. It was a great game so flexible so much ambiance but it really required a good GM.

H.B.M.C. wrote:So you're not really proposing rules, what you want is just for the Inquisitor stuff to to away, Grey Knights to vanish, and Sisters to get their own book.

So you're proposing the removal of rules.

YES.

You can "remove" the GK Codex, the Inquistorial crap, and move it to web based PDF's.

Alot easier to update (or when this stuff gets updated in 2020, this is "good"?).


Since Smurfs are getting S6 power weapons, why do GK exist? Right. Get rid of the GK.

Since Xenos don't exist, don't clodge the damn system with more useless crap.

People want to run Arbite and Inquisitorial armies? Fine, PDF on the web. Go nuts.

I want UNIQUE armies. That means Sisters. GK are not unique and neither will Xenos be (hey neat all the DW ammo just got stuffed into the marines codex too...) so why bother putting more support behind crap codices that no one needs to run these?

Ok I give the shrouding to sternguard vets with S6 power weapons (or whatever slowed good unit Jervis pulled out of his ass) and BAM, call them GK. Make sure it's +5 points for GK and +21 for GKT.

/clap

I too, can design stupid units with stupid rules and eliminate entire codices with one line.

SISTERS OF BATTLE = COOL.

Rest = Lame.

Sales of the Inquisition (and the carnival, curse you Hoare!!) show this to be true. I am your father...

Sorry, if you want me to stand around while you guys talk about how 'Awesome' Codex: Inquisition will be, not gonna do it.

Grey Knights are space marines.

Xenos are space marines.

EFF THE SPACE MARINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sisters are a unique force in the 40k universe and that is what players need.

NOT MORE SPACE MARINES WITH CRAP RULES WRITTEN FOR CHILDREN 10 AND UNDER!!!

Thanks for listening.

I'm all for Sisters getting their own book, but please dude this is the totally wrong topic to be debating that in.

If you want Grey Knights to go than they're gonna have to get crammed into Codex: Space Marines, as I can't see why the Legion of the Damned would get their own unit entries than the Grey Knights should get their own as well since they also are fairly popular and do have their own models. Sounds fair, no?"

So what your basically saying is that you want Inquisitors to get their own Codex, but to have barely any units in it? Sure the army is fairly Space Marine heavy right now, but if you take away those than all that's going to happen is GW is going to throw more "Inquisitorial" Guard units in there. Take a look at what you'd have if you stripped away Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Battle Sisters:

Inquisitor Lord
Priests
Inquisitors
Assassin
Death-cult Assassins
Arco-flagellants
Daemonhosts
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
Penitent Engine

Even if you added Xenos Mercenaries and Alpha Psykers that would still only be 11 units, you'd need at least another 9 units for the Codex to be up to today's standards of unit numbers required to make a Codex (that being roughly 20, not including Transports and Special Characters). We already have enough people who are pretty angry at the fact that GW dropped Squat, Lost and the Damned, Salamanders, and now Blood Angels if what I heard is correct. I doubt that if GW left GK out of the new Inquisitor Codex that they'd include Battle Sisters or give them their own Codex.

Also I don't know what lore you guys are reading, but the Chamber Militants are part of the Inquisition, thus at the behest of the Inquisition. Yes, including your precious Sisters of Battle. Also I don't know where you're getting that the Ordos Xenos doesn't exist. It clearly does as its been in the fluff for quite a while now. The Emperor created the Ordos Xenos shortly before the Great Crusade in order to investigate, catalog, and destroy any potential alien threats. All Chamber Militant means is that the force is the military arm of the Inquisition.

As for all my squad options within the squads, unless you want me to get rid of Seraphims or Celestines than its really all I can do to keep the squad number down. I also don't see just upgrading a squad to having 4 Special/Heavy Weapons as being such a huge change. The Chosen from the prior (not the current) CSM list were both Terminators and Veterans, yet they only counted as one unit. What I'm suggesting is also much less complicated than the Chosen were.

I'll say it again, I'm all for a Sisters codex, but lets face it, it's not going to happen. If not for Codex Witch Hunters the Sisters of Battle would have been shelved. Be thankful, if your lucky GW won't just make a single generic Battle Sisters squad ala Harlequins or Legion of the Damned in the new Inquisitor Codex. This isn't the place for rabid Battle Sisters fanboy rantings, its a place for potential rules discussion.

Marik, while I agree with you, I have to say its really no use. Those two have problems with concept of a unified Codex, in the way GW intends to do and the way you have effectively achieved. They are sadly railroading this conversation and we should all do our best to stay on topic; not wasting our time justifying a threads existence to people who are stubbornly wasting everyones time.

Marik, I think you've come closes to hitting the nail on the head for a Codex: Inquisition. I think your ideas are very fitting, there are a few tweaks but its mostly nomenclature. I sent you a PM with those minor adjustments and I was wondering what your thoughts on it were?

aka_mythos wrote:Marik, while I agree with you, I have to say its really no use. Those two have problems with concept of a unified Codex, in the way GW intends to do and the way you have effectively achieved. They are sadly railroading this conversation and we should all do our best to stay on topic; not wasting our time justifying a threads existence to people who are stubbornly wasting everyones time.

[WarSeer]
Guys, I apologize for disagreeing with you and proposing an alternative. I had forgotten that board rules disallow dissent or disagreement, and that proposal or discussion of alternatives under "Proposed Rules" was not allowed. I thought I was on another board that allowed creative thought and alternative proposals. I wasn't aware that we were only allowed to say "Good job, attaboy." [golf clap]
[/WarSeer]

[Dakka]
Dude, grow up. You guys aren't the only ones who can come up with a new idea, and not everybody needs to agree with it. Codex: Inquisition isn't a single concept, and right now "sales category: 'Inquisition'" is more of a holding bin than anything else. Stelek makes good points, and he's backed by a tradition of rules, Fluff, and models that go back to Rogue Trader. Strong Fluff goes back more than one edition. In other words, just deal with the fact that not everyone agrees.
[/Dakka]

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Marik, while I agree with you, I have to say its really no use. Those two have problems with concept of a unified Codex, in the way GW intends to do and the way you have effectively achieved. They are sadly railroading this conversation and we should all do our best to stay on topic; not wasting our time justifying a threads existence to people who are stubbornly wasting everyones time.

[WarSeer]
Guys, I apologize for disagreeing with you and proposing an alternative. I had forgotten that board rules disallow dissent or disagreement, and that proposal or discussion of alternatives under "Proposed Rules" was not allowed. I thought I was on another board that allowed creative thought and alternative proposals. I wasn't aware that we were only allowed to say "Good job, attaboy." [golf clap]
[/WarSeer]

[Dakka]
Dude, grow up. You guys aren't the only ones who can come up with a new idea, and not everybody needs to agree with it. Codex: Inquisition isn't a single concept, and right now "sales category: 'Inquisition'" is more of a holding bin than anything else. Stelek makes good points, and he's backed by a tradition of rules, Fluff, and models that go back to Rogue Trader. Strong Fluff goes back more than one edition. In other words, just deal with the fact that not everyone agrees.
[/Dakka]

You're free to disagree with specific ideas, but you two effectively disagree with the entirety of the concept. You keep trying to railroad the discussion from the discussion of that core concept to something other than it. If what you want to discuss is other than the threads established core concept it deserves its own thread. I don't oppose your idea, I just think that what you and stelek want to talk about is fundamentally different from what we're talking about.

Disagree and feel free to propose specific alternatives in line with the core concept, but don't flame. Argue ideas do not attack people.

I think Marik has come closest to what the original poster intended and I happen to agree with his approach because it accomplish the goals that were put out there. So while you and stelek don't like the concept of a unified all encompassing codex for the inquisition it is the subject of this discussion.

Also an all Sisters of Battle codex is furthest from fluff. In Rogue Trader there was only one Ordo of the Inquisition and that was the ordo malleus and their Grey Knights. The next ordo mentioned was the Ordo Xenos featured in an article following Inquisitor Cryptman and Deathwatch squad in his discovery of a hivefleet approaching an Ork controlled planet and his observations of this new threat. The last and final Ordo created both in fluff and in actuallity were the Ordo Hereticus; where the other two ordos were created by emperor himself the ordo hereticus was established long after the emperor was bound to the golden thrown they originate in the Age of Apostasy to create a check on the power of the ecclesiarchy; the sisters of battle were born out of a loop hole that specifically band such a force. Where the first two ordos existed in Rogue Trader, Sisters of Battle and Ordo Hereticus were invented in 2nd edition.

I find myself leaning more toward Stelek's interpretation. It does seem to me that you could make the Inquisition codex entirely based around the Sisters of Battle as the primary force with options for Daemonhunters and Deathwatch as single troop or elite choices within that force (or separate PDF codexes) more coherently than attempting to create a giant supercodex that integrates all three exhaustively.

Really, the Grey Knights don't "deserve" to be an actual Army. It plays like a single troop, elite, and heavy support option because that's really all there is.

Sisters, on the other hand, seem to be distinctive enough on their own to warrant their own codex with plastic models. We never see Grey Knight armies because your whole army is three different models. We never see Sisters armies because they're all made out of metal and expensive as hell (this can also apply to GKs). Why not solve both by sidelining the GKs, which is in-line with their ultrarare, ultraelite status, and generating more interest for Sisters?

Deathwatch is just normal marines with black armor and multicolored shoulderpads. Give them the new Ap3 ammo that's coming out with the new marine dex if you don't feel they're special enough.

Wait, you are using "GW created the fluff for GK first" as an argument?

How about this.

Sisters were a playable army in 1997. Not the crap joke armies that were the Deathwatch (not an army), Grey knights (also not an army), or Necrons (a very amusing scarab unit but else a crappy army). The latter two were not improved much with actual Codices.

Grey knights are grey knights with smurf raiders or imperial guard. So....the same as they were before, but with a neat little book for you to buy.

Sisters had the original list, a fanatic list, the white dwarf list, ca2002, and a full on codex that actually added on to them with more units (ones I personally despise, but they actually got new models where the GK just got more marines in pretty armor and as sourclams pointed out...the model range is so impressive).

If I were you, I'd check my facts first.

Sisters are in fact the longest running Ordos 'army' by many years, and despite their cost there are many players who run them.

GK are no less expensive, yet people don't run the army (because it's almost as boring as Necrons, which is really saying something).

Hopefully you see the light. If not, I can send a Sister around to purify you.

aka_mythos wrote:You're free to disagree with specific ideas, but you two effectively disagree with the entirety of the concept. You keep trying to railroad the discussion from the discussion of that core concept to something other than it. If what you want to discuss is other than the threads established core concept it deserves its own thread. I don't oppose your idea, I just think that what you and stelek want to talk about is fundamentally different from what we're talking about.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

This isn't a discussion about if Grey Knights 'deserve' a Codex (I have friends who would argue that they've been waiting for a Grey Knight list ever since they were first invented... oh wait... Grey Knights did have a full army list when they were first invented), this is a discussion about proposing rules for a unified Inquisition Codex.

Now you guys (Stelek, Jonny-boy) may want Sisters to have their own separate Codex, and I certainly don't disagree with that notion, but that's not what this thread is about. At the end of the day, the Chambers Militant (all three of them), are part of this system now, so rather than whining about Sisters getting their own 'Dex and Grey Knights just being 'smurfs' (seriously Stelek, do you know how stupid you sound when you sound off about 'Smurfs'), and try to either think up ways to make a unified Inquisition Codex, or shut up and go away.

BYE

Well, maybe I'm just way out in left field in my interpretation, but that's more or less what I'm in favor of: a unified Inquisition codex, but one that uses the Sisters as a baseline. i.e. an Inquisition army is going to primarily be Sisters of Battle, with the option of taking PAGK or Deathwatch as troop choices or GK terms with land raider transports as elite choices.

This, to me, is the single most simple consolidation of the three lists: GK don't have much that warrants a full codex, Deathwatch definitely don't have anything that warrants a full codex, and Sisters, while having enough to warrant a full codex, don't represent fully the three arms of the Inquisition although they do constitute the majority of its standing forces from a pure numbers standpoint.

HBMC, you want to have GK and Xenos in a Sisters army.

Why? People don't run marines in a Sisters army now.

You can tell me what I'm saying is crap, and that's fine. Is it really?

You want to take a non-existent army (Xenos does NOT exist, no matter how often you say it does); and a army with 2 sculpts (Grey Knight, Grey Knight Termie) and 4 weapons (Psycannon, Incinerator, Power Sword, Power Halberd) and make it into a full fledged army.

Dude, Necrons are near death and they have WAY more models than the GK do.

Deathwatch ARE just black marines, like it or not.

Sisters are a viable army as they stand now (though I'd love to see the carnival units not suck like they do).

There is NO need for a "Ordo" book. GW knows this, that's why DH are at the end of the codex cycle (close to being dropped IMO) and the Xenos Hunters are DEAD and GONE.

Sisters could be made viable with plastic models, and a revamp of the carnival units--more Sisters would be nice, but they really do have a completely viable army running just Sisters.

GK teleport attack? Lame. GK sit back and shoot with psycannons, or LR charge with GKT. Gee, there's a winner of an army...can't imagine why an army with 3 blisters on the rack isn't exciting GW enough to make a full-fledged book out of it.

Everything else is just IG and pretend IG.

Do I want the GK army to go away? Not really, and while I don't completely oppose the idea in this thread--I don't want the Sisters to be tainted by marines in their codex.

Know why? That's the death knell for the uniqueness that ARE the Sisters of Battle.

They are NOT marines. THAT is why people buy them. I will gladly spend a THOUSAND DOLLARS on a Sisters army rather than buy three marine armies off ebay for that price.

Now if you separate out the GK and the Deathwatch into their own little bonus sections in a Codex: Inquisition, fine so be it...so long as the Sisters retain their identity.

You do know alot of Sisters players HATE the Witch Hunters name and won't use it? Why? Because Sisters are their own army, and people like that about them.

Imperial without being marines or IG really is neat.

It's like being a Xenos race, and that's a good thing for the hobby.

Being some stupid mishmash (like the ordos are right now) is bad for the hobby.

I hope you understand better now.

Or you can keep being dismissive and rude.

Here's a question for you, Stelek:

If we took the Sisters of Battle codex (aka Witch hunters) in its current form, and simply added in PAGK as a troop choice, a Deathwatch killteam as a troop choice, and GK terms in a landraider as an elite choice, do you think people playing sisters would bother to take them?

My opinion would be what can a PAGK do that Sisters can't do for cheaper and with more flame templates, ditto Deathwatch, and GK Terms cost so much that I'd rather just have more flame templates and meltaguns.

Then my follow up for the general population would be:

If people playing Sisters didn't bother taking the aforementioned Space Marine units, would it even be worht the bother to include them in the Inquisition Codex?

My personal opinion on this would be 'yes, the option should exist', but my gut feeling would be that if I wanted to play an Inquisition army, I might have a squad or two of Marines just for moral support but really, the whole reason for playing Inquisition would be to retain power armor without being Astartes.

Correct on all points.

I don't think Sisters players would bother.

Not being Astartes in any way (stats, abilities, etc) is why people like Sisters.

Not having to bring 200 guardsmen but being able to fill the gaps in a Sisters army is another reason.

Do I think it would be worthwhile to include them? Well, I'm never one for eliminating armies that have been around for a while (even craptastic unpopular nonselling ones like the GT) but to be honest I think this is the problem with a Codex: Inquisition....

If you provide a unified IG section, a unified Marine section, a unified Deathwatch section, a unified GK section, and a unified Sisters section...all built into one book...

That totally breaks the mold GW has set for themselves in trying to make each Codex stand alone. A task I think that is impossible, but whatever that's the one they've set for themselves.

See, as soon as the IG book or Marine book is redone--the Inquisition book is broken.

So, only the Sisters are a complete army (without the IG).

Since Marines + Sisters don't mix, drop the Xenos crap into the Marine Codex because that's what the Xenos hunters are. A white dwarf article will do.

Then make the GK choices for everyone that plays Imperials, you can run them as part of the Marines (like the Xenos) or you can make them part of the Sisters but I don't think shoehorning them in with the Carnival troops will be a good thing for the Sisters or the GK.

Putting the GK into the marines makes the most sense to me. They never really needed their own codex (which was really codex: IG with no doctrines, weird limits, and some super marines) in the first place. They ARE a marine chapter. So are the deathwatch. Stick them with the Astartes and call it good.

Keep the Sisters in their original identity and merge the GK and Xenos back with the rest of the marines as support elements.

Why you need differently colored marines to do the same thing the marine dex will let you do in october is also beyond me. I guess everyone will see just how redundant the Xenos hunters and the GK really are when it comes out.

sourclams wrote:I find myself leaning more toward Stelek's interpretation. It does seem to me that you could make the Inquisition codex entirely based around the Sisters of Battle as the primary force with options for Daemonhunters and Deathwatch as single troop or elite choices within that force (or separate PDF codexes) more coherently than attempting to create a giant supercodex that integrates all three exhaustively.

Really, the Grey Knights don't "deserve" to be an actual Army. It plays like a single troop, elite, and heavy support option because that's really all there is.

Sisters, on the other hand, seem to be distinctive enough on their own to warrant their own codex with plastic models. We never see Grey Knight armies because your whole army is three different models. We never see Sisters armies because they're all made out of metal and expensive as hell (this can also apply to GKs). Why not solve both by sidelining the GKs, which is in-line with their ultrarare, ultraelite status, and generating more interest for Sisters?

Deathwatch is just normal marines with black armor and multicolored shoulderpads. Give them the new Ap3 ammo that's coming out with the new marine dex if you don't feel they're special enough.

Its a fine idea, its just not quite the concept being discussed. The inquisition is not an SoB primary army, your list effectively elevates the SoB to a position where the other to Ordo's play second fiddle, when fluff dictates that the Ordo hereticus is in an inferior standing and at best only marginally weaker than the other two.

Grey Knights deserve a list more than Dark Angels, I agree they leave alot to be desired in there current form and in practical terms if it weren't for the specialized nature of their missions they'd have access to everything in the space marine list and they'd be better viable. I've seen several Daemonhunter/Grey Knight Armies and have actually seen fewer Witchhunter/SoB Armies. If GK were done properly they'd be a lot more powerful but they've been toned down to be playable as an army. Deathwatch are elite marines, everyone of them is a veteran with a high amount of experience fighting aliens. They're under developed as a concept and have had even less work done on them then the other two that is the only reason they leave something to be desired and are perceived as lacking.

The numbers don't lie, we've shown that a Codex Inquisition could be done with representation equal given to all Ordos, without taking anything away and being reasonably with in the number of unit options afforded in the new Codex: Inquisition. So when you say what your saying it can only be construed as favoritism to a particular ordo and not any desire to fairly and effectively represent the entirety of the Inquisition and their chamber militants.

Sidelining either DW or GK doesn't solve a problem it avoids it. Just because you ignore the lack of support an army has been given and you marginalize them doesn't make them any less worthy of support. DW and GK each have a stronger battle field presence than any single space marine chapter that is why deserve to be represented in a codex beyond a token unit.

This discussion is on how to unify the armies in a properly representative way and grant equal support to all Inquisition element. Anything else you should start a new thread.

Stelek wrote:Correct on all points.
I don't think Sisters players would bother.
Not being Astartes in any way (stats, abilities, etc) is why people like Sisters.
Not having to bring 200 guardsmen but being able to fill the gaps in a Sisters army is another reason.
Do I think it would be worthwhile to include them? Well, I'm never one for eliminating armies that have been around for a while (even craptastic unpopular nonselling ones like the GT) but to be honest I think this is the problem with a Codex: Inquisition....
If you provide a unified IG section, a unified Marine section, a unified Deathwatch section, a unified GK section, and a unified Sisters section...all built into one book...
That totally breaks the mold GW has set for themselves in trying to make each Codex stand alone. A task I think that is impossible, but whatever that's the one they've set for themselves.
See, as soon as the IG book or Marine book is redone--the Inquisition book is broken.
So, only the Sisters are a complete army (without the IG).
Since Marines + Sisters don't mix, drop the Xenos crap into the Marine Codex because that's what the Xenos hunters are. A white dwarf article will do.
Then make the GK choices for everyone that plays Imperials, you can run them as part of the Marines (like the Xenos) or you can make them part of the Sisters but I don't think shoehorning them in with the Carnival troops will be a good thing for the Sisters or the GK.
Putting the GK into the marines makes the most sense to me. They never really needed their own codex (which was really codex: IG with no doctrines, weird limits, and some super marines) in the first place. They ARE a marine chapter. So are the deathwatch. Stick them with the Astartes and call it good.
Keep the Sisters in their original identity and merge the GK and Xenos back with the rest of the marines as support elements.
Why you need differently colored marines to do the same thing the marine dex will let you do in october is also beyond me. I guess everyone will see just how redundant the Xenos hunters and the GK really are when it comes out.

Our working version so far does not provide for a "unified IG" or "unified SM" section because its too much and the list doesn't need it. If you read the posts thats something everyone agrees with, you need to catch up with the reality of this discussion.

Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus would have just as many unit options as Ordo Hereticus in our codex making them all just as viable.
Both DW and GK are distinct from standard marine armies in there unique mission statement and the specialized gear they utilize. They are both more unique than Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves. and thus deserve more support. DW are not a marine chapter, they are a collection of veteran marines from a diverse number of marine chapters.

Stelek wrote:HBMC, you want to have GK and Xenos in a Sisters army.

I don't see it as a Sisters army though, that's the major disconenct here Stelek.

I see an Inquisition Codex, representing the three major Ordos and their Chambers Militant.

Stelek wrote:Why? People don't run marines in a Sisters army now.

Which has all of what to do with anything?

Stelek wrote:You can tell me what I'm saying is crap, and that's fine. Is it really?

What you're saying isn't crap per se - as I said, I like the idea of a separate Sisters Codex - but when the idea is 'Ideas for an Inquisition Codex' and your suggestion is 'Drop everything and just make Sisters', you can see how that might run contrary to the aims of the thread.

Stelek wrote:You want to take a non-existent army (Xenos does NOT exist, no matter how often you say it does);

It doesn't exist as a Codex because the two existing Inquisitorial Codices have too much redundancy, so reprinting the same thing (given that Inquisi Stormies would be there, Assassins, Henchmen etc.) a third time doesn't make any sense, economic or otherwise. As far as existing within the fluff, the Ordos Xenos most certainly does exist.

Stelek wrote:and a army with 2 sculpts (Grey Knight, Grey Knight Termie) and 4 weapons (Psycannon, Incinerator, Power Sword, Power Halberd) and make it into a full fledged army.

People field pure GK armies now, so how would including them in a unified Inquisition Codex be any different?

Stelek wrote:Dude, Necrons are near death and they have WAY more models than the GK do.

Near death as in people aren't interested in them? I'd love to live in the world you live in. Hey, maybe I'll start belittling everyone I talk to and refer to all Marine players as Smurf players.

Stelek wrote:Deathwatch ARE just black marines, like it or not.

Because they have never been expanded upon. You seem to think that what we have now is it, and we'll never get anything more. Deathwatch have miles of room to be expanded upon. Granted, they are quite different to GKs and SoBs in that they're not a force in-and-of-themselves, as they're made up of people from other Chapters, but to simply rule them out because they've only been bothered to make a single squad for them, that's just ludicrous.

Eventually the Dark Heresy guys will finish off that Deathwatch core book, and that should expand upon the different roles within the Deathwatch. It's probably a long way off, but, then again, so is a revision on the Inquisition line.

Stelek wrote:Sisters are a viable army as they stand now (though I'd love to see the carnival units not suck like they do).

Yes they are, but I'd prefer to see them in a unified Inquisitorial Codex... which is what this thread's about!!! Funny that...

Stelek wrote:There is NO need for a "Ordo" book. GW knows this, that's why DH are at the end of the codex cycle (close to being dropped IMO) and the Xenos Hunters are DEAD and GONE.

Since when does need come into anything? We don't need 10000 different Chapters of Marines. We didn't need a friggin' Daemon Army book (or wouldn't have if GW had made a decent Chaos Marine Codex in the first place).

DH, along with Witch Hunters will either be dropped completely (the Sisters Champion - Andy Chambers - is long gone), or subsumed into a single Inquisition book that adds Xenos units and options. Now given GW has said that they're going to continue to support all the current armies, I very much doubt that GKs and Sisters will go the way of the Squats, so a unified Inquisition Codex is infinitely more likely.

Of course, Jervis could go the way of the Squats soon and the company could go belly-up, in which case we get nothing.

Stelek wrote:Sisters could be made viable with plastic models, and a revamp of the carnival units--more Sisters would be nice, but they really do have a completely viable army running just Sisters.

I don't disagree, but that's not what this thread is about.

Jesus H. Christ Stelek. Have you not got that through your head. Perhaps I'll simplify this for you:

Rough idea for Codex - Inquisition

See. That's the title of the thread. Not 'How would you do Codex: SoBs' or, 'The Inquisition shouldn't exist as a Codex - so what would you do?'.

If you want to discuss a standalone SoBs Codex, then by all means go ahead, just do it in a different thread rather than telling everyone why we shouldn't have an Inquisition Codex in a thread about brainstorming an Inquisition Codex!

Gah!

*deep breath*

Moving on...

Stelek wrote:GK teleport attack? Lame. GK sit back and shoot with psycannons, or LR charge with GKT. Gee, there's a winner of an army...can't imagine why an army with 3 blisters on the rack isn't exciting GW enough to make a full-fledged book out of it.

I dunno. The Grey Knight armies we've used have always added a richness and depth to campaigns and to the ongoing story that our group has been playing for the past 4 years. I don't deny that Grey Knights, as an army, have very few different unit types (so-much-so we actually invented a unit called a Purification Squad, which is basically a elite unit of Power Armour GK's who teleport around the table with holy melta bombs and other such things), but to cut them just because you haven't got the imagination to include them? No.

Stelek wrote:Everything else is just IG and pretend IG.

In your opinion.

Stelek wrote:Do I want the GK army to go away? Not really, and while I don't completely oppose the idea in this thread--I don't want the Sisters to be tainted by marines in their codex.

But it's not 'their' Codex. It's an Inquisition Codex, one that includes all Ordos and all Chambers Militant. I can live with the fact that you despise the very notion of a unified Inquisition Codex - and that's cool, no problems - just don't crap on here about it when we're trying to discuss what we'd do if a unified book were to be made.

Stelek wrote:Know why? That's the death knell for the uniqueness that ARE the Sisters of Battle.

Uniqueness? They're the half-way point between Guard and Marines. They're glorified Storm Troopers with fancy Faith rules. Sisters exist because of an ancient pic from Rogue Trader. I like them, but to claim that having non-sister units would be a 'death-knell' for a SoB army is just a silly overreaction.

Stelek wrote:They are NOT marines. THAT is why people buy them. I will gladly spend a THOUSAND DOLLARS on a Sisters army rather than buy three marine armies off ebay for that price.

That's great. In the meantime, most people play Marines. Why can they just get along?

Stelek wrote:Now if you separate out the GK and the Deathwatch into their own little bonus sections in a Codex: Inquisition, fine so be it...so long as the Sisters retain their identity.

I would see the unified Inquisition Codex as a book that had 4 sections to it. It would be one army list, but it'd have 4 distinct sections. The first section would be the Inquisition itself, with the units it has access to, the inducted units, plus all the freakshow and wild-card units (made useful of course). The next three sections would be for the Chambers Militant, going over the units they had access to, identifying them as part of the Inquisition but separate in identity and organisation.

The list itself would be similar to what others have proposed here, with options from all 4 sections within the same list, but still retain flexibility that would allow you to take a SoB army without using an Inquisitorial or other Chamber armies.

Stelek wrote:You do know alot of Sisters players HATE the Witch Hunters name and won't use it? Why? Because Sisters are their own army, and people like that about them.

I've never heard of anyone saying how they 'won't' call their army a Witch Hunter army. That's just childish.

But please, again, for the last time:

I don't care whether you want Sisters to be a separate list or not. That is so inconsequential to this thread that your constant spamming of it is becoming mind numbing, even moreso than Jonny-boy's attempt at winning the Bland Olympics for Bland GW-esque Codex Design.

This thread is about a Unified Inquisition Codex. I know you don't want that, and, again, that's fine, but either discuss that, or leave. This isn't the place to bitch endlessly about how the Sisters need their own book.

Stelek wrote:Being some stupid mishmash (like the ordos are right now) is bad for the hobby

No, having 2 (or 3) books with redundant unit entries is bad for the hobby, as it confuses players, which is why there shouldn't be a Codex: Daemonhunters or a Codex: Witch Hunters and there should only be a single, solitar, Codex: Inquisition.

Stelek wrote:I hope you understand better now.

There's nothing to understand. This thread is about a unified Inquisitorial Codex and all you want to talk about is that you want Sisters to have their own book. Non sequitur.

Stelek wrote:Or you can keep being dismissive and rude.

But I do like emulating you Stelek. You're my hero!!!

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:No, having 2 (or 3) books with redundant unit entries is bad for the hobby, as it confuses players, which is why there shouldn't be a Codex: Daemonhunters or a Codex: Witch Hunters and there should only be a single, solitar, Codex: Inquisition.

There should be a Codex: Marines and a Codex: Sisters of Battle.

GK are not unique, stop pretending they are. SILVER space marines.
Deathwatch are not unique, stop pretending they are. BLACK space marines.

As soon as you have a real rebuttal for why the whole concept isn't just 'Space Marines, Girly Men, and Girls', let me know. Cause that's where it stands now and it won't sell.

aka_mythos wrote:Our working version so far does not provide for a "unified IG" or "unified SM" section because its too much and the list doesn't need it. If you read the posts thats something everyone agrees with, you need to catch up with the reality of this discussion.

Really? I did read it.

I see: Storm troopers (IG units), Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts (Space Marine units), Deathwatch (more Space Marines), Grey Knights (more Space Marines), and the removal of all the other IG stuff because it was too complikikateded for ya?

Right. The reality is, this is a SMURF book and no ing thanks.

aka_mythos wrote:Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus would have just as many unit options as Ordo Hereticus in our codex making them all just as viable.

Still the same stupid stat lines, still marines...WHY is this good?

Explain how it's good for the hobby? Do you actually think you'll get a good Codex out of GW from this? I assure you Dark Angels sell FAR better than GK do, and look at how they got handled.

aka_mythos wrote:Both DW and GK are distinct from standard marine armies in there unique mission statement and the specialized gear they utilize. They are both more unique than Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves. and thus deserve more support.

Total bull.

DW are marines with new shoulder pads and heavy bolters with new ammo.
GK are still marines, again, new shoulder pads and new weapons.

DA are marines in robes.
BA are marines in jump packs.
Space Wolves are marines with teeth and wolf pelts.

I mean, do you really think I'm stupid or what?

BLACK, SILVER , GREEN, RED, GREY.

Gee, original.

aka_mythos wrote:DW are not a marine chapter, they are a collection of veteran marines from a diverse number of marine chapters.

They call that the Astral Claws chapter (on the spikey "evil" marine team). You take all of your failed marine army projects and test paint jobs, give them a new shoulderpad, and BAMMO you're a whole new legion of traitors.

I feel dumb just having to point the obvious out.

Concession accepted then Stelek.

If you're not going to bother reading my entire post, then you're not worth dealing with.

Grey Knights are not Silver Marines. They're nothing like Marines, much like Space Wolves and Black Templars are nothing like Marines.

Now, again, if you want to discuss Codex: Inquisition, please, stay in the thread. If you want to discuss how much you want a Codex: Sisters of Battle, then start a thread about Codex: Sisters of Battle. Don't clog up a thread about Codex: Inquisition with your ignorant, overblown bs.

BYE

aka_mythos wrote:Its a fine idea, its just not quite the concept being discussed. The inquisition is not an SoB primary army, your list effectively elevates the SoB to a position where the other to Ordo's play second fiddle, when fluff dictates that the Ordo hereticus is in an inferior standing and at best only marginally weaker than the other two.

....

The numbers don't lie, we've shown that a Codex Inquisition could be done with representation equal given to all Ordos, without taking anything away and being reasonably with in the number of unit options afforded in the new Codex: Inquisition. So when you say what your saying it can only be construed as favoritism to a particular ordo and not any desire to fairly and effectively represent the entirety of the Inquisition and their chamber militants.

Sidelining either DW or GK doesn't solve a problem it avoids it. Just because you ignore the lack of support an army has been given and you marginalize them doesn't make them any less worthy of support. DW and GK each have a stronger battle field presence than any single space marine chapter that is why deserve to be represented in a codex beyond a token unit.

....

This discussion is on how to unify the armies in a properly representative way and grant equal support to all Inquisition element. Anything else you should start a new thread.

First off, I am just about always in favor of more options, not fewer. More options = dynamic and good, fewer options = stagnant and bland. The wall I'm running into when I read this web project that clearly several people have put a lot of time and thought into and are taking enjoyment from, is that we may as well go whole hog and make it Codex: Imperium. I mean honestly, we've got by your own admission, three different armies in this book. What, then, would be so difficult about just adding IG and Space Marines and be done with the whole matter? If taking HQs unlocks successive options, add a Force Commander and Lord Militant, throw in a basilisk, hellhound, and Librarian, and we're basically done with the humans in 40k. That is my problem. The Inquisition has access to *everything*. In order to really do it up accurately, you just have to give it access to *everything*. And that kind of kills all the other codices. Why would I bother buying an IG and a SM codex when I can just do it all with my Inquisition codex?

That's why I say, to avoid homogenization, sideline the stuff that already exists or is better done in the existing material. You have not, and I say this with respect, shown me that the Inquisition can be done with equal representation to the three Ordos in one codex. What you have shown me is a plug-and-play flow chart that lets me buy one book and play Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, and Imperial Guard that are somehow different because there's 'I's stamped onto their armor. Ordo Xenos is guardsmen and space marines. Ordo Malleus is space marines and better space marines. Ordo Hereticus is Sisters of Battle.

And see, there's my problem. By making the Codex: Inquisition exhaustive, you're homogenizing it. In order to be exhaustive you need to have the entire Imperium in there because fundamentally, all that an Inquisitional army is is an Inquisitor + a pre-existing army. I never say to ignore the Grey Knights or the Deathwatch, rather I support minimizing their role in a new codex because, as Stelek has expounded upon, Marines have already been done. Guard have already been done and are being done again. Inquisition Leman Russes shouldn't be radically different just because there's an 'I' stamped on the side. Rather than re-do what we've already got, let's instead take the single unique element, the Sisters of Battle, and have something completely different. What I'm saying is directly relevant to this thread because it's impossible to properly represent the Inquisition in one codex without diluting it to the point of losing any elements that make the Inquisition unique. Trim the excess or go all out. Call it Codex: Adepta Sororitas or Codex: Imperium.

I could live with Codex: Imperium, but then you'd have to bring the Adeptus Mechanicus in as well, and I'd prefer they got their own list (which FW will hopefully do soon).

BYE

Stelek wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:No, having 2 (or 3) books with redundant unit entries is bad for the hobby, as it confuses players, which is why there shouldn't be a Codex: Daemonhunters or a Codex: Witch Hunters and there should only be a single, solitar, Codex: Inquisition.

There should be a Codex: Marines and a Codex: Sisters of Battle.

GK are not unique, stop pretending they are. SILVER space marines.
Deathwatch are not unique, stop pretending they are. BLACK space marines.

As soon as you have a real rebuttal for why the whole concept isn't just 'Space Marines, Girly Men, and Girls', let me know. Cause that's where it stands now and it won't sell.

This is a discussion on the combined codex Inquisition, separate Codex: SoB is off topic. Please refrain from that line of discussion.

Other than GK name another Space Marine chapter where the basic troops are armed with force weapons and storm bolter and fight daemons with there collective psyker power.
Other than DW name another Space Marine "chapter" whose basic troop sgts are actually Captains and Librarians, and are a force of around 1000 marines from the first companies of other chapters; where the totality of the force is equivalent to 10, Space Marine 1st Companies.

If you can name a single space marine chapter that fit either of those it proves they are not unique.

Stelek wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Our working version so far does not provide for a "unified IG" or "unified SM" section because its too much and the list doesn't need it. If you read the posts thats something everyone agrees with, you need to catch up with the reality of this discussion.

Really? I did read it.

I see: Storm troopers (IG units), Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts (Space Marine units), Deathwatch (more Space Marines), Grey Knights (more Space Marines), and the removal of all the other IG stuff because it was too complikikateded for ya?

Right. The reality is, this is a SMURF book and no ing thanks.

No need to be profane.
Yes you see a single IG unit *gasp* which we've proposed to make more unique but even still an Inquisitor has access to the elite of the IG.
The land raider is once again a unit an Inquisitor has access to. The dreadnought is in their for the Grey Knights because they are a specialized marine chapter tha t maintains them. I'm however insistent on them being not generally available without a Grey Knight Hero; nor should DW should have them.

Deathwatch is a unique space marine organization. Far more unique than many of the other supported chapters. A full chapter sized force where all ten companies each have the strength of a chapter's first company. Where the warriors are specially equipped to fight the worse alien threat, threats equal to or worse than a C'tan.

Grey Knights are a specially armed chapter of daemonhunters armed with force weapons and a collective psyker power. Name another marine force like this.

IG were left out because in practical terms they'd inflate the codex with units that are not part of the Inquisition. The Inquisition does however maintain its own stormtroopers thats why they are included while other IG units are not.

Yeah, smurfs... good cartoon... I'm glad you think our list is nice and well loved by children all around the world.

This list does not include any more than 5 DW units and 5 GK units, with the addition of a landraider. 11 out of 30 units does not a "marine list" make, there are more special characters than that in the new space marine codex.

Stelek wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus would have just as many unit options as Ordo Hereticus in our codex making them all just as viable.

Still the same stupid stat lines, still marines...WHY is this good?

Explain how it's good for the hobby? Do you actually think you'll get a good Codex out of GW from this? I assure you Dark Angels sell FAR better than GK do, and look at how they got handled.

There is more to an armies identity than their stat line; it is everything else that goes into their rules that define them. You are using selective reasoning, fixating on similarities to make your call on how unique they are. While if you were serious about understanding their uniqueness you'd focus on the other rules they have that generic marines do not.

Its good for the hobby because people want to play it and they know they'd have fun and that what this hobby is about. A codex done in the way we're proposing would be better than the current Chaos Space Marine Codex or Codex Daemon and infinitely better than no codex at all. Dark Angels have been redone recently of course they sell better; I think the Codex: Dark Angels was well handled, fluffish and only disappointing in light of the new additions to the Codex: Space Marines. Regardless if the new marine codex allows for ravenwing or deathwing better than Codex Dark Angels, than there is something to complain about.

Stelek wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Both DW and GK are distinct from standard marine armies in there unique mission statement and the specialized gear they utilize. They are both more unique than Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves. and thus deserve more support.

Total bull.

DW are marines with new shoulder pads and heavy bolters with new ammo.
GK are still marines, again, new shoulder pads and new weapons.

DA are marines in robes.
BA are marines in jump packs.
Space Wolves are marines with teeth and wolf pelts.

I mean, do you really think I'm stupid or what?

BLACK, SILVER , GREEN, RED, GREY.

Gee, original.

I say I think you're what... I'm mean stupid... When you say stuff like that I do think so.
You ignore the fluff of each chapter of marines by making such a comparison at which point I have to question why you're in this hobby. If you don't allow the fluff to come into play in your analysis, you ignore what makes the overall game 40k. Even if that aspect of the hobby isn't your cup of tea, doesn't mean you got to piss on it.

Stelek wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:DW are not a marine chapter, they are a collection of veteran marines from a diverse number of marine chapters.

They call that the Astral Claws chapter (on the spikey "evil" marine team). You take all of your failed marine army projects and test paint jobs, give them a new shoulderpad, and BAMMO you're a whole new legion of traitors.

I feel dumb...

No actually astral claws are space pirating marines that are on the side of Chaos. They don't fight aliens as their stated mission, they don't have specialized equipment, they are not composed solely of veteran marines. They are not an elite strike force of the Ordo Xenos. Insert Coin and Please Try Again.

aka_mythos:

Just extend what I said in my PM to cover Stelek, and we can move on.



So, going back to Deathwatch for a second, what do you think they should have to expand upon the army?

As I've mentioned elsehwhere, probably in this thread, I have a full Deathwatch army.

It's organised like this:

Deathwatch Captain w/Thunderhammer
9-strong Deathwatch Command Squad w/Librarian, two Vets with Power Weapons & two Vets with Combi-Meltas

Deathwatch Sergeant w/Power Fist
9-strong Deathwatch Tactical Sqaud w/2 Heavy Bolters

Deathwatch Sergeant w/Power Fist
9-strong Deathwatch Tactical Sqaud w/2 Heavy Bolters

Deathwatch Sergeant w/Power Fist
9-strong Deathwatch Assault Sqaud w/2 Power Weapons

Deathwatch Sergeant w/Power Weapon
9-strong Deathwatch Devastator Sqaud w/4 Missile Launchers

Deathwatch Sergeant w/Thunder Hammer
7-strong Deathwatch Assault Terminator Sqaud w/2 Thunder Hammers, 5 Lightning Claws & 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers

Deathwatch Sergeant w/Power Weapon
5-strong Deathwatch Terminator Sqaud w/2 Cyclone Missile Launchers


Generally the idea behind it was to expand Special Ammunition types to include missile launchers (regular & Cyclones), and any special weapons they had (like a Plasma or Melta) would a Combi-Weapon, so they could continue to use the special bolt ammunition if they wanted to. This allows for a bit more than squads with Hellfire Heavy Bolters, and allows more modelling opportunities as well (hence my army, which was done just to do the models).

The two Tactical Squads and the Devastator Sergeants also have those funky special backpacks from the plastic Dev Squad sprue, and my intent was to write rules for that as well.

A thread from a while back went into the Deathwatch a little, and the concensus ('cept for good ol' Stelly up there) was that the Deathwatch should focus on technology as their means of defeating the Alien. Not Xenos technology, but the most advanced, cutting edge Imperial technology.

I also want to eventually add Deathwatch Dreads in there, the idea being a Dread from another Chapter doing a tour of duty with the Deathwatch, or a particular Marine who served the Deathwatch several times as to earn a permanant place after death, and so on.

Anyway, all very pie-in-the-sky broad brush-strokes concept stuff, but that was my starting point.

BYE

sourclams wrote:
First off, I am just about always in favor of more options, not fewer. More options = dynamic and good, fewer options = stagnant and bland. The wall I'm running into when I read this web project that clearly several people have put a lot of time and thought into and are taking enjoyment from, is that we may as well go whole hog and make it Codex: Imperium. I mean honestly, we've got by your own admission, three different armies in this book. What, then, would be so difficult about just adding IG and Space Marines and be done with the whole matter? If taking HQs unlocks successive options, add a Force Commander and Lord Militant, throw in a basilisk, hellhound, and Librarian, and we're basically done with the humans in 40k. That is my problem. The Inquisition has access to *everything*. In order to really do it up accurately, you just have to give it access to *everything*. And that kind of kills all the other codices. Why would I bother buying an IG and a SM codex when I can just do it all with my Inquisition codex?

This is why with our current working list with the exception of the Stormtroopers (that the inquisition maintains for its own use), landraiders (which Inquisitors have personal access to) nothing else is "borrowed" or taken from any other codices. While the specialized vehicles and options of the chamber militant come close the combinations of those are unique to those unit.

We have chosen to do a list that represent the units at the immediate authority of the Inquisition and their chamber militants; a list that only includes units that are part of the Inquisition directly and not by "induction."

sourclams wrote:
That's why I say, to avoid homogenization, sideline the stuff that already exists or is better done in the existing material. You have not, and I say this with respect, shown me that the Inquisition can be done with equal representation to the three Ordos in one codex. What you have shown me is a plug-and-play flow chart that lets me buy one book and play Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, and Imperial Guard that are somehow different because there's 'I's stamped onto their armor. Ordo Xenos is guardsmen and space marines. Ordo Malleus is space marines and better space marines. Ordo Hereticus is Sisters of Battle.

This list is suppose to supersede Codex Witchhunter and Codex Daemonhunter while incorporating what would have been a Codex Xeno-hunter. By allowing the core units common to all three we have created a list of basic units available to all Inquisitor regardless of Ordo.

They can be equally represented our list includes all currently existing units without excluding any. The only shaky assumption is that Codex Daemonhunter and Codex Witchhunter equally represent each of those Ordo forces. We then extrapolate from fluff a number of units for Ordo Xenos that put them on par with the other two pre-established works. Thats how we got what we have. Beyond that it becomes a matter of play test various lists to ensure no one configuration is over powered.
Each Chamber Militant has roughly the same number of units to choose from that is as equal as it comes.

Ordo Xenos doesn't include guardmen beyond the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers available to all Ordo's. Under our list Ordo Malleus only has access to Grey Knight chapter beyond the units available to all other Ordos. There are other things to the Ordo Hereticus than just SoB, but a majority of those are in common with othe Inquisition assets.

sourclams wrote:
And see, there's my problem. By making the Codex: Inquisition exhaustive, you're homogenizing it. In order to be exhaustive you need to have the entire Imperium in there because fundamentally, all that an Inquisitional army is is an Inquisitor + a pre-existing army. I never say to ignore the Grey Knights or the Deathwatch, rather I support minimizing their role in a new codex because, as Stelek has expounded upon, Marines have already been done. Guard have already been done and are being done again. Inquisition Leman Russes shouldn't be radically different just because there's an 'I' stamped on the side. Rather than re-do what we've already got, let's instead take the single unique element, the Sisters of Battle, and have something completely different. What I'm saying is directly relevant to this thread because it's impossible to properly represent the Inquisition in one codex without diluting it to the point of losing any elements that make the Inquisition unique. Trim the excess or go all out. Call it Codex: Adepta Sororitas or Codex: Imperium.

We have instated a system where by it is very difficult to play a list that is a homogenized Inquisitional force. You will never have access to marine or imperial guard assets not granted in the list (only Stromtrooper and Land Raiders). While a player can mix and match Ordos and Chamber militants, it is kept to a minimum by making basic chamber militant units elite FOC choices unless taken by the appropriate hero and where use of the other specialized chamber militant units requires the appropriate hero.

The Grey Knights and the Deathwatch are the primary military force of their branches of the inquisition; excluding them would be no different than trying to do a historic representation of Nazis fighting in WWII without mentioning the SS, possible but rather pointless. I know its not a perfect analogy but it makes the point of how synonymous they almost are.

This is a discussion on a comprehensive Codex: Inquisition, meant to combine all elements of the Codex Daemonhunters and Codex Witch Hunters while extrapolating elements for the Ordo Xenos into a single Codex to the exclusion of standard IG and SM forces. Codex: Imperium and Codex: Adeptus Sororitas discussion should be made in a new thread.

In discussion of the Ordo Xenos chamber militant contribution to the codex:

the man behind the curtain wrote:aka_mythos:

So, going back to Deathwatch for a second, what do you think they should have to expand upon the army?

As I've mentioned elsehwhere, probably in this thread, I have a full Deathwatch army...

I think what you have so far is a good army.

We have DW killteams as a base unit.

In the fluff it is the job of certain DW to stand guard over different libraries but also places where larger cthulu-esque alien threats are known to be sleeping. I imagine these units could be the the basis for the more specialized unit DW Terminators (I like the name Deathwatch Centurions but it might need work)

Marik, Deathwatch Annihilus Squad is good but needs some "umph" by ensuring appropriate options.

Other than that I think the DW should have their own unique vehicle since SoB and GK have their Excorcist and Dreadnought respectively. I don't believe DW would use dreadnoughts because the body of a fallen DW would be too valued by the loaner chapter to allow the DW to hold onto indefinitely and with only a limited number of dreadnoughts held by each chapter a chapter would not loan one out. That I think leaves the Landspeeder as the most viable platform for a DW vehicle. Akin to the close air support provided to special forces (see Black Hawk Down)

My idea for a Deathwatch Landspeeder is the Land Speeder Torrent; it has a heavy bolter in front with typhoon missile pods (both weapons with DW ammo) also the speeder would have an ability similar to that of the new Land Speeder Storm where by it can scramble enemy deepstrikes increasing the enemies deviation roles. Though some other unique ability might be better to make it more distinct, such as allowing them to deep strike.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
Generally the idea behind it was to expand Special Ammunition types to include missile launchers (regular & Cyclones), and any special weapons they had (like a Plasma or Melta) would a Combi-Weapon, so they could continue to use the special bolt ammunition if they wanted to. This allows for a bit more than squads with Hellfire Heavy Bolters, and allows more modelling opportunities as well (hence my army, which was done just to do the models).

I agree this is a good and reasonable addition seeing as the Sternguard Vets have similar options.

I think the DW Terminator unit should be able to take combi-weapons for ammo access but should also have the different Terminator assault squad weapon options. I think missile ammo also helps zero in on the main DW Term. squads heavy weapon without adding a new weapon (like a heavy bolter which isn't appropriate).

I think missile launchers with special shots is a good idea though how it'd be represented is hard, like a missile launcher with a plasma missile would function just like a plasma cannon and that'd be a little wrong. A melta-missile is more reasonable but would also be hard without making the missile launcher into a missile launcher-multimelta combo. A special missile would need to be conceptualized with a specific purpose that fits the DW mission without being over the top. My thought is this: fluff dictates that needler based weapons are the choice weapons of the Ordo Xenos, so how about a missile that fires a pack of needler flechettes instead of a frag shot.
It would add this to the list of missiles: (Needler Flechette Missile) 48" SX AP6 Heavy 1 Blast, Pinning.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
The two Tactical Squads and the Devastator Sergeants also have those funky special backpacks from the plastic Dev Squad sprue, and my intent was to write rules for that as well.

A thread from a while back went into the Deathwatch a little, and the concensus ('cept for good ol' Stelly up there) was that the Deathwatch should focus on technology as their means of defeating the Alien. Not Xenos technology, but the most advanced, cutting edge Imperial technology.

I also want to eventually add Deathwatch Dreads in there, the idea being a Dread from another Chapter doing a tour of duty with the Deathwatch, or a particular Marine who served the Deathwatch several times as to earn a permanant place after death, and so on.

Anyway, all very pie-in-the-sky broad brush-strokes concept stuff, but that was my starting point.

With the Ordo Xeno's close tie to the adeptus mechanicus the DW Annihilus squads would benefit from the same sort of tech Techmarines have. The backpack's sensor looks similar to signums worn by techmarines on their helmets. Signum conferees one re-roll a turn in shooting, that sounds good and simple to me.

Like I said above I think a dreadnought is more the realm of Grey Knights; dreadnoughts have been done to death with several armies having specialized versions (Furioso BA, Mortis DA, Venerable SW and everyone else). I also don't think it fits the fluff of this sort of DW. No matter how honored a chapter might be any marine worthy enough to be entombed would be wanted returned by his chapter so they could entombed him in a dreadnought. I don't deny I do see the appeal I just think we could come up with something that fits better and give a more unique flavor. Thats why I proposed a Land Speeder, which kills two birds with one stone by providing a Fast Attack option and a unique vehicle that DW are lacking.

And I just realised why I'm the man behind the curtain,

Hehehe.

BYE

The post above I accidentally clicked submit so when I thought I was still writing a response and hit submit again it put the complete post here. I edited the above post to conclude my comments as intended.

To the man behind the curtain, I am specificlly interested in hearing your thoughts on the landspeeder vs dreadnought and the missile ammo issue.

You guys make me sleepy.

Astartes are different because they are, but guys with Astartes equipment/stats/abilities are different because of their special rules.

Gee. I've been blind all this time.

And you make me weepy.

Weepy over the fact that you still can't grasp that this isn't a thread about Marines, or Sisters, but a thread about a unified Inquisition Codex.

feth off Stelek. The grownups are discussing the actual thread topic. Take your non sequitur-ish bs somewhere else.

BYE

DW Landspeeder vs Dreadnoughts?
Missile ammo?
Topic... thoughts?

Stelek must've gotten into this hobby because he liked how slotta bases looked sexy in black... or something as ridiculous... cause it obviously wasn't what drew everyone else.

aka_mythos wrote:I think what you have so far is a good army.

We have DW killteams as a base unit.

In the fluff it is the job of certain DW to stand guard over different libraries but also places where larger cthulu-esque alien threats are known to be sleeping. I imagine these units could be the the basis for the more specialized unit DW Terminators (I like the name Deathwatch Centurions but it might need work)

Centurions works. We can't call them Guardians sadly, but Centurions is not a bad name actually. Something along the lines of:

"Centurions are elite Space Marines who have served several tours with the Deathwatch, and have been given the holy duty of guarding the Ordos Xenos' most revered artefacts, sacred texts and ancient tombs. Clad in ornate suits of Terminator armour, and wielding Storm Bolters and Cyclones augmented by the Ordos Xenos' best artificers, Centurions are a sight to behold on the battlefield, as they enact their duty to the Ordos Xenos and to the Emperor with a fervour not seen even among regular Space Marine Chapters."

aka_mythos wrote:Marik, Deathwatch Annihilus Squad is good but needs some "umph" by ensuring appropriate options.

Well, if what he meant by that was a Deathwatch Dev Squad (essentially), I think the 4 Heavy Weapons with augmented munitions would give it enough 'umph'. Either 4 MLs or 4 HBs. Again, part of that is me being selfish as that's exactly the way I designed my Deathwatch (I have 4 HBs and 4 MLs that I can swap between the two DW Tac Squads and the DW Dev Squad), but nevertheless, I think with the limited ability to gain heavy weapons means that it would be the special munitions that would give them the punch they need to be competative. Combined with the 'high technology' idea you could add further enhancements to the unit such as Signums or Anti-Night-Fight abilities - even base around that new SM Backpack bit from the plastic Dev Sprue I mentioned. They look like a high-tech targeting array, so why not make something out of it? Aside from that, the only other weapon I can see them getting is a Heavy Flamer for their Terminator units - so basically it's Heavy Bolters, Heavy Flamers, Missile Launchers and Cyclone Missile Launchers. I'm also assuming that Cyclones are Heavy 2 (like they should be, and possibly will be in the new Codex).

As far as Combi-Weapons go, in order to retain any use the Deathwatch would need to have a special sub-set of Combi-Weapons that didn't run out immediately upon use. One of the worse weapon rules in current 40K is the fact that Combi-Weapons last for a single shot, and then that's it. Now that might be fine for the odd unit here and there, but for an army where it's their only special weapon, it needs to be more than a one-shot wonder. Can't think of a name for it yet, but a 'unlimited ammo' Combi-weapon is what they need.

aka_mythos wrote:Other than that I think the DW should have their own unique vehicle since SoB and GK have their Excorcist and Dreadnought respectively. I don't believe DW would use dreadnoughts because the body of a fallen DW would be too valued by the loaner chapter to allow the DW to hold onto indefinitely and with only a limited number of dreadnoughts held by each chapter a chapter would not loan one out. That I think leaves the Landspeeder as the most viable platform for a DW vehicle. Akin to the close air support provided to special forces (see Black Hawk Down)

Hmm... funny you should mention that.

A while back - going on 3 or more years now - myself and another member of our group were brainstorming ideas for a mission called 'Thunderhawk Down'. This big Apoc-level battle (long before Apoc was ever announced or even thought of) was to be set in the Ork city of Morkadeeshu, and focus on units of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers trying to extract people from a downed Thunderhawk (or, as it started, two downed Valkyries). We were going to have loads and loads of Trukks (Orky Teknikals!), and the Humvee Column (Rhinos full of Storm Troopers), and various squads of elite Guardsmen (Rangers) and Deathwatch (Delta Force) on the ground.

We came to the discussion of what would the 'Little Birds'. As you've seen Black Hawk Down, you no doubt remember the Little Bids. What stuck with us most was the use of the Little Birds as improvised troop transports, and we hit upon the idea for a transport Land Speeder, with minimal guns compared to a standard Land Speeder, but the transport capacity for about 6 models. In our case though it wasn't for Deathwatch Marines, but for Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, and this is where the idea of the Inquisitorial Rapid Responce Team in our Codex: Daemonhunters Revisited came from (soon to be turned into a unified Inquisi Codex).

You can imagine our joy when we saw GW would be making a transport speeder for Scouts. Doesn't take much to turn them into Storm Trooper transports.

So we had thought of the Transport Speeder thing, but not for Deathwatch. I had also thought about the Dreadnought issue. There is no 'Deathwatch Chapter' per se, they're a collection of other Chapters brought together. There is no formal organisation, everything is ad hoc, and they're brought together where needed. If one of them was killed (or close to) to the point where he would be interred in a Dreadnought's sarcophagus, wouldn't he just go back to the Chapter he came from?

In most cases, yeah, he probably would.

But let's step back for a second - isn't the idea of a Deathwatch Dread with all sorts of funky, high-tech Ordo Xenos gear too much to pass up? Isn't that image cool enough to justify ignoring what would probably happen and just include it anyway? I think it is.

As far as a completely new vehicle... the game's crowded enough as it is. Even the Repressor is kind've redundant in Sob armies as they can get Rhinos and Immolators. I would say Deathwatch should just keep the two main staples - Rhinos and Land Raiders (and crazy-cool Ordo Xenos enhanced Dreads!!! ). Given their ad hoc nature, I just think that keeping armouries of unique vehicles would be impractical. Might as well keep it simple - and it don't get much more simple than the Rhino. Hell, you could even say that ancient and holy Land Raiders were good enough to enact tours with the Deathwatch themselves - their Machine Spirits are sentient (or near enough to) afterall.

aka_mythos wrote:My idea for a Deathwatch Landspeeder is the Land Speeder Torrent; it has a heavy bolter in front with typhoon missile pods (both weapons with DW ammo) also the speeder would have an ability similar to that of the new Land Speeder Storm where by it can scramble enemy deepstrikes increasing the enemies deviation roles. Though some other unique ability might be better to make it more distinct, such as allowing them to deep strike.

I have no problem with a Deathwatch Land Speeder, I just don't see why it'd be any different to regular Land Speeders except for the scramble effect, as that ties into the 'high-tech' thing I talked about earlier. Actually, I'm warming to the idea of Deathwatch Land Speeders, maybe not as a transport (just can't see it flying with 5 power armour guys + crew + weapons), but let's not throw out the idea of the Deathwatch Dread!!!

aka_mythos wrote:I agree this is a good and reasonable addition seeing as the Sternguard Vets have similar options.

I was quite surpised by the Sternguard ammo options actually. Guess we'll see in a few months if they have any good ideas and I'll just pilfer from them for my own Codex. D

aka_mythos wrote:I think the DW Terminator unit should be able to take combi-weapons for ammo access but should also have the different Terminator assault squad weapon options. I think missile ammo also helps zero in on the main DW Term. squads heavy weapon without adding a new weapon (like a heavy bolter which isn't appropriate).

I think missile launchers with special shots is a good idea though how it'd be represented is hard, like a missile launcher with a plasma missile would function just like a plasma cannon and that'd be a little wrong. A melta-missile is more reasonable but would also be hard without making the missile launcher into a missile launcher-multimelta combo. A special missile would need to be conceptualized with a specific purpose that fits the DW mission without being over the top. My thought is this: fluff dictates that needler based weapons are the choice weapons of the Ordo Xenos, so how about a missile that fires a pack of needler flechettes instead of a frag shot.
It would add this to the list of missiles: (Needler Flechette Missile) 48" SX AP6 Heavy 1 Blast, Pinning.

As it happens, I already wrote down a few very basic ideas for different ammo types. Let me just find them... ok, here we go. Generally speaking the idea was to have different ammunition types to deal with different types of Xenos, again, emphasising the high-tech nature of the Deathwatch and the Ordos Xenos in general:

Mk. III Hellfire Shell - Anti-Tyranid

Contains mutagenic acid and other toxins, designed specifically to fight against the Tyranid menace. As a side effect, it is also very effective against non-Tyranids. Hellfire weapons always wound on a 2+, regardless of the type of target being shot at.

Hellfire Bolter
R30 S4 AP3 Assault 1

Hellfire Storm Bolter
R30 S4 AP3 Assault 2/Twin-Linked

Hellfire Heavy Bolter
R36 S5 AP3 Assault 1/Blast

Hellfire Missile
R48 S8 AP3 Assault 1

(Aside: A couple of things above the above. In 40K Revisited, ranges are inreased somewhat, so Bolters have a standard range of 30", not 24". Additionally, Storm Bolters have had the Twin-Linked rule added on to make them superior to Combi-Bolters, something they're not currently at 12" or less, which never made any sense as they're supposed to be the next generation of combi-bolters. The heavy weapons are also all 'Assault' rather than 'heavy' as all Deathwatch have suspensors, and the 'half-range = assault rather than heavy' is clunky and unnecessary when it's much easier to just make the weapon Assault rather than Heavy, period.)


Mk.XII Tempest Shells - Anti-Ork

These shells replace their mass reactive explosive with a proximity sensing charge. The explosive charge is increased and internal casing is replaced with material that fragments that, when they detonate, create a shower of debris that is extremely deadly to troops with low armour protection.

Tempest Bolter
R30 S4 AP5 Assault 4

Tempest Storm Bolter
R30 S4 AP5 Assault 4/Twin-Linked

Tempest Heavy Bolter
R36 S5 AP4 Assault 10

Tempest Missile
R48 S4 AP5 Assault 1/Large Blast


Mk.XXVI Ignis Shells - Anti-Tau

Designed to fight against the Tau and instil fear and confusion in their ranks, these shells replace their mass reactive explosive with a proximity sensing charge. The shells detonate before hitting their targets, unleashing waves of electricity. The effect both inflicts damage on enemy combatants as well as scouring the air of any airborne pheromone traces. Tau subject to these types of shells are left confused without their pheromone-based command system, and often flee. Tau units hit by Ignis Shells must always take a Morale Check, with their Leadership Value reduced by –1 for every models killed by the Ignis rounds.

Ignis Bolter
R30 S5 AP5 Rapid Fire

Ignis Storm Bolter
R30 S5 AP5 Assault 4/Twin-Linked

Ignis Heavy Bolter
R36 S5 AP4 Assault 3

Ignis Missile
R48 S5 AP4 Assault 1/Blast/Ignores Cover Saves

And the other two, and these haven't had rules written, were the Mk.VI Vanus Shells (designed to stun psykers - anti-Eldar shells) and the Mk.IX Tabidus Shells, which were Acid shells designed to eat away at Necrons, ignoring WBB and doing loads of damage (also decent against vehicles).

Now the biggest problem was how do you work these shells into the list?

If they're taken indivudually (ie. you have a choice between the different shell types), then they're useless as you just take the best general ammo type and go from there. The other idea was to have the special ammo as a unit upgrade (ie. for +25 points per squad, they may have Augmented Munitions for their Bolt Pistols, Bolters, Combi-Weapons, Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Missile Launchers and Cyclone Missile Launchers) and then depending on who you were fighting, you'd just get that ammo. So if you were fighting Eldar, any unit that took 'Augmented Munitions' would be assumed to have the Mk.VI Vanus Shells. If you came up against Tyranids, everyone who you'd given Autmented Munitions to would automatically have Mk.III Hellfire Shells.

The problem with that idea is twofold:

1. What if you come up against Marines (is there an anti-Marine round? Should there be an anti-Marine round? Do you just let the Deathwatch player pick any ammo type when playing non-Xenos?)?
2. How do you cost this as it is essentially a form of prescribed and encouraged 'list tailoring', something I've never liked.

Anyway, those were my original ideas on the subject. It's not a case of giving Plasma and Melta missiles to Missile Launchers/Cyclone Launchers. It's a matter of adapting the fancy bolter rounds for general use with Missile Weapons, something that, I think, is more realistic and far more fitting for the Deathwatch.

aka_mythos wrote:With the Ordo Xeno's close tie to the adeptus mechanicus the DW Annihilus squads would benefit from the same sort of tech Techmarines have. The backpack's sensor looks similar to signums worn by techmarines on their helmets. Signum conferees one re-roll a turn in shooting, that sounds good and simple to me.

That's the idea I was getting at.

aka_mythos wrote:Like I said above I think a dreadnought is more the realm of Grey Knights

Ah c'mon - don't you want a Dread with some fancy old-tech weapons on it, special munitions (there's a new Dread with a Hurricane Bolter coming out soon - imagine that with Augmented Munitions!!!). Admit it, a Deathwatch Dread is cool.

BYE

aka_mythos wrote:Stelek must've gotten into this hobby because he liked how slotta bases looked sexy in black... or something as ridiculous... cause it obviously wasn't what drew everyone else.

Actually because I thought Abaddon and Chaos Terminators looked like badasses.

Who knew they'd be the same figs 15 years later?

So I swapped to Eldar cause I thought their tanks and Phoenix Lords looked badass.

Who knew they'd be the same figs 15 years later?

Now ya know why I started.

the man behind the curtain wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think what you have so far is a good army.

We have DW killteams as a base unit.

In the fluff it is the job of certain DW to stand guard over different libraries but also places where larger cthulu-esque alien threats are known to be sleeping. I imagine these units could be the the basis for the more specialized unit DW Terminators (I like the name Deathwatch Centurions but it might need work)

Centurions works. We can't call them Guardians sadly, but Centurions is not a bad name actually. Something along the lines of:

"Centurions are elite Space Marines who have served several tours with the Deathwatch, and have been given the holy duty of guarding the Ordos Xenos' most revered artefacts, sacred texts and ancient tombs. Clad in ornate suits of Terminator armour, and wielding Storm Bolters and Cyclones augmented by the Ordos Xenos' best artificers, Centurions are a sight to behold on the battlefield, as they enact their duty to the Ordos Xenos and to the Emperor with a fervour not seen even among regular Space Marine Chapters."

Nice!
In the same way Captains lead kill teams, do you think the sgt equivalent should still be Captains or something else?
Also with the stat boost to Space Marine Captains in the new Codex SM do you think Kill Team Captains should get that boost or maybe we should take advantage of the change and rename the Captain to Praetor or some other name that would draw less a direct connect to the Space Marine commander, as I think the DW Hero should have the new uber stat line while the squad captain has the current stat line.

the man behind the curtain wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Marik, Deathwatch Annihilus Squad is good but needs some "umph" by ensuring appropriate options.

Well, if what he meant by that was a Deathwatch Dev Squad (essentially), I think the 4 Heavy Weapons with augmented munitions would give it enough 'umph'. Either 4 MLs or 4 HBs. Again, part of that is me being selfish as that's exactly the way I designed my Deathwatch (I have 4 HBs and 4 MLs that I can swap between the two DW Tac Squads and the DW Dev Squad), but nevertheless, I think with the limited ability to gain heavy weapons means that it would be the special munitions that would give them the punch they need to be competative. Combined with the 'high technology' idea you could add further enhancements to the unit such as Signums or Anti-Night-Fight abilities - even base around that new SM Backpack bit from the plastic Dev Sprue I mentioned. They look like a high-tech targeting array, so why not make something out of it? Aside from that, the only other weapon I can see them getting is a Heavy Flamer for their Terminator units - so basically it's Heavy Bolters, Heavy Flamers, Missile Launchers and Cyclone Missile Launchers. I'm also assuming that Cyclones are Heavy 2 (like they should be, and possibly will be in the new Codex).

Yes it was what he meant. I think limiting to HB and MLs keeps in line with the mobility theme of the DW.
I think the Annihilus/Devastator squad having a signum is good. I think its a good way of representing the back pack sensor array.
I was thinking the DW theme of "The Eternal Vigil" could be the in to give an army wide "Acute Sense" special rule as the anti-night-fight abilities.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
As far as Combi-Weapons go, in order to retain any use the Deathwatch would need to have a special sub-set of Combi-Weapons that didn't run out immediately upon use. One of the worse weapon rules in current 40K is the fact that Combi-Weapons last for a single shot, and then that's it. Now that might be fine for the odd unit here and there, but for an army where it's their only special weapon, it needs to be more than a one-shot wonder. Can't think of a name for it yet, but a 'unlimited ammo' Combi-weapon is what they need.

I don't think we should deviate in how combi-weapons are done. Between special ammo in line with Sternguard and the special heavies the combi-special weapons become secondary. I do think something unique as a hero's wargear option is viable. The real value of combi-weapons are when you take straight up combi-bolter and get to re-roll "vegence bolts" which has stats that are practically a special weapon.

the man behind the curtain wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Other than that I think the DW should have their own unique vehicle since SoB and GK have their Excorcist and Dreadnought respectively. I don't believe DW would use dreadnoughts because the body of a fallen DW would be too valued by the loaner chapter to allow the DW to hold onto indefinitely and with only a limited number of dreadnoughts held by each chapter a chapter would not loan one out. That I think leaves the Landspeeder as the most viable platform for a DW vehicle. Akin to the close air support provided to special forces (see Black Hawk Down)

Hmm... funny you should mention that.

...

You can imagine our joy when we saw GW would be making a transport speeder for Scouts. Doesn't take much to turn them into Storm Trooper transports.

So we had thought of the Transport Speeder thing, but not for Deathwatch.

I am really looking forward to it. I play a 90% scout army and I'm really looking forward to this toy.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
I had also thought about the Dreadnought issue. There is no 'Deathwatch Chapter' per se, they're a collection of other Chapters brought together. There is no formal organisation, everything is ad hoc, and they're brought together where needed. If one of them was killed (or close to) to the point where he would be interred in a Dreadnought's sarcophagus, wouldn't he just go back to the Chapter he came from?

In most cases, yeah, he probably would.

But let's step back for a second - isn't the idea of a Deathwatch Dread with all sorts of funky, high-tech Ordo Xenos gear too much to pass up? Isn't that image cool enough to justify ignoring what would probably happen and just include it anyway? I think it is.

Oh I'm really tempted by the idea, I can't quite get over the idea of a chapter giving away what would be a good dreadnought or good marine for a dreadnought. That aside I think the unit fits the bill as a viable DW vehicle. On the assumption we can work out the concept I think the unit would be 0-1 in line with a venerable dreadnought and no option to take non-venerables.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
As far as a completely new vehicle... the game's crowded enough as it is. Even the Repressor is kind've redundant in Sob armies as they can get Rhinos and Immolators. I would say Deathwatch should just keep the two main staples - Rhinos and Land Raiders (and crazy-cool Ordo Xenos enhanced Dreads!!! ). Given their ad hoc nature, I just think that keeping armouries of unique vehicles would be impractical. Might as well keep it simple - and it don't get much more simple than the Rhino. Hell, you could even say that ancient and holy Land Raiders were good enough to enact tours with the Deathwatch themselves - their Machine Spirits are sentient (or near enough to) afterall.

I think the repressor can be solved by giving ordos the option to purchase a pintel mounted flamer/heavy flamer (whichever the repressor has). The Immolator is really just a Razorback upgrade so I don't see that as being all that unique. DW have access to Rhinos and Razorbacks and all three ordos have landraider access.

the man behind the curtain wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:My idea for a Deathwatch Landspeeder is the Land Speeder Torrent; it has a heavy bolter in front with typhoon missile pods (both weapons with DW ammo) also the speeder would have an ability similar to that of the new Land Speeder Storm where by it can scramble enemy deepstrikes increasing the enemies deviation roles. Though some other unique ability might be better to make it more distinct, such as allowing them to deep strike.

I have no problem with a Deathwatch Land Speeder, I just don't see why it'd be any different to regular Land Speeders except for the scramble effect, as that ties into the 'high-tech' thing I talked about earlier. Actually, I'm warming to the idea of Deathwatch Land Speeders, maybe not as a transport (just can't see it flying with 5 power armour guys + crew + weapons), but let's not throw out the idea of the Deathwatch Dread!!!

I'm thinking on this and with kill teams and centurions deep striking that a deep striking land speeder seems appropriate. Representing its ability to fly higher than the average speeder and swooping down. I don't think its too crazy, it can further stay in character with DW ammo. It then has the scramblers reducing the enemies ability to call for help so to speak. I think it adds distinction to DW over GK, a distinction thats need is compounded by them being in the same book.

the man behind the curtain wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I agree this is a good and reasonable addition seeing as the Sternguard Vets have similar options.

I was quite surpised by the Sternguard ammo options actually. Guess we'll see in a few months if they have any good ideas and I'll just pilfer from them for my own Codex. D

The rumored sternguard ammo is:
Dragonfire Bolts:
Range 24" S4 AP 5 Rapid Fire Ignores Cover*
*Ignores Cover: Cover saves cannot be taken against Dragonfire Bolts

Hellfire Rounds: For heavy bolter As it is in the DW rules.

Kraken Bolts:
Range 30" S 4 AP 4 Rapid Fire

Vengeance Bolts:
Range 18" S 4 AP 3 Rapid Fire Gets Hot!

I think it works because there are distinct trade offs. Dragon Fire is the standard round replacing the standard bolter profile; Kraken less strength longer range; Vengence short range high AP, gets hot. They get all three rounds as standard and are able to choose from them each time they shoot.

the man behind the curtain wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think the DW Terminator unit should be able to take combi-weapons for ammo access but should also have the different Terminator assault squad weapon options. I think missile ammo also helps zero in on the main DW Term. squads heavy weapon without adding a new weapon (like a heavy bolter which isn't appropriate).

I think missile launchers with special shots is a good idea though how it'd be represented is hard, like a missile launcher with a plasma missile would function just like a plasma cannon and that'd be a little wrong. A melta-missile is more reasonable but would also be hard without making the missile launcher into a missile launcher-multimelta combo. A special missile would need to be conceptualized with a specific purpose that fits the DW mission without being over the top. My thought is this: fluff dictates that needler based weapons are the choice weapons of the Ordo Xenos, so how about a missile that fires a pack of needler flechettes instead of a frag shot.
It would add this to the list of missiles: (Needler Flechette Missile) 48" SX AP6 Heavy 1 Blast, Pinning.

As it happens, I already wrote down a few very basic ideas for different ammo types. Let me just find them... ok, here we go. Generally speaking the idea was to have different ammunition types to deal with different types of Xenos, again, emphasising the high-tech nature of the Deathwatch and the Ordos Xenos in general:

Mk. III Hellfire Shell - Anti-Tyranid

Contains mutagenic acid and other toxins, designed specifically to fight against the Tyranid menace. As a side effect, it is also very effective against non-Tyranids. Hellfire weapons always wound on a 2+, regardless of the type of target being shot at.

I see where you're going with that. The name and concept I think are too much a like to the heavy bolter round, everyone would just take missile launchers and ignore the heavy bolter. Let's keep the ideas rolling.

I was thinking on the ML that we should have two missiles that supersede Krak and Frag. My idea for a needler flechette missile that kinda airburst above an enemy might work to supersede the frag missile.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
Hellfire Bolter
R30 S4 AP3 Assault 1

...

Ignis Missile
R48 S5 AP4 Assault 1/Blast/Ignores Cover Saves

And the other two, and these haven't had rules written, were the Mk.VI Vanus Shells (designed to stun psykers - anti-Eldar shells) and the Mk.IX Tabidus Shells, which were Acid shells designed to eat away at Necrons, ignoring WBB and doing loads of damage (also decent against vehicles).

Now the biggest problem was how do you work these shells into the list?

Wow, I think your ammo choices has some good ideas behind them I just think its a bit too much and the cries of cheese would be heard from the rooftops.

One thing to realize is that with Sternguard they have access to all ammo and can decide which one they want to use each turn. With that in mind all ammo should be less extreme where selection has tactical trade off and gains. Take this for example, it has a great AP but also "get hot!":
Vengeance Bolts:
Range 18" S 4 AP 3 Rapid Fire Gets Hot!

I think making ammo in line with these is the best approach; where all weapons come standard with a selection of ammo that player can choose to use each turn. Purchasing ammo in the way it appears in the DW Kill Team rules work with one squad but with a whole army could get cumbersome.

The advantage against certain races come from each ammo's strong point. I see it more a matter of fluff.

I say we use the Sternguard ammo, we add maybe one more choice for bolters. I say the Heavy Bolter is fine with its choice of standard fire and hellfire ammo; missile launcher with two missiles. More than this and it would be too much book keeping. DW would be called cheesy where four weapons could have some 4 or 5 different statlines.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
If they're taken indivudually (ie. you have a choice between the different shell types), then they're useless as you just take the best general ammo type and go from there. The other idea was to have the special ammo as a unit upgrade (ie. for +25 points per squad, they may have Augmented Munitions for their Bolt Pistols, Bolters, Combi-Weapons, Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Missile Launchers and Cyclone Missile Launchers) and then depending on who you were fighting, you'd just get that ammo. So if you were fighting Eldar, any unit that took 'Augmented Munitions' would be assumed to have the Mk.VI Vanus Shells. If you came up against Tyranids, everyone who you'd given Autmented Munitions to would automatically have Mk.III Hellfire Shells.

The problem with that idea is twofold:

1. What if you come up against Marines (is there an anti-Marine round? Should there be an anti-Marine round? Do you just let the Deathwatch player pick any ammo type when playing non-Xenos?)?
2. How do you cost this as it is essentially a form of prescribed and encouraged 'list tailoring', something I've never liked.

Anyway, those were my original ideas on the subject. It's not a case of giving Plasma and Melta missiles to Missile Launchers/Cyclone Launchers. It's a matter of adapting the fancy bolter rounds for general use with Missile Weapons, something that, I think, is more realistic and far more fitting for the Deathwatch.

With the sternguard style of unit organization ammo is always available and can be switched out on a turn to turn basis.
1) The Sternguard vengence shell is AP3 but gets hot.
2) The unit then becomes a fixed cost per marine since he always has the right ammo, this stream lines playability. Sternguard are suppose to be around 23pts/model. I think its important to keep it simple.

I think I'd be more comfortable with having distinct ammo for bolters, distinct ammo for heavy bolters, and distinct missiles for missile launchers. Other wise you create a situation like you point out where there is a clear hierarchy of effectiveness where a missile launcher is better than a heavy bolter so no one takes heavy bolters.

the man behind the curtain wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:With the Ordo Xeno's close tie to the adeptus mechanicus the DW Annihilus squads would benefit from the same sort of tech Techmarines have. The backpack's sensor looks similar to signums worn by techmarines on their helmets. Signum conferees one re-roll a turn in shooting, that sounds good and simple to me.

That's the idea I was getting at.

aka_mythos wrote:Like I said above I think a dreadnought is more the realm of Grey Knights

Ah c'mon - don't you want a Dread with some fancy old-tech weapons on it, special munitions (there's a new Dread with a Hurricane Bolter coming out soon - imagine that with Augmented Munitions!!!). Admit it, a Deathwatch Dread is cool.

BYE

It'd be cool, but I think we could do better.

I think to proceed we can add one new bolter ammo choice to the Sternguard list and use that as the basis for Deathwatch ammo. I think the heavy bolter with suspensor and hellfire round is fairly well established I don't think we need to add more. The missile launcher needs I think two rounds, I still think my idea is solid and that we can adapt one of your many ideas to it.

I think the best approach for the Dreadnought vs. Landspeeder choice is to write up rules for both and to see which one fits in with DW best in game play. In both cases the vehicles would have basic DW ammo with high tech perks.

I think the Centurion squad and the Annihilus squad are straight forward with simple perks. Down side to Annihilus team should be they have none of the close combat weapon options.

Just like how SoB and GK got army wide rules DW needs the same. I mentioned "The Eternal Vigil" giving accute sense.
The other rule that needs to be addressed is the fact that they are alien hunters. If they hunted a specific xenos this would mean they should have "Preferred Enemy" xenos. The problem is that giving this to them against all aliens goes too far. My thought is since they are sent out to hunt the big threats they should have "Preferred Enemy" Monstorus Creatures/Xenos. A slight gain showing how they go headhunting things like Hive Tyrants, C'Tan, etc.
The DW Killteam and Centurions can deep strike some rule tying into that aspect might be appropriate.

With the rules I wrote for the various munition types I tried to keep a distinction between what the Missile Launcher and Heavy Bolter did.

For example, the Tempest Bolts (which are just flechette rounds mixed with 40K's version of Metal Storm) give the Heavy Bolter 10 shots, wheras the ML is a large blast (which is pretty potent against big groups of orks in the open). Whereas the Hellfire Rounds differ greatly, with the Heavy Bolter acting as a blast to take out groups of lesser creatures, whereas the Missile Launcher is a single-hit device for taking out big tyranid Nasties.

Plus, as I designed it as a squad upgrade (and not something you swapped out between turns), I wanted to keep each type the same - if everyone has Vanus shells, then everyone has Vanus shells, end of story - and it affects all weapons equally (with the exception of any Flamer, Melta or Plasma based weapons).


The Sternguard ammo just achieves a similar result without any real focus. And Gets Hot! is just their attempt at balancing it, and I think it's a clunky one at that.


As far as Preferred Enemy goes, that is a tough one. As you said, is just giving them 'Preferred Enemy - Aliens' balanced? I like the idea of specific head-hunter units.

Also remember the Deathwatch Assault Squad. Can we think of a cool name for them?

BYE

Modquisition Mode:
In the immortal words of Chef (pours one for the cartoon homeys that have gone before)
1) "Childrens lets play nice now. Everyone please maintain the politeness and argue the merits not personalities." That means you and you know who you are (and the Shadow knows, but that is a given).

2) This is the proposed rules thread. The form of the proposed codex, its merits, and fluff underpinnings are free for debate. If you do not believe there should be a proposed Inquisition Codex or part of it, or want to debate how much GW would accept such a codex then this is not the appropriate forum for you.

Modquisition Mode off.

the man behind the curtain wrote:With the rules I wrote for the various munition types I tried to keep a distinction between what the Missile Launcher and Heavy Bolter did.

For example, the Tempest Bolts (which are just flechette rounds mixed with 40K's version of Metal Storm) give the Heavy Bolter 10 shots, wheras the ML is a large blast (which is pretty potent against big groups of orks in the open). Whereas the Hellfire Rounds differ greatly, with the Heavy Bolter acting as a blast to take out groups of lesser creatures, whereas the Missile Launcher is a single-hit device for taking out big tyranid Nasties.

I understand that there was a distinction in that they each retained dependent on the use of their constituent weapon. I guess my point was more that I think the even if in concept the ammo for the Missile and Heavy Bolter were similar that there would be less of a direct connection stat wise and maybe a different name. An example is th This goes to the fact that I think a lean and mean approach to DW's ammo works better. Take metal-storm ammos, it is effectively an air bursting frag bolter round but by its stats on par to a shotgun and not a frag grenade.

I didn't address your ammo options more directly because I was about to go to sleep when I responded, so let me do that now:

the man behind the curtain wrote: Mk. III Hellfire Shell - Anti-Tyranid

Contains mutagenic acid and other toxins, designed specifically to fight against the Tyranid menace. As a side effect, it is also very effective against non-Tyranids. Hellfire weapons always wound on a 2+, regardless of the type of target being shot at.

Hellfire Bolter R30 S4 AP3 Assault 1

Hellfire Storm Bolter R30 S4 AP3 Assault 2/Twin-Linked

Hellfire Heavy Bolter R36 S5 AP3 Assault 1/Blast

Hellfire Missile R48 S8 AP3 Assault 1

(Aside: A couple of things above the above. In 40K Revisited, ranges are inreased somewhat, so Bolters have a standard range of 30", not 24". Additionally, Storm Bolters have had the Twin-Linked rule added on to make them superior to Combi-Bolters, something they're not currently at 12" or less, which never made any sense as they're supposed to be the next generation of combi-bolters. The heavy weapons are also all 'Assault' rather than 'heavy' as all Deathwatch have suspensors, and the 'half-range = assault rather than heavy' is clunky and unnecessary when it's much easier to just make the weapon Assault rather than Heavy, period.)

I was going to comment on the range, so for the purposes of the Codex:Inquisition, they should be brought in line with what is to be expected with 40k and not 40k Revisited. I don't think there should be bolter/stormbolter rounds immediately like this; the fluff for the hellfire heavy round says it is the most compact round of it kind. So When I brought up the Sternguard ammo I was just pointing out the trade offs involved, we don't have to follow exactly. For example what you have above is just like the vengeance bolt round without gets hot and almost double the range. I think for standard 40k ignoring the 1/2 range to use the weapon as an assault weapon and just make it assault you make to drastic a departure from the weapon being a heavy bolter. Also hellfire has been established as having AP 4 and is going to be in the Codex: SM with that same stat.

The assault/24 is what makes the Storm Bolter better than a Combi-bolter. The assault stat of the storm bolter shows it fires like a bullet hose with the range and accuracy of a rifle while combi-bolter with rapid fire is more an assault rifle with its "twin-linked" nature representing a three-round burst sort of slower fire. Thats where the technological distinction lies: storm bolter has less recoil and can be used like a submachine gun but with a rifles advantages while the older combi-bolter fires more slowly and requires one to better aim because they are throwing out as many individual shells.

That being said it is also a combi-bolters slower rate of fire why the DW would use it over a stormbolter; the slower stable fire makes it more ideal for delivering exotic ammo; where the adeptus mechanicus might want to see every round count.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
Mk.XII Tempest Shells - Anti-Ork

These shells replace their mass reactive explosive with a proximity sensing charge. The explosive charge is increased and internal casing is replaced with material that fragments that, when they detonate, create a shower of debris that is extremely deadly to troops with low armour protection.

Tempest Bolter
R30 S4 AP5 Assault 4

Tempest Storm Bolter
R30 S4 AP5 Assault 4/Twin-Linked

Tempest Heavy Bolter
R36 S5 AP4 Assault 10

Tempest Missile
R48 S4 AP5 Assault 1/Large Blast

I think designing a different bolt for each alien goes too far. Make a set of rounds, where each is designed for a general sort of enemy: high strength for high toughness enemies; long range for heavy shooting enemies; high AP armored enemies; and an anti-swarm round. But don't just make them directly anti-tyranid, anti-ork etc. The DW while they do fight those enemies, their primary goal is fighting the bigger aliens.

Assault 4? Assault 4 twin linked... this better be for a game of Apocalypse. 40K uses an abstract system for its number of shots and the weapon value, ie an assault cannon firing some 6000 rounds per minute is s6 ap4 heavy 4 rending. So there needs to be a better justification for you making a heavy bolter better than a Gatling mega-bolter a superheavies main gun.

the man behind the curtain wrote:
Mk.XXVI Ignis Shells - Anti-Tau

Designed to fight against the Tau and instil fear and confusion in their ranks, these shells replace their mass reactive explosive with a proximity sensing charge. The shells detonate before hitting their targets, unleashing waves of electricity. The effect both inflicts damage on enemy combatants as well as scouring the air of any airborne pheromone traces. Tau subject to these types of shells are left confused without their pheromone-based command system, and often flee. Tau units hit by Ignis Shells must always take a Morale Check, with their Leadership Value reduced by –1 for every models killed by the Ignis rounds.

Ignis Bolter
R30 S5 AP5 Rapid Fire

Ignis Storm Bolter
R30 S5 AP5 Assault 4/Twin-Linked

Ignis Heavy Bolter
R36 S5 AP4 Assault 3

Ignis Missile
R48 S5 AP4 Assault 1/Blast/Ignores Cover Saves

As I said above this goes off the deep end and gives them each a watered down heavy weapon. Sternguard have less powerful ammo choices and cost 23 points... each one of your ammo choices would make a DW cost 35 points or so. The rate of fire needs to be adjusted for your weapons because even when the hellfire heavy bolter round is used it has roughly the same number of posssible hits it can inflict.

FWIW, I agree with Stelek that Deathwatch and Grey Knights have been incorporated into the pending SM Codex:

Sternguard Veterans wearing black armor with a silver shoulderpad are also known as "Deathwatch".

Vanguard Veterans wearing silver armour are also known as "Grey Knights".

Therefore, they can be pulled from Codex: Inquisition.

jfrazell wrote:2) This is the proposed rules thread. The form of the proposed codex, its merits, and fluff underpinnings are free for debate. If you do not believe there should be a proposed Inquisition Codex or part of it, or want to debate how much GW would accept such a codex then this is not the appropriate forum for you.

If we believe that Codex: Inquisition should be more narrowly-focused and supplemented by a well-defined Codex: Sisters of Battle, is this still the appropriate forum?

JohnHwangDD wrote:FWIW, I agree with Stelek that Deathwatch and Grey Knights have been incorporated into the pending SM Codex:

Sternguard Veterans wearing black armor with a silver shoulderpad are also known as "Deathwatch".

Vanguard Veterans wearing silver armour are also known as "Grey Knights".

Therefore, they can be pulled from Codex: Inquisition.

Sternguard come close to representing Deathwatch, but unlike Deathwatch Sternguard do not have access to power weapons, power fists, lightning claws... etc.
Sternguard are not led by a Captain.
A deathwatch force can field up to 6 deathwatch squads which are scoring units, a sternguard squad is not a scoring unit.
Sterguard can not deep strike, Deathwatch can.
Sternguard do not have true grit, deathwatch does.

Vanguard do not have nemesis force weapons.
Vanguard have jump packs, grey knights don't.
Grey Knights have psyker powers, Vanguard do not.
Grey Knights have psy-cannons, Vanguard do not.
Grey Knights have Aegis suits, Vanguard do not.

aka_mythos wrote:The Inquisitor game came first establishing much of the fluff used in both inquisition codices. They were added into Codices because of their popularity.

That is totally untrue.

Rogue Trader predates Inquisitor by a very, very long time. The RT rulebook covers the Inquisition at a high level, and pictures a Battle Sister (SoB changed, just like SM and Eldar changed). Grey Knights date back to the Rogue Trader era, with their initial Fluff and army list being presented in one of the Realms of Chaos books. And don't forget the old "ninja" Assassin!

Second Edition provides the first Codex: Sisters of Battle, along with Assassins, and the well-known Ordos are clarified: Malleus, Sicarus, Hereticus. Note also that Assassins hints at additional Temples, in the same way that Codex: Eldar hints at other Aspects. Also, the nature of the Inquistion means that the list of Ordos and Chambers Militant isn't fixed or definitive (lesser-known Ordos and Chambers are possible). The SoB and Assassins Fluff is awesome reading.

Third Edition largely duplicates Second Edition, with minimal changes. Grey Knights still aren't an army.

Inquisitior appears, and largely recycles the Fluff that came before. The real novelty is the Fluff concept of Radicals and Puritans. But the idea that Inquisitor comes first is patently false, except, perhaps when you're talking about Xenos and Deathwatch...

Fourth Edition sees the Inquistition come to the fore, with Sisters and GK folded into the new system, GK getting a half-assed effort at "making an army". Deathwatch shoulderpads and guns create a new Chamber out of thin air, with WD rules - their Fluff is not exciting, much less inspired.

If you're going to make such claims, at least back them up with real facts.

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:FWIW, I agree with Stelek that Deathwatch and Grey Knights have been incorporated into the pending SM Codex

Sternguard come close to representing Deathwatch,
Vanguard do not have nemesis force weapons.

For the most part, once you lead either unit with a Librarian, you solve most of the differences.

Someone please tell Jonny boy that we've since moved on from that discussion, and are now discussing the actual topic and therefore have no desire to see it derailed with his usual pedantic drivel.

BYE

aka_mythos wrote:This is a discussion on a comprehensive Codex: Inquisition, meant to combine all elements of the Codex Daemonhunters and Codex Witch Hunters while extrapolating elements for the Ordo Xenos into a single Codex to the exclusion of standard IG and SM forces. Codex: Imperium and Codex: Adeptus Sororitas discussion should be made in a new thread.

That may be what *you* want and how *you* see C: Inq. But Stelek, sourclams, and I all see C: Inq rather differently.

We don't believe that GK or DW are well-served by creating units out of thin air, when the Inquisition's native forces are limited. Furthermore, we don't believe that SoB are well-served by a structure that de-emphasizes them, given that they're a distinctive non-MEQ force.

IMO, I don't believe that C: Inq is well-served by focusing so heavily on MEQ elements, given that we have so many MEQ Codices out already. IMO, the last thing we need is yet another MEQ-heavy book.

And redefining the discussion to exclude all dissent or alternatives is pretty lame. The title is "Codex: Inquisition", not "Codex: Inquisition to be defined as 4 equivalent Chambers Militants excluding IG or SM Allies". Just because you don't like my vision for Codex: Inquisition, that doesn't make it a valid alternative that can't be discussed here.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The Inquisitor game came first establishing much of the fluff used in both inquisition codices. They were added into Codices because of their popularity.

That is totally untrue.

Rogue Trader predates Inquisitor by a very, very long time. The RT rulebook covers the Inquisition at a high level, and pictures a Battle Sister (SoB changed, just like SM and Eldar changed). Grey Knights date back to the Rogue Trader era, with their initial Fluff and army list being presented in one of the Realms of Chaos books. And don't forget the old "ninja" Assassin!

Yes thats true, it does predate it. I own and played Rogue Trader. I have those books as well. The thing is each edition since added to the fluff, but that Inquisitor made changes and additions to the fluff and that its that collective fluff that was used as a basis for the two Codices. I have 3 of those old ninja assassin's models.
It was during the rogue trader era that Grey Knights saw extensive representation in White Dwarf with an army list and much presence in Space Hulk.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Second Edition provides the first Codex: Sisters of Battle, along with Assassins, and the well-known Ordos are clarified: Malleus, Sicarus, Hereticus. Note also that Assassins hints at additional Temples, in the same way that Codex: Eldar hints at other Aspects. Also, the nature of the Inquistion means that the list of Ordos and Chambers Militant isn't fixed or definitive (lesser-known Ordos and Chambers are possible). The SoB and Assassins Fluff is awesome reading.

This is a good example of fluff that superseded RT era because till this point SoB had not been mentioned. It also must not have been all that clarified considering Ordo Xenos was mentioned before second edition as one of the primary Ordos of the Inquisition. The important note is that Codex: SoB was the first significant mention of the Ordo Hereticus.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Third Edition largely duplicates Second Edition, with minimal changes. Grey Knights still aren't an army.

True, but Grey Knights had already had a army list of sorts in white dwarf, though back in those days no army had much in the way of unit entries.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Inquisitior appears, and largely recycles the Fluff that came before. The real novelty is the Fluff concept of Radicals and Puritans. But the idea that Inquisitor comes first is patently false, except, perhaps when you're talking about Xenos and Deathwatch...

Fourth Edition sees the Inquistition come to the fore, with Sisters and GK folded into the new system, GK getting a half-assed effort at "making an army". Deathwatch shoulderpads and guns create a new Chamber out of thin air, with WD rules - their Fluff is not exciting, much less inspired.
If you're going to make such claims, at least back them up with real facts.

I never claimed it came first. I claimed that it established much of the fluff GW supports today. I'm looking at my copy of Inquisitor and all the companion books the fluff is mildly different from the Inquisition before. Before Inquisitor the concept of Inquisition was that of a large monolithic entity. It established the sub-factions and ideological conflicts that exist. This is where the idea for all the inquisition retinue member come from for the Daemonhunter and Witchhunter codex come from, also where the sister repentia, arco-flagellent, the death cult assassins originate.

Deathwatch are not mentioned as a Space Marine unit until early 4th edition, true. The Ordo Xenos however was a big deal in Rogue Trader, Inquisitor Cryptman was regularly occurring in White Dwarf articles for the Ordo Xenos and in one such article a mention of a group called 'deathwatch' is made without explanation.

You shouldn't sell WD articles short, WD was the origin of many units and armies that before their debut in WD did not exist. GK, Necrons, Commisars, Land Raider, Vindicator sand many many more started out as WD articles, that had much more added to them as years went on. They appeared in WD first and then only later core books.

I originally said:

Sternguard come close to representing Deathwatch, but unlike Deathwatch Sternguard do not have access to power weapons, power fists, lightning claws... etc.
Sternguard are not led by a Captain.
A deathwatch force can field up to 6 deathwatch squads which are scoring units, a sternguard squad is not a scoring unit.
Sterguard can not deep strike, Deathwatch can.
Sternguard do not have true grit, deathwatch does.

Vanguard do not have nemesis force weapons.
Vanguard have jump packs, grey knights don't.
Grey Knights have psyker powers, Vanguard do not.
Grey Knights have psy-cannons, Vanguard do not.
Grey Knights have Aegis suits, Vanguard do not.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:FWIW, I agree with Stelek that Deathwatch and Grey Knights have been incorporated into the pending SM Codex

Sternguard come close to representing Deathwatch,
Vanguard do not have nemesis force weapons.

For the most part, once you lead either unit with a Librarian, you solve most of the differences.

Attaching one Librarian to one squad does not change the fact that the full GK squad is supposed to be armed with Aegis Suits and Nemesis Force weapons.
Attaching a Librarian does not change the fact that Sternguard do not have access to the full array of close combat weapons.
It does not change the fact that Vanguard and Sternguard are not scoring units while GK and DW would be.
Vanguards still don't have psy-cannons.
Grey Knights still don't were jump packs.
Sternguard and Vanguard do not have "True Grit"

Solve all that for those two units.

He can't Mythos. He'll just restate his position for the thousandth time and nothign will be achieved. Ferrous Cranus in extremis!!

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:This is a discussion on a comprehensive Codex: Inquisition, meant to combine all elements of the Codex Daemonhunters and Codex Witch Hunters while extrapolating elements for the Ordo Xenos into a single Codex to the exclusion of standard IG and SM forces. Codex: Imperium and Codex: Adeptus Sororitas discussion should be made in a new thread.

That may be what *you* want and how *you* see C: Inq. But Stelek, sourclams, and I all see C: Inq rather differently.

We don't believe that GK or DW are well-served by creating units out of thin air, when the Inquisition's native forces are limited. Furthermore, we don't believe that SoB are well-served by a structure that de-emphasizes them, given that they're a distinctive non-MEQ force.

IMO, I don't believe that C: Inq is well-served by focusing so heavily on MEQ elements, given that we have so many MEQ Codices out already. IMO, the last thing we need is yet another MEQ-heavy book.

And redefining the discussion to exclude all dissent or alternatives is pretty lame. The title is "Codex: Inquisition", not "Codex: Inquisition to be defined as 4 equivalent Chambers Militants excluding IG or SM Allies". Just because you don't like my vision for Codex: Inquisition, that doesn't make it a valid alternative that can't be discussed here.

That is what the original poster wanted. It the whole reason the thread was started. You, stelek, and sourclams have made it clear that you don't want to talk about what everyone else does. The idea was to take what GW has said about their intent with this codex and see if it can be done; that is what the original poster intended.

We have not pulled a single GK unit out of thin air. Every one of their units is one that appears in their book.

DW, we have proposed rules for a broader range of units, to give DW the same treatment GK recieved in the daemonhunters codex. All done in the attempt to create a codex: Inquisition that provides for each ordo a viable militant arm and give as equal a representation as possible.

The whole point of this Codex: Inquisition is to combine would be three kinda MEQ armies that are fairly similar into a single codex. Also how are SoB not MEQ they have power armor and bolters... sounds like a marine; they have jump pack troops, they use rhinos... how many similarities counts as too similar? And how many differences do they have to have to be distinct?

The exclusion of IG and SM allies is because neither army is strictly a part of the Inquisition.

The moment you stated your idea of the codex was a Codex: SoB with a single DW and GK unit that was when your "vision" became off topic and a second thread was appropriate.

I think we should have a new Codex, just for John:

Codex: Generic Imperium

HQ:
Generic Human Commander
Generic Space Marine Commander
Generic Inquisitor

Elites:
Generic Special Character
Generic Terminators
Generic Assassins
Generic Elite Power Armour
Generic Elite Humans

Troops:
Generic Humans
Generic Power Armour
Summoned Daemons

Fast Attack:
Generic Jump Packers
Generic Bikes

Heavy Support:
Generic Tank
Generic Artillery
Generic Walker

All of these units would be armed with a variety of Generic Pistols, Generic Rifles, Gattling-Generic Cannons, Generic Cannons, Heavy Generic Cannons, Long-Ranged Generic Cannons and Twin-Linked Generic Cannons.

Actually... there's too much variety in that list. Should just be:

Generic HQ
Generic Elites
Generic Troops
Summoned Daemons
Generic Fast Attack
Generic Heavy Support

6 different army list entries, very easy to understand. Fits all the design goals Jonny-boy wants.

BYE

This has really turned into a train wreck, and no one is getting anywhere.

If you'd like to continue discussing this topic, please start a new (or two new, rather) threads on this topic.