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Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/11 14:30:26


Post by: SuCHaR


Did anyone hear sometingh about IG codex? Any rumors what will be changed? Maybe possible date of release?
Hope somebody help me :]
Regards.

Edited for spelling/clairity.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/11 14:33:16


Post by: Lormax


Your internet shorthand has left my head hurting


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/11 15:25:00


Post by: Ahtman


Lormax wrote:Your internet shorthand has left my head hurting


I concur. At first I thought maybe "sth" was a typo but it's also in the thread so i am not sure what is being asked specifically.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/11 15:49:24


Post by: Negativemoney


I have to agree.

Please no more shorthand.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/11 19:26:10


Post by: Hammerziet


SuCHaR wrote:Did anyone hear sth about IG codex? Any rumors what will be changed? Maybe possible date of release?
Hope smb help me :]
Regards.


For those who don't speak internet I'm assuming he means...

Did anyone hear SOMTHING about IG codex? Any rumors what will be changed? Maybe a possible date of release? Hope SOMEBODY will help me :]

But yeah shorthand is annoying and an interesting sidenote the correct shorthand translation of SMB is "suck my balls" which i really hope he didn't mean


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/11 19:27:54


Post by: Tribune


Nah, my ForumSpeak3000 translated it as:

'Hello, I don't understand the purpose of the News & Rumours forum. Please make sarcastic replies and then lock my thread'


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/11 21:04:30


Post by: grizgrin


Well, now that the OT has been translated. Anyone got any data on it?


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/11 22:04:34


Post by: Leggy


Awww, and i thought this was rumours about sith in the IG codex :( After yoda and Vader in Soul Calibour 4, its even vaguely possible. Lucas will pimp his I.P. out for hugs and biscuits.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/11 22:08:35


Post by: MagickalMemories


Really?

I give GREAT hugs... and my wife could make some biscuits...

Hmm.... Ideas churning already...


Eric


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 03:02:40


Post by: Battle Foam


Stupid thread not going anywhere. Some IG info would be nice.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 03:10:37


Post by: Lorek


There's nothing solid from GW yet. Rumors are floating around that there will be plastic greatcoat guardsmen, with which you can make Valhallans and Deathguard with a simple headswap. New unified Russ kits are also rumored (LRBT, Demolisher, and any other variants in one box).

I don't know anything about the timetable.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 03:13:06


Post by: AgeOfEgos


This was from Dosadi on Seer (Who is pretty damn reliable):




Army wide special rule: I think it’s called Platoon Drill or something like that. Basically, units from the same platoon may ignore intervening squads when shooting. So enemy units targeted in this way do not receive the 4+ save. Apparently this only works if the Platoon command squad is alive and within 12” of the rest of the platoon. I’ve been told that this is just one of the abilities guard Platoons may get, but only as long as the chain of command is intact (whatever that means). So loosing your HQ Command Squad may be a really bad thing.

Doctrines are for sure gone (I think we all knew this), but have been replaced by more mutable platoons. Instead of Armoured fist squads you can buy Chimeras for a whole platoon. Or buy the whole platoon grav-chutes to give them deep strike, or drop the heavy weapons from squads and give the platoon Scout. Veteran squads become upgrades to platoons (i.e. they are not elites anymore).

Apparently infantry platoons let you attach certain types of support vehicles to them(kinda like back in second edition). Things like sentinels, hellhounds and demolishers can be attached to platoons. They still take up a FOC spot, but become part of the platoon and so will benefit from the Platoon Drill rule.

The Leman Russ can be bought as a squadron so you can get 3 for a single FOC. They can not be attached to platoons however.

Sniper Squads can now infiltrate, get stealth, range finders and all models in the squad have sniper rifles (and BS 4!).

Like the Land Raider, a new plastic sprue for the Leman Russ has been made that will allow plastic demolishers and a 3rd variant (my money is on the Exterminator).

The Baneblade in NOT in the new codex. It just doesn’t work (i.e. overpowered)in games that are not Apocalypse in size.

However Stormtrooper squads can now take Valkyries as transports. Both will be getting a plastic kit. Valkyries follow the rules for skimmers I’ve been told. Again, they want to keep flyers and super heavies out of “normal games” but give people the ability to use them with all the special rules in Apocalypse and Planet-strike (if the ever get around to that.)

This last one makes me wonder what’s they are doing, but apparently there is a new HQ in the book; Inquisitor and Retinue much like the elites from the current Daemon Hunters/Witch Hunters books.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 03:23:27


Post by: Drake_Marcus


Ok guys- I edited the chatspeak out...

As far as this thread goes- Age of Egos' summary is an A+.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 04:19:27


Post by: grizgrin


Wow. Think they want to offload some Leman Russ kits? THat sounds like an opportunity for a lot of vehicles running about. Platoon Drill sounds nice too. Too bad IG are going ot actually start having to pay points for some of the things they currently get for free (drop troops). Now, how best to hide that command structure.

Who is writing codex IG? I wonder how much influence Alessio will have here, and how much he will choose ot exert.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 05:30:53


Post by: warpcrafter


You want a sarcastic reply to netspeak? That's like asking a Human to deliver witty retorts to a barking dog.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 05:52:01


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Won't Russ Squadrons suffer from the same problems as current vehicle squadrons ie. immobilised = death?

That seems like a bad trade to me.

Anyway, I look forward to lots of pendulum swinging in the next Guard Codex. 25 point powre fists, 15 point Plasma Guns - maybe even 30 point Lascannons. 7 point Guardsmen (as they'll give them Frag Grenades as standard).

On the bright side, some things will better. If there's a new Chimera kit, Chimeras will get better. If there's a new Hellhound kit, Hellhounds will get better. The mutable platoon rules sound great (and are the correct way to do Doctrines). Storm Troopers might become useful, especially if there's a plastic kit. New Commissar models (which is always good - I love Commissars even if their rules are sh!t).

If there isn't a new Hellhound kit through, woe betide the Inferno Cannon - back to standard flamer rules for you!!!

BYE


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 06:29:03


Post by: Valhallan42nd


I am afraid that the Hellhound will get nerfed. Again, I've not heard anything that suggests it might be nerfed, but it's so good now... And GW does have a habit of what goes up in utility must come back down again.

Who knows though? They might make it auto-break troops again...


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 07:10:21


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I'm betting Jervis simply cannot wait to put the 'glancing = penetrating' rule back in for Hellhounds.

I think he just salivates in general about all the Codices he can make revert back to their original 3rd Ed versions.

BYE


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 07:18:00


Post by: SuCHaR


Have you heard anythink that Armoured Company will be banned ?? Someboyd told me that is going to be forbiddnen and I do not know is it true.
Regards.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 07:32:06


Post by: Teh_K42


The Guard Codex is being written by a new guy named Robin Cruddace. He promises lots more tanks.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 08:03:52


Post by: BrookM


Storm troopers will finally be able to use shotguns and best of all, there will be models of Kasrkin with beefy M32 shotguns. Greens of a Kasrkin with said weapon float around on these series of tubes.

Buzz off, shotguns might not be powerful but they are fragging awesome.



Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 08:32:06


Post by: lalabox


according to the staff at my local store, there will be 'over 15' tanks. We managed to get that out of him after much probing. But there are already about 12 tanks already if you don't count a lot of the forge world stuff. Nothing else though.
Everyone goes on about guard getting a buggy, but they've already got the salamander. Which can easily be represented by a buggy model such as the converted land speeder that seemed to pop up everywhere when someone set up the thread IG humvee?


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 08:55:50


Post by: SuCHaR


Any chances to see the codex this year? Maybe for Christmas?


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 09:25:55


Post by: smiling Assassin


Oh my god.

My heart just skipped like... 2 beats thinking of an army all trooped out in Valkyries.

Plastic Stormtroopers = Godsend.

(Does somebody at GW finally care about normal humans?)

~sA


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 11:32:47


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Plastic Stormtroopers would be very nice, as I will be able to somehow mix them with the Cadian heavy weapon crews and the new Land Speeder Storm to create Speeder-borne Storm Troopers.

It'll be awesome.

BYE


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 11:51:10


Post by: Apone


SuCHaR wrote:Any chances to see the codex this year? Maybe for Christmas?


Not a chance. As Space Marines are coming out in October, and the next WHFB release will be after that (should be Warriors of Chaos).

So spring is the likely time for IG as they do seem to be next in line what with being mentioned in White Dwarf an all.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 12:04:45


Post by: SuCHaR


Apone wrote:
SuCHaR wrote:Any chances to see the codex this year? Maybe for Christmas?


Not a chance. As Space Marines are coming out in October, and the next WHFB release will be after that (should be Warriors of Chaos).

So spring is the likely time for IG as they do seem to be next in line what with being mentioned in White Dwarf an all.


Not good, not good

I repeat my question: does anyone heard any rumors about banned AC? Hope they'll not...
And 2nd thinks have you got more pictures of new Ig meybe like posted above?


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 12:17:05


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Not so much banned as forgotten, like Lost & the Damned and Kroot Mercs before them.

But unless there's an HQ choice that's a tank, or a mutable platoon selection for a squadron of Leman Russes, you can forget Armoured Company.

It's ok though. They can't actually win a game with 5th's new victory conditions, so it's no big loss. I say this as a man who owns 3 10-tank Leman Russ Squadrons...

BYE


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 12:26:15


Post by: smiling Assassin


H.B.M.C. wrote: I say this as a man who owns 3 10-tank Leman Russ Squadrons...


H.B.M.C., in the sA Book of Awesome, you have just moved up by a factor of 65. 30+ Russes = Ultimate Epic Automatic Awesome.

Keep on trackin',

~sA


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 15:48:12


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


We really need to get HBMC to post his army one of these days.

As for the IG codex news, yeah, sounds good.



Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 15:57:03


Post by: Valhallan42nd


Kid_Kyoto wrote:We really need to get HBMC to post his army one of these days.



We're going to need a bigger lens...


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 16:19:36


Post by: Apone


Valhallan42nd wrote:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:We really need to get HBMC to post his army one of these days.



We're going to need a bigger lens...





Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 16:25:51


Post by: Hammerziet


H.B.M.C. wrote:I say this as a man who owns 3 10-tank Leman Russ Squadrons...


...and my brain implodes


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 16:37:15


Post by: open_sketchbook


Well, Platoon Drill is all I really want. The ability to "rank up" my redcoats and fire through each other will be amazing. As I don't really use tanks anymore, I couldn't give a flying feth about them.

Looking at the new Space Marine codex, I seriously doubt they are trying to bring everything back to 3rd Edition. And if they were, than Guardsmen would go back to being 5 points!

Besides, if Guardsmen were somehow made to be worth 7 points, that feels about right to me as they are portrayed in the fluff. They're may be trillions upon trillions of guardsmen, but the galaxy is too big a place for them to wasted as Orks or Tyranids do, and a quick look through the Uplifting Primer's medical and equipment section, and the Munitorum Manual makes it clear guardsmen are a lot less expendable than they are made out to be. They are well trained, well equipped and well armed, and they would, for the most part, beat the snot out of any modern army. Their fatigues are as tough as kevlar vests for crying out loud! I stand by my opinion that the individual infantrymen of the Guard need a boost in something.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 18:50:03


Post by: aka_mythos


H.B.M.C. wrote:Won't Russ Squadrons suffer from the same problems as current vehicle squadrons ie. immobilised = death?

That seems like a bad trade to me.

Anyway, I look forward to lots of pendulum swinging in the next Guard Codex. 25 point powre fists, 15 point Plasma Guns - maybe even 30 point Lascannons. 7 point Guardsmen (as they'll give them Frag Grenades as standard).

On the bright side, some things will better. If there's a new Chimera kit, Chimeras will get better. If there's a new Hellhound kit, Hellhounds will get better. The mutable platoon rules sound great (and are the correct way to do Doctrines). Storm Troopers might become useful, especially if there's a plastic kit. New Commissar models (which is always good - I love Commissars even if their rules are sh!t).

If there isn't a new Hellhound kit through, woe betide the Inferno Cannon - back to standard flamer rules for you!!!

BYE


I wouldn't be surprised if the new codex is designed to shift the emphasis away from static Leman Russ gun lines. I think if we see squadroning of Leman Russ' we'll see a cost decrease. I have to say that if GW were wanting to promote Chimera and new hellhounds it would further reinforce reasoning behind deemphasizing the Leman Russ.


H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm betting Jervis simply cannot wait to put the 'glancing = penetrating' rule back in for Hellhounds.

I think he just salivates in general about all the Codices he can make revert back to their original 3rd Ed versions.

BYE


Lol... the whole "glancing=penetrating" never made sense, its an overly complicated way of treating a hellhound like it has less armor. Its a bunch of Hollywood explosions physics. I mean what does a hellhound use all its interior space for that requires external fuel tanks?

*shudder* third edition





Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 19:42:31


Post by: BrookM


From what I heard all AC lists are illegal and obsolete, all except for the one found in Imperial Armour 1, which nobody seems to have but me. And that list isn't exactly ideal as it is written by Warwick, who writes mighty fine lists, but overprices the FW units a little to be on the safe side to prevent idiots from calling BS, something he said himself.

As for the whole view GW has on the IG now, you can forget about the "cool" image that Abnett and other writers impressed on us through their novels and the current IG codex, the 5th edition rulebook makes it clear that Guard is once more expendable cannon fodder. Just look at that campaign breakdown, the kill-loss ratio alone makes it seem like the armies deployed are poorly led and poorly trained. Cadians, the poster child of the Imperial Guard are panned as narrow minded disciplinarians now.

And knowing that Jervis is still moving behind the scenes isn't much of a comfort at all, especially with the whole "back to the roots" crap that he keeps preaching.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 20:00:54


Post by: open_sketchbook


The rulebook is ALWAYS more depressing than the rest of the fluff. It's job is to focus on the 'grimdark' so that the basic feel of the universe is set, and from there other fluff brightens everything up a little. The 4th ed and 3rd ed are really miserable too, especially the 3rd ed discription of the Imperial Church and the 4th Ed info on daemons and the warp. If anything, the new marines look more technological, not less. I don't think it'll effect the Guard too much.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/12 20:06:41


Post by: grizgrin


You know, the AC may go the way of the LatD, but if these rumoprs concerning tanks are close to reality, then it'll be a relief to me. I always wondered why you could never field an armoured column. I think that being able to take a larger proportion of tanks will add some interesting builds. Of course such a list would have it's strngths and weaknesses, but it'll be cool.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 02:39:13


Post by: smart_alex


THose shotguns look awsome. Hopefully they will be a little better than S3.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 06:45:53


Post by: BrookM


Chances of us getting Manstopper rounds are slim to nil.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 09:00:57


Post by: smiling Assassin


Screw tanks.

It's all about AIR POWA.

No, really.

What's the use of a Chimera when you've got a f***ing VTOL to carry your lads about?


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 09:23:24


Post by: Leigen_Zero


assuming the rumor of 1-3 leman russ makes tank squadron, AC still viable by simply taking lots of tanks in your FA/HS choices, and mounting other squads in chimeras/valkyries


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 10:35:04


Post by: SuCHaR


Ok that's nice Another question: does anyone hear somethink about new units in Fast Attack choices? I heard somewhere that it would be somethink like jeep (similar to ork trukk)? Do you know somethink? And maybe other new units that you heard?
Regards.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 11:58:06


Post by: lalabox


@SuCHaR (and anyone who dares ask this question again): Guard have already got a buggy! It is called the salamander scout vehicle. There are rules for them on the uk gw site and in imperial armor. (Apparently IA lists them as 75 points while the site has them as 100). Jeeps as transports would be cool though, if only for small units such as command squads and elite units.
I'm guessing that they'll bring in more russ varients and then something from forgeworld that they can now make in plastic. Hopefully the planes, it'll be nice to get the actual rules for them.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 12:24:44


Post by: quietus86


the only one I hurde was still 60 points for guard but they get frag an flamer for free.
not sure if this is real but its the only one I have heard of and de new plastic planes


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 12:54:48


Post by: H.B.M.C.


What the hell do Guard need Frags for?

It's like when the current Codex came out, our dear departed friend Pete Haines mentioned in his designer notes that Guard could now get Krak Grenades, to which I'm sure there was a resounding "So?" from every Guard player out there.

Guard don't need Frag Grenades. We shouldn't be attacking people who are in cover unless it is with our guns.

As an aside, Kraks aren't so bad now, what with the new vehicles in HTH rules making anything with 2D6 penetration redundant.

BYE


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 13:20:36


Post by: Bob the Hobo


I hope the rumor of a fast, open-topped transport turns out to be something like a Deuce and a Half.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 14:18:03


Post by: SuCHaR


Ok, other question: does anyone hear, or knows somethink about plan of release codexes? In october we have SM and than? IG I suppose. And after that what? DH, Necrons, maybe DE?
Regards.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 14:20:39


Post by: H.B.M.C.


No.

We don't.

GW likes to be all secretive about what they're working on. They do this either because they enjoy listening to people whine about another possible Marine 'Dex, or they like to lessen the time between revealing a new Marine 'Dex and actually releasing a new Marine 'Dex.

BYE


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 14:30:28


Post by: ArbitorIan


I like the possible return to the 2ed Platoon-building rules, with all their 'attached' units. Much more fluffy, IMO



Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 14:38:03


Post by: H.B.M.C.


How would that work with the FOC?

A Command Squad, three Infantry Squads and 3 Hellhounds as a single Troops Choice?

BYE


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 15:40:22


Post by: ubermosher


H.B.M.C. wrote:Won't Russ Squadrons suffer from the same problems as current vehicle squadrons ie. immobilised = death?


I guess GW wants to unload a bunch of Track Guard bits. If Leman Russ squadrons happen, I'd like to think they'd get a rule or option (like track guards) to mitigate the immobilized = destroyed rule. If the reliable C: SM rumors are any indication, 5th edition armies will be heavily differentiated by their main rules exceptions.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 15:41:06


Post by: Death By Monkeys


'Course, that'd be overkill, but it'd be nice if they did that in such a way that it'd cut down on IG kill points.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 17:45:53


Post by: BrookM


Here's hoping for updated Rough Rider models.

And yes, we already have light vehicles, namely the Salamander and the Centaur, which is a fast and light APC that can carry five.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 17:52:46


Post by: Valhallan42nd


I'd kill for a plastic Centaur to be a codex option/plastic model.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 17:59:33


Post by: Death By Monkeys


BrookM wrote:And yes, Imperial Armor already has light vehicles, namely the Salamander and the Centaur, which is a fast and light APC that can carry five.

Fixed your typo.

Don't get me wrong, the Centaur model is nice and the rules are perfect for anyone who wants to build a Humvee or other jeep-like light vehicle for their Guard. But frankly, until these make it into a Guard codex, my utility for them is limited.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 18:54:32


Post by: quietus86


only think a now is that after marines its dark elf or space wolfs.
Most peaple in gw en interviews say dark eldar.
And on forums and romers to only bolters and whats it say space wolfs first.
demon hunters en witch hunters are sad to be last codex's to be remade that was sad in a interview from gw heard thay sad thay had a 5 years plan to do all codex's.


edit it to make is more logic and speling


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 21:41:35


Post by: BrookM


I'm sorry, whut?

And sorry for belonging to the "exclusives club" that is called FW.....


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 22:14:05


Post by: Death By Monkeys


BrookM wrote:I'm sorry, whut?

And sorry for belonging to the "exclusives club" that is called FW.....

Sorry, that was intended as a joke, not an attack. Even if you've got IA rules, not all opponents want to play against them. If you've got a play group that you can use IA rules, that's great. For me, I want to be able to play my army in local tourneys where IA rules aren't used. Consequently, as I build my armies and play them to get them tuned for a tournament, it doesn't do me any good to build it around some IA rules that I won't be able to use when I get to the tourney.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 22:51:41


Post by: quietus86


strage we play ai role's most of the time .
than again I play apoc most f the time omost evry weekand in gw is a apoc game lol


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 23:13:33


Post by: Lemartes


Besides, if Guardsmen were somehow made to be worth 7 points, that feels about right to me as they are portrayed in the fluff. They're may be trillions upon trillions of guardsmen, but the galaxy is too big a place for them to wasted as Orks or Tyranids do, and a quick look through the Uplifting Primer's medical and equipment section, and the Munitorum Manual makes it clear guardsmen are a lot less expendable than they are made out to be. They are well trained, well equipped and well armed, and they would, for the most part, beat the snot out of any modern army. Their fatigues are as tough as kevlar vests for crying out loud! I stand by my opinion that the individual infantrymen of the Guard need a boost in something.




A good start would be getting rid of thier flashlights/lasguns and going with assault rifles. Never made sense to me that they would field weak lasguns over cheap ammo throwing rifles down the field. If you invade a planet with no electricity how are you supposed to recharge your battery packs?


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/13 23:18:17


Post by: Death By Monkeys


Lemartes wrote:A good start would be getting rid of thier flashlights/lasguns and going with assault rifles. Never made sense to me that they would field weak lasguns over cheap ammo throwing rifles down the field. If you invade a planet with no electricity how are you supposed to recharge your battery packs?

Actually, according to the fluff, there's a variety of ways you can recharge your lasgun clip, not least of which is using a solar recharger or tossing it in an open fire (although this method, while one of the faster methods, is notorious for reducing the number of times you can recharge the clip and the total amount you can recharge). And for better or for worse, assault rifles - or autoguns in the 40k 'verse - have the same profile as lasguns, so you can change out flashlights for autoguns all you want. All you'll get is a different looking gun.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 01:27:24


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Lemartes wrote:A good start would be getting rid of thier flashlights/lasguns and going with assault rifles.

Because it's easier to make gunpowder and cast bullets?

Regardless, any assault rifles (Stubbers / Autogus) that the IG deemed suitable for regular use would end up having the following stats: R24" S3 AP- Rapid Fire.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 01:48:56


Post by: IGkid


I think that the strength should at least be 4, strength 3 is quite pathetic.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 01:52:01


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Guardsmen are pathetic, so it fits.

They just need to be priced correctly to represent their patheticness.

BYE


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 02:41:55


Post by: Jester


So high that no one dare buy them?



Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 03:06:59


Post by: aka_mythos


Well it is important to say Guardsmen are varying degrees of pathetic. I think the shear quantity of armies superior in physical prowess to an average humans some how make people forget that the average guardsman is armed and equipped comparably to a modern soldier. That it isn't as much about them being pathetic as it is that everything else is just that much better than a human.

IG are a smidgen overpriced so I'm not going to be surprised if they get some small additional base line rule. When I heard the rumors of some the new IG vehicles I really doubted it, but with all the new toys for SM I'm starting to believe it.



Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 04:23:28


Post by: Raxmei


IGkid wrote:I think that the strength should at least be 4, strength 3 is quite pathetic.
Strength 4 is what you get when a bolter round explodes inside you, reducing your torso to a fine mist. Or hundreds of monomolecular discs shred you beyond recognition in a fraction of a second. The weapon described as much like a modern heavy machine gtun is S4 Ap6. The weapon described as an assault rifle analogue has the stats 24" rapid fire S3 Ap-, and in context that is exactly what it should be.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 05:00:46


Post by: Rosicrucian


Autoguns, and lasguns have identical profiles in Necromunda and 2nd ed. 40k. The only difference is that lasguns are actually more reliable as reflected in their ammo roll in Necromunda.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 05:17:37


Post by: H.B.M.C.


They did have different profiles.

Lasguns were (ironically) better at punching through armour.

BYE


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 05:53:28


Post by: Rosicrucian


H.B.M.C. wrote:They did have different profiles.

Lasguns were (ironically) better at punching through armour.

BYE


Really? I didn't recall lasguns as having an armor save modifier. In any case, the point remains. In 40k land GW has consistently envisioned slug-thrower small arms as equal or worse to similar laser weaponry.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 07:06:55


Post by: JohnHwangDD


IGkid wrote:I think that the strength should at least be 4, strength 3 is quite pathetic.


I could see (and recommend) S4 Hellguns as standard kit for Stormtroopers.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 08:34:35


Post by: BrookM


Lasguns are the AK 47's of the 40k verse, Gav said it himself and Jes designed a lasgun variant that looks an awful lot like an AK. I mean, just like the AK you can toss it, dip it in a swamp, use it like a club, run over it with a truck, give it very low maintenance and it will still work. Plus power cells are lighter to carry and contain more shots, depending on the actual model of lasgun.

40k still has autoguns, but they are high-calibre caseless rifles with insane blowback on full auto. GW has a model of the autogun that looks like the M4 with a "grenade launcher" under the barrel, but in reality that thing is a heavy counter weight to hold the gun down a little when you fire it. (source: IA 5)

Now the storm bolters of Space Hulk, just like the first series of M16 rifles, jammed a lot for no real reason and made you want an enemy weapon instead or just make do with your power fist instead.

Fluff-nutting aside, part of me hopes for really good new stuff rule wise, but on the other hand I feel that we don't need a crapton of new rules and crap like the marines. I'd rather see the really old models replaced by new ones (priests and Rough Riders), that promised Valkyrie and fingers crossed, a new plastic regiment.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 08:35:09


Post by: lalabox


Look at =][= rules. Only in a system as detailed as that can you see the difference. Another thing I forgot to mention was that the codex is going to come out next year, probably near the beginning.
On a lighter note, on a thread on dysartes.com, called 'what would you like to see in the next guard codex' or something, someone said 'bring back the imperial beatmen!'.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 08:36:20


Post by: BrookM


The beat? I doubt the High Lords could dig that


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 09:06:46


Post by: SuCHaR


BrookM wrote:
Fluff-nutting aside, part of me hopes for really good new stuff rule wise, but on the other hand I feel that we don't need a crapton of new rules and crap like the marines. I'd rather see the really old models replaced by new ones (priests and Rough Riders), that promised Valkyrie and fingers crossed, a new plastic regiment.


Yeah I know what you mean, and I'm alco counting on it. I would like to see al leman russ varants in one box , and plastic valkiries and also DKOK Hope we'll se it soon.
Regards.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 09:28:16


Post by: Arctik_Firangi


H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm betting Jervis simply cannot wait to put the 'glancing = penetrating' rule back in for Hellhounds.

I think he just salivates in general about all the Codices he can make revert back to their original 3rd Ed versions.

BYE


Heh heh heh heh heh he.... I wonder if the Tau will magically turn into space dwarves...


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 09:55:37


Post by: BrookM


Chances of FW turning over their Death Korps goldmine to GW are slim to nothing and I'd rather have the FW version over the concepts of GW that look horrible in comparison, I mean WTF! Why does GW always give them pickelhauben!


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 10:08:37


Post by: H.B.M.C.


GW and FW are the same company. If GW wants to do plastic Krieg, they'll do plastic Krieg.

BYE


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 10:29:30


Post by: SuCHaR


H.B.M.C. wrote:GW and FW are the same company. If GW wants to do plastic Krieg, they'll do plastic Krieg.

BYE


Yes I know that. But I heard form my colleauge that with new IG codex will appear a plastic DKOK.
That would be very nice ]:->


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 13:18:54


Post by: Apone


I still think they'll leave DKOK to FW. It is their gold mine after all, as BrookM stated.
If GW are getting the money from FW sales. I'm sure they'll want to keep that coming.

They may however decide that adding to that range by offering cheaper plastic infantry may boost sales. Who knows. I doubt it.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 18:26:33


Post by: AlexCage


Isn't that what they do? Like the Skyray, Piranha, Vindicator, and Baneblade, they basically just steal FW's design and make 'em in plastic.

Guess it makes it far more accessible, able to be sold in shops in pretty boxes to kids who don't even know what a Forge World is. I can see the reasoning there.

But I'm fully confident FW won't 'discontinue' their Resin DKOK. Which is very good, because I'm not buying a bunch of under-detailed plastic wannabes!


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 19:24:27


Post by: Death By Monkeys


BrookM wrote:40k still has autoguns, but they are high-calibre caseless rifles with insane blowback on full auto. GW has a model of the autogun that looks like the M4 with a "grenade launcher" under the barrel, but in reality that thing is a heavy counter weight to hold the gun down a little when you fire it. (source: IA 5)

You're talking about the Vraksian Renegade Militiamen's autoguns, right BrookM?


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 20:53:17


Post by: Bob the Hobo


A new plastic regiment sounds nice, but I want to see the Codex fixed first, meaning all units and options in the Codex worth taking and multiple ways to use the Guard effectively, rather than the one basic way we've got now.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/14 21:49:22


Post by: Ratbarf


"Course, that'd be overkill, but it'd be nice if they did that in such a way that it'd cut down on IG kill points."

Huh, I always figured they would simply make the entire platoon worth one kill point or half the platoon or something similar.

As for the AC, the thing I really want to see is a "Patton" -esque special character that had its own tank and allowed Russ Squadrons as troops with attached chimeras for the mechanised infantry....


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/16 12:10:54


Post by: Mithrax


Just to throw my two cents in:

Was at Canadian GW HQ yesterday, speaking with some of the head office staff (was kind of cool, was playing a 2 player 20k point Apoc game, and all kinds of the staff from HQ were coming over to see if it was true).

From what I was told:

Codex should be around may of 2009.
There will be "22 tanks" in the codex, not just including Forgeworld variants.
Beyond that, nothing that hasn't been said before.


Now, with personal speculation I'm gussing that "22 tank" variants would include things with the Chimera chassis as well as the Leman Russ chassis as well. I just hope they throw the damn Griffon back into the game.

Edited to add the nationality of the GW HQ


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/16 12:25:48


Post by: Fresh


It said in the 2nd latest WD in the sneak preview that there would be ALOT more tanks, mithrax just pretty much backed that up

Cheers,
Gutteridge


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/16 17:32:38


Post by: JohnHwangDD


Mithrax wrote:Codex should be around may of 2009.
There will be "22 tanks" in the codex, not just including Forgeworld variants.

Yay. IG are getting something sooner than later.

22 Tanks? That's quite a few compared to the 5 we've got now:
- Chimera
- Hellhound
- Basilisk
- Leman Russ
- Demolisher

Return the OOP Classic models, and we're up to 7:
+ Griffon
+ Exterminator

15 to go, so we dig into FW!
+ Vanquisher
+ Conquerer
+ Executioner
+ Annihilator
+ Bombard
+ Destroyer
+ Thunderer
+ Atlas ARV

+Salamander
+Medusa
+Hydra
+Manticore
+Trojan

+Centaur

Hmm... FW can fill the gap without requiring any superheavies. That's very convenient. Let's just hope we don't have the old nonsense of charging more for things like Conqueror compared to standard Russes.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/16 17:58:16


Post by: Apone


AlexCage wrote:Isn't that what they do? Like the Skyray, Piranha, Vindicator, and Baneblade, they basically just steal FW's design and make 'em in plastic.

Guess it makes it far more accessible, able to be sold in shops in pretty boxes to kids who don't even know what a Forge World is. I can see the reasoning there.

But I'm fully confident FW won't 'discontinue' their Resin DKOK. Which is very good, because I'm not buying a bunch of under-detailed plastic wannabes!


What's to steal? It's GW property and they're letting FW make a kit that VEts would bye, seeing which ones are popular enough to make profit if made in plastic and then giving their customer base the bit of what they want that isn't a huge risk.

I think it's a great way for them to find out what's popular enough to put into plastic production. I.E. plastic DKOK, with less detail of course, and a fantastic resin range to back it up.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/16 17:59:56


Post by: derek


Plastic Kasrkin would be fantastic, hopefully they don't oversize them though. They're not Space Marines in Carapace, they should be the same size as normal guard in height but only with more padding. The conversion possibilities that plastic stormtroopers opens up already have me wishing for the new year. Even if doctrines are gone as has been highly speculated, hopefully a Carapaced regiment still makes it in.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/16 18:04:48


Post by: BrookM


Ratbarf wrote:"Course, that'd be overkill, but it'd be nice if they did that in such a way that it'd cut down on IG kill points."

Huh, I always figured they would simply make the entire platoon worth one kill point or half the platoon or something similar.

As for the AC, the thing I really want to see is a "Patton" -esque special character that had its own tank and allowed Russ Squadrons as troops with attached chimeras for the mechanised infantry....
But Patton was a colossal donkey-cave!

And Creed is part Patton part Churchill according to GW devs.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/16 18:20:11


Post by: Apone


BrookM wrote:
And Creed is part Patton part Churchill according to GW devs.


The Churchill part being the bald and the cigar I 'spose.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/16 18:51:57


Post by: jamessearle0


erm has anyone got any updates on the banter about the "great coat" plastic gaurd mentioned on page 1 ???(would make my slowly assembling skitari easier )


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/16 23:07:30


Post by: Mithrax


JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yay. IG are getting something sooner than later.

22 Tanks? That's quite a few compared to the 5 we've got now:
- Chimera
- Hellhound
- Basilisk
- Leman Russ
- Demolisher

Return the OOP Classic models, and we're up to 7:
+ Griffon
+ Exterminator

15 to go, so we dig into FW!
+ Vanquisher
+ Conquerer
+ Executioner
+ Annihilator
+ Bombard
+ Destroyer
+ Thunderer
+ Atlas ARV

+Salamander
+Medusa
+Hydra
+Manticore
+Trojan

+Centaur

Hmm... FW can fill the gap without requiring any superheavies. That's very convenient. Let's just hope we don't have the old nonsense of charging more for things like Conqueror compared to standard Russes.


Well, I suspect that we won't see a lot of the (imho anyways) unuseful ones like the trojan or atlas.

I'm guessing that the Salamander Scout and Salamander Command vehicles will be there, because that'd be fairly easy to do, especially in plastic (just swap out the autocannon for a H. Bolter or H. Flamer and tada! insta new tank!)

Hydra and manticore are possibilities for sure. I'll bet that the laser destroyer will be in there as well. Probably one or two new variants just because they can. But they'd have to change the rules for the manticore....minimum 36" range doesn't really work well in most normal games.

I don't know if including the rules for the bombard and medusa would be wise, but then again, it IS GW we're talking about. Instead, I'm probably going to guess at a new variant of the Basilisk, only because it would fill in a new arty piece and allow the exclusion of the bombard and medusa to keep it in the hands of us FW addicts.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 04:04:58


Post by: aka_mythos


I think we could easily see all the Salamander variants and griffon or medusa in one box.

I think it'd be easy for GW to do many of the LR variants in one box, the turret weapons the only difference.

I think to make 22 tanks in the book borders on ridiculous, the book would be filled with massive redundancy, i.e. Demolisher and Thunderer the latter has the same main weapon just no sponsons.

To fill out 22 options I'm guessing we'll see a new hull pattern something non-chimera and non-leman russ. I don't think we'll necessarily get a centaur with the general sort of overlap between it with the salamander, unless the salamander is scaled down. An actual tankette would be cool.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 05:23:11


Post by: Ratbarf


"part Churchill"

Which means he has shitastic tanks, trusts in a guy who names his dogs hitler and rommel, (who he then swears to kill) and doesn't kick nearly as much ass...

PS: Come to think of it a Rommel -esque character would also kill my wallet and be awwsome for great coat guard. Though the one thing I really want is some form of Air Cav!!!


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 05:31:47


Post by: Death By Monkeys


aka_mythos wrote:I think to make 22 tanks in the book borders on ridiculous, the book would be filled with massive redundancy, i.e. Demolisher and Thunderer the latter has the same main weapon just no sponsons.

To fill out 22 options I'm guessing we'll see a new hull pattern something non-chimera and non-leman russ. I don't think we'll necessarily get a centaur with the general sort of overlap between it with the salamander, unless the salamander is scaled down. An actual tankette would be cool.

Borders on the ridiculous? I'd say it's fully ridiculous. The only other way I might take it is if the staff member meant that it'd allow a list in which you could take up to 22 tanks. I can't even say that I'd love to see that many tank options in the Codex. Seriously. That'd wind up being a waste of space.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 08:33:20


Post by: H.B.M.C.


22 tanks? Yeah, I'm just not seeing it.

BYE


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 09:05:05


Post by: aka_mythos


I say borders on ridiculous because I'm not going to be surprised to find the "22" counts each chimera turret weapon variant as a separate "tank". I just mean its unclear how someones coming to that count.

Also to the part of the discussion on special character tank commander, I think it'd be cool to see, but there would be almost an insistence of it being different from "Chronus" so it'd be interesting to see what approach they'd take for an IG one.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 11:20:31


Post by: BrookM


The different approach to this would most likely be the course of not getting one at all. Instead we might just get "revived" characters such as Chenkov, Al Rahem and Nork Deddog.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 13:53:50


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Don't forget Stumper Muckstart.

BYE


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 18:08:15


Post by: aka_mythos


I think if the IG codex is anything like the SM codex we'll see an interesting assortment of characters. I can't see GW doing any characters who's army isn't really supported: mordian, tallarn etc. That can always change if they re-release the old minis or do new ones. A tank commander seems likely, so does a stormtrooper/droptroop captain. We'll probably have Creed, Yarick, Gaunt, Schaeffer... I think Nork, Stumper would be a way to keep the Ratlings alive (if rumors are true ratlings as a squad choice are bye bye), Solar Macharius.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 18:54:57


Post by: Alpharius


In the current background is Yarrick still alive?


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 19:00:17


Post by: JohnHwangDD


It would be nice to have Ogryn Bodyguard, assuming GW fixes them to make them playable for their points.

"Ultimately, any unit with 3 Wounds has a lot going for it."


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 19:07:43


Post by: sourclams


Alpharius wrote:In the current background is Yarrick still alive?


Yes. Alive and on crusade, huntin' the elusive Ghaz-Thrakka.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 20:14:27


Post by: IGkid


I think 22 tanks sounds realistic. Saying as the new Space Marine Codex is over 100 pages and they are getting some new models, ie Drop Pod and Scout Speeder, the IG could very well get a new tank. I bet out of the 22 variants most will just be turret differences which could easily be packaged on one sprue. The chimera alone has twin linked heavy bolter, auto cannon, multi laser, and a heavy flamer. That is 4 "different" tanks in one model. I dont know why they have not done this before as the auto cannon and heavy bolter are already in the IG arsenal. Plus the IG could use more twin-link weapons, they are useless in close combat and need to be more viable in shooting.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 20:21:24


Post by: Alpharius


JohnHwangDD wrote:It would be nice to have Ogryn Bodyguard, assuming GW fixes them to make them playable for their points.

"Ultimately, any unit with 3 Wounds has a lot going for it."


I see this mentioned a lot, but, not being very familiar with the IG, what would be the best way to 'fix' Ogryns?


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 20:35:58


Post by: BrookM


Alpharius wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:It would be nice to have Ogryn Bodyguard, assuming GW fixes them to make them playable for their points.

"Ultimately, any unit with 3 Wounds has a lot going for it."


I see this mentioned a lot, but, not being very familiar with the IG, what would be the best way to 'fix' Ogryns?
By throwing their cost down.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 21:39:00


Post by: Death By Monkeys


JohnHwangDD wrote:"Ultimately, any unit with 3 Wounds has a lot going for it."

LOL. That quote made my day, John. Thanks!


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 21:43:03


Post by: bigchris1313


BrookM wrote:
Alpharius wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:It would be nice to have Ogryn Bodyguard, assuming GW fixes them to make them playable for their points.

"Ultimately, any unit with 3 Wounds has a lot going for it."


I see this mentioned a lot, but, not being very familiar with the IG, what would be the best way to 'fix' Ogryns?
By throwing their cost down.


And, as an added bonus, that means we can buy more models. We get Ogryn as a viable counter-assault unit, and they get more cash. It just seems crazy that GW hasn't done this already. Unless the models really suck.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 21:47:50


Post by: Da Boss


I think anything with 2+ wounds should have T5 too.
That or they should get rid of the instant death rule entirely. I've always hated that rule.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/17 21:50:21


Post by: BrookM


Ogryn got updated and slightly less ugly models when Apocalypse was released, not too shabby. But personally I feel that they could go down a notch in price, allowing us to field more and make them more effective instead of husbanding them until the right moment "happens" to arrive. Three wounds per model count for when they are in low numbers.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 00:00:35


Post by: aka_mythos


I think IG more than alot of armies require a cost down or power up. The thing is whatever power up that happens has to make sense as far as distinguishable differences in training over other armies. A cost down I'd fear would push them into being too much of an army of the nameless dying masses. I mean that is a tactic of the IG and all but there is some point where you want them to stand a chance in ways other than body count. There is also a risk of going to far in the other direction. Knowing GW they'll probably end up going too far in one of those two directions. Personally I think that the number of models in an average IG army is about right and that its more a matter of balancing what they can accomplish.

Ogryn are an example of that, what they can accomplish is not in proportion to their cost as you can accomplish almost as much with a fewer number of points of guardsmen. Techpriests and Sanctioned Psykers are another slew of models that are rarely worth their points.

Stormtroopers will probably get a big push with their new models.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 03:17:35


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Alpharius wrote:I see this mentioned a lot, but, not being very familiar with the IG, what would be the best way to 'fix' Ogryns?


There isn't one. All solutions to the 'Ogryn Problem' are bad. Some are less bad, but they're all bad. The first point is, what is the 'Ogryn Problem'. You have to define that before you can even attempt to look at the pathetic solutions. The Ogryn problem is twofold:

1. Ogryn can't do anything that other units cannot do better, cheaper, or both.
2. Their durability is a myth.

Both these things are tied together. Ogryn don't cause enough damage to be worthwhile, and part of the reason they don't cause much damage is that they die too quickly.

There are three ways that I've looked at into making Ogryn work:

1. Make them immune to Instant Death.
2. Give them a FNP save.
3. Make them Toughness 5.

Option 1 doesn't make any sense. Why would they be immune to ID when thigns like Oblits aren't? Option 2 doesn't actually help, as the chief weakness of Ogryn is that they get taken out too quickly by S8 power fists in HTH. Now, this has been mitigated partially in 5th Ed as every Power Fist has lost an attack, so your typical Marine Sergeant will kill 2-3 Ogryn a turn, rather than 3-4, so it's better, but still bad. Option 3 is a bad option because Toughness 5 makes immune to instant death against things that should be killing them straight away - like Lascannons.

The only one out of those three you can go with is the 3rd option. It's a bad option, but it is better than the other two. At Toughness 5 they will survive in HTH against power fists (and the like), and with their increased durability they might be able to cause more damage.

I don't like this 'solution', but given the alternatives.

'Ok, why not just make them cheaper then?' I hear some of you say. 'If there weren't so many points invested in them, then losing them quickly wouldn't be such a problem - you can just bring more!'

This doesn't work. We have to look at this from a realistic standpoint. Most people are going to own 10 Ogryn. Tops. They are very expensive from a $$$ perspective, and the idea of a 'horde' of Ogryn isn't ever going to happen. Moreoever, only 6 fit inside a Chimera, so they need to work in squads of 10 and squads of 6. Reducing their cost won't make them work in squads of 6. Only Toughness 5 will do that.

BYE


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 03:22:49


Post by: sourclams


I only vaguely recall Ogryn from back when I picked up guard as an Army and was exploring "options" with list building and unit mixes. Aren't Ogryn sold only in single model metal blisters at a cost of something like $11.00 apiece? They're a giant hunk of metal.

But yeah, no power weapons, no armor, T4 and vulnerable to instant death, expensive model and hard to field effectively pretty much kills off Ogryn.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 04:12:51


Post by: aka_mythos


How about an Ogryn with T4(5) like SM bikers? Don't know how that'd work out but its the closest thing to being in between the positives and negative you (HBMC) want.

With the fact that their models are newer they'll probably get a bit of nudge in their performance capability.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 04:52:23


Post by: sebster


H.B.M.C. wrote:'Ok, why not just make them cheaper then?' I hear some of you say. 'If there weren't so many points invested in them, then losing them quickly wouldn't be such a problem - you can just bring more!'

This doesn't work. We have to look at this from a realistic standpoint. Most people are going to own 10 Ogryn. Tops. They are very expensive from a $$$ perspective, and the idea of a 'horde' of Ogryn isn't ever going to happen. Moreoever, only 6 fit inside a Chimera, so they need to work in squads of 10 and squads of 6. Reducing their cost won't make them work in squads of 6. Only Toughness 5 will do that.

BYE


The trick isn't in getting people to put more ogryns onto the field, but in getting them to pay less points for the ogryns they do put out. If they could deploy their 10 strong unit for 1/3 less than the points they currently cost, they're a lot closer to being viable. Powerfists will still mess them up but GW has made an effort to reduce the number of powerfists out there... it probably won't work, but everything that increases the likelihood of a unit avoiding a powerfist is a step towards getting more ogryns in the game.


Another option is to make Ogryns immune to instant death when in melee. Call it battle rage or something...


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 05:51:02


Post by: J'santai Khan


I'm still waiting on decent set of rules so I'll have a good excuse to get my Catachans out again. Hopefully, this time they'll make it viable.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 06:00:46


Post by: bigchris1313


aka_mythos wrote:How about an Ogryn with T4(5) like SM bikers? Don't know how that'd work out but its the closest thing to being in between the positives and negative you (HBMC) want.


But then they still drop to PFs. A powerfist still makes a 3W model go *pop* if it's T4(5). The problem with Ogryn is that they get shredded in CC because PFs are so ubiquitous. If only we had a way to say that they couldn't be insta-killed in CC but could be killed by ranged. Unfortunately, even GW's "fluff gymnastics," as Abby said, would have a hard time explaining why we only apply ID to Ogryn half the time.

"They get so excited in when the fight comes to fisticuffs that power fists are no longer able to crush their skulls with impunity." - GW


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 06:40:07


Post by: H.B.M.C.


sebster wrote:If they could deploy their 10 strong unit for 1/3 less than the points they currently cost, they're a lot closer to being viable.


Viable at what?

They're not tough enough to withstand anything attacking them and they die too quickly to cause any real damage.

So, I ask again, viable at what?

There are cheaper units to act as tarpits and cheaper units that can cause lots of damage.

BYE


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 09:04:01


Post by: sebster


H.B.M.C. wrote:
sebster wrote:If they could deploy their 10 strong unit for 1/3 less than the points they currently cost, they're a lot closer to being viable.


Viable at what?

They're not tough enough to withstand anything attacking them and they die too quickly to cause any real damage.

So, I ask again, viable at what?

There are cheaper units to act as tarpits and cheaper units that can cause lots of damage.

BYE


So you make them cheaper than alternative tarpits. It isn't rocket surgery.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 10:08:36


Post by: H.B.M.C.


They can't tarpit!!!!!!! Isn't that obvious to you? It's certainly not brain science.

To be useful Ogryn have to do one of two things:

1. Stop units dead with their durability.
2. Kill lots of enemy models before they die.

They're too easy to kill to fill the first role, and because they die so quickly, they never get a chance to fill the second role.

They have to work in units of 10, or 6, so that either means they get a dramatic increase in damage power (making them akin to Rough Rider Hunting Lances, but better), or they get tougher.

Making them cheaper achieves neither of these.


Furthermore, I have a saying:

Points are not the great leveler.


If I have a broken radio on sale for $10, and you offer me $1, is it somehow a more viable purchase? It still doesn't work. The radio's still broken.

In other words, if something is crap, making it cheaper just means that it's cheaper crap. You cannot expect that changing the points on something will work as a solution. It takes more than that.

BYE


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 14:10:14


Post by: AlexCage


I dunno, I think all units of multi-wound models should be immune to Instant Death, to be honest with you.

You pay so many points to get a unit of demi-heros, and it just gives your opponent the opportunity to kill many demi-heros at once, and provides a great target.

As much as I respect the power a STR 10 template should be capable of, it just seems wrong to drop it on a unit of Oblits and wipe them out to the man. Aren't you guys supposed to be tougher than that?

Maybe make Instant-Death only work on a 4+, or only work on units of multi-wound models on a 4+. Or something similar. Definitely adds another element of totally random to the game, which I think is bad, but as a Guardsmen, I just can't give up on Instant Death entirely!

That being said, my Ogryn almost always perform well. But I just think my opponents aren't sure how to counter them yet. Until then, they fear the 3 wound wall.

Hey! Maybe give them all power weapons? Won't make them more durable, but will make their hits all that more spectacular.

That and I dream about Ogryns with Powerfists/Power weapons. Makes me giddy.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 14:19:41


Post by: Agamemnon2


H.B.M.C. wrote:
Alpharius wrote:I see this mentioned a lot, but, not being very familiar with the IG, what would be the best way to 'fix' Ogryns?

There isn't one. All solutions to the 'Ogryn Problem' are bad. Some are less bad, but they're all bad. The first point is, what is the 'Ogryn Problem'. You have to define that before you can even attempt to look at the pathetic solutions. The Ogryn problem is twofold:

I agree with your assessment, but not necessarily your conclusions. I think the best thing GW could do would be to remove the unit from the codex, since there's really nothing they can do that'd both make them viable and not snap the fluff in half.

Ogryns should've never survived the move to 3E, and now's as good a time as any to fix it.

Failing that, I'd be happy withl take T5, powerweapons and decent unit champion upgrades. The designers could throw on an extra 5 points if it made their little monkey brains happier.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 14:38:22


Post by: Polonius


Ogryn have been one of the most hotly discussed units on the IG wishlist as long as I've been playing (about seven years). For starters, there is no reason for them to have 3 wounds, that's simply a hold over from fantasy where Ogres have three wounds. Ditto the high strength weapons without any rules: in fantasy a S6 hit throws a -3 modifier on any save it encounters. In 40k, power armor simply laughs.

As HBMC points out, points alone won't help. Ogryn have two major weaknesses: they don't kill enough to win combats, and they're far too vulnerable to powerfists to tarpit. By the time you drop the points enough to make them fair against fists, units without the fist (or that lose one early on) will struggle against a dirt cheap wall of T4.

How to fix against fists? Well, you can increase their durability over all. Higher Tougness, immune to ID, an invulernable save, or even some complicated special rule. Call it Too Stupid to Die: Ogryns are ferioucious hand to hand opponents that tower over most enemies, and weapons designed to destroy man sized targets seldom work properly. Any non-vehicle unit fighting against Ogryn gain no benefit from Powerfists, powerclaws, thunderhammers, etc.

It's a decent rule, and it fixes the problem, but it's the worst kind of rule: the patch. An invulnerable save makes little sense and will be of limited effect. Crisis teams like them because they can take drones to absorb the hits. Instant death doens't make much sense either. It works for Tyranid Warriors because they still suck even with it. Ogryn with Eternal Warrior could shrug off demolisher cannon, which doesn't seem right.

IMO, the most viable option is a bump to T5. Does it make sense? Not horribly, but it's what it is. The Instant Death Rules are a crude mechanic, and working around them requires equally crude mechanics. I'd drop Ogryn to 2 wounds and give them a 4+ save to make them just as good against light infantry, but T5 will keep them in more fights.

As for killing, I have no problem with giving the Bonehead a power weapon (perhaps two handed?), and increasing the squads attacks.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 15:02:13


Post by: Necros


I wish they would just do away with the whole AP thing and just make the saves based on str like in fantasy. But that will never happen.

They also won't remove Ogryns because they just made new models for them.. so I would expect them to stick around.

T5 seems like the best band aid fix for them. Lower points would be nice too. I haven't gotten any ogryn models yet cuz I just don't know how to fit them into my army, should they shoot stuff? assaut? counter assault? I think they need to define their role better. I think it would be great to have them be a tarpit kind of unit, a defensive cc unit. It might also be cool if they could be added to a platoon so that with the rumored platoon drill skill, you can have them screen your platoons and still be able to shoot through em


As for the 22 tanks.. I don't see that happening either.. unless they're making a whole new chassis like maybe the Machurious and/or the Malcador.. if they make a whole mess of different options for the russ, most players are gonna settle for the cheapest/best version anyway and most of the other new kinds will hardly ever be used.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 15:06:07


Post by: Bob the Hobo


sebster wrote:
Powerfists will still mess them up but GW has made an effort to reduce the number of powerfists out there...


Just watch- I bet Marine Sergeants will be able to take double powerfists.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 16:27:56


Post by: Wehrkind


What would happen if you lowered the points a bit and gave them rending in melee? Yea, I know everything and its brother gets rending to beef it up, but it actually makes sense in this case that Ogryn have a chance to just crush through any armor they smash.
I would also be in favor of giving the Bone 'ead a power maul or something as an upgrade.
Possibly they add 1 or 2 to their combat resolution? Might help as well.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 18:25:35


Post by: Death By Monkeys


Wehrkind wrote:Possibly they add 1 or 2 to their combat resolution? Might help as well.

Now that's an interesting thought - I mean, in WHFB, larger models count their unit size differently from standard infantry. That might not be a bad idea in this case. It'd help them hold in combat a little longer at least.


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/08/18 19:27:32


Post by: Alpharius


Polonius wrote:



How to fix against fists? Well, you can increase their durability over all. Higher Tougness, immune to ID, an invulernable save, or even some complicated special rule. Call it Too Stupid to Die: Ogryns are ferioucious hand to hand opponents that tower over most enemies, and weapons designed to destroy man sized targets seldom work properly. Any non-vehicle unit fighting against Ogryn gain no benefit from Powerfists, powerclaws, thunderhammers, etc.



That is an awesome name for their proposed special rule!

I hope GW steals that one from this thread, if nothing else!


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/09/22 05:18:11


Post by: grizgrin


Not wanting to start ANOTHER IG rumor thread now that we have this one as well as the fanboi wetdream thread. Someone will scream threadromancy, but eh well.

Does anyone have any updates on IG? Still looking like spring?


Anyone hear something about IG codex? @ 2008/09/22 10:34:15


Post by: Cybium


Ogryn Squad 170 points (10 models, includes one Bone'ed)

WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 W1 A1 Ld8 Save 3+

One model gets flamer, another gets missile launcher for free.
Special rules: ATSKNF, combat squads.

fixed