Instead of necromancifying some old thread, I'm starting a new one. If this has been done recently would someone kindly provide a link and lock this down?

In the Chaos FAQ it says that models with wings are not Jump Infantry but only Move as Jump Infantry. Now in the Jump Infantry section of the rulebook it says that they take Dangerous Terrain tests if they begin or end their move in Difficult terrain. In the summary section however, in the little chart, it says Jump Infantry takes dangerous terrain tests when moving in difficult terrain, but regular Infantry does not (unless the terrain is specified to be dangerous). The question is, do only models that are listed as Jump Infantry take Dangerous terrain tests in this case or is it anything that moves like Jump Infantry since the dangerous terrain test is when the unit moves?

If Necron Scarabs can turbo-boost, then yes, winged IC's have to take dangerous terrain tests for ending their movement in difficult terrain.

The whole reason they said they are not jump infantry is so Demon Princes (and lords and sorcs too) with Wings do not take difficult terrain tests when moving.

MOST people model their DP with wings, and lords/sorcs with jump packs.

They didn't FAQ it for nothing.

Sorry Stelek, could you clarify how you're interpreting this?


And Lord, so you're reading it as how they move and not how they're classified that determines what tests they take? According to the FAQ Lords with wings are still Infantry so (according to the summary again) should not have to take dangerous terrain tests.

Q: Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?

A: No. It simply allows the model to move like jump infantry. Note that the model must actually be converted to have a pair of wings rather than a jump pack.

Why is this a question?

MOVE AS not COUNTS AS.

No, but I've been told repeatedly that if something (Scrabs) moves as something else (jetbikes) then it gets all the assocated effects (turbo-boost). So if winged creatures move as jump infantry, then they should take the associated effects.

Actually, that's nice someone "told you" that, but it isn't in the rules.

The scarabs have been FAQ'd so they DO take those tests.

See, GW does indeed make rules that must say you can do something before you can do it.

Non-permissive ruleset.

I assume that the reason they say "move as Jump Infantry" instead of "count as Jump Infantry" is so that people don't try to argue that flying demon princes aren't monstrous creatures because they're jump infantry.

Did you move as a jump infantry and land in (or start in) difficult terrain? If so, take your dangeour terrain test.

Actually the Jump Infantry rules are the only ones that make you take dangerous terrain.

The real reason Demon Princes are not allowed to be Jump infantry is because then they can DEEP STRIKE.

Gee. A deep striking demon prince. Well I vote we let the big guy deep strike, flame us, and then own our face in CC the next turn after flaming another unit dead.

Who's all for bad rules??

2 things:

1. The Chaos Codex under wargear does state that models with "wings" can deepstrike... so yeah, Stelek you can deep strike those mean Demon Princes. (It's not that bad... I've played against it).

2. I believe that they FAQed this for another reason as well... a winged lord or sorc can now ride in a transport. This can be used well for a rino rushing chaos army that could use a bit more movement on their HQ. (once again, it's not that bad, and it gives Chaos a bit more mobility, something that they are lacking, especially with the str 4 defensive weapon change - Havoc launchers and Heavy bolters now can't move, and Chaos doesn't have good bikes or land speeders either).


But as far as the original question... I totally agree with Lord, if something moves like a jetpack, it takes the pros and the cons. Just roll you're DT tests and stay away from 1s. Also, don't forget that you can take an invol and any ICs get skilled rider.

Kap N' Krunch wrote:and any ICs get skilled rider.

They do? I thought they only received move through cover? I don't have the BRB handy to double check

The rules for moving Jump Infantry state that they take dangerous terrain tests when they begin or end their move in difficult terrain.

Any model that moves as Jump Infantry would therefore be bound by this rule just as they get the ability to move 12" and ignore terrain as they move.

There is no logical way to separate that rule out of the rest of the Jump Infantry rules for movement.


P1. The rules for moving jump infantry dictate that if the Jump Infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it takes a dangerous terrain test.
P2. CSM models with wings move as Jump Infantry.

C. CSM models with wings must take a dangerous terrain test if they begin or end their move in difficult terrain.

So yak you think DP can deep strike? I find the whole concept of 'moves as but is NOT jump infantry' being clearly stated in the FAQ overrides all other logic one might use.

Stelek - as noted above, in the Chaos Codex, yes, DP can deepstrike.

Also, please tell us how something can move as jump infantry, but is not affected by movement rules that affect jump infantry? i.e. while moving, the model with wings moves as jump infantry, so is affected by the rules for moving as a jump packer.

Stelek wrote:So yak you think DP can deep strike?

Probably because it's in the Codex.

"In addition, models that have wings can be dropped from low-flying gunships. They can be kept in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules."

Thanks MinMax, I didn't have the Codex on me to direct quote.

I admit I was too lazy to look.

I also care very little at this point.

I'll play it RAW, you play it RAI.

They are Infantry, except if they choose to move as Jump Infantry (at which point, they would count as Jump Infantry for the duration of such movement).

Stelek, I tried to make the exact same point about Scarabs and Turbo-boosting last edition. The point was unanimously rejected by everybody who decided to debate it with me.

And now this edition, they've been FAQ'd to be able to turbo-boost.

Lordhat wrote:Stelek, I tried to make the exact same point about Scarabs and Turbo-boosting last edition. The point was unanimously rejected by everybody who decided to debate it with me.

And now this edition, they've been FAQ'd to be able to turbo-boost.

Yeah it's alot of pissing up a tree sometimes.

I have to agree with Stelek here.

the RAW + FAQ would allow you to jump your sorcerer or DP in or out of difficult terrain w/o having to take the dangerous test.

I believe the intent of the FAQ was to avoid problems around a DP's monsterous creature status comming into question if it were equiped with wings. You can't say that it's classified as jump infantry as it would then have to follow all the jump infantry rules for not only movement, but number of weapons that can be shot, the ability to ignore armor saves, etc. Once again, the poor wording in the BRB, and the lack of detail in the FAQ combine to leave us with a stupid rule.

If the BRB had wording like "any model that moves as jump infantry that either begins or ends its movement in difficult terrain must take a dangerous terrain test," well that would solve things, but sadly the RAW states "if a jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."

In a perfect world, we would have the "any model that moves as" rule, the FAQ, and a exception for MC that says that they never have to take dangerous terrain test for moving through difficult terrain. That way the sorcerer would have to take the test, and the DP would not (like their move-through-cover rule: they are so big and powerful that "they simply bash their way through trees and ruins").

Until then, claim your cheese!

Stelek wrote:

Lordhat wrote:Stelek, I tried to make the exact same point about Scarabs and Turbo-boosting last edition. The point was unanimously rejected by everybody who decided to debate it with me.

And now this edition, they've been FAQ'd to be able to turbo-boost.

Yeah it's alot of pissing up a tree sometimes.

Forums: 3
Stelek: 5000

We're making up some ground here!

yamato wrote:

If the BRB had wording like "any model that moves as jump infantry that either begins or ends its movement in difficult terrain must take a dangerous terrain test," well that would solve things, but sadly the RAW states "if a jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."

In a perfect world, we would have the "any model that moves as" rule, the FAQ, and a exception for MC that says that they never have to take dangerous terrain test for moving through difficult terrain. That way the sorcerer would have to take the test, and the DP would not (like their move-through-cover rule: they are so big and powerful that "they simply bash their way through trees and ruins").

Until then, claim your cheese!

I call shenanigans.

The Jump Infantry movement rules also say:

"Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase."


You can't say that the winged model counts as Jump Infantry for the parts of the rule you choose to apply them to and then ignore the parts you don't like.

The fact is, models with wings move as jump infantry, so following normal basic logic they utilize all the rules for movement that apply to Jump Infantry.

So if a rule refers to a "Jump Infantry" model and that rule involves the movement of said model (including penalties) then it would indeed apply to a winged model as well.


There is absolutely no logical basis to claim that a winged model may move 12" but doesn't take dangerous terrain tests when landing in terrain. They are all rules for how Jump Infantry moves, which the winged model follows.

Stelek wrote:I admit I was too lazy to look.

I also care very little at this point.

I'll play it RAW, you play it RAI.

Wow I should use that RAW for leaping and winged Tyranids as well.



I wish sarcasm came across in text better.

Plenty of things have options like this, and the rules back Yak.
Again.

shrug

Sigh, if you make me bust out the rules I will do so.

Please note the models in question are INFANTRY MODELS.

Right, on to the rules...

P52: "However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or engs its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."

Sorry, WHAT jump infantry model? I'm infantry that "moves as" but "is not".

Have a nice day.

again, I'm sure the intent is that they should take the test, but I agree that the rules specifically say a "jump infantry model", and not a "model that moves like jump infantry" which the CSM 5e FAQ was quite precise in labeling models with wings to only move as jump infantry, but not count as jump infantry.

Yak - I agree that they intent is there, but the words on the pages just don't add up to that.

What about pg 85 of Codex: CSM

"Models equiped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

This rule clearly state a model with wing, regardless of what it counts as, uses the EXACT same rules as jump infantry. Including what tests to make when.

Off topic, on the same page they've included a picture of a "winged jump pack". If the pictures were included for equipment clarity, this is a failure. I still don't know what wings or a jump pack looks like, RAW.

Stelek wrote:Sigh, if you make me bust out the rules I will do so.

Please note the models in question are INFANTRY MODELS.

Right, on to the rules...

P52: "However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or engs its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."

Sorry, WHAT jump infantry model? I'm infantry that "moves as" but "is not".

Have a nice day.

I'll refer you back to my original argument which you have not refuted:

P1. The rules for moving jump infantry dictate that if the Jump Infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it takes a dangerous terrain test.
P2. CSM models with wings move as Jump Infantry.

C. CSM models with wings must take a dangerous terrain test if they begin or end their move in difficult terrain.

yamato wrote:again, I'm sure the intent is that they should take the test, but I agree that the rules specifically say a "jump infantry model", and not a "model that moves like jump infantry" which the CSM 5e FAQ was quite precise in labeling models with wings to only move as jump infantry, but not count as jump infantry.

Yak - I agree that they intent is there, but the words on the pages just don't add up to that.

And how exactly do jump infantry move?

Please describe precisely where the line exists between the rules that Jump Infantry follow for movement and the rules that models that move as Jump Infantry follow.

We only have one set of rules: How Jump Infantry move. Those rules use the term "Jump Infantry" and "Jump Infantry Model" to tell you how to play the game.

Are you also trying to claim that this rule:

"Jump Infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain, except that they can end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it."

Does not apply either because it uses the term "Jump Infantry Model"?



I'm sorry but you are just flat-out wrong from a RAW perspective.

If there are *any* rules that dictate how Jump Infantry move (good or bad), then they are followed by models who move as Jump Infantry.

Stelek wrote:P52: "However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or engs its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."

Sorry, WHAT jump infantry model? I'm infantry that "moves as" but "is not".

Right. You're moving as Jump Infantry... and therefore a rule that applies to moving jump infantry applies to you.

Man, oh man...

I thought people would have learned to NOT argue rules with Yak anymore, its just a unwinnable attempt.

Yak - agreed that the intent is there, and the wording is poor due to the Chaos FAQ.

You were at least somewhat involved. What is the purpose of the FAQ stating that they are not classified as jump infantry,..... Is this directed at the DP, and someone wanting to somehow degrade it's MC status by trying to call it jump infantry? I can find no other destiction for a sorcerer as an example. If a sorcerer gets wings and can move as jump infantry, how is that any different from being classified as jump infantry?

yamato wrote: If a sorcerer gets wings and can move as jump infantry, how is that any different from being classified as jump infantry?

He can still board transports, and enter buildings.
Under 4th edition, he would have been able to deploy in an Escalation mission.

cool, thanks

Gee, arguing with yakface is pointless, is it?

Since no one seems to grasp what I'm saying, despite saying it fifteen ways from Sunday, I'll try once more.

Then if it's more knee-jerk 'Stelek is wrong, Yakface is right' reactions you know where to drop your vote.

Rules refuting yaks "argument". I barely can call it that.

1st verse:

Page 52. "Different unit types...

So far the rules have just dealt with troops that around on foot - infantry. These unit types have different rules for the way they move, how terrain affects them, how far they can assault, and so on."

Starting to sound good, why I'm almost a believer! I'd better keep reading though.

"In any given situation during a battle, if the Codex doesn't say any different, follow the rules for the appropriate unit type, and if those rules don't say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry."

UH OH. This is where the anti-Stelek crowd "quotes" me and says "clearly this means just what we say it does and you are wrong as always." A lame argument, but it will be made.

So let's go to the rest of the rules, but correct it for the ruling GW made. See, GW made a bad ruling and those arguing with me are trying to confuse RAI with RAW. Sadly, while that's nice it's about as useful in a rules discussion as "the fluff says". Oh and 4th edition means nothing, this is the updated 5th edition FAQ and we have to use it.

Now let's get the ruling in here:

Q: Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?

A: No, it simply allows the model to move like jump infantry.

So let's look at the rule for jump infantry and how it's modified by this FAQ.

Movement, P52: Note I've substituted in ITALICS how the rules read when modified.

Winged infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish. When using winged movement, they can move over all other models and all terrain freely.

Skip the part about jump infantry being affected by difficult terrain, they told you in the FAQ answer that they are NOT classified as Jump infantry. Remember that part about unit types? The unit type is INFANTRY or in the case of Demon Princes, MONSTROUS CREATURE. Neither unit type is modified, as clearly answered in the FAQ.

So you go to page 14 (for Lords and Sorcerors) and see that since you can move 12" you don't have to roll for difficult terrain to move into it per the Jump Infantry rules.

Demon Princes have the extra modifier of being a Monstrous Creature and rolling 3D6" for entering, but you don't have to do that either (although it does grant you an advantage when moving to assault).

In short, you are not affected by the entire set of jump infantry rules because they apply ONLY to jump infantry rules.

Oh and for the person saying you can use this for your Hive Tyrants, does your Codex say you take difficult terrain tests when landing in terrain? Yes because unlike the Chaos Codex, YOUR Wings entry says you are CLASSED as Jump Infantry in all respects. The Chaos Codex (and the FAQ in particular) does NOT say this.

Move as is not the same as 'is' because the rules SPECIFICALLY tell you that if the Codex doesn't cover it, then you use the rules for infantry.

Don't believe me? Read the Chaos Winged entry, then read the Tyranid Winged entry.

They ARE different. The FAQ ruling is CLEARLY telling you that you are NOT classified as jump infantry in all respects when running Winged Chaos characters, only in how far you move.

Until INFANTRY have to take a difficult terrain test that forces armor saves, you do not have to take any such tests.

It's a badly written rule. I understand what GW might have intended. Means nothing until they write it up.

You saying I'm wrong doesn't change the facts outlined above.

So essentially, the ruling was meant to hinder winged Princes from becoming jump infantry but it has also, in turn, made it so Lords and Sorcerers don't become jump infantry as well. From what I can tell the change to winged lords and sorcerers was simply a side effect.

Stelek,

The codex: "Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."
The FAQ:

Q. Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?
A. No, it simply allows the model to move like jump infantry.

So the models "move in the same way as jump infantry" or "move like jump infantry". "The models move as jump infantry." has exactly the same meaning as "The models move as if there were jump infantry model." and "The models are jump infantry model for the purposes of movement."

It is unreasonable to claim that the 40k rules are written to a standard where one could reasonably argue semantic points at the degree of precision required for your argument to work. Lacking that precision, if it moves like a duck it is a duck for those rules.

Man, I have waffled back and forth on this, but it seems that I will have to come back to my initial gut feeling on this, and say that all models that move as jump infantry are required to take this test.

When the FAQ says that they "move like Jump Infantry" I would say that they are subject to everything in the paragraph entitled "Movement" within the Jump Infantry unit description section.

In effect, the FAQ says that you use the initial unit type of the winged charachter for all rules other than movement. When you get to movement, you have to follow the rules set out for Jump Infantry for movement.

@Solkan:

I'm sorry my explanation wasn't clear enough for you.

I've already outlined my point and you haven't refuted it (hyperbole like "unreasonable" and "semantics" doesn't win arguments, it just red herrings them).

@ yamato

This is a nice way to play, and may even be what GW intended.

Sadly, that isn't what is in the rules.

I was quite clear in describing the chain of failure in the rules, and what you say is your opinion without the rules backing you up.

If you can refute the chain of failure I outlined, please do so.

i think a better question is:

do jump infantry that begin and end their movement in two different pieces of difficult terrain have to take two dangerous terrain tests?

according to the wording, they must only take one per movement phase.

I agree it is a better question.

I believe it is just one test.

Stelek wrote:I've already outlined my point and you haven't refuted it

What's to refute?

So far, your argument boils down to: They follow the movement rules for Jump Infantry, except for the ones that I say they don't follow.

That doesn't even come close to holding water.

i guess that what i don't get about this debate, overall, is that the same thing happens all the time.

a rule is written badly, or outside of the mainstream patterning of similar rules, and then the debate ensues - what was the intent of the rule? should we play it as it should be, or how it was written?

can we just acknowledge that KNOWLEDGE OF INTENT IS REQUIRED!?

better still, since yakface is now writing the rules, can he just make a call and say "what did you guys intend to do?" after which he can simply FAQ/ERRATA something so that its wording correctly conveys intent?!

this would save a lot of headaches... it might even make the internet useless because there would be nothing left to complain about.

Anyone else got a red herring they want to throw me? I have a cat that's hungry!

but "is not".

Still looking for that part in the BRB....

I don't really see what is hard for everyone to understand. If they have wings they move as jump infantry, they aren't jump infantry. This means they move 12" ignoring terrain. That's it. Now since they aren't Jump Infantry look under Infantry, do they take dangerous terrain tests for moving around in terrain? The rules as written are vague here though and probably "streamlined" to make it take up less space by saying move as jump infantry rather than move 12" and ignore terrain.

I think a majority of you are just siding with Yak because no one likes Stelek.

Typeline wrote: If they have wings they move as jump infantry, they aren't jump infantry.

So if they gain the positive part of moving as jump infantry, why wouldn't they also gain the negative?

What is it exactly that says that you take one part of the JI movement rules but not the other?


Their actual unit type doesn't matter in the slightest. They're moving as Jump Infantry, and so they follow the rules for Jump Infantry movement.

OK fine then... since the rulebook says
"JUMP infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase." p.52

then models with wings says can't move 12" since the rulebook says JUMP INFANTRY. If the camp that says they don't make dangerous terrain tests is that stubborn, then i say our camp won't let them move 12" (since they get to pick and choose why can't we) but since they move as jump infantry we can let them move over other models and such with their 6" move without making dangerous terrain tests.

RAAAAAARWR!!!!

insaniak wrote:

Typeline wrote: If they have wings they move as jump infantry, they aren't jump infantry.

So if they gain the positive part of moving as jump infantry, why wouldn't they also gain the negative?

What is it exactly that says that you take one part of the JI movement rules but not the other?


Their actual unit type doesn't matter in the slightest. They're moving as Jump Infantry, and so they follow the rules for Jump Infantry movement.

The part of the rules I quoted say differently.

Quote rules that contradict the ones I quoted.

This is the rule that kills you:

"In any given situation during a battle, if the Codex doesn't say any different, follow the rules for the appropriate unit type, and if those rules don't say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry."

So the FAQ says they MOVE as Jump Infantry. That means a 12" move, ignoring terrain and other models (well, so long as you don't land on them) and has a caveat about impassable terrain.

That's all the movement.

Nowhere does it say they treat difficult terrain as jump infantry because the CODEX does not tell you to follow any other rules, so you revert to following the infantry rules like the Codex says.

The Winged entry in the Tyranid Codex is worded CORRECTLY and you MUST follow ALL the Jump Infantry rules. This does mean ALL of it, because you ARE a jump infantry model in ALL ways.

Not just movement, but movement AND difficult terrain.

The Winged entry allows you to deep strike from the Chaos Codex, but if it did not say that SPECIFICALLY then you could NOT deep strike because you are NOT a jump infantry model.

Can you see it now?

Maybe if Yak posted this, everyone would jump on the love bandwagon and we'd have agreement.

FFS.

The faq says move LIKE Jump infantry not AS jump infantry. Therefor you cannot move 12" however you may ignore models and terrain for movement purposes.

Stelek wrote:Nowhere does it say they treat difficult terrain as jump infantry because the CODEX does not tell you to follow any other rules, so you revert to following the infantry rules like the Codex says.

It doesn't have to say that they treat difficult terrain as Jump Infantry, because it already says that they move like Jump Infantry.

So, to determine how a model that moves like JI moves, you refer to the Movement rules for JI.
The Movement rules for JI state that the model moves 12", and that when they are moving, if that move begins or ends in difficult terrain, they take the test.

Unless you can find something in the codex that says that a model that moves like JI doesn't actually move in order to get around, you have no argument here.

Movement is movement. If something follows a given set of movement rules, then it follows all of that set of movement rules, not just the ones that you personally think should apply.

Wait, I should find something in the rules that makes your argument work for you when you haven't refuted my own argument? That's a neat trick. It's like answering a question with a question.

Jump Infantry models (only) take dangerous terrain tests for moving into terrain. Infantry do not.

Winged Chaos Characters are not Jump Infantry models.

If you have an actual rule to quote instead of more red herrings, please find it and quote it.

I'm waiting for someone (anyone) to actually do a cogent analysis and show rules that contradict what I posted.

Obviously, that isn't you insaniak.

Stelek wrote:Wait, I should find something in the rules that makes your argument work for you when you haven't refuted my own argument?

I haven't refuted your argument because you haven't provided one.

Once again, 'Because I say so' is not an argument.


Instead of snide remarks, how about providing a rule that backs up your apparent belief that moving into difficult terrain isn't moving?

How about instead of everyone focusing on being a total geek with your "HAHA! You didn't provide a true argument because it doesn't follow the argumentation formula!" lets just discuss something and not focus on arguing like children.

Stelek wrote:
Jump Infantry models (only) take dangerous terrain tests for moving into terrain. Infantry do not.

Winged Chaos Characters are not Jump Infantry models.

I think this is a very good start to uncover what the rules are intended to do in this situation. It says Jump Infantry models take dangerous terrain tests for moving into terrain. I think that loophole is purposely there to provide things that move as if they were JI to not have to take those dangerous terrain tests. It's just an advantage for having wings, it's easier for them to avoid injury in terrain. It's one of the reasons why you are actually required to model Chaos Sorcs/Lords with wings instead of Jump Packs if your giving them the wings upgrade. If there isn't a rules distinction between the two then there would be no need to model them differently. The jump packs turn them into Jump Infantry while the Wings just give them the ability to move as if there were jump infantry while they still remain troops.

Now let me provide my own argument (Yeah, I know I just did it) against myself. If the above is the case why even have the Jump Pack upgrade? It honestly doesn't make sense. In the CSM codex they both cost the same and do almost exactly the same thing. In the wings entry it says they move as if they were JI and on the Jump Packs they become JI models. There is a clear and pretty distinct advantage to modeling the wings rather than the Jump Packs other than that extra Jump Packs are easier to come across.

So once again GW has left us unclear rules and we're all bawing at each other over it on the internet now. Looks like it's time for an errata.

Typeline wrote:How about instead of everyone focusing on being a total geek with your "HAHA! You didn't provide a true argument because it doesn't follow the argumentation formula!" lets just discuss something and not focus on arguing like children.

I wasn't asking for a formula. I was asking for Stelek to provide a reason for disregarding the parts of the rule that he chooses to disregard.

It says Jump Infantry models take dangerous terrain tests for moving into terrain.

And by extension, this therefore has to apply to any model that moves as Jump Infantry.

The model is moving.
When it moves, it does so using the rules for Jump Infantry movement.
The rules for Jump Infantry movement say that when Jump Infantry move in difficult terrain, they take the test.
Ergo, models that move as Jump Infantry take the same test.

insaniak wrote:
The rules for Jump Infantry movement say that when Jump Infantry move in difficult terrain, they take the test.
Ergo, models that move as Jump Infantry take the same test.

No the rules for Jump Infantry say that Jump Infantry models take dangerous terrain tests when moving through terrain. Winged Chaos models don't become Jump Infantry models they just move using their rules. No where in the Jump Infantry rules does it simply say "When moving through terrain Jump Infantry make dangerous terrain tests". If it said that, you'd have me by the balls lock, stock and barrel. But it doesn't. I know a lot of people hate it when Stelek is right, even I do most of the time. But just because he is right here doesn't mean you should hop to the other side because the unpopular guy is on the right one.

Typeline wrote: ...they just move using their rules.

Right. So when moving, so far as the rules are concerned, they are Jump Infantry models.

They follow all of the movement rules for Jump Infantry. They have to, because otherwise, they're not moving as Jump Infantry.



Edit: Meanwhile, if I were inclined to take anonymous internet comments personally, I'd probably be offended by the suggestion that I'm immature enough to only be arguing because it's Stelek on the other side. If Yakface had made the same argument, I'd be just as quick to question it. Not because of who he is, but because this is a forum for rules discussion, and in my opinion he is wrong.

Gee, I provided the rules quote and everything else needed to make an argument.

You said "because you say so isn't making it that way", patted yourself on the back, and walked.

Why should I do anything but ignore you? Righto.

Let me see if I can understand the argument...

The FAQ says it "Moves like Jump Infantry"

So now we need to see what that means. We have to answer the question. "What are the rules that tell us how Jump Infantry move?"

So I go to p.52 (Jump Infantry) and look under the Movement section to see how JI move. (Realizing that it lists the difference between JI and Infantry.)
I find a list of 9 things differentiating them from regular infantry:
1)Move up to 12" in the Move phase.
2)This is optional.
3)Can ignore terrain and obstacles.
4)If start/stop in terrain, must take a DT test.
5)May not end on models, impassable terrain.
6)may enter via Deep Strike
7)Fall back 3d6"
8)Move over terrain, but take DT if land on terrain.
9)Cannot end on models/impassable.

All of these are different sentences from the Movement Section under Jump Infantry.
From what I can tell, you are asserting that only 1) and 3) actually 'count' as movement rules.

I think I understand your assertion, I just am not sure why you picked only 1) and 3).

insaniak wrote:

Right. So when moving, so far as the rules are concerned, they are Jump Infantry models.

They follow all of the movement rules for Jump Infantry. They have to, because otherwise, they're not moving as Jump Infantry.

You must not own the CSM Codex. Here is the entire Wing Entry

Codex:Chaos Space Marines wrote:
Wings
Wings enable the wearer to sweep effortlessly across the battlefield and glide over short distances. Wings allow the flyer to travel incredibly quickly, passing over obstructions and swiftly racing into close combat. Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. In addition, models that have wings can be dropped from low-flying gunships. They can be kept in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules (see the Mission Special Rules section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).

That is page 85 on the right hand side about mid page (Above the picture of the grenades, combi weapons, bolt pistol and (ironically enough) some wings.

Here are the rules from the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook concerning Jump Infantry. This is the part your arguing for. And it's page 52 the left hand side in case you need to go borrow your neighbors on this one. It has the header movement on it.

Warhammer 40,000 rulebook wrote:
Movement
Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase. This is optional if they wish. When using jump packs, they can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test. Jump infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain, except that they can end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do that, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain. All jump infantry units may enter the battle by 'deep strike', as explained on page 95.

Now I know your not really going to read this or go open your rules book so let me show you these quotes again and pay close attention this time. Here is the Codex: Chaos Space Marines quote again, with a little something underlined.

Codex:Chaos Space Marines wrote:
Wings
Wings enable the wearer to sweep effortlessly across the battlefield and glide over short distances. Wings allow the flyer to travel incredibly quickly, passing over obstructions and swiftly racing into close combat. Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. In addition, models that have wings can be dropped from low-flying gunships. They can be kept in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules (see the Mission Special Rules section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).

Ok given that lets go check out those rules.

Warhammer 40,000 rulebook wrote:
Movement
Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase. This is optional if they wish. When using jump packs, they can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test. Jump infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain, except that they can end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do that, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain. All jump infantry units may enter the battle by 'deep strike', as explained on page 95.

Now I know you still have a doubt in your mind, I guess. So here is the Jump Pack upgrade Choas has access to. This is from Codex: Chaos Space Marines again

Codex: Chaos Space Marines wrote:
Jump Pack
Jump packs contain jets or turbines that can lift even heavy power armour from the ground. A warrior equipped with a jump pack can make a great bounding leaps across the battlefield. A jump pack allows the wearer to travel incredibly quickly, passing over obstructions and racing swiftly into close combat

Models equipped with jump packs are Jump Infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

In addition, models that are wearing jump packs can be dropped from low-flying gunships, using their jump packs to swoop down onto the battlefield. To represent this they can be kept in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules (see the Mission Special Rules section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).

Now something there is a little odd. It's not exactly the same as the Wings entry lets go grab that entry again to have a quick reference for ourselves. This time I'll add a little emphasis.

Codex:Chaos Space Marines wrote:
Wings
Wings enable the wearer to sweep effortlessly across the battlefield and glide over short distances. Wings allow the flyer to travel incredibly quickly, passing over obstructions and swiftly racing into close combat. Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. In addition, models that have wings can be dropped from low-flying gunships. They can be kept in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules (see the Mission Special Rules section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).

You might be thinking "That is the same part as last time! Yeah I know, funny huh? Here is where it is different from the Jump Packs entry. I'll add some emphasis here too. Just to show that they are two distinct things and do different things.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines wrote:
Jump Pack
Jump packs contain jets or turbines that can lift even heavy power armour from the ground. A warrior equipped with a jump pack can make a great bounding leaps across the battlefield. A jump pack allows the wearer to travel incredibly quickly, passing over obstructions and racing swiftly into close combat

Models equipped with jump packs are Jump Infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

In addition, models that are wearing jump packs can be dropped from low-flying gunships, using their jump packs to swoop down onto the battlefield. To represent this they can be kept in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules (see the Mission Special Rules section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).

And there you have it the models that actually have Jump Packs are Jump Infantry and will be taking dangerous terrain test when they begin or end a move in terrain. But models that have wings won't because they aren't jump infantry they just move like them and when you move like jump infantry you take dangerous terrain tests if your a jump infantry model. But those models with wings, however, are not jump infantry models. They are infantry models that move like jump infantry. Here is that Jump infantry entry one last time to show you again what you need to be reading.

Warhammer 40,000 rulebook wrote:
Movement
Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase. This is optional if they wish. When using jump packs, they can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test. Jump infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain, except that they can end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do that, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain. All jump infantry units may enter the battle by 'deep strike', as explained on page 95.

Now for an added bonus here is a column directly next to the Jump infantry movement section that also helps support my argument. Remember it's on page 52 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. If you've got the fantasy one, that's the wrong one. Go get the one with guns on it. This entry is in a big gray box to the right of the movement section.

Warhammer 40,000 rulebook wrote:
Different Unit Types
So far the rules have just dealt with troops that move around on foot - infantry. This section covers different unit types, and these not only add new tactical elements to your games, but also more complexity to the rules. These unit types have different rules for the way they move, how terrain affects them, how far they can assault, and so on. You will find that Codexes often add even more changes and exceptions for specific models. In any given situation during a battle, if the Codex doesn't say any different, follow the rules for the appropriate unit type, and if those rules don't say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry.

If you're just starting out, you may find it easier to use just infantry units in your first game or two, while you get used to the basic rules. On the other hand, if you do want to jump straight in, we suggest that you just read those unit type rules that apply to models in your collection

Now that that is out in the open lets give it another good read through? Notice something? I did, let me show you.

Warhammer 40,000 rulebook wrote:
Different Unit Types
So far the rules have just dealt with troops that move around on foot - infantry. This section covers different unit types, and these not only add new tactical elements to your games, but also more complexity to the rules. These unit types have different rules for the way they move, how terrain affects them, how far they can assault, and so on. You will find that Codexes often add even more changes and exceptions for specific models. In any given situation during a battle, if the Codex doesn't say any different, follow the rules for the appropriate unit type, and if those rules don't say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry.

If you're just starting out, you may find it easier to use just infantry units in your first game or two, while you get used to the basic rules. On the other hand, if you do want to jump straight in, we suggest that you just read those unit type rules that apply to models in your collection

I'm really not making an argument here. You see in this post I'm stating facts and showing them to you. So there you have it Insaniak.

Typeline: So by that logic

Jump infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain

They *can* land on impassable terrain, since they aren't 'really' JI models.

Jump infantry fall back 3D6",

They also only fall back 2d6"

When using jump packs, they can
move over all other models and all terrain freely.

Since they are *not* using jump packs... .the can't ignore models and terrain.

Hmmm coredump that last bit is an interesting point. lol

Man I wish GW could write clearer rules.

coredump wrote:Typeline: So by that logic

Jump infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain

They *can* land on impassable terrain, since they aren't 'really' JI models.

Jump infantry fall back 3D6",

They also only fall back 2d6"

When using jump packs, they can
move over all other models and all terrain freely.

Since they are *not* using jump packs... .the can't ignore models and terrain.

No no coredump, I'm not doing a logic exercise. Those are pointless. Those are the rules.

Edit: Your quoting the Jump pack rules out of context anyway.

Stelek wrote:Why should I do anything but ignore you? Righto.

Assuming you're actually participating in this discussion, the answer would be to show that you're not, in fact, just claiming that it works that way because you say so.

Since you seem to prefer making snide remarks to actually providing an argument, I'm certainly not holding my breath waiting for you to provide something relevant to the discussion.



Typeline... all of that, and you're still missing the point.

If the model moves as Jump Infantry, it follows the movement rules for Jump Infantry.
If the model is Jump Infantry, then it follows all of the rules for Jump Infantry.

That's the difference between Jump Packs and Wings.

You can't just pick out the rules you want from the Jump Infantry Movement rules and claim that those are the only rules that apply. There is simply no logic to that claim.

If any of the JI Movement rules apply to a model that moves as JI, then all of the JI Movement rules must apply to that model.

If you have anything new to add, and are prepared to discuss it rationally without all the cute little remarks, feel free. Otherwise, I'm done here.

insaniak wrote:

If the model moves as Jump Infantry, it follows the movement rules for Jump Infantry.
If the model is Jump Infantry, then it follows all of the rules for Jump Infantry.

That's the difference between Jump Packs and Wings.

You can't just pick out the rules you want from the Jump Infantry Movement rules and claim that those are the only rules that apply. There is simply no logic to that claim.

If any of the JI Movement rules apply to a model that moves as JI, then all of the JI Movement rules must apply to that model.

If you have anything new to add, and are prepared to discuss it rationally without all the cute little remarks, feel free. Otherwise, I'm done here.

No your missing it though. I didn't pick and choose anything. It says those things. I got all of it down. I know models that are jump infantry follow all the rules for jump infantry. I put all the rules for jump infantry down up on page 2. I never picked out the ones I wanted. If I wanted to do that I wouldn't post what the rules say then highlight things, hell I wouldn't post the rules. I would do like everyone else is doing making a bunch of statements on conjecture. I just showed you which portions of each part to read because those portions pertained to what we're talking about.

And the weird thing is is that this

Insaniak wrote:
If any of the JI Movement rules apply to a model that moves as JI, then all of the JI Movement rules must apply to that model.

doesn't appear in the rules.

Insaniak you can't pick and choose which rules to follow, you have to read them all then follow what applies to each individual model.

And please consider this as me not adding anything new, I'd love for you to go away right now. Your being too stubborn to actually offer a rebuttal.

Hold on people lets be civil here. Stelek why do you believe that not all of the movement rules apply to models with wings? Is it because it says that only jump infantry models take dangerous terrain tests? By that token they also can't move 12" because it says jump infantry models may move 12" right?

@Red_Lives:

Can you quote the rule that says 'jump infantry models' move 12" please?

Quote it exactly.

Thanks.

ok...
BRB p 52
"Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equilivent) and move 12" in the movement phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish. When using jump packs they can move over other models and all terrain freely. However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it mus take a difficult terrain test."

Phew thats a long one

Thanks.

I wonder if you see the point then?

I'm guessing not.

Jump Infantry is a term, and you can see how it relates to the Chaos Winged wargear by the 'or equivalent' sentence.

Remember that Jump Infantry models are in fact those Jump Infantry with the Jump Infantry 'type' (just as Artillery, Beasts, Cavalry, Infantry, Bikes, Jet Packs, Jetbikes, and Monstrous Creatures are all defined).

Next sentence.

This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry.

Next sentence.

When using jump packs they can move over other models and all terrain freely.

Don't forget GW has explicitly stated 'or equivalent' and do not need to say this again.

Next sentence.

So, NOW does it say 'Jump Infantry' or 'Jump Infantry Model'?

A Jump Infantry Model HAS the 'Jump Infantry' unit type.

As stated in the FAQ, 'Winged' does not change your unit type.

Why are Winged models affected by difficult terrain?

Their type of model is INFANTRY because neither the FAQ nor the Codex say you are jump infantry models--GW was quite explicit about this, with a big fat 'NO'.

I don't know why, but there it is.

Finally, an actual rational post. Thank you, Stelek.

Stelek wrote:Jump Infantry is a term, and you can see how it relates to the Chaos Winged wargear by the 'or equivalent' sentence.

The 'or equivalent' doesn't refer to Chaos Wings, because that rules section is talking specifically about Jump Infantry, which we've already established that a model with wings is not.

The 'or equivalent' is refering to things like Hawk Wings. It's there to explain that Jump Infantry benefit from these rules whether their flight is a result of a piece of equipment specifically called a 'Jump Pack' or from some other piece of equipment that does the same job.

A Jump Infantry Model HAS the 'Jump Infantry' unit type.

As stated in the FAQ, 'Winged' does not change your unit type.

Wings don't need to change the unit type. The Jump Infantry section refers to Jump Infantry models because it is the section that contains the rules specific to Jump Infantry.

Wings dont change the unit type... but they do cause the model to follow the same rules. So, as far as the Jump Infantry movement rules are concerned, (but only so far as the JI movement rules are concerned) the model counts as a Jump Infantry model.

Stelek wrote:Thanks.

I wonder if you see the point then?

I'm guessing not.

Jump Infantry is a term, and you can see how it relates to the Chaos Winged wargear by the 'or equivalent' sentence.

Remember that Jump Infantry models are in fact those Jump Infantry with the Jump Infantry 'type' (just as Artillery, Beasts, Cavalry, Infantry, Bikes, Jet Packs, Jetbikes, and Monstrous Creatures are all defined).

Next sentence.

This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry.

Next sentence.

When using jump packs they can move over other models and all terrain freely.

Don't forget GW has explicitly stated 'or equivalent' and do not need to say this again.

Next sentence.

So, NOW does it say 'Jump Infantry' or 'Jump Infantry Model'?

A Jump Infantry Model HAS the 'Jump Infantry' unit type.

As stated in the FAQ, 'Winged' does not change your unit type.

Why are Winged models affected by difficult terrain?

Their type of model is INFANTRY because neither the FAQ nor the Codex say you are jump infantry models--GW was quite explicit about this, with a big fat 'NO'.

I don't know why, but there it is.

your entire basis on the argument was because they added the word model... which may i add was only added to maintain proper English and grammar skills.

"However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it must take a difficult terrain test." -Proper English

"However, if a moving jump infantry begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it must take a difficult terrain test." - Incorrect English grammar

Sigh. Until GW says 'YES', they will never follow the rules for Jump Pack models. They move 12", and that's it. So far all you keep saying is "I SAY IT ISN'T AND IT ISN'T!".

I like especially how you say 'I choose to know the mind of GW, and reveal unto thee that they did not mean 'Wings' when they wrote 'or equivalent ' indeed they really meant 'what I say they mean as long as it does not agree with you'.

Congrats. Now I won't even click 'show this post'.

RedLives, here is another version.

"However, if jump infantry models begin or end their move in difficult terrain they must take a difficult terrain test."

Nice try with the semantic red herring though.

Total waste of time.

... was I just attacked for semantics by the king of semantics?
Isn't the fact that the wording of "However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it must take a difficult terrain test." is justification that chaos models with wings don't follow this rule, the definition of semantics?! Simply because of the slight change it sentence structure because it was written by someone who knows English as a 2ond language.

The entire Jump Infantry rules section is written in reference to "Jump Infantry" or "Jump Infantry model" because that is the unit type the rules are for.

There is no difference between the two terms. Saying "Jump Infantry" is exactly the same thing as saying "Jump Infantry model".

There is no situation where a reference for "Jump Infantry" isn't referencing a "model" as well. Only models can be Jump Infantry.

There is no situation where a "Jump Infantry model" is not also "Jump Infantry."


They are just two ways of writing the exact same thing.



It does not matter what term they use to describe Jump Infantry in the Jump Infantry section of the rules.

The only thing that matters is that we have a collection of rules that describe how Jump Infantry function. If a model "moves as Jump Infantry" you have to look at the Jump Infantry section and any (and all) rules that dictate how Jump Infantry move must be followed.

Doesn't matter what the rules say, eh?

Another 'I say it is so IT IS' argument.

The fact that GW said NO makes no sense unless the rules as written (and as I've explained countless times and not been refuted so far) mean what I have pointed out they do.

Use of bold and italics doesn't make what I say any more compelling when you are not emphasizing a fact, you are merely highlighting your opinion. I like how you make broad statements that are not factual.

There is no situation where a "Jump Infantry model" is not also "Jump Infantry."

Says who? You?

Why don't you ask GW why they said 'No' then?

Specifically, a fact they did state:

Q: Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?

A: No, it simply allows the model to move like jump infantry.

What possible effect could there be in the game other than Chaos models with Wings don't take tests for entering difficult terrain?

If you can get an explanation (or conjure one up), great.

Since l don't wanna get banned, I'll shut up now.

This argument is dumb, stelek can't come up with reasonable justification on why he believes he is correct. His entire basis is because it referenced jump infantry SLIGHTLY different. Just lock the thread, and stop this foolishness.

I've said it how many times?

6? 7?

Not one of you has quoted the rules.

Your opinion is nice, but that's all it is.

Maybe I should PM my arguments in this forum to others so they can get the point across without getting trash canned.

Stelek wrote:I've said it how many times?

6? 7?

Not one of you has quoted the rules.

Your opinion is nice, but that's all it is.

Maybe I should PM my arguments in this forum to others so they can get the point across without getting trash canned.

HEY I TAKE OFFENSE TO THAT!!!! I QUOTED THE RULES!!!

Oops you got me.

I'll rephrase:

You (you specifically) did not quote a rule that contradicted what I said, it just reinforced it.

How's that?

Under your line of logic:
p 52
"Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equilivent) and move 12" in the movement phase."

models with wings can't move 12" because they are not jump infantry. Since it was already stated:

GW website
"Q. Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?
A. No, it simply allows the model to move like jump infantry."

1. since they are NOT jump infantry they can't move 12"

2. they *can* land on impassable terrain, since they aren't 'really' JI models.

3. Since they are *not* jump infantry... .the can't ignore models and terrain.

"Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equilivent) and move 12" in the movement phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish. When using jump packs they can move over other models and all terrain freely. However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it mus take a difficult terrain test."

Since you don't want to follow that whole paragraph about JUMP INFANTRY MOVEMENT fine models with wings don't follow any of it, now you have a pointless upgrade, happy now?

Moving as is something I explained. Read all my posts again.

Counting as is something I explained. Read all my posts again.

Someday, someone will not create their own view and pass it off as rules but instead use the actual rules as I have and prove me wrong.

Or just give up and realize GW makes flawed rules and this is one of them.

It's a shocker, I know. GW made a bad call.

Stelek wrote:
Someday, someone will not create their own view and pass it off as rules .

Anyone else find this funny? Because i can't stop laughing.

Stelek wrote:

There is no situation where a "Jump Infantry model" is not also "Jump Infantry."

Says who? You?

Why don't you ask GW why they said 'No' then?

Specifically, a fact they did state:

Q: Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?

A: No, it simply allows the model to move like jump infantry.

What possible effect could there be in the game other than Chaos models with Wings don't take tests for entering difficult terrain?

If you can get an explanation (or conjure one up), great.

Since l don't wanna get banned, I'll shut up now.

Stelek:

I am not saying that a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry is the same as a "Jump Infantry" model, so I don't know why you are attempting to claim that I am.

For example, a Jump Infantry model cannot embark on a transport while a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry could. Also if a mission rule prevented Jump Infantry from deploying, again it would not apply to a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry.


However, there is absolutely no difference from a rules perspective of saying "Jump Infantry" and "Jump Infantry model" as those two terms mean exactly the same thing.

P1. All "Jump Infantry" are models.
P2. All "Jump Infantry models" are also "Jump Infantry".

C. "Jump Infantry" means the same thing as "Jump Infantry model".


So I am simply trying to point out that you cannot claim that the use of these two different terms throughout the Jump Infantry rules somehow means two different things (because it doesn't).



But back to the real bone of contention:

"However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."


We agree that this applies to Jump Infantry models. However, a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry must follow all the rules for moving like Jump Infantry (again I hope we can agree on that).

So the only question we have to answer is:

Is the rule quoted above a movement rule or not? If it is, then it must apply to models that "move like" Jump Infantry.


The fact is, the rules is found in the "Movement" section of the Jump Infantry rules and it seems to clearly (to me) be a test that has to be taken depending on how a Jump Infantry model moves. All it is saying is:

If the Jump Infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it must take a dangerous terrain test. If not, it does not have to take said test.

If that is not a rule defining how exactly a Jump Infantry models is allowed/not allowed to move, then I don't know what is.


And if you can agree that the rule is indeed a rule governing the movement of Jump Infantry models then there is absolutely no way to claim that such a rule would not apply to a model that moves like Jump Infantry.

Stelek wrote:Sigh. Until GW says 'YES', they will never follow the rules for Jump Pack models.

I'm honestly boggled as to how you come to that conclusion.

'Move as Jump Infantry' means 'move as Jump Infantry'

It's not rocket science.

I like especially how you say 'I choose to know the mind of GW, and reveal unto thee that they did not mean 'Wings' when they wrote 'or equivalent '

Er... yes... In a section dealing with Jump Infantry, they refer to Jump Infantry. Handy, that.

Stelek wrote:Doesn't matter what the rules say, eh?

Given that you're the one choosing to apply only half of the rules, that statement is laughable beyond belief.

When the rules say that the model moves like Jump Infantry, you apply the movement rules for Jump Infantry.

Why? Because that's what the rules say.

What the rules don't say is that the model moves like Jump Infantry, except when entering or leaving difficult terrain...

Why don't you ask GW why they said 'No' then?

Specifically, a fact they did state:

Q: Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?
A: No, it simply allows the model to move like jump infantry.

Er... because they wanted the model to move as Jump Infantry without actually counting as Jump Infantry?

What possible effect could there be in the game other than Chaos models with Wings don't take tests for entering difficult terrain?

Already answered earlier in the thread...

Looks like those arguing for the terrain tests are actually arguing that wings makes you jump infantry, so you will follow all those rules. But the FAQ(and wing entry) actually says you dont, you only move as them. Cant see how it can be argued that they are "jump pack models" or whatever, when specifically told they arent.

The only thing is maybe if the difficult terrain test is part of the movement of "jump infantry", but it seems to be under another part of the jump infantry rules.

Wow Kallbrand owned me.

Said all I wanted to say and it in under 50 words.

Damnit. I hate being pwned, especially accidently!

Kallbrand wrote:Looks like those arguing for the terrain tests are actually arguing that wings makes you jump infantry, so you will follow all those rules. But the FAQ(and wing entry) actually says you dont, you only move as them. Cant see how it can be argued that they are "jump pack models" or whatever, when specifically told they arent.

I certainly never implied that winged models follow all the rules for Jump Infantry, just the ones for movement.

The only thing is maybe if the difficult terrain test is part of the movement of "jump infantry", but it seems to be under another part of the jump infantry rules.

What part of the rules does that seem to be under?

It's in the "Movement" section of the Jump Infantry rules. The rule is in direct relation to how Jump Infantry models move. Dangerous terrain tests (in general) are found in the "movement" section of the rulebook.

In what possible way are Jump Infantry taking dangerous terrain tests for moving into/out of terrain *not* part of the movement rules?

That rule doesnt seem to regard how they move though, wich is supposedly the only part of the rule you take into account if you are using "move as".

What would the diffrence be in your mind with "counts as" against "move as", since you seem to imply they are the same in all but name.

yeah,
jolly good arguement you have going on here... seems pretty clear now, you use the Jump infantry Movement rules and that means dangerous terrain tests which is how i've been playing it anyways... but it's not all a waste of time I did learn some thing from all this though my daemon prince can deep strike, and that's cool.

I think you take the dangerous terrain Test.
But it's a Pitty wings don't get you around the dangerous terrain test, it would have been quite fluffy as wings are much more dextrous than jump packs, an I ain't never seen batman get clumped by a tree...

PaniC..

edit: seems people arn't finnished arguing quite yet!

Kallbrand wrote:Looks like those arguing for the terrain tests are actually arguing that wings makes you jump infantry, so you will follow all those rules. But the FAQ(and wing entry) actually says you dont, you only move as them. Cant see how it can be argued that they are "jump pack models" or whatever, when specifically told they arent.

The only thing is maybe if the difficult terrain test is part of the movement of "jump infantry", but it seems to be under another part of the jump infantry rules.

That's a good way to boil it down, however there is an important caveat. A winged model may move as Jump Infantry, and so I would argue is treated, in all ways and by all rules, as Jump Infantry for the purposes of movement.

Any model that moves is subject to the standard movement rules, and any model that moves as Jump Infantry is subject to the rules for how Jump Infantry work. A model with wings that begins in difficult terrain is bound by the rules for difficult terrain, which is normally 2d6 pick the highest. A Jump Infantry model, of course, can always move 12", but must make dangerous terrain tests.

I think the key phrase is how the rules for wings is worded. "Models... with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described..." If the rule had been "move as if they were jump infantry," then I think there would be some debate. Stating "move in the same way as Jump Infantry" means that all movement rules for Jump Infantry apply. How does Jump Infantry move? It can move 12", ignore terrain, takes dangerous terrain tests, etc.

Yes, the rule does say that only a moving JI model, not a model moving as JI takes the test. to argue that a winged model is not bound by this would require tailoring a definition of "move in the same way as JI" that somehow includes faster movement but does not include how to handle difficult terrain. Yes, it's a gap in the rules, and there's a decent RAW argument to be made there, but it's not clear, as to think that a winged model ignores all terrain penalties requires reading the Winged rule grants a status, but can ignore aspects of that status. It also requires reading the rules for dangerous tests narrowly, as "models with the Jump Infantry status", not "Models that move as Jump Infantry."

In short, I would simply argue that the Winged rule allows a model to use the movement rules for Jump Infantry, and that includes things that only affect "jump infantry," even if they're still infantry. Clearly most folks have made up their mind, and it's obviously close, but IMO the larger context of the movement rules means they are subject to all movement rules.

Like I said before:

If you have the ability to move as jump infantry, where would you go to find the rules that define how you could move your model (whatever type it is)?

Personally, I would check:

Section: Unit Types
Subsection: Jump Infantry
Paragraph: Movement

This is of course on page 52.

How else are you to define how your winged model will move, than by looking at the rules for Jump Infantry Movement?

Clearly if you have a MC or Infantry model that is allowed to move as Jump Infantry because you bought wings for it, then it must follow some movement rules?

If you chose not to use your wings on the DP, by all means, roll your 3D6 for "move through cover", but if you choose to use the wings, you have to then follow the rules for Jump Infantry Movement, and treat the model as a jump infantry model during the movement phase.

yakface wrote:

Stelek wrote:

There is no situation where a "Jump Infantry model" is not also "Jump Infantry."

Says who? You?

Why don't you ask GW why they said 'No' then?

Specifically, a fact they did state:

Q: Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?

A: No, it simply allows the model to move like jump infantry.

What possible effect could there be in the game other than Chaos models with Wings don't take tests for entering difficult terrain?

If you can get an explanation (or conjure one up), great.

Since l don't wanna get banned, I'll shut up now.

Stelek:

I am not saying that a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry is the same as a "Jump Infantry" model, so I don't know why you are attempting to claim that I am.

For example, a Jump Infantry model cannot embark on a transport while a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry could. Also if a mission rule prevented Jump Infantry from deploying, again it would not apply to a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry.


However, there is absolutely no difference from a rules perspective of saying "Jump Infantry" and "Jump Infantry model" as those two terms mean exactly the same thing.

P1. All "Jump Infantry" are models.
P2. All "Jump Infantry models" are also "Jump Infantry".

C. "Jump Infantry" means the same thing as "Jump Infantry model".

Only if all "Jump Infantry" are "Jump Infantry models" as well.

yakface wrote:

I am not saying that a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry is the same as a "Jump Infantry" model, so I don't know why you are attempting to claim that I am.

For example, a Jump Infantry model cannot embark on a transport while a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry could. Also if a mission rule prevented Jump Infantry from deploying, again it would not apply to a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry.


However, there is absolutely no difference from a rules perspective of saying "Jump Infantry" and "Jump Infantry model" as those two terms mean exactly the same thing.

P1. All "Jump Infantry" are models.
P2. All "Jump Infantry models" are also "Jump Infantry".

C. "Jump Infantry" means the same thing as "Jump Infantry model".


So I am simply trying to point out that you cannot claim that the use of these two different terms throughout the Jump Infantry rules somehow means two different things (because it doesn't).



But back to the real bone of contention:

"However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."


We agree that this applies to Jump Infantry models. However, a model that "moves like" Jump Infantry must follow all the rules for moving like Jump Infantry (again I hope we can agree on that).

So the only question we have to answer is:

Is the rule quoted above a movement rule or not? If it is, then it must apply to models that "move like" Jump Infantry.


The fact is, the rules is found in the "Movement" section of the Jump Infantry rules and it seems to clearly (to me) be a test that has to be taken depending on how a Jump Infantry model moves. All it is saying is:

If the Jump Infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it must take a dangerous terrain test. If not, it does not have to take said test.

If that is not a rule defining how exactly a Jump Infantry models is allowed/not allowed to move, then I don't know what is.


And if you can agree that the rule is indeed a rule governing the movement of Jump Infantry models then there is absolutely no way to claim that such a rule would not apply to a model that moves like Jump Infantry.

Seems pretty clear to me and I agree with you Yak. This is also how my gaming group plays it (Winged Daemons who move 12" like a jump infantry have to take a dangerous terrain test if they land in/on difficult terrain.

-------------------------------

Of course... I question the need for that rule altogether . Do we really need terrain that plays one way for one troop type and another for everyone else?

If a jump infantry lands on an upper story building (Ruin/Arena terrain) and even though the landing location looks perfectly flat/easy to land on, does it really need to make a difficult terrain test? (Why?)

Jump infantry already cost more than other units, do they need to be penalized for moving in/out of terrain (aka die to just moving around)? My personally thoughts are they do not and hate that GW added this rule in. The game imo would have played quicker and easier if it was omitted.

But that's not really my call to make...

-Jara

Stelek has the advantage here in that a supposedly permissive ruleset means that if something "moves as" jump infantry it may or may not "land as" or "leave terrain as" other jump infantry. Wording is powerful for powergamers.

Regardless, I'll just ignore Stelek despite "knowing in my heart of hearts by RAW" that he's correct, and make tests for my princes and lords, and not allow lords with wings to ride in vehicles.

Because sometimes playing as RAI is more fun. I mean look at the combat drug rules from the old chaos codex! By RAW, I could make every aspiring champion and character in my army completely and utterly unkillable for the whole game, but that wouldn't be any fun

Spellbound wrote:Stelek has the advantage here in that a supposedly permissive ruleset means that if something "moves as" jump infantry it may or may not "land as" or "leave terrain as" other jump infantry.

There is nothing in the rules about 'landing' or 'leaving terrain'

Just the rule that says that if they begin or end their move in difficult terrain, they take the test.


So no, Stelek's not correct by RAW. It's a movement rule for Jump Infantry. If a model moves like Jump Infantry, it must follow the movement rules for Jump Infantry. All of them.

Hey I know, why doesn't everyone just repeat their opinions endlessly....

It is important to note that chaos lords with wings are NOT jump infantry. The just follow the paragraph on p. 52 about jump infantry movement... all of it. Not just the may move 12" part.

And may i ask stelek how would you treat models with wings moving into a forest? Must they roll 2d6 and pick the highest since they are infantry? Or do you think they move like jump infantry without the downsides?

Red_Lives wrote:It is important to note that chaos lords with wings are NOT jump infantry. The just follow the paragraph on p. 52 about jump infantry movement... all of it. Not just the may move 12" part.

And may i ask stelek how would you treat models with wings moving into a forest? Must they roll 2d6 and pick the highest since they are infantry? Or do you think they move like jump infantry without the downsides?

Listen we've been through this already, a number of times. The rules are unclear, UNCLEAR! We looked through the rules. Winged models move as JI but aren't JI models. There are a lot of references in the rules to JI Models but we don't know if that applies to JI and those moving as JI anything anyone says about it (even Stelek and I) is just conjecture. We are saying that they should move as JI but don't follow any restrictions for JI models when they state that JI models have a restrictions. Yes this creates an extreme amount of ambiguity and rules conundrums. But why have the "must models wings" restriction to them if there is not a benefit? I see where everyone else is coming from as well. If you simply treat winged units as JI it's awwwwww right.

So all this rabble rabble won't get us anywhere. Suck it up, they will FAQ it eventually (probably a long eventually though).

We know the rules are unclear. So stop bawwing at us and just shrug your shoulders and take it up with your group to see how they want to play it.

This argument really doesn't effective me as I run a crap list with no wings (Just thought I'd throw that in there, I'm pretty nuetral).

I fail to see the argument. It isn't at all unclear. It moves as JI and therefore take the restrictions and take a difficult terrain test.

Pg 52 is pretty conclusive, but the paragraph that clears it up is the fullback rules for JI.

"JI fall back 3d6 because they always use their jump packs when doing this.They move over any terrain and models when doing this, but if they end in their move in difficult terrain they must still take a DT."

If a lord with wings moves as JI, when it falls back it must use its jump pack or wings to do so. Therefore the DT rules apply. If they apply in this case why wouldn't they apply during normal movement.

"However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it must take a difficult terrain test."

Stelek, how do you get your models to roll their saves? Mine always just stare blankly at me until I roll the saves for them.

I think we are focusing too much on the "model" aspect. Taking the sentance perfectly literally, one assumes the model itself must roll the dice, since taking a test requires rolling dice. If one doesn't take the individual words perfectly literally, it makes much more sense in that, as stated, the word "model" is merely used to denote that the test is on a per model basis. In other words, "model" signifies that you do not take one test for the whole squad, and neither do you roll tests for those models that did not travel through (in or out) or difficult terrain.

Though if you really can get your models to take tests for you, let me know. My lazy bitches have been slacking!

Someone with wings doesnt become a jump infantry model, pretty simple. They just move as them.

Kallbrand wrote:Someone with wings doesnt become a jump infantry model, pretty simple. They just move as them.

Right, an what exactly is this adding to the discussion. No-one is disagreeing with this part - the question is how to DT rules that applying to it.

The whole reason I just don't get this discussion is if a lord is moving through the air using JI rules and lands in DT is he not still moving as JI? Or are we saying 1/2inch above the ground he reverts to just infantry and the DT rules that apply to how JI move in the movement phase suddenly don't apply.

What am I missing?

fullheadofhair wrote:

Kallbrand wrote:Someone with wings doesnt become a jump infantry model, pretty simple. They just move as them.

Right, an what exactly is this adding to the discussion. No-one is disagreeing with this part - the question is how to DT rules that applying to it.

The whole reason I just don't get this discussion is if a lord is moving through the air using JI rules and lands in DT is he not still moving as JI? Or are we saying 1/2inch above the ground he reverts to just infantry and the DT rules that apply to how JI move in the movement phase suddenly don't apply.

What am I missing?

It's not that he is moving as JI when he lands in the terrain it is that he is not a JI model. The rule says JI models take the DT test when beginning/ending in terrain. That is what your missing. The entire rules section, however, never mentions that the term JI and JI model are being used interchangeably. The rules are unclear.

Typeline wrote:

fullheadofhair wrote:

Kallbrand wrote:Someone with wings doesnt become a jump infantry model, pretty simple. They just move as them.

Right, an what exactly is this adding to the discussion. No-one is disagreeing with this part - the question is how to DT rules that applying to it.

The whole reason I just don't get this discussion is if a lord is moving through the air using JI rules and lands in DT is he not still moving as JI? Or are we saying 1/2inch above the ground he reverts to just infantry and the DT rules that apply to how JI move in the movement phase suddenly don't apply.

What am I missing?

It's not that he is moving as JI when he lands in the terrain it is that he is not a JI model. The rule says JI models take the DT test when beginning/ending in terrain. That is what your missing. The entire rules section, however, never mentions that the term JI and JI model are being used interchangeably. The rules are unclear.

And how do you get past the fall back rules? You think they only go 2d6? It doesn't say just JI use the 3d6 movement to fall back.

Also, the rules on pg52 start by saying "JI can use their jumps packs ..." if it goes on to say "however, if a moving JI model begins or ends its move in DT....". If a model is moving as JI by using their jump pack and following the movement rules in the MOVEMENT section for JI to say that a movement penalty (that is in the JI MOVEMENT rules) doesn't apply is just plain illogical.

I will bet that this is not FAQ'ed because often they refuse to FAQ something that they do not believe is clear.

fullheadofhair wrote:

And how do you get past the fall back rules? You think they only go 2d6? It doesn't say just JI use the 3d6 movement to fall back.

Also, the rules on pg52 start by saying "JI can use their jumps packs ..." if it goes on to say "however, if a moving JI model begins or ends its move in DT....". If a model is moving as JI by using their jump pack and following the movement rules in the MOVEMENT section for JI to say that a movement penalty (that is in the JI MOVEMENT rules) doesn't apply is just plain illogical.

I will bet that this is not FAQ'ed because often they refuse to FAQ something that they do not believe is clear.

Oh look! The rules are unclear because of using different terms! This what we're talking about. And why there is a loophole. You can't just sit there and say "illogical". There are many rules in this game that are illogical. If they don't FAQ it get ready to have some movement rules handled differently by different judges.

Typeline wrote:

fullheadofhair wrote:

And how do you get past the fall back rules? You think they only go 2d6? It doesn't say just JI use the 3d6 movement to fall back.

Also, the rules on pg52 start by saying "JI can use their jumps packs ..." if it goes on to say "however, if a moving JI model begins or ends its move in DT....". If a model is moving as JI by using their jump pack and following the movement rules in the MOVEMENT section for JI to say that a movement penalty (that is in the JI MOVEMENT rules) doesn't apply is just plain illogical.

I will bet that this is not FAQ'ed because often they refuse to FAQ something that they do not believe is clear.

Oh look! The rules are unclear because of using different terms! This what we're talking about. And why there is a loophole. You can't just sit there and say "illogical". There are many rules in this game that are illogical. If they don't FAQ it get ready to have some movement rules handled differently by different judges.

It isn't illogical at all. Move as JI and therefore follow the movement rules for JI which are in the "MOVEMENT" section for JI. The effect of DT on the movement of JI are also in the MOVEMENT section. Why wouldn't the DT rules apply to a model moving as JI. This is stretching the rules some what to say other wise.

So you think moving as jump infantry means you are a jump infantry model? Even tho the FAQ says specifcally sais that you do not become one? And thats not illogical?

For the love of God.....


No one is saying that. NO ONE IS SAYING THAT!

The only time it comes up, is when you ask if someone is saying that.


Here is the situation.
Every unit that *is* a Jump infantry unit, must follow *all* of the Jump Infantry rules, no matter where they are.
Every unit that "moves" like JI, but follow all of the "Movement" rules for JI.

So lets determine where those rules would be listed..hmmm...

Lets check in the Jump Infantry Section. Where they list the rules for JI
Now lets look in the Movement section, where they give the *movement* rules, y'know, the ones we have to follow....
And there you go, 9 rules listed out. Those rules are, by definition, the movement rules for Jump Infantry.
In order to 'move' like JI, you need to follow *all* of the rules for movement. Otherwise you only 'sorta move' like JI.

Somehow, you look at the list of rules, under the Movement heading, under the JI heading. And decide "Well *that* rule in the JI MOvement rule section... that rules isn't *really* a movement rule. So I won't follow it.


If you are moving like JI, then that means for the intents and purposes of *movement*, you are considered a JI. Not that you actually are.... but you are considered one for determining which movement rules you must follow.

part of how a JI moves, is by taking tests when landing.... thus if you are 'like' them, you will take one too.

Wow.... I just read 5 pages of people saying the same thing. Are my eyes bleeding?

I think the dispute here is: Are difficult/dangerous terrain tests part of movement?

Yes, it is described in the 'movement' paragraph of every section for each unit. Their written location and played timing are critically part of movement. I still haven't found anything that would indicate otherwise.


P1: Difficult/Dangerous Terrain Tests are part of movement.

P2: Chaos models with the 'wings' upgrade move as Jump Infantry.

P3: Jump infantry take Difficult/Dangerous Terrain Tests a specific way.

C: Chaos models with the 'wings' upgrade follow the Jump Infantry method of test for Dangerous/Difficult Terrain.

While Stelek (and his camp) have been a champions here and made some very compelling arguments. You are hard pressed to ignore that those test are part of movement.

I think that if this is to continue, please state arguments where those tests are not part of movement.

Spellbound wrote:Stelek has the advantage here in that a supposedly permissive ruleset means that if something "moves as" jump infantry it may or may not "land as" or "leave terrain as" other jump infantry. Wording is powerful for powergamers.

There is no such terminology: 'land as' or 'leave terrain as' - that is a farse, and quite possibly THE farse fueling this debate.

Wehrkind wrote:"However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain it must take a difficult terrain test."

Stelek, how do you get your models to roll their saves? Mine always just stare blankly at me until I roll the saves for them.

I think we are focusing too much on the "model" aspect. Taking the sentance perfectly literally, one assumes the model itself must roll the dice, since taking a test requires rolling dice. If one doesn't take the individual words perfectly literally, it makes much more sense in that, as stated, the word "model" is merely used to denote that the test is on a per model basis. In other words, "model" signifies that you do not take one test for the whole squad, and neither do you roll tests for those models that did not travel through (in or out) or difficult terrain.

Though if you really can get your models to take tests for you, let me know. My lazy bitches have been slacking!

Better yet, it doesn't say you have to pass the test, just take it.....

Kallbrand wrote:So you think moving as jump infantry means you are a jump infantry model? Even tho the FAQ says specifcally sais that you do not become one? And thats not illogical?

Where do get that from. What are you reading that even says that? No-one is disagree with that part - please read the thread properly.

Move as JI. Simple as that. Move as, not is.

Therefore follow the movement rules for JI under the MOVEMENT section.

In the MOVEMENT section for JI it says that JI moving in an out of DT take a DT test.

Chaos Lord with wings "MOVES AS" JI. Note - move as, not is.

Chaos Lord "MOVING AS" JI lands in DT therefore takes a DT terrain test.

What is so difficult. Simple English comprehension. Nothing less.

Go read the MOVEMENT section of JI before commenting on this.

Wehrkind wrote:If one doesn't take the individual words perfectly literally, it makes much more sense in that, as stated, the word "model" is merely used to denote that the test is on a per model basis. In other words, "model" signifies that you do not take one test for the whole squad, and neither do you roll tests for those models that did not travel through (in or out) or difficult terrain.

Ok, this part is one of the few things to have added reason to this discussion in some time. GW never uses the term "figure" or anything of the sort. They always use the terms "unit" and "model" to distinguish the difference between a group of figures and a single figure.

As well; the CSM FAQ "does taking "Wings" classify a model as jump infantry?",...... and we have been through the answer several times.

"Jump Infantry," as it turns out, is a UNIT TYPE. I can find no reference or rules for "model types," but there are a whole host resouces for "unit types."

There is a UNIT TYPE summary on pages 4-5, and then the UNIT TYPE details on pages 51-55.

I agree with Wehrkind,..... we are putting too much emphasis on the word "model."