Gleaned the link from Seer (plastic rat):

http://www.war-hammer.com/php/viewthread.php?tid=2726&fpage=1

A few things that popped out at me;

"Scouts can deploy locater beacons which allow for quick Deep Strike Assaults". Emphasis mine....units assaulting the turn they DS?

Scouts can lay booby traps...heard this rumour before but now confirmed.

Chronus in a Crusader will be sick. Ignores shaken/stunned and all of those twin linked weapons fire at BS 5. That's an Ork nightmare.

Tigurius three powers a turn and allows reserve rerolls. This should go over well .

Shrike looks to be a beast...and makes the squad he's with inflitrate.....AND he gives the army fleet. I don't know how useful this is to marines though.

hahaha. space marines, hooooo!!!!!

this just keeps getting better...and more rediculous.

hopefully when it all comes out it plays well and is not just stupid uber.

Biggest thing I saw was:

"Land raiders and drop pods now have an increased capacity of 12 to accommodate 5 terminators and a character in terminator armor."

It appears that this drop pod is going to be for dreadnoughts and thunderfire cannons as well. I am scratching my head about the dreadnought thing though.

I mean. how the hell is it supposed to get out of that 5 door contraption.

Judging by this quip, it seems unlikely that GW will make a dreadnought plastic drop pod. sad.

there is a TON ofvery new info on that site!

nice find!

Hellfury wrote:Biggest thing I saw was:

"Land raiders and drop pods now have an increased capacity of 12 to accommodate 5 terminators and a character in terminator armor."

It appears that this drop pod is going to be for dreadnoughts and thunderfire cannons as well. I am scratching my head about the dreadnought thing though.

I mean. how the hell is it supposed to get out of that 5 door contraption.

Judging by this quip, it seems unlikely that GW will make a dreadnought plastic drop pod. sad.

there is a TON ofvery new info on that site!

nice find!

I still can't get over the wording on the locater beacon. If it means what it says, I could see this happening:

Large Scout biker group turboboost first turn, deploy beacon
Second turn Assault Terminators w/ Chapter Master DS in and assault that turn

Sounds like a specialist rapid assault strike force!

Shocking!

These are just rumors at this point.

And...let's wait to see some points costs before we bust out too many "Spase Marinez!! Hurr!!11!!!" comments.

Please?

AgeOfEgos wrote:I still can't get over the wording on the locater beacon. If it means what it says, I could see this happening:

Large Scout biker group turboboost first turn, deploy beacon
Second turn Assault Terminators w/ Chapter Master DS in and assault that turn

I somewhat agree.

I believe that the locator beacon could very well be just a teleport homer though, much like DA bikes have.

Plus the wording about deepstrike assaults I think you are reading a little much into it perhaps. I don't think it means what you think it means.

I think it is more of an assault in the sense of being a threat, not assault in the way of the GW terminology.

Kind of like: "Fulgrim leads the assault with his army" more than "Fulgrim assaults with his army the same turn they enter the battlefield."

AgeOfEgos wrote:.

Shrike looks to be a beast...and makes the squad he's with inflitrate.....AND he gives the army fleet. I don't know how useful this is to marines though.

I can imagine two or three assault squads jumping their full movement, running a D6, and then assaulting with in another six inches could be a pretty nice ability. I should have stuck with Ravenguard. If DA green wasn't so much better looking then solid black....

Also, it looks like there is a confimation on the price of the drop pod as well.

I don't know what space marines tacticals go for in taiwan, but over here they are $35. This site lists them as J. Drop pods are also price code J.

hence Drop pods $35.

I would say this would be a confirmation of the drop pod price, but the codex is also listed as J on the site as well. We all know the codex is going to be $25.


Hmmm...what to think...what to think....

any one heard anything about the camo cloaks?

"scouts can be equipped with camo cloaks, granting the stealth special rule"

thats pretty nice if its a cheap upgrade

so what about the free specials and heavies in tactical squads that was rumoured could that be the free wargear upgrades they suggest?

hellfire rounds for scout heavy bolters is cool

and the change of the typhoon missile launcher is interesting and makes it a much more plausible choice if it stays cheaper than the assault cannon

Hellfury wrote:Also, it looks like there is a confimation on the price of the drop pod as well.

I don't know what space marines tacticals go for in taiwan, but over here they are $35. This site lists them as J. Drop pods are also price code J.

hence Drop pods $35.

BOLS is listing them for $30.

I don't know how effective they'll be, but I really like the new Scout Bike models, particularly the shotguns and the bike-mounted GL. Vanguard squads get Heroic Intervention to assault when they DS? And Kantor's Stormbolter is Assault 4 AP4? Crazy stuff, mang!

Yeah...but BOLS also get their info primarily from Warseer, Dakka and B&C. Regardless, I am not a fan of the site. Lauded as the place to find rumours, yet they are the ones who usually get the info last.

I am just commenting on how screwy the price is because it is listed as the same price as both the tac squad and codex, which we all know are two separate prices.

Tough 6 and feel no pain on that chap is pretty haus.

The UMs are getting a lot of nice special characters. I hope it clearly spells it out in the book that these characters are supposed to be for any generic marine army to avoid a lot of pointless 'fluff' arguments.

LRs and Drop Pods carrying 6 termies makes up for no more termie command squads.

a bit mistaken on the scout rules there
those special rules (booby traps and locator beacon) are for scout bikers, not scouts

locator beacon just makes units deep striking close to it not scatter

blood angel wrote:Tough 6 and feel no pain on that chap is pretty haus.

The UMs are getting a lot of nice special characters. I hope it clearly spells it out in the book that these characters are supposed to be for any generic marine army to avoid a lot of pointless 'fluff' arguments.

Agreed. I am really kinda tired of the ranting philistine arguments regarding the mixing of different things like that. You want fluff? Go read a fething book.

Eldar set the precedent for this by removing the difference. You can take eldrad and yriel in the same army, why not SM as well?

I am certain there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth though.

deitpike wrote:
locator beacon just makes units deep striking close to it not scatter

In short it operates exactly like an Icon of Chaos.

In short, it works exactly like a teleport homer, which is what it is.

Hellfury wrote:Yeah...but BOLS also get their info primarily from Warseer, Dakka and B&C. Regardless, I am not a fan of the site. Lauded as the place to find rumours, yet they are the ones who usually get the info last.

You must remember the unwashed masses who are lazy is what BOLS is for.

like a teleport homer, but for any unit deep striking (jump packs, drop pods, terminators, land speeders, etc)
Teleport homer only works for termies "teleport" deep striking

Hellfury wrote:

blood angel wrote:Tough 6 and feel no pain on that chap is pretty haus.

The UMs are getting a lot of nice special characters. I hope it clearly spells it out in the book that these characters are supposed to be for any generic marine army to avoid a lot of pointless 'fluff' arguments.

Agreed. I am really kinda tired of the ranting philistine arguments regarding the mixing of different things like that. You want fluff? Go read a fething book.

Eldar set the precedent for this by removing the difference. You can take eldrad and yriel in the same army, why not SM as well?

I am certain there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth though.

Hilarious stuff!

Rar rar hurr?

Points costs better go up, that's all I've got to say. WAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

I guess being Chaotic in this day and age means giving up all your fancy equipment so that your younger loyalist brothers get to play with it.

Anyway, don't care about the rules, only that Tigurius is still in the book.

BYE

*drool* scout toys...

I'm starting to see why one person said a while ago that even though the scout squad was downgraded a bit they'd still be worth taking and could get more expensive very quickly... too many toys.

deitpike wrote:like a teleport homer, but for any unit deep striking (jump packs, drop pods, terminators, land speeders, etc)
Teleport homer only works for termies "teleport" deep striking

Hmmm you're right. That does appear to be the distinction.

Shrike=new speed Prince?

Pedor Kantor gives +1 attack to all friendly modles within 12". Ouch

Typhoon is heavy 2. Yay

Thelion pins and rends with a bolter. Hurrr

still no points listit so I em still not shure how over powerd they are if they are over powert only thingI em notising is that evry new codex gets one troop unit that is realy good for its points looks at rumors of tactical squad and looks at the shoota boy's

Ahh.

If this ever gets to 6th Ed., the LEAST GW could do (for the poor, weedy, undernourished, un-loved SM Players with obviously a MASSIVE disadvantage to EVERY other army) would be to inpose some kind of Power for Commanders...

Exterminatus - 60 Pts.

- On a 4+ (OOH RISKY) destroy every single fricking enemy unit.

So what exactly are the benefits for turning traitor again? I can't remember.

Hellfury wrote:Yeah...but BOLS also get their info primarily from Warseer, Dakka and B&C. Regardless, I am not a fan of the site. Lauded as the place to find rumours, yet they are the ones who usually get the info last.

I am just commenting on how screwy the price is because it is listed as the same price as both the tac squad and codex, which we all know are two separate prices.

I like BoLS, because it allows me to keep up with rumors w/o going through 10 pages of neck-beard nerd rage (see above).

Hellfury wrote:

deitpike wrote:like a teleport homer, but for any unit deep striking (jump packs, drop pods, terminators, land speeders, etc)
Teleport homer only works for termies "teleport" deep striking

Hmmm you're right. That does appear to be the distinction.

Well this would be an 'ok' combination with the new vanguard vets that assault after DS. Of course, once you lay the beacon down people will simply stay over 6'' away. I can't remember with the new rule book, when do you place DS units? Before moving others? If not and simply 'during the movement phase'....then you could move these guys, deploy beacon...then DS vets and assault...

So what exactly are the benefits for turning traitor again? I can't remember.

And the moral of the story is, don't turn traitor kids, because only the losers turn traitor...

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. Isn't that how all roleplaying games work, the good guys get extra weapons and skills and girls and stuff while the bad guys are evil...and get nothing because they stabbed the npcs.

Noisy_Marine wrote:So what exactly are the benefits for turning traitor again? I can't remember.

Really good dental- comes with the extra claws, horns etc.

That and a free bonus CC weapon !!

So... would it be too cheesy to use the loyalist codex for my chaos boys ? Given the boosts that the special characters seem to give much of/the entire army they are in I can see why the Imperium was perhaps quite happy to see people like Lucius and Fabius leave.

Noisy_Marine wrote:So what exactly are the benefits for turning traitor again? I can't remember.

You get to mess with Daemonettes.

Or Plaguebearers, depending on what you prefer.

His Master's Voice wrote:You get to mess with Daemonettes.

They got nerfed recently too

<gw>Deamonettes, now with 100% less boobs!</gw>

Bring on the Cheese!!!!!

Noisy_Marine wrote:So what exactly are the benefits for turning traitor again? I can't remember.

Based on the current CSM codex ....


..... absolutely nothing.

His Master's Voice wrote:

You get to mess with Daemonettes.

Or Plaguebearers, depending on what you prefer.

But the new Daemonettes aren't even hot any more, unless you like the current gender-confused models.

Liber Chaos wrote:

His Master's Voice wrote:

You get to mess with Daemonettes.

Or Plaguebearers, depending on what you prefer.

But the new Daemonettes aren't even hot any more, unless you like the current gender-confused models.

And that's the thing. Slaanesh does like gender confusion. S/he makes that dark nasty part of the Red Light District look like kindergarten. So, yay.

HeroHammer = Fail

Meanwhile, scout bikes: New models, new rules. Quelle surprise!

Lormax wrote:Deamonettes, now with 100% less boobs!

And 100% less rules if you're playing CSM.

BYE

Valhallan42nd wrote:And that's the thing. Slaanesh does like gender confusion. S/he makes that dark nasty part of the Red Light District look like kindergarten. So, yay.

Agreed. But isn't the point to seduce people first and then hit them with the horror of what they really are? The new 'nettes are about as seductive as ... well, plaguebearers. The prior bondage chick version is another story ........

Tribune wrote:HeroHammer = Fail

Meanwhile, scout bikes: New models, new rules. Quelle surprise!

Isn't it clear we've reached critical mass with Space Marine releases? After Drop Pods and Scouts Bikes, what's left? Well... nothing, which is why we have completely new units (Redeemer, Thunderfire, Sternguard/Vanguard Vets, loads of new special characters, Scout Speeders, Iron Breaker Dreads or whatever they're called) pulled out of thin air?

Marines had reached the point where GW couldn't realistically re-do the same thing for the 8 millionth time (recutting the Tactical sprues again would be costly and not worth it). We've got all the new Chaplains and Librarians, all the main units (Tac, Dev, Assault, Termy, Termy Assault, Scouts and Command) are all plastic. Hell, even the Commander is placstic. The Vindicator is plastic. The Whirlwind is plastic. Virtually everything has a model (except the Drop Pod), so the only thing they could do was make up a bunch of new units that will either be retconned into the fluff or be 'recent discoveries of ancient technology'.

The only real clever release is the recut Land Speeder. Historically that thing has been a nightmare to construct, so recutting that makes sense (especially when you include plastic bits to make all the different types). But I expect this will happen to all armies eventually. Once you've re-released everything for the the 3rd or 4th time, you really can't do it a 5th time without looking like you're releasing the same model, but with a new hat. You have to just invent new stuff to add to the old stuff, to avoid going over the same ground and to make people buy new models.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:And 100% less rules if you're playing CSM.

That pendulum is swung the other way when you play deamons, so par for the course?

That's what they have the soporific musk for, friend.

Either which, I like the new models. I just wish I liked their rules a bit more. I'd still like to see an non-ez-cheez plaguebearer.

We should also stop derailing this thread as well.

Lormax wrote:That pendulum is swung the other way when you play deamons, so par for the course?

No one ever 'played daemons' before they forced us to. Remember that.

You want more on this, ask Janthkin. He probably has a bigger daemon collection than I do and felt the impact of 'Generic Daemons' even more than the rest of us.

BYE

Valhallan42nd wrote:We should also stop derailing this thread as well.

It's a thread about fancy Spase Mareins (HURR!) getting fancy new space toys (double HURR!). What else is there to do except bitch endlessly about either it, or how Chaos Marines have been shafted once again?

BYE

Lormax wrote:

His Master's Voice wrote:You get to mess with Daemonettes.

They got nerfed recently too

<gw>Deamonettes, now with 100% less boobs!</gw>

I never said it's enjoyable. Unless we're talking about MY Daemonettes. Scarlet Johannson hits Jessica Alba driving a truck full of sharp objects. Miraculously there's no blood...

Marines had reached the point where GW couldn't realistically re-do the same thing for the 8 millionth time (recutting the Tactical sprues again would be costly and not worth it).

AFAIK the next step with Marines is a complete redesign of the basic power armor. Look at Dainton's work to see how Goodwin wants SM to look like. But that's years away...

They need at least another edition with Marines after 5th before they do a complete redesign like the change between 2nd and 3rd.

The next line due for a complete redesign (ignoring Dark Eldar) would probably be Necrons. The only alternative is to give them loads of new options and squad upgrades (something that seems to be an anathema to Jervis) and recut the sprue.

Guard can be done over and over again (just make a new plastic kit - they're all the same anyway). They need Orks for another edition or so before they get a redesign. Eldar are probably good for another edition, but they still have things that could be redone (Wraithguard, Warp Spiders, Jetbikes, Shining Spears, etc.) so don't expect Eldar 3.0 before 7th or so Edition. Tyranids won't get one for a LONG while.

BYE

Well, according to Jes, the only line that needs redesigning are SM because their models don't match the fluff description. Take an average SM model and compare it to an average SM illustration and you'll see. All lines go through design evolution but SM are set for a revolution. But since revolutions (especially milk cow revolutions) are risky GW won't be rushing this one...

do any other Ork players want the Drop pod released so that they can loot it for part?

H.B.M.C. wrote:No one ever 'played daemons' before they forced us to. Remember that.

You want more on this, ask Janthkin. He probably has a bigger daemon collection than I do and felt the impact of 'Generic Daemons' even more than the rest of us.

I'm sure that Squat players, LatD players, Dogs of War players really feel sorry for that...

I modelled a number of triple las tanks for my BA army. They started sucking ass in 4th and are awful in 5th. My tanks have new weapons now. I modelled a number of death company with power weapons and power fists. What a waste now. I painted Rapier Laser Destroyers back from 2nd edition. Whoops. I used to run an allied Callidus Assassin (only her, I don't have an Inquisitor or his retinue). She's shelved. I bought or traded for 9 Land Speeders, then ordered the assault cannon bits from GW. They suck now. I collected a good 6-8 Rhino's for 3rd edition. Then the Rhino Rush nerf hit. I painted up 4 plasma cannons for my Dev's in 3rd. Shelved through 4th. I modelled a number of assault marines with plasma pistols for 4th, then the BA PDF codex hit. Waste of points. I bought the OLD Razorback that had a lascannon and twin linked plasma guns on the turret, painted it up and everything. That hasn't been able to be used for how long now?

I'm sure you get my point, I don't feel sorry. Adjust with the changes to the game.

H.B.M.C. wrote:he only real clever release is the recut Land Speeder. Historically that thing has been a nightmare to construct, so recutting that makes sense (especially when you include plastic bits to make all the different types). But I expect this will happen to all armies eventually. Once you've re-released everything for the the 3rd or 4th time, you really can't do it a 5th time without looking like you're releasing the same model, but with a new hat. You have to just invent new stuff to add to the old stuff, to avoid going over the same ground and to make people buy new models.

Quoted for truth. I think this is going to be the nice thing about the Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer box - can make 3 different LRs from one box! Get some magnets and a few extra bits and you've got yourself a convertible Land Raider.

Valhallan42nd wrote:I like BoLS, because it allows me to keep up with rumors w/o going through 10 pages of neck-beard nerd rage (see above).

I agree. Tho I am less than thrilled about the lame banner ads. Especially the one that displays gak about Scientology.

"So what exactly are the benefits for turning traitor again? I can't remember."

Lash, Obliterators, ridiculously good Troop choices that are also fearless.

Seriously, even if these rumors are true, how does it render Chaos Space Marines obsolete? So the Marines are getting some new toys. Maybe they'll catch up to CSM. Passing them would need more toys than the rumors have them, or an Ork style ridiculous point advantage.

oni wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:I like BoLS, because it allows me to keep up with rumors w/o going through 10 pages of neck-beard nerd rage (see above).

I agree. Tho I am less than thrilled about the lame banner ads. Especially the one that displays gak about Scientology.

Heh heh, yeah....banner ads....

This forum could benefit from a roundup sticky of whatever the current subject is (like Seer does). Would save people from skipping over the angst to find the info.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

oni wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:I like BoLS, because it allows me to keep up with rumors w/o going through 10 pages of neck-beard nerd rage (see above).

I agree. Tho I am less than thrilled about the lame banner ads. Especially the one that displays gak about Scientology.

Heh heh, yeah....banner ads....

This forum could benefit from a roundup sticky of whatever the current subject is (like Seer does). Would save people from skipping over the angst to find the info.

Skipping the angst?

Here, where getting all apoplectic at the mere mention of Space Marines?

Please!

Dakka should probably start issuing warnings every time someone says "Spase Marienz!!~!11!! Hurrr!!1!@~!!".

Well, every time someone says it and means it…

Or something.

His Master's Voice wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:So what exactly are the benefits for turning traitor again? I can't remember.

You get to mess with Daemonettes.

Or Plaguebearers, depending on what you prefer.

I think you mean "Lesser Daemons".

H.B.M.C. wrote:Isn't it clear we've reached critical mass with Space Marine releases? After Drop Pods and Scouts Bikes, what's left? Well... nothing, which is why we have completely new units (Redeemer, Thunderfire, Sternguard/Vanguard Vets, loads of new special characters, Scout Speeders, Iron Breaker Dreads or whatever they're called) pulled out of thin air?

Well, they could have gone the CSM route and started eliminating stuff instead.

40kenthusiast wrote:"So what exactly are the benefits for turning traitor again? I can't remember."

Lash, Obliterators, ridiculously good Troop choices that are also fearless.

And what if you're undivided? Or do Word Bearers all of a sudden have Slaanesh princes and Thousand Sons in their legion?

Scout rules sound about right. GW were not selling very many scout models after moving them to the elite section. Quick fix, make them ubber and they will start to sell again.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Isn't it clear we've reached critical mass with Space Marine releases? <snip>

I'll say. Bring on the plastic aspect warriors! And plastic sisters!

Lormax wrote:


I'm sure you get my point, I don't feel sorry. Adjust with the changes to the game.

I'd be fine with that if all those changes didn't end up costing a lot of money. Or ripping the soul out of a certain army. I say keep yelling because if we yell enough GW might listen. I know it's a long shot, but it's possible. Heck, GW is actually doing timely FAQ's now and asking people to send them more questions.

40kenthusiast wrote:"So what exactly are the benefits for turning traitor again? I can't remember."

Lash, Obliterators, ridiculously good Troop choices that are also fearless.

Lash is good, but cheesy in the extreme. I personally don't like using it because it's so powerful.

Obliterators are good, but even they get wiped out by focused fire. Everyone at my store know how good they are and always shoot at them first. I had quite a few games were my Obliterators died before doing anything meaningful because I failed my cover save, invul save, etc. Then again, I only have 5 so maybe I need to take more.

As for the cult troops: Plague marines are great, but expensive.

Khornze Bezerkers are ok. They're not great unless they get into CC, which doesn't always happen. Because who the heck wants to fight them?

Noise Marines I have no experience with until I get more sonic weapons.

And Thousand Sons, are good, but got nerfed by the new cover rules. Now that most things have a 4+ save, that ap3 isn't so good anymore. And again, they're expensive, and absolutely crap in CC.

I'm thinking my Black Legion my turn into Black Spikey Loyalists at this point. Or I'll just focus on collecting cool models, because these new rules are sick.

Thats the problem though. GW HAD a way to continue to give players what they wanted all the while continuing to keep the SM's relevent. It WAS called, CHAPTERS.

We get the distinct pleasure of Slannish giving it to us, then coming behind it with it's nerf claw, cutting off the SM and throwing them on the floorhammer.
Now that the game goes large scale, we LOSE chapters and get the red, green, and blue ones.

Takes it a step backwards in such a way as to leave people scratching thier head asking what the last ten years were for.

I for one don't mind new, interesting and revamping it if it didn't work in the first place, but to rehash the same time and time again and then pull cheese out of your fourth point of contact and act like its exciting really drives it home how generic the poor dumb space marines are really becoming.


I do like the range, there is a distinct fell, a little more detail, and a good range of them, but damn, is it asking too much for a supposedlyu new and improved version of a game to come up with established standards coming out of the gate, instead of playing one upsmanship and nerfing itself out of existance?

Space marines are pretty much a standard, now how about lets look past the color and give up some goods as to WHY ELSE I should pick them, except on basis of color.

CHAPTERS, the other white meat.

Hellfury wrote:In short, it works exactly like a teleport homer, which is what it is.

There is one other possibility in that it could work as a Teleport Homer that lets you DS off of it the turn the Scouts come in from a board edge.

The current Teleport Homer rules don't allow that. However, that is only spelled out in the wargear section as their is nothing in the 5th Ed rules that prohibits DS off of a Teleport Homer (or an Icon for that matter). 5th Ed allows you to make reserve rolls and then move on reserves in any order you want. If they lifted the wargear restriction then you could move the Scouts on and Teleport your Termies off of them.

However, if they did that and didn't FAQ Ravenwing and their Teleport Homers, I would be a bit

If you haven't won nearly every game you've played with the current Chaos Space Marines Codex, you have to be terrible at this game.

Besides, Chaos Legions will be coming before you know it; mark my words.

brassangel wrote:If you haven't won nearly every game you've played with the current Chaos Space Marines Codex, you have to be terrible at this game.

Who said anything about losing all the time? I'm just saying that the CSM codex ain't that great compared to all the amazing new stuff SM's get.

Besides, Chaos Legions will be coming before you know it; mark my words.

Yeah, another opportunity to totally screw the pooch. Then again, they might be good. Who knows? Until we actually see the new stuff, which could be a long time from now, no one can say. In the meantime the current codex leaves me feeling ... bored.

brassangel wrote:If you haven't won nearly every game you've played with the current Chaos Space Marines Codex, you have to be terrible at this game.

Besides, Chaos Legions will be coming before you know it; mark my words.

As long as you take some pretty specific stuff. Yeah thats true, the chaos codex can be tough. However, the old codex made a strong or at the very least competitive list using any of the options and Uber list if you just stuck with the broken gak. Truthfully it was hard to make a poor list under the old codex. Unless you were trying to play T-sons. Then well, it was business as usual in the screw over T-sons camp.

Noisy_Marine wrote:

brassangel wrote:If you haven't won nearly every game you've played with the current Chaos Space Marines Codex, you have to be terrible at this game.

Who said anything about losing all the time? I'm just saying that the CSM codex ain't that great compared to all the amazing new stuff SM's get.

Besides, Chaos Legions will be coming before you know it; mark my words.

Yeah, another opportunity to totally screw the pooch. Then again, they might be good. Who knows? Until we actually see the new stuff, which could be a long time from now, no one can say. In the meantime the current codex leaves me feeling ... bored.

*Starts to type a reply than stares at your avatar*

*Starts to type again than stares at your avatar*

*Starts to....aww screw it, what's the story on your avatar?

Noisy_Marine wrote:I'm thinking my Black Legion my turn into Black Spikey Loyalists at this point.

I'm sure you've got more self-respect than going down that road, Noisy! I agree with your takes on the "Obviously Good" things people point out in the CSM book, including 1k Sons ultimately still being crap and Lash being so powerful I won't run it. The one thing that continually gets stuck in my craw though is chaos dread vs loyalist dreads - WS 5 BS 5 reroll damage venerables, AV13 siegers ... If chaos dreads are stuck with no mutated hull at least let them have the old Crazed table where blood rage meant 2x attaks and fire frenzy doubled at the enemy first! FFS!

brassangel wrote:If you haven't won nearly every game you've played with the current Chaos Space Marines Codex, you have to be terrible at this game.

Like Noisy said, the point isn't us wanting an AUTOWIN army, it's wanting any kind of depth and mutability in an army we love. And it's freaking called CHAOS, of all the codexes to steamroll flat

AgeOfEgos wrote:*Starts to....aww screw it, what's the story on your avatar?

German Games Day Chicks, Natürlich

- Salvage

Valhallan42nd wrote:I like BoLS, because it allows me to keep up with rumors w/o going through 10 pages of neck-beard nerd rage (see above).

QFT!
____

oni wrote:
I agree. Tho I am less than thrilled about the lame banner ads. Especially the one that displays gak about Scientology.

"banner ads"?

I use Firefox with Adblock Plus, so I am not familiar with this phrase.

Liber Chaos wrote:But the new Daemonettes aren't even hot any more, unless you like the current gender-confused models.

For the purported target audience of newly-pubescent boys, isn't that about right?

Also, wouldn't that be appropriate for the other stereotypical GW gamer - basement loner who's into she-male pr0n.

Lormax wrote:I'm sure that Squat players, LatD players, Dogs of War players really feel sorry for that...

I'm sure you get my point, I don't feel sorry. Adjust with the changes to the game.

*raises hand as a Dogs of War player*

I don't feel sorry at all.

Unless I get an Army Book that's stupidly good.

Then I'll feel vindicated.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Also, wouldn't that be appropriate for the other stereotypical GW gamer - basement loner who's into she-male pr0n.

What the hell kind'a people are you hangin' out with Jonny-boy if you consider that a stereotype?

BYE

Boss_Salvage wrote:Like Noisy said, the point isn't us wanting an AUTOWIN army, it's wanting any kind of depth and mutability in an army we love. And it's freaking called CHAOS, of all the codexes to steamroll flat

Exactly. I have won enough games with the new codex but it is simply bland in comparison to the old one. I don't do tournaments and I don't power game (never run 2X Lash Princes and don't plan to). I selected Chaos as my first army because of the character and variety of play styles you could create, not to win every game. Even some of my regular opponents have now asked me to start using my old codex because it is more interesting for them to play against than the current one.

Now, I don't begrudge any army their shiny new toys. It keeps things interesting. However, it is a little troubling to see my codex rendered generic and the new models like Possessed and Spawn (which are pretty cool looking) given iffy rules, and compare that to the new SM toys and rules. I can also understand how some of the other SM chapter players (e.g., DA, BT) feel and sympathize with them -- even if they are loyalist scum

Codex Legions? I'll believe it when I see it and don't expect that for a long time since other armies are in dire need of a new codex. I am also not convinced this was part of GW's original plan. I suspect it was more of an after-the-fact, CYA move when faced with some of the backlash from removing the legion rules in the first place. Anyway, rant over. Carry on.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:I like BoLS, because it allows me to keep up with rumors w/o going through 10 pages of neck-beard nerd rage (see above).

QFT!
____

Seconded.

They could have saved a ton of money on printing the new SM codex by just having it be 1 page with 1 special rule: Marines Win.

Honestly... I know the SM are GW's "pet" army, but up till now they haven't truely shown favoritsm. This codex is just a big "screw you" to every non-marine army out there. They really should change the tag line of the game to "40k- the game of Marines. We only wrote other armies to give our marines something different to slaughter every week."

I'm 95% done painting my Demon army, might as well put them on the shelf.. the fact that NO demon can assault after Deep Striking but a Damn Marine can? (It MIGHT be bearable if Vanguard vets are 0-1 but they'd never put a LIMITATION on their favorite army, would they?) Sorry, but that was the nail in the coffin.

Beast of Nurgle wrote:They could have saved a ton of money on printing the new SM codex by just having it be 1 page with 1 special rule: Marines Win.

Honestly... I know the SM are GW's "pet" army, but up till now they haven't truely shown favoritsm. This codex is just a big "screw you" to every non-marine army out there. They really should change the tag line of the game to "40k- the game of Marines. We only wrote other armies to give our marines something different to slaughter every week."

I'm 95% done painting my Demon army, might as well put them on the shelf.. the fact that NO demon can assault after Deep Striking but a Damn Marine can? (It MIGHT be bearable if Vanguard vets are 0-1 but they'd never put a LIMITATION on their favorite army, would they?) Sorry, but that was the nail in the coffin.

Welcome to the real 40k, Beast. And they have been shown favoritism in the past. Iron Warriors and Rhino-rushing Blood Angels were both space marines.

Beast of Nurgle wrote:They could have saved a ton of money on printing the new SM codex by just having it be 1 page with 1 special rule: Marines Win.

Honestly... I know the SM are GW's "pet" army, but up till now they haven't truely shown favoritsm. This codex is just a big "screw you" to every non-marine army out there. They really should change the tag line of the game to "40k- the game of Marines. We only wrote other armies to give our marines something different to slaughter every week."

I'm 95% done painting my Demon army, might as well put them on the shelf.. the fact that NO demon can assault after Deep Striking but a Damn Marine can? (It MIGHT be bearable if Vanguard vets are 0-1 but they'd never put a LIMITATION on their favorite army, would they?) Sorry, but that was the nail in the coffin.

Valhallan42nd wrote:I was just as upset about the proposed changes as anyone else.

And then I sat and thought about it. Most of changes are to things that would not affact my list building. I don't use high-end high-costed killie squads, I don't think I'd ever deep strike a unit close enough to probably scatter into them and die, esspecailly a high costed unit, etc. Most of these added units will just appear in high pointed apoc style games, and most of the better armies will focus on making balanced tight lists with proper support.

From another thread, but it bears repeating here. My advice would be patience when we don't even know how much all of this stuff costs. Epidimus with a solid mono-nurgle list or Bloodcrushers with Kiaros Fateweaver are just as bad as anything proposed here, if not worse.

Exactly!

How many Marine armies (4th edition) were actually 'top tier'?

smiling Assassin wrote:Ahh.

If this ever gets to 6th Ed., the LEAST GW could do (for the poor, weedy, undernourished, un-loved SM Players with obviously a MASSIVE disadvantage to EVERY other army) would be to inpose some kind of Power for Commanders...

Exterminatus - 60 Pts.

- On a 4+ (OOH RISKY) destroy every single fricking enemy unit.

Dude.
Don't be an ass. That's just ridiculous.

To be balanced, it would have to be about 100 points and then only on a 5+... and they have to roll PER UNIT, of course.

Eric

Noisy_Marine wrote:So what exactly are the benefits for turning traitor again? I can't remember.

Horned helmets, spiky bits, cool looking tentacles and pustules.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:So what exactly are the benefits for turning traitor again? I can't remember.

Horned helmets, spiky bits, cool looking tentacles and pustules.

And really, it's the pustules that make all the girls go weak in the knees...

MagickalMemories wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:So what exactly are the benefits for turning traitor again? I can't remember.

Horned helmets, spiky bits, cool looking tentacles and pustules.

Eric

That reminds me of when I was drunk in Tokyo...

The more I look and hear the more depressed I am about the new changes. GW are getting more and more blatant, it was unsubtle enough when they made the Reaver titan 500pts underpriced (at a minimum) to try and sell models. This is far worse.

Teh new Spase Marienz Codex is designed to give Games Workshop a 3+ save against Hasbro, however profit warning reports are Ap2.

MagickalMemories wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:So what exactly are the benefits for turning traitor again? I can't remember.

Horned helmets, spiky bits, cool looking tentacles and pustules.

Eric

The perk used to be hooking up with daemonettes, but they even found a way to screw that up.

Beast of Nurgle wrote:I'm 95% done painting my Demon army, might as well put them on the shelf.. the fact that NO demon can assault after Deep Striking but a Damn Marine can?

That's because daemons are daemonic, not heroic, and thus can't use Heroic Intervention. Everybody knows you need to be a hero to assault after Deep Striking - duh! Silly daemon, rules exceptions are for marines!

Valhallan42nd wrote:My advice would be patience when we don't even know how much all of this stuff costs.

I don't care if they cost 300 pts each. What possible reason could there be to allow Vanguard Vets to assault after Deep Strike? I really want to get ahold of the new marine dex just to see what kind of bullsh!t fluff gymnastics they pull to justify this little gem.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:That's because daemons are daemonic, not heroic, and thus can't use Heroic Intervention. Everybody knows you need to be a hero to assault after Deep Striking - duh! Silly daemon, rules exceptions are for marines!

Does this make Lesser Daemons the unsung heroes of 40k, or does their use of "Daemonic Summoning" as opposed to Deep Strike per se strip them of the honorific?

I am also looking forward to reading the new fluff . . .

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I don't care if they cost 300 pts each. What possible reason could there be to allow Vanguard Vets to assault after Deep Strike? I really want to get ahold of the new marine dex just to see what kind of bullsh!t fluff gymnastics they pull to justify this little gem.

<sputters> What? Being heroic and intervening isn't enough? Jeez! Just what kind of explanation do you need?

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
I don't care if they cost 300 pts each. What possible reason could there be to allow Vanguard Vets to assault after Deep Strike? I really want to get ahold of the new marine dex just to see what kind of bullsh!t fluff gymnastics they pull to justify this little gem.

Actually they should be able to assault and deep strike, as they are elite of the elite troops. However that should be with an expensive upgrade, which is also available to CSM Raptors, which is mirrored by an exarch ability to leap from a transport into assault. Daemons should not be able to normally deepstrike and assault, but a special sorceror or daemon psyker power could 'hex' a target so that daemons can deeptrike into combat with it. These rules would make sense. SM vets and Raptors making 'breakneck' combat drops, Howling Banshees/Striking Scorpions being acrobatic and leaping from Wave serpents. The idea of cursing an enemy so that daemons materialise right next to him to carry him off to the warp also fits. Heck, I should be writing the rules.

Everyone else should deep strike and assault the slow way.

Orlanth wrote:Actually they should be able to assault and deep strike, as they are elite of the elite troops. However that should be with an expensive upgrade, which is also available to CSM Raptors, which is mirrored by an exarch ability to leap from a transport into assault.

Well, it's not.

Orlanth wrote:
Actually they should be able to assault and deep strike, as they are elite of the elite troops. However that should be with an expensive upgrade, which is also available to CSM Raptors, which is mirrored by an exarch ability to leap from a transport into assault. Daemons should not be able to normally deepstrike and assault, but a special sorceror or daemon psyker power could 'hex' a target so that daemons can deeptrike into combat with it. These rules would make sense. SM vets and Raptors making 'breakneck' combat drops, Howling Banshees/Striking Scorpions being acrobatic and leaping from Wave serpents. The idea of cursing an enemy so that daemons materialise right next to him to carry him off to the warp also fits. Heck, I should be writing the rules.

Everyone else should deep strike and assault the slow way.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing more units have the ability. I think the Vets do pay for the ability though...it was said before they were around 30 pts/each. Pretty pricey for assault marine stat lines. Of course, they have more options than assault marines...but again that's even more points too. I don't think the vets will be that common (Perhaps Kantor armies?).

Space Marine Librarians can use two psykic powers in a turn and it's a massive deal, regardless of the fact Eldar, Demons, Inquisition and others already do it.

Space Marines led by a special character can assault a possible 24" a turn, and it's a massive deal, regardless of the fact Tyranids already do it.

Space Marines have a unit that can assault after Deep Strike and it's a massive deal, regardless of the fact Orks and Chaos already do it.

I'm sensing a pattern...

I think it's a big deal because it takes what was unique and cool from those armies and gives it to marines. If marines get all the special bits from everyone else, then everyone else is going to be annoyed.

Legoburner, is there a way we can set up some sort of mechanism to collect a nickel for all the mods each time someone panics about a new Codex?

(Should have done this YEARS ago).

When I regularly get tabled by n00bs using the new Space Marine Codex, I'll gripe. Until then, I just can't find the energy to be upset about it.

I, for one, am not upset about this at all. I still despise the need for special characters (why can't someone just have the Sallie special rules without needing that Sallie guy to lead them?), but I think this Codex sounds fantastic.

The only thing I'm upset about is how Chaos got totally bonned by a bunch of unimaginative feth ups when Loyalists get all the fancy new toys.

As I said, it sucks to be a traitor... but my Ultramarines couldn't be happier!!!

BYE

I bought a Space Wolves army off a friend I had planned to turn into more Chaos but now I think Ill hold on. This Codex sounds great and if there is just enough momentum it might carry on into a Space Wolves codex of equal worth

Yeah I dont see what the hub bub is about regarding the sky is falling.

There are some really good toys, and a couple items I think is a little on the overpowered side.

But in general, I would say that this codex is toned down alot from what we saw in 4th ed. no more termie command squads, no more 2 heavys in 5 man termies, forced to take 10 tacs just to get any option other than bolters, etc.

The problem isnt beeing tabled by noobs, if you know half a thing about playing you will be able to just manhandle them(as by pure definition they are noobs and thus dont know the game).

The problem is medium to experienced players against whom you will be fighting in an upphill battle and usually loose unless you can roll unstatistically good.

Also, the guys stating the "people always whine about new codexes" arent really on spot. Much(some are just made by trolls tho) of that whine have usually been made with valid points, everyone can see what is obviously broken by just a glance. Lash for example or the orc codex(before 5th ed) overall and we all know those were right, actually we all knew that from the beginning.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I, for one, am not upset about this at all. I still despise the need for special characters (why can't someone just have the Sallie special rules without needing that Sallie guy to lead them?), but I think this Codex sounds fantastic.

The only thing I'm upset about is how Chaos got totally bonned by a bunch of unimaginative feth ups when Loyalists get all the fancy new toys.

As I said, it sucks to be a traitor... but my Ultramarines couldn't be happier!!!

BYE

I think that was really a response to the flexibility/potential for abuse of the prior Chaos codex, unfortunately.

Kallbrand wrote:
Also, the guys stating the "people always whine about new codexes" arent really on spot. Much(some are just made by trolls tho) of that whine have usually been made with valid points, everyone can see what is obviously broken by just a glance. Lash for example or the orc codex(before 5th ed) overall and we all know those were right, actually we all knew that from the beginning.

People are misinterpreting sarcasm for whining. It's not "Damn GW marines are overpowered!" It's "Ah, GW, there it goes with those marines again."

I agree with allot of these new posts. Everyone is talking about Chaos and also Eldar and orks. What people don't realise Tau is now no longer able to viable in tournements. Tau can win when I can focus and destroy one space marine unit at a time. Now with these new abilities I will have 4 to five units of marines on me by turn two. And if the rumors are right and giving all marines 2 attacks because all have bolt and combat weapon. Thats 30 attacks against tau on assault. and I get int 2, str 3, T 3. Wow... I am dead. I have played tau sense the time they came out. I built a marine killing army designed that most marine army could only get 2 to 1 units a turn close enough to assault. I could deal with that with vespid and many Tau Warriors. The problem is this.. In fith addition with all the new mission in tournements dealing with taking objectives. Makes tau have to move to there death. I understand Chaos Player, Eldar and all worried, I am just saddened. I see Drop pods with assaulting marines, Fleet moving Assault marines. Infiltrating Fleet units (Shriek). Tau is Dead.. untill we get a new book in like I don't know a year maybe 2.


Sorry, I am not whinning. I am just making a point. Space Marines were designed to be balanced against the Demons.

How the armies will deal with this new Marines:

Eldar = Can move and handle this new rules. Player have to become creative
Ork = Da horde they have the toughness and numbers to deal
Nids = Speed and number, out assault them
Dark Eldar = Numbers, assault the marines do not allow the marines to assault
Necon = Shoot and move. Viel of darkeness to a area and kill the marines. Then move and do it again. Use moniliths to bounce around and keep the Marines guessing
Imperial Guard = I have seen this done. Tank, Flame Tank, Flame thrower and vet squads with Plasma guns. Use there armor and barrage and template them to death
Space Marines = Fight cheese with cheese.
Chaos Marines = Feel no Pain t 5, out assault them.

Tau = No barrage weapons except a tank with canister or a Ion gun, but not barrage. won't help - Crisses Suits to few in a squad and expensive and no inv saves unless you removes weapons but you need that, Fire warriors- to static and have no chance in hand to hand and with units deep striking into assault there is nothing to shoot. Vespid, can kill marines but are to weak to really take any fire and also can't fight and loved to be flamed or assaulted by drop pods. Broadsides... awsome but can only kill one or two a turn to easy to be assaulted. Getting a feel for this army... Kroot, to week and no power weapons to be helpfull in hand to hand. They will kill a couple but to darn squishy in hand to hand, Marines will kill more and then beat them in hand to hand.

Assault in this new look in the marines will be fun against chaos but broken against the tau.

Valhallan42nd wrote:I think that was really a response to the flexibility/potential for abuse of the prior Chaos codex, unfortunately.

Done in the typcal ham-fisted, pendulum, overbalancing method that GW is famous for, and now Chaos players have to suffer for another 6 years while Marines get a really, really cool Codex.

BYE

Aduro wrote:Space Marine Librarians can use two psykic powers in a turn and it's a massive deal, regardless of the fact Eldar, Demons, Inquisition and others already do it.

Space Marines led by a special character can assault a possible 24" a turn, and it's a massive deal, regardless of the fact Tyranids already do it.

Space Marines have a unit that can assault after Deep Strike and it's a massive deal, regardless of the fact Orks and Chaos already do it.

I'm sensing a pattern...

... I'm not sure generic demons are on the same playing field as a bunch of veterans with power weapons and 3+ armor saves.

I sure wish my Khorne Berzerkers could charge a potential of 24" in a turn (and get infiltrate! Boy, people would go berserk if that happened). Which Tyranid unit are you thinking of? Do they infiltrate too?

I always thought that Thousand Sons were supposed to have the best sorcerors in the universe (maybe after Eldar). Silly me!

New name for SMs: UltraSwissarmyknifemarines - they do everything!

as people note though, we'll all get over it eventually. I do wish, as H.B.M.C. that the focus was not on special characters - that's annoying.

Sorry had to edit my last post . and I agree with Antonin

In terms of DS and Assault, I kind of think all Jump troops should be able to assault after DS, considering they are flying to the spot, not teleporting or hopping out of a pod. I figure that would give them better ability to steer and hit the enemy.
I would say they should take a dangerous terrain test though to do it.

Generally though, I am still not too worried about the contents of the codex. I am jealous that Marines get so many different options and units, but at the same time I don't expect to see very many in any given army outside of giant games. I would prefer that all codex's have a huge number of different units and options instead of all being equally stripped down.

Here's that annoying pattern in full:-

Rulebook Edition n
'No one is able to do x cool thing that used to be possible, but now we got rid of it to improve the game balance'

Codex A
'Apart from these guys, who get it because of their super duper specialness'

Codex B
'And these guys'

Codex C
'And err these guys'

Rulebook Edition n+1
'Right then! To make sure there's better game mechanics and balance, we've done away with the ability to do x'

New Codex A
'Apart from these guys...'

Now there's your pattern, Aduro

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:I think that was really a response to the flexibility/potential for abuse of the prior Chaos codex, unfortunately.

Done in the typcal ham-fisted, pendulum, overbalancing method that GW is famous for, and now Chaos players have to suffer for another 6 years while Marines get a really, really cool Codex.

BYE

Amen to that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:We should also stop derailing this thread as well.

It's a thread about fancy Spase Mareins (HURR!) getting fancy new space toys (double HURR!). What else is there to do except bitch endlessly about either it, or how Chaos Marines have been shafted once again?

BYE

You know for some reason I see the anti marine people saying this waaaaaay more than the actual marine people. I think the marine players have said it like four times in this thread and the anti marine players are well into the double digits...

Edited out the flame- Marcus

Very constructive.

Astalado wrote:What people don't realise Tau is now no longer able to viable in tournements.

Eldar = Can move and handle this new rules. Player have to become creative

Tau = Can take Kroot and use Devilfish to move. Player have to become creative

Ratbarf wrote:So shut the feth up and stop saying it if you don't want to hear it you whining chaos space marines who lost all your cheese!

You're a classy guy.

BYE

just my 2 cents in,

unless you have seen the codex you can't really say much, unless you want to pointlessly argue about silly rumors go ahead, there is a 1% chance IT MIGHT HAPPEN!!! if your too worried then just keep saying to yourself, 'there going to be extreamly over priced *rocks back and forth continuosly*'

Cheers,
Gutteridge

Gutteridge wrote:unless you have seen the codex you can't really say much, unless you want to pointlessly argue about silly rumors go ahead, there is a 1% chance IT MIGHT HAPPEN!!!

I can say with some amount of certainty that the majority of what has been posted is 100% true.

BYE

Kallbrand wrote:The problem isnt beeing tabled by noobs, if you know half a thing about playing you will be able to just manhandle them(as by pure definition they are noobs and thus dont know the game).

The problem is medium to experienced players against whom you will be fighting in an upphill battle and usually loose unless you can roll unstatistically good.

No, the problem is Vanguard Veterans (veterans of 100 yrs) having same turn Deep Strike + assault while Raptors (veterans of 10,000 yrs) do not. The problem is Tigurius being equal to or better than Ahriman in the psychic department. The problem is Cassius having a higher Toughness than Typhus. And this has nothing to do with pts costs. It's just all slowed from a background standpoint. 1 on 1 a Night Lords Raptor who's been fighting since the Heresy should be at least the equal of an Ultramarines Vanguard Vet (and of course should cost as much or more).

blood angel wrote:Tough 6 and feel no pain on that chap is pretty haus.

The UMs are getting a lot of nice special characters. I hope it clearly spells it out in the book that these characters are supposed to be for any generic marine army to avoid a lot of pointless 'fluff' arguments.

I'm thinking I'll have to convert an Xavier model for my Salamanders afterall- hellooooo toughness 6 chaplain

Valhallan42nd wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I, for one, am not upset about this at all. I still despise the need for special characters (why can't someone just have the Sallie special rules without needing that Sallie guy to lead them?), but I think this Codex sounds fantastic.

The only thing I'm upset about is how Chaos got totally bonned by a bunch of unimaginative feth ups when Loyalists get all the fancy new toys.

As I said, it sucks to be a traitor... but my Ultramarines couldn't be happier!!!

BYE

I think that was really a response to the flexibility/potential for abuse of the prior Chaos codex, unfortunately.

I completely agree with you and that's the problem. GW's Codexes are reactionary, they're emotional responses to the feelings of over/underpoweredness associated with codex they are replacing. A wargaming rulebook has to be written with an analytical mindset, not emotionally. This "we better make this army more powerful since it was underpowered before" BS only makes the entire game unbalanced. But the "nerf that rule/army- it was too powerful before" mindset is equally stupid. Simply put- GW serves no one by writing reactionary rules instead of balanced rules.

Except, of course, when a rule/army *is* too powerful...

For example, why didn't C: Daemons get Lash as worded in C: CSM? Why did Rending get toned down? Perhaps because they were too powerful as-is and as-used?

I am surprised that those marines aren't getting something along the lines of the rumoured "platoon drill" that the Imperial Guard might be getting next year. I mean, regular guys can go *pew! pew!* and shoot through their own ranks without a hitch and marines can't, even though they gave up their testicles to become super humans that can do everything better. Well, except for the parts that actually require balls.

Hm, might the new codex be overcompensation for the lack of something like that then?

It's official!

This thread is absolutely played out now!

I heard that Marneus Calgar's Leadership goes to 11.

Spase Marinez Haterz, Hurr!!1!!!`!

JohnHwangDD wrote:Except, of course, when a rule/army *is* too powerful...

For example, why didn't C: Daemons get Lash as worded in C: CSM? Why did Rending get toned down? Perhaps because they were too powerful as-is and as-used?

Proving conclusivley that you didn't understand Drake's post at all.

BYE

so with pedro kantor and inspiring presence if a unit of 5 sternguard are within 12' does the unit have 11 basic attacks if charged or 15. if the former how would this work with mixed weapon squads(power weapons/basic, pw/pf/basic). just wondering if the unit gets an additional attack or each model. i would think each model gets the bonus( even though that is really powerful)but the wording (or posting) suggests otherwise

there are already a ridiculous number of marine players. yay for more! ¬.¬

Okay, so here, then.

Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Chaos come out, to much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Many players don't like the lists, and at GTs and cons and such the Dev team fields many questions about "OMG WHY DO THESE SUK NOW." Clearly the path they were going down (while, in my opinion, not a bad one to tread) was not well-received.

So, for the new Space Marine codex, they rework a lot of stuff. People then scream about how it's not fair and Chaos got shafted or whatever.

Is GW not allowed to fix its mistakes?

Isn't this more or less exactly what you said you wanted? Would you honestly prefer that everyone else got stuck with the same (in others' opinions, not mine) cruddy, boring, flavorless rules you have, instead of interesting and dynamic options? Or is the average dakkaite so fueled by schadenfreude that everyone else has to be just as miserable as they are? This is completely ignoring the fact that we have no idea how much any of these options are going to cost.

Fixing the mistake would be to re-release a revised DA, BA, and Chaos codex. Not leave them vastly inferior for the next four years.

People want balance. GW wants sales. This is why we bitch about an overpowered codex and GW smiles as a new legion of 12 year olds beg momma for the shiny blue box.

GW might still be able to 'fix' the BA and DA via FAQ.

GW claims that we'll get Chaos Traitor Legion codices for the "Big 4" 'eventually' (if you believe Jervis and JohnHwangDD ). So, maybe a 'fix' there, which confirms that the latest CSM codex was really Codex Renegades/Black Legion. Though that still leaves the major Undivided Traitors out in the cold.

The new SM codex clearly looks like a minor (or major?) repudiation of the "Jervis Philosophy", though we won't know for sure until the next 40K Codex is released.

These Space Marines seem extremely... ahem... flexible. There is a wide variety of potential power lists from Brimstones thread. Some of them won't pan out as well as others and a few of them aren't gleamed yet.

It does appear that the Marines have the ability to field a list that, on paper, can hammer most power lists out there right now, however that marine list would be so specific enough that the marine player would have some trouble against another top list.

I will say this, I don't see any unit in the game that gives you the same bang for your buck as a squad of Thunderhammer/Storm Shield Terminators. Is there anything else in the game that has the survivablity of 2+/3+??? Backed up with the power of Thunderhammers.

I'm gradually forming the opinion that Marines are going the way of the Eldar. They seem to be incredibly flexible when taken as a whole, but (as long as point costs are costed reasonably, i.e. high) people will have smaller armies of specialized squads good at doing a few things well instead of everything [badly].

Now, considering the power of the eldar codex, that's really not a bad thing overall. However, if your Marine army is, say, decked out with the 2handed S6 power weapons and super elite vets geared toward Nidzilla killing, then how are you going to do against the Ork Waaaagh!, or gunline IG, that sort of thing...?

Although I think the new options look to open up some insane power plays, until we get the points costs we don't know if Ultramarines are going to sweep all before them or if it's just overcosted fluff.

At the moment, I'm kind of predicting one pretty good all-comers list, like Double Lash Chaos, and a whole bunch of awesome counter lists that only do well against specific matchups but fail due to high cost and few options in a general sense.

Salvation122 wrote:Is GW not allowed to fix its mistakes?

No one will ever stop them from fixing a mistake. Of course, none of us have seen them fix one yet.

Releasing a new Marine Codex doesn't 'fix' the problems with BA/DA/CSM. The notion of of "we'll do better on the next one - promise" is of little meaning to those who lost thier legions (whereas Marine players get to keep their Chapters, allbethem tied to fething special characters).

BYE

DarthDiggler wrote:I will say this, I don't see any unit in the game that gives you the same bang for your buck as a squad of Thunderhammer/Storm Shield Terminators. Is there anything else in the game that has the survivablity of 2+/3+??? Backed up with the power of Thunderhammers.

Nope. But that doesn't mean that these very same termies are immune to massed power of flashlights either.

The extraordinary save of the storm shield is so that that very same termie squad who has absolutely no range capability, can actually have one or two surviving members to do their job from high powered range weapons.

You have to see it in context as opposed to a vacuum.

TH/SS termies sucked big time in 4th ed. GW is trying to make them usable. This is certainly a step towards doing just that. But as I said earlier, massed amounts of low str firepower make a mockery of the gleaming saves that everyone and their brother is having convulsive kneejerk reactions over.

Stelek wrote:

You must remember the unwashed masses who are lazy is what BOLS is for.

Hey! I'm an unwashed mass!!!

Hellfury wrote:But as I said earlier, massed amounts of low str firepower make a mockery of the gleaming saves that everyone and their brother is having convulsive kneejerk reactions over.

Agreed. This is not a codex change that worries me or screams 'unbalanced'. It's just another piece of design to pull people away from relying on the mathammer of lasplas to kill MEQs, in favour of troop numbers.

Salvation122 wrote:

Is GW not allowed to fix its mistakes?

Isn't this more or less exactly what you said you wanted? Would you honestly prefer that everyone else got stuck with the same (in others' opinions, not mine) cruddy, boring, flavorless rules you have, instead of interesting and dynamic options? Or is the average dakkaite so fueled by schadenfreude that everyone else has to be just as miserable as they are? This is completely ignoring the fact that we have no idea how much any of these options are going to cost.

I am all for interesting and dynamic options. After becoming a victim to GW's streamlining experiment, I'm just not sure I want to wait for years and years for them to get around to giving me those options again.

Fixing a mistake involves admitting you were wrong and going back to correct the problem. Moving forward and telling the people that were directly impacted by the mistake to wait for some unidentified period of time is NOT fixing a mistake.

I don't deny the new CSM 'dex is competitive and can win. The problem is it is BORING. A boring CSM army is a tragedy IMHO.

Alpharius wrote:The new SM codex clearly looks like a minor (or major?) repudiation of the "Jervis Philosophy", though we won't know for sure until the next 40K Codex is released.

Wait for Codex: IG. It may just be that SM are the exception to the rule (as per usual).

Salvation122 wrote:Would you honestly prefer that everyone else got stuck with the same (in others' opinions, not mine) cruddy, boring, flavorless rules you have, instead of interesting and dynamic options?

Yes.

Or is the average dakkaite so fueled by schadenfreude that everyone else has to be just as miserable as they are?

The only thing I like better than winning is watching you lose.

Hellfury wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:I will say this, I don't see any unit in the game that gives you the same bang for your buck as a squad of Thunderhammer/Storm Shield Terminators. Is there anything else in the game that has the survivablity of 2+/3+??? Backed up with the power of Thunderhammers.

Nope. But that doesn't mean that these very same termies are immune to massed power of flashlights either.

The extraordinary save of the storm shield is so that that very same termie squad who has absolutely no range capability, can actually have one or two surviving members to do their job from high powered range weapons.

You have to see it in context as opposed to a vacuum.

TH/SS termies sucked big time in 4th ed. GW is trying to make them usable. This is certainly a step towards doing just that. But as I said earlier, massed amounts of low str firepower make a mockery of the gleaming saves that everyone and their brother is having convulsive kneejerk reactions over.

Exactly!

THAT is the fix I'm still waiting for.

I know I've said it a few times before ( ), but the only time Terminator armor 'felt' right was when it was a 3+ on 2d6 save. You rarely lost one to massed low strength firepower.

I don't know how to 'fix' this using the 1d6 AP system we're apparently going to be stuck with forever.

Easy.

Make all termies FNP and it replicates the old 3+ on 2D6 they had in 2nd ed.

Of course that isnt going to happen, as termies are no longer tough as nails, just an overpriced excuse for a cool looking model.

I could live with T5 W2 Sv2+/5+ termies too for that price. FNP might not be too bad either instead of all that.

stonefox wrote:Iron Warriors and Rhino-rushing Blood Angels were both space marines.

These were both nerfed into oblivion.

Da Boss wrote:I think it's a big deal because it takes what was unique and cool from those armies and gives it to marines. If marines get all the special bits from everyone else, then everyone else is going to be annoyed.

Lemme know when Predators get Holo Fields

Lemme know when Land Raiders get Living Metal, and don't pay extra for ubercool Extra Armor

Lemme know when the new Librarian powers come even CLOSE to the uberness of Lash, or Fortune

Lemme know when Marines can field 8 multi-wound Monstrous Creatures

Lemme know when Devastator squads can move and shoot their heavy weapons

Voodoo_Chile wrote:I bought a Space Wolves army off a friend I had planned to turn into more Chaos but now I think Ill hold on. This Codex sounds great and if there is just enough momentum it might carry on into a Space Wolves codex of equal worth

Rumor has it that Space Wolves will be getting love pretty soon.

Kallbrand wrote:Also, the guys stating the "people always whine about new codexes" arent really on spot. Much(some are just made by trolls tho) of that whine have usually been made with valid points, everyone can see what is obviously broken by just a glance. Lash for example or the orc codex(before 5th ed) overall and we all know those were right, actually we all knew that from the beginning.

You sure about this? How much whining about the Dark Angel codex was there? If anyone here claims that's an overpowered codex now, I've got a bridge I'd love to sell you.

Edit: Sorry about the multi-posts, I was getting caught up on the thread

Lormax wrote:

Kallbrand wrote:Also, the guys stating the "people always whine about new codexes" arent really on spot. Much(some are just made by trolls tho) of that whine have usually been made with valid points, everyone can see what is obviously broken by just a glance. Lash for example or the orc codex(before 5th ed) overall and we all know those were right, actually we all knew that from the beginning.

You sure about this? How much whining about the Dark Angel codex was there? If anyone here claims that's an overpowered codex now, I've got a bridge I'd love to sell you.

You are actually proving his point though.

We knew before the DA codex was released that it was a pile of dreck. There was much whining to be had there, although on the opposite spectrum.
Just like we knew how broken Fzorgle was before it was released..etc.

My last 10 cents... we all talking about the CSM, Eldar, IG, will be okay with this ... What about the Tau....!

Hellfury wrote:Easy.

Make all termies FNP and it replicates the old 3+ on 2D6 they had in 2nd ed.

Of course that isnt going to happen, as termies are no longer tough as nails, just an overpriced excuse for a cool looking model.

That is a good point!

And it makes so much sense that it is sad that it isn't happening...

Yeah, I could live with termies having a limited firing capability in the form of one heavy if termies were tough again.

But 40+ points for a single heavy weapon in a squad? With the way they die now? Give me a break. GW missed its chance yet again to balance terminators out. Giving them two heavies in 10 men is a nice start, but it doesn't address the issue. This is just Jervis being a chaod monkey again.

I only hope that DW apothecaries will be able to utlize the new FNP apothecary rules. DW need that more than anyone.

Though go to the B&C and you will see a huge amount of wailing regarding it being changed. Its really spit regarding how they want it to work. I don't understand. FNP is superior to the old way apothecaries worked because it works in close combat as well. Sure, you don't get an auto save versus high str weaponry, but this make termies survive against everything now.

5th ed is all about high volume firepower, so AP weaponry is rather passe. The FNP apothecary will help termies survive all this attrition.

You could make the old apothecaries work in melee too, you just needed to keep them out of base. Still, I agree with all your other points; terminators are just far to cool for how poor their rules are. Come to think of it... I have way too many cool models that have crap rules... there must be something wrong with me.

FNP on terminators will go a long, long way to making them immune to small arms fire, however, so that is a good start. (Not that they are making that their start.)

AgeOfEgos wrote: I think the Vets do pay for the ability though...it was said before they were around 30 pts/each. Pretty pricey for assault marine stat lines. Of course, they have more options than assault marines...but again that's even more points too. I don't think the vets will be that common (Perhaps Kantor armies?).

If Vanguard Vets are only 30pts, expect to see a lot of them. 30pts seems a lot, but unlike most assault units you dont have to account for casualties on the way in. for example. I buy 30 genestealers to get a dozen of them in combat, and find it worthwhile. If stealers could deepstrike and assault I would only need to buy one brood. Thus the price cound be as high as 40pts and they would still just about break even on potency. 30pts is too damn cheap.

I think hope that the points for a lot of these specialist units are pretty high. I know I don't want to see nothing but Vanguards, Sternguards, Assault termies, with two units of tacs in my games.

What I hope will happen is that if you want to take all these spiffy guys, play Apocalypse where point values don't matter so much. Lots of fun really tough guys in the size of games where these sort of things will show up. Thats where these guys belong. Not in my 1750 pt three hour just for fun games.

Jayden63 wrote:I think hope that the points for a lot of these specialist units are pretty high. I know I don't want to see nothing but Vanguards, Sternguards, Assault termies, with two units of tacs in my games.

What I hope will happen is that if you want to take all these spiffy guys, play Apocalypse where point values don't matter so much. Lots of fun really tough guys in the size of games where these sort of things will show up. Thats where these guys belong. Not in my 1750 pt three hour just for fun games.

Jayden you do realize that assault termies die like flies to concentrated firepower right? Flashlights make a mockery of termies. I know orks arent the best shooty army, but they are definitely better than before.

The other stuff like sternguard and vanguards...meh. Gimmicky crap to sell models with. I am willing to bet my bottom dollar that those two units wont get too much playtime due to cost versus effectiveness.

What I realize is that if you cut out the junk and focus on the strength you can do VERY well with only 5-6 squads of even the high point value stuff.

Don't expect guys who take 3 units of Vanguards to for some reason take 3 HB razor backs just for filler. Focus, focus, focus. Set an army play style and ignore everything that doesn't fit into it. Suddenly you have lots of room for lots of 30 point guys.

Jayden63 wrote:I think hope that the points for a lot of these specialist units are pretty high. I know I don't want to see nothing but Vanguards, Sternguards, Assault termies, with two units of tacs in my games.

What I hope will happen is that if you want to take all these spiffy guys, play Apocalypse where point values don't matter so much. Lots of fun really tough guys in the size of games where these sort of things will show up. Thats where these guys belong. Not in my 1750 pt three hour just for fun games.

And you now, for those 2 tact squads you will have 4 scoring units just there(unless you roll for KP missions, in wich case they will only give away 2). But you will probably wanna have some scouts for vanguard homing also.