B&C rumor round up now includes some pics of GW marketing posters for new C: SM.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=142206

EDIT: Pics of the posters attached

I read most of rumors. I must now go change the shorts.

Good grief.

How can they do Vanguard assault squads. Assaulting after deep strike, wtf?

Machine Spirit – now allows all weapons to be fired if moving 6” or less.

Gotta love how they went from updated FAQ to a brand new rule for the Codex.

Those posters were linked in this thread, though surrounded by a whole lot of Japanese. Same rumors discussed there.

I thought marines were powerful enough. Scout bikes dropping mines, air bursts, ap3 flamers, assaulting after deep strike.... bahhh

The models are actually quite pretty.

I like the Vanguards, Scout Bikes, and the Heroes.

~sA

The cycle of

"New Best Army"

continues at it always has and always will.

My that new ork codex sure sold a few orks!

Now to sell some marines hey lads!

Landraiders aren't selling well! heck, change the rules!

Its sure fun.

Hope I live to see twentieth edition!

Actually its a fairly fun system because it gives the old players reasons to ever renew their armies, and new players get a better deal "than ever" (as they always say!). Their product list is so long they have to get people buying up stuff that has been gathering dust.

I needed reasons to go for marines again! Hurrah!

Can't wait to fight against the new marines.

Shrike + Vanguard = DS, Fleet, & Assault goodness

the points cost on the vanguard should be 30-35 points a model + 15 points for every plasma pistol and power weapon and 20 points for the relic sword
so the squad in the box is 230-250 points for 5 assualt guys. I guess we will have to wait for the uk games day for points.

I have to say I am actually looking forward to seeing this codex come out. In my part of the world, I rarely see Space Marine armies, and they just don't seem to be as powerful as the rest of the lot. When I've faced a Marine army, it's a relief as I actually feel they pose less of a threat than say, Eldar, Orks, or Nids.

From a purely fluff point, Space Marines *should* be rock hard and have all the toys.

I think we'll see significant upgrades in all new 5th ed. codexes. Afterall, the game changed very significantly, and new books are in order that make the armies that have been lackluster in line with the star players like Nids, new Orks, and Eldar.

I'd rather see each new book brought up a notch into the competitive realm, than keep the current status quo and pray that some day, the current dominating codices will get rewritten.

P.S. I'm not a marine player.

Indeed - lots of strong tactics, but lets wait for the point costs!! This is fith edition and things have changed (I wonder how many who yell doom actually have played fith?), I don't care what a single elite unit does if it costs 400+pts and can at best swat one unit a turn after which it's pay back...

What I am really happy about is the fluffiness of the core units system, the new models and art and finally several viable ways to play marines.

nathonicus wrote:I have to say I am actually looking forward to seeing this codex come out. In my part of the world, I rarely see Space Marine armies, and they just don't seem to be as powerful as the rest of the lot. When I've faced a Marine army, it's a relief as I actually feel they pose less of a threat than say, Eldar, Orks, or Nids.

From a purely fluff point, Space Marines *should* be rock hard and have all the toys.

I think we'll see significant upgrades in all new 5th ed. codexes. Afterall, the game changed very significantly, and new books are in order that make the armies that have been lackluster in line with the star players like Nids, new Orks, and Eldar.

I'd rather see each new book brought up a notch into the competitive realm, than keep the current status quo and pray that some day, the current dominating codices will get rewritten.

P.S. I'm not a marine player.

Amen good sir!!! I totally agree.

Just curious - Drop pods - how the hell do you fit 12 in, when it has five doors and two seats behind each??? What am I missing?

migsula wrote:Just curious - Drop pods - how the hell do you fit 12 in, when it has five doors and two seats behind each??? What am I missing?

There are two handholds on the outside for a couple guys to ride on the hull. Yippee-ki-yay!

Roof rack

there's a crow's nest area for the terminator armored IC to join in.. he is stuck in like R2D2 in an X or Y wing..

I bet the Vanguard Veterans are gonna fall over like Chaos Raptors...

So is the new Land Raider kit only the Crusader and Redeemer? Doesn't sound like it has the lascannons in the kit with it.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:How can they do Vanguard assault squads. Assaulting after deep strike, wtf?

With everything in the Space Marine range already out (except for a Drop Pod), the Dev team were faced with a situation which was inevitable, but no less annoying - everything's out. There's nothing new to buy except the Drop Pod. So they made Scout Bikers into plastic and recut the Land Speeder, but that's still not enough. Marines had reached the end of their release cycle - everything is out, mostly in plastic. This is why this Codex is filled to the brim with new units that have never existed before. GW's only path is to invent a bunch of new stuff and give them killer rules so that newbies and vets a like just have to have them.

BYE

To me, there is one distressing fact of this whole thread.

From the first image:

"October 2008 is Space Marines month."


WTF? The Imperium invaded Orktober!
Is NOTHING sacred?


Eric

I'm glad assault Terminators finally get a boost. I did notice only the Vet. Sergent gets a relic blade. I don't think it'll be as bad as people think. I look forward to the new book. -K

stil need to see the points to now isits the best army out if it is nice for mee

erm.. does someone know ~price of this drop pods?

You do realise in order for those guys to assault after Deep Striking they have to land between 1" and 6" away. That's a small margin of error that could easily go wrong and have them landing on the unit they're aiming for and dieing. You'd either want to pair them with Scout Bikers for the Homing Beacon, or Shrike for the Fleet.

Heck, most all of the really cool stuff is either Elites or HQ, meaning you're going to have to pick and choose, which I think is a good thing.

The rule that sounds like it's going to really mess over my marines is the no specials unless you run a full 10 man tac squad. I go from my 2 specials in a 6 man Razorback to only a single special in every other 5 man unit.

MagickalMemories wrote:To me, there is one distressing fact of this whole thread.

From the first image:

"October 2008 is Space Marines month."


WTF? The Imperium invaded Orktober!
Is NOTHING sacred?

Amen man. That's the very first thing I saw, and it's the most disturbing of all the new SM tidbits!

That aside, I'm sorely tempted to pick up a Thunderfire Cannon for it's undeniable conversion power...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:How can they do Vanguard assault squads. Assaulting after deep strike, wtf?

With everything in the Space Marine range already out (except for a Drop Pod), the Dev team were faced with a situation which was inevitable, but no less annoying - everything's out. There's nothing new to buy except the Drop Pod. So they made Scout Bikers into plastic and recut the Land Speeder, but that's still not enough. Marines had reached the end of their release cycle - everything is out, mostly in plastic. This is why this Codex is filled to the brim with new units that have never existed before. GW's only path is to invent a bunch of new stuff and give them killer rules so that newbies and vets a like just have to have them.

BYE

What they should have done with chaos daemons.

There's stuff on those posters that I hadn't seen in the rumors before. Marneus can reroll wounds? Because he wields the Talon of Guilleman? I'm gonna enjoy killing marines even more now.

Teek wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:To me, there is one distressing fact of this whole thread.

From the first image:

"October 2008 is Space Marines month."


WTF? The Imperium invaded Orktober!
Is NOTHING sacred?

Amen man. That's the very first thing I saw, and it's the most disturbing of all the new SM tidbits!

That aside, I'm sorely tempted to pick up a Thunderfire Cannon for it's undeniable conversion power...

While undeniably true, you will be shot with the new Conversion Beamer for such sacrilege!

From far away, no less!

I like the drop pods best of all the new releases.

OT:
But when deploying them after landing can your marines be placed around the edges of the open doors or the main frame.

Also love the grenade launcher on the scout biker, still won't make me take them.

Shiny as it may be, I expect these Marines to compare to the next few 'dexes like a 486 to a Dual Core.

And then we'll never see the end of these threads as Marienz will cry out in pain against Starcannons (H4 AP1, the future Codex: Eldar & Friends) that kills their Marines dead, Slaaneshi units (from the coming Codex: Chaos Legions: Slaanesh) that rape them, and finally (coming in Tantric style) a Dark Eldar Codex that kills them, then rapes them.

All this and more in 40k's 8th ruleset, where we find out (thanks to fluff progression at last!) that Abaddon lost his underwear somewhere in Cadia, meaning that the 13th Crusade was for nothing and Chaos lost again.

i'm pretty much with destrado on this, BUT, i do believe my CSM are pretty much screwed at this point... unless all that gets onto the tables are like 22 guys in a 1000-ish point game... then maybe not. nonetheless, I'm angry. Come onnnn chaos legions.....

What will this do for the Chaos Space Marine land raiders? Will Chaos now be able to put 12 in a LR or 6 Termies?

FU 2000 wrote:What will this do for the Chaos Space Marine land raiders? Will Chaos now be able to put 12 in a LR or 6 Termies?

Uh no. The older land raiders are smaller. And chaos doesn't get the newer ones, but they make up for it with possessed and dreadnoughts.

and don't forget the lovely spawn and to some extent the defiler

It looks like the Thunderfire will be neat with three modes:

1. Powerful blast
2. Cover ignoring blast (probably will be used the most)
3. Pinning blast (probably will count as ordinance barrage)

So techmarine + scouts with camo cloaks = 2+ cover save almost all the time? Pathfinder's just became a bit less impressive...

I blame global warming....

I'm not in love with the new rumours but I think CSM are not doing so bad. And yes, I play them.

CSM features two impressive features:

1. A wide range of great troops choices (many fearless)
2. A definite design ethos to make AP3 the new black - look at how many more ways to access AP3 were granted in this list.

And before you cry out at such sacrilegious endorsement, I am not emotionally crippled by the removal of Traitor Legions and their almost entirely broken rules.

Back on thread, biggest annoyances with SM rumours so far are

1. The apparent options to allow deep strike assaults same turn
2. Librarians to be able to use two powers per turn
3. The general idiom of 'we never met a 5th edition rules limitation we didn't then break with Marines'. I'm only waiting for the rule that says Marines can consolidate into a new combat and we'll have the full set...

two_heads_talking wrote:there's a crow's nest area for the terminator armored IC to join in.. he is stuck in like R2D2 in an X or Y wing..

Destrado wrote:Shiny as it may be, I expect these Marines to compare to the next few 'dexes like a 486 to a Dual Core.

And then we'll never see the end of these threads as Marienz will cry out in pain against Starcannons (H4 AP1, the future Codex: Eldar & Friends) that kills their Marines dead, Slaaneshi units (from the coming Codex: Chaos Legions: Slaanesh) that rape them, and finally (coming in Tantric style) a Dark Eldar Codex that kills them, then rapes them.

All this and more in 40k's 8th ruleset, where we find out (thanks to fluff progression at last!) that Abaddon lost his underwear somewhere in Cadia, meaning that the 13th Crusade was for nothing and Chaos lost again.

Be that as it may, I guess anything will beat the constant cries (and crying) of "Spase Marinez!! !HURR!!11!!".

Noisy_Marine wrote:Uh no. The older land raiders are smaller. And chaos doesn't get the newer ones, but they make up for it with possessed and dreadnoughts.

ROFL

..And with that, Noisy_Marine wins the thread!

Eric

Tribune wrote:I'm not in love with the new rumours but I think CSM are not doing so bad. And yes, I play them.

CSM features two impressive features:

1. A wide range of great troops choices (many fearless)
2. A definite design ethos to make AP3 the new black - look at how many more ways to access AP3 were granted in this list.

And before you cry out at such sacrilegious endorsement, I am not emotionally crippled by the removal of Traitor Legions and their almost entirely broken rules.

Back on thread, biggest annoyances with SM rumours so far are

1. The apparent options to allow deep strike assaults same turn
2. Librarians to be able to use two powers per turn
3. The general idiom of 'we never met a 5th edition rules limitation we didn't then break with Marines'. I'm only waiting for the rule that says Marines can consolidate into a new combat and we'll have the full set...

You forgot:
4. The Machine Spirit allows you to fire all vehicle weapons even if you moved.

The assaulting after deepstriking change seems like a rule dedicated to selling Drop Pods and Terminators.

p-man13 wrote:
You forgot:
4. The Machine Spirit allows you to fire all vehicle weapons even if you moved.

The assaulting after deepstriking change seems like a rule dedicated to selling Drop Pods and Terminators.

Machine Spirit allows you to fire one weapon more than you would normally be allowed.

The only unit that can assault after DS is the Jump Pack Vets (that I've read at least).

AgeOfEgos wrote:

p-man13 wrote:
You forgot:
4. The Machine Spirit allows you to fire all vehicle weapons even if you moved.

The assaulting after deepstriking change seems like a rule dedicated to selling Drop Pods and Terminators.

Machine Spirit allows you to fire one weapon more than you would normally be allowed.

The only unit that can assault after DS is the Jump Pack Vets (that I've read at least).

According to rumor, Machine Spirit will change in the new 'dex to allow all guns to fire so long as the raider didn't move more than 6". Of course, CSM Raiders don't even have Machine spirit any more...

Assault after DS with 1-3 units is pretty good.

At least my CSM will go back to beeing loyalists with horns and skulls. Probably cross over their chaos markings like the red corsairs used to do. Now they are CSM, Common Space Marines.

Antonin wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

p-man13 wrote:
You forgot:
4. The Machine Spirit allows you to fire all vehicle weapons even if you moved.

The assaulting after deepstriking change seems like a rule dedicated to selling Drop Pods and Terminators.

Machine Spirit allows you to fire one weapon more than you would normally be allowed.

The only unit that can assault after DS is the Jump Pack Vets (that I've read at least).

According to rumor, Machine Spirit will change in the new 'dex to allow all guns to fire so long as the raider didn't move more than 6". Of course, CSM Raiders don't even have Machine spirit any more...

Assault after DS with 1-3 units is pretty good.

That was a rather old rumour. The current incarnation of machine spirit is (taken from B&C roundup);

"Machine Spirit now makes it more formidable (WS4 and may engage another target)."

Which fits with the latest DaemonHunter FAQ. I guess we'll know for sure when the dex arrives but most current rumours point to this. I don't play CSM so cannot comment too heavily on their Raiders but if memory serves they are cheaper and also have DP available.

With the scatter and the mishap table, assaulting after DS is not that good at all. 66% of the time you will scatter with the most common scatter being 7. That means if you scatter towards the enemy (which you deployed within 6' of to assault) you roll mishap. If you scatter away, you lose chance to assault and get shot. Very risky for a group of vets that cost 25-30 pts a pop.

Tribune wrote:
3. The general idiom of 'we never met a 5th edition rules limitation we didn't then break with Marines'. I'm only waiting for the rule that says Marines can consolidate into a new combat and we'll have the full set...

All other things aside, this is what irks me about these rumors. That they first introduce the new rules with new limitations, and then give Marines the ability to ignore them. Maybe I'll feel better about it if IG gets to do something similar.

did anyone notice on the ultramarines sicuras (sp?)
model you get a plumed head and the regular head.
hopefully they do a bits pack of these. would make it a lot easier to do some prehersey marines like the cover of false gods book.
must admit the sculpts making spending money of this stuff way to easy

So, the design philosophy swings back to "bling bling". How long do you think it'll last? I bet it goes back to "streamlined" in time for Dark Eldar.

DP is not very useful on a vehicle with lascannons, which require BS to shoot. I'ld rather have the ability to fire two lascannons on the move with BS 4 each.

Anyone know how many Vanguard vets an army can have? If it's 0-1, then they may not be too bad.

on scattering, I don't think that is as bad as you suggest. 1/3 of the time they go where you need them to; if they deviate over the enemy they may still be able to land (especially if they are a small squad, which is appropriate given the points; if they are on the mishap table, and are placed by the other player, that play has fairly limited options on where to place them; they cannot be placed anywhere within 6" of any enemy troops, but if they are placed too far away they will survive to move and charge the next turn.

How about the Shrike combo? DS, then fleet, then charge. Does that work still?

Quick question that sort of goes along with the direction the thread has headed. Has there been any word on whether or not Lysander will be keeping his Teleport Assault rule in the new book? I've always been a big fan of large numbers of Terminators, even had an Invictus led army back in 3rd, and I'm curious to see if a new variation of the Lysander wing is going to be an option in larger games.

Antonin wrote:DP is not very useful on a vehicle with lascannons, which require BS to shoot. I'ld rather have the ability to fire two lascannons on the move with BS 4 each.

Anyone know how many Vanguard vets an army can have? If it's 0-1, then they may not be too bad.

on scattering, I don't think that is as bad as you suggest. 1/3 of the time they go where you need them to; if they deviate over the enemy they may still be able to land (especially if they are a small squad, which is appropriate given the points; if they are on the mishap table, and are placed by the other player, that play has fairly limited options on where to place them; they cannot be placed anywhere within 6" of any enemy troops, but if they are placed too far away they will survive to move and charge the next turn.

How about the Shrike combo? DS, then fleet, then charge. Does that work still?

Well, lets compare the Chaos Raider to the rumoured Loyalist version;

Chaos Raider 240 pts w/ DP
Can always move 6' and shoot 1 Las Cannon at BS 3 but it is twin-linked
Can always choose not to move and shoot 2 Las Cannons at BS 3 but it is twin-linked

Loyalist 265 pts w/ EA
Can move 6' and shoot 2 Las Cannons at BS4
Can choose not to move and shoot 2 Las Cannons at BS 4
If it is stunned/shaken, can only move

As of right now, I would rather have the Chaos Raider. 25 pts cheaper...and usually my opponents shoot my Raider until they get a result (Which any result negates its next turn)... then they ignore it (Unless it's carrying goodies).

As to the DS, I think it's incredibly risky. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about the mishap table, when you scatter on the enemy he has no limits on where he can place them! He can put them anywhere on the table, including difficult terrain...without scatter. As an example, he can place them 8 inches in front of his Devs then shoot them to hell next turn. My group has a pretty fair consensus of the mishap chart; 66% of the time that unit is dead.

With the new vehicle rules, I believe you'll see the assault vets with LCs, without JPs.... loaded up in a Crusader. Perhaps w/ Shrike!

With DP the Chaos Land Raider is ignoring shaken/stunned results too. And those BS4 lascannon shots are all also twin-linked.

All talk about DS risks needs to be qualified with the fact that SM will have the mishap-avoiding Drop Pod and also the 'can't scatter' Scout locater beacon available.

With DS - yes, your opponent gets to place them anywhere, but in practical terms, what does that mean?
1. Can't place them within 6" of any of his troops.
2. If you are playing Shrike, can't place them anywhere within 12" of any of his troops.
3. if he places them within 6" of terrain, you might (depending on the run roll) then run them to either be in cover or behind cover from those devs you spoke of.
4. Place them so far into your backfield that they are not close to his troops. Probably not getting shot by his stuff, in that case (especially with run).

this assumes he gets to place them - the other possibilities are that they are lost (which I grant is bad) or that they may simply come in the next turn instead.

Overall, the odds seem fine, even with 25-30 point models.

For Raiders - I think the ability to move and thereby "clear" a shot past cover is worth at least 25 points. I see your point, though.

For the math: BS3 twinlinked = 75% hit chance. BS 4 twinlinked = ~87% hit chance

Tribune wrote:All talk about DS risks needs to be qualified with the fact that SM will have the mishap-avoiding Drop Pod and also the 'can't scatter' Scout locater beacon available.

Right, that also. Good point.

I just fear those vets will be a "must-have" unit - I prefer more diversity.

Antonin wrote:With DS - yes, your opponent gets to place them anywhere, but in practical terms, what does that mean?
1. Can't place them within 6" of any of his troops.
2. If you are playing Shrike, can't place them anywhere within 12" of any of his troops.
3. if he places them within 6" of terrain, you might (depending on the run roll) then run them to either be in cover or behind cover from those devs you spoke of.
4. Place them so far into your backfield that they are not close to his troops. Probably not getting shot by his stuff, in that case (especially with run).

this assumes he gets to place them - the other possibilities are that they are lost (which I grant is bad) or that they may simply come in the next turn instead.

Overall, the odds seem fine, even with 25-30 point models.

For Raiders - I think the ability to move and thereby "clear" a shot past cover is worth at least 25 points. I see your point, though.

For the math: BS3 twinlinked = 75% hit chance. BS 4 twinlinked = ~87% hit chance

Ahh, I understand where you coming from now, my bad. In my experience though, I would argue that placing them in a firing lane (while keeping 6' away from you and terrain) is not that difficult when you don't scatter. I consider this not unlike the 'dead' result, except making my opponent at least roll dice to do it . 30 Points a model is pretty expensive to me too, given the inherent risk. Now, you mentioned Shrike...yes they would be nasty with Shrike but not with DS...but inflitrate (which he gives to one unit he's with). Flanking, fleeting, jump pack vets with LCs are a much better bet than DS IMO. I can understand where you are coming from though.

As to the Raider, I don't know...25 points less....only 12% less chance to hit. In addition, all it takes is one stun to make that Loyalist go from 87% chance to hit...to 0. Maybe I'm just unlucky with my Raiders getting stunned so often that I rate the ability to ignore both so high!

derek wrote:Quick question that sort of goes along with the direction the thread has headed. Has there been any word on whether or not Lysander will be keeping his Teleport Assault rule in the new book? I've always been a big fan of large numbers of Terminators, even had an Invictus led army back in 3rd, and I'm curious to see if a new variation of the Lysander wing is going to be an option in larger games.

Doubtful. No word on that ability. It doesnt matter. Termie command squads are gone, so the max amount of termies you can now have is three squads.

Tribune wrote:All talk about DS risks needs to be qualified with the fact that SM will have the mishap-avoiding Drop Pod and also the 'can't scatter' Scout locater beacon available.

Well, we're discussing assault from DS specifically....I don't know how the new pods will work (and I've seen nothing on allowing assaults from pods).

The locater beacon could be interesting...depends on how it's deployed though (when). If it's deployed after DS units arrive, it's not too bad. Just make sure you stay 6' away from the beacon (or move away after it's deployed). If you can deploy it BEFORE DS units arrive, for example turbo-boost your bikes..throw beacon down...then DS vets....then assault

Well, yeah that would be pretty damn good

Hellfury wrote:

derek wrote:Quick question that sort of goes along with the direction the thread has headed. Has there been any word on whether or not Lysander will be keeping his Teleport Assault rule in the new book? I've always been a big fan of large numbers of Terminators, even had an Invictus led army back in 3rd, and I'm curious to see if a new variation of the Lysander wing is going to be an option in larger games.

Doubtful. No word on that ability. It doesnt matter. Termie command squads are gone, so the max amount of termies you can now have is three squads.

Yeah...I assumed Lysander would give the option to trade one term unit--> troop. He's still pretty good though....if he throws a Term unit w/ SS in terrain, the entire unit will have 2++ saves!

Any one know if the land speeder model is all new, and if so, does the body fit together decently without a boatload of work filling and filing and filling some more?

Jake

Hellfury wrote:

derek wrote:Quick question that sort of goes along with the direction the thread has headed. Has there been any word on whether or not Lysander will be keeping his Teleport Assault rule in the new book? I've always been a big fan of large numbers of Terminators, even had an Invictus led army back in 3rd, and I'm curious to see if a new variation of the Lysander wing is going to be an option in larger games.

Doubtful. No word on that ability. It doesnt matter. Termie command squads are gone, so the max amount of termies you can now have is three squads.

That pretty much sucks, looks like it's back to "counts as" Deathwing if I want to do Termies. I don't understand the design shift really, retinues/command squads have been a part of the game at least since I started in early 3rd, and most every army had some form of it. I always hated the lone character running around, whether it was a chaplain with jump pack and no other jump troops, or barebones commander there to just meet the HQ requirement. Looks like it's something that is going to become a much more common sight.

CptJake wrote:Any one know if the land speeder model is all new, and if so, does the body fit together decently without a boatload of work filling and filing and filling some more?

The rumor I've heard on this is that GW is well aware of how crap it is to put the old Land Speeder model together and so has made improvements to this one to make it easier to assemble. Don't know how true it is, 'course, but just what I've heard.

Hey Guys!

I have read the new rules and I am very upset. I just think I wasted thousands of dollars on armies that have no chance of winning anymore. I can think of one army, the Tau/ I used to have a very effective TAU army that could 80% of the time have a real chance of winning. With these new units and new abilities, makes armies that have no ability to defend its self against the assault pointless. I can now drop pod in and land and assault into the fire lines on the turn of entrance. You all probably remember me as the one who fought so hard about the run assault after disembarking and telling me that it would break the rules and be so wrong if they could fleet out or even assault out of a vechicle. You all told me that would never happen they would never allow a unit to assault after disembarking. *look around and hears a beatle fart.* Wow.. have things have changed now. If no one can do it Marines can.. Thats the new view of this new book. Ravens Guard with there little commander now can infiltrate and fleet and bestow all his army with fleet So this is what will happen he iniltrates assaults on turn one and follows behind him is multiple assault squads assaulting on the first turn because of 24-inch assault. 12 move, 6 run, 6" Fleet. Here comes the death of the gun line armies. They made sure no armies could deploy and be in the other's deployment zone in the first turn. I choose to go first or now if I am lucky roll a 6 and take it away from the other person. I can then move, run, fleet and assault on turn one if get lucky. The armies like Tau have to have at least one turn of shooting before having to deal with assault marines or they will be slaughtered. We all know that the Tau can not figure out how to pick up a chain sword or power weapon to defend itself.

Next Point:

I have a question! Where in the cannon does it say that space marines are faster then the eldar? There is no unit in the whole eldar armies that can do a 24-inch assault! Why does it say that if I want a 3+ Save, I have to take Scorpions and lose fleet because I want my better save? But humans get it because they decide to strap about 200lbs of jetpack and run with it. I am sorry. But a marine got to 1000lb all decked out with jetpack. But he can run and assault with a huge jet packs on better then the nimble and graceful elf with only 5 to 4+ saves.

What this is going to do is make people play space marine armies and when you go down to your local game store to have in interesting games. It will marine on marine games... oooohh fun!...PAINT BALL, worse... Ravens Guard and Ravens Guard intermural leagues matches, or marine on demons games. Even better.

Have you read the RULES or the RULES RUMORS?

If the latter, you want want to take a deep breath and wait for the actual CODEX, with associated points costs for all of this stuff...

want some cheese with that whine astalado?

Fleet is no longer a movement boost, it lets you assault after running.

so its jump and run, 18 inches with a good roll of the die. as a gunline if you don't have more than 24 inches between you and your opponent your asking for trouble anyway.

usernamesareannoying wrote:

Fleet is no longer a movement boost, it lets you assault after running.

so its jump and run, 18 inches with a good roll of the die. as a gunline if you don't have more than 24 inches between you and your opponent your asking for trouble anyway.

I never said it was a movement boost. DUH read my writing.

For a gunline army, I'm NOT stupid enough to put my guys right on the line closest to my opponent as can be, you are right, that is asking for trouble. But in the new missions you have a 24 inch field in between the two deployment zones, so that people can not assault in the first turn. Now this unit can, IF you are stupid enough to deploy on your own deployment zone. Also, if Caven Shrike can infiltrate, plus give fleet, on the new flanking rule we have to deploy within 24 inches of the left and right board edge. So that gives us a 18X24 inch box to deploy in to feel safe.

Anyone wanna call in some artillery?

I'm NOT trying to sit here and just whine, just making points on why this is NOT right. Eventually everyone is going to be playing space marines, because no one will be able to beat them, unless your demons. But, what fun is it to go to a tournament and everyone is playing the same army?

Astalado wrote:12 move, 6 run, 6" Fleet.

i guess i misread that...

this same thread starts every new edition every new codex. people play what they want regardless of power creep and the latest greatest army.

Astalado wrote:Hey Guys!

I have read the new rules and I am very upset. I just think I wasted thousands of dollars on armies that have no chance of winning anymore. I can think of one army, the Tau/ I used to have a very effective TAU army that could 80% of the time have a real chance of winning. With these new units and new abilities, makes armies that have no ability to defend its self against the assault pointless. I can now drop pod in and land and assault into the fire lines on the turn of entrance. You all probably remember me as the one who fought so hard about the run assault after disembarking and telling me that it would break the rules and be so wrong if they could fleet out or even assault out of a vechicle. You all told me that would never happen they would never allow a unit to assault after disembarking. *look around and hears a beatle fart.* Wow.. have things have changed now. If no one can do it Marines can.. Thats the new view of this new book. Ravens Guard with there little commander now can infiltrate and fleet and bestow all his army with fleet So this is what will happen he iniltrates assaults on turn one and follows behind him is multiple assault squads assaulting on the first turn because of 24-inch assault. 12 move, 6 run, 6" Fleet. Here comes the death of the gun line armies. They made sure no armies could deploy and be in the other's deployment zone in the first turn. I choose to go first or now if I am lucky roll a 6 and take it away from the other person. I can then move, run, fleet and assault on turn one if get lucky. The armies like Tau have to have at least one turn of shooting before having to deal with assault marines or they will be slaughtered. We all know that the Tau can not figure out how to pick up a chain sword or power weapon to defend itself.

That's right. Tau will be spending all of 5th doing this;



Now, if I can only get my Tau buddy to setup exactly 24' away from, not react to anything I do, roll nothing but 6's on my fleet, not put any terrain that on the board, talk my friend into not shooting my HTH units after they wipe one Firewarrior unit (Or maybe he will allow me to consolidate into new units like 4th?)....then my games will match the cartoon!

Alpharius wrote:Have you read the RULES or the RULES RUMORS?

If the latter, you want want to take a deep breath and wait for the actual CODEX, with associated points costs for all of this stuff...

Do any of you honestly believe that it will go down like this? I see the argument " To sell the models!" all the time. Why would they make the points super high on any of these models? So they could sell 100$ worth of stuff and be done with that customer for awhile? I highly doubt anything like that is going to occur. I expect the points costs to be close to, if not the same as, the current ones.

You do realize `Nids have had units that can assault 24" for a long while now, right?

Typeline wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Have you read the RULES or the RULES RUMORS?

If the latter, you want want to take a deep breath and wait for the actual CODEX, with associated points costs for all of this stuff...

Do any of you honestly believe that it will go down like this? I see the argument " To sell the models!" all the time. Why would they make the points super high on any of these models? So they could sell 100$ worth of stuff and be done with that customer for awhile? I highly doubt anything like that is going to occur. I expect the points costs to be close to, if not the same as, the current ones.

Yeah, I do believe it, kind of.

The "Special Characters" that let you do a lot of the funky stuff are bound to be rather pricey.

Take two, and watch the rest of your selections dwindle.

Again, does anyone really think that the new Marine Codex is going to push them to the top tier?

usernamesareannoying wrote:

Astalado wrote:12 move, 6 run, 6" Fleet.

i guess i misread that...

this same thread starts every new edition every new codex. people play what they want regardless of power creep and the latest greatest army.

Nope, don't think you misread anything. I am sure it was a mistake of sorts though. I wish Run and Fleet worked like that together, at least for Eldar races.

We all really should just wait until the codex is officially released along with the FAQ to go with it before we start complaining.

so can you have shrike and the drop pod vets that can assault after dropping?

Alpharius wrote:
Again, does anyone really think that the new Marine Codex is going to push them to the top tier?

Absolutely. At least initially. There will be some new super combo that will come out and it will just take a while to learn how to deal with it. Drop pod armies were stupid tough when the last marine codex came out. Now where are they? But for a while, I expect people to be very thankful that they were able to pull a draw when using a Xeno codex.

Astalado wrote:There is no unit in the whole eldar armies that can do a 24-inch assault!

Wyches with 12 inch assault (combat drugs) and swooping hawks can both do it. Of course, doing so with hawks isn't likely to accomplish much.

Thing is, with infiltrate, fleet and and jump pack Shrike could manage this in the old Codex but it really expensive.

Just wait for the points costs before panicking about marines being this all conquering list. Marines have not had a history of being the top codex, and I don't see that being likely to change.

Astalado wrote:I have read the new rules and I am very upset.

We all know that the Tau can not figure out how to pick up a chain sword or power weapon to defend itself.

There is no unit in the whole eldar armies that can do a 24-inch assault! .

Maybe you should start a Marine army?

That is why Tau have Kroot as *Troops*.

Except for Swooping Hawks.

Does GW have an overstock on Chaplain Cassius models?
Suddenly the Chaplain no one ever used because of his cost in comparison to a vanilla Chaplain, which is cheaper, but lacking the Tyr.Vet upgrade. Is the super awesome toughness 6 marine?!!

Did I miss something? Something big?
Are we going to see a whole slew of "Chaplain Cassius" count as Chaplains? I don't know about you guys but Chaplain "Crassius" of the 6th Company, sure wins it for my Dark Angels.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Hellfury wrote:

derek wrote:Quick question that sort of goes along with the direction the thread has headed. Has there been any word on whether or not Lysander will be keeping his Teleport Assault rule in the new book? I've always been a big fan of large numbers of Terminators, even had an Invictus led army back in 3rd, and I'm curious to see if a new variation of the Lysander wing is going to be an option in larger games.

Doubtful. No word on that ability. It doesnt matter. Termie command squads are gone, so the max amount of termies you can now have is three squads.

Yeah...I assumed Lysander would give the option to trade one term unit--> troop. He's still pretty good though....if he throws a Term unit w/ SS in terrain, the entire unit will have 2++ saves!

I thought lysander fortified a piece of terrain to add +1 to cover saves, not a +1 to invuls.

RedSarge wrote:Suddenly the Chaplain no one ever used because of his cost in comparison to a vanilla Chaplain, which is cheaper, but lacking the Tyr.Vet upgrade. Is the super awesome toughness 6 marine?!!

Did I miss something? Something big?

Old models that no one bought last edition usually always get a boost, so, yes, if you don't already know this then you have missed something.

BYE

Am i the only one who finds it hilarious, that GW claims, that now LARGER squads are more attractive for players, because you can split them into multiple SMALL ones?

Stingray_tm wrote:Am i the only one who finds it hilarious, that GW claims, that now LARGER squads are more attractive for players, because you can split them into multiple SMALL ones?

I don't so much mind this change. I usually ran near full squads in one off games, and the ability to split my heavy weapon off into a unit that won't be moving, while having my assault weapon in a Rhino moving forward is kind of a welcome change to me, even if the unit ends up costing another 30ish points(I was running 8 man squads before, just going with the cost of two marines currently as I haven't seen anything decisive saying that they will be going up in cost yet).

Hellfury wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Hellfury wrote:

derek wrote:Quick question that sort of goes along with the direction the thread has headed. Has there been any word on whether or not Lysander will be keeping his Teleport Assault rule in the new book? I've always been a big fan of large numbers of Terminators, even had an Invictus led army back in 3rd, and I'm curious to see if a new variation of the Lysander wing is going to be an option in larger games.

Doubtful. No word on that ability. It doesnt matter. Termie command squads are gone, so the max amount of termies you can now have is three squads.

Yeah...I assumed Lysander would give the option to trade one term unit--> troop. He's still pretty good though....if he throws a Term unit w/ SS in terrain, the entire unit will have 2++ saves!

I thought lysander fortified a piece of terrain to add +1 to cover saves, not a +1 to invuls.

Yeah, I think I suffered a CVA before typing that. I meant that scouts w/ sniper rifles will have a 2++ save in his terrain.

/Marine Pathfinders?

ProtoClone wrote:

usernamesareannoying wrote:

Astalado wrote:12 move, 6 run, 6" Fleet.

i guess i misread that...
this same thread starts every new edition every new codex. people play what they want regardless of power creep and the latest greatest army.

Nope, don't think you misread anything. I am sure it was a mistake of sorts though. I wish Run and Fleet worked like that together, at least for Eldar races.
We all really should just wait until the codex is officially released along with the FAQ to go with it before we start complaining.

Astalado did put in a fleet move, despite his protestations now - but, to his credit, change "Fleet" to "charge" and the underlying premise is correct. One change is that Shrike used to give his abilities to one unit;now, doesn't he give fleet to his whole army? That seems to dramatically ramp up SM's power; infiltrating units have a charge range of 24" potentially, which is brutal, and the Vets with their DS + run move + charge will have a 12" effective range. What does that do to a Tau or IG army? Not good things, I think. Kroot are good, but not that good.

Antonin wrote:

ProtoClone wrote:

usernamesareannoying wrote:

Astalado wrote:12 move, 6 run, 6" Fleet.

i guess i misread that...
this same thread starts every new edition every new codex. people play what they want regardless of power creep and the latest greatest army.

Nope, don't think you misread anything. I am sure it was a mistake of sorts though. I wish Run and Fleet worked like that together, at least for Eldar races.
We all really should just wait until the codex is officially released along with the FAQ to go with it before we start complaining.

Astalado did put in a fleet move, despite his protestations now - but, to his credit, change "Fleet" to "charge" and the underlying premise is correct. One change is that Shrike used to give his abilities to one unit;now, doesn't he give fleet to his whole army? That seems to dramatically ramp up SM's power; infiltrating units have a charge range of 24" potentially, which is brutal, and the Vets with their DS + run move + charge will have a 12" effective range. What does that do to a Tau or IG army? Not good things, I think. Kroot are good, but not that good.

I don't know, in all our 5th games it seems elite HTH units aren't worth their points. Two reasons why;

Combat is resolved in one player turn (the player that assaulted)
You can't consolidate into fresh units

As long as your opponent spaces his units so you can't assault two in the same turn, you will likely end up assaulting one unit...sweep it then be open to shooting next phase. I think 5th will see the emergence of horde armies and multi-shot low AP weaponry.

RedSarge wrote:Are we going to see a whole slew of "Chaplain Cassius" count as Chaplains? I don't know about you guys but Chaplain "Crassius" of the 6th Company, sure wins it for my Dark Angels.

And yeah, I think we will see a whole slew of Chaplain Cassius counts as Chaplains, along with all the other counts as characters like Vulkan and MC.

Astalado wrote:Hey Guys!

(snip)

One assault squad will no longer kill a gunline. If you're facing one infiltrating fleeting jumping squad, throw a sacrifice squad up there. They can't consolidate into another squad. So, gun them down in your turn.

Or Plasma blast spam their asses away before they even get there....

With the new cheaper plasma cannons it should be a lot easier, and with the new scatter rules allow for some hilarity there as well! (You did not just scatter that onto your allies Logan Grimnar! Oh you Emo Marine Bastard your dead!)

I've actually started a marine army that has 4 pc's in a dev squad, just for giggles. Here's hoping it works out for me.

Valhallan42nd wrote:

Astalado wrote:Hey Guys!
(snip)

One assault squad will no longer kill a gunline. If you're facing one infiltrating fleeting jumping squad, throw a sacrifice squad up there. They can't consolidate into another squad. So, gun them down in your turn.

Since they jump, I hope they'll ignore the sacrifice squad and charge something worthwhile.
And then the deepstriking fleeting vets? Another sacrifice squad? You can't surround your army with sacrifice squads.

I think the best way to run the vets or the assault squads is in very small numbers, so they do not win by a lot - that way they will still be in combat at the end of their turn. Or have them charge fearless units.

Valhallan - good point, but it isn't just one unit.

Antonin, I agree one assault squad I can deal with.. The thing is this. Now marines can get many units into assault by turn two. Not just one.

Ravens Guard: Possible 4 maybe 5 squads into assault in turn two

or even worse Dreadnaughts with Fleet!!!


1 Shrieks Squad
2-4 - Assault squads with Fleet
5. Elite choice with all power weapons from drop pod

Remeber three marines can kill a tau fire warrior squad
also they are getting 2 attack base per marine, due to the close combat weapon and bolt pistol rule.

Normal Marines:

1-3 squads with drop pods get into assault

I not saying the one squad. I am scared of 3 to five squads in a gunline in turn one or two.

Valhallan42nd wrote:I've actually started a marine army that has 4 pc's in a dev squad, just for giggles. Here's hoping it works out for me.

Oh, they'll do just fine. Don't worry about that.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:I've actually started a marine army that has 4 pc's in a dev squad, just for giggles. Here's hoping it works out for me.

Oh, they'll do just fine. Don't worry about that.

The laughs I used to receive when I threw down my devs have turned to groans

AgeOfEgos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:I've actually started a marine army that has 4 pc's in a dev squad, just for giggles. Here's hoping it works out for me.

Oh, they'll do just fine. Don't worry about that.

The laughs I used to receive when I threw down my devs have turned to groans

Yup.

I'm just sad that I followed through on this thought: "There's just no way I'm *ever* going to field a second full unit of Plasma Cannon Devastators, so I should go ahead and sell these extra Plasma Cannon dudes..."

Astalado wrote:Antonin, I agree one assault squad I can deal with.. The thing is this. Now marines can get many units into assault by turn two. Not just one.

Ravens Guard: Possible 4 maybe 5 squads into assault in turn two

or even worse Dreadnaughts with Fleet!!!


1 Shrieks Squad
2-4 - Assault squads with Fleet
5. Elite choice with all power weapons from drop pod

Remeber three marines can kill a tau fire warrior squad
also they are getting 2 attack base per marine, due to the close combat weapon and bolt pistol rule.

Normal Marines:

1-3 squads with drop pods get into assault

I not saying the one squad. I am scared of 3 to five squads in a gunline in turn one or two.

Really?

A Tau Gunline army isn't going to be able to concentrate fire and take out some of the 4 or 5 squads approaching? And if not eliminate them, severely limit their effectiveness?

Really?

The new marine dex strikes so much fear into little Tau hearts,the bluegrays just dying when looking at ASM or droppods.

Maybe you love if the rumored psipower of "gate of infinity" comes true.Deepstriking libby plus squad with 24" range and if he leads
vets with "heroic intervention" they can deepstrike and assault every turn.

But i don't think Shrike has a jumppack-command squad in the new dex.
Vanguard with jumppack seems to be Fast assault,so max 3 ASM (except of BA).

Alpharius wrote:Really?

A Tau Gunline army isn't going to be able to concentrate fire and take out some of the 4 or 5 squads approaching? And if not eliminate them, severely limit their effectiveness?

Really?

There's no Tau gunline in existence that can kill 35 MEQ assault troops from 24" away in one turn. 3 assault squads and an assault retinue are going to cost a hefty 1000-ish points, but they only need to deliver 500-ish points into assault range before they kill everything. No consolidation certainly helps the gunline, but against such mobile troops it's quite likely that multiple squads will be assaulted and rolled up. It's all well and good to say that you can deploy speedbump units and make sure your guys are all 6 or 7 inches apart, but when you back up to rear table edge to maximize your deployment distance and take 20" off of each flank to protect yourself from the Outflank maneuver, you're looking at a "safety zone" that is absolutely tiny. They'll be packed in like sardines. You'll have one great shooting gallery turn, and then all of your guys will die.

Or you can deploy piecemeal and be taken apart piecemeal. Shrike won't care much.

sourclams wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Really?

A Tau Gunline army isn't going to be able to concentrate fire and take out some of the 4 or 5 squads approaching? And if not eliminate them, severely limit their effectiveness?

Really?

There's no Tau gunline in existence that can kill 35 MEQ assault troops from 24" away in one turn. 3 assault squads and an assault retinue are going to cost a hefty 1000-ish points, but they only need to deliver 500-ish points into assault range before they kill everything. No consolidation certainly helps the gunline, but against such mobile troops it's quite likely that multiple squads will be assaulted and rolled up. It's all well and good to say that you can deploy speedbump units and make sure your guys are all 6 or 7 inches apart, but when you back up to rear table edge to maximize your deployment distance and take 20" off of each flank to protect yourself from the Outflank maneuver, you're looking at a "safety zone" that is absolutely tiny. They'll be packed in like sardines. You'll have one great shooting gallery turn, and then all of your guys will die.

Or you can deploy piecemeal and be taken apart piecemeal. Shrike won't care much.

I wasn't suggesting that the Tau force, always geared towards shooting, was going to ELIMINATE the 4 or 5 approaching assault squads.

But, with the no more consolidating into HTH, after being shot up on the way in, just how effective will the remainder be?

And with the Tau really be unable to deal with it?

I don't think it is even close to as bad as a lot of people think it will be.

I never thought I'd see the day when people thought the sky was falling due to a Marine release!

Ha!

I don't think the sky is falling. I don't play Tau, and since I've got Marines (who doesn't) the power armor superclads being better might bring them off the shelf for a little while.

But yes, gunline Tau are invariably going to be torn to shreds by fleeting jump pack troops. They'll get one turn of shooting, probably non-rapid fire, and then they'll have power armored line backers engaging two to three squads--and destroying those squads--at a time.

Now add in the reality of 5th ed: 2/3 of the games require your army to be mobile, capturing objectives across the board. 1/3 of your games will require your troops to kill your opponent's more efficiently than theirs can yours.

Shrike + Retinue + 3 Assault Squads = 5 kill points' worth of assault marines.

Crisis Commander + Retinue + 6 squads of Fire Warriors = 8 kill points and they're still going to need to flush out their list with more stuff which will provide more kill points and probably reduce your effectiveness overall (Tau in devilfish versus 10 marines packing kraks = dead fish, dead tau, 2 KPs).

Can 35 assault marines kill off 6 kill points' worth of Tau before being gutted to the point of non-effectiveness? Yeah, yeah they can.

Again, I'm not saying that Marines are the new uber (although they're going to be a lot better), but there are going to be some matchups where, if you're a betting man, you can safely let your mortgage ride because the statistics are just so weighted to one side.

I guess we'll see!

It might be 'bad' for a bit, but then everyone will probably realize that Horde Orks are still the way to go!

Has anyone been able to get a good look at the codex yet? Has there been any point changes to anything?

If 5 KP of SM can kill 6 KP of Tau in HtH (where Tau suck), I don't see the problem.

To me, there is one distressing fact of this whole thread.

From the first image:

"October 2008 is Space Marines month."


WTF? The Imperium invaded Orktober!
Is NOTHING sacred?

i feel your pain

also this could be space marines down fall their getting a lot of close combat units every1 knows orks
and nids are da best at CC

JohnHwangDD wrote:If 5 KP of SM can kill 6 KP of Tau in HtH (where Tau suck), I don't see the problem.

There is that, too...

I played 2,000 points of BA vs. 2,000 points of Tau recently. I have to tell you.... I got shot off the board. Every. Single. Model. The d6 run is all fine and dandy, but be sure not to roll one's and two's for your entire army every turn. The only thing that hit his lines in any decent numbers was the DC, and they killed two whole FW units before he was able to bring two more and a unit of crisis suits to bear. ouch.

Wow.........

My Raven Guard just got really good. Astaldo is right about Tau dieing to three fleeting marine assault squads and Kayvann Shrike himself. I think overall, the Tau are just dead in 5th Ed. against marines. The only feasible way that I can see to defend the gunlines is hammerheads firing railgun submunitions.

As for the rumoured new rules, thank god Shrike has an invulnerable save! He was good before, but now he is amazing! Does anyone know what is going to happen to Shrike's Wing? I actually went out and modeled 9 assault marines with lightening claws to use as his wing. Are the retinues gone?

@anduril_93:

Sadly "shrikes wing" IIRC gone.

The rumors until now had also pairs of Lightning Claws only for SC or IC,so maybe troopers or vetsargents may not take them.

Anyway,some pics of "shrikes wing" ?

I think Retinues are pretty much a thing of the past, in general. Perhaps this is why the Elites options feel suitably beefed up, to offset/compensate?

Compensate by delivering a honor guard to a chapter master may be
but 3 of them for papa smurf? :S

RedSarge wrote:Does GW have an overstock on Chaplain Cassius models?
Suddenly the Chaplain no one ever used because of his cost in comparison to a vanilla Chaplain, which is cheaper, but lacking the Tyr.Vet upgrade. Is the super awesome toughness 6 marine?!!

Did I miss something? Something big?

Wait, WHAT??? Did I just read that right? Chaplain Cassius is now tougher than Typhus Herald of Nurgle and Host of f#%ing the Destroyer Hive?!?! I'm sorry that is just made of pure slow.

Cassius just got elevated to overall "master of sanctity" and a T6,FNP and maybe a chaplains invul save.Plus new fluff.
Need more? To be a smurf,or not to be,thats the question if you want new toys.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Wait, WHAT??? Did I just read that right? Chaplain Cassius is now tougher than Typhus Herald of Nurgle and Host of f#%ing the Destroyer Hive?!?! I'm sorry that is just made of pure slow.

And Tiggy's better than Ahriman, Calgar is better than Abaddon, and everyone else is still better than Lucius.

Damn it's good to be Loyalist!

BYE

1hadhq wrote:Cassius just got elevated to overall "master of sanctity" and a T6,FNP and maybe a chaplains invul save.Plus new fluff.

So what's the new fluff? He get double Marks of Nurgle or something?

So this confirms that the Salamaders character won't be out with the initial release. :(

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Cassius just got elevated to overall "master of sanctity" and a T6,FNP and maybe a chaplains invul save.Plus new fluff.

So what's the new fluff? He get double Marks of Nurgle or something?

He's just really, really scarred and filled with faith.

sourclams wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Cassius just got elevated to overall "master of sanctity" and a T6,FNP and maybe a chaplains invul save.Plus new fluff.

So what's the new fluff? He get double Marks of Nurgle or something?

He's just really, really scarred and filled with faith.

Oh, well that makes sense. If you're really, really scarred and filled with daemonic power then you get +1T. If you're really, really scarred and filled with faith you get +2T. Of course.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Oh, well that makes sense. If you're really, really scarred and filled with daemonic power then you get +1T. If you're really, really scarred and filled with faith you get +2T. Of course.

I'm not one to bitch, but I have to agree with this one. No way in hell that dude should be as tough as an MC. Tougher than some MC's even. You're on a 25mm base, your max toughness should be 5. Hella, hella stupid. He better be 4(6) as well.

Antonin wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:

Astalado wrote:Hey Guys!
(snip)

One assault squad will no longer kill a gunline. If you're facing one infiltrating fleeting jumping squad, throw a sacrifice squad up there. They can't consolidate into another squad. So, gun them down in your turn.

Since they jump, I hope they'll ignore the sacrifice squad and charge something worthwhile.
And then the deepstriking fleeting vets? Another sacrifice squad? You can't surround your army with sacrifice squads.

I think the best way to run the vets or the assault squads is in very small numbers, so they do not win by a lot - that way they will still be in combat at the end of their turn. Or have them charge fearless units.

Valhallan - good point, but it isn't just one unit.

Is there any unit that Tau can take in numbers greater than 10? Perhaps surrounding your fireunits with a larger, more expendable squad so that the only unit that can be charged is your literal meatshield.

-x--x--x--x--x--x
x oooooooooo x
-x DEVIL x-
FISHIE
FISH

Drake_Marcus wrote:So this confirms that the Salamaders character won't be out with the initial release. :(

Salamanders don't matter to GW, hasn't the past 4 years of being told that you're a green smurf taught you that?

Er, you've seen the rules for the new Salamander character, right?

Expect to see a few more Salamandar armies out there soon...

It would be good to have more different armys out there,Salamanders/White Scars/Raven Guard/Iron Hands are not used too much.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Cassius just got elevated to overall "master of sanctity" and a T6,FNP and maybe a chaplains invul save.Plus new fluff.

So what's the new fluff? He get double Marks of Nurgle or something?

He's just really, really scarred and filled with faith.

Oh, well that makes sense. If you're really, really scarred and filled with daemonic power then you get +1T. If you're really, really scarred and filled with faith you get +2T. Of course.

His T6 may be the bionics he seems to get (scarred).The faith just gives FNP.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

RedSarge wrote:Does GW have an overstock on Chaplain Cassius models?
Suddenly the Chaplain no one ever used because of his cost in comparison to a vanilla Chaplain, which is cheaper, but lacking the Tyr.Vet upgrade. Is the super awesome toughness 6 marine?!!

Did I miss something? Something big?

Wait, WHAT??? Did I just read that right? Chaplain Cassius is now tougher than Typhus Herald of Nurgle and Host of f#%ing the Destroyer Hive?!?! I'm sorry that is just made of pure slow.

Yeah, for once I agree with Aba. Although it's entirely possible that it was just a typo or something. Pics or it didn't happen, and so forth.

Alpharius wrote:Er, you've seen the rules for the new Salamander character, right?

Expect to see a few more Salamandar armies out there soon...

Oh I have. It was more a sarcastic observation since everything that made Salamanders unique was removed in the last Codex.

1hadhq wrote:His T6 may be the bionics he seems to get (scarred).

Oh he has bionics? Well that makes more sense then. Since he's now more machine than man he gets T6. You know, like a necron. I forget, necrons are still T6 right?

No? Well then maybe due to his bionics he's now half space marine bike (+1T). Like the bad guy from GOBOTS. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

1hadhq wrote:His T6 may be the bionics he seems to get (scarred).

Oh he has bionics? Well that makes more sense then. Since he's now more machine than man he gets T6. You know, like a necron. I forget, necrons are still T6 right?

No? Well then maybe due to his bionics he's now half space marine bike (+1T). Like the bad guy from GOBOTS. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Chaplain Cassius is T6 because of all the years he spent in the back room of game shops around the world, never being purchased or used in a game.

Eventually as he wondered about the aimless spaces in the back of game stores, he stumbled upon the copies of the 3.5 edition of the Chaos Codex that were thrown back there as the 4th Edition Codex's came out.

Unknowing of the nerfs brought about in the 4th Edition Chaos Codex, and seeing the stupidity of the Chaos Walmart/Armory in the 3.5 Edition Codex he was infused with the Holy Rage of the Emperor and became Toughness 6. As he emerged into the world of GW Playtesting, he eventually became aware of the new world of 40k and he was faced with the immense pain brought about by the teporal distortion of being fielded by many Marine armies across the Imperium, in every battle, on every world, all the time - and through this he developed the ability to Feel No Pain.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

1hadhq wrote:His T6 may be the bionics he seems to get (scarred).

Oh he has bionics? Well that makes more sense then. Since he's now more machine than man he gets T6. You know, like a necron. I forget, necrons are still T6 right?

No? Well then maybe due to his bionics he's now half space marine bike (+1T). Like the bad guy from GOBOTS. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Looks like a challenge to me.

Perhaps a....

No matter how they put it, I wish they left the typical stat unaltered.
Even if it was T5 (which I could understand given all his bionics) it'd still be a though pill to swallow. But T6 is just over the top. It makes no sense that Cassius is suddenly the toughest human in existence (I think he topples Mephiston in this field), he isn't even that cool fluffwise. He broke the Codex Astartes just because!

That'll teach those stupid chaos space marienz who thought they could become tougher by turning chaos! Ah! Faith in the Emperor all the way!

Truth be told I bet they'll say he ate some Tyranids and burned Old One Eye's with a plasma pistol he fired with his teeth - his hands were busy holding a Hive Tyrant and a Dominatrix (and slapping them at the same time).

Honestly though, does it matter?

Most of the time these IC's aren't really fearing normal attacks. It's the Rending/Powerfists/etc that take them down, and against those he's still going to die just the same.

Ok, I guess he can't be insta-splatted by a normal Sarge with a fist. But he's still a CC oriented model that walks around on foot.

On the other hand, it is rather funny that he's tougher than Typhus. Especially because the last game of 40k I played I insta-splatted Typhus with a Power Fist Sarge.

1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3

Threre you go. Three firewarror squads, all three can shoot, only the front squad can be chaged, you can always bend this formation into a cresent to protect your flanks. Just use a full 2 inch coherency. All three squads will see, and so what if you grant the marines a 4+ cover save. They will be using their 3+ armor save. That nasty assault squad charges the front and kills them, they are then staring down 40 str5 shots.

crap, did not keep the format. but you get the idea.

foil7102 wrote:crap, did not keep the format. but you get the idea.

I get the idea of placing my ordnance in the middle of your formation.
Even if I scatter your units will be broken and have to rally.If my ordnance counts as barrage i could pin them also.

It's not about that, boys.

He's tougher than an Ork?

I'm actually itching to see what kind of bull-and-cock story they'll cook up to make up for his ridiculous toughness.

Are all the "1"'s up against the table edge then?

Otherwise, wouldn't two assault squads be able to sandwich the border squads?

Using the above diagram:

1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 Veterans land here: X
2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 Veterans run closer.
3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 Veterans charge all three.

Antonin beat me to it. Long story short, 5 vet marines are going to kill probably 9 fire warriors, then all 3 squads have to make a leadership test at -7 or -8.

foil7102 wrote:1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3

Threre you go. Three firewarror squads, all three can shoot, only the front squad can be chaged, you can always bend this formation into a cresent to protect your flanks. Just use a full 2 inch coherency. All three squads will see, and so what if you grant the marines a 4+ cover save. They will be using their 3+ armor save. That nasty assault squad charges the front and kills them, they are then staring down 40 str5 shots.

And when the vanguard vets DS and assult all your 3 units they are all gonna die in one round, without shooting a single shot. Pretty sweet isnt it?

Which is why don't use straight lines, you envelop squads in other squads instead, or anchor flanks with terrain, or a thousand other things. It's like you think we're playing on a blank board with just three units. Think of the bigger picture. Force the other player to do what you want, don't just throw up your hands and say we're DOOMED!

Or run new SM and say: You're DOOMED!

Chaplain Cassius is T6 is a bit to mutch ( and I feeld the guy oke a T5 woud be beter )

If Cassius get T(6) imagine what Grimaldius will get

im pretty much sick of going agenst ultramarines!

I wonder how a background would GW fabricate for Cassius.
Aba or Typhus could only gain a T4(5) after a 10000-year-adventure,aren't they?

SonsOfLoki wrote:im pretty much sick of going agenst ultramarines!

If you're sick of going up against them now, wait until October!

Valhallan42nd wrote:

Antonin wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:

Astalado wrote:Hey Guys!
(snip)

One assault squad will no longer kill a gunline. If you're facing one infiltrating fleeting jumping squad, throw a sacrifice squad up there. They can't consolidate into another squad. So, gun them down in your turn.

Since they jump, I hope they'll ignore the sacrifice squad and charge something worthwhile.
And then the deepstriking fleeting vets? Another sacrifice squad? You can't surround your army with sacrifice squads.

I think the best way to run the vets or the assault squads is in very small numbers, so they do not win by a lot - that way they will still be in combat at the end of their turn. Or have them charge fearless units.

Valhallan - good point, but it isn't just one unit.

Is there any unit that Tau can take in numbers greater than 10? Perhaps surrounding your fireunits with a larger, more expendable squad so that the only unit that can be charged is your literal meatshield.

-x--x--x--x--x--x
x oooooooooo x
-x DEVIL x-
FISHIE
FISH

Has no one thought of the all Kroot Gunline yet? yah its expensive, yah it dies like flies, but they will and can be used as really goo sacficial units, cause they can form a semi circle around your entire Tau line. (Not to mention they might even be able to cause some damage themselves yah know. 20 Kroot, a Shaper and 12 hounds goes a long way towards eating low model count assault vets.)

... and if they form a semicircle around the Tau army, the opposing player gets a 4+ cover save against all of the tau shooting.

Aside from that, it might work. With the new combat resolution rules, I'm questioning whether Kroot can do as much as before, but they may in large squads.

Antonin wrote:... and if they form a semicircle around the Tau army, the opposing player gets a 4+ cover save against all of the tau shooting.

Aside from that, it might work. With the new combat resolution rules, I'm questioning whether Kroot can do as much as before, but they may in large squads.

Which they would use instead of their 3+ armor save? o_O True, this tactic would suck against say, orks, but marines? Who cares about giving them a cover save when you're using volume of fire to kill them?

tokugawa wrote:
Aba or Typhus could only gain a T4(5) after a 10000-year-adventure,aren't they?

They have not a T4(5),because theyre so old,its only a comparison to a greater demon and his T6.
Even a 100k years adventure won't collect T = x as a smurf can do in 100 years.

IT helps to read the entire post boys.

you can always bend this formation into a cresent to protect your flanks

Plus spread out at full cohenrancy I dont mind a few templates.

What you need to remember is that firewarrors don't care if they are giving marines a 4+ cover save. Also with a 30 inch basic range that can be deployed on the board edge and still probably shoot.

Looks like guard wont be for a while then. I thought dark eldar were next. We need a new IG book.

smart_alex wrote:Looks like guard wont be for a while then. I thought dark eldar were next. We need a new IG book.

A while? I thought they were next. It's the only one GW have hinted at (in WD). And didn't someone say March for them?

Guard get theirs in Either April or May Last I heard, as for the next 40k book its Space Wolves.

Can they fit them in between Warriors of Chaos and Guard then? Should be interesting either way. I'm really looking forward to Guard though.

Space Wolves are next after C: Space Marines?

I'm not sure Dakka's servers will be able to handle that load of whining (which in this case would actually be justifiable!).

Oh boy...

Are you kidding? A new Space Wolf Codex will bring with it a whole new set of plastic conversion kits to make awesome looking Space Wolves.

We know how well the Black Templar and Dark Angel kits came out - the BT sprue being one of my fav sprues GW has made, especially when you're making a Deathwatch army like I did - so a new set of Wolf sprues would be great.

And they need a new Codex. Their Codex still references the old original 3rd Ed Marine Codex.

BYE

I like space wolves as space marines go. But I'll still be annoyed at them getting the book and new models. Dark Eldar deserve it more.

I'd like to see a Space Wolves codex too, but even I can admit that two Marine codices in a row will be a bit much.

Dont worry about ever facing ultramarines again, or any other chapter for that matter. All the characters and their special abilities can be used in any "basic space marine army", built by the rules from this book.

So you now will face the army space marines, with Tigurius and Shrike(or whatever used to be chapter specific before), painted in green and red.

Da Boss wrote:Dark Eldar deserve it more.

Agreed. Our spiky friends havent seen a revison since 3rd ed, which is just pitiful.

just remember that during next year, Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar & Space Wolves codex's will come out so its just the matter of patience... as for me, i am counting the days till SM:codex comes out

Cheers,
Gutteridge

im just hoping i dont have to ebay half my SM army and re-build to fit new rules :K
aslong as my tac squads can ditch thier missile launcher for 2 melta guns thats fine

aint going to happen, 2 specials are out

Let us know when your minis hit eBay though!

there goes 6 meltaguns :K
not even bothering to replace them with a heavy wep, idea of using 2 special was so i could move and shoot :K

whats next? will they make the commander a fixed character so nothing can be upgraded on him?
or will the wargear section just get removed?
its taking the flexability out of armies, soon the game will just be a case of sit back and shoot.

Um, you have been reading the rumors about the new Space Marine Codex, right?

SM's have apparently survived the Jervis Treatment (see: DA and BA) and actually have a lot of options.

No consolidating into another combat does push the trend more towards the shooty side, true.

Some of the things we could do via Traits are no more, but since the big 'disadvantage' taken was always "We Stand Alone", you had to see that one coming!

All in all, SM players look to be very happy come October.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Are you kidding? A new Space Wolf Codex will bring with it a whole new set of plastic conversion kits to make awesome looking Space Wolves.

We know how well the Black Templar and Dark Angel kits came out - the BT sprue being one of my fav sprues GW has made, especially when you're making a Deathwatch army like I did - so a new set of Wolf sprues would be great.

And they need a new Codex. Their Codex still references the old original 3rd Ed Marine Codex.

BYE

I'd be happy with an upgrade sprue, a terminator upgrade sprue, and a dreadnought/vehicle upgrade sprue.

As to codex, they could do a pdf one, just so long as they leave the options for Wolf Guard/Lords intact.

im just not happy that a force based on CC isnt as easy to make now, and traits have been done away with too? :K

can you pm me a link please of the big changes?

derek wrote:As to codex, they could do a pdf one, just so long as they leave the options for Wolf Guard/Lords intact.

PDF Codices are lame (just ask any BA player!! ).

I want a real Space Puppy Codex with new models and plastic conversion kits. Given GW's recent plastic endeavours, I think it'll turn out great, and of all the 'different' types of Marines out there, they're the ones most in need of it (ignoring Chaos Marines, which need to get their 'Chaos' back ASAP).

BYE

JD21290 wrote:there goes 6 meltaguns :K
not even bothering to replace them with a heavy wep, idea of using 2 special was so i could move and shoot :K

whats next? will they make the commander a fixed character so nothing can be upgraded on him?
or will the wargear section just get removed?
its taking the flexability out of armies, soon the game will just be a case of sit back and shoot.

You should take a multimelta/heavy bolter/rock-it lawnchair in every squad. They're free in the new book, and if you're moving, that only means one less bolter round (the heavy weapons guy can still shoot his BP), while if you're stationary, your fire is radically better.

JD21290 wrote:or will the wargear section just get removed?

The Wargear section has been removed. No each entry has what options they can get rather than having a universal list for everyone.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

derek wrote:As to codex, they could do a pdf one, just so long as they leave the options for Wolf Guard/Lords intact.

PDF Codices are lame (just ask any BA player!! ).

I want a real Space Puppy Codex with new models and plastic conversion kits. Given GW's recent plastic endeavours, I think it'll turn out great, and of all the 'different' types of Marines out there, they're the ones most in need of it (ignoring Chaos Marines, which need to get their 'Chaos' back ASAP).

BYE

I think the BA codex is lame only because it was written as such. There is no rule saying they have to be.

I am just tired of waiting for an update. My codex is worn, torn, and in general bad shape, it's also the second oldest codex I own(Oldest is a 2nd Ed Eldar codex that is in a box in storage), and was bought shortly after it came out. I agree, I think we'll get some great kits when they do finally do it, but I'm betting it's going to be Q4 next year at the earliest.