What?

Yup, straight from GW themselves!


If you look at the Ard Boyz Rules, Deathwatch are allowed for the qualifiers using the 4th Edition SM book. But once it moves to the finals with the 5th Edition SM book, Deathwatch go bye-bye.

Anybody surprised?

Or care?

I care, but am not surprised.

It makes me worry about the "Combined Inquisition" Codex though...

think it bin moved to the combined

I'm not surprised. Concerned a smidgen. It was to be expected with how they based the Sternguard around the Deathwatch. I think this shows that in the future the only real difference GW will have if the do a separate Deathwatch list is some additional special rules. My concern is more in the watering down of the interesting combinations you can field with a DW Kill-team. This kinda puts Deathwatch a notch down on the totem pole of elite units.

Deathwatch was on the totem pole of elite units?

Same with 13th Company Wolves.

I'm not surprised that GW wants Deathwatch and the 13th Company to go the way of the very short, bearded guardsmen, but I can't understand the thinking behind the decision. The new rulebook provides the format for quick and easy games. So I guess with that fact in mind GW feels that every new codex should be quick and easy, by removing any and all interesting options that allow a player to make his army his. I started in this hobby when the only difference between chapters was a paint color, I really don't want to go back to those days. I'm just glad the group I play with will allow any unit you have modeled and have the rules for no matter how outmoded, out of favor, or disallowed by the GW tournament pogs.

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:Deathwatch was on the totem pole of elite units?

Yes, even the fact that GW decided to downgrade them and include them in the codex should tell you as much, that GW thought they were a worthwhile elite option. I've seen them fielded in IG and SM armies, because they were the hands down one of the best do all flexible options for either force. Now they're a one trick pony. Maybe GW will give them back some of their close combat options when they give alien hunters a codex.

Frankly, since I heard about the Sternguard marines and Kantor's special abilities, I'd been thinking about building a Deathwatch army and using those rules for it - the 'Ardboyz rules just solidified my ability to do that.

What happens if you play Inquisition or Imperial Guard with Deathwatch?

You just play Space Marines, using Stern Guard with Allied Inquisition units.

That doesn't really work if the only Spase Mareens (Hurr!) you own are Deathwatch ones.

You thought you wouldn't have to buy new models when GW updates the rules????????

Not really, it just means I'll Ebay my now useless Deathwatch Marines and spend the proceeds on some PP or Battlefront stuff. Another win for GW

George Spiggott wrote:That doesn't really work if the only Spase Mareens (Hurr!) you own are Deathwatch ones.

That phrase (Spase Marinez Hurr!! and all the variants) has been banned on Dakka*, due to overuse and for just really not being all that funny.


*OK, not really, but it should be!

Well this is a shame. I was slowly building a Deathwatch for my IG, looks like I should find something new for them then.

I say you just hold onto your deathwatch cause they will inevitably come back to it. It was a sucktastic thing for GW to do since a good deal of people use deathwatch and the sternguard rules give no latitude for use outside of a space marine army.

Wait, deathwatch were elite? lolz

That's some good times there.

Alpharius wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:That doesn't really work if the only Spase Mareens (Hurr!) you own are Deathwatch ones.

That phrase (Spase Marinez Hurr!! and all the variants) has been banned on Dakka*, due to overuse and for just really not being all the funny.


*OK, not really, but it should be!

I concur!

George Spiggott wrote:Not really, it just means I'll Ebay my now useless Deathwatch Marines and spend the proceeds on some PP or Battlefront stuff. Another win for GW

Err. Why don't you just designate certain of your DW units to count as a couple tactical squads? Or paint up a couple min strength scout squads to use as your troops? Seems drastic to throw the Deathwatch out with the bathwater.

Although, frankly George, if you're Deathwatch are painted as nice as your other work, shoot me some pics and I might be interested in buying them.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:Not really, it just means I'll Ebay my now useless Deathwatch Marines and spend the proceeds on some PP or Battlefront stuff. Another win for GW

Err. Why don't you just designate certain of your DW units to count as a couple tactical squads? Or paint up a couple min strength scout squads to use as your troops? Seems drastic to throw the Deathwatch out with the bathwater.

It's easier to get frustrated, and then get your "fix" from the other "dealers" out there.

No reason you can't use Deathwatch Marines as Sternguard Vets.

Hell, I've got two Deathwatch Tac Squads, a DW Assault, Dev, Command and 2 DW Terminator Squads. I can use them as whatever I want - they're just ther to look cool.

BYE

I've been an Anglina Jolie to GW's orphans for quite some time now (check my sig), in the past I looked at GW's failings as opportunities to expand my games with all kinds of lost children (Squats, Zoats, Rapiers and so on) however as my interest in 40k wanes these things are the first to take a hit as my interest in 'roughing it' decreases.

Although it's possible to build a Spase Mareenz (Oops, am I out of fashion now? – Ostracised by geeks, is there anything lower?) army around my Deathwatch it's not guaranteed that such a combined arms list will still exist when the Inquisition codex is rewritten so I'm unwilling to go down that route. I think they'll stay in a box for a while, time is on my side.

whitedragon wrote:It's easier to get frustrated, and then get your "fix" from the other "dealers" out there.

That it is, although it always feels better to buy more troops because you want them rather than your army 'needs' them. As with all addictions it always feels better when you tell yourself you choose to do it.

@Death by Monkeys: I never did get them fully painted, thanks for the offer.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:Not really, it just means I'll Ebay my now useless Deathwatch Marines and spend the proceeds on some PP or Battlefront stuff. Another win for GW

Err. Why don't you just designate certain of your DW units to count as a couple tactical squads? Or paint up a couple min strength scout squads to use as your troops? Seems drastic to throw the Deathwatch out with the bathwater.

Although, frankly George, if you're Deathwatch are painted as nice as your other work, shoot me some pics and I might be interested in buying them.

No doubt, your Carapace IG w/ West Wind heads are top notch George.

Why not just use them as the new Vets (Regarding DC)?

whitedragon wrote:You just play Space Marines...

This really seems to be the solution to every problem. Bad codex? No codex? Army nerfed? Army no longer supported? No problem! Just play Space Marines.

Booyah Abby!

Uhhhhh.... Forgive my noob-ness. What are the Sternguard and where are the rules for them.

Just asking and curious.

brotherskeeper74 wrote:Uhhhhh.... Forgive my noob-ness. What are the Sternguard and where are the rules for them.

Just asking and curious.

Sternguard are the "shooty" version of the Space Marines Veterans. They are an Elites choice featured in the unreleased Space Marines 5th Edition Codex.

Thx

whitedragon wrote:Booyah Abby!

Ha!

More like "Boo-hoo Abby!"

Good riddance to a craptastic unit, Atleast we can now hope they do some proper rules for them and some better mini's Its all win win as far as I can see.

and before people start saying they will now have a useless army they can still use the DW as normal marines.

beef wrote:
and before people start saying they will now have a useless army they can still use the DW as normal marines.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

whitedragon wrote:You just play Space Marines...

This really seems to be the solution to every problem. Bad codex? No codex? Army nerfed? Army no longer supported? No problem! Just play Space Marines.

Classic!

beef wrote:Good riddance to a craptastic unit, Atleast we can now hope they do some proper rules for them and some better mini's

Now, now, Deathwatch were perfectly fine for a pre-Codex: Daemonhunters approach toward Chamber Militant Allies. They had their single entry, and it was pretty decent, with lots of sexy options compared to ordinary Marines. Once the DH got their book (a badly-considered decision and approach, IMO) the bar was raised considerably. Which is why Inquisition is now stuck in a rut.

Single-Chapter Chamber Militants like Deathwatch and Grey Knights should be ultra-rare in the 40k universe. As a Chapter, each is a whopping 1000 Marines strong. Nominal structure is 5 Terminators or 10 Marines, giving 200 Termie squads or 100 Kill Teams. And that's assuming no battle losses (Ha!), nobody in reserves, nobody in training, despite standard Astartes practice to have 40% in Reserve and 10% in training. Spread that across the Imperium, and the numbers show that they're distributed so widely that it would be a truly exceptional to see more than 1 such unit in any given area.

So it'll be interesting to see how GW moves forward. I'm guessing that DW and GK get trimmed back considerably to better match the fluff, and that full forces move to Apocalypse. Ideally, GW provides Deathwatch and GK Datasheets in the Inquisition Codex as Appendices - if GW is going to move armies to Apocalypse-only, at least make it easy for the player!


Model-wise, the old metal Deathwatch shoulderpads are fine. Better, IMO, than the plastics. The DW heads and Bolters are crap, but eh, GW has done worse.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Single-Chapter Chamber Militants like Deathwatch and Grey Knights should be ultra-rare in the 40k universe. As a Chapter, each is a whopping 1000 Marines strong.

Uh, Dark Angels are a whopping 1000 Marines strong too. And they aren't spread out in individual squads across a bunch of different Inquisitor armies. So wouldn't it be rarer to see Dark Angels across the battlefield from you than Deathwatch?

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Single-Chapter Chamber Militants like Deathwatch and Grey Knights should be ultra-rare in the 40k universe. As a Chapter, each is a whopping 1000 Marines strong.

Uh, Dark Angels are a whopping 1000 Marines strong too. And they aren't spread out in individual squads across a bunch of different Inquisitor armies. So wouldn't it be rarer to see Dark Angels across the battlefield from you than Deathwatch?

I agree. Any single given chapter is going to only be at no more than 6 different locations fighting, this assumes all battle companies deployed (there are of course exceptions). While with Deathwatch or Grey Knights they are deployed in many smaller battle contingents, as many as 100 different theaters of combat deployed in a support role. Also unlike a normal Space Marine chapter Deathwatch and Grey Knights don't hold reserves companies, so a full deployment is more common. For example in the case of the Deathwatch to maintain a full chapter strength they only need one marine from each chapter, requesting veterans from the different chapters sworn to support them, if one marine dies they simply request another who will also be of a veteran standing, making all Space Marine Chpater sworn to support the Deathwatch their reserve.

Both Grey Knights and Deathwatch because of their ties to the Inquisition received dispensation from the normal Index Astares structure and dictates. This is because they are at the disposal of the Inquisition which with in its mandates, as handed down by the emperor, specifically allow the Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus it to maintain them.

If the DW ever get specifically revisited they will probably be multi-part metal miniatures done in the same vein as the different SM veterans.

The ones that benefited most from Deathwatch were definitely the IG players fielding them. IG have never had a good shooty and good close combat unit and relative to what is available in the IG codex, DW are better.

I wasn't aware that Deathwatch were organized into chapters or even subject to the Codex since they're technically part of the Inquisition. The Marines that make up the Deathwatch are "on loan" from the donating chapters and farmed out in squads by the Ordo Xenos to assist Inquisitors in emergencies.

They aren't, there were two teams (20 space marines?) active during the whole third battle for Armageddon. Whole armies of Deathwatch are highly unlikely.

I didn't see any indication that Sternguard replace the Deathwatch thematically.

I think the unit is definitely a nod to players who want to use Deathwatch units in their SM army until an Inquisitorial codex ever comes out.


One thing that was a surprise to me about the Sternguard is that they have *all* types of ammo and can choose which one to fire each round!

Of course they are something like 25 points a model or something crazy like that, so I suppose they deserve it.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Uh, Dark Angels are a whopping 1000 Marines strong too. And they aren't spread out in individual squads across a bunch of different Inquisitor armies. So wouldn't it be rarer to see Dark Angels across the battlefield from you than Deathwatch?

You can't win, but there are alternatives to fighting.

BYE

yakface wrote:
Of course they are something like 25 points a model or something crazy like that, so I suppose they deserve it.

Considering regular DW are 25 with a fixed ammo choice, 1 attack (but have True Grit), and less Ld, it is a good deal. Plus Sternguard get Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads. Then again, DW can always Deep Strike if without a transport.

25 points doesn't seem so bad to me. Gets Hot! being a rule for one of their ammo type seems like a half-hearted way of balancing them, but 25 points isn't out of whack IMO.

BYE

George Spiggott wrote:They aren't, there were two teams (20 space marines?) active during the whole third battle for Armageddon. Whole armies of Deathwatch are highly unlikely.

Looking at the OOB for Armageddon, the Adeptus Astartes had something like 150 Companies active, and several Chapters fielded 9 (or more) Companies:
- Black Dragons (9)
- Celebrants (10)
- Celestial Lions (10)
- Exorcists (12!)
- Mortifactors (10)
- Omega Marines (9)
- Relictors (10)
These Chapters were effectively fully-committed to Armageddon, with many fielding their Reserve *and* Training Companies. If any of these were to have been wiped from the field, the Chapter would have been effectively destroyed, to rebuild from scratch. Armageddon is a *BIG* deal.

Now, we turn to Ordo Xenos:
- 2 Kill Teams

That's right, out of their entire Chamber Militant, Ordo Xenos didn't field much more than 20 Deathwatch Marines, with perhaps a single Librarian in command.

If that is the Ordo Xenos response to perhaps the largest Xenos threat to face the Imperium in recent memory, one has to be rather skeptical of any claim that Ordo Xenos could ever muster in quantity for anything else.

Otherwise, it begs the question why they didn't have more of a presence at Armageddon. Was Ghaz not a sufficient Xenos threat to warrant *more* Kill Teams that are notionally "expert" at this sort of thing?

Its important to realize, as its been pointed out that the Ordo Xenos doesn't wage wars against what are perceived as conventional alien races. They catalog all aliens, standing guards over the resting places of past Xenos threats and provide support in major conflicts. In the past when different Gamesday speakers have been asked about the Deathwatch and an Ordo Xenos Codex, they response has been fairly consistent; that the Deathwatch assist with most of these major alien encroachments but what they actually amass to fight are the bigger Cthullu-esque aliens or aliens capable of telepathically dominating a populace. That they are a more specialized force than to just fight the average Tyranid or Ork.
It is similar to how the Grey Knights fight Chaos, they don't fight all chaos they specialize against daemons. Sisters of Battle don't fight all chaos, they specialize to fight telepaths and witches.

So yes the Deathwatch only contributed a minor force to Armageddon, but thats because that isn't their mandate and it exemplifies an important distinction. As big as the fight for Armageddon was the Deathwatch have bigger things to deal with.

John casually forgets (or should I say carefully omits) the 1st Battle for Armageddon where a whole company of Grey Knights showed up as an army.

He doesn't like the idea of the Chambers Militant showing up in any sort of force... well... except for the SoBs. They're an exception because... well... they just are damn it! Ask Jonny. He knows why they're an exception (or should I say why he thinks they're an exception).

BYE

aka_mythos wrote:Its important to realize, as its been pointed out that the Ordo Xenos doesn't wage wars against what are perceived as conventional alien races. They catalog all aliens, standing guards over the resting places of past Xenos threats and provide support in major conflicts. In the past when different Gamesday speakers have been asked about the Deathwatch and an Ordo Xenos Codex, they response has been fairly consistent; that the Deathwatch assist with most of these major alien encroachments but what they actually amass to fight are the bigger Cthullu-esque aliens or aliens capable of telepathically dominating a populace.

So yes the Deathwatch only contributed a minor force to Armageddon, but thats because that isn't their mandate and it exemplifies an important distinction. As big as the fight for Armageddon was the Deathwatch have bigger things to deal with.

So either the Deathwatch don't fight at all, they only fight in =Inquisitor= skirmish, or they fight in "save the universe" situations. But they don't bother to fight against "ordinary" Xenos, so they don't need to be represented in 40k beyond the lone Kill Team or two.

OK. Based on that, it's perfectly OK to relegate massed Deathwatch to Apocalypse-only events, where they can join the LatD and GSC and Harlie armies alongside Ambulls and Zoats.

JohnHwangDD wrote:...where they can join the LatD ...

You just love twisting the knife don't you, almost as much as I enjoy the fact that you can't see my posts.

BYE

Thats not what I said. Don't put word in my mouth.

I said yes they fight as mass forces.

They do excel at fighting Xenos but their mandate is for fighting things that are a bigger or unorthodox threats that might go beyond a direct Ork invasion.

They're purpose is to:
A) catalog Aliens, the threats they might pose, the technology they poses
B) Watch over the dark places where big xenos threats have been known to awaken from
C) Fight the Xenos threats that traditional military force would be ill equipped to fight.

Its within the scale of an average 40k game to deal with the sort of threats the Deathwatch would be called to deal with. Examples would include:
A) Xenos with mind control capabilities that has taken over a system government.
B) An alien terror that is awakening, the Necron is the Ordo Xenos' biggest blunder.
C) Humans fighting alongside a xenos race.

It is that the Ordo Xenos fight the unorthodox xenos threat. It is no different than how the Ordo Hereticus or Ordo Malleus fight the unorthodox chaos threats.

How can you say that a potent military force in the universe belong in the smallest most detailed game or the largest scaled variant of 40k but not the core game itself? The Inquisitor game doesn't allow for full squads of Deathwatch and isn't a skirmish game intended for military conflicts and the Apocalypse scaled games operate outside the scale that an elite strike force would be practical relative to giant war machines.

40k is intended for play with armies as small as 500 pts to and as much as 2999 pts, that is about two squads of marines and a commander all the way up to about a full battle company, that scale is the scale at which Deathwatch, Grey Knights, or Sisters of Battle would be amassed. It is beyond that scale that their specialization would be a mott point relative to the larger warmachines. GW's lack of support of the Inquisition in Apocalypse actually shows that its at that larger scale battle that the inquisition doesn't really fit.

You might not believe the Inquisition and by association the Grey Knights, Sister of Battles, and Deathwatch belong in 40k, but GW does and that they are here to stay. It might not be in this form but they are here in 40k now and those forces are here to stay.

Mythos, c'mon man, we've been over this.

You can't fight a wall by running into it. The only way to fight a wall is to walk away so it can't hit you.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:John casually forgets (or should I say carefully omits) the 1st Battle for Armageddon where a whole company of Grey Knights showed up as an army.

How is the number of Grey Knights fielded relevant to the number of Deathwatch fielded? They're totally different organisations.

His actual argument is that the Chambers Militant should not be represented as an actual force, but as a generic single Elites choice in their parent list.

So you would not be able to field a Deathwatch or a Grey Knight army because they shouldn't be fielded as armies. Ever. Of course, he makes an exception for Sisters because he likes them, no other reason.

It's a double standard.

All three should be part of a unified Inquisitorial Codex with multiple options per Chamber Militant. It's not hard.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:All three should be part of a unified Inquisitorial Codex with multiple options per Chamber Militant. It's not hard.

I can agree with that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:His actual argument is that the Chambers Militant should not be represented as an actual force, but as a generic single Elites choice in their parent list.

So you would not be able to field a Deathwatch or a Grey Knight army because they shouldn't be fielded as armies. Ever. Of course, he makes an exception for Sisters because he likes them, no other reason.

I would argue the opposite. Grey Knights should be represented as an entire army in 40k while Sisters should be represented as a generic single Elites choice and only appear as an army in Apocalypse. Why you ask? For the same reason that Chaos Daemons are an entire army in 40k while LatD are Apocalypse-only.

aka_mythos wrote:Thats not what I said. Don't put word in my mouth.

I said yes they fight as mass forces.

They do excel at fighting Xenos but their mandate is for fighting things that are a bigger or unorthodox threats that might go beyond a direct Ork invasion.


How can you say that a potent military force in the universe belong in the smallest most detailed game or the largest scaled variant of 40k but not the core game itself?


40k is intended for play with armies as small as 500 pts to and as much as 2999 pts, that is about two squads of marines and a commander all the way up to about a full battle company, that scale is the scale at which Deathwatch, Grey Knights, or Sisters of Battle would be amassed. It is beyond that scale that their specialization would be a mott point relative to the larger warmachines. GW's lack of support of the Inquisition in Apocalypse actually shows that its at that larger scale battle that the inquisition doesn't really fit.

You might not believe the Inquisition and by association the Grey Knights, Sister of Battles, and Deathwatch belong in 40k, but GW does and that they are here to stay. It might not be in this form but they are here in 40k now and those forces are here to stay.

Don't you put words in my mouth then, either.

Currently, there are no rules for DW to fight en masse. And your continue to give reasons why Deathwatch don't fight the "regular" Xenos of 40k (Orks, Eldar, Nids, Tau). So explain to me why Deathwatch need rules to be fielded en masse against opponents that they don't fight?

If they really are a potent military force, they'd be more effective than Sternguard rules-wise, or have more impact on Armageddon Fluff-wise.

According to the rulebook, 40k is intended to be played by armies of 1500 pts, and remains "proper" for small variances from 1000 to 2000 pts. 40k can be played with more or less, just as WFB can. It's possible. It just doesn't feel like the same game.


Now, let me be clear:
- Sisters belong in 40k as an army. They've been around as an army with a Codex since 2E.
- Grey Knights belong in 40k as individual units, going back to before RT. And per RoC, they're valid as an Apocalypse army against Chaos.
- Deathwatch are the n00bs of the Inquistion, and don't deserve to be more than a single unit entry.
So yeah, SoB should stay, and GK and DW can stay. I just don't think that GK or DW should stay on as an army, when there are far larger and more common forces that could use the effort required in creating and maintaining Codices.

For the same effort required to make DW into an actual army, GW could do 2 (or 3) Ruinous Powers books. There are lots more WE / DG / EC players who'd like a Chaos book, compared to the handful of DW players out there. For the same effort in updating GK, GW could update IG and SW. Again, there are a lot more IG and SW players compared to GK players.

Heck, I'd be willing to see DE get a little love before DW, and we all know *that* ain't gonna happen...

Sternguard? Are they Sirius? (Little joke there.)

bugswarm wrote:Sternguard? Are they Sirius? (Little joke there.)

That was bad, Bugs...good to see you around, btw.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:His actual argument is that the Chambers Militant should not be represented as an actual force, but as a generic single Elites choice in their parent list.

So you would not be able to field a Deathwatch or a Grey Knight army because they shouldn't be fielded as armies. Ever. Of course, he makes an exception for Sisters because he likes them, no other reason.

I would argue the opposite. Grey Knights should be represented as an entire army in 40k while Sisters should be represented as a generic single Elites choice and only appear as an army in Apocalypse. Why you ask? For the same reason that Chaos Daemons are an entire army in 40k while LatD are Apocalypse-only.

Lost and the Damned And Sisters of Battle both belong in all scales of 40k; the LatD simply aren't allowed in tournaments, I know people who still use them to play. SoB belong simply because they're about as number as much as Space Marines do. LatD are not an army in Apocalypse simply because they simply don't have any miniatures; at this point GW has just said if you want to do LatD to simply use the IG codex, effectively giving anyone playing an IG force the option of being LatD by simply choosing some chaos models to partner up with in an Apocalypse game. Also if you're playing something as flexible with the rules and army lists as Apocalypse what stops a person from using the Codex Eye of Terror.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Thats not what I said. Don't put word in my mouth.
I said yes they fight as mass forces.
They do excel at fighting Xenos but their mandate is for fighting things that are a bigger or unorthodox threats that might go beyond a direct Ork invasion.

How can you say that a potent military force in the universe belong in the smallest most detailed game or the largest scaled variant of 40k but not the core game itself?

40k is intended for play with armies as small as 500 pts to and as much as 2999 pts, that is about two squads of marines and a commander all the way up to about a full battle company, that scale is the scale at which Deathwatch, Grey Knights, or Sisters of Battle would be amassed. It is beyond that scale that their specialization would be a mott point relative to the larger warmachines. GW's lack of support of the Inquisition in Apocalypse actually shows that its at that larger scale battle that the inquisition doesn't really fit.

You might not believe the Inquisition and by association the Grey Knights, Sister of Battles, and Deathwatch belong in 40k, but GW does and that they are here to stay. It might not be in this form but they are here in 40k now and those forces are here to stay.

Don't you put words in my mouth then, either.

What words did I put in your mouth?

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Currently, there are no rules for DW to fight en masse. And your continue to give reasons why Deathwatch don't fight the "regular" Xenos of 40k (Orks, Eldar, Nids, Tau). So explain to me why Deathwatch need rules to be fielded en masse against opponents that they don't fight?

Well actually there were. The Killteam rules allowed you to alternately field a Space Marine army in which any model in any HQ, Elite, Troops may be upgraded to a Deathwatch member and given the special ammunition available to them. That sure sounds like rules for a full army, not all that unique but it is an army none the less.

Just because it isn't their mandate to fight full out invasions doesn't mean they don't fight en mass. They do fight "regular" Xenos but they deal with the Heresy of the xenos, they fight the element of xenos that corrupt, such as Tau who have forced the greater good onto humans and are now using human auxiliaries, or Tyranids that have utilized genestealer hybrids, or orks who have allowed Diggas into their ranks.

Presumably the Deathwatch would get the same treatment as Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle, in the form of adversary rules; the adversary rules are only included in both of those codex books to provided the additional rules to create the interesting narrative to help the narrow minded justify using those armies. Ordo Xenos adversaries would simply be a unique monstrous Xenos, some xenos mercenary options, and Xeno allied humans.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
If they really are a potent military force, they'd be more effective than Sternguard rules-wise, or have more impact on Armageddon Fluff-wise.

And if those marine chapters were so potent they wouldn't have needed to deploy reserves.... Armageddon just isn't the sort of fight they fight. See above.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
According to the rulebook, 40k is intended to be played by armies of 1500 pts, and remains "proper" for small variances from 1000 to 2000 pts. 40k can be played with more or less, just as WFB can. It's possible. It just doesn't feel like the same game.

Do you moonlight as a rules lawyer? My friends and I play 500 pt games and its fun. Also GW escalation leagues start with 500 pts, are you telling me for two weeks people are being told to play the game incorrectly? I think it proper to quote the rulebook: "There really is no single right way to do things, so go with whatever suits you best."

The number of models played in sub-1000 pts games are more akin to previous editions if there is an insistence on larger games its because GW would like us to spend more money. This is really the first edition where the core rulebook as no mention of games below 1500 pts.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Now, let me be clear:
- Sisters belong in 40k as an army. They've been around as an army with a Codex since 2E.
- Grey Knights belong in 40k as individual units, going back to before RT. And per RoC, they're valid as an Apocalypse army against Chaos.
- Deathwatch are the n00bs of the Inquistion, and don't deserve to be more than a single unit entry.
So yeah, SoB should stay, and GK and DW can stay. I just don't think that GK or DW should stay on as an army, when there are far larger and more common forces that could use the effort required in creating and maintaining Codices.

Grey Knights belong as an army more than ever now that there is a Codex Daemons. They had army rules in RT for an army it was in 2nd Ed they were downgraded

If edition longevity is your main justification for whether an army deserves the high and mighty honor of a codex, under your reason there would never be anything new.
By the fluff Deathwatch predate the founding of the SoB. To call them "n00bs" is elitist (I mean "1337"), you shouldn't think of yourself so highly, people might talk... wait they already do.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
For the same effort required to make DW into an actual army, GW could do 2 (or 3) Ruinous Powers books. There are lots more WE / DG / EC players who'd like a Chaos book, compared to the handful of DW players out there. For the same effort in updating GK, GW could update IG and SW. Again, there are a lot more IG and SW players compared to GK players.

I think a single Ruinous Power book covering all four is really all thats needed especially with the larger size Codex: Space Marines is done in. The same could be easily done with the Non-codex marines.

They're are more IG and SW players than GK players because GK are not as old as a fully supported army and they are all metal making them cost prohibitive.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Heck, I'd be willing to see DE get a little love before DW, and we all know *that* ain't gonna happen...

DE are next year. Best bet for DW in the unified Inquisition book is at best in 2010 or 2011.

aka_mythos wrote:DE are next year. Best bet for DW in the unified Inquisition book is at best in 2010 or 2011.

Here's to hoping!

I've been waiting to do an Ordo Xenos force for a long, long time now...

aka_mythos wrote:

Lots of stuff

Thank you for posting that.

malfred wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

Lots of stuff

Thank you for posting that.

Thank you for summarising that.

dam you can bitch way to mutch in 3ed dere was a codex aproved for 3 or 4 chapeters of lost and the damed.

3rd edition back of the rulebook codices FTW. Best games I ever played.

Wow, long reply. Looks like we're killing a lot of digital trees!

Also, I think we have issues with what we really mean when we write...

aka_mythos wrote:Lost and the Damned And Sisters of Battle both belong in all scales of 40k; the LatD simply aren't allowed in tournaments, I know people who still use them to play. SoB belong simply because they're about as number as much as Space Marines do.

LatD are not an army in Apocalypse simply because they simply don't have any miniatures; at this point GW has just said if you want to do LatD to simply use the IG codex, effectively giving anyone playing an IG force the option of being LatD by simply choosing some chaos models to partner up with in an Apocalypse game. Also if you're playing something as flexible with the rules and army lists as Apocalypse what stops a person from using the Codex Eye of Terror.

IIRC, by the Fluff, SoB outnumber Marines considerably.

Also, GW very clearly told the LatD players what they could do with their armies: GW actually web-published an Apocalypse Datasheet for LatD, stripping way more than half of the LatD options in the process. Quite frankly, I figured GW to let LatD die of neglect, but publishing an Apocalypse datasheet like that was a real surprise. Methinks someone in GW *really* hates LatD.

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:You might not believe the Inquisition and by association the Grey Knights, Sister of Battles, and Deathwatch belong in 40k, but GW does and that they are here to stay. It might not be in this form but they are here in 40k now and those forces are here to stay.

Don't you put words in my mouth then, either.

What words did I put in your mouth?

Specifically the bit above. I never said that Inquisition, GK, SoB, and DW didn't belong in 40k. I only state that GK, and DW don't belong as full armies in 40k. And by "40k", I mean the main game system. Not "40k universe" like books, Fluff, Inquisitor, or Apocalypse. I'm perfectly content to see the ultra-rare Chambers like GK and DW appear only as individual units, with their larger units reserved for Apocalypse only.

aka_mythos wrote:The Killteam rules allowed you to alternately field a Space Marine army in which any model in any HQ, Elite, Troops may be upgraded to a Deathwatch member and given the special ammunition available to them. That sure sounds like rules for a full army, not all that unique but it is an army none the less.

OK, if that's how you want to define Deathwatch as a "full army", I guess that would be acceptable. When I say "full army", I tend to imagine a full, paper-printed Codex with multiple options for HQ, Elite, Troops, Transport, Fast, and Heavy, along with Special Characters.

aka_mythos wrote:Presumably the Deathwatch would get the same treatment as Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle, in the form of adversary rules; the adversary rules are only included in both of those codex books to provided the additional rules to create the interesting narrative to help the narrow minded justify using those armies.

Oh, God, that would be horrible. Adversary rules are the bane of 40k. If you cost for them, then the force is grossly overpriced against ordinary opponents. If you don't, then they're overpowered against their enemy. Given the massive rules bloat in the Hunters book, less would be so much more.

aka_mythos wrote:Do you moonlight as a rules lawyer? My friends and I play 500 pt games and its fun. Also GW escalation leagues start with 500 pts, are you telling me for two weeks people are being told to play the game incorrectly?

I'm saying that I agree with GW's suggestion that a game of 1500 pts makes for a pleasant experience, and that much larger or smaller games have a very different feel than a 1500-pt game.

aka_mythos wrote:Grey Knights belong as an army more than ever now that there is a Codex Daemons. They had army rules in RT for an army it was in 2nd Ed they were downgraded

By the fluff Deathwatch predate the founding of the SoB.

I have a copy of RoC, thank you. Model-wise GK were just the Termies until DH came out. And yes, I have a squad of the OOP GK Termies. And yes, everything gets downgraded from RT to 2E to 3E+.

By the models and rules, Deathwatch are n00bs.

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
For the same effort required to make DW into an actual army, GW could do 2 (or 3) Ruinous Powers books. There are lots more WE / DG / EC players who'd like a Chaos book, compared to the handful of DW players out there. For the same effort in updating GK, GW could update IG and SW. Again, there are a lot more IG and SW players compared to GK players.

I think a single Ruinous Power book covering all four is really all thats needed especially with the larger size Codex: Space Marines is done in. The same could be easily done with the Non-codex marines.

From a rules standpoint, GW could do Codex: MEQ if they wanted to. But GW wants to sell models, so they purposefully split things up into pieces. Doing a single DE or Ork Codex each decade isn't the business model they want. But as SM and WFB Chaos shows, if you pimp new flavors every year or two, you can sell a lot of stuff.

aka_mythos wrote:They're are more IG and SW players than GK players because GK are not as old as a fully supported army and they are all metal making them cost prohibitive.

Newsflash - IG aren't very well-supported either, despite being the largest Imperial force by far, Fluff-wise.

As for metals being cost-prohibitive, I have to disagree. I have:
- 200+ metal Aspects
- 100+ metal Guardsmen
- 40+ metal Sisters
- 30+ metal Stormtroopers
The very idea that an army being metal precludes collection is rather silly. You simply have a smaller army and collect more slowly.

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Heck, I'd be willing to see DE get a little love before DW, and we all know *that* ain't gonna happen...

DE are next year. Best bet for DW in the unified Inquisition book is at best in 2010 or 2011.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Also, GW very clearly told the LatD players what they could do with their armies

Yes. Yes they did.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Also, GW very clearly told the LatD players what they could do with their armies

Yes. Yes they did.

Wow really? that's doubly harsh when you think how spiky they are.

George Spiggott wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Also, GW very clearly told the LatD players what they could do with their armies

Yes. Yes they did.

Wow really? that's doubly harsh when you think how spiky they are.

Weren't some of them tentacly, because then it would kind of make sense.

JohnHwangDD wrote:GW very clearly told the LatD players what they could do with their armies.

I know! And I still can't sit properly...

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Also, GW very clearly told the LatD players what they could do with their armies: GW actually web-published an Apocalypse Datasheet for LatD, stripping way more than half of the LatD options in the process. Quite frankly, I figured GW to let LatD die of neglect, but publishing an Apocalypse datasheet like that was a real surprise. Methinks someone in GW *really* hates LatD.

The people I play with and I don't really worship at the alter to such a degree that we have to recieve their permission to do things. I think the LatD are just viable now as they were when they originally got rules. Though I do agree with the sentiment that GW has expressed that for the average game they can just be stood in for with IG. I think Apocalypse is great and the flexibility of rules in whats allowed is really how 40k should be, just in the lower point scale.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:You might not believe the Inquisition and by association the Grey Knights, Sister of Battles, and Deathwatch belong in 40k, but GW does and that they are here to stay. It might not be in this form but they are here in 40k now and those forces are here to stay.

Don't you put words in my mouth then, either.

What words did I put in your mouth?

Specifically the bit above. I never said that Inquisition, GK, SoB, and DW didn't belong in 40k. I only state that GK, and DW don't belong as full armies in 40k. And by "40k", I mean the main game system. Not "40k universe" like books, Fluff, Inquisitor, or Apocalypse. I'm perfectly content to see the ultra-rare Chambers like GK and DW appear only as individual units, with their larger units reserved for Apocalypse only.

Thats exactly what I meant with the above. To reiterate and clarify, you might not believe the Inquisition and by association all the chamber militant belong in the average 40k game but GW does, as do I and many others, GW has said they're here to stay.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The Killteam rules allowed you to alternately field a Space Marine army in which any model in any HQ, Elite, Troops may be upgraded to a Deathwatch member and given the special ammunition available to them. That sure sounds like rules for a full army, not all that unique but it is an army none the less.

OK, if that's how you want to define Deathwatch as a "full army", I guess that would be acceptable. When I say "full army", I tend to imagine a full, paper-printed Codex with multiple options for HQ, Elite, Troops, Transport, Fast, and Heavy, along with Special Characters.

Well by the definition you just gave no army was a "full army" till 2nd edition.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Oh, God, that would be horrible. Adversary rules are the bane of 40k. If you cost for them, then the force is grossly overpriced against ordinary opponents. If you don't, then they're overpowered against their enemy. Given the massive rules bloat in the Hunters book, less would be so much more.

I don't really like adversary rules either. I just think that any minuscule equivalent of adversary rules carried over would be supported for them as much as for SoB and GK.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm saying that I agree with GW's suggestion that a game of 1500 pts makes for a pleasant experience, and that much larger or smaller games have a very different feel than a 1500-pt game.

Of course they have a different feel but as long as your not playing against the wrong sort of player any sized game of 40k will be just as pleasant. Some of the best games I've had have been 500 pt games.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I have a copy of RoC, thank you. Model-wise GK were just the Termies until DH came out. And yes, I have a squad of the OOP GK Termies. And yes, everything gets downgraded from RT to 2E to 3E+. By the models and rules, Deathwatch are n00bs.

And back then tyranids were just genestealers and zoats. Back in rogue trader an army could be just a handful of models, 3 squad of GK and a Daemonhunter Inquisitor was an army. Not the best army but as much as much an army as some other things that are now bigger. Everything has to start somewhere and ruling out Grey Knights because they're representation changed and Deathwatch cause they're "n00bs" creates an air of an elite attitude that would force the game in to a state of stagnation in which nothing new is ever added.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:They're are more IG and SW players than GK players because GK are not as old as a fully supported army and they are all metal making them cost prohibitive.

Newsflash - IG aren't very well-supported either, despite being the largest Imperial force by far, Fluff-wise.

As for metals being cost-prohibitive, I have to disagree. I have:
- 200+ metal Aspects
- 100+ metal Guardsmen
- 40+ metal Sisters
- 30+ metal Stormtroopers
The very idea that an army being metal precludes collection is rather silly. You simply have a smaller army and collect more slowly.

IG are well supported, they're just not well represented by the rules at this time, but that will change shortly.

Just because you can afford multiple armies or even multiple armies nearly entirely metal armies doesn't mean everyone else can. The scale of a 40k game has been creeping higher and higher with each edition. Fully metal armies can end up 20-30% more than a predominantly plastic army; in a game that has a high price tag already that 20-30% is cost prohibitive for some people. Not everyone is as fortunate as you or me. Your reasoning would throw the fundamentals of micro-economics in the trash.

Back on topic though...

While Deathwatch get a tip of the hat with Sternguard in the new Space Marine codex, they aren't the same thing. GW tournament ruling on this is really just to move away from article based rule sets and less a matter of the implications specifically on the Deathwatch. Deathwatch and Grey Knights will inevitably get a revisit and will have more than just a single unit choice. No one can really know what form that revisit will take beyond a fuller support. We wait, we see.

aka_mythos wrote:[R]uling out Grey Knights ... and Deathwatch ... creates an air of an elite attitude that would force the game in to a state of stagnation in which nothing new is ever added.

I would've thought it obvious that that's what DD wants. He is the one who suggested that all GKs be rolled into a 'Generic Grey Knight' entry in the next Inquisitorial Codex.

Remember, he likes the fact that Daemons are generic in Chaos Armies. He's really happy that LatD isn't an army now. Moreoever, he likes to remind us of this at every opportunity (in the same way I like to remind people here just how stupid I think GW is, at every opportunity).

But by all means Mythos, keep going. I'll slink back into the shadows, 'cause it's far more fun when he can't see me talk.

BYE

aka_mythos wrote:I think the LatD are just viable now as they were when they originally got rules. Though I do agree with the sentiment that GW has expressed that for the average game they can just be stood in for with IG. I think Apocalypse is great and the flexibility of rules in whats allowed is really how 40k should be, just in the lower point scale.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. I mostly play Apocalyse now, haven't play an actualy tournament in years, so "40k gaming" is starting to become synonymous with "Apocalypse gaming". And that's a good thing, IMO.

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I never said that Inquisition, GK, SoB, and DW didn't belong in 40k. I only state that GK, and DW don't belong as full armies in 40k. And by "40k", I mean the main game system. Not "40k universe" like books, Fluff, Inquisitor, or Apocalypse. I'm perfectly content to see the ultra-rare Chambers like GK and DW appear only as individual units, with their larger units reserved for Apocalypse only.

Thats exactly what I meant with the above. To reiterate and clarify, you might not believe the Inquisition and by association all the chamber militant belong in the average 40k game but GW does, as do I and many others, GW has said they're here to stay.

OK, though GW never said what form they should take as they stay, so I'm thinking a limited form is more appropriate for certain factions.

aka_mythos wrote:Well by the definition you just gave no army was a "full army" till 2nd edition.

True. The Codex concept didn't come together until then. But I'd count RoC as a solid predecessor.

aka_mythos wrote:I don't really like adversary rules either. I just think that any minuscule equivalent of adversary rules carried over would be supported for them as much as for SoB and GK.

Of course, that means even more stuff in the pending Inquisition book. Really, the thing is becoming totally unworkable in light of more recent Codex designs.

aka_mythos wrote:Some of the best games I've had have been 500 pt games.

Mine, too. Early 3rd Ed was a great time to play.

aka_mythos wrote:And back then tyranids were just genestealers and zoats. Back in rogue trader an army could be just a handful of models, 3 squad of GK and a Daemonhunter Inquisitor was an army. Not the best army but as much as much an army as some other things that are now bigger. Everything has to start somewhere and ruling out Grey Knights because they're representation changed and Deathwatch cause they're "n00bs" creates an air of an elite attitude that would force the game in to a state of stagnation in which nothing new is ever added.

Of course, RT was just a little a skirmish game, so that made sense. 2E started to grow it, and 3E completed the process of army-fying things. Per my other discussion thread, I think 40k has nearly reached a "state of stagnation" due to saturation of the release schedule with existing armies.

aka_mythos wrote:Just because you can afford multiple armies or even multiple armies nearly entirely metal armies doesn't mean everyone else can. The scale of a 40k game has been creeping higher and higher with each edition. Fully metal armies can end up 20-30% more than a predominantly plastic army; in a game that has a high price tag already that 20-30% is cost prohibitive for some people. Not everyone is as fortunate as you or me. Your reasoning would throw the fundamentals of micro-economics in the trash.

I would disagree with this in many ways, and I'm going to use automobiles as the analogy basis. I can afford multiple cars, just like most other families do. Car prices (cars, service, fuel) have been climbing every year, but people still manage to afford cars. New cars on the market have a price ratio of well over 20:1 ($200k USD for a Rolls Royce vs $10k for a microcompact), and people accept this. If you're on a budget you don't buy a Rolls Royce. And you certainly don't entertain notions of motorsport (a weekend's event can easily burn $1k in tires alone). So budget players have to make more decisions or shop more carefully / buy less over time. If you're really on a budget, you should probably take the bus (i.e. play Specialist Games skirmish) instead of buying a car (i.e. play 40k Apocalypse).

40k has never been a cheap hobby, never will be. Perhaps we should poll, because I'll be the majority of the 40k players are making above average money. Otherwise, you simply can't afford to play 40k (or golf, or motorsport).

Also, speaking from experience, fully metal armies can end up 50% to 80% more than plastic (e.g. 10 "Collectors" metal IG is $35 vs 20 plastic IG for $35). They don't play any differently, but they do cost quite a bit more. That's why I strongly advocate for plastic greatcoat guard, fully-masked - to give a 3rd alternative for players to get in and play.

I think right now in some circles basic 40k games are over competitive to such a degree that apocalypse had to codify the inherent flexibility of a tabletop game that had so largely gone ignored by those overly competitive.

Some form of adversary rules doesn't necessarily mean significant inclusions in an Inquisition Codex. Those rules may end up simply take the form of upgrades your opponent might be able to take. The new space marine codex is something no one saw coming; its larger with many more special rules and new units than anyone would have thought based on other current codices. GW reversed their general direction with the newer codices and they can do it again just as easily.

Stagnation is a decline in growth. To some degree you're right that it is the result of an over saturated release schedule. The important thing is that growth demands the addition of new things, armie, rulesets, miniatures, scenarios, etc. DW and the Inquisition are such an example of growth. What we actually have with 40k is more a case of too much growth too quickly, out pacing GW's ability to keep up support.

Well car purchases allow you to take out a loan, thats how most people afford new cars. As far as I know GW doesn't allow a payment structure.

40k isn't cheap;GW derives most of its profit by making impulse sales to hobbyists but the higher the price the less likely to make that purchase. A half squad of Grey Knights costs $30 vs $20 for a space marine combat squad. Your recommendation is to buy in smaller increments, maybe blisters instead of box sets. That brings the price for the same squad to $42, which overall cuts more people out. Supply and demand dictate that with the relatively fixed demand and an inelastic spending power of the main demographic a 30% price difference will cut out nearly 30%, while the 60% price difference will cut out close to 60% of the people who'd otherwise purchase it; this is relative to the people who can purchase a basic combat squad box. All this holds true because of the presence of cheaper alternatives to the predominately metal armies, in the form of the plastic and mixed metal armies. So while an individual may be able to impulse buy that blister instead of the boxset, in the long run they will purchase less because of the overall cumulative price. Its simply the case that some can not afford a predominantly metal army.

Hey all. Long time reader, first time poster.

For what its worth, I agree with mythos completely.

I field a pure DH/GK army on a regular basis and whilst they obviously aren't a particularly easy or competitive army to play I would hate to see them relegated to Apocolapsye.

The argument for this demotion was that they are 'ultra-rare' and would therefore be better suited as inducted allies in other Imperial forces. I disgree whole-heartedly. I may be wrong here (so bear with me) but, firstly, Grey Knights are usually (according to fluff) only depolyed to crucial engagements. Engagements one would assume that normal Imperial forces cannot or will not deal with (warp breachs etc). When they tackle these threats (which they do 99% of the time) they do this alone. If anyone else joins them, it is usually Inquisitorial forces. Secondly, they are practically a myth within the Imperium. Most mistake them for normal Space Marines of an unknown chapter. This secrecy is used against them in the first GK novel. I believe this to be further evidence that they usually operate alone.

I am bias however, but just my feelings towards it .

As for DW, I hate what GW have done with the new SM codex. The creation of Sternguard seems to have only money making motivation. The fact that DW was elite and rarely used in-game was indication of their rarity and with every chapter now owning a 'better' version of them, simply makes a mockery of their place in the 40k universe. The same can be said about the GK's compared to the new marines. Laughable, but then, thats a different topic entirely.

Just my $0.02 anyway.

Sternguard replaste tyranit hunters from the ultra's

Orisis wrote:The fact that DW was elite and rarely used in-game was indication of their rarity and with every chapter now owning a 'better' version of them, simply makes a mockery of their place in the 40k universe.

Mockery? Are you serious? Step back a second and look at the situation again. It doesn't really make any sense fluff-wise to field DW with a SM army. It's like saying, "Hey, Space Marines! The Empire needs you to fight some aliens and to help make your mission a success, we're gonna send you a squad of Space Marines." See? It's redundant. Deathwatch have an actual roll to fill in DH armies (or as allies to IG) and that's where I saw them fielded most. The creation of Sternguard appears to be designed to give the SM player more reason to take and field Veterans in their army (as well as sell more bits).

Consider this. After a couple a thousand years of sending guys off to play with the Inquisition and having them bring back cool toys, where do you think those toys are going to wind up? Veterans, right? Even if you're talking about a Vet Sergeant from a Tactical Company, he's eventually going to leave his squad and join the First Company (that's the way the system usually works). You think he'll want to take his cool pea-shooter with him? Also, what happens when the guy with the cool gun dies? Does the Chapter give the gun back to the Inquisition or do they hand it off to some other deserving Veteran who's proven his worth to the Chapter a hundred-fold? I'm sorry if you disagree but I really like the Sternguard concept as a replacement to the old "Veteran Squad".

aka_mythos wrote:Some form of adversary rules doesn't necessarily mean significant inclusions in an Inquisition Codex. Those rules may end up simply take the form of upgrades your opponent might be able to take.

If so, you force Inquisition to be a scenario game, rather than a standard game. That's bad from a tournament standpoint.

aka_mythos wrote:Stagnation is a decline in growth. ... What we actually have with 40k is more a case of too much growth too quickly, out pacing GW's ability to keep up support.

I don't see that so much - GW continues to have something new each month. And there are enough release slots to maintain 40k for the duration of 5th Edition. It's just that GW isn't supporting things the way that certain vocal people might desire.

aka_mythos wrote:Well car purchases allow you to take out a loan, thats how most people afford new cars. As far as I know GW doesn't allow a payment structure.

Sure it does. And like cars, you can always buy GW used at a discount from current retail. The big advantage with GW is that you have the option to buy the army piecemeal -and- you own whatever you purchase. In a car loan situation, you are locked into buying the *entire* car -and- you don't own the car until the entire loan is paid in full - that's why they can repo your car if you miss the last payment.

That is, if GW army buying was like car loans, you'd make your entire 2000 pt list, and you'd pay it off in fixed installments every month. If the Rules, Codex, or metagame change partway through, you're stuck with the list. And if you wanted to change, you'd have to return the entire lot and likely pay a financing surcharge / penalty fee for breaking the contract.

aka_mythos wrote:40k isn't cheap;

GW derives most of its profit by making impulse sales to hobbyists

Your recommendation is to buy in smaller increments, maybe blisters instead of box sets

Supply and demand dictate ...

So while an individual may be able to impulse buy that blister instead of the boxset, in the long run they will purchase less because of the overall cumulative price.

Its simply the case that some can not afford a predominantly metal army.

Totally agreed. 40k isn't cheap. It is a luxury in every sense of the word. It just has a low bar to entry.

I also agree that GW makes most of their profit on impulse sales. Just like any other gaming-related seller. And I don't begrudge them those profits. However, I'm willing to do my homework to get better pricing on non-impulse buys. So I am a low-profit customer for them. But them's the breaks.

If you can't afford to buy in bulk, you buy smaller and pay more. That's just like everything else in the world. At a restaurant, you can buy wine by the glass, split, or full bottle. If you end up drinking a full bottle's worth of wine, you always pay the most by the glass and the least by the bottle. Same with beer by the pitcher, or any other bulk buy. So GW is doing the right thing with highest blister prices and lowest army / Apocalypse boxes.

Supply and demand dictate that people who can't afford luxuries don't spend their money on them. If you can't afford caviar or Rolls Royce, you don't buy it.

In the long run, if they have a hobby budget, they will get less stuff for the same amount of spend. That's their fault, not mine or GWs. If they had some micro-economic sense, they'd plan their purchases and get more for their dollar. But that's the price of not planning and requiring instant gratification. I really appreciate those guys, because their whimsical spending allows me to derive maximum benefit from my delayed gratification.

And if some can't afford metal armies, that's OK. I can't afford a Rolls Royce. They can play something else. Or shift priorities from cigarettes to minis. Or save their lunch money. If they have a cheap $2 lunch instead of a nice $5 lunch, they save $3/day. Over 250 working days, that's $750 per year. I'm pretty sure one can buy a mostly metal IG army for $750. Now if they're already eating peanut butter & jelly sandwiches for lunch, the perhaps the high-cost GW hobby isn't for them?

thay realy replase the tyranit hunter the chapter aproved of deathwatch is still dear and can still be juist wath I catcht is that its going to move to de IG codex whit the take that de ig ig is going to be 0-1 like da IA books codexis it leaves a open slote thats need filling.

quietus86 wrote:thay realy replase the tyranit hunter the chapter aproved of deathwatch is still dear and can still be juist wath I catcht is that its going to move to de IG codex whit the take that de ig ig is going to be 0-1 like da IA books codexis it leaves a open slote thats need filling.

Just so you know, I'm calling the Grammar Police as I write this.

Read his sig then delete your post Breotan.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:Read his sig then delete your post Breotan.

BYE

What happens when JohnHwangDD sees something written by H.B.M.C. when someone quotes him?

Orisis wrote:I field a pure DH/GK army on a regular basis and whilst they obviously aren't a particularly easy or competitive army to play I would hate to see them relegated to Apocolapsye.

The argument for this demotion was that they are 'ultra-rare' and would therefore be better suited as inducted allies in other Imperial forces.

But they are ultra-rare. They are only employed in the event of a major warp breach or daemonic incursion - events that happen so infrequently GW wrote an entire codex to cover them.

Alpharius wrote:What happens when JohnHwangDD sees something written by someone he ignores when someone quotes him?

Not much, apparently.

You do understand the concept behind "ignore", right?

And you understand that it's not like you're only ever allowed to ignore one person - you can ignore several people.

So more precisely, it's nothing different from anybody else I might choose to ignore, either by the (ignore) button, or just simply choosing not to respond. The Ignore feature simplifies the process if bypassing those who generate more heat than light, or noise than signal.

Actually I love the fact that DD can't see me. Biggest mistake he ever made was telling me that I was on his ignore list. It's so much more fun knowing that he can't see me.

And as I've said before, an ignore list is the internet's equivalent of sticking fingers in your ears and going 'Lalalala! I can't hear you!' like a friggin' 6 year old. It's a refuge for those that can't face their issues.



BYE

H.B.M.C. is Ninja!

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Orisis wrote:I field a pure DH/GK army on a regular basis and whilst they obviously aren't a particularly easy or competitive army to play I would hate to see them relegated to Apocolapsye.

The argument for this demotion was that they are 'ultra-rare' and would therefore be better suited as inducted allies in other Imperial forces.

But they are ultra-rare. They are only employed in the event of a major warp breach or daemonic incursion - events that happen so infrequently GW wrote an entire codex to cover them.

Population of Imperium: Hundreds of Trillions
Number of Space Marines in the Imperium: 1,000,000 (or 1000 times 1000)

Marines constitute less than .000000001% of the population of the Imperium.
ANY specific chapter represents .000000000001% of the population.

So if the claim that they are rare and should be excluded for GK, that claim would hold just as true of any other specific space marine chapter.

The fluff says that by the end of the 41st millennium the number of these incursions are becoming ever more common. Thus the grey knights in general would also become less uncommon. More importantly its a game about having fun and anything that can add to the fun should be welcome. 40k allows us to create narratives in which the players have the opportunity to play out these very sort of major and potentially cataclysmic events, where they can potentially play out a heroic victory over the forces of chaos.

H.B.M.C. wrote:<<Stuff that H.B.M.C. wrote>>

The IGNORE feature does seem to be a bit pointless...

Anyway, I'm looking forward to fielding the new Veterans, and since the DW appear to be getting the red-headed stepchild treatment from GW for the foreseeable future (and beyond!), I'll gladly use them as a 'counts as' DW too.

So be it!

Unquote me Alpharius! Unquote me!!!

I have to keep my shadowy mystique, and I can't do that if people keep quoting me!!

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:Unquote me Alpharius! Unquote me!!!

I have to keep my shadowy mystique, and I can't do that if people keep quoting me!!

BYE

What is this, a dating service?

A GK would totally see through your mystique.

I was surprised to see that the new Sternguard get ALL the ammo types, and don't have to choose before the game.

They out DW the DW!

Alpharius wrote:I was surprised to see that the new Sternguard get ALL the ammo types, and don't have to choose before the game.

They out DW the DW!

but non of the close combat weapons that makes em les effectif overal.

malfred wrote:A GK would totally see through your mystique.

You are, as always, 100% correct malf.






BYE

quietus86 wrote:

Alpharius wrote:I was surprised to see that the new Sternguard get ALL the ammo types, and don't have to choose before the game.

They out DW the DW!

but non of the close combat weapons that makes em les effectif overal.

That and a lack of captain in the squad are the crux of the matter. Personally I always thought that their should have been a limit on the big close combat weapons but that they needed to be in their none the less. The captain is a big part of their advantage and helps to emphasize their independent effectiveness as a squad; the captain also helps put them closer to the same league as GK.

It does give us an idea of the direction DW will go, with fixed ammo assets that can be switched each turn with trade offs to each and cheaper than current DW for marginal downgrades; beyond that the DW will probably get more when they get revisited (sternguard plus some options).

I haven't played any 5th edition games yet, but, with the push AWAY from close combat and the loss in effectiveness there, wouldn't a more powerful shooty unit be the way to go now?

Yes, but some sort of counter assault capabilities is also good.

Sure, but would that be 'balanced' too?

Maybe at the appropriate points cost, but, they're already pretty pricey.

Maybe an attached IC?

I mean I think with a sm captain attached and with an close combat weapon equipped sgt, you're half way their. I don't think the squad should necessarily have the same unfettered everyone has access to close combat options if upgraded; it'd probably be 0-3 models can take power fist/weapon, lightning claws, etc.

I ast at the gw shop deathwatch is still 100% leageal hq
and yes still a hq.
and I have lookt its 100% sure day replaste the tyranit hunter from ultra marien now any vanilla can use dam.
en te sargent can still take al the gak ge code .

quietus86 wrote:I ast at the gw shop deathwatch is still 100% leageal hq
and yes still a hq.
and I have lookt its 100% sure day replaste the tyranit hunter from ultra marien now any vanilla can use dam.
en te sargent can still take al the gak ge code .

Wow...

I...disagree!

Give him a break guys. We were all young once.

BYE

quietus86 wrote:I ast at the gw shop deathwatch is still 100% leageal hq
and yes still a hq.
and I have lookt its 100% sure day replaste the tyranit hunter from ultra marien now any vanilla can use dam.
en te sargent can still take al the gak ge code .

I asked at the GW shop, Deathwatch is still 100% Legal HQ
and yes, it's still a HQ.
I have looked and it's 100% sure they replace the Tyranid Hunter from Ultra Marines, now any vanilla chapter can use them, and the Sargent can still take all the gear he could.

My best guess!

jip thats it our gw shop army still has deathwatch in dear army as hq

Quietus, after talking with you in PM, I have found you to be a great guy. Really a great guy, so please don't take this as me trying to be an ass to you. Please take it as constructive criticism.

Your English spelling is horrendous as is your syntax (or sentence structure if you prefer).

For someone who lives in England, I am sure you can appreciate when I say that your internet communication has all of the charm of a chav from Brighton knifing me in the back.

Ghent is in Belgium, speaking foreign langauge + Dyslexia is a bad combo.

Opps! My bad!

if you se me in real live.
than my enlgish is beter than my mouther tong.
problem is that I try to use words that I can spell and are reedebal with makes my syntax some what weard.
I speak an read english dutch and french.
siters lives in canade and have english and american friends in real live.
but I get uset to peaple saing my english sucks ( do I use a spelling corector but it cant regognise al my words if you can't read it read it out loud and it wil make more sens )

No problem, as your location and your sig really do explain it all!

quietus86 wrote:if you se me in real live.
than my enlgish is beter than my mouther tong.
problem is that I try to use words that I can spell and are reedebal with makes my syntax some what weard.
I speak an read english dutch and french.
siters lives in canade and have english and american friends in real live.
but I get uset to peaple saing my english sucks ( do I use a spelling corector but it cant regognise al my words if you can't read it read it out loud and it wil make more sens )

Ye man, No worries. One of my best friends is Dyslexic, though he has Audio Dyslexia, rather than visual. It's nothing to be ashamed of, but often times it's hard to distinguish between those being lazy and those with a genuine learning disability (Though I'd rather say you haven't let that learning disability slow you down in the least, being able to read and speak 3 different languages is quite impressive! Kudos!)

Take it easy,

-Red__Thirst-

I've heard the term audio dyslexia before but the symptoms make it seem more like a form of aphasia than dyslexia.

3 different languages is omost standart for whear I em from evry one atliest now's 2 most new franch and dutch or dutch and english.
my girlfriend now's dutch english en german.
I rite completly fonetic so reading it out loud will help