Hello,

I am trying to figure out a way to make my favorite army able to even go to tournements. I would love anybodys ideas on how this can be done. Does anybody have any ideas

Astalado

Why wouldn't they be playable? Use the codex.

With the abilities of the new space Marine codex, Demeon Codex. I see now point to bring an army because I have lost the chance to even be able to play. I have played against the marine and lost every time I fielded with them in 5th addition except for once and thats because the marine player could not make a save to save his life.

Here is some question I would like answer:

How to stop:

1. Space Marine Terminators with Fleet and +2,+3 saves that can do 12-18 assault

2. Space Marine Assault with 18-24 inch Assault

3. First Turn Drop Pod Assault

4. Assault after Drop Pod

5. Flanking Bike Army.

6. Deep Strike Demeon Armies on First Turn.

Astalado wrote:With the abilities of the new space Marine codex, Demeon Codex. I see now point to bring an army because I have lost the chance to even be able to play. I have played against the marine and lost every time I fielded with them in 5th addition except for once and thats because the marine player could not make a save to save his life.

Here is some question I would like answer:

How to stop:

1. Space Marine Terminators with Fleet and +2,+3 saves that can do 12-18 assault

2. Space Marine Assault with 18-24 inch Assault

3. First Turn Drop Pod Assault

4. Assault after Drop Pod

5. Flanking Bike Army.

6. Deep Strike Demeon Armies on First Turn.

1. Termies with Fleet?! I call Shenanigans. But I don't know much about Marines just yet, so maybe...

3/4. They can't assault after deepstriking, so you just shoot 'em up when they land.

5. Stay away from the sides! I dunno about this.

6. Again, those Daemons CANNOT charge after deepstriking. And what are they gonna do in shooting, really? They land, look around a bit, then receive pulse rifles, railguns and missile pods in the face.

Yes Terminators with Fleet welcome to the Ravensgaurd. Shrike gives all units with Fleet. Vasnguard may assault out of pods thats one of there new special rules.

when Iplayed demeons I got hit with Flamer of Tznich.. who cares if they can't assault.. they can deep strike flamers in and flame template to death..

To win with Tau you must be given the chance to shoot. These rules do not give Tau the chance to shoot. and we all know .. ws 2 st 3, T 3, int. 2! is going to win allot of hand to hand games

Oh. your. God.

Assaulting OUT OF DROP PODS?! Termies with FLEET?!

Ok, here's the plan. When a Ravenguard player challenges you to a game, just scream, "CHEESE!" and smack him upside the head. Then run. Fast.

The only thing I can think of to counter this is take some Kroot and put them in a defensive ring around your Tau forces. That way, the enemy will have to assault the Kroot, and not the Fire Warriors/Crisis Suits/Hammerheads

Astalado wrote:... thats because the marine player could not make a save to save his life.

Lolz.

Vanguard can't assault out of a pod - they can only do Heroic Intervention if they have jump packs, and can only take a pod if they don't take jump packs.

Does Shrike really give fleet to termies? Because if so I'm repainting my Deathwing. 30 fleeting thudner hammmer marines. Woot!

I don't think first turn drop pod assault exists. First turn deep strike assault seems to be valid, but the unit is expensive and it is risky to deep strike so close.

What sort of list do you run?

my game store got a pre release copy of the Codex. All main units of the marines have a skill called combat tatics... aSSAULT SQUADS, TATICAL SQUADS, TEMINATORS, BASICALLY ALL INFANTRY MODELS. Now, the new shrike gets 195 points ws 6 and 4+ inv. here is the disgusting part any unitwith combat tatics may now remove combat tatics and gives them fleet. Aka 10 man term squads with +2, 3 inval saves with 12-18 inch assault and vanguard, assault squads, anything else with jump pack....24-18 inch assault. Any unit that has combat tatics

I have 8000 pts of tau I can field anything.. I have tried gun line which this kill and also the normal pod assault just eats. Suit armies butthey can't shoot move only 12 and will get run down by fleetin units. mech tau got nurfed sense we can't shoot under them. Vespid to squeshy to work anymore. I use 30 vespid with ap 3 weapons. But I can kill two units a turn. But with fleet units or pods I can't stop 6 units i n my lines in turn 2. To hard to pop tanks. Broadsides and Hammerheads can't kill as easy with everything getting 4+ cover saves. TO negate that you have to focus your marker drones to eat the cover save and that stops you shooting at the infantry

so yes... Take Revens Guard. 30 termies with fleet with assault squads with Fleet... Why not field that.

i think i know what the real problem is here, hes army is tau.

Use some speed bump units. The new consolidation rules mean your entire line can't be eaten in one go, just make sure each unit of his can only assault one of yours a turn, then blast the crap out of them.

stay the heck out of range pound him with everything and hope "he cant make a save to save his life"

better idea, pack your army with "close combat troops" if Tau have them, and just have some heavy firepower to back them up, either that or do as said above and surround your tau with kroot

If you are deploying right on the 24" line you deserve to lose every game.

TAU HAVE GOOD RANGE... USE IT!

im finding tau alot harder to play with now, but it is possible to win, just cant make any mistake now as they wont forgive.

make sure you have a solid gunline, use gun drones to fly forward and kamakazi anything close.
make use of crisis and broadsides lot.
max out on the crisis suits, give them a weaon for killing armour and one for cutting down troop.
make use of the extra move in the assult phase and keep them out of CC for aslong as possible.
take vespid for any vanguard that gets close.
and it might even be worth putting a unit of kroot behind your gunline to either stop flank units or to run forward and keep the enemy away for another turn.

im currently 5-2-2, so it is possible to win still, tau just got a little more tactical.

Tyranidlurker wrote:If you are deploying right on the 24" line you deserve to lose every game.

TAU HAVE GOOD RANGE... USE IT!

You haven't read the deployment rules for the 5th ed missions have you? When your opponent can start at the middle of the table, it makes starting greater than 24" apart impossible. Or when they can come in on the side table edges, there is only a 1/3 chance they will end up on the wrong side, 2/3 of the time they come in close to you. The range bonus Tau weapons enjoyed simply doesn't exist anymore when the enemy can start just that much closer.

breeno wrote:better idea, pack your army with "close combat troops" if Tau have them, and just have some heavy firepower to back them up, either that or do as said above and surround your tau with kroot

Tau have no close combat troops. Even Kroot arn't really close combat troops. If you throw in some hounds they do OK, but a dedicated CC unit from any other race will still shred them apart. I dislike the idea that you have to take units that are just supposed to die. You never hear about marines taking "speed bump units" Why do Tau have to offer up free KPs just to have a chance? That spells instant loss in 1/3 of all your games.

breeno wrote:better idea, pack your army with "close combat troops" if Tau have them, and just have some heavy firepower to back them up, either that or do as said above and surround your tau with kroot

Tau have no close combat troops. Even Kroot arn't really close combat troops. If you throw in some hounds they do OK, but a dedicated CC unit from any other race will still shred them apart. I dislike the idea that you have to take units that are just supposed to die. You never hear about marines taking "speed bump units" Why do Tau have to offer up free KPs just to have a chance? At 7 points each Kroot aren't really cheep enough to do that effectively. How many points do I need to spend... 70, 140, 280? That spells instant loss in 1/3 of all your games.

If they even ge a chance to fire. Dawn of War says that if you set up.. Then the other may set up 18 inches away from you... *thinks for a second* thats charge range! If they get the to go first... wow... not even one turn to shot. Tau lost there shooting ability. If you use kroot or firewarriors niether will hold up to assault. Ohh and then think of this. Drop pod assault so you have half his drop pods landing first turn in you line and his assault marines assaulting the line.. Tau loses the ability to consolidate fire and kill units with multiple units in there line. Tau is good but 4-6 units in there lines and 3 assault marines have 90% chance of killing a whole fire warrioir squad.

Thats why I started this thread... I don't see a way to keep a whole army in tournement format a fair chance

Actually, Dawn of War is 24" deployment range - table halves. Your opponent cannot set up within 18" of you, true - but they still have to set up in their own deployment zone. Thus you can deploy at the very table edge and still have at least 23" between you and your opponent.

Drop pods cannot drop on the first turn, to my knowledge. They're held in reserve, so come in on the second turn at the earliest. Likely, your opponent will not get everything in the first turn they're available, so that means you get to concentrate your firepower (and being Tau you have a lot of it) on the bits that come in. And again, unless something has drastically changed, there's no charging out of drop pods, not even for Vanguard.

Yes, the new Vanguard, especially with Shrike giving them Fleet, is nasty. But that assumes that they DS right where the player wants them, and his dice are good enough on Run moves and difficult terrain charges to actually reach you - and that they don't scatter poorly and die due to mishap tables, or lose members of their squad from landing in difficult terrain.

Running terminators have existed in this edition for a while now. They now have a 3++ invulnerable save; that's nice. Weight of fire will still drop them as it did before - one in every 6 saves will fail, and the more dice they roll the better the chances of them failing multiple saves, statistically.

Tau can make use of smaller expendable squads to blunt charges and moves - this is what those drones are meant for. It's simple defense against deepstrike - cluster your models so they can't drop in your lines, and put drones or kroot in front so that they're the only things that can be charged. They'll die/flee in a turn of combat, and now those expensive Vanguard are standing in front of your lines in rapid fire range, and they're no tougher than any other marine. You don't hear about that often with Marines because Marines are not Tau, and don't drop as easily in combat - but some people do play with expendable squads, especially against even nastier droppers like Daemons.

Lastly, having problems with assaults on your Fire Warriors? Put them in Devilfish that move 12" a turn - your opponents can't shoot the FW, and hit the devilfish on 6s in combat. With disruption pods, they're getting 4+ cover, even in the open. Problem solved.

Okay, look, here's the problem Astalado's running into.

Shrike armies can fleet. Every infantry model. Fleet. If you're playing against Shrike, you are probably staring at 30 jump pack assault marines on deployment.

There are 3 types of standard deployment.

1. Table Quarters: max distance you can set up away from opponent is 30-36". However, this puts your back flush against the short edge. Against Outflankers, it is almost guaranteed you will have guys assaulting multiple squads on turn 2. If you try to spread your deployment out, you will be attacked by the 30 assault marines.

2. Table Halves: Regardless of where you set up, it is virtually impossible to be out of assault range from Shrike on Turn 1. Even if you make a straight line of guys on the back table edge, Shrike has to roll a 5 to be able to assault. If you deploy as few as 4" off your own back edge, it's a 5/6 chance that Shrike will be on top of you. Because this scenario is usually accompanied by Night Fighting rules, odds are very good that you won't be able to actually shoot him before he's on top of you.

3. 12" deployment: Marines deploy 12" forward, move 15" a turn, are assaulting you on Turn 2. Likewise Shrike can come off the board edge. Since these are jump marines we're talking about, that's an effective assault range of 19-24". Again, it is virtually impossible to avoid both the Turn 2 30 marine assault and Shrike's incredible threat radius.

No matter how you slice it, the only thing Tau can do is kill about 20 marines in one turn of shooting to even stand a chance of surviving. Keeping in mind here that Shrike, an Honor Guard, and 3 assault squads cost about 1000 pts., there's going to be roughly the same amount of killing power rolling up behind their jetpack assault that could easily be assaulting on Turn 3.

My friend Tzeentchling... I thank you for your information about dawn of war .


If you do that and line them against the back edge you still have to worry about flankers with bikes and there 2 foot assault.

In the new codex I have read about the Drop pod assault rules. you may drp half of your drop pods in the first turn. it is to combat the new demeon armies.
Why not drop pod on units.. Drop pod drops and moves my units so it can land.. Why not drop on the unit. Who cares what it dev. It will land no matter what!

And yes we double checked it Vanguard can assault out of they have a new skill call something heroic... they may not run but can assault out of pods

Terms in the beloved new Shrike army can 18-24 inch assault .. welcome to fleet.

But using units as expendable, in the mission where kill points are important. Why put units on the board that will give them an advantage. they might have 7 units and i would have 6 in just expendable units on the board. if I kill half there army I might get 3-4 kill points. all they have to do is eat 3-4 expendable units and kill one tank and win. Not a very good idea. Plus using expendable units infront give the enemy cover saves! Yeah makes them even harder to kill.

Sure putting them in a Tank will protect them. But I still have to get them out to take objectives. and when a tank blows. they squads get smaller. Maybe a good tatic but still not good enough to make them able to hold there own in a tournement level games.


Sorry I really am a bad typer. Had to edit.



Or god if you play the salamanders. where all melta, and flame weapons are twin link... no tanks are safe.

Actually, no, drop pods don't move your units. Instead, they scatter by the minimum amount to avoid a deep-strike mishap by landing on your models. Note they can still scatter off the board. Unless of course the new codex changes this - I haven't seen it yet, so I dunno.

From what I heard, Vanguard could only perform Heroic Intervention if they had jump packs. In a drop pod, they have no packs. Again, I don't have the codex, so I dunno. My advice against deep strikers, particularly charging deep strikers, still stands.

As for kill points, yes, tau have problems - but they had problems anyway. It's one of those things - more units to contest objectives = more kill points. Whether this can be minimized somehow, I don't know.

Actually, they don't have to get out of the devilfish at all to take objectives. Measurements are made from the hull of the vehicle for units inside. Are they invulnerable? No, but their life expectancy is increased.

I agree that the new marine Codex gives a lot of armies serious problems. Outflanking bikers, deepstriking assault squads, (fleet terminators don't really seem like that much of an issue, really), drop pods, and so on. But again, taking all these units will mean there's less stuff on the board.

As for how to beat everything, well, who knows yet (except maybe Stelek )? The codex isn't even officially out yet, let alone has anyone had any chance to practice it or play against it in any serious amount. It'll take some time to get used to it and figure out how to beat them. Same thing happened with Daemons - they won a bunch of games in the beginning because no one really knew how to play against them. Now, against experienced players, they're no biggie.

What I have learned here makes my necrons amazingly worried. Fleeting Terminators that drop pod assault ontop of you? Not cool. However it is definitely not impossible to win with Tau. This is 40k, its never impossible. Obscured hammerheads are amazing now. crisis suits always have been. with the new consolidation rules, I would suggested speed bump squads as alot of people have been saying. Also, even terminators will die to torrent of fire. Just keep playing, there is always a way to win.

Speed bump squads don't work against jump infantry. They go right over them and leap into the 2-3 squads behind them.

Obscured Hammerheads are amazingly good at range, however Cruising Speed doesn't let the main gun fire and, if I recall correctly, disruption pods are only good beyond 6". Assault troops with meltaguns are going to be flying right along side and zapping it with impunity.

sourclams wrote:Speed bump squads don't work against jump infantry. They go right over them and leap into the 2-3 squads behind them.

Obscured Hammerheads are amazingly good at range, however Cruising Speed doesn't let the main gun fire and, if I recall correctly, disruption pods are only good beyond 6". Assault troops with meltaguns are going to be flying right along side and zapping it with impunity.

Cruising Speed is 12", yeah? Give your HH a Multi-Tracker, it can go 12" and still shoot the Railgun. Awesome? Yes.

Also, Dpods work up to 12" away. So as long as you are 12" away, the 4+ cover is mine!

Astalado wrote:Hello,

I am trying to figure out a way to make my favorite army able to even go to tournements. I would love anybodys ideas on how this can be done. Does anybody have any ideas

Astalado

It would be very tough...

I would try out flanking kroot squads with hounds. They are decent. If you are lucky enough to place objectives, you can put them as close to the edges as you can, and do late game objective grabs/denies.

Drop Pods? Leave your whole army in Reserve. Let them drop half in the first turn and you can react. Pray you go second. Castle formations do not work.

Three Hammerheads every time. Try to skip any unit with a Ld stat. Impossible I know, but that basically means no broadsides.

FW's in a fish are hit and miss. Warfish are to slow. If I bring them, I bring them as cheap as possible.

The rest Fireknives.

Good luck though. Tau's lousy leadership, TLOS, Wound allocation, and outflank really hurt.

(Apologies in advance for caps)

NOTHING CAN ASSAULT OUT OF A DROP POD.

Get it? Got it? Good.

The only squad that can assault after any form of Deep Strike is Vanguard. Their Heroic Intervention rule allows this. Heroic Intervention specifically says it only works if they have jump packs. They only have the option of taking a pod if they don't take jump packs.

Fleet doesn't let you assault out of a pod, it just removes the restriction of not being able to assault after running; the pod restriction on assault is still in place. See the YMTC threads on daemons with fleet assaulting. Same thing.

Tau have no problems in tournaments. Tau just got to Table 1 in the LVGT for Game 5 to play for the Overall Champion fer craps sake (he got his behind handed to him... but so did everyone else that played Marc).

The problem I saw with 99.9% of all Tau player's problems were that they screwed themselves in deployment. Tau need to relearn deployment for 5th. Practice it before calling it busted.

stjohn70 wrote:Tau have no problems in tournaments. Tau just got to Table 1 in the LVGT for Game 5 to play for the Overall Champion fer craps sake (he got his behind handed to him... but so did everyone else that played Marc).

The problem I saw with 99.9% of all Tau player's problems were that they screwed themselves in deployment. Tau need to relearn deployment for 5th. Practice it before calling it busted.

What was the deployment error they were committing?

rosicrucian,im guessing they were so smart they deployed as far forward as possible.


tau have range, keep them as far back as possible, make a nice solid fire line to any and all areas on the board, 1 uncovered flank means alot of crap if they take advantage of it.

JD21290 wrote:rosicrucian,im guessing they were so smart they deployed as far forward as possible.


tau have range, keep them as far back as possible, make a nice solid fire line to any and all areas on the board, 1 uncovered flank means alot of crap if they take advantage of it.

Hmm, that seems to make sense. I was just curious as the disruption pod seems like it would make Tau very flexible in deployment. Were 4th ed. Tau armies generally deployed forward?

For the most part, it's about using Tau's range and mobility. The classic split castle corner is back in a big way vs forward deploying (Dawn of War) opponents. Force your opponent to go after one half of your army, and kack him. In Dawn of War you have so many options: If you go first, deploy a Pathfinder squad all the way to the table half and then the rest of your army back on your edge, then Scout move back to your units - that's awesome pushback. If you go second, react well to your opponent's deployment - don't setup right across from him simply because you have great firelanes.

Oh, and above all, stop trying to rely on low AP weaponry. Higher volume of shots with more wounds means more now.

stjohn70 wrote:For the most part, it's about using Tau's range and mobility. The classic split castle corner is back in a big way vs forward deploying (Dawn of War) opponents. Force your opponent to go after one half of your army, and kack him. In Dawn of War you have so many options: If you go first, deploy a Pathfinder squad all the way to the table half and then the rest of your army back on your edge, then Scout move back to your units - that's awesome pushback. If you go second, react well to your opponent's deployment - don't setup right across from him simply because you have great firelans.

Oh, and above all, stop trying to rely on low AP weaponry. Higher volume of shots with more wounds means more now.

Thanks, that makes sense. All this doom and gloom were a little worrying for my nascent tau.

stjohn70 wrote:For the most part, it's about using Tau's range and mobility. The classic split castle corner is back in a big way vs forward deploying (Dawn of War) opponents. Force your opponent to go after one half of your army, and kack him. In Dawn of War you have so many options: If you go first, deploy a Pathfinder squad all the way to the table half and then the rest of your army back on your edge, then Scout move back to your units - that's awesome pushback. If you go second, react well to your opponent's deployment - don't setup right across from him simply because you have great firelanes.

Oh, and above all, stop trying to rely on low AP weaponry. Higher volume of shots with more wounds means more now.

I like your comments so please don't take my points as an attack or anything.

What do you do about Outflanking units when you castle in the two corners? Sounds like Flamer and Assault bait to me.

I still don't see how you cannot rely on low AP weaponry. Sure don't build your army around it, but you still need a decent amount of it.

If you are deploying that close to your table edges your spread out and again, have outflanking problems.

From what I hear the LVGT still had a ton of 4th edition armies, so I might take results from that tourny with a grain of salt. Highest TAU was 34th.

Rosicrucian wrote:

stjohn70 wrote:For the most part, it's about using Tau's range and mobility. The classic split castle corner is back in a big way vs forward deploying (Dawn of War) opponents. Force your opponent to go after one half of your army, and kack him. In Dawn of War you have so many options: If you go first, deploy a Pathfinder squad all the way to the table half and then the rest of your army back on your edge, then Scout move back to your units - that's awesome pushback. If you go second, react well to your opponent's deployment - don't setup right across from him simply because you have great firelans.

Oh, and above all, stop trying to rely on low AP weaponry. Higher volume of shots with more wounds means more now.

Thanks, that makes sense. All this doom and gloom were a little worrying for my nascent tau.

I wouldn't get all doom and gloom about them, but be prepared. A competitive 5th edition scene can be a little rough on the old TAU.

How exactly do Terminators with Fleet assault 18"-24"? By my reckoning, the rules only permit them a 6" move, a 1"-6" run, and a 6" assault move, for 13"-18".

methoderik wrote:What do you do about Outflanking units when you castle in the two corners?

Deploy lines of kroot or firewarriors along your side table edge to deny valid entry positions near your army? The 1" away rule would seem to make this easy.

Nurglitch wrote:How exactly do Terminators with Fleet assault 18"-24"? By my reckoning, the rules only permit them a 6" move, a 1"-6" run, and a 6" assault move, for 13"-18".

Land Raiders I believe.

Well then, let's make it proper, lol.

LR 12"
Deploy 3.6" (one edge needs to be just within 2"... and the 40mm base is bigger!)
Run 1-6"
Assault 6"
Total 22.6" - 27.6" Yummy

The Tau have always been an unforgiving and highly tactical army, with cross-fire being the Tau players best friend. But with 5th ed they just require a bit more thought in how one uses them. I myself have lost most of my games with Tau...even in 4th ed but the victories I do have took a long time to play the game cuz I spent a lot of time thinking of every option for every unit.

stealth suits with two drones each.. a very effective unit that infiltrates is very mobile, hard to target and can actually hold its own in close combat. spam them with a good krrot/hound squad and you have a force that is actually pretty effective at redirecting forces.

I have found all the frag/plasma grenades make even large stealth units crumble in HTH faster than ever before.

Everybody knows that a Tau castle is really fun to play/play against. A couple of indirect firing weapons or outflanking with a flamer will cause that outer wall to fall pretty fast. No LD + lining the board edge = loss in my experience.

Indirect is not the bane of Tau anymore. Yup, I can sure see that basilisk behind the forest... dead.

Ways to beat outflank. First, it's not a surprise - if it's coming, you know it. You can create edge denial and only give him vehicles up by where he can come in the edge from. It's not rocket science: there isn't a carte blanch answer to everything, dual castle doesn't always work - etc. You just have to be aware of the situations as they come up; stop deploying every mission the same!

great discussion

I have yet to play a game of 5th edition with my tau.

Has anyone got a story of a game they recently played with some lessons learned on deployment?

I have 30 kroot. Sounds like they can be very useful denying outflank like they denied space wolf scouts a shot at my suits in 4th edition. Is this right?

Those same kroot will prove just as useful as speed bumps against assault marines as they did in 4th.

Someone said start my army in reserve against drop pods. Am I allowed to volunteer starting my hammerhead in reserve?

stjohn70: I don't think Pathfinders can start on board in Dawn of War, since the Scout rule has been changed from 4th and they're not HQ/Troops.

onlainari: All missions allow any part of your army to be held in Reserve if you so choose. With the Positional Relay and a few throwaway units, Tau can actually keep nearly their entire army off-board and swarm in on Turn 5. Might just be a parlor trick right now, but it has some interesting prospects.


If utilizing the corner castle deployment, I would think a Kroot pack nearly mandatory to defend against outflankers (since the castle is a very tempting target). In a "L" deployment, the Kroot can speedbump an outflanker, die and then leave the outflankers out in the open to get shot down.

KKKKKK
K
K
K TAU
K TAU


In a single castle setup, outflankers will show up on the wrong board edge 1/3 of the time, effectively removing their threat to the castle. If expecting multiple outflankers, the Kroot board edge screen can be doubled or tripled as long as a multi-charge situation is avoided. In the case of a mass outflanking army, it's probably best to deploy center board instead and utilize standard speedbump tactics to stall assaulters.

Dual-castle setups mean that an outflanker will get a shot at your shooters, but the Kroot line still works there. The advantages/disadvantages between single/dual castle will depend on your situation. It's best to know both (and when NOT to use them) and choose accordingly.

I just have a problem with spending 280 or more points on units that only purpose is to die. Its free VPs, and imo 7 point models are too much to be spending on sacrifice.

I do hope others who are reading this thread realize that the only real problem is when playing against assault based armies. If the Tau play against another shooty type with one or two counter assault units, its business as usual, and most of what is being discussed here will probably not apply.

I've played 3 games of 5th with my Farsight list. I'm still trying to grasp how 5th changes everything.

I've used the positional relay (PR) tactic to deny KPs (every game I've played has been KP so far) and drop in a 5 suit Farsight bomb. My opponents have been all MEq to date: Necrons, Space Marines and Spiky Space Marines.

Usual tactic is to deploy my PR 'El with 2 body guard 'vres behind some terrain. I'll also deploy either a FCW squad in a 'fish or my Pathfinders depending on the terrain options. Turns 2 and 3 I usually bring down a TLFB monat with a pair of shield drones to attempt to knock out any armor that is not on the board edge and distract any other heavy support like oblits, termies or heavy destroyers.

I'll always try to bring in the pathfinders so I can reroll the scatter dice for the farsight bomb. So far it hasn't mattered with that unit being destroyed via deep strike mishap in 2 games. The Pathfinders have never successfully removed a cover save either. I'm going to drop this unit from now on.

I've tried the corner castle and watched in horror as a 10 man SM unit with flamer outflanked my castle line, burned 3 FCW and watched them run off the board. From there I watched the broadsides get flamed a couple of times.

I used to deploy models behind terrain and use that to channel kill zones with overlapping fire lanes. That simply doesn't work anymore. Krak missiles following heavy bolters or destroyer fire easily removes a crisis team in 2 turns. 3-man units give up KPs too easily.

All my opponent has to do is wipe out my elite and heavy slots and the game is over. I suppose I could make it easier by putting drones on my 'fish and making them worth 3 KPs, but they seem to be doing just fine without the help. I pay an additional 20 points per transport to make the squad only 2KPs, but I never seem to fire both weapons, even with the DP because the 'fish has to also block melee lanes to my warriors. It really is 'the suck'.

The most successful game I've had so far was to just deploy a castle in the middle of the board and not move. It was a very boring game as any game is when you only do something in 1 out of the 3 phases of the game. Unfortunately, that seems to be the way to go.

Jayden63: Did you not use Kroot packs in 4th for much the same purpose (speedbumping, screening, infiltration)? IMO 70 pt Kroot packs are awfully cheap, especially for the various duties that they perform. Preventing assaulters from hitting your heavy guns (Crisis, Broadsides, Hammerheads) seems like a rather worthwhile use of them. Being able to outflank themselves to go after objectives (obviously not when you're being assaulted) or to mount up in Devilfish to claim are also pretty good uses of them.

The plan is to plink away at range against an assaulter (say a Marine Assault squad), they hit and fold the Kroot, and then you finish them at close range. You've traded a expendable unit for one of your opponent's primary combat units. Obviously this doesn't work under all circumstances, but it's good to have a base idea on where to work from.

A good castle defense will trade disposable screens for the most important factor, time. As it's rather improbable that you're going to be able to blow the entire enemy army away from range, you will have to take into account the enemy reaching your shooters. The more time your shooters have to inflict damage on the enemy, the better.

Crisis suits can utilize their jetpacks to extend the amount of time until they are caught, but they WILL be caught by fast moving assaulters. The best way of preventing this (short of killing them all) is to throw a sacrificial unit in the way to let your suits continue moving and shooting. While a Flechette-armed Devilfish is hilariously funny, it trades off with the potential of it being shot down and blocking LOS to the assaulter. The advantage is that it's faster and easier to get into blocking position. Kroot are cheaper, but more vulnerable to small arms fire clearing the way. They're also not as mobile and require a bit of pre-game thought on how to set them up, such as creating pre-planned escape routes for your Crisis suits.

Just a few more thoughts.

I've been using a new tactic with great success a couple weeks back in a tournament, I call it the "impassable castle” keep in mind that is tactic is pretty cheesy and should only be used in ultra completive tournaments or to teach someone a much needed lesson.

This tactic is designed to work if there is a number of "Impassable" terrain pieces available, boulders were actually the terrain pieces used here. Place the impassable terrain in a formation on a table corner that will have enough room for a single crisis suit equipped with a position relay and AFP (got to love no line of sight) and a devilfish with SMS, but almost NOTHING else. Try to do this on both sides of the table so depending upon deployment zones you will have at least 1 "impassable castle” on your side. The only problem that might come up is spearhead deployment, in that case position your devilfish & crisis suit as close as possible to one of the castles so they can get there on turn 2.

Behind the castle the enemy can not outflank you, assault you, and can only shoot indirect weapons, most of which stand little chance of destroying your devilfish. Then on each turn I bring in one outflanking unit (or hope I roll a 1), given the situation I either bring in Pathfinders with EMP grenades (perfect for any armor sitting within 12 inches of a table edge), Kroot with a full 10-12 Kroot hounds (perfect for any foot soldiers within 12 inches of the table edge), or a stealth suit team (perfect to shoot at something within 24 inches of the table edge). Then on turn 4 or turn 5, everything else comes on the table, usually close enough to be in rapid fire range of anything looking to get to my objective marker or trying to find some way into my castle.

In the Kill points game in the tournament the score was 2 Kill points- 1 Kill point going into turn five with me trailing, after turn 5 it was 8 Kill points- 3 Kill Points (Finished off those Kroot!) in my advantage.

spmusubi wrote:Jayden63: Did you not use Kroot packs in 4th for much the same purpose (speedbumping, screening, infiltration)? IMO 70 pt Kroot packs are awfully cheap, especially for the various duties that they perform. Preventing assaulters from hitting your heavy guns (Crisis, Broadsides, Hammerheads) seems like a rather worthwhile use of them. Being able to outflank themselves to go after objectives (obviously not when you're being assaulted) or to mount up in Devilfish to claim are also pretty good uses of them.

I ran a mostly mechanized list. No Kroot. The only non mounted infantry were broadsides. When guys were hitting D-fish/Hammerheads on 6s in HTH and having to deal with front armor it was all the speed bump you needed. LOS didn't matter because my list runs 7 SMS systems. Concentration of fire wiped out assault units that had to hoof it across the table, no matter how fast they did it. Speed bumps need not apply back then, the enemy couldn't zip in from a flank and I had time to take them out. Now with the enemy in your face on turn 1-2 things are looking vastly different.

So, if I'm not facing an enemy who's whole army is trying to run at me, I am fine?

Pew pew.

I had actually talked to the OP before this thread was started. Being a Tau player myself, but not having enough knowledge to help out a lot in this question...I went to the only place I could think of that would be of help, Tao-online. On the forums I posted the question and here was a reply that sounds like good advice...make what you will of it.

Animist- Keep your crisis suits in reserve and deploy mech tau infantry + pathfinder in devilfish, he has to deep strike in first turn with half of his army, if you go first keep in vehicles make sure they all move 12 inches and therfor require a 6 to hit in CC. Odds are he will not get all your fish, you can then respond in your turn and swarm the area most threatend with your Fish of Fury + the downed fish.

If you use static Tau, you are going to have to learn how to play mobile Tau, and put D'yi on your XV88's, bringin them on from reserve.
Give a Crisis Monat / Team Leader the positional relay, so you get reserves on turn 2 on a 2+, and teach those marines what rapid firing plasma does making sure you optimise your landing zone with the pathfinder devilfish so you can reroll for scatter.

All these marine goodies bode well for future Tau codex though, they are getting cool stuff and they are a technophobic army, think about all the potential for mobile Tau warfare they are half exploring with the technology fearing imperium.

All these new additions are GW promise to stop the first turn in the game being a deciding factor, the fact you can keep pretty much anything in reserve no means almost all games are of escalating type, very cool, and much more realistic.

Jedibean- Good suggestions there animist. Yeah, if you win the roll off and the set up is dawn of war style then you should choose to go second. At this point he'll have to deep strike half his guys in with nothing to shoot or assault, then you can bring your guys in as a reaction to his deployment. At the same time, you'll be wasting his first turn.

I heard this might be happening too. The idea of keeping your troops in a devilfish is never a bad idea either. I do it all the time. It works pretty well. Give them a flachette discharger and it's even more secure.

I agree with the point that if it's DoW and you win the roll off, go second. For all the reasons stated above AND, because YOU get last turn!

He goes first, but wastes that turn, then you get to go last, which is good for objective based games.

All very interesting ideas. The problem is that all these tatics are also based on good luck and everything going your way.

I am trying yet again another look for my army. I am trying tommarow a battle with Farsight and giving up my 30 vespid and static gun line. I will be fielding

Farsight + 8 bodyguards

Tau Commander and + 2 bodyguards

firewarrior squads in fish +6

2 squads of Crisis

2 Hammerheads

1 Piriah squad

We will see how it goes. It will be a test sense its agfainst the new Shrike Squad

Astalado

couple problems with farsight, his bodyguard has a max of 7 and you can only deploy one hammerhead if you are using him

Astalado wrote:All very interesting ideas. The problem is that all these tatics are also based on good luck and everything going your way.

I am trying yet again another look for my army. I am trying tommarow a battle with Farsight and giving up my 30 vespid and static gun line. I will be fielding

Farsight + 8 bodyguards

Tau Commander and + 2 bodyguards

firewarrior squads in fish +6

2 squads of Crisis

2 Hammerheads

1 Piriah squad

We will see how it goes. It will be a test sense its agfainst the new Shrike Squad

Astalado

Seems like that is all we have for right now.

Perhaps the tau have changed and army composition and selections need to change with it.

You now have the option to specify anything as reinforcements. Broadsides, Crisis Suits and the like are all able to move on and fire with the right load outs. The vehicles can too. Perhaps some fire warriors should be armed with pulse carbines.... lowered ROF but 18" range on the move with pinning. Stealth suits or even a kroot/hound unit coming off the board edge.

Present enough of a target to entice him to still come at you. If he is nice enough to still approach, I have no problem with 12 firewarriors walking off your board edge and saying 24 S5 shots into your assault marines... hmmm I think I will rinse and repeat and do the same. Oh and my crisis suit will drop a flamer and 2 plasma shots for good luck.

I can see this causing people trouble as they remake their armys but you've gained some things as well ...

...all your suits are jet packs (ok not broad sided) no need to buy that Advance stabilisation sytem you're now Relentless for free so can happly move and shoot rapid and heavy weapons at max range and assault (why you'd assault i don't know)
...Kroot can out flank as well and they can be a very large unit ... imagine a 20 kroot 12 hounds and 3 Riders coming in next to your unit make you think twice (282p ... i don't see the need for a shaper)...
... marker lights can reduce a cover save...
... marker lights can reduce some ones LD against pinning (haven't seen the new SM codex yet but my guess is those fleeting terminators aren't fearless so just pin them each turn)...
... if you have a multi-tracker (10p bargin) you can tank charge 12" hitting and causing a unit to fall back ... if not deploy your drones in the way of the unit and get the passengers out (you've side doors as well) and rapid fire with the drones, the burst cannon and you're 12 fire warriors ... i count 29 strenth 5 shots there (2 causing pinning) even SM will take a good few wounds ... if the drones are in the right place he'll not be able to get round them and into assualt (or he'll just shoot n charge them letting your DF and FW run for it)
... also i see the Sky Ray being usefull with its 2 Networked marker lights ...
... sniper drones = long ranged pinning hell at 80p S:6 AP3 (just a shame they count as the unit they're with or they'ed be jet pack and cound move and shoot)...
... drone controller lets you take 2 drones and can also be taken as hardwired ... that could be 12 marker light drone in a HQ unit (oh and they can move and fire thank you relentless)...
I'm sure theres more but i think that'll do

>Final edit< reading the replys i've missed a few things ... sorry about that, i haven't read the codex in a while.

Tri wrote:I can see this causing people trouble as they remake their armys but you've gained some things as well ...

...all your suits are jet packs (ok not broad sided) no need to buy that Advance stabilisation sytem you're now Relentless for free so can happly move and shoot rapid and heavy weapons at max range and assault (why you'd assault i don't know)
...Kroot can out flank as well and they can be a very large unit ... imagine a 20 kroot 12 hounds and 3 Riders coming in next to your unit make you think twice (282p ... i don't see the need for a shaper)...

Broadsides aren't Jet Pack Infantry and they're the only ones who took ASS, they still need it. You can't out flank with Krootox since they cause the kroot to lose infiltrate, you CAN load two of them and 10 kroot into a Devilfish though, which is amusing.

Tri wrote:I can see this causing people trouble as they remake their armys but you've gained some things as well ...

...all your suits are jet packs (ok not broad sided) no need to buy that Advance stabilisation sytem you're now Relentless for free so can happly move and shoot rapid and heavy weapons at max range and assault (why you'd assault i don't know)
...Kroot can out flank as well and they can be a very large unit ... imagine a 20 kroot 12 hounds and 3 Riders coming in next to your unit make you think twice (282p ... i don't see the need for a shaper)...
... marker lights can reduce a cover save...
... marker lights can reduce some ones LD against pinning (haven't seen the new SM codex yet but my guess is those fleeting terminators aren't fearless so just pin them each turn)...
... if you have a multi-tracker (10p bargin) you can tank charge 12" hitting and causing a unit to fall back ... if not deploy your drones in the way of the unit and get the passengers out (you've side doors as well) and rapid fire with the drones, the burst cannon and you're 12 fire warriors ... i count 29 strenth 5 shots there (2 causing pinning) even SM will take a good few wounds ... if the drones are in the right place he'll not be able to get round them and into assualt (or he'll just shoot n charge them letting your DF and FW run for it)
... also i see the Sky Ray being usefull with its 2 Networked marker lights ...
... sniper drones = long ranged pinning hell at 80p S:6 AP3 (just a shame they count as the unit they're with or they'ed be jet pack and cound move and shoot)...
... drone controller lets you take 2 drones and can also be taken as hardwired ... that could be 12 marker light drone in a HQ unit (oh and they can move and fire thank you relentless)...
I'm sure theres more but i think that'll do

Just clearing up some misconceptions.

1 - Suits never took ASS as they can't take any heavy weapons there was no need for them. All the Tau VX8 weapons systems are rapid fire or assault. Their own built in suit rules allowed for them to fire rapid fire weapons at max range even when moving. Broadsides (which don't have jet packs) will still need ASS if they want to move and shoot the railgun or SMS system. They can take plasma rifles for 10 points though so I guess thats an option for moving and shooting without ASS.

2 - If you take a Krootox rider you loose infiltrate ability. Thus no outflank.

3-4 Markerlights are good. But they don't do anything better in 5th ed than they did in 4th ed. Its just there are more cover saves running around that makes them seem more useful. However the one good thing about the pinning issue is that if the SM player does break up into combat squads, suddenly one squad is stuck at LD8 as they both can't share the Sargents LD bonus. But pinning is never a sure thing, you have to kill a terminator to force the check and since it will always get its 2+ save vs any of the weapons Tau have that cause pinning its going to be hard just to force the LD check in the first place regardless of what the LD has been reduced to.

5 - Tank shock is not a run for the hills maneuver. If the enemy passes their check they only have to move the guys who would have gotten run over the minimum amount of space to let the tank pass. Now you cannot deploy your firewarriors or the attached drones (free VP thanks) within one inch of the enemy. You don't really want to unload your firewarriors on the other side of the tank as some may not have LOS. Thus it will be real hard to keep the enemy from getting a charge on the next turn. Also 29 shots sounds impressive. But that really depends on what your shooting at. Its about 3 dead marines. Depending on starting strength of the squad its barely a dent. At least its enough to force a LD check for 25% casualties

6- skipping a few.

7 - Marker light drones are 30 points each. Your unit of 12 is 360 points. If you really want to spend a crap ton of points on a bunch of T3 4+Sv models I wont stop you. Sad part is, its still only 6 markerlight hits on a single unit each turn.

Give crisis suits shield drones. There is no longer enough LOS blocking terrain for them, shield drones give them a lot more freedom.

Pretty simple solution to a lot of these issues -

Play to the scenarios. In most missions, if you're encountering an enemy that can be on top of you immediately (which you will know thanks to the 5th edition full disclosure rules), keep your army off the board. Unlike any other edition of WH40k I've played, you can generally start with your entire army off the board, if you so choose. They can't first turn assault if you're not on the board.

Seize the initiative, take advantage of the changes to the deployment options of this edition. Heck, my standard mounted Space Marine force usually stays off the board entirely and comes in as a Rhino convoy to avoid having the transports shot out from underneath 'em in the early turns.

Astalado wrote: Then the other may set up 18 inches away from you... *thinks for a second* thats charge range!

First of all, that's maximum charge range, not an automatic contact. You need to roll a '6' and there must not be any terrain slowing you down. Secondly, my (German) rule book states that you set up over 18" apart.

If they go first, you can keep everything in reserve. What's he going to do then? Bring it in and shoot the living daylights out of the offenders at point blank range. Btw, you can outflank and deep strike as well.

Kroot or FW are not supposed ot hold up to an assault. They are there to give your real units another chance to shoot. Hey, something is going to die. Drop pods (with FotA Libby) have always been the bane of (static) Tau - another reason why using a mechanized list was and is a good idea.

Gaunts are beasts, and able to charge 19-24". If nids set up first, it's all but guaranteed they'll be able to charge you.

Some people are saying kroot are really bad now, not particularly in this thread but elsewhere too.

I don't understand the logic. They were fantastic in 4th edition. In 5th edition cover saves are more widely available and are better. So kroot are more resilient. And kroot can now run, so are faster. And kroot still capture objectives.

Really, what's the deal? They get strictly better and people say they're worse?

I'm not sure how the Kroot's special forest rule (see through over 6 inches of area terrain) works -- if at all -- in 5e.

However, they benefit from the same factors that favour all other light armoured troops. They haven't got worse at anything.

I don't see why people say they got worse under 5e.

Kroot have other special forest rules - no difficult terrain tests, and +1 to cover save. Those were the big ones anyway. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've shot through more than 6" of forest.

The main reason I can think of that Kroot got worse is that large squads of them lose close combat any time they don't completely obliterate their opponent, and this is not good with the new rules. Sure with enough hounds you're testing to fall back at I5, but that isn't that great, especially when you fall back every single fight. Before, their large numbers would help keep their modifiers down (rarely outnumbered). Now they test on LD2 after every fight, even if all that's left is a single space marine. Lets just say I've never considered a shaper, because LD8 wouldn't help them anyway they lose every combat so badly.

That being said, I'm still playing around with two 18kroot/12 hound squads and they're not bad in 5th, there are a lot of units they just completely annihilate if they get the charge off a board edge (90 WS4 str4 attacks isn't so bad).

Kilkrazy wrote:I'm not sure how the Kroot's special forest rule (see through over 6 inches of area terrain) works -- if at all -- in 5e.

It doesn't, this is clarified in the Tau Empire FAQ. They do still get +1 cover save and no difficult terrain tests in forests of course.

Astalado,

Quite the dillema.

Animist had some good suggestions.

But I think the best answer is to go back to the start of the thread and ask if there is any way for Tau to viable in a tournament?

The answer looks like a pretty solid NO! for now. The reason you are running in mental cicrcles is because you are wondering how Tau can get around these hard assed armies that drop on you.

Maybe they CAN'T!

If Tau had a more flexible codex that allowed an all crisis suit army with crisis suits for troops that would be one way.

As it stands you might want to retool your army so that it is small and mobile and does its own deepstrikes.

The rub always comes in CC though, when you get into a hand fight, your bonding knife vs Abbadons somewhat bigger knife, Jain Zar's executioner, or just about anyone!

Since standing and shooting is not viable versus dropping enemies.

Since deepstrikers can bring melta guns for armour and flamers for kroot shields.....and will have both (or their daemonic equivelants) in numbers.

You have to be as mobile as possible to go tactical.

OR.

Drop Tau, and take up a new codex for a time until Tau get their latest upgrade towards viable struggles for the greater good.

Well... here we go... Like I posted earlier, I am here to tell you all what happened in my game today. We played the first mission of the hard boyz ternement today. I have to say against a good Shriek army and played well army. I WON!

Army:

HQ:
Farsight with 7 guards armed with Plasma and Fusion with Multi Link *fire all guns* Targeting array BS 4

Shas'el with one body gaurd armed same way

Elite:

Crisis Team of armed the same way

Troops:

Min Max FW Squad in fish with sm pack

Fast:

Piranah x2 with fusion guns

Heavy:

3x Broadsides with smart
What I did was to use some thing you all said. here what I did

1. He won int. and went first so I put everything in reserves. I fielded nothing.

2. I found out that it made the game very tatical. He had to waste two turns because I had nothing on the board. He also had to place Shriek in with his other units to make sure they were protected. He was at a lost what to do sense I hade nothing on the board. Assault armies need to know where to focus

3. Plasma and Fusion works wonders. each model with 2 shot at ap 2 and one at ap 1 with a multi lock does wonders, drop assault about 9 inches away to make sure you have a very good chance to hit the mark inside range.

4. A unit of farsight and his body guards are over 700pts but they do wonders. that is 16 shots of Plasma at ap 2 and 7 shots of ap 1. Marines units even with ubber character can;t stay around long, with some transports with sm launchers.

5. Farsight came in late but that was a good thing he droped by a stratigic point and cleaned it up so a fish ran in on turn five and took it.

6. the Other hq and a elite choice cleared one of he held so he only had on point.

7. the three fish never actually took the warriors out. I used it as a point grabber.

I won the game with to points to one. and two contested.

After thinking about this. The army worked well as a counter assault army and a hammer. The only problem is mass armies will give me fits, but this is the only armie I can see that can stand a chance. I thank you all for your help. I wish that this was not the army I have to use. I have to use farsight not the empire to have a chance. I love the fluf of the empire. Hell my 8000 point apoc army is painted with the gun line in ceremonial red armor and the etherial is umm *chuckles * in black armor and weild dual sabers..and my mech part of it is white on black as if they were storm troopers. I know it sound stupid but with the empire and raised in the eighties I could not stop my star wars flare. I just wish that I did not have to go to the Farsight to be able to win.

I'm taking my Tau to a tournament in 2 weeks.

There are 2 restrictions:

600 points in troops. Not allowed 3 of the same named non-troop unit.

I'm not interested in arguing over why the TO chose those restrictions. If you're interested, you only lose 5% of your score if you break a restriction, so it doesn't actually change who wins. The players that would win the tournament without restrictions are still going to win with the restrictions, the only difference is that the army lists have changed. Only people that weren't going to win the tournament anyway are going to break the restrictions, and it's less likely because they want a cheesy army and more likely they're just taking what they own or what their army fluff dictates.

Here's my list:

Shas'el - plasma rifle, missile pod, multitracker, 2 shield drones 117
Bodyguard - plasma rifle, missile pod, multitracker 72
Bodyguard - plasma rifle, missile pod, targeting array, hardwired multitracker 82

2 Crisis - twin missiles, 1 blacksun filter, 1 shield drone 104
4 Stealths - team leader, markerlight, marker drone 165

12 Fire Warriors in Devilfish - disruption pod 205
9 Fire Warriors - shas'ui, markerlight, target lock 115
7 Fire Warriors - carbines 70
10 Kroot 70
10 Kroot 70
10 Kroot 70

Hammerhead - railgun, gun drones, disruption pod 165
2 Broadsides - ASS, team leader, 2 shield drones 195

1500 points

It's a tournament so it's obviously using the victory point rules on page 300. It's not using kill points in any of the missions.

The victory point rules favor odd numbers. If you kill exactly half (models matter, wounds don't), they get half points. So I went into a lot of effort to make my crisis suits and stealths odd numbers.

The TO has ruled that my Shas'el is not an independent character. This is RAW.

I also dropped the targeting array from the bodyguard to increase their survivability. With all 3 crisis different, it is possible for all 3 to be wounded at one time, as the whole models rule only applies for models in an identical group of more than 1.

I chose 9 fire warriors with the markerlight instead of 6 so I have to lose 3 to make a check. No other reason really.

sourclams wrote:Gaunts are beasts, and able to charge 19-24". If nids set up first, it's all but guaranteed they'll be able to charge you.

Astalado was talking about marines who usually do not field gaunts. I thought he was referring to the 18" Terminator charge. Even if we look at gaunts, such a charge doesn't mean no shots will be fired. It means both players exchange one unit for another. It's IMO no worse than someone getting the first shot. Something's going to die if Tau go first, too.

Orc Town Grot wrote:
Quite the dillema.

But I think the best answer is to go back to the start of the thread and ask if there is any way for Tau to viable in a tournament?

The answer looks like a pretty solid NO! for now. The reason you are running in mental cicrcles is because you are wondering how Tau can get around these hard assed armies that drop on you.

As it stands you might want to retool your army so that it is small and mobile and does its own deepstrikes.

The rub always comes in CC

Since standing and shooting is not viable versus dropping enemies.

Since deepstrikers can bring melta guns for armour and flamers for kroot shields....

I'm sorry but what point exactly am I missing? ALL of those points were just as valid in 4th when Tau were a top tier army: Everyone always defeated Tau in CC. No change. Armies who can drop/DS can do it now and could do it then. No change. The same armies could take meltas and flamers. No change. Gunline Tau weren't the most competetive build in 4th. No change. Mobility was key and is viable now. Again no change.

Why again should Tau not work in tournaments when they did work in 4th and nothing has changed?

Ninja edit: There has been one noticeable change indeed - no consolidation into fresh units. That's a major boon for Tau, mobile, Farsight, or gunline.

I think the reports of Tau's demise in in v5 tournaments has been greatly exaggerated.

Can Tau win a 5th edition tournament? Absolutely. Will it require more player skill and some favorable match-ups compared to other armies out there? Definitely.

The reason for this is that I think Tau can fairly easily score a 'minor' win, it is rather more difficult (though not impossible) for them to get the maximum amount of points in the current GT scoring system for a number of reasons I'll discuss below.

For the Las Vegas GT, I ended up going 3-2 with the Tau, with one of those "wins" being a Kill Point draw that I won on VPs, one 'minor' loss and one major loss. I faced two of the Toledo players, with my first game going against the Vegas champ from last year Mike (not going to try to butcher his last name). My minor loss was against Greg Sparks who ended up doing pretty well overall in the tournament (no surprise) and my major loss was against a 189 model drop Guard army who also won the roll to force me to go first (and happened to unfortunately be a seize ground mission).

I still consider myself a Tau noob, having only played a little more than a dozen games with the army. So even though I played some quality opponents and armies I know that there are several tactical errors I made in many of my games that either cost me the win (with Greg) or cost me a bigger win. Its only with the drop IG game that I really feel like I had almost no control of the outcome of that game.


Before I go into more detail, I have to say that it is pretty ludicrous to discuss "all v5 tournaments" because not all tournaments are created equal. How a tournament sets its mission objectives and battle point scoring can radically alter an army's ability to perform successfully.

But let's just focus on the GT scoring for this year that essentially uses the rulebook missions, heavily rewards domination for mission objectives and yet also rewards close victories.

Every mission also has 3 bonus points that are earned by accomplishing a couple of secondary objectives like killing the Enemy Commander, having more units alive at the end of the game, killing the opponent's highest point unit, etc.

To get the maximum amount of points for each game you obviously need to accomplish these secondary objectives as well as getting a major victory, which is done by dominating the core mission objectives.

Full points in Annihilation is accomplished by scoring more than double the Kill Points your opponent does.
Full points in Capture & Control is accomplished by securing both objectives on the table.
Full points in Seize Ground is to control more than two of the table objectives (IIRC) than your opponent does.


In Annihilation while Tau do tend to have small vulnerable units, they also have really durable vehicles and if they have any mounted units they can keep them inside their Devilfish for most of the game to prevent them being killed. I generally feel like Tau can score minor wins in Annihilation pretty easily if they have a semi-mechanized army and there are some woods on the table for their Kroot to hide in. Where Tau struggle in annihilation is the fact that they lack the ability to go hunt down any enemy units that decide to hide out the game in order to deny VPs, although a healthy dose of Smart Missile Systems can mitigate this issue a bit.

Tau also tend to have more Kill Points available than many 'strong' Kill Point armies like big-mob Orks. That means even if you decimate the Orks you'll probably not get more than double their Kill Points unless you totally wipe them out. In conclusion I think Tau can win most Annihilation games against most armies but they will often struggle to reach the 'double' KP mark.

In my LVGT games, I played a Space Wolf player in my second game and I did manage to double his Kill Points and score a major win. In my final game, I played an Ork player in Dawn of War who got the first turn and had two big mobs of Stormboyz coming on from the board edge as well as two big mobs (one Shoota one Choppa) starting halfway on the table. All these mobs were threatening from turn 2 onwards so it was a real challenge to wittle him down and end tying him in Kill Points. I was two Stormboyz away from wiping out one more unit and securing a win (although I did still win on Victory Points).


Capture & Control is the hardest mission for Tau to win big because it is nearly impossible for them to go out and capture your opponent's objective unless they make a major mistake or you wipe them out completely. That means you essentially have to play for the mission objective draw and win on Victory Points. Against most opponents it should be fairly routine to hold your objective and blow away whatever the enemy sends your way. Of course, this kind of VP 'win' is exactly what makes it challenging to win the overall tournament with a Tau army.

At the LVGT, my one C&C game was against Greg Sparks and his CSM army. He decided to make me go first and he held his entire army in reserve, outflanking with his two Chosen units in Rhinos to come get my objective. I made some horrible deployment mistakes and when the game ended on turn 5 (only 3 real turns of the game) I wasn't in the proper position to stop him from contesting my objective. If I had been in position from the start, I think I could have dispatched his flankers and then won the game on VPs.


Seize Ground can definitely be won by the Tau most of the time. Their general mobility and the ability to keep their scoring units safe inside a transport (or in a forest for Kroot) is a powerful tool. Although again, it is hard to get the full victory as capturing objectives near the opponent's board edge can be challenging unless the area of the board is completely cleared.

In my first game against Mike's dual-lash Chaos army, I was able to squeak out very lucky win when his last squad (that was holding two objectives) failed its Ld10 morale check and run away. With that said, I don't think I played very well to maximize my ability to win the game and I could have done a much better job capturing what objectives were left and made a play to contest the objectives he had. Again, I think that comes back to my inexperience with Tau that leads me to play a bit passive at times. I think if I had played better I could have ensured a victory (or at least an objective tie) regardless of whether he passed that morale check or not.

My other Seize Ground was against the drop Guard army and like I've said several times, I really don't think I ever had a chance. *Perhaps* if I had gotten to go second I could have kept everything off the table and forced him to drop some units onto the table for me to destroy, but even then it would have been a tough game. As it happened, he dropped dozens of units on the second turn and only had *one* bad scatter which caused one of his Sentinels to be deployed by me. All the crucial elements in his army either landed on target or scattered a really favorable direction including both of his dual flamer special weapon units that promptly cooked two of my Kroot units out of a forest in one round.

In the end I was very pleased to have finished the game with any models left (3 Pathfinders and an immobilized Hammerhead), I considered that a moral victory.


If I hadn't faced an army that could totally decimate me with no chance, If I hadn't made so many tactical mistakes and if I had focused a bit more on both the main objectives and the secondary objectives I really feel as though I could have scored quite a few extra battle points, despite facing some really good opponents with pretty solid armies. Overall that makes me easily satisfied enough to bring the army back to battle again in future tournaments and try to improve my performance.


So what does a Tau army have going for it in v5?


1) It's vehicles are nearly indestructible from enemy shooting. Besides the IG game, I lost only a single vehicle to shooting all tournament. The new damage table plus the save from disruption pods makes them absolute damage soaks. That means the enemy has to try to come to you in order to take your vehicles out in close combat. Which is where you spring your Firewarrior squads out of their vehicles and obliterate enemy units in a hail of pulse fire.


2) Smart Missile Systems are a life-saver. Their ability to bypass intervening units/cover is amazing against hordes and against any army they are a life-saver at weeding out those last few models in an enemy unit that may try to go hide somewhere. Besides, they really allow you to keep all your vehicles in one area of the board without worrying too much about them blocking LOS to each other. You can create a vehicle "junkyard" and still pour shots anywhere you need them within 24".


3) Battlesuits soak up some a lot of firepower. By equipping your suits differently and giving them shield drones, Battlesuit units are much, much more durable than they used to be when they actually take fire. In my army, I included a Commander in the unit with the stimulant injector (feel no pain) and always dumped the extra wounds the squad took onto him so he could negate as many wounds as possible. People also complain about the inability to hide Battlesuits anymore, but the fact is, Devilfish/Hammerheads provide a perfect place to hide your suits behind to perform JSJ manuevers, so there really isn't any reason your suits should be shot unless you get severly outflanked or you just have to get your suits somewhere you aren't moving a vehicle.


4) Small units of Kroot are fantastic. Every GT table has a few forests, and that means Kroot are a must now for your Tau armies. Their pathetic Ld makes them a lock to run when they lose combat (and sometimes when they take shooting morale checks) so that means it is essential to keep their points cost low per unit (I took 3 squds of 10).

Kroot give you so many options, including outflanking and infiltrate and when you do infiltrate them into a forest you know they'll be a pain to dislodge unless your opponent has template weapons and/or an assault unit with frag grenades in the vicinity. You can keep them in the forest shooting away and just wait to be charged with their 2 Attacks meaning that when they go down they'll usually take some opponents with them.

And the fact that they *do* run when beaten in combat means you rarely then have a situation where you don't have a target to shoot at. All-in-all Kroot were just amazingly versatile and I just wish I could have included a 4th squad of 10 but I had to drop it out to take some Pathfinders.


5) Airbursting Fragmentation Projector and Hammerhead Railgun submunition shots. Fantastic against hordes. I killed absolute droves of Orks with these weapons (and the AFP ignores cover saves too!) and if I had gotten to go first in that mission I think I would have completely decimated the Ork player instead of tying on Kill Points as I ended up doing.



Of course the Tau also have some serious disadvantages:


1) Morale. The bane of Tau in 5th edition, morale can make Tau very tricky to play although I still wouldn't sink to taking an Ethereal. You can mitigate some of this by keeping your Firewarriors in their Devilfish as long as possible but you're still going to have some games where your Crisis suits, Broadsides, Kroot and Pathfinders all high-tale it and you just have to live with that fact.

Both my Crisis suit teams and my Broadsides all had bonding just because once you take drones it is pretty easy to get under the 50% mark and I always want those units to have a chance to regroup.


2) Tau vehicles are very vulnerable to CC. You definitely can help prevent them from being destroyed by keeping your distance when possible and when not possible 'springing the trap' by dumping out your firewarriors and trying to gun-down whatever enemy unit(s) are trying to assault you. I also think I made some mistakes by not moving my Devilfish over 6" in some cases where I was trying to eek out a few extra shots when I should have realized that moving more than 6" makes a Devilfish pretty hard to hit in CC. All it takes is for the Powerfist model to miss with his attacks and you stand a really good chance of keeping your vehicle alive for another turn as all the S4 attacks from the regular guys are only going to glance your vehicle at best.


3) Tau just lack that really nasty, hard-as-nails expensive unit that can soak a bunch of fire and wipe out enemies in CC and you really need a unit like that in a tournament to 'go get' your opponent's objective or to kill your opponent's commander/most expensive unit, etc. The lack of this unit really makes the Tau (at least how I play them) into an army that reacts to the opponent as opposed to dictating the game.

There may be some pretty wicked combos out there to turn Tau into a more offensive army, but my mind keeps gravitating towards the more reactionary tactics of shoot, shoot, shoot and then spring the trap.



In the end, I would never judge Tau based on a few tournaments. If a Tau player had managed to win first place would that automatically mean they are a great v5 tournament army? Of course not.

Any given tournament is simply a collection of players matched up against particular opponents playing particular missions. Only time will tell how Tau as an army perform and even then there is always the opportunity for a great player and a great list to have the right match-ups to win a tournament.

So I say keep your heads high and keep fighting. I know I will.

Oh and my list was:


HQ (120 points)

Shas’el (50) plasma rifle (20) airbursting fragmentation projector (20) targeting array (10) hard-wired multi-tracker (5) hard-wired target lock (5) stimulant injector (10) -- 120 points

ELITES (332 points)

Yellow crisis team leader (30) missile pod (12) plasma rifle (20) hard-wired drone controller w/ x2 shield drones (30) bonding knife (5) hard-wired multi-tracker (5). Yellow crisis suit (25) missile pod (12) plasma rifle (20) multi-tracker (5) -- 164 points

Red crisis team leader (30) missile pod (12) plasma rifle (20) flamer (4) hard-wired multi-tracker (5) hard-wired drone controller w/ x2 shield drones (30) bonding knife (5). Red crisis suit (25) missile pod (12) plasma rifle (20) multi-tracker (5) -- 168 points

TROOPS (560 points)

x12 Red firewarriors (120) -- 120 points
Red devilfish (80) smart missile system (20) disruption pods (5) targeting array (5) multi-tracker (10) -- 120 points

x11 Yellow firewarriors (110) -- 110 points

x10 Yellow kroot (70) -- 70 points

x10 Red kroot (70) -- 70 points

x10 Green kroot (70) -- 70 points

FAST ATTACK (192 points)

x6 Yellow Pathfinders (72) -- 72 points
Yellow devilfish (80) smart missile system (20) disruption pods (5) targeting array (5) multi-tracker (10) -- 120 points

HEAVY SUPPORT (545 points)

Grey hammerhead (90) railgun (50) smart missile system (20) disruption pod (5) multi-tracker (10) target lock (5)-- 180 points

Grey hammerhead (90) railgun (50) smart missile system (20) disruption pod (5) multi-tracker (10) target lock (5)-- 180 points

Yellow broadside team leader (75) advanced stabilization system (10) hard-wired drone controller w/ shield drone (15) bonding knife (5). Yellow broadside (70) advanced stabilization system (10) -- 185 points

TOTAL 1,749 POINTS

yakface wrote:1) Morale. The bane of Tau in 5th edition, morale can make Tau very tricky to play although I still wouldn't sink to taking an Ethereal. You can mitigate some of this by keeping your Firewarriors in their Devilfish as long as possible but you're still going to have some games where your Crisis suits, Broadsides, Kroot and Pathfinders all high-tale it and you just have to live with that fact.

Both my Crisis suit teams and my Broadsides all had bonding just because once you take drones it is pretty easy to get under the 50% mark and I always want those units to have a chance to regroup.

Is this enough of a problem that it might be worth considering Shadowsun for an 18" range Ld10 bubble?

It's possible to build a pretty hardcore shooty CC unit with Farsight and his retinue, though you have to give up a lot of other good stuff.

Tau were always recognised as a tricky army to run in 4e. It was always known to be difficult to get major wins, for the reason that it is harder to shoot enemy units to death than to melee them to death.

I often got maximum victory points with my tau at tournaments.

But the lists are different here. I use a weaker list against weaker lists.

Wow thanks Yakface! That was very good info to have.

onlainari wrote:I often got maximum victory points with my tau at tournaments.

But the lists are different here. I use a weaker list against weaker lists.

I'm thinking of UKGTs.

In the UK there is no Comp score so people take as hard a list as they want. Tau have as far -- as I know never placed first -- though they have often placed reasonably high in the rankings.

I've never been to a tournament. I'm just going from the results and what top Tau players say.

In any case, Assault isstronger than shooting because of various factors built into the game's structure.

My gut feeling is that because Tau are a tricky army, better tacticians take them (as with DE) and skill has a way of paying off. (I am sure all Tau players would agree )

Yakface's analysis is pretty spot on. I only have one disagreement - while I absolutely hate the capture and control mission, I think it is winnable. You'll rarely own both objectives, but you can definitely own yours and contest the other. A couple of empty Devilfish with flechettes and maybe a Piranha or two can easily put themselves in position to tank shock/contest your opponents point, with the rest of your army shooting the enemy off of yours. It's not pretty, and feels completely ridiculous, but it's workable I think.

I just wish I didn't feel forced to buy SMS for the devilfish just because of the KPs that the drones give up. They tend to move over 6" each turn when I play with them.

Kilkrazy wrote:

In the UK there is no Comp score so people take as hard a list as they want. Tau have as far -- as I know never placed first -- though they have often placed reasonably high in the rankings.

Tau are current GT champions.

The Tau player, Israel, is reputedly frighteningly good. He also took first in one of the Heats I believe.

yakface wrote:
Oh and my list was:

It's like deja vu all over again. Holy cow.

I also played Tau at the LVGT and I went 2-3 with a couple of those losses coming very close in the end and I am the epitome of a noob with Tau. I had only played 4 games TOTAL with them before the GT. You can check out my battle reports in that part of the forums.

The key in 5th is deployment, there is no one size fits all deployment anymore.

Also 40K is open list at all real tournaments, so you will know what your enemy has before you deploy.

If you have the choice you almost always want to go second so that you can react to your opponents deployment (something that I unfortunately learned later in the GT).

Kroot are awesome, a unit of 16-18 total with a mix of hounds and kroot is incredibly versatile and hardy in 5th. If your enemy is an outflanking army 18 can block an entire short board edge, if their entire army has outflanked, you line each short board edge with a unit and it is an auto massacre as they have nowhere to arrive. Kroot also take no difficult to move through forest so if you are using them as a counter attack unit their initiative isn't reduced, I5 hounds go before most things, and you are taking away your enemies charge bonus, lots of good things happen when you can kill a couple of guys before they can even attack. Big packs of Kroot also can decimate enemy vehicles with rear armor 12. Ask Blackmoor and Janthkin what happens when outflanking kroot hit stationary vehicles. 2 useless railheads for the cost of 10 kroot and 7 hounds.

In a spearhead mission, if they only have a few outflankers you deploy one unit along your short board edge and voila there are not any enemies coming in behind you. Then the opposing army has to walk a long way, thus your firepower is still valuable.

Piranhas with flechette dischargers are pretty good. They are armor 11 so most small arms simply bounce which means they have to wast heavier firepower to kill them instead of your railheads. Also they can pump out a lot of fire with burst cannons + drones or threaten mech armies with several meltas, hello target lock killing multiple vehicles from 1 squadron. Use these to limit your opponent's movement, sure you may lose them, but if it keeps their army only moving 1" for a turn then your shooting can have way more effect. Plus when these guys do get assaulted the flechettes wound EVERYTHING on a 4+ that means with a squadron you can put out a lot of hate before taking any damage, which if you moved fast they only hit on a 6 so it can be fairly limited.

Putting minimum size firewarrior squads inside a devilfish is really good for objective grabbing. They are a tough nut to crack with dpods and in a pinch 12 shots can make a dent in a lot of things.

Sniper drones are amazing, a BS4 markerlight is nothing to scoff at plus anything the actual sniper rifles do is a great bonus. Plus you use these to guarantee cover to the suits or firewarriors behind them. This is especially good if your crisis teams jsj over the snipers. A couple of these units can make it awful difficult to charge the real meat of your army if deployed correctly. And remember you can leave your opponent hanging in the wind even if they only kill one thing. You remove the spotter and the drones die...now the enemy shouldn't have any cover and he is standing right in front of a lot of deadly stuff.

In 5th edition it seems like most army that want to win need to either 1)ignore the enemies cover, 2)provide their own cover, or 3)shoot enough that cover doesn't really matter. With stealth, Tau's basic shooting ability, and markerlights ANY of those options become viable.

Remember, just because it is different doesn't mean it is bad. The new edition simply means that you have to adjust your thinking, this is especially critical when it comes to deployment.

Keep after it and share your discoveries with the rest of us for the greater good.

You probably meant rear armor 10.

Rest of the stuff sounds good.

Astalado wrote:HQ:
Farsight with 7 guards armed with Plasma and Fusion with Multi Link *fire all guns* Targeting array BS 4

Perhaps I'm missing something but I was rereading some of the earlier posts and came across that ^

How is that a possible load out? last I checked you could only have a max of 2 weapons and 1 support system or 1 weapon and 2 support systems. How I'm reading it is that you have 2 weapons and 2 support systems...If I'm reading something incorrectly please clarify for me.

thesuperiorninja wrote:

Astalado wrote:HQ:
Farsight with 7 guards armed with Plasma and Fusion with Multi Link *fire all guns* Targeting array BS 4

Perhaps I'm missing something but I was rereading some of the earlier posts and came across that ^
How is that a possible load out? last I checked you could only have a max of 2 weapons and 1 support system or 1 weapon and 2 support systems. How I'm reading it is that you have 2 weapons and 2 support systems...If I'm reading something incorrectly please clarify for me.

Bodyguard can take Hardwired systems from the wargear list. They can even take Special Issue gear, so your bodyguard can include the Cyclic Ion Blaster and the Airburst Frag Projector.

Alright some options... you have to try counterattacking....

Infiltrating stealth suit teams can flank march. Keep them in reserve and do so... If nothing else you can break up following waves.

Deep strike gun drones or crisis suits.

In dawn of war with the table half deployment... if you get choice, two squads of kroot spaced 2" apart, hmmm 3" coverage per kroot means you need two squads of 12 kroot minimum. They are a speed bump... You now have all his on board army 6" from his board edge. You lose the roll? They can infiltrate so use them instead as flankers. Won't probably win any combats but what about getting a 1 turn delay on a unit of assault troops?

Put flechette dischargers on your vehicles, let him survive your vehicles. His army is going to be relatively small so feel free to tank shock them. 3 hammerheads can make his day painful.

Pathfinders... nice to have them on the board but they have scout move so they can be flankers. Throw a hammerhead in the way of his on rushing army.

The name of the game is changed and you want to preserve your troop choices so think about how to do that. Maybe DO start it all in reserve. Tit for tat, if he goes first, you can have a rock hard vehicle army with flanking kroot, pathfinders and stealth suits.

If he is real nice and separates this attack wave, tank shock, isolate one unit and unload behind your wall of devilfish and just pummel one unit. Perhaps it is time to get some warriors with the carbines out there just for the chance of a pin. Nothing like pinning an assault army within 12" of your fire warriors.

I think the new SM codex may be more broken than all the peeing and moaning I have been listening to about the old Eldar Craftworld Codex or the Eye of Terror lists but just gotta find a way. Otherwise I will retire every xenos army and we can watch tournaments of Shrike versus Vulcan. Won't that be a fun environment for 2 or 3 years.

By broken, I mean English rules as in not playtested or thoroughly thought about how it burns other armies.

-Otherwise -
Only play in rogue traders and give anyone who plays a shrike army a 1 for playing a cheezy army list.

-Or wait -
And mellow out when they overcompensate with a new Tau Collective codex.

All the bodyguards are sash'vre, which allows them to take the team leader wargear, which allows them to take the multi-tracker hard-wired.

In concept, I like the stealth+marker drone combo, but I haven't played it, so I can't say for sure. I think that having a kinda-small squad of them looks good, as they can get ~2 marker light hits per turn, with very little chance of retaliation without deep-strikers coming in specifically to take them out.

torgoch wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

In the UK there is no Comp score so people take as hard a list as they want. Tau have as far -- as I know never placed first -- though they have often placed reasonably high in the rankings.

Tau are current GT champions.

The Tau player, Israel, is reputedly frighteningly good. He also took first in one of the Heats I believe.

That's good news!

Is it the 2008 result?

Edit: irrelevant post.

Man I need to get to bed.

Kilkrazy wrote:

torgoch wrote:

Is it the 2008 result?

The 2007-2008 season, meaning the final in March this year. 2008-09 hasn't started yet. I took 3rd in Heat 3 with Tau, so Tau took at least 25% of the places the season just ended.

That'll teach me to look at the GW website.

Still a 4th edition tournament, though. It will be interesting to see what happens under 5th edition.

Well I played my first game of 5th edition last night.

I slaughtered my opponent. I killed all but 1 guard squad, and I only lost 2 units of kroot and a hammerhead.

A unit of kroot outflanked and killed a basilisk, then killed a lascannon anti-tank support squad before dieing.

If youre really worried about SM, mainly assault squads, but termies too think about the rail rifle drones and plasma/missle crisis suits, plus kroot, and a gunline of reg fire warriors.

If youve got 30 assault termies youve got 2 choices go after the 2 kroot squads(infiltrating) which are going to steal objectives, or go after the meat of the army, the rail rifles and crisis suits can do alot of damage against 3+ save marines and if the termies come after your maine army you can shoot them with the kroot and alot of FW, plus use your hammerheads to limit movement/assault lanes, while shooting the reg tac squads with rail rifles/crisis suits, then rapid fire with FW when you can.

Against DS assault marines you can set up 1 squad of 10 or so kroot in a 20 inch line around your army forcing theme to assault the kroot then laying waste with your guns, while the other squad of kroot infiltrates.

I personally dont play tau but I know plenty of people who do and this is how I would deal with assaulty marine lists,

Without dex infront of me cuz I dont want to dig it out.
Crisis commander plasma/missile` + relevant wargear

Crisis commander plasma missile + relevant wargear

3x1 Crisis suit Team Leaders w/ plasma/missile + relevant wargear

4x10 FW squads with shasvre/bonding knife

2x10 kroot squads

9 rail rifle drones,

2 rail heads + relevant upgrades

Should be pretty close to about 1500 points, you can drop some FW if need be and the wargear on the crisis can be changed, same with the railheads, if you want you could drop 3 drones and take some kroot hounds too. In higher points you could bump the kroot up with hounds and the FW up to 12, maybe some piranhas.

Big problem is that it gives alot of KPs so you might want to put the crisis suits in 1 squad or drop a commander whatever you need.

Hope it helps all you Tau Players.

I would like to back track on a few of my comments.

Played a smaller RTT this weekend with my TAU and got 1st place!

My list real quick:

Cheap crisis commander, plasma/mp/ta, hw dc (2 sd's), hw mt
Crisis x2, team leader plasma/mp/ta, hw dc (2 sd's), hw mt, bond; plasma/mp/mt
Crisis x3 twin linked mp/flamers
Firewarriors x12 bonded, Devil fish, ta, mt, sms, fd, dp
Kroot x12
Kroot x12
Kroot x11
Hammerhead x3 rg, sms, dp, mt

My match ups really helped. Nothing with Outflank or any real serious Assault based stuff.
Necrons draw with bonus points
Chaos win with bonus points
Eldar win with bonus points

The Eldar list was pretty fierce and we went into the final game with him having a nice points lead. I basically needed a solid win to take it.

The dice were with me (not with him at all) and I tabled him pretty well. Yay me!

Nice work.

Great job!

Remember with kroot you don't have to fear outflanking as much. If you go second and they have outflanked their army, infiltrate your kroot along both board edges if you have enough, and they can't come in, auto massacre.

If you only have enough for one edge, cover that one and set up close to it. Then his army has to run the entire length of the board. Nobody likes taking that much Tau fire.

Only a true idiot would put the whole army into outflank if they saw you brought sufficient Kroot to block a table edge, let alone two. Nothing is hidden army list wise, full disclosure. The simple remedy for the outflanker is to deploy two of their own infantry units and setup near each edge. The closest you can set up with infiltrate is 18" if the other guy can see you, and with TLOS, the other guy is probably going to see you.

The other thing they could do, especially if they have scout USR (which probably is the case if they are an outflanking army), is just get an assault off on the Kroot. Suddenly the whole conga line is moving 6" up the field, giving them a hole to come in. Add to it the low number of models you will have in fighting contact, the kroot will probably get swept off the table. Now there is a big hole.

I'm not saying it not a good deterrent having kroot in your list. The other guy has to take in the possibilities, but please, lets not assume the other guy is an idiot.

Jayden 63,

When I started this thread, i made sure and posted that this was to be about Tournement level players. I agree with you on the Kroot. I have tried them and they are just as easy to get eaten by assaulters and there saves versus gunfire sucks.

I have made changes and when with the Farsight. I do not like taking farsight because I hate the idea that I have to use renegade to win.

I have won all the games I have played with the ideas you all came up with. HEre is what I have used.

1. All army deployed in reserves.
a. if I go second it takes 2 turns away from the player
b. you can kill what you can't see. On kill point mission it is a wierd thing. I have won with deep striking in and killing a couple units and he can not hit one of mine

2. Farsight and his 6 bodyguards with 6 marker drones.
a. Plasma Rifle and Fusion Gun (for tanks) with hardwire Target lock and Multilock is an great combo.
b. Six drones make sure the squad gets all to bs 6 or higher and no cover saves.
c. Sense they all get hardwires means I shot each guy seperate. Allows me to pop multiple tanks or hit multiple squads.
3. Small fire warrioir squad who come in late with fish.
a. Troop choice with armor
b. turbo boast onto objectives.
This army is not what I bought tau for. but it works. I thank you all for the help. I just wish the fluf supported the army. Now the only way to have a chance is to cheese out Farsight and drop armies.

Thank you all for your help

Um, if the Marker drones are with Farsight's unit, then Farsight's unit can't use the markerlight hits, right? I mean, they're not networked. I always thought since all shots are resolved at once, you can't use the drones to fire markerlights and boost the squad they're attached to in the same phase.

Correct.

but if its Dawn of War deployment, dont you have to have 2 troops and 1 HQ on the board?

Stelek wrote:Correct.

Markerdrone markerlights are networked.

thehod wrote:but if its Dawn of War deployment, dont you have to have 2 troops and 1 HQ on the board?

No.

umm guys....page 37 of the codex.

Marker Drone - Network Markerlight, Targeting array

They are networked. Drone are the only one that have networks.

Astalado wrote:
They are networked. Drone are the only one that have networks.

Skyray too iirc.

What do people think is the right size for mounted fire warriors? Minimum? 8? 9 for break test purposes?

I like minimum size firewarrior squads mounted, I don't think that you gain much from 2 extra guys, and 20 points times 3 or 4 units goes a long way toward another unit or fleshing out pathfinders etc.

I run my squads 3 to 4 stronge and only six warrioirs. I more use it as a tank who can move 24 inches and take objectives. its like a 60pt upgrade for the fish. only one has to stay to take the position

Tau tanks can't ever move more than 12".

Sorry... you are right.. I also play eldar.. okay still 12 moving fish to objectives. Still not bad

Rosicrucian wrote:
What do people think is the right size for mounted fire warriors? Minimum? 8? 9 for break test purposes?

I think it depends on your Fish.

I ran a 12 man squad with a decked out Warfish and had pretty good success with it. I wanted to be sure if I was going to be in the 18-24" effective range of the tank, I could drop a lot of shooty out if I needed to. The 31 S5 shots really helped with units that were getting inside my Disruption pod range.

I have run a lot of cheap fish with small Firewarrior squads, but have not had much luck with them. They did not seem to do much for me. It was nice to be able to move 12", capture and essentially block 3" of the objective, but that was all it really did for me. Kind of expensive for a unit that is going to strictly be for scoring and minimal offensive. I found I had to chase it around with a Hammerhead to protect it. Especially since I was using its better movement to capture farther objectives, which always seem to be close to your opponent.

methoderik wrote:

Rosicrucian wrote:
What do people think is the right size for mounted fire warriors? Minimum? 8? 9 for break test purposes?

I think it depends on your Fish.

I ran a 12 man squad with a decked out Warfish and had pretty good success with it. I wanted to be sure if I was going to be in the 18-24" effective range of the tank, I could drop a lot of shooty out if I needed to. The 31 S5 shots really helped with units that were getting inside my Disruption pod range.

I have run a lot of cheap fish with small Firewarrior squads, but have not had much luck with them. They did not seem to do much for me. It was nice to be able to move 12", capture and essentially block 3" of the objective, but that was all it really did for me. Kind of expensive for a unit that is going to strictly be for scoring and minimal offensive. I found I had to chase it around with a Hammerhead to protect it. Especially since I was using its better movement to capture farther objectives, which always seem to be close to your opponent.

Explain this "Warfish" to me. 31 S5 shots is something too awesome for me not to inquire about.

Warfish = Devilfish with SMS, targeting array, and multitracker. The tank itself doesn't have that many shots, it's 6+3 from it's weapons (SMS+burst cannon), but then 24 shots from the fire warriors inside (which makes it 33 IIRC).

I figured the tank itself wouldn't have 33 shots

Fire Warriors can't shoot out of the Devilfish, I thought...?

Seamus O'Shank wrote:I figured the tank itself wouldn't have 33 shots

Fire Warriors can't shoot out of the Devilfish, I thought...?

Is this another question you know the answer to?

Obviously, I guess to me at least, I am talking about the Fish's S5 + the 12 disembarking, rapid firing Firewarriors.

tzeentchling wrote:Warfish = Devilfish with SMS, targeting array, and multitracker. The tank itself doesn't have that many shots, it's 6+3 from it's weapons (SMS+burst cannon), but then 24 shots from the fire warriors inside (which makes it 33 IIRC).

Is the SMS Heavy 6? Wow! To think this whole time I have been playing it as Heavy 4, man I feel really stupid (happens a lot).

*Edit: Just checked, SMS are Heavy 4, so it is 7 shots from the DF and 24 from the FW for a total of 31.

Astalado wrote:
2. Farsight and his 6 bodyguards with 6 marker drones.
a. Plasma Rifle and Fusion Gun (for tanks) with hardwire Target lock and Multilock is an great combo.
b. Six drones make sure the squad gets all to bs 6 or higher and no cover saves.
c. Sense they all get hardwires means I shot each guy seperate. Allows me to pop multiple tanks or hit multiple squads.

I hope you're not moving and firing with those marker drones. Drones move as the suits they are controlled by and Tau Crisis suits cannot move and fire heavy weapons (that restriction is in the Tau Crisis suit rules), ergo marker drones also cannot move and fire heavy weapons.

So even though the Main Rulebook gives Crisis suits Relentless, the Tau codex takes it away. Makes you wonder why they even put it in the main rulebook in the first place.

Ahh, more GW love for the Zenos.

yakface wrote:
I hope you're not moving and firing with those marker drones. Drones move as the suits they are controlled by and Tau Crisis suits cannot move and fire heavy weapons (that restriction is in the Tau Crisis suit rules), ergo marker drones also cannot move and fire heavy weapons.

I'm pretty sure that its their "Unit Type" and not "Movement Type" that is "As owner" making them Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) and thus relentless. I'm not sure the that the RAW causes the weapon restrictions on XV8s to transfer along with unit type as "Crisis Suit" is not a unit type. Also, it would just seem weird if stealth marker drones could move and fire but crisis ones could not.

lambadomy is correct.

The crisis suits (who have zero heavy weapons) cannot fire heavy weapons (that's nice) but drones aren't listed in the Tau Codex...and the drones get relentless in the new rules off the suits.

methoderik wrote:

Seamus O'Shank wrote:I figured the tank itself wouldn't have 33 shots

Fire Warriors can't shoot out of the Devilfish, I thought...?

Is this another question you know the answer to?

Obviously, I guess to me at least, I am talking about the Fish's S5 + the 12 disembarking, rapid firing Firewarriors.

Of course. Just wanted to clarify what you meant

I thought for a split second that there had been a FAQ that allowed FW to fire out of Devilfish.

Yes... I checked it to.. The drones can fire while moving due to jump packs. thanks all for checking that.

I've been following this thread rather intently and just want to thank the people who have offered help because it has realy helped me understand my army, thanks

Even though I won four, drew one, and lost one, it's my opinion that Tau are very difficult to win a tournament with.

All of my wins were small. I lost to rhino spam dark angels (that player won the tournament), and it was a big loss.

Stupid technicality, I know, but markerlights cannot raise BS above 5, per Tau codex RAW. Not a big deal in 4th, but it's an interesting limitation in 5th.

Rmeju

Yeah but markerlights can still remove cover saves...a nasty piece of work in it's own right.

Funnily enough, I don't have any in my army...

I have recently played my tau in 2 fifth edition tournaments and have come to one resounding conclusion about their winnability: The tau troops can not hold objectives.

I play a hybrid list. Crisis teams, devilfish mounted firewarriors, kroot, hammerheads and broadsides. I hit my opponent hard with everything at once. When I start in on a unit I don't stop until it is destroyed or I have run out of stuff to fire. But every game I have lost has come down to one simply fact: when my opponent wants to push me off of objectives they can do so at will. I have had firewarriors in cover sitting on objectives. My opponents just use weight of fire to beat their toughness 3, 4+ saves. I have had firewarriors in devilfish sitting on objectives. The ability to hit the rear armor means it gets assaulted and destroyed too easily then the firewarriors are exposed again. Also the rule that you can assault the transported unit after you destroy their vehical hurts bad. Too many times has a meltagun gotten inside the 12" disruption pod area of protection to see the fish get destoyed and the firewarriors assaulted. Kroot are almost a joke for holding abjectives. They are good the turn they outflank and assault but after that they die in droves. If the objective is not in the woods the kroot have no chance of holding on to it, and if my opponent has any flamers then kroot are a waste of points.

Tau were made for fourth edition. All their special rules were based off that ruleset. Without it they are seriously hurting and are at a major disadvantage against every army book that has come out for fifth edition. The main problem is that they are too expensive for what they do on the battle field in fifth edition. Firewarriors need to come with gernades standard. The base devilfish needs its cost cut in half (upgrades are fairly priced, except for the disruption pods which needs to be about 15 points). The kroot need to have the stealth and move through cover special rules. Pathfinders need to be troops and the manditory devilfish removed. Gundrones need to be troops, but not count as troop choices (like demons in CSM). Vespids need 2 attacks base. These are the bare minimum that is needed to make them competitive in fifth editon, and more than likely they would still lose to the top tier armies of Orks and new SM. I am fearful of what a new IG, Necron, and Dark Eldar are going to do to current Tau once they get a fifth edition revamp to bing those inline.

I agree that FWs suck at holding objectives, that's why I always try to grab objectives late in the game. Use your firepower to clear any or most of the enemy troops in the vicinity of the objective and then fly in with your devilfish mounted FWs on turn four or five to claim. If there are still some enemy troops claiming the objective use a squad of XV8s with TL-flamers to clear the remains out. And if you don't think that's enough unload your FWs and rapid fire into the enemy troops. This would probably require you to fly in on turn four since you would probably have to move your FWs within 3'' after you killed of the remaining enemy troops.

HEy all....
one way to make sure your fire warriors can hold objectives. Do as OniGemba says, but add one thing. I have one eveygame I have played this tatics. BUT the whole army in reserve.

yes you come in piece mail. but you do not give those assault armies the knowledge where you going to be so they can not mass on one objective. keep them guessing. deep strike crisses units around objective late in the game and clean it up and run a fish with fw to take it. but Zacarius. I agree with all you say that the tau need, but untill then. This thread has shown to me you need to play traitor tau with Farsight and play drop Tau with mech tau fw

After half a dozen games of 5th with both Farsight and a mech tau army, I decided to go back to Eldar. There I can play the same army I played in 4th Ed with my Tau.

If I wanted to castle in a corner and take mediocre troops in order to take objectives, I'd play Imperial Guard.

Obviously, some players have been able to compete in a 5th edition tourney, but I'm not one of them. If the rules don't let me play the army I want to play, I either don't play or choose an army that does let me play that way.

I don't know what you were expecting leaving firewarriors in cover to hold an objective. We're not guard, we can't afford to leave anything as exposed as that.

*I* never said I was exclusively putting FCW in cover to hold an objective. But you need to capture those objectives somehow.

I've sat the FCW in 'fishs in my mech lists. All it means is I move around and fire 4 shots at 24" until my fish go down.

Given the choice between shooting at my vehicles and shooting at my 3 crisis suits that can almost always be shot at, my opponents simply take out the crisis suits and then move on to the vehicles.

One can't play the VP denial game one could in 4th. If I am only shooting 12-20 shots in a turn I'm not going to win.

Dude, I hate to say I agree with you in soms ways. I now have a Eldar Army. I wish the old days of the Tau Empire was able to be played. Tau Gun Lines and Visped was a 80% winner. Now tau at this level can not get more of a 50%. Next week I am taking it to tournement. We will see how I do.

The game has changed and *I* have adapted by moving on to a new army. I always relied on soft scores to make me competitive in tournies, but I have not been able to win a game without deploying a gun line and keeping my vehicles as far away from the board edge as possible. That's simply not the way I want to play.

When there's a good consensus on how to play Tau at a competitive tourney, let me know. I'd be willing to put my ego aside in order to learn, but I'm not seeing anything too practical on the boards.