To the staff (not all but a significant number) and most especially the managers of the two Games workshops I have visited recently, some sage advice on how to treat me.

I am 32 years old, I am a senior manager in my place of work, I am in a long term relationship. I do not require patronising, I do not enjoy attempts to draw me into a pissing contest on Games Workshop nostalgia, I am not 14 so please do not address me as though I might be, do not 'tell me' what I need to buy, aggressive sales techniques are more likely to cause me to leave than make a purchase, if I tell you I'm thinking of a CoS army for Warhammer please don't tell me how its not allowed in the shop or we'll argue about Games Workshop's stance on orphaned armies. I have no intention of playing in the shop, tables are too ruddy small and I swear, oh and you won't let me cause I'll be using an army your company designed then disallowed?!?.

Do Not Shout At Me, you may have been told on your 'management training journey' that it's showing your enthusiasm and I'm certain the kids dig it, but I do not want to be shouted at, I don't get shouted at in other shops. Do not believe that because many young people hang on your word in the shop that I will do so, I can be expected to challenge information I am presented with and voice my displeasure as a consumer when Games Workshop do something I do not care for ie:

GWM: Oh YEAH! New Daemonettes are SO GREAT!!!!!
Me: Yes, I do like many of the new boxes GW are doing, plastics are greatly improved, I did really like the previous metal ones tho, not the bald, huge claw ones but the whispy tentacle ones just prior to...
GWM: NONONONONO!! They were rubbish, you get LOADS in this box SEEEE!!
Me: Yes, I know they work out alot cheaper and they are good I'm just saying I liked the previous o...
GWM: No! They were Crap mate!
Me: ok, thanks, bye now.
I wander away pondering if he ever said they were crap when they sold them.

So, a polite request, I am an adult, change tack when you approach me, chat, be amiable by all means but do so in a way that suggests you are capable of understanding your customer and not preaching from the GW sales mantra they subliminally drilled into your brain.

Thank you

Yes. How dare an employee in a shop do his job.

What a swine! And perhaps if you tried saying 'no, really, I'm okay thank you' you might have gotten on a bit better.

Well, if you need to tell him 'please don't shout at me' he's not doing his job well.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Yes. How dare an employee in a shop do his job.

...badly?
I fully understand a shopkeeper in a shop should be selling, I'm suggesting the approach is a poor one since they fail to sell me anything and put me off returning. The entire attitude from GW central is one of seeking to get the older players to come back, ever since Mordheim things have been improving as far as I can see, but then you walk into a shop and it's 'Red Age' all over again.

If the employee was really acting that way, then they were doing their job poorly. However, like any company, there will be good staff and there will be bad staff. Maybe that guy was new. Maybe he was having an off day.

Was is true is that the attitude you encountered is not the mandate set by retail senior management.

At my store, if a player wants to use the CoS rules, and his opponent is fine with it, what's the problem? If it's a quiet night and the tables are unused, why can't specialist games be played?

Please don't assume most staff are like the ones you encountered. Most of us are enthusiastic hobbyists who want to genuinely help you.

ClarenceL

The problem is that the atitudes and behavior reported by the OP in this thread are commonplace. I've expereinced them myself in the GW stores I have been in and reports of similar incidents abound on forums like this. But GW apologists like to write this all off as "lies" and "exagerations".

Most troubling is the attitude toward the latest new toys vs. older models that the OP mentioned. This is exactly the sort of crap that GW loves to foster amongst it's employees and customers. Anyone else recall the awful "40k revised" series of articles that apeared in the US White Dwarf soon after 4th ed. 40k hit the stores?

TR

Naz, I don't know where you are getting your facts from.

I work for GW and no one has told me I can't admit I work for the company. Dave Taylor and Chris Go...something post here as well and openly admit to working for GW US.

Like I said earlier, there are good staff and there are bad staff.

Yes, we promote our product, be it the AOBR, or the new marine Spearhead, or the Rohan Warrior box.

Yes, we want you to come to our events and have fun.

Yes, we are here to push sales.

Some people do the right way, and some people do it the wrong way.

Yes, some stores are designed to market the hobby to new players, so they are focused on intro games and starter boxes. Other stores have different priorities.

We try to serve veteran customers as best we can. But the honest truth is that veterans can be the hardest group to help because generally,

-they don't need as much help with modeling
-they don't need as much help with painting
-they don't need as much help with gaming

Heck, many veterans know more about the hobby than we do. But we encourage veterans to come into the shop to build/paint/play and refine their skills. The best thing we can do for veterans is inform them about new releases as we get the information (have you heard much about Space Marines or the Warriors of Chaos) and invite them back to events tailored to their level (campaigns, tournaments, gaming nights...etc.)

I'm not saying this gets done perfectly in every store. I'm sure it doesn't, in fact. But many of us try our best. Good gaming!

ClarenceL

Naz, why on earth are you pulling this stuff out of your ass?

The OP is correct, most GW staff act like a bunch of asses.

What GW should do is to sell a "Hardened Veteran" button.

If a Customer comes in wearing one, then that is an mandatory sign for the staff to lay off, because he almost certainly doesn't need a damn thing from them, if he does, he'll ask them. But annoying the crap out of him is only going to cost them a sale.

Clarence, thank you for the reply.
I entirely sympathise with the difficulties faced by GW staff when dealing with 'golden oldies', I also think there is a great deal of GW bashing for bashing's sake and no doubt there are plenty of GW staff who grind their teeth and sigh in resignation every time
'Veteran Player X' just pops in to tell them how crap everything is now, how they are an evil corporate monster with less social awareness than Macdonalds and how he remembers when all this was fields...

However, I have also seen and been treated to, a poor customer experience, my original post is perhaps in the hopes someone from GW will take this criticism constructively and a memo gets sent out to the effect that store managers are not the games designers, they do not hold sway and when I am in the shop, I expect to be treated with courtesy , not be spoken down to. I can well understand how, due to being 'the voice of the rules' and the face of GW's authority and giving out instruction to young customers in the shop can lead to someone assuming they have more clout than they actually have. The phrase starting 'big fish...' seems to be appropriate I think.

I visit three GW stores in London, the Richmond branch (until it closed down) the Plaza Oxford Street and the High Street Kensington.

I have had perfectly satisfactory experiences in all of them.

I don't deny anyone else's bad experiences, just saying that it doesn't happen all the time.

My wife won't go into GW stores because of this type of behavior being so commonplace. She has no problem with the FLGS, however, since they aren't continuously trying to shove product at her (or me, for that matter). I'm done shopping or playing at GW stores- it just isn't worth the aggravation.

To the OP: You chose a public internet forum to expose your disappointment, what were you thinking? If you want something done about this you need to start an internet petition, it's the only way to make them listen.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:To the staff (not all but a significant number) and most especially the managers of the two Games workshops I have visited recently, some sage advice on how to treat me.

I am 32 years old, I am a senior manager in my place of work, I am in a long term relationship. I do not require patronising, I do not enjoy attempts to draw me into a pissing contest on Games Workshop nostalgia, I am not 14 so please do not address me as though I might be, do not 'tell me' what I need to buy, aggressive sales techniques are more likely to cause me to leave than make a purchase, if I tell you I'm thinking of a CoS army for Warhammer please don't tell me how its not allowed in the shop or we'll argue about Games Workshop's stance on orphaned armies. I have no intention of playing in the shop, tables are too ruddy small and I swear, oh and you won't let me cause I'll be using an army your company designed then disallowed?!?.

Do Not Shout At Me, you may have been told on your 'management training journey' that it's showing your enthusiasm and I'm certain the kids dig it, but I do not want to be shouted at, I don't get shouted at in other shops. Do not believe that because many young people hang on your word in the shop that I will do so, I can be expected to challenge information I am presented with and voice my displeasure as a consumer when Games Workshop do something I do not care for ie:

GWM: Oh YEAH! New Daemonettes are SO GREAT!!!!!
Me: Yes, I do like many of the new boxes GW are doing, plastics are greatly improved, I did really like the previous metal ones tho, not the bald, huge claw ones but the whispy tentacle ones just prior to...
GWM: NONONONONO!! They were rubbish, you get LOADS in this box SEEEE!!
Me: Yes, I know they work out alot cheaper and they are good I'm just saying I liked the previous o...
GWM: No! They were Crap mate!
Me: ok, thanks, bye now.
I wander away pondering if he ever said they were crap when they sold them.

So, a polite request, I am an adult, change tack when you approach me, chat, be amiable by all means but do so in a way that suggests you are capable of understanding your customer and not preaching from the GW sales mantra they subliminally drilled into your brain.

Thank you

???

What do you expect? When you go into a GW shop, your a Dupe that is ripe for the picking. If they don't nick you then they arn't going to think they are doing thier job.
Do what I do, tell the lackeys to have a nice hot cup of S.T.F.U., and if they don'ttop !@#$ing with you that you will turn thier store into a gymnasium.

In GW stores, you are eternally 14. go ahead and act like it. Call out the redshirts and smack one or two around.

!@#$ GW's weaksauce stores and thier subpop !@#$ing employees.

As someone who works at a store i really do need to ask this....


How often do you hear about a good member of staff?

Sure you hear about bad ones all the time- but people do like to complain (heck I've stopped reading most posts on here that I know will just degenerate into a "how poo" fest)

I find it quite insulting that some people*looks above* feel the need to lump all staff members together as being the "bad" kind. Heck I'll admit they are out there- hell I still avoid a store near me as a staff member having gone there as a customer and had the "bad" treatment including being told i needed glue to go with my book....

Is that really the norm? No
does the story stick out because of the absurity, the humour and the down right stupidity of it? Yeah

But does that mean that all staff members are the same?
Hell no


I've literally just come in from a busy saturday working in an "average" GW store- I have talked to probably about 100 people over the course of the day- and I can happily say I have done what I thought was best for them. There are several staff members I know who are like this- and some store managers really foster this sense of doing the best customer service we can. This goes on top of sales training- which if taken too literally can lead to some of the "bad" behaviour some people point out.

Just today, I taught a kid how to pin his models, I then taught a vet who had spent 20+ years playing and painting the same skill having basically understood he'd never asked out of embaressment.
I undercoated a gentleman's highelf army because he lives in a flat (apartment) and doesn't have anywhere he can spray at home
I taught lots of people different hobby skills to the point that it makes my head spin (and even had to check with the painting guide/ other staff members to make sure it was the right highlighting colours etc...)
I've offered advice on army building, painting, playing, tactics and who knows what else.
I introduced a few people to the hobby today, a few didn't find it their cup of tea and I left it at that
A few enjoyed it and will be back tommorow for the beginner sessions to have a few more goes and see if it is something they think they could carry on with
And one of them has started his first army and I was more than happy to start helping him put together and paint his first orks (not a kid btw)
I even sorted out a situation with a cheating sod in a game subtley without causing a fuss.

I know what tone to use with different people, to identify as best i can where they are in the hobby and what help i can provide them- and will back off if asked (oh and sometimes I'm told to back off quite....erm... well not nicely)

And yes I sold some stuff today- I guess thats the "work" i did today where I "pushed" sales- although the cycle i've been told to use is establish what is wanted, recommend a product that fits and confirm that its the thing the person wants- pretty standard sales stuff apparently- and i'll recomment what I think fits what your after- even if its not what i'd personally do (hey even i don't like some sculpts, but some people love 'em)

Heck most of the day I'm more than happy to just talk to people about their hobby. I hear all sorts of stories, people who have just started who haven't a clue whats going on, all the way to veteran players who look down upon me because of the shirt i'm wearing. At the end of the day I want to hear how your enjoying your hobby, and what, if anything, I can do to improve it and help you get the most out of it. Sometimes this is with a product, sometimes its with a bit of hobby help or sometimes its just a simple case of hearing your ideas for a conversion/paintjob/army etc...


Why do I do all this?
Because i'm passionate about the hobby- I enjoy my job- I enjoy the fact that I basically get paid to talk to people and help them out with one of my hobbies. I do the job to the best of my abilities- and even on my off days i'll try my best- heck i'll even bend rules abit if its the "right thing to do" because at the end of the day i'm a person in the hobby too and that becomes before my job- it just so happens most of the time they go hand in hand.

<mini rant over>

So yeah- I'm sorry you had a crappy experience with a member of staff- we aren't all like that- and more often than not they are just hobbiest like you who just happen to be running a store. So try and keep an open mind- especialy if its a store or staff member you haven't seen before- you might be pleasantly surprised

I haven't read the thread yet, but I deleted out all of Naz' posts at his request. Just so you know why there are holes in the conversation now.

Grot 6 wrote:???

What do you expect? When you go into a GW shop, your a Dupe that is ripe for the picking. If they don't nick you then they arn't going to think they are doing thier job.
Do what I do, tell the lackeys to have a nice hot cup of S.T.F.U., and if they don'ttop !@#$ing with you that you will turn thier store into a gymnasium.

In GW stores, you are eternally 14. go ahead and act like it. Call out the redshirts and smack one or two around.

!@#$ GW's weaksauce stores and thier subpop !@#$ing employees.

Maybe they treat you like you are 14 because you are 14.

Most of the time I have a great experience in the Dublin store. But just recently I had a slightly irritating experience. I was picking up AOBR and the staff had said that I could swap my marines for orks, which I thought was pretty sweet. I popped in the day before release and asked again, and the staff said they would gaurantee that I would get the swap. So I was pretty happy. I mentioned that I wouldn't be in until after lunch, it's all fine.

I head in, and the staff are all understandably frazzled. I pick up my box, and say "Can I do the swap?" the staff member laughs at me, and says "You wanted to swap, you should have been here at 9AM!"

I think to myself: "Interesting, no-one mentioned time to me before, except when I brought it up to say that it was not an issue."
But I figured, feck it, it's still a good deal, and the swap was just a bonus. I may as well buy it anyway. I just thought it was pretty bad form on the staff to make promises and then break them, and then respond in a relatively hostile tone to my enquiries. But at the same time, long day dealing with kids, I'd probably be snappy.
On the whole, they're nice chaps, and they have to do all that greeting and stuff anyway, so I don't mind it.

MY GW store experience varies wildly (and it's the same store).

Some days, it's a "Hey, welcome, can we help you find anything?" followed by a "Have you heard about/seen the new..." while I'm checking out.

A good story: One day, I needed acid spore mines. No blisters of such things, of course, but they dug through their in-store bitz collection and sold me 10. That was great.

Other days, it's much more aggressive, and they won't back off and let me browse. That's not so helpful.

A bad story: Once, when my wife came in with me, they asked if she played, then wanted to know why she didn't play, and pushed the conversation until she was defensive as to why she doesn't play. That was not great.

On the whole, I have fewer negative experiences in GW stores than I do in restaurants.

I dont know why they have a "used car salesman" approach. People who play the game do not need to be told how great the game is.

TRUE STORY

I worked for GW back in 97-98 and while I was 2nd in box set/paint set sales in the district, I got fired for not making "machine gun" noises when running demo's. (They said my demo's werent "enthusiastic" enough, so they fired me)

My problem was that I approached everyone that entered the store as an intelligent person that could understand the values of the hobby without me acting like a brainwashed moron. A sales technique that approached people intelligently and was informative of what the hobby was about instead of, "BUY THESE BECAUSE THEY'RE NEW AND THE COOLEST!!!!"

2ND IN SALES out of like 4-5 total stores...I walked into work one day to find the district manager there (some fat idiot that used to YELL at the employees in the back room, an illegal practice in the US by the way, the same as harrassment) telling the Manager to come out and let me go. Unethusiastic demo's WAS the reason, no write-ups, never counciled, none of the normal "get rid of this guy" business practices.

Working for GW was a nightmare back in those days....prolly still is.

Because games workshop employees peruse this forum and care about your bad experience with lower level functionaries in a place they have never been too.

I used to sell electronics at sears, and I can pretty much assure you that the "pro who knew everything" was the biggest tool possible to work with. You don't need help? Cool, get out of my face about it. It's my job to follow you around and get you to buy something. It's a store. They are there to drum up enthusiasm in new customers, as a bearded vet you should just be able to ignore it, buy your crap and get out (as you have stated you prefer to do).


People who "know what they want and want to be left alone" suck the fun out of sales jobs. Not everyone is there to push a margin, some people just like to help you find what you may be looking for.

Well, it is hard not to be inaccurate when making blanket statements. I think the "It's my/our/their job" argument is a bit too broad for this context as the OP is saying that the sales technique could be refined, not that a GW employee should never be friendly or approach a potential customer. But it certainly not their job to be aggressive to the point of annoyance. Nor is every GW employee a pushy mook who won't leave you alone and offers lame advice solely designed to make you buy much more than you intended.

From my experience with the GW's around LA, the staff do follow the script without fail each time I come into the store. For good or bad, they do follow training.
"Hey man how you doing? Looking for anything in particular? What army you play?"
At this point, all reasonable sales pitch. But then it goes into
"Oh cool, cool. So, do you have <insert item here>? Oh you do, awesome, awesome. How bout <insert item here>?"
and this continues until we reach
"Oh you don't? Oh man, I never field my army without at least 3 of those. These are just about the best thing for that army, we have some over here you should really put them in and you'll see the difference." Now sometimes this might be true, but when I come in for a box of IG heavy weapons and an employee tries to sell me 3 sentinels since "man, sentinels are like heavy weapons but way more survivable and maneuverable. Man I'd never take a heavy weapon if I could just take a sentinel." It can be a bit frustrating. Or "Yah, horde orks are great, but nothing says stompy like the full 9 killa kans and 2 dreads. I can put them on order, you can pay now and pick em up in a week, how cool is that?" Especially since sometimes, I do mean sometimes, a particularly motivated employee will then try to get me to start a new army, LOTR, and preorder products for an army I don't yet own. The cycle will only end with a major purchase or a slightly (or not so slightly) irritated remark.

Again, it is their job to move product, just as it is GW's job to make profit. But what bothers me most about GW sales pitch is that too many times, across too many stores, I've had employees try to sell me items not because I could use it, but because they wanted to hit their margins for the week and that is all I was, a mark rather than part of the GW family. It is one thing to sell stuff, but as a more established player, they should be aware that if I'm in the store, I am going to purchase something. I understand the more enthusiastic and aggressive sales pitch to a totally new player, but even then that often crosses the line from sales pitch to annoyance.

To be fair, I've met employees who I've enjoyed talking too, who got me to buy stuff but their advice was sound and in some cases, got me to buy something cheaper but more useful than what I originally planned to purchase. That is customer service because in that moment I felt like I was part of that GW community rather than a nameless guy with some disposable income.

And yes, I've worked retail as well. It was my job to sell games and movies to folk, but after the initial "Hey guys, anything I can help you with today?" it is pretty clear if they want help or if you are just going to be fodder for a forum write up. The problem that many GW employees have, from my experience, is that the people hired or the policy, not sure which and don't have the first hand experience to say which, is that they either do not see or do not care about this distinction.

Sometimes you feel like bantering, sometimes you just want a heavy weapon platoon.

Having been to a fair number of GW's around the world, GW Canada seems to have consistently non-super-pushy sales staff. UK was ok, US are pushy.

@Deadshane. From what I recall, in those days at GW US, there was this manager 'exercise' at a manager's meeting, that each manager pick one employee from their store, and let them go. Guys were like.. "youve got to be joking" "nope, pick one employee and let them go, you pick the reason, but you MUST do it" And so, managers HAD to go back to their stores and arbitrarily pick a guy, and go through the whole ordeal of letting someone go, simply because some asshat big-wig thought it was a good exercise to get managers not gun-shy abut dropping the hammer, and also having the Commisar Effect on the staff that remained.

Thankfully, those days (and people) seem long gone by now, maybe you were 'the guy'

I agree with ShumaGorath.

It sounds like the OP had a bad experience and is frankly just "whining" on an internet forum. If the OP was really that disturbed by the experience, the best thing to do (besides posting sweeping generalizations on an internet board) is to go to the store manager of the particular establishment, and calmly explain how the staff member made your experience unpleasant.

Problem solved.

I have good experience with the GW Hamburg I store. They don't apply an aggressive selling techique to Veteran players. The store manager even allowed me to leave my trunk (Eldar army) in his store overnight.

There's a collective holding of breath each time my local store gets a new manager. Their effect upon their staff is profound. Luckily, my local manager is sound, and would talk about anything other than GW with just as much interest.

I hate being bothered at GW stores, but the truth is many of the shops attract a certain type of male. Don't give me flak for this, because I don't know anyone who hasn't run into some sort of weirdo in a GW store. These guys take manager sycophancy to a new level, and ruin mature players fun immidiately. For the people walking past a the shop, to see and employee howling on a gaming table is not an incentive to investigate the store, nor what it stocks.

Mercifully, my local staff are fine (for the most part), but that's because they know my face. It's getting to that stage that can be a challenge.

I was paying for some SM scouts recently and the guy behind the counter made the usual 'Hey, Space Marines! What chapter are you working on?' line. When I mentioned it was Relictors, he almost did a double-take before confessing he always zoned out at that point in the script because 'everyone always says Ultramarines'.

Once the script had been torn up, we had a decent little conversation.

For the record;

I don't expect to be left alone, I expect someone working in sales to aid me in the shop, talk to me and learn alittle about me and try to sell me more things/increase my interest in other lines the store sells.

This is not a 'GW is ebil' thread, I'm not here to knock the company, as I've said in previous posts, I think they have come on a great way in recent years and everything I've seen has been good.

I am simply stating that the local stores I visited were all about the hard sales in a manner that really was counter-productive and elicited a negative reaction in me and others I've spoken with.

BTW to Whitedragon - did you actually read any of my posts above? I made no such generalisations and have offered counterpoints to my own issue raised. Perhaps re-reading carefully might allow you to post something meaningful to the discussion. The example WAS the manager...

Complaints (rational and non-abusive ones) are free feedback to a company and if taken onboard and acted on, can reduce the level of future complaint, improving customer service. I cannot see how the suggestion to GW that during it's staff inductions, a change in approach for older customers cannot be included.

Here's a nice manager reply I'd like to see.

"Excuse me, does this look like a babysitting service? Buy something or get out."

I've NEVER had a problem with GW store employees. They've always been polite and helpful. If you go there more than once they generally don't harass you. Their "optimism" is a sales technique and beats the lame teenager routine you find in many outlets. Seriously, if you're getting into arguments either fluff, rules, or model wise maybe you should reconsider the amount of time you're spending in a store that is trying to make money. So again, buy something or get out!

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:???

What do you expect? When you go into a GW shop, your a Dupe that is ripe for the picking. If they don't nick you then they arn't going to think they are doing thier job.
Do what I do, tell the lackeys to have a nice hot cup of S.T.F.U., and if they don'ttop !@#$ing with you that you will turn thier store into a gymnasium.

In GW stores, you are eternally 14. go ahead and act like it. Call out the redshirts and smack one or two around.

!@#$ GW's weaksauce stores and thier subpop !@#$ing employees.

Maybe they treat you like you are 14 because you are 14.

Hey, GAY. look before you step next time. A post like yours opens alot of doors for me, but im going to stay on my side of the fence.

I'm probibly generalizing that GW employees over on this side of the pond are pretty notorious for being obtuse overselling !@#$'s with a full bag of get a clue.
If you're not, then you are the exception rather then the rule.
You are probibly the guys that need to get your @#$% friends in line who give people the general opinion.

What I don't mind seeing is someone who doesn't mind having a conversation, but lays off of the " SO and SO is the flavor of the month, so YOU HAVE TO GET SOME OF THEM!"
crap that is the picturebook example of an overbearing asshat that is trying too hard to make a sale.

GAY, you get a pass right now, because in point of fact, I'm trying to turn over a new leaf and I already see how this thread is all in all tame enough to stay civil.

Grot 6, your posts in this thread are inflammatory and insulting. You:

1. Recommend acting like a jerk -- (In GW stores, you are eternally 14. go ahead and act like it. Call out the redshirts and smack one or two around.)
2. Are skirting too close to the no profanity line -- (We know what STFU and the "cartoon swearing" mean)
3. You say you're turning over a new leaf, but your reference to MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy is obviously you calling him gay -- (seriously, he gets a pass? You're insulting him, in your mind, in the same breath!)
4. Got called out for being immature and responded rudely

You generally have a bad attitude, but your behavior in this thread has put you over the line.

Hey, GAY. look before you step next time. A post like yours opens alot of doors for me, but im going to stay on my side of the fence.

edited by JFRAZ as being offensive

2. Are skirting too close to the no profanity line -- (We know what STFU and the "cartoon swearing" mean)

I'm pretty sure the repeated capitalization of "GAY" is enough over the profanity line to warrant a response other than a coy talking too.

JFRAZ note: OK PEOPLE ENOUGH MOVE ON

Honestly most of the GW stores Ive been to have been great, my local one in Milwaukee( go check it out if youre around there tell em menzer sent you they know me) is run by a buddy of mine who takes all of his veteran players(well not all but the decent ones) and talks to them all once a week and tries to figure out what works best and what doesn't, and the rest of the workers are great too, never knew em before a few years ago, all 3 are friends of mine now and I live in florida currently and am in the army so am rarely able to stop in.

The reason i said all that was because I think the generalizations werent really relevant, I agree with all the posters who say you get more good then bad and just wanted to tell a story of the good who actually treats the vets well, instead of treating them like they are 14.

That said it is a buisiness, you can run a game store 2 ways as far as Im concerened(and this comes not from me but from the aforementioned manager of the GW store and other managers of game stores Ive known/know) 1) as a place to hang out, where the buisiness aspect is secondary or 2) as a place to sell stuff primarily while gaming is secondary.
Both can be effective and make money, but GW is first and foremost out to make money and not be a place to hang out, so I think everyone just needs to keep that in mind as well.

Grot, gay isn't an insult, and complaining about being treated like a 14 year old, and then acting like one in the same thread is hardly conducive to a coherent point.

To quote an anti-homophobia advert in the UK, some people are gay. Get over it.

And if indeed you are fourteen, I believe one of those ghastly emo bands released a song entitled 'Gay is not a synonym for lame'.

The OP more or less sums up why I go out of my way to avoid visiting GW stores. The employees are aggressive to the point of being annoying and I'd rather not have to answer "no" to a couple dozen sales attempts whenever I buy a new paint pot. A couple extra subway stops to the local game store was more than worth it back when I lived in Boston.

I have had similar experiences as the OP had.

But once they get use to me, they are ok. Once they know that I am only there to buy certain items, and I am not going to be sold on the latest item, they backed off and became rather helpful.

Of course they would then go and hire a new employee and I would have to break them in again.

Honestly, I never had a problem with this at most of the GW stores I've been in. At the GW here in Denver, before it sadly closed, I was on good terms with the managers. Once they know you've been in the hobby for a while, they stop trying to push things on you so much. There was always the,

"hey, have you pre-ordered this new shiny thing yet?"
"no, i don't need it and don't have the money to spend on it."
"but it's so shiny! and new!"

every now and then, but that's just them doing their job, and I don't fault them for it. They'd take my negatives with a smile anyway. I would often get in talks with them about whether or not these things were actually worth it, if certain rules were good, etc., and more often then not they'd admit that they were on my side.

I'm not sure, but I think that they're required to be very friendly and attentive when new people step into the store, offering demo games if they seem interested enough. For people who have an idea of what they want, they can help direct them to the right area, and suggest possible units and such. For veterans, soon as they said "I'm just here to pick up X" it was "alright, it's over here. let me know when you're ready."

Perhaps my store was atypical, but it was run well. Why GW decided to close it down and not replace it, I'll never know.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Yes. How dare an employee in a shop do his job.

What a swine! And perhaps if you tried saying 'no, really, I'm okay thank you' you might have gotten on a bit better.

That is probably the lamest excuse for poor employee behavior I've ever seen. If a customer reacted like that to his behavior, he's obviously a poor asset to GW and not doing his job correctly.


The last time I was in an actual GW store, most of the employee's had this unsettling sycophantic behavior, while its one thing to be enthusiastic, its another altogether to blab on about something that the customer either obviously doesn't care about or obviously doesn't agree with. My local independent is much better. If someone wants advice or is looking to buy stuff, they are helpful and realistic, rather than acting like used car salesman, they aren't going to try an unload an army on someone just because they need to meet a quota or shift stock, they'll ask someone what they are interested in and give them pointers or advice, but aren't going to be super pushy or try and cram the newest release down everyones throat.

The local Gw store I go to frequently cause i work evenings and have nothing to do during the day are extremly helpful and are all good friends of mine. But i think that if you are a frequent customer they learn how to treat you and what you want out of them. I am a Tourism major in college and thats what they teach us. Your good customers who come back time and time again you should know how they like to be treated and handled as a customer. So I think all this talk about bad employees is honestly just a result of poor comunication and sale training.

Tell you what's worse than pushy sales, I went into a LGS in central London last week looking for some paint, and as I walked in I just got this glare from the blokes in there, they went silent and just stared at me as I walked to the bit where the paint was. They then turned their backs on me and carried on talking. I had to say 'excuse me' three times before they turned, again glaring, to me and asked what I wanted, I told them, they said they didn't have it and turned their back. I'm not off in there again, I'll tell thee that. I can only assume that they were thrown by the sight of someone who had showered entering the shop.

It was your odor (or more to the point lack thereof). Without the identifying scent of three day sweat and last week's chip grease wiped on the seat of your trousers, you were like a restless ghost invading their store, seemingly there, but yet lacking a physical presence. It's no wonder they were threatening and unsettled.

Greebynog wrote:Tell you what's worse than pushy sales, I went into a LGS in central London last week looking for some paint, and as I walked in I just got this glare from the blokes in there, they went silent and just stared at me as I walked to the bit where the paint was. They then turned their backs on me and carried on talking. I had to say 'excuse me' three times before they turned, again glaring, to me and asked what I wanted, I told them, they said they didn't have it and turned their back. I'm not off in there again, I'll tell thee that. I can only assume that they were thrown by the sight of someone who had showered entering the shop.

Yowch!

Those chaps need a decent kick up the into reality methinks. Thats more awkward than the time I got kicked out of a French store selling GW stuff by a policewoman because I didn't know what she was saying xD

Greebynog wrote:Tell you what's worse than pushy sales, I went into a LGS in central London last week looking for some paint, and as I walked in I just got this glare from the blokes in there, they went silent and just stared at me as I walked to the bit where the paint was. They then turned their backs on me and carried on talking. I had to say 'excuse me' three times before they turned, again glaring, to me and asked what I wanted, I told them, they said they didn't have it and turned their back. I'm not off in there again, I'll tell thee that. I can only assume that they were thrown by the sight of someone who had showered entering the shop.

Which one was that?

Hmmm, you people across the pond sound like you're getting the short end of the stick when it comes to Redshirts...

I am not a GW Fanboy by any means, but the vast majority of staff i deal with here at my local shops in Canada are awesome. Not pushy, but not complacent.

While I am not as aged as the original poster, I am a veteran gamer and find I am treated by the staff consistently as such.

They know I need little help with modelling, painting and gaming advice, but they know I still come in for a reason.

And that is to get new info, new releases, maybe some friendly chat or theoryhammer ideas.

Usually all it takes is a mention of a cool new model on their part to get my mind churning and next thing I'm buying a new army.

Well trained staff (with competent managers) can recognize the differing levels of gamer and cater to them as such.

The bad salespeople and management tend to group everyone together and use the say technique, day in and day out.

I've been in GW for a few hours painting and seen a staff member do the same ol sales routine to 5 different customers. He thinks he has a 'good pitch' or tactic, but usually it sees the customer out the door instead.

I have to say that generally speaking I have received an "appropriate" level of salesmenship in recent years. What always amuses me though is when some new guy is doing the demo games - giving it all the "pew pew" and "dakkadakkadakka" noises, accompanied by completely hammy death throes and general wows. If when I was a kid someone had demo'd a game to me in that manner I'd have run an absolute mile! Maybe kids these days need this stuff though! Who knows? Back in the day though, even the bright red and orange paint that was everywhere was enough to make me hide under the table!

YAY! It's the "Let's heap on GW Store Staff" thread. Again.

And again.

Look, you know if you're going into a GW store, you're going to get a certain type of reaction based on their training. People with varying levels of social awareness/awkwardness being excited about the hobby. If you're looking for a lively debate about the various aspects of the hobby, you're likely to get it.

And about the CoS/orphaned army issue, the dude was (awkwardly) trying to look out for you. Take it in that light.

It's like that comic said about his wife: If something I say can be taken two ways, and one of them offends you, I meant the other one.

All I can say is, if I were 13 years old and local to a GW, red shirts would probably
have been the greatest boon in my learning to paint. Instead, I took instruction
from the folks on Dakka in my college years.

To be honest, I've had nothing but good experiences with my local GW store, but then it's right next to where I work so I end up popping in most days on my lunchbreak to kill time.

For everyone who has issues with staff being "pushy", just tell them you're browsing, it's simple.

Occasionally you get a new member of staff who takes their sales training a little too seriously and tries to push things down your throat, maybe it's just me, but I find this pretty amusing and have no real issue with it.

I've been to several GW stores including the Baltimore battle bunker. I have only one thing to really comment on. The GW - Franklin Mills, PA store, despite my best efforts to convey that I'm NOT a new player, just one that is restarting the hobby, the Staff wanted to treat me as a n00b and gave me the sales pitch on everything. This was annoying, but none the less their job. I do give them credit that despite giving me sales pitch after sales pitch, they were in no way pushy. They took my "No" answers the first time and moved on, making it more of an informative sales tactic, but still a little annoying to me.

yeah,
I'm 29yrs old.
I Like going into the 4 stores in my area because the staff are cool and nice to talk to.
Bromley, Oxford Street, Covent Garden and Blue Water
I like being excited about my hobby.
I like chatting about stuff, even stuff I already know.

you never know when you'll get a idea for something that you didn't think of.
for example when I was making my halfling Bloodbowl team I needed 2 treemen, so I'm stareing at the horrible WHFB Treeman and a box of dryads, when a GW dude asked me what i was looking for? he was able to help me, I hadn't thought about the LOTR range... but he ran over grabbed a few boxes and show'd them to me... and they were just what i was looking for.

GW Staff have always spoken to me with respect, So I find it hard to believe that there so little respect for them here?
Sure I'll moan if i think I got a raw deal with a broken model etc... but 99% of the time that gets fixed without complaint.

I really don't know what the issue here is...
If you don't want to talk about your hobby or the new releases or what your working on? just say so.
I say something like "sorry mate I'd like to have a look around pick up a few supplies and I'll get back to you when I'm ready."

Question: After the Staff guys asked you about what your working on, have you ever asked the GW staff guy what armys he's working on?

PaniC...

I don't patronize GW stores (thank the maker there isn't one in my state and I hope there never is one).

If YOU have a choice, you should find a nice FLGS and visit it instead.

A GW store is what it is.

Vets come there to BS and perhaps paint with like minded people.

New players come to get games in.

People who've never heard of the game come in to see what the hell is going on, and get introduced to the hobby.

The people who work there can be douchebags, but they can be great, same as any other store. It's like going to T.G.I.Fridays. You know what yuo're going to get 85% of the time, everyonce in a while, you'll get a bad server. If you don't like being talked to, don't go into the store. The first few times, expect the questions. Play a few times, TREAT THE STAFF LIKE PEOPLE, and they'll get to know you and realize that you're a regular. Adjust expectations accordingly for new staff.

Unless you have your army's heraldry tattooed on your forhead, realize that they're going to assume you're like the 95% of the people who enter the store who need to have this stuff explained to them. Realize that your store is staffed by fellow nerds who are as awkward as you are/may have been. If you're that rare nerd mysteriously attractive to your perfered sex who never went through an awkward phase, revel in that and shut up.

They are trying to sell you stuff, but they're also trying to get to know you.

Valhallan, what you say about GW stores and GW employees is generic to the point where it can be said of any gaming store. The problem with GW is that their employees exaggerate these qualities to the point where it drives people away whereas FLGSs typically do not. I've never had FLGS employees try to sell me stuff that they know is crap (in fact, I've had some caution me against buying things), but I have had a red shirt try and convince me that Pariahs are a great addition to a Necron army.

You point out that every business has douchebag employees, but the fact that it is commonplace for gamers to complain specifically about the douchebaggery of GW salesmen is an indication of a problem. It all comes down to their management practices.

I'll step up for the GW store in the St. Louis area.
I'm rarely ever in there... I think I've been there less than a dozen times. In fact, I'm CERTAIN of it.


They know my name.

That's important to me. If you take the time to know my NAME, even though I am almost never in there, then you're taking the time to remember ME.
The first time or 2 I visited the store, I got the "hard sell." It wasn't as bad as some here have seen and I didn't feel pressured to buy. I felt like the dude just wasn't going to leave until he said everything he "needed" to. Once he said that and I indicated that I was good to go and would let him know if I needed anything, he left me alone.

Like I said, this happened the first 2 times I went there... and never again.

Even when the newest employee started, he seemed to take the lead from the older employees and let me be.

If I go in and ask about ANYTHING, I get escorted directly to it, unless I tell them that there's no need for them to escort me and ask them to just point it out... then, that's what they do.

I have good talks with them about armies and conversions and painting, etc. I can tell when they're saying the "GW theory" on things and when they're genuinely saying their thoughts, but that's from knowing the difference. Even if they espouse "GW mantra" to the kids, it isn't harmful... mostly, it just makes them build sucky armies. LOL

I like the St. Louis GW store.. I just wish it was in St. Louis and not East G. Zus.


Eric

I only have 1 GW store anywhere near me, Franklin Mills. It's about an hour away.. I only stop in if I'm in the area for any reason and I haven't been there in well over a year. But I've never had any kind of hard sell from anyone there.. usually just a "can I help you" and when I saw "naw, just looking" they go away. Or if I say "yeah I just gotta get this and that for my whatever army" they might engage in some small talk and ask about my army, but thats about it. I guess they can tell I know what I'm looking for or if I mention I have 4 other armies they know I know what I want

Danny Internets wrote:Valhallan, what you say about GW stores and GW employees is generic to the point where it can be said of any gaming store.

It also happens to be true. GW shops can be like FLGS's that happen to sell only one product line.

Danny Internets wrote:The problem with GW is that their employees exaggerate these qualities to the point where it drives people away whereas FLGSs typically do not. I've never had FLGS employees try to sell me stuff that they know is crap (in fact, I've had some caution me against buying things), but I have had a red shirt try and convince me that Pariahs are a great addition to a Necron army.

I argue that the problem is perception and target audience. You're a vet, I assume. You're probably not the target audience, and for you to assume that they should know you already play is foolish. Most of them are newish, as retail turnover is fairly high, and so they only have a modicum of training. People who only have one or two tools tend to wield them clumsily at times. Turn the questions around on them. Turn it into a conversation, same as you would at an FLGS. Don't go into a store with a chip on your shoulder.

Danny Internets wrote:You point out that every business has douchebag employees, but the fact that it is commonplace for gamers to complain specifically about the douchebaggery of GW salesmen is an indication of a problem. It all comes down to their management practices.

The fact of the matter is that the internet is full of people who complain about everything. If the internets were any true indications of the majority, Jervis would have been drawn and quartered years ago, and Rick Priestly would have been dipped in honey and rolled in bees. If you don't want to talk to people about your hobby, don't go into the store. People keep coming back to the stores, and keep joining the hobby. The Great Doom bespoke of by the Internets is not yet apon us.

Responding to what Danny and some others have said, I’d actually suggest that it’s more of an issue with any store staffed by geeks. Take this from a once-socially-awkward homeschooled-until-college geek. A lot of us are missing social skills and/or develop them late.

In many independent gaming or comic stores you also get antisocial behavior, but often of a different kind, mentioned by an earlier poster- the unfriendly, unhelpful, unwelcoming kind. Where the staff act as if the store is their private clubhouse, and have no clue about customer service. IME these stores/kind of staff are no less common than the pushy, over-the-top annoying GW staffer.

Thankfully, my experience is that BOTH of these kinds of problem staff are the exception rather than the rule. Most GW staffers I’ve met, and most FLGS folks, have been quite nice and decent people. Not offensive at all.

After nearly ten years of being active online in this hobby, I’ve certainly seen some complaints about GW staff. But my perception is that it’s gotten better overall, and that most gamers get along fine with their fellow gamers, those geeks-in-uniform who accept a less than outstanding wage in order to spend their days working with the toys we all love. Retail sales is never an easy job, and I can absolutely cut some slack for the guys who don’t quite understand how to properly and judiciously apply what they’re taught in sales training.

All that said, I think the OP’s post was a reasonable one. It’s reasoned, measured criticism of a staffer (not called out by name) who was (and probably still is) misapplying his sales technique.

I'm 2nd-ing Stelek's experience - no GW's here, only FLGS. All of them friendly, locally-owned/operated shops full of guys that have pointed me in the right direction, be they employees, owners, or simply the local gang of loiterers.

I've been in sales before and currently work telecom customer service. A sales rep is responsible for every customer that walks in the door. Every customer has unique needs and concerns and it's the sales staff's job to size them up, make modest inquiries, and provide the most effective service based on the information they obtain. If a beardy-lookin' git walks in - leave him be! He'll let you know what he needs and if you make small talk to open him up a bit, maybe he'll remember something he wanted to ask or get your opinion. If it's a soccer-mom or geek-dad (like myself) with 12 year olds, then approach away and wax poetically about whatever item is on the sales quota for the week/month.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Greebynog wrote:Tell you what's worse than pushy sales, I went into a LGS in central London last week looking for some paint, and as I walked in I just got this glare from the blokes in there, they went silent and just stared at me as I walked to the bit where the paint was. They then turned their backs on me and carried on talking. I had to say 'excuse me' three times before they turned, again glaring, to me and asked what I wanted, I told them, they said they didn't have it and turned their back. I'm not off in there again, I'll tell thee that. I can only assume that they were thrown by the sight of someone who had showered entering the shop.

Which one was that?

I'm curious too. The only LGS in central london proper that I am aware of is the Orc's Nest which could sort of match that description. Great range there though if you want anything non-GW.

Danny Internets wrote:Valhallan, what you say about GW stores and GW employees is generic to the point where it can be said of any gaming store. The problem with GW is that their employees exaggerate these qualities to the point where it drives people away whereas FLGSs typically do not. I've never had FLGS employees try to sell me stuff that they know is crap (in fact, I've had some caution me against buying things), but I have had a red shirt try and convince me that Pariahs are a great addition to a Necron army.

You point out that every business has douchebag employees, but the fact that it is commonplace for gamers to complain specifically about the douchebaggery of GW salesmen is an indication of a problem. It all comes down to their management practices.

It's also because there are a lot more GW shops than independents.

On the positive I've never stepped into a GW and then stepped right back out due to the ripeness of the body odor. I have done that at FLGS before.

I've been in Orc's Nest several times but I've only bought stuff from them online. This is because by luck they were the last people in the world with a copy of DBM Army Book 2 or something.

I know from going in the shop, I will never again plumb those depths of RPG dedication -- much as I might like to -- unless retirement brings me the time and life brings me the friends who might also indulge.

In short, it is a great shop if you are after all kinds of odd RPG paraphernalia, however I have never even asked for service in there.

I don't know whether the staff are embittered grouchs who realise belatedly they have wasted their golden youth on an idle dream, or if they are living a golden dream for real, of a life of youthful idleness pursuing their favourite pursuits.

I argue that the problem is perception and target audience. You're a vet, I assume. You're probably not the target audience, and for you to assume that they should know you already play is foolish. Most of them are newish, as retail turnover is fairly high, and so they only have a modicum of training. People who only have one or two tools tend to wield them clumsily at times. Turn the questions around on them. Turn it into a conversation, same as you would at an FLGS. Don't go into a store with a chip on your shoulder.

I don't assume that the employees have ESP when I enter a GW store nor do I assume they have ESP when I enter an independent store. The difference is that the employees of the former are aggressive to the point of annoying in their sales tactics while employees of the latter are not. I've been to plenty of local gaming stores and hobby shops and have never experienced this. I have been to numerous GW stores as well and have experienced this at all of them each and every time I've gone.

The fact of the matter is that the internet is full of people who complain about everything. If the internets were any true indications of the majority, Jervis would have been drawn and quartered years ago, and Rick Priestly would have been dipped in honey and rolled in bees. If you don't want to talk to people about your hobby, don't go into the store. People keep coming back to the stores, and keep joining the hobby. The Great Doom bespoke of by the Internets is not yet apon us.

I don't recall saying that the volume of complaints about this particular aspect of GW represented majority (probably because I didn't). I simply pointed out that many GW customers have a beef with the way GW employees are trained to behave. You say that people complain about everything, but I don't hear people complaining about the layout of the stores, or about their appearance. To claim that complaints about GW staff is just part of the baseline, background noise of internet grumbling is naive. It's prevalent enough that you felt the need to comment on how often the issue comes up in your first post in this thread. That should tell you something.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:Valhallan, what you say about GW stores and GW employees is generic to the point where it can be said of any gaming store. The problem with GW is that their employees exaggerate these qualities to the point where it drives people away whereas FLGSs typically do not. I've never had FLGS employees try to sell me stuff that they know is crap (in fact, I've had some caution me against buying things), but I have had a red shirt try and convince me that Pariahs are a great addition to a Necron army.

You point out that every business has douchebag employees, but the fact that it is commonplace for gamers to complain specifically about the douchebaggery of GW salesmen is an indication of a problem. It all comes down to their management practices.

It's also because there are a lot more GW shops than independents.

That's not true of either of the places I've played in over the past decade or so (Westchester County, NY and Boston, MA). Maybe it's different overseas.

MagickalMemories wrote:I'll step up for the GW store in the St. Louis area.

Eric

I was in St Louis last weekend with my family for vacation, we were held over due to trains being cancelled from the flooding, so Monday while waiting on the afternoon train we went to the mall to kill time, and because I wanted to check out the store(I live in Western MO, we only have LGS). I have to say, the one staff member in the store was quite friendly, gave me a "Hi, can I help you with anything?" and when I replied that I was just looking, left it at that. Didn't push anything on me, I browsed pretty much the whole store too, so it wasn't like I went straight to a section like I knew what I wanted. Overall that's how I like to be treated, a offer of help, and when told I don't need it, to let me go about my business. I picked up the 40k Counter Set, some paint, and then got a White Dwarf for the train ride, never got pushed on what army I was working on, or anything. Good experience for my first time in a GW store.

Every retail shop can have the ultrapushy sales people. Certainly it is nothing out of the norm for such places. I tend to be more insulted and more likely to walk out if they do not approach me to ask if I need anything. Because if they can not spare the time to deliver customer service to me I certainly will not part with any of my cash to them. I recently did get to visit a GW store(In another province) while I was visiting relatives. I did enjoy the life sized space marine that was very cool and the retail staff seemed to be rather surprised that someone who did not know was suddenly appearing in thier store. It was ironic that the one item I was looking for they actually did not have in stock.

Danny Internets-

My assertion is that GW will lose on this argument either way because people dislike GW's corporate stance while loving their products.

If they're agressive with sales, they're too pushy. If they're laid back, they're ignoring you. I'd rather have to tamp the enthusiasm down, then have to crank it up. YMMV.

My young cousin (just starting the hobby, I've taught him enough painting/modelling to be actually pretty good now) who's 14 has had some pretty aggravating experiences when he's gone into shops like this.

Notably the branch in Hammersmith.

Now, I know he's a kid still, but he knows his stuff. At least they can ask him if he's experienced before trying to ram every single boxed set down his throat. And yes, selling techniques aside, I'm not sure if every GW employee missed the memo that continual annoyance just makes the Online Store SO much more inviting?

Really. I've had to go in there, and once I had to BRING HIS & MY ARMIES before they would leave us alone about trying to preach to the converted.

And even then, they tried to drag us into store gaming...

~sA

smiling Assassin wrote:

And even then, they tried to drag us into store gaming...

~sA

You're upset that a games store wanted you to game there? I don't understand the problem.

Danny Internets wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:Valhallan, what you say about GW stores and GW employees is generic to the point where it can be said of any gaming store. The problem with GW is that their employees exaggerate these qualities to the point where it drives people away whereas FLGSs typically do not. I've never had FLGS employees try to sell me stuff that they know is crap (in fact, I've had some caution me against buying things), but I have had a red shirt try and convince me that Pariahs are a great addition to a Necron army.

You point out that every business has douchebag employees, but the fact that it is commonplace for gamers to complain specifically about the douchebaggery of GW salesmen is an indication of a problem. It all comes down to their management practices.

It's also because there are a lot more GW shops than independents.

That's not true of either of the places I've played in over the past decade or so (Westchester County, NY and Boston, MA). Maybe it's different overseas.

Yeah, I'm in the UK.

Valhallan42nd wrote:

smiling Assassin wrote:

And even then, they tried to drag us into store gaming...

~sA

You're upset that a games store wanted you to game there? I don't understand the problem.

The UK seems to have much more of a culture of gaming at home and at parish halls and community centres than at games shops. It comes though in the way people write about their gaming life.

I don't know this for truth -- it's a question I've asked Americans before without getting any answers.

I'm afraid to say that I find myself extremely sympathetic towards the gentlemen who started this topic. I'm currently thirty-three years old and work in IT management. During my teenage years I enjoyed playing at least three varieties of Warhammer as well as Blood Bowl and the thrash metal band Bolt Thower. Then I went to university in a town with no Games Workshop, and then I traded my miniatures away for D&D manuals, and then I got a girlfriend, and so on and so forth.

So it has probably been nearly fifteen years since I visited a Games Workshop, but recently I happened to buy the 'Dawn of War' game for my PC. It didn't really hold my interest for long but it did make me really nostalgic for my long lost and much beloved space ork army. I went to my parents house and recovered the remnants from the attic. I mostly enjoyed painting and converting miniatures, and although I had traded away most of the finished models there were some half-finished projects and enough plastic sprues to make a good start on a new army.

Having decided that I really wanted to complete my convoy of looted imperial vehicles I popped into a local Games Workshop store (I know of three within about twenty miles of where I live). The plan was mostly to stock up on various paints and modelling materials that I knew I would need. I also wanted to investigate the possibility of buying some current models towards turning my ramshackle assortment of ork bitz into a usable and rules-legal army. I wasn't planning on using my army in battle, I certainly don't have the time to play in any kind of a league, but if there was the possibility of a few casual games with people of my own age group then it wouldn't hurt to be prepared.

Well, truthfully, when I say 'investigate the possibility of buying some current models' what I mean is 'I remember trying to build armies from sale bins with the meagre earnings from my part-time job when I was at school and college and now that I'm earning enough to support a coke habit if I so wished I could have been sold half the shop if approached with the right attitude and enjoyed it.

I ended up getting quickly intimidated out of the shop having spent £50 and not even having bought everything that I meant to get. I'm actually quite a loud and tactless individual and I'm still not sure how that happened. I was also patronised to the extent that I still feel slightly soiled. I'm certainly embarassed to go back. In hindsight I'm sure that the three youthful staff who pounced on me were only intending to do their jobs and meant no harm, but they scared the hell out of me. The experience was similar to getting out of bed on a Saturday morning with a hangover, answering the door in a dressing gown and being suddenly bewildered to find religious fanatics demanding that you join their church in order to receive salvation.

So now I'm on the internet researching what I'm going to want and writing a list on a piece of paper, which I will then take with me to a different Games Workshop store where I will be prepared for their attitude and not tolerate it and make sure I get exactly what was on the list. And it was during the course of that research that I came across this website, noticed this topic, and felt the urge to comment.

I'm not complaining, I understand the tactics of the staff, but I'm sure it would be in everyones best interests to treat thirty-somethings slightly differently than twelve-year olds. I'm assuming we have more money which should give Games Workshop a good reason to want us back in the hobby, and we don't want people half our age enthusing 'if you get good your models could end up on display, like those!' when we buy some paints and a can of chaos black undercoat. Golden Demon awards winner me (assuming commendations count), I don't need that. From looking at this topic it would appear that my experience was far from unique, so maybe the company should look at its policies or training? Or maybe us old folks should just grow a pair.

First post by the way, pleased to meet you all.

I'd ask what a parish hall is first. (Kidding, I know what it is. We just don't have them here.)

The UK is much more into the stuff you related than we are.

I understand where you're coming from Mr Cat.

Going in a GW shop is sometimes a bit like being flirty fished by a cult.

Kilkrazy wrote:The UK seems to have much more of a culture of gaming at home and at parish halls and community centres than at games shops. It comes though in the way people write about their gaming life.

I don't know this for truth -- it's a question I've asked Americans before without getting any answers.

I dunno why there's an emphasis on playing at stores over here. I I guess maybe it's because generally speaking whenever people play in a store, they buy something. I know I do, I feel like if they're giving me a place to play I should at least buy something even if it's just a few paints. it could also be just because the store owners and employees want to get paid to play

Me personally though I don't really care for playing in stores. I only do it for special events that I want to check out or if I'm meeting a friend for a game we already planned on playing. Because of work I can only get to a store with enough time to play if it's a weekend, and all their special "game nights" are on week nights :( My club started out in a guy's basement (he could fit 4 tables down there) and that's where I like playing the most but our club is too big for his house now, and we're playing at a local store.. which I don't really think is any bigger :( We just meet up once a month so it's not that big of a deal.

Playing in stores is free and requires no need to store/repair/create terrain. In the US, it's a crap ton of sapce as well. It's kind of a no brainer.

I was paying for some SM scouts recently and the guy behind the counter made the usual 'Hey, Space Marines! What chapter are you working on?' line. When I mentioned it was Relictors, he almost did a double-take before confessing he always zoned out at that point in the script because 'everyone always says Ultramarines'.

Once the script had been torn up, we had a decent little conversation.

Honestly, I tend to disarm the GW drones in a similar manner. When they ask me the usual "What army do you collect?" question I like to smirk at them and say "Squats!".
That usually makes them miss a beat in their delivery at the very least. Sometimes it completly derails their sales pitch. The best response I ever got was young staffer who looked at me with a glazed over look in his eyes and simply said "What are those?"
Of course it can back fire of course. The worst reply I ever got was the clown who started in on how "you Squat players just need to get over it. It's about time to build a new army wouldn't you say? Why don't you try.....".

Talk about messing with the Red Shirt's minds, you ought to go into a GW store and set up a game of Rogue Trader. That gets a pretty amusing reaction I can assure you!

TR

Trench-Raider wrote:

Talk about messing with the Red Shirt's minds, you ought to go into a GW store and set up a game of Rogue Trader. That gets a pretty amusing reaction I can assure you!

TR

After I heard the staff at the LA Battle bunker talking about how corporate was going to ban games of 4th ed in GW stores after the book came out (while they were talking about how they wouldn't be getting enough books to go around either, thinking that GW banning 4th altogether was rather stupid from any sense) I snickered and told my friend we should walk in and play 2nd ed. I'll prolly try it next time I'm down there.

Trench-Raider wrote:Honestly, I tend to disarm the GW drones in a similar manner. When they ask me the usual "What army do you collect?" question I like to smirk at them and say "Squats!".
That usually makes them miss a beat in their delivery at the very least. Sometimes it completly derails their sales pitch. The best response I ever got was young staffer who looked at me with a glazed over look in his eyes and simply said "What are those?"
Of course it can back fire of course. The worst reply I ever got was the clown who started in on how "you Squat players just need to get over it. It's about time to build a new army wouldn't you say? Why don't you try.....".

Talk about messing with the Red Shirt's minds, you ought to go into a GW store and set up a game of Rogue Trader. That gets a pretty amusing reaction I can assure you!

TR

The only 40k rule books I have are Rogue Trader, 'Ere We Go and Waaargh the Orks! Are you telling me those aren't current? And I didn't even know Squats were gone until I read your post and looked at wikipedia (alhough that does explain why I didn't see any space dwarves in Dawn of War). It is bad enough that Games Workshop sales staff can't take the special needs of old people into consideration, now I'm going to have to start demanding this website comes with spoiler warnings.

Yeah, I joined as Squats were on the way out. After two years of saving I rang Mail Order to have a very suprised troll tell me that there wasn't a Squat codex. I was a bit dissapointed.

Good to see you back gaming and posting on Dakka. Do stick around, and try to get past the initial pitch stage with GW employees and you'll find most of 'em are nice guys.

The only GW Store I visit on a semi-regular (a couple times a year) is the Chicago Battle Bunker - and I have to say that the staff there is great. I also think that they, in general, have less turnover there than is usual. Maybe the first time I showed up there, I got the hard sell, but since then, even though I only stop by 2-4 times a year, they still recognize me.

I've never really felt patronized by GW employees. Most of the time, they look so relieved to see someone who isn't a teenager that they are really cool, ask me what armies I play, ask me if I saw the latest thing, but are never, ever pushy. I've been to several stores both in SoCal and in the Bay Area.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Hmmm.. Interesting, I would agree any good salesman in any retail outlet better be able to identify what that customer needs.
Sometimes it is peace and quiet. Sometimes, I just want to look and plan. Sometimes I want to talk about the hobby in general.
Try pushing me into buying something... well it just might work... good for you... now if you told me bloodletters were the only way to go with a 40k demon army so you convinced me to by 4 boxes of them and then I went through the time of painting, playing (and losing repeatedly) I might just not trust you the next time when you tell me that Vypers are the key to Eldar success... As a matter of fact, I might stop frequenting stores with non-helpful idiots who just want me to buy 100 dollars of crap.

The true problem is that you may get a polite, helpful and even informed opinion to help you out but if you are a clunker or sell me
$h!t that is an absolute waste of my time and money I will be understandably resentful, reluctant to go to your store again and worst of all... I will tell my gaming friends of the bad experience I had at that particular store and recommend the extra 30 minute or 1 hour drive to another store is worth it because you can't trust store X.

If GW isn't serious about this part of the hobby, enjoy the $100 you talked me into spending in one trip and be ignorant of the fact that I am spending hundreds of dollars now in a competitor's store from now on and perhaps on non-GW merchandise because of the lackluster honesty in sales or the mercurial changes in codexes that one-up my investment into non-competitiveness.

Trench-Raider wrote:
Honestly, I tend to disarm the GW drones in a similar manner. When they ask me the usual "What army do you collect?" question I like to smirk at them and say "Squats!".
That usually makes them miss a beat in their delivery at the very least. Sometimes it completly derails their sales pitch. The best response I ever got was young staffer who looked at me with a glazed over look in his eyes and simply said "What are those?"
Of course it can back fire of course. The worst reply I ever got was the clown who started in on how "you Squat players just need to get over it. It's about time to build a new army wouldn't you say? Why don't you try.....".

Talk about messing with the Red Shirt's minds, you ought to go into a GW store and set up a game of Rogue Trader. That gets a pretty amusing reaction I can assure you!

TR

Someone did that to me....

I showed him my squat conversions i've been beavering away on and suggested how to do it for the best value.
It turned into a lovely conversation about the pros and cons of different lists we could use for our squat armies.




I suppose I should jump in here.....

I have seen all the myriad types of staff mentioned- but i do have to question what is the actual majority.
Now I remember in the states when I lived over there that I did have substancially more of the ones mentioned by the OP, however since moving back here- and now having worked alongside alot of these people- they are becoming the minority.

I think as a staff member one of the oddest things to cope with is the "leave me alone" type of person.
I can understand why some people will do such, if they've had poor experiences in the past-

However I would recommend them seeing the staff as abit more human- and occassionally try to have a normal conversation with 'em
There are alot of staffers (and the numbers do seem to be growing) who have what I see as the right idea- the hobby first, sales second- If the staff member can find out about you better, understand what your working towards, they are far more likely to be able to recoomend the right type of product. This can be as simple as pointing you at the paints- or it can be as in depth of helping you write a new army list, showing you how to do something or suggesting different models. I know from a purely business perspective it makes sense to tell every person who walks in the door about the new stuff, but I know from experience- you get far better results by getting to know people and being as helpful as you can with their particular needs. I'm more than happy to talk to anyone who walks in the door and get to hear about their take on the hobby- sometimes this will lead to an obvious "sale" situation, sometimes to suggesting a hobby lesson, and sometimes the conversation will end naturally and i'll leave them to have a wander. (and for those who care tell them what whimsical plans i'm working on right now- incidently someone really needs to remind me to take some pics and post them on here)

If I did anymore then I recognise i'd be too pushy. If I did any less- i'd risk seeming to ignore people. What you need to ask is- how is someone going to strike a balance in that day in day out....?
Its difficult- i'll admit that, its REALLY easy to slip into either of the extremes- but it becomes alot easier if you get treated like a human back.

Nothing kills your will to work than someone being grumpy, short and rude to you- as soon as you say hi. I've seen some incredible displays of rudeness towards me- i'm pretty sure because of the shirt I was wearing.
The other killer is the time vampire- who will suck the time and life out of you... as some people class them the "weirdos" that a gaming store will attract. The best by far was still the guy who was convinced that the world was a lie, the 40k universe was real and the shop manager was the emp. reborn..... (he then started stalking the manager)

I guess to get to the centre of what i'm saying is- in order to be a staffer- the person has to be a hobbist first, if you want- try and engage them as such if you want to. Or just ask them for some nice easy directions to what your after. (little tip- if your in a rush and don't want to be bothered- write a list of what you need and just come in with the list out- you may get asked a few questions- but you are sure to get the stuff you need- maybe without having to go more than 10ft from the door )

If you have had something that you REALLY didn't like with the customer service- there are a few avenues- talk to the manager and explain the situation, write a letter to the manager or call/write to the cust. services dept. If there is shenaigans going on- then the person can be told and it can get sorted

Well, at any fringe geek-genre hobby store you tend to have two types of people: the well-adjusted, successful individuals who see the hobby as an important, but marginal part of their life, and the hardcore gamerists that see the hobby as the most important part of life. These people both work there and shop there.

Whenever one type meets the other type, friction will inevitably happen. Well adjusted employees are creeped out by the smelly and personality-deficient gamerists, and polite normal gamers are creeped out by the boorish and personality-deficient salesgeek.

You just gotta call it like you see it.

Vaktathi wrote:

Trench-Raider wrote:

Talk about messing with the Red Shirt's minds, you ought to go into a GW store and set up a game of Rogue Trader. That gets a pretty amusing reaction I can assure you!

TR

After I heard the staff at the LA Battle bunker talking about how corporate was going to ban games of 4th ed in GW stores after the book came out (while they were talking about how they wouldn't be getting enough books to go around either, thinking that GW banning 4th altogether was rather stupid from any sense) I snickered and told my friend we should walk in and play 2nd ed. I'll prolly try it next time I'm down there.

I insist on the use of Virus Outbreak!!!!

New customers bring in the most revenue for GW. Once a gamer has all the models they want they don't spend much on product. From my observations, there is little benifit for them to even be in the store other than to hopefully generate enthusiasm.

In my local area I've seen GW turn away game clubs and shut down challenge boards. I suspect some of the management even tries to push veterans away (at least from what I've seen). They only care about kids and new customers.

As much as I (and many veteran gamers) don't like it... GW's hard sales tactics are probably the best thing for them. They are more likely to generate sales to new players especially if they are young and impressionable, but even older players who are new to the games can be impressionable. And if they push away veterans (young or old)... why should they care? Veterans don't spend much. Like any business, you're better off catering to the customers that will generate the most revenue and ultimately profits.

~Logic

Some vets spend a lot (not me.)

I was welcomed to the local vets night -- no players under 30 years old or something, I don't remember.

GW no doubt has an eye on the paedo issue.

I don't want to play with 12 year olds anyway.

Logic wrote:New customers bring in the most revenue for GW. Once a gamer has all the models they want they don't spend much on product. From my observations, there is little benifit for them to even be in the store other than to hopefully generate enthusiasm.

In my local area I've seen GW turn away game clubs and shut down challenge boards. I suspect some of the management even tries to push veterans away (at least from what I've seen). They only care about kids and new customers.

As much as I (and many veteran gamers) don't like it... GW's hard sales tactics are probably the best thing for them. They are more likely to generate sales to new players especially if they are young and impressionable, but even older players who are new to the games can be impressionable. And if they push away veterans (young or old)... why should they care? Veterans don't spend much. Like any business, you're better off catering to the customers that will generate the most revenue and ultimately profits.

~Logic

Then that is a foolish GW store. Vets generally have nice painted armies, and are great cheerleaders for the hobby. That's wierd that that would happen.

Kilkrazy wrote:The UK seems to have much more of a culture of gaming at home and at parish halls and community centres than at games shops. It comes though in the way people write about their gaming life.

I don't know this for truth -- it's a question I've asked Americans before without getting any answers.

It's something I've observed as well. I put it down to the fact that here in the UK, independent stores are a rare animal thanks to GW having bought them up in the 80's/early 90's or competed them out of existence in many cases. Sure there are some, and some successful ones, but they are a heck of a lot more rare a phenomenon (or appear to be) than in the UK.

Anyhow, whatever the reason, GW are massively dominant in the UK when it comes to games retailing, so if you want to play games, and for whatever reason you don't want to play in a GW store (maybe you don't play GW games, don't like the atmosphere, don't like red-shirts bossing you around, you're too old/young/smelly whatever) you are pretty much forced to set up or join a club.

Also, it is probably a factor that your average FLGS in the UK really doesn't earn enough to justify renting significant playing space. In the US where property rental and sales are possibly in a different ratio...

Now, there are some clubs around that predate GW and are focussed on (say) purely historical gaming which has nothing much to do with the Evil Empire at all these days, at least when it comes to figures. I suspect this is the case in the US too, as clubs do exist over there, just not to the same degree as independent stores with gaming space.

Of course, there are always exceptions, and a local one I can think of is Games of War in Seaham, here in the UK. It rents a warehouse for gaming, with a shop on the front. While the proceeds from the shop (and from attending shows) pays the bills though, one gets the impression that it is still very much a gaming club with a retail arm, rather than a store with gaming space. (www.gamesofwar.co.uk)

Danny Internets wrote:Valhallan, what you say about GW stores and GW employees is generic to the point where it can be said of any gaming store. The problem with GW is that their employees exaggerate these qualities to the point where it drives people away whereas FLGSs typically do not. I've never had FLGS employees try to sell me stuff that they know is crap (in fact, I've had some caution me against buying things), but I have had a red shirt try and convince me that Pariahs are a great addition to a Necron army.

You point out that every business has douchebag employees, but the fact that it is commonplace for gamers to complain specifically about the douchebaggery of GW salesmen is an indication of a problem. It all comes down to their management practices.

What's worse? Having a staff member acknowledge and greet you when you walk in, say hello and ask you what you are looking for and wear a red shirt, or having a zombie, stuffing his face full of sandwhich stare at you from the time you walk in, and look around and not ask you a thing? Personally, I find the second worse.

I had an Flgs staffer tell me how terrible the GW paints were, and try to push me into another type of paints, and when I asked him how long he had used the GW paints, he said never. So I asked him how he could compare them if he hadn't tried them both? There are those in both GW stores and FLGS stores that just aren't good and there are those in both places that are good, it's not like GW has the market on moronic staff.

legoburner wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Greebynog wrote:Tell you what's worse than pushy sales, I went into a LGS in central London last week looking for some paint, and as I walked in I just got this glare from the blokes in there, they went silent and just stared at me as I walked to the bit where the paint was. They then turned their backs on me and carried on talking. I had to say 'excuse me' three times before they turned, again glaring, to me and asked what I wanted, I told them, they said they didn't have it and turned their back. I'm not off in there again, I'll tell thee that. I can only assume that they were thrown by the sight of someone who had showered entering the shop.

Which one was that?

I'm curious too. The only LGS in central london proper that I am aware of is the Orc's Nest which could sort of match that description. Great range there though if you want anything non-GW.

Cookie for Legoburner! Spot on, I was just pottering about Covent Garden towards Soho, saw a LGS, was well pleased and wandered in....the rest as they say, is history. Not a pleasurable experience, perhaps a bad day?

At the Chicago Bunker that I go to the staff really doesn't force you to not play old armies. I saw a squats player a few weeks ago. He was running it with his own "5th edition squats update" and having a great time. The staff there came by and oggled the classic models and that was about it.

I'm not trying to refute the OP, but I think that GW's policies are more store based than anything else. I think the GM has more power than is normally credited them. It sounds like the stores you were in just had bad employees. At least I hope thats the case.

Maybe I just love the bunker and am blind to it's flaws.

Daft thing is, I've been aware of Orc's Nest for Donkies years, ever since it advertised in White Dwarf. And despite living 40 minutes from Charing Cross by train, have I ever been? Nope!

Must change that, and soon!

The hobby side of the Seattle Bunker is outstanding. The Shop part leaves a little to be desired. The staff there is great, in fact my gaming group is almost entirely previous staff members.

They have a fairly high turnover which is disappointing, just when you get used to one, he's either been chased out, or found something better paying. But for the level of the job in the area, that's fairly par for the course.

They seem to be having serious issues restocking. Especially on things I can't really find an excuse to be out of. Ultramarines Blue paint for example. I say seem to because I also usually see several empty rows for blisters, and slots for boxed sets, but I haven't looked closely enough to know if those were for discontinued or just out-of-stock items. It is sad I usually have to (and now prefer) going to an independant retailer 20 minutes away for both a better chance of what I want being in stock, and for a better overall selection to boot.

Just a little one that some people might not know about- (not sure about in the states) but if anything is ever out of stock that should be in stock at the store- the staffer should be able to sort it out to get it delievered to your abode free of charge...

Which basically means when the guy who had a lottery win and bought all of the IG tanks in the store- everyone who wanted one afterwards got to have theirs delieverd to their house.... which made us popular with mailorder

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Daft thing is, I've been aware of Orc's Nest for Donkies years, ever since it advertised in White Dwarf. And despite living 40 minutes from Charing Cross by train, have I ever been? Nope!

Must change that, and soon!

It's not worth a pilg just for Orc's Nest. Make sure to plan something else for the day as well.