I have faced a few demon armies now and after the initial learning phase for the new generals they all seem to break down into a common pattern...

50+ % Nurgle
The remainder Slaanesh/Tzeentch
0-1% Khorne. Cool models but overpriced for the mechanics of this army and what it can do.
Oh and usually 2 or 3 Soulgrinders that drop the pie plate.

All this is somewhat understandable but I am questioning how effective this army will ever be. In my local environment, most people are playing very vehicle light so it is troops. In this context, I think they are workable given the vagaries of which half of your army you get, where they deep strike in and when the reinforcements come in.

I will say I am curious if any demon army ever has a prayer against the Stelek DH 7 landraiders with 5 mystical inquisitors. I don't even think this would be a fun game for either player. But taking a step back... How would demons fair with 3 landraiders or DH inquisitors backing up marine vindicators?

To me the cost of all the demon stuff looks good on paper but in comparison with other armies it is junk.

Why plaguebearers always as the base? They are the only thing that can stand up to enemy fire maybe tzeentch due to their improved invulnerables but nothing matches a plaguebearer... My laugh is that bloodletters cost more than any other base trooper... Power weapon, weapons skill, furious charge... sounds awesome but see what happens when 10 to 15 of them get in the sights of a devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters or 4 heavy plasmas. All the combat prowess in the world doesn't matter if you are a bunch of goo right where you landed.

Demon princes seem cool and I have seen 1 or 2 but to get them safely into close combat, it seems why play them when you can play soulgrinders that can dropp the pie plate from the back and eliminate troops.

Now we come to the joys of anti-tank... what do you have? A 3BS option on a soulgrinder (never seen it taken). Bolt of Change on 1 pink horror (again BS 3 and really challenged to take out the real heavy armor) and then charging it. Sounds good but I have rarely seen anyone charge towards demons usually it is stand and fire or charge before being charged. So we are left with flying demon lords or princes and probably at least surviving 2 enemy firephases... doesn't seem likely.

My feeling is that demons are colorful, win because most opposing commanders don't really know the strengths of the demons (and half the time the strengths and weaknesses of their own armies.) Anyways this is my view as an opposing commander. I would like to see some answers from demon commanders and what they feel:

What army builds work for you? Are any truly consistent? Do you think you could field one and win against quality opponents in a rogue trader or hard boyz with them? Are there certain opposing armies you might as well pick it up before you play unless your dice only roll 5's and 6's?

Just looking at the book you can see it's going to have a problem with AV14.
But Khorne sucks? Dude, Bloodcrushers are tough, and powerful. And they can take an icon. I think they are an excellent unit.

Daemons are definitely not at the top end of the competitiveness spectrum but they have a few viable builds for tournament play.

A daemon army with two bloodthirsters, 3 grinders, maxed bloodcrushers and as many plaguebearers as you can fit will be difficult for most armies to deal with. Sure it will have trouble with land raider spam but most armies will have trouble with land raider spam. But find an army that can deal with 24 crushers in CC or can mass enough firepower to bring down that many crushers while simultaneously dealing with grinder armor and dislodging plaguebearers from objectives.

Admittedly Daemons probably only have a couple really strong army lists but most codices are like that these days. Of course it doesn't help daemons that one of its toughest lists requires you to spend around $500 on the bloodcrushers alone.

Love the bloodcrushers, and glad to hear that they are effective.

I guess I am lamenting that the cool looking troop choice bloodletters just seem like worthless.

I am not arguing about hoards of plaguebearers being effective just sad that daemonettes and bloodletters are kind of poor third cousins with pink horros being maybe step-brothers. Kind of boring to me that with all the options, they have you really have no options. Like saying you can pay me a dollar and I will give you 4 quarters, 4 dimes, 4 nickels or 4 pennies.... what do you want?
(I will admit, I am an idiot and I like reddish things so I would love to play a khorne themed army but I think it would be a waste of time for me and for any opponents I played.)

Oh and 500$ for the bloodcrusher hoard explains why I haven't seen that one yet.

Against any army that has a significant amount of infantry Daemons are a great army and more than capable of butchering through their ranks in vast swathes.

Unfortunately through a very minor detail GW gave a cheap HQ that can ally with any Imperial army a 12 point retinue that is an instant IWIN button against virtually any daemon force.

If you end up playing 'THAT GUY', you will not have a good time.

An interesting army is Kugath, GUO, 2-3 Soul Grinders, a Nurgle Beastie or two, and the rest Plaguebearers... 40 minimum.

Effectively the melee version of Necrons. Poison lets you wound any non-armor and you have great survivability with FNP.

Slow? Yes.
Does it win? Ties some, wins more often.
Beats LR Spam? Ties a lot.
Ugly army? That's a yes.

Sad thing is that Bloodletters are sweet if they engage, but they get mauled by shooting. Demonettes even more so. Tzeentch should be all or nothing. That leaves Plaguebearers as the troop of choice. Your only decision is how many over 40 do you want. Not really that much fun.

The demon armies that did the best at the LVGT where Khorne based, the others did not do as well.

Steleks 7 LR army was at 2500 points. You are losing 3 LR at 1750. The LR army is tough, but it really does not put out all that much fire power. If you hit it with a couple of Greater Demons and some Demon Princes, you should win.

As to your original question of are they viable? Maybe. You will get a good mix of opinions about this. The are some who like them, and can win a lot with them, but they have so many dice rolls that you can win a 3 game RTT with them now and then, but over a 5 game GT style format you will have bad luck in one or 2 games that your play will not be able to over come.

Blackmoor wrote:The demon armies that did the best at the LVGT where Khorne based, the others did not do as well.

Steleks 7 LR army was at 2500 points. You are losing 3 LR at 1750. The LR army is tough, but it really does not put out all that much fire power. If you hit it with a couple of Greater Demons and some Demon Princes, you should win.

As to your original question of are they viable? Maybe. You will get a good mix of opinions about this. The are some who like them, and can win a lot with them, but they have so many dice rolls that you can win a 3 game RTT with them now and then, but over a 5 game GT style format you will have bad luck in one or 2 games that your play will not be able to over come.

MCs need 6s to hit a moving vehicle.Not a easy work.

tokugawa wrote:
MCs need 6s to hit a moving vehicle.Not a easy work.

If they are moving that fast, then they sure aren't shooting much.

Blackmoor wrote:

tokugawa wrote:
MCs need 6s to hit a moving vehicle.Not a easy work.

If they are moving that fast, then they sure aren't shooting much.

And that means they are usually hitting on 4's

I have been pretty succesful with them but have yet to play against a DH army. The mission also dictates the stlye I play. Kill points I play more conservative while objective based missions I go more aggressive.

I've got a mono khorne 1.5k force, i've only played 5-6 games with it and only lost one i've also won more than drawn, it may not be uber competitive but it's not a walk over.

Didn't daemon armiess do pretty well at Las Vegas?

A few things, Demons can definitely be competitive. Epidimus lists are very powerful and Bllodcrushers hordes are equally hard to deal with. Like all armies, they have competitive army lists. About Bloodletters, these can work, but you cannot rambo with them. You must use terrain to your advantage. Either deepstriking behind terrain to block like of sight, or close to terrain so you can run into it and get a cover save from it. It is most definitely an army that you must play smart with.

Erm you can fit 5 or 6 LR into 1750, Blackmoor.

Most Demon armies are easily beaten for several major reasons, all of which are crippling.

The drop. Absolutely horrid mechanics all the way around.

Besides plaguebearers (which don't kill much) the troops suffer from a lack of armor saves but are costed like marines.

Tanks. The inability to deal with them in any reliable manner makes them a serious pain.

Poor BS, poor shooting--and that's with the SHOOTY version of this army.

Anyone who believes "Demons" are competitive needs to try again. "Bloodcrusher Demons" can be extremely dangerous, something I keep pointing out but only a few have listened.

Besides one build based around plaguebearers, crushers, and whatever else suits your fancy--the whole list is horrible.

Beginning to end, it's a fantasy army in a 40k world and does just as you'd expect it to--badly.

Saying Demons aren't a good army because they have to use bloodcrushers to be any good is like saying that tyranids aren't a good army because they have to use carnifexes to be any good.

Or that orks aren't a good army list because they have to use lootas to do well.


Demons are good. Demons have bad matchups, but so does everyone else.

Where demon's get their bad rap is from new demon players. Demons are a difficult army to play, hard to build balanced lists when you don't have play experience. I think saying that people that have experience playing against demons can just completely shut them down is a misconception.

I just recently played a game against Somnicide with my entirely mechanized eldar army. My army has not completed the tuning process, but Somnicide was trying some new things. He bought my demon models off of me. We've developed the tactics he uses for demons together. I know exactly what he wants to do, and how I should stop that.

I lost the annihilation scenario 6 to 5. Luck was not a factor, the only odds-bucking events all were in my favor.

I think he's getting ready to put up the batrep, when he does I'll link it here. I could use some criticism on my play or my list maybe. But I think it goes a long way to disproving the 'mobility myth' and the 'not good at killing tanks' myths. If a tank has 10 rear armor. It isn't more of a problem for demons than other armies. If its a land raider, well, I can list you about 15 army books that have problems with land raiders.

edit: here's the batrep http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/218822.page

Demons don't get meltaguns, Shep.

So Land Raiders can drive them off objectives, and prevent KP loss.

It's an unbalanced force without the usual reliability other armies have.

That is what puts it into the fun category.

So, basically any army without meltas is in the fun category? What about S8+2d6 from a flying monstrous creature? Land Raiders are a hard nut to crack for most armies.

I think it is hard to argue with the success of some daemon players out there unless you want to sum it all up to luck and discount them completely.

Anyway, once more, I will just agree to disagree on this for the time being. :-)

Stelek wrote:Demons don't get meltaguns, Shep.

So Land Raiders can drive them off objectives, and prevent KP loss.

It's an unbalanced force without the usual reliability other armies have.

That is what puts it into the fun category.

Orks don't get meltaguns either. Orks are worse from range at taking out land raiders, and i wouldn't say they are any better in CC at killing them.

I think the new dakka 'land raider' fascination is a little overblown. I'm going to find a guy to play this weekend that can proxy up 4 LRs, and I'll put some orks against him and some demons too. There are tons of armies that, when built correctly, can't handle land raiders. I don't really know what that means.

I sold my demons, because there are some things i don't like about them. For me it is too stressful to rely on 'important' rolls. there are a few too many clutch rolls both in armor saves and in scatter rolls for me to be comfortable playing them in a tourney. I stressed myself there because some people don't mind the stress, and understand that the odds are dialed in their favor. Without buckets of dice, I just don't feel like I can take the 'bad luck' feeling. It's too distracting for me at a big tourney. You have to keep your concentration up, even after a bad scatter or failing a cluster of 3+ saves.

Would I write off my opponent at a tourney if he played demons as an easy win? Absolutely not.

2 Greater Daemons and 3 DPs should have a decent time penning landraiders, even str6+2d6 with about 4 attacks, hitting half of them due to moving and shooting raiders, is going to do ok.

The blood crushers can mop up anything else.

If you really need, it, they do have Screamers.


Are they going to have a hard time vs 7 land raiders? Yeah, but who isn't?

Not everyone runs 2 GD and 3 DP, ferrous. Against alot of armies, that isn't exactly a 'win' build. For alot of reasons.

Shep, Orks have a terrible time killing Land Raiders but a nob biker unit is very killy against them (and most everything else).

However making a list designed to force the other guy to kill your AV14 to make any headway is a big deal in 5th. Armored tank companies are no joke if you can't get to them fast enough, 9 LR will blow a hole in your army.

Bloodcrushers can handle *most* things. They cannot handle Land Raiders nor quite a few other things in the game--but I think for the demons, they are excellent all-arounders.

Writing off opponents really depends on what army you are playing and what they are playing. I personally have enough experience to hand people a defeat unless it's a rock/paper/scissors situation. Then I can usually fight them to a draw or a win. Alot of people don't have that, and alot of those people think demons are scary. Once people start making 5th edition lists and learn how to play the game system better, demons will fall right into 'niche, fun, for experienced vets only'. In my opinion, anyway.

My vote goes with Stelek. I've tried to make Demons work, and I haven't given up, but really only a few units make the cut.

Can you build a list to specifically beat LR spam? You can come close with 5 MC's... and then die horribly to a gunline army because all of your points are tied up in so few wounds.

It's rock/paper/scissors but demons are either crepe paper or some kindergarden safety scissors because they don't do their job well and they sure aren't a rock.

Wildstorm wrote:It's rock/paper/scissors but demons are either crepe paper or some kindergarden safety scissors because they don't do their job well and they sure aren't a rock.

LOL! Sigged.

Wildstorm wrote:My vote goes with Stelek. I've tried to make Demons work, and I haven't given up, but really only a few units make the cut.

Sorry to hear you are having trouble.

Wildstorm wrote:Can you build a list to specifically beat LR spam? You can come close with 5 MC's... and then die horribly to a gunline army because all of your points are tied up in so few wounds.

I'll let you know after this weekend. There's a lot of talk about how you won't be able to hurt land raiders who move more than 6" a turn.

I'm REALLY starting to question what the hell a LR army is going to over 6 turns of play by shooting 4 guns a turn. I mean seriously? Are we saying that firing 4 assault cannons a turn is going to win you the game? Are we also saying that over 6 turns of a game, that even strength 8 shots won't eventually cripple a land raider or two, especially when they aren't doing anything to supress firepower?

Ultimately, I'd wager that its less about 'killing 4 land raiders' and more about understanding the rules of tank shock.

I mean if you are just going to drive around waiting for the later turns, and then park on an objective, any demon army with a tiny unit of screamers can just park the screamers in a line in front of an objective, hopefully in cover, and just take cover all game. tank shock that objective now ,or shoot them with your 4 heavy weapons.. all the while running from the unkillable bloodthirsters...

LRC with marine rules actually do this, shep:

Fire the multi-melta at your tanks.

Fire the TL bolters and the TL assault cannon at your infantry.

x3.

Up close and personal, it's deadly.

I got out alot in my first game at the ard boyz.

I barely got out in my second and third.

I didn't even have the marine rules on 4 of those LR, just the 3 LRC...and I tabled the latter 2 opponents. I beat the first guy but I should have tabled him too (learning the army and what not to do).

Stelek wrote:
I didn't even have the marine rules on 4 of those LR, just the 3 LRC...and I tabled the latter 2 opponents. I beat the first guy but I should have tabled him too (learning the army and what not to do).

The free nature of the 'Ard Boyz means that you get anybody and everybody showing up to play. The wheat gets separated from the chaff, as we separate the 'Ard from the soft.

In the next round you "should" not be able to table your opponents, if not lose outright, and in the finals I would imagine that your Land Raiders would have a tough go of it.

I wonder how many times one has to say they can't play in the semi-finals.

Well, here's once more.

I don't agree with your analysis, it's very difficult (if not impossible) to make a list that can knock out my list and a horde army.

Tau and Sisters seem to have the best bet to do both.

Everyone else...not as much. Eldar perhaps.

Not sure how many other 'super' lists are getting to the finals, though.

I think Eldar scale very well to 2500 where most other armies falter past 2000.

Oh and I think the nature of the ard boyz this year (cluster all the way) has left many gamers out in the cold.

Followed up by poor semi-finals store placements (free isn't free if you gotta drive 6+ hours) and the laughable prize support (sure...it's an army, really!)...well, it's my guess it won't be 'big' this year in comparison to last year.

Stelek wrote:
I don't agree with your analysis, it's very difficult (if not impossible) to make a list that can knock out my list and a horde army.

Tau and Sisters seem to have the best bet to do both.

Everyone else...not as much. Eldar perhaps.

Not sure how many other 'super' lists are getting to the finals, though.

SAFH Space Marines will slow this army down with a lot of lascannons. It might take a while to kill Land Raiders, they will stun them a lot.

SAFH IG with a lot of Lascannons.

The 9 Oblit+Troop shooting will stop the LR army.

Eldar can beat it with a combination of Bright Lances, Fusion Guns/Pistols and Singing Spears.

You mean, the old dex? lol who cares what the old dex can do.

New dex cannot stop LR spam without meltaguns. If you think they can do it with lascannons, you really need to rethink that position.

9 oblits get...obliterated. Sorry to say, I tabled the oblit part of the lash army every time with my 7 LR army. Plague Marines caused me some trouble. Nothing else did. I think a chaos LR rush with PM and termies w/combi weapons will give the list a hell of a go.

Eldar need BL to slow them down, that's all they can hope for. How many wave serpents with TL BL are coming? 6? 8? How many will survive the return fire? Gotta bring a very heavy mech list to kill the army that way, and I'll take 7 LR against 8 WS every day of the week. Fusion Guns will stop them. How they get delivered is another question.

Singing spears don't do squat to LR. Any squad comes that close to a LR is going to get annihilated by either what's inside the LR's or the LR's.

Just wondering why you think S9 shots from across the board will stop the LR? I had one LR get immobilized from a S9 shot in 11 games. I ran over a guard army that had 12 of them firing at me. Lost a couple weapons on the way over, made the guard player not come to the ard boyz. That and the blood angel horde that was coming turned him off too. lol

Anyway, back to the OP, before this turns into another 'only the best can beat Stelek' thread...

I play an entirely Slaaneshi Daemon army. I've expected to get tabled at every game I've played so far, but I've been pleasantly surprised that they've only had wins and draws.

I just think it's a matter of getting used to a new army and finding out what parts of that army are now important. I've never put as much thought to DS locations as I do now!!

As far as the slaanesh units go, i find Daemonettes and Fiends really need to be taken at maximum squad size to be effective, though I often field a reserve 10 daemonettes to be dropped on a far flung objective. KOS, DP, and tounge Soulgrinders are your anti-tank. As many posters have pointed out, it's really not too hard to kill tanks in CC with MCs, provided they haven't moved too far, and if they HAVE moved far, they're not a threat.

I don't think I'd choose to play against the kind of beardy git who brings 4 Land Raiders or 9 Leman Russ to a normal sized game.

Ah but 5 MC and 24 crushers is acceptable.

Interesting ethical view.

IMHO, I would think the super-shooty version of the Daemon army (most Tzeentch built around Fateweaver to allow you to re-roll your Invulnerable Saves; I played against Blackmoor who was using this army and I was pretty impressed) would do pretty well in GTs.

The fact that you don't need to deploy so close to the enemy reduces the effectiveness of Mystics and if you can get Fateweaver down first and drop the army around him you should be able to easily survive any firing that does come your way (not counting Psycannons of course).

I think this army type also works well with the uneven cohort concept in that if you don't get all your good stuff on the first turn you're able to deploy the bad stuff in protected areas and then on the next turn when you get most of your good stuff in you're still able to move and shoot with the bad stuff that landed the turn before.


While it is true that this type of army is going to have a really hard time against certain opponents, that is true of most armies. The fact is, when you go to a GT you generally aren't going to face all the same types of armies and I believe that against most armies, this Daemon force can do quite well.


I would love to get an army build somehow and give it a try but I think I'd have to go with the pro-painted route to make that a reality at this point.

Me too yak. (Pro-painted)

I still like my pavane/tzeentch list, it's annoying.

Kairos in a tzeentch army makes for a kill resistant force but my primary concerns are it can't stop mech and it can't handle assault armies. Gonna be alot of those coming out, and marines will use Null Zone to break his back.

I don't really consider CC vs vehicles something I want to rely upon for a win, as it's so easily mitigated...but demons are forced to do so to get the best results.

If I played Kairos with shooty tzeentch demons, here's how every important fight would go.

I nominate the group with Kairos to come in 1st. Roll: 1. OK so he's not coming in, I'll just hide this stuff until he shows up on turn 2.
Turn 2: Lets roll for Kairos, Roll: 1
Turn 3: Come on Kairos, Roll: 1
Turn 4: Kairos, buddy, pal... Roll: 1
Turn 5: Haha, he's in automatically! My icons are all dead though... I'll just try to put him someplace safe. Drift 12", mishap table, back into reserves.
Random game length, roll: 1

Just as planned?

It would be extremely rare, but you'd better believe this kind of garbage would jump on you at Table 1 in the last round of a GT.

Thanks Stelek for the land raider bit, before this weekend I'm going to need to get very familiar with the "real" land raider rules before testing. Not the land-raiders of the step-children armies I'm not qualified to say if they are good or not, I'm just skeptical that 1k points for 4 models has some intrinsic advantage over easier to kill, but more numerous models. As always, I'll wait for the emprirical evidence.

As to the Kairos versus mech thing. If we are talking armor 12 mech, I don't think they are disadvantaged at all. Kairos would bring triple sniper princes instead of soulgrinders, as the re-rollable 4+ trumps the armor 13 survivability. With Kairos, the changeling horror unit and 3x BS5 bolts, I think this list would have adequate shooting. Check the batrep somnicide posted if you are worried about spam armor 12.

@ Moz... haha totally, fickle is the changer of ways...

Stelek wrote:
Kairos in a tzeentch army makes for a kill resistant force but my primary concerns are it can't stop mech and it can't handle assault armies. Gonna be alot of those coming out, and marines will use Null Zone to break his back.

Well, Tzeentch has BoT to counter vehicles somewhat. Also, I do not see a lot of Mech armies around anymore. I think kill points has slowed them down quite a bit. Also every army has it bad match-ups. Centurian99 won the Chicago GT and the Adepticon Gladiator with his stealer shock list, but if he ever played against a mech skimmer list he would have lost.

As far as assault goes, a Tzeentch list needs Demon Princes. Not only are they your counter-assault, but with Kairos they are very hard to kill. That is the big advantage they have over soul grinders is that they can take advantage of his re-roll.

Until DH show up and rock/paper/scissors them too.

I'm just saying there are way too many 'foils' for the demons to deal with and not be some kind of crazy battleforce looking army with lots of everything instead of everything in lots.

I much prefer an army that can beat ANY army, not just beat 'most' armies except [insert army type here].

Or at least have a shot at it, to make it a game. Not a 'well, good game' thing before setup.

Just my personal feelings.

I am not sure how AV12 is dealt with by S5 shooting. If you are referring to chimeras, those are AV10 where it counts...

Bolt of Tzeentch is S8 AP1 so even a glance can destroy.

And as a daemon player I am okay having an uphill game against Daemonhunters - since they really suck against most everything else, it is only fair ;-)

edit: oh yeah, and I was relieved to see that null zone only works on the SM players turn, meaning it will suck for shooting, but will be okay for units in close combat.

Moz wrote:

I nominate the group with Kairos to come in 1st. Roll: 1. OK so he's not coming in, I'll just hide this stuff until he shows up on turn 2.
Turn 2: Lets roll for Kairos, Roll: 1
Turn 3: Come on Kairos, Roll: 1
Turn 4: Kairos, buddy, pal... Roll: 1
Turn 5: Haha, he's in automatically! My icons are all dead though... I'll just try to put him someplace safe. Drift 12", mishap table, back into reserves.
Random game length, roll: 1

Just as planned?

Well of course if the 1st 5 turns you roll nothing but 1s you will lose, how many armys could live through that. There is the same chance they get nothing but 6s for the 1st 5 turns and then your almost sure to win.

Try planing it based of all 3-4 and see where it gets you.

I am fairly certain Moz was just joking...

I've been playtesting Khorne armies, and as previously discussed those are 'ard as nails.

For 'Ardboyz I've booted my trusty chariots and I'm going with Kairos. I've seen Kairos plus massed crushers flex Ork charges.

40kenthusiast wrote:I've been playtesting Khorne armies, and as previously discussed those are 'ard as nails.

For 'Ardboyz I've booted my trusty chariots and I'm going with Kairos. I've seen Kairos plus massed crushers flex Ork charges.

Explain please how Kairos isn't dead from Lootas, and I guess I'll understand why you seem to think Demons are 'good'.

Also explain how 'Khorne armies' are hard as nails--they're slow as and for troops they're horrible.

If you are talking about bloodcrushers, that isn't a khorne army--that's a bloodcrusher army and everything else added to it is secondary.

maxed loota mob, getting the full 3 shots each, will mathhammer less than 1.5 wounds on fateweaver. a Ld9 test isn't the end of the world. And if I make it to my turn 2, Fateweaver's still up, and you haven't done significant damage to whatever else is still on the board? The match is in my favour already.

A suicide flamer squad or some pink horrors can cut lootas down to half or so without much work, at which point they're forcing Ld8 or 9 morales from shooting already.

Now, I'm beginning to suspect the daemon codex went back in time and roughed you up in high school Stelek, because for a rationally thinking human being you're being a little knee-jerk about the whole thing. So far the only evidence of this army's poor quality is that it's particularly vulnerable to land raider spam like virtually everyone else, as well as some things from the DH codex which were written specifically to cripple daemon armies. It goes without saying that these rules were brought in long before a full 40k daemons codex had even been dreamed up, let alone hammered out.

Now, I don't think anyone's proclaiming daemons to take the top spot in the baltimore GT just yet, but speaking for myself I'm enjoying the army enough to try and push it as far as it'll go. In the meantime, why is it so hard for us stick to a reasonable, constructive (I may need throw some bold or colours on that last one for emphasis in the future) discussion on the subject?

The Defenestrator wrote:maxed loota mob, getting the full 3 shots each, will mathhammer less than 1.5 wounds on fateweaver. a Ld9 test isn't the end of the world. And if I make it to my turn 2, Fateweaver's still up, and you haven't done significant damage to whatever else is still on the board? The match is in my favour already.

A suicide flamer squad or some pink horrors can cut lootas down to half or so without much work, at which point they're forcing Ld8 or 9 morales from shooting already.

Now, I'm beginning to suspect the daemon codex went back in time and roughed you up in high school Stelek, because for a rationally thinking human being you're being a little knee-jerk about the whole thing. So far the only evidence of this army's poor quality is that it's particularly vulnerable to land raider spam like virtually everyone else, as well as some things from the DH codex which were written specifically to cripple daemon armies. It goes without saying that these rules were brought in long before a full 40k daemons codex had even been dreamed up, let alone hammered out.

Now, I don't think anyone's proclaiming daemons to take the top spot in the baltimore GT just yet, but speaking for myself I'm enjoying the army enough to try and push it as far as it'll go. In the meantime, why is it so hard for us stick to a reasonable, constructive (I may need throw some bold or colours on that last one for emphasis in the future) discussion on the subject?

Just in case someone didn't see it directly above mine, QFMT. (The 'M' stands for maximum.)

Hmmm... I wonder if they have any restrictions on what kind of 2500 pt army you get if you win 1st in the next round of `Ard Boyz. Maybe I could get a Blood Crusher army instead of the Tau I think I want.

Hmmm if you only run 1 unit of lootas, I suppose he'd stay around longer than anticipated.

Most ork armies run 2 or 3 units of lootas.

Even just 2 units rolling average is 60 shots.

20 hit.

16.34 wound.

10.7844 saved.

5.5556 wounds.

3.666696 re-saved, so roughly 2 wounds land.

Now add a third unit of lootas, and goodbye.

I'm sorry you are stuck in 'orks must be run as hordes' mode still.

I'm sorry I'm disappointed in a NEW book for 40k and it's nowhere near as good as even the DH, regarded by most players as one of the worst books.

I should applaud when crap floats to the top?

Gee, let me.

I played a game with 2x BT & 3x Winged DP against an LR spam army (BT) and rolled right through them. The KPs for the raiders was quite tasty too.

G

Stelek,

A couple of things:

You continue to use the absolute worst case scenario to try to prove your point. While what you say is true, the fact is, the variabilities of the terrain, deployment, etc. play a huge part as to how the whole game will play out.

The Daemon player is going to get to fire at the Orks first, which means they're going to try to target whatever units threaten them the most. Of course, Orks have huge numbers and can prevent the Daemons from landing near their Lootas if they want but the Daemon player also has the ability to potentially land Fateweaver out of LOS on most tables, provided he doesn't get a terrible scatter.

There are things in a Tzeentch shooty army that can mess Orks up pretty badly. The Blue Scribes are able to use the Pavane of Slaanesh to move a unit of Orks into a giant clump in front of a unit of flamers that has just landed. They even have a 50% chance of using the power a second time on a different unit too.


The Lootas are definitely an issue for the Daemons because of their long range it makes it damn near impossible to Deep Strike far away and play the out-shoot game, but Lootas are stationary and depending on the terrain it can be entirely possible to Deep Strike to an area that has limited LOS to the Lootas and then make your strikes from that point.

It's also possible to have a pretty good amount of 'breath of Chaos' attacks in a Tzeentch army. Flamers have it, so does the Blue Scribes (as can as Heralds on a Chariot), Fateweaver has it (a regular LoC can too), and Daemon Princes can all take it.


Overall it is a game I would like to play, and that's more than I can say for a lot of armies vs. the Ork horde with maxed Lootas.

If Sean Connery says it can be good, then surely it's true! Really I wouldn't mind playing a full Tzeentch army, if for no other reason than an excuse to model up Fateweaver, Blue Scribes, my own custom Pink Horror Herald, and all the other freakish things I could think of from the master of mutation.

Ah yes, that makes your whole case for you--a horrible demon army WON once.

Grats you.

yakface wrote:
You continue to use the absolute worst case scenario to try to prove your point. While what you say is true, the fact is, the variabilities of the terrain, deployment, etc. play a huge part as to how the whole game will play out.

I'm going off the terrain at the GT's, where there was what...one whole piece of LOS blocking terrain for Kairos on every ten boards?

yakface wrote:
The Daemon player is going to get to fire at the Orks first, which means they're going to try to target whatever units threaten them the most. Of course, Orks have huge numbers and can prevent the Daemons from landing near their Lootas if they want but the Daemon player also has the ability to potentially land Fateweaver out of LOS on most tables, provided he doesn't get a terrible scatter.

Really? Land out of LOS on "most tables"? Where? He's a nice big model and you can't hide him on "most tables".

If you land him so far away and out of LOS, ummm...so what ya gonna do to win? He doesn't have a huge range. So you'll castle up in the corner and let me attrition you to death? I like this plan.

I will say it clear as day: You cannot hide Kairos and run him. The army just doesn't work that way.

yakface wrote:
There are things in a Tzeentch shooty army that can mess Orks up pretty badly. The Blue Scribes are able to use the Pavane of Slaanesh to move a unit of Orks into a giant clump in front of a unit of flamers that has just landed. They even have a 50% chance of using the power a second time on a different unit too.

A giant clump? I guess if I didn't deploy my orks in a long line, sure. Max coherency beats pavane, especially since you can only pavane once.

If you have more than 3 or 4 flamers it's going to be difficult to get more than 3 of them on anyone anyway, so what are we really talking about?

5? 10 orks dead? Fine by me.

yakface wrote:
The Lootas are definitely an issue for the Daemons because of their long range it makes it damn near impossible to Deep Strike far away and play the out-shoot game, but Lootas are stationary and depending on the terrain it can be entirely possible to Deep Strike to an area that has limited LOS to the Lootas and then make your strikes from that point.

Since the Ork player can deploy anywhere they like, and the demon player can't...why would an Ork player not setup his army perfectly to force a long (and dangerous) drop far away?

yakface wrote:
It's also possible to have a pretty good amount of 'breath of Chaos' attacks in a Tzeentch army. Flamers have it, so does the Blue Scribes (as can as Heralds on a Chariot), Fateweaver has it (a regular LoC can too), and Daemon Princes can all take it.

All of them risk destruction getting that template close.

Everyone keeps saying how breath is awesome, but they don't show us how they land straight away and not risk destruction.

Please explain.

yakface wrote:
Overall it is a game I would like to play, and that's more than I can say for a lot of armies vs. the Ork horde with maxed Lootas.

I don't mind any of it really, lootas are powerful but there's a trump for everybody.

stelek I challenge you with my daemon army. You can bring whatever you want to play.

G

Lovely.

Should I bring a fun army so you have a chance? A anti-demon army so you don't? A competitive army so you don't?

Oh and you'll need to come here, I'm certainly not going out of my way to play you.

you can bring whatever you want on the condition you don't say you are bringing a FUN army. And one other condition / if you lose you can't post on Dakka Dakka for three months. And the game has to be played at a neutral site. I suggest you bring your new Sternguard list since you think it is hot.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:you can bring whatever you want on the condition you don't say you are bringing a FUN army. And one other condition / if you lose you can't post on Dakka Dakka for three months. And the game has to be played at a neutral site.

G

We insist on a BatRep.

with lots I pix!!!

When I win, what then chuckles?

I won't post here for three months.

G

Stelek: I was reading your blog yesterday, worried I had got the wrong impression of you. That's when I stumbled across this line in your 'mission' post, on your blog:

"I think alot of people believe tactics are meaningless in 40k. I know alot of people believe you can just write a list and autobeat the other guy with some dice rolling that is statistically average."

I have to warn you, you come across strongly as one of those people here. Daemons always have, and always will look sub-standard from a codex flip-through. because it's not a firebase army, where you can count the number of shots you'll get every single turn. Tt's not a "I push 150 models across the table at you through cover" army, knowing at what exact turn your units will arrive where you want them, and in what overall condition. There are far more intangibles to be considered. Another line from your mission page:

"So my mission? To give every player the tools to make a better list. To understand tactics without having to go to military school. To grasp the fundamentals of the game system without having to have a law degree."

I don't see that anywhere in this thread, or any others we have mutually posted on. All I'm hearing is derision and scorn for even CONSIDERING a codex that's not already established as T1. Which is pretty much what you were doing with your sisters LVGT list, right? Playing an army most hadn't even considered?

Oh, and for the record, the GBF/Stelek match would surely be a good read, but will be essentially meaningless. Stelek could table GBF with the worst, fluffiest list he can come up with, or vice versa. It only speaks for the two players, and their particular performance and list choices that day. Like all individually observed matches. Personally, I recommend against it as it doesn't sound like either of you would actually ENJOY it, so intent on proving a point. But you're both adults, play away.

thanks for your meaningless analysis... And it is utterly meaningless.

G

am i the only one feeling the sexual tension here?

On topic, I'm still unable to really acess demons at GT level, but at local store level i'm still finding they beat most armies. Now I'm the only player of demons there, so it is a little novel; but the thing i think i have to focus on most is terrain, no army needs LOS blocking terrain more than demons. I think that once more places have better '5th ed terrain' demons will do even better.

For the most part Stelek has sound tactics with his opinions. I question the quality of his opponents!

It does not matter who plays what or does what. Luck comes into play often while playing 40k. Some random lucky roll to penetrate vehicle happens and all is lost. 40k is a game of inches and sometimes you come up an inch short.

Demons are good if opponent has no idea what they do. People learn what they do and win pct. for demons drops.

sex tension heh... These forums are not a place to air your dirty laundry so take it elsewhere bub. The good news for you is the Internet is rife with it so just look elsewhere.

G

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:
Demons are good if opponent has no idea what they do. People learn what they do and win pct. for demons drops.

Yeah, fortunately for me I am a big enough jackape that people rarely play me twice and so I am forced to wander southern california looking for new opponents who have yet to see that new fangled daemon codex, then I beat them and disappear to find another unsuspecting noob...

Okay, everyone take a deep breath and repeat: "They are just little plastic space men."
That being said, I have just started a daemon army and have played three games so far; two wins one draw. I run mostly Daemonetts supported with flamers, screamers, a daemon prince, and a squad of plaugebearers. Tanks have been trouble, however MC's and screamers are up to the challenge, at least in my experiences. I play mostly against two Eldar players who tend to field infantry heavy armies. I can see how Daemons would run into trouble against armor 14 vehicles, but with luck and a solid strategy, I think daemons could do just fine.

Screamers are great anti-tank, as are the right tooled up MCs. It's all about the list. Personally, the only weakness is not DSing the turn of assaulting. If I can live through a turn of shooting, I can pretty much win.

Demon thread...

I command you...

RIIIIIISE from your grave!!!!!

I hate changlings........

I once had a railhead fail a leadership test and BOOM there goes the OTHER Railhead.

Daemons are very unique and can be really in a hole if the dice are not with you while deep striking. That being said, there are few armies that can stop a daemon army if the deployment goes well and the deamons survice long enough to assault.

How do they fair against orks?

I want to play demons I think, because no one else in my area is playing them, and they're a very non-marine army. I was thinking of doing an all Tzeentch list, but after my experiences in the latest `Ard Boyz round, I may do all Nurgle instead.

Frazzled wrote:How do they fair against orks?

Only played two Daemons v Ork games. Won both games, but neither was against loota spam. Against loota spam, the game gets a lot tougher, and my guess would be that it comes down to the Daemon player not getting too screwed on DS rolls.

Yeah it really depends on the ork list as they are totally different (nob bikers vs. 3 loota unit horde as extremes).

You can do well against some orks but you will have the same problems with loota spam as... well... every other army in the game. Take 3 soul grinders, that sorts greenskins out fairly well and the best they can hope for with lootas is a glance which you will ignore 2/3 of the time..

To someone new at the game, why are 2 squads of 18 Daemonettes each preferrable to 6 squads of 6 each?

I'm putting together an all-Slaanesh army, and haven't had enough play experience to really grasp how it will tend to unfold.

ialdabaoth wrote:To someone new at the game, why are 2 squads of 18 Daemonettes each preferrable to 6 squads of 6 each?

I'm putting together an all-Slaanesh army, and haven't had enough play experience to really grasp how it will tend to unfold.

The argument for having smaller, broken up units is that firing units can only shoot at single units (unless they're Tau). So even the biggest squad of orcs can only shoot and kill one squad per turn.

The argument against is that Chaos Daemons don't get a 'have as many as you want' rule for troop squads like certain armies have. That and the smaller squads will be easier to kill and give up their kill points faster.

It's a matter of tactics, really, and whether you were going to try to fit anything else into your six troop slots. If you're playing a small enough game and all you have is 36 daemonettes, then having six squads is really impressive, but it might not work out quite as well at 2000.

well, yeah, all I've got is 36 Daemonettes, and I'm going all-Slaanesh. There really aren't that many other Troop choices...

I prefer larger squads because then even after taking some wounds you are still a threat. If there are only 6 daemonettes a unit of IG lasguns will likely reduce you down to one model and a slightly good round of shooting will wipe it out.

I would probably go with 3 units of 12 daemonettes - or even the two units of 18. It is all about threat control - If you have a large number of threats your opponent will just have to decide what they want to take it in the teeth with - a mix of seekers, fiends and daemonettes are pretty awesome for that as they all have a threat range beyond rapid fire range so try and resist the urge to get in there as quickly as possible.

Another idea to try might be a unit of 18, a unit of 12 and a unit of 6 and see how they work out for you - seeing each in play might give you a better idea of what you want to do.

I think the primary problem with Daemons in 40k is the randomness created by the arrive by deepstrike and you get an random half of your army to arrive first and then have to roll everything else by reserves. You needed that Epidemus and didn't roll his half oh well. And there are all the risks of deepstriking.

The arrive by deep strike can also be countered by an DH Inquisitor with 2 mystics which enables a unit within 12 inches to fire upon the arriving demons if they are with in 4d6 of the Inquisitor and Mystics. Eating an Exorcist barrage or Demolisher Cannon puts the hurt on a demon unit before it even gets to fire.

IMO This makes Demons a fun army.

okay all you silly people
fact 1) No army in 40k can beat every other army in tournament play. there are far too many lists or build options ie. mech eldar, nidzilla ork horde, ork shooty, speed freaks, land raider spam, horde tyranids, terminator spam, mech tau, foot mounted tau, templar hordes, sternguard spam (for stelek) no single army can beat every competive build out there. So you build the best army you can and hope not to draw the match up that bones you.

fact 2) daemons have proven in the major tourney's recently that they can be quite competitive look at chicago gt daemons took fifth (that was me) and I think tenth? and if I remember correctly at gt vegas they had a good showing also

fact 3) these are my opinions on the daemons as suited for MY play style they won't work for everybody but I've found that the opinions presented are very well reasoned and applicable.

fact 4) I feel this is the hardest army to learn how to play right and how to play well. This is a super finese army and in the hands of a new player it will fail horribly like a fish on dry land, also if your opponent doesn't know how this book works and you do he will have a very very bad game

fact 5) this is no longer 4th edition!!! most people are thinking that way still it's a whole new ballgame guys. so you need to modify your thinking accordingly

I think the monstrous creatures are the biggest waste of points in the entire book, combat is no longer won by outnumbering your opponent a gazillion to one. It's won on how many kills you do, and a daemon prince is way too overcosted for the number of attacks he gets ( I understand people think he's good for anti tank--see below) a unit of troops in close combat will kill far far more than he can. I feel these are the red herrings of the codex

I personally hate anything nurgle in the daemon book. In my experience it doesn't die very easily which is great for standing back and holding objectives, however they also don't kill very much in close combat, and if some plague bearers are hanging back thats points not being utilized correctly in my opinion. The daemons need all of their units to be trying to kill the enemy, and if plague bearers arn't doing that they are dead weight.

Soulgrinders can be very good SOMETIMES. at the gt I had them land and die on the next turn every game, however at the hard boys they were tearing stuff up left and right. They are great against orks and land raiders, and daemonhunters, (haha str 6 weapons eat that terminators) But them being hit or miss doesn't work out so well. I like ONE in a list or even none but multiples aren't very good

I feel the best way to play the codex is to open a little eye of terror and spew out as many little daemons as you possible can, You get to be one turn away and your opponent (hopefully) can't shoot enough dead to stop you

Bloodletters are the BEST unit in the entire book bar none. the trick is how to get them there and protect them as best as you can There is almost nothing in the entire game that can stand a charge from 15 bloodletters 45 ws5 str5 I5 power weapons!?!?!?!? even 3 or 4 of them is deadly to a unit of marines if they charge I know they can't kill walkers or land raiders but thats not their job

Daemonettes are awesome, they have offensive and defensive grenades at I6 so will almost always be going first with fleet! they dig units out of cover for you bloodletters to kill next turn.

Horrors have a 4 up invul so they operate best in units of around 10 or so dropped right in front of your army. the reasoning is that if they shoot horrors great you get a 4 up save if they shoot stuff behind great your save goes from 5 to 4 if they charge horrors thats even better because you counter charge and kill whatever you want. These guys are surprisingly resiliant sometimes they just dont die, because with a 4+invul most times you can't just chew through a 10 man squad in one turn

the daemon troop units bloodletters and daemonettes should NEVER and I repeat because this is the most important rule to this book NEVER contain less than 15 models. you need big units not lots of smaller ones. because multiple units go in differant places on the board some further away than others and the big unit lets you soak fire and maybe survive just that one more turn to get a charge in. daemonetts i like in unts of 20 but points wise it can be a little much so 16 is the smallest unit size I will go and 16 daemonetts on the charge have 64 attacks that is nothing to sneeze at even though they are str 3 the sheer volume makes up for it and they almost always will be going first even if you charge them then thats 48 attacks going first.

when you play daemons you WILL lose units and you WILL lose models thats how this army works you have buffer units to soak fire and soak charges so your nasty stuff can counter charge and murder it all buffer units being bloodcrushers, horrors, or if you really really want the plague bearers can do it too

Anti-tank: everytime I see posts about daemons everybody is worried about anti tank. This army is one of the best anti tank armies in the game, but nobodys thinking about it from a 5th edition perspective. Bloodletters are one of the best anti tank units in the army. When you charge a tank you hit REAR armour so a bloodletter unit charging a vehicle even if it moved fast and you need 6's can murder almost every tank in the game, the exceptions being walkers, land raiders, and monoliths. Daemonettes are the 3nd best tank killer in the army, but they can kill every walker but the soulgrinder, and seige dreadnaught, which is huge. now you don't see alot of walkers but I expect that you will start seeing many more of them in the future. The 3 tanks that bloodletters and daemonetts can't kill you have to account for, which you can use a soulgrinder if you want to since he's str 10 with 5 attacks. But I prefer the Bloodthirster. The trick is to change your thinking on this model, he is super good at killing tanks probably one of the best in the game period. When you charge from 18 inches away at str9 plus 2d6 against rear armour what tanks survive?? The monolith is somewhat challenging to kill but when you charge it It's like shooting 6 lascannons at it, and its not guaranteed but we all know that lascannons CAN kill monoliths. I use him almost exclusively in a dedicated anti tank role in my army but don't underestimate what else he can kill he's good at killing tactical marines and their like since they need 5's to hit him, you want to make sure he doesn't get stuck in combat for multiple turns since you're losing alot of potential that way. But for the army to work at its maximum you need him to be killing tanks

Bolt of change: seriously everybody wtf!?!?!?!? you want to use a weapon that is usually embedded in a 5 man horror unit wtf again!?!?!? its far too easy to cause 5 wounds to a unit like that and lose your bolt. here's my problem with it. it hits half the time in a horror unit, is a single shot weapon and is only str 8. Horrors are made to shoot infantry not tanks (unless shooting rear armour) putting a anti tank one shot gun in this unit makes no sense to me not when you have almost every unit in the codex that is much much better at killing tanks than this thing. In my opinion this is the biggest wast of points in the entire book since you can bring almost 2 daemonetts for one bolt and if you're putting it on a daemon prince there's more problems there.

The troops in this book rule they are so good at killing so many different things its rediculous there is no reason why 1/2 to 2/3 of your army shouldn't be troops.

How they enter play can be challenging to learn how to work it but it is one of the most powerful tools in the arsenal. I get to see how you deploy no matter what before I make any sort of decisions as to how I split or deploy my force, (sometimes deepstriking goes awry thats just the nature of dice you don't get to control how they work all the time) and if my opponent wants to hold his whole army in resereve thats okay too since they get their army in piecemeal which a savvy daemon player can pick apart (the daemon player still has units in reserve too that can be used to apply pressure in just the right way)

Just like every army in the game this codex has weakness too and sometimes you can defeat those things that hurt your army sometimes not like null zone. If a good marine player with a good list has it you are in for a rough game.

This army if used correctly can also beat some of the "best" tournament army lists out there. It can defeat nidzilla mech eldar, mech tau, and orks pretty handily but you have to be smart and know how to do it (which takes a bunch of losing for a little while to learn how)

And finally for all those curious here's what I ran at the chicago gt 1750 pts

Bloodthirster +1 str (absolutely necessary always always always. the +1 str that is)
15 bloodletters Icon
15 bloodletters Icon
16 daemonettes Instrument (had 5 points left seemed like the best place for it)
9 horrors Icon
9 horrors Icon Changeling
5 Bloodcrushers
Soulgrinder (pie plate upgrade) I decided this guy goes away in the future. At 1850 he turns into a keeper with +1str pavane and hit and run

total modes 71 all very close to your army where I've decided the weak spots are (thats alot to kill that quickly) I'm not saying it can't be done but it can be tough

at 1750 Im not sure what he becomes, he may just stay there as another answer to landraiders and monoliths since at that point level I believe you need 2 good answers.

to answer the op I think that daemons are a very firm yes in competitive play, any questions i'd be happy to answer them, and hopefully this answers any questions you had.

Sorry this was so rediculously long but I had to put my 2 cents in and once I started I just couldn't stop. Like I said these are my opinons and experience with this army so you are perfectly allowed to think i'm wrong but play me in a game and I'll happily try to prove my point on the table. I may win. I may not, but hopefully you'll learn a thing or two, or have a healty respect of what this book can do in the end.

Thanks.. as I started this, I am glad to hear it works and esp with bloodletters at the core with slaanesh demons.

I can almost make your list with what I bought... 4 boxes of letters and 1 box of demonettes... I have an old bloodthirster and really wanted a khorne theme to it and personnally hate the soulgrinder model so this is almost an all good news post. Thanks again.

My goal when it came out was to have an army of thirsters but I can bend to some horrors... I just didn't want to go down the well trod plaguebearer path.

I will add one question, do you spend the points on icons or just live with the scatter? Also wondering if it is worth the 10 points (i think) to make one letter have rending... just seems like a potential useful... 5 Str + 1d6 + 1d3 you might even glance a raider or a monolith and it certainly gives you one creature to light up a walker.

I spend the points on icons I don't think any army needs any more than 4 since they can be very points intensive. It's better to have the icons in a list and not use them than to not have them and wish you had them

what they are really good for is keeping your forces supported close together if you don't have icons you have to place your units coming in about 8 inches away from your other units to prevent a deep strike mishap and if they scatter away then you can have a unit arrive, and the following turn be unable to support what is already on the table and icons make sure that you get that unit right where you want it to give it a cover save or to have a counter charge the next turn or to contest an objective at the end of the game

sometimes you want to put a unit somewhere farther away than you have icons and then you just scatter and hope it goes well

I play somewhat agressively with the army and I occasionally have mishaps kill units (its why I lost a game at the gt 15 bloodletters died on the mishap and if i would have had them I could have won and probably easily)

deep striking is best viewed as an art in the daemon army. the more games you play the more used you will get to how far away to place a unit, where to put it so that after a possible scatter and run move they are in the right position for your plans on the following turn (never ever forget the run after the deep strike it helps get your units into place while keeping them at a safe place to deep strike)

never be afraid to take the risk and put a unit up in their grill and roll scatter sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't and when it works hooo booy can it be bad for your opponent. just don't forget to pray to the dark gods and sacrifice some goats so they bless your scatter dice

Saw a mixed khorne army take best general last weekend at a small 32 person local game store tourny. However the going consensus was that he got lucky for opponents and missions. Probably won't win again if he used the army a second time over. I didn't actually get a chance to see its comp though. So take this with a grain of salt.

Tortuga, what do you think about screamers? I've had a good amount of success with them. They're relatively cheap, and I like the psychological effect they have on my opponents who do bring tanks. Something that moves that fast, will eat landraiders, and can ignore your heaviest weapons really seems to give some of my opponents focus as to what to try and shoot at.

For that matter, why bloodcrushers over flamers? I'm using them as suicide squads, but dropping in and wiping out entire units, particularly ones that I can't afford to have shooting at me, is something not to be ignored.

oops forgot about rending

that all comes to a personal decision its ten points for a single guy to get rending and if you look at the odds of that guy doing something to say a dreadnaught, or a land raider it's not very likely I ran the math and rending on a bloodletter charging a dreadnaught with av 12 has a 13% chance of dealing with it (thats including immobilizing it since everybody else can beat on it after that and kill it once its immobilized) and if it charges you or on subsequent rounds of combat its a 5% chance of dealing with it. and thats just the vanilla av 12 dready's if its venerable its worse since you hit it on 4's instead of 3's and they can make you reroll it so the percentages go way down and an av 13 dready is almost as bad and whose going to bring av 12 dread when there's siege dreads or venerable ones or even soul grinders.

however it is dice you get to use to try and do something. I find i'd rather have my bloodthirster come in and kill a dreadnaught then try to have bloodletters get themselves unstuck. its not very likely for them to do so.

that being said if I had the points to do it I probably would. (its kind of like giving meltabombs to one guy) but In the list I posted there was absolutely no way I could afford the points to give it to somebody I don't think you should ever ever cut models in the army to add rending to a single guy I don't think it's worth droping models out of units to possibly affect something that one of your other units is in the army list to deal with

But If you think it's more important to have rending on a guy than to have one more guy in your units thats up to you, and go for it play your list however you feel comfortable, and how your play style works since we may not play the exact same way and what works for me may not work for you I just thought i'd give you the math if you were one of those odds guys

In my experience a unit of screamers is way more awesome since they all have melta bombs you can hide them better and they are much harder to kill I like units of 6 for 96 points and if your opponent has no tanks then they can tie up a devastator unit or they can go kill guardsmen or guardians or last turn contest objectives or you can hide them and prevent your opponent getting kill points

side note* rending won't work on a monolith

I actually love flamers since they can dish out piles and piles of damage if I use them I like to use a small unit of 3 for 105 points and they are DAMN scary. if i had room i'd add them in

the reasons they aren't in there is that they are a fragile unit (only 3 wounds) and a small amount of fire at them makes them go away. It's not a bad idea to look at them as a glass cannon. they show up (and if you can protect them for a turn) then they go nuke a unit and get killed in return. If you take bloodletters as a comparison they show up and can nuke a unit just as efficiently but afterwards they are more survivable. But I do love how terrified some people are by them and the damage they have the potential to do

The thing to remember when using the list i have is that you don't need any more infantry killing power than whats in there since daemonettes and bloodletters kill any and all infantry your opponent may have. and since flamers are infantry killers at their best (they can hurt tanks but thats not their optimal usage) they aren't the ideal unit to have in an army. Oh and they're an easy kill point

Bloodcrushers are invaluable in how the list operates. They aren't in there because of what they can do in close combat. Keep in mind that a unit of 5 IS a threat and needs to be dealt with and they can do very nasty things to armies (especially orks if you charge a ork unit you beat the ork unit by a lot. these guys end orks )

Their real value is in their survivability. They are a "blocking unit" since they are T5 with 2 wounds each, and have a 3+ armour and 5+invul and are on those gigantic bases they come with. That does a few things for your army.

1) they can soak an incredible amount of fire in the shooting phase and the close combat phase either because of their armour or invul or if they have a cover save. I've seen whole armies shoot at them only to kill just them or not do much to them, and there's no way to negate all of their saves so they'll always get a save of some kind

2)they provide a 4+ cover save to anything nasty right behind them, bloodletters are a million times more survivable with a 4+cover than a 5+ invulnerable (especially because of null zone since you don't reroll cover saves)

3) they block charges. if you have these guys land in front of another unit and then run you spead them out in a line straight across a unit you don't want charged, and since their bases are large your opponent has to shoot a bunch dead (can be a tough proposition) to punch a hole he can charge through

Hey Tortuga, how did you do at the Chicago GT with the list you posted above?

edit: Nevermind, I ended up finding the answer to the question in your first post. Answer: 5th. Good job

I'm working on an all khorne daemon army for Adepticon, so reading this with some interest.

Redbeard - I did well with my all Khorne daemons at the Vegas GT without facing a single Marine player. I think with the new Marine codex out there will be even more marine players and you should do quite well against them.

demons really? who would spend that much money just to lose every game?

Tortuga's absolutely right. I was the 10th place list (was essentially 1 armor save away from getting 2nd, as that armor save cost me an icon that I needed to bring a unit down in exactly the right position, as opposed to scattering on top of a unit and beginning a cascade of Epic Fail that netted me a massacre loss).

Daemons need a different kind of player. You really have to play the statistics game with them, because they're so random. Yes, you can have a cascading series of Epic Fail that costs you the game...but what army can't?

The thing to remember about Daemons is that every worthwhile unit (I won't discuss the uselessness that are Furies or Beasts of Nurgle) has something that it does exceptionally, ridiculously well. Khorne? kill anything (except Dreads) you touch in HTH. Nurgle? Don't die. Tzeentch? Shootiness beyond belief. Slaanesh? Surprisingly fast and strikes first before anything.

The counterpart to this is that every unit has somethat it totally sucks at. Khorne? Anything 12"+ away is safe. Nurgle? Low hitting power in most situations. Tzeentch? Worse than Tau in HTH. Slaanesh? Dies if you sneeze at them.

Are they a tier 1 list (one of the lists that everybody has to consider for competitive play)? No. But not because they're not competitive. It's because of their randomness, which precludes the ability for an opponent to predict reliably what a Daemon army is going to look like.

Both Tortuga and I had very different lists. And we both did reasonably well. Somnicide did well at Vegas with a list that's different than ours.

The greatest strength of the Daemon list isn't its units. Its in its randomness. Because you don't choose what force is primary and which is secondary until the Daemon player's first turn, a non-Daemon player is forced to prepare for nearly everything. That's why I believe that mono-God lists are relatively quicker. Sure a khornate list will butcher everything in HTH...but its got to get there.

Centurian99 wrote:Daemons need a different kind of player. You really have to play the statistics game with them, because they're so random. Yes, you can have a cascading series of Epic Fail that costs you the game...but what army can't?

Rolling bad dice is one thing.

If you named me an army that always deep striked in and scattered without any way to control it that wasn't a can of suck, I'd listen.

Thing is, scattering 2D6 is unreliable.

Drop pods are 'safe' because they can be placed right next to the enemy, and even in a full scatter...still rapid fire you as if nothing happened.

IG are 'safe' because they cost little in the way of points, and can have a ton of stuff on the board even with alot of deep strikers.

What units in a demon army are 'suicide squads'? None? Unlike IG.

Marines cost too much, so they get a free pass.

Centurian99 wrote:The thing to remember about Daemons is that every worthwhile unit (I won't discuss the uselessness that are Furies or Beasts of Nurgle) has something that it does exceptionally, ridiculously well. Khorne? kill anything (except Dreads) you touch in HTH. Nurgle? Don't die. Tzeentch? Shootiness beyond belief. Slaanesh? Surprisingly fast and strikes first before anything.

Beasts of Nurgle are a great place to stick epidemius, and really aren't that bad. Sadly, for 5 points more...Bloodcrushers are superior in just about every way.

Centurian99 wrote:The counterpart to this is that every unit has somethat it totally sucks at. Khorne? Anything 12"+ away is safe. Nurgle? Low hitting power in most situations. Tzeentch? Worse than Tau in HTH. Slaanesh? Dies if you sneeze at them.

Most of the book is like that (totally sucks at anything besides HTH).

Centurian99 wrote:Are they a tier 1 list (one of the lists that everybody has to consider for competitive play)? No. But not because they're not competitive. It's because of their randomness, which precludes the ability for an opponent to predict reliably what a Daemon army is going to look like.

Nah, it's because of the randomness that they aren't competitive.

Give space marine players a 3+ to decide which half of their drop pods come in (or DW), and have them have to stay inside their drop pods the turn they drop.

And blow up if they land on the enemy.

Yeah, watch that army not get played--because it isn't competitive in any serious way.

Centurian99 wrote:The greatest strength of the Daemon list isn't its units. Its in its randomness. Because you don't choose what force is primary and which is secondary until the Daemon player's first turn, a non-Daemon player is forced to prepare for nearly everything. That's why I believe that mono-God lists are relatively quicker. Sure a khornate list will butcher everything in HTH...but its got to get there.

You can negate that by running identical 'halves' of your list.

However, if you think being random is a strength, I must say I laugh at that.

I might get my armored units to support me, I might get my infantry...that's not a 'good' random.

That's a very very bad random, and it makes the list not work well unless you decide to run as close to 'equal halves' as you possible can, to mitigate that.

having identical halves is more of a hinderence than anything.

the daemon army is a very difficult to play finesse army, and having the choice to decide how to split your army in half and where to drop units AFTER your opponent has at the very least deployed is a very distinct tactical advantage. However it takes some actual skill to build a list correctly and use said list against a wide range of opponents correctly. just building a 925 point list and copying it doesn't win you games in the least since you don't have tools you may need in different games against different opponents. Obviously not everybody can look at it objectively and understand the nuances built into the codex.

As to the scatter on the deep strike you don't just automatically die if you mishap. you only die 1/3 of the time, 1/3 your opponent places you in which case they probably won't get a kill point out of that unit or it will be capturing/contesting an objective at the end of the game both decent options, and 1/3 of the time it goes back to reserves so in the case of a mishap it doesn't ruin you contrary to belief. In the case that you do lose a unit the army can still win without a unit (we've all had games where one of your squads dies to random chance like bad armor saves or the like)

If you are a competent player you can place your units in places where it severely severely mitigates the chance of a deep strike mishap occurring and seeing as how you get a run move after you deep strike in, it almost always puts units in the places they need to be, (just like any other army in the game you don't always get what you want especially when playing with random number generators) assuming of course you are a competent general and don't place your units right next to theirs,
which is why icons in your army give you the stability that you need in certain situations, especially when you want to be really close to your units so you can support them or don't want them to scatter. Just because it requires a little forethought on where to place units for maximum threat while keeping them safe doesn't make them bad. After all in battle the more options you have the harder it is for your opponent to counter or react to your threats. (the more options the easier it is to make the wrong ones too)

Obviously this army isn't for everyone since it doesn't play like any other army out there with different tactics and lines of thinking, and to learn how to play with it you need to lose for a little while, so you can't just look at the book and decide that it's a bad army, because you lose with it. That would be very ignorant especially if you can look at the facts in a logical and even minded manner. Don't forget not everybody plays exactly the same way, some people are better with certain armies than others, perhaps it's not your strong suit stelek? Don't feel bad if you can't play the army well, all you have to do is ask and I can give you some pointers if you want.

So like anybody else I suggest to you stelek that you should maybe watch a few games with somebody playing daemons well and knows how to play the army correctly. They can show you how the book actually works. You'll probably learn a few things about the army, and in the process it might just correct some of your thoughts on how the army works.

Oh boy.

1) Identical halves is a hindrance, yet it negates the armies biggest drawback.

2) So if you place a bloodcrusher 8" from the enemy (pretty safe) and scatter back 12", you are in good shape with your run.

3) The demon army is not a finesse army in any way. It's a brute force CC army all the way. Shooting options? Mobility options? Which ones do they have? Right, two to nil.

4) A good army played by a competent player (your words, not mine) against a demon army played by a competent player should net a win for the non-demon player. It should not take the stars aligning to make an army good.

5) As far as skill to build a list correctly, I haven't seen any list I'd run and call a good list. Not in person, not on the internet. Just utter crap lists.

6) Telling everyone how awesome it is to drop after your opponent deployed is obvious. Now tell them how awesome it is to be facing twice your force and the very real possibility that you won't get reinforcements on your next turn?

7) Mishap is better than before, yet...in most scenarios, people don't laugh off having their guys stuck in a corner or back in reserve. For someone talking about competency, that's not a good sign.

8) As far as 'placing units' goes, are you serious? You're a threat, but you are safe. How exactly do icons work the turn you drop? Combined with the ever-awesome drop of half your army, then whatever else you get in with your reserve rolls (which you can't manipulate in ANY way)? Demons cannot have 'alot' of options on the table to start with. You get exactly half, +1 if you are odd numbered in your slot choices/HQ IC with units or not choices. That usually means 6 or less units. Gee, kill the fast ones, then the slow ones, then the fast ones that drop in, then the slow ones. Yes, it's "difficult" to figure that part out.

9) I playtested the Codex for a year. So I didn't just pick it up. I haven't seen anyone run it competently. Seen alot of 'chaaaaarrrge' mindlessly at the enemy and hope I win in CC cause that's all I know how to do. So, you don't mind if I turn down your offer, do you?

I'm glad I've almost got the Daemon guide done. Tired of listening to everyone tell me how great their builds are, with bloodletters and seekers and .

Oh look, Stelek is complaining about daemons again. Yawn. We know, daemons suck. You have already said that you have a personal grudge with them, how about just not ever talking about them again. It would make the internets a much better place.

1. It is a hindrance because then you are playing against a fully built army with only half an army twice over. Some redundancy is good, total redundancy isn't (quite similar to talking with you about daemons.)

2-9. You think Beasts of Nurgle are good. You have absolutely no credibility after this statement.

Woot, Somnicide voted me off the Demon island!

Who has no credibility? You and your massive influx of useful tips and ideas?

Right. The truth hurts, demons suck. Especially with the advice repeatedly being given out.

Hurr bloodletters are gud!

edit: sigh. never mind.

1) splitting in half is not a hinderance. just because you roll a 3 and don't get the half you want doesn't doesn't ruin your game plan you have to figure out how exactly to work with what you have. You need differant units for different jobs and to just take a 925 point list and copy it doesn't build you a good list that wins games

2) you can't just take the worst case scanario and say that that instance makes something bad you have to logically look at all of the options ( otherwise I can say you shoot with sternguard and roll not a single 3+ so therefore they are terrible) so if you use icons to bring in bloodcrushers and run and end up 1 inch away you are in good shape or take a scatter dice for example. now much depends on which way the arrow is pointing so look at the odds a scatter dice hits 1/3 of the time. and an average roll of 2d6 is 7 with an average run of 3.5 now theres no way you put them 8 inches away from an enemy unit (that would be a mistake for a unit like bloodcrushers which your extensive playtesting would tell you) since on a bad scatter they are out of the game. What you would do is find a place at the enemy army that you can put them down in such a way that they are safe from the table edge and can only scatter into one enemy unit if they go that one direction. an place them about 5 inches or so maybe a little further if you don't like being that close (thats what I was talking about when I said you have to place them correctly) so on a scatter 1/3 you hit and any direction but one is okay to scatter in and since you only have a problem if you scatter that one direction and you only have a problem if you scatter 5+ inches ( which is likely but not so likely to make it automatic since dice have 1's and 2's on them) taking all this into account the odds of a bad scatter are seriously limited (not saying it doesn't happen) but thats why it takes a little while to learn this army as deepstriking on the initial move in can be tricky to learn how to do. If you scatter 12 directly away that puts your initial model 17 inches away on the center point from the centerpoint to the edge of his base it's 1.5 inches and the nd model you put down will put you 3 inches closer to the enemy. so before a run move you are 12.5 inches away and a run move of 1+ puts you into assault range with pretty much anything you want to (if marines want to shoot you they have to stay there they move backwards they don't get to shoot, even better with devestators) lets even look at if you start 8 inches away and scatter 12 directly back that puts you 20 inches away from an enemy. from centerpoint to edge of base is 1.5 inches and the other bloodcrusher placed directly towards the enemy puts you unit 15.5 inches away before running, and an average run move of 3.5 puts you How far away class? thats right within 12 for assault range

*on a side not that's why pavane is a good option as you can place units even more safely and pavane them closer and your unit runs and you get a turn 2 charge

3) Thats's why it's finesse. a finesse army doesn't have lots of options all across the board in terms of shooting etc... finesse refers to an army that you need to exhibit a play style, or use your units in such a way that you prevent yourself from making the wrong choices and causing yourself to lose the game not having moving and shooting options

but if you want shooting options then there are Keepers, Lord of Change, Great unclean ones.pink horrors, flamers, daemon princes, soulgrinders, heralds of tzeentch, slaneesh, nurgle, the bluescribes, fateweaver.

and if you want mobility the whole army depstrikes that sounds like pretty damn good mobility to me, or since i know you won't like that there are fateweaver the keeper, bloodthirster, lord of change, bluescribes any herald on a or slaneesh mount or disc, fiends of slaanesh, flamers of tzeentch, daemonettes ( I would consider deepstrikeing where you want and having fleet to be highly manueverable), flesh hounds seekers, screamers, furies (i do think furies suck something hard though but they are mobile), daemon princes, and soul grinders

hmm seems like it can be aweful mobile if you want and if you want shooty ask centurion99 how his pretty much all shooting daemon army did at the chicago gt I hear he did pretty well

4) a good army played by a competent player against a demon army played by a competent player should not net a win for the non-demon player automatically it will be a game and the winner is decided by who plays better or makes better choices just like any other time two competant players with good armies play. you saying that is not fact in any way it's an OPINION you have.

and in the future i would like the courtesy of you using quotes or direct quotations when you claim to be using my words since you using the phrase (your words, not mine) in conjunction with what you type appears to give me a position I did not take and it appears to support what you say. You are misrepresenting what I said, and that leads to confusion and problems.

5) The list I've built and posted earlier would be good, as would the list centurion99 played at the gt, since both of us performed very well with it, and you saying it's a crap list is opinion if you have thoughts on why you think it's bad then please share them, just saying they're bad doesn't make them bad, since not everybody plays the same way you do one persons list that is good and works well, you may never get to work right and vice versa. but thats okay

6)you have a point here it is awesome to drop after your opponent deployed and you may not get reserves the next turn. However if they have their whole army on the table, you get to pick where your units are going to try and go, which you can use terrain to your advantage, and you don't place your army in front of every gun they have (that would be suicide and silly) what you do is place your units in places where they can't bring all their guns to bear, or if they shoot you with some stuff you get a cover save.

If they deploy their whole army its all on the daemon player to make the correct choices here, since you get to see what guns they have and where they are you can split your army accordingly (remember identical halves are bad) and use the correct tools to get the job done. they don't have lots of guns, then go for lots and lots of guys since they can't kill em all, they have lots of shooting, go for your tougher more resiliant units and put them on flanks or use terrain to give your stuff cover saves. what you do all depends on how they have deployed and what they brought since a well built list can crack almost any problem your opponent gives you.

And if you need/hope to get reinforcements they you have some problems, since dice are fickle things you may or may not get what you want, you need to adjust your thinking when playing this codex. You have to make do with what you have at the start of the game, and try to do what you can with what you have ( no real stretch here since everybody does that) the trick is not relying on the reserves to help you. because if you absolutely need a unit to come in he definetely won't (unless it's turn 5 then everything comes in)
Also if you look at it that way when your reserves do come in (and based on the odds you should get some stuff on turn 2) it's an extra benefit to you since now you have this *extra* unit to do nasty stuff to your opponent with, and you could have been using the first half of your army to make him manuever into a bad position for your reserves to take advantage of it. (in a bunch of cases I don't like anything to come in on turn 2 having units in reserve to counter what my opponent may try to do is a powerful weapon also.

also stelek you can't tell people that there's a very real possibility that you won't get reinforcements on your next turn since on turn 2 its a 4+ to get units in as long as there are 2 units in reserve, based on the odds you will get at least one. and daemon armies have more that 4 units in their lists, at minimum i would guess people have about 7 to 8 units in their army which translates to 3 or 4 reserve rolls. This is once again a worst case scenario (depending) and to look at it logically you have to take the opposite into account and say there is an equal chance of getting every unit to show up on turn 2

7) on a mishap you only die 1/3 of the time. If your opponent places you in a corner that is a kill point they won't be able to get, and between moving and running the unit will be able to either contest an objective or capture one by the end of the game (we'll assume slowest unit move 6 assault 6 ) if you move 6" and run you will travel an average of 9 inches a turn which translates to a guaranteed 45 inches of movement in 5 turns, if the game goes on longer there is possibility of more movement there, I find it incredibly hard to belive that with that much movement a unit is out of the entire game. If they go back in reserve thats even better, since if they mishap that still doesn't leave them dead or in a "corner" and you still have full control of your unit (its almost like you didn't make that reserve roll that turn) and I am perfectly okay with having my unit in a corner (it's not optimal but you can work with it since everything in a game can't possibly go your way) or in reserve, it does suck when they die though, which if, you have placed your units correctly the chance of that happening are actually quite low

8)I never said you're a threat, but you're safe. You're probably misconstrueing what I'm saying. You drop in so that you land safely, but not so far away that your stuff can't threaten your opponents units on the following turn. And if your army is built well your opponent can be dealing with 4+ units of 15 models or more that you get one turn to try and kill, almost all armies are hard pressed to deal with 60 models 8 inches away, keeping in mind you don't get to fire with every unit you've deployed (the daemon's opponent) at maximum effectiveness. Since some will be out of range, some will be firing outside of rapidfire, and some will be granting cover saves to what they're shooting at. As far as shooting fast stuff then slow stuff that's not playing against daemons that's playing 40k in general you do that against any army you play (assuming you are a shooty based army that is the others are a different story)

9) for playtesting the codex for a year you sure don't like the most effective units in the book, nurgle isn't effective at killing the enemy, and daemon princes are point sinks, and if you bring multiple soul grinders (that may work for your play style definately not mine) they can die way too easily

*as far as playtesting the codex for over a year, since the book only came out in may of this year and that was 5 months ago I'm going to have to say even with accurate internet rumors (some of which weren't true when the book came out) you couldn't have been playing it for more than 6 months total. And since you refuse to go to tournaments I don't see how you can see anybody play it competently, since your ideas about it are not even minded and unbiased, and I'm sure you don't have anybody doing well with it in your local store

I would urge everybody to take his daemon guide with a gigantic grain of salt, since the ideas stelek has about the book in my opinion are very incorrect and this army can be competitive and has proven so by doing well in the recent big events. If people would like me to write up a daemon guide I'd be more than happy to. As long as there is an interest in such a thing, if only to correct misconceptions people online may have with the codex

lol beasts of nurgle, i'm going to start using that as an insult.


Well Bob what do you know, you like Beasts of Nurgle in 40k

In all honesty they are pretty aweful

@ Tortuga - that would be awesome. I started one here in the articles section, feel free to either add to this one or do your own. I kinda got sick of all the crappy stuff about daemons that was out there and figured I would write my own crappy stuff ;-)

I just haven't had time to work on it lately.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Chaos_Daemons_Overview_and_Tactica

Beasts are right at home in an Epidemius list!

So what I get from all that is this:

Nerfed one-dimensional armies are good, and winning with them should make your epeen go up.

There's someone on Dakka you should put on your friends list, he likes boring mono lists too.

Strange, I am getting that it is a fun list with lots of different options and that you are a [edited for flaming]. Guess it all depends on how you read it.

So what I get from all that is this:

Nerfed one-dimensional armies are good, and winning with them should make your epeen go up.

There's someone on Dakka you should put on your friends list, he likes boring mono lists too.

stelek, im sure theres better ways of getting friends than this
after all, didnt you make lists that contain pretty much all landraiders and one with all dreads?

Ah but those Codices have OPTIONS, jd.

You can make more than 'hurr kill in CC' armies with those books.

Demons? Please. Show me the 'options'.

Kill slow? Nurgle.
Kill fast? Khorne.
Kill in between slow and fast? Slaanesh.
Force cover saves? Tzeentch.

Makes me giggle.

stelek, all codices have otions, would be a crap game if you had to take a pre written list

open the daemons dex to pages 78 - 87 and you will see alot of options.

just because you cant make a list that includes a few units hidden in AV14 raiders doesent mean they dont have options.

@Stelek

As oppose to Tyrannids (hurr smash), Necrons (hurr shoot), tau (hurr shoot), or guard (hurr shoot). Those armies have the same number of options that demons have but you don't seem to hate on them as much. What does have you all in a bunch about demons stelek?

I despise Necrons equally.

Tau have lots of army lists available, and they don't all work the same.

Tyranids and Guard, same thing.

Demons? CC, foot. That's the book.

Necrons? Shooty, foot. That's the book.

There's nothing subtle or imaginative inside either, and if you still don't get it I don't know what to tell you.

But they are still all based around shooting correct? I mean all kroot are good for are speed bumps IMO so tau and guard armies are still one dimensional. They don't fight well in combat at all. they have to stay away from their opponent and shoot them to death. Sounds oddly like demons needing to get into cc.

Hmm....Unless you haven't noticed the only thing that is the same in all demon army is that yes it does have to get into combat, no less than tau and guard need time and space to shoot.

There are a ton of different lists and options to accomplish you style of play with demons. Just like there are a ton of ways to shoot your opponent to death with tau and guard.

But I do understand stelek that for some reason you hate Demons. And that's your opinion but don't try and sour anyone who wants to play the list. Your style is not the only style nor is it the only style that wins.

You would be incorrect in your assumptions about Tau.

You are also oversimplifying to prove your point, which doesn't really prove anything other than you can oversimply.

The only thing that's the same in a demon army (not sure what a non-all demon army looks like) is without the ability to get into close combat, it's an autoloser of a army.

Tau and Guard don't get time to shoot against 5th edition armies, who assault on turn 2--including Demons. They also can only get space in a quarters mission, so that's out. Yet guard and tau both engage in CC successfully, and have multiple ways to run their army.

Demons do not, and while you can say there are tons of different lists and options--the reality is, there isn't. You saying so and admonishing me to stop putting demons down doesn't change this.

Drop half your army on the table, get shot up. Whenever the rest of your army comes in, if you haven't wiped 2x your points with CC (where you cannot move your guys around well, you scatter randomly, and you cannot consolidate into CC after a win) you lose?

Gee, sign me up for that bit of fun.

I'm not here to sour people on playing the list.

I am not going to let anyone who thinks Demons are competitive (it's the generals, not the list) convince others that they are.

A fun army, sure. Competitive? Against 5th edition lists? Since when, never? Yes, never. I don't care how badly you can whup on 4th edition battleforce lists.

You can't hope to beat a 5th edition list with a fantasy army, no matter how good you think it is--you just don't get a reliable win out of the army against all comers and that means it isn't competitive.

I bought and assembled a 2k daemon army and played it pretty hard at the end of 4th. I won the majority of my games, the only army I had problems with was mech. I dropped it after I realized that I basically auto-lose against Imperial armies with Inquisitors or Dreadnoughts. Now, I can understand if you, as a daemons player, ignore the Inquisitor (even though DH anti-deep strike has become must-have in Imperial lists) because it's cheesy or you never encounter them, or something, but Dreadnoughts? There's about four units in the Caemons dex that can take on a dread in hand to hand, and they all cost 200+ points and can be shot off the board the turn they land. Bloodcrushers die so hard to Dreadnoughts, especially the Ironclad, that the only thing I really use my Daemons for now is cutting bits up to decorate my Marines.

I'm not drinking Haterade, I own probably $750 worth of Daemons, I've played them pretty hard, I had a lot of fun with them, and all I need to kill countless swathes of them is an Inquisitor Lord and three Ironclads.

once again stelek refer to the above posts you claiming that they are bad and are aweful and have no options and that they aren't competitive are all perfectly refuted by myself in the above posts so if you're confused please go back and reread them. I notice you didn't in any way shape or form refute anything I've posted up above

There is a shooty version of a daemon army which does well (refer to centurion99 he ran it at chicago gt) They obviously are competitive due to the showing they've had at the major tourney's recently.

and I see you oversimplify plenty of times to try and make your point you have no basis for telling someone not to do that.

Hulksmash is right you do try to sour people on the army, you don't have one good or constructive thing to say about it, and if you think it's awful and shouldn't be played, why do you try to give people advice on their builds, especially if you don't think it can win? You should probably leave those threads alone for people who do think they can (and have proven that they can) win. alright we get it you don't like them and you hate them and you don't think they should be played, you keep forgetting thats YOUR play style and your OPINION. Now if you don't mind I think I'm going to be actually helpful to people here as opposed to others.

sour clams I do agree that dreadnaughts in large numbers can be a problem, but there are lots of answers in the book for those sorts of things, and I don't think that they can all be shot off the table.

We have all the greater daemons, soulgrinder, screamers, models with rending (not ideal at all) and their rear armour is 10 so they can be immobilized from behind with shooting, and lots of people love units with bolt of change.

I actually believe that the typical daemon list thats been constructed well can handle a fair amount of dreaddys, its all on how you play the game out (isn't that always the case)

I'm not saying its easy to smash them just that there are answers.

also you may not run into them so it isn't always a problem.

more importantly I believe that there is no army that can beat all other armies out there, everybody has their bad matchups and their good ones. So yes there are ways to neutralize daemons, that doesn't make them bad. Otherwise every army is bad because I can build a list to defeat any other list out there badly. It just makes daemons just like everyone else

@Tortuga: You are unlikely to change Stelek's opinion. He posts hundreds of times a week, and has never admitted error in any post.

@Sourclams, why do you think a daemon prince (80 points, slightly less than 200) won't, on average, destroy an Ironclad Dreadnaught in close combat? Or let's say a pair of Daemon Princes, just to use equal points from both sides? Also, do you think the Daemon codex lacks the AP 1 shooting to put down a dread pre-CC? We've got railgun-equivalents, dreads move as infantry!

As for Inquisitor Lords, Daemon players usually display some low kunnin to handle such devastating foes. For example, we read the deployment zone rules and the objective placement rules. Diabolical.

I don't think you are drinking Hatorade. I'm not getting the "random rage" vibe from you at all. Rather, I think you don't play often, and give too much credence to factoids you read online. I can see why you've abandoned the Daemon Codex. Good luck with your marines.

My favorite bit is how DH anti-deep strike is "must have" in Imperial Lists. Vintage.

at 1st i was arguing that daemons would win with ease, untill i played using them, its easy to say something, but weather it works or not, thats another matter.
scatter plays a massive part in the decision of win or lose.
out of 5 games its 2 wins and 3 draws.

its all a case of having a great plan, and another 2-3 plans once the 1st one crumbles.

they struggle against heavy armour (LR's and mono's)
sure, they have units that can take them out, but, most opponents know which units, and will target them early on.

im between the lines here, they look great and are fun to play, but if i was going into a serious tourney i would take my orks, daemons are too un-predictable and un-reliable to make use of a bttle plan as a small thing like a single unit scattering can ruin it.

Edi: my usual bad spelling.

I hear what you're saying Tortuga, and believe me I wish that I had grounds to believe otherwise beyond what I posted. But Bolt of Change, especially on BS3 models like what Horrorspam armies are going to be packing, is definitely not the way to take down an Ironclad. You're going to waste so many shots plinking one dread that you'll get shot to death by the rest of the army.

Soulgrinders die to Dreadnoughts. WS3/I3 is a big, big deal when you're fighting a guy that can rip you open like a tin can.

Daemon Princes have a pretty reliable chance, but with a 5+ Invul unless you're spending a lot of points on Mark of Tzeentch *and* Iron Hide means they get shot off the board quite easily.

Praying for a Rend is a freakin' wash when you realize that he can bog down all your good units, like crushers, while all your crap units, like 'letters, get shot off the board.

That leaves rear armor (yeah, that's really not very easy for a deep striking army to achieve off the bat), and greater daemons ... that all cost 200+ points and still max out at T6 (making them easy to shoot off the board).

For those going 'YEAH buT WHO ALWAYS TAEKS 3 IRONCLADS OMGOMG PHAIL', well, a lot of people do. Especially since Ironclads are 1. cheap, 2. a cool model idea, and 3. synergize with Vulkan really, really well.

Yes, they're a Marine unit, but Marine players are absolutely everywhere, and although Daemons can do very well against a lot of lists that weren't expecting them, if you run into the guy who spent five seconds thinking 'kay, what if I fight daemons', then you're already at a severe disadvantage.

It is entirely possible to go with 2 Bloodthirsters and 0-1 Soul Grinders in the heavy slots to combat Dreads and heavy Mech. I like Soul Grinders vs. most vehicles except dreads and that is where the Bloodthirsters come in.


I'm going to try this 1750pt army out the next few times I play.

HQ - Bloodthirter, str, blessing
HQ - Bloodthirster, blessing
EL - 6 Bloodcrushers
TR - 10 Bloodletters
TR - 10 Bloodletters
TR - 10 Bloodletters
TR - 10 Pink Horrors
TR - 10 Pink Horrors
HV - Soul Grinder, phlegm

I shouldn't have to worry about Dreads as much with this list. If the 2nd Thirster really needs his +1 str or if my Horrors really need a changling and/or bolt of change I can always drop the pink horrors down to 9 models or so.

40kenthusiast wrote:
@Sourclams, why do you think a daemon prince (80 points, slightly less than 200) won't, on average, destroy an Ironclad Dreadnaught in close combat? Or let's say a pair of Daemon Princes, just to use equal points from both sides? Also, do you think the Daemon codex lacks the AP 1 shooting to put down a dread pre-CC? We've got railgun-equivalents, dreads move as infantry!
........
My favorite bit is how DH anti-deep strike is "must have" in Imperial Lists. Vintage.

First off guy, I love your batreps. I also love that you do well with your Khornate death squads. I'm serious here. I think you're a great player without having met you.

But I actually play against daemon armies occasionally, and both Bolt of Change and Tongue do not bother me much or at all. Now that dreads come with smoke by default, 3 Soulgrinders will kill an average of 0 Ironclads on the turn they drop in. And if you don't drop those first, then I can be into whatever *did* drop first in melee and bog the whole thing down. A Soulgrinder is a powerful but unsubtle unit and precision armor destruction isn't in its strong suits. Bolt of Change? Same deal, only even less scary than Tongue.

In my turn I can shoot your grinders off the board or just ignore them while I kill the bloodthirster or GUO or whatever that actually *can* hurt my Ironclads. The point investment for 3 'clads is so low that I can take a lot of other stuff that's potent at range. And having an Inquisitor on hand for 38 points means that you're dropping far away, or dying horribly on the fall. This isn't just internet troll-tactics, it's the stuff I've used in games against daemons.

Again, I wish this wasn't true, I'd love to keep the army viable, but it's just so easy for me to counter the army that I've played. Now I'm sure that, as good a player as you are, you'd throw some loops in there to keep me guessing, but that doesn't necessarily make Daemons a competitve army, it just means that you'd be really really scary if you were actually playing a competitive army.

I actually agree with you on the bolt of change issue I don't believe they are very good, (however dropping in behind a dreadnaught and shooting it in the rear with bolt can do something useful) and I'm not a big fan of the soulgrinder. Rending is also not the best option at all (although some people seem to like it) I'm of the opinion that the Greater Daemons are the best answer to it.

A bloodthirster can tear a soulgrinder apart with ease, and if it doesn't actually kill the seige dreadnaught it acts as a springboard for getting the other ones on following turns.

Daemon princes can do a pretty handy job against them too.

I fully believe multiple seige dreadnaughts are quite possible to kill with a daemon army, it's just about using the right tools and building the right list.

It's just about how you use the tools you bring.

Tortuga, I don't see any need to refute what you've said, you didn't make any claims that bear up to the light of day.

40kenthusiast: Tsk tsk. I was wrong just the other day. I'm still waiting for you to explain how 6x5 troops in your demon army is 'win'. I note none of them are plaguebearers either.

Lose in KP and in objective taking missions, yet somehow you don't. So the secret to bringing an army with such crappy troops and winning is what, exactly?

@Clams:

Thanks for the compliments. I try pretty hard to play right, mostly I feel embarassed when I lose due to error, and that drives me to be very careful.

On Dreads:
I don't get how the Dreads are getting to the Daemons in one turn. I also don't get how they are smoking. If I go first, the dreads aren't smoking, and I'm going to try not to land within 12" of ironclad dreadnaughts with anything I mind them charging. If they go first, and it isn't Dawn of War, they can move + run to be in threat range of most everywhere, but if they are threating everywhere they are spreading out a bit, and you can surround one and menace it.

I can buy dreads as more deadly vs. Daemons than otherwise, but don't you think that that's sort of made up for by the difficulty that the rest of the dex has doing anything to them? Assault squads, tac squads, bikers, etc. are just going to get chopped. If you've got a runaway dread it can be tough (nearly lost me game #2 in my last tournament), but other than dreads the rest of the Marine dex has real trouble with Daemons. The 6 Dread guy has enough trouble with Tau/Orks/CSM that you can hope not to encounter him early on.

On Inquisitors:
In Dawn of War the 38 point guys aren't on the board, or are just barely on the board if the enemy got first turn.
In Pitched Battle you try and keep the objectives towards the middle, or turn the flank that they don't have their umbrella on. If they counter by placing their half of the objectives closer to their side you try and win the roll and take the side with the objectives.
Spearhead annihilation is the only combination that really makes inquisitors hurt, and even then you've got a shot as long as they've got rhinos/drop pods to pop. Typically my version of Daemons goes for the massacre in annilhilation anyway, them having a dev squad shoot each of your grinder/crusher units as they land (if their 4d6 roll doesn't stink) isn't all that bad.

@Stelek:

You hide the squads in reserve. They live in the second wave, and you get 3 on round 2, 2 on round 3 and 1 on round 4 (on average). The theory is that by the time the last troops are falling you've killed the long range shooting that might threaten them. It works pretty well for me. If you roll in the wrong half of the army you drop them far away and go to ground, most lists don't have enough long range anti-infantry fire to really slaughter.

So the plan is hope you don't face an army that can pick your heavies apart, and have enough left over to take your troops.

I note the first wave coming in second shutters most Demon armies.

I still want to play where you play, land of not enough shooting to kill a squad of marines and a squad of sisters in a single turn...must be nice.

So I have a couple really good finishes in tournies with my daemons at this point and have changed some of my opinions on daemons.

First off, they are not a top tourny list, but can beat top tourny lists with a little luck.

The inherent problem with the list is that you need luck to win. Especially something like a 5 game GT. They do a great job of forcing a draw but against a lot of armies it's really difficult to massacre.

Anyway, some suggestions for you:

You have to have a squad of plague bearers. They are jsut too damn resilient not to take, and controlling both sides of the field is REALLY important with daemons. Tying up a unit with plague bearers is a great way to buy time for heavy hitters to summon in and makes a great anvil to a hammer. They are also a great screen unit as any unit that summons in stands around for a turn. This PB unit should have an icon. I usually run this squad fairly big.

Greater daemons. I wasn;t a big fan at first, but after having som much success with nurgle deamon princes I started looking int a Great unclean one. He is a beast. I run him with puke. He is a great fire magnet or tar pit. He also destroys high toughness creatures, and if you are playing tournies you will run into big nids all the time.

blood thirster. He's fragile, but iwth the unholy might he's great at tank hunting. He also draws a lot of fire but usually weathers one turn, kills something and dies. He's a kill one unit missile usually. Great at popping a tank, character or elite unit.

lord of change is unusable. keeper of secrets in good, but I already have guys that kill infantry. he doesn;t really add much to my lists although pravene is nice.

Troops: One unit of plague bearers with an icon is your anchor. They don;t do much more that tar pit and summon off of unless you have epidemius. The plus side is that you can deepstrike them into cover and not care. Then you can go to ground, and they basically are impervious to incoming fire. As you can often place tokens drop on in the woods and thin unit on top of them. Keep them central. Or use them to guard a token deeps in you zone and send everything else forward.

As for other troops: They all die. But you have to take them to win. My of the game you are trying to keep them in hth so they don;t die to fire power. Because of that I tend to like blood letters. Tehy work well as a hammer unit, but they are slow. I'm luke warm on horrors, although I've had luck using them as a bog unit. People just never expect to be charged by them. Slaanesh hit hard with some luck, and move the fastest but I just can;t seem to keep them alive.

Elites: Flamers are great but they will end up in hth. If you pull of the tactic of icon and flame, more power too you, but I find they injure or kill a unit then meet and untimely death. I personally liket blood crushers the best but beast of nurgle are really quite good with epidemius. As for Slaanesh, take the fast attack gusy instead.

Fast attack: I honestly thought these guys would be the most important part of the list when I first really the book. Now I'm not sure. Seekers hit hard and are fast. Flesh hounds are tougher and move through cover is really a useful skill.

Heavies: Deamon princes have a place in this book. I tend to think 60 points is too expensive for flying, but I see peopel tote them and can envision a fast hard hitting list that kills faster than mine.

In my epidemius list I like iron hide, MON, flies and the shooting power with 3 AP 3 shots. Good way to get kills up quick. Noxious touch is nice if you can find the points too. I dont; like to spend much than that on them.

Soul grinders are pretty awesome. I took the S10 choice for awhile but shooting tanks to death in 5th sucks. Especially at BS 3. I find phlem is better an toss them into the fray. They charge further than people think becasue they have fleet. They are also good tar pits for units with no powerfists.

Anyway, I think there are some important nuances to a daemon list. For one having a lot of different types of units lets you exploit situational combats. Also, the list is inherently fragile because it's slow, so I find you are basically forced to invest in tough units and you usually win games on turn 5. So you have to manage model death until that point. I tend to stick to resilient units like soul gridners, great deamons, plague bearers and blood crushers and deamon princes as the main spend of my points.

Another thing to remember is that daemons are pretty good at playing missions. You can usually just deepstike onto objectives and then play defend via tar pit and hammer. In KP games, you can engage combats against weak opponent and just tie a unit up for a long time, or just deepstirke units toward the corners and hide them or pick off little units.

Finally, there are some good force multiplier units like the scribes, skull taker, Kirios, epidemius and the masque. They are really useful and powerful if you build a list around them. Also a special not to the masque. He usually lasts a turn but he can be a serious game winner.

put him in your second wave with soul grinders and phlem and bunch people for template shots. At the same time he brings units closer to charge. Also drop him next to a unit with an icon. Most poeple won't know they can pick him off in the shooting phase.

The plus side is that you can deepstrike them into cover and not care.

Why do you say that?

They are no more survivable than any other Demon (barring Tzeentch, who is more survivable).

I'm pretty sure I know why but I'll see what the answer is first.

Like the rest of what you said.

The plus side is that you can deepstrike them into cover and not care.

easier said than done, i have had it more than enough times where a unit scatters miles away.
sometimes a run can help, but if its too far concider the unit pretty much dead.

What about those of us that don't worry about tournaments, and just enjoy the aesthetic of a scratchbuilt Slaanesh army?

I agree with stelek... there are only a few builds deamons have that can be competitive... and I haven't seen the list posted her yet on Dakka dakka :(

ialdabaoth wrote:What about those of us that don't worry about tournaments, and just enjoy the aesthetic of a scratchbuilt Slaanesh army?

I think this is fine. I like armies that look fantastic and they are fun to play against

I think viable lists are all in play style. I've found that most people get very opinionated about what is a bad unit but very rarely use that unit with other options in which it shines (granted beasts of nurgle only shine in an tallyman list which i'll never field so that is one unit that is just out).

My biggest challenge is my elites. I love flamers, fiends and bloodcrushers and have all of them. My troops are pretty solidly built around bloodletters, nettes and horrors. I'm looking at a plaguebearer unit too but it might be a bit. I've got my screamers(gotta try them before i give them up) and my seekers (awesome models and rules). Got khorne dogs to but they will probably not see much use in 40k (they rock in fantasy) and i'll be alternating my heavies regularly to see what I like best.

I'll see if demons are competitive or not starting in the next few weeks when I get home and start to get some games in with them I'm looking forward to it and truly think they are a solid list that will require a different type of style. I could be wrong but I've yet to run an army as my tournement army that didn't go at least 2-1 at every RT i go to and normally more like 2-0-1 or 3-0. Which could just mean I run into easy opponents or that i'm insanely lucky but i'd like to think i'm not to shabby at playing with my little toy soldiers

Well a Deamon List won the ArdBoyz finals.

Really? Well that is interesting. Have they posted the results yet or were you there? Thanks

http://gwuscommunity.com/?p=351

It should say Chaos Deamons and I personally know the winner.

Plus got 3rd at Balty. Can we finally lay to rest the fallacy that it is not a competitive list?

In a nutshell, what are the competitive builds at this point?

The main ones I have seen so far

3 soul grinders

and/or

nurgle/khorne

and/or all khorne

and/or khorne/slaanesh with 4 heralds

- the early leader for the broken list, the epidemius blender doesn't seem to be so broken after all.

Well the guy who won used Fateweaver and blood crushers so that's probably pretty good!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ah yeah bloodcrushers are great (always my mvp - don't know how I didn't list them above specifically)

i'm a massive crusher fan, often a 4/5 man unit, with full command and occasionally a herald, that way the wounds can be spread and they will always hit their target

Its not to hard to win with demons if you get to cheat with them.

Other then that the Bloodcrushers are really all that good, regardless of what you have for them as HQ. Heralds or personally I prefer Bloodthirsters.

They can be really good but you are trusting to chance, you might get totally screwed with your reserve/DS rolls and it will loose the whole tourney for you in 10 minutes of bad rolling.

Any Tzeentch/Slaanesh heavy builds?

Slaanesh don't do remarkably well due to being shot off the board with ease. Everything is T3 or 4 with 5+ or 4+ saves. Poor to average toughness with poor to average durability yields units that die, then charge and die.

Tzeentch is decent shooting, but T3 and vulnerability to assault with very limited anti tank means that they also die pretty hard. Horrors are one of the better troop choices, though, simply because they grant you some moderate first strike ability.

My build was fairly different than the majority of the other builds at Baltimore the only similarity to a lot of the builds being my use of three grinders (I use tongue on mine). I posted my list over in the Orks, Orks, Orks, Baltimore gt thread.

The daemon army can be competitive. It does have it's rock/paper/scissor match ups that you are going to have to fight to pull out ties and minor wins from.

I still think people aren't familiar enough with the daemon dex and as more people become more familiar it will get harder for daemon players.

So a group of Plaguebearers were about to jump into real space, but one said, "Hey! We need shooting!" Luckily, they had their most hated foes - Horrors of Tzeentch- on speed dial. Once united (still hating each other) someone said "Who will do the killing stuff?" So the Horrors got on the phone with their most hated foes - Bloodletters- and soon they were ready to drop. The standard protocols were followed.

"Before trans-dimensional departures, all daemons must purchase 2-3 daemon princes. Please note that sworn alliances to gods other than your own are encouraged. In the event of a single die roll, your departure plans may be changed at any time. Please note that The Warp, Inc takes no responsibilities for any damage caused by scattering off table edges, Inquisitors, poor terrain, or just generally showing up with your pants around your ankles. thank you and enjoy your trip."

Way to hang out in previous editions. The rest of us are caught up to the new world order.

I wonder if anyone here sees a single God Army as viable? I have a 1500 slaanesh list I have played with, but it is not really viable. I could add plague bearers, but that is not in keeping with decades of tradition!

"New world order" my left foot!

Heh, I did pretty well at the Vegas GT with an all Khorne list (with Grinder support.)

They can be done but in addition to not being super efficient they can be a bit boring to play as each god's units have a specific role to play.

Basically, the new way feels kind of Eldar-ish to me with different specialists working together.

Nobody complains about a list mixing Eldar aspect warriors together - and an all dark reaper (and dark reaper "light" units) might be okay but it would also be boring and one dimensional.

Shep pointed out to me that I was a bit cranky in my earlier post, sorry about that.

All hail the immortal topic!!

My brother runs a Wraith list in 40k. It may not win all the time, but it has a lot of character. But you are right from a rules perspective! Each unit brings it's own talents to the board.

Reading over this thread again (5th time?) it just looks like if there was one army NOT to go with "just one god"- it would be slaanesh. I chose... poorly. hehe

What do you mean by one god? You could do pure slaanesh, but you would have to put some grinders in the list. Post up a list in the army lists section and we will help you with it.

I just recently started fielding Daemon armies (just started playing 40K for that matter). I've so far found that the Daemon armies I have built are viable and can be competitive, but it is very dependant on being EXTREMELY strategic with the deployment. Of course with the scatter this can be a pain.

One of the problems I have found with this army though is that it is ALWAYS at a weak point on the field due to the deep strike rule for half the army. We usually play 1,000 point games or the occasional 2,000 pointer and I find that at most I usually have half or less of my points value on the field. Because of this I have realized that maximum unit sizes is an absolute MUST if you want the Daemons to pose any real threat to whoever you're fighting. If you try to split this army into a variety of units you will most likely
see a lot of unused points sitting on the side at the end.

Of course I am still trying to figure out the ins and outs of this army so if anyone has any suggestions that they have found work I'd love to hear them.

I actually found max troop size to be a liability for anything but Nurgle Plaguebearers. It allows your opponent greater efficiency in their shooting damage (less opportunity for wasted wounds) and one or two consecutive bad rolls can see significant numbers of your reserves held out of the fight until turn 4. Maybe you've been luckier than I have, but running big squads of troops has definitely made a few games closer than they might have been otherwise.

In my gaming circle (Local GW shops, etc) My Daemons win 90% of the time, and only real trouble is Orks that field a lot of Lootas (2+ squads of 15 is brutal). Many games I have to squeeze for a tie or a minor victory vs orks w/loota spam.

Crushers are Amazing units and can be devastating.. if you run anything more than 10 of these guys its a done deal. However, it does make for a boring play; so I avoid anything that Im spamming units, not my style. I like to play more of a mixed list that require some finesse (which will make you a better player in the end).

My Lists look something like
BT, 4 crushers, 2x3 flamers, letters, PBs, Horrors, 2 Grinders, DP. I am planning on dropping some flamers and bump the crusher group to 8.

I am on the fence regarding them being competitive. Most games I dominate, and if I get my entire army on turn 2 its a wrap... However, I played many games where the dice rolls wasnt with me.. i.e. DS Mishaps and rolling 1s or 2s, 3 Units not coming in until turn 5. These things can really hurt you. Which in a tournament environment this can mean going from leading to loosing.

If they make some changes to their DS I can definitely them being all the way competitive on the verge of being Over Powered. That DSing is a gift and a curse, but it also helps to balance them. Daemons are just tough.. No instant deaths, and entire army ignores low AP weapons (besides FNP) is hardcore).

But thats my take.. if a daemon player rolls bad... they feel the pain WAY more than any other army.. which makes them not go all the way.

Mausama

the same thing happens if any player with any army rolls bad

My experience with Daemons has been to experience an early "hump" in difficulty, i.e. getting all your units on the board and in position to do something useful, then getting shot up on Turn 1/2. If you can get over that initial hump and deliver a few units into assault while landing the rest of your force safely, everything tends to evolve steadily in the Daemon player's favor.

This is what makes the army not-that-fun for me. I go from high stress, nail biting drama, to 'got my units in the assault, ride on Easy Mode to my inevitable destination'.

Great army to bust out of the closet every so often, and I do love the units, but I don't think it'll ever be "my army".

As to its overall competitiveness, if the IG codex and static gunline come back in a big way, I could see it losing its overall edge. But even then, all you have to do is thunk down Blood Crushers and you're typically "good to go".

Tortuga932 wrote:the same thing happens if any player with any army rolls bad

This is very true, however Daemons truly feel the pain. The daemon player has to leave many many decisions up to dice rolls (Which half the army coming in, when they are coming in, where they going to be when they arrive). Of course this is the problem with all DSing Lists, but in all cases except daemons DSing is a option not a MUST!!

If you are good thinking on your toes Daemons can be a good army for you, because you really dont know what you are going to get or where you going to be at the beginning of a game. This kind of sorta ties into what sourclams was mentioning. The daemons DS has a huge (and Painful) Learning curve. In many ways I believe that DS is about 30% ~ 40% of a Daemons players Tactics (List making is a large % as well).

Again, DS is a very much a gift and curse with daemons. I feel its more of a curse after playing over 50 games with them, but hey thats my opinion. I moved to another army partially due to this very reason (being random); also, people stopped playing vs my Daemons.. All a sudden when I come in.. I be like "Anyone want to Play?!?" and everyone is like "Ahh.. man I really have to finish painting this unit", soon as I started to play with my filthy puss filled Marines Folks would stop painting to play.. sadly its becoming the same again with my CSM"

Mausama

What is hard to learn with Daemons is dice roll risk mitigation. I've been building my Daemon armies with identical or nearly identical halves. Regardless of the dice roll my deepstrike strategy is the same.

Linkdead wrote:What is hard to learn with Daemons is dice roll risk mitigation. I've been building my Daemon armies with identical or nearly identical halves. Regardless of the dice roll my deepstrike strategy is the same.

I thought of this when i First started daemon.. however, I found you cannot make a 875 list and double it. It does fix of the randomness in what army you are getting, but you will be breaking many things. I hate to say it, but I think other than going crusher spam.. Daemons need options. Just have to make you list to neither half is bad.. rather than making the same list twice.

I would make this longer, but Its time to leave work.

Do some test games.. you will see.

Mausama

Yeah as I said earlier in this very thread, 2 half armies is not competitive. I agree with most of what Mausama said - the way to keep them playing against you is to bring completely different daemon armies each time.

Sorry to burst everyone's bubble... but demons are not only a viable list to run, but I don't think there will be anything out there to stop them. Just played against a guy (who I hope won't take offense but doesn't matter if he does) dropped the "Skittles" bomb on me. I will say this, there is ABSOLUTELY NO LIST out there that should/possibly take it down on a consistent basis. I expect from now on when i show up to any game to concede before deployments (after checking the army list to make sure that it is indeed the "Killer Skittles" list) without a second thought. Take all the LR's you want. They won't do any good. Take all the Nob bike squads you want as well.... they just bounce. Nothing works. Don't believe me? Wait until the next GT comes around.
Short of the "Skittles Bomb" player having crappy drops (which is the only chance in hell you have on winning by the way, and even then its an uphill fight) the only way to even think about taking it out is to kill the blue guy with the 3+ invul with rr. Good luck doing that though as anyone taking this list will already know that he is the weak link and will take precautions on dropping him safe in the basket.

What is the skittles bomb? I haven't heard that term before.

That's where your opponent, knowing he's playing an inferior army, just throws tons of skittles at you until you get so annoyed you forfeit and walk away.

Yeah what is a Skittle's bomb? BloodCrushers? I kind of figured the "blue guy" is Kairos.. but skittles? Interesting.

Mausama

basically its taking something from all four colors that the list has to offer... Khorne (red), slaneesh (pink), nurgle (green), and tzeench (blue) it really sucks too. Apart from bieng really expensive to actually field I have played against it personally as the owner had made a decent modifacation of bloodletters/cold ones for some really cheap bloodcrushers. Call me a noob or whatever, been playing a balanced list for like 3 yrs and getting stomped by that army really doesn't want me to play against it much.

OK, well, what's the list? What's he taking from what color? You mentioned Kairos and Bloodcrushers, but what else? I'm guessing plaguebearers as troops, maybe Grinders, maybe Seekers for pink (the only real worth it from that color in many-god).

I like fiends in the many-god list as well. Their ridiculous charge range, high strength, lost of attacks, and hit and run work pretty darn well for me. I actually take 5 flamers (4 can flame on the drop and normally this number means at least 2 uses), 4-5 bloodcrushers, and 4-6 fiends. It's seems to be the most useful in all situations for me. Just my two cents on the elites slot.

pretty much kairos, bloodcrushers, plague bearers, bloodthirster and "pink" grinders. hate it very much. prolly was cheated though, lotta people told me after game that the person was movin stuff kinda fishy.

Alphus wrote:pretty much kairos, bloodcrushers, plague bearers, bloodthirster and "pink" grinders. hate it very much. prolly was cheated though, lotta people told me after game that the person was movin stuff kinda fishy.

Maybe me being a vet Daemon player I can seen at least 2-3 ways to counter such a drop if running SM or Spike SM. I would read up on his dex to make sure he isnt doing shady things and call him on it.. One common mistake I see with many daemon players is Deep striking a troop w/icon and have everything else come in off that same icon in same turn.. But knowing your opponents dex improves your tactics and rule's lawyering (lol) dramatically.

Most of the time someone will get me once with shady tactics, but never twice.

Mausama

Some more common mistakes Daemon players make:

Not splitting there forces up equally and picking the side they want even if they don't get there 3+ roll.

Bringing in a Unit of 8 Bloodcrushers off an Icon when they can not physically fit within 6' of the icon. The best you can get is 4 otherwise you have to scatter.

There's a YMDC question I was curious about. When dealing with icons, homers and the like - is it all models must be within X distance of the icon (like mrdabba is suggesting), or is it only the first model that forms the center of the circle?

Yeah this is a good question; However, you will be hard pressed to find this answer in the BRB.

In most friendly games, I assume this would not be an issue at all. However, not sure in a tournament settings.

Yeah, it should be the center one, however, you can actually fit more bloodcrushers. You can do the center one, then 5 around it, then another 4-5 on the side away from the iconbearer (usually).

It seems clear to me that only the first model matters since that is the only one that scatters.

If thats the case then we have been playing it wrong at my club. We played it that the entire unit had to be within 6' of the icon.

mrdabba wrote:If thats the case then we have been playing it wrong at my club. We played it that the entire unit had to be within 6' of the icon.

Yeah, we've always played it the first model is the determination for scatter (Is it within 6?) then the other models are placed around it...even if they go outside of the 6. I take it your club doesn't allow players to Icon SoulGrinders either (As they are wider than 6 inches)?

AgeOfEgos wrote: I take it your club doesn't allow players to Icon SoulGrinders either (As they are wider than 6 inches)?

LOL... that was coooooooollld Blooooded.. Age of Egos is cold as ice.. haha.. just kidding.

yeah I have always been playing this way and never once had a problem.. even at the local tournaments at GW shops.. Its all good.

AgeOfEgos wrote: I take it your club doesn't allow players to Icon SoulGrinders either (As they are wider than 6 inches)?

A soul Grinder does fit within 6inches of an Icon. If they converted and it did not fit I would say it had to scatter..even by your standards of the rule...its the model deep striking that has to be within 6 inches correct?

mrdabba wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote: I take it your club doesn't allow players to Icon SoulGrinders either (As they are wider than 6 inches)?

A soul Grinder does fit within 6inches of an Icon. If they converted and it did not fit I would say it had to scatter..even by your standards of the rule...its the model deep striking that has to be within 6 inches correct?

You kind of hit on my point. The models base/part has to be touching the 6 inch bubble but the entirety of the model does not need to be within 6 inches (Which is what semi-prompted this discussion regarding crushers). Look at the example of transports/embarking within 2" on pg. 66 of the rulebook. Many players believe that the entire base of the model must be within 2 inches to embark/disembark, when only part of their base needs to touch the 2 inch bubble. Same with the icon (Initial model)...it doesn't need to be within 6 inches of the icon, just part of its base needs to touch the 6 inch 'bubble'.

/I got my Grinder(s) off the shelf, each are around 6 1/4-1/2 inch spreads. This may vary to how you pose the legs....