After much hand-waving freakoutery, the codex is pretty much out, or at least, the important parts have been leaked

Sternguard, 6 guys in a HB razorback, with a sgt w/ plas pistol, powersword, 2 marines with plasma guns, and 3 marines with combi-plas bolters is gonna run in the mid 200 pts to field.

I'm just not seeing it. same pts cost for a SCORING unit of 10 tac marines with plas and multi-melta, with the sgt kitted out roughly the same..

so help me out guys, should I include a sternguard unit, or just add a 5th tac squad in a rhino?

A very killy unit, but it will take a good general to keep them alive. Space marines already have a problem with too few numbers, so reducing them further for special weapons better give a substantial increase in performance. Last edition I would have said yes, take them. This edition where cover, and volume of fire is king, I'm not so sure. It depends on the rest of the list I guess.

You can make them scoring, but it's up to you if the special character is worth the points.

Personally if you want cheap plasma, Inq stormtroopers aren't half bad. Their transport costs are high though.

I've been pondering this myself. As a new SM player, optimal doesn't jump off the page at me. I do think Sternguard's value is dependant on what else is in the list.

Example: If you're willing to spend the points on Kantor, all of your SG Vets become scoring. 2-3 squads of SG Vets seem extremely valuable since they are scoring and you can tool them up for a specific function, while maintaining their utility through special ammo.

I don't think I would give up bolters unless it was for a H-Flamer or Missile Launcher. Their special ammo gives them too much utility.

I'm leaning towards 6 man squad w/ 2 HF and 4 combi-meltas in a Razorback with Assault Canon. This squad screams utility to me, but may turn out to be cost prohibitive...

It's hard choices like this that make me like this codex.

Run sternguard with combi-meltas.

Never run them without bolters.

Never use flamers.

Have a nice day.

Stelek wrote:Run sternguard with combi-meltas.

Never run them without bolters.

Never use flamers.

Have a nice day.

What about heavy flamers? Those are pretty useful, though I suppose limited to drop pods or LR/Rhino transport. Though I can see why you'd not want to swap out their bolters, they're pretty versatile weapons as is.

Sternguard are scoring with Pedro. It isn't a huge issue. As for them being "worth the points"-maybe. Probably not against mech armies. Footslogging MEQs and TMCs yes.

Sternguard get 5 point meltaguns.

And bolters that do everything.

Sure it's 30 points a guy.

So? More than twice as good as a marine.

Don't skimp if you are gonna bring Sternguard, bring 2 or 3 units.

People will learn to fear them.

I imagine, though, that you'd have to play either aggressively or carefully with them. After all, they do die just as easily as any other space marine. So either go all out and hope to cause as much damage as you can, or be very careful and protective in their use, only bringing them to bear when you can be sure they will do insurmountable damage to their target, and not be exposed to serious counter measures.

I'd also imagine they're less useful against Marine armies than people will think. Oh, you have AP3 weapons? OK, we'll stick to cover. Oh, you have ammo that ignores cover? OK, we'll use our 3+ save. It's the same dilemma that Thousand Sons have, at least against MEQ. Note that I'll not doubt they're much better than TS against just about anything else, including vehicles. Still, if your opponent maneuvers incorrectly or you catch them off-guard, you're going to do some damage.

Stelek you havent posted that list over here, I think its about time. I was in the same boat about sternguard until I saw that list.

Been busy. I'll post it here.

I came to almost the same conclusion as Stelek. You don't want to add any regular special weapons after all you are losing the ammo you have spent 10pts to get. The value of Sternguard is that they are a one size fits all unit, especially with combi-weapons. Ideally you want two combi-flamers and two or more with combi-meltas. You truly then have a squad that can shoot up anythng except a Monolith, horde, monster, various infantry, heavy tank, the works.

The real trick will be how to use them, my initial assessment is as a single unit fo six, no more no less. This gives you enough flamer and melta to work with. They are the odd job squad, you look at what the opponent has on the table and see where you are lacking, or where you want an overwhelming strength. That is now the squads intended primary role for the battle. The rest is just opportunistic shooting; possibly at a completely different type of target as circumstances, or desperation, allows.

Where Stelek is wrong is over taking more than one unit, and the no flamer doctrine, unless he means flamer flamer rather than combi-flamer. I concur there. Anyway, two or three units means two or three units of 'upgraded tacticals' that cost as much as two regular tacticals apiece. there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. Sternguard are your elite stopgap, not your meat and potato unit. You must rely instead on correct selection of tacticals for your line if you wish to fight this way you will get a far better return for the points. Also Sternguard are by no means a mandatory choice, other elites are just as good if not better. If you do insist on spamming out Sternguard take techmarines and use bolster defences on the cover terrain you have the Sternguard set up in. The majority of the time they will be waiting for the enemy to come to them. In case you dont know the techmarine with the Thunderfire cannon is still allowed to help out here.

I like Sternguard, they are a flavourful unit rather than the old bland veterans and fitr their role well. They hang around 'at the back' without agenda and fill the holes in the attack plan as they appear. Simple as.

Sternguard are like 40K's version of Maxwell House. They're good to the last bolter. Never, ever, ever give them stormbolters. Never give them a special weapon- load up on combi-weapons if you want that, and use them judicuosly. But honestly I'm thinking of taking them in 10's at their basic TO&E and firing special ammunition all day long. Stelek has something going, I think its Sternguard with Combi-Meltas and Vulkan to twin link them. Also not a bad 1-2 combo. Given the 1 shot nature of combi-weapons, I imagine its comparable or even better than Pedro making them scoring.

Edit: Its Vanguard that are the disappointers from this go-round.

The Combi weapons are not a waste of points? Or is it just a really handy way to take a bunch of them?

Seems that you'd want to use them much more agressively than 'hang at the back' firefighters. I'm thinking throw them in drop pods/rhinos, hurl them right into the nastiest point of conflict, blow away the opposition with their special ammo, and let basic Marines exploit the gap. Sternguard are your 'hammer' unit. They set your opponent reeling and your other stuff just keeps them off balance.

The problem I have with minimal squads that lurk on the field is they're way to expensive to risk them so easily.

In my opinion, the combi-weapons aren't a waste of points, but they're not required either. I wouldn't toss the Sternguard up front, nor would I leave them at the back. I'd throw them somewhere in the middle if I could.

Seems to me you are paying 25 points for the special ammo on a 'chassis' that is T4 W1 3+ (far as I know), you are going to want to shoot it as much as you can. Not that a near guaranteed tank kill is not handy.

If taking multiple squads you could always take one with, and one without.

a 5 points a pop, sprinkling in some combi-meltas usually wouldn't be a full waste of points.

sourclams wrote:Seems that you'd want to use them much more agressively than 'hang at the back' firefighters. I'm thinking throw them in drop pods/rhinos, hurl them right into the nastiest point of conflict,

Breton wrote: I wouldn't toss the Sternguard up front, nor would I leave them at the back. I'd throw them somewhere in the middle if I could.

You are thinking geography rather than tactics. Front, middle, back whatever, they are the tactical backstop. Aka: "I havent forseen this but I had held back some Sternguard to deal with the unforseen". whatever held back' literally means is up to you. In a Drop Pod in orbit, in the missle of the front lines in a reinfiorced terrain feature or waiting behind the lines are all options. The only comment to make here is that nothing in the unit makes them better at resisting fire or a smackdown any better than the rest of the battle brothers, so I would advise caution over agression

If you play cautiously and try to use Sternguard as a response force, they're going to be shot to pieces because defensively they're no better than regular marines at 166% of the price.

Stating the obvious here, but Lysander is pretty awesome with them even though he lacks a gun himself. He should also scare most close combat opponents. I'm thinking a Lysander+Kantor+Sternguard "Sons of Dorn" list could be pretty interesting.

I think Kantor opens up a lot of options simply by granting +1 attack. Kantor + Dreadnoughts, Kantor + Terminators, Kantor + assault marines all sound like things that would be pretty 'meh' normally but I'd be willing to test out.

Orlanth wrote:

Where Stelek is wrong is over taking more than one unit, and the no flamer doctrine, unless he means flamer flamer rather than combi-flamer. I concur there. Anyway, two or three units means two or three units of 'upgraded tacticals' that cost as much as two regular tacticals apiece. there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. Sternguard are your elite stopgap, not your meat and potato unit.

I disagree. Id rather have one sterguard unit than two tacticals if faced with anything short of orks in the open.

There are a lot of things Sternguard can really hurt that tacs cant even touch. Of course you still take a few tacticals with them. If you take one unit of six its just going to get wiped out and/or have little effect on the game.

Orlanth wrote:

there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

I think most ultra competitive lists take the complete opposite view. What is very good? Max MCs, max land raiders, max orks with max lootas, max wave serpents, max obliterators etc. In this game you either spam it or leave it at home if you want a powerful list.

Devastator Squads are equally expensive, while possibly benefiting (more) from cover. Plus they (the Sternguard) take an Elite spot.

What I like about the new book is the mix between Tac marines at 15 points and Terminators at 40. Sternguard at 25, and correct me if I am wrong but for ~30 points Honour Guard at 2+ (like a Terminator) with an extra attack, a Bolter and a Power Weapon. Or something like that. And they are special enough that if you want them you have to pick a certain HQ.

Honor Guard are Base 2, 1 for BP and Power+ weapon (assuming you don't go Relic Blade), Artificer armor, a nasty nasty champion, and the option for auxilliary grenade launchers. Check em out.

Can you put Storm Shields in there? Or no.

Someone in the other thread pointed out Sternguard have two attacks base. So if we are voting here, I say 'yes', they are worth their points. Combi-weapons optional. I would never give them Special Weapons unless you take multiple squads and really, really like Melta and Plasmaguns.

Nope, no Storm Shields available to Sternguard.

*hurumph* Thanks.

I don't know that more than 4(ish) combi-meltas are required. Anything over that is just... points spent.

But yes, otherwise Sternguard are chewy-goodness.

Given the relative lack of mobility and vehicles being difficult to kill, I can't think of a better buy for 20 points.

What can I get, really?

If I'm firing at tanks I'd rather be sure they are dead than only fire 'enough' statistically speaking.

It's not so much the 20 pts in a vacuum , but the practice of loading up "just because you can". Do that across 3 squads and suddenly 20 pts are 60... and so on and so on. If you've built your list, have pts left over and can't find something else to buy - then by all means, load up on combi's.

You buy 60 points worth of combi-meltas, you can buy two more Lascannons (at 70) for a Dev squad and fire the Lascannons all game, AND the fancy ammo all game.

Still, 20 points ... worthwhile. Heck, after you take casualties with three guys left you can pop a tank. Reverse combi, fire them at the end.

So I did.

I couldn't really see a reason for lascannons or fists in a shooty army that wants to flee from combat and can take meltas.

I think they certainly have potential.

think of them as a varient to devestator squads.

they get the lascannons cheaper than a dev squad by 20 points.

so if you take 2, that is a savings of 40 points. spread out over the cost of the first 5 models, and you're ahead by 5 pts over the cost of a 5 man dev squad with 2 lascannons.

for a squad of 6, its roughly equal in cost and can perform much the same anti tank role. but having those special ammo bolters will mean they can also be extremely effective at shooting infantry down. giving them a better multi purpose than a standard dev squad

or you can go the mechanized/pod route and lay flaming death down on something.

in which case podding in at 12" away would be just devestating. (combined with the character that makes all meltas and flamers TL)
so give em some combi meltas, combi flamers and pod in at skirmish range. just begin unloading upon them. either give the sarge upgreaded wpns, or put the character in with them for close up beatings

NaZ

This squad seems like the quintessential Space Marine unit. They represent total flexibility when you gear them properly (tons of combi-meltas). Put them in a Drop Pod and you WILL cause a ton of pain no matter what your scatter is.

Orks/Genestealers/Guard? 2+ ammunition yields 11 kills.
MEQs? AP3 ammunition yields 7 kills.
Fire Warriors/Eldar/etc? AP4 ammunition yields 9 kills.
C'Tan? 2+ ammunition yields 6 wounds.
Wraithlord? 2+ ammunition yields 4 wounds.
Terminators? Combi-meltas yield 4 kills.
Hive Tyrant? Combi-meltas yield 5 wounds.
Any vehicle but a Monolith? Dead.

Combi-meltas give this unit the rounding it needs to take on 2+ armor and vehicles. For 5 points each it seems like a no-brainer, especially if you're playing Salamanders.

Arn't Combi-Meltas (or any Combi-) 1-shot weapons?

Yes, useful.. but just a 1 shot. Great vs Tanks, or big guys.. once.

Also, (and this may be my misunderstanding of targeting rules).. say you have 5 Sternguard, 3 with Combi-meltas.. and a Land Raider wanders in range of the meltas.. isn't the 2 bolter armed chaps firing at the tank as well?

I don't know if they can "split fire" for the melta shooters at the LR, and the bolters with nice ammo at the accompaning CSM chappies?

If you can't split the fire, and they are one shot.. wouldn't their effectiveness be much less?

-Porkuslime

4 meltaguns will generally blow a LR up.

One shot is all they are, but if one shot is all you need...

Oh and no you cannot split fire.

6th edition I wager you'll be able to, as AT-43, Warmachine, and Flames of War eats into more GW market share they'll fall into line and stop making rules.

Yes combis are only one shot weapons. Typically you deploy in some form of transport, your guys jump out, vaporize whatever the target is, and that target was worth more than the 5x points you spent on combis.

Yes the bolter guys have to shoot at the same target.

Look, you drop the Sternguard in behind enemy lines and then vaporize/bolterize a key enemy unit. Who cares if you only get one shot? As long as you kill, or severely damage your target, the Sternguard have served their purpose. The enemy will have lost something major which allows the rest of your forces to destroy them easier.

Vanguard are better at dropping in behind the enemy, or taking the fight to them.

Sternguard, I think, would work better as mobile reserves, either in a Rhino or accompanying a Librarian with Infinity's Gate.

Nurglitch wrote:Vanguard are better at dropping in behind the enemy, or taking the fight to them.

Sternguard, I think, would work better as mobile reserves, either in a Rhino or accompanying a Librarian with Infinity's Gate.

The reverse is true.

I speak from experience.

Nurglitch wrote:Vanguard are better at dropping in behind the enemy, or taking the fight to them.

Sternguard, I think, would work better as mobile reserves, either in a Rhino or accompanying a Librarian with Infinity's Gate.

I partly disagree. Sternguard are better at dropping in via pod (aggressive) w/ a Librarian as 2nd wave. Then you Gate using your homers already on the board. Give them two meltas, some combiweapons and jump around with no scatter....

I think Vanguard are a 'fun' only unit. Elite HTH units suffered with 5ths rules.

I agree with what you're saying, especially the part about using them aggressively, except giving them meltaguns really voids their whole special ability, being their ammo options.

Combis really are the way to go with these guys. They're supposed to be all comers shooty marines. Giving them special weapons intentionally just makes them expensive marines. Combis, however, do really seem to be an excellent buy.

sourclams wrote:I agree with what you're saying, especially the part about using them aggressively, except giving them meltaguns really voids their whole special ability, being their ammo options.

Combis really are the way to go with these guys. They're supposed to be all comers shooty marines. Giving them special weapons intentionally just makes them expensive marines. Combis, however, do really seem to be an excellent buy.

You are probably right about the meltas...it just seems like I see enough armour to warrant giving up two members special ammo for them. Once a game just doesn't 'feel' enough. Again though, given the cheap combis...you're likely right.

AgeOfEgos wrote:
I think Vanguard are a 'fun' only unit. Elite HTH units suffered with 5ths rules.

Especially given how much more they pay for jump packs then regular assault marines...They finally decreased the cost of assault marines enough, and tehn tehy throw out "better" assault marines who are rediculously overcosted, and can't even use their only special rule if you deline to pay five times the cost for jump packs that assault marines do.

Jack

Sternguard 10 man with rhino is 265 points or a Drop Pod. If you use Khan they can outflank, if you use a psyker with Gate of Infinity you can deep strike them. If you use Scout Bikes with a Locator beacon you can deep strike with in six and not scatter, if you use Drop Pods with Locator Beacons they wont scatter.

They have a weapon that is good against all armies, Necrons, Tyranids, MEQ, Eldar.


How can you not love this unit?

Hollismason:

A 10 man unit of Sternguard with a Rhino or a Drop Pod, straight of the rack, is 285 points. They're vulnerable, compared to Tactical Marines, to close combat, to AP3- weapons, and to Sv2+ enemies.

Nurglitch wrote:Hollismason:

A 10 man unit of Sternguard with a Rhino or a Drop Pod, straight of the rack, is 285 points. They're vulnerable, compared to Tactical Marines, to close combat, to AP3- weapons, and to Sv2+ enemies.

Tactical marines don't have 2 attacks base.

People don't bring marine killing weapons--they bring kill-everyone weapons and that means no AP.

Save 2+ = meltagun.

Play much? Doesn't seem like it.

Big whoop. Two attacks. That might mean something on Company Veterans or Veteran Assault Squads, but on a shooting unit like Sternguard and without the weapons to exploit those attacks, like Powerfists and Lightening Claws and such, they are as tits upon some sort of male boviform ungulate.

This may come as a shock to you, Andy, but you and your little corner of the world is not the world.

Elsewhere, beyond the small pond you swim in, are places where Marines need cover, Terminators and Meganobz abound, and Melta Guns occasionally miss.

Lately I've seen far, far more lists favoring heavy usage of monstrous creatures and massed troops than I have of Terminators and, especially, the Big Metal Yeti that is the meganob.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but the games in my area reflect one demographic and not another.

Sternguard are far, far more effective than basic tactical marines against:

Monstrous Creatures
Units in cover
3+ save units
Dedicated assault units (due to being able to kill them before they close into base, as well as having as many attacks as 2 full squads of tacticals when receiving the charge)
and in all honesty are even better than tacticals against 2+ save units, due to being able to throw out wounding-on-2+-bullets

The big kick in the teeth for marines is that they're not excellent at anything, background material aside. Except for Sternguard, which are actually really good shooting marines. Yes, they have all the weaknesses as normal marines, but they also have a much higher offensive output versus 90% of the stuff you're going to have to go up against.

sourclams:

I'd expect Sternguard will be the rock that encourages people to use more paper and less scissors. They're certainly a live option when it comes to Elites, but I think, as with any unit, whether they are worth their points in any game will depend on the conditions of that game: who is playing, what else is in the game, the terrain, and what the victory conditions are.

At first they'll be shiny and new, but either people will adapt (if they haven't already to other elements in the game) or we'll all have to suffer through several years of whining about Sternguard cheesiness. My interest, naturally, lies with persuading people to adapt and overcome rather than blaming their armies.

I want to try out a utility librarian with Force Dome and Gate.


Kind of expensive though to cast both powers on the Sternguard, and I dont have offensive psychics, but the guy is 100 points.

What should I compliment the squad with though I was thinking 2 meltaguns, 2 flamers.

I used sternguard with a librarian who had avenger ( subbed normal tactical marines for sternguard)

I think just painting a Tactical squad as veterans and using lots of purity seals and oath badges would work well for Sternguard models.

Yes, No?

I definitely think Sternguard are one of the best new units to come out of the codex, but like any other expensive unit, the must be used judiciously and be incorporated properly into the army.

Sternguard definitely provide one of the best shooting infantry units in the game. They have a bullet for just about every target and can be issued combi-weapons for added versatility. Anyone who plans to build a marine army that focuses predominately on shooting will probably want some of these in his force.

I really, truly don't understand the people going 'yeah they're good, but you have to include them as appropriate'.

When something is good, you take as many of it as possible. 30 sternguard, drop pods or rhinos. There's your baseline list. Done. Add more units around it. The only real question is how many combi meltas/flamers to give them in addition.

Best lists? Mech spam, Landraider spam, Boyz spam, Loota/Shoota spam, TMC spam, Crisis spam, and now Sternguard spam.

Well, they're good, but they're also very very expensive. They give you a decided advantage in the shooting phase, but very little if any advantage in the assault phase, and die just as easily as any other Marine. So yes, they're good, but is that one offensive punch enough to justify not just 1 but 3 whole squads of them? Maybe, maybe not. That's a giant portion of most people's army lists, and again they're pretty fragile (inasmuch as Marines are fragile).

If you build the list around them, you'll get one good punch out of them, and then you have to hope that punch was enough to seriously cripple your army (as Stelek's army suggests). There are quite a few armies out there that can take 3 tac-squads shooting at them and retaliate swiftly, even with all their special ammo. Marines in cover, in particular, strike me as able to do this.

Thus including Sternguard as part of a balanced force can make sense. Taking a limited amount of Sternguard can make room for multiple other threats - do I deal with the Sternguard, the tac squads holding objectives, the terminators/dreads closing on me, the assault squad about to charge, or the havocs firing the crap out of me. Additionally, this will help avoid rock-paper-scissors matchups.

tzeentchling says it well. Over-emphasizing one strength at the cost of diversity, as well as numbers, means that you simplify your opponent's tactical problems, and thus make it easier for them to solve those problems correctly.

3 Sternguard squads cost 750 points. Call it 850 points to account for extra stuff. That gives you fully 1,000 points to play with for fleshing out your list.

Simple fact of the matter is that I can apply this exact same reasoning to any of the 'top tier' spam lists and they still crush balanced lists all the time. If you have enough points for 1 sternguard unit, free up the extra 500 and take 20 more.

tzeentchling says it well. Over-emphasizing one strength at the cost of diversity, as well as numbers, means that you simplify your opponent's tactical problems, and thus make it easier for them to solve those problems correctly.

Sounds great in a vacuum. Falls apart against a competitive list. The ability to kill everything is not ignoring diversity.

sourclams wrote:3 Sternguard squads cost 750 points. Call it 850 points to account for extra stuff. That gives you fully 1,000 points to play with for fleshing out your list.

Simple fact of the matter is that I can apply this exact same reasoning to any of the 'top tier' spam lists and they still crush balanced lists all the time. If you have enough points for 1 sternguard unit, free up the extra 500 and take 20 more.

tzeentchling says it well. Over-emphasizing one strength at the cost of diversity, as well as numbers, means that you simplify your opponent's tactical problems, and thus make it easier for them to solve those problems correctly.

Sounds great in a vacuum. Falls apart against a competitive list. The ability to kill everything is not ignoring diversity.

You should get a prize for saying so well what so many think.

Yes, three off-the-shelf Sternguard squads, ten Veterans each, will be 250pts each. And then you add ten Combi-Weapons, which will be about 50pts. And then you add a Transport to each squad, say 35pts, because you actually want them in position to do something.

That's 1005pts, leaving you with 1000pts to play with fleshing out your list. That's if you don't give the Veteran Sergeant Power Weapons or Power Fists instead of a Combi-Weapon (1035, 1065, respectively), don't give your transports any upgrades, and stay away from fancy stuff like Lascannons and Plasma Guns.

Gussied up, in Drop Pods with Deathwind Launchers and Locator Beacons, a Power Fist for the Sergeant, and Combi-Weapons all around, you're looking at 1170 points, leaving 680 pts.

100 of those points you'll want to spend on a Librarian so you don't get thoroughly boned by Lashes of Submission, and so you can reposition the Sternguard from their initial drop zones.

That 580 points left over should leave you plenty for a couple of basic Tactical Squads in Pods (w/Locator Beacons), and 150 points that you can then go to town with, although it should probably be another Librarian or loose some weight from the Drop Pods and add Pedro to increase your ability to actually win objective based games.

The problem is that this isn't a 'spam' list. Spam lists have more units, harder units, and more all-around units, which is why taking multiples seems to make them so easy to use.

With only three units of Sternguard, each the cost of two Tactical marines for the same toughness, you're reducing the number of targets that the enemy has to engage without making them harder to engage.

If you could make an army entirely of Sternguard, then you might have a spam list, albeit one without the ability to assault effectively, but three units ain't spam, and it won't crush a balanced list that isn't being run by an idiot. Not to say that spam lists can't be beaten relatively easily as well, they just usually don't have that big gaping assault-shaped gap in their strategy like a Sternguard-heavy list will have.

Nurglitch wrote:Yes, three off-the-shelf Sternguard squads, ten Veterans each, will be 250pts each. And then you add ten Combi-Weapons, which will be about 50pts. And then you add a Transport to each squad, say 35pts, because you actually want them in position to do something.

That's 1005pts, leaving you with 1000pts to play with fleshing out your list. That's if you don't give the Veteran Sergeant Power Weapons or Power Fists instead of a Combi-Weapon (1035, 1065, respectively), don't give your transports any upgrades, and stay away from fancy stuff like Lascannons and Plasma Guns.

Gussied up, in Drop Pods with Deathwind Launchers and Locator Beacons, a Power Fist for the Sergeant, and Combi-Weapons all around, you're looking at 1170 points, leaving 680 pts.

100 of those points you'll want to spend on a Librarian so you don't get thoroughly boned by Lashes of Submission, and so you can reposition the Sternguard from their initial drop zones.

That 580 points left over should leave you plenty for a couple of basic Tactical Squads in Pods (w/Locator Beacons), and 150 points that you can then go to town with, although it should probably be another Librarian or loose some weight from the Drop Pods and add Pedro to increase your ability to actually win objective based games.

The problem is that this isn't a 'spam' list. Spam lists have more units, harder units, and more all-around units, which is why taking multiples seems to make them so easy to use.

With only three units of Sternguard, each the cost of two Tactical marines for the same toughness, you're reducing the number of targets that the enemy has to engage without making them harder to engage.

If you could make an army entirely of Sternguard, then you might have a spam list, albeit one without the ability to assault effectively, but three units ain't spam, and it won't crush a balanced list that isn't being run by an idiot. Not to say that spam lists can't be beaten relatively easily as well, they just usually don't have that big gaping assault-shaped gap in their strategy like a Sternguard-heavy list will have.

Dead hard list... but dies to soooo many things. I hope I play against this at the Baltimore GT : )

Stelek wrote:You should get a prize for saying so well what so many think.

I really think it's only the vocal minority who don't see Sternguard as the powerhouse they are. Thanks for the props, regardless.

@ the VocMin:

30 Sternguard, 3 pods, 5 combi meltas each: 950 points.

950 points. That's *it*. You don't need deathwind launchers. You don't need locator beacons. A drop pod would have to scatter, literally, 9 inches or more to be out of melta range. Cut the bloat from your proposed list and you'll see how economic Sternguard really are. 950 points of kill-anything-dead-in-one-turn-of-shooting. That's plenty of points left over for 2 librarians and kitted out tactical squads for holding objectives. Point me at another 950 points of marines with that much utility.

Mech? Check.
Monstrous Creatures? Check.
Infantry? Check.
Assault? You can't assault when you're dead. Check minus.

Let me double down on Stelek's appreciation of sourclam's statement. It's completely true.

F- Balance. Useless, overrated attribute. The best lists are those which overwhelm and break the enemy's ability to deal with some facet of the list. Sure, this means you've probably got a weakness vs. the anti-you spam list, but if you chose your spam right you won't face that list after round 1, and there's always the chance its being run by a scrub and you'll win anyway.

People always talk about tactical marines as being balanced. They aren't, they are generalists who do everything so-so.

The thing about Sternguard is they are balanced. It doesn't matter what they drop next to because they have an answer to it. Give them combi-meltas, use their pod to protect them from dangerous shots, and give them a librarian so they can get out of combat and you have a great unit that can threaten any target. If that isn't the personification of the space marines then I don't know what is.

950 points. That's *it*. You don't need deathwind launchers. You don't need locator beacons. A drop pod would have to scatter, literally, 9 inches or more to be out of melta range. Cut the bloat from your proposed list and you'll see how economic Sternguard really are. 950 points of kill-anything-dead-in-one-turn-of-shooting. That's plenty of points left over for 2 librarians and kitted out tactical squads for holding objectives. Point me at another 950 points of marines with that much utility.

20 termies with 4 chainfists and 4 cyclone missile launchers are also equally utilitarian.

cypher wrote:

950 points. That's *it*. You don't need deathwind launchers. You don't need locator beacons. A drop pod would have to scatter, literally, 9 inches or more to be out of melta range. Cut the bloat from your proposed list and you'll see how economic Sternguard really are. 950 points of kill-anything-dead-in-one-turn-of-shooting. That's plenty of points left over for 2 librarians and kitted out tactical squads for holding objectives. Point me at another 950 points of marines with that much utility.

20 termies with 4 chainfists and 4 cyclone missile launchers are also equally utilitarian.

Except they aren't nearly as good when shooting as Sternguard are, and TH/Storm Shield units are better than they are in assault.

40kenthusiast wrote:Let me double down on Stelek's appreciation of sourclam's statement. It's completely true.

F- Balance. Useless, overrated attribute. The best lists are those which overwhelm and break the enemy's ability to deal with some facet of the list. Sure, this means you've probably got a weakness vs. the anti-you spam list, but if you chose your spam right you won't face that list after round 1, and there's always the chance its being run by a scrub and you'll win anyway.

More excellent advice.

Balance works only for your 'over the top' army, in that it can handle everything someone throws at it except the anti-yourlist list.

MC and tanks can be annihilated by meltagun armies, but those armies cannot stop hordes.

Vice versa, heavy bolters can stop hordes but those armies cannot stop tanks nor MC.

Just examples of what I mean--this IS a balanced list, in that it can handle anything BUT it's also overwhelming.

I think alot of people get confused by 'balance' and what tournament players mean by it.

Balanced and fluffy are definitely hard to do and always result in compromises--my DH army at Vegas tried both, and had serious weaknesses...but in the end, it was a gunline oriented towards putting out lots of heavy bolter shots and as long as I didn't face a LR rush early I'd probably do well.

I did in the end dodge that bullet by 1 point and 1 table over (Froggage ended up playing the LR list instead of me).

Just an example...

Watcher in the Dark:

Tactical Squads are balanced. You get what you pay for, and no more/no less. They're not as strong, offensively, as the same number of Sternguard. Of course, you can get about 50% more Tactical than Sternguard. All that translates into for Sternguard is a 50% increase in their shooting quality and quantity of close combat attacks, but not a commiserate increase in the unit's quantity of wounds or quality of T/Sv.

I'm not saying that Sternguard aren't a good unit, but multiplying that cost reduces your overall balance: you get a force that hits hard but crumbles quickly.

cypher's force of two Terminator squads also popped into my head, and if taken as two squads, you still have an Elite spot open. You could even spend that slot on Sternguard...

My own preference for those points would be:

Devastator Squad
10 Marines
w/Two Heavy Bolters, Two Multi-Meltas
Drop Pod
265

Devastator Squad
10 Marines
w/Two Heavy Bolters, Two Multi-Meltas
Drop Pod
265

Devastator Squad
10 Marines
w/Four Missile Launchers
Drop Pod
265

Dreadnought
w/Heavy Flamethrower, Drop Pod
150

Get rid of the drop pods, Devs are crippled by them. Crippled. The last thing you want with heavy weapons is to deploy closer to the enemy while counting as moving.

Get rid of the multimeltas. The tactical paradox of a 12" ideal threat range and being unable to move and shoot neuters them. Take lascannons if you're serious about anti-armor.

Now you've got a gunline that will do a fair to good job against horde, a fair job against light armor, and a fair to poor job against heavy armor. Unfortunately the dreadnought will probably be shot off the board or crushed in close combat before it does anything, as typically happens with lone dreadnoughts. You could take 2 more dreads, but they still probably won't do anything.

Or you could take 30 sternguard who are excellent against horde, excellent against armor, and as an added bonus always get the first shot.

The Terminators are stronger in close combat but are poorer in shooting. Their defenses are better but I personally prefer the 'make your enemy dead before they can do anything' defense.

And this coming from a guy with 30 very nicely painted SW termis.

I swear you don't play the same game the rest of us do.

sourclams:

I thought you wanted to see 950 points of Space Marines with the same utility as three units of Sternguard, rather than complete armies.

The configuration of 945pts of Marines that I have presented offers high effect against hordes, heavy armour, and mixed forces.

Part of the utility of the Marines I have shown you is that they leave two Elite spots open. Myself, I'd fill them with Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods, and land the Dreadnoughts in the first wave, with the Devastators landing in the second wave. Depending on what other points are available, it might be something to take a couple of Terminator squads with attendant Land Raiders. Teleport the Terminators in, and let the Land Raiders tote a Tactical squad or two onto the objectives.

Multi-Meltas are much more serious anti-armour than Lascannons if you're planning on using Drop Pods with Devastators. No Drop Pods, then Lascannons all the way, because you'll start 24" further away from the enemy.

Aside from being twenty points cheaper, which would be handy for some spare Deathwind Launchers, they have a Melta effect out to 12". The 6" Melta effect range on Melta Guns and Combi-Meltas is a joke unless you can consistently fire 3 or 4 a turn, preferably while moving 12"+. When it comes to a S8 AP1 hit, the 24" range of a Multi-Melta has two advantages, 6" on the maximum effective range of a Melta Gun if you go charging headfirst at the enemy (supposing, of course, you aren't in difficult terrain), and keeping a 12"+ gap between you and the enemy.

Add in the Signum, and possibly the Forgefather Vulkan, and you have a weapon that will crack open heavy armour like massed Battlewagons or massed Landraiders, ready to have the contents hammered with Heavy Bolters and Frag Missiles, as well as burned and stomped by Dreadnoughts.

Just a small point... the argument of 300+ points dedicated to a sternguard unit with much more survivability ....

The eldar closest equivalent 300+ points of fire dragons with a wave serpent. Seems to be the concensus this is a "must have" unit for the eldar. We are talking slightly more points for sternguard with more flexibility and survivability.

I think the sternguard are a very viable build for an army and 3 is not unreasonable especially if you take the commander that makes them a scoring unit.

I don't have the codex but how about this for a generic list...

1 Scout with sniper rifles and super sergeant... 200 pts.

3 Sterngaurd 900 pts

Commander that makes them scoring... 200 pts ???

Librarian for teleporting 100 pts ???

I have 1400 points locked up at this point...

Add 3 transports ( the librarian is a costly transport) 105 pts.

Two tac squads 350 pts (flamer, missile or spend a bit more)

I come out to 1855 I have two troops and 3 elites... is it small? yes but I can turn this into a very quick and lethal game.

Play a KP scenario... I have 11 KP on the board. 3 of them with combi-meltas are my anti-tank. I have a scout unit that can drop
high toughness creatures with 8 sniper rifles and 1 heavy bolter with the poison blast marker and 6 BS if I want it. I have two generalist tacs one sets up in a good firing position, the other drop pods. I have two sternguard in drop pods and one sternguard in
with the librarian. I think I have a good chance to get more kill points than my opponent with the instant lethality of the sterngard dropping in on turn one where I can either instantly reduce their killing power by taking out vehicles on turn one or taking out a nasty shooty unit of lets say ork lootas. Even if I consider this what 4 KPs, if I properly drop them in, I can force as side skirmish while he has to deal with the 2 full sternguard and perhaps the captain off on his flank. Meanwhile I have one mobile sternguard with the librarian and a tac squad and a scout squad picking them off at range and one more tac squad to drop in as a reserve.

Same army with the one objective in each zone... hmmm I drop two sternguard onto the objective in your zone again massive mayhem in your area with two sternguard (and a tac following next turn) and if I want, the 3rd sternguard in your zone all on turn one... I can probably automatically make this a game where I win or we draw as 3 sternguard, a captain, a librarian and a tac squad should waste a lot of your effort to get me out of your deployment zone.

Multiple objectives... hmmm two drop pods into the neutral zone or where your artillery park is set up. Not a healthy situation to turn it into a get me off the objectives right away.

It is a VERY viable option for a build and will cause fits to armies that count on sit back and shoot or on foot armies that want to assault since I will make it a 3-D battlefield before they know what hit them.

It does have a weakness but then almost every army does... 65 models for 1850... almost 30 pt average per model and other than the commanders 3+ AC and no invulnerables. By drop podding, I guarantee my first shot at you is an intact sternguard so I have to pick the right target the turn I drop in because I will expect a lot of return fire right away.

Nurglitch wrote:sourclams:
I thought you wanted to see 950 points of Space Marines with the same utility as three units of Sternguard, rather than complete armies.

The configuration of 945pts of Marines that I have presented offers high effect against hordes, heavy armour, and mixed forces.

I'm really trying to be polite and respect your opinion, but there's the offchance that somebody might read your post and believe you when you say that it's 'good', or something.

First off, multimeltas are slowed. Flat out slowed. You can say drop pod + multimelta = good, but then I can say that 2 + 2 = waffles.

Let me explain the scenario to you:

You land your 3 pods.

30 marines get out.

18 of them shoot at something, because HAHAHA 12 OF THEM ARE SETTING UP THEIR GUNS!

Whatever you're shooting at makes its 4+ armor or cover save, or is T5, or is a vehicle and ignores all of it HAHA ARMOR HAHAHA, and ideally you're looking at maybe 8 things dead. On average. 800 points of marines land and kill 8 things. Think about that for a second. But you've got your guns set up! Awesome! Ready to rock next turn!

Next turn the vehicles back up, or shimmy to the left/right, or just sit there knowing what's about to happen with their guns cocked and primed.

Now here's the big question: How many marines can an "average" army kill from 12" away (we did say the multimeltas were going to be effective, right? right?) in one turn of shooting and assaulting? The answer I would guess would be somewhere between 15 and 25. Flamers, heavy weapons, tanks, everything that you didn't manage to kill with your 36 bolter shots get to blast away with impunity. The assault units that you didn't kill royally rock your world because your guys 1. didn't kill enough and 2. have 1 attack base.

But this is viable, right? 800+ points well spent. Money in the bank. You don't need the ability to WTFPWN 3 units of your choice on landing, you can do that *next* turn. *Nobody* can kill 15 marines in one turn, right? They're not going to assault you, right? But-sourclams-sternguard-have-the-same-vulnerabilites! Yeah, except sternguard also nuked 3 landraiders on drop. Sternguard also-also can shoot to pieces three monstrous creatures on drop. Sternguard also-also-also can blow away the three squads in the middle of the table and now your enemy is forced to choose between killing Sternguard and meeting the other 1100 points of marines pounding up from the deployment zone. Sternguard aren't standing around with their ceramite thumbs up their fundaments setting up their guns while they get ripped apart.

Yes, okay, this is theory hammer on my part, but it's pretty basic theoryhammer. You have multimeltas with a 12" threat range. On the first or second turn, your opponent will probably not have moved more than 12" and their force will be relatively untouched. Your heavy weapons need a full turn to set up before they're able to shoot. Devastators are very 'meh' at short range firefights or in the assault. So what happens when 30 devastators are staring at an untouched army of XXXXXXX while putting their guns on bipods? Right. They get devastated next turn. I'd be quietly amazed if you managed anything better than immobilizing one vehicle.

sourclams:

I hope you're not trying very hard to be respectful, because it seems like you could do better.

DAaddict wrote:

It is a VERY viable option for a build and will cause fits to armies that count on sit back and shoot or on foot armies that want to assault since I will make it a 3-D battlefield before they know what hit them.

Exactly. The only thing your opponent can do is leave his army in reserves. That's it. No matter what else he does, he leaves *something* vulnerable. The only defense against Sternguard is to castle up and pray that they won't kill more than their worth on the turn they land. I'm currently becoming pretty intrigued by a Kor'sorro Khan +drop podding sternguard list just for the option of outflanking if I see my opponent going for the 'corner castle'.

I hope you're not trying very hard to be respectful, because it seems like you could do better.

I'm sorry, honestly, but people come to this forum to look at what works and what doesn't work in 40k. I don't see any possible way for multi meltas in devastator squads to work out of drop pods.

Sternguard are great against certain armies, don't get me wrong. If they are playing against certain armies (LR spam, probably Nidzilla, possibly horde orks, etc), then they can do serious damage on the drop. Problem is, you HAVE to cripple them on the drop. When you have 30 of them, you have a slightly better chance of doing so. You also leave yourself wide open to retaliation next turn if you don't make that crippling hit.

Consider against Marines in cover. You drop and fire 60 AP3 shots. Roughly 40 will hit (note about 10 will overheat, and you lose say one Guard from each squad), about 20 will wound, and about 10 men will die. That's one full squad, or spread out damage among squads, again at the cost of 3 of your own guard. If you're firing at Plague Marines, then that's 13 wounds, 7 go through cover, 3-4 die. You could fire your combimeltas and increase that count a bit, but then your one-shot weapons are gone.

Not too bad for one round of shooting from 30 guys. But now your 30 (27) guys are within rapid-fire range of your opponent's whole army, or close enough for Marines, or easily within heavy weapon range of heavier weapons. Against Chaos, you get lashed and plasma-cannoned or Vindicatored. Again, your Sternguard aren't very tough.

Against some armies, yes, your one drop will devastate them. People who rely on LR spam, lots of Nidzillas, possibly even horde orks or something, are going to be hurting. But remember, they're still bolter weapons, and there's always some drawback - either wound on a 2+, ignore cover, or ignore 3+ armor, but odds are most models will be able to take at least one of those three to their advantage.

I'm not seeing the fear of sterngaurd in the set up you guys are talking about versus hordes. Without flamers, they don't scare my orks much. 10 of them are going to kill what, 6-7 orks? So 30 could cripple a mob of 30 orks. But I get 3 or 4 orks for each sterngaurd. So next turn I'm either going to shoot you to bits with the remainding 2 mobs or assault and murderize you with them.
Is there an obvious answer to this I'm not seeing?
I don't think my plague marines would be too scared of the AP3 bolters either- they're still T5 with feel no pain. The meltas, sure, but then you only get one shot. There's still going to be plague marines left next turn and they are probably going to paddle you in close combat.
Not saying Sterngaurd are crap or anything, just that the spam is less scary than advertised, to my mind.

sourclams:

Thank you for trying harder. I appreciate it.

Now let's talk about your analysis of the 945pts that I posted. Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that only the 945pts of Space Marines lands.

That makes it four Drop Pods. Three Pods with Devastators, one containing a Dreadnought.

Thirty Marines and one Dreadnought disembark.

Eighteen Marines do not shoot anything. Why would they? Why would you land Devastators within 18" of an enemy. You want them between 19"-24", optimal Multi-Melta range. They're Devastators, you land them close to positions from which they will be able to use their range and firepower to support your Tactical Squads.

So 30 Marines run hellbent for cover.

At least one Dreadnought does land nice and close to some sort of infantry shooters or a tank. Remember that although, for the sake of argument that Dreadnought is dropping with only three Devastator Squads, the behaviour of these 945pts of Devastators must be understood in relation to however many points of other Space Marines are in the same force, as well as whatever might be on the ground waiting for them.

So we have eleven units: Four Drop Pods, One Dreadnought, Six Combat-Squaded Devastators. Ignoring special rules like Target Lock or We Are Legion, the enemy will need at least eleven units to engage them all, and at least in the case of the Devastators will need to deal with cover.

The Dreadnought, equipped to deal with any target of opportunity, maybe damages a tank, frags a light vehicle, or decimates a squads (remember, decimation is 1/10 killed).

So 945pts of Marines has landed, and only 150 points, putatively, has hurt anything. So what? Another 690 is now in position to lay the hurt on whatever is on the board, and survived the onslaught of the other units, possibly other Dreadnoughts, possibly Tactical squads, whatever else is available. If the points are available then giving some of the Drop Pods Deathwind Launchers will be very handy for taking points that have served one purpose and giving them another. A well balanced unit, you might say.

So yes, quite different from the Sternguard. With the Sternguard you get a maximum of nine units who need to land within 14" of something dangerous, and who need to disembark within the charge range of anything in the game while being mediocre at close combat.

Maybe you do have special ammunition. Between twenty and ten shots, depending on how you decide to combat squad.

You can deny an enemy cover. But you can't deny armour and invulnerable saves at the same time (unless you shell out for that Librarian).

You can deny Sv4+, but anything with that sort of armour will also be using cover, or come in such numbers that a few casualties are to be expected (rather like denying cover).

You can wound models on a 2+. Again, armour saves, cover saves, range, etc.

You can deny Sv3+, but then invulnerable saves, cover, and Gets Hot take the sting off of that.

You can use Melta Shots, but they're one use, and cover saves, particularly from smoke, are damned handy. If you get the first turn against a drop podding army, you let them drop into a smoke shrouded battlefield and let Dog sort it out.

Really, tzeentchling said it well enough, but it's worth considering in terms of the number of units you can engage, as well as how well you can engage them, and how well you can re-engage survivors, either by luck (misses, failure to wound, etc) or by planning (cover saves, troop choices, not sitting around waiting for the first wave of pods, etc).

If you have nine units, six of them Sternguard with Combi-Meltas, then you can engage up to nine more units than otherwise relatively ineffectively, and or less more effectively until diminishing returns set in around three units.

You should do well if the enemy isn't (1) numerous both in units and models, (2) good at close combat, (3) possessed of an invulnerable saving throw, (4) a Sv2+, (5) hiding in vehicles, and (6) politely castled up where you can effectively concentrate such short-ranged firepower.

A unit of Sternguard is definitely a viable and useful Elite choice and would do well in any army. Unless you can plump out the numbers by placing your army on foot, and taking Pedro and/or Librarians, then two or three units of Sternguard probably aren't worth the points.

Da Boss wrote:I'm not seeing the fear of sterngaurd in the set up you guys are talking about versus hordes. Without flamers, they don't scare my orks much. 10 of them are going to kill what, 6-7 orks? So 30 could cripple a mob of 30 orks. But I get 3 or 4 orks for each sterngaurd. So next turn I'm either going to shoot you to bits with the remainding 2 mobs or assault and murderize you with them.
Is there an obvious answer to this I'm not seeing?
I don't think my plague marines would be too scared of the AP3 bolters either- they're still T5 with feel no pain. The meltas, sure, but then you only get one shot. There's still going to be plague marines left next turn and they are probably going to paddle you in close combat.
Not saying Sterngaurd are crap or anything, just that the spam is less scary than advertised, to my mind.

The sternguard have deathwind launchers for a reason.

I can also drop pod interlock and prevent you from assaulting me, while still shooting at you.

The PM get a 4+ save then they die. If there are lots of PM, there probably aren't lots of vehicles so it's safe to cook off the meltaguns and fry 'em.

I am not sure why you think PM beating the sternguard in CC is a good thing. I want to lose a few marines, so I can run away and shoot you again.

tzeentchling wrote:Sternguard are great against certain armies, don't get me wrong. If they are playing against certain armies (LR spam, probably Nidzilla, possibly horde orks, etc), then they can do serious damage on the drop. Problem is, you HAVE to cripple them on the drop. When you have 30 of them, you have a slightly better chance of doing so. You also leave yourself wide open to retaliation next turn if you don't make that crippling hit.

Consider against Marines in cover. You drop and fire 60 AP3 shots. Roughly 40 will hit (note about 10 will overheat, and you lose say one Guard from each squad), about 20 will wound, and about 10 men will die. That's one full squad, or spread out damage among squads, again at the cost of 3 of your own guard. If you're firing at Plague Marines, then that's 13 wounds, 7 go through cover, 3-4 die. You could fire your combimeltas and increase that count a bit, but then your one-shot weapons are gone.

Not too bad for one round of shooting from 30 guys. But now your 30 (27) guys are within rapid-fire range of your opponent's whole army, or close enough for Marines, or easily within heavy weapon range of heavier weapons. Against Chaos, you get lashed and plasma-cannoned or Vindicatored. Again, your Sternguard aren't very tough.

Against some armies, yes, your one drop will devastate them. People who rely on LR spam, lots of Nidzillas, possibly even horde orks or something, are going to be hurting. But remember, they're still bolter weapons, and there's always some drawback - either wound on a 2+, ignore cover, or ignore 3+ armor, but odds are most models will be able to take at least one of those three to their advantage.

I guess the real question is, against those marines...if I've taken two squads down considerably, your return fire isn't going to be that impressive.

Chaos can try to lash, that's what the librarians are for. Of course the new hood is essentially worthless, but you still have it against bad players.

The real problem with lash is how I deploy my guys around my drop pods. You shouldn't be able to get everyone under the templates, and if I still have cover...it's really not that bad. Sure it's annoying, but what can you do?

If I kill your troops on the drop, and you kill my elites--fair trade. Is it an objective mission? Well good luck dropping 20 marines with 9 oblits.

Sternguard aren't tough, they're marine-tough. Sure everyone can beat on 'em. Since plasmaguns are going away in most armies, they aren't as bad off as you might think.

I think your analysis of what most models will be able to do versus the special rounds of sternguard is way off. They are built to kill everything. Not some things, everything.

Stelek wrote:I think your analysis of what most models will be able to do versus the special rounds of sternguard is way off. They are built to kill everything. Not some things, everything.

And I think you're over-estimating the effect that the sternguard will have on the drop. Like I said, they're pretty damn good, and they do have the tools to deal reasonably well with anything that comes their way, but the army is super reliant on them, and smart opponents will realize that and deal with them appropriately. Whether that's sacrificing squads to the drop or what. As I said before, it still comes down to, can you cause enough damage on the drop to significantly disrupt/destroy your opponent. Most times you can, probably, sometimes not.

On the other hand, you (Stelek) have obviously gotten to playtest the new codex for a while, I imagine, and have seen firsthand how they actually perform. I can only make conjecture based on my experience against similar units/armies/playing styles. Maybe I'm wrong! Maybe the army is absolutely devastating against everyone. It just seems to me that you're positing it as an IWIN army regardless of the opponent or the two players' tactical skills, and I disagree with that. I'm trying to point out just some reasonable counters that I'd think opponents might try to take to not be annihilated on the drop, based on my past experience, and that 30 Sternguard are not the be-all and end-all of Marine lists, and not even right in all lists.

It isn't an IWIN army.

It's simply very powerful, and because of Kill Points--it makes it difficult to include "suicide" squads or even want to sacrifice anything.

The nature of 5th changes lists and play styles.

What I'm trying to say is, don't run small amounts of sternguard. Make an army built around them instead.

Nowhere did I say it's the be-all or end-all of marine lists. There are alot of armies you can run, most of them effective, in the marine codex.

Fair enough. Didn't quite get that tone in yours and sourclam's posts before this, so thanks.

Having Drop Pods and being able to kill everything means that they win in 2 out of the 3 phases of the turn. The only phase where they don't PWN is in melee.

I agree that a strong list can be built around them.

What happens to the army when faced with another drop podding army? Or a shooty daemon list? Or an army with everything kept in reserve? (actually that would probably be better for the sternguard to deal piecemeal, although nasty tanks able to come on more than 18 inches away from said units could work, so scratch that as reliable anyway).

I think the army would suffer greatly when several of the sternguard units are forced to arrive before there are any enemy to kill.

Stelek wrote:
The sternguard have deathwind launchers for a reason.

I can also drop pod interlock and prevent you from assaulting me, while still shooting at you.

Stelek,
Based on looking at pictures of the drop pod with doors open, the guts block LOS through the vehicle for most infantry models. So are you refering to deploying the DP within 2" of each other and grouping the sternguard adjacent to the gaps and on the otherside of the enemy

BeefyG wrote:Having Drop Pods and being able to kill everything means that they win in 2 out of the 3 phases of the turn. The only phase where they don't PWN is in melee.

I agree that a strong list can be built around them.

What happens to the army when faced with another drop podding army? Or a shooty daemon list? Or an army with everything kept in reserve? (actually that would probably be better for the sternguard to deal piecemeal, although nasty tanks able to come on more than 18 inches away from said units could work, so scratch that as reliable anyway).

I think the army would suffer greatly when several of the sternguard units are forced to arrive before there are any enemy to kill.

Well there are going to be some army builds that a Sternguard centered list will have some difficulty dealing with. Dawn of War deployment can also give such an army trouble if the opponent goes second because only a fool would put anything on the board for them to shoot at.

This is not to say that the list is a bad list, just a one trick list, which is typically the story for most armies out there. The key is to make that one trick so ruthlessly effective that it becomes exceedingly difficult for your opponents to defend against it. I definitely think the mass Sternguard drop assault will be one of the more effective lists to come out of the Marine dex. Does it have weaknesses? Certainly, but it doesn't have many and those it does have are not ones that most armies will be able to capitalize on.

Stelek wrote:

Da Boss wrote:Skepticism

The sternguard have deathwind launchers for a reason.

I can also drop pod interlock and prevent you from assaulting me, while still shooting at you.

The PM get a 4+ save then they die. If there are lots of PM, there probably aren't lots of vehicles so it's safe to cook off the meltaguns and fry 'em.

I am not sure why you think PM beating the sternguard in CC is a good thing. I want to lose a few marines, so I can run away and shoot you again.

Okay, deathwind launchers. Assuming the scatter doesn't get you, they'll help the sterngaurd go from gutting a mob to obliterating it. I still don't think they're gonna do more than that, and if you split them over 3 mobs then each mob is gonna have enough left to eat you.
Pod interlocking, fair one, that's a nastly tactic. I'd want to see it in play before I say one way or another whether I could counter it effectively.

The Plague Marines T5 and 4+ save is better than what a lot of people are gonna get. 900 points of plague marines could take 900 points of sterngaurd I reckon, but I suppose I'll wait and see.

wyomingfox wrote:

Stelek wrote:
The sternguard have deathwind launchers for a reason.

I can also drop pod interlock and prevent you from assaulting me, while still shooting at you.

Stelek,
Based on looking at pictures of the drop pod with doors open, the guts block LOS through the vehicle for most infantry models. So are you refering to deploying the DP within 2" of each other and grouping the sternguard adjacent to the gaps and on the otherside of the enemy

All I have to be able to see is any part of you from the eyes of the models I'm bringing.

It really is not difficult to deploy and draw LOS for 2 guys on the backend.

If I'm deploying entirely on the far side of it, it's still not difficult--the doors when dropped don't block LOS, so I put the Librarian in the worst LOS blocking spot and pile the sternguard on other side of him.

ihockert wrote:

BeefyG wrote:Having Drop Pods and being able to kill everything means that they win in 2 out of the 3 phases of the turn. The only phase where they don't PWN is in melee.

I agree that a strong list can be built around them.

What happens to the army when faced with another drop podding army? Or a shooty daemon list? Or an army with everything kept in reserve? (actually that would probably be better for the sternguard to deal piecemeal, although nasty tanks able to come on more than 18 inches away from said units could work, so scratch that as reliable anyway).

I think the army would suffer greatly when several of the sternguard units are forced to arrive before there are any enemy to kill.

Well there are going to be some army builds that a Sternguard centered list will have some difficulty dealing with. Dawn of War deployment can also give such an army trouble if the opponent goes second because only a fool would put anything on the board for them to shoot at.

This is not to say that the list is a bad list, just a one trick list, which is typically the story for most armies out there. The key is to make that one trick so ruthlessly effective that it becomes exceedingly difficult for your opponents to defend against it. I definitely think the mass Sternguard drop assault will be one of the more effective lists to come out of the Marine dex. Does it have weaknesses? Certainly, but it doesn't have many and those it does have are not ones that most armies will be able to capitalize on.

Actually one of the best tactics for 5th edition (that most players refuse to learn and use) is to deploy nothing on the table, no matter what.

You never HAVE to deploy unless a stupid ard boyz scenario says so.

That does hurt Sternguard, but you can if you wish run more drop pod units (increasing your kill point count) so the sternguard can drop in entirely in the second wave.

I believe that's what people will do in the second phase evolution of this list, when people start keeping their army in reserve against sternguard.

Da Boss wrote:

Stelek wrote:

Da Boss wrote:Skepticism

The sternguard have deathwind launchers for a reason.

I can also drop pod interlock and prevent you from assaulting me, while still shooting at you.

The PM get a 4+ save then they die. If there are lots of PM, there probably aren't lots of vehicles so it's safe to cook off the meltaguns and fry 'em.

I am not sure why you think PM beating the sternguard in CC is a good thing. I want to lose a few marines, so I can run away and shoot you again.

Okay, deathwind launchers. Assuming the scatter doesn't get you, they'll help the sterngaurd go from gutting a mob to obliterating it. I still don't think they're gonna do more than that, and if you split them over 3 mobs then each mob is gonna have enough left to eat you.
Pod interlocking, fair one, that's a nastly tactic. I'd want to see it in play before I say one way or another whether I could counter it effectively.

The Plague Marines T5 and 4+ save is better than what a lot of people are gonna get. 900 points of plague marines could take 900 points of sterngaurd I reckon, but I suppose I'll wait and see.

Orks have a hard time 'eating' Sternguard. The sternguard units (pod, sternguard shooting, sternguard CC) do alot of damage to Orks.

If you don't kill them, odds are they'll hit and run successfully--and then whatever you have left, is dead.

Without templates (I did run two heavy flamers and two combi-flamers, and found them only useful against Orks AND they forced me to be TOO aggressive with my very expensive troops...so I dropped them) sternguard do alot of damage to Orks. Making it worse is this simple fact:

You cannot start the Ork horde in reserve, you will NEVER win objective games with the footsloggers that way.

So, you start on the board.

Since you know the Sternguard can light you up, you don't deploy inside terrain (it limits your mobility so why do it?).

Then the marine player drops a tactical squad or suicide assault squad flamer unit and keeps his sternguard off table for a 2nd turn drop.

It's a serious pain for Orks, because then you better have a KFF to protect against tactical squads who will do the same damage as the sternguard do.

See, the marines can decide what is going in their first wave WHEN THEY DROP. Not when they deploy!

That is what makes them so damn deadly.

Oh and if you really want to kick people when they're down, use speeders with heavy flamers and multimeltas. They are excellent 2nd wave support choices for sternguard.

Pricey, but boy do they light everybody up.

tzeentchling wrote:Fair enough. Didn't quite get that tone in yours and sourclam's posts before this, so thanks.

The original question was whether Sternguard were worth their points. The consensus seemed to be 'yes', but then it all shifted to a 'yes, but only take 5 of them and put em in a Razorback'. That's about the time it got heated... they're worth the points when you dump 30 of them onto the table, not 5. It's not an auto-win list, of course, but it's a very powerful list and will rewind a lot of the disdain for mediocre marines in my opinon.

Stelek wrote:I swear you don't play the same game the rest of us do.

He doesn't. Ask how many games he's played in the last 3 months and compare that to what you probably play in a week.

I'm afraid to ask.

I've found that it's the same for certain posters here and elsewhere who love to rail on about how perceived terrible units are somehow great, or how perceived good units are somehow actually terrible.

They hardly ever play the games they discuss so frequently.

It's generally easy enough to spot the good and bad units. I mean, math hammer works.

Stelek: Your point about the drop army is fine and all, but wouldn't 1.5xTactical marines do the job better than the sterngaurd?
(My argument is that Sterngaurd are not really that effective versus ork hordes compared to other things in the codex. They look to me to be very effective versus MEQs and with MEQs making up close to half the total armies in 40K, that's not nothing)

Their only good bit vs. Orks is that they can ignore cover saves, so each wound is a kill.

Though I'm generally with you on this against Orks. From the looks of what I can see they're killing about 7 Orks on the drop with Rapid fire when they can ignore cover. That's not nearly enough Boyz who will shred these guys with retaliatory fire and then charge (if you're not using this pod trick).

When charged these guys each have 2 Attacks and go before the Orks, but even if there's still 10 of them left before the assault (not likely) they're only killing 5 more Boyz before all the Orks attacks come in.

I guess that's why Stelek is saying you need the Deathwind Launcher vs. Orks, but still, if I recall my lists before I stopped playing 40k I had 4 or so squads of 30 Boyz, and that was before 5th ed makes you want to take more regular Boyz (and obligatory Lootas).

Still, I've played disparately few games of 5th Ed so I could be off base with this or I could be missing something so please take all this with a grain of salt.

EDIT: I missed the "wound on a 2+ round", which should kill a ton of Orks if they can't get cover saves. Still, it would hurt a single mob of Boyz, who will still have guys around to strike back against the Sternguard.

This thread makes me want to play the Sterngaurd force the lads are describing because I'm far from sure of my stance.

While 5 sternguard is definitely not going to do much [anyone read October's White Dwarf battle reports?], I think 9, in a drop pod with a librarian with the gate power dropping behind the enemy and wreaking havoc and then teleporting away when they move to counter sounds VERY effective.

This aside, though, how can anyone NOT see how AMAZING the sternguard are?

10 terminators with 2 cyclone missle launchers: "OH crap, a C'tan!"

10 Sternguard, no upgrades: "psht... *snicker*.. *boom*"

I played an apocalypse game where I was forced to watch one 250 point unit of 10 guys decimate Zarakynel, the uber greater daemon lord of Slaanesh, because she's T8 and has a 4+ save. There's nothing these guys can't kill.

Someone said that combi-meltas cost you an extra 50 points. Screw that, I wouldn't take 10. I'm bound to lose a few guys to shooting and I'd rather it be guys I didn't pay more than I had to for. There isn't much that won't die to 6 or 7 meltaguns, or just to keep the points nice and pretty, drop a single veteran [9-man squad] to give 5 guys combi-melta.

Honestly, though, I would invest in a heavy flamer. The special ammo is nice and all, but the ability to, in most situations, hit 7 or so models, wound on a 2+/3+, and VERY often ignore their save sounds too good to pass up.

And someone complained about their cc ability? Perhaps you are not aware that just about every cc unit has only 2 attacks? Assault marines and raptors have 2 attacks. Howling Banshees have 2 attacks. Seer councils have 2 attacks. New chaos marines were thought to be somewhat decent because each guy carries a weapon rack around with him, making each one able to shoot with the best of them while still being, effectively, an assault marine in close combat.

Now here we are with sternguard, who many are saying should stick with bolters because "in 5th edition volume, not strength of fire is what matters" and claim that with enough S4 shots the enemy will fail cover/armour saves anyway - so what's the problem with lots of S4 attacks in hth? And the fact that such a thing is on such a powerful shooty unit just makes them EVEN BETTER.

sourclams wrote: Sternguard also-also can shoot to pieces three monstrous creatures on drop. Sternguard also-also-also can blow away the three squads in the middle of the table and now your enemy is forced to choose between killing Sternguard and meeting the other 1100 points of marines pounding up from the deployment zone. Sternguard aren't standing around with their ceramite thumbs up their fundaments setting up their guns while they get ripped apart.

Kinda makes the case to spend the 25 pts for the extended carapace for your HQ and heavy TMC. In that scenario, sternguard cause only 1.85 wounds per 10 man unit instead of 3.7 wounds. Also helps against pesky snipers (except on the rare occasion they rend). I also see it as another reason why DS warriors (again give them the EC and keep them screened or in cover) become a more viable replacement for elite fexes as they can withstand the sternguard 2+ wound pummeling a scad better (I believe that the 2+ rounds are still AP 5 right?)

I am thinking that against hordey orks, the trick might be to drop those Sternguard right behind their lootas and let the rest of your army worry about the boyz. Even without deathwind or whatnot, three 9-10 Sternguard aught to butcher three 15 boy loota mobs, probably knocking them down to 6-7 models a peice. The lootas, assuming they make their morale check (iffy) might have a scary bit of return fire, but probably not in the volume required to wipe the SG. That leaves the SG to kill all the lootas next turn, for a fairly happy ending.
What does the ork player do otherwise? Turn a unit of boyz around to deal with the threat? Send back a biker boss? I don't know.

Now, I am assuming that horde orks run max lootas these days... I don't know that for certain, but since SG are just as good at popping tanks, redirecting 1 unit of SG to kill a battle wagon while the other two busy themselves with lootas or something still sounds ok.

6-7 lootas give a scary return fire? really?

6-18 shots?

2-6 hit?

2-5/6 wound, meaning 0-2 dead marines according to the odds?

I can handle that, I think.

Allow me to repeat myself, since you didn't fully comprehend what I typed the first time...

The lootas, assuming they make their morale check (iffy) might have a scary bit of return fire, but probably not in the volume required to wipe the SG.

Bold added for emphasis.

Go go Gadget Reading Comprehension!

The reason Sternguard are so scary versus Orks is not the first turn drop.

It's the librarian teleporting the squad away, and then the deathwind launchers firing at you.

Guess who's stuck in a cluster and is going to take it in the shorts?

Yes, you green fellas are about to have a bad day.

I'm stupid. Sorry. It took this long to occur to me that while Sterngaurd are not the most points efficient way to mess up orks, they can still do it, (with some help) and will remain effective against everyone else while doing it. They're the rare decent against hordes and MEQ unit.

Stelek wrote:The reason Sternguard are so scary versus Orks is not the first turn drop.

It's the librarian teleporting the squad away, and then the deathwind launchers firing at you.

Guess who's stuck in a cluster and is going to take it in the shorts?

Yes, you green fellas are about to have a bad day.

While not a guaranteed solution, depending on placement isn't it fairly easy to get away from deathwinds? They've only got 12" range. That's clear-able with a turn of running, if you get lucky. Easily done if the drop pod happens to scatter away far enough.

Granted you can be a meanie and drop them on objectives, or wherever you know the orks HAVE to go. teehee. Man, the trouble that 2 or 3 of those could cause landing near my OWN gunline - ensuring that as someone's advancing they take 3 templates, right before they charge they're taking 3 templates, and everytime they wipe out a unit they're taking 3 more templates.

Oh glorious day. New space marines, I hate you so much ><

I'd run 10 men squads in drop pods, all with combi-meltas, and combat squadded if necessary. Very pricey but also very scary.

Sternguards attract alot of firepower once the opposing player figures out that they are the main factor thats kicking their @$$. If you can keep them safe they will make their points back 4 times over. oh and never run them without bolters.

I just faced an 11 man sternguard squad that droppodded in on a 30 man shoota boyz squad in cover. The sternguard opened up with bolters and a flamer and killed 8 boyz. On my turn I shot then assaulted the squad. The sternguard died in 2 rounds of combat.

I was not very impressed with sternguard in drop pods.

Darrian13 wrote:I just faced an 11 man sternguard squad that droppodded in on a 30 man shoota boyz squad in cover. The sternguard opened up with bolters and a flamer and killed 8 boyz. On my turn I shot then assaulted the squad. The sternguard died in 2 rounds of combat.

I was not very impressed with sternguard in drop pods.

How did the Sternguard player manage to get charged after one round of shooting?

One would assume that the drop pod didn't scatter and that his rapid fire of dragonfire bolts didn't squish enough Orks in cover.

The speed freaks would actually be a decent army to table these guys but how many speed freaks armies do you see around?

@MarvinGayIsMyDaddy, Pakman has it right. They dropped in about 7 inches away from my boyz.

Darrian13 wrote:I just faced an 11 man sternguard squad that droppodded in on a 30 man shoota boyz squad in cover. The sternguard opened up with bolters and a flamer and killed 8 boyz. On my turn I shot then assaulted the squad. The sternguard died in 2 rounds of combat.

I was not very impressed with sternguard in drop pods.

add a few more combi-flamers and/or a heavy flamer and you might be. Bring em in a vulkan army and its even better.

How come 22 bolter shots only killed 8 boys? The flamer only did 1 kill? Someone forgot the no cover save bolter shots.

Sternguard a nice, but not a magic solution.

You could have success against orks, but even against the massed boyz list it is very touch and go.

Meanwhile Stormboy and Warbiker heavy lists will close the range too fast and offer you your own heads.

Ultimately put your faith in tacticals, and keep Sternguard to cover the gaps.

Sternguard can dish out serious damage when they appear with all those combi-meltas or -flamers. But they need to be backed up, say by a Librarian with gate of infinity.

scuddman wrote:How come 22 bolter shots only killed 8 boys? The flamer only did 1 kill? Someone forgot the no cover save bolter shots.

That is about statistically correct: 22 shots at 66% to hit = 14.66 wounds at 50% chance to wound = 7.33 wounds with no cover save. At 5" away, you are not gonna get as many hits with the flamer and you still wound on 4+.

Can't have 11 sternguard so i assume 1 was an IC of some sort. Anyways for 10 sternguard vs orks in cover

Hellfire
20 x 2/3 hit x 5/6 wound x 1/2 failed cover save = 6.11 kills

Dragonfire
20 X 2/3 hit x 1/2 wound = 6.67 kills

Neither is stunning, which is why you better have the Librarian and/or combi-flamer or heavy flamer if you intend to do anything versus orks.

Deathwind isn't a good choice IMHO. Can't shoot it after the drop, so isn't going to do much of anything to the orks bearing down on the squad unless they can survive to teleport out.

winterman wrote:Deathwind isn't a good choice IMHO. Can't shoot it after the drop, so isn't going to do much of anything to the orks bearing down on the squad unless they can survive to teleport out.

I believe the plan for those is to bring the pain once the Librarian has teleported the squad out.

Orks assault the Sternguard unit.
Combat is resolved.
Libarian telports the squad out.
Orks are all squished together per the CC rules.
Deathwind templates hit more models than they normally would, softening up the squad further for...
Sternguard returning to open fire again.

Can't have 11 sternguard so i assume 1 was an IC of some sort. Anyways for 10 sternguard vs orks in cover

Hellfire
20 x 2/3 hit x 5/6 wound x 1/2 failed cover save = 6.11 kills

Dragonfire
20 X 2/3 hit x 1/2 wound = 6.67 kills

Neither is stunning, which is why you better have the Librarian and/or combi-flamer or heavy flamer if you intend to do anything versus orks.

One of the advantages of Drop Pods (and Deepstrike in general) is being able to land and fire from an angle where the enemy won't be getting a cover save. 12 dead Orks per Sternguard unit on the drop is not something to be shrugged off.

One of the advantages of Drop Pods (and Deepstrike in general) is being able to land and fire from an angle where the enemy won't be getting a cover save. 12 dead Orks per Sternguard unit on the drop is not something to be shrugged off.

How can you get an angle on a unit with half in area terrain? Answer is you can't. Not saying it is easy to get all your orks into cover either, but if you are gonna math hammer, it is best to look at worse case senarios imho.

And lets say they are not in cover. 10 sterngaurd w/ null zone/gate librarian (seems to be the favored option)

expectations:
10 sterngaurd kill 11.11 with hellfire rounds, Lib kills 0.11 w/ bolt pistol.

Next turn mob has 18 shootas and a nob (erring on side of orks a bit), they shoot before the charge killing 2.05,

In assault Lib kills 0.75 of an ork and the remaining 8 sterngaurd kill 3.33. Orks return with 14*3 basic attacks and 4 klaw attacks and kill another 5 marines.

So on average that Lib will only have about 3 marines to port outta there next turn and the orks are at around 14-15. Not a big return on the 385 point minium investment. That does assume no other units are available to support the orks (and vice versa).

I'm not saying sternguard suck, as I agree they rock. What I am saying is that sterngaurd sans flamer should not be thrown willy nilly at a mob of orks expecting the special rounds to clean up. Throw even one flamer or heavy flamer into the mix and the advantage shifts to the sternguard. Take Vulkan (as I'll be doing for awhile anyways) and it gets even more sick.

HTH