Bell of Lost Souls wrote:We love to pass on on all the little tidbits we hear and here are some of the latest. We have recieved news that the GW 40k/WFB schedule is shaping up for Q1-Q2 2009 as follows:

JANUARY:
2nd wave Orks
Plastic Gretchin, Stormboys, Nobz, plastic Battlewagon.

FEBRUARY:
Lizardmen
Plastic Stegadon to be availiable as a rare, special and mount option. Up to nine said to fieldable in one list. New kroxigors.

MARCH:
Apocalypse
Stompa and one or more Baneblade variants (Stormlord and/or Shadowsword, possibly others).

APRIL-MAY:
Imperial Guard
Plastic Stormtroopers, Valkyrie, Russ variants, more.
2nd Wave Daemons
Plastic Daemon Prince, new Seekers, rest of the named Daemons, possibly generic daemons and a Battleforce

Q3-Q4:
Necrons
All the stuff reported here.

Dark Eldar
New range by Jes Goodwin, Codex by Phil Kelley. End of the year, possibly bumped even later to make sure the army is done correctly.

And More...

~There is great uncertainty as to the exact timing of these releases as we get into the Q3-Q4 timeframes, and the Apocalypse release slot is still full of uncertainty as to what the Baneblade variant(s) will be. While the 40k codex releases are thin between now and IG (reported to give plenty of time for the marine releases to sink in) the back half of 2009 is said to be stuffed to the gills with releases for both 40k and Fantasy. Standard caveats apply folks, have at it.

So, if BoLS is right, it looks like my wallet is going to be taking one hell of a beating in March and April for the (plastic) Shadowsword Baneblade variant and multiple (plastic) Valkyries.

Valkyrie might be a Summer release for Planet Strike, which is strangely absent from this list for some reason.

edit.

Only new super-heavy I heard of would be the Stormlord super-heavy transport, no word on other variants.

2H is kind of soft & squishy, but one can easily imagine Planetstrike in Q3.

Thank god Phil Kelly is writing the DE codex.

A plastic stegadon? Really?? Looks like my Orks are gonna get a herd of Squiggoths! I'll have to make some little shovels and convert some pooper-scooper-grots!

warpcrafter wrote:A plastic stegadon? Really?? Looks like my Orks are gonna get a herd of Squiggoths! I'll have to make some little shovels and convert some pooper-scooper-grots!

There are shovels on the IG vehicle sprue.

derek wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:A plastic stegadon? Really?? Looks like my Orks are gonna get a herd of Squiggoths! I'll have to make some little shovels and convert some pooper-scooper-grots!

There are shovels on the IG vehicle sprue.

And on cadian heavy weapon sprue.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
FEBRUARY:
Lizardmen
Plastic Stegadon to be availiable as a rare, special and mount option. Up to nine said to fieldable in one list. New kroxigors.

Unless they are massively toning down the stegadon (I hope not) this must be a fan boi's wet dream.

Generic daemons eh? Can't say CSMs are being ignored.

Hmm? We don't want generic daemons though. We want actual daemons, not the instruments of blandulon we have now.

blinky wrote:We want actual daemons.

But wouldn't that cost you your soul?!

Damn, I bartered that long ago...

I hope in the "and more" section is a SW codex...but I guess that is wishful thinking isn't it. Oh well, nice to see DE are getting a mention and not left behind.

Plastic stormtroopers might get me to buy more 40k. But most likely I'll buy
a unit, assemble it, and forget all about it.

Hmmm... a plastic Valk kit should be alot of fun if done right. Why do I feel like DE aren't the right choice for an upcoming Codex yet... didn't they redo DE not that long ago?

Prometheum5 wrote:Hmmm... a plastic Valk kit should be alot of fun if done right. Why do I feel like DE aren't the right choice for an upcoming Codex yet... didn't they redo DE not that long ago?

If not that long ago was 3rd edition, then sure.

Really? Am I just going crazy? I thought DE were being updated mid-4th right as I gave up on 40K the first time... it was after they did normal Eldar.

Am I absolutely making this up?

You are, yes. They've had no releases since they came out.

Hmmm... wonder what the heck I'm thinking of then. Oh well, carry on.

Better be Wolves next year. That is all. I don't care when. But it better be in 2009.

Plastic Plaguebearers I can understand (Although I'm still considering buying some...that release is a ways off)
What's wrong with the current Horrors though? I like the models.

Plastic Generic Daemons - the release no one is asking for?

AgeOfEgos wrote:What's wrong with the current Horrors though?

They're metal.

Nice to see some confirmation of IG and a Valkyrie in the spring/summer. This will be an important release for GW if they hope to get me to buy back in.

So since the other daemons reverted back to old designs, can we expect Pink Horrors to become silly-expressioned heads with legs and big gangly arms that flip the bird?

6 units of Gretchin with Cybork Body here I come!

So SW go from possible 1st Q to not going to happen in the forseeable future...oldest dex remians oldest...at least there is some consistancy

I said it before...I'm not wasting points for generic daemons in a CSM army. I've got way better choices, even plain troops that are better options than the generic daemon crap.

Still a year to wait on a new DE codex. That I can live with, if the rumour is right.

I'm really just looking forward to the guard stuff at this point. I have a marine army but I haven't touched it in years and don't expect to get back to it. Maybe some of the new demons might be cool though...

Is the SW Dex really older than the Dark Eldar one?

I really, really hope that those plastic Valkyries will be released sometime next year, otherwise my Elysians will never go air mobile.

Is the SW Dex really older than the Dark Eldar one?

Yep, Dark Eldar got a 3rd edition rewrite long after codex SW came out.

Infact, I believe that Dark Angels also had rewrite, giving DA and DE two 3rd edition codices. Once DE and IG get thier codex, SW will be the last man standing .

wyomingfox wrote:

Is the SW Dex really older than the Dark Eldar one?

Yep, Dark Eldar got a 3rd edition rewrite long after codex SW came out.

Infact, I believe that Dark Angels also had rewrite, giving DA and DE two 3rd edition codices. Once DE and IG get thier codex, SW will be the last man standing .

DH/WH were 3rd also.

derek wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

Is the SW Dex really older than the Dark Eldar one?

Yep, Dark Eldar got a 3rd edition rewrite long after codex SW came out.

Infact, I believe that Dark Angels also had rewrite, giving DA and DE two 3rd edition codices. Once DE and IG get thier codex, SW will be the last man standing .

DH/WH were 3rd also.

Yep, and since we've heard nothing about any ordos armies, it's a forgone conclusion they won't be happening any time soon.

Don't forget Daemon and Witch Hunters. Not as old as the Spase Puppies, but still 3rd Ed.

Plastic Valkyries! Maybe its time to bust out the rules for D-99 drop troops from forge world...

Hmmm.
Yes, lets have more armies in 40k than the dev team can give timely support to.

Lots of choice is good.But not if it means appx 1/3 of possible player choices are left 2 editions behind!

Plastic Stegadon to be availiable as a rare, special and mount option. Up to nine said to fieldable in one list. New kroxigors.

someone tell me this crap aint true.
9 per army? its a piss take, they will have the stats of a bloody terradon with no wings.
plastic steggy = great idea
9 per army = low points, screwed up stats and possibly a great model for them.

so once again, could be another amazing looking model, but with crap stats, like 70% of the new stuff. (or the other way round)

Unless they do it like the Carnifex...

XXX points spent on the Stegadon makes it Rare, under XXX makes it special.

Mount for whatever?

Wehrkind wrote:Don't forget Daemon and Witch Hunters. Not as old as the Spase Puppies, but still 3rd Ed.

Technically you are right, but WH and DH are 4rth edition codices at heart, having come out just prior to the release of 4rth's core rulebook... Though I had forgotten that necrons had a 3rd edition codex as well, but it looks like they too shall have a nice shiny new codex before my beloved Space WOLVES.

JD21290 wrote:

Plastic Stegadon to be availiable as a rare, special and mount option. Up to nine said to fieldable in one list. New kroxigors.

someone tell me this crap aint true.
9 per army? its a piss take, they will have the stats of a bloody terradon with no wings.
plastic steggy = great idea
9 per army = low points, screwed up stats and possibly a great model for them.

so once again, could be another amazing looking model, but with crap stats, like 70% of the new stuff. (or the other way round)

I seriously doubt that they will underpower it. With the way fantasy armies have been going recently, it's likely to be excessively brutal and join the ranks of VE and Daemons in the "Mike Tyson vs. Little Jimmy" category when put up against older armies.

wyomingfox wrote:

Is the SW Dex really older than the Dark Eldar one?

Yep, Dark Eldar got a 3rd edition rewrite long after codex SW came out.

Infact, I believe that Dark Angels also had rewrite, giving DA and DE two 3rd edition codices. Once DE and IG get thier codex, SW will be the last man standing .

DE didn't have a re-write. Same book, with typos corrected is all, back when GW tried to make us care when they fixed the typos. The DE codex is effectively the same book published in 1998 while SW are from 2000. Re-writes are where rules are substantially altered not when corrections are made.

The SW codex is written in part referentially to the Space Marine codex, meaning every time a new codex Space Marine is written SW rules are adjusted to minimal degree. By that indirect action SW have seen more changes and updates than DE.

wyomingfox wrote:Technically you are right, but WH and DH are 4rth edition codices at heart, having come out just prior to the release of 4rth's core rulebook... Though I had forgotten that necrons had a 3rd edition codex as well, but it looks like they too shall have a nice shiny new codex before my beloved Space WOLVES.

When you stop and look at most of the codices, a substantial number of them are intended for both 3rd and 4th or 4th and 5th. These transitional periods seem to always get people flustered over the unintended impact on their codex from the updated core rules. I don't think it really maters how old a codex is as long as its playable and fun. The DE codex still is a good book, it shows its age but is still pretty playable; its really the DE miniatures that need the update more than the book. I wouldn't doubt the SW will get redone, but with the basic marines constantly being taken care of, even you have to admit more marine stuff isn't necessary.

They rewrote the DE book. I remember when Witches did not get invulnerable saves in HtH, and Witch Weapons did all kinds of different and freaky things instead of the generic effect they have now.

Aduro wrote:They rewrote the DE book. I remember when Witches did not get invulnerable saves in HtH, and Witch Weapons did all kinds of different and freaky things instead of the generic effect they have now.

I guess you're right if taking out rules and re-releasing a book without any additional miniatures counts as an update.

aka_mythos wrote:DE didn't have a re-write. Same book, with typos corrected is all, back when GW tried to make us care when they fixed the typos. The DE codex is effectively the same book published in 1998 while SW are from 2000. Re-writes are where rules are substantially altered not when corrections are made.

The SW codex is written in part referentially to the Space Marine codex, meaning every time a new codex Space Marine is written SW rules are adjusted to minimal degree. By that indirect action SW have seen more changes and updates than DE.

So the SW army, noticeably more popular than the DE range, requires me to purchase two books to play, making it more expensive than ANY other army in the game. Hmmm?

And the DE rerelease did more than fix typos. So, considering that the SW are the ONLY army requiring two books, and that flies against the intention of the company, I'd say they should be, by your logic, the most important redo, barring a major FAQ. Which isn't coming.

aka_mythos wrote:When you stop and look at most of the codices, a substantial number of them are intended for both 3rd and 4th or 4th and 5th. These transitional periods seem to always get people flustered over the unintended impact on their codex from the updated core rules. I don't think it really maters how old a codex is as long as its playable and fun. The DE codex still is a good book, it shows its age but is still pretty playable; its really the DE miniatures that need the update more than the book. I wouldn't doubt the SW will get redone, but with the basic marines constantly being taken care of, even you have to admit more marine stuff isn't necessary.

It's not more Marine stuff to me. It's the Space Wolves. The first ever Codex supplement. Still one of the most popular armies in the game. So it's not just more Marines. Just as the DE aren't just more "Eldar".

nope.

G

Not only that, but the SW dex was intended to work with the 3rd ed. SM dex, not the 4th, and definitely not the 5th. I won't use my Wolves until they get at least a White Dwarf or a pretty extensive FAQ.

I may be overreacting though, as I do not have the new SM dex and everything may work out just peachy.

Alas, my poor SW will continue to sit on the shelf and dream of drop pods.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Unless they are massively toning down the stegadon (I hope not) this must be a fan boi's wet dream.

Probably, it'll be as broken as the current High Elf Dragons - not very broken at all.

Raxor wrote:Generic daemons eh? Can't say CSMs are being ignored.

It's a pity that I just bought some Daemons to field as generics - if GW had generic models at the current plastic Daemon price point (10 for $22), I'd have bought them instead. I'm hoping for WFB Furies as the CSM generics.

Prometheum5 wrote:Hmmm... a plastic Valk kit should be alot of fun if done right.

Why do I feel like DE aren't the right choice for an upcoming Codex yet... didn't they redo DE not that long ago?

If done right, that plastic Valk will support a very inexpensive (relatively speaking) FW mixed-resin Vulture gunship in the same way as the FW Arkaturion (sp?) Baneblade variants.

redstripe wrote:Nice to see some confirmation of IG and a Valkyrie in the spring/summer. This will be an important release for GW if they hope to get me to buy back in.

IG got a lot of love for Armageddon with the armor specials. As I'm really heavily invested in metals, plastic Storms don't do much for me. But oohhh, how I want that plastic Valk!

So I'm not crazy? There was a DE release?

Space Wolves were my first 40k army... but I still consider the Dark Eldar codex to be 'older'. The revision brought them up to date, sort of, but changed little.

wyomingfox wrote:So SW go from possible 1st Q to not going to happen in the forseeable future...oldest dex remians oldest...at least there is some consistancy

Oldest 'dex = Codex Dark Eldar. If you claim it's a newer codex because of the 'update' it got then I can claim that Codex Space Wolves is newer because it uses the new Codex Space Marines instead of the old one.

Space Wolves are actually never getting any kind of revamp. Not only do their miniatures continue to outsell virtually all other lines, Jervis is considering legalizing the second edition ruleset in an attempt to sell more of the plastic terminators and the new Techmarine models.

dienekes96 wrote:So the SW army, noticeably more popular than the DE range, requires me to purchase two books to play, making it more expensive than ANY other army in the game. Hmmm?

And the DE rerelease did more than fix typos. So, considering that the SW are the ONLY army requiring two books, and that flies against the intention of the company, I'd say they should be, by your logic, the most important redo, barring a major FAQ. Which isn't coming.

The DE codex did not receive a substantial change from the supposed update, much of it is identical to the original book. As I said its more the miniatures that need the update then the rules. The viability of DE has been far more diminished by the edition change while with the space wolves they've only been diminished with respect to the 5th ed Codex Space Marine.

All I can say to the fact you have to have two books is, it beats what happened to the Eye of Terror armies. What you say though points out the need of DE over SW, in that the SW could be solved with a FAQ, DE can't.

dienekes96 wrote:It's not more Marine stuff to me. It's the Space Wolves. The first ever Codex supplement. Still one of the most popular armies in the game. So it's not just more Marines. Just as the DE aren't just more "Eldar".

The reason they are just more marines is that regardless of any update or change the SW might get, chance are those will only be some additional variation of a unit that already exists in Codex Space Marines and that rather than any substantially unique miniatures they are likely to be add on parts to go with the current marine miniatures. From the rules perspective all that's going to happen is your units stats and prices will be brought in line with the current Marine codex, you'll get variation on some of their special rules, and some new units might be carried over.

The DE unlike the SW do not have the luxury of using vehicles and models from another army. Every time the marines recieved a new dreadnought, rhino, landraider, or land speeder the SW benefited from the new model. DE have seen nothing except the very limited update to their original book.

About purchasing two books for Space Wolves, it's really just one anymore. Ever since the SW codex went out of stock GW will send you a black and white pdf of it if you email them.

aka_mythos wrote:The DE codex did not receive a substantial change from the supposed update, much of it is identical to the original book. As I said its more the miniatures that need the update then the rules. The viability of DE has been far more diminished by the edition change while with the space wolves they've only been diminished with respect to the 5th ed Codex Space Marine.

Substantial is a judgement call. You initially stated they ONLY fixed typos, which was not accurate. So I was clarifying that point. While also pointing out that I understand the fundamental DE line is older, it still does NOT break GW's rule of one book = one army. Only one army does that.

aka_mythos wrote:All I can say to the fact you have to have two books is, it beats what happened to the Eye of Terror armies. What you say though points out the need of DE over SW, in that the SW could be solved with a FAQ, DE can't.

Fortunately for me, my army is the 13th Company, so I need THREE books to play that one. But I didn't bring that up because the 13th doesn't really exist in that form anymore. And the point about having two books isn't a gripe...I have money. It's the fact that it does not meet GW's stated goal, whereas every other Codex does. So I'd argue that it is the book most in need of revision, being the second oldest and single least compliant army list.

aka_mythos wrote:The reason they are just more marines is that regardless of any update or change the SW might get, chance are those will only be some additional variation of a unit that already exists in Codex Space Marines and that rather than any substantially unique miniatures they are likely to be add on parts to go with the current marine miniatures. From the rules perspective all that's going to happen is your units stats and prices will be brought in line with the current Marine codex, you'll get variation on some of their special rules, and some new units might be carried over.

That is speculation. And probably incorrect, based on the fundamental changes they made to Vanilla marines.

aka_mythos wrote:The DE unlike the SW do not have the luxury of using vehicles and models from another army. Every time the marines recieved a new dreadnought, rhino, landraider, or land speeder the SW benefited from the new model. DE have seen nothing except the very limited update to their original book.

Then it sucks for all five of the DE players. I specifically chose an army allowing me maximum utility through the model ranges GW produces. As you eloquently pointed out, this is about models, not rules. I know new Wolf Models exist, and I want them. Since the SW is so easy of a redo (since it's just the SM book rejiggered, according to you), they should pop them out first. Low risk, high reward...unlike the DE.

Ghaz wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:So SW go from possible 1st Q to not going to happen in the forseeable future...oldest dex remians oldest...at least there is some consistancy

Oldest 'dex = Codex Dark Eldar. If you claim it's a newer codex because of the 'update' it got then I can claim that Codex Space Wolves is newer because it uses the new Codex Space Marines instead of the old one.

Don't call it an update: There was changes to wyches and hellglaves with the 4+ invulnerable CC save, enemies WS reduced by 1/2. Your archon got a 2+ invulnerable. You could field a wych army. You got a bunch of new rules for your wargear and vehicles. You got about as much out of your update as Tau got our of thier new codex.

The SW codex is written in part referentially to the Space Marine codex, meaning every time a new codex Space Marine is written SW rules are adjusted to minimal degree. By that indirect action SW have seen more changes and updates than DE.

Our vehicles and some of our wargear has changed, but not the core selections and weapon choices of our infantry units.

I wouldn't doubt the SW will get redone, but with the basic marines constantly being taken care of, even you have to admit more marine stuff isn't necessary.

What I will agree with is that Smurfs didn't need a 5th edition dex and shouldn't have got one untill all the 3rd edition dexes were updated . That is all I will agree with.

aka_mythos wrote:Every time the marines recieved a new dreadnought, rhino, landraider, or land speeder the SW benefited from the new model. DE have seen nothing except the very limited update to their original book.

No Smurfs benefited from our Venerable Dreadnought, we already had one in 3rd. Vehicles for which we have an entry will get updated, but as it stands, we will not get the new LRR, the thunderfire cannon, or the Ironside Dread. Some of our wargear will get updated, but the main thing for me is the non-vehicle models. Our troops, our HQ, our wolfguard, our scouts, and our assualt and bike squads.

wyomingfox wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Every time the marines recieved a new dreadnought, rhino, landraider, or land speeder the SW benefited from the new model. DE have seen nothing except the very limited update to their original book.

No Smurfs benefited from our Venerable Dreadnought, we already had one in 3rd. Vehicles for which we have an entry will get updated, but as it stands, we will not get the new LRR, the thunderfire cannon, or the Ironside Dread. Some of our wargear will get updated, but the main thing for me is the non-vehicle models. Our troops, our HQ, our wolfguard, our scouts, and our assualt and bike squads.

You do get the new Land Raider, and Dreadnought though. All of the variant and options for Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Predators, Vindicators, and Whirlwinds(which you get the better version of now as well) are chosen from the main Space Marine book except for the Venerable dreadnought which is still taken from Codex Space Wolves. It's in the FAQ.

And Space Wolves got almost as much from the new Space Marine codex. A single page that was initially posted in White Dwarf does not make a new codex.

Thanks Derek, I stand pleasantly corrected . I also noted no 0-1 restriction for LRC .

What happened?
Did I miss something?

How did this thread go from a "product release schedule update" thread to a "whining about Space Wolves" thread?
Did I miss something in JHDD's initial post?

Eric

I think that's my fault.

I simply stated that the Wolves should be in 2009. I didn't care when. I don't want to push any of the other releases. I just want Wolves in 2009.

It spiraled out from there. So I'll take ownership.

And I'll reiterate...I want the Wolves to be released in 2009. Not in place of the DE, mind you. But if they replaced IG or Necrons, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

MagickalMemories wrote:What happened?
Did I miss something?

How did this thread go from a "product release schedule update" thread to a "whining about Space Wolves" thread?
Did I miss something in JHDD's initial post?

Eric

Because SW aren't in the product release schedule update... (thus I whine ). Anyways, I am equally to blame ... so oh well, I am done venting.

The other factor was the original rumormill grist that indicated the SW were coming due in the winter of 2008/2009. Models exist. The army has been teased, usually by Phil Kelly. Then the rumor hit they were now scheduled for released in Q3/Q4 2009. Painful, but the schedule is variable. To see something that states they might not even be in 2009 is painful. Pretty simple.

To be fair, I'm certain they still are. As I pointed out, it's an easy Codex, especially if the models exist. So the comment did not appear out of thin air. There is history to it. People I trust more than BolS are expecting them in 2009, but there is nothing more specific than that.

Given the fact that whichever codex this forum decides is 'older' makes no difference to GW's plan as it stands, is it really worth any more pages of debate on the minutiae of updates vs. rewrites?

EDIT: Looks like someone's made the point already

The few SW models shown are for the collectors range.

BrookM wrote:The few SW models shown are for the collectors range.

Thanks for stripping me of what little hope I had left

I seriously doubt that they will underpower it. With the way fantasy armies have been going recently, it's likely to be excessively brutal and join the ranks of VE and Daemons in the "Mike Tyson vs. Little Jimmy" category when put up against older armies.

erm, i doubt it, with 9 per army thier points will have to take a cut, at 250 that would be crazy.
and there are no chances the steggy's stats or rules will be improved, just made worse to accomodate the 9 per army crap.

It's not. Dark Eldar 1st Edition was published in 1998. Space Wolves add on for the Space Marines codex was published in 2000.

dienekes96 wrote:Substantial is a judgment call. You initially stated they ONLY fixed typos, which was not accurate. So I was clarifying that point. While also pointing out that I understand the fundamental DE line is older, it still does NOT break GW's rule of one book = one army. Only one army does that.

Substantial is not a judgment call in this case, the number of differences would probably be less than 10% of the total book, versus the 90%+ other books see. The fact is very little of the book was changed. I spoke in hyperbole when I said only typos.

dienekes96 wrote:Fortunately for me, my army is the 13th Company, so I need THREE books to play that one. But I didn't bring that up because the 13th doesn't really exist in that form anymore. And the point about having two books isn't a gripe...I have money. It's the fact that it does not meet GW's stated goal, whereas every other Codex does. So I'd argue that it is the book most in need of revision, being the second oldest and single least compliant army list.

The real issue isn't about how much it deviates from the common practice as it is about the degree viability has been diminished. The minimal number of special rules that any of the Space Marine armies use relative to other armies makes it such that they will almost always be least affected by edition changes. Updating both DE and SW are something I strongly believe need to happen, I just think DE will happen first because of their significantly diminished viability and poor models.

dienekes96 wrote:Then it sucks for all five of the DE players. I specifically chose an army allowing me maximum utility through the model ranges GW produces. As you eloquently pointed out, this is about models, not rules. I know new Wolf Models exist, and I want them. Since the SW is so easy of a redo (since it's just the SM book rejiggered, according to you), they should pop them out first. Low risk, high reward...unlike the DE.

I know more DE players than SW players; if it sucks for all five DE players it sucks for both of the SW players. If your choice to play SW was so meticulous as to be based on maximum utility it seems like an oversight on your part to choose something you so strongly object to being as aged as it is. SW's new models are far off, aside from the collector models, but they will always benefit from marine models getting update. The DE players I know have had their armies since they came out in third and it was less about a choice of utility and more about how much they liked the DE concept. The world has seen enough marines, most players can wait another few months for DE before SW.

i know 2 DE armies (3 including mine) while i know of 1 SW army (which has been put away due to its 13th company)

I'm happy to hear bout the DE release and might get rid of my old army.

I'd just like to say that my Yuan Yuan and Hellcats are really looking forward to having a Valkyrie to AD: Combat Jump out of.

ha ha Im just stoked that Imperial Guard get the codex update they need so bad, and the reason why DE and SW dosent have a new one is because they're crap

wwwooooo Imperial Guard for the Imperial Guard god!!!

No but seriously, looking forward to a guard update also.

dienekes96 wrote:I think that's my fault.

I simply stated that the Wolves should be in 2009. I didn't care when. I don't want to push any of the other releases. I just want Wolves in 2009.

It spiraled out from there. So I'll take ownership.

And I'll reiterate...I want the Wolves to be released in 2009. Not in place of the DE, mind you. But if they replaced IG or Necrons, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

I would. While SW need an update badly, so does IG, DH, WH, DE etc.

Necrons I'd probably agree with you, but IG really do need a new book *badly*

From a Codex standpoint, Woofs are clearly the worst off, as they don't have a standalone book - they're required to also use the SM book. At least, make a WD list to break them off separately.

From a rules comprehension standpoint, Necrons are in dire need of cleanup and streamlining so that they play properly.

From a numbers / competitiveness standpoint, IG are the largest core army (SM, CSM, Eldar, Orks, IG, Nids) that hasn't been redone into something that works properly for 5E play.

DH, WH, and DE are all effectively standalone Codices with minimal rules issues, and insignificant numbers. These are all lower priority compared to the armies above.

Raxor wrote:Generic daemons eh? Can't say CSMs are being ignored.

You have those now...

1. Take 1 standard GW round base.
2. Take a 6" section of plastic sprue.
3. Hold sprue over heating element until it gets "plastic"
4. Push end on base until it can "stand"
5. Use pin or pliers to pull, push, squeese until it looks vaguely daemonic humanoid.
6. Paint gray. (After all you don't want to infringe on the copyrighted colors of Tzeench, Slaanesh, Khorne or Nurgle.)
7. Laugh bitterly at the old days when the chaos gods truly supported the fallen marines.
8. Pray to the GW chaos gods that they will not realize your blob demons can still assault on the turn they appear lest they realize they left you this one power that the true chaos demons lack.

DAaddict wrote:
8. Pray to the GW chaos gods that they will not realize your blob demons can still assault on the turn they appear lest they realize they left you this one power that the true chaos demons lack.

What?

FWIW, Kroxigors and Dryads would be pretty decent stand-ins for generic Daemons.

If I did Chaos, I'd combine Marine torsos and legs with Beastmen Gor heads, arm, and maybe some legs. I'd use the Ungors as Lesser Demons, and the Shaggoth as a Greater Demon.

Let me clear this up. The DE codex was reprinted to include vehicle upgrade rules, which had been printed in a White Dwarf, and to generalize wych weapons. That's all apart from minor tweaks and type-o corrections. It was errata that should have been included in the first place and it essentially changed nothing. The vehicle upgrades were quickly scribbled rules that Gav Thorpe slapped together, many of them unpractical or outright useless. It was basically an edit. The most minor change ever made to an army and a very poor excuse to neglect the DE the way they've done. There are more DE players out there than most of you realize. They're all simply putting up with playing other armies until GW gives them an excuse to pick up their favorite army once again.
Didn't space wolves get 13th company rules in Eye of Terror campaign? That's more of a change than what DE got with their edited codex. Imo, to suggest that space marines of any shape, form, flavor or chapter deserve an update before Dark Eldar is outrageously delusional. No matter how you slice it, there simply is no army more deserving of a complete rehash and massive update.

For those who haven't already seen them, I'll share pics of my DE. I plan to paint the new models based on the same theme:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/217918.page#375626

Archonate wrote:The DE codex was reprinted to include vehicle upgrade rules, which had been printed in a White Dwarf, and to generalize wych weapons.

There are more DE players out there than most of you realize. Didn't space wolves get 13th company rules in Eye of Terror campaign?

Imo, to suggest that space marines of any shape, form, flavor or chapter deserve an update before Dark Eldar is outrageously delusional.

No matter how you slice it, there simply is no army more deserving of a complete rehash and massive update.

For those who haven't already seen them, I'll share pics of my DE.

Correct. And that makes it a different, NEW Codex. I have a first printing DE Codex, and the revision is clearly up-powered. And post-dates the SW Codex.

So there are whopping *3* Dark Eldar players, instead of just 2? OK, I'll believe that.

No. 13th Company is a separate army that requires the SW Codex, which requires the SM Codex. And it's deader than your DE. Tho when you make the comparsion, really, most players see that as a request for GW to declare SW to be a dead Codex altogether... I can easily see GW agreeing... Perhaps we'll hear that Comorragh got eaten by the Nids???

"Delusional"? I think that's a bit strong. Particularly given that Necrons are effectively another flavor of Marines, and they are far more in need of a new Codex than Dark Eldar. Necrons have a lot of confusing rules, whereas DE are pretty simple.

Also, for all intents and purposes, DE got both a massive update *and* then a follow-up refresh. They were published as "Codex: Tau" and "Codex: Tau Empire".

No thanks. The DE models are hands down the ugliest range of models that GW has produced since 3rd Edition was published. Horrible sculpting. Horrible details. Horrible poses. There isn't a single model in the lot that I'd be proud to call my own. I'm so glad I sold my DE army!

I know several DE players and not one space wolves player. I've seen at least 10 DE armies in all my years, while in the same time have only seen 1 SW army.

Seriously any changes made to Codex: DE all those years ago were less substantial than the changes between "Codex: Tau and "Codex: Tau Empire," at best it could be called a revision more than an update. Proof of the fact that the revisions were insubstantial is that GW did not accompany the "second release" with any new miniatures and that it did not reserve a unique ISBN for the revised book. Both show that GW did not intend it to be considered a new release so much as an update.

The DE models are some of the worst, that alone should merit an update before any other army. The rules for the DE is showing its age and has much to be desired.

I would dare anyone to come up with a list of true deficiencies in the SW list without referencing Codex: SM. I'm confident the DE list would be longer and more substantial. While a majority of changes are not true deficiencies but rather envy for what the new marine codex has.

JohnHwangDD wrote:There isn't a single model in the lot that I'd be proud to call my own.

Not even the trenchcoated Inquibi or half naked slave girls? I'm mean sure, the rest..... But not even those two?

Not that I want to bash SW players or anything like that, but the new Marine 'Dex does seem to allow a lot of different options, including veterans with a lot of CC options. I don't really see what the old SW Codex would bring to the table that couldn't be build slightly different with the new maine book.

Except Leman Russ exterminators, pet wolfs and maybe some psychic powers I can't think of anything that interesting in the old space wolf codex.

Correct me, if I'm wrong....

Anung Un Rama wrote:Not that I want to bash SW players or anything like that, but the new Marine 'Dex does seem to allow a lot of different options, including veterans with a lot of CC options. I don't really see what the old SW Codex would bring to the table that couldn't be build slightly different with the new maine book.

Except Leman Russ exterminators, pet wolfs and maybe some psychic powers I can't think of anything that interesting in the old space wolf codex.

Correct me, if I'm wrong....

You're not wrong. Space Wolves get an update every time a new Space Marine codex is released. Besides wolves and psychic powers, the updates they've received have made their old codex as obsolete as any other 3rd edition SM codex.

Anung Un Rama wrote:Not that I want to bash SW players or anything like that, but the new Marine 'Dex does seem to allow a lot of different options, including veterans with a lot of CC options. I don't really see what the old SW Codex would bring to the table that couldn't be build slightly different with the new maine book.

Except Leman Russ exterminators, pet wolfs and maybe some psychic powers I can't think of anything that interesting in the old space wolf codex.

Archonate wrote:Besides wolves and psychic powers, the updates they've received have made their old codex as obsolete as any other 3rd edition SM codex.

Congratulations. You've both just illustrated exactly why SW need a new codex, and quickly.

It's clear you prefer DE over SW. You just don't have to make your need for a new codex somehow appear greater by trying to diminish the needs of other armies or the desires of their players.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Correct. And that makes it a different, NEW Codex.

No, it does not. Or were each of the four 'editions' of the previous Codex Chaos Space Marines a NEW codex as well?

Why not instead of arguing for your codex/codex's of choice, how about agree that games-workshop needs to get moving on getting them out quicker. 10 year, 2 edition gaps are pretty lame. I'm sure a lot would prefer getting the new rules in their hands, even with a few holes in the model range that will need filled later, than having to wait 2 editions for a new book.

As was said before, the DE are in works for some time now, only Rick Priestly has rejected two previous redesign concepts on the grounds of something not to his liking. GW is working on it, but they feel they need to do those pointy-eared rapists justice and redeem their selves in the process.

So, in the meantime we'll be getting Guard first!

aka_mythos wrote:The rules for the DE is showing its age and has much to be desired.

I would dare anyone to come up with a list of true deficiencies in the SW list without referencing Codex: SM.

Huh? Rules-wise DE are old-style (Retinues), but otherwise, they're fine.

That's obvious, given that SW are basically SM, so of course, they would need things like Combat Squads imposed on them.

Aduro wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:There isn't a single model in the lot that I'd be proud to call my own.

Not even the trenchcoated Inquibi or half naked slave girls? I'm mean sure, the rest..... But not even those two?

The Incubi are incredibly mediocre compared to other 2nd Edition models, which makes them the range-toppers. Pathetic, really. It's like finding the single year-old Chevy on a used car lot of rusty Yugos...

The slave girls aren't horrible, but then, they aren't really DE models - they don't correspond to any actual unit on their own. They're just decorations.

Ghaz wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Correct. And that makes it a different, NEW Codex.

No, it does not. Or were each of the four 'editions' of the previous Codex Chaos Space Marines a NEW codex as well?

Huh? You're not making sense here.

ubermosher wrote:
Congratulations. You've both just illustrated exactly why SW need a new codex, and quickly.

It's clear you prefer DE over SW. You just don't have to make your need for a new codex somehow appear greater by trying to diminish the needs of other armies or the desires of their players.

Seriously if GW has showed us anything its that you really can't expect much effort when it comes to them re-doing a marine codex.

GW will probably do the following:
Toss out "Blood Feud" and "No Matter the Odds"
Since they don't teleport to deepstrike they'll probably get drop pods.
They will probably lose the Leman Russ Exterminator in favor of another variant.
Point costs will come down. Because GW wants you to buy more.
You'll get some of the new options from the new SM codex, like the upgrades for Scouts.
They will probably gain a unit that is inexplicably a clone of a 13th company wulfen, which GW will call a new unit.
They will probably gain a new vehicle... maybe that "longboat" concept.

Modelwise: Conversion bits for Scouts, bikes, and generic marines. SW symbols for every vehicle. A new wolf. A redone special character model. Kits for the new vehicle and "wulfen."

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The rules for the DE is showing its age and has much to be desired.

I would dare anyone to come up with a list of true deficiencies in the SW list without referencing Codex: SM.

Huh? Rules-wise DE are old-style (Retinues), but otherwise, they're fine.

That's obvious, given that SW are basically SM, so of course, they would need things like Combat Squads imposed on them.

Combat Squads? Why? It goes against their fluff completely. And its unnecessary from a balance stand point, since they do not have heavy weapons in their "tac squads."

And, in response to someone else, there are plenty of things that SM cannot do that SW can. Berserk charge blood claws, split-fire long fangs and scouts coming from behind enemy lines (which I hope they do not lose in favor of flank) just to name a few.

It's called the four different 'printings' of Codex Chaos Space Marines where each printing had different rules. Or the two printings of Codex Imperial Guard where one had servitors as wargear and the other did not. Those are no more NEW codices than what they did with Codex Dark Eldar. Codex Dark Eldar IS the oldest codex because the so-called 'Second Edition' is not a new codex. If it was, it wouldn't be a Second Edition', would it? No it would not.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The rules for the DE is showing its age and has much to be desired.
I would dare anyone to come up with a list of true deficiencies in the SW list without referencing Codex: SM.

Huh? Rules-wise DE are old-style (Retinues), but otherwise, they're fine.

There are several antedated units in the DE codex, not just the retinue, that need improvements. Grotesques and Raider Squads to name two throw back units; Grotesques are worthless and the idea that a squad is somehow a unique unit because its 10 man smaller and can take a transport is weak and lazy on the part of GW. Grotesques need to be redone and DE need another troop choice.
Combat drugs could be reworked.
The Ravager is outgunned as a heavy support choice. Needs revisions.
The Talos should be a monstrous creature.
The Retinue needs adjustments.
Warp beasts should be re-worked, they're about even to a Wyche but cost more, warp beast should be made more worth while.
I want to avoid an Eldar comparison, but in general the elite units of the Eldar have such a leg up over the DE. Appropriate or not, it is what it is, though it strikes me their should be some degree of match up. And without the different aspect they need to have additional weapon options.
There are also several niches that should be filled in the army by new units, some could simply be addressed with revisions of other units but would go a long way of making them more of a standing army.

More than any other army they need more fluff. What fluff that is there is decent but a drop in the bucket compared to other armies.

It's a good thing this highly semantic debate is going on. I understand the GW Designers are watching the internets for conclusive proof of which one they should be working on next. This thread could be pivotal!

I don't think this is semantic at all, because it has nothing to do with differing meanings of words but with people opinions. Now that's a semantic argument.

OK, you got me, I was too polite to say 'pointless' and put 'semantic' instead. Now you forced my hand.

Tribune wrote:OK, you got me, I was too polite to say 'pointless' and put 'semantic' instead. Now you forced my hand.

Because, when it comes down to it, a website devoted to man dolls is highly necessary and important.

Ahhh, but there are different degrees of pointless. Clearly. Ahem...

Because ultimately, a website devoted to man dolls has a lot going for it!

(in before lock)

But we at least know that there has been siginificant work put into the DE by now. Only an insane person can deny that. Personally, it doesn't affect me that much whichever comes out first, as I'm working on another army right now that probably won't be finished by then.

aka_mythos wrote:
GW will probably do the following:
Toss out "Blood Feud" and "No Matter the Odds"
Since they don't teleport to deepstrike they'll probably get drop pods.
They will probably lose the Leman Russ Exterminator in favor of another variant.
Point costs will come down. Because GW wants you to buy more.
You'll get some of the new options from the new SM codex, like the upgrades for Scouts.
They will probably gain a unit that is inexplicably a clone of a 13th company wulfen, which GW will call a new unit.
They will probably gain a new vehicle... maybe that "longboat" concept.

Modelwise: Conversion bits for Scouts, bikes, and generic marines. SW symbols for every vehicle. A new wolf. A redone special character model. Kits for the new vehicle and "wulfen."

Pretty much:
- rules-wise, but Grey Hunters should get Combat Squads.
- I see Infiltrate being the SW gimmick, but Drop Pods should be standard. GW has a lot of Drop Pods to sell...
- Exterminator goes for sure, but I'd bank on the SW having the Predator Destructor replace the Exterminator.
- Point costs stay the same for infantry, down for Transports & non-Troops; Plasma becomes prohibitive, and will definitely cost more than a Blood Claw.
- Many options will carry, but I wouldn't count on a lot of Scout options.
- Wulfen are a no-brainer "NEW!!!" unit.
- As above, I'm guessing a Predator as their new vehicle, similar to how the BA have the Baal.

aka_mythos wrote:There are several antedated units in the DE codex, not just the retinue, that need improvements.

There are also several niches that should be filled in the army by new units, some could simply be addressed with revisions of other units but would go a long way of making them more of a standing army.

Mostly, you're talking about minor cleanup and rebalancing. But the fact remains that the DE are rules-simple as a stand-alone book that does'nt sell. They don't have the fundamental problems of the SW being attached to the SM book. Or the sheer rules mechanic problems in the Necrons. Or the sheer sales interest of the Guard. Those guys *need* new Codices at a very fundamental level. DE don't.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:
GW will probably do the following:
Toss out "Blood Feud" and "No Matter the Odds"
Since they don't teleport to deepstrike they'll probably get drop pods.
They will probably lose the Leman Russ Exterminator in favor of another variant.
Point costs will come down. Because GW wants you to buy more.
You'll get some of the new options from the new SM codex, like the upgrades for Scouts.
They will probably gain a unit that is inexplicably a clone of a 13th company wulfen, which GW will call a new unit.
They will probably gain a new vehicle... maybe that "longboat" concept.

Modelwise: Conversion bits for Scouts, bikes, and generic marines. SW symbols for every vehicle. A new wolf. A redone special character model. Kits for the new vehicle and "wulfen."

Pretty much:
- rules-wise, but Grey Hunters should get Combat Squads.
- I see Infiltrate being the SW gimmick, but Drop Pods should be standard. GW has a lot of Drop Pods to sell...
- Exterminator goes for sure, but I'd bank on the SW having the Predator Destructor replace the Exterminator.
- Point costs stay the same for infantry, down for Transports & non-Troops; Plasma becomes prohibitive, and will definitely cost more than a Blood Claw.
- Many options will carry, but I wouldn't count on a lot of Scout options.
- Wulfen are a no-brainer "NEW!!!" unit.
- As above, I'm guessing a Predator as their new vehicle, similar to how the BA have the Baal.

- Blood Feud will likely be Preferred Enemy. In the current FAQ Against the Odds was dropped altogether, something that continues to rub me raw, since we still pay the points for it. They should get Stubborn instead. True grit will become models armed with Bolter, BP, and CCW. Keep Counter Attack.
- They get drop pods now, and work really well with the list. In fact my drop podding SW list usually out-performs my mechanized list, due to the ability to take plasma/melta and 2 plasma pistols.
- I think whether or not the new IG codex has Leman Russ variant tanks will determine their fate for a new SW codex. If there are several new variants, I'd expect that not only will we keep the Exterminator, but get access to other variants as well. Gives the Wolves a unique flavor, and also follows the Rules-Driving-Sales business model.
- Point costs need to come down... No way my Wolf Lord and 4 Terminator Wolf Guard Body Guard should cost 400 points. 30 point WS/BS 3 bikers?
- The Rune Priest (SW Librarian) needs more (and different from other chapters) Psychic Powers and gear.
- The Wolf Priest needs major revisions. The unit is a Chaplain/Apothecary hybrid. His Fang of Morkai refers to the SM codex entry for the Reductor. Which of course no longer exists. Healing Balms cost 25 points and aren't nearly as good as the new Apothecaries. He costs 5 points less than a Chaplain, but only get the Power weapon and 4++ save. No fearless, no Reroll to hit. I'd rather have either a Chaplain or an Apothecary, not a hybrid that does neither job well.
- Iron Priest. Never even heard of one being included in a SW list. Some possibilities here such as allowing for Leman Russ(es) in the list.
- As much as I like the new SM Scout options, I really hope they don't change SW scouts to them. Their current flavor as grizzled commandos instead of new recruits (which are Blood Claws) is perfect. Operate Behind Enemy Lines is too good to give up. Actually, the SW codex says we can take one unit of Scouts as described in the SM codex. That can go.
- Keeping in line with the new development strategy, we should get some new/revamped Named Characters that allow for different list building strategies (Grey Hunters can infiltrate, unit X counts as troops, etc.). A named Dreadnought (Bjorn) would be cool, and unique.
- Long Fangs desperately need an overhaul. They're a great idea fluff wise, with absolutely no practical value on the tabletop. Long Fang Plastics would be welcome, too.
- A unit of Fenrisian Wolves that are Beasts seems like a no-brainer. I'd love to let a line of wolves with a 12" charge precede my main battleline. Seems like a good alternative to 30 Point Blood Claws with Jump Packs (30 point WS 3 Assault Marines? Gee thanks)
- Grey Hunters, or any unit, should absolutely not get Combat Squads... way too much of a Roboute concept.
- SW already get Pred Destructor.
- And yes, I expect some 13th Company flavor, including Wulfen Elites, and a 13th Company Named Character.

Soooo many opportunities for great gaming... come on Phil Kelly...

/wishlist

It's clear you prefer DE over SW. You just don't have to make your need for a new codex somehow appear greater by trying to diminish the needs of other armies or the desires of their players.

I didn't want to diminish any army, I just didn't know a lot about Werewolf Vikings from space, but they seem to have a lot of extras going for them
. Personally, I don't care if DE get a their book first or the other way round (as long as it won't be those ing Blood Angels).

I suppose they both need an update, but if we really get a plastic valkyre for guard, then the Space puppies and rappists can wait.

Anung Un Rama wrote:I suppose they both need an update, but if we really get a plastic valkyre for guard, then the Space puppies and rappists can wait.

Well there we agree.

Anung Un Rama wrote:if we really get a plastic valkyre for guard, then the Space puppies and rappists can wait.

QFT.

I'm counting on those Valks for next year!

New guard plastics just confirm my decision to hold off on my IG army until Spring.

New guard plastics. Man, I'm just getting my allotment of the last "new guard plastics" painted up. Slower than old folks uphill through the snow in January.

Hope those plastic Valkyries are out before my friend gets out of jail. Yeah, I know, that's an odd wish to have, but I want to run the 'Thunderhawk Down' scenario we wrote a while back as a 'welcome back' present, and as none of us are insane enough to buy a Thunderhawk, some Valk's will do!

Hell, the reason I own 6 squads of Karskin and a Deathwatch army was so we could the various forces.

BYE

H.B.M.C. has a new Avatar?! Do we have an apocalypse coming up I don't know about?

Also: My vote goes to "DakkaDakka: More Warseer than Warseer"

Yes. I'm now in colour. Next step - 3D!!!!

BYE

Admit it. You just did that because of that new guy who has a negative image of your former avatar and talks about you in his location-info

Actually no. While I was away I was on the other forum I'm from, and I noticed someone had this Avatar. It was basically my one in colour, so I thought for my blazing return I'd try something different.

I like it. It's Commissar Calgar Mk.II - now with more pigment!!

BYE

Prayers answered:

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2008/10/14/18357#comment-28449

We have been sent release dates and US prices for the following Games Workshop releases from now until February 2009.

November 8th, 2008

Citadel Realm Of Battle Gameboard $200.00
Warhammer Armies: Warriors Of Chaos $25.00
Chaos Warhounds $22.00
Chaos Marauder Horsemen $22.00
Chaos Knights $22.00
Warriors Of Chaos Battalion $90.00
Chaos Warrior Chosen Command $30.00
Chaos Warrior Chosen $30.00
Khorne Chaos Lord On Juggernaut $30.00
Chaos Lord On Daemonic Mount $30.00
Nurgle Chaos Sorcerer $15.00
Wulfrik The Wanderer $15.00
Sigvald The Magnificient $15.00
Khorne Chaos Champion $15.00

January 9th, 2008

Ork Nobz $25.00
Ork Stormboyz $25.00
Ork Gretchin $15.00
Ork Battlewagon $50.00
Boss Zagstruk $20.00
Kaptin Badrukk $20.00
Boss Snikrot $15.00
February 9th, 2009

Warhammer Armies: Lizardmen $25.00
Lizardmen Stegadon $40.00
Lizardmen Saurus Temple Guard $25.00

I wonder what the Daemonic Mount will look like. Maybe it'll be convertible...

It's the dude on a horse.

They're making a captain Badrukk? Nice that for once, I geht that info before I build my own

I'm assuming that's 15.00 for a box of plastic gretchin not new metals right?

The plastic grots will most likely be just like the plastic Gnoblar: single or two-piece models with separate heads so "no two grots look the same"

Seems like! Sweet! Plastic Gretchin have been on my wish list since the one-piece models in the second edition 40K box!!!

So does this mean Lizardmen are getting a new codex? I thought that GW switched between releasing a 40k and WFB army codex without doing two of the same in a row. I guess they are counting the second release of orks to that.

Could be a Lord of the Rings release somewhere in there as well, but nobody cares about that one.

I'm *sure* we'll see more LotR releases. If only to fill gaps left by not releasing 40k and WFB minis.

I mean, GW can't possibly do a whole month on releaseing a $275+ gaming board, can they?!?

Didn't they try the same with those washes and hand flamer?

Guess what, Lord of the Rings is next months release. Glad to see no one actually bothered to find out...

@Ratbarf, you know this is a 40k/WFB-centric site. So if it doesn't concern 40k/WFB, it really doesn't exist or matter to most of the posters here.

Commisar00 wrote:So does this mean Lizardmen are getting a new codex? I thought that GW switched between releasing a 40k and WFB army codex without doing two of the same in a row. I guess they are counting the second release of orks to that.

Yeah, well, you should have seen how much attention Fantasy got when 3rd ed. started to kick off. I don't remember any specific pledge to alternate between the two, though.

Yah I know, just figured there have got to be other LOTR players on the site as well.

Shall we get back OT? Otherwise I know a very nice little sandbox for people to sit and "discuss" in...

Bell of Lost Souls wrote:MARCH:
Apocalypse
Stompa and one or more Baneblade variants (Stormlord and/or Shadowsword, possibly others).

Stompa?! Isnt that the ork version of a warhound titan? BIG ork robot in plastic? AWESOME!

Bell of Lost Souls wrote:APRIL-MAY:
Plastic Daemon Prince, new Seekers, rest of the named Daemons, possibly generic daemons and a Battleforce

A new dp in plastic. Lovely! Ive put in quite a bit of work in converting my metal dp and it wouldve been so much better with a plastic one. What does "rest of the named daemons" mean?

Bell of Lost Souls wrote:Q3-Q4:
Necrons
All the stuff reported here.

Reported where? Ive always thought the idea behind the necrons were really cool but not liked all the figs. So new range of figs? More plastic to the people!

Bell of Lost Souls wrote:Dark Eldar
New range by Jes Goodwin, Codex by Phil Kelley. End of the year, possibly bumped even later to make sure the army is done correctly.

Same here. Always thought DE was an awesome concept. Unfortunately the figs are totally ubber ugly. I wouldnt want to play DE if you gave me the figs. New pimped ones? Im intrigued... To bad that the names Jes Goodwin and Phil Kelley doesnt mean anything to me.

So, help a newb out here!

1) Phil Kelley: main writer of the Orks, Tyranids, and Eldar Codicies and the Warriors of Chaos armybook; considered one of their better book/rule writers out there.

2) Jes Goodwin: longtime GW sculptor, now in charge of plastics, and most well known for the 3rd edition Marine plastics (which now are the bedrock of that line). Also known for the plastic Carnifex, the new Khorne Lord on Jugger, the Eldar Wraithlord and Harlequins.

So in short...the two best guys on GW's payroll for the effort.

Jes also did the Falcon kit, if I recall correctly. If he did the Wraithlord, didn't he also do the new Warwalkers?

xedric wrote:Stompa?! Isnt that the ork version of a warhound titan? BIG ork robot in plastic? AWESOME!

A new dp in plastic. Lovely!
What does "rest of the named daemons" mean?

Reported where? Ive always thought the idea behind the necrons were really cool but not liked all the figs. So new range of figs? More plastic to the people!

To bad that the names Jes Goodwin and Phil Kelley doesnt mean anything to me.

Stompa is a Orky Warhound. It looks like a big potato. Tho I'm curious to see if it'll keep the old penile gun...

Daemon Prince goes plastic because it's a big metal model that costs them loads to produce. Plus, WFB doesn't have a decent DP model. Their DPs are old and weak-looking. Like the ancient, Ogre-sized GDs. The rest are the miscellaenous Special Characters that haven't been released with the C: Daemons.

Necron rumors are on Dakka (News & Rumors), from Bell of Lost Souls. Seach a little...

Jes Goodwin goes back to RT-era. He did the original Eldar (Aspects & Harlies) back in the day, along with the Space Marines. And the Sisters. Really, he does fantastic miniatures work, and is the primary reason why GW is the dominant TTG company.

DE Dex was the 2nd codex made in 3rd edition making it THE oldest codex in the game.

Except, DE got an update similar to Tau Empire, making SW the oldest Codex in the game.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Except, DE got an update similar to Tau Empire, making SW the oldest Codex in the game.

Well, the DE got a patch in about 2001, which was about two pages of updates to a realtively small handful of units (wyches, reavers, hellions(?)) wlong with the addition of the vehicle upgrades and the arcane wargear. All of this basically brought DE into line with the other books, which had more extensive armories already.

Tau Empire Added several new units (vespid, snipers, sky ray, piranhas), dramatically re-worked one unit (kroot), heavily tweaked two others (stealths and crisis suits), and added more wargear and expanded markerlight rules.

Space Wolves haven't changed fundamentally, in codex, since it was released, but many of the units call for the Space Marine codex, and do so for the points listed in the new SM book. Because of this, the Wolves have actually backed into some new units ( Crusaders, redeemers, Iron Clads) while getting updates and point changes on many others. As a bonus, some of the wargear has changed as well.

I think by printing date, the DE have the newer codex, but in any meaningful measure of rules, the Wolves have gotten at least some changes and updates in the last 8 years, while the DE have not.

I know you don't have the greatest love for DE, but it's simply misleading to make the claim you did. The DE update was not really that similar to the Tau one (who got all new units, rules, fluff, art, etc), and is in fact much more similar to the SW changes with the new codex.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Except, DE got an update similar to Tau Empire, making SW the oldest Codex in the game.

No, they got a page in White Dwarf which was rolled into the '2nd Printing' of the codex. It doesn't even compare with with the change from Codex Tau to Codex Tau Empire.

Please: didn't we JUST have this argument? Stop it already.

Jes Goodwin is, IMO, the most important sculptor at GW. He designed the eldar and the modern-style (late 1st edition and later) space marines. He's one of the Crown Jewels of GW.

@Polonius: SW getting SM updates "by default" doesn't count as SW getting updates - it counts as SM getting updates.

If you want to use that as your criteria, than DE and SW are at least on the same footing, as both armies got rebalanced "by default" when the 5E Rulebook came out. In which case, *every* army *just* got new rules, so nobody has any basis for complaint!

If the DE / SW situation were analogous, SW would have gotten SW-specific wargear and unit tweaks for 4E, but as far as I know, that never happened.

Thus, I think that DE are up a page or two over the SW, at least, as far as army-specific rules go.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

xedric wrote:Stompa?! Isnt that the ork version of a warhound titan? BIG ork robot in plastic? AWESOME!

A new dp in plastic. Lovely!
What does "rest of the named daemons" mean?

Reported where? Ive always thought the idea behind the necrons were really cool but not liked all the figs. So new range of figs? More plastic to the people!

To bad that the names Jes Goodwin and Phil Kelley doesnt mean anything to me.

Stompa is a Orky Warhound. It looks like a big potato. Tho I'm curious to see if it'll keep the old penile gun...

Isn't the "penile gun" only on the Gargant and Mega-Gargant?

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Polonius: SW getting SM updates "by default" doesn't count as SW getting updates - it counts as SM getting updates.

If you want to use that as your criteria, than DE and SW are at least on the same footing, as both armies got rebalanced "by default" when the 5E Rulebook came out. In which case, *every* army *just* got new rules, so nobody has any basis for complaint!

If the DE / SW situation were analogous, SW would have gotten SW-specific wargear and unit tweaks for 4E, but as far as I know, that never happened.

Thus, I think that DE are up a page or two over the SW, at least, as far as army-specific rules go.

What the DE got was essentially a FAQ, not an updated codex. The Space Wolves got as much (or more) than the DE did simply by GW updating their parent codex.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Polonius: SW getting SM updates "by default" doesn't count as SW getting updates - it counts as SM getting updates.

If you want to use that as your criteria, than DE and SW are at least on the same footing, as both armies got rebalanced "by default" when the 5E Rulebook came out. In which case, *every* army *just* got new rules, so nobody has any basis for complaint!

If the DE / SW situation were analogous, SW would have gotten SW-specific wargear and unit tweaks for 4E, but as far as I know, that never happened.

Thus, I think that DE are up a page or two over the SW, at least, as far as army-specific rules go.

Well, you can say that, but Space Wolves were the only codex to get an updated with the Space Marine book aside from marines themselves. You can't simply wave away the fact that Space Wolves, and no other army, changed with the new Space Marine book. They also gained new units that no other army gains (Ironclads and Redeemers).

Even by your little 5th ed think, Wolves would still be more updated, getting the SM updates as well.

Seriously, can you really claim that Wolves didn't get a pretty invovled update with the new Marine Book?

If you want to say that Wolves are the army with the oldest dedicated rules, then I'd agree with that. But in terms of actually constructive rules updates, I'd consider a tweak of seven units, plus three more additional units, to be a pretty healthy update.

We can argue all day about who is getting screwed most by slow GW printing. Don't worry though, they will start doing 3 whole codex's a year soon. Let's see, 12 armies, divided by 3... so 4 years to get them all done.

That's great news for space wolves and inquisition. At this rate we will be choosing a president again when new codex's roll around for some armies... since you have to assume that there will be a new Space Marine codex in there someplace... and probably a new space marine chapter book.

Alpharius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Stompa is a Orky Warhound. It looks like a big potato. Tho I'm curious to see if it'll keep the old penile gun...

Isn't the "penile gun" only on the Gargant and Mega-Gargant?

Good question. It's been so long since I've played Epic, I've forgotten the details.

Polonius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Polonius: SW getting SM updates "by default" doesn't count as SW getting updates - it counts as SM getting updates.

Well, you can say that, but Space Wolves were the only codex to get an updated with the Space Marine book aside from marines themselves. You can't simply wave away the fact that Space Wolves, and no other army, changed with the new Space Marine book.

They also gained new units that no other army gains (Ironclads and Redeemers).

Seriously, can you really claim that Wolves didn't get a pretty invovled update with the new Marine Book?

If you want to say that Wolves are the army with the oldest dedicated rules, then I'd agree with that. But in terms of actually constructive rules updates, I'd consider a tweak of seven units, plus three more additional units, to be a pretty healthy update.

To which, I say, "so what?". None of those changes were made with SW in mind.

How do you figure they got Ironclads & Redeemers? IIRC, the SW Book says "see Dreadnought in C: SM", or "see Land Raider in C: SM". The C: SM book lists Ironclad as "Ironclad Dreadnought", and Redeemer as "LR Redeemer". Those are different entries with completely different names. Therefore, the IC Dread, LS Storm, and LR Redeemer are *NOT* valid for SW use any more than Cantor / Shrike / Calgar are as Captains / Masters.

Why are you claiming that they did? The costs and options changed slightly on many common units that they carried over, but none of the SW-specific stuff was re-written. Frost Blades, Blood Claws, Grey Hunters are all using the same rules as in 3E.

And what are you talking about "three additional units" for? There are NO additional units that the SW got. Not unless you're deilberately mis-reading the SW rules...

The Space Wolf FAQ at:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180145_Space_Wolves_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

It is, unfortunatly, less than clear as to what units Wolves may take. The FAQ states they may take "all different variants and options" and then goes on to specifically disallow the venerable dreadnought option. I can see some interesting RAW debates, but I'd read that as allowing the variants, such as Ironclads and redeemers in. If nothing else, the Wolves got the crusader thanks to, what, codex armageddon? I'm pretty sure that's been a part of the space wolf list since Fourth edition. So while I may be misreading the FAQ, I don't think I'm deliberatly misreading it.

As for the nature of the changes, hey, I agree that none of them were made with wolves in mind. My point is that it doesn't matter, they were made! A space wolf player doesn't think "Oh, space marine predators are different, and since my codex references them I am a third party beneficiary of a rules change." No, they think, "cool, I get new predator rules."

I agree that the lack of dedicated support for wolves is a shame, and as a marquee army in 2nd edition it's a real tragedy. But to say that the rules updates Space Wolves are enjoying aren't "real" updates seems odd to me.

I guess I'd also point out that all the "real" space wolf stuff did at least gain the new drop pods. So, they have that going for them!

I don't see Land Raider Crusaders in Codex Space Wolves, yet we know that they have them. So there's one unit that was added right there. You can go on and on all you want, but it does not change the fact that Dark Eldar did not get a new codex and even GW knows that. It wouldn't have been a 'Second Edition' if it were a new codex, would it? No.

Ghaz wrote:I don't see Land Raider Crusaders in Codex Space Wolves, yet we know that they have them.

That is because the C: Armageddon BT army list specifically said SW, etc. could take 0-1 Crusader to push the model sales beyond BT-only.

Polonius wrote:The Space Wolf FAQ at:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180145_Space_Wolves_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

It is, unfortunatly, less than clear as to what units Wolves may take. The FAQ states they may take "all different variants and options" and then goes on to specifically disallow the venerable dreadnought option. I can see some interesting RAW debates, but I'd read that as allowing the variants, such as Ironclads and redeemers in. If nothing else, the Wolves got the crusader thanks to, what, codex armageddon? I'm pretty sure that's been a part of the space wolf list since Fourth edition. So while I may be misreading the FAQ, I don't think I'm deliberatly misreading it.

As for the nature of the changes, hey, I agree that none of them were made with wolves in mind. My point is that it doesn't matter, they were made! A space wolf player doesn't think "Oh, space marine predators are different, and since my codex references them I am a third party beneficiary of a rules change." No, they think, "cool, I get new predator rules."

I agree that the lack of dedicated support for wolves is a shame, and as a marquee army in 2nd edition it's a real tragedy. But to say that the rules updates Space Wolves are enjoying aren't "real" updates seems odd to me.

I guess I'd also point out that all the "real" space wolf stuff did at least gain the new drop pods. So, they have that going for them!

I have the current SW FAQ. And it is precisely as clear as it needs to be because the SW list says "Dreadnought", and the FAQ confirms that "Dreadnought" is "Dreadnought", not "Ironclad Dreadnought". "Variants and options" means Typhoon MLs on "Land Speeders", or Annihilator option on "Predator".

If you're not deliberately misreading the FAQ to take non-listed vehicles, why can't SW take the C: SM Special Characters? None of them retain the old 3E (4e?) restrictions of "only a CF / UM / whatever army". Therefore, if SW can take "Librarians", they can take "Tigurius". If a SW Runepriest counts as a "Techmarine", then I guess SW can take "Thunderfire Cannon", too.

Either C: SW refers to the specifically-named entries in C: SM, or it doesn't. By RAW, and RAI (by analogy), only the basic Dread, LR, and LS are available. No Ironclad, Redeemer, or Storm are listed in C: SW, so their entries are no more relevant than 4E's Tyrranic War Vets.

No, they think: "Dammit, where's my Codex?"

All of which are wonderful red herrings used to pull your attention, Ghaz, Polonius, away from the fact that DD can't admit he's wrong about the DE book.

BYE

DD can't admit about being wrong about anything.

*whispers* Psst, lets just all say that he is right and get the thread back on track? *whispers*

Hrmph.....I believe DD is right.

*whispers* cmon, guys. *whispers*

Pariah Press wrote:Please: didn't we JUST have this argument? Stop it already.

AMEN!

Pariah Press wrote:Jes Goodwin is, IMO, the most important sculptor at GW. He designed the eldar and the modern-style (late 1st edition and later) space marines. He's one of the Crown Jewels of GW.

I was told that he did the latest version of Eldar and the wraithlord is IMO one of the best looking eldar units. And its his work right? Itll be really interesting to see what he does this time.

Now when GW does a remake of the figs and release a new codex, do they usually add/change/remove units? I havent been around long enough to have a feel for this. What I mean is, can we look forward to some new necron and DE units? I hope so. It feels like there arent that many different type of units in those armies but I might be wrong.

xedric wrote:
Now when GW does a remake of the figs and release a new codex, do they usually add/change/remove units? I havent been around long enough to have a feel for this. What I mean is, can we look forward to some new necron and DE units? I hope so. It feels like there arent that many different type of units in those armies but I might be wrong.

Expect one or two new units (kits), a previously metal line now in plastic and possibly new metals of some of the characters.

Rumors have said that the whole line is being re-done, so you might see 7-9 new units in plastic/metal.

I think DD is trying to compete for the new Stelek position. (insert sarcasm emote)

DD, you may think your right concerning the DE but I got a news flash Walter Conkite, you arent.

DE will be coming to a game store near you (sometime between Spaceballs 2 and the 2nd coming of christ)

Just like the Tau redux there should be some new units for both Necrons & Dark Eldar will get some new units. At least we can hop!

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H.B.M.C. wrote:All of which are wonderful red herrings used to pull your attention, Ghaz, Polonius, away from the fact that DD can't admit he's wrong about the DE book.

BYE

Oh, is THAT what all this is about. Trying to get Mr. Hwang to cry "uncle." :S

You ask the impossible Mr. Press. The impossible.

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Polonius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Polonius: SW getting SM updates "by default" doesn't count as SW getting updates - it counts as SM getting updates.

Well, you can say that, but Space Wolves were the only codex to get an updated with the Space Marine book aside from marines themselves. You can't simply wave away the fact that Space Wolves, and no other army, changed with the new Space Marine book.

They also gained new units that no other army gains (Ironclads and Redeemers).

Seriously, can you really claim that Wolves didn't get a pretty invovled update with the new Marine Book?

If you want to say that Wolves are the army with the oldest dedicated rules, then I'd agree with that. But in terms of actually constructive rules updates, I'd consider a tweak of seven units, plus three more additional units, to be a pretty healthy update.

To which, I say, "so what?". None of those changes were made with SW in mind.

My theory, based on the above exchange, is that DDs lack of ability to see eye to eye with us on this comes from a refusal to acknowledge that Space Wolves are, in fact, Space Marines... I don't know how to argue on that level.

Mod mode:

I am closing this thread. Too many personal attacks are going on. If anyone wishes to re-open, please report or contact Yakface directly.

Mod mode off:

Is closing a thread the same as locking it? Cause it's still open.

I really wasn't trying to be rude, simply stating that Mr. Hwang should remember that SWs are Space Marines. To whom would new Space Marine rules and models apply if not to SM chapters such as SWs? Not accurate to say they don't count.

Doesn't matter anyway. GW will do what they do. It would be nice to know what's coming up. I do agree with him that SWs could actually get their update before DE, cause that's the way GW is. Whether or not they should is the disagreement.

I think the main issue between them is whether an implied reference by the Space Wolf Codex to a codex that has recently been updated twice, ala, the Space Marine Codex, would be considered a more recent upgrade than a codex that was reprinted by including White Dwarf corrections, in this case, the Dark Eldar Codex which occurred after the publication of the original Space Wolf codex.

I see it as a slippery slope for analysis.