Ogryns have been accused of many things in the past, from being under priced for their stats to overpriced for their usefulness, under strength to over strength. However what they have never been accused of is being useful. Mostly, in my opinion, this is due to the fact that they are big delicious targets, and they aren't that hard to kill with a powerfist. So, some solutions to making them useful without completely screwing up the IG.

Incredibly Tough : Ogryns are very tough abhumans. For this, they count as Toughness 5 for instant death purposes.

Removing Bone 'ead armory restrictions; allow Bone 'eads access to Officer equipment. Come on, how many of these guys will actually be on the battlefield anyhow? One? Two? Three max?

Initiative 4 : The least realistic for Ogryns, but it would still give them a boost.

Any one of these changes would pump Ogryns up to possibly useful status. As it is now, they are too slow, too easy to kill, too many points for an enemy not to spend time shooting or assaulting, even if they aren't threatening your own units.

You could simply make them:

WS4 S4 T4/5 (natural girth, armour and chemical enhancements) I3 (slow) W1 A1 4+/6+ (bionics).

One attack, with some kind of 2 wound leader who has 2+1 attacks and two wounds. Price accordingly and give them a Chimera. gtg. They are big Orks, basically.

Problem with anything like this for Guard they get lost in the sea of Lasguns. I like the Command Squad bodyguard idea, or even adding one to Infantry squads. Maybe not Sergeants but basically any officer can take one along.

I think the ripper gun could be better.

I think that they die to easily is definitely the biggest issue that they'll need to overcome to be useful. I think that just going full tilt and making them T5 might be the easiest, as unfair as that would be to other races. I don't know if there are any other solutions.

I think the Bone'ead really should have more going for him. What armory equipment would be appropriate? In the new codex format it would be a (hopefully) though out but restrictive list.

What Taco suggests makes them just out to be Guard Orks, pretty much to a T. I don't think that's even a viable idea at all, it's sort of ridiculous actually. What next, Space Marines getting Necron-esque units? At least that would be closer upgrade to what they already are. Oh! Eldar with Tyranid-esque units, or Tau with Guardsmen (oh, wiat, they did that one already.....).

Ogryns have always been a unit on their own, very unique and different from just about anything else in the game, when put into context of what Army they are appart of. Their current main problem is being over priced, not very tough for a W3 unit, underpowered considering their role, ect.... In general, extra equipment is overpriced in the Imperial Guard, powerfists are 20pts, to take a S3 to a S6, which isn't a big deal considering that that just barely wounds basic SMs and Orks on a 2+, and only after striking last and then just a few attacks because only Officers can have them (one command squad could have two of them if they include a Commissar).

Just a quick question Taco, why do you need T 4/5 with only one wound per model? Yeah I see two wounds on the bonehead, but still.

I don't think unit cost is too much of an issue. While I think they're over priced I don't think its the main issue. If they simply did what they're suppose to they might actually be worth their points.

I say go full tilt and make them T5 but pay for the up in points. The only other thing would be to give them invulnerable saves and their isn't any way to justify it for anyone other than the bone'ead who's had cybernetic enhancements.

I think this for a basic Ogryn, at 25 to 30pts would be fair:
Ws4 Bs3 S5(6) T5 W2 I3 A2 Ld8 Sv5+

Nobz are about the same, stat wise ogryn would be better but don't have the special rules or weapon options. Ogryn are also burden with needing a commissar or officer to get onto a Chimera.

Ripper guns, should be S5 Ap6 R12" Assault 2. The things bigger than a bolter, that fact should be justified beyond clubbing people.

Also looking at the LatD, their big mutant was a knock off on Ogryns with upgrade options, but they could take flamers. Maybe give ogryns the options of taking flamers.

Bone'ead, counts as having bionics (6+ inv). He should be able to take a power fist or power weapon in addition to other options.

Do those and they'll be a good unit.

I think making them base toughness 5 and allowing the bone ead to take officer items will suffice. No price change is needed. Also make them stubborn. REmember a squad of 10 is 250 points. With a bone ead that is what...260. This is almost the same price as:

An Ork MOB with:
30 Orks
3 rokkits
1 nob with power klaw

250 points

Orks: 250 points: 31 wounds, 116 attacks on charge S4, and 4 fist attacks
OGRYN: 260 Points: 30 Wounds, 32 attacks on charge S6, and NO FIST ATTACKS

They are both suppposed to be assaulty units. They should both do about the same thing for such a similar price. Lets look at what happens now in one case.

Units Charge Marines with SGT with power fist

ORK Case:
Marine will have initiative on average they 9 marines kill
2 ORKs
the remaining 28 orks will kill roughly 9 marines
NOb will kill the remaining SGT and SGT with fist will kill one maybe two orks. ORK win via annihilation

ORGYN Case
Marines will go first and on averave wound 1.5 times we will be nice and say 1 wound.
10 Ogryn with leader will have 32 atttacks on a charge and average 4.44 dead marines. Since we are rounding down we will say 4. Then SGT with fist goes and will kill 1 which gets multiplied into 3.

Marines kill 4 (Without rounding (4.5))
Orgryn 4 (Without rounding (4.4))

So on average a 195 point tac squad which is not even supposed to be a h2h unit will defeat a 250+ point ogryn squad which is supposed to be badass.

NEED I SAY MORE: BROOOOOOOOOOOOOKEN!!!

Lets see what T5 does

9 marines that go first will kill 1 (Not 1.5)
ogryn still kill 4.44
Fist will wound 1 but not insta kill

Ogryn win 4.44 to 2.

Not nearly as devastating as orks though. Yet still the ogryn are more expensive than the orks.

Now lets use my recommendation
Ogryn at T5, I4, Bon'ead uses power weapon.

In this case Initiative is irrelevant because the 9 marines could not kill off a full ogryn.

9 standard Marines generate 1 wound
Ogryn on charge 28 attacks 3.89 (about 4 dead)
Bone ead w/ power wpn about 2 more wounds
Sgt w/ fist 1 more wound

Marines 2 wounds
Ogryn (about 6 wounds)

Marines need a 4 to pass and need to beat the ogryn init to not be mowed down. Keep in mind the ogryn unit is about 60 points more.

I rest my case.

foil7102 wrote:Just a quick question Taco, why do you need T 4/5 with only one wound per model? Yeah I see two wounds on the bonehead, but still.

tradition.

It is true that they are big and beefy, larger than a Nob. I honestly think all they need is a 4+ armour save and a points reduction. A Power Weapon/ Chain Fist for the Bone 'ead and some decent special weapons options and you are talking a good unit. W3 on a T4 chassis is their only weakness. They have S5. Larger than a Nob or a Big Mek, still a bit smaller than a Warboss.

This is what I would suggest.

Ogryns 100 points (4+ save, 5 points cheaper with free Bone 'ead)
4 Ogryns, 1 Bone 'ead
Ogryn WS4 BS3 S5/6 T4 W3 I3 A2 Ld8 4+
Bone 'ead WS4 BS3 S5/6 T4 W3 I3 A3 Ld9 4+
Up to 5 additional Ogryns can be added for 20 points each.

Up to two Ogryns may take a special weapon:
Flamer: 6 pts
Ogryn Heavy Stubber (Assault): 6? pts

The Bone 'ead may take the following upgrades:
Upgraded Ripper Gun (re-rolls to hit): 10 pts
Cyber-enhancement (FNP): 15 pts
Melta Bomb: 5pts

Part of the problem is they're paying for 3 wounds, but a lot insta-kills them. I'd suggest making them 1-2 wounds, but have FNP to compensate. This would allow them to shrug off more minor wounds, but still make them susceptible to anti-tank weapons.

FNP would not help because it does not work against things that instakill or ignore armor. So what would the point be.

The prime problem with Ogryns is they are too easy to take out, not their points over-price, necessarily. Something to make them less likely to suffer instant death is quite useful. Few weapons are above S8, only a few at S10 (I can only think of the Demolisher at the moment). If it were possible to make them toughness 4.5, wounded as a T4 or T5 perhaps, but 9 needed for instant death. Still vulnerable to anti-tank weapons, but not to power-fists for the most part. Knocking off their wounds isn't much help, you would have to make them worth less than a Space Marine to keep them competitive, and that's to only 2 wounds!

Ogryns are a lot of fun, but there is precious little fluff keeping them in the 40k universe, only slightly more than Ratlings (which are another little, if ever, used unit that is broken). So rarely seen in play, that if they were to disappear from the game, I don't think many people would complain. But I would!

After reading the current traffic; make them T5, drop 5pts per model.

kroot saper, ork nob, tyranid warrior.
all of the above have atleast 2+ wounds.
compare anogryn's size to them, he makes them look tiny.
im thinking 2 wounds each (3 for bone 'ead) T5, S5.
FNP would be nice, but not needed, allowing the bone 'ead wargear would work well too.

this unit looks great, but thier stats have been screwed up.

Toughness 5 makes a difference where it most counts and only has a minimal impact in other situations.

Ratlings are another casualty of GW's neglect. Its a failure on the part of GW to neither update their rules or models.

i know, and ratlings and ogryns are the only reason would collect a IG army.

I love the rats still. Had I not hung up my gaurd until the new dex I would probably try to incorporate them with the new rules.

I love the rats still. Had I not hung up my gaurd until the new dex I would probably try to incorporate them with the new rules.

I think all the stuff GW is rumored to have planned goes a long way to making a futuristic army, but its the Ogryn and Ratlings are really what make the IG a 40k army. Without both the is just humans in space and not the Imperial Guard.

Give T5

And RENDING

They are starting to sound like T5 stormtroopers. If they are to become one wound then they need a better weapon. Seriously, 1 W with a 12 in. shot.... not that great. Give them access to some special weapons in a officers retinue, then ok you have my attention. Otherwise I think they'd be worse than taking them now.

Who said 1 W? I've only seen 2W and 3W for Bone'eads.
While I agree with what you want to give them the rationale seem misplaced.

I personally think Ripper guns should be, S5.

The built in weakness of an Ogryn is first their minimal armor save and their size which make them easy to draw line of sight. Stormtroopers are better guardsmen and maintain a more middle of the road but master of nothing approach to being elites, while Ogryns are heavy hitting assualt elites.

I really see not a single reason to making them less than W3. If someone can give one good rational reason.....

I just realised, the back of the rulebook has a complete set of charts for all the armies. Does anyone know if these charts are still accurate with the new Space Marine codex? I am guessing that GW wouldn't go against their nice new shiny rulebook for the Imperial Guard, so my guess is that there won't be any change to the stats of the units, however the special rules are not listed.

would hate to see these guys go...
...bellow are a list of things that could be used to improve them (i don't think they need all be used, but which ones to pick)

... make them a troop choice ...

...give them the 'relentless' special rule ...

... let them take a Ogryn heavy weapons, normal heavy weapon with range -12" x2 shots. ie Ogryn LasCannon range 24" S:9 AP:2 Heavy2...

...let them spred out wounds (might need special base to keep track)...

...'feel no pain' special rule...

...ignore difficult terrain rolls, they can always move up to 6"... unless they roll a 1 then some ones fallen over, take a wound, unit stay where it is...

...'der's sum t'ing in 'ere' special rule lets ogyns pull people out of their transported (easier do to open topped, hard the high the vehicals rear armour)...



Just hope that these guys are still in when the IG codex comes out (some time in jan if you believe the rumors). IG just wouldn't be the same -Tri-

dietrich wrote:Part of the problem is they're paying for 3 wounds, but a lot insta-kills them. I'd suggest making them 1-2 wounds, but have FNP to compensate. This would allow them to shrug off more minor wounds, but still make them susceptible to anti-tank weapons.

smart_alex wrote:FNP would not help because it does not work against things that instakill or ignore armor. So what would the point be.

Should they be insta-killed by a lascannon? I think they should, so yes, FNP wouldn't help. FNP would help when they get shot up by heavy bolters, lasguns, etc. Sorry, I didn't add, "with a drop in the point cost to my original post", but it's what I was thinking. People see W3, and think, "any model with three wounds has a lot going for it". But, they don't, because people shoot them them anti-tank weapons and they die. Making them W2, should drop the point value, even while getting FNP.

I like the T5 idea, but that means they're shrugging off lascannon shots, and I think that should stay the domain of Warbosses. And I don't want to see the obliterator T 4(5), but that's an option.

Time for simple test folks.

This won't take long, especially if you have the new Black Reach set and own a current Ogryn model, and makes this whole thread redundant and explains why base T5 for Ogryn is the only solution for the 'Ogryn Problem'.



Firstly, get the Black Reach Warboss. Place him in front of you and make sure his back is facing you.

Ok, next, take your Ogryn model, and place the Ogryn model next to the Warboss, and make sure that the Ogryn's back is also facing you.

You should now have two models that are facing away from you, like they were disrespecting your crew (or something).

Ok, now ask yourself the following questions:

1. Which of the two models is larger, specifically in girth.
2. Which of these models is T5 in the rules.

Here's a hint:

1. The Ogryn.
2. The Warboss.

So the smaller Warboos is T5 and the larger Ogryn is T4.


Do we see a problem here?


There are very few things in this game that are alive and are the same size as Ogryn. They are massive, and deserving of T5 base like a Warboss.

BYE

My Guardsmen are as tall as or taller than my Space Marines.... does that mean they should be T4 and S4? Even GW admits their models are not to scale compared to eachother, just take the Rhino as an example of that! I don't disagree that Ogryns should have T5 or something akin to T4.5, so at least they aren't getting instant deathed ALL the time (seriously, that seems to be the only thing they do!). Making them cheaper, even at T5 would be good too, seriously, 25ppm for a unit that has SV5+? Three wounds does not equal three times the price of the same model with one wound, you don't get equal number of attacks, equal number of shots, or equal amount of wounds causable in close combat or to be outnumbered, not to mention you are subject to instant death! 20pts, max, even at T5 is my suggestion.

GW always overcosts extra wounds.

And GW has been trying to scale things correctly recently. It started when they made Dwarfs and Gobbos the right size. They're using their CAD program for good instead of evil and putting things to scale (the Warboss is huge next to the Black Lagoon guys).

And the Ogryn is bigger than him. Much bigger.

BYE

I'm HBMC on this even if we pretend that GW's scale is really really off and we take that into consideration we'd still end up with an Ogryn equal in "girth" to Warboss, instead of being larger. I think that's assuming a pretty big deviation from scale.

Off topic, a Rhino will fit 10 marines they just can't have bases. I've seen at least two instances where people got 10 marines inside by only repositioning arms and legs and not converting to change proportions.The only change to the Rhino were additional seats. So the Rhino is cramped but not impossible.

aka_mythos wrote:I think the ripper gun could be better.

I think that they die to easily is definitely the biggest issue that they'll need to overcome to be useful. I think that just going full tilt and making them T5 might be the easiest, as unfair as that would be to other races. I don't know if there are any other solutions.

I think the Bone'ead really should have more going for him. What armory equipment would be appropriate? In the new codex format it would be a (hopefully) though out but restrictive list.

Whats wrong with T5? Make them akin to Tyrant guard or just slightly weaker (with appropriate cost). The Ogryn models in WFB are appropriately sized. Make Ogryns mini MC's (with appropriate price). It makes them different than rough riders, very fluffy, and a non-standard unit.

Ogryn - 25 Points per Model:
WS4 BS3(6) S5 T5 W3 I4 A3 Ld8 Sv4+
WS4 BS3(6) S5 T5 W3 I4 A4 Ld9 Sv4+ (Bone 'Ead)

Squad: 5-10 Ogryn

Weapons: Ripper Gun

Options: One model may upgrade to a Bone 'Ead for +10 points. A Bone 'Ead has X, Y, Z options.

Special Rules: Furious Charge, Ripper Guns

Ripper Guns: Despite being BS3, Ogryn are treated as being BS6 when they fire their Ripper Guns as they fire so many shots it is difficult for the Ogryn to miss.

R12" S4 AP4 Assault 2

BYE

HBMC, why not put the ripper guns/BS in line with Orks?

proposed as above but, BS2 [akin to ork]
Ripper Gun (aka Shotcannon)
Str 5 AP- R12 Assault 3 [akin to a biggie sized marine shotgun + 1 shot]
The higher strength and A3 nature are balanced by the orklike BS.

If the Bone'Ead had the option to take a power weapon and Ogryn were BS5 instead of 6, I would use Ogryn as HBMC described.

I could work with that as well, although it conflicts with the AP4.

Didn't rippergun used to have the description of being a full auto shogun?

Well I said it before I'll say it again ripper gun: S5 AP6 Assault 2

frazzled wrote:Whats wrong with T5? Make them akin to Tyrant guard or just slightly weaker (with appropriate cost). The Ogryn models in WFB are appropriately sized. Make Ogryns mini MC's (with appropriate price). It makes them different than rough riders, very fluffy, and a non-standard unit.

I was just voicing that I thought if there were an alternative to making them T5 that would be my first choice. I have since come to the conclusion their isn't. T5 is good I think it suits Ogryns in all regards and is perfectly fair as long as they maintain their 5+ save.

Frazzled wrote:HBMC, why not put the ripper guns/BS in line with Orks?

Orks have trouble hitting with machine guns. Ogryn don't miss because their Machine Guns fire so many shots.

I am basing this off 2nd Ed, where Ripper Guns had a stupidly short range, and at 6" Auto-Hit their targets. Now we can't have autohit, but BS3(6) - or 5 if you want - represents that about as best as I can in this edition of the rules. It also only applies to Ripper Guns, so if you go and give your Bone 'Ead a Storm Bolter or Plasma Pistol, he's BS3.

BYE

I like HBMC's Ogryns, and his new avitar, very shway. The points seem balanced to the stats, the increased toughness and attacks, initiative too, all makes more sense. As for the BS3(6), not sure if that's prudent. More shooting would be reflected in the number of rounds from the weapon (only Ogryns can take Ripper Guns), so either increase those shots, or just take all the other benefits and be happy about them. Ripper gun looks good, maybe Assault 3 instead of 2. Let Bone 'eads have powerfists (it is only one powerfist that actually matters in all of the Imperial Guard, come on!) at regular cost, and I would be content, Ogryns would be highly regarded, and the Imperial Guard will benefit all around. The only instance I could see an issue is in Mega Battles or Apocalypse Battles, where the near unlimited number of their squads (I have been told there is a section outlining an Ogryn army too?) might throw off their points balance... meaning they might even be too cheap enmasse.

I wouldn't worry about Apoc when it comes to balancing choices. Apoc is inherently unbalanced, and just because you can take 50 Bone 'Eads in an Apoc game doesn't mean you should penalise one Bone 'Ead in a standard 1850 game.

BYE

I also think that the Bone Ead SHould be WS5. Just like many of the leaders in the marines codex. Other than that HBMC's idea is not bad at all. Closely matches my suggestion.

I'm thinking something of Ogryns as lesser Monstrous Creatures.

Ogryn: WS4 BS2 S5 T4 W2 I3 A3(4) Ld8 Sv4+
Feel No Pain, Eternal Warrior, Stupid (Stubborn)

Squad = 3 to 10 models, 22 pts each

Ripper Gun = R12" S4 AP6 Assault 3 Rending; counts as CCW
Ripper Blade = Rending CCW


My basic idea was to make them cheap but very nasty up close:

BS2 because they shouldn't be encouraged to shoot
S5 as they're going to be Rending
T4 as they're just big humans
W2 to keep the points costs down
A3 Ld8 Sv4+ because they need to be Assault troops

FNP and EW keep them in the fight instead of giving T5.

Rending removes the need for the +1S, and lets them clean up like they should.

Seems you are good at something DD after all - you're the king of understatements.

So, "just big humans". Never seen an Ogryn model up close before have you? They're about as "just big humans" as Hive Tyrants are "just big Gaunts".

Besides, even if we ignore all that, the single problem that remains with Ogryn is the fact that despite having W3 they are as fragile as anything. Adding FNP does nothing to solve that problem, because the things that are wiping them out quickly now will ignore the FNP.

T5 is the only answer, other than making them Eternal Warriors or giving them a 4+ Invul save, both of which make no sense.

BYE

JohnH.
Respectively. While I am ok with your format (and pricing is appropriate), I prefer a BS2/S5/T5 combo:
*It follows fluff where Ogryns are portrayed as large, extremely, tough, and extremely strong. I am also referencing the FW chaos ogryns that are wielding items such as pulled out street signs.
*Gaming. Its something more unusual. It’s a very tough, uncommon unit that does damage in HTH. Their strengths are balanced via points cost and lack of power weapons.
*It sets it apart more from the rough riders, which are currently cheaper power weaponed counter assault. This is a higher valued higher priced counterpart to that.
*Rippa gun. Although I prefer a short ranged assault heavy bolter I could also see the argument of lesser effectiveness but higher defacto WS due to the spray effect. I would not give this an AP bonus however as its anti-theme (aka a wide spray pattern weapon does not have armor penetrative capacity by its very nature-birdshot vs. slugs).

HBMC: I can see the ET/FNP combo (especially in concerns the price per unit). However for the reasons above I too agree with a T5 construct.

@ HBMC : Obviously.

@ DD : Your suggestion is terrible... Eternal Warrior seems to fill the bill pretty well, but making them lose a wound just makes them easier to knock off, even with Eternal Warrior. Fell No Pain is usefull, but considering what would be used on Ogryns, then it becomes a moot option.

The more we discuss this, the more I am in agreeance that T5 IS the only option, in addition to the other points already made. It would be nice to see Rending get applied to either the Ogryn Close Combat Weapon/Rippergun in close combat, or to the Rippergun itself when firing (that's a big freakin' shotgun!).

Frazzled wrote:HBMC: I can see the ET/FNP combo (especially in concerns the price per unit). However for the reasons above I too agree with a T5 construct.

I'm not saying that wouldn't work, I'm saying that it makes no sense, or, really, less sense.

See, Ogryn really should be getting insta-killed by things like Krak Missiles and Lascannons. It'd be odd if they could shrug them off but Terminators couldn't (and Termies need T4(5) W2, but that's a story for another thread), however, if they can be Insta-killed by S8, then they cease to be effective as a HTH combat unit. This is the "Ogryn Problem", and as I've said whenever it comes up, there is no perfect solution to this.

The three I've tried:

1. 4+(I) save for the unit (a 'Faiff in Da Empruh' save).
2. Immunte to Instant Death (w/ or w/o Feel No Pain).
3. Toughness 5.

The first one is, honestly, the easiest to justify from a fluff perspective. The Emperor is supposed to manifest himself in miraculous ways, so I could see strong (dumb?) faith in the Emperor giving a level of protection. Problem is, as a solution to the Ogryn problem, it really isn't. It just means it takes 2 power fists hits to kill one rather than 1. They're still glass hammers. Slightly better glass hammers yes, but glass hammers nonetheless.

Option 2 certainly solves the problem, instantly, but... come on... Land Raider goes pop to a Railgun 25% of the time... and it takes three shots from one to off an Ogryn? No. While this does get rid of the fragility issue, it makes them too tough, because while we can live with them shrugging off Krak Missiles, we shouldn't even contemplate them shrugging off Railgun and Demolisher Cannon hits.

Option 3 is the best of a bad lot. Yes, we're left with the odd situation where a Lascannon or Meltagun won't kill one in a single shot, but at least they can survive a round of combat against an opponent who brings a fist and something that absolutley should be killing them - S10 weapons like Dreads, Kanz, Demolisher, Railguns, Warbosses - will kill them in a single hit.

This is the reason I side with the T5 idea, because it is the only one that comes close to solving the "Ogryn Problem" without compromising too much else.

BYE

I once suggested that Ogryn could have a "Resoundingly Tough" special rule, that, effectively, makes them T4.5. They are only effected by instant death by weapons of S9 or higher, such as lascannons.

Yeah, it's either that or something clunky like "EW when in close combat".

@Frazz: either way, Ogryns are still a problem unit. They've got these huge Ripper Guns, rather than a pure HtH build.

I'd rather bias them more towards a HtH build, so at least they fight well when they get stuck in. And that means 4+ attacks per model.

At range 12", I'm not quite sure how many players are going to use their Ogryns as a shooty force. One foot ranges are really for units that move to assault but end up just a bit short for it. Now, with the Run option instead of shooting, you may not even see Ripper Guns being used much at all! That is not saying I abdicate AP4 Ripper Guns, though. Besides, what assault weapons do other shooty forces get? There are plenty out there with better weapons, Dark Eldar come to mind.

Hi guys, here's my take on the Ogryns:

(0-1 Elite choice)
Ogryn, 25 points
WS: 4 BS: 2 S: 5 T:4(5) W:2 I:3 A:2 Ld:8 Sv: 5+

Ogryn Bone ‘Ead. +10 points (Up to 1 model may take this upgrade)
WS: 4 BS: 3 S:5 T:4(5) W:3 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv: 5+

Unit Composition: Between 5 and 10 Ogryns.

Wargear: Flak Armor, Ripper Guns, Frag Grenades

Ogryn Bone ‘Eads may take a power weapon for +5 points, a Power Fist for +25 points, carapace armor for +5 points, or heavy armor for +25 points.

Ripper Guns: Str 4 Ap5 Range: 12” Assault 3. These guns are essentially souped up shotguns. If this weapon would ignore a model’s armor save, add 2 to the Str of this weapon. Also, as they are solid chunks of metal in addition to being a weapon, they give Ogryns the special rule Furious Charge.

Special Rules:
Adrenaline Rush: Ogryns live for combat, as they don’t really have any other use! When in combat, Ogryns have a toughness of 5 instead of 4. In combat, the toughness of 5 is used for instant death purposes.
Bulky: Ogryns are large abhumans. As such, in transports they count as 2 models.

(Heavy Armor gives the Ogryn Bone ‘Ead a 3+ save)
----

Okay, so that was my take. These guys can still be insta-gibbed by Lascannons and whatnot, but Str 8 will not instant kill them anymore.

Normal Ogryns have BS2, but their guns are Assault 3. To represent the Bone 'Ead being smarter, I have given it BS3, and some other stat boosts. Being shotguns, they don't have really good AP, but if they hit you, you're dead as they have Str 6 when they pierce armor, to represent that "punch" that shotguns have.
They're kind of big Orks, really. This is quite honestly how I see them though, to be totally honest.

Feel free to rip this apart.

It's not a bad rule set really, but S8 weapons would still inta-kill out of close combat, and you reduced their number of wounds to 2, which doesn't make much sense considering they have always had W3 and comparable models have W3. BS2 instead of 3 doesn't help your arguement, as the Rippergun is supposed to compensate by having a high ROF, though that's not a big deal when you boost the number of shots to 3. Still over-priced however, and the extra special rules don't really help, but do add some flavor.

Ogryn, 24 points/model
WS 4 BS 3 S 5 T 5(4) W 3 I 2 A 2 Ld 9 Sv 5+

Ogryn Bone ‘Ead.
WS 4 BS 3 S 5 T 5(4) W 3 I 3 A 3 Ld 10 Sv 5+

Unit Composition: Between 5 and 10 Ogryns. One Ogryn may be upgraded to Bone' Ead at +10 points.

Wargear: Flak Armor, Ripper Guns.

Ripper Guns: 12" Str 5 AP 5 Heavy 4.

Special Rules:
Furious Charge, Stubborn, Relentless
Tough: Ogryns count as Toughness 4 for all purposes, except for calculating Instant Death, where they are treated as Touhgness 5.
Bulky: Each Ogryn takes up two spaces in a transport.

@Vlad: There is nothing "broken" nor Fluff-rare to suggest that Ogryns need a 0-1 restriction. Indeed, Ogryns could be made Scoring, and they'd still be fair.

@MinMax: I still don't see the need for big Guardsmen with HEAVY 4 guns. BS2 with Assault 4 guns would be better. Also, let them *fight*!

JohnHwangDD wrote:@MinMax: I still don't see the need for big Guardsmen with HEAVY 4 guns. BS2 with Assault 4 guns would be better. Also, let them *fight*!

Well, that's why they have Relentless. They treat Heavy weapons as Assault.

Right, but why make the gun Heavy and then give Relentless, when it's easier to make it Assault and not bother with a USR?

The fewer rules you need, the better, I think.

Do you guys mind if this one throws his hat into this mix?

well lets take a step back and look at this from a more fluffy perspective.

1. Ogryns are essentially humans who have lived on high gravity worlds through the course of generations.

2. Your Average Ogryn is a huge monster compared to a guardsman.

3. They are kind of devolved into like ape like people with huge muscles (some of the models have huge bandages on the face that would probably be the size of the face of a guardsman.

4. Orgryns are bigger then most orks except the Warboss.

Now lets look it from a more gaming perspective.

1. They are essentially the same price as at least third edition terminators (I don't actually own much of the newer stuff but I know what I am tlaking about so bare with me!)

2. killed very easily by weapons that are 8 or higher

3. They are shock troops yet very rarely do they prove their worthfulness

4. Guns suck.

Ok so knowing all of that what conclusions can we come up with.

well since Ogryns are priced as Terminators shouldn't they be as useful as terminators? like if I was to pit a Ogryn up against a Terminator shouldnt it be a stand still? IT SHOULD because afterall the guards had to pay for it with the same amount of points.

T4 is perfect for the Ogryn because fluff wise they really are just overgrown humans and they don't have the tough green skin that Orks do.

When I think of the Ogryn I can just imagine an Ogryn getting shot at with a missle and he just grabbing it and throwing it into the ground, unfortunatly the rules do not reflect this!

They need better close combat rules after all whenever I see those models I am thinking "boy wouldn't want to F*** with them" but they just seem to make all the orks laugh even though an Ogryn should make the Green skins run away in fear

Their guns suck and so they should afterall they aren't geared for shooting the Rats are.

So Coming to this conclusion I have a new set of rules, please feel free to criticize.

Ogryn Pts WS BS S T W I A Ld armor
23 5 3 5 4 2 3 3(4) 8 6+/4+* see below

SPECIAL RULES:

You's poke yer eye out wit dat thing!: During the Assault Phase when the Ogryn unit is in combat with an enemy unit the Ogryns may attempt to stop their opponents attacks (this could represent grabbing their arms, taking the weapons or other ways os brutal thuggary). After your opponent declares his number of attacks each Ogryn model may choose to give up one of his attacks take away one of his opponents. If you choose to do this then the Ogryns attack will be reduced to two for the remainder of the turn (without charging). Roll a D6 for each attempt on a roll of 4+ your Ogryn succeeded in grabbing the poor buggers arm (or what have you) on a 3 or less then the model managed to avoid the attempt. If your opponent has powerfists then no D6 is needed (they are much too slow to charge up the fist to be able to stave off the attack effectivly). If your opponent has Initiative 6 or higher or Strength 6 or higher then this cannot be attempted (The Opponent is either too quick to grab or strong enough to get out of the creatures grasp).

(I've decided on this rule because I can just picturing an Ogryn unit treating their smaller opponents as if they were nothing)

Ripper Gun: This gun is known for its fame amongst Ogryn units and even though its a huge weapon many Ogryn use them as if they are Lasguns. When in close comabt however the Ripper Gun is a deadly weapon that is likely to knock an opponent unconcious just by the mere size of it. Therefore whenever a Ripper Gun is used in close combat it always wound on a 3+ and reduces an opponents armor save by 1 (imagine getting hit with one of these in armor!). In the Hands of an Ogryn however these weapons become even more deadlier and Ogryns therefore get +1 attack as they have trained with these weapons and know quite well how to use them.


Ripper Gun Range Strength AP Type
18" 4 6 Assault

( I think the guns should have increased range but should be geared more towards close combat)

Fleet of Foot: As in the Warhammer rule book

(They are big so shouldnt their steps be large?)

Keep your heads down!: Ogryns are big, very big, and therefore are able to see things like Lascannon blasts and Rokkets espcially when they are flying right at em. Ogryns well attempt to dodge away from these things. Therefore to represent this whenever an Ogryn is shot at by a heavy weapon (not mounted on a Tank) then they get a 4+ Invulranble save to represent the Ogryn avoiding the attack.

(This should be necessary to prevent heavy weapons fire from enemy infantry that would instant kill them)


So there you go some rules might be a little bit overdone and others a little bit underdone but the major points are

Ogryns are not Orks
Ogyrns are geared for CC
and Ogryns are the same price as Terminators for the Emperor's sake they should be as tough for that price!

I also wanted to make Ogryns playable again, I think people should look at them as shock troops or even defensive close combat units that you can use to help hold your lines. Ogryns look like monsters and I will be the first to say I think I would stand up better against an Ork then an Ogryn and rules should represent that. There should also be a doctrine that allows you to field more Ogryn if you come from a high gravity world like they get their points reduced to 18 and they lose one attack but they must be a mandatory troop choice in that army? anyways for another thread....

I'm not one to favour a special rule heavy unit myself.

I think the easiest solution would be to cut their cost in half and reduce them to 2 wounds, anti tank weapons and powerfists can still insta kill them but the unit will have 25% more wounds for the same price and instant death will inflict 33% less wounds. Maybe add an additional attack as well.

I'm also in favout of allowing them a squad support weapon, say a heavy flamer as that feels appropriate for them.

Jack

Hmmm...

Taking another look at it:

(0-2 Elite)

Ogryn, 22 points
WS: 4 BS: 2 S: 5 T:4(5) W:2 I:3 A:2 Ld:8 Sv: 5+

Ogryn Bone ‘Ead. +10 points (Up to 1 model may take this upgrade)
WS: 4 BS: 3 S:5 T:4(5) W:3 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv: 5+

Unit Composition: Between 5 and 10 Ogryns.

Wargear: Flak Armor, Ripper Guns, Frag Grenades

Ogryn Bone ‘Eads may take a power weapon for +5 points, a Power Fist for +25 points, carapace armor for +5 points, or heavy armor for +25 points. Also, Ogryn squads led by a Bone 'Ead is a scoring unit.

Ripper Guns: Str 4 Ap5 Range: 12” Assault 4. These guns are essentially souped up shotguns. If this weapon would ignore a model’s armor save, add 2 to the Str of this weapon. Also, as they are solid chunks of metal in addition to being a weapon, they give Ogryns the special rule Furious Charge.

Special Rules:
Stubborn.
Adrenaline Rush: Ogryns live for combat, as they don’t really have any other use! When in combat, Ogryns have a toughness of 5 instead of 4. In combat, the toughness of 5 is used for instant death purposes.
Bulky: Ogryns are large abhumans. As such, in transports they count as 2 models. In addition, since Ogryns are incredibly huge, ranged weapons with a Str of 8 only inflict 1 wound against Ogryns, and weapons with a Str of 9 or higher only inflict 2 wounds.

(Heavy Armor gives the Ogryn Bone ‘Ead a 3+ save)

Let's try again, starting with base statlines:

IG Ogryn WS4 BS2 S4(5) T4 W2 I3 A3 Ld8 Sv4+ Rippergun (S4 AP- A3 Rending) w/ Furious, Rending, Stubborn

Now compare:
SM4 Scout WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1(2) Ld8 Sv4+ BP&CCW = 13 pts w/ Infiltrate, Scout

-1 pt for BS2
+1 pt for S5
+3 pts for W2
-1 pts for I3
+2 pts for A3
+2 pts for Rippergun
+3 pts for extra USR
-2 for NOT Scoring

Based on a (old, underpriced) SM Scout, an Ogryn should cost 20 pts.


Now compare with a Generic Daemon

CSM Daemon WS4 BS0 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld10+ Sv5++ CCW = 13 pts Summoned, Fearless, Invulnerable

+2 for BS2
+3 for W2
-1 for I3
-2 for Ld8
+1 for Sv4+
+2 pts for A3
+3 for Rippergun
0 for rules
-2 for NOT Scoring

This gives a cost of 19 pts for an Ogryn.


So I think we should be looking at Ogryns in the 15 to 20 pt range. More than 20 pts probably is too expensive. At that point, you're talking about an Assault Marine or Raptor.

Here is the solution to the instant death problem:

Bulky. In close combat all hits from one model that is not a monsterous creature of a vehicle must be allocated to a single Ogryn.

OR (the same thing)

Bulky. In close combat all hits from any one infantry, jump infantry, cavalry or bike model must be allocated to a single Ogryn.

How it works.

Missile launchers and lascannon kill them as normal.
Dreads kill them as normal
Deffrollas kill them as normal.
(essentially) Terminators kill them as normal - due to massed powerfists

But a guy with a powerfist/klaw cannot leap about from Ogryn to Ogryn killing them all, being big they are hard to get around, you often need to meak as sidestep if one falls and are more widely spaced out.

I think a simpler rule is T4(5)

Tough: Ogryns count as T5 in close combat. Dreadnaughts, Deffrollas, and Monstrous Creatures are usually S5+ with Powerfists anyhow, so the problem is solved. No point making a rule that can become complicated when people look for exceptions or where things don't perfectly fit. If the Ogryn is taking wounds from close combat during the assault phase, they are T5.

We still have an exception to an exception. They're T5, except they're not, because they're T4(5), except in combat that is, where they are T5.

It's just so much simpler for them to be T5 and be done with it.

BYE

Agreed.

Doubly agreed.

John is right to say Ogryn are too expensive for what you get. Leave the point cost alone, but make them actually worth those points.

Made some grammar and spelling fixes to my first post, and added a big ugly Guardsmen.

H.B.M.C. wrote:We still have an exception to an exception. They're T5, except they're not, because they're T4(5), except in combat that is, where they are T5.

It's just so much simpler for them to be T5 and be done with it.

BYE

Jervis, is that really you?

T5 is a bad call, lascannon should be able to take them down. You are overcompensating.

The point of the problem with Ogryn survivability is how devastating powerfists are against them. Upping toughness in any order doesnt work as while big Ogryns are essentially human in physiology, in many respectsd marines are tougher an ork of the same size (Warboss) certainly would be. if orks can only grow the odd T5, why should humies grow a whole race of T5.
I have no problems with the odd T5 Ogryn special character, likely as a bionic upgrade.

Any higher than T4 doesnt fit. Besides tougher in close combat doesnt maske sense either, if it is T4 against the lasgun, its T4 against the bayonet.

The Bulky proposed rule makes sense simply because their size procludes taking out several at once. It itches where is scratches and makes sense. T5 in close combat is a crass rule that covers all close combat, not ther issue that needs fixing. T5 total is an over-reaction.

Orlanth wrote:Jervis, is that really you?

Were you any other man I would kill you where you stood... uhh... typed.

Orlanth wrote:T5 is a bad call, lascannon should be able to take them down. You are overcompensating.

I never said it was a good idea.

Once again, there is no good solution to the 'Ogryn Problem'. There are simply a list of bad solutions, some less bad than others. T5 is the least bad.

Furthermore I go back to the size comparison between Ogryn and other T5 or better models. Compare them to Warbosses. Compare them to Tyrant Guard. Ogryn are beasts. I have no issue with them being T5.

BYE

I'm actually going to say this; T5 is a good solution.

That being said, it is not a PERFECT solution. The perfect solution would be T4.5 for instant death purposes, or some such, in my opinion. However there are those who believe that that is too complicated. If you ask me, it is actually pretty simple, and would only come up when instant death applies. Example:

Gamer A (attacking Player) : Passed my roll to wound and that weapon is strength 8, Ogryn toughness 4, no armor save, so that is Instant Death!

Gamer 1 (Ogryn Player) : Actually, Ogryn counts as having T4.5 for Instant Death, so you would need Strength 9 weapon to do that. Minus one wound.

Gamer A : That is so bs, DUDE!!! Imperial Guard is so CHEESE NOW! That's stupid, I HATE YOU! I am NEVER playing against Imperial Guard again, they are so CHEAP!!! Ogryns should be toughness 2! They're only humans, and they're really stupid! They should be toughness 2 and cost 156,000 points a model! They get all these benefits in close combat! They should instant death to failed difficult terrain tests! They're so bs!!! I paid +5pts for that weapon I used! Everyone should instant death to it! Even Abbadon and Warbosses, armor value 23 should just melt away to my +5pts weapon! That is so STUPID!!! I'm quitting 40k now and going home to play Halo 2! This is so bs!! GW is ruining this game every way they can imagine (continued rantings).

Or, Gamer A: Okay then, I fire my lascannons at you.

Gamer 1: (Removes several Ogryns from play)

Don't just assume that every player is going to complain. It's not like Ogryns are that big of a deal anyway. :S


There are rules that are much much more confusing than this.

@ Vlad : Well, A, I was trying to be humorously exaggerative, I don't think many gamers would be very upset to find out that their shots only inflicted one wound. B: That example does not cover S8 weapons as is the focus of misconceptions that an Ogryn would only be T4 on their stats (instead of T4.5 since there are no precedences for that).

Resoundingly Tough : Ogryns are tough codgers, and very belligerent to the idea of dying quietly! In cases of Instant Death, a weapon of Strength 9 is required, unless otherwise stated. [I have encountered a few weapons (none come to mind ATM) that inflict Instant Death regardless of the model's Toughness, such as victims of Rending].

I wonder about the idea of Ogryns being immune to Rending.... What are the rules exactly for Monstrous Creatures? I think they are immune to Rend AND Instant Death? I'm not at home at the moment so I don't have my Rulebook....

How about this:

Rugged
When an ogrin suffers a wound from a streinght 8 weapon it does not suffer instant death but takes D3 wounds instead, this has no effect on weapons that automaticlly cause instant death.

This gives them a 2/3 chance of surviving PF and krak attacks without making them too powerfull... I think. How about you?

EDIT: major spelling issues

Everyone keeps coming up with slight variations on special rules that all equate to exceptions to rules.

Wouldn't it be better to have a simple elegant solution that requires no special rules and no exceptions to exceptions?

T5 is that solution.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:Everyone keeps coming up with slight variations on special rules that all equate to exceptions to rules.

Too complicated? Didnt stop us before. Didnt stop GW for writing IIRC four different rulesets for Terminators to deepstrike in one edition. The proposed alt rules for Ogryns are not excessively complicated or out of pattern with special rules for other units. In fact as a trend many units now have more in the way of special rules, Sternguard and Vanguard come to mind here.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wouldn't it be better to have a simple elegant solution that requires no special rules and no exceptions to exceptions?

Steamlining is good yes? So you are a fan of Codex CSM then. No clans, no craftworlds, etc. Of course you will want IG to have no doctrines without a corresponding special character, just to make it fit in with the rest.

Is this really how you think

I'm with H.B.M.C., if they're statline/price not changing is important (for some reason) then why bother with a new rule, either go T5 or Eternal Warrior, not some halfway inbetween choice. It's a better design decision.

Jack

At the most convoluted, they should be toughness 4 (5 in CC) - akin to something like the SM on Bike.

At its simplest, use a pre-existing rule like Eternal Warrior (or toughness 5!). For something that cost 25 points (and this can be adjusted) and for a full squad with Bone 'Ead costs equal to three squad of infantry and a JO + retinue with 20 points left to spare.

At this price, they either deserve a special rule or toughness 5.

Unless we give them some ridiculous rule that will let them do some sort of unspeakable thing, then 25pts will be far too much. I would hazard T5 AND 15-20ppm, more than 20 just starts making them run up hill against the odds of survival.

Skinnattittar wrote:Unless we give them some ridiculous rule that will let them do some sort of unspeakable thing, then 25pts will be far too much. I would hazard T5 AND 15-20ppm, more than 20 just starts making them run up hill against the odds of survival.

Indeed, they cannot realistically cost much more then 3 guardsmen (whatever that may be end up as in the new book)...

Jack

Oh Orlanth... I expected so much more of you than... than this.



Tsk tsk.

Orlanth wrote:Too complicated? Didnt stop us before. Didnt stop GW for writing IIRC four different rulesets for Terminators to deepstrike in one edition.

And that's something we should avoid, yes?

Orlanth wrote:The proposed alt rules for Ogryns are not excessively complicated or out of pattern with special rules for other units. In fact as a trend many units now have more in the way of special rules, Sternguard and Vanguard come to mind here.

But it's completely unecessary. T5 solves the problem. It's not a great solution but then again there is no great solution to the Ogryn problem, as I keep saying. T5 is an elegant solution that requires no special rules, not exceptions to exceptions and no ambiguity. Why is that a bad thing?

Orlanth wrote:Steamlining is good yes? So you are a fan of Codex CSM then.

Oh dear...

Orlanth, this isn't even remotley a similar issue. What's worse is that you know that. This is about solving (as best we can) a problem with a broken unit - Ogryn. Ogryn don't work because despite their W3 they are very fragile models. To combat this we must find a solution to this problem, and the best way to do that is the KISS method. T5 is the simplest method. It's got nothing to do with GW blandifying the Chaos Codex so don't even try to make the comparison.

And I'm not a fan of the CSM Codex because it lost its flavour. It's boring. It's not interesting. It's dull. As a Codex however people can still make half-way decent lists out of it, they're just as boring as bat $hit.

Orlanth wrote:No clans, no craftworlds, etc.

*sigh*

I am really surprised this is coming from you.

Orlanth wrote:Of course you will want IG to have no doctrines without a corresponding special character, just to make it fit in with the rest.

Now you're just lying.

Of course I want Doctrines. I want Doctrines to be a platoon-by-platoon thing.

And I don't want them tied to special characters.

Have I not made it clear enough in the past few months just how much I utterly despise Jervis' love affair with Special Characters and how they're ruining each Codex, especially because army-altering rules are now attached to them?

When I make comments (and I have made comments about this) about Doctrines being tied to Special Characters, it's not because I want that to happen, it's because I think that that is what is going to happen because it makes the most sense given GW's history. Does't make me happy about it.

Orlanth wrote:Is this really how you think

Of course not. And you fething know that Orlanth.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh Orlanth... I expected so much more of you than... than this.

Dont worry. I know generally how you think and firmly agree and respectfully with you.

This is the point of my post. What you offered was quite out of character. Not the T5 idea, that is in its own way potentially plausible (you havent given a background based justification yet though) along with the many other suggestions onn this thread but the methodology of thinking.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Is this really how you think

Of course not. And you fething know that Orlanth.

Indeed I do.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
But it's completely unecessary. T5 solves the problem. It's not a great solution but then again there is no great solution to the Ogryn problem, as I keep saying. T5 is an elegant solution that requires no special rules, not exceptions to exceptions and no ambiguity. Why is that a bad thing?

Right it is bad because it fixes part of the problem while breaking the rules elsewhere.

Let us run a list which of the following should kill and Ogryn outright:

-S4 powerfist single target only
-S4 powerfist ripping up several ogryns a turn
-S4 furious powerfist single target
-S4 furious powerfist ripping up ogryn
-meltagun
-missile launcher
-lascannon
-railgun

Looking at the various options:

1. T4.5, likely clarified as a rule saying S9 to instant kill.
Only the furious powerfist, lascanon and railgun instant kill

2. T4, T5 in close combat
Only meltagun, missile launcher, lascannon and railgun instant kill (all the ranged weapons listed, none of the close combat attacks)

3. Bulky: Close combat must be directed at one target only.
All instant kill except for multiple target fists.

4. T5
Only a railgun instant kills.

Can you honestly say that Option 4 makes the most sense, leaving out rule complexity. Frankly and in all honesty it makes the least sense to me. Powerfist should be able to gut ogryn, meltaguns certainly qualify.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Steamlining is good yes? So you are a fan of Codex CSM then.

Oh dear...

Orlanth, this isn't even remotley a similar issue.

In for a penny in for a pound. Ok, if you think Option 4 is the best for the purposes of game balance or background alone so be it. If not then my points stand.
T5 is simple granted, but it is simplistic, it does not (in my opinion) make Ogryn fair in game, nor does it allow proper adherence to prior or current background. Ogryn just are not that resilient.
The only excuse for T5, simplicity, is on the same level of simplicity as the various idiotic ideras which we both know fully well should never have been perpetrated by Gw studio.

H.B.M.C. wrote:What's worse is that you know that. This is about solving (as best we can) a problem with a broken unit - Ogryn. Ogryn don't work because despite their W3 they are very fragile models. To combat this we must find a solution to this problem, and the best way to do that is the KISS method. T5 is the simplest method. It's got nothing to do with GW blandifying the Chaos Codex so don't even try to make the comparison.

I disagree on both points.

T5 is not a boost, its a break. Suddenly IG will have one of the better assault units in the game cheap monsters with S5 attacks (but no armour negating I admit) that are very hard to kill. T5 is very powerful, most line weapon attacks will bounce, especially if a 4+ save is involved. High sttrength attacks also fail to take them down quicjkly. The only good weapons against Ogryn will be heavy bolters, and you will need a full set of hits and wounds to kill one. I am sorry Ogryn will be borken and cvan only be compensated for with a high points value that will make the unit unattractive again.
Now I certainly can see GW making the T5 rule, its typical of them, but it is far less typical of you.

Taking the CSM codex as our example, the old codex was accessible. I know of plenty of FLGS kids who put together lists without difficulty, and in general most chaos players liked to sift through the book to build something new.
As for the blandifying of the codexes, special character doctrines and all these other problems. They have been done under a watchword of simplification. Likely even Jervis doesnt want to rob players of their armies background, it is just that the designers think the books should be simplified for all, removing most special rules and unique options - but as usual adding a whole lot of new ones onto Space Marines, who are ever the exception.

Simplicity for the sake of simplicity being the common theme between the two. A good games designer should alwayslook for the elegant simple solution, but that is way away from the basic simplistic solution.

If you believe there is room for various daemons in the CSM codex rather than just the bland greater and lesser daemon, then by logic you should not be adverse to Ogryns having a special rule regarding instant kill. They are after all an elite slot unit and very few IG units have special rules. It would be no burden.

If you honestly think T5 is better please say so, but I dont think you have thought this through. Lascannon and meltaguns not instant killing Ogryn, that is the sort of sloppy mistake Jervis would make, and it would have far reaching consequences. IG would suddenly have a very powerful assault unit completely out of character with the army in all its prior incarnations. While you dislike the comments I make them because while the circumstances are different the mentality is similar. GW studio do not deliberately screw up the books they write, but they write them according to various dogmas, simplicity and standardisation being the current watchwords, with ridiculous results. Thus it is right for me to challenge when you claim simplicity for simplicities sake, yet you are a noted and respected critic of the brainfarts eminating from Nottingham from using exactly the same methodology.

I've thought it through. I've looked at the previous suggestions (FNP and T(5) and things like that) and saw that none of them solved the problem. I've looked at the current crop of solutions (T4.5, T5 in HTH and things like that) and saw that they all solved the problem, but in a clunky or inelegant manner that created needless new special rules or more exceptions to exceptions.

Then I got the Battle for Black Lagoon plastic Warboss, stood him next to my current-edition Ogryn, and went "Holy $hit! That Ogryn is huge!!!".

You're 100% correct when you say it doesn't make sense that Lascannons and Meltaguns will bounc off an Ogryn, and that only Railgins and Demolishers being able to insta-kill them doesn't make a lot of sense. But then I look at the Ork Warboss, see that he is T5, and then wonder what the big deal is.

I really do think that you're wrong when you say that Guard will get some of the 'best' HTH troops if they're made T5. They aren't. Ogryn can't kill anything. They're a wall. A tarpit unit in a small area. They have no armour save to speak of. One out of every two HB hits will take off a wound. They're not that tough.

They don't have power weapons. They don't have Invukl or FNP saves. They don't have a good armour save. They're just gig and tough, which is exactly what Ogryn should be.

T5 doesn't make them powerful, it makes them viable.

BYE

Ogryn are Ws4 and have S6 attacks quiaff.

The only thing they dont do well is take down heavy armoured troops. Ogryns as they stand are counterassult troops they are not very resileint but hit quite hard for a short time. IMHO this is correct for guard. Give thme too much resilience and they lose their vulnerability and bwecome tarpits with a good close combat attack, i.e assault units.

You could compensate for increasing the points value, but that would defeat the object of changing the unit. Ogryns are only importent in close combat because they have low I and therefore die to powerfists and monsters before they strike. Increase the toughness and you change the dynamic and the role, the same low price now encouraging use on a different scale.

Guard and Tau should not have a unit capable of sustained assault moves, it would make the army a hybrid assault/shooty army which is not the style at all.
Yes many better assault units exist, but in other lists without the benefits of Guard shooting.

Finally regarding the warboss to Ogryn comparison. Yes Ogryn are bigger but still basically human. All the squishy bits are there, just in large target format. what will kill a man will likely kill an Ogryn. The warboss on the other hand is an orkoid and naturalkly tougher. In many ways it is like comparing a medium sized statue of cast bronze against a larger statue of stone. The bronze statue is tougher.

Man, we're still on Ogryns?

The more I think about Ogryns in a Guard context, the more I think they just need to be bog simple and cheap, with minimal USRs. Just bump the statline and it's easy:
- S6 instead of FC & Rending
- T5 W2 instead of FNP & EW
- Ld9 instead of Stubborn

Ogryn
WS4 BS2 S6 T5 W2 I3 A4 Ld9 Sv5+ = 20 pts

Ripper Gun
R12" S4 AP- Assault 3 Rending

S6 A4 lets these guys throw out enough strong basic attacks to make them dangerous in HtH, usually wounding on 2+. T5 makes them very hard for S3 enemies, while also solving the SM PF problem. W2 Sv5+ helps keeps them cheap enough to be viable. BS2 A3 Rending gun gives them a solid Alpha strike.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Man, we're still on Ogryns?

Yes John. Sadly none of us are like you and therefore we are incapable of breezing from thread to thread, making statements with no support, immediately declaring ourselves correct on all counts, ignoring all rebuttal and then drifting off again to fight the next battle.

How we envy you John. How we envy you...

BYE

Orlanth wrote:Increase the toughness and you change the dynamic and the role, the same low price now encouraging use on a different scale.

Guard and Tau should not have a unit capable of sustained assault moves, it would make the army a hybrid assault/shooty army which is not the style at all.

At 20 pts each, they're not cheap. And being limited to 6 models per unit (for Transport), and taking limited non-Scoring Elite spots, they're not going to dramatically transform a Guard army that is required to take human Troops, especially Platoons.

Guard should have mobility and some assault punch. It's only since 3E that IG have been denied decent HtH capability. In RT and 2E, you could have Beastmen and Ogryns in quantity for solid assault capability. There is no reason that would work for Guard.

Make the Guard playable with decent mobility and adequate assault, but de-emphasize assault by making it Elite. If someone wants to have 3+ Ordnance pieces (500+ pts), and 3+ units Ogryns (600+ pts) in Chimeras (150+ pts), that is 1250+ pts in Heavy and Elite. In a standard 1500-pt game, that leaves only 250 pts for HQ and 2+ Troops (assume Grenadiers). Very fragile and limited Scoring ability.

Just from what Orlanth is saying, I'm getting the feeling he has neither used nor played against Ogryns where S8 attacks are involved in more than a few models. Once attention is turned their way, they rarely last past turn two of shooting and/or a turn of assault. Because they are the scariest assault troop on the board, highest point value per model (out front), and actually pretty soft, guess where your opponent's assault troops with power fists and Melta-type weapon is going? That's right, half the point as your squad of 5-10 Ogryns is about to be wiped out by half to equal points value unit in one turn. There is a major problem with that....

If they are going to stay the same stats they are now, they would have to be 15pts, keeping W3 (both because they need to be hard, and also because they have ALWAYS been W3). If they go to a two squad limit, I wouldn't complain.

Ogryn are a typical broken unit. They don't work. Period. They're not bad. They actually don't work.

T5 doesn't break them. T5 (almost) fixes them. I say almost because it is an imperfect solution, but the best imperfect solution there is.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yes John. Sadly none of us are like you and therefore we are incapable of breezing from thread to thread, making statements with no support, immediately declaring ourselves correct on all counts, ignoring all rebuttal and then drifting off again to fight the next battle.

John Hwang is a verbal Dark Eldar?

Skinnattittar wrote:Just from what Orlanth is saying, I'm getting the feeling he has neither used nor played against Ogryns where S8 attacks are involved in more than a few models. Once attention is turned their way, they rarely last past turn two of shooting and/or a turn of assault.

Well I dont see them often, does anyone?

A mass of S8 vs Ogryn, that is a mismatch where your ogryn die. Its the single powerfist you find in an average squad gutting half the quad that is the principle weakness. Ogryn are not supposed to be truly mighty, just rather big.

As a start especially with the new minis Ogryn require a 4+ save standard.

If we go down H.B.M.C's route and take T5 then the unit needs to lose a wound in compensation. At two wounds each its less of a problem to see how poorly a squad of Fire Dragons or a Pred Annihilator does trying to gun them down. Its still not a good solution.

If we go for bulky or one of the other power fist limiters we wont need to lose a wound.

Either way the unit needs a small price drop c20-22pts and the option for a second ccw (+3pts).

The power weapon weakness might be easily fixed dependent on what happens to the advisors rule. Ogryns led by a Commisar or Priest (both fixed) might get nasty.

How do you justify that Ogryns NEED to be W2? Or that T5 is out of the question? Or that Ogryns require a 4+ save with the new mini? Cadians have more armor than any other Guard Model ever had since 2E, yet they are not 4+ armor, they are still just 5+. Advisors should not be required to fix an Ogryn squad, and at least one having access to the Officer Armory to get a powerfist (which will be the only time that 20pts for a powerfist in the Guard is justifiable) for anti-tank duty. You say "Guard can't have [argueably] the best HtH unit in the game!" (I am paraphrasing a bit there) and I say "why not?" Guard used to be the best Shooty army, then along came Tau and blew Guard out of the water and off the board with shooty. Not just that, but the Guard has always been known for "power concentration." The Ogryns to begin with is evidence of this history, it is just that since RT days they have been broken, so broken that nobody knows of their potential.

T5 is not my solution, it is too much in my book, but it is preferable to T4(5) in close combat, which only holds back one of the problems Ogryns have. T4.5, not how it would be written in their profile, but just the abreviation for needing S9 to inflict instant death, cuts into into shooting affects and in close combat. Lascannon and lascannon similiar weapons are more common than you may think. One lascannon have about a 50/50 chance of knocking out an Ogryn a turn, which means by the time you get into assault with an Ogryn squad there will be two or three fewer Ogryns. Compare this to your typical assault squad from more other armies, and that is pretty normal/acceptable loss. Remember, they would still be T4 for wounding purposes.

Comparing them to Ork Warbosses may not be THE best comparison, as they are not of the same race. Compare them to Scouts, however, and you get a more reasonable comparison. Scouts are T4, and are barely a quarter the size of an Ogryns. Yes, they are an Astarte, but they are still made of human bits.

Skinnattittar wrote:How do you justify that Ogryns NEED to be W2? Or that T5 is out of the question?

Read the above thread. I dont feel like repeating myself again.

Skinnattittar wrote:Or that Ogryns require a 4+ save with the new mini? Cadians have more armor than any other Guard Model ever had since 2E, yet they are not 4+ armor, they are still just 5+.

Ogryns have the same level of overall cover, but the plates themselves are clearly thicker. It is synonymous with ork 'eavy armour. Which ias 4+ based on the lots or none armouring depending on where you hit the ork.

Skinnattittar wrote: Advisors should not be required to fix an Ogryn squad,

No it is not, I never stated it was. TRY READING THE THREAD. The Advisors can help by adding power weapons where there are none.

Skinnattittar wrote:
and at least one having access to the Officer Armory to get a powerfist (which will be the only time that 20pts for a powerfist in the Guard is justifiable) for anti-tank duty.

S6 powerfists are not anti tank. If an officer could have a chainfist you would have more of a point.

Skinnattittar wrote:
You say "Guard can't have [argueably] the best HtH unit in the game!" (I am paraphrasing a bit there)

They will be good, but far from the best.

Skinnattittar wrote: and I say "why not?" Guard used to be the best Shooty army, then along came Tau and blew Guard out of the water and off the board with shooty. Not just that, but the Guard has always been known for "power concentration." The Ogryns to begin with is evidence of this history, it is just that since RT days they have been broken, so broken that nobody knows of their potential.

To start with Guard can match Tau in a gunfight. Fire Warriors outgun basic guardsmen but the support weapons loadouts are inferior. Guard have the indirect artillery, guard have the massed numbers, guard have the lascannon and they have special weapons in squads. Also if you dont take plenty of Broadsides Tau will have problems with Russ.
I dont know how Ogryns did in Rogue Trader and 2nd edition, but that isn't really relevant. There were plenty of borken units then that have since been toned down, some more than others.
The point of the exercise is to make Ogryn worth taking, not to make them r0xx0r if this is what they did back in the early days of 40K.

Skinnattittar wrote: T5 is not my solution, it is too much in my book, but it is preferable to T4(5) in close combat, which only holds back one of the problems Ogryns have. T4.5, not how it would be written in their profile, but just the abreviation for needing S9 to inflict instant death, cuts into into shooting affects and in close combat.

I would basically agree with you here in your analysis, but not your conclusion - T5 is not preferable.

Skinnattittar wrote: Lascannon and lascannon similiar weapons are more common than you may think. One lascannon have about a 50/50 chance of knocking out an Ogryn a turn, which means by the time you get into assault with an Ogryn squad there will be two or three fewer Ogryns. Compare this to your typical assault squad from more other armies, and that is pretty normal/acceptable loss. Remember, they would still be T4 for wounding purposes.

Ogryns ought to be counterassult units. They dont march up the board taking lascanon hits they remainm in the line and wait for the enemy. Sure they can take lascannon hits there, but you get a choice of targets. Ogryn should get shot to pieces if you try and make them linebreakers. Lascannon death is not a problem, unless it is blocked by T5.

Skinnattittar wrote: Comparing them to Ork Warbosses may not be THE best comparison, as they are not of the same race. Compare them to Scouts, however, and you get a more reasonable comparison. Scouts are T4, and are barely a quarter the size of an Ogryns. Yes, they are an Astarte, but they are still made of human bits.

Sure scouts are small, but they have two hearts fused ribcage and all sorts of toughening add ins. The SM scout is an ubermensch, just one that is poorly equipped. I have background problems about scout armour, as you have already invested in the space marine, why send him into battle without the right protection. It makes no sense, but that is not the issue here.

On Orlanth's Post : I'm not quite sure how to address this one.... it doesn't make much sense.... I have been reading this thread, heck I started it.... Also, I'm not quite sure if Orlanth knows how paranphases work... because I don't know where S6 powerfists came in with S5 Ogryns.... Also, he said that Advisors would fix the lack power weapons in the Ogryn squad if one is allowed to be led by a Commissar or Priest (once fixed). That is saying that they would REQUIRE an advisor to fix their lack of power weapons... my statement was that they shouldn't require an Advisor to be fixed.... As far as my "best HtH unit" you're right, they wouldn't be, that was my implication, if I exagerated what you said, then take that at face value, that is how I took it, which is why I stated I was paraphrasing in my own words. Not a perfect use of paraphrase, but one doesn't have to get their panties in a bunch. As for Scouts, they are light infantry, quicker, smaller and easier to remain unseen, that is why you would want them from an IRL stand point, for scouting, hence the name "Scout." And as to Ogryns vs. Scouts, Ogryns are still massive compared to Scouts, larger, hearts, larger lungs, thicker skin like leather, ect... Elephants can take a .50 cal round through the upper torso, right past the heart, documented, so bigger organs do make a creature tougher. A fused ribcage is still made of bone, Ogryns, have bones, supposed to be big bones too... you know what, we could argue Ogryn physiology untill the cows come home. Ogryns are still easily four times the size of scouts, they could easily be 25% tougher. Armor wise, hey, thin flimsy armor would not look as nice as thicker armor, and it still doesn't defeat the fact that Cadians have thicker armor than everyone else but are still only 5+ save.

So far Orlanth has only stated that T5 would make Ogryns too good and would be out of character. That is hardly scientific or objective. Now am I agreeing that T5 is preferable to other options such as T4.5 in my opinion. HBMC is opposed to special rules, very simple special rules even, for the sake of not cheesing a unit. T5 not only makes Ogryns proof against S8 weapons, but it also means they are T5 for purposes of being wounded, making them 6+ to wound against S3 and 5+ to wound against S4, which I don't think is necessary.

I am still for T4.5 and W3 with access to Officer Equipment for the Bone 'ead.

I'm ok with T5 as there is lots of old fluff of Ogryns fighting genestealers and other nasties successfully in hand to hand (thinking specifically of the planetary invasion story from Space Hulk 1st ed). And it feel right that they ought to be tougher then a marine on a bike (so far as versus isntant death) given their size and reputed fortitude.

Jack

I think T5 is what the Ogryns need to be worthwhile and useful as a unit. In 40k the thing that justifies a models toughness most is bulk and Ogryns are pretty dang bulky. That really should be enough to justify it. They're bulkier than almost every infantry unit and yet have the toughness of marines who are half their size.

So far the argument is that with T5 they're too good. When a T5 is the only real thing that would be going for them I don't think there is a problem.

They're a close combat unit that doesn't have a true close combat weapon; they have clubbish short ranged guns. They're bulky and have limitation in being mounted in a transport, so they're slow. They're suppose to be a unit that can soak up damage but they have paper thin armor and either get gunned down before they even get close enough to shoot or chopped down by every dedicated close combat unit that gets so many more attacks.

They do have somethings going for them but those benefits are ineffectual. Whats the point of having 3 wounds if you end up dead after one shot?

I don't think cheapening them is the answer because it just avoids the problem of them being ineffectual. When you look at the elite units of other armies compared to their basic troops there is a noticeable step up in how worthwhile they. This quality is lacking from the IG more than any other army. Maybe it because IG are just "human." For whatever reason, despite all the sci-fi and over the top explanations for everything else, IG are always pulled down and grounded by some pretext that their units can't be as effective as other armies'. I see enough IG armies without any elite choices taken and its because the IG are the only army in the game where there is no reason to take its Elite options. The IG need all their elites reworked to be worthwhile.

The IG need a T5 Ogryn unit, now if that means adjusting their cost or re-working their fluff so be it, because its a necessary gain.

@aka: Agreed. Let Ogryns be useful and fairly costed!

Also, bring back Beastmen as assault infantry!

I'm all for "new" units. I actually have one of the old Beastmen with a plasma pistol. A couple years back when GW did an article on abhumans the beastmen had their nod. The way I see it, if its fun why not.

My only real issue with letting the IG have all their old abhumans back (aside from how crappy the model support for them used to be) is that is just goes more towards making them and the Tau seem similar; shooty gunline with specialized racial units and nice tanks...

Still more pro abhuman then not

Jack

I here you on that sentiment. I never liked that aspect of the Tau; I felt it intruded on the IG. With Abhumans there is always the fact that technically they're a mutated human sub-race and not a totally different species.

I think it'd be neat to see some another abhuman unit added, not necessarily beastmen, but something unique. In the context of providing the IG new units that deviate to extremes that normal humans can't achieve abhumans are a unique thematic device.

A couple other things from that WD article, that could be used as jumping off point for more abhumans were the Gland Warriors and the Afriel strain, though they'd both need some refinements to be less doctrines and more individual units.

In that regard, I see Tau as more Guard than Guard.

That is, the Tau are characterized by broader access to more specialized allied non-Tau, along with higher-tech armor and weapons and vehicles. I think the Tau also need more allies. Donorian Clawed Fiend (more-uber Ogryns) and Hrud (more-uber Ratlings) would be excellent candidates for the next Tau book.

In contrast, Guard should be characterized by simpler, but more cost-efficient units. So where a Tau allied Clawed Fiend would have lots of USRs and weigh in at 25+, even 30+ pts, a Guard Ogryn gets by on his basic statline and weighs in at 20-, maybe 15- pts.

But Guard should see their Beastmen brought back, for completeness sake.

Make Beastmen more like Rough Riders. In the current fluff, there is no way Beastmen would be allowed to exist in the Imperium, much less join the Imperial Guard. You might see them as part of an Ordo Xenos Inquisitorial Force, however.

I do agree with you, DD, that the Tau should perhaps be more specialised than Guard, but I would like to see them less as "Special Forces" Guard and more seperate and original. As they are now, they are an odd mix of Space Marine, Eldar, and Imperial Guard, at least that is how I feel about them.

Slightly off topic, but I think it would be interesting if they had an option for the Genos (might be mispelled - book's nowhere near me) like there was in Abnett's book Legion; don't know how they'd do it, but it could introduce a bit of variation to the Guard.

Please explain the Genos? I have not read the novels.

I think the way they should have differentiated the IG and the Tau is if they had made the Tau subbordenant races more like equal partners, one big happy greater good. To contrast with the IG abhumans that are treated as second class citizens bordering on slaves or penitents who fight for the emperor in an attempt to gain forgiveness for their lesser sins of Abhumanity and lesser mutation.

I kinda agree with JohnHwangDD, I think the abhumans should be defined more by stats with Tau xenos auxiliaries defined much more by their unique gear or rules. However I don't think their should be an exclusion of USR or other special rules from abhumans just for the sake of that differentiation.

Don't have the book with me, but here's a listing off of review of the book on Amazon Canadia:

"Unlike most of the other Horus Heresy Novels, this one does not use the Marines as the primary point of view. Instead we see the tale through the eyes of members of the Imperial Army, primarily members of Geno Five-Two Chiliad, genetically engineered warriors left over from the Emperor's unification of Earth, essentially primitive prototypes for the mighty Space Marines. Peto Soneka, a "het" (translation: Captain) for one of their units is the most compelling character, but he's joined by a host of others that have equally believable abilities and motivations."

Granted, this particular Geno might not be around in the 41st millenium, but you could have something like that. Specialized troops sitting in elite slots who have some bumped up stats and specialties due to some sort of genetic advantage, be it engineered or otherwise.

Sound kinda in the same vein of the Gland Warriors and the Afriel strain, I mentioned. Nothing like minor genetic and cybernetic modifications to make your day.

If they didn't make the cut as elite choices, either in a modified form could make the grade as a unique special unit, kinda like how the Legion of the Damned are in the marine codex.

I'd prefer have units with as little bad luck as I can in my army - my dice seem to be bad enough as is (in regards to the Afriel strain).

Skinnattittar wrote:On Orlanth's Post : I'm not quite sure how to address this one.... it doesn't make much sense.... I have been reading this thread, heck I started it.... Also, I'm not quite sure if Orlanth knows how paranphases work... because I don't know where S6 powerfists came in with S5 Ogryns

S5 ogryn, S3 Commissar with fist atached (possibly depending on what the new codex allows). i.e. The fist wont really help.

Skinnattittar wrote:.... Also, he said that Advisors would fix the lack power weapons in the Ogryn squad if one is allowed to be led by a Commissar or Priest (once fixed). That is saying that they would REQUIRE an advisor to fix their lack of power weapons... my statement was that they shouldn't require an Advisor to be fixed....

Error of comprehension on your part. I do not in any way imply that advisors fix the ogryns, only that once ogryns are fixed you have also to take account of how they could become borken with new advisors rules.

Skinnattittar wrote:Elephants can take a .50 cal round through the upper torso, right past the heart, documented, so bigger organs do make a creature tougher.

Likley a freak result, bigger creatures feel more pain (more nerve endings). Elephants are a poor analogy because they are very easy to incapacitate or scare off with minor wounds. a rat, fragile though it is is very resilient for its size. In any event T3 T4 and T5 are one size fits all categories. Very few models cross the line for their species.

Skinnattittar wrote:So far Orlanth has only stated that T5 would make Ogryns too good and would be out of character. That is hardly scientific or objective.

I dont play with a labcoat on, likely noone else does either. You could with complete equal faness say that anyone who claims T5 woulod fix Ogryns claims so without objectivity.
In any case I did state my case. But to expand and reiterate.

T5 ogryns are too hard to kill, between the increased T against basic weapons and immunity to mo0st forms of instant death they now can take damage in a way few units can.

Add in the universal 4+ cover save and your ogryns become VERY resilient. IG will get, not a counter assault unit but an advanced breakwater they can charge forward and rely on to tie up latge amounts of the enemy line for extended periods of time. Youc ant lascannon them to death, you cannot powerfist them to death bolters eq wounds on 5+. All in all a large squad of Ogryn, quite cheap, can hold up pretty much anything most armies can throw at it short of force weapons and demolisher cannon.

currently if you advance ogryn in front of your line they die, parhaps a tad too quickjly to the powerfist, but they die anyway to melta missile and lascannon. T5 orgyn shrug this off say they cost 25pts each that is a little over 8pts per wound that a bolter marine has a 1/3 chance of taking off with a shot. t5 is a steal for the points, you could boost the price, but then you lose ogryn functionality again. This is not the use its the abuse - i.e. what you need to be looking for.

So your large unit of 3 units of chrap ogryn are forward deployed marching up from turn 1. They meet the assault marines, stealer etc and fight them to a standstill. Sure the ogyrn will lose, but lose slowly over a long time. Played well T5 ogryn will mean that if it isnt podding or deepstriking one cway or another it isnt going to get to the IG gunline. An unreachable IG gunline = little hope of winning.

they would be ok if powerffist resilient, they would be acceptable almost of they were T5 in close combat and assault marine resilient but if they are T5 total and lascannon resilient they become a big problem. cheap steady you cant effectively assault them and cant effectively shoot them. they are just a big rock behind which the IG gunline can blast away. Wraithguard should be able to do this - and you know how much they pay for the privilege, ogryns - no. We have not yet touched what happens if you add a Commissar and make them ld10.

Please stop looking at Ogryns as a unit for a quick fix, you have to look at the big picture. This is the sort of mistake GW repeatedly make, and Dakka think itself better than the GW studio monkeys, yes.

Your grammar and spelling errors are making some parts difficult to understand (also, blaming others for not being able to comprehend what you are saying do to your syntax errors is very faux paus), but are you saying that current Ogryns can be marched out front to tie up the forward lines of an opponent? Or that at T5 they would tie up the forward lines of the opponent... Because T4 Ogryns don't even make it to the forward lines of their opponent.

In your last post, you did make some agreeable points, but you still lack justification of your points , such as making examples using provable data like roll break-downs (i.e.; 6 bolter shots from 3 SM makes 4 hits which will cause 2 wounds on T4 but only 1, maybe 2 wounds, against T5 [OMG there is still a valid chance of causing 2 wounds with 3 SMs in the shooting phase? That breaks your arguement!]). I, personally, THINK that T5 is a bit too much, but T4 is already blatently FAR too little. That is why I propose T4.5, however if people want 40k to move towards NO special rules then T4.5 has no basis. Personally, I like SIMPLE special rules that don't break a battle (never gamble on a few Lascannons to turn an infantry battle). An example of a special rule that I think 40k doesn't need is WBB. It is a very complicated rule with many exceptions and dependances, and is only easily accessible to those with Necron codexes. FNP is a good replacement for that, in my opinion. But we are on Ogryns, so lets not get distracted.

Skinnattittar wrote:Your grammar and spelling errors are making some parts difficult to understand (also, blaming others for not being able to comprehend what you are saying do to your syntax errors is very faux paus).

Poor excuse. Well they are lots of typos in my posts because I speedtype. I am literate, just not prepared to halve my typing speed. Also please remember posts on threads are normally speech transcript rather than text prose, and should be read as such. Please do not mix me in with leetspeakers who cannot string a sentence together.

Skinnattittar wrote:but are you saying that current Ogryns can be marched out front to tie up the forward lines of an opponent? Or that at T5 they would tie up the forward lines of the opponent... Because T4 Ogryns don't even make it to the forward lines of their opponent.

Yes can. T5 adds a tarpit functionality out of sync with the IG army and has knock on effects.

Skinnattittar wrote:In your last post, you did make some agreeable points, but you still lack justification of your points .

Sorry, what part of T5 do you need explaining to you in order to justify my posts. T5 makes basic weapons less effective often considerably so and greatly restricts Instant Death. Do not wait for statistics, you know that much is true without. besides stathammer is a bad idea, it only tests specifics not general trends, even if you use MEq and the other buzzwords.

Again you are being grossly unfair, you demand proof, yet offer none in your own posts and demand none for others solutions. If your standards of proof are required then first they apply to you because you should not ask for a discipline in othersw you do not apply first to yourself. If you apply it your own post count will have to drop to near zero on any form of informative topic.
So I ask again, why do you expect me to provide a higher level of justification than you do to anyone else on this thread?
just because you do not agree with my solutions it does not mean I have any less justification than any others, in fact I offer MORE evidence at least more than "make them T4.5/T5, that fixes it" (paraphrased).

Skinnattittar wrote:I, personally, THINK that T5 is a bit too much, but T4 is already blatently FAR too little. That is why I propose T4.5, however if people want 40k to move towards NO special rules then T4.5 has no basis.

Well if you are going to think where do your thoughts take you? Rather than pick up a number with the prefix T why not ask yourself what you want Ogryns to do. We have established a weakness, the weakness is T4 and instant death. So what do you need protecting from. Answer the real question first, find candidate answers, look at the consequences, then ammend until you see the solution.

Skinnattittar wrote: Personally, I like SIMPLE special rules that don't break a battle.....

Simple doesnt mean nudging the numbers, you can add a special rule and it can still be simple. Melta weapons dont just rely on S to overcome tanks, they get the extra d6 in some circumstances. Clearly a special rule, but one we can understand. adding a special rule to a unit need not be feared and is so often welcome.
Sternguard have lengthy special rules, are you tell me they are hard to understand and unpopular?
Do not mistake of confusing the doctrine of aiming for simplicity with the dogma of dumbing down.

Actually, the proof has been stated at least once or twice in past posts. Included is comparing Ogryns to SM squads, Ork mobs of equal point value, basic Marine assault squads, and I think vs. Tyranids was mentioned, but I may be recalling something said at the hobby shop. However, there hasn't been any number crunching that works against T5 been done yet. Just speculation, which is what you are doing, Orlanth. And just for your information, just because this is a forum, doesn't mean we have to let our standards fall, and if I can't understand what you are writing or saying, and you are not following syntax, using proper grammar, and making spelling errors (which aren't many, I will admit to you that), then is it really someone else's fault if they mis-understand what you are trying to communicate?

I do not know what battle you have seen where Ogryns reliably slow down the enemy affectively, but it is virtually universally accepted by Guards players that Ogryns are useless, accept in large/mega/Apocalypse battles, where they are really just there because the player has them, and they can use up the points to drop them in.

I really don't feel like giong back and explaining all the cons of T4 Ogryns and how they will either simply become T4 S5(6) Guardsmen, or over priced lumps of metal used to hold down your army list. Go back and read through the thread unless if you can come up with some proof to varify your claims. Simply saying that crunching numbers is mis-leading is not a legitimate excuse. It is only just an excuse used when the numbers don't help you. Come up with an example situation that follows reasonable tactics where Ogryns will be broken, or crunch the numbers and prove your claims.

Orlanth wrote:Well if you are going to think where do your thoughts take you? Rather than pick up a number with the prefix T why not ask yourself what you want Ogryns to do. We have established a weakness, the weakness is T4 and instant death. So what do you need protecting from. Answer the real question first, find candidate answers, look at the consequences, then ammend until you see the solution.

What do I want Ogryns to do?

Something. As they currently are, they can't impact most games in any real way. They can cause a few wounds if you have a large enough squad, but nowhere near the amount you'd need to make a difference, either by making their points back or removing enemy threats from the table. Anecdotally, the few units I've killed with Ogryns in games typically cost a fraction of their own points cost (last time, one Eversor and one Callidus assassin, which took two squads of 5 Ogryns with two Boneheads, a 270 point investment.

Personally, they should remove the goddamn unit from the armylist if they're not prepared to make major changes to how they function on the table. If I had my druthers, I'd give the squad a powerful special weapon option, such as a heavy flamer. Maybe it'd be overpowered, but so what? Maybe it's the IG's turn to be the broken army, let Eldar, Marines and Orks get shanked for a change.

What I expect GW will do is fix the squad size to 5 for 150pts, remove all options from Boneheads and raise the price of the upgrade to +15 points. And MAYBE give them the new Rage USR.

Double post. Damn.

I have to sadly agree with Agamemnon2, if GW isn't prepared to make the necessary sort changes to Ogryns they might as well drop them. Maybe someone at GW is creative enough to come up with something more fair but just as appropriate as T5 to fix Ogryn but I'm doubtful. As it stands Ogryn are about as usefulness as a terminator with a laspistol, ill equipped to do their job and just decreasing their cost will never make up for the lack of usefulness relative to other units.

I disagree. 5pt ppm Ogryns with 45pt Chimeras would be very useful.

The issue is making Ogryns unique in the Guard and still cost effective. Some here say that they would break the Guard, or give them a rampaging assault units. Well, simple solution to the idea of ramaging assaul units would be to limit them to one squad per army. Even if they are correct in their belief that Ogryns are over powered, with only one squad per army they can't be everywhere, just funnel your opponent's assault initiatives elsewhere, which is really what the IG need, at least ONE scary unit. As they are now, the IG don't have anything any armies really have to fear, next to the Leman Russ, which is still rather easy to nullify (it is quite easy to get Crew Shaken results, which makes the Russ just a moving block of armor 14-12-10).

To justify their existence, Ogryns need to match up against the other counterassault unit in the IG codex, Rough Riders. And that's no small feat, because RRs have S5 powerweapons with I5 (on the charge).

The maximum-sized RR squad (ten men, 110pts with hunting lances) can fleet before using their 12" charge, and deals 20 hits on the charge (provided everyone gets to swing).

Against, for the sake of an argument, 10 Marines.

- RRs hit on 5s, so on average 6.67 hits
- RRs wound on 3s, so 4,44 wounds, no saves, so 4 marines kick the bucket.

In comparison, 110pts worth of Ogryns (4 ogryns, one of whom is a Bonehead) do the following

- 13 attacks at WS4, so 6.5 hit
- S6 wounds Marines on 2s, so 5.4 wounds
- Marines save on 3+, leaving 1.80 wounds.

If we go on to assume both Marine squads have a sergeant with a power fist, the likelihood that the Ogryns lose combat, break morale and are run down becomes unacceptably large. Note: I didn't take into account pre-charge shooting from either squad, which would presumably make a bit of difference.

Given their reactionary mobility (a Chimera makes Ogryns mobile too, but you can't charge out of one, and it costs a lot of points), Rough Riders are a better choice for an IG army that wants to tie up or drive off enemy infantry. Even if you give the entire squadron meltabombs, you'll still end up with an unit cheaper than most ogryn squads, and can go tank hunting (not a bad idea as such, with that 19-24" move+charge in one turn).

Yep, though the RRs compete wtih HHs for FA slots, where Ogryns compare with Veterans. In an infantry-based list, you would aways take RRs and Vets. But in an AC / Mech list, would Ogryns be viable? I think Vets are still so much better, it's not a question of how the rest of the army is conceived.

Your math is a little off Aga

10 rough riders on the charge = 6.6 or call it 7 dead marines on the charge. They hit marines on 4's most of the time. With a 19-24inch threat range. All for only 110 points. Sure they are huge targets, and fragile and one shot and only have s3 pistols..... Hey wait a minute how come everything imperial guard always has a huge draw back of some kind. Hey GW can't we just get something that is just good? Where are our stern guard, our plage marines, our boys, our crisis suites. Where is our good unit with no handicap?

Whoa sorry, getting off the soap box....

t5 ogryns would not be overpowered.

Oh yeah, before anyone mentions the Russ, av10 rear armor with no special rules or cool, tau, eldar, machine spirit upgrades.

Foil makes a good point. Most every other Army has an assault unit that might be considered "over powered" in relation to T5 Ogryns being considered "over powered." The Imperial Guard has traditionally been given the short and smelly end of the stick. Seriously, think of an army more difficult to play (one that isn't a SM chapter). The only Army I can think of is the Dark Eldar, and I haven't even seen 1000pts of them since 1998 on a table. That is not saying that they do not deserve a decent condex, maybe their current one is, but my hobby shop doesn't even carry one unless requested, so I wouldn't know.

The Leman Russ is a bit more survivable in the latest edition, however that isn't a big deal considering that it is less useful with the latest edition. Unless the Russ is set up in a comfy spot at the beginning of the battle and your opponent isn't a horde army like Orks or Tyranids (and sometimes Guard), it isn't going to get much done. This is assuming that it isn't getting stunned or shaken every round (which often does happen). So arguing that the IG armor is their strength is a "sometimes when they're lucky" accusation.

In the whole RR v. Ogryn discussion its important to point out that each fills a different role; one is a fast assault unit and the other is a tough assault unit. Point for point they should end up about the same number of kills on average; the difference should be though that RR shouldn't be living too long after their charge while Ogryns should bog down an assault for several turns. (For the MMORPG players: Ogryns = Tanks, RR=DPS.)

Since ogryns don't have any type of save, toughness is the only way they can get the longevity they need to stay in a fight.

With rumors of russ' being squadroned in the new codex (whenever that happens) I see it getting a big cost down. Mitigating upgrades aside, in this edition with its decreased usefulness and added disadvantage of being destroyed on immobilize results I can seriously see the russ coming significantly closer to the 100pt mark.

foil7102 wrote:Oh yeah, before anyone mentions the Russ, av10 rear armor with no special rules or cool, tau, eldar, machine spirit upgrades.

And it's basically perfect that way, I might add.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

foil7102 wrote:Oh yeah, before anyone mentions the Russ, av10 rear armor with no special rules or cool, tau, eldar, machine spirit upgrades.

And it's basically perfect that way, I might add.

I dunno I rather liked the rumour of the Leman Russ getting Lumbering that was being bandied about....

Jack

A point valued Russ chasis with only three heavy bolters (no battle cannon) is more useful than the Russ is ATM. Fixing the Russ should be another thread.... my opinion is that it needs Lumbering, which would fit with fluff of it trudling along popping all their weapons as the turret traverses then booming off. Plus... it would only make sense, that tank is HUGE! Or at least the choice of moving total distance and then firing either its battle cannon or all other weapons.

Given the choice of fielding more non-Lumbering Russes, or fewer Lumbering Russes, I will prefer to take more.

That works for GW. You get to buy more Russes or their box of tanks (which isn't as good as a deal as it looks). More cheap Russes is okay, but why if you could just turn a couple of screws and make the Russ worth taking? Make the armor 14-13-12 and count its sponsons and HBs as defensive weapons. Bing, bang, boom, Russ is fixed, only one special rule and you don't have to buy MORE Russes to compensate for its few faults.

I don't think you understand my point:

Inexpensive massed Battlecannon Ordnance *easily* makes Russes worth taking.

If the current Russes were cut price down to 50 pts total, in squadrons of 1-5 models, would any Guard player *NOT* take as many as they could?

No. So it's a cost thing.

What good is a tank that can't fire it's Heavy Bolters? Why have them in the first place?

This is supposed to be the main battle tank of the Imperium, not the main battle bunker. Right now Russes are undynamic and boring (something you're a fan of DD, I know). They sit still in cover shooting because if they move they can't shoot anything worthwhile, and they get such a huge bonus in cover that there's no reason to.

This isn't just the fault of the Russ though - this is something all vehicles suffer from - because it's more a main rules issue. If Hull Down was a 5+ save, and Defensive Weapons for S5, things would be different. Vehicles would be mobile again. As long as that save is 4+ there's no reason to move out of cover.

You can't score - so who cares about taking positions, getting closer to the enemy just allows them to attack your AV10 rear armour (another idiotic rule from 5th, removing positioning and manoeuvre from the game almost completely) - and in cover you can shoot and shrug off 50% of incoming shots.

BYE

Let's make another thread for the Russ before we get into it too far on this thread. Ogryns should be our point of discussion.

Sorry, Skinnattittar, you are correct. I apologise; DD brings out the worst in me. IQ vacuums usually do.

BYE

Speaking of disappointing forum members... are you ever going to get back to me about those rules I sent you? It has been so long I've almost forgetten what I wrote.

Also, lets not be throwing slander at eachother here. WH40k is supposed to be a game where tactics, thought, and planning are utilized. Granted, 40k seems to be moving towards the Halo style of brain dead play, but that has more to do with the negligence of the consumer than the negligence of the provider. Good business says "give the customer what they want... or as many of them as possible."

Skinnattittar wrote:Granted, 40k seems to be moving towards the Halo style of brain dead play

DD being the poster child thereof.

Skinnattittar wrote:Speaking of disappointing forum members... are you ever going to get back to me about those rules I sent you? It has been so long I've almost forgetten what I wrote.

Umm... eventually?

It was a very long PM, so I'll need to set aside some time when I'm not at work to do it.

BYE

The trend I have noticed that John prefers is more of a "your army lists dictates your victory" type of play. That is to say, make a list the right way, and you have an invincible army. The problem with that idealogy is that if every army has such a list, you end up with just every player with the exact same list as everyone else who uses the same army. *YAAAWWWWWNNNN* Boring, bland, uninventive, totally dependant upon GW's whims of purchasing. Any unit can become great depending upon their points cost, even current stats Ogryns will be very cheese if they are very cheap. But that isn't the solution we should be pursuing, just because something is cheap enough, shouldn't make it a good unit. A good unit is one you take despite its point cost. Granted, not every unit will be able to do that, especially your aggregate units like basic Guardsmen or Tactical Marines, those there to fill in the line and keep your opponent on their toes. Ogryns can be that unit for the IG, that one you take despite their points cost, good or bad. As they are now, they are barely worth taking for a Mega/Apocalypse battle with a points cap that exceeds your prefered built army. Heck, some would take squads of mortars before they took Ogryns to fill in their list!

Ogryns, I would love it if they where not so bad :(

While T5 seems pretty nice, I do wonder if they should be able to shrug off direct krak missle hits. Yes I know a Warboss can, but you can't have a unit of 10 warbosses.

Personally I think T4(5) would be pretty good. Yes this would mean avoiding S8 weapons, but I we can deal with that.

The Ripper gun is basically a scout shotgun now :( Which is sad. Ripper gun needs to be S5.

As for armor save... this is a tougher call. If they get a bump in T, then I am not certain a 4+ save is warrented. Perhaps a 5+, just throw like 6 flak jackets on them and call it a day.

I would really love it if Ogryns became excellent counter attackers. Something I could hold behind my line and unleash on enemy assault units. I would love it if Ogryns did this at a reasonable point cost. Sadly, I worry that this day will never come.

BoxANT wrote:While T5 seems pretty nice, I do wonder if they should be able to shrug off direct krak missle hits. Yes I know a Warboss can, but you can't have a unit of 10 warbosses.

Two points here:

1. No, they shouldn't, but they have to be able to survive in combat.
2. Ogryn aren't even close to Warbosses. T5 does not make them Warbosses. It makes them viable Ogryn that can survive around of combat.

BoxANT wrote:Personally I think T4(5) would be pretty good. Yes this would mean avoiding S8 weapons, but I we can deal with that.

That doesn't solve anything. The problem is dying in droves in HTH. To stop that they need to be able to shrug off S8. The simplest and most elegant way to do that is Base T5. You require no special rules, no exceptions, nothing, just a single digit change and the Ogryn's problems (mostly) go away.

Perfect solution? No.
Good solution? Not even close.

But there is no good solution to this problem, there are only lots of bad solutions, so we pick the lesser evil. The lesser evil is a simple fix that requires no special rules or massive changes. T5 achieves this.

BYE