Fantasy Flight Games will discontinue distributing new products from Rackham.

From their announcement:

Fantasy Flight Games announced today that it will, effective immediately, no longer be distributing new releases for Rackham’s AT-43 and Confrontation lines. FFG will continue to supply backstock of these lines while supplies last. Specifically, FFG will not be distributing product from Wave 8 (originally scheduled for late September) and forward.

Retailers and Distributors interested in these new products are encouraged to contact Rackham directly. FFG extends its appreciation to the retailers and distributors who have carried these lines under our tenure, and to Rackham for allowing us to distribute its beautiful range of games and miniatures in the past many months.

Interesting - especially given that no-one has a distribution license for Rackham in the UK (don't know about the US)

Is it Rackham's intent that all trade should be done directly through their website?

I suggest go to At-43 english Forum in Rackham website...

Mr. Bay announced a re-birth AND it seems that something is happening in USA, the specultaion is about a office or such... s

scottywan82 says:

October 16th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Per Jean Bey himself:

No comment for tonight gentlemen, sure it’s too late…

Comment will come in time, before the end of the month as previously announced.

New releases will be available normally and MONTHLY, let’s leave it at that for this night.

Jean.

I guess at the end of the monthwe'll see what rackham is up to.

Might have hit financial troubles. Following the suspension of share last year, coupled with the current financial climate, it's entirely possible any funding arranged etc has been called in, and that would sadly be an end to them.

But this is *pure speculation* NOT a rumour.

I think it is more likely that Rackham are taking direct control of international sales now that their troubles are over. AT-43 has been selling well AFAIK, probably better than Confrontation ever did. AT-43's a good game that deserves to do well, the less said about Confrontation the better.

Where did the GrotsniK boundless optimism go?

We're draining the Warseer out of him, slowly but surely.

This is news to me!

Oh, wait a minute...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/220501.page

Anyway, I just can't get too excited about anything R does after the whole Rag'narok 2/Confrontation 4 debacle...

This " starting something new and killing it asap" is bordering the ridiculous.
Its just the kind of company you cannot trust... specially with your money.

NAVARRO wrote:This " starting something new and killing it asap" is bordering the ridiculous.
Its just the kind of company you cannot trust... specially with your money.

I guess damage control is in order since this is getting quite out of hand.

A friend of mine who works at FFG wrote me this morning and told me:

Honestly, all I know is that it was FFG's decision. The boss called us all together and (among other things), gave a speech about "withdrawing from our colonization of mini-land, while still keeping all our other mini-series..." blah, blah, blah. Never did say why, though.

I imagine it's a perfectly mundane business/profit reason.

so there you have it.

What exactly do we have then?

We have FFG killing the distribution, not Rackham "starting something new and killing it asap".

FFG are a bunch of bastards in my books, still nothing on a reprint of Dark Heresy.

Hellfury wrote:We have FFG killing the distribution, not Rackham "starting something new and killing it asap".

LoL... I really dont care these days but if R is bad business for FFG to handle then guess who fault it his? besides I was refering not only to this in particular.

Two words. FRP Games. It's cheaper there anyway.

My guess would be that AT-43 was not selling well for FFG.

FFG have their own pre-painted game in distribution in Mutant Chronicles. I can imagine the decision was made that it wasn't beneficial to mutually support two sci-fi pre-painted plastic miniature games.

FFG has Mutant Chronicles and DUST Tactics, it´s your guess what this means...

Well, sure, but I also wonder what it means for R too...

Interesting result, I wonder who's behind it.

I'm suspecting that Rackham decided to cut FFG out of the stream and take their distribution margin back.

But it's almost possible that FFG decided that Rackham wasn't worth the effort.

The contract between FFG and Rackham was "limited time" from the beginning on.

Isn't that weird given that Dust tactics uses design elements from AT-43?

It isn't that weird, is it?

And I know that I'm very interested in DUST TACTICS, especially so I can use the models (the Mechs!) in SECRETS OF THE THIRD REICH (as I've no desire to play the actual game if it really is based off of AT-43's 'Bucket O' Dice/Exploding Sixes' System).

Weirder than all that together is the fact that Rackham decided to do Action figures... and no I'm not joking.

malfred wrote:Isn't that weird given that Dust tactics uses design elements from AT-43?

Considering DUST is what AT-43 was originally supposed to be? No.

RussWakelin wrote:My guess would be that AT-43 was not selling well for FFG.

And Confrontation 4 was probably not selling at all. Everywhere I've looked has tons of untouched CAoR boxes lying around the place. Add in the tons of valueless Conf 3 books and stuff they got left with last year and I'd not at all be surprised if FFG are struggling to find retailers willing to stock any more Rackham products. AT-43 is doing OK I think , but I'm not sure its good enough to carry the company on top of all the baggage resulting from the various Confrontation debacles.

Rackham seem to have done a fantastic job of trashing the value of their brand image. Bit like GW in that regard...

Oh, I think Rackham's got GW beat by quite a bit in that department...

NAVARRO wrote:Weirder than all that together is the fact that Rackham decided to do Action figures... and no I'm not joking.

Action figures of what? Confrontation? What would that accomplish?

warpcrafter wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:Weirder than all that together is the fact that Rackham decided to do Action figures... and no I'm not joking.

Action figures of what? Confrontation? What would that accomplish?

No idea to be honest... maybe branching to other areas.

It's a because of a magical word that sometimes works: merchandising!

Alpharius wrote:Oh, I think Rackham's got GW beat by quite a bit in that department...

Yup. Rackham filed bankruptcy. GW didn't.

If I were a gaming store, I wouldn't touch Rackham with a 10-foot pole.

GW was quite close to bancruptcy at the end of the 80´s.
Oh, and Rackham filed for protection according to french law, which is not the same as the american Chapter system. They were under protection to avoid being bought by competing companies.

It's not quite the same, but it's close enough. It still says "we have a cash flow problem and require protection from our creditors, or we'll be bankrupt in short order"

GW and rackham are quite diferent.

I get the feeling rackham is lost and in panic searching for something that catches mainstream public eye. I'm probably wrong though.
Maybe all the bad feelings rackham generated inside and for themselves and their core clientelle is part of a wider plan. I just dont get it.
All I know on my micro reality is that other companies are filling the gap Rackham left by trashing the high quality miniatures path.

After all, Privateer Press did bring out some action figures of some Cygnar heroes IIRC. They only did the one or two, so I guess they didn't take off as a concept, but if PP thought it was a good idea to try then there's no reason for R not to try as well.

Looks like they are trying to make that the game though....

Really feels like they are just clutching at straws now.

Pity, really. Rackham was on track to give GW a real run for the money, with AT43 going after 40k and Conf going after WFB.

What I'm taking away from this is that naysayers are dead wrong when they say that GW needs to make radical changes to either gaming system. At least, if they're not trying to destroy GW gaming in the process.

Still, I guess GW is laughing all the way to the bank.

I dunno. Rackham, despite being GW's biggest competitor (yes PP fans, it is, or at least was, true!) still made a fraction of the money GW did, and thats without the international chain of stores.

The only way GW can lose it's market dominance is through it's own gross stupidity, which it seems to be tackling even as we speak. It's just one of facts of life now!

Rackham outsells PP? I think Conf 4 may have fixed that. There are no publicly available figures available for PP's turnover but I doubt AT-43 (Rackham's most popular line) outsells Warmachine/Hordes internationally. Also PP have just released Monsterpocalypse (which is nice for people who like that kind of thing - which I don't).

Isn't there a distributors top selling game chart somewhere on the net? That's give us some idea.

None of the people I knew who played Conf 3 (myself included) play Conf 4. I was looking forward to Conf 4 myself as I found some elements of Conf 3 a little clunky but I loved the models. Conf 4 killed it stone dead for me and everyone I know who played it, including one of the guys who helped translate the AT-43 book.

George Spiggott wrote:Rackham outsells PP? I think Conf 4 may have fixed that. There are no publicly available figures available for PP's turnover but I doubt AT-43 (Rackham's most popular line) outsells Warmachine/Hordes internationally. Also PP have just released Monsterpocalypse (which is nice for people who like that kind of thing - which I don't).

Isn't there a distributors top selling game chart somewhere on the net? That's give us some idea.

None of the people I knew who played Conf 3 (myself included) play Conf 4. I was looking forward to Conf 4 myself as I found some elements of Conf 3 a little clunky but I loved the models. Conf 4 killed it stone dead for me and everyone I know who played it, including one of the guys who helped translate the AT-43 book.

Amen brother!

I was sad to see it (C3) go, but it (Confrontation in general!) is now GONE...

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Looks like they are trying to make that the game though....

Really feels like they are just clutching at straws now.

As I said in another thread, all will be revealed next week and suffice it to say those are NOT for a game.

I can't say much more because we were asked not to discuss it until after the official announcement other than to attempt to dispel negative or just plain wrong rumors.

Platuan4th wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Looks like they are trying to make that the game though....

Really feels like they are just clutching at straws now.

As I said in another thread, all will be revealed next week and suffice it to say those are NOT for a game.

I can't say much more because we were asked not to discuss it until after the official announcement other than to attempt to dispel negative or just plain wrong rumors.

Lets hope they surprise me in a good way. Its about time they invert the tendency for bad news.

Agreed!

A 'good' surprise is LONG overdue from Rackham!

Alpharius wrote:Agreed!

A 'good' surprise is LONG overdue from Rackham!

Only here. Dakka is by far the most Anti-Rackham forum I have ever been on.

AT-43 is a very young game, and is doing pretty well from what I can see.

Yeah, AT-43 is doing well and C4 is doing decently. The new things coming down the pipeline excited me(and several other Sentinels) when we found out about it, but that may be a personal opinion thing. I think you'll only have to wait until next Tuesday. That's at least when JB wants to announce, but it may not be up to him completely.

Kill CAoR off, carry on developing AT43 (which is a really good system and the pp models work well) and relaunch C3 and the metal models. Nuff said.

methoderik wrote:Dakka is by far the most Anti-Rackham forum I have ever been on.

I don't think Dakka is more anti-Rackham than we are anti-GW...

Please!

Rackham did the worst bait and switch job EVER with the whole "Oh, this is Ragnarok 2, not C4" swindle!

And then drove the Confrontation game (and name!) into the ground on the worst nose dive in of all time.

And the level of activity on the 'official' Rackham Confrontation boards dropped to just about zero shortly thereafter.

I'm happy that some people still love what R's selling, but they took their fanbase of a serious 'prison date'.

With no lube.

methoderik wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Agreed!

A 'good' surprise is LONG overdue from Rackham!

Only here. Dakka is by far the most Anti-Rackham forum I have ever been on.

AT-43 is a very young game, and is doing pretty well from what I can see.

You should take a look at www.rackhamistheantichrist.com

Is that for real?

I mean sure, they are, but...

Kilkrazy wrote:

You should take a look at www.rackhamistheantichrist.com

I stand corrected.

Rackham did the worst bait and switch job EVER with the whole "Oh, this is Ragnarok 2, not C4" swindle!

Actually Mongoose did an even worse job with SST, which I really would have liked to succed.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Actually Mongoose did an even worse job with SST, which I really would have liked to succed.

QFT there, Duncan !!! Mongoose made a mess of SST and Battlefield EVO with their empty promises and lack of follow-through.

I only see Rackham going through some growing pains as they try to find their niche.

Was Mongoose's botch up really worse than more or less misleading the entire Confrontation fan-base?

I'll admit that I don't really know enough about the whole SST problem, but what Rackham did was borderline criminal!

OK, that's a bit of a stretch but they were *deliberately* misleading their existing customers knowing full well what was really going to happen.

Getting everyone excited for "Ragnarok 2" and "Confrontation 4", driving sales of miniatures for both games, while knowing exactly what was going to happen?

Lame.

Alpharius wrote:Was Mongoose's botch up really worse than more or less misleading the entire Confrontation fan-base?

I'll admit that I don't really know enough about the whole SST problem, but what Rackham did was borderline criminal!

OK, that's a bit of a stretch but they were *deliberately* misleading their existing customers knowing full well what was really going to happen.

Getting everyone excited for "Ragnarok 2" and "Confrontation 4", driving sales of miniatures for both games, while knowing exactly what was going to happen?

Lame.

Oh, I don't think anyone other than Rackham can say what Rackham was deliberately trying to do. Who of us can know for sure? They may have had every intention to support "R2" and "C4" but economics and company survival may have dictated a quick deviation from that course. They did file for "Protection" in order to retain their business and restructure it.

Yes, we all feel slighted when we have a strong affinity for a game, a system, a company and they "betray" us. I feel that way toward Mongoose who really strung SST fans along and "drove sales of miniatures knowing exactly what was going to happen". They never learned from their experience with Battlefield: Evolution but claimed a "We have learned and you'll be amazed" stance. Lots of promises for the long-promised drop ships. They were "dropped" alright !! Along with the entire line due to, what appeared to us fans, gross incompetance rather than a forced financial decision. A lot of people burned means a suddenly barren field of SST opponents and a lot of useless minis. But that's my opinion based on my experience with Mongoose. Although, they do have a history of botching things (other than SST).

At any rate, we love to hate ... look at how GW is villified. And now Wizards since they've decided to pull a Mage Knight and cancel their DDM Skirmish v.2.0 just a few months after launch.

I'm gonna take the wait-n-see stance with Rackham because:
a) I do enjoy their games and products (PPP and metal)
b) They haven't, in my opinion, burned me like Mongoose did.

How specialised do miniatures have to be, before they become useless?

I didn't buy any Mongoose figures so perhaps I shouldn't pass remarks. But really, can't those figures still be used with the SST rules or other generic SF rules? If you want dropships, there are various models available.

As long as manufacturers stay within recognised common scales, players can mix and match figures and make coherent forces for a variety of games.

Figures like Pig Iron show there is a place for miniatures that are not specifically tied to one company and their ruleset.

BrookM wrote:FFG are a bunch of bastards in my books, still nothing on a reprint of Dark Heresy.

My copy of Dark Heresy is from FFG and has ads for FFG games in the back. Other books are in the reprint pipeline. Maybe you need to ask your store why they don't have a copy, since it's been out for a few months already.

-John

Myrthe wrote:
Oh, I don't think anyone other than Rackham can say what Rackham was deliberately trying to do. Who of us can know for sure? They may have had every intention to support "R2" and "C4" but economics and company survival may have dictated a quick deviation from that course. They did file for "Protection" in order to retain their business and restructure it.

I think you have to possess an almost extra-planar level of idealism to not realize that Rackham knew exactly what they up to when they launched their Pre-Painted line of miniatures and completely gutted the Confrontation skirmish game using the deceptive practices that they did.

But hey, at this point, whatever.

They shot themselves in the foot on that one, and it is a long road back from that.

Especially on one foot.

Jbuckmaster wrote:

BrookM wrote:FFG are a bunch of bastards in my books, still nothing on a reprint of Dark Heresy.

My copy of Dark Heresy is from FFG and has ads for FFG games in the back. Other books are in the reprint pipeline. Maybe you need to ask your store why they don't have a copy, since it's been out for a few months already.

-John

They keep telling the store that they haven't got any reprints yet.

Co3 was already dying when they decided to switch over. Actually they did their best to keep it alive until it was no longer possible to control the rules monster they created.

Skirmish games survive only that long on the market without a drastic change. Normally it´s five years, and there are many dead companies to proof it. Co3 was mostly bought for the nice miniatures and that hurt the sales. Cause people were no longer collecting armys, but picking only some minis.

Co3 was the best try too keep it alive as long as possible to fund a new system. Rackham has a bad reputation for PR, but they all the time cared for the gamers. In the end Co became to complicated, even the designers were not able to grasp the whole system any longer. (Check the Wiki for the Warmachine rules if you want to see how much of a mosnter a Skrimish can become, no matter how good the intentions in the beginning were) They could decide to march on into oblivion or step on quite some toes and survive.

Also, in WHAT WAY did Rackham screw anyone? did your metal figures turn to DUST when C:AoR came out? Did they shrivel up and vanish? I still use two all metal armies for C:AoR.


If your schtick is "skirmish is better than battle" than play smaller point games. Why should Rackham care that you bought one blister of every army you could get your hands on? It's not like they hid that it was becoming a battle game. Battle game = larger units.

And the reason no one posts on the C:AoR forums is because it's full of stupid-a$$ bull$gak whiners still bitching about C3 TWO YEARS after it died.

Can't you all go find a new game already? Or just support C3 yourselves. Rackham isn't going to. Thank God.

And if you love skirmish Confrontation so much, wait until next year.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Co3 was already dying when they decided to switch over. Actually they did their best to keep it alive until it was no longer possible to control the rules monster they created.

Skirmish games survive only that long on the market without a drastic change. Normally it´s five years, and there are many dead companies to proof it. Co3 was mostly bought for the nice miniatures and that hurt the sales. Cause people were no longer collecting armys, but picking only some minis.

Co3 was the best try too keep it alive as long as possible to fund a new system. Rackham has a bad reputation for PR, but they all the time cared for the gamers. In the end Co became to complicated, even the designers were not able to grasp the whole system any longer. (Check the Wiki for the Warmachine rules if you want to see how much of a mosnter a Skrimish can become, no matter how good the intentions in the beginning were) They could decide to march on into oblivion or step on quite some toes and survive.

Yes mate I think you nailed some points just right, I strongly believe that if rackham had addressed their fan base explaining things just like you did now, many of the fans that were in most cases mature 25- 30's men would understand it a lot better and leaved or stayed in a more ordelly manner.
But Rackham, even if with best intentions, did a horrible service with so much incomplete and sometimes even imature announcements I do rememeber they adressing fan base calling "petty minded" the concerns and discussions about the decrease in quality that Prepainted plastic is VS metal minis would bring... I remember they saying it was similar quality so we dont need to concern... then we all saw the real deal and felt extremelly frustated with Rackham because it was not only NOT similar but quality was a joke comparing with metal conterparts...
Small lies everywere from R didnt help either...

Scottywan82 wrote:Also, in WHAT WAY did Rackham screw anyone? did your metal figures turn to DUST when C:AoR came out? Did they shrivel up and vanish? I still use two all metal armies for C:AoR.


If your schtick is "skirmish is better than battle" than play smaller point games. Why should Rackham care that you bought one blister of every army you could get your hands on? It's not like they hid that it was becoming a battle game. Battle game = larger units.

And the reason no one posts on the C:AoR forums is because it's full of stupid-a$$ bull$gak whiners still bitching about C3 TWO YEARS after it died.

Can't you all go find a new game already? Or just support C3 yourselves. Rackham isn't going to. Thank God.

I find extremelly insulting calling all the people on the official R forums "stupid-a$$ bull$gak whiners " specially because they are not here to defend themselves and because there they were frontal enough with you to explain their reasons in a civilized way, no wonder everyone considers you the kool aid drink guy. ( I have seen many of your kind and guess what they disapeard as fast as they appeard)
Metals are NOT available like they should ( again another tiny lie from rackham that said No worries we have a huge stock before things get out of stock) and a couple months later shazam tons of items out of stock or sold out... and its getting worse.

And mostly the state of rackham forums ( empty) and their sucess in business or not is 100% rackhams fault and not the fans in the internet... thats another imature rackham comment not long ago... atacking the ex fan base labeling doom sayers or nay sayers.

And i will not drag a converstation with you any further because everything was said, explained, debated to death with you many times before elsewere and you just dont even try to listen, so no need for forum quotes stunts

Platuan4th wrote:And if you love skirmish Confrontation so much, wait until next year.

Ahhhh good... please tell me its some metal or even plastic but unpainted and I will die happy


Someone mentioned negativity... I dont consider having a diferent opinion about someting like a negative behaviour... but i do find the intolerance to accept diferent points of view negative.

Actually, its a natural state of mind of many tabletoppers to whine about everything. Ever seen people NOT whining about how bad GW is.

The problem of most ist, that they still want to have a rogue company and not a company that does business big style. I do understand many decisions GW and Rackham made, because I need to if I want to be furhter successfull in this business. Many gamers don´t and that´s where som friction comes from.

Besides, he´s right, quite some guys (and they look like a majority because others were offenden by their behaviour and left the forums long ago) only whine. They do it to such a degree that it looks mor like a hate crusade than a real grudge. Some of them even went so far to distribute fake information that Jean Bey had died (how low has one to sink to write such things), damaged miniatures with acids and presented them on the net as production quality miniatures or threatend people not sharing their opinion, to beat them up. Sorry that´s no behaviour at all.

Try this on GW or PP and you have lawyers breathing down your neck faster than you can say right of free speech. Rackham is much too nice with regad to such behaviour, in my opinion.

Duncan,
Thats criminal behaviour and should be punished accordingly! I nevertheless believe thats a sad deviation of how the majority behaves... I hope I'm right on this and its a rarity because, nothing justifies such behaviours.

Lets face it as much as I feel disapointed with the current state of things lets not forget Rackham filled my needs for a decade so at least for that it has my respect.
I think also that sometimes people confuse expressing disapointment with hate cruzade or something, lets remember its hard to let go of something you admired for so long and with much more passion than what you see today from anyone... even from kool aid folks

Its like your young brother suddently gets on drugs... You still like him but you condemn his behaviour and choices and you trie to speak to his senses on any oportunity you have.

Now let me speculate a bit... maybe the new format of products, much more open box and use and dont feel connected with the prepainted miniatures appeals to a audience much less interested in the Hobby factor and as such is not prolific on forums? Could that be also one of the reasons people just dont see this game community online?

or hardly if ever actaully see it being played in a store? Can't say I have seen that since it went pre paint.

The reason I liked Confrontation the way it was WAS that it was a skirmish game. I already played Warrior and WHFB, I didn't want yet another game of large armies. It fit the niche, and when they moved on, they moved themselves entirely out of what any of us wanted around here. Prepaints and large armies killed it for me and our group. Our dollar showed that as not a single one has purchased either C:AoR nor AT-43. In fact in this area I only know of one person who buys AT-43, and this is a rather large group of gamers in KC.

If they can survive in another niche or in some kind of chain store environment good for them. But as far as these hobbiests go, it died long ago. We have still played some C3, but without anything new we move on to other things. Now it is like one of those classic games "from the day" that you pull out and play as an aside.

The problem for a publisher who launches a skirmish ruleset and figures is that by their nature skirmish games do not need a lot of figures. Also you don't need to use the publisher's figures.

GW coped with this by (a) making the game bigger than skirmish and (b) only allowing official figures at shops and tournaments.

Infinity copes with it by (a) very expensive figures, (b) special rules for specific figures (e.g. hackers) and (c) financial support from their 15mm Ancients range.

Yes Toreador, I have heard similar experiences with new PPP products collecting dust everywere and the massive abandon of the once numerous rackham fans... also have heard at-43 is doing well. But to be honest I have no idea of the sales numbers of these things.
Last bit of news was that at Spiel there were some stores dumping Rackham miniatures at ridiculous low prices... A thing you have been watching a bit everywere since the Switch to PPP anouncement.

The fragment of reality I have been watching does not look good for Rackham sake and future.

As for the prices of these new products I do find them really expensive for what you get... but Rackham never was low on prices to begin with... Like Infinity I can tolerate them since I do get the money back by having tons of fun painting... The problem starts when you take away the painting.

The skirmish format lures me more and makes me spend a lot more money than big armies games... Most of us in this hobby started with GW and already have big armies, so some warbands from another game is much apreciated.. more than the same big armies thing... A few warbands later and I'm hocked on getting all factions warbands.

And then my wife kills me

Scottywan82 wrote:Also, in WHAT WAY did Rackham screw anyone? did your metal figures turn to DUST when C:AoR came out? Did they shrivel up and vanish? I still use two all metal armies for C:AoR.


If your schtick is "skirmish is better than battle" than play smaller point games. Why should Rackham care that you bought one blister of every army you could get your hands on? It's not like they hid that it was becoming a battle game. Battle game = larger units.

And the reason no one posts on the C:AoR forums is because it's full of stupid-a$$ bull$gak whiners still bitching about C3 TWO YEARS after it died.

Can't you all go find a new game already? Or just support C3 yourselves. Rackham isn't going to. Thank God.

Actually, the way I remember it, it was posts more along the lines of yours that drove many people who actually liked Confrontation away from the official board. You know, the whole "if you don't like it, leave!" line of thinking.

Platuan4th wrote:And if you love skirmish Confrontation so much, wait until next year.

I hope it is a fully realized game, and not a tacked on 'tactics' version. I really do...

Kilkrazy wrote:The problem for a publisher who launches a skirmish ruleset and figures is that by their nature skirmish games do not need a lot of figures. Also you don't need to use the publisher's figures.

GW coped with this by (a) making the game bigger than skirmish and (b) only allowing official figures at shops and tournaments.

Infinity copes with it by (a) very expensive figures, (b) special rules for specific figures (e.g. hackers) and (c) financial support from their 15mm Ancients range.

Indeed. I feel that the scaling up of gaming throughout a games life in close to inevitable.

Lets use GW as an example, as it is one I think we are all familiar with....

So, in the beginning, the range of models, the scope of the game, and gamers collections were all restricted. This is how most games start out (look at Warmachine as a contemporary example of what I'm gibbering about).

However, over a period of time, two of these things push the boundaries of the restriction...these are, of course, the Range of Model, and Games Collections of said models. Eventually, cause and effect kicks in, and you get more and more gamers looking at their collection, wanting to field it all in a single battle, because it would be fun. However, the game rules themselves tend to have a limit of scale.

At this point, GW made the decision to upscale the game, which meant streamlining some rules, rewriting others, and yet more being dropped altogether. Rinse and repeat a few times, and you pretty much end up where we are now in terms of Game Scale.

HOWEVER....GW appear to have made a single mistake in the logic here. Sure, the game plays well enough at smaller points levels (500 for 40k, 750 for Fantasy I find to be the minimums) which means new players and indeed, new armies can involve themselves without having to go straight to 'optimal' size (for me, 1,500 and 2,000 respectively). But, it would certainly appear whether consciosly or not, that they (and Rackham now, from what I read on here) forgot why the original game was so popular, and no longer cater to the detailed skirmish rules that started it all.

Now, reality check, whether or not it is financially viable (remember, they are all companies at the end of the day) to run multiple rule systems for the same models, I do not know. GW arguably tried it with Necromunda and Mordheim (and GorkaMorka) and we know how that went. But I don't want to use that as an absolute reference, because how much was limited appeal and how much was limited support is very much open to opinion!

So, Rackham appear to be following GW's scaling footsteps, but are stumbling somewhat along the way. Will PP do the same? In theory, they will have to (bigger collection - bigger games - faster rules etc) but whether they simply make a scaled up game possible as an alternative remains to be seen.

NAVARRO wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:And if you love skirmish Confrontation so much, wait until next year.

Ahhhh good... please tell me its some metal or even plastic but unpainted and I will die happy

It will use whatever minis you own, there's no new models, just the book, which may or may not just be the Confrontation version of AT-43 Tactics.

Ugh.

Exactly what I thought it might be.

Still, I'll give it a whirl, with whatever minis I have left after the Great Confrontation Sell Off Of '08!

(Probably keep my Dwarves, maybe some Wolfen and a Dirz Warband...)

Alpharius wrote:Ugh.

Exactly what I thought it might be.

Still, I'll give it a whirl, with whatever minis I have left after the Great Confrontation Sell Off Of '08!

(Probably keep my Dwarves, maybe some Wolfen and a Dirz Warband...)

The Great Sell Off wouldn't happen to include any Devourers, would it? I need more.

Platuan4th wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Ugh.

Exactly what I thought it might be.

Still, I'll give it a whirl, with whatever minis I have left after the Great Confrontation Sell Off Of '08!

(Probably keep my Dwarves, maybe some Wolfen and a Dirz Warband...)

The Great Sell Off wouldn't happen to include any Devourers, would it? I need more.

It does!

PM me for details...

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The problem for a publisher who launches a skirmish ruleset and figures is that by their nature skirmish games do not need a lot of figures.

Indeed. I feel that the scaling up of gaming throughout a games life in close to inevitable.

At this point, GW made the decision to upscale the game, which meant streamlining some rules, rewriting others, and yet more being dropped altogether. Rinse and repeat a few times, and you pretty much end up where we are now in terms of Game Scale.

GW arguably tried it with Necromunda and Mordheim (and GorkaMorka) and we know how that went.

So, Rackham appear to be following GW's scaling footsteps, but are stumbling somewhat along the way. Will PP do the same? In theory, they will have to (bigger collection - bigger games - faster rules etc) but whether they simply make a scaled up game possible as an alternative remains to be seen.

If a game company wants to last more than 5 years, they need to scale up the games, or players stop buying and the games collapse & die. That is the nature of any skirmish game. GW has proved this time and again with every skirmish game they have ever created. And it's not just GW. Ogre Miniatures. Heavy Gear. VOR / VOID. And so on.

GW upscaled WFB and 40k long enough ago, had enough non-skirmish board gaming, and kept prices down during the transition allowing them to weather the storm from RT to 2E. They let 2E build up as larger gaming so that 3E was pretty much inevitable, and that transition was still very painful. But once that die was cast, starting with 4E, GW had a solid foundation for *extremely* large games, up to effectively unlimited size Apocalypse games. As of 5E, it's amazing how well the rules work to support Apocalyse-scale games of 10k+ per side. Those are unthinkable game sizes under 2E, much less RT rules. And GW invested in the infrastructure to support minimal-labor / "lights out" mass production with plastics, hence, no pre-paints.

GW seems to have tried pretty hard to relaunch skirmish gaming several times over (AT, TL, Epic, BFG, Nec, Gork, SH, =I=, E:Armag, Nec:Under, Mord, Warbands, Kill Team, etc.) but it's just not working. So instead, GW has downscaled WFB and 40k with BfM, BfSP, AoBR. And those seem to have done quite well.

PP is going to collapse, I think. Based on the GW 3E / Rackahm backlash, the WM/H mass battle conversion is going to see the biggest backlash ever.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

GW seems to have tried pretty hard to relaunch skirmish gaming several times over (AT, TL, Epic, BFG, Nec, Gork, SH, =I=, E:Armag, Nec:Under, Mord, Warbands, Kill Team, etc.) but it's just not working. So instead, GW has downscaled WFB and 40k with BfM, BfSP, AoBR. And those seem to have done quite well.

Some of those aren't even close to skirmish games: AT, TL, Epic and E: Armageddon are just games with smaller scale miniatures, not skirmishes! And yes, I really do miss those games...

JohnHwangDD wrote:
PP is going to collapse, I think. Based on the GW 3E / Rackahm backlash, the WM/H mass battle conversion is going to see the biggest backlash ever.

IF (when?) it happens, I do think you'll be right!

Scottywan82 wrote:Also, in WHAT WAY did Rackham screw anyone? did your metal figures turn to DUST when C:AoR came out? Did they shrivel up and vanish? I still use two all metal armies for C:AoR.


If your schtick is "skirmish is better than battle" than play smaller point games. Why should Rackham care that you bought one blister of every army you could get your hands on? It's not like they hid that it was becoming a battle game. Battle game = larger units.

And the reason no one posts on the C:AoR forums is because it's full of stupid-a$$ bull$gak whiners still bitching about C3 TWO YEARS after it died.

Can't you all go find a new game already? Or just support C3 yourselves. Rackham isn't going to. Thank God.

This is an anecdote I saw about the change from C3 to AoR on another forum and I think it's fairly apt right now.

De Nile is not just a river in Egypt...

The thread is an example of the truly delusional. It runs something like this:

one of 40+ C4 abandoners types, "I'm not interested in a game with 20-30 figures per side. I like 12 or so. C4 is not for me."

One of the 7 or so same fanbois responds, "Stop knee-jerk reacting to rumors that the game will need 20-30 figures."

Abandoner, "Um, here's a photo from Gen Con Paris showing a demo with 20-30 figures per side. I'm not interested."

Fanbois (now not addressing the topic anymore), "But who says 20-30 figures can't be fun?"

Abandoner (now clear he's talking to someone who's lost their mind), "Uh, no one. It's not for me and I'm dissappointed."

Fanbois, "You won't really know that you can't use it as a skirmish game until you buy the new rulebook and try the 20-30 figures per side game. Only after you buy the rulebook, 20-30 more pre-painted miniatures you said you didn't want, and never stop playing, will you really be able to make a decision then."

Abandoner, "See ya."

Fanbois, "We have to lock this thread. Talking of playing games with 12 figures is against copyright laws in France."

Platuan4th wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:And if you love skirmish Confrontation so much, wait until next year.

Ahhhh good... please tell me its some metal or even plastic but unpainted and I will die happy

It will use whatever minis you own, there's no new models, just the book, which may or may not just be the Confrontation version of AT-43 Tactics.

Interesting, maybe 2009 is the year I paint my uraken

JohnH: Sorry, I can't agree with your analysis. I don't think Rackham's games are having problems because they are skirmish.

I'd argue they are having problems because of the following:

- Bad inital launch: Operations Damacleas was universally hailed as a total screw up. Even AT-43 fanboi's will argue that box was a mistake.

- Classic Rackham rules writting: They were fuzzy at best. Also, they forgot the first rule of wargame design: NEVER include a smiling monkey in your damage charts.

- No organize play support. FFG made an effort on Rackham's behalf this past summer, but unlike other successful gaming companys (GW, PP, WotC) Rackham never got any kind of organize system going.

- It took a long time for the game to get a variety of miniatures available in the line. i.e. There weren't many faction choices until recently.

- An unproven idea: The BIG news here is that the idea of "pre-painted miniatures" with a real in depth rule set at the level of PP, GW, FoW, etc. has yet to be proven. Mongoose tried it with their modern war game: Fail, now Rackham has tried it with their lines: Apparent Fail. It seems like folks who want pre-painted stuff gravitate toward the smaller games (WotC, Mutant Chronicals, M-Poc) I'd argue that table top war gamers still like to assemble and paint stuff. Even if many of them never get around to it. Just the IDEA that they can build,collect and paint makes it cool. It also may be that selling these products unassembled and unpainted means the companies can afford to manufacture greater variety into their products.

Thoughts?

RussWakelin wrote:
I'd argue they are having problems because of the following:

- Bad inital launch: Operations Damacleas was universally hailed as a total screw up. Even AT-43 fanboi's will argue that box was a mistake.

Really? Then why are people on the official forums still suggesting it to new people interested in buying UNA or Therians?

RussWakelin wrote:
- Classic Rackham rules writting: They were fuzzy at best. Also, they forgot the first rule of wargame design: NEVER include a smiling monkey in your damage charts.

The problem was that the in house translators made it fuzzy. Now that there are no more in house translators, they're outsourcing it to native English speakers to translate, the rules look much better now. Also, that's not a monkey, that's Munchy Munch(ie. Mickey Mouse).

RussWakelin wrote:
- No organize play support. FFG made an effort on Rackham's behalf this past summer, but unlike other successful gaming companys (GW, PP, WotC) Rackham never got any kind of organize system going.

That's going to change big time. Can't go into much detail, but after the November Surprise, find a Sentinel and bug us about Organized Play. That's our job.

RussWakelin wrote:
- It took a long time for the game to get a variety of miniatures available in the line. i.e. There weren't many faction choices until recently.

True, but I think this has alot to do with the limited amounts of staff they're currently working with more than anything else. Next year is looking much better on releases.

RussWakelin wrote:
- An unproven idea: The BIG news here is that the idea of "pre-painted miniatures" with a real in depth rule set at the level of PP, GW, FoW, etc. has yet to be proven. Mongoose tried it with their modern war game: Fail, now Rackham has tried it with their lines: Apparent Fail. It seems like folks who want pre-painted stuff gravitate toward the smaller games (WotC, Mutant Chronicals, M-Poc) I'd argue that table top war gamers still like to assemble and paint stuff. Even if many of them never get around to it. Just the IDEA that they can build,collect and paint makes it cool. It also may be that selling these products unassembled and unpainted means the companies can afford to manufacture greater variety into their products.

Thoughts?

The last one I can't really attest to, as that seems a locality choice thing. People were loving the idea of PPP for larger wargames in Baton Rouge(one of my problems with Baton Rouge gaming other than the PP players: too many unpainted armies straight out of the box), the problem was that the store's manager didn't want to stock the games despite how many people were ordering the models and one of his best employees constantly requesting some regular stock. I've found that to be my biggest roadblock to my Sentinel duties is the stores being wary to stock the games.

Platuan4th wrote:

RussWakelin wrote:


- An unproven idea: The BIG news here is that the idea of "pre-painted miniatures" with a real in depth rule set at the level of PP, GW, FoW, etc. has yet to be proven. Mongoose tried it with their modern war game: Fail, now Rackham has tried it with their lines: Apparent Fail. It seems like folks who want pre-painted stuff gravitate toward the smaller games (WotC, Mutant Chronicals, M-Poc) I'd argue that table top war gamers still like to assemble and paint stuff. Even if many of them never get around to it. Just the IDEA that they can build,collect and paint makes it cool. It also may be that selling these products unassembled and unpainted means the companies can afford to manufacture greater variety into their products.

Thoughts?

The last one I can't really attest to, as that seems a locality choice thing. People were loving the idea of PPP for larger wargames in Baton Rouge(one of my problems with Baton Rouge gaming other than the PP players: too many unpainted armies straight out of the box), the problem was that the store's manager didn't want to stock the games despite how many people were ordering the models and one of his best employees constantly requesting some regular stock. I've found that to be my biggest roadblock to my Sentinel duties is the stores being wary to stock the games.

I never, for a moment, saw a direct cause/effect for confrontation becoming PPP instead of metal due to peoples current tournament armies were unpainted.
The official speech was we will turn into PPP because
a) Metal will become incredibly expensive
b) people want prepainted because most dont paint their armies.

A) Sure it will become more expensive but leaping from metal to plastic is one thing but going from metal to prepainted dubious plastics is a compeltely new ball game. Besides current PPP's are far from cheap!

B)This got to be the most naife justification I ever saw in my hobby life... as you said its probably a local thing but how can anyone at rackhams imagine how many people buy their products exclusively for painting and dont even care showing up on tournaments? And how many just want to game instead of painting... From what I experienced the huge painters community all said bye bye and i dont see online new gamers community filling their shoes.

What I do think that happened is that Rackham drunk with the unespected acceptance and sales of AT-43 ( wich I continuously hear its a US thing and that europe is not that convinced with it) decided to literally dump, trash and kick all painting community and hobby related products.

For my hobby I can say the PPP is the worse thing ever happened and not only I'm not convinced with the " you can still repaint ppp" ( sounds a argument like the anecdote posted before) but im 100% agains it.

- Classic Rackham rules writting: They were fuzzy at best. Also, they forgot the first rule of wargame design: NEVER include a smiling monkey in your damage charts.

Applied only to the english rules, french an german rules were much better. Actually quite some english and french folks have been seen playing with the german edition of the game.

- It took a long time for the game to get a variety of miniatures available in the line. i.e. There weren't many faction choices until recently.

Compared to how long it took 40K and Warmachine to get an equal variety they are all three on par. Don´t compare the actual portfolio of a widely established game with a that of a new game.

RussWakelin wrote:I don't think Rackham's games are having problems because they are skirmish.

I think Rackham has a problem because they aren't managing the growth from small skirmish well, not because they are skirmish.

RussWakelin wrote:The BIG news here is that the idea of "pre-painted miniatures" with a real in depth rule set at the level of PP, GW, FoW, etc. has yet to be proven. Mongoose tried it with their modern war game: Fail, now Rackham has tried it with their lines: Apparent Fail.

Mongoose released crappy, ugly prepaints and set the whole thing back. Rackham's prepaints are better, but the designs are just wierd, being Frenchified. I think the failure lies more with Mongoose and Rackham than the idea of prepaints.

Good points everyone. Two quick clarifications on my stuff:

Operation Damacleas(sp?): The probelm with this wasn't the model content, which probably is a good buy, it was the crazy way they introduced the rules: The full rules weren't in the box. Instead you got a weird "learn by scenario" system that didn't allow advanced gamers any way to immediatly evaluate the full potential of the game. Speaking for myself, this turned me off immediatly. They may have since repackaged it so you now get the full AT-43 rules, but initally it was not impressive on the rules front.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Compared to how long it took 40K and Warmachine to get an equal variety they are all three on par. Don´t compare the actual portfolio of a widely established game with a that of a new game.

I was thinking about WM here. Warmachine had 4 playable factions from day one, with models. And PP has (until perhaps next year) always released updates to the game for all 4 factions at a time. I still believe this was one of the reasons Warmachine was able to break into the industry, while so many other games have had problems.

They had a small range back when they began, as every other company starting its range. they did not have four fully fleshed out armies. As with AT-43 now it took them somewhere between 1-2 years to reach a portfolio that serviced what one could call a standard AP-size.

@Duncan: It's true that WM/H too several releases to reach full steam, but each PP range had 4 "complete" starter sets to clearly set the "look" and baselines for each of the armies. IMO, that was a good way to launch.

Right, but creating starters for a skimish ist still easier.

Im looking forward to some good things coming from this game company its got a cool "Underground" fan base right now and is set to do well for a certain gamer fan base, I will say this, it is not the game to be selling or pushing towards a GW fan base.
Rackham, having being restricted by french bankruptcy laws they havnt been able to push as hard as they would have liked and the owner is saddened at the fact FFG didnt put a bigger effort into the organized play and I feel he wanted that to get better support so took it back to due it Justice. The emails he recently sent out did portray a man with a very committed love for the game and its universe and wants his baby to be treated as such so stay tuned for some great positive things happening for this game.
Has a gamer and a retailer Im very excited for the next stage of rackhams development...and be carefull of the witch hunts on the forums even some of the "sentinals" posting dont know all the facts...stay positive beware of nay say have a good game!

anyone know when the next announcment is due from Rackham?

Empire1 wrote:

Im looking forward to some good things coming from this game company its got a cool "Underground" fan base right now and is set to do well for a certain gamer fan base...

Yeah, that worked out great the last time. The "Underground" fan base got buried.

Saint Anuman wrote:anyone know when the next announcment is due from Rackham?

Sometime in November. I haven't seen anything specific beyond that.

Alpharius wrote:

Saint Anuman wrote:anyone know when the next announcment is due from Rackham?

Sometime in November. I haven't seen anything specific beyond that.

Actually, it's going to be this week they announce it. Last I heard from my contacts, it should be tomorrow.

Rackham will probably announce in French first, and then in English a few days later.

If it truly is a huge/awesome/exciting announcement, we'll probably hear about it here double quick.

I'm hoping it isn't just a blurb about a new distributor for English speaking countries, a loose summary of some upcoming organized play promises and a pep talk about how dedicated and fantastic a company Rackham cleary is(n't).

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The problem for a publisher who launches a skirmish ruleset and figures is that by their nature skirmish games do not need a lot of figures.

Indeed. I feel that the scaling up of gaming throughout a games life in close to inevitable.

At this point, GW made the decision to upscale the game, which meant streamlining some rules, rewriting others, and yet more being dropped altogether. Rinse and repeat a few times, and you pretty much end up where we are now in terms of Game Scale.

GW arguably tried it with Necromunda and Mordheim (and GorkaMorka) and we know how that went.

So, Rackham appear to be following GW's scaling footsteps, but are stumbling somewhat along the way. Will PP do the same? In theory, they will have to (bigger collection - bigger games - faster rules etc) but whether they simply make a scaled up game possible as an alternative remains to be seen.

If a game company wants to last more than 5 years, they need to scale up the games, or players stop buying and the games collapse & die. That is the nature of any skirmish game. GW has proved this time and again with every skirmish game they have ever created. And it's not just GW. Ogre Miniatures. Heavy Gear. VOR / VOID. And so on.

GW upscaled WFB and 40k long enough ago, had enough non-skirmish board gaming, and kept prices down during the transition allowing them to weather the storm from RT to 2E. They let 2E build up as larger gaming so that 3E was pretty much inevitable, and that transition was still very painful. But once that die was cast, starting with 4E, GW had a solid foundation for *extremely* large games, up to effectively unlimited size Apocalypse games. As of 5E, it's amazing how well the rules work to support Apocalyse-scale games of 10k+ per side. Those are unthinkable game sizes under 2E, much less RT rules. And GW invested in the infrastructure to support minimal-labor / "lights out" mass production with plastics, hence, no pre-paints.

GW seems to have tried pretty hard to relaunch skirmish gaming several times over (AT, TL, Epic, BFG, Nec, Gork, SH, =I=, E:Armag, Nec:Under, Mord, Warbands, Kill Team, etc.) but it's just not working. So instead, GW has downscaled WFB and 40k with BfM, BfSP, AoBR. And those seem to have done quite well.

PP is going to collapse, I think. Based on the GW 3E / Rackahm backlash, the WM/H mass battle conversion is going to see the biggest backlash ever.

Depends entirely on how PP handle it. Unlike GW, they have a sort of hindsight, so much as they can look at how older, larger companies handled it. There is a clear demand for Skirmish scale games, and there is a market for more detailed rules. However, PP could do what GW and Rackham didn't, and release the upscaled rules *without* making the original ones unavailable. Ergo, newbs can enjoy the Skirmish as is, then gradually scale up, and Vets can pop down a peg or two to enjoy the added depth. Absolutely no idea if this is cost effective myself, (perhaps it isn't, which is why GW and Rackham didn't do so?) but they still have an opportunity not present to GW, and one that Rackham sadly did not take.

I think the PP transition will be interesting to watch. Expectations from the former GW players will be high, so it'll be a very tough job for PP.

BrookM wrote:FFG are a bunch of bastards in my books, still nothing on a reprint of Dark Heresy.

Ummm FFG have printed DH - I bought my copy like two weeks ago. Also several of their other books are being released or were rereleased already......

Alpharius wrote:Rackham will probably announce in French first, and then in English a few days later.

If it truly is a huge/awesome/exciting announcement, we'll probably hear about it here double quick.

I'm hoping it isn't just a blurb about a new distributor for English speaking countries, a loose summary of some upcoming organized play promises and a pep talk about how dedicated and fantastic a company Rackham cleary is(n't).

As soon as it's announced(anywhere, he didn't say anything contradicting that), I can talk about it. Oh, and it's not just a pep talk about organized play and all that "state of the system" jazz. It majorly affects the entire company and its future.

Damn you Platuan4th, you've got me a bit excited about this now!

Alpharius wrote:Damn you Platuan4th, you've got me a bit excited about this now!

Lol, that's my job. I'm bursting to tell you guys, I was hyped when I read Jean Bey's E-mail to us.

Shouldnt be long... I'm itching to know all about it

Here's the bulk of the news in French.

Edit: English Translation

Dear Partners

Thanks to the support of d’ENTREPRENEUR VENTURES, one of the leading French actors in the field of investment, we are pleased to announce the creation of the company RACKHAM ENTERTAINMENT. RACKHAM ENTERTAINMENT was acquired on October 28, 2008, including all assets and production means of RACKHAM SA. RACKHAM ENTERTAINMENT will continue to count on the unique expertise of the RACKHAM SA Design Studio.

RACKHAM ENTERTAINMENT plans to continue development of the existing game universes AT-43 and CONFRONTATION, as well as new game universes included by acquisition of license.

The Design Studio has already conceived the innovative designs for CONFRONTATION and AT-43 for the next 12 months. We are pleased to announce to you that RACKHAM ENTERTAINMENT will be able to market many exceptional innovations within a very short amount of time. These exceptional innovations will be available in monthly intervals, and will be released simultaneously worldwide. This is sure to delight even the most demanding players.

Thus, RACKHAM ENTERTAINMENT is able to announce the imminent arrival of Wave-07. This Wave will be followed by Wave-09 (December 2008) which will be accompanied by a highly anticipated supplement to AT-43: Operation Frostbite.

RACKHAM ENTERTAINMENT, and its partner ASMODÉE, are now working in unison to ensure stores receive a regular distribution of these innovations as well as marketing and promotion support in France, Belgium, and Germany.

For this reason, in the next couple of weeks ASMODÉE and RACKHAM ENTERTAINMENT will begin to develop various marketing operations, including the establishment of organized play.

RACKHAM ENTERTAINMENT SAS
Lucas Velimirovic

Awesome news for Europe who are behind on releases next a letter to the sentinals was promised by Jean the founder of the games so Im hoping to see more news for the USA!

This is good news. When I first bought the C:AoR starter set, I was underwhelmed by everything but the rules. Those spearmen are made to break. However, the Undead that have been previewed in the latest issue of Cry Havoc! are pretty cool, especially the ones with the bat-wings for arms. Hopefully they will get their act completely together.

So Rackham Entertainment now has Confrontation, AT-43 and Hell Dorado...

interesting...

Not to mention a giant stack of boardgames that sell pretty well... (Dungeon Twister, Cash and Guns, Formula De)

Didnt see this one coming... but not disappointing... and perhaps this will boost the translation of Hell Dorado in english finally

And maybe, just maybe, a boost in their unpainted metal miniatures again... or the other route, Hell Dorado in prepainted plastics...

Hmmm, was thinking of getting in to Hell Dorado. Might hold back now, don't want to get stung again on the model front. Very nice metals at the moment, would be terrible if they suddenly decided to group everything together and make pre-painted models instead.

So Rackham SA didnt manage o get out of trouble and so sold its passive to the new Rackham entertainment... Only thing that tells me is that probably sales were poor

Its good news for those that embraced PPP caor because this anouncement the only thing that promises is a better distribution of the current models... heck and looking at wave 9 this makes me wonder how low can PPP get.
And a better support of sentinel program.

Also its kind of vague about asmoodee partnership.

Sorry I dont see any revolution here and I honestly fear that its just the continuation of PPP business model under a diferent name and maybe better organized.

Meh

What in that announcement should be considered awesome and/or exciting news?

Is there more to come?

Is Formual De available in the US at the moment? A friend got a copy and we've had some fun games (It's a good balance between 'casual' and 'serious' and good for a bunch of players) but I thought it was considered OOP, at least in the US.

Rackhan doing the PPP battle game thing to Helldorado would be very disappointing. In one way it's good to see Rackham are on the up but I would never buy a metal minis game from them after the C3 debacle.

Well, you and me both at this point, still.

I'm hoping that there's more to come from the "Big News Announcement" because as of right now, this is rather unimpressive.

Alpharius wrote:What in that announcement should be considered awesome and/or exciting news?

Is there more to come?

It means that after spending a year protected under some crazy french bankruptcy laws that they proved themselves to be a viable company by showing increased sales and growth and investors who see the money to be made in the universes they made up and the successes that could be made by investing in a good thing. With future items like boardgames video and novels this means this isn't going away and one mans growing pains are now absorbed by a bigger group who have the money to grow this company to the next level so it seems that the naysayers are wrong and rackham in its worlds of fantasy and sci fie are going to be able to grow and give the other games some competition for the gaming fan base and give newbies getting into tabletop gaming another choice..
Ive always thought they provided a option to gamers when getting into table top gaming, do you want to game or would you also like a hobby??? That's a personal thing and its great to have a choice with the rackham line of pre-paints ... Its always good to have anything that gets people away from computer games and out into the real world and socializing with real people just a though dont laugh to hard at me ...LOL

NAVARRO wrote:So Rackham SA didnt manage o get out of trouble and so sold its passive to the new Rackham entertainment... Only thing that tells me is that probably sales were poor

Actually, Rackham doesn't exist anymore, technically. Rakham Entertainment is a joint company of old Asmodee and Rackham. Jean Bey is no longer CEO, but is now in charge of Design, Organized, Play, and the Sentinel program. That means dedicated support for tournaments, as well as the Sentinels actually having what we need to run demos, leagues, and campaigns.

American version here


RACKHAM ENTERTAINMENT, and its american partners, will work in unison to ensure the
North American stores will receive on a regular basis these new releases as well as marketing
and promotion tools. For this reason, in the next couple of weeks North American Distributors
and RACKHAM ENTERTAINMENT will start developing various marketing operations,
including the establishment of organized play.

Emphasis mine.

IMO, it sounds like a bankruptcy shell game. Rackham is moving the IP to a separate licensing company so that, "if" (haha, *when*) they go under, the IP is protected from creditors.

It'll be interesting to hear the truth from Rackham and FFG employees in a few years.

Platuan4th wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:So Rackham SA didnt manage o get out of trouble and so sold its passive to the new Rackham entertainment... Only thing that tells me is that probably sales were poor

Actually, Rackham doesn't exist anymore, technically. Rakham Entertainment is a joint company of old Asmodee and Rackham. Jean Bey is no longer CEO, but is now in charge of Design, Organized, Play, and the Sentinel program. That means dedicated support for tournaments, as well as the Sentinels actually having what we need to run demos, leagues, and campaigns.

I understand that you as a Sentinel must be very happy with these news, since Sentinel program was dead for a couple years?
But you have to at least agree a bit that it doesnt mean a lot to those interested in things like C3, hybrid,cad, metal... rather than new PPP's games... Unless you know something about those trashed R products your not telling

NAVARRO wrote:
I understand that you as a Sentinel must be very happy with these news, since Sentinel program was dead for a couple years?
But you have to at least agree a bit that it doesnt mean a lot to those interested in things like C3, hybrid,cad, metal... rather than new PPP's games... Unless you know something about those trashed R products your not telling

No, but I do know that I forgot to mention something: This is the Investors letter. There will be another "Customer" letter later this week or next week. Don't know if they'll wait until Jean Bey gets back from the US or not to release it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, it sounds like a bankruptcy shell game. Rackham is moving the IP to a separate licensing company so that, "if" (haha, *when*) they go under, the IP is protected from creditors.

Target Games?

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, it sounds like a bankruptcy shell game. Rackham is moving the IP to a separate licensing company so that, "if" (haha, *when*) they go under, the IP is protected from creditors.

Acquiring a new partner and investing firm, disbanding your company, then forming a whole new company is a shell game now?

Well, is it bankruptcy? Have creditors gone unpaid, or has Rackham successfully traded out of its bad position and put together a viable new structure?

It would be entirely legitimate for Rackham to sell its assets to a new company if by doing so it got the cash needed to pay off its creditors.

Platuan4th wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:
I understand that you as a Sentinel must be very happy with these news, since Sentinel program was dead for a couple years?
But you have to at least agree a bit that it doesnt mean a lot to those interested in things like C3, hybrid,cad, metal... rather than new PPP's games... Unless you know something about those trashed R products your not telling

No, but I do know that I forgot to mention something: This is the Investors letter. There will be another "Customer" letter later this week or next week. Don't know if they'll wait until Jean Bey gets back from the US or not to release it.

No worries mate, if I was a Sentinel or a fan of PPP's I guess I would apreciate this letter also.
Just hope on customer letter rackham clarifies whats going to happen to Legends range.

Kilkrazy wrote:Well, is it bankruptcy? Have creditors gone unpaid, or has Rackham successfully traded out of its bad position and put together a viable new structure?

The new investor/partners got the company out of 15 months of bankruptcy(generally in France you have 6 months to make your case, can get a 6 month extension, R got an additional 3 months beyond that, too, to make a viable case to stay open and protected from creditors).

IMO, it sounds like a bankruptcy shell game. Rackham is moving the IP to a separate licensing company so that, "if" (haha, *when*) they go under, the IP is protected from creditors.

Be warned, your are walking on legaly dangerous ground with such accusations.

Besides from this, they did not do a Phoenix, like what happened to Target (aka I-Kore aka Harlequine, etc.).

Creditors have not been left unpaid and btw this is closer to what GW did when they became a big player. Before it they were on shaky ground, only with the money of banks and investors they were able to move forward.

@bankrupcy

They were under protection, not in bankrupcy mode, french and english law are quite different.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:

IMO, it sounds like a bankruptcy shell game. Rackham is moving the IP to a separate licensing company so that, "if" (haha, *when*) they go under, the IP is protected from creditors.

Be warned, your are walking on legaly dangerous ground with such accusations.

Really?

You aren't overreacting a tad here, are you?

Platuan4th wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, it sounds like a bankruptcy shell game. Rackham is moving the IP to a separate licensing company so that, "if" (haha, *when*) they go under, the IP is protected from creditors.

Acquiring a new partner and investing firm, disbanding your company, then forming a whole new company is a shell game now?

Did they say that the were disbanding the original company? I didn't see that in the English.

As a new investing partner, I want to protect my investment. Therefore, I demand that we form a new company to take on all of the IP assets. This company sells / licenses IP to the production company under favorable terms. No matter what happens, no creditor can touch the IP that I paid for. It's very simple and very common, and something that every IP-based company *should* be doing...

Duncan_Idaho wrote:

IMO, it sounds like a bankruptcy shell game. Rackham is moving the IP to a separate licensing company so that, "if" (haha, *when*) they go under, the IP is protected from creditors.

Be warned, your are walking on legaly dangerous ground with such accusations.

They were under protection, not in bankrupcy mode, french and english law are quite different.

Oh, really? :S :S :S

How about you specify what the danger is, and precisely what I've accused that runs afoul of the law?

The way I see it, there are two possibilities:
1. The investing company is smart and set up a shell to properly protect the IP investment
2. Rackham continues to be mis-managed and has left their IP exposed

If they were under protection, then actual insolvency was imminent. Otherwise, you don't seek bankruptcy protection from creditors.

Really?

You aren't overreacting a tad here, are you?

That´s normal law. If you accuse a company of doing something like a phoenix, than that´s accusing them of something that, if true, can cause some people of the company to go to jail or at least pay a hefty fine. If the accused did not do such thing, you are distributing rumours that could hurt their business. Some companies like GW react very agressive when confronted with such behaviour. Rackham up until now did not care much. But with the new structure of the company, who knows...

It´s just a friendly hint by me to be more careful.

And again, french protection program is completely different from the american Chapter system.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Some companies like GW react very agressive when confronted with such behaviour.

GW made legal moves against an internet forum poster? When? Never!

Internet Court is gonna get ya!

They forced a german forum to go offline because they did not like what happned there and that´s only on instance. Also folks being stupid enough to release playtesters stuff on forums got visited by lawyers. A non-disclosure agreement is standard when such things happen and probably most people don´t parade arround that because of their own behaviour they got sued.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:That´s normal law. If you accuse a company of doing something like a phoenix, than that´s accusing them of something that, if true, can cause some people of the company to go to jail or at least pay a hefty fine. If the accused did not do such thing, you are distributing rumours that could hurt their business. Some companies like GW react very agressive when confronted with such behaviour. Rackham up until now did not care much. But with the new structure of the company, who knows...

Did I accuse them of doing anything illegal? No.

I suggested that they had done something *smart* (and legal).

And I made no statements of fact, just supposition, so it's not rumor-mongering.

If you're going to call the Internet Police, try to get a rock to stand on.

Or maybe, I should call the Intarwebz Cops on you, for being foolish!

Duncan_Idaho wrote:They forced a german forum to go offline because they did not like what happned there and that´s only on instance. Also folks being stupid enough to release playtesters stuff on forums got visited by lawyers. A non-disclosure agreement is standard when such things happen and probably most people don´t parade arround that because of their own behaviour they got sued.

IP theft? Not even in the same ball park as making scurrilous accusations on the internet and you know it. If I posted material in breach of an NDA on a website any company would come down on me like a ton of bricks not just Rackham or GW.

IF JohnHwangDD was making Jean Bey voodoo dolls you'd nearly have a point. As it is you don't.

Tough crowd on this forum being a new guy here I was warned this can be a rough place!

Kinda like being a Hindu at the Vatican!
LOL!

Saint Anuman wrote:Tough crowd on this forum being a new guy here I was warned this can be a rough place!

Kinda like being a Hindu at the Vatican!

In my experience, it's always more like being Bernie Mac in a Klan meeting, but the general principle stands.

Yeah, i've been comign here a lot longer than the R forums, and it's still like being pushed into a bear-pit.

Well if Rackham is foing straight Website Direct ordering they better get a US shipping center. I went just yesterday and was looking at ordering a SINGLE FIGURE and they wanted $20 shipping, and more if you wanted faster than 7-10 days. I know it's expensive to ship overseas so it makes sense but if they want to sell to us "yanks" they better figure out a way to reduce shipping to what we are used to seeing for domestic shipping.

I hope no-one feels too unwelcome.

Dakka has a rep for straight talking no BS, so if you make a sweeping statement you'll often be called to back it up with facts.

On the plus side there are a lot of knowledgeable players of GW and other games, and lots of good advice on the modelling and painting aspects of wargaming.

The Moderation policy is to prevent personal abuse, swearing and -isms generally. Please make use of the Mod Alert button if you need to.

Muggzy wrote:Well if Rackham is foing straight Website Direct ordering they better get a US shipping center. I went just yesterday and was looking at ordering a SINGLE FIGURE and they wanted $20 shipping, and more if you wanted faster than 7-10 days. I know it's expensive to ship overseas so it makes sense but if they want to sell to us "yanks" they better figure out a way to reduce shipping to what we are used to seeing for domestic shipping.

I'd just wait a bit. They'll have one, or more, US distributors moving their product quite soon.

Hey Mike sent you a pm good to see ya!

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Saint Anuman wrote:Tough crowd on this forum being a new guy here I was warned this can be a rough place!

Kinda like being a Hindu at the Vatican!

In my experience, it's always more like being Bernie Mac in a Klan meeting, but the general principle stands.

What about Dave Chapelle hosting a Klan meeting?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Saint Anuman wrote:Tough crowd on this forum being a new guy here I was warned this can be a rough place!

Kinda like being a Hindu at the Vatican!

In my experience, it's always more like being Bernie Mac in a Klan meeting, but the general principle stands.

What about Dave Chapelle hosting a Klan meeting?

Or being the requisite Nigerian at an all white university?

Methinks you haven't seen that sketch on the Chapelle Show?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Methinks you haven't seen that sketch on the Chapelle Show?

Methinks you haven't seen the stand up about requisite Nigerians at every US University that's older than the Chapelle show and was also aired on Comedy Central.

Being on Daka is like being a frog or snail in France....

Being on dakka is great because you get the extremes of biased and unbiased comments without BS. Black and white with no boring grey!

back on topic.

yamaneko an user on rackham forums PM'd Jbey about the metals and he got the following reply.

I got a PM reply from Mr. Bey about the metals.

Quote:
Yes, Rackham Entertainment will continue to produce and restock, new models and the existing metal miniatures. This new venture have the capacity to produce regulary all the necessary restock on the missing models, and we are working actually on restocking lots of missing items.

We will do even more for those who like painting their minis (but details will be on the upcoming Rackham Entertainment games and shedule announcement).

Have a good day,

Jean.

These are the news I was waiting to hear for 2 years... lets wait and see what's sheduled for the painter community.
Good news.

Yeah, good to hear they're planning a US distribution. No way am I ever ordering from overseas.

And good to hear they plan on keeping up with the metals.Thats about the only reason to buy from Rackham.

NAVARRO wrote:Being on dakka is great because you get the extremes of biased and really biased comments without treating others like they're part of the same species as you. Black and white with no boring intellectual discourse!

Fixed your typos.

So fixing typos is your bright idea of "intellectual discourse"?

Great!

NAVARRO wrote:So fixing typos is your bright idea of "intellectual discourse"?

Great!

Actually it was a joke. Not that I should have expected you to get it. You can't figure out when a game is dead.

NAVARRO wrote:So fixing typos is malfred's idea of "Internet based procrastination"? Great!

Why yes, it is. Thanks.

Scottywan82 wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:So fixing typos is your bright idea of "intellectual discourse"?

Great!

Actually it was a joke. Not that I should have expected you to get it. You can't figure out when a game is dead.

Wow!

Throw gas on fires much?

Surprisingly, the thread hasn't locked or brought up any Modquisition alerts. Perhaps Rackam really *is* (perceived as) dead?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Surprisingly, the thread hasn't locked or brought up any Modquisition alerts. Perhaps Rackam really *is* (perceived as) dead?

No, I think the thread hasn't solicited any reason to lock it by forum rules.

Scottywan82 wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:So fixing typos is your bright idea of "intellectual discourse"?

Great!

Actually it was a joke. Not that I should have expected you to get it. You can't figure out when a game is dead.

A joke really? For a moment there it looked like it was your ussual blind attitude towards the comunities you attend to...
You say dakka lacks "intellectual discourse" and the users of rackham forum are a "stupid-a$$ bull$gak whiners"... both because they sometimes have a diferent position and opinions towards something.

Thats really a showoff of intelectual maturity you should be very proud of
Funny!

But whats really very funny is that you accuse me of not accepting the game is dead and you are the one not only not accepting but antagonizing, atacking, flaming the current fan majority of displeased people towards rackham... On every chance you get. Everywere. Now thats being intelectuall

Also whats strange and a contradition of your "Kool aid guy" nick name is that you concentraded on making "jokes" about dakka instead of the first good news posted about rackham in a loooong time.
Odd.

Well I feel sorry for those who like to support rackham in a constructive way like sentinels or just fans of PPP and have to deal with you... theres a big diference about being exited about a game and making a pointless internet crusade towards everyone who thinks differently about rackham ways.

I dont know if rackham wouldnt be alot better served without your (and some rarities like you who appeard and disapeard so fast before) negative agenda.

I just want to paint some nice minis and that doest include dealing with you. ops sorry wrong finger

Hopeful are they going to restart the skirmish ruleset? I really enjoyed 3.5 it was arguably my favourite set I was very annoyed. Customer Service wise Rackham was very good when a set of miniatures posted to me was misdirected they sent me another set without trouble. This could be very good news.

Most of us are waiting for the "good news" still.

Yes, most of us would also like to see the return of 'true' skirmish rules, but most of us are not holding our breath.