With the introduction of 5th edition, the question has arisen of whether Eldritch Storm scatters now.

Would someone be able to analyse the rules and come up with a conclusion for it?

From what i understand is that even tho it is a blast template it is a psychic power and therefor forgoes the normal rule for blast template and it has never required a BS test nor line of sight, there for to me it does not and should not scatter ^^ but thats just IMHO

Squig_herder wrote:From what i understand is that even tho it is a blast template it is a psychic power and therefor forgoes the normal rule for blast template and it has never required a BS test nor line of sight, there for to me it does not and should not scatter ^^ but thats just IMHO

It's a psychic shooting attack so it still would require line of sight I think (I could be wrong) but it definitely specifies it's own rules for determining what is hit, which don't include a scatter, and so it wouldn't have to check scatter.

It's a shooting attack, so should follow the shooting rules (unless it specifies a different shooting system)

Antonin wrote:It's a shooting attack, so should follow the shooting rules (unless it specifies a different shooting system)

the eldar codex states that the eldar psyker does not require line of sight unless stated in the psychic power rules

let me put this one to rest for once and for all

Eldar Codex: farseer psychic powers wrote:
pg.28 ....do not require the eldar psyker to have line of sight to target

Eldar Codex: farseer psychic powers wrote:
Eldrich Storm [pg.28]
this psychic power is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. the eldar player places the lager blast marker centred on an enemy model within 18". vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 armour penetration and are spun around to face in a random direction determined by the scatter dice - if a hit is rolled the eldar player may choose its facing

As it is a psychic power and does require line of sight it does not scatter

i hope that helps everyone and ends this discussion

RE: Rules questions: EldarFriday, January 30, 2009 3:23 PM
From: "Ask Your Question" <askyourquestion@Games-Workshop.com>Add sender to Contacts To: demonbunnyman@yahoo.comHello,
Eldrich Storm does not scatter.

Thanks!

John Spencer
Customer Service Specialist

Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve
you better!

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And from the INAT FAQ
"ELD.28C.01 – Q: Does a player using Eldritch Storm have to roll for scatter?
A: Yes, roll for scatter as with any other blast weapon [clarification]."

SeattleDV8 wrote:And from the INAT FAQ
"ELD.28C.01 – Q: Does a player using Eldritch Storm have to roll for scatter?
A: Yes, roll for scatter as with any other blast weapon [clarification]."

John Spencer and the INAT FAQ bump heads yet again. This one is a tough one though. It really can be interpreted either way, although I am leaning toward it not scattering due to the wording in the rule book that was quoted above.

it makes it a bit of a rubbish power but yes, as its used instead of shooting a weapon in the shooting phase it acts like any other blast in 5ed..

The prisms tank focoused & unfocoused didnt scatter in 4ed as didnt eldritch storm as was intended but due to the rebalancing of the game all blast weapon scatter.

Eldrich Storm [pg.28]
this psychic power is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. the eldar player places the lager blast marker centred on an enemy model within 18". vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 armour penetration and are spun around to face in a random direction determined by the scatter dice - if a hit is rolled the eldar player may choose its facing


Sounds like it doesn't scatter.
1. Doesn't require line of sight
2. Used in place of firing a weapon
3. Place a large blast marker (marker)?
4. Doesn't mention to scatter the marker, but instead goes right on to what else this power does.
5. Cause John Spencer said so :p

I'm sure a few of my remarks are complete non-sense, but actually forget that... I wonder what john spencer says about firing this thing from a waveserpent with no firing port, even though the power does not need line of sight. .....

Attention deficient disorder strikes again!

Well it basically comes down to 5ed Psychic powers.. theyve been updated.

Do powers that taking place in the shooting phase instead of the psyker firing a weapon count as "Psyhic Shooting attacks"

I think that any arguement pro-Eldritch storm scatter would have to concur that yes, they are Psychic shooting attacks.. just worded in the language 4ed used.

My key point to validate this opinion (That eldritch storm & others worded like it are Psychic shooting attacks) is that the Warlock power Destructor is worded in exactly the same way and looks to be very much like a Psychic shooting attack.

If any/all of these are psyhic shooting attacks than they follow the rules as per BGB P50 so yes, they would scatter.

Likewise if a nice farseer cast guide on herself.. she would get to re-roll this scatter.

Based on the way the rule reads I wouldn't have expected the player controlling the farseer to roll a D6 to hit in 4th edition so I don't think they need to roll scatter in 5th.

Based on the way the rules read in 4ed I didnt expect to roll to scatter my fireprism focoused shot.

Yet I have to roll to scatter in 5ed.

Whats your point?

Razerous wrote:
If any/all of these are psyhic shooting attacks than they follow the rules as per BGB P50 so yes, they would scatter.

Are you sure? Do they have to follow the rules in the BRB, what if something in the eldar codex overrides some of the rules for shooting attacks in the BRB? Just saying cause its not like this is totally obvious. What if this thing is using the blast marker, but its not a blast weapon? Then its not different that the now defunct fury of the ancients.

I mean.. the place where the term "Psychic Shooting Attack" would be in the eldar codex, its simply "This power is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon" which by itself (circa 4ed) is quite clear in its meaning but with the new rulebook with updated terminology its a case of wether(sp?) or not these powers with that phrase count as Psychic shooting attacks.

All of the shooty psychic powers in the new 5ed friendly SM codex have the term Psychic Shooting attack where-applicable & have various expecptions/extra rules.

So I do think they should follow the psychic shooty rules in the BGB as that what seems to be intended.

Sadly that's a argument for RAI, which isn't to say its not valid. But... what if Eldar are truly meant to be exceptions to the rule? I honestly don't know one way or the other. I know that it doesn't say Psychic Shooting Attack, and I know that Eldar won't be getting a new codex for at least 2yrs maybe 3. And if INAT says one thing and John Spencer says another, its pretty much a toss up. I mean I generally trust Dakka FAQ's to be gold, but somethings like this one are odd. For instance, in 4th edition, we neither rolled to hit or scattered edlritch storm (right?) Whats changed about the wording of eldritch storm to make it more like a true shooting attack, the codex appears to have rules that are specific to this power that are more precise in their wording than the main rulebook. So with RAW, you take the specific of the codex, and ignore the BRB where it conflicts. I don't think its reasonable that if one codex says one thing, and another codex says another, that you take the writing of an alien codex in place of the one where an ability is in question. I think GW made some sort of annoucement to that effect just recently anyhow. Aka, dark angels still get overpriced drop pods, whilst space marines have cheaper ones (least I recall the new space marine codex has cheaper drop pods still)

I can only wonder what the next eldar codex will say about this...

Razerous wrote:I mean.. the place where the term "Psychic Shooting Attack" would be in the eldar codex, its simply "This power is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon" which by itself (circa 4ed) is quite clear in its meaning but with the new rulebook with updated terminology its a case of wether(sp?) or not these powers with that phrase count as Psychic shooting attacks.

All of the shooty psychic powers in the new 5ed friendly SM codex have the term Psychic Shooting attack where-applicable & have various expecptions/extra rules.

So I do think they should follow the psychic shooty rules in the BGB as that what seems to be intended.

It is a weapon as it comes with a profile range:18" S:3 AP- Pinning, Large Blast... Till its FAQ you place the template and scatter it as all blast scatter 2D6-BS" or 2D6" if you don't have LOS.

SeattleDV8 wrote:And from the INAT FAQ
"ELD.28C.01 – Q: Does a player using Eldritch Storm have to roll for scatter?
A: Yes, roll for scatter as with any other blast weapon [clarification]."

The inat guys live on another planet or what? Their answers are as daft as it gets.
First i have to pass a psychic test, possibly frying my brains, then the template scatters possibly landing on my own stuff, then the effect is again randomized with a second scatter roll to see which direction the thing spins? And it's not like it's str 10 ap1 or anything, STR3 effing AP- ... INAT =DAFT


And don't get me started on the poodle that isn't a dog anymore, because it's 'special'.

nostromo wrote:

SeattleDV8 wrote:And from the INAT FAQ
"ELD.28C.01 – Q: Does a player using Eldritch Storm have to roll for scatter?
A: Yes, roll for scatter as with any other blast weapon [clarification]."

The inat guys live on another planet or what? Their answers are as daft as it gets.
First i have to pass a psychic test, possibly frying my brains, then the template scatters possibly landing on my own stuff, then the effect is again randomized with a second scatter roll to see which direction the thing spins? And it's not like it's str 10 ap1 or anything, STR3 effing AP- ... INAT =DAFT


And don't get me started on the poodle that isn't a dog anymore, because it's 'special'.

When you roll to scatter, you use the directional arrow on the scatter die to determine where the vehicle ends up facing unless a hit is rolled then the player can choose the vehicles orienatation.

Dont blame a poor low-powered psychic power on game mechanics.

It will only ever scatter 12". You shouldnt really have units near a target about to be hit by a large blast marker. Ill give that one for free.

Of course it doesn't scatter. The codex explains exactly how the power functions including how to determine hits. This explanation does not include scatter so the Eldritch Storm does not scatter.

The only thing you use the scatter dice for is to determine the direction of facing.

Arguing this should scatter is even less valid than trying to say a Shokk Attack Gun 5,6 result scatters, or that a Weirdboy's Frazzle power scatters, or that his Zzapp power has to roll to hit. In all these cases the codex overrides the usual to-hit rules by clearly stating which models are hit without requiring scatter.

You only scatter in order to determine which models are hit. You only need to do this for weapons or powers that do not include their own rules for determining which models are hit.

GW Official FAQ wrote:
Q: Which Eldar psychic powers are psychic shooting attacks?

A: Destructor, Eldritch Storm and Mind War (though they include a few exceptions to the normal shooting rules as specified in their descriptions).

It is a shooting attack, but the codex specifies an exception to the normal shooting rules: it doesn't say anything about scatter (or LoS). We know that the codex supersedes the BGB on specific rules.

So just do what the description says to do--place template, LoS not required, no scatter, roll wounds--and don't assume a lot of stuff that isn't mentioned.

Codex > Core Rule Book
but only if it tells you to ignore something in the RB other wise you follow the rules in BGB

The farseer would still need to see the target to use Eldrich storm.. I dont care if it does not explicitly say that you need to see the target, it says that you counts as firing a weapon (just like a physic shooting attack in RB). All weapons unless otherwise stated would still req LOS. If you agree that its a PSS then it would still need LOS by RAW. either way it would still count just as any other blast weapon in this case Assault 1 Large Blast. just read through p50 of your rule book. Physic Shooting Attacks. My pont is that it would still scatter just like any blast weapon.

The Eldar codex over-rules the BRB psychic rules .
No LOS is needed.
I still think it scatters though.

Psf, you might want to check your Eldar codex. The section on Eldar psychic powers specifies that they do not require LOS unless noted. The only one that notes that is DOES is Mind War.

Further, Eldritch Storm tells us exactly how to use the power. It states that you "place the template". It says nothing about rolling to hit etc. If you don't roll to hit you do not roll to scatter as that is how blast weapons roll to hit.

There is no ambiguity here, the rules in the codex tells us exactly how the power works. Trying to lump it in with all the other generic shooting psychic powers is an error. Just because it has a strength and an AP, does not mean it follows all the rules for shooting, especially when it dictates otherwise.

Read the rules on eldar psychic powers. They are used at the start of the turn & dont require LOS. Refer to the psychic powers section in the 40k RB

Thats basically what it says in the eldar dex.

Now go to the section on psychic powers. Im pretty sure that while its not stated specifically in the eldar dex (coz its 4ed) that all those shooty-like powers are infact Psyhic Shooting Attacks

Follow those rules using the exceptions provided by the eldar codex. Which includes not needing LOS as its mentioned Specifically at the top of the pg.

Its pretty simple. Who would like to refute this?

Eldar Codex Page 28
Eldrich Storm: ...This physic power is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon.

Eldar FAQ from Games workshop
Q: Which Eldar physic powers count as physic shooting attacks?
A: Destructor, Eldrich Storm, and Mind War (though the include a few exceptions to the normal shooting rules, as specified in their description

The Question then falls to if this is resolved just like any other shooting attack with reguard to having a weapon profile. ES has its own weapon profile. To me this suggest that it would be resolved as any PSS, and thus would need LOS. All other weapon profiles that do not require LOS say so in their descriptor explicitly. While the general rule for the
Physic powers says it needs LOS unless it says, then it needs LOS, it would follow the weapon profile.
If it did not req LOS then it could be done in a WS or Falcon.

IMO you cant have it both ways regard to it being a PSS and not need LOS.

Kyrolon wrote:
Further, Eldritch Storm tells us exactly how to use the power. It states that you "place the template". It says nothing about rolling to hit etc. If you don't roll to hit you do not roll to scatter as that is how blast weapons roll to hit.

There is no ambiguity here, the rules in the codex tells us exactly how the power works. Trying to lump it in with all the other generic shooting psychic powers is an error. Just because it has a strength and an AP, does not mean it follows all the rules for shooting, especially when it dictates otherwise.

BRB Pg.30 "when firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker....."
Not so different.

Ahem. The BRB rules then go on to tell us how to work out which models are hit - which is to say, by scattering the marker.

In contrast, the Eldar codex tells us exactly how to work out which models are hit - which is to say, by looking at the models under the template without scattering it at all.

psf3077 wrote:

Eldar Codex Page 28
Eldrich Storm: ...This physic power is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon.

Eldar FAQ from Games workshop
Q: Which Eldar physic powers count as physic shooting attacks?
A: Destructor, Eldrich Storm, and Mind War (though the include a few exceptions to the normal shooting rules, as specified in their description

The Question then falls to if this is resolved just like any other shooting attack with reguard to having a weapon profile. ES has its own weapon profile. To me this suggest that it would be resolved as any PSS, and thus would need LOS. All other weapon profiles that do not require LOS say so in their descriptor explicitly. While the general rule for the
Physic powers says it needs LOS unless it says, then it needs LOS, it would follow the weapon profile.
If it did not req LOS then it could be done in a WS or Falcon.

IMO you cant have it both ways regard to it being a PSS and not need LOS.

Why do you keep bringing up it needing LOS when the codex specifically said it doesnt require los?

You use it during shooting phase , place template on 1 model in range to farseer, and pew pew.

Where is the confusion?

Raraara.. I didnt realised It was FAQ'ed.

Eldritch storm is a psychic shooting attack.

It scatter as per blast weapon rules.

Anything else is beside the point. (Oh yes..ofcourse it doesnt require LOS because its a stated exception. it still counts as a Psychic shooting attack otherwise)

Anything else is beside the point - like the fact you're plucking your argument out of thin air, when the codex clearly states how you work out hits so scattering the template will have no effect on which models are hit?

Boss Ardnutz wrote:Anything else is beside the point - like the fact you're plucking your argument out of thin air, when the codex clearly states how you work out hits so scattering the template will have no effect on which models are hit?

Do you have a different version of the codex then I do? My version says:

"The Eldar places the large blast centered on an enemy model within 18". Vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 armour penetration and are spun around to face in a direction determined by the scatter dice -- if a hit is rolled the Eldar player may choose its facing."


Besides vehicles, I don't see anything at all about how models are hit by Eldritch storm. Or am I misunderstanding your point?

Flavius Infernus wrote:

GW Official FAQ wrote:
Q: Which Eldar psychic powers are psychic shooting attacks?

A: Destructor, Eldritch Storm and Mind War (though they include a few exceptions to the normal shooting rules as specified in their descriptions).

It is a shooting attack, but the codex specifies an exception to the normal shooting rules: it doesn't say anything about scatter (or LoS). We know that the codex supersedes the BGB on specific rules.

So just do what the description says to do--place template, LoS not required, no scatter, roll wounds--and don't assume a lot of stuff that isn't mentioned.

I'm surprised that this is the conclusion you've come to. Eldritch storm is clearly a psychic shooting attack, the FAQ tells us as much. That means we follow all the rules for shooting except where specified otherwise.

So again, let's look at the things that are specified in Eldritch Storm:

"The Eldar places the large blast centered on an enemy model within 18". Vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 armour penetration and are spun around to face in a direction determined by the scatter dice -- if a hit is rolled the Eldar player may choose its facing."

and:

"Unless otherwise noted, these powers. . .do not require the Eldar psyker to have line of sight to its target."



So I read three exceptions noted to the basic shooting rules:

1) Line of Sight is not required.
2) The blast has to be centered over an enemy model instead of placed anywhere over its base/hull as usual.
3) Vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 armor penetration and are spun around.


So I don't see any basis for ignoring any of the other shooting rules.

All 3 of those exceptions can be followed while rolling for scatter on the blast, figuring out who is hit using the standard blast rules, rolling to wound as normal, casualty removal rules as normal, cover saves as normal.

Well now that I think about it, Yak, I guess it comes down to how you decide to apply the FAQ part about "exceptions to the normal shooting rules."

You can either read that phrase--as I think you do--as meaning that all shooting rules are in effect except for those specifically nullified in the description.

Or you can read it--as I did yesterday--as meaning that the *entire description* of how ES works is an exception to the normal shooting rules. So anything not specified in the codex description doesn't happen.

Yesterday I was pretty sure that I was right, but today I feel like it's less clear than I originally thought.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Well now that I think about it, Yak, I guess it comes down to how you decide to apply the FAQ part about "exceptions to the normal shooting rules."

You can either read that phrase--as I think you do--as meaning that all shooting rules are in effect except for those specifically nullified in the description.

Or you can read it--as I did yesterday--as meaning that the *entire description* of how ES works is an exception to the normal shooting rules. So anything not specified in the codex description doesn't happen.

Yesterday I was pretty sure that I was right, but today I feel like it's less clear than I originally thought.

I'm with you in spirit. I don't think Eldritch Storm is *supposed* to scatter, but looking at the rules I just don't see any justification for that belief.

Mind War, for example, is a shooting attack but it doesn't have a Strength, or roll to wound, etc. so it is much more clear that it makes a clean break away from the shooting rules and is entirely self-contained and therefore doesn't require a roll to hit.

But take a look at Eldritch storm again. It isn't self-contained. It has a weapon profile and then lists a couple of exceptions (that I posted above) but beyond that requires players to use the shooting rules to resolve the attack.

If we have to use the shooting rules to determine who is hit by the blast, why would we not have to follow the rules for scatter? Centering the blast over an enemy model is certainly not a clear command not to scatter the blast, although it seems as though many people are trying to assume that it is.

Literally, Eldritch is storming all over your junk. Everyone knows that no one is psychically potent enough to surgically strike with Eldritch. Eldritch does what it wants. That's why it has to scatter.

Also, Yakface makes the most sense by far, so I have to agree with him, as usual. He didn't even have to type-yell it at me with bold font or say how stupid everyone is that disagrees.

In the FAQ Council discussions, the point that Yak brought up is what carried the argument. IIRC.

Here my argument:
In the ork codex, the wording of the weirdboy psychic power 'Frazzle' specifies that it hits automaticly.
In the Eldar codex, the wording of the farseer psychic power 'Eldritch Storm' doesn't specify. Therefore it scatters

Both codexes were written in 4th Ed, so you can't argue that the rules change had an effect.

DemonBunnyMan wrote:RE: Rules questions: EldarFriday, January 30, 2009 3:23 PM
From: "Ask Your Question" <askyourquestion@Games-Workshop.com>Add sender to Contacts To: demonbunnyman@yahoo.comHello,
Eldrich Storm does not scatter.

Thanks!

John Spencer
Customer Service Specialist

With regards to the INAT FAQ, what do we intend to do with this little gem?

lol well it solved the issue with my gaming group: its a psychic shooting attack that wont scatter. This is how we are playing it till we see a codex.

Here's the thing.

Nowhere in the BRB does it say that psychic shooting attacks automatically follow all the rules for normal shooting. It specifically lists on pg 50 the ways that phycic shooting attacks are similar to normal shooting, and the scatter of blasts is not mentioned.

HOwever, in the first paragraph on pg 50 it states that the "complete rules" for individual powers are found in the Codexes. The "complete rules" for Eldritch Storm never mention scatter in the Eldar Codex. You simply place the blast marker.

Because of these two points, there is no reason to come to a RAW conclusion that ES must scatter. It just isn't there in either book. It is also the reason that John Spencer has systematically answered that ES does not scatter. There is no mention of ES or psychic shooting attacks being forced to scatter in either the BRB or the Eldar dex. For any psychic shootign attack to be forced to scatter, it would have to be listed in its own dex...as per its "complete rules".

Alerian wrote:Because of these two points, there is no reason to come to a RAW conclusion...It is also the reason that John Spencer has systematically answered that ES does not scatter.

Honestly, we do not know that. There is little evidence for or against the Spencer Team following structured rules arguments when deciding upon GW's position; this doesn't change the fact that he consistently answers such questions however.

Actually the codex never mentions scatter, it could be implied that you just use the normal blast rules or that you don't. This was a 4th Ed codex and rule, it is badly in need of a FAQ.

That is exactly my point. The BRB says (on pg 50) to use the "complete rules" for psychic powers as listed in the Codex. Since the newest Codex never mentions scatter, there is nothing to infer. If scatter isn't explicitly mentioned, then it is not part of the rules for Eldritch Storm. Period.

Alerian wrote:That is exactly my point. The BRB says (on pg 50) to use the "complete rules" for psychic powers as listed in the Codex. Since the newest Codex never mentions scatter, there is nothing to infer. If scatter isn't explicitly mentioned, then it is not part of the rules for Eldritch Storm. Period.

The Codex ALSO never mentions how to inflict and remove casualties. In fact, about the only thing the codex would allow you to do is spin vehicles, as the vehicle damage tables aren't presented there, either.

Now you are just reaching.

The fact is, the BRB never mentions that you need to "roll to hit" with any psychic shooting attack, whether by a normal BS roll or for scatter. Unless a specific codex requires you to do so for a specific power, you do not. It refers us directly to the individual Codexes for the rules for all powers, only giving us a few general guidlines on how to use psychic shooting attacks...none of which mention rolling to hit or for scatter.

Saying that Eldritch Storm has to roll scatter dice is like saying that Mind War has to roll to hit first...after all they are both psychic shooting attacks. No one is saying that, because it is just stupid. However, if you want to apply normal shooting to one, you have to do it to both. Of course, doing so would force you to use a completely madeup ruleset.

You can't apply normal shooting rules to either, because their "complete rules" do not allow you to do so. Both powers tell you specifically how to use them. Mindwar does not have to roll to hit, and Eldritch Storm does not have to roll for scatter.

I challenge anyone to show where on pg 50, the only place where psychic powers are dealt with in the BRB, to show where all psychic shooting attacks must roll to hit or scatter. Or, to show where the Eldar codex says that Eldritch Storm must do the same. The fact is, neither the BRB's rules for psychic abilites, nor the Eldar codex even hint at requiring rolls to hit (with normal BS) or rolls for scatter.

.... can you show me where it says blasts don't scatter?

If you do want to see how GW right rules see CODEX SM page57

"Vortex of DooooooM
This power is a psychic shooting attack and has the following profile

Range 12" str:10 AP:1 Heavy 1, Blast

If when using this power the librarian fails his psychic test, place the VoD blastmarker on the librarian - in this case the template will not scatter"

note the only time scattering is mentioned is when it doesn't happen

Tri wrote:.... can you show me where it says blasts don't scatter?

If you do want to see how GW right rules see CODEX SM page57

"Vortex of DooooooM
This power is a psychic shooting attack and has the following profile

Range 12" str:10 AP:1 Heavy 1, Blast

If when using this power the librarian fails his psychic test, place the VoD blastmarker on the librarian - in this case the template will not scatter"

note the only time scattering is mentioned is when it doesn't happen

There is no need to.

You just gave an example where a specific Codex menitons that a certain power scatters...so it does. Please refer back to page 50 of the BRB where it tell sus to read the individaul dex's for the "complete rules" for all powers. Vortex of Doom mentions scatter, so it does. Eldritch Storm does not mention scatter, so it doesn't. Just because something scatters in the SM dex, it doesn't mean that every other power scatters in every other dex.

To prove that Eldrtich Storm scatters, you must find the proof in the BRB pg 50, or in the Eldar Codex, as those are the only places that give rules for using Eldar psychic powers. Another different Codex does not offer anything to this discussion. (Not to mention, you have to disagree with GW's John Spencer, who says it does not scatter.)

I know you were trying to prove me wrong, but I thank you for actually making my point about individual codexes and indiviual powers

Exceptions are only needed where a codex rule would break or modify the BRB.
You got Tri's point backwards , the codex said the power does NOT scatter for VoD. This would break the normal blast rules and needs to have permission to do so.
ES does not mention scatter so we have to go to the base rules for a blast weapon.

SeattleDV8 wrote:Exceptions are only needed where a codex rule would break or modify the BRB.
You got Tri's point backwards , the codex said the power does NOT scatter for VoD. This would break the normal blast rules and needs to have permission to do so.
ES does not mention scatter so we have to go to the base rules for a blast weapon.

Wrong.

You still have yet to show anywhere on pg 50 where psychic shooting attacks have to roll to hit, or that they have to roll for scatter. Instead, it refers us to the individual codex for the "complete rules". Show me anywhere in the complete rules for Eldrich Storm that it must either roll to hit or for scatter. It isn't there. There is NO default rule that says that psychic shooting attacks must roll to hit, or that they have to roll for scatter. Show me that on pg 50 where it lists the rest of the psychic shooting rules, or please concede.

Until then, you are just making up rules.

The eldar dex was written for 4th edition rules...in 4th blasts didn't scatter and you had to roll for partial hits for blast/template wepons. In 5th everthing under the blast template is hit and unless stated otherwise, blast wepons scatter... Since the rules updated the codex's use the new rules unless stated otherwise therefor ES scatters as normal (clear as day imo). Besides aren't farseers BS 5? so it probably wont be scattering much anyway.

Alerian wrote:

Wrong.

You still have yet to show anywhere on pg 50 where psychic shooting attacks have to roll to hit, or that they have to roll for scatter. Instead, it refers us to the individual codex for the "complete rules". Show me anywhere in the complete rules for Eldrich Storm that it must either roll to hit or for scatter. It isn't there. There is NO default rule that says that psychic shooting attacks must roll to hit, or that they have to roll for scatter. Show me that on pg 50 where it lists the rest of the psychic shooting rules, or please concede.

Until then, you are just making up rules.

No problem. Page 50, under "Psychic Shooting Attacks":

"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack."


Right there in black and white, using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon, and as with all ranged weapons in the game you follow the rules for shooting when doing so. They give some examples of what that means in the rulebook, but they are just examples. A psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon and therefore follows all the rules for doing so except where specified otherwise in the psychic power's rules.


And more importantly, you can't have it both ways. Eldritch storm does not tell you what models are hit (besides vehicles), it does not tell you how models are damaged by it (besides vehicles), it does not discuss how armor saves and casualties are resolved and it does not discuss how cover saves are utilized (if at all).

You MUST use the shooting rules for these steps, so why exactly do you feel that the roll for scatter would not be included?

Casper wrote:The eldar dex was written for 4th edition rules...in 4th blasts didn't scatter and you had to roll for partial hits for blast/template wepons. In 5th everthing under the blast template is hit and unless stated otherwise, blast wepons scatter... Since the rules updated the codex's use the new rules unless stated otherwise therefor ES scatters as normal (clear as day imo). Besides aren't farseers BS 5? so it probably wont be scattering much anyway.

Wrong again.

By default, you must always roll to hit with shooting attacks, not so with psychic shooting attacks. There is no default that says you must roll to hit with psychic shooting. Period. You would only roll to hit (or to scatter) if the individual power told you that you had to. Psychic shooting IS different than normal shooting, in that there is NO default need "to hit" first. All you do is test for the power. You only roll to hit or scatter if the power tells you to.

Again...please show me where the BRB EVER says on pg 50 that psychic powers must roll to hit or scatter. It isn't there.

For there to be a default rule to roll for scatter with pyschic shooting, you would also have to enforce a default rule to hit (using the caster's BS) for all non-blast psychic shooting. You can't say that one type of psychic shooting attacks follows all the normal rules for shooting by default, without placing the same enforcement on them all. The fact is, nowhere does it say that psychic shooting must roll to hit, nor does it say that they must roll for scatter. Stating that one must roll to hit or to scatter is an inferrence that has NO RAW to back it up on pg 50 of the BRB.

yakface wrote:

Alerian wrote:

Wrong.

You still have yet to show anywhere on pg 50 where psychic shooting attacks have to roll to hit, or that they have to roll for scatter. Instead, it refers us to the individual codex for the "complete rules". Show me anywhere in the complete rules for Eldrich Storm that it must either roll to hit or for scatter. It isn't there. There is NO default rule that says that psychic shooting attacks must roll to hit, or that they have to roll for scatter. Show me that on pg 50 where it lists the rest of the psychic shooting rules, or please concede.

Until then, you are just making up rules.

No problem. Page 50, under "Psychic Shooting Attacks":

"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack."


Right there in black and white, using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon, and as with all ranged weapons in the game you follow the rules for shooting when doing so. They give some examples of what that means in the rulebook, but they are just examples. A psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon and therefore follows all the rules for doing so except where specified otherwise in the psychic power's rules.


And more importantly, you can't have it both ways. Eldritch storm does not tell you what models are hit (besides vehicles), it does not tell you how models are damaged by it (besides vehicles), it does not discuss how armor saves and casualties are resolved and it does not discuss how cover saves are utilized (if at all).

You MUST use the shooting rules for these steps, so why exactly do you feel that the roll for scatter would not be included?

Yes, it says it counts as firing a weapon( for the purposes of movement, targeting and running), but it does not say that you roll to hit with it, like you do with a weapon.

The problem is that you are enforcing a roll to hit for blast psychic powers and not all other psychic shooting.

By your reasoning all psychic shooting should have to roll to hit, unless it specifically said the power didn't..including Mind War. Mind War is a psychic shooting attack, so by your logic, one should also have to roll to hit with it..which is rediculous. It tells us how it works. So does Eldritch Storm.

You guys are trying to pick and choose which powers must follow all the shooting rules and which ones don't. The BRB tells how pyschic shooting is similiar to normal shooting; it doesn not say that it is identical to it. If it was, it would tell us to follow all the rules for normal shooting...no such ruling is there. The only way you know how a power works is by doing what the codex says. If it says to roll to hit, then roll to hit. If it says roll for scatter, then roll for scatter. if not, then you do EXACTLY waht the codex says. The BRB does not say that by default you roll to hit/scatter, unless the codex states otherwise. It just says to follow the codex.

Besides, as has already been mentioned, John Spencer has been saying for 6 months that you do not roll for scatter with ES...when are you guys finally gonn alisten to GWs rep?

Alerian, your post make me laugh...Yak gave you the page number, quote and the rule with no changes. Yak has it right...you cant have the best of 4th and 5th edition...

Besides Mind War doesn't count as a Psychic Shooting Attack (imo) - it is used instead of firing a wepon (not the same as actually firing one) and therefore doesn't need to hit. EH has its own statline therefore it follows all the rules for shooting.

My opinion of a Psychic shooting attack is a psychic power with a range, strenght, AP value...these are represented like assult wepons (page 50). A psychic power used in the shooting phase that doesn't have the pervious stated things to me is just a psychic power.

I think that the key here as per the scatter issue [and yes i bow out of my former argument] is to look at other PSA, one that are blasts and Assatults.
Let us look at the space Marein Libarian. He has a few powers that are shooting attacks.
1) Smite, this is not a blast attack but rather Assault 4 are you to say that is will auto hit all four time? fine dont know where you could get that though.
2) Machine Curse in it's descriptor it says "If it hits..." p57 for people that want to check this. Now, why would a psa need to say IF is you claim psa would hit automatically.
3) Avenger, Template, not much argument potential there, ill skip it.
4) Vortex of Doom, this IS a blast and as such the most like ES. So In its description if states that if you fail the roll then the marker is centered over the lib and IT WILL NOT SCATTER, If it would not scatter normaly as per any other blast weapon then why would it feel the need to say it would not scatter then.

Things we can not argue, ES is a psa, and it uses the bast template. Just because the codex for Eldar is from 4th E does not meant that you pick some of the 5E rules to use and not others, in 5E blast weapons scatter 2d6-BS. This would hold true for ANY from of blast unless the codex says otherwise. The Edlar codex leaves on mute scatter, as such we must accept the scatter of blasts rule from 5th E.

To sum up Alerians argument; "It does not scatter, because I do not want to to".

Either the wording of Eldritch Storm represent the ENTIRE set of rules used by the Eldritch Storm (and thus it cannot wound) or Eldritch Storm follows the normal rules for shooting with the exceptions mentioned specifically in the wording (and thus it scatters).

John Spencer has given us an indication about how a FAQ will be worded on the subject when, and if, GW gets around to doing it. It has no impact on the rules as they currently stand.

Casper wrote:Alerian, your post make me laugh...Yak gave you the page number, quote and the rule with no changes. Yak has it right...you cant have the best of 4th and 5th edition...

Besides Mind War doesn't count as a Psychic Shooting Attack (imo) - it is used instead of firing a wepon (not the same as actually firing one) and therefore doesn't need to hit. EH has its own statline therefore it follows all the rules for shooting.

My opinion of a Psychic shooting attack is a psychic power with a range, strenght, AP value...these are represented like assult wepons (page 50). A psychic power used in the shooting phase that doesn't have the pervious stated things to me is just a psychic power.

Actually, Mind War is defined as a psychic shooting attack along with Eldritch Storm and Destructor.

Whether or not Mind War needs to roll 'to hit' is a question that isn't unreasonable to ask given the rules written the way they are. I do think there is sufficient specificity in the Mind War rules that a 'to hit' rule isn't required, but frankly that's a whole other issue that should be discussed separately.

Steelmage99 wrote:To sum up Alerians argument; "It does not scatter, because I do not want to to".

Either the wording of Eldritch Storm represent the ENTIRE set of rules used by the Eldritch Storm (and thus it cannot wound) or Eldritch Storm follows the normal rules for shooting with the exceptions mentioned specifically in the wording (and thus it scatters).

John Spencer has given us an indication about how a FAQ will be worded on the subject when, and if, GW gets around to doing it. It has no impact on the rules as they currently stand.

I agree. John Spencer has made it perfectly clear that his answers are not official in that they do not come from the people writing the rules and FAQs. We have absolutely no indication that if and when GW ever FAQs an issue they will do according to how John Spencer has ruled.

After calling and emailing a few GW stores, they are said that you follows the rules for shooting and therefor still scatter, sucks i know, RAI i think was meant no scatter, damn

Squig_herder wrote:After calling and emailing a few GW stores, they are said that you follows the rules for shooting and therefor still scatter, sucks i know, RAI i think was meant no scatter, damn

Please, its bad enough that this John Spencer is getting reverenced as hoyle. Redshirts are an auto-fail for rules questions.

Okay, after seeing all the arguments here so far I'm convinced that the RAW reading is that Eldritch Storm scatters.

The real clincher for me is that the ES description doesn't say anything about how to apply wounds, so it's obviously falling back on BGB rules for things not specified in its description. You can't cherry pick and apply the "templates cause wounds" rule while also arguing that the "templates scatter" rule is not in effect.

Also I seem to recall being on the other side of this argument in this forum like five or six years ago with third edition mind war...

I don't understand why this is suddenly a question. Nothing previously made Eldritch Storm roll to hit in 4th edition, and the only change on blast weapons was that the roll to hit was replaced by a scatter roll. What suddenly makes people think there is a change that makes a scatter roll necessary?

Also, why do all these arguments seem to come down to making Eldar powers/vehicles/whatever less useful than before? It gets tiring. I'd almost think people have an agenda.

Kyrolon wrote:Also, why do all these arguments seem to come down to making Eldar powers/vehicles/whatever less useful than before? It gets tiring. I'd almost think people have an agenda.

Careful there - I play Eldar, and I'm convinced that Eldritch Storm currently scatters.

What changed is that we now have some blanket rules: all "blast" weapons now follow the same rules (involving the scatter die), and all psychic shooting attacks follow the rules for regular shooting, barring specific exceptions. Eldritch Storm has a weapon profile, is a psychic shooting attack, and has the "blast" special rule.

Claims of "that's different from how it used to be" aren't especially useful - the entire underlying game changed. Unsurprisingly, a LOT of stuff in the old codexii was affected by the switch from 4th to 5th edition.

Kyrolon wrote:I don't understand why this is suddenly a question. Nothing previously made Eldritch Storm roll to hit in 4th edition, and the only change on blast weapons was that the roll to hit was replaced by a scatter roll. What suddenly makes people think there is a change that makes a scatter roll necessary?

Also, why do all these arguments seem to come down to making Eldar powers/vehicles/whatever less useful than before? It gets tiring. I'd almost think people have an agenda.

Eldar Players can get in line behind Daemonhunter players for that whine/rant.

I think that Eldritch Storm is not supposed to scatter, however, since its argueable as in I can see both sides nearly equally I scatter it when I play that power.

.. keep going.

...and going.

and going gah!

I didn't even think to scatter Eldritch Storm when I faced Eldar recently, but after reading this thread, I would agree with Yak's opinion:

No problem. Page 50, under "Psychic Shooting Attacks":

"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack."


Right there in black and white, using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon, and as with all ranged weapons in the game you follow the rules for shooting when doing so. They give some examples of what that means in the rulebook, but they are just examples. A psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon and therefore follows all the rules for doing so except where specified otherwise in the psychic power's rules.

It follows all standard rules for firing a ranged weapon, unless otherwise stated.
Anything with the "Blast" Special Rule has to roll for scatter.

(Yes, I am part of the Anti-Eldar conspiracy)

Kyrolon wrote:I don't understand why this is suddenly a question. Nothing previously made Eldritch Storm roll to hit in 4th edition, and the only change on blast weapons was that the roll to hit was replaced by a scatter roll. What suddenly makes people think there is a change that makes a scatter roll necessary?

Also, why do all these arguments seem to come down to making Eldar powers/vehicles/whatever less useful than before? It gets tiring. I'd almost think people have an agenda.

Also, the Eldar FAQ was released that fully clarified that Eldritch storm is indeed a 'psychic shooting attack' which means it definitely follows the rules for shooting except where noted otherwise.


Edit: Come to think of it, there is another big reason for this change with 5th edition. In 4th edition for blast weapons you rolled 'to hit' and then only if successful did you place the blast marker. That means if Eldritch Storm says to 'center the blast over an enemy model' that implies that you skipped the normal 'to hit' roll and just went ahead and placed the blast.

In 5th edition, players place the blast marker first and then roll for scatter. This inversion of the process means that you are now able to center the blast over an enemy model (which is slightly different from the normal rules for a blast in that normally you can put it anywhere over the base of the enemy model) and then roll for scatter, and by doing this you're following all the rules for Eldritch Storm and the shooting rules as you're supposed to do.

In other words, the specific rules for Eldritch storm now apply to a much more focused part of the shooting rules then they did in 4th edition.

My issue with Eldritch storm is that it tells us exactly what to do with the scatter dice, and none of it has anything to do with moving the 'storm'. In fact, the power explicitly tells us what the scatter dice is used for and it is for determining the facing of the units hit by it.

Pure RAW, yakface is right. But, I honestly believe that we (as players and tournament judges alike [I'm not a judge]) should remember that we can not and should not use RAW and nothing else as a determining factor. Even the INAT FAQ in some cases went outside RAW to make a clarification.

Heck, even GW has done this multiple times in their FAQs which are just GW's 'house rules'.

We all *know* the intent of this power (as 4th ed players), and can even rationalize that the power remains the same because it uses scatter but only to determine the facing direction of the target.

Hopefully commonsense in some of the cases like this one will win over the 'over lawyering of RAW'. No offense intended yakface and others, just a trend I am seeing in gaming groups both here and in many many boards.

just a disclaimer: I believe in RAW for solving issues, but where RAW fails or otherwise doesn't make sense, I throw a dash of commonsense into the mixture and hopefully come to a logical conclusion that is good for both parties.

But while I know its a unique power.. the changes to the blast rules are a blanket change to everything.

RAW is because it balances out everything.. it needs to say it doesnt scatter specifically in regards to the dyanmics of 5ed because normally it uses rules in 5ed.

padixon wrote:My issue with Eldritch storm is that it tells us exactly what to do with the scatter dice, and none of it has anything to do with moving the 'storm'. In fact, the power explicitly tells us what the scatter dice is used for and it is for determining the facing of the units hit by it.

Pure RAW, yakface is right. But, I honestly believe that we (as players and tournament judges alike [I'm not a judge]) should remember that we can not and should not use RAW and nothing else as a determining factor. Even the INAT FAQ in some cases went outside RAW to make a clarification.

Heck, even GW has done this multiple times in their FAQs which are just GW's 'house rules'.

We all *know* the intent of this power (as 4th ed players), and can even rationalize that the power remains the same because it uses scatter but only to determine the facing direction of the target.

Hopefully commonsense in some of the cases like this one will win over the 'over lawyering of RAW'. No offense intended yakface and others, just a trend I am seeing in gaming groups both here and in many many boards.

just a disclaimer: I believe in RAW for solving issues, but where RAW fails or otherwise doesn't make sense, I throw a dash of commonsense into the mixture and hopefully come to a logical conclusion that is good for both parties.

But the RAW doesn't fail here. It's not that it doesn't make sense; it's that you don't like that the effect has changed across editions.

Myself, I don't like that outnumbering is no longer weighed in determining close combat outcomes. That's a significant change, and invalidates some of the interesting wargear available to Tyranids. But the rules are clear.

Janthkin wrote:
But the RAW doesn't fail here. It's not that it doesn't make sense; it's that you don't like that the effect has changed across editions.

Myself, I don't like that outnumbering is no longer weighed in determining close combat outcomes. That's a significant change, and invalidates some of the interesting wargear available to Tyranids. But the rules are clear.

I don't care what the effects are as I am not an Eldar player nor do I even own a single Eldar unit.

And the rules are 'not' very clear, hence the split nearly right down the middle on how this power works. Heck, if it was 'clear' then even Mr. Spencer would of said, "of course it scatters, duh". But he didn't and even put his vote in that it doesn't scatter.

If this is 'clear' than it is as 'clear as mud' for sure. So, unless you are insinuating that myself, the many noble posters on this board, and Mr. Spencer can not discern what really makes a rule 'clear' than please understand what I previously posted as a valid point and that when rules (such as this one) are not 'clear' than we *have to* throw in a dash of common sense.

What is "common sense?" Because I disagree with you, do I lack it? Is there some impartial, objective source for common sense, such that it is consistent across state and national borders?

Try this as an exercise. Forget 4th edition entirely, as best you can. Read pg. 30 on how Blast Weapons work, as if this was a game you've never played before. Then read pg 50, under Psychic Shooting Attacks. Then, and only then, look at the wording for Eldritch Storm.

Eldrich Storm [pg.28]
this psychic power is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. the eldar player places the lager blast marker centered on an enemy model within 18". vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 armor penetration and are spun around to face in a random direction determined by the scatter dice - if a hit is rolled the eldar player may choose its facing

I did, and the way this is worded, I will still say it doesn't scatter.

Plus, I do not own the eldar codex, does the eldar codex list this power as a "TYPE" Assault, Heavy, whatever Blast in its profile? This is important as only 'blast' weapons are affected by the 'blast' rules as per page 30 second paragraph first sentence. I do not know if even this power can even be referred to as a 'blast weapon' either.

Next, the power follows all the hallmarks of a blast weapon per page 30 except that the power says to place the blast marker than it says if a vehicle touches the template than roll scatter to determine its facing. There is no insinuation of any scatter what so ever.

Again, this *is* common sense that I am showing you mixed in with rules which is how I believe all the rules for 40k is intended to be read. We can all agree this rule set is faaar from air tight and any discussions on RAW can be faulted from the beginning when working with flawed documents to begin with.

padixon wrote:Eldrich Storm [pg.28]
this psychic power is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. the eldar player places the lager blast marker centered on an enemy model within 18". vehicles touched by the template suffer a hit with 2D6+3 armor penetration and are spun around to face in a random direction determined by the scatter dice - if a hit is rolled the eldar player may choose its facing

I did, and the way this is worded, I will still say it doesn't scatter.

Plus, I do not own the eldar codex, does the eldar codex list this power as a "TYPE" Assault, Heavy, whatever Blast in its profile? This is important as only 'blast' weapons are affected by the 'blast' rules as per page 30 second paragraph first sentence. I do not know if even this power can even be referred to as a 'blast weapon' either.

Next, the power follows all the hallmarks of a blast weapon per page 30 except that the power says to place the blast marker than it says if a vehicle touches the template than roll scatter to determine its facing. There is no insinuation of any scatter what so ever.

Again, this *is* common sense that I am showing you mixed in with rules which is how I believe all the rules for 40k is intended to be read. We can all agree this rule set is faaar from air tight and any discussions on RAW can be faulted from the beginning when working with flawed documents to begin with.

Wait, you're arguing a "common sense" interpretation, without knowing what the rules actually say?
. . .
Eldritch storm has a typical weapon profile: Range, Strength, AP, Type (Pinning, Large Blast)

Pg. 50 wrote:Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (as assault weapon, unless specified otherwise).

Pg. 30 wrote:When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker with its hole over the base of the target model, or its hull if it is a vehicle.... Next, check if the shot has landed on target.

Eldritch Storm wrote:The Eldar player places the large blast marker centered on an enemy model within 18".

Both blast weapons and Eldritch storm are described as "placing the blast marker." Psychic shooting attacks operate using the shooting rules, except as specifically exempted. Nothing in Eldritch Storm specifically exempts it from following the shooting rules for blast weapons; in fact, the initial step is nearly identical, in spite of the different editions.

Regardless of the "tightness" of the ruleset as a whole, I don't see how a result can be common sense, if it begins with the premise of "my interpretation of how the rules are intended to be read." We CANNOT know how the rules are intended to be read. In this case, I'm not convinced we have to.

Eldritch Storm describes exactly how it works.

It does not scatter. If it explicitly stated that models partially covered were hit on a 4+ (it does not) that would still apply.

Were it like any other psychic shooting attack such as Vortex of Doom it would simply be a ranged attack of X inches using Y blast, no explanation of how to use it would be necessary.

Edit: Eldritch Storm, not Mind War.

Mr.Peanut wrote:Eldritch Storm describes exactly how it works.

It does not scatter. If it explicitly stated that models partially covered were hit on a 4+ (it does not) that would still apply.

Were it like any other psychic shooting attack such as Vortex of Doom it would simply be a ranged attack of X inches using Y blast, no explanation of how to use it would be necessary.

(Fixed your typo.)

If Eldritch Storm was a complete entry, it would explain a) how to determine which (non-vehicle) models were hit; b) how they were wounded; and c) how casualty removal works. It doesn't; those items are omitted, because the rules provide for how psychic shooting attacks are handled. The rule is NOT self-contained, and obviously doesn't describe "exactly how it works". It doesn't even provide the minimum basis for ignoring scatter - it doesn't tell us how to determine which models are hit!

Instead, it taps into the main rules. In 5th edition, we have to look at the rules for psychic shooting attacks, while tell us to treat it as a shooting attack, except where specified otherwise; this is how we get "to wound" rolls, saves, and casualty removal. It is a blast weapon (see pg. 30), which gives us how to determine which models are hit. Part of that determination, in 5th edition, involves scattering the blast template.

Yep you got everything right except for the fact that after you place the blast marker, the psychic power than tells you what to do with anything hit by it. To me, this *is* telling me that what it touches it hits and no need to roll scatter, and then later tells you to roll the scatter to determine its facing direction (if it was a vehicle).

I can't fault your logic Janthkin, but it is not that clear. If you follow the psychic power as written than the power does not scatter. Yet if you follow the rules on blast markers than a reader would feel he needs to roll for scatter. Can you not see the conflict? Obviously myself, others, and Mr. Spencer do.

Look, all I am saying is this isn't as clear as it should be, RAW *can* be read to be interpreted that Codex > rulebook and shouldn't scatter because the power tells you exactly what to do, and You can *prove* that RAW can be read that you must follow the all blast rules because the power doesn't say "don't roll for scatter. And why would it? We fortunately have hindsight on why it doesn't say that, because it was never meant to scatter in the first place.

And I have to disagree with you on intention. PURE RAW is often times very very wrong. Do you remember "rapid firing weapons" discussion years ago that even warranted a FAQ from GW? Pure RAW said if you even owned a Rapid fire weapon and fired a pistol, you could not assault. Common sense said you did because it is pretty easy to see the intention of Rapid fire weapons. You see that you can read rules with a dash of common sense and because of that come to an intended result.

Granted this is not something we do on every rule, I submit that this is something we do on rules where RAW fails us and the rule is not as clear as it should be.

And there is nothing wrong with doing this at your local gaming store either, and I can't see why you disagree with it so harshly. At official and tournament events, you read the FAQ (if there is one) ask the TO or judges on rules queries and play the game. These situations I bring up are for common games between respectful gamers. There is nothing wrong with using your 'local' common sense in these situations.

I truly applaud Janthkin and your logical conclusions make great sense! But, you must ask yourself sometimes, at what point should I take a step back and wonder if a RAW reading of a rule is truly the right one. Again, I lean toward it not scattering, and this is my interpretation, and you have yours, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing.

Yes, you do everything by the rulebook until the Codex says otherwise. That's why the Shokk Attack Gun describes how it works differently as a shooting attack, rather than explicitly stating every one of its functions including those that are unmodified from the rulebook.

padixon wrote:Yep you got everything right except for the fact that after you place the blast marker, the psychic power than tells you what to do with anything hit by it. To me, this *is* telling me that what it touches it hits and no need to roll scatter, and then later tells you to roll the scatter to determine its facing direction (if it was a vehicle).

I truly applaud Janthkin and your logical conclusions make great sense! But, you must ask yourself sometimes, at what point should I take a step back and wonder if a RAW reading of a rule is truly the right one. Again, I lean toward it not scattering, and this is my interpretation, and you have yours, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing.

I agree wiht Janthkin on this, you place the blast marker (as 5th insturcts) then you scatter said blast marker. Its as simple as that you can't mix 4th and 5th rules very effectivly - their like oil and water in many circumstances.

I guess Padixon - you and I will agree to disagree as well?

I feel the major problem most have with this power is the hold over from 4th ed.
In that rules set ES was quite different from shooting and other powers.
As an test I have had players that started the game in 5th ed look at the rule, all of them (ok , both of them)
said "oh ok just another blast weapon"

padixon wrote:Yep you got everything right except for the fact that after you place the blast marker, the psychic power than tells you what to do with anything hit by it. To me, this *is* telling me that what it touches it hits and no need to roll scatter, and then later tells you to roll the scatter to determine its facing direction (if it was a vehicle).

The problem, as I noted above, is that ES doesn't tell you how to hit anything besides vehicles - the rule goes directly from "place the blast marker." to "Vehicles touched by the template...." If the power is to have any use at all, it must interact with the core rules. The core rules it is interacting with have changed significantly.

I can't fault your logic Janthkin, but it is not that clear. If you follow the psychic power as written than the power does not scatter. Yet if you follow the rules on blast markers than a reader would feel he needs to roll for scatter. Can you not see the conflict? Obviously myself, others, and Mr. Spencer do.

I am convinced that the perceived lack of clarity is the result of applying hindsight. You know how it *used* to be, which prompts the question of whether it really was meant to change. If we could find an impartial observer (who wouldn't look at us strangely before easing away), and offered ONLY the ES rules, the PSA rules, and the Blast weapon rules, I am certain it would be a short conversation. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's going to have to deal with being covered in feathers.

Look, all I am saying is this isn't as clear as it should be, RAW *can* be read to be interpreted that Codex > rulebook and shouldn't scatter because the power tells you exactly what to do, and You can *prove* that RAW can be read that you must follow the all blast rules because the power doesn't say "don't roll for scatter. And why would it? We fortunately have hindsight on why it doesn't say that, because it was never meant to scatter in the first place.

Look, hindsight! Discard your hindsight; it's unnecessary baggage. (Aside: one of the better tourney players at my local store only realized last week, after I pointed it out, that a single scoring unit can hold as many objectives as it is in range of. Never even occurred to him, as 4e and 3e tournament rules banned such things.)

And I have to disagree with you on intention. PURE RAW is often times very very wrong. Do you remember "rapid firing weapons" discussion years ago that even warranted a FAQ from GW? Pure RAW said if you even owned a Rapid fire weapon and fired a pistol, you could not assault. Common sense said you did because it is pretty easy to see the intention of Rapid fire weapons. You see that you can read rules with a dash of common sense and because of that come to an intended result.

Granted this is not something we do on every rule, I submit that this is something we do on rules where RAW fails us and the rule is not as clear as it should be.

Here's where we have something of a philosophical difference. I'm a patent lawyer; by training and inclination, I treat the written word as complete in itself (because I have to). It is impossible to be certain of the "intent" of whoever wrote the words, unless they actually provide a statement of intent. Allowances can be made in cases which would produce an objectively absurd result (e.g., the "reduce by -1" language GW insists on including for various vehicle upgrades), as the intent is pretty clear there. But we have to be careful even then - remember the shock when we learned towards the end of 3e that GW didn't intend And They Shall Know No Fear to override the "enemy within 6 inches" rule for regrouping?

When dealing with complex rulesets, there are a couple standard conventions. First, "break no rule." If one interpretation allows you to follow all of the applicable rules, and another calls for ignoring some of them, the rules-compliant interpretation is likely to be easier to defend. Here, we have the interaction of two rules: Eldritch Storm and Blast Weapons. One interpretation applies both rules, without breaking any portion of them. Another interpretation breaks (or at least discards) a portion of the blast weapon rules, without a clear statement of allowance.

Second, as in statutory interpretation, the author is presumed to mean what he says, and to have said what he means. You don't get to questions of intent, unless the words are insufficiently clear on their face to apply them.

And there is nothing wrong with doing this at your local gaming store either, and I can't see why you disagree with it so harshly. At official and tournament events, you read the FAQ (if there is one) ask the TO or judges on rules queries and play the game. These situations I bring up are for common games between respectful gamers. There is nothing wrong with using your 'local' common sense in these situations.

By all means - the local norms of playing are far more important than what the words actually mean, at least if you want to play friendly games. But much of the value of Games Workshop's products, over the much-less-ambiguous rulesets available from competitors or in the historical wargame market, is that they are *portable.* People all over the world are playing the "same" game. Most of my gaming in recent years has been at annual national events like Adepticon; when many people from different "local" scenes come together, it is reasonably important that they are playing the same game; Warhammer 40,000, rather than 40k (California edition) vs 40k (Deutschland edition).

I truly applaud Janthkin and your logical conclusions make great sense! But, you must ask yourself sometimes, at what point should I take a step back and wonder if a RAW reading of a rule is truly the right one. Again, I lean toward it not scattering, and this is my interpretation, and you have yours, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing.

I think I answered that above - I don't get to that question until and unless applying the words results in an objectively absurd result. (This isn't to be equated with a "useless" result; we should all be used to GW including some useless stuff in every rulebook by now.)

Thanks for the civil discussion, though.

Kyrolon wrote:I don't understand why this is suddenly a question. Nothing previously made Eldritch Storm roll to hit in 4th edition, and the only change on blast weapons was that the roll to hit was replaced by a scatter roll. What suddenly makes people think there is a change that makes a scatter roll necessary?

Exactly. There never was a to hit roll, you just placed it, which is the reason for how it was worded. You still just place it. So there is no scatter in my opinion.

I've never played 4th ed. and started playing when 5th ed. was released.

I've always used eldritch storm to scatter. However,after reading all these post I'm not so sure.

This is a noob observation I would like to bring up. There seems to be a split in logic when trying to determine the rules. Some are word lawyers,RAW, and some are basing their logic after,RAI,the way GW comes up with these rules,fluff,real life like sequences etc.

On top of that there are special rules that are unique to a codex. The first army I purchased was Eldar. Now ,after reading various threads I am coming to realize that if mindwar and eldritch storm, among other rules,don't work in a unique way then the Eldar have nearly no rules unique to themselves.

I play against Orks,Necrons,Tyranids,and Space Marines often and I'm constantly having to sumit to their unique rules,with having little in the way of a unique response.

I hope this isn't viewed as whining,but rather a way to look at these Eldar rule disputes in a different light.

As it is the Eldar are seemingly out powered,remember I'm a noob,so I think RAI is the way eldritch storm should be used. So no scatter is my vote.

Blackarandras wrote:On top of that there are special rules that are unique to a codex. The first army I purchased was Eldar. Now ,after reading various threads I am coming to realize that if mindwar and eldritch storm, among other rules,don't work in a unique way then the Eldar have nearly no rules unique to themselves.

Wraithweapons, wraithsight, holofields, prism cannons, star engines, vectored engines, Eldar Missile Launchers, shurican catapults, Dire Avenger shuircan catapults, Autarchs, Fortune, Doom, Guide, Mind War, Mandiblasters, Harlequins, Shining Spear lances, Bright Lances, Guardian Heavy Weapons platforms, Swooping Hawks grenade packs, Phoenix Lords, Witchblades/Singing Spears, and the vast collection of Exarch powers are insufficiently unique for your tastes?

If you're a new player, odds are that every new opposing army you face will seem complicated. However, most of your opponents have likely faced Eldar, and so already learned most of the special rules involved. But don't take that to mean that Eldar are generic - they have more special rules than IG, SM, or CSM, as well as more unit choices. They are also quite competitive, but unforgiving.

I've never played 4th ed. and started playing when 5th ed. was released.

I've always used eldritch storm to scatter.

THIS is what I was getting at above. If you remove the emotional baggage of past editions, a simple reading of the rules as they currently stand doesn't lead to pages of debate.

Well I'm a rhetorician by training and inclination, and for me there's not much question about what the RAW says. Even though I don't like it as an Eldar player, I can't reasonably dispute the way the rule changes and interactions lead to the conclusion that ES scatters.

Questions of how it actually plays out on the tabletop or how different players decide to work it are separate from RAW questions, though. But I don't think there's much viable dispute about how the rules produce this result in this case.

Very few of the things you listed are unique.

I'm not talking about things only the Eldar have,but about things that are resolved differently than other armies. Not little differences either.

Blackarandras wrote:Very few of the things you listed are unique.

I'm not talking about things only the Eldar have,but about things that are resolved differently than other armies. Not little differences either.

Janthkin wrote:Wraithweapons, wraithsight, holofields, prism cannons, star engines, vectored engines, Eldar Missile Launchers, shurican catapults, Dire Avenger shuircan catapults, Autarchs, Fortune, Doom, Guide, Mind War, Mandiblasters, Harlequins, Shining Spear lances, Bright Lances, Guardian Heavy Weapons platforms, Swooping Hawks grenade packs, Phoenix Lords, Witchblades/Singing Spears, and the vast collection of Exarch powers are insufficiently unique for your tastes?

The only entry common to any other race in my list is the Lance-type weapon (Dark Lances and Bright Lances are identical, rules-wise). Some of the Exarch powers give Universal Special Rules, but no other army can pick-and-choose when to purchase these in a similar manner. And I'm realizing I left off quite a few others (Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Ghost Helms, all the Warlock psychic powers...). Nearly every entry in the Eldar codex includes several special rules, most with a lot of interesting potential.

The whole GAME is made up of "little differences." Nearly all of the above can have significant game-altering potential, and the combination of them offers some of the best cross-unit synergy in the game (see, e.g., what a jetbike-mounted (there's another one: Eldar Jetbikes!) Warlock Council with Witchblades can do to anything on the charge, or what Bladestorming Dire Avengers can to when Guided at a Doomed target).

Did you have some specific opposing army in mind? Eldar are not an auto-win army, and not especially point-and-shoot to use, even under the best possible configurations, but they are still very competitive.

Because ES is referred to in the FAQ as a psychic shooting attack it has to follow the rules for scatter :(

One slighlty confusing factor is that the Eldar Dex entry for destructor specifically states that 'It is worked out like a normal shooting attack with the following profile'.

Quite why GW didn't put this caveat into ES i have no idea. Maybe because they wanted to avoid giving ES a LOS rule? It leaves us with alot of things to assume about the power, including damage to infantry which i guess is true because of its pinning abilities.

NB: I have not played since 2ED and only have the 5ED set to go on!

Janthkin,to clarify what I mean by unique is,any rule that an army has that is a "rule breaker" as far as the BRB goes.

Like,Space Marines and falling back.

Eldar mindwar is unique,but is getting a lot of flak and is being dumbed down by some,making it less unique.

Star engines are unique

Drop pods deep strike no mishap is unique

Mob rule,well maybe

This is more along the lines as I meant.

I have no problem with ES scattering at all,but it not scattering would be testament to the superiority of Eldar psychic abilities

J.Black wrote:Because ES is referred to in the FAQ as a psychic shooting attack it has to follow the rules for scatter :(

I dont believe so. It is regarded as a psychic shooting attack to determine how it works: it needs LOS and range. The power then goes on to state that you place the template and count hits.

GMMStudios wrote:

I dont believe so. It is regarded as a psychic shooting attack to determine how it works: it needs LOS and range. The power then goes on to state that you place the template and count hits.

I'm repeating myself over and over again, but I'll try again:


First, it does not require line of sight as all Eldar powers do not require LOS except where noted (such as Mind War).

Second, Eldritch Storm does NOT state how you "count hits" except for with vehicles and I don't know why several people keep saying this. Please go back and look at the rules and you will see that beyond the special affects that vehicles suffer Eldritch Storm says nothing about how it hits non-vehicle models.

It is a blast weapon that has a profile and follows the rules for shooting with the following three exceptions:

1) It does not require LOS (because the Eldar powers rules say so).
2) The blast must be centered on an enemy model (as opposed to palced anywhere over their hull/base).
3) It spins vehicles around.


That's it. That's all the exceptions listed in the power. The power is a psychic shooting attack and it has to follow the rules for shooting for it to function besides hitting vehicles. And despite what you say there are *NO* complete rules for how it affects non-vehicle models beyond the standard rules for shooting which include rolling for scatter.

Alerian wrote:Wrong.

You still have yet to show anywhere on pg 50 where psychic shooting attacks have to roll to hit, or that they have to roll for scatter. Instead, it refers us to the individual codex for the "complete rules". Show me anywhere in the complete rules for Eldrich Storm that it must either roll to hit or for scatter. It isn't there. There is NO default rule that says that psychic shooting attacks must roll to hit, or that they have to roll for scatter. Show me that on pg 50 where it lists the rest of the psychic shooting rules, or please concede.

Until then, you are just making up rules.

You also have to show me on pg 50 (or anywhere else in any codex or brb) where it states that you don't have to roll to hit, or scatter for any eldar psychic power.

And while we are at it, please show me in the sm codex where it states that if I auto rally using ATSKNF that I don't automatically win the game.

Now just who is making up what rule?

It's a permissinve ruleset. Unless it says you can do it, you can't. Except of course when a specific rule overrides a general rule, then you are back to square one.

This has probably been addressed already, and maybe I didn't pick up on it.

Anyway, doesn't the BRB say something to the effect that "instead of rolling to hit...[blast weapons scatter]" The argument I've heard against ES scatter is that because ES never needed a to-hit roll, the BRB rule on blast weapons scattering does not apply.

The scatter effect doesn't happen because it's not substituting a to-hit roll.

deadlygopher wrote:This has probably been addressed already, and maybe I didn't pick up on it.

Anyway, doesn't the BRB say something to the effect that "instead of rolling to hit...[blast weapons scatter]" The argument I've heard against ES scatter is that because ES never needed a to-hit roll, the BRB rule on blast weapons scattering does not apply.

The scatter effect doesn't happen because it's not substituting a to-hit roll.

Indeed! I posted the relevant quote in the Shokk Attack Gun thread. Blast weapons do not roll to hit. So the whole existential crisis about deviating from the shooting procedure in the BRB is a red herring.

So I have been reading this massive back and forth and I'm rather shocked that no one pointed out an obvious paragraph.

Eldar Codex pg28 "... do not require the Eldar psyker to have line of sight to the target."

40k rulebook Errata

"Q. Can a model use a psychic power that is not a
Psychic Shooting Attack if it is embarked in a
transport vehicle?
A. Yes. If the power requires line of sight, this is
still worked out from the vehicle’s fire points
(this will count as one model shooting through
that fire point if the power is used in the
Shooting phase).
If the psychic power does not require line of sight
and has a range or an area of effect that is
normally measured from the model using it, these
are measured from the vehicle’s hull, as
explained in the Embarking section on page 66."

Based on these two paragraphs and the Codex > Rulebook I don't know how you could argue that you can't fire a ES from a Serpent or Falcon. The codex clearly states the power doesn't require LoS, and the errata to the rulebook clear states how to treat psychic shooting attacks that don't require line of sight.

As for scatter, yes ES is a psychic shooting attack, but the codex tells you how to treat the attack before having to deterime the "hit" piece.

Refer to the millions of posts of the exact wording, but it clearly states that you place the template and vehicles touched take the 2D6+3 and face the scatter direction... but then it uses the word if a "hit is made" implying that you move the template in the direction of the scatter, as per psy shooting attack" and if the vehicle is still under it then you face which way you prefer.

Work as follows in this example...

Serpent with Farseer uses ES
Take Psyker test
Place template and roll 2D6+3 pen for vehicles it touches
Roll scatter die and 2D6
No LOS = full 2D6 scatter (minus BS if not firing from serpent and you have LOS)
If vehicle hit face the direction you wish if not then face in the scatter direction
Resolve unit hits under the scattered blast template location S3 AP-

Counter agruements are welcome

BACK FOUL NECROMANTIC BEAST FROM WHENCE YOU CAME!

Yes this thread has passed its "best used by" date for some time.