So what do you want to see in the next Codex for the bugs?

A few things needed IMO:

Armor saves. It would be nice to make them on something other than Tyrants and Fexes in a game.

Ranged Tank Killing Ability: Take away the stupid Venom Cannons can only Glance rule.

More ability to overcome opponents armor, notably that of Marines, especially in CC.

Freedom from Synapse: This is more based off of the fluff. In stories and such there are simply hordes of Gaunts with no synapse creatures in sight. There should be a Gaunt rule or something that allows you to not need Synapse if the point total of the game is less than 1000.

my wish list for nids:
1. Synapse becomes line of sight not 12" or maybe just increase range to 18-24" maybe.

2. remove the kill points rule on spore mines, thats just stupid

3. taking two of the same weapons eg. venom cannon. doesnt have to be twin linked.

4. increase the toughness of raveners or the save, maybe T4(5) or Sv4+/5++

5. much cheaper base cost of hormagaunts to 6 with no bio-morphs

6. another type of spore mine, maybe

7. cheaper biovores and increase in Ld to maybe 8-9?

I would just like to see more Tyranid players in general. Make that a rule;

Lord of the Hive Mind : More Tyranid players.

I would take a Tyranid army myself, but I already have Guard and SM. My next interest in armies is Ork. I don't need THREE high model count armies! Guard is bad enough, them and Orks is insane! Orks, Guard, AND Tyranids?! I only have two hands!!!

Personally, I'd remove the Without Number upgrade. It's simply unnecessary. I could leave a unit of Burna Boyz at the Tyranid player's table edge and farm kill points. Also makes Tyranids all but immune to the Wipe Out! rule. Imo, you need to able to wipe out the enemy. There is no point in playing if you can't.

Just my two cents.....
Ive always felt that Nids have been better off for being able to produce some broken sick armies (2nd Ed for example, Need I say more for Fracks sake!)

Nidzilla today is still a pain in the rear to deal with. Yes it isnt unbeatable, but its sure is one giant speedbump to overcome. I feel that other then a casual update to smooth over a few 5th Ed inconsistencies they dont really need a serious overhaul/update.

Granted im no nid player, but a very good friend of mine is and he does not want the current codex to change at all because he wins a good 2/3rds of his games in 5th.

Personally, I hate over running my opponent. Rarely happens, as I mentioned before, I play Guard, but when it does, I a) don't enjoy not having a challenge and b) feel a little bad for the other player, who must be a bit frustrated. So maybe the Tyranids do need their cheese army lists castrated a bit.

I totally disagree, i went up against a sisters of battle army the other day, i took without number rule of 4 of my troops and i couldnt touch them, too many flamers and heavy bolters.

and personally when i take my eldar i love someone trying to swarm me with troops it's really fun. but thats just IMHO ^^

The big one for me is more dependable armor killing from a distance. Not a rule, but sale Hormagaunts and Gaunts in their own boxes. If I need Gaunts I have to spend twice as much.

Sort out the hormagaunts 'beast' rule. They can't move into multiple story building ruins due to this. Very annoying if someone wants to get anal about the rules. I play house rule that they can though.

I too would like to see some kind of long range tank busting, and a price drop on gaunts. Synapse adjustment would be good for smaller games, too.

Im fine with synapse. I would like raveners to be able to enter combat the turn they deepstrike. That would justify their pts cost. I knwo they move fast but like it says in the fluff "they are vulnerable to heavy weapons fire". Whats the point in deepstriking when all you can do is ...nothing.

Gargoyles could do with a small buff. No one fields them
1. they are too expensive pts wise (they are really just very fast gaunts)
2. they are still metal miniatures.

GW, give us a reason to buy them.

For the mainstay of a nid army, warriors armour save is pretty pathetic. Bump it up by 1 for a 4 pt cost increase(could just be me though).

And this could also just be me, but why oh why cant stealers be given feeder tendrils AND flesh hooks...come on!!

Tankbusting on the VC seems reasonable. Its not like its overpowered... at best the S10 cannon only gets 2 shots that hit on a 4+...

Yeah...... Then why cant any other STR 10 gun in the game fire 2 shots that hit on a 4+?? That would So make Vindicator tanks worth it.

Yeah flamers are deadly, but if you time it right you can charge without them ever getting a shot off. Not trying to be mean but to me it sounds like you may have made just some bad tactical decisions in the game, not the army itself.

Gargys are junk. I agree they need a plastic upgrade and some new stats.

And Ravs should be able to assault when they DS. If not drop there Points.

Most of my problems with Nids were the models...

Gaunts and Hormagaunts need separate boxes (already mentioned).

Warriors need a better way of representing options. For extended carapce you have to buy a shed load of boxes just to get enough of those extra shoulder pads. There's also no way to represent the increased BS option without green stuff.

As for rules, my only real bugbear is "Without Number". If playing objective games, you can ignore the gaunts until the last turn and then wipe them out, so that the new unit is all but useless. If playing annihilate, then yes, you can pratically farm kill points. To solve this, I would make it possible to voluntarily wipe out a gaunt unit. The unit would then go into reserve and would have infiltrate/scout rule, so that it can come on from any table edge. This would prevent units lying in wait for the bonus kill points and represents the Tyranids surrounding their enemy.

Thoughts for the next Tyranid Codex?

Well it's pointless to talk about rules without talking about what will drive the rules - models.

They can buff Gaunts in the next Codex because everyone has 'Zilla Nid or Stealer Shock armies, so people will have more of those than they have Gaunts. This way they buff Gaunts and people have Zilla/Stealer lists have to go and buy them, and they avoid having to make a new expensive kit.

Carnifex options get changed around almost completely in order to generate sales of the kit again and force people to buy more to rework or reconvert their existing ones.

Stealers get nerfed.

Hive Tyrant has its options changed around, requiring existing ones to be broken apart or new ones be bought.

Lictors become awesome, so they can sell that model.

Zoanthropes become more numerous in the list, so people buy more.

Tyranid Warriors go through the same revision as Gaunts - they become awesome so everyone rushes out to buy them, and GW doesn't have to make a new kit.

Do people use Raveners now?

Plastic Garoyle kit and prime candidate to be the new model with completely different yet completely crap rules (every Codex has one!).

And because, like with Marines, there's little that hasn't been done two or sometimes even three times, GW will have to start inventing new units (ala Stern/Vanguard, Thunderfire, Redeemer, Storm, Ironclad) in order to generate new sales. Most of these new units, whatever they may be, will have killer rules and will be impossible to ignore, with a few duds thrown in for 'balance'.

BYE

H.B.M.C. seems about on the dot ,but you forgot to rush the codex out leaving tons of rules questions and a few spelling errors.

personally i think people see the biggest problems are bad saves and synapses. The models are pretty low cost do they need to have a great armor save. Synapses could use a bit of reworking.

deviant cadaver wrote:H.B.M.C. seems about on the dot ,but you forgot to rush the codex out leaving tons of rules questions and a few spelling errors.

Agreed and Agreed

I played nids in 3rd and 4th edition, and started up again a few weeks ago for 5th edition.

One thing I must say is the current nid codex is very balanced. It provides a very unique type of army to play that can pack a punch, without being cheesy. Most of the 5h edition rules carry over nicely to it and overall I feel that the list is barely lacking. There are 2 major issues and 2 minor I think should be dealt with.

1. Venom cannon: it was fine in 4th ed. when you could roll a 6 and destroy the vehicle but those rules are gone with 5th edition and its left a serious hole in the nids list.

2. Biovores.

The 2 minor issues is the useless upgrade options for the canifex, and the unadjusted points for the bonuses that some of the upgrades now convey. That and they NEED to make a universal biomorph sprue so people can have all the little pieces that they need to WYSIWYG.

The Grundel wrote:
The 2 minor issues is the useless upgrade options for the canifex, and the unadjusted points for the bonuses that some of the upgrades now convey. That and they NEED to make a universal biomorph sprue so people can have all the little pieces that they need to WYSIWYG.

Agreed

I think that the VC should stay as just glancing hits. How does poison destroy a vehicle?

^ How does a THOUSAND different things happen in 40k. Come on man.

(and to answer your question if I throw a VX gas waterballoon at your windshield and you crash and die. I just destroyed a vehicle with poison.

i would really like to see the release of seperate boxes for hormagaunts and termagaunts, like ork boyz, 10 in a box but for 30 or 25 AUD

Cheese Elemental wrote:I think that the VC should stay as just glancing hits. How does poison destroy a vehicle?

Simple call it something different, like Acid cannon.

the nid codex is pretty good as it is. there are power builds of course, but [almost] every army has them. make your army better and they wont seem so tough.

a few things that do need to be changed:

lictors should get better. the fluff is great and the model is cool but the rules let it down.

hormagaunts could be with a little improvement, making them 6-7pts would be a start.

the cost of giving raveners guns should decrease. paying an extra 6pts for something useful to do on the turn they DS is too much. they should not be able to charge on DS, rending attacks out of nowhere would be too good, even with the nerf to rending. i could see them being kept at the same cost, but everything within 6" has to take a pinning test or something.

nid infantry dont need a good armour save. there are lots of them, that is their defense. if you increased their save you would have to increase their points cost, which would mean you would have to have less so GW would sell less models, so that wont happen.

Cheese Elemental wrote:I think that the VC should stay as just glancing hits. How does poison destroy a vehicle?

Ok. I'll fire a crystal of corrosive poisons at you at the speed of sound. Tell me how much it hurts.

BYE

Price breaks -- mostly aimed at Gaunts and Warriors would be the main fixes, IMO. If Orks are worth 6 pts, you could make the case for Gaunts at 4. A 5+ save (either base or as an option) might help at combat res time. However it happens, they need to become better tarpits again.

Lictors need a complete rethink. Carnifexes need biomorph fixes. Biovores just need a tweak.

Ravenors getting scouts/infiltrate (and thusly outflank) would sort out a lot of their problems whilest maintaining their theme.

As to anti-tank shooting, I think it would be nice if the warriors reclaimed their shooting role some and got access to a valid anti-tank gun (something in line with a krak missile is what I am thinking) good enough for taking down most vehicles but still leaving CC as the preferred vehilce munching method for Carnifexi and the like.

Jack

Give lictors 5 attacks base (4+1 for ScyTals), along with Poisoned (2+/4+) Rending Power Weapons. Make them immune to Dangerous Terrain tests when they arrive from reserve (as that's idiotic). Lose the Feeder Tendrils rules. Give them a 4+(I) or 5+(I) save.

WS6 BS0 S5 T5 W3 I5 A4+1 (or 3+1) Ld10 Sv4+/4+(I) 80-90 points each.

BYE

gorgon wrote: Biovores just need a tweak.

Give them a large blast option Mine.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Give lictors 5 attacks base (4+1 for ScyTals), along with Poisoned (2+/4+) Rending Power Weapons. Make them immune to Dangerous Terrain tests when they arrive from reserve (as that's idiotic). Lose the Feeder Tendrils rules. Give them a 4+(I) or 5+(I) save.

WS6 BS0 S5 T5 W3 I5 A4+1 (or 3+1) Ld10 Sv4+/4+(I) 80-90 points each.

BYE

Agreed

I'd like to see a return to some of the stuff that made me fall in love with Tyranids in the 2nd edition, like calling Termagants 'Termagants' again now that Hormugaunts have their own unit entry again.

I'd like to see Bio-Plasma go back to being a ranged weapon.

I'd like to see Adrenal Glands allow a model to run and then shoot. Maybe have it give Tyranids a 12" assault range or something, to remove the 5th edition weirdness about running and shooting.

I'd like to see the Venom Cannon be a barrage weapon again, like the Thunderfire Cannon. It's a biological railgun!

Plastic Gargoyles would be peachy. So would a Ripper Swarm like the resin Forgeworld one.

Tyranid Warriors need to go down in points and down in $$$. Ditto with Ravenors. Give Warriors a specific Winged variant, like Gargoyles are a variant of the Termagant.

Fast Attack Spore Mines should be dealt with like Spawn, not using up a FOC slot, except without counting against a Tyranid player if they're destroyed.

Remove the Elite Carnifex slots, and allow players to take broods of Carnifecies, and allow multiple units of Zoanthropes, and Biovores. Allow the big version of Spore Mines as a Heavy Support Choice.

Synapse-wise, what with No Retreat! and whatnot, let lesser creatures like Termagants use a Synapse Creature's Ld rather than being Fearless in all but name, and always able to try to regroup if one model is within Synapse range. Make Synapse Creatures Stubborn rather than Fearless.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Well it's pointless to talk about rules without talking about what will drive the rules - models.

They can buff Gaunts in the next Codex because everyone has 'Zilla Nid or Stealer Shock armies, so people will have more of those than they have Gaunts. This way they buff Gaunts and people have Zilla/Stealer lists have to go and buy them, and they avoid having to make a new expensive kit.

Bring back the hive mind mutants from 3rd, which bumps thier leadership up to 10. I still find the biggest problem with guants are two fold. 1) Stealers are better 2) Guants outrun synapse

Carnifex options get changed around almost completely in order to generate sales of the kit again and force people to buy more to rework or reconvert their existing ones. Hive Tyrant has its options changed around, requiring existing ones to be broken apart or new ones be bought.

Go Go Magnetize Arms

Stealers get nerfed.

GW already beat you to the punch when they brought out 5th edition :S

Lictors become awesome, so they can sell that model.

Give them the polymorhine drugs ability that Callidus Assassins have. No more dying to difficult terrain tests and or enemy models that they scatter onto.

Zoanthropes become BS 3, so people buy more.

Fixed your quote

Tyranid Warriors go through the same revision as Gaunts - they become awesome so everyone rushes out to buy them, and GW doesn't have to make a new kit.

Much easier and cheaper for GW to make a rules change than to go out and buy a new injection mold which might cost them $80-100K. Still, with the changes to blast rules, DS warriors have much more viability than in 4rth. So they have already made some progress thier.

Do people use Raveners now?

I have 5 beautifully painted ones sitting on my shelf. I have heard tales that some people use them in Apocolypse.

I think this comes down to what makes Tyranids unique versus other races.

Personally, I would like to see their shooting get worse actually. Tyranids should be the only race that can field an effective "no guns" army. They are close to doing that now.

I would make Gaunts the only troop choice, with maybe the exception that a Broodlord allows Geenstealers taken as troops. Guants should be cheaper and fielded in large squad sizes. Maybe even a 10 man minimum on the unit.

I think that shooting is a core mechanic for any army that can do it. Just because you are good in close combat doesn't mean you should get slaughtered without retaliation on the way in.

Most bugs aren't great shooters anyway, making them worse would simply force you to not use ranged symbiotes.

Squig_herder wrote:my wish list for nids:
1. Synapse becomes line of sight not 12" or maybe just increase range to 18-24" maybe.

That or our guants/hormies get their hive mind mutants back (Leadership 10 ala 3rd edition).

2. remove the kill points rule on spore mines, thats just stupid
6. another type of spore mine, maybe
7. cheaper biovores and increase in Ld to maybe 8-9?

Spore mines in general were stupid in 4rth and have become exceedingly dumb in 5th. Go back to the rules of Biovores in 3rd. Leadership 10, independant, Large Blast Templates, Change the flamer (3rd edition bio acid) rules to pointing towards the nearest enemy rather than random, and spore mines not worth KP.

3. taking two of the same weapons eg. venom cannon. doesnt have to be twin linked.

Again, back to 3rd. That or reduce the cost of purchasing the second (TL) weapon.

4. increase the toughness of raveners or the save, maybe T4(5) or Sv4+/5++

Now that rending got nerfed, the redeemability factor for this unit has been severely reduced. Maybe giving them the ability to assault after deep striking and keep the current point cost. Still I don't expect to see too many of these played in future additions.

5. much cheaper base cost of hormagaunts to 6 with no bio-morphs

That would be too cheap, maybe 9-10 pts. What they need even more is a boost in either synapse or a hive node mutant

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:Personally, I'd remove the Without Number upgrade. It's simply unnecessary. I could leave a unit of Burna Boyz at the Tyranid player's table edge and farm kill points. Also makes Tyranids all but immune to the Wipe Out! rule. Imo, you need to able to wipe out the enemy. There is no point in playing if you can't.

Well that is only because he keeps choosing to regenerate them. He doesn't have to.

Skinnattittar wrote:Personally, I hate over running my opponent. Rarely happens, as I mentioned before, I play Guard, but when it does, I a) don't enjoy not having a challenge and b) feel a little bad for the other player, who must be a bit frustrated. So maybe the Tyranids do need their cheese army lists castrated a bit.

5th edition has already taken a nit of the wind out of nidzilla's sail. Rending nerf really put some hurt on genestealers and the VC has been downgraded from a tank destroyer to a tank silencer (even that has been reduced thanks to vehicle cover saves).

Yes other armies have rending, but for tyranids, rending has been thier bread and butter since 3rd edition.

We have plenty of armies in the game that can be consider "purely" shooty; IG, Necrons, Tau, even Space Marines to a certain extent.

We don't have any reall purely Assault Armies. Orks are close, but still have a rather strong shooty element, Chaos leans towards Assault, but still rely on a lot of shooting elements.

I say Tyranids shoul be the one army that can effectively field a "no guns" list. It works well with fluff (tons of disposable killing machines).

I am not saying that Tyranids should have no shooting as that goes against their existing fluff. I am just arguing for more limited shooting, whilst adding incentives to encourage a crazy run in your face play style.

How about 5 point guants, and 10 point Hormagaunts?

How about making the Venom Cannon slightly better but 15 points more expensive, and give Carnifexes fleet?

How about restricitng multiples of the same weapon on creatures?

How about giving leaping to work like calvary and make it dirt cheap for warriors?

How about allowing any winged model in the army to still run?

That may seem a little extreme, but those are the types of changes I am talking about.

jp400 wrote:Yeah...... Then why cant any other STR 10 gun in the game fire 2 shots that hit on a 4+?? That would So make Vindicator tanks worth it.

Because vindicators are AP 2, Large Blast, and Ordanance (good against both tanks and infantry).
Broadsides are 72" range, TL, and AP 1. Hammerheads have a large blast anti infantry option.

The VC is an antitank gun that uses hardened crystals to pentrate metal and then aciding poison to kill the crew. The glancing only should be removed. If you wanted to you could say that VC reroll 6s when rolling on the damage chart of non-opentopped vehicles, or that they incur a -1 penalty on the damage chart for non-opentopped vehicles. But there should be a realistic chance of destroying a vehicle with an anti-vehicle weapon.

The Grundel wrote:I played nids in 3rd and 4th edition, and started up again a few weeks ago for 5th edition.

One thing I must say is the current nid codex is very balanced. It provides a very unique type of army to play that can pack a punch, without being cheesy. Most of the 5h edition rules carry over nicely to it and overall I feel that the list is barely lacking. There are 2 major issues and 2 minor I think should be dealt with.

1. Venom cannon: it was fine in 4th ed. when you could roll a 6 and destroy the vehicle but those rules are gone with 5th edition and its left a serious hole in the nids list.

2. Biovores.

The 2 minor issues is the useless upgrade options for the canifex, and the unadjusted points for the bonuses that some of the upgrades now convey. That and they NEED to make a universal biomorph sprue so people can have all the little pieces that they need to WYSIWYG.

I would add a third major fix: Something needs to be done about units with rending. Since rending got nerfed in a big way, points costs for rending upgrades and stealers should drop.

Cheese Elemental wrote:I think that the VC should stay as just glancing hits. How does poison destroy a vehicle?

The VC is an antitank gun that uses hardened crystals to pentrate metal and then acidic poison to kill the crew.

gorgon wrote:Price breaks -- mostly aimed at Gaunts and Warriors would be the main fixes, IMO. If Orks are worth 6 pts, you could make the case for Gaunts at 4. A 5+ save (either base or as an option) might help at combat res time. However it happens, they need to become better tarpits again.

Lictors need a complete rethink. Carnifexes need biomorph fixes. Biovores just need a tweak.

Tweak? Biovores need a complete overhaul.

For all of you people saying Hormagaunts should be about 10 points for balance, um, pull out the codex.

THEY ARE 10 POINTS.

A base Gaunt should be 3 points. A base Hormagaunt should be about 8.

Bring back the spike rifle.

What I'd like to see and what will happen are two different things.

I am guessing what will happen:
-warriors, gaunts, hormagaunts will get cheaper but otherwise work the same.
-some no brainer stealer biomorphs will get nerfed but otherwise stay the same (feeder tendrils goes away or gets more expensive/useless, scuttlers makes them elite or goes away, etc).
-Ravenors will prolly get the assault after deepstrike ability but go up in price such that no one takes them (ala vanguard). Perhaps a way to buy hit and run.
-Lictors -- I really dunno I think something like what HBMC posted will happen but probably not quite that good. I suspect they will be more killy but still just as squishy or nearly so. Inv save will not happen unless it is close combat only.
-Elite carnifexes either goes away or is limited to certain biomorphs, like just close combat weapons and a few other limitations. Otherwise pretty much as HMBC posted I think stuff like crusher claws will become amazing and the shooting stuff will get nerfed, even if just a bit.
-Biovores will become pretty good probably, dunno how exactly but they need a boost and i think the penduluum will swing hard.
-Gargoyles will get better, probably a boost to bio-plasma and some discounts -- as there will be a plastic kit.

What I would like to see
-Total revamp of synapse. Not tied to any one idea but feel no pain for the non-synapse, non-brood telepathy models would be cool. would make current costs of said models somewhat more palatable. However perhaps make it more of a disadvanatge to boot (not being in synapse is worse, death of synapse has neg effect on army like -1I for a round, etc).

-Some interesting biomorphs instead of stat boost ad naseum. Like say opening up some of the TMC ones to lesser beings. Also maybe balance biomorphs with disadvantages instead of just a cost increase to make them more likely to be taken. Like say toxin sacs lowers I on a gaunt or warrior, etc etc.

-Tyranid warriors biomorphs to get them into tyrant guard territory (or atleast T5 3+ save), perhaps with some sort of disadvantage like a lower synapse range, slow and purposeful or similar.

-Overall I want to see a more interesting army list that is much more mutable and more close combat oriented.

For the pure CC army, daemons can easily make a run for it. They don't have much shooting, though what they do have is rather decent.

Personally, I'd like to see a reduction in synapse. Making models fearless or immune to ID is bad enough, but both is really harsh when you're facing 6 Carnis and 2 Tyrants. (I've been on both sides of having fearless and eternal warrior, so I know full well how rough it is). On 8 monstrous creatures it's just broken. Until you do something to remove or reduce the ability to have both on your monstrous creatures, or at least reduce the radius so you have a chance at getting a carni out of synapse so you have a chance at killing it, nidzilla isn't going away. As far as making synapse line of sight, uh, no. If you do that, might as well just do away with synapse and instinctive behavior, and then give everyone eternal warrior and fearless.

So using instant death to kill want amounts to 50-75% (low count!) of an army in . . . 4-6 wounds is fair?

ok. . . /boggle

Really though.

Biovores need work. I love them and I hate to field them now.

Same for Spore Mines.

And Lictors.

And Hormagants.

Gargoyles and Raveners, I like, but do not like to field anymore. Similar issues, but not as strong a feeling.

Basically, the whole thing could use work - but the codex as a whole is viable still.

Yeah, really. About as fair as running into 8 monstrous creatures that are super tough, and have ridiculous saves that you can't get through, to do enough wounds to stop them from getting to you, before they rip through your army, starting on round 2 thanks to the new run rule. If the nidzilla were reasonable, as opposed to a bit on the overpowered side, you'd see less of it. I'm ok with it being viable as a list, just not more viable than anything else that is available, and would like to see less of it.

I would like to see raveners stay the same point value but gain a 4+ save and toughness five. Remove the gun if you have too, it doesn't even make sense on the model. They are fluffed as giant burrowing hormugaunts, make them giant burrowing hormugaunts.

Lictors need the same thing, same point value but a T5 and a 4+ save. Maybe another attack too. The point value seems right and makes me feel like they are more than a throwaway, but they just can't take the return in combat.

Zoanthropes need to no longer be 0-1, otherwise they are perhaps the single most balanced unit in the book points wise.

Biovores also need to drop the 0-1. They also need better spore mines or a drop in price.

Carnifexes are fine as is, though I would restrict the elite carnifex entry to close combat units only.

Hive tyrants are fine as is, though a few of the upgrades need updating.

Broodlords are better in fifth but need some sort of invulnerable save, genestealers are a bad bodyguard

I would like to see tyrant guard available as a seperate unit to the hive tyrant, but only useable while within synapse. Otherwise they would die or go inert or something. The tyrant guard would provide a good heavy troop in the codex since it really just jumps from the gaunt to the carnifex as far as non synapse non fast assault utility goes.

Genestealers seem fine as is, though I would lower the points of the armor upgrade.

Gargoyles need a new model, otherwise they are perfectly fine as is.

Rippers need their squad size to increase to 3-20 or higher. At 10 they aren't worth taking in the troops slot and are too vulnerable to assault canons and the like.

Warriors are fine as is, though the deathspitter is a bit undercosted now.

Hormugaunts are fine as is, as are termagaunts.

Did I miss anything?

ShumaGorath wrote:Gargoyles need a new model, otherwise they are perfectly fine as is.

,,,

Warriors are fine as is, though the deathspitter is a bit undercosted now.

No one uses these units. How are they 'fine'?

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Gargoyles need a new model, otherwise they are perfectly fine as is.

,,,

Warriors are fine as is, though the deathspitter is a bit undercosted now.

No one uses these units. How are they 'fine'?

BYE

I've seen tons of people use them, and a sizeable warrior squad with deathspitters behind gaunts can put out a terrifying ammount of firepower and is hard to kill. You don't see gargoyles often because the all metal models make collection exceedingly expensive and difficult and you don't see warriors as much (though i see them all the time) because nidzilla doesn't use them.

Do you just have a large ammount of nidzilla in your local area? The vast majority of the tyranid players in Maine use either a mixed force with warriors or huge swarms with warriors. I was the only person in my area that refused to use them. They were crap in fourth, I'll give you that. The change to blasts and gaining 4+ cover means that a 28 point warrior can actually pay for itself several times over. I have trouble dealing with them with my army.

dancingcricket wrote:Personally, I'd like to see a reduction in synapse. Making models fearless or immune to ID is bad enough, but both is really harsh when you're facing 6 Carnis and 2 Tyrants. (I've been on both sides of having fearless and eternal warrior, so I know full well how rough it is). On 8 monstrous creatures it's just broken.

Er... do you own a Tyranid codex, or are you just complaining about Synapse? What S12 gun are you shooting a Tyrant/Fex with hoping to instant kill it? A Carnifex is already Fearless, Synapse or not. This just lets Warriors, Lictors, and Raveners survive to use both wounds against high strength weaponry. If your Tyranid opponent is relying on that to keep such fragile units alive, and succeeding, you have bigger problems than Synapse.

dancingcricket wrote:About as fair as running into 8 monstrous creatures that are super tough, and have ridiculous saves that you can't get through, to do enough wounds to stop them from getting to you, before they rip through your army, starting on round 2 thanks to the new run rule.

I'll agree that T6 can be a pain at times, but a 3+ save on HQ, Elite, and Heavy Support units all costing 113 points or more is hardly ridiculous. How many Marine players are there? And yes, you can give these guys a 2+ save for 25 points a model, and still no invul save to speak of or a 35 point upgrade to Tyrants that takes up their psychic power and gives them a mighty 6+ invul save. If your plan was to take down Carnifex with bolters, you're right, it's fairly difficult. Replace bolters with plasma, melta, missiles, power fists/klaws, etc. and they go down. How about those assault Termies with Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers? 2+/3++, hits cause you to swing at I1?

As far as the run rule, every model in the game can do this so you can't complain when a Carnifex can do it. If anything, Tyranid and Eldar players should be complaining that Fleet is now no different than Run except the turn you're in assault range from it. Units classified as 'Fleet of Foot' are supposed to be faster than non-Fleet infantry but now they're the same speed.

Warriors should be toughness 5 base, period.

Have the Squats eat their home world.

I know they're T6. I also know that they've bounced nightbringer, and that the rest of a necron army is rather ineffectual. Immune to skulltakers special rending/ID ability, Soul Devourer gift of Tzeentch, force weapons, or any other attack you'd normally want to use to try to take out the super baddy that your bolter fire is bouncing off of. 1 or two baddies like that, fine. 3-4 ok. Can deal with that. 8? Uh, no.

Cheese Elemental wrote:I think that the VC should stay as just glancing hits. How does poison destroy a vehicle?

Uh how does a powerfist?

Yea...

Mahu wrote:...see their shooting get worse...
I would make Gaunts the only troop choice, ...

Seeing as how gaunts are completely worthless outside of taking objectives (bad at CC and shooting) I have no idea how this could be a good change, wow. I think Tyranid warriors ought to be troop choices, after all they are TYRANID WARRIORS??? Not hivetyrants. (Besides they have no armor and mediocre shooting and cc abilities anyway)

Augustus wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:I think that the VC should stay as just glancing hits. How does poison destroy a vehicle?

Uh how does a powerfist?

Yea...

A powerfist is a great honking gauntlet shrouded in deadly energies. A Venom Cannon shoots poison.
I would keep Hormies at 10 pts, and maybe give them F-Charge to put them on par with Ork Boyz.

Cheese Elemental wrote:A Venom Cannon shoots poison.

Were you not paying attention?

"The VC is an antitank gun that uses hardened crystals to pentrate metal and then acidic poison to kill the crew."

It doesn't just 'shoot poison'. It's almost a biological railgun.

BYE

VC, Pg 30 tyranid Codex.

In fact, hormies should be dirt cheap; about 6 points. An Ork boy pays 6 pts for two CCW, WS4, S3+F-Charge, T4, and a shooting attack, albeit at BS2.
A Hormagaunt plays 10 pts for +1 BS over the Boy (which it can't use!), -1S, -1T, and piss-poor Ld, requiring synapse to avoid breaking, while Orks have their 11+ fearless mob rule. Hormies should be 5 pts and have F-Charge at least.

If gaunts become the only troop choice, the nids would be nerfed. I find it funny that people don't like the genestealers as they are. Even when I play against them, they have no save and are a toughness 4. Shoot them!

I think a lot of the parts of the codex are fine the way they are. I think if they would make gaunts either cheaper or a little stronger at either close combat or shooting then you'd see less "cheese" armies but with gaunts being useless (other than screening) what would anyone expect?

I just saw second elementals post and I highly agree...that's the type of stuff that forces nid players to take units other than gaunts...they simply don't work.

Genestealers shouldn't cost the same as bloodletter, so I say lower their price to 12.

Lower Hormagaunts cost to 8

I'm ok where Gaunts price are.

Have Zoanthropes have a bigger range for Synapse, I'd say 24 to 36 inches.

Biovores need a big blast template.
Raveners are useless until they fix attack and deepstrike.
Warriors should have a 4+ save.

That's all I have for now.

ShumaGorath wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Gargoyles need a new model, otherwise they are perfectly fine as is.

,,,

Warriors are fine as is, though the deathspitter is a bit undercosted now.

No one uses these units. How are they 'fine'?

BYE

I've seen tons of people use them, and a sizeable warrior squad with deathspitters behind gaunts can put out a terrifying ammount of firepower and is hard to kill. You don't see gargoyles often because the all metal models make collection exceedingly expensive and difficult and you don't see warriors as much (though i see them all the time) because nidzilla doesn't use them.

Do you just have a large ammount of nidzilla in your local area? The vast majority of the tyranid players in Maine use either a mixed force with warriors or huge swarms with warriors. I was the only person in my area that refused to use them. They were crap in fourth, I'll give you that. The change to blasts and gaining 4+ cover means that a 28 point warrior can actually pay for itself several times over. I have trouble dealing with them with my army.

Well, the only reasonable option for warriors right now is death spitter spam. A couple reasons it is becoming more common is 1) it has few other options to compete with, daka fexes being its only real competition for a shooty nid army in filling out an elite slot 2) Dakka Fexes have a harder time finding cover saves in 5th. 3) Reasonable chance of getting its points back (ie good value).

I would not call the DS warrior as under valued (I personaly think it is balanced), it is just that thier is little competition for the slot. Furthermore, we are still talking BS 2, so you have an average 5" scatter on a small Blast Template. If you spend the points to TL the DS, then we are not talking about a 28 pt model. Moreover it has T 4 and Sv 5+. Definately not undervalued. I would persoanlly like to see other warrior builds become more viable.

I would say that the reason you don't see gargoyles is that they are over priced pointwise.

Therefore I would agree with HBMC that both units need work

Bringing this back...

Hive Tyrants I think are fine, but maybe give the S6 instead of S5, as I think it is a bit silly that a monstrous creature that can tear apart tanks with ease is only S5. I think the venom cannon is a bit expensive, maybe by 5 or 10 points.

Tyrant guard are just fine I think, need to pick a few of these up to use.

Broodlord is fine, I would like to pay more points to start with a 3+ save stock, or give him something else to make him a bit more survivable. I don't think making him tougher is fair, T5 is pretty good already.

Warriors are too expensive, they need to have 25% dumped off their base and upgrade costs to make them more viable. Maybe 25% is too much, but they are still too expensive.

Lictors are about 20 points too expensive - they are cool to use but don't get enough play because they cost the same as 5 genestealers.

Genestealers are fine, maybe reduce cost of ex. carapace by 1 point.

Gaunts are probably 1 point too expensive. No matter how many upgrades you throw on them they just get shredded from shooting and in combat.

Hormagaunts too expensive as well. I would say 7 might be as low as you would go points wise as then they are too cheap. The new fearless combat resolution issues make all gaunts really vulnerable in close combat - and it especially bad for hormagaunts as they always hae to assault.

Raveners way too expensive. 5 or 10 points less for starters, and maybe make the ranged weapon symbiotes cheaper. For something with only a 5+ save you can set them up at 50 points too easily. They either need a better save or something else to make them more attractive.

Carnifex's are fine, maybe even make them T7. T6 is good but pretty vulnerable, which isn't what the fluff is about. T7 makes it a bit more survivable and is more "realistic".

Gargoyles - enough said already, cool idea but $1 per point is ridiculous that is FW prices there. If they make these in plastic they would sell like hotcakes - maybe 12 in a pack for the same price as gaunts, or even 16 if GW is feeling generous, given that gargoyles don't get any biomorphs making the sprue simpler (wings, body, head, weapons or legs?).

Zoanthropes seem pretty reasonable. Maybe give warp blast 24" blast all the time.

Spore mines need to not be a FA choice, they need to not contribute to force organisation at all.

CLD wrote:
Carnifex's are fine, maybe even make them T7. T6 is good but pretty vulnerable, which isn't what the fluff is about. T7 makes it a bit more survivable and is more "realistic".

I agree with everything besides the tyrant upgrading to S6(Why? He's already amazing as is), and this bit about carnifex's.

I'm in the line of thinking adding thirty points to their base cost ought to make nidzilla go away til next edition(As it's all anyone ever plays anymore.)

Gaunts need to go down in price, raveners need reworking(5t 4+ and infiltrate), and warriors could use a little points break.

And I don't think I've ever seen a spore mine or biovore on the table...ever. In all honesty, I forgot they were in the codex.

I agree that the tyrant is good - I just think fluff wise a monstrous creature such as the tyrant should be a little bit stronger than oh say a Broodlord. The carnifex T7 is more a wish list sort of thing, I don't think they would really do that as they are very tough as is.

I don't think they should make nidzilla go away - other races have power builds as well, why take away one of the only tyranid ones? And it isn't the only thing you see being played, go and look at the army lists on this forum, I would say only 10 - 20% are nidzilla. The rest are pretty balanced.

I don't think raveners need T5 as I don't think that really fits with the fluff. T4 is fine, they just need a 4+ save and a points break. They are way too expensive.

I played nids vs nids on the weekend and the guy I was playing used biovores - they were not very effective even in a brood of 3. He did of course utilise warrior deathspitter spam. That was a killer.

Wow, somebody used Biovores...will wonders never cease

Wow you totally just showed me up right there pal, I am smarting from that one.

Is someone upset they didn't get there usual early morning spooning?

I'd say rather than limiting or improving Synapse, it should become rather critical to the Army.

In 2nd Edition, it went a too far way the one way, whereby once all Synapse had been taken down, the Tyranid player automatically lost.

Then came 3rd Edition, and their horrific first Codex, whereby taking Hive Node, the effects of Synapse were largely eradicated completely.

I'm not terribly familiar with the current book, but I still say that Synapatic Webs need to be a major consideration for the Tyranid Player.

In Epic, they used hexagonal cards to 'plot' your web. You started off with a Synapse Creature, and depending on how large the creature, you could add a number of broods to this. Perhaps this could be of use? Sure, it's break from the FoC, but then if any army could benefit in terms of themeing, surely it's the Tyranids?

Essentially, I feel the total loss of Synapse on the board should be utterly catastrophic for the Tyranid army. Give each unit an instinctive behaviour for when out of Synapse Range sure, but keep it sensible. Gaunts of all varieties should lurk, counting as pinned until brought back under Syanptic control. Whilst outside of it, nothing should count as a scoring unit. Carnifexes should move like Spawn, randomly toward the nearest enemy unit, representing it's bestial, unthinking nature. It's all fine and well to say instincts go far beyond simple behaviours like this, but then Tyranid constructs don't have the same instincts as we have. They are engineered, usually with a specific task in mind. Let the instincts reflect that.

I still argue that rules for non-Synapse horde only armies should exist.

All you get are gaunts and Hormagaunts. They simply charge the enemy. They cannot hold objectives, table quarters, or anything. No scuttling or outflanking, nothing. The only way the horde army wins is by tabling the opponent.

This would work better for smaller games without vehicles, since they really couldn't kill many of them.

Hate to say it, but that sounds really boring to play against!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Hate to say it, but that sounds really boring to play against!

Really? I'd love the desperation aspect of having to try to gun them down before they get to you. Fighting them more as Tyranids are fluffed than they end up in actual games.

In General, I agree, but here is my twist on the Hive Mind of views:
Give all Models Fleet: With run, fleet is not massively more impressive. For those that already had fleet, cut prices somewhat, again due to run.
Make rending claws=Power weapons, 'cause rending got nerfed
Lictor: either really boost it, or cut it down to 50-60 points. Also allow it to avoid deepstike mishaps.
Hormagaunts: just make them leaping, not beasts, and cut the cost by 2-4 points without 'morphs.
Spore mines not worth VP
Plastic gargoyles
Raveners can assault the turn they deepstrike
Make winged models.
Venom Cannons can Pen.
Other than that, as far as my experiance goes, the list is fairly good.

Trouble is, leaping makes you a Beast, it's in the rules.

Why suddenly give Stealers Power Weapons? That would involve a fairly high price hike for them.

Spore Mines are bought and paid for, why not give out VPs?

Why allow Raveners to assault after deepstrike? Only one unit can do that currently. Whats wrong with timing it as best you can to tie up potential ranged threats for when they arrive?

Venom Cannons I kind of agree with, seeing as how the charts have changed.

Leaping does not make them beasts, down in the rules.
Stealers are paying for 4th ed. Rending, which was quite good, so the point boost would not be that great, and if the points for fleet are dropped, it would probably balance out.
Raveners assaulting after deepstrike is just more in line with their fluff.
Spore mines are just suicide attack units, so are not worth anything, hence no VP.
Also, bring back the red terror.

But Fleet is still extremely tasty, with being allowed to assault up to 18" in any given turn.

Raveners still need to emerge from their holes, and somehow I doubt it would be to a round of applause.

Spore Mines might be suicide troops, but they still cause damage. I could say the same for Shield Drones. They are there to absorb damage only, should they give nothing?

Synapse is already critical to the army. The fourth edition codex brought it back in a big way with the elimination of Hive Nodes. The problem is that among their other obvious strengths, Nidzilla armies mostly don't have to worry about synapse. Many of the problems with the current codex can be traced back to the Shock Troops rule.

But hey, it let them sell a lot of Carnifex kits.

I like the Ideas that Mahu was talking about. Though warriors need a general buff and should retain the ability to be either HQ, Elite, or Fast Attack. Gaunts need to get a slight points reduction. Hormagaunts can be 7 points before biomorphs. When you add things like leaping and other biomorphs it puts them back in the ubergaunt range of 12-14 points. I would also like to see the option for a hive node in Gaunt squads so they can stray a bit ways away from synapse but make it Ld 8 instead of 10 so there is a chance of IB.

Tyranids should be a HtH force but much like the Orks, evolved into a shooting army. I would like to see a biomorph that allows fleet.

But Gaunts won't run away from combat, ever, as long as there is a Synapse Creature in range, surely that is something worth a good few points?

thehod wrote:
Tyranids should be a HtH force but much like the Orks, evolved into a shooting army. I would like to see a biomorph that allows fleet.

Then they shouldn't be less capable in all aspects, have worse weapons and be more expensive. The new Orks are a bitch to deal with.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:But Gaunts won't run away from combat, ever, as long as there is a Synapse Creature in range, surely that is something worth a good few points?

Orks get a similar benefit at the right mob size and tend not to lose combats so badly because of their higher WS, T, and overall offensive output. In 5th edition, fearless is least beneficial to those that lack h2h kill power and a significant armor save.

What about making Gaunts WS4 with a 5+ save? All that chitin has got to protect at least as well as IG flak armor. Higher WS should translate to fewer casualties, as will a boosted armor save. And that way you're not boosting Gaunts' S, T or A unrealistically.

Off the top of my head, another approach could be to allow the option of rolling a regular break test on the synapse creature's Ld value instead of taking the fearless casualties. But I'm not sure how often this would really be that beneficial since you're still losing combats by a significant margin. Maybe this synapse fix in combo with the Gaunt changes?

Also, Hormagaunts need to go to A3.

The reason is because they've lost ground vs. the rest of the field, while their points cost (which was always slightly high) hasn't changed. In 3rd edition, their leap rule meant they threw out many more attacks than virtually anything else, since only models in b2b normally got their full attacks. Obviously, h2h rules have changed and their leap rule hasn't changed enough to keep up. So I say just simplify things by ditching the extra inch of engagement range and making them A3 base. That'd return them to what was originally envisioned by Andy C. in the 3rd ed. codex.

Let both tyrants take wings, lift the 0-1 for broodlords, make warriors S and T 5, make lictors better, make gaunts better, make Hormagaunts USEABLE, and then:

Make elite fexes 0-1, so people cant take 8 MC's anymore. Also, make genestealers an elites choice (what, blasphemy!) but you can take one squad for each broodlord and make them troops. So then:

You can still do stealer shock, and do it right this time with 2 blords instead of one and a flyrant (random)

You can still do zillanids with 6 mcs instead of 8 and then have more of an army around it. I really like this idea but with 0-1 restrictions slowly going by the wayside I don't really see it happening

You can do a fast winged or beast army with flyrants, winged warriors, raveners, and hormagaunts

You can mix and match cool things together and make a balanced list that doesn't just get cratered turn 1 and 2.

I don't think guns need toning down or beefing up. Vcannons could pen, but think of how broken a 3 gunfex 2 vc tyrant army would be against most current vehicle builds. We already know crons are going to come out and rape vehicle armies of their worth, so I really can't see nids adding to that trend since they made vehicles better in 5th.

Zoeys are fine, leave them exactly the same. oh and make mines, thropes, and lictors count as 1 KP for the whole unit, not just 1 per model. It sucks giving up 3 kps for 3 thropes.

My 2c
Justin C.

Cap fexes at 0-4. This way players who like mini-fexes can still play lots, but 8 TMC Nidzilla armies go bye-bye, meaning that players will have to buy some other parts of an army, not just 8-broods of vanilla stealers.

Gargoyles need a point reduction and upgrade options.

As it stands, they compare to furies for being useful only for conversions.

Ok first let me say I don't play nids...but i've been playing against my friends nids for 4 years almost.

1) Synapse still should still be the linchpin to this army - makes it unique.

2) Remove the 0-1 thing on broodlords - for those who don't like synapse.

3) Stealers get new rending - power wepons would be too much imho - also mabe 4+ armor to make them live longer? However if they did get power weps - lower brood size and make them eliets unless they run a broodlord to make 1 squad a troops choice per lord?

4) Limit the flex's to 4. Make them do something else other than Nidzilla's

5) Make gaunts of all types including gargolys more along the new orks line points wise and saves wise. However mabe loosing that without number on the gaunts in compensation.

6) For those who beleive revers should be able to assult when deep striking - mabe only 6" instead of 12 would be a fair compromise?

7) Venom cannon - should be alowed to pen - however if it stays assult x (fine now) maybe only allow 1 per monsterous creature (not sure how the flex and hive tyrants wepon choices work with 2 guns - tl or 2 individual) that way you dont have them running 2 per mc and shooting 4-6 times or somthing like that

Anyway these are my non nid player thoughts - i do think Nids need an upgrade. Chew em up, spit them out, run all over em if you need to.

They actually "fixed" the tyranids ability to take 2 separate VC in 4rth by making it so that if you purchased two of the same weopon it became TL.

Then again, allow 8Nidzilla armies. 'Nids are the only army that can't play a Mechanized list (Which is near totaly immune to small arms fire/assaults), so they should get something.

An interesting concept for Nid tank busting could be a bio-lightning cannon something like
RNG 36" Str 7 AP 2 Assault 1 it is somewhat a plasma clone but it could also be used as a spore mine

Mattlov wrote:I still argue that rules for non-Synapse horde only armies should exist.

All you get are gaunts and Hormagaunts. They simply charge the enemy. They cannot hold objectives, table quarters, or anything. No scuttling or outflanking, nothing. The only way the horde army wins is by tabling the opponent.

This would work better for smaller games without vehicles, since they really couldn't kill many of them.

The already made a non-Synapse horde option: Orks.

Drop 180 boyz on the table and charge. Put whatever else you feel like on the table, because the 6 point CC-gods are going to win it for you.

Match up 180 points of boyz (30 base) against 180 points of anything tyranid have that you like. Anything. Give tyranid the charge.

It's not even close--no assault will go past two turns before the 'nids are wiped out. Orks won't lose half their unit, ever.

What is with all the hatred towards the Nidzilla list? Is everybody ranting about nerfing mechanized guard because they can run 9 Russes and all the fixings? No, so people should stop complaining about a Nid list that can have a few troops that won't go down to a quick flamer burst and a CC follow-up.

The way I see things are as follows:

Hive Tyrants, they're fine as they are but I wouldn't mind Warp Field giving a 4++ or even a 5++ invulnerable to fit the with the everything is tougher trend. Before you cry broken, look at all the ways people can give tanks a 4+ save, MC's are nid tanks.

Tyrant guard work just fine as is, no changes needed here.

Broodlord, remove the 0-1 restriction and allow them to be fleet so they can be useful to a stealer squad.

Warriors, I really want to like them, but they just cost too much. I'd like to see them have 5 toughness and a 4+ save or reduced cost.

Lictors, allow the player to choose when they deploy and allow them to assault the turn they come in. This would then represent them laying a cunning ambush.

Stealers either need a base cost decrease or scuttlers and flesh hooks for free. Also, don't make flesh hooks share a slot with anything else.

Guants drop them by a point each base and keep everything else the same, this will allow for some better WoN builds and allow Gaunts to keep players body counts high.

Hormagaunts, maybe give them a rule that makes them stubborn and not fearless, give them an extra attack, and give them a better save on a turn the brood hits over a certain number of times to show them dragging foes down and making them fight back worse.

Rippers, I'd like to see them as strength 2 with rending to show them geting everywhere. Giving them 4 initiative would also make them into a unit that isn't a complete liability.

Raveners need to cost less and maybe cause units to make a morale test when they enter play.

Gargoyles need a plastic kit, but they should also have furious charge to show them dive bombing in when they attack. Then they wouldn't be sop over costed.

Sporemines should be like an orbital strike (in that they shouldn't give KP's), they should all scatter separately, and they should come in groups of five. Then you would have a random rain of death that can come down and kill things.

Zoanthropes are actually fine as they are, especially if you use the better invulnerable save idea from the HT's.

Fex's should have a biomorph that gives fleet and VC's should be at only -1 on the damage chart. As well an option for FnP instead of that useless regenerate would be nice.Then we don't have uber tank killing shooting, but we can do something to a Monlith or a Land Raider.

If those changes are made then they'll be better suited to the new armor spam edition of 40k.

Honestly Nids don't need much of a change in whatever new codex they'll get. Also, I'm assuming they're pretty far out as far as the codex redo's go seeing as armies are still around from 3rd that haven't gotten their codex redone yet, Dark Eldar, Daemon Hunters, Witch Hunters, Necrons...

Anyway, everytime I've played against a Nid player I've lost horribly, might be due to my inexperience playing against nids, or my opponents taking advantage of me due to the fact I don't know the Nid rules, but whatever it is, I really don't think Nids need many changes. Hell, you could just put out a FAQ to fix the little things that are glitched since 5th, such as kill point spore mines.

If anybody thinks that Nids can compete with Mech guard and Vulkan marines they must be kidding themselves. For 130 points you get a Valk which can drop a more expensive Carnifex in a turn or two with a bit of help. We also face the LR Execution with Pask and Plasma sponsons backed by meltas in Chimeras to finish the job the other units started. Stealer shock will eat flamers and a mixed warrior list can be beaten by any mech build and various other lists.

Vulkan Marines with 2+/3++ termies, ap 3 sternguard bolters, twin-linker melta and flamers and tanks to boot will eat Nids alive as well. Not to mention mechanized Orks with hidden PK's and Deffrollas.

Genestealer:

WS 6 S4 T4 W1 I6 A2 Ld 10 Sv 5+ Fleet & Rending

Cost


Try to make it a synapse stealer out of a Warrior...

WS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A2+1 Ld10 Sv 5+
Talon & Claw & Synapse

Cost 32

Wow, twice the cost for -1 WS, -1 I for +1 wound and +1 attack and no fleet.

I am not saying I want to field them just that it illustrates how TW are overcosted and why you see genestealers and/or MC armies.
I field shooty warriors with blast marker hell but I could never justify a "light" hq HTH unit of these.

For one, give them fleet so they can keep up with gaunts and maybe even back up an assault. It gives them a role in bug armies that other synapse can't do without costly wing biomorphs.


Ork Cost 6 WS4 BS2 A2 T4 2 S4 Shots 18" Range, Furious Assault

Fleshgaunt Cost 6 WS3 BS3 A1 T3 1 S4 Shot 12" Range Synapse Dependent

Imperial Guard Cost 5 WS3 BS3 A1 T3 2 S3 Shots at 12" range Grenades & +1 Shot with orders....

Gaunts are too overpriced and underpowered in 5th ed for any bug player to consider playing them as more than WoN objective holders and cover-save meatshields.

My suggestion would be leave the biomorphs as is but lower the base cost to something like 2. Get rid of WoN and you will have bugs thinking about playing hoard screens again or reasonably morphing up a dual-purpose Spinegaunt that is not too bad in HTH against normal stuff.


They work and do about the same thing. Both use beast rules, deep strike and - assuming synapse for the ravener - both can't be instant killed. Both rend - assuming the ravener pays for claws. The Warp Beast has extra attacks and a 5+ invulnerable... guess which one costs more?


I have to agree, with 5th ed it is time to get rid of the VC can only glance nerf. If not, the cost needs to significantly go down since with the new charts it just isn't worth the points.


Lictors need some help. Biovores need to be viable, like the idea of treating spore mines like chaos spawn and worth ZERO KPs.
(If not, just get rid of them... we kill valuable trees to print worthless rules otherwise.)

im just wondering as im an ork player how did rending get nerf the kill most troops on a 6 on a d6

orkylooter wrote:im just wondering as im an ork player how did rending get nerf the kill most troops on a 6 on a d6

While ignoring how strange that sentence was, let me explain: Rending USED to be: on a 6 to hit, auto-power wound. Very strong. As it is now, it's on a 6 to wound, auto-power. That's less likely than the first version. (in the first one, you rolled a 6, an enemy took a wound. Now you have to hit them first, in most cases making it 33% less likely.)

Rending is the least of my concerns. Ork Boyz vs Hormagaunts is just ridiculous:

Boyz (6 points)
WS4 S3 T4 A2+1 (pistol + ccw)

Hormagaunt (10 points)
WS4 S3 T3 A1+1 (talons)

Plus the boys have furious charge. Granted the Hormies will get the charge with leaping most of the time. Add on Toxin Sacs (12 points now) for the gaunts and compare equal point forces:

15 hormagaunts (180 points) vs 30 ork boyz (180 points)
Let the hormagaunts assault (since it's very likely):

45 attacks (hit 1/2, wound 1/2, fail save 5/6) 5/24 attacks kill. Let's say 9 for a round number (1 in 5 attacks kill).
There are now 21 orks left. Honestly, 9-10 of them probably weren't even engaged in the fight. So let's say 20 orks are able to swing back:
60 attacks (hit 1/2, wound 1/2, fail save 5/6), rounded to 1 in 5 killing attacks--12 casualties for the hormagaunts.

So now it's 3 hormagaunts vs 21 orks, and the hormagaunts need to make three 6+ saves or wipe to No Retreat.

I'm not expecting to dominate, but seeing two swarm army CC troops of equal point value--it's blatant that Tyranid troops are WAY too expensive.

Im fairly satisfied with the nids current codex i have 0 problems running the army infact im often shocked at how well they do.
Tho there are a few issues but keep in mind not every unit in a codex can be a great unit but they should atleast be effective in certain situations.

Things that i think need amending follow

Clarify the lictors secret deployment rules.

Ditch the glance only rule on VC or give us an alternative weapon for av that don't use the creatures base attacks.

Gargoyles and raveners could use some tweaks to make them more useful.

i dont understand what everyones problem with the hormies vs boyz there not going to stand up to orks period, the orks will crush them like the bugs that they are i mean i cant picture a better target for orks as they love to just go crazy and beat the crap outa stuff.

If you play your nids right your gaunts should almost always be infront of your hormies then have warriors or something else shooty behind them. gaunts fire into a mob of orks say 30 of them prob kill 6 warriors fire from behind and kill more orks lets say about 8
gaunts charge lose some but hold there ground next turn charge hormies and they will wipe out the rest, rinse and repeat.

What im geting at with all that is the tyranid army has to have all its units working i cooperation to succeed, in a unit vs unit scenario the a nid unit will not stand up another unit alone especial the non synapse units.

If we can't fight with boys we should cost less than boys. Guard got a drop fro basic troops the bugs should too.

Include the art that is in the current Codex... I flipped through the thing for the first time a week ago and loved the line drawings of some of the nids. In fact, I'm planning on buying it just for the art.

I think Nids need a point reduction for the little guys (gaunts and horms) to balance them out in the new equation based on the cost of a basic ork boy. I am happy with how the swarm plays now, if my little guys got cheaper I'd go from six 20 man troops to the full 32...

I hope they do something to make playing Tyranid swarm a little more appealing (points adjust as I mentioned would help but maybe some other unit based or army wide boost/fix to swarm play as well) and/or Nidzilla less of an option/appealing. It has gotten a little old to meet player after player who claims to play Tyranids who then just plops down six carnifexes and a couple of tyrants...

Beyond that I think the list is pretty good as is.

infernus1986 wrote:If you play your nids right your gaunts should almost always be infront of your hormies then have warriors or something else shooty behind them. gaunts fire into a mob of orks say 30 of them prob kill 6 warriors fire from behind and kill more orks lets say about 8
gaunts charge lose some but hold there ground next turn charge hormies and they will wipe out the rest, rinse and repeat.

What im geting at with all that is the tyranid army has to have all its units working i cooperation to succeed, in a unit vs unit scenario the a nid unit will not stand up another unit alone especial the non synapse units.

What I'm getting with all that is you call throwing 2-3 times the points value of ork boyz a success. What are you doing about the additional mob of boys that he bought to match your gaunt brood? Now he gets another 15 or so to match your warriors. If you throw gaunts + hormagaunts + warriors at those boyz, there's no longer 30 of them, there's 75-90 of them. You're opponent gets the same number of points you do, remember.

Tyranid troops are too expensive.

Change synapse to "all non-MC units under synapse have Feel No Pain". We've been trying it around the tables at the shop and it actually works quite well. No increase in their offensive potential, but it takes longer to wipe them out.

I'm all for taking the Carnies out of the Elite slot if it means they put them in squads in the heavy slot at 1-3 models per unit. This limits their shooting output but allows people to field a nasty wall o'big bugs. Basically if gaunts, warriors (other than deathspitter ones), and other options were viable then 'Nidzilla would be reduced without any changes being necessary. It's the dang new fearless rules in combat and the overcosted models that keep people playing 'Nidzilla.

Eugee wrote:
Change synapse to "all non-MC units under synapse have Feel No Pain". We've been trying it around the tables at the shop and it actually works quite well. No increase in their offensive potential, but it takes longer to wipe them out.

I disagree with this.

I'd rather see Synapse make nids fearless (thus untractable when lose combat) and confer catalyst: so they potentially take extra wounds when losing combat (seems right and fair, especially if they get cheaper) but be able to strike regardless of INt order/assaulting into cover, etc.which would represent them throwing themselves at the enemy at the urging of the hive mind in a wave of claws and fangs regardless of danger/losses which is very cinematic/fluffy...

I don't think th catalyst part will come to be, but I think synapse will chaneg to providing fearless instead of autopassing all LD tests.

And gaunts and hormahaunts will definately drop in points. I see a gaunt's base cost dropping to 3pts. and a horm to say 8pts. I think all the upgrades will disappear for both except for the different weapon options which will modify the base cost, thus a gaunt w/ fleshborer will cost 5pts. which seems in line w/ the base cost of a ork boy and an guardsman...

Here’s a quick response to a few of the more popular appeals.

All gaunts need more than a 6+ armor save. –And you would still want them to be fearless. Yeah… OP much? Your power is in quantity, not quality.

Needs moar armor penetration against spezz marehnz. –No. We have zoanthropes (arguable the best unit in the codex now that wound spreading is kosher) and mass fire power. Quantity of shots over the quality of AP will win the day.

Venom cannon de-nerf. –For the love of god yes. Please. You have to get within 18 inches with zoanthropes and 12 with carnifexes. Against better mechanized lists this appears to be an un-possible task.

Gargoyles need a buff – NO. Gargoyles are one of the best assaulting units in the codex. Move 12’, shoot at S4, assault and get one attack at S4 I8, two at S3 I4. All they need are plastic models.

Zoanthropes should lose the 0-1 restriction. –No, for the sake of balance. It’s a 2+ save you can wound spread on, it kills tanks and marines… what else do you what in our new codex, lightsabers? If anything, make warp field a 5+ invulnerable and leave it at that.

Lictors need a buff, badly. –Yes, they certainly do. 5+ save in combat, 4 attacks with a chance that less than one dice will cause an instant wound. They attack back, you die. Better armor or power weapons are needed here (not both!). It NEEDS to retain it’s reserves enabler status.

Raveners. –These guys need a total revamp from almost every angle. I don’t even know where to begin.
Make up for rending. –Genestealers can outflank now, that more than makes up for it IMO. Maybe, MAYBE, give them a 4+ save base. MAYBE.

Gaunts are worthless and only good for objective grabbing, price drop please! –No. Emphatically. I’ve had people ignore my 40 gaunts and go straight for the big things. The gaunts then massacre their infantry units and the big ones still have 1-3 wounds left across the board. They kill the gaunts. Boohoo, now the Big Ones are in their face with full wounds. BS3, S4, re-roll to wound. That is NOT bad in the shooting phase. I would expect a 1 point price drop to base cost and weapons at the most.

Synapse needs a reboot. –Don’t fix what isn’t broken. Yes, we suffer from no retreat, but that makes sense. Space marines don’t when they auto-pass, but then they pay 300 points for that privilege.

I think what this comes down to is that we want a small buff to each of the troop choices and major revamps to specific units (lictors, raveners, biovores). Please, please, PLEASE do not spam us with more types of units. Trygons I can understand but that should be IT. Period. The niches in the nid list have been filled.








Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, why are you charging ork boyz? Shoot them with stranglers, they have a 6+ armor save!

Slackermagee wrote:

Zoanthropes should lose the 0-1 restriction. –No, for the sake of balance. It’s a 2+ save you can wound spread on, it kills tanks and marines… what else do you what in our new codex, lightsabers? If anything, make warp field a 5+ invulnerable and leave it at that.

How are you wound spreading on Zoanthropes btw?

You buy 1-3 as a single force org choice but they are individual models correct?

Gaunts don't need and won't get a betetr save. They WILL get a points drop and remain the cheap and plentiful fodder/ swarm models they should be...

Lictors need something definately, not sure what exactly, but something...

Carnifexes WILL lose the elite slot option ,Id bet money on it.

Slackermagee wrote:Here’s a quick response to a few of the more popular appeals.

All gaunts need more than a 6+ armor save. –And you would still want them to be fearless. Yeah… OP much? Your power is in quantity, not quality.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, why are you charging ork boyz? Shoot them with stranglers, they have a 6+ armor save!

Hmm. What unit do I know that can have a better than 6+ save, fearless, higher toughness, furious charge, and more attacks than gaunts...Oh, right. Ork Boyz.

15 hormagaunts versus 18 'Ard Boyz

Hormagaunts charge.
45 attacks, 45/2 hit, 45/4 wound, 45/8 unsaved = ~5.6 dead orks.
Orks attack
39 attacks, 39/2 hit, 39/4 wound, 195/24 unsaved. 8.1 dead gaunts.

Gaunts lose by three, fearless wounds take another 1-2.

Consider that these gaunts are directly attacking the orks' weakness by preventing them from charging, and are still losing cc. If the orks charged...Well, sucks to be a gaunt.

15 hormaguants versus 18 'ard boyz

Orks charged
Hormagaunts attack
30 attacks, 15 hit, 15/2 wound, 15/4 unsaved = 3.75 dead orks
Boyz attack
60 attacks. 30 hit. 15 wound. 75/6 unsaved. 12.5 dead gaunts.
gaunts lose by 8 at the most generous,

When your opponent gets quantity AND quality, it's pretty hard to beat.

I say, don't change gaunts abilities. Instead, Drop The Hormy's down to 6 pt, and I will say that they are fairly balanced on ork Boyz. Dakka Gaunts should also drop to about 6pt a pop, with S3 Deathspitters, to balance vs shoota boyz. Spinegaunts should drop to 3, termies to 4, to make up for the 12" range on their guns.

Make Venom cannons cheaper, and able to penetrate stuff. Nids really need help Vs Mech.

Feeder Tendrils should cost more, Scuttlers a bit more, and you should be able to take Frag's and Feeder Tendrils on Genestealers. Drop the Cost on Extended Carapace and Scything Talons, and maybe the Genestealers themselves. Also, replace Rending with Power Weapons. Genestealers should rock the assault, not be stuck on AT duty.

Edit:
For Raveners, Make 'em move like Jetbikes. Lethaly Fast Medium attackers instead of sort of Fast, expensive Medium attackers.

Eugee wrote: Orks vs hormagaunts etc.

No-one ever-ever fields 30 ork boyz on thier own. Its always with a nob, PK & bosspole. Simple as, really.

I would never field a hormagaunt without +1str & +1ws and if Im going against standard I4 MEQ, +1I aswell.. but lets be generous to the hormies & just give them the first two upgrade;

30orks, Nob, Pk, Bosspole. = 220 (Assuming, favouringly, that they didnt take expensive big-shootas & as slugga boys for the extra attacks)

17 Hormagaunts, +1str, +1ws = 221

First turn -Hormagaunts swing & take out 14 boys. Orks swing back & take out 10 hormagaunts. Orks loose combat by four & loose four boyz (6+ save didnt help unluckily)

Second turn the hormagaunts swing & kill another 4 boyz.. the remaining 7 boys & the nob swing back & kill 5 hormagaunts. The hormagaunts loose combat by one & loose a model, leaving one remianing, locked in combat.

Third turn - Boyz eat hormagaunts.

The hormagaunts wouldve easily won if the boyz were Shoota boys and/or the hormagaunts had feeder-tendril support. With feeder-tendrils, the first charge wouldve dealt enough damage to kill 19-20 boys, the orks wouldve swung back for 7 dead hormagaunts & the orks wouldve lost combat by 10 & the squad will either loose 8 more orks from No Retreat! or get run down - as they would need 2's on thier leadership check which even with a re-roll would be unlikely.

See, properly equipped (both sqauds) things turn out differently.

Tyranids only need a few intuative hordey rules, a progression of the Hive-mind/Synapse rules but to work with 5th edition.. aswell as addressing some of the flawed units (Biovores/raveners etc).

Yes, however you're being dishonest in your comparison because adding feeder tendrils would would give the boyz enough points for a warboos which would allow them to shoot and get the assault off which changes everything.

If we give the gaunts a feeder tendril Broodlord then the orks have enough points to bring in a warboss with a Big Choppa. Now the points go as follows.

Orks: 295 pts.
Warboss Big Choppa, Cybork
30 Slugga Boyz, Nob PK and BP

Gaunts: 294
Broodlord, Feeder Tendrils
17 Hormagaunts +1 str, +1 ws

Simulation One (Gaunts Charge)

Broodlord swings and hits 3.75 times, and wounds 2.5 boyz who won't get a save.

The Warboss and gaunts swing at the same time, with the warboss hitting 3.33 times and wounding 2.22 times, the gaunts make .35 of a save. The gaunts strike for 22.5 hits and wound 15 times, the orks make 12.5 saves and lose 13 orks.

The ork boyz now swing back and wound 11.25 gaunts of which 10 die, the PK boy nob aims for the BL and hits wounds him for 1 wound. The orks now take two more wounds and the warboss takes one.

Numbers now stand at Orks 17 boyz, and a warboss with 2 remaining wounds, vs. and three gaunts and broodlord with 2 wounds. Next round the orks win easily losing only 3 more boyz, or a wound on the warboss.

Final Tally: Gaunts and Broodlord earn back only 140 points while the orks win back their points value and, if they aren't killed by nid shooting in the next round. Can still be usefull as they still have all the tools to kill and carnifex if they can get close enough.

That is the best case for the gaunts, if the orks get a round of shooting or the charge it becomes even worse.

So as we can see even in a best case scenario the gaunts don't have a prayer.

Norade wrote:
Orks: 295 pts.
Warboss Big Choppa, Cybork
30 Slugga Boyz, Nob PK and BP

Gaunts: 294
Broodlord, Feeder Tendrils
17 Hormagaunts +1 str, +1 ws

++

Um..

The broodlord wouldnt just have feeder tendrils, just as the Warboss wouldnt just have a big-choppa. The warboss & Broodlord are both IC so if they did charge, the broodlord would eat the warboss.

With a waaghh fleet move, you can assault a maxiumum of 18". The gaunts can asault a minimum of 19". Also, assuming the brood-lord doesnt actually make it but is within 2" of the back-most gaunt to give the squad prefered enemy USR.

First turn -17 hormagaunts swing (@ the orks) for 45.3 hits (34+11 on the re-roll). That equates to 22 wounds. This equates to 18 dead orks.

Undamaged warboss @ I4 & remaining orks @ I3. Orks hit 18 times and wound 9 of which 7.5 (8) hormagaunts die. The warboss kills one hormagaunts (1.3)

First turn results - Orks loose combat by 9 (18 vs 9 = 9 wounds lost by) which equals 7.5 (8) dead orks.

Second turn - Brood lord charges in & (nearly) kills the warboss. 5 attacks = 4.4 hits. Those hits equal 2.9ish wounds of which 2.48 are unsaved. So he should live. (Ideally the broodlord would attack the easier to kill orks but hey, ive done it now)

9 hormagaunts hit 16 times. This wounds 8 orks & 6.68 (7) orks die. Thats all the orks dead, as there were four left = (30 - (18+8+7))

Warboss strikes @ I4 (same as hormagaunts) & hits and kills another 1.3 hormagaunts (lets assume 2).

Second turn result - Orks lost combat by 5. (7 - 2). The warboss needs to make an unlikely LD roll under a 4 to stay in the fight.. otherwise the I7 broodlord should rundown the I4 warboss.

Granted, with the broodlord @ +1str, +1sv & feeder tendrils, I do have about 6 more points than you. No contest, tbh. Ive got an un-wounded broodlord (you didnt wanna try and fight him, tbh) and 7 hormagaunts left, enough to deal with another reduced strength ork mob.

Edit: Getting back to the OP.. a Biovore & its sporemines should really start to have the same relationship as a whirlwind and its castellen rockets - Meaning it doesnt vomit up killpoints every salvo. Also some more effective unique ammo types would be nice.

Your Broodlord would only be able to put a single wound on the warboss 0.88 percent of the time assuming the boss had the Cybork upgrade and the Broodlord charges. On his turn the Warboss will give back 1.04 wounds to the Broodlord. Also, with the Broodlord in their squad the Hormagaunts lose fleet and can't move as beasts, and if he isn't with the squad say goodbye to the bonuses. Without one of those things the Orks will win every time and unlike the Nids, Ork boyz synergize with there top tier HQ choices.

This is of course without bringing up mech orks which could bring in two squads of 11 boyz with a PK and Bosspole both mounted in trucks. They would now get a turn of shooting and have better maneuverability than the Hormagaunts, even if they don't Waaagh!, meaning they now get the charge.

When comapairing mech to nids; Nids will always lose. Comparing the troops point for point Nids lose. If we want to use the same points then 'Ard boyz in a truck will ruin your gak.

**Edit** Looking up the FAQ on zoanthropes... unsure if the codex lets you run them as a unit or forces you to run them as three seperate 'characters' deployed as a single unit. Codex says "Do not need to be placed together and operate independently during the game."

**Edit 2** I'm pretty sure what I was doing was not correct. No FAQ entry and the codex lacks that awesome word 'can'. Now that I think about it though... having three one man units might actually be better. They HAVE to focus fire on them one at a time.

On the subject of Ork Boyz, AGAIN: shoot them. Shoot them. Shoot them some more. You have large blast templates at S8 AP5, small blast templates at S5-7 AP6, small blast templates at S5 AP3, and then you also get dakka MCs, shooty warriors, etc. People don't want to melee nids, so I just tooled my list to shoot them on the turn or two extra it takes to get into melee. Against walking (or frankly, even mechanized) Orks... blast away. Them can't take your fire power... which is kinda sad really.

Also, played Mech Tau (the worst list to play with nids!) the other day on kill points of all things. Ended up 10 - 11 him, REALLY close game. Sometimes you don't have to have the awesome killy shots, just the volume of decent S6-8 shots.

Shoot them out of their battle wagons and trucks which are getting a 4+ cover save because everybody will have a KFF. Your average turns hooting with three gunfexes will net you three VC hits and a Barbed Strangler hit a turn. Half of those won't do anything, and half of the ones that his (against front armor on a B. Wagon) will fail to do anything if they do hit. On average you would use three fexes to damage one, though you would have a 66% chance of that damage being a destroyed or better result.

If you went second they can now Waaagh your nids and wipe you there with hidden P. Fists. They can out outflank your stealers with Snikrot and flamers, and loota spam will soften Tyrants and fexes for hidden PK's to finish off. Even you S6 spitters will have trouble cracking enough Trukks to matter, and even if you do shoota boys will fire back with more shots, or slugga boys wil run and Waaagh! if they've been forced to go first.

EDIT: They focus fire to gain a KP for each one. On average even shoota boys, foot slogging mobs of 30, can put a wound and a half a turn on Orks and that is without any BS fire.

EDIT 2: How is mech Tau worse than playing Mech guard, Vulkan SM, Dual Lash, or Nob Bikers for Nids?

You're right about dual lash, never played it but looking at the list it looks nasty. Nob bikers die to S8 large blast templates, period. Just keep making them roll dice and the mans will fall down.

With the KFF, yes they will have a 4+ cover save emanating from two HQ choices BUT there are going to be models that aren't mechanized (I don't know of an ork player up here who plays all mechanized). Shoot a strangler at the center mob. Does it scatter? It still hits something because that mob is going to be surround by 12" of models in his deployment zone. Maybe you hit/glance a vehicle, maybe you catch another squad, regardless you hit something 4/5 times in my experience. Hidden P-fists are a problem only if they assault you. If you get a round of shooting off first you are (with fleshborers) hitting on a 4+, wounding on a 3+ with rerolls, and they ignore their armor save unless they happen to be next to the big mek. Not everyone rolls with two big meks either, people like their crazy war bosses.

The point of this is, yes there are lists that will knock down nids. I've not played one that specifically knocks down nids. Most games have been pretty even, to the point of almost drawing. The only exception was when a truck of burnas got through all the high strength fire to take out a brood of gaunts in one turn.

If you're not playing a a higher tournament level then you're not seeing what it takes to compete. Dual Lash, will destroy you as it lashes units out from cover being given by warriors, gaunts and into double tap plasma gun or flamer range for near instant death and/or triple powerfist assault. Against a T6 carnifex, you will take 4 wounds in the shooting and possibly take a PFist to the face as well, and your Gunfex will be hit for two wounds after dealing 0.277 of an unsaved wound back to the Oblits. Thus if played right current nidzilla will lose 2 MC's a turn to that and one more will take a wound from the other three Oblits using Lascannons.

Fully mech Orks, which are fast becoming the best choice, will laugh at you if your template's hole isn't over one of them, and with two KFF's or even one and the rest of the army using terrain or other vehicles for cover they will laugh as well. Even if that template is dead center on a trukk in cover you only have a to do 0.347 of a stunned, immobilized, or destroyed result (Weapon destroyed doesn't effect them much). So it will take you an entire Carnifexes shooting to have a better than 50/50 chance to slow down an orks ride.

New guard can have easily 2 dozen or more multi-laser shots, that is of course after they frustrate you by using a Russ and smoke to help screen their chims. After that your MC's will be soften by S6 lasers and long range pieplates before meltas finish them and you horde will simple have hull HF's eat them while five guard per chimera fire into them from the open top.

Vulkan, I don't know enough about to give good examples, but I know he brings TL multi-melta and TL flamers and heavy flamer to the table mounted on bikes and land speeders or in Rhinos and with +2/3++ assault termies with thunder hammers ready to chew your fexs and tyrants up at will.

I haven't even mentioned eldar jet councils and denial units that you won't catch in CC, or crusher weaver rushes yet either... So basically, if some mech tau are the worst you face, you just don't know enough to talk.

EDIT: And these list knock down a lot of things, not just nids so if you head to 'Ard Boyz you will see many of these in later rounds.

Skinnattittar wrote:I would just like to see more Tyranid players in general. Make that a rule;

Lord of the Hive Mind : More Tyranid players.

I would take a Tyranid army myself, but I already have Guard and SM. My next interest in armies is Ork. I don't need THREE high model count armies! Guard is bad enough, them and Orks is insane! Orks, Guard, AND Tyranids?! I only have two hands!!!

OOOH I just started a Nid army so your rule is already starting to work.

What sticks out to me as feasible fixes:
-Spore mines don't count for KP
-Glancing only removal from VC
-One to two point Hormagaunt cost reduction (maybe gain WoN at an optional cost)
-Biomorph clean up (obvious ones like Symbiote Rippers).
-Give the Elite Carnifexes their own Elites slot. My thinking is that you remove the 115pt (and 1500pt game) restrictions and replace with the stats of a standard Fex. The Elite fex would have access to maybe 3 weapon choices and a handfull of biomorphs. The Heavy Support Fex would automatically come with improved WS, 5 Wounds, Initiative of 2, and a 2+ save. Maybe start him around 120pts base. He would have access to more biomorphs than the Elite.
-Remove rending option from MCs Biomorph list.
-Genestealers keep points at current level, but gain Infiltrate and Scouts (may select one) and are reduced to WS5 and I5.
-Introduction of an alternate HQ choice. I'm thinking along the lines of a more Synapsed based Zoanthrope. Could have extended Synapse range, access to Tyrant Guard-like creatures. Acts as a powerful beacon to the Hive mind. Has an unlimited range Bombardment attack like the SM Chapter Master, or IG Master of Ordnance.
-Give Broodlord Fleet and Scout.

I think a lot of the Biomorphs can be either simplified or intergrated into several units automatically. The trend of reduced wargear options leads me to believe this and I think it will make it easier for others to understand the Tyranid options (if you don't own the book it's hard to memorize all of the options).

Lictor has Rending.

I think the Broodlord needs a HUGE price increase (being someone who plays against 'nids, not with them). A Character-show down with my Necron lord vs my mates broodlord, Lord is crushed to a pulp before it even attacks.

And they definitely need plastic Gargoyles. No-one uses them.

The Broodlord does not need a price increase. A souped-up version of the games best assault troops vs a generic character from the 2nd worst assaulting army... Any bets?

What the Broodlord needs is Fleet. As is it's a super stealer that slows it's Retinue down.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:The Broodlord does not need a price increase. A souped-up version of the games best assault troops vs a generic character from the 2nd worst assaulting army... Any bets?

I see your point there...

I think that the main reason that Nids need a rework is that with 5th and the advantages of playing Mech Armies, Nid players are forced into one specific build with lots of Monstrous Creatures. It would be fun both for Nid players as well as their opponents to see builds other than Nidzilla with lots of monsters. There are also other things in 5th that profoundly affected the balance of how some nid builds work and need rethinking. Anyway here are some of the best ideas that I found floating around:

Universal rules:
Fleet: Tyranids are fast. When they fleet or run roll 2 d6 and pick the highest.
Synapse Creatures: The Hive mind is one. All Synapse creatures can capture objectives.
Instinctive Behaviour: you do not choose whether to roll or not for leadership outside of synapse. If you are outside of synapse (but not in combat) you roll a d6: 1-3 fall back to nearest synapse creature (board edge if there are none left) 4-5 Lurk 6 Charge: move, fleet and charge to nearest enemy & unit gains Furious Charge.

Force Organisation

Only one from below if you have 2 HQ's
Walking Hive Tyrant - Ripper Swarms can capture objectives
Winged Hive Tyrant - Allows Gargoyles as troops.
Broodlord - Gives Genestealers Scuttlers as standard and his unit can come from the opponent's table edge (like the Ork Kommado special character)
Warriors - Gives gaunts scuttlers as standard (for no extra points so can still take WON)


Units

1. Lictor - clear up the DS into terrain. Flesh hooks means that you cant counter-pile-in when you get charged, enabling the lictor to charge the corner of a unit, kill a couple guys and get no return attacks back. Perhaps flesh hooks should only be available to the Lictor as an upgrade. Drop the points cost. Make him T5. Make him able to assign the wounds he deals.

2. Gaunts -
A. cheaper
B. Re-introduce the spike rifle.
C. As I said above, they need some sort of viable anti tank option. One of the ideas floating around was the weight of numbers attack. The mechanics is still sketchy, but idea is that the more gaunts you have assaulting a vehicle the easier it is to tear down. You could either have it that more gaunts make it easier to hit, easier to penetrate, or easier to damage. My preference is that based on the number of gaunts in the brood you get a + modifier on the vehicle damage chart that preserves to some extent the invulnerability of some vehicles to light infantry (the rear armour 10 on vehicles I am guessing is a designer indication of preference of how vulnerable to assault it should be).
D. Hormagaunts should just be gaunts with scything talons and leaping. No need for them to have a separate entry, just like we dont have a separate entry for Termagaunts - they are just fleshborer gaunts.

3. Carnifexes - maybe they could buy fleet as a biomorph? Perhaps the elite only, or the heavy only. Allow the Heavy ones access to a Feel No Pain biomorph or perhaps change Regenerate to FNP

4. Warriors - need a viable anti tank option. Perhaps remove the restriction that only 1 warrior can take a venom cannon per brood and allow venom cannon to be taken by as many warriors as are in the brood. A +1 str Venom Cannon warrior with scytals (no BS upgrade) costs 41 points. Lootas cost 15 points each. They would both be str 7 weapons, both 2 shots (lootas on average are 2), both BS 2, but Lootas can penetrate, VC cannot (atm). That still looks underwhelming as its power is not nearly triple the Lootas. Wings are too expensive. Warriors should be T5.

5. Biovores - Need a boost in leadership. Frag mines should be str 6, and toxin should ignore cover. Idea of a cryo mine is cool (if you get hit by it you lose your armour save for that turn. If its a vehicle armour reduced by -1)

6. Broodlord - needs fleet. Can give genestealers scuttlers as standard. Should be T6. The IG special character Iron Hand is virtually a broodlord for less points.

7. Spore Mines - should not count as Kill Points. Allow to take Mieotic Spore sacs.

8. Ripper swarms - can buy FNP

9. Tyrant Guard can also buy extended carapace.

10. Zoanthropes - you can combat squad them if you like. So in theory you can keep them as 1 unit and save on Kill Points. Decide on deployment.


Biomorphs/Weapons:
-Venom Cannon: Same as current but just -1 on Vehicle table (except open topped)
-Scything talons: grant +1 attacks, and allow any roll of 6 to hit to grant a second attacks. You cannot gain additional attacks off these extras or off of re-rolls (such as with feeder tendrils), only the first roll. A second pair grants an additional +1 attacks, and allows an extra attack on a roll of 5+, and allows the model to gain additional attacks off of re-rolled misses, but not off of the additional attack rolls.
-Rending Claws: as normal with 1 pair. 2 pair grants +1 attacks, and rends on a 5+. On Monstrous Creatures, or other models which already ignore armour saves (such as a Carnifex or Brood Lord), a succesful rend will deal an extra wound to a model with wounds, or grant +1 on the damage chart against a vehicle. This second effect is ONLY for models which already ignore armour saves equipped with rending claws.
-Crushing Claws: Each pair adds +1 to the vehicle damage chart or inflicts D3 wounds in close combat. (2 pairs would be +2 vs vehicles and each wound would cause D6 wounds).
Symbiote Rippers: Ignore 1 wound due to no retreat. Perhaps you can buy more than 1 symbiote.
-Bonesword: Reroll to hit both vs infantry as well as vs vehicles. Is also a Force Weapon.
-Bioplasma: Should be a template weapon. Perhaps on monstrous creatures should be st6 ap3.
-Tail weapons should work regardless of the # of enemies in base.
-Toxic Miasma should stack
-Spine banks are offensive grenades
-Thornback is defensive grenades.
-Acid Maw should work in all combat rounds, and should always glance a vehicle on a 6
-Lash whips should affect models attacking a lash whip tyranid, not just models in b2b.
-Perhaps introduce a poison biomorph that allows models to wound on a 4+

Psychich Powers

Warpfield: Grants a 2+ armour and a 5+ invulnerable
The Horror: Same as current but units in 12' lose fearless, stubborn and ATSKNF.
Shadow in the Warp: Same as current but you suffer Perils
Catalyst: Gives a brood within 24' +1 Attack for this turn

Man, am I ever glad I read this thread. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this stuff needs to be reworked pretty thoroughly.

3. Carnifexes - maybe they could buy fleet as a biomorph? Perhaps the elite only, or the heavy only. Allow the Heavy ones access to a Feel No Pain biomorph or perhaps change Regenerate to FNP
8. Ripper swarms - can buy FNP

While having FNP Carnifexes and Rippers would be awesome, it would also be absurdly broken unless you overcosted it (the upgrade and/or the unit, that is) to the point of making it useless. That's not going to happen. Fleet on Carnifexes seems a bit iffy given that they're freaking huge, but maybe as an upgrade on the cheap ones. I could see that.

Synapse being able to capture objectives is a stellar idea. In fact, it'd make a lot more sense to me if they made it so that only synapse creatures (and maybe Genestealers) could capture objectives.

Frag mines should be str 6

Not a chance in hell. Maybe give them back the big blast or something. That'd be okay, but jacking up the strength is not the answer. Biovores were ludicrously overpowered in 3rd edition with the S5 AP4 big blast. Let's not revisit that.

4. Warriors - need a viable anti tank option.

Urgh, seriously. I'd be okay with it if they just made venom cannons able to penetrate, but I agree that they should let you equip them on however many warriors you want. Still, that won't really solve Tyranids' vehicle woes. A bunch of S7 weapons does not a tank solution make. It'd be something against the ludicrous mech trend of late, I guess, but IG would still shred us like nobody's business.

Broodlord - needs fleet

A-freaking-men.

The Horror: Same as current but units in 12' lose fearless, stubborn and ATSKNF.

That makes a lot of sense to me.

Shadow in the Warp: Same as current but you suffer Perils

Ba-roken. That'd screw psykers like nobody's business.

Catalyst: Gives a brood within 24' +1 Attack for this turn

Hmmm...that sounds reasonable, but part of me thinks it'd be a bit overpowered for huge broods and for broods of Genestealers. Maybe make it only apply to gaunts?

9. Tyrant Guard can also buy extended carapace.

That'd be sweet, but it'd probably be a little too powerful unless it was expensive.

D. Hormagaunts should just be gaunts with scything talons and leaping. No need for them to have a separate entry, just like we dont have a separate entry for Termagaunts - they are just fleshborer gaunts.

I disagree. I like having the Hormagaunt as a package deal kind of thing, sort of like Gargoyles are. It lets you take a reasonably souped-up gaunt for a discount of a couple points.

Walking Hive Tyrant - Ripper Swarms can capture objectives

Meh. I like the synapse idea way better. Rippers are just big mouths, basically. I can't see them being very tactically inclined.

Broodlord - Gives Genestealers Scuttlers as standard and his unit can come from the opponent's table edge (like the Ork Kommado special character)
Warriors - Gives gaunts scuttlers as standard (for no extra points so can still take WON)

I really, really like these ideas fluff-wise, but functionally, I think having an army of outflanking WoN gaunts would be too powerful. Maybe not. I dunno. It would almost certainly be too abusable on the Broodlord's end, though. A Stealershock army would save hundreds of points (assuming current costs) by taking a Broodlord.

Other than that, I really like those ideas. I'm especially fond of the Lictor being able to select its victims and only attacking the stuff it charges a la 3rd edition. That would be way cool, and it would jive with what they're supposed to be for.

Seeing that the Trygon plastic model has been verified, and an assumed release date paired with the codex what to the other Nid players think of how that should be handled? I've read two of the trygon book entries one had Mass points, one didn't. Also one entry would let you deep strike into assault or assault from DS and others wouldn't. If i had to pick one i'd take the assault over the mass points.

One thing i think would be nice is if they added a " 0-1 Gargantuan Creature" You could take a trygon, either type of Hierodule( or make the hierodule modular like the Fex) or the Dominatrix(?). The Hierodules could use up a heavy slot while the trygon could be a fast option with the Dominatrix being a fourth HQ choice.

One way to "fix" or modify Synapse that i thought would be more flavorful would be to give each unit a different USR or bonus while in synapse and different IB when out of range. e.g. Genestealer - Synapse: counts as having Frag Grenades IB: none; Gaunt - Synapse: +1ws IB: Rage

Also i did some MathHammer and thought of this: 6 points Hormagaunts, 12 points Genestealers.
for the same points spent you get the same result vs the GW posterchild, MEQ.
12 Stealers - 144 pts
On the charge: 36 attacks vs WS 4 (3+) - 24 Hits
4S vs 4T (4+) - 12 wounds, 8 wounds + 4 rends

24 Hormagaunts - 144 pts
on the charge: 72 attacks vs WS 4 (4+) - 36 hits
3S vs 4T (5+) - 12 wounds

An alternative a friend suggested was making stealers a 18 point model but with flesh hooks and a 4+ save base model.

Those things aside i think the ideas i had were already brought up, brood lord needs fleet, etc.

Why not give them 9" move/assault range? This will re-establish 'Nids as being a Fast army, and allow Carnifex's to actually hunt tanks.

My main hope is that they do something to make "balanced" Tyranid lists competitive or at least worth playing. It's a shame to me that the only way you have a prayer of even securing a close loss against some of the harder lists is to field all the monstrous creatures you can get your hands on and spam Genestealers with whatever points you have left with some minimal Gaunt units for objectives. I want to be able to use Lictors. I want to use Rippers. I want Biovores. I want effective Gaunts, Warriors, and Raveners.

I'm not a power gamer, by any means, but it would be really nice to have an army that's, you know, good at something. Tyranids aren't fast any more, they can't shoot worth a crap (though the 2 twin-linked devourers on a Hive Tyrant and barbed stranglers on Carnifexes are, admittedly, very nice), and their bread-and-butter units - Warriors and Gaunts - are horrendously overpriced. Tyranids aren't really even all that wonderful at CC as a whole, despite Genestealers being wicked awesome...if they don't get blasted to hell before getting into combat.

Basically, I'm saying that I hope the new codex at least gives us some options. Even though everyone else runs mechanized armies, they still have a good deal of flexibility as far as what's going into their transports and how they support their transports. We've got...well, we have 2 Tyrants with Guard, 6 Carnifexes, and some Genestealers with a little deathspitter Warrior action. Always. And they're all armed almost identically in every army. That's a crime for what, on paper, is the most customizable force in the game. Too many of the units are either lacking that special something (Raveners need to be able to assault off of Deep Strike, damn it) or too expensive (Lictors, Rippers, Gaunts, Biovores, etc.) to allow for any variation in competitive armies. It's too bad, really. Here's hoping GW helps us out a little.

Damn, I have just read through the whole thread and am now read to say something to the tyranids myself. Sadly, as the codex is due to be out in February if you believe in the rumors suggested changes here won't have an impact.

Anyhow:

Synapse should boost the tyranids, no synapse should make them easy prey.

Units in synapse range gain:
- catalyst
- fearless
- furious charge

Units outside of synapse:
- Rage

Especially the low gaunts should be lead around by bait units if they are outside synapse. Also fewer units should be immune to the effects of synapse.
- so no hive node
- carnifex isn't fearless
- Tyranids aren't automatically immune to instant death

Guns
- Venom cannon: lose auto-glance, AP-
- Would be cool if the tyranid guns would be a stun-tool for vehicles and infantry alike to make the assault easier.
- Some weapons would still deal damage outright if you want your tranid army that way

Tyrant
- can use warp blast with BS 4

Broodlord
- gains fleet

Tyranid warriors
- get T5

Lictors
- during the shooting phase, you can place the lictor into a piece of terrain. act as normal after that
- lose fearless, gains stubborn
- gains fleet

Genestealer
- lower by 2 points
- lose the option for feeder tendrils
- scuttlers = 6 points

Gaunts:
It should be standard on these guys to be without number. Also add the option to give them scything talons for a basic melee gaunt.
- 3 points base.
- Scything talons +2 points
- WoN +2 Points
- 6+ save (anything more is too good and expensive)
- Ld lowered to 3

Hormagaunts:
Reduce to 7 points. If you make them too cheap, there's nothing that can stop these guys before tying up the enemy.
- WoN +2 points
- LD lowered to 3

Ravener
- I upped to 6
- attack after deep strike

Gargoyles
- lower b 2 points
- gain scout

Zoanthrope
- increases BS to 4
- reduces WS to 2
- lose the 0-1 restriction

Biovores
- I would love a bigger model similar to the carnifex (plastic update sprue)
- fire big templates

Carnifex
- can be given fleet for 10 points if no extended carapace is chosen
- lose fearless
- guns more expensive, so you cannot build those nasty elite carnifexes

That are my suggestions so far. + The Trygon of course.

Greets
Schepp himself

Why is it that if the codex is due out in February, that ideas here wont affect it? I thought that ideas and changes could still be implemented as late as Octobober or thereabouts.

IMO.. Synapse should be Fearless within 12 inches, LD 8 outside of 12 and Ld 5 without synapse on the board.. I also think it's pretty stupid to force guants to test at the start of every turn.. If they are going to keep that in the dex, they need to lower their cost.

I'd also say that synapse should act the same way as a beacon does for space marines.

The broodlord needs fleet.

Warriors should be T5 or 4+ sv base.

Fearless is a liability on Gaunts thanks to No Retreat. Synapse should grant you the option of auto-passing or auto-failing any test.

I also like the notion of synapse having multiple options (say the aforementioned morale option, an offensive option and a defensive option), but only one per unit per turn. Think of them as orders like in BFG. It'd be very fluffy and add some new tactical options.

I would personally like to see Raveners lok more like this:
Ravener: 27 points each
WS:4 BS:2 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:4 A:2 Ld:10 Sv:5+
All models in the brood must be either Voracious OR Vile.
Voracious
+1 WS, +1 I, Leaping, May Assault after deepstrike
V


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Crap. Didn't completely work. Stupid phone.


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OK. Trying this for the third time (on my PC now)
Raveners: 27 points each
WS:4 BS:2 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:4 A:2 Ld:10 Sv:5+
Brood Size: 3 to 9 models
All models in the Brood must be either Voracious OR Vile
Voracious:
+1 WS, +1 I, Leaping, May Assault the turn the unit Deepstrikes
Vile:
+1 BS, +1 S, Toxic Miasma, May only shoot the turn the unit Deepstrikes

Each model in the unit may be armed with 2 Weapon Symbiotes from the following lists. If two of the same ranged weapon are taken on one model, that weapon counts as Twin-Linked. If two different ranged weapons are taken on the same model, only one weapon may be fired per turn. One in every three Raveners may be armed with one Heavy Weapon Symbiote.
Weapon Symbiotes:
Scything Talons - 4 pts/pair
Rending Claws - 6 pts/pair
Spinefists - 6 pts/pair
Deathspitter - 6 pts
Devourer - 10 pts

Heavy Weapon Symbiotes: 1 in every 3 models may be armed with one of the following
Barbed Strangler - 10/15*
Venom Cannon - 15/20*
*The second number is the points cost for Vile Raveners

Special Rules: Burrowing
Burrowing - Raveners may enter play via the Deepstrike rules, even in mission when such rules are not present. In addition, instead of moving during their movement phase, the Brood may be placed back into reserves and enter via normal Deepstrike rules in subsequent turns.
Thoughts?

They'd be pretty horribly overcosted at those points values. I mean, you're neutering them pretty badly, and they'd still cost 35 points. You could get a comparable warrior (minus the deep strike, obviously) for ~20 points. Definitely a no-go on that. Personally, I think they should be left alone and be able to assault off of Deep Strike. That alone would fix them just fine. I like the idea of being able to Deep Strike them again, but it's not necessary. However, that rule would essentially give you a teleporting unit late in the game which is probably not the most balanced thing ever.

I don't see tyranids as that broken army in 5th edition. Only thing that needs changing in my opinion is..

1. Hormagants are overpriced maybe just 8 points
2. Lictor shouldn't need dangerous terrain or mishaps when entering the play
3. Raveners could be allowed to assault when getting in play with deepstrike
4. Sporemines giving out killpoints is just wrong. They're ammunition, not units.

Even without the "fixing" i still like tyranids and can win games with them without "nidzilla" list.

what I would love to see is a few more options for unit selection. I know there are a zillion ways to make each of the little crawlies but i would like a few different units so there are some actual choices rather than tyrant, warriors, gaunts, fex, thrope and the rare choice of some of the other units.

some more combat weapons for a combat based army having only about 5 weapons is not enough. Some form of unit with power weapon would be nice rather than having a monstrous creature or a broodlord.

and finally a way to reasonably kill a tank at range would be nice.

Another thought... If you take a Flyrant or Winged Warriors as HQ, you could take Gargoyles as Troops. I'd also like to see Rippers acting like Grots, clearing mines and making difficult terrain easier to traverse.

I've been playing bugs for a long time. I remember Spike Rifles slightly inconveniencing Blood Angels in games at my friend's parent's basement. These little voracious eating machines have always held my heart. So, of course, I want them to be kick-arse. But they shouldn't be over-balanced. Their background indicates high mutability. The new codicies have that whole HQ determines what the army comp will be like. Nidzilla is a viable option, but so should be an insane host of little crawlies. Tanks can become a problem with the little hoards; that doesn't mean I want rending Gaunts or melta weapons, but some sort of options like there was in 2nd ed. where there are cumulative bonuses for multiple hits would be nice. I dunno; I'm just rambling now.

I agree with everything said about reliable armour killing. Ultimately there is nothing in the codex that works reliably against them. And of course, we have no range to go with the paltry venom cannons.

There only seem to be a few lists that work nowadays. I've been running a stealer shock list that's been brutally effective. It consists of dakka warriors, dakka tyrant, stealers, boomfexes, lictors (to make sure they come in), and spinegaunts.

Then there's the absolute horde list, the zilla list, and maybe one or two variations that work. Basically none of them involve hormagaunts, warrior variants, venom cannons, biovores, raveners, or gargoyles.

That's a lot of the range that's useless because of (in large part) fearless saves. How good are 12 point hormagaunts that deal 6 wounds, take 9 in return, and then lose 3 more guys?

I just want to see point reductions across the board for the metal guys. If we're more than likely going to lose combat by a few wounds give us more guys... Thus making the whole army more fluffy.

Aight, my wish list:

1) Cheaper Lictors. 80 points for what it does is simply stupid. Or, give it a better armor save or something! hell, bump its toughness if you wanna keep it at a 5+ save -_-

2) Biovores. They need more types of mines.

3) Broodlord. Give him the ability to outflank as well. The fact he can't basically means he has to infiltrate, which is lame.

4) Zoanthropes. BOOST THEIR BS! Or give em twin linked or something... I would take a 10 point boost if I could finally hit something!

5) Hormagaunts and Gargoyles. Reduce their cost or make them better. As they are they are a waste of space.

6) Warriors. They seriously need a 4+ normal, 3+ with carapace save. The fact that 10 marines rapid firing into some warriors will almost always kill em is kinda sad for an "elite"

7) venom cannon. Either lower its strength and allow it to pen always, or give us a new gun that can pen.

Now reading thru the posts I gotta few things to add; they will never boost Gaunts/Horms armory saves. They are mean't to be like orks, disposible in large numbers, but so many of them they are hard to deal with. Synapse is a rule I really like, its honestly not a hindrance. Look at all the cool stuff it gives us! fearless, eternal warrior, thats pretty damn rad if you ask me.

I'll definitely agree with your #1, #5, #7.

I really don't like only having a 4+ save for warriors, but I think it would become unbalanced if they got a 3+. They've immune to instant death and have 2 wounds, which means the biggest weapons anyone can wield still can't kill them in one shot. I think that's makes only having a 4+ acceptable. Like you said, you just need to play them properly and keep them out of massed fire range.

keep them out of massed fire range

How exactly had you planned on doing that, again? Deathspitters only have a 24" range. I think a 3+ on warriors would be a bit much, but I can definitely see T5 and a 4+ save as standard (or super cheap upgrade - 1-2 points or something).

Broodlord. Give him the ability to outflank as well. The fact he can't basically means he has to infiltrate, which is lame.

Can't infiltrators outflank?

Either lower its strength and allow it to pen always

Lower its strength? Even for an army that's supposed to be weaker in the ranged department, a penetrating venom cannon isn't exactly a tank busting superstar.

or give us a new gun that can pen.

Yes, please.

Synapse is a rule I really like, its honestly not a hindrance. Look at all the cool stuff it gives us! fearless, eternal warrior, thats pretty damn rad if you ask me.

Synapse crushes gaunts in close combat. After they've charged, they're toast. Without weight of numbers giving you a giant advantage (lots more attacks due to tons of models charging), the other side is going to rock you. Gaunts are fragile and expendable, and being Fearless makes them doubly so in close quarters. Superficially, it doesn't seem like it matters so much that you lose 5 Gaunts if you kill 3 marines and still have 25 Gaunts in that unit rarin' to go. That's a pretty good round of combat, right? Unfortunately, you're going to lose another 5 Gaunts to being Fearless, and it'll just get worse after that. Awesome, right? Fearless also means that you can NEVER have anything else join combat with your Gaunts to support them if you don't want it taking a whole bunch of saves every turn for no real reason. Fearless is crap. It hamstrings Gaunt swarms like crazy, as if they weren't bad enough in 5th ed without that rule.

keep them out of massed fire range

How exactly had you planned on doing that, again? Deathspitters only have a 24" range. I think a 3+ on warriors would be a bit much, but I can definitely see T5 and a 4+ save as standard (or super cheap upgrade - 1-2 points or something).

Warriors having a 3+ isn't overpowered in the least (thats with enhanced carapace, I'm saying give em 4+ base). They still die really easy, but a round of bolter fire won't take em out as easily. They cost twice as much as a marine, I hate losing em to stupid junk.


Broodlord. Give him the ability to outflank as well. The fact he can't basically means he has to infiltrate, which is lame.

Can't infiltrators outflank?

I don't think infiltrate gives outflanking, I'll have to look it up.

Either lower its strength and allow it to pen always

Lower its strength? Even for an army that's supposed to be weaker in the ranged department, a penetrating venom cannon isn't exactly a tank busting superstar.

Venom Cannon isn't a superstar. Yeah, you need 4's to hit. But if it could pen itself it relegates Zoanthropes to near uselessness. I mean, if I could shoot 2 venom cannon shots a turn at str 10 and pen, why use a zoan who has to test, then hit, then roll to see if he does anything? We basically have a useless railgun atm thats only good at sitting around shaking landraiders or attempting to one shot HQ's

or give us a new gun that can pen.

Yes, please.

Synapse is a rule I really like, its honestly not a hindrance. Look at all the cool stuff it gives us! fearless, eternal warrior, thats pretty damn rad if you ask me.

Synapse crushes gaunts in close combat. After they've charged, they're toast. Without weight of numbers giving you a giant advantage (lots more attacks due to tons of models charging), the other side is going to rock you. Gaunts are fragile and expendable, and being Fearless makes them doubly so in close quarters. Superficially, it doesn't seem like it matters so much that you lose 5 Gaunts if you kill 3 marines and still have 25 Gaunts in that unit rarin' to go. That's a pretty good round of combat, right? Unfortunately, you're going to lose another 5 Gaunts to being Fearless, and it'll just get worse after that. Awesome, right? Fearless also means that you can NEVER have anything else join combat with your Gaunts to support them if you don't want it taking a whole bunch of saves every turn for no real reason. Fearless is crap. It hamstrings Gaunt swarms like crazy, as if they weren't bad enough in 5th ed without that rule.

Raveners are already beasts. Why add leaping when they already have it.

Raveners would be best off with lowering their cost several points and removing the weapon option (which isn't even represented on the models anyhow).

Venom Cannon isn't a superstar. Yeah, you need 4's to hit. But if it could pen itself it relegates Zoanthropes to near uselessness.

Zoanthropes are nearly useless anyway, so with a bit of a buff (better range, no required psychic test, no multiple KP's, etc.), they'd be a viable option since Carnifexes with venom cannons cost at least twice as much as Zoanthropes do.

I honestly just use my gaunts to tie up large things in CC (it takes C'thans 4-5 turns to knock out 32 gaunts typically, depending on his rolls) or just sit around on points.

Why wouldn't your opponent just misdirect and leave your Gaunts behind? I can see using them to tie up Wraithlords and Avatars and other Tyranid MC's, but that's where their usefulness as a stall stops. 160 points for a unit that might slow something down for 4 rounds of combat is not a good deal at all. That's another unit of Genestealers or another Carnifex - you know, something that might actually kill things. Gaunts are useful in small units with WoN for taking objectives, but that's pretty much it.

I REALLY like this idea. Having mutible Raveners fits fluff, makes sense, and makes them decent.

Raveners are already kinda mutable, but it might be nice to be able to change a few of their stats. Doing away with the shooting weapons would make me very happy. However, if they fix the crazy 2 of the same weapon=twin linked thing, it would be a lot of fun to DS a bunch of Raveners with 2 devourers each. Still, I'd settle for them keeping the same rules (except a decrease in Rending Claws' cost) and adding the ability to assault off DS. That would make them just fine or maybe even good.

I think that while running a Broodlord, one squad of genestealers should be allowed to come in on a side of the PLAYERS choosing.

Sounds like a party to me. It also makes a lot of sense, fluff-wise.

also: make the wings give the option to deepstrike

I really enjoyed the extreme, although kinda useless, mutability of 3rd ed. They got carried away with the whole "choose how many species you get = # of biomorphs per squad... etc" silliness. Make them simple upgrades. Make Wings turn you into Fast Attack. Get rid of the separate Gargoyle and make them gaunts + wings, yet able to take some nifty symbiote weapons. I want my brood beasts and Gun-beasts back (especially because I still have those models!). simplify, but bring back the mutability. Even poor choices (ie. tournament competitive) are fun for flavor and fluff!


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Also. I was flipping through the 2nd ed codex today. I forgot about the strangleweb gun. Man that thing was annoying... to my friend's Blood Angels.

I'd be fine if they left Gargs the same price but gave them their flamers back.

Seriously, though, I like having the pre-configured Gaunts. It's a nice excuse to have a slightly decked out Gaunt at a discounted price.

Infiltrators can outflank which does make Broodlords badass about 66% of the time when he comes in with his retinue of rending goodness on the right side.

A transport of some vein would be freaking awesome some special rules have it open topped and like a rhino equivalant cause it would be nice to get a stealer squad across the feild without getting shot up, I'm thinking like a beetle with a concave shell and maybe TL fleshborer on the front or a flamer weapon.

a bit more deep striking would be good because for an army that is supposed to rain down from space every single time they engage the enemy there isnt much raining.

a different mechanic to go along with flesh hooks than being able to scale impassible vertical terrain it is useless in all my experience i think something like a ranged mechanic might be cool and it would be more fluffy.

Lacross wrote:also: make the wings give the option to deepstrike

i agree

A minor point increase for 'zillas, and a points drop for gaunts of any kind. keep them fragile, and give them all without number.

Without number should be altered to let them come back to the board at any time after they've been destroyed, but only once, and wherever there's synapse.

I hope this will end point farming and keep the gaunts useful, while making zillas less of the primary force, and more of an auxiliary to the hordes.

In real terms, price drop on the gaunts so they can sell more.

I don't know much about 'nids, but that's my 2 cents.


Also, take a mini-nerf bat to shooting (except flamer and anti-tank style weapons) and give all non MCs fleet.

most people forget that WON is a "may" choice so there is no issue with points farming.
you could just send them in next turn.


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as much as i like Hormagaunts with WON....it seems OP


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whaat? nidz don't have flamers

Go far enough back and Biovores used to have a spore mine that did a flamer template instead of the small blasts, the scatter dice determined the template orientation with a hit letting you pick, it was nice.

Go further back, and Spinefists were flamers, that didn't set targets on fire (anyone remember "being on fire rules"?)
I agree that there will definitely be a points drop, just to sell models. I'm ok with that, if they make plastic gargoyles, and raveners. Frankly I've been slowly remodelling all my Nids to look like bigger and bigger Rippers (the old, metal, segmented worm with a gaping maw of teeth). I'd like to see plastic spore mines, in that clear, lutescent plastic so they look like jelly fish, and dragonfly wings for my gargys.


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Also. Barbed Strangler: stats as normal. Automatically causes pinning. Automatically glances, don't roll to penetrate.Venom Cannon: Stats as normal. CAN penetrate. If you want a nerf, -1 on damage tables.


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Heck, bring back the Strangleweb. Flame template, models hit roll =/under Strength or take a wound. Causes pinning.

Strangleweb in 40K would most likely be represented by a Poison Weapon To Wound roll rather than a Toughness Test.

Venom Cannons need improving. Major improving.

If anyone would have poisoned ranged weapons it would be the Nids. Heck make the VC be poisoned. Wouldn't really change the outcome, since most beasties using it are already high strength.
Does anyone know why GW changd the Nid codex so much between 3rd and 4th? 3rd ed codex was so very mutable, 4th felt restrictive when it came out...

Another thought (don't want to spoil the News and Rumors thread):

Why not bring out an update kit for the carnifex to make a biovore?
Update sprue would contain
- a new head
- arms that ram into the ground
- huge gun for the back

Change the stats for the Biovore a bit, for example:
WS1 BS3 S5 T6 W3 I1 A1 LD8
Additionally, make the spore sacks better and you have a nice heavy artillery unit.

Greets
Schepp himself

A Lictor... BLOR!!! wrote:If anyone would have poisoned ranged weapons it would be the Nids. Heck make the VC be poisoned. Wouldn't really change the outcome, since most beasties using it are already high strength.
Does anyone know why GW changd the Nid codex so much between 3rd and 4th? 3rd ed codex was so very mutable, 4th felt restrictive when it came out...

Sadly despite the range of options, only about two or three really saw use (Hive Node, Wings and Spinegaunts) so the whole thing was kind of a waste of time in the end.

I like the idea of having Tyranid Warriors be an upgrade to Tyranid units that are weak in leadership. You still have units of Warriors as HQ's and/or elites, but also allow Warriors to be an upgrade to Gaunts.

I have had some ideas about the next 'dex so let me know what you think of them

1. Genestealers with power weapons standard. I know what your thinking but crack open your Daemons Codex and look at the bloodletters entry. A unit that has all power weapons and eternal warrior for 16 points. Genestealers cost the exact same amount of points but have rending instead of power weapons and no eternal warrior. This would fit the fluff of them cracking open termies.

2.When a creature is under synapse they are fearless and never suffer no retreat wounds. Not sure if this would be a good Idea so shoot me down if you want.

3.Raveners as troops after an alteration of the FOC. with the trygon coming out you could field a totally subterraenean 'nid force.

4.No 0-1 restrictions on winged tyrants. Doesn't even need a description.

Just a few of my ideas.

Why not Bio-Plasma=Meltabombs?

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:Why not Bio-Plasma=Meltabombs?

Not that good change imo, because it would be very nasty for gargoyles and useless for Carnifexes and Tyrants.

But a high powered, short ranged shooting attack would be nice.
Maybe
12" SX AP2 melta, blast

Mh, but wouldn't work on stealers or gargoyles either...

Greets
Schepp himself

well, I'd like bio-plasma to be a template weapon

S(X+1) AP? template

(no AP?/ AP4?/AP3?/ AP(d6)?)

How about this weapon for warriors?

Bio-Acid Spray
Range:Template
Str :S (S+1?)
AP:3
Type:Assault 1
Special: Roll 2D6 +S for armor pen.

Basically a Bio-Acid mine in flamer form.
Priced at about the same as a Deathspitter/Barbed Strangler, it could make a decent addition to the Tyranid arsenal.

Zoats

/topic