Since this list has become quite popular out of nowhere, particularly on the top tables at Baltimore this year, it's a fair bet that nob bikers are going to be part of the meta-game for at least the immediate future.
The list tends to build itself once you set out to build a strong ork bike force. You immediately pick up that nobs are vastly more resilient than any other bike units, and with the ork mob rules you really benefit from taking as many as you can in a unit. With 2 wounds each, feel no pain, and 5th edition wound allocation shenanigans - the unit builds itself. When I saw other bike nob army players at the GT this year, the only question i had to ask was "How many klaws did you take per unit?" the rest is a given.

So, a common bike nob army list would have:
2 warbosses on bike, klaw, squig
2 x 10 nob bikes, painboy, WS5, bosspole, klaws and just enough wargear to make each model unique (though all combi-rokkits + ammo runt is a pretty wicked opening volley).
A gretchin/ork mob or two for scoring troops that can stay behind while the bikes venture forth.
This brings you to about 1500. At which point I personally settled on snikrot + kommandos since the natural defense against the bikes is to form a castle on the back edge. Snikrot serves as a good disruption tool against that.

The real strength of this army is that there isn't anything else like it in the game. They are fast, unbelievably resilient against shooting attacks under Str8, and they put out a decent amount of firepower at 18". Plus they are nobs led by a warboss, so getting assaulted is going to be ugly!

Basics:
Allocate all str8 and higher firepower first. If you score some minor wounds with small arms fire and then fire/swing the instant death attacks the canny ork player will allocate these wounds to the already wounded biker. Yes it's legal, don't hate the player - hate the game - and then fire your shots in the correct order next time.

Do not get discouraged when the first volleys are out, nobs are wounded, but none died. The wound allocation rules will have wounds going all over the unit before the first one drops, but once they start dropping the squad will deteriorate rapidly. Keep at it and don't give up.

So what do they fear?
#1 is that they cannot ever afford to lose an assault, so if you've got a way to get the drop on them, or bait them into a counter-chargeable position, then make whatever sacrifice is necessary. Remember that each nob-bike unit is ~750 points, so if you have to throw 300 points of models out there just as bait, don't feel bad about it! There aren't many units in the game that will survive a protracted combat with the bikes, so count on a one turn shock attack where you win combat by 3-6 wounds and run them off the board.
1a Setting up a favorable charge:
The two keys here are how many wounds can you put out, and how many wounds will you take back in doing so. Tilt the scale in your favor and make them run! Do bring in heavy hitters that can dish out Str8+ attacks to cause instant death wounds, but don't also bring a tarpit unit in with that heavy hitter unit. The nobs will clean out the tarpit to stay ahead on the wound count.
Good: 2 carnifexes
Bad: 2 carnifexes and 20 spinegaunts
Good: Ghazkrull alone with 2+ invulnerable for a turn
Bad: Ghazkrull + 19 boyz

1b Hooks and bait
Use the things they can hurt to draw them out, then use the things they cannot hurt easily to win the combats.
For instance: Draw them out with assault marines, beat them down with dreads.
Hooks:
Dreads
Terminators (esp. Thunderhammer + Stormshield yikes!)
Defilers
Oblits
Wraithlords
Soulgrinders
Bloodthirster
Either c'tan
Implant attack Tyrants
CC Fexes

Bait:
Everything else

#2 Leadership
Sure they are fearless at 11 when the boss is joined. But kill one model and they are now Ld10, 2 models and they're stuck at Ld9. If the boss leaves the unit they can go as low as 7! Pin checks, tank shocks, any break tests are your friend! Know the difference between leadership and morale checks. Bosspole only works on morale.
Tank shock them at Ld10, who cares? You only need to get lucky once against these guys.

#3 Terrain
All difficult terrain becomes dangerous to bikes. Put your vulnerabilities in some terrain and make them pay the wounds to come in there. Armor and feel no pain won't save them, and the wounds are done by model (not by unit) so they lose control over which models get pulled. Lashing bikes into terrain is awesome (test to go in, and a test to come out).

#4 Unit selections
See the above list for units that are effective at wrecking them in assault. As for shooting: look to units that can pin, can allocate multiple S8 wounds in a round of shooting, can pick their target model (monolith, telion, vindicare - go for the painboy!), single S10s, or Ap4 + ignore cover (heavy flamers, wind of chaos). Multishot medium strength (5-7) guns are good for getting wounds through attrition in there, but don't count on them winning the game for you. You've got an uphill battle if you aren't bypassing at least one of their defenses (toughness, 4+ cover, feel no pain).

Possibly more coming as I learn more about my own lists weaknesses.

Ablative defense. An army as small as the Nob Bikers cannot afford to lose a single model.

Marines, for example.

Tactical Squad
Tactical Squad
Tactical Squad
Ironclad Dreadnoughtx3

You can line them up your tacticals such that no matter how he arranges his Nobz, he can't get the charge on the 'Clads (and therefore fails, S8 versus AV13 is chock full of suck). You lose a unit of tacticals. He loses a whole unit of bikes to Ironclad counter assault.

You can create some variation of this theme with almost every army. Make the Nobz peel back one layer with every charge and your castle will beat them out through sheer bloody attrition.

The wound allocation rules will have wounds going all over the unit before the first one drops, but once they start dropping the squad will deteriorate rapidly. Keep at it and don't give up.

Clear this one up for me quick... Don't you have to pull full models when possible? Is the trick that wounds are allocated previous to where this kicks in?

Wounds are allocated to each set of models with unique gear. After wounds are allocated, failed saves that cause instant death remove whole models where possible.

So if you had two nobs that were equipped the same, and one was previously wounded - they take a lascannon hit. The unwounded nob would take the unsaved wound and die (whole model).
However, if the two nobs were equipped differently and one was wounded, you may allocated the lascannon to the previously wounded nob.

Grey Knight Terminators would do a number on them, especially with incinerators.

It seems like marines have too many answer for them:

Redeemers
Assault Termies
Dreads
Vindicators

They seem like they would chew through a horde ork army pretty well.

An Ork horde could be supported by some fast models with Skorchas, like Warbuggies and Deff Dreds. A Battlewagon with a Deff Rolla would also be funny.

Huh? The Horde is rarely supported by buggies, battlewagons, and Deff Dreds. They stuck too many points away from all the units that make it a Horde.

Besides, this isn't about the Green Tide, it's about Nob Bikers and countering them.

This is not an anti horde tactica. It's a 22 (threatening) model army that can and will table someone on turn 2 if they aren't being careful.

All terminators are good against them but grey knights are actually pretty low on that chain. The important thing here is dealing Str8 wounds and GK termies just don't do that.

Marines do have a lot of answers though, which is good for them. The trick is getting to use those answers on an opponent who is 4x faster than your models.

I beg to differ, Moz. Marines are one of the most able to do so because of their ability to shoot Orks to death if they're not willing to close into cc with the units that can punch them to death.

A line of Tacticals in front of Dreadnoughts seriously wrecks the Nobz Bikaz' day. Especially if you have 25% terrain coverage; it's almost impossible for them to go anywhere without eating those dangerous terrain tests.

The Bikaz are indeed a scary force, but even generic Marine lists should be able to handle themselves pretty well against them.

Traskel wrote:Grey Knight Terminators would do a number on them, especially with incinerators.

It seems like marines have too many answer for them:

Redeemers
Assault Termies
Dreads
Vindicators

They seem like they would chew through a horde ork army pretty well.

This isnt a horde we're talking about here.

its around 20 or so bikers give/take with warbosses on bikes. The rest of the army is made up of one or two infantry type units.

Grey Knights doing a job on them....not likely.

First off, 2 wound nobs could care less about incinerators, they have FnP and 2 wounds.

The only possible way to GET the charge is out of a LR, so lets assume the bikers do get caught....

Warboss will likely die to the Grand Masters force weapon, the other 4 Terminators have 12 attacks, only 6 will hit, 4 wounds, Bikers have a 5+ invuln thanx to Cybork Armour....3 wounds on nob bikers...not a single dead nob most likely, wounds will spread. FAIL.

Equip your Knights with Thunderhammers instead and you could have a few dead nobs due to instant death but the end result will probably be about the same, Knights cannot handle the punishment.

The new space marine terminators with t-hammers and a 3++ save? Probably a bit better, especially with lysander leading the charge to instant death the warboss (toughness 5 base remember, str 10 needed to smash him with a single hit). Lysander is prolly pretty much the bane of these bikers, with 4 wounds, EW, 3++, he's a good foil.

Another good unit to charge into them with after baiting them would be an evicerator'ed out celestian squad including cannoness/and preist. 10 str 8 (after faith) evicerator attacks with RR's to hit with some of which hitting on 3+ despite the Nobs WS. Kicking faith once again gives you invulnerable saves for some surviveability. (Imagifier and Litanies is key here) The problem here, is that the unit is fairly expensive. I've destroyed a biker unit with this before, but it left me with 2 sisters down, and standing out in the open ready for the OTHER unit to charge in and finish me off....this time with added attacks from a charge on their side with no rr's for myself.

The problem with countering Nob bikers, is that you might be able to come up with something thats going to clobber the unit no problem, however, unless you have two units that can do so, you shoot your wad and still are left with another 10 hard pipe hitters to somehow deal with....they just killed your trump card after they get left standing out in the open.

People dont generally bring two hefty close combat units that can deal with a biker nob army. If you do...thats your army, just like the Nob bikers themselves. Its not usually a good idea with other codexes though, anything you can bring will likely not be as versitile as the Nobs are.

Deadshane1 wrote:This isnt a horde we're talking about here.

I meant the bikes list would chew up a horde list.

sourclams wrote:I beg to differ, Moz. Marines are one of the most able to do so because of their ability to shoot Orks to death if they're not willing to close into cc with the units that can punch them to death.

A line of Tacticals in front of Dreadnoughts seriously wrecks the Nobz Bikaz' day. Especially if you have 25% terrain coverage; it's almost impossible for them to go anywhere without eating those dangerous terrain tests.

The Bikaz are indeed a scary force, but even generic Marine lists should be able to handle themselves pretty well against them.

Marines just standing there dont have a snowballs chance. Regardless of how you 'bait' the bikers. Any Nob Biker will tell you....

10 marines guarding a dread...no problem, bikers scoot around the side and charge the whole schebang...wiping them all out.

20/30/40+ marines guarding however many dreads, again, no problem. Bikers do a combined charge on ALL marines standing out in the open making for a hopeless combat that the marines cannot hope to do anything but run from. dreads may charge the bikes, then the OTHER biker unit comes in to save them.

5 power Klaws on Nobs is becoming industry standard. Thats 10 str 8 standing there after YOU charge THEM, 15 at 9 if they charge you. Nob Biker armies arent afraid of Dreads...not space marine ones. Lots of Kans? Scarier for them. Marines? Please.

What do you think about Bike Councils and Super Councils ('Locks, Yriel, Eldrad) against Nobs on Wheels? I knwo you said not to bring the tarpit unit, but I'm thinking this is one tarpit that might actually do well against the Nobs. I'm guessing the Bike Council will lose to attrition if they are not supported by Shining Spears, but the Super Council on foot seems like they have a good shot (Yriel and Eldrad's strong powerweapons plus all those witchblades). Do you think that's accurate?

Hmm- that's a fight I'd really like to test soon.

One thing that will work wonders and should emege as a popular build(im abit surprised it hasnt shown yet) should be the marines with landraiders and assult terminators with SS-TH.

I've found also that the bikes can really outshoot the marines as well if it's just tacticals guarding dreads.

One note for your deadshane, the nobs are base 3 attacks. 5 klaws is 15 (15!!) klaw attacks. Too many in my book, I feel that 2 in the squad + the warboss is adequate for most purposes. 3-5 might improve your odds against certain lists but will be overkill best spent elsewhere against most.

I also say that nob bikes are afraid of dreads on a countercharge, especially ironclads or venerables who are unlikely to die in return. Again it's not about wiping the bikes out to the last Nob, it's about winning a combat by 3 or more wounds and chasing them down. Dreads have a good wound dealt to wound received ratio.

If you play Daemons you have a good shot. Drop khornate units or Soul Grinders all around them. They can assault something, take a few wounds and kill it. You counter charge and wipe them out. To avoid this they have to start multi-charging, but that gets dicy real fast.

I've also seen Kairos take an 8 man Nob Biker squad w/1 warboss leading's charge and hold it, but that was probaby just good luck.

Council could probably do it if they get to countercharge in. Problem in a protracted engagement for the council is that both units are equally resilient, but the lynchpin of the council (Eldraad) is easier to pick out with a single klaw wound than the painboy is for the nobs. With eldraad gone it goes downhill in a hurry.

I think the best way to deal with the Ork biker mob is a unit of 10 terminators with storm sheilds and hammers. this will win every time and is good vs pretty much any army.

You may see me including this (although it would be GKTs... not as good) in the future for my sisters list.

ALSO, the best way to get wounds in would be Ordanance such as the orbital strike from pedro or any marine chapter master.

A single greater daemon of tzeentch or Slaanesh would give a mob a bit of trouble as would blood crushers

i think if I were to face this again I would try my best to double assault with 2 cannonness at the same time and pray I don't fail saves :p

Moz wrote:

One note for your deadshane, the nobs are base 3 attacks. 5 klaws is 15 (15!!) klaw attacks. Too many in my book, I feel that 2 in the squad + the warboss is adequate for most purposes. 3-5 might improve your odds against certain lists but will be overkill best spent elsewhere against most.

yup, my bad.

5 seems to be the winning number, since when biker nob goes up against biker nob (these armies actually hit each other this past weekend) he who has more Klaws wins. 5 is overkill, but not so much overkill that its costing you too much elsewhere. (the winning list had 5 Klaws per unit not including the Warboss' Klaw I do beleive.

Moz wrote:Council could probably do it if they get to countercharge in. Problem in a protracted engagement for the council is that both units are equally resilient, but the lynchpin of the council (Eldraad) is easier to pick out with a single klaw wound than the painboy is for the nobs. With eldraad gone it goes downhill in a hurry.

theblklotus and I talked about this the other day, and the key for the bikelocks is that the Farseer or Eldrad does not have to actually be attached to the unit. The farseer himself doesn't really help all that much in assault more than the regular 'locks anyway. As long as 10 fortuned bikelocks charge in, and the farseer is within 6" to cast doom and fortune, it should be a good shutdown.

The real problem comes from the eldar giving up more KP's then the ork army. To make the rest of the army moderately effective, the eldar army will likely be a few KP's more than the ork army, especially if we're talking about your army Moz.

Also, if you load the seers up with mindwar, (which why wouldn't you) you could easily pick off the painboyz since mindwar lets you select a model. That plus the painboyz abysmally low LD would spell almost certain doom for him. (But I don't have my books with me so I'm not sure if the painboy would get LD10 against the mindwar attack.)

Another problem that you touched on Moz but needs to be highlighted again, is that if there is a squishy squad in combat with the nobz, they nobz will wipe them out. With the new combat resolution rules, that means that all of those wounds will go towards the hole combat. Units that are Fearless of ATSKNF will suffer badly. That's why you need one RESILIENT unit to take the charge, and hopefully another unit that will finish the nobz off for good. (This is true of any CC unit that can deal alot of wounds in 5th, like a large squad of khorne berzerkers.)

For example, Nob bikers charge Ghaz + 30 boyz. The bikerz can basically throw all their attacks against the regular boyz, and then Ghazzie and the Boyz lose combat, so then have to take a pile of extra wounds for No Retreat. However, if Ghazzie is all by himself, he can Waagh, he will most likely take alot fewer wounds and less wounds (if any) from No Retreat. Hell with his S10 powerklaw, he may even win the combat. That is what Moz is saying.

yes, it did have 5 klaws in the mob when the boss is included.

In Nob on Nob action you need to manuever to double assault and kill that way, not go one on one.

frgsinwntr wrote:A single greater daemon of tzeentch or Slaanesh would give a mob a bit of trouble as would blood crushers

A big unit of Crushers does not do enough S8 wounds to really break the back of the nobz. Two units of 8 crushers would crush the nobz, but one unit would barely batter than I'm thinking. The same problem is true of the KoS and LoC. The Bloodthirster on the other hand, would be a bear, but a unit of nobz with 5 klaws would most likely take him out as well.

Deadshane1 wrote:
5 power Klaws on Nobs is becoming industry standard. Thats 10 str 8 standing there after YOU charge THEM, 15 at 9 if they charge you. Nob Biker armies arent afraid of Dreads...not space marine ones. Lots of Kans? Scarier for them. Marines? Please.

I'm going to have to politely disagree with you, as well. Ironclads (perhaps I should have been more specific) versus Power Klaws, even on the charge, wreck Nobz' day. I've done it, do it, will do it again. Honestly, it's kind of easy. Screening them with 10 tactical marines is also easy, doubly so with 20, and 30 just makes it stupid easy.

Well, my EC army could take on Nobz Bikers rather easily: DPs lash them to bunch them up and then Obliterators shoot them with plasma cannons.

I look forward to a nob bikes vs. daemons game someday, but I anticipate that the shooting of the bikes will be the key to neutralizing what they can't handle before the charges start.

I'll agree that more klaws is better, but unless it's bike nobs vs bike nobs it's rarely an issue. 10 bike nobs without any weapon upgrades will win combat vs. just about anything that isn't all swinging at Str8 or Armor 11+.

I think that the real key to the mirror match would be what else is in the list that causes one bike unit to have to yield the charge to the other. 2 x 2 squads of bikes can zoom around the board all day without ever needing to engage one another.

20 tac marines with an ironclad support? no way in hell does the ironclad "wreck the nobs day." they have what 3-4 attacks base? Nobs are gonna get off the charge...they dont vs the ironclad frankly the person playing the nob list is dumb then. So nobs charge the 20 marines and the ironclad. Nobs destroy them. Sure ironclad with 4 attacks (since i cant remember playing it safe) gets 2 hits and then MAYBE kills 2 since nobs still get 5+ invuln. In return 5 claws with a warboss with a claw can pretty much wipe out the units on their own. For example direct the warbosses 6 claw attacks (you took an attack squig right?=)) against the ironclad...OHHHH 6 attacks hitting on 3s penning on anything but a 2-3 on 2d6...yeah ironclad destroys bikers...... then the 5 claw bikers tear the spacemarine squads a new one...and this is even discounting the attacks from the remaining non claw bikers. 5 claw bikers then get 20 attacks on the charge. even half hitting, and being generous and saying only 7-8 wound that is still almost a whole tac squad gone. In the meantime your two squads of marines are doing dink with their normal attacks since 4+/4+ is hard to get through. the 4 powerfist attacks from the sergeants? 2 hits and again MAYBE 2 dead orks max. So at the end of the day the biker squad has now destroyed your ironclad and pretty much killed off one squad out of the 2 present. Marines rule!!!

Yeah except that's really not how it works. Try it. Like, in a game. Also, take your ritalin. It helps your typing skills.

It's also not at all a given that the Nobz are guaranteed to get the charge versus the Ironclads. Screening tacticals, for example.

Please don't just speculate wildly, it doesn't help anyone. Far too much "It's easy just X" on dakka.

If you base the S10 warboss klaw to the ironclad, congrats on just losing your warboss at initiative 4 to the S10 ironclad.

If the nob biker throws away a 750pt squad to kill 2 tac units and an ironclad, he's lost anyways.

The concept here is that the marines surround the clads so the clads can't be charged anyways (hence the screen). The problem in my assessment of this situation is that X points of marines is less survivable than X points of Bike nobs in a shooting exchange. Unless there is a real shooting threat to the nobs that they can't handle with their own shooting (demolisher, dev squads behind a wall of marines + dreads) then the bikes will just sit at 18" and remove tac units until the marine player doesn't have a screen anymore.

Which is a very realistic assessment of the tactical situation, Moz. In fact, in that scenario I would indeed be far more worried about Nob shooting than Nob assaulting for the reason that you stated.

The issue then is usually that the Marines are almost guaranteed to have *something* capable of insta deathing the Nobz through shooting, whether it's multi meltas, missiles, or las.

The marine player will need to outshoot the Bikers and that is were the 120pt 3 attack bike unit comes into play. The AB's can dance around the Iron Clads and fire 3 heavy bolters at the Bikers. Sure the damage will be slow, but it should beat the return fire of the Orks. Now the bikes have to engage the marines to avoid the AB's and the Iron Clads can clean up. The AB's are not static and can chase the Bikers around the board. They can also avoid any Snikrot units.

Abbaddon would be awesome against this unit however as was said above, once he is out the other Biker unit will have the table to themselves.

sourclams wrote:Yeah except that's really not how it works. Try it. Like, in a game. Also, take your ritalin. It helps your typing skills.

It's also not at all a given that the Nobz are guaranteed to get the charge versus the Ironclads. Screening tacticals, for example.

Unfortunately, there are two units of bikers. If the tac marines are spread out, a feint multi charge against all the tac marines pulls them all out of screening (due to "pile-in" before combat starts) leaving the other squad of bikes able to multi-charge the Ironclads, or just zoom past them to charge whatever is behind. The warboss is at risk of getting S10'd though, and in this scenario, he may benefit from an Uge choppa (all the nobz would truth be told) as well as his Klaw.

I beat 1 unit in the gt with sustained firepower over 1 turn of tyranid shooting with vcannons and stranglers, and then assaulted it with stealers for tie up and then shot it after I broke out of combat with the 2nd squad

the 2nd squad fought an implant tyrant with guard and 3 fexes, and I just barely beat that one. I broke combat just in time to turn at the remaining 3 nob bikers in the 1st squad and level them with the remaining tyrant and 2 fexes.

I wouldn't say that was the way to beat this army, but I can definitely see some more value in cc nidzilla after this last gt.

checks stockpile of fexes for 6 cc monsterous creatures, CHECK!

Apparently noone at the GT was up to the challenge of taking on Nob Bikers with Basic Marines, much less ones that just stand there and shoot. I dont remember any stories of 'tough' battles against basic marines and I roomed with two of the guys playing them, including the winning list.

Nob bikers dont care much about marine shooting, not with the cover saves availiable.

I doubt a properly run BikerNob army cares much about any shooting that a Marine army can bring. Specially since the last game of the winning list during the tournement was a SAFH Dark eldar list with PLENTY of instant death shooting.

....marine instant death shooting doesnt compare to that.

The dark eldar was beat pretty soundly as far as I remember.

By the way, one good peice of news....(or irrelevant depending on your tastes)

Apparently the BikerNob list doesnt scale well at all at 'Ard Boyz level.

Obviously, two units of Nobs arent all they're cracked up to be when facing off against that many points of shooting/hordes/armour 14 or even raw non power weapon attacks. (I saw a full biker nob unit and warboss sent packing by an ork charge of over 100 attacks not including claw attacks)

So, on topic for the post as a whole, thats one thing you can do....play bigger games.

A 600+ point investment of Warboss and 9/10 Nobs means a lot more in a 1750 pt game than it does in a 2500 pt game.

yes it does... but at 2500 you can see a possible 40 nob bikers...

I would have to say the only way to really beat the nob bikers is to out perform them in the assault... where they are good. Shooting them will NOT help you

frgsinwntr wrote:yes it does... but at 2500 you can see a possible 40 nob bikers...

Thats a lot of expensive conversions. Or non wysiwyg models.

Deadshane1 wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:yes it does... but at 2500 you can see a possible 40 nob bikers...

Thats a lot of expensive conversions. Or non wysiwyg models.

Don't put it past me. I loved every minute of making my Kroot Nob armada.

I would have to say the only way to really beat the nob bikers is to out perform them in the assault... where they are good. Shooting them will NOT help you

I agree. Of course I do play deathwing (which give me a slight advantage) so once I get in close with those powerfist those nob bikers began falling like flys. When I played them I tryed to outshoot them but they just would stay back and take the saves. So I drew them in and assaulted them. This worked very well. The only problem is if they figure out a way to stay out of assault then your SOL. With space marine a LRC with 8 Thunder Hammer Storm Shield terminators should do the trick. I think for any space marine player the key to beating them will be to get big squad or mutiple squads of terminators into CC with them.

I didn't notice if anyone else mentioned it but... thunderfire cannons with tremor shots. They force the unit to move as if in difficult terrain and force them to take dangerous terrain tests. This will slow the nobz AND force them to test without the benefitof their toughness and saveS.

I have been thing a lot about thundefire cannons.... a whole lot.

ender502

Bikes aren't slowed by difficult terrain, but the dangerous terrain checks are killer!

On the 'Ardboyz thing:

The 'Ardboyz winner was rolling Kairos + big units of Bloodcrushers, right? That'll laugh at a Nob Biker squad. If the Bikers assault the whole cloud they just lose, and if they don't assault it all whatever portion is unassaulted counter-charges for the win.

On basic marines vs. Nobs:

What about just going Mech? You drive up in a flotilla of rhinos, lined up so they can't surround any one of them completely. They assault, pop a few squads out, you counter-charge with EVERYONE and all fall down? Then you win because whatever combat squads you've got left are > than their grot units.

I'm thinking of running 3 LR Deathwing at Adepticon. It seems like it would have a decent chance vs. this list (and still not do too bad vs. other lists).

What do you think, could a pure termie/LR force give the Nobs a run for their money?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

No question. Multiple LR + Termies will make it look easy.

I haven't played nob bikers but I've played the 1 wound version.

Basically my LR pretty much stop him from outmanuvering me. Also moving 12" is great!

A shooty squad (inq Lord) was a decoy for the bikers allowing me to deal with them lata-game.

Flame Templates are great (incinerator was ace!)

Also another trick I found was to make a wall of Terminators forcing him to either attack them or go round them and force at least 2 difficult terrain tests between 2 turns.

Also they don't have grenades? So mhm using cover would be good.
Suprisingly I havn't seen anyone mention the buildings....

The basic tactic I would use is to eliminate the fastest unit, If I found their manuverability and threat was high, with concentration of fire.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/221211.page

Bikers can't get to any level except the bottom level of a building meaning they will be left pulling wheelys outside your backdoor while you shoot em off their bikes... So put your objective on the 2nd floor (remember they measure from their heads instead of their base with vertical objectives so parking underneath could contest a level 1 objective)

And yh I had 2 LR's... but then again only 2 troop choice.

Moz wrote:No question. Multiple LR + Termies will make it look easy.

This army is looking more and more tempting for me to take to Adepticon. I think so many people will be kitted out to beat Hordes and cover saves that my LR's and Scoring Termies will be extremely hard to take down.

And I'd only have to paint 20 models!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I agree. That is why I am had planned on doing the same thing except I would only have 2 LRC and 5 Squads of terminators.

storm knight wrote:I haven't played nob bikers but I've played the 1 wound version.

Basically my LR pretty much stop him from outmanuvering me. Also moving 12" is great!

A shooty squad (inq Lord) was a decoy for the bikers allowing me to deal with them lata-game.

Flame Templates are great (incinerator was ace!)

Also another trick I found was to make a wall of Terminators forcing him to either attack them or go round them and force at least 2 difficult terrain tests between 2 turns.

Also they don't have grenades? So mhm using cover would be good.
Suprisingly I havn't seen anyone mention the buildings....

The basic tactic I would use is to eliminate the fastest unit, If I found their manuverability and threat was high, with concentration of fire.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/221211.page

Bikers can't get to any level except the bottom level of a building meaning they will be left pulling wheelys outside your backdoor while you shoot em off their bikes... So put your objective on the 2nd floor (remember they measure from their heads instead of their base with vertical objectives so parking underneath could contest a level 1 objective)

And yh I had 2 LR's... but then again only 2 troop choice.

hmm interesting... where is the rule that says they can't go up a floor?

PAGE 83
"MOVING WITHIN RUINS"

bikers can only be on the ground floor of a ruin

If you have enough upstairs, the ork nob bikers can never assault you

They can sure shoot ya though, with a crapton of dakkaguns.

Thats interesting. You could technically put your objective on a building and never have to worry about the enemy trying to take it.

works against dark angels ravenwing as well

Deadshane1 wrote:
So, on topic for the post as a whole, thats one thing you can do....play bigger games.

A 600+ point investment of Warboss and 9/10 Nobs means a lot more in a 1750 pt game than it does in a 2500 pt game.

I have found this to be the case with almost all armies in 5th.

Since Min/maxing has such a large drawback in Kill Points, the best armies tend to use units that are really expensive and resilient (Land Raiders, Bloodcrushers, Nob Bikers, Hive Tyrand and Carnifexes, etc.). There is almost no thought given to the Force Organization Chart since folks hit the points limit on the game before they run out of slots. Running a higher point game means that the FOC once again begins to limit an army.

I've gotten to the point that I think anything less than 2000 points doesn't really need to worry about the FOC and is much less balance. I've had good success with balance at the Ard Boyz limit of 2500 as well.

Someone brought up the fact that someone could run 40 Nob bikers at a high enough points level. That is true, but the real threat here isn't just the Nob Bikers, its the T5 Ld10 warboss running with them. Remove that, and a few str8 shots can make the Nob run right off the table.

Wow, that buildings thing is pretty nasty. Even my jetbikes will have to watch out for that. Lame.

What about multiple units of banshees vs. a single (Doomed) Nob unit? I'm considering Biel-Tan as an expansion of my mech army, as I'm getting bored with flying around shooting for 3+ turns. 36-54 S3 plus 6-8 S7 PW attacks with re-rolls to wound won't do it, will it? I also worry about getting shot up first once the Banshees get out, if the Nobs fake in and then stand off for a turn or two to shoot. Do you think BLs on all the (5+) Serpents plus a couple Prisms could make playing dodge 'em less appealing to the Nobs?

Jetbikes can change levels, just ground-bikes are stuck.

can you actually put objectives on different levels other than the ground level though? I'll have to go look that up to see if its a valid "defense".

Might have to start modeling the bikers with a Contestin' Pole if this catches on. Just a big stick that goes up 3" or so to contest objectives on higher levels.

Moz wrote:Might have to start modeling the bikers with a Contestin' Pole if this catches on. Just a big stick that goes up 3" or so to contest objectives on higher levels.

May have to model my sisters with a "contestin pole scissors" ;p

Moz wrote:Might have to start modeling the bikers with a Contestin' Pole if this catches on. Just a big stick that goes up 3" or so to contest objectives on higher levels.

A shame that you measure from a model's base.

Democratus wrote:

Moz wrote:Might have to start modeling the bikers with a Contestin' Pole if this catches on. Just a big stick that goes up 3" or so to contest objectives on higher levels.

A shame that you measure from a model's base.

acutally it's the models itself when measuring vertically, also a contestin pole would be against the ture LOS rules right?

Just the concept of a contestin' pole... Legality, morality, whatever aside. Love it.

Moz wrote:Just the concept of a contestin' pole... Legality, morality, whatever aside. Love it.

My contestin' pole is bigger...wanna measure?

Do people not usually take the cybork bodies on the nobz/nob bikers? Seems like those invuln saves would really buff them not to lose combats against the stuff that can beat them. My trukker nobz always take them.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, my EC army could take on Nobz Bikers rather easily: DPs lash them to bunch them up and then Obliterators shoot them with plasma cannons.

With all due respect, the size of the biker bases coupled with the 3+ cover save they'd have and the fact that those shots don't cause instant death, means that your technique would have a lower yield than you'd realize. Not speculation, I play with nob bikers and 2 of my regulars play obliterators.

My chaos friends are sneaking defilers back into their lists as an answer.

Nob bikers aren't so bad if you have...
soul grinder/defiler/leman russ in multiples.

I have started playing a few fun games with my guard army again. No dropping no infiltrating, but using the new "inquisitorial chimeras" in place of the regular codex chimera. Nob bikers need to be aware of how trashed they are when playing against guard. I played with 3x leman russes, 6x lascannons, 3x chimeras filled with 3x4 meltas, and 3x hellhounds. Not a popular list yet, but come May, its going to be all over the place. 3 battle cannons 6 lascannons and about 8 meltas at a time into nobs is game over. Orks are going to have to dial back on the "all in" attitude for nob bikers when the IG book hits.

If you don't have strength 8 pie... Just unload high strength shots into them, Moz had a great point to remember, on turn 1, you are going to dump your whole army into a unit. And its going to lose like 1 model. Don't worry... Next turn a bunch of wound allocation could mean him losing his painboy, or both his claws, or just have a bad run and lose 5 or 6 guys off of 9-10 saves. Once they have declared a charge, they aren't going to have that 3+ cover on your turn, so your output will increase. Get that first unit off the table asap, and the ork player will have lost a lot of board control. He's only going to have 4 turns to make his points back and just 1 unit to do it with.

I usually subscribe to the "kill one nob biker unit, then kill grots" philosophy. He'll have one slow scoring unit that'll be anchored to an objective, and his remaining nob biker unit will have to try and kill your units off that are dispersed and being difficult, while at the same time needing to be free to score objectives as early as turn 5.

More on this later, back to work :(

Shep wrote:
I usually subscribe to the "kill one nob biker unit, then kill grots" philosophy. He'll have one slow scoring unit that'll be anchored to an objective, and his remaining nob biker unit will have to try and kill your units off that are dispersed and being difficult, while at the same time needing to be free to score objectives as early as turn 5.

This makes a ton of sense to me.

Can we meld in some discussion of optimal all-comers equipped nob biker units?
ie. any other opinions on the number of PKs? It seems 4 + WB w\PK seems popular.
What about 'Uge Choppas, combi rokkits and burnas?

I was thinking of loading up several combi rokkits with loadin runts. 6 Nobs with that would average out about 4 rokkit hits. Is 4 rokkits connecting worth the +60 points?
burnas got any worth, or what about ammo runts to use with the dakka dakka guns?
Eavy armor seems to be a no no, but Cybork a yes yes.
How many go bare bones and use choppa + slugga? Maybe mix in some 'Eavy Armor just to make each nob unique?

this is like literally the only list that is motivating me to re-start playing 40k, as I love the low numbers, and tons of converting!

Both Eavy armour AND Cybork are yes yes....every time.

combi-scorchas are extremely useful in the unit. 2-3 per unit is a good number to use in order to seperate nobs into seperate wound taking groups.

um, you don't need eavy armour as the bikes come up with a 4+ save and a 4+ cover save.

but yes, cybork is always on there.

budro wrote:um, you don't need eavy armour as the bikes come up with a 4+ save and a 4+ cover save.

but yes, cybork is always on there.

good call, my bad, I dont have the codex with me....I just knew they have a 4+ save.

Warbike gives you a 4+ armor save, so heavy armor is a waste.
Cybork 5+ invuln is good for the mirror match, but I get by fine without otherwise. If you're taking that 5+ invuln (against a fist or powerweapon), you're not taking your Feel no pain and you're already waaaay down on the resilience curve from your normal 4+/4+. I found that with a 5+, they don't get any better at doing what they do and can't do, but you might get tempted to stretch their limits and get burned when you can't pull off enough 5+ saves.

My advice is to buy 120 points of something else useful and just avoid situations where you feel you need the cybork body.

Combi-weapons are your unique-model bread and butter. Just remember that a combi-rokkit/skorcha does not get the 2 weapon bonus in closecombat, even though you still have a choppa. I've already seen plenty of people confused about that with Nobs.

'Eavy armour is redundant because they're on bikes.

I think this is about the best you can make a nob bike squad and it's what people will have to look out for on the battlefield:


10 nob bikers 716 points
Painboy w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, grot orderly
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, power klaw, bosspole
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, power klaw, waaagh! banner
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, power klaw, skorcha kombi-weapon
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, power klaw
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, skorcha kombi-weapon, big choppa
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, skorcha kombi-weapon,
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, rokkit kombi-weapon, big choppa
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, rokkit kombi-weapon, big choppa, ammo runt
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, rokkit kombi-weapon, ammo runt

As you will no doubt notice, every single model is different so this squad can soak up 10 wounds before it even loses a model (more with a Warboss).

Winning army had Cybork Armour.

Cybork armour makes you resiliant against things that FnP will not work against.

Combi-weapons go onto PK nobs.....they dont get a bonus anyway.

Gorilla Serialist wrote:'Eavy armour is redundant because they're on bikes.

I think this is about the best you can make a nob bike squad and it's what people will have to look out for on the battlefield:


10 nob bikers 716 points
Painboy w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, grot orderly
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, power klaw, bosspole
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, power klaw, waaagh! banner
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, power klaw, skorcha kombi-weapon
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, power klaw
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, skorcha kombi-weapon, big choppa
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, skorcha kombi-weapon,
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, rokkit kombi-weapon, big choppa
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, rokkit kombi-weapon, big choppa, ammo runt
Nob w/ bike, cybork body, stikkbombz, rokkit kombi-weapon, ammo runt

As you will no doubt notice, every single model is different so this squad can soak up 10 wounds before it even loses a model (more with a Warboss).

How effective are those skorchas? It would seem you could take the boldened\underlined Nob in the quote, and give him a Rokkit instead... maybe add an ammo runt + another banner

here's my more conservative pass for a max unit (i don't think max units are necessary either)

warboss/cybork body/attack squig/power klaw/bike

nob/bike/painboy
nob/bike/bosspole
nob/bike/waaagh banner
nob/bike/power klaw
nob/bike/power klaw/kombi-skorcha
nob/bike/power klaw/kombi-rokkit
nob/bike/huge choppa
nob/bike/huge choppa/kombi-skorcha
nob/bike/huge choppa/kombi-rokkit
nob/bike

I don't have my book handy, but i bet that is a bit cheaper, if you wanted to see something on the other end of the spectrum.

Deadshane1 wrote:Winning army had Cybork Armour.

Cybork armour makes you resiliant against things that FnP will not work against.

Combi-weapons go onto PK nobs.....they dont get a bonus anyway.

First up, what Neil took is pretty irrelevant. I took best general with no cybork (and 2 klaws per unit) and at no point in any of my games would I have garnered any benefit from it at all. If you are taking cybork saves in enough volume for them to matter, you are losing. It would be relevant if the cybork armor did 120 points or more worth of work in (most) of his games. If I had the points to spare I'd honestly get all combi-rokkits and ammorunts before I got cybork. A nice big rokkit salvo is great for opening rhinos, dropping an MC, or baiting the mirror match opponent out of hiding.

And combi-weapons have to go on non-klaw units in order to differentiate the unit. Bear in mind that the bosspole usually goes on a klaw due to its value.

My units were as cheap as they come with (11 models w/boss - fearless is very important vs. tankshocks!) still being all unique:
1 Nothing
2 Skorcha
3 Rokkit
4 Rokkit Ammo Runt
5 Big Choppa
6 Big Choppa Rokkit
7 Big Choppa Waaagh banner
8 Klaw
9 Klaw Bosspole
Painboy

Moz wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Winning army had Cybork Armour.

Cybork armour makes you resiliant against things that FnP will not work against.

Combi-weapons go onto PK nobs.....they dont get a bonus anyway.

First up, what Neil took is pretty irrelevant. I took best general with no cybork (and 2 klaws per unit) and at no point in any of my games would I have garnered any benefit from it at all. If you are taking cybork saves in enough volume for them to matter, you are losing. It would be relevant if the cybork armor did 120 points or more worth of work in (most) of his games. If I had the points to spare I'd honestly get all combi-rokkits and ammorunts before I got cybork. A nice big rokkit salvo is great for opening rhinos, dropping an MC, or baiting the mirror match opponent out of hiding.

And combi-weapons have to go on non-klaw units in order to differentiate the unit. Bear in mind that the bosspole usually goes on a klaw due to its value.

My units were as cheap as they come with (11 models w/boss - fearless is very important vs. tankshocks!) still being all unique:
1 Nothing
2 Skorcha
3 Rokkit
4 Rokkit Ammo Runt
5 Big Choppa
6 Big Choppa Rokkit
7 Big Choppa Waaagh banner
8 Klaw
9 Klaw Bosspole
Painboy

Considering that this is a tournement list and the secrets out...easy to build (listwise) army for success...these are gonna be all over next year. I tend to think that 5 powerklaws over your two would be telling when coupled with Cybork armour.

You with 2 Klaws no Cybork...
Enemy with 4/5 claws with Cybork...

I wonder who's taking more instant death hits?

I tend to disagree with you, no offense. Especially when the extra klaws were put into a list specifically FOR other Nob Biker lists...and it worked.

Moz wrote:
And combi-weapons have to go on non-klaw units in order to differentiate the unit. Bear in mind that the bosspole usually goes on a klaw due to its value.

so.. 2 nobs

1 rokkit
2 rokkit + PK

aren't differentiated?

Except that one unit is significantly more expensive, so one example have quiet alot more points to spend on other things.

I dont love the cybork bodies either, but think 2 Klaws might be a little thin esp. against other powerhouse units.

...and those "other things" in the ork list that you would be picking up instead of more klaws and cybork armour are largely inconsequential.

more boys....that wont hurt the biker nobs at T5 4+ with FnP
lootaz...same story 3+cover and 4+ Fnp before charge
Gretchin...hah!
other things that shoot....
other things that think they can out assault biker nobs....

The whole key behind the biker nob theory is that they're too big and bad for anything else in a 1750 pt army to really deal with, the only other army that has two hard pipe hitting squads like this right now is....another bikernob army.

Sorry if its been covered I've only read the first page..But how would DW termies get on vs them? If they have claws and or TH//SS?
Go easy tho its my first day

Ozymandias wrote:I'm thinking of running 3 LR Deathwing at Adepticon. It seems like it would have a decent chance vs. this list (and still not do too bad vs. other lists).

What do you think, could a pure termie/LR force give the Nobs a run for their money?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Moz wrote:No question. Multiple LR + Termies will make it look easy.

Because you're new.

This is your last one though, don't be askin for any more favors.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

EEEK
I'll change my name to Major-Blunder
I'll try for some redemption
http://www.coolminiornot.com/201582 Check out this Amazing looking DW army..
I'm guessing it comes in at 1750 points but belial seems to be kitted out strange. It looks like a shield and sword. Loving the tech marine tho!

I've never heard of 750 pt units in 40k. I'd probably try a few carnifexes and counter charge with genestealers. Would that not work? One fex and a gaunt unit dies from the mob, then counter charge with 2 more fexes and genestealers. Genestealers let the fexes reroll misses to hit so you have 10 s9 attacks that get to re-roll hits. That's a lot of dead bikers and they all strike before the power claws. Not to mention what the genestealers might do against them (although it wouldn't be as bad as the fexes).

Isn't it from there the bikers fire off a round of rokkits, and dakka dakka's? What is it, like 3-4 rokkits, and about 21 twin linked dakka dakka shots? or just pure 30+ dakka dakka for lil beasties... since I imagine the owner of the said Warboss nob unit dont want to waste their deadly charge on a crappy carni and tiny runner turdanids.
The whole Nobs will charge this and I will just counter charge with that argument that has been going on in this thread makes me worried about what to spend on extra points more than anything since you'd be running 2 power house Nob units, obviously you'll be on the look out for a "baiting" unit. Isn't that when things get tough?

J2FcM wrote: How effective are those skorchas? It would seem you could take the boldened\underlined Nob in the quote, and give him a Rokkit instead... maybe add an ammo runt + another banner

Having a few skorchas around to kill off pesky speed bump units (or make them run) so you can get at the juicier stuff is pretty handy. The rokkits are really just there to make 'em all unique. Even with an ammo runt it's almost a waste of points in my opinion. Adding in a redundant banner just in case the other one dies is a really good idea though so maybe a rokkit nob should be replaced. Same with a second bosspole. This unit Must Not Run.

Getting back to how to kill these things...

The more you know about your enemy the better you can defeat them I guess. One thing you can do (alongside str 8+ weaponry) is try to eliminate that painboy ASAP. Make sure you're getting at least 10 hits on the squad whenever possible so you're forcing him to take saves. Mind War, Sgt. Tellion, Vindicares etc are your friend.

Killing a painboy in summary:

Mindwar: Ideal... Ld 7 vs 10 (only bork army will save you)

Gift of Chaos: This one shines. You need a 6 to make it so, but doing it for a couple turns with several models and blamo.

Assassin Sniper: Hmmm... sorta ok. Line of site issues and the 4+ cover is annoying.

Any other ways to target the painboy?

I really hate Gift of Chaos when it's targeted on my biker boss or nobs. I always roll a 6.

the grots though apparently love it as they always roll a 1...

theblklotus wrote:Killing a painboy in summary:

Mindwar: Ideal... Ld 7 vs 10 (only bork army will save you)

Gift of Chaos: This one shines. You need a 6 to make it so, but doing it for a couple turns with several models and blamo.

Assassin Sniper: Hmmm... sorta ok. Line of site issues and the 4+ cover is annoying.

Any other ways to target the painboy?

The Ultramarines Sniper Special Character

Monolith, Telion, Vindicare, Mind war, Gift of chaos, Boon of mutation, Mind worm.

The mob rule does change the painboys LD though, see p37 of Orks under Weirdboy for confirmation there. So mindwar/worm will become highly effective only once the unit has been whittled down a little.

Grandmaster would easily take him out. He has a strength 6 force weapon at iniative 5 haha and he'll live to force weapon again with his retinue around.
I really do think 700pt unit is at your own peril, I mean I haven't got anything against it with a 650pt unit of GM+GKT+LRC combo.

Monolith

Not since 5ed FAQ

Q. Can the AP1 hit from the particle whip be
assigned to any member of a squad or does it
have to be assigned to the model under the
centre of the template?

A. Any model directly under the centre of the
large blast template of the particle whip takes an
AP1 hit. The rules for blast weapons state that the
defending player may remove casualties from the
unit as a whole, not necessarily those under the
template, and this rule still applies here, so the
player can assign the AP1 hit to any model in the
unit.

Callidus assassin hm? Instant kills nobz the flame template touches.. All for 120pts

Speaking of blowing Nob minds, it might be something for Eldar to first use Mind War to take out the Doc, so that the Nobz don't get Feel No Pain, and then lay-in with some Warlocks using Destructor.

Similarly, use the Vindicare Assassin to pick off the Doc, or that Space Marine Scout Sergeant, and then apply Heavy Flamethrowers.

I think a callidus is better than a vindicare for that job

Been stewing over how the tau could possibly handle nob bikers and still be viable against other army lists. I present to you my Mech tau biker beater army, however I want to preface this by saying I'm just recently jumping back into 40k and have not played a single game in 5th edition nevermind playing against the new ork codex, the list is 1500 points.

HQ

1x Shas'el, Plasma rifle, Fusion Blaster, Multi Tracker 87


Troops

12 x fire warrior, shas'ui, bonding knife, 135
1 x Devil fish, SMS, disruption pod, targeting array, 110
12 x fire warrior, shasui, bonding knife 135
1 x Devilish, SMS, disruption pod, targeting array, 110
12 x fire warrior, shasui, bonding knife 135
1 x Devilish, SMS, disruption pod, targeting array, 110

Fast Attack
5 x Piranha, fusion gun 325

Heavy Support

1 x Hammerhead, rail gun, sms, disruption pod, MT, 180
1 x Hammerhead, rail gun, sms, disruption pod, MT, 180

the idea here is to setup as far away as possible to avoid a first round assault, let the bikers drive forward then move the piranhas flat out to encircle the offending bikes leaving 2" gaps between every piranha then tank shocking an available devil fish or hammer head up the middle. now i know tank shock rules have changed so the nobs will just autopass the moral test however it does say that if the tank comes to rest on top of models the models must be moved 1" away from the tank now if there is no room to move do to being ensconced by piranhas would those models then be destroyed? if so then it wouldn't even really matter if the piranhas got gibbed in the next shooting phase? Would 2 hammerheads launching submunition rounds with 3 fishies sms'ing be enough to polish the second bike mob?

Moz wrote:Monolith, Telion, Vindicare, Mind war, Gift of chaos, Boon of mutation, Mind worm.

The mob rule does change the painboys LD though, see p37 of Orks under Weirdboy for confirmation there. So mindwar/worm will become highly effective only once the unit has been whittled down a little.

Well, we also talked about either 3x Prisms or 3x Snakes on a Plane to disembark and soften up the nobs a bit. Then the the bikes saunter up into assault position and fires off a "Mind War" before they assault. Unfortunately, this tactic is pretty much a desparate gamble to wipe out just one bike squad, and if it fails, it's going to be very ugly.

And Nurglitch, Parrot much?

whitedragon:

I think I would have had to have read his post to parrot it.

Kirasu wrote:Callidus assassin hm? Instant kills nobz the flame template touches.. All for 120pts

How would it instant kill them?
If they're leadership 9 (from warboss or mob rule) then the neural shredder (S8 but goes against Ld not toughness) will be wounding on 5+, and no instant death.
or am I missing something?

I'd think assaulting nob bikers would be a quick way of saying goodbye to your callidus. with the pile in move she'd take so many hits, she'd never dodge them all.

Might be cool though, you can imagine she was disguised as an ammo runt on the back of one of the nobs. as the battle starts, she holds on tighter... and tighter... and ...

Yeah, you are missing something.. for some the shredder counts as S8 and insta kills with it.

Moz wrote:Monolith, Telion, Vindicare, Mind war, Gift of chaos, Boon of mutation, Mind worm.

The mob rule does change the painboys LD though, see p37 of Orks under Weirdboy for confirmation there. So mindwar/worm will become highly effective only once the unit has been whittled down a little.

Page 37 reads that the wierdboy uses the Mob Rule, not the painboy. The pain boy is not addressed, hence I do read anywhere that the pyschic attack against the painboy can be defended by the mob rule benefit. According to the Eldar pyschic attack rules, the painboy would have to use his own leadership. Even individual marines with rites of battle did not get to use the commanders leadership to defend against mindwar attacks......... Pg 28 of the Eldar book reads that each prospective model contrast their own leaderships with the aid of a D6 each. The highest number determines the winner........ The painboy is not considered fearless or anything above his normal individual leadership value.......

Kallbrand wrote:Yeah, you are missing something.. for some the shredder counts as S8 and insta kills with it.

It's in the latest the WH or DH FAQ. The S8 Neural Shredder only insta-kills when it is double the target's leadership.

rcm2216 wrote:
Page 37 reads that the wierdboy uses the Mob Rule, not the painboy. The pain boy is not addressed, hence I do read anywhere that the pyschic attack against the painboy can be defended by the mob rule benefit. According to the Eldar pyschic attack rules, the painboy would have to use his own leadership. Even individual marines with rites of battle did not get to use the commanders leadership to defend against mindwar attacks......... Pg 28 of the Eldar book reads that each prospective model contrast their own leaderships with the aid of a D6 each. The highest number determines the winner........ The painboy is not considered fearless or anything above his normal individual leadership value.......

pg 37 is not an exception for the weirdboy, it is a clear example of how the mob rule works on individual models. The mob rule doesn't change, and it does effect individual models LD value. Ex. weirdboys.

Probably better to debate this in YMDC anyways.

Every ork with Mob Rule benefits from it, and can use the number of orks in the mob as his leadership. With a full unit, the leadership starts at 10 and decreases accordingly.

to be completely honest anyone with any decent firepower and the knowledge that bikes have to make dangerous terrain tests to assault your units that will be shooting them up will make dust out of the nob bike list. as an ork player, i firmly agree with most of the board, th/ss termys will make a mockery of the bikers, as will anything able to take plasma cannons with or without lash. as for the second squad of bikers, they usually die from the nice little orbital bombardment from sm masters. as for the other armies, they all have a way of focusing all of their fustration that i was cheesy enough to take two of these squads on the other squad by focusing all of their firepower on it. It doesn't matter how many saves/wound allocations available, put enough wounds on them and they will drop.

My top 3:
at #3. 10 Howling Banshees [power weapons and high Int]
at #2. Seer Counsil Farseer [mind war] and destructor warlocks
at #1. 12 Genestealers, impact glands, toxin sacs and scything talons

Dark Lances. Lots of dark lances. Luckily Dark Eldar can field lots of dark lances. or equivalant.

20+ darklances scares everything.

theblklotus wrote:20+ darklances scares everything.

I'm afraid of the dark!

And Nurglitch, I was referring to my earlier post on page 3 where I specified that Mind War was a good way to off the Pain boy, which you parrotted on page 4.

whitedragon:

Like I said, I'd have to actually read a post to parrot it.

ummmm, how about just shooting the very very small ammount of troups they have???

*Me* "ok, all your troups are dead. that means you cant claim any objs"
*Ork player* "but wha... i... my bikes...."
*Me* "yes, your bikes contest those 2 OBJ's (or table quarters), but because i dident ball up in a corner and cry. the one unit of troops i have on the OBJ over there claim it and i win"
*Ork player* " "
*Me* " "

Envy89 wrote:ummmm, how about just shooting the very very small ammount of troups they have???

*Me* "ok, all your troups are dead. that means you cant claim any objs"
*Ork player* "but wha... i... my bikes...."
*Me* "yes, your bikes contest those 2 OBJ's (or table quarters), but because i dident ball up in a corner and cry. the one unit of troops i have on the OBJ over there claim it and i win"
*Ork player* " "
*Me* " "

*Me* I'm claiming 2 objectives with my bikes.
*You* Bikes aren't scoring, I am all like
*Me* Welcome to 40k, my bikes are troops. Bottom tables are that way.

Whoops, Moz beat me to it...he was funnier anyway.

since when is a warboss with nobs a troop choice??... since when are warbikes a troop choice??

also, you would be sitting on 2 objs, with a modle or 2 left of mine.... so lets say i trubo bost a fast attack skimmer over the OBJ on the bottom of the last turn.... dang, i new those things where there for somehting... fast armies FTW

Optimism in the face of adversity is good. I think you might find those strategies harder to pull off in practice. If you don't mind my asking, how many games have you played and won against nob bikers to verify the effectiveness of this advice?

vs biker nobs... none.... our ork player runs 3 death roller AV 14 battle waggons allong with other goddies

vs other crazy kick butt CC units.... tons of time.

i am the only Tau player i know of that LIKES to take bottom of turn.... simply because i get to Zip in and claim / contest allmost every OBJ with my fast moving stuff

Envy89 wrote:vs biker nobs... none....

/end thread

meh.

when i win VS them, ill let you know. there are 2 things my army dose 1 - outgun you, and 2 - dance around you. when i am playing vs a massed horde and have no where to dance, i have troubel. when i am playing vs a small force, i clean house.

at 1500 you have what 22 bikes and a few grots??? i will out number you (grots dont count), and i have guns that will burn right through your feal no pain. on top of that, i have throw away units (free gun drones FTW) that will leave you with your in the wind.

the more i think about it, the more i wish out ork player would run biker nobs insted of battle waggon blitz.

Have you paid attention to anything in this thread? You won't be able to shoot the Orks, they have a 4+ cover that becomes 3+ when they turboboost. Also, every Nob has two wounds which means you need to use S8 or higher to insta-kill them as simply removing wounds won't work (need to cause 12 wounds to remove the first model). As a Tau player you will have, what, 3-4 S8+ weapons? So you are killing 1-2 Nobs per turn MAX.

I played a small 1,000 point game with my Ravenwing vs. a single mob of Nob bikes plus some lootas. I had enough meltas to thin their ranks and then used my powerfists to take out the rest. Sacrificed all my bikes to take him out and in the end, only his Warboss was left. Was able to shoot him to death with Sammael and my landspeeder tornado. Tough game, don't think the Ravenwing could pull it off at 1750.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Statistically how much would a chapter masters space laser do to the squad? Str 10 ap1 ordanance pie isn't something to laugh at and the squad should be large enough that a scatter won't rob you of the shot entirely.

Do they get a cover save from it? If not it can kill a lot; if so then maybe 1 or 2.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

They would get cover, so it's not like an 'Answer' or anything. But multiple S10 hits is never a bad idea.

@Ozy & Shum : They get cover saves (either 3/4+) so the entire squad could be wiped, or broken. but generally, just a fair few.

@ Squig: Farseer [mindwar] with the banshees, surely. Seerconcil can function roaming on their own fine? But ya, good call.

@ Traskel: Mindwar uses the models LD. This would be the number list under its LD heading.

@White dragon: If you sit a squad of banshees in cover, with a mindwar farseer - they shoot you and you shoot them (with mindwar, killing a nob a turn) 4+ cover/armour save can weather str 5 x lots long enough. If the squad gets charged you force dangerous terrain tests and the (remaining) banshees will attack back at full effectiveness.

Two farseer type squads can happily split between each bike squad (the idea is to gut the painboy then PK nobs) while all your ranged shoots lots. 4+ cover sv is standard. Yes the farseer squads will die if charged.

I guess its the one time eldar should really stand still....

Tau's defense against Nob bikers is to pin the bastards....Enough marker light hits from pathfinders combined with pulse carbines from a sacrificial unit of drones or firewarriors would work. "Here take your pin test at a -5!" LOL. I'd just do that for a while and then use the rest of my stuff to deal with the other elements in their army.

Capt K

Moz wrote:They would get cover, so it's not like an 'Answer' or anything. But multiple S10 hits is never a bad idea.

My marine force fields a master, shrike, 6 tac squads with missile launchers a full termy squad with 2 cyclones, and 3 anti infantry preds with hunter killers. In the first turn I'm able to lay out 13 krak missiles and a space laser (plus whatever else the predators might try to do). Statistically if I do it in the right order I should be able to kill five or six bikers in the first turn If I'm able to bring it all to bare. My typical deployment against heavy hitter like nob bikes (in theory I've never faced the list before) or dark angels involves combat squadding everything and denying multiple assaults by spacing the front three 5 man squads evenly across the entire front flank of my army. This way the max fast bikes/landraiders/whatever can possibly kill is 15 basic tac marines. After which my gunline lays into them. I can outshoot 2 nob bike squads pretty handily simply by the virtue of being a firing line, so I'm not too worried about that. What do you think a well deployed somewhat spammy marine list would be capable of doing against nob bikers?

I've never faced the army so I can't really venture a guess. The army also features a few flamers and meltaguns, and depending on points some dreads.

Well... at 1500 I cram a lot of high ST Low AP guns in.

If I get top of turn. I could take out almost an entire squad. If I go second it would be harder, but I do have enough S8.... and enough marker lights to negate those cover saves.
You have underestimated the dakka of my tau.

On the note of S8 and AP1.... what dose this army do when a SOB army set up on the other side of the table with 3 of those blasted pipe organs???
Or, when charged, use an act of faith to make your 3+ save an invul.

Man... I like the sound of this sisters army I am working on right now

Do you have enough markerlights to get past thier 3+/4+ cover save in the first place.. or do they just need to hit to set up a counter?

@Shuma = lol pew. Although the Hunterkillers add alot of pew, one shot. But 3 bikers/squad = a morale check 1st turn, woo!

well, yes. the lights do need to hit first....

but alls i need is 4 marker hits and a very large chunk of one biker squad is tost..... and when they get close, they will be in range of even more of my S8.... and there will be even MORE tost

ShumaGorath wrote:

Moz wrote:They would get cover, so it's not like an 'Answer' or anything. But multiple S10 hits is never a bad idea.

My marine force fields a master, shrike, 6 tac squads with missile launchers a full termy squad with 2 cyclones, and 3 anti infantry preds with hunter killers. In the first turn I'm able to lay out 13 krak missiles and a space laser (plus whatever else the predators might try to do). Statistically if I do it in the right order I should be able to kill five or six bikers in the first turn If I'm able to bring it all to bare. My typical deployment against heavy hitter like nob bikes (in theory I've never faced the list before) or dark angels involves combat squadding everything and denying multiple assaults by spacing the front three 5 man squads evenly across the entire front flank of my army. This way the max fast bikes/landraiders/whatever can possibly kill is 15 basic tac marines. After which my gunline lays into them. I can outshoot 2 nob bike squads pretty handily simply by the virtue of being a firing line, so I'm not too worried about that. What do you think a well deployed somewhat spammy marine list would be capable of doing against nob bikers?

I've never faced the army so I can't really venture a guess. The army also features a few flamers and meltaguns, and depending on points some dreads.

Congratulations, you won first turn. I'm a nob biker player, and I hold everything in reserve. Now what do you do? When the bikes arrive, they boost 24" to get the 3+ cover. Now all your S8+ weaponry is near-useless.

Envy89 wrote:Well... at 1500 I cram a lot of high ST Low AP guns in.

If I get top of turn. I could take out almost an entire squad. If I go second it would be harder, but I do have enough S8.... and enough marker lights to negate those cover saves.
You have underestimated the dakka of my tau.

On the note of S8 and AP1.... what dose this army do when a SOB army set up on the other side of the table with 3 of those blasted pipe organs???
Or, when charged, use an act of faith to make your 3+ save an invul.

Man... I like the sound of this sisters army I am working on right now

With all due respect - how do you get enough S8+ weaponry? 9 Broadsides? Everything else has way-too short of range to be workable.

Actuallly, that's not a bad counter. 9 broadsides plus markerlight support, with fire warriors to screen the broadsides from getting easily assaulted.

By the way, the exorcists are much less useful against a 3+ cover save from turbo-boosting, or even the 4+ save from regular cover. And the 3+ inv. is next to impossible to get in a useful situation.

Congratulations, you won first turn. I'm a nob biker player, and I hold everything in reserve. Now what do you do? When the bikes arrive, they boost 24" to get the 3+ cover. Now all your S8+ weaponry is near-useless.

Actually i was counting a 4+ cover save for it all in my mathemagic so I'm still killing a few. And regardless of whatever first turn shenanigans I manage I think the denied multiple effective assaults was the linchpin of my defense. Killing 5 bikers isn't all that big considering its taking my entire army. Its the attrition factor of the multiple sacrificial squads that was pulling the main weight of my defense. And thats something that setting up in reserves isn't really helping you too much with.

In that situation I would likely hold back the hunter killers until the second or third turn following your first set of assaults. I honestly don't know how well I would be able to deal with it all, after burning through my 6 sacrificial empty squads my army would be left pretty bare. I can only really afford to throw out 2 turns of sacrifices before i have to start throwing krak missiles into the grinder of mellee. Its all in how dearly I can sell their lives during that time.

Presumably I could empty out a full squad of the bikers in my initial shooting and after the first line of sacrifices. I would probably have to assault the remaining few with some terminators to finish them off (unless bolters somehow managed to pull off a miracle). The second squad would be the real question, as they would probably kill off that terminator squad in assault after.

You all better watch out, I'm taking Deathwing to Adepticon!
Ozymandias, King of Kings

I think Deathwing can give nob bikers a run for the money. LotS of power fists/thunder hammers and venerable dreadnaughts.

I think the best way to beat down this list is to take it to them in close combat. If you can do this you have effectively stole their thunder and your opponent will not be expecting it. Nob biker players are very confident in their close combat prowess plus it is the only way they can win In both objective based missions and kill points. You have to field a list that is even better In assault... A list you can look your opponent In the eye and smile back.

G

Ozymandias wrote:You all better watch out, I'm taking Deathwing to Adepticon!
Ozymandias, King of Kings

No you're not....you're taking traitor guard!

I'm taking Traitor Guard for Dakka Detachment 2 with you guys. I'm taking Deathwing for the 40k Championships on Sunday (unless I can't get them painted in time in which case I'm taking Dark Eldar...).

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I have played two games against lists with 2xNob Bikers. The first was a 2000 pt game vs shooty SM list filled with meltas and lascannons. With a first turn turbo boost, even a SM list filled with S8+ couldn't kill enough in their one turn before they were in my lines destroying the rest of my army. I think some people are very over-optimistic about the chances of stopping this army via shooting.

My second game was a 2500 pt Demon (with no MCs) vs Nob Bikers in Dawn of War (I had first turn, ugh) and Kill Points (even more ugh) two nights ago. The Ork player's entire army had 9 KP, while mine was almost twice that. I ending up losing the game by a few KPs (I would have won any of the objective-based missions, since he hid a squad of mega-nobz in an immobilized BW), but I did manage to destroy both Nob squads. The technique:

1a. be very lucky with turn 2 reserve rolls (I made almost every one).
1b. have nothing but inv saves negating somewhat the pain of the PKs.
2. give em a few wounds via shooting. A squad of 3 flamers can put down a lot of wounds (we weren't sure if Nobs still get FNP from these).
3. hold-up the bikes with something the can survive one turn shooting+combat and not run away. In one case, it was two large squads of horrors + Tz herald in chariot, in the second it was a large squad (5) of crushers + daemonettes (16 of them). The high init rending and PWs help, and those wounds should be put on the boss.
4. counter-charge in both cases with large (15) squad of letters and chariot herald of Khorne. That is, attack with an insane number of high init power weapons (bypassing FNP) and have lots of bodies to absorb the wounds back.
5. Once the boss is dead, the bike squad will usually break at around 4 or 5 bodies.

With all due respect - how do you get enough S8+ weaponry? 9 Broadsides? Everything else has way-too short of range to be workable.

Actuallly, that's not a bad counter. 9 broadsides plus markerlight support, with fire warriors to screen the broadsides from getting easily assaulted.

I agree with C99. Or you can just attempt to pin them. A 9 broadside army really isn't that feasible vs. other armies either.

Capt K

Bikers that have turb boosted Cannot be pinned.

I did mention this in another thread, placing your objective in a tall building will prevent bikers getting up.

I have yet to battle against this list.. but very interested to try. Between a friend of mine is making a similar list to the biker nob list and me sending my CSM into a local tournament I wanted to be prepared for the biker nobs.

How do you feel about
Abby, 4termies, MoK, all Pfists, 2 combi meltas (champ and normal), charging out a landraider vs a 10 man squad? This is all I could really afford without gimping my list vs all comers.

Mausama

storm knight wrote:Bikers that have turb boosted Cannot be pinned.

I did mention this in another thread, placing your objective in a tall building will prevent bikers getting up.

That's why Moz suggested "contestin' poles"!!!!

smart.

G

I'm thinking a large unit of GKT might stand a chance. With most of the Nobs using a Power claw the grey knights have a decent weapons skill and would be going first with power weapons so no FNP rolls.

Throw in a Grand Master to use the codex force weapon rules might help as well.

Only problem is keeping the Grey Knights alive long enough with all the twin linked dakka gun shots flying around before the charge.

With more of these lists popping up I might have to playtest this idea.

C99 has already done the math for GKT... does not work.

G

STR 6 doesn't instakill the nob so he spreads the wounds around. Result, even if you roll well you kill a couple of nobs and he brings the pain on a very expensive unit. You'd have to bring ALOT of thunderhammer/storm shields and somehow get the charge (which means a raider). Looking at what you're advocating it'll cost.... 770 points (from memory) for a GK master w/incinerator, 7 terminators, 1 incinerator, and the LRC you'll need to deliver them. That costs as much as his squad. It would basically be MAD (mutually assured destruction. You'd probably kill his warboss, and wipe out the squad, but suffer horrendous casualties yourself. That's IF you got the charge and IF 6 of your terminators had TH/SS. At that point you might as well be playing regular marines. Now he's got another squad and you're out of counters unless you took Brother Captain Stern and ANOTHER massive unit of these guys.

I know that, but to do anything, they aren't going to be turbo boosting all game.

storm knight wrote:Bikers that have turb boosted Cannot be pinned.

Mausama wrote:I have yet to battle against this list.. but very interested to try. Between a friend of mine is making a similar list to the biker nob list and me sending my CSM into a local tournament I wanted to be prepared for the biker nobs.

How do you feel about
Abby, 4termies, MoK, all Pfists, 2 combi meltas (champ and normal), charging out a landraider vs a 10 man squad? This is all I could really afford without gimping my list vs all comers.

Mausama

Abby with anything does a nice job of punking the nob bikerz. As long as he's got some models there to soak wounds from the powerfists, the nob squad is probably dead. S8 power weapon at I6, with 6-10 attacks, hitting on 3s and re-rolling failed to-wounds = Win.

If he can catch em...

I mean, the Deceiver will slap down Nob Bikers as well, doesn't make him a viable counter though.

With judicious use of a Chaos Landraider, possibly a HQ with lash to lend a hand, Abby can catch them.

Capt K

Yes Abby in the pimp ride can beat them down. The point difference is huge and a BIG advantage to Chaos.

G

Honestly I don't see why he would need to catch them. put him in the middle of your lines and the bikes will come to you. Its not like they are doing anything else.

Agreed. They must charge in an objective based game.

G