out of all the 100's of gamers i have met, only 2 have been girls. i am interested to know if anyone knows of girls that play this?

So how many girls do you know that play GW?

I know half a dozen or so girls who play miniatures games. One plays blood bowl, one plays WHFB, Two play Flames of War and the other two play Wargods of Aegyptus, so out of that group, 2 play GW games.

I know several wives/girlfriends that play, but few that entered thehobby o ntheir own. Although therre was that stripper I played at a tournament.

I don't think GW makes enough effort to draw women in. I've noticed when we go into shops the staff immediately speak to me but not to my wife, even though she has an interest in painting and game playing too, though I've never actually played Warhammer itself with her.

The attitude is that women there are either buying gifts or just following their man around. Well that's an impolite assumption to make IMO. Even if it is the case they should at first engage them like they do the men and ask if they paint or play and what their interests are, because that's what they do whenever a man walks in. To do otherwise is sexist.

Yeah i only know a couple that are into this hobby, i remember a year or so ago when i was passing through Hull that the gamesworkshop had a female staff member which was the first one i had ever seen.

But i agree with Howard i dont think any effort is made on GW's behalf to engage female gamers. Though on the other hand i tend not to even take my girlfriend with me to the local grimsby store as it would appear as soon as i do a good share of weirdos do there best to stare and make her feel uncomfortable. (that and the BO smell that seems to go hand in hand with small GW stores).

But i think its one reason that my girlfriend has never moved past the occasionally painting something stage, and thats the fact that the hobby does attract a small percentage of what you might call the socially awkward that do a decent job of making females feel uncomfortable (current and one past partner have felt this).

This can i suppose be circumvented by finding a good group and playing with them, but about the wider hobby as this question talks about I think these are the kind of things that can put female gamers off.

Salad_Fingers wrote:(that and the BO smell that seems to go hand in hand with small GW stores)

Don't get me started on GW and BO. I mean really, would the kids wear it if GW sold their own brand of deodorant in the shop? I recall going int a GW in the summer holidays in the middle of a huge game with about 20-30 teenagers all around the table, the smell of BO was eye watering, they had huge fans going to cool the place down and one member of staff appeared out of the back room witha can of air freshener which he sprayed liberally around the room. I didn't last long.

I knew a couple of girls at university who were into wargames. They were more into the role-playing side of things though they did take some interest in historicals. This was before Warhammer was invented.

I haven't met a girl club member since then.

My wife is entirely disinterested -- she considers painting figures an occupation for prison inmates. My daughter has shown some interest because at her age (9) it looks like a kind of game of dolls.

I went out with a girl who played before I met her, I also know about 3 or 4 others. But mostly I think wargaming is a male hobby.

There are a handful of girls at the shop I frequent.

My wife plays sometimes. She enjoys painting individual models, but not the repetition of painting an army.

I have been playing 40k for about 8 years and have not once even seen a female player, nevermind played against one.

I played against a woman last night.

Mostly women arent strategic/mathematically talented by nature. Ofc, with exceptions.

Also, playing with toy soldiers have always by tradition been a male thing.

That's incredibily sexist. It also has no scientific basis.

In the U.S. historically girls were steered away from math and hard sciences during elementary and secondary school which led to the perception of women being less adapt at math/science. But that has gradually been changing over time.

Howard A Treesong wrote:The attitude is that women there are either buying gifts or just following their man around. Well that's an impolite assumption to make IMO. Even if it is the case they should at first engage them like they do the men and ask if they paint or play and what their interests are, because that's what they do whenever a man walks in. To do otherwise is sexist.

Having worked retail, the following is not something that's trained, but certainly implied. When assisting couples, it's customary to address the person of the same sex as you first. So if you're male, you speak with the male, and vice versa. This makes it seem as if you are NOT hitting on their parter (even though sometimes you are ). However, if a couple splits up when entering the store, then it's pretty much free game. Though I'd still try to approach the same sex person first simply out of respect.

I guess I kind of equate it to a waiter who puts the check down in front of the woman. On dates (particularly first dates), I find this insulting. If you can't put the check in front of the male, then put it mid-table. Though I'm still of the mindset that the guy should pay for the first date. After that, given Women's Rights, the economy, and other things, something else can be worked out on a case-by-case basis.

And for the record, I've played against one female, but have witnessed four.

None of which let me buy them dinner

I have seen four or five woman war gaming one has over 10,000 pts of nids. One i played two weeks ago plays necrons the others played fantasy or other games. We have lots of women come in the store for other things

budro wrote:That's incredibily sexist. It also has no scientific basis.

In the U.S. historically girls were steered away from math and hard sciences during elementary and secondary school which led to the perception of women being less adapt at math/science. But that has gradually been changing over time.

And that's revisionist thinking. Girls just aren't very smart. That is also why they don't play football.

Get with the times.

<- Female

I play Tau, CSM and Orks. I initially got into the hobby because of my enjoyment of RTS games (Especially DoW) and i thought the minis looked neat. So my husband and I picked up some battleforces and MacCrag and tried it out. He has been enjoying it, but not as much as me..

I'm up to about 3500 of Tau, 2000 CSM, and not much of Orks, but I'm working on it. I'm going to try my luck at 'ard Boyz next year, so I just might see some of you there.

I told you when you played her Zamboni, if you bought my girlfriend AND I dinner I would have let you take her out after the game.

This is gonna end up being somewhat sexist, mysoginist and probably inflammatory....

But I don't like miniature or role-play gaming with women. And our gaming group eventually came up with a "ban" on allowing women to play.

Our experience has been that they are not fun to game with, they bring drama to the club, they are more concerned with socialzing rather then gaming, and just bring down the whole experience.

It's the same when watching football.....hardly any women understand the strategy, and all they do is giggle and talk about watching the men's asses in the tight pants.

Now, play some games like Settlers of Cataan, or Monoply or Boggle, and women are fine to game with...except when they start losing and get bored and whiny.

General Hobbs wrote:

This is gonna end up being somewhat sexist, mysoginist and probably inflammatory....

But I don't like miniature or role-play gaming with women. And our gaming group eventually came up with a "ban" on allowing women to play.

Our experience has been that they are not fun to game with, they bring drama to the club, they are more concerned with socialzing rather then gaming, and just bring down the whole experience.

It's the same when watching football.....hardly any women understand the strategy, and all they do is giggle and talk about watching the men's asses in the tight pants.

Now, play some games like Settlers of Cataan, or Monoply or Boggle, and women are fine to game with...except when they start losing and get bored and whiny.

Well, rather, but...

I'm all for Gentlemen's Clubs. We all need to get away from the other half for a while on occasion.

I just wish I could get my wife to have the same attitude towards taking me shopping for shoes.

At the FLGS there are several women who play WM/Hordes but none who play 40k/Fantasy.

My wife wanted to learn how to play 40k or Fantasy to humor me, mostly, but I wouldn't want her to learn. I certainly don't want her to start painting- she would certainly be better than I am (which isn't difficult).

Salad_Fingers wrote:
But i think its one reason that my girlfriend has never moved past the occasionally painting something stage, and thats the fact that the hobby does attract a small percentage of what you might call the socially awkward that do a decent job of making females feel uncomfortable (current and one past partner have felt this).

This can i suppose be circumvented by finding a good group and playing with them, but about the wider hobby as this question talks about I think these are the kind of things that can put female gamers off.

Bingo! We have a winner!

Basically we've got a hobby that appeals to a small part of the overall population. Most people involved in this have been introduced to it by their friends, or by going into a hobby store (dominated by men). If you're a woman who DOES know somebody who's interested in this sort of thing, what are the chances that you're also going to be interested? I'm going to guess on average, pretty low, and whatever interest you DO have is likely to be tempered some degree by the socially awkward people you're likely to run into.

At the heart of it, these games are largely about social interaction. If I just wanted to paint stuff I could do that at home. If I just want to play a game with little soldiers there are a ton of computer games out there, with instant match over the 'net stuff.

So if the social interaction is not what you're comfortable with, then you'll leave.

So to those guys who are lucky enough to have a woman (or two) who are interested in play with you, the BEST thing you can do it treat them just the same as all the other guys in the shop, just maybe with a little less trash talk.

Cyporiean wrote:<- Female

I play Tau, CSM and Orks. I initially got into the hobby because of my enjoyment of RTS games (Especially DoW) and i thought the minis looked neat. So my husband and I picked up some battleforces and MacCrag and tried it out. He has been enjoying it, but not as much as me..

I'm up to about 3500 of Tau, 2000 CSM, and not much of Orks, but I'm working on it. I'm going to try my luck at 'ard Boyz next year, so I just might see some of you there.

Thats great to hear

General Hobbs wrote:This is gonna end up being somewhat sexist, mysoginist and probably inflammatory.... But I don't like miniature or role-play gaming with women.

Easily the funniest thing you've ever said Hobbs.

BYE

General Hobbs wrote:

This is gonna end up being somewhat sexist, mysoginist and probably inflammatory....

But I don't like miniature or role-play gaming with women.

I total disagree, some of the best games i have played is against women and some of the best painting has been done by women

As has been said, GW does not cater to women and that women who go into a store are often ignored in favour of their partners.

This problem, however, is not down to sexism amongst GW staff - its down to poor quality of GW staff.

GW needs to realise that if it stops paying abysmal wages, and incentivises staff to stay on by rewarding them with year-on-year pay increases (as happens with lots of other jobs) it will get...

...wait for it, drum roll please...


...GOOD STAFF!!!

Most GW staff are young and inexperienced - and work with other young and inexperienced staff because of the lack of retention. It becomes difficult for them to learn the art of conversation and the ability to pitch conversation at the appropriate level for the customer in question.

As a result, everyone gets the 'YAY, SPASE MARIENZ, HURR...' treatment. This works fine with 12-year-old boys, but tends to be grating on older gamers and sends women running screaming and/or laughing from the shop.

Good conversational skills can overcome a lot of prejudice (hell, I got a mum to agree to buy the WFB 6th ed box set to play with her son by talking up the virtues of the literacy, numeracy and artistic skills required ) but you need people who have done more than graduate from playing in the shop as kids to working in the shop as adults to make it happen.

just my $0.02

@Chimera_Calvin, sounds like you turned you $0.02 into $85AUD lol, good return and totally agree with you on the staff thing.

I would love to work a t GW but am 100's of K's from them, i totally know what you mean by lack of conversation, im only 16 but find it really trying if they use 10 year old talk to me.

That's strange...

Aren't bald men pointing and screaming attractive ?

I play warhams to get the white womens.

we don't need no stinkin' badges

I disagree with the Huh Spase Marinez comment about 12 year olds. I'm 13 and if a GW staff member said that to me I'd buy what I wanted to buy and leave.

I've been playing for 15 years and I think in that whole time, maybe i've seen 5 girl gamers. My wife plays WFB and 40K and I love her for it. The funniest thing I ever saw was her first tourney. It was during the summer and quite hot out, so my wife wore a tank top and skirt to try and stay cool. Her one opponent was about 18 and looked as if he had never seen a girl that he hadn't downloaded.
Well, during my wife's turn, she leans over the table to move some minis and was asking the kid if she wheeled them correctly, still being unsure of herself. I glance at the guy, and he had a zombie stare down my wife's top. I thought his head would explode. She had to repeat her question to get an answer from him and even then it was a numb, "un huh. sure." The rest of the game went the same way and I am pretty sure my wife's high elves could have all had a move rate of 33 inches, and all had toughness 12 and 17 attacks each and this kid would not have batted an eye. Funny as hell.

She won BTW.

This topic circulates now and then. There are plenty of reasons, none of which fully explain the phenomenon but which as a whole provide a good reason. They've been explored in a fair amount, and I don't see a need to discuss them here.

I don't see it as a problem, however. Many other hobbies are strongly skewed one way or the other. SCrapbooking and knitting are still mostly women (although more men are picking up both). Model Railroading and CCGs tend to be more male. As a whole, men tend to have more free time than women. Women do more child rearing and housework and often work as much as men. Even when women do have free time, they would often rather stay at home or spend time talking to a friend.

I also think men tend to have more of a need to justify spending time with other guys. Watching a game, playing 40k, fishing: these are all ways to socialize with other men. It would be weird to simply sit around and gossip for three hours, so we seize an activity we enjoy and do that socially. Fewer women feel that need, and so can socialize without props, so to speak.

As for banning women, I'm ashamed to say that I could see the allure to that. A gaming group can have problems if people enter it that have fundamentally different goals than the rest, regardless of gender. A club that eliminates those that ruin the fun of others isn't wrong. I think a sweeping gender ban is reactionary and I'd be uncomfortable with it, but I can at least understand why you would do it. Having a "man cave" is a beautiful thing.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Well, rather, but...

I'm all for Gentlemen's Clubs. We all need to get away from the other half for a while on occasion.

I just wish I could get my wife to have the same attitude towards taking me shopping for shoes.

When you said "Gentlemen's Clubs" I thought of something totally different a.k.a. Titty bars. This leads to my next thought of hiring strippers to play 40k. The only problem I can see is I would probably lose a lot because of the near completely effective distraction techniques of my opponent.

I've seen probably a dozen or so ladies who play various miniatures games, and several more who play RPGs, including historicals. Actually, I tend to think ladies are more interested in the 'light historicals' (e.g. pulp) genre because of its emphasis on storytelling (not role-playing per se) over straight bash 'em ups. Just IMHO.

White Dwarf a couple of years ago actually had an okay article on women who game (I can't believe I just wrote that). A little condescending in the 'gurlz can game tooo!' variety but on the right track. Mark Rhein-Hagen also had a great article in the 2nd Ed. Vampire Player's guide on women and gaming in general (specifically, the interest in storytelling over roll-playing, though I have to say, most of the women I've played D&D with wanted a big sword to hit things with and to get through the 'flavor text' as quickly as possible).

The best thing the local battle bunker did (now, this was 3+ years ago and I haven't been back since) was hire a woman as a blackshirt. she knew her stuff (well, at least as well as a blackshirt does), painted well, was not just 'nerd bait' (though a local comic shop had that too), was polite and thoughtful. I don't know whether it was her management style or just a change of staff, but the whole crew was much better after she became manager; approachable and helpful without being pushy or screamy.

My GF plays Necrons.

Grace, a poster on this forums plays and she has 2-3 friends that play that are females

The middle aged overweight trainwrecks that support this hobby don't really attract women to gaming stores. The overweight teen trainwrecks don't help either. Well really overweight trainwrecks of all shapes sizes and ages. I see girls more often at conventions or as "the girlfriend" then I do as gamers.

I play warhams to get the white womens.

I play them in the fervent hope that one day I will get to marry an elf!

chicks don't really dig the games, yo.

But when they do they are happy playing WoW. Excellent way to attract a mate. That, and I would venture some friendly Magic: The Gathering groups can go as high as 1/3 female.

that, and I personally have been known to coerce girlfriends into playing Hordes. It's not hard, really. Other games are fun too, like Pirates of the Carribean. NOT anything Warhammer, too complicated/ drearysome.

Basically all of these opinions are valid. A lot of women are too... I hate to use the word emotional... it's more a lack of ability to seperate reality (what is) from fantasy (what you want). It makes for a poor grasp of tactics.
Most thirteen year old males have the same problem, but there's nothing wrong with being interested in a game just for the background.
In this case the fluff is obviously NOT so appealing to women. War-themes aside, the competitive aspect is another deterrent to girly-girls. I'm making a comparison to blokey-blokes here, something I don't believe I am.

My partner works in the paint department at a large DIY warehouse, lifts heavy things, etc. whilst I carry a briefcase, iron my shirts and fix ornaments (rich people's computers) for a living. My hair is also twice the length of hers. Role reversal? I don't really think so.
Despite her lifetime of paint experience, she has never painted the one miniature I bought her over twelve months ago. She once sat down and painted a spare Empire Spearman after some prompting (I undercoated half a dozen different models and let her choose one to paint), but as she was quite chatty I hardly got any of my own painting done. I don't think she has the attention span to ever take wargaming seriously, but that's a nice dose of reality which helps me to NOT take it too seriously. Men tend to obsess over details the way women obsess over feelings and themes. The two genders compliment one another pretty nicely, methinks.

A lot of male gamers are just in it to paint their armies and put them on a shelf for people to see. Others just want to pwn, and painting is a low priority.
If enjoying the 'modelling' aspect can be seen as a feminine trait, then you're practising Mindless Association and may as well have female genitals and hormonal balance yourself.

I agree that more women in the hobby would raise general opinions on wargaming, and of course it would be good for GW. The 'HUR' aspect doesn't appeal to me at all, and off-topic I really didn't enjoy Gears Of War single-player for the same reason.

There is a female in my gaming group. She is a great gamer, modeller and painter. Yeah, she is the girlfriend..but from what I know, I think she got him into it. She is an awesome opponent, she came in 3rd for the first round of 'Ardboyz...and we think she missed getting first place in the semi's by 1 Necron.

No drama, no nothing. She's just a person. It's cool.

ShumaGorath wrote:The middle aged overweight trainwrecks that support this hobby don't really attract women to gaming stores. The overweight teen trainwrecks don't help either. Well really overweight trainwrecks of all shapes sizes and ages. I see girls more often at conventions or as "the girlfriend" then I do as gamers.

Hey man, those are just stereotypes. I don't know about you but in MY local GW, everyone is a bodybuilder or football player.

I play warhams to get the white womens.

I play them in the fervent hope that one day I will get to marry an elf!

When girls talk about not wanting "guys who play games", they meant Warhams. Contrary to what you might have believed. In fact, girls love guys who play "The Game" but we, being warhams players, wouldn't know anything about that.

I will say that in all my years of gaming I have only ever gamed with one woman who wasn't a total drain on the game I was playing. When I see a woman sit down at a gaming table, be it 40k, DnD, or anything that isn't a board game, they have completely ruined it for me. Not the game per se, just the entire experience of the game.

I've only ever played one game of 40k with a woman. She had no idea what was going on, her boyfriend kind of thrust her into it. Seemingly against her will.

I've played a lot of DnD with women. Almost none of them attractive. And let me tell you lady and gentlemen the non-attractive ones love to play the super hot character who wants nothing else than to be a sex tease but never give it up. The other one who was kind of hot but a ho was the DMs girlfriend and thus was showered with attention and magic items ruining the game for everyone but her. A game I recently made up an excuse to get out of featured the DMs wife totally screwing things up by not know how to do BASIC MATH! Really!? REALLY!? Come on, you got out of grade school I know it. Your in local politics advocating your fake series of disorders, you can do the math. Especially after 2 months of playing. I couldn't handle that anymore. Not to mention she would leave half way through most of the games and hand me her character to play. I was better at playing her character than she was. She also would never just STFU either. But I'm ranting. The only girl I've ever gamed with who was a complete pleasure and I wish I could sit across a table with her again to throw some dice is Laurel. She was awesome. Cared about what she looked like, but didn't obsess over it. Wanted to enjoy the game for what it was. Didn't play a kind of stereotypical female tease that you usually see. She was awesome.

And to echo everyone's opinion, games often don't try to target women. At least not normal women. I see the occasional 500 pound beasts roaming the floor at some events.

P.S.: I just read this... I'm a douche.

I've played a lot of DnD with women. Almost none of them attractive. And let me tell you lady and gentlemen the non-attractive ones love to play the super hot character who wants nothing else than to be a sex tease but never give it up. The other one who was kind of hot but a ho was the DMs girlfriend and thus was showered with attention and magic items ruining the game for everyone but her.

Well, guys also do the same thing. That's probably why I could never get into it. "Yes I get that your guy is a huge, macho character that rolls in deep with STR and CHA [contrary to yourself]." I tried playing as the low STR/CHA dude with high DEX who would cut ropes and impale fellow adventurers with heavy gates. I was asked to leave doing that.

stonefox wrote:

I've played a lot of DnD with women. Almost none of them attractive. And let me tell you lady and gentlemen the non-attractive ones love to play the super hot character who wants nothing else than to be a sex tease but never give it up. The other one who was kind of hot but a ho was the DMs girlfriend and thus was showered with attention and magic items ruining the game for everyone but her.

Well, guys also do the same thing. That's probably why I could never get into it. "Yes I get that your guy is a huge, macho character that rolls in deep with STR and CHA [contrary to yourself]." I tried playing as the low STR/CHA dude with high DEX who would cut ropes and impale fellow adventurers with heavy gates. I was asked to leave doing that.

You do see a lot of that too. And that kind of gaming is why I keep forcing myself out of the hobby. I need to find some not socially inept gross people to play with.

Haha, good luck on that yo. I'm extremely lucky that I found a crew here who are football/rugby players and wrestlers who happen to be nerdy. It's fun being able to play some beach volleyball, then take a break and do nerdy stuff, then play some tackle football afterwards.

....Then "ironically" eat cheetos and drink mountain dew to top it all off.

Typeline, your post just won this thread.

With regards to the OP, I don't think I've actually played a woman before. Odd. I did see one who played necrons at my FLGS. I think she was one of the more regular player's girlfriends, but I think her army was about 1500 points, and painted.

Girlfriends playing DnD and female gamers are different things, though. Look at it this way;

If your girlfriend is too dumb to play DnD, it's because you're also an idiot and your standards are too low. You're using your imagination, sure, but that only makes you an effective roleplayer. Your girlfriend is still dumb in real life.

It's like this; your first character is who you want to be. Your second character is the way you'd like to be seen. Your third game is a gnome illusionist (well, mine wasn't, and PC Gnomes don't exist in 4th ed, but this is satire damnit!), and your fourth character is your first ACTUAL game. It doesn't matter what gender you are. That's why roleplaying opposite genders is always creepy until you can seperate your goals from your character's. Especially if you're playing your first or second character, because it hints at some interesting personal issues.

Slightly more on topic, I've met about three female Warhammer players (one had TWO armies!) and never played against one.

We have a few females who play at the FLGS and most are girlfriends/wives. I think the big problem is that when any girl, let alone a cute girl walks in most of the guys go into staring/dribbling mode and scare them off. Not all of the guys but enough to make things uncomfortable. When people are uncomfortable they don't want to be there and when this feeling is associated with something i.e. gaming they don't want to be a part of it.

Winner:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:
If your girlfriend is too dumb to play DnD, it's because you're also an idiot and your standards are too low. You're using your imagination, sure, but that only makes you an effective roleplayer. Your girlfriend is still dumb in real life.

so true and its unfortunate that it happens, i mean when i played my first girl in 40k at a gaming club, it was my second time at the club and he first, there wasnt much staring/dribbling just fun gaming and i think thats why she came back

I don't know any females who play GW games. I know 2 Battletech players very well, and have played against a couple others.

But GW? Not a one.

Agreed, squig. In all seriousness, Commisar00's point is probably the single biggest factor.

On the other hand, there's also a difference between not being stupid and being determined not to be seen as stupid. I'm thinking of people of either gender who want to be shown how to play, but then giggle and fart their way all the way through.
Make fun of my hobby AFTER you know what you're talking about, or I'll treat you like the obnoxious idiot you rightly are.

stonefox wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:The middle aged overweight trainwrecks that support this hobby don't really attract women to gaming stores. The overweight teen trainwrecks don't help either. Well really overweight trainwrecks of all shapes sizes and ages. I see girls more often at conventions or as "the girlfriend" then I do as gamers.

Hey man, those are just stereotypes. I don't know about you but in MY local GW, everyone is a bodybuilder or football player.

I play warhams to get the white womens.

I play them in the fervent hope that one day I will get to marry an elf!

When girls talk about not wanting "guys who play games", they meant Warhams. Contrary to what you might have believed. In fact, girls love guys who play "The Game" but we, being warhams players, wouldn't know anything about that.

Every time I see "warhams" I can't help but start laughing uncontrollably.

I just got into the hobby, but the one thing that I wouldn't particularly like about a female gamer is... they expect to be respected more THAN anyone else. Simply because they ARE playing the game and have no male genitalia. Then you have the kid who is completely crushed by this female presence and is drooling everywhere. Meanwhile, she's running the game and not even playing right, people are letting her instagib them. On top of that one of your friends[?] will start hitting on her and calling her darling or something you never thought the fool would utter out of his fleshy lips.

That is of course, my experience.

Oh yea', they spawn drama daemons everywhere. EVERYWHERE.

Yeah, Ive seen several female gamers... then again, my Gf plays Warmachine (which she played long before she met me) and is trying her had with my Guard in 40k.

Im just one of the lucky ones
Then again ive never had a problem getting good looking women.... Women tend to melt when I wear my Firefighter pride shirt with my Army Combat Action Badge stuck on.

Here is one, I am tempted to self quote in my sig. Sorry if it rude:

Tacobake wrote:"If you can get them to give you a blow job, you can get them to play your game."

I just got into the hobby, but the one thing that I wouldn't particularly like about a female gamer is... they expect to be respected more THAN anyone else. Simply because they ARE playing the game and have no male genitalia. Then you have the kid who is completely crushed by this female presence and is drooling everywhere. Meanwhile, she's running the game and not even playing right, people are letting her instagib them. On top of that one of your friends[?] will start hitting on her and calling her darling or something you never thought the fool would utter out of his fleshy lips.

That is of course, my experience.

Oh yea', they spawn drama daemons everywhere. EVERYWHERE.

Yeah, that's pretty annoying. I would guess people let them play nonsensically because a) they are afraid that telling them to play right will "turn them off the hobby," or b) they're too smitten by a "gamer girl." Then the girl doesn't play warhammer so much as pointlessly move models around and gets bored, the good players start to ostracize her because she doesn't know how to play, and there's a whole host of problems.
Of course, there are girls who don't need to be told off for playing wrong (and those who are told to play correctly), but honestly most newbs will play wrong if someone doesn't make them play by the rules.
(I'm not talking about "nothing but RAW!" playing by the rules, I'm talking about "why can't I take my saaave" playing by the rules. :S)

Im just one of the lucky ones
Then again ive never had a problem getting good looking women.... Women tend to melt when I wear my Firefighter pride shirt with my Army Combat Action Badge stuck on.

Aw man!
I tried wearing my "Jesus saves, he takes half damage" shirt, and it doesn't do anything!

stonefox wrote:

I've played a lot of DnD with women. Almost none of them attractive. And let me tell you lady and gentlemen the non-attractive ones love to play the super hot character who wants nothing else than to be a sex tease but never give it up. The other one who was kind of hot but a ho was the DMs girlfriend and thus was showered with attention and magic items ruining the game for everyone but her.

Well, guys also do the same thing. That's probably why I could never get into it. "Yes I get that your guy is a huge, macho character that rolls in deep with STR and CHA [contrary to yourself]." I tried playing as the low STR/CHA dude with high DEX who would cut ropes and impale fellow adventurers with heavy gates. I was asked to leave doing that.

I like to be a girl when I role-play.

Kilkrazy wrote:I like to be a girl when I role-play.

Too much info man.

Typeline wrote: The only girl I've ever gamed with who was a complete pleasure and I wish I could sit across a table with her again to throw some dice is Laurel. She was awesome. Cared about what she looked like, but didn't obsess over it. Wanted to enjoy the game for what it was. Didn't play a kind of stereotypical female tease that you usually see. She was awesome.

Find this girl. Marry her. Marry her and do not look back. Do not look back, sir. And if you're not going to, give somebody else her number so that this creature is not wasted.

P.S.: I just read this... I'm a douche.

Yes, yes you are. You are a douche because you're typing about her on an internet forum instead of fething her.

BigToof wrote:So to those guys who are lucky enough to have a woman (or two) who are interested in play with you, the BEST thing you can do it treat them just the same as all the other guys in the shop, just maybe with a little less trash talk.

Aw cmon! Every female I hang out with already knows that I pull no punches. Why the chivalry?
a) If they want to bitch about equality (which I have no problem with btw) then they get to sit through my motor mouth while I stomp their a**es!
b) I didn't start this hobby to pick up women, and I have yet to see a single female gamer that rates above a drunk 5 (sober 3)

All in all I enjoy the game regardless, and the sh*t talking is just an extension of my loudmouthed personality. I don't go overboard, but I like to crack the occasionall joke, or blast them with always classic "did you see that? yes that really did just happen."

I have met very few women who game. Very few. Most of the ones I have met who gamed without just following their SO around, were absolute assassins.

So, without trying to say girls are icky, or we need more girls playing these games, to stay on topic; yeah I'd say they are relatively rare.

There are fundamental differences between men and women, and not just in what hangs between our legs...

*Most* (not of course *all*, by any means - there's a difference between a society norm and a stereotype), men aren't happy just chatting with mates with nothing else to do. They quickly run out of conversation. So - they have a need for social hobbies such as drinking, sports, wargames, etc. to stimulate conversation and generate banter and so forth.

*Most* (not all, again) women tend not to need these props and are happy to socialise without any other excuse to an extent that would bore the pants off *most* (again, not all) men.

Case in point. Most Thursday evenings my mate comes over to play a game with me. We have a casual game lasting an hour or two and shoot the breeze and sink a couple of beers. Quite often my wife will take the opportunity to pop across the road and spend the evening with his wife. They'll not play a game, but instead just chat - probably bitching about all the other women in the village. They may even do it over a cup of tea and not even a *proper* drink!

To that extent, women don't seem to feel the need to engage in social hobbies such as wargaming that men do. Consequently because it tends not to scratch an itch for them, they don't see the point in bothering with it.

Of course, I re-emphasise, this is my observation of social norms. Not anything scientific, and I am well aware that between the two extremes of behaviour I observe, there are a million shades of grey!

Just my beliefs based on wondering why the heck I can't get my wife to join in wargaming with me really. Thank goodness I've got two sons...!

Tacobake wrote:Here is one, I am tempted to self quote in my sig. Sorry if it rude:

Tacobake wrote:"If you can get them to give you a blow job, you can get them to play your game."

Is the inverse true? If I can get someone to game with me...

General Hobbs wrote:But I don't like miniature or role-play gaming with women. And our gaming group eventually came up with a "ban" on allowing women to play.

Nothing like the smell of fresh-baked bigotry in the morning! I think it would be ridiculous to judge everyone on a case-by-case basis.

General Hobbs wrote:

This is gonna end up being somewhat sexist, mysoginist and probably inflammatory....

But I don't like miniature or role-play gaming with women. And our gaming group eventually came up with a "ban" on allowing women to play.

Our experience has been that they are not fun to game with, they bring drama to the club, they are more concerned with socialzing rather then gaming, and just bring down the whole experience.

It's the same when watching football.....hardly any women understand the strategy, and all they do is giggle and talk about watching the men's asses in the tight pants.

Now, play some games like Settlers of Cataan, or Monoply or Boggle, and women are fine to game with...except when they start losing and get bored and whiny.

You could just put the kabosh on whiny melodramatic people rather than type a person
on sex. I've seen the exact behaviors you describe in men as well, you just don't see it
as often because your gaming group has had time to work those behaviors out of them.

Theory: men spend more time wargaming than women because there are already more
men wargaming than women. Men spend more time wargaming than women because more
men have taken part in wars than women historically.

Women know plenty of strategy, it's just they don't know how it applies on a fake battlefield
with fake rules written by people imagining fake wars.

If you think women spend more time sitting around talking without actually doing anything,
just think of who's represented on these forums. We do the same thing with a game and a
hobby that we aren't actually playing at the moment that we post things.

So I agree with part of your post.

I agree with grumpy old fart. Different strokes for different folks, thats it.

stonefox wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:The middle aged overweight trainwrecks that support this hobby don't really attract women to gaming stores. The overweight teen trainwrecks don't help either. Well really overweight trainwrecks of all shapes sizes and ages. I see girls more often at conventions or as "the girlfriend" then I do as gamers.

Hey man, those are just stereotypes. I don't know about you but in MY local GW, everyone is a bodybuilder or football player.

Definitely NOT going to visit you FLGS, I've still got the scars from high school!

Typeline wrote: I will say that in all my years of gaming I have only ever gamed with one woman who wasn't a total drain on the game I was playing. When I see a woman sit down at a gaming table, be it 40k, DnD, or anything that isn't a board game, they have completely ruined it for me. Not the game per se, just the entire experience of the game.

I've only ever played one game of 40k with a woman. She had no idea what was going on, her boyfriend kind of thrust her into it. Seemingly against her will.

I hate to say it, but I'm prejudice from all my experiences with women in the hobby. Many of them have been exactly like this. I've had women who didn't show up to games, women who didn't know the rules, a LOT of women who were forced into it by their SO, or were co-dependently following along, I've had women wreck campaigns by deliberately forfeiting games to the other side. I'm sure that there are wonderful women out there, and some of the play wargames, but I haven't met them, and I've been doing this a long time.

P.S.: I just read this... I'm a douche.

Maybe, but I tend to agree with you, maybe I'm a douche too, or maybe we're just a big douche bag of truthiness!

Kilkrazy wrote:
I like to be a girl when I role-play.

Sounds like you play a lot of MMORPGs (Mostly Men Online Role Playing Girls)

Lint wrote:

BigToof wrote:So to those guys who are lucky enough to have a woman (or two) who are interested in play with you, the BEST thing you can do it treat them just the same as all the other guys in the shop, just maybe with a little less trash talk.

Aw cmon! Every female I hang out with already knows that I pull no punches. Why the chivalry?

Then no kid gloves. Personally, I know that I can be very offensive, so I tend to try to temper it a bit. This goes doubly for the women I've met, in my experience they've more sensitive. So I don't think it's chivalry, any more than it's a matter of treating everybody as well as possible.

Osbad wrote:There are fundamental differences between men and women, and not just in what hangs between our legs...

*Most* (not of course *all*, by any means - there's a difference between a society norm and a stereotype), men aren't happy just chatting with mates with nothing else to do. They quickly run out of conversation. So - they have a need for social hobbies such as drinking, sports, wargames, etc. to stimulate conversation and generate banter and so forth.

*Most* (not all, again) women tend not to need these props and are happy to socialise without any other excuse to an extent that would bore the pants off *most* (again, not all) men.

Maybe, I can tell you that my gf likes to quilt, and that's a huge source of conversation between her and my mother. They spend a ton of time going over fabric, tools, quilting books, etc.

Kilkrazy wrote:

stonefox wrote:

I've played a lot of DnD with women. Almost none of them attractive. And let me tell you lady and gentlemen the non-attractive ones love to play the super hot character who wants nothing else than to be a sex tease but never give it up. The other one who was kind of hot but a ho was the DMs girlfriend and thus was showered with attention and magic items ruining the game for everyone but her.

Well, guys also do the same thing. That's probably why I could never get into it. "Yes I get that your guy is a huge, macho character that rolls in deep with STR and CHA [contrary to yourself]." I tried playing as the low STR/CHA dude with high DEX who would cut ropes and impale fellow adventurers with heavy gates. I was asked to leave doing that.

I like to be a girl when I role-play.

so does stonefox.. that's the ironic part..

malfred wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

This is gonna end up being somewhat sexist, mysoginist and probably inflammatory....

But I don't like miniature or role-play gaming with women. And our gaming group eventually came up with a "ban" on allowing women to play.

Our experience has been that they are not fun to game with, they bring drama to the club, they are more concerned with socialzing rather then gaming, and just bring down the whole experience.

It's the same when watching football.....hardly any women understand the strategy, and all they do is giggle and talk about watching the men's asses in the tight pants.

Now, play some games like Settlers of Cataan, or Monoply or Boggle, and women are fine to game with...except when they start losing and get bored and whiny.

You could just put the kabosh on whiny melodramatic people rather than type a person
on sex. I've seen the exact behaviors you describe in men as well, you just don't see it
as often because your gaming group has had time to work those behaviors out of them.

Theory: men spend more time wargaming than women because there are already more
men wargaming than women. Men spend more time wargaming than women because more
men have taken part in wars than women historically.

Women know plenty of strategy, it's just they don't know how it applies on a fake battlefield
with fake rules written by people imagining fake wars.

If you think women spend more time sitting around talking without actually doing anything,
just think of who's represented on these forums. We do the same thing with a game and a
hobby that we aren't actually playing at the moment that we post things.

So I agree with part of your post.

women spend 85% of the time thinking of doing stuff. men spend 35% of the time thinking of doing stuff. it's a fact women use their brains more than men do, so we need something to occupy the other 65% of the time.. so, we oogle girls, push around plastic soldiers and make up stories about playing against women..

My wife tried SO hard to get into this hobby when we first met. It was painful for me to watch, and I encouraged her to try to find something more entertaining, because she thought she would "participate" be coming to watch me play. Even for me, watching a 40k game is like watching paint dry unless the players are really pushing to keep it going fast. Man, she banged her head against that wall, but the wall won. Now she just likes to shovel the kids off into playlnd so we can paint every so often.

My wife plays and runs D&D games, used to work at a Wizards of the Coast store, and used to play both 40k and Fantays (Dark Eldar and Vamp Counts). She got out of the hobby for a number of reasons, the top was that other gamers where obviously treating her very differently. If they weren't hitting on her the whole game they were carrying out some kind of crazy "ain't no woman gonna beat me at a man's game" vendetta. She did have a number of good normal opponents but the others kept rearing the ugly head. So eventually she just gave up and is content with playing D&D and telling me what a crappy painter I am (then proving it by fixing it in 10 seconds, doh!)

I have known several female gamers that have gone through this, but on the flip side I have also seen the aformention trainwrecks that will ruin any game they come across (table top, rpg, online).

So my advice would be to treat the rare female gamer you come across the same as you would any other.

p.s. Just played in a tournament last month and my first game was against a girl playing a fantasicly painted Sisters of Battle army. And while she wasn't fully experienced with them I thoroughly enjoyed the game and don't think her being a women (smoking hot one at that) had any affect on the game whatsover.

two_heads_talking wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

stonefox wrote:

I've played a lot of DnD with women. Almost none of them attractive. And let me tell you lady and gentlemen the non-attractive ones love to play the super hot character who wants nothing else than to be a sex tease but never give it up. The other one who was kind of hot but a ho was the DMs girlfriend and thus was showered with attention and magic items ruining the game for everyone but her.

Well, guys also do the same thing. That's probably why I could never get into it. "Yes I get that your guy is a huge, macho character that rolls in deep with STR and CHA [contrary to yourself]." I tried playing as the low STR/CHA dude with high DEX who would cut ropes and impale fellow adventurers with heavy gates. I was asked to leave doing that.

I like to be a girl when I role-play.

so does stonefox.. that's the ironic part..

Nice try. You won't get to be big spoon anytime soon.

women spend 85% of the time thinking of doing stuff. men spend 35% of the time thinking of doing stuff. it's a fact women use their brains more than men do, so we need something to occupy the other 65% of the time.. so, we oogle girls, push around plastic soldiers and make up stories about playing against women..

Yep. I'm going to go ahead and assume 90% of these stories are fakeposts.

We've got a goodly amount of women who come into our flgs for game night, but only one of them plays GW games...

She's a pierced, tattooed ex-stripper (I suspect I'm the only other gamer there who knows she used to "dance.") She's freaking awesome.

And poo on you if you don't believe me!

the part time staffer a tmy local GW is a woman

Sgt.Roadkill wrote:the part time staffer a tmy local GW is a woman

back in early 2000 my wife to be walked in to a GW store that had just opened and hiring, and when they found out she played they offered her an assistant manager spot right there!

I think a lot of the attitudes here are horrifying.
I've played RPGs and Wargames with/against MANY women in my time

One was a nearly 70 yr old woman who would sh**-stomp you with her [crappily painted ---BY HER] Necrons back in 4th ed). The other female member of that wargaming group was a NOT smoking-hot but VERY attractive late 30's woman. She could sh** stomp you, too... but with whatever she was playing and in whatever system. She had an incredible grasp pf strategery and rules. If you weren't on top of your game, you were crushed under hers.

As for RPG's... the only times I EVER had a D&D campaign that DIDN'T have females was when they were run at my (or a friend's) house. There were no LOCAL girls who played (that we knew of).

Only one girl I've ever RPGed with was nerdy. A friends wife who played D&D before they met (and they did NOT meet through gaming, either, oddly enough). They ranged from "smoking-hot" to "not particularly attractive." I NEVER experienced the Nerd Rage at them beating someone, and I NEVER saw ANY of them hit on by gaming guys, simply because they were female. Even the "smoking-hot" ones. I guess I was fortunate like that.

Here's what I find the scariest and funniest about most posts in this thread. Everyone who talks about WHY females aren't "allowed" in their group or why females are bad as gamers or anything else related to negativity about females in relation to gaming has blamed it ON the females... but most of the problems that they say female gamers "cause" are ACTIONS TAKEN BY MALE GAMERS.

It sounds to me like MALE GAMERS are the problem with RPG's & Wargames Not females.
Maybe, instead of osctacising them, you can man-up, de-nerdify yourself & friends, start threating these women like PEOPLE and GAMERS and not like "OOh! Look! Wimmins!" Maybe you'll find that it's not as bad as you think.

FWIW, my current D&D group has 2 women. One plays a male fighter (she is in it for the ROLE playing) and the other plays a female thief. NEITHER tries to use her "womanly charms," either IN game or OUT to get what she wants.

So, grow up, people. The problemisn't the women. It's you.

Eric

P.S. The more you talk about how macho and buff and Kewl you and your "rugby playing" gaming buddies are, the less believable you are.
--Although there's only one person in this thread doing it, that really IS a blanket statement. You're not the only gaming geek I've seen do that on the Intrawebz.

People with bad social skills gather into groups of common interest and low standards. Those people then play 40k and act like women are ethereal beings that simply are too different to enjoy the things they enjoy. It has nothing to do with their rudeness, hygiene, looks, interests, or social skills.

Its because of the warhams.

I take a modicum of pride in my cleanliness, appearance, and fitness, and I have women friends (and while single at the moment have had plenty of interaction with the fairer sex in my time). I have also been a ccg/tabletop/mmo gamer heavily since I was 10.

The overweight gamer with bad social skills isn't a stereotype. It's simply the reality of the hobby space. There are always exceptions, as there are in anything (like stonefoxes ironman FLGS) but the sheer fact that the typical gamer wonders why cute girls don't play warhams with him floors me. There is an ammount of social competitiveness and solitude that the game requires that isn't particularly palatable to many women but I know far to many girls that are simply "afraid" of the cheeto stained fingers of the games store goers to ever step in with them.

women spend 85% of the time thinking of doing stuff. men spend 35% of the time thinking of doing stuff. it's a fact women use their brains more than men do, so we need something to occupy the other 65% of the time.. so, we oogle girls, push around plastic soldiers and make up stories about playing against women..

I made up bigoted and non sensical stereotypes too once. True story.

MagickalMemories wrote:P.S. The more you talk about how macho and buff and Kewl you and your "rugby playing" gaming buddies are, the less believable you are.
--Although there's only one person in this thread doing it, that really IS a blanket statement. You're not the only gaming geek I've seen do that on the Intrawebz.

I also play piano, am an awesome cook, have girls rating 8-9 with my arms draped over them on the weekend, and squat max 400. What are your creds?

There are always exceptions, as there are in anything (like stonefoxes ironman FLGS)

I really wish it WAS that way. Then maybe I don't have to go to the gym to see the goods. There's only Dan who plays Rugby, me the lifter, and John the bodybuilder. All the rest are the typical ones. :(

Wow. I just totally had a flashback to that rather disturbing beach volleyball scene in "Top Gun..."

Good. Because it's exactly like that. Usually it's 2v2 but when it becomes 3v3 or 4v4 with a couple frat guys, some of them start doing these weird, oddly homoerotic dances when they score a point. Also high fives.

stonefox wrote:It's fun being able to play some beach volleyball, then take a break and do nerdy stuff, then play some tackle football afterwards.

Wow. I just totally had a flashback to that rather disturbing beach volleyball scene in "Top Gun..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEA-jhwsoGc

I also play piano, am an awesome cook, have girls rating 8-9 with my arms draped over them on the weekend, and squat max 400. What are your creds?

I can fly.

i think stephen lynch says it best

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_hlWl1PKfo&feature=related

enjoy, YMMV

Shuma - Yeah, like I'd believe that.

THT - AWESOME. WOW. I need to get my rapping friend and the campus beatboxing kid together to do that.

Commisar00 wrote:We have a few females who play at the FLGS and most are girlfriends/wives. I think the big problem is that when any girl, let alone a cute girl walks in most of the guys go into staring/dribbling mode and scare them off. Not all of the guys but enough to make things uncomfortable. When people are uncomfortable they don't want to be there and when this feeling is associated with something i.e. gaming they don't want to be a part of it.

This is true. And scares me to death personally. Especially at the game club. ...And on top of that, they automatically assume I have no knowledge of the game or its background. I don't know where you guys are, but here in the middle of Rochester, the wargamers are often downright sexist or just ...

Yeah. It bugs me. They're either awkwardly trying to use pick-up lines, trying to walk me through the game (I know what the Speed of Asuryan is. Thank you, but after the 4th time it's getting a bit repetitive) or trying their best to make me leave with snide comments.

Meh. It's the same on the internets too. I've gotten quite a few unwanted comments. It's like it's not ok to be female and play Warhammer as well. I honestly don't understand the logic behind it.

However, Warhammer doesn't have to be a geek's sport.

I guess me and my friends (Gotten quite a few players, actually. Come to think of it) approaches things from a very casual perspective. We're playing Warhammer Fantasy at the moment because we're attracted to the various ...painting and modeling aspects of the game, in addition to the game itself. My best friend, for example, is working on a King Arthur themed Bretonnian army, complete with each and every Knight of the Round Table as a miniature. We play for fun, we play by the rules, but we're all pretty much students first and gamers second. We're about a 50-50 mix in terms of gender. Current, we've got an Ancient Chinese styled High Elf army, the KotRT themed Bretonnians, some sort of J.R.R. Tolkenesque Dwarven clan and a Zorro/Landsknecht Empire player. A 5th may be joining us shortly with the lost city of El Dorado.

Most of us are still in the small 1-1.5k point range and are just beginning to paint, so we aren't technically "players." We're hobbists.

chicks don't really dig the games, yo.

I object.

Go see some of GW's High Elf displays and tell me if you don't feel a twinge of OMG when you see it. Squee. n_____n

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I like to be a girl when I role-play.

Too much info man.

HA ha ha ha,.... me too LOL

I was a complete ditz Night Elf on purpose in WOW for a year, until we got a voip, then I had to speak, and they found out I wasn't a girl. It was the talk of the guild for a year.

DOH, er...

tee hee!

...

Since I have taken up scrapbooking, aka croping and my candle club is going really well!

[/joking]

I've seen a few, and played one....she was good, her Orks almost got me.

Before we got married, my wife would play VTM with us, but I have never been able to get her into ANY aspect of GW. She has no desire to talk about it what-so-ever, but will at least give me honest opinions of any painting I shove under her nose. I think it pisses her off now though that my daughter is painting with me, and since she's 3 and a half, I'll have plenty of time to corrupt her with the background and fluff that will make her actually care about the game.

I have seen in the past two years 4 people get started in the game, just from reading some of the books, so that is my suggestion....if you want women to play on the table with us, get em interested....give 'em Eisenhorn, or the Horus Heresy novels...if they are into SciFi at ALL then the books will hook them, and that leads to other aspects of the hobby.

That and all players that fall under the stereotypical "gamer" or "fan-boy" tag, should be kept away for at least six months, for the saftey and protection of both parties.....The women won't be uncomfortable or drooled/spittled on, and the boys wont explode from seeing a non-pixelated female form that ISN"T their mother.

They're rare in miniature gaming for one major reason.
Women stop playing with toys by the time they are teenagers.

Oh, maybe...

But what do you call: Knitting, Scrapbooking, Candlemaking, Makeup, Karaoke...

???

Those are called fine arts.

Augustus wrote:Oh, maybe...

But what do you call: Knitting, Scrapbooking, Candlemaking, Makeup, Karaoke...

???

Not toys, I'll tell you that much.

Also, what's wrong with Karaoke?

Nothing,

It's just playing with toys.

I don't know of many women that like hanging out in a place where on a given day, they get to enjoy the heady aroma of body funk unless they're back stage at a rock concert. Add into the mix the players who have all the charisma of the comic book guy from the Simpsons trying to impress them with tales of how good they are at the game, etc. and it kind of adds up why there aren't that many women in the hobby.
It's kind of the looking for an Alpha male type of thing, and most women aren't going to find the version they want in a game store.
That being said, I've seen some gorgeous women in game stores, but the guys they're with are the kind that do something else with their lives along with pushing toy soldiers around.
Most times it's people that are college students, military, or young professionals.
On nights when it's people that are awkward teens or older guys living in their parents basement, the women are absent.

Arondight wrote:Those are called fine arts.

I'd consider Warhams (harhar!) a fine art, painting and assembling isn't the easiest thing in the world.

Anyways, I think other than the dramafemales there are the intelligent ones that intimidate the socially reclusive sect of gamers. Which, is why you probably got flamed. God forbid a nurgle-faced teenage boy be demasculinated [sp?] in front of his "crew".

On another note I'm heading off to join the sausage-fest that is my LGS, huzzah!

Since this thread seems to have gone somewhat into the direction of why more women don't play, may I suggest just asking actual women why they don't get into 40k?
That should just about cut through the possible 8 pages worth of theorizing to come.

I know my better half and her sister went into a GW shop recently but felt insulted straight away as the assistant came up to them and said 'Hi guys' (they look very similar and one was an air hostess until opening her own shop recently...).

Kilkrazy- I found the best way around shoe or clothes shopping with a partner is to not like the first item or the second but love the third. Has always worked for me...

Mick

stonefox wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:P.S. The more you talk about how macho and buff and Kewl you and your "rugby playing" gaming buddies are, the less believable you are.
--Although there's only one person in this thread doing it, that really IS a blanket statement. You're not the only gaming geek I've seen do that on the Intrawebz.

I also play piano, am an awesome cook, have girls rating 8-9 with my arms draped over them on the weekend, and squat max 400. What are your creds?

Well, to start, I'm 10 ft. tall and bullet proof... and that's WITHOUT any alcohol in me.

..and I play piano, guitar, flute AND sing in a rock band, I get hit on by girls rated 10 or 11, but my wife (Angeline Jolie look alike) doesn't like it.
Oh... and I Max squat..... Uhh.... 401.


Eric

Arondight wrote:[his is true. And scares me to death personally. Especially at the game club. ...And on top of that, they automatically assume I have no knowledge of the game or its background. I don't know where you guys are, but here in the middle of Rochester, the wargamers are often downright sexist or just ...

Yeah. It bugs me. They're either awkwardly trying to use pick-up lines, trying to walk me through the game (I know what the Speed of Asuryan is. Thank you, but after the 4th time it's getting a bit repetitive) or trying their best to make me leave with snide comments.

Might I offer a suggestion?
I've seen this done. I've never seen it NOT work.

After about the 3rd "helpful tidbit," respond like this:

"Excuse me? No. Eyes up here, pal. I can't see you with those. There. That's better. Look, I know how to play the game. I know the rules. I know my army. I'll make you a deal, though. Kick my *ss, and THEN you can offer advice all you want. Until them, STFU and play the game."

Eric

Relapse wrote: Since this thread seems to have gone somewhat into the direction of why more women don't play, may I suggest just asking actual women why they don't get into 40k?
That should just about cut through the possible 8 pages worth of theorizing to come.

Well played.

MagickalMemories wrote:

Arondight wrote:[his is true. And scares me to death personally. Especially at the game club. ...And on top of that, they automatically assume I have no knowledge of the game or its background. I don't know where you guys are, but here in the middle of Rochester, the wargamers are often downright sexist or just ...

Yeah. It bugs me. They're either awkwardly trying to use pick-up lines, trying to walk me through the game (I know what the Speed of Asuryan is. Thank you, but after the 4th time it's getting a bit repetitive) or trying their best to make me leave with snide comments.

Might I offer a suggestion?
I've seen this done. I've never seen it NOT work.

After about the 3rd "helpful tidbit," respond like this:

"Excuse me? No. Eyes up here, pal. I can't see you with those. There. That's better. Look, I know how to play the game. I know the rules. I know my army. I'll make you a deal, though. Kick my *ss, and THEN you can offer advice all you want. Until them, STFU and play the game."

Eric

Problem with saying something like that is that you're begging for the karmic foot to go
straight for your mouth. After you make such a bold statement your brain wires short
circuit and you flub a rule.

It's like, a universal law, or something.

Relapse wrote: Since this thread seems to have gone somewhat into the direction of why more women don't play, may I suggest just asking actual women why they don't get into 40k?
That should just about cut through the possible 8 pages worth of theorizing to come.

But that would mean logging off dakka and i cant do that, its addicting!

This is true. And scares me to death personally. Especially at the game club. ...And on top of that, they automatically assume I have no knowledge of the game or its background. I don't know where you guys are, but here in the middle of Rochester, the wargamers are often downright sexist or just ...

Yeah. It bugs me. They're either awkwardly trying to use pick-up lines, trying to walk me through the game (I know what the Speed of Asuryan is. Thank you, but after the 4th time it's getting a bit repetitive) or trying their best to make me leave with snide comments.

In the "old store" i frequented we tried to prevent some of that, though we were a bit elitest at times as well. The store owner was a bit harsh towards the highpower neckbeard crowd also. Unfortunatly the store eventually got a reputation as being hardline and lost a lot of business through this and plenty of other things. In a gaming store you sort of need to accept anyone that wants into the culture, it's far from a money industry and you can't afford to be discerning when it comes to paying customers.

"Excuse me? No. Eyes up here, pal. I can't see you with those. There. That's better. Look, I know how to play the game. I know the rules. I know my army. I'll make you a deal, though. Kick my *ss, and THEN you can offer advice all you want. Until them, STFU and play the game."

I especially approve of the "STFU" part. The acronym is just perfectly concise. In fact, just saying "STFU, I know the rules!" should be enough. It ties with GTFO for world's greatest acronym.

I know my better half and her sister went into a GW shop recently but felt insulted straight away as the assistant came up to them and said 'Hi guys' (they look very similar and one was an air hostess until opening her own shop recently...).

Why were they feeling insulted?
Does "guys" refer only to men in your part of the world?

In the "old store" i frequented we tried to prevent some of that, though we were a bit elitest at times as well. The store owner was a bit harsh towards the highpower neckbeard crowd also. Unfortunatly the store eventually got a reputation as being hardline and lost a lot of business through this and plenty of other things. In a gaming store you sort of need to accept anyone that wants into the culture, it's far from a money industry and you can't afford to be discerning when it comes to paying customers.

This is a pretty good point.
Stores can rarely afford to kick out a bunch of people who aren't blatantly problematic, even if they're annoying or unfriendly.

Relapse wrote: I don't know of many women that like hanging out in a place where on a given day, they get to enjoy the heady aroma of body funk unless they're back stage at a rock concert. Add into the mix the players who have all the charisma of the comic book guy from the Simpsons trying to impress them with tales of how good they are at the game, etc. and it kind of adds up why there aren't that many women in the hobby.
It's kind of the looking for an Alpha male type of thing, and most women aren't going to find the version they want in a game store.
That being said, I've seen some gorgeous women in game stores, but the guys they're with are the kind that do something else with their lives along with pushing toy soldiers around.
Most times it's people that are college students, military, or young professionals.
On nights when it's people that are awkward teens or older guys living in their parents basement, the women are absent.

Bingo.

To some of us, it's a hobby like ..I don't know, bonsai or stamp collections. The fact that it's a game makes it a lot sweeter.

To answer someone else's question: I think fantasy draws more of the humanities or the literature/mythology/history-savvy girls because we can identify with it better. If I see a Bretonnian army, I go "Oh, cool. That's like this one scene from King Arthur stories." While 40k is mildly entertaining but otherwise feels "geeky" and reminds us all too much of Star Wars/Trek debates.

"Excuse me? No. Eyes up here, pal. I can't see you with those. There. That's better. Look, I know how to play the game. I know the rules. I know my army. I'll make you a deal, though. Kick my *ss, and THEN you can offer advice all you want. Until them, STFU and play the game."

Nah, I'm usually quite friendly. I normally hold my tongue and wait for the guy to finish. (Usually much, much longer than expected.) My friend's a lot more caustic though. To quote her:

"Maybe if you weren't staring like the uncouth youth you are, you'd have noticed her forces holding off the majority of your forces."

And of course,

"Now, I charge your Slann-Magepriest with Luthor and my Reiksguard. "

Crowning moment of awesome. I think. He ditched the game after his Slann died, claiming that we were being too girly and distracting.

Augustus wrote:Oh, maybe...

But what do you call: Knitting, Scrapbooking, Candlemaking, Makeup, Karaoke...

???

Karaoke!?!

malfred wrote:Problem with saying something like that is that you're begging for the karmic foot to go
straight for your mouth. After you make such a bold statement your brain wires short
circuit and you flub a rule.

It's like, a universal law, or something.

That's true... but it's all right.
He's already been put in his place and, if she did it right, he won't have the nads to bring it up. Even if he does, it'll be in a VERY different tone than initially.

If, somehow, she's gaming against Uber-nerd, who has overcome the embarassment of having a girl tell him off and starts his stuff back up, she just says it again with an added "I thought I told you this ONCE, already. Listen closer this time and PAY ATTENTION..."


Eric

Mick A wrote:I know my better half and her sister went into a GW shop recently but felt insulted straight away as the assistant came up to them and said 'Hi guys' (they look very similar and one was an air hostess until opening her own shop recently...).

Kilkrazy- I found the best way around shoe or clothes shopping with a partner is to not like the first item or the second but love the third. Has always worked for me...

Mick

It depends on the price of the third item.

Arondight wrote:
Bingo.
To some of us, it's a hobby like ..I don't know, bonsai or stamp collections. The fact that it's a game makes it a lot sweeter.

That's what it is for me... A hobby..an escape from reality.. No job to think about ..no bills to think about... gets my mind
off all things real.
As for women playing ... I have played since the late 80's... (yes I am one of the old dogs) and have played a few women
in my time..One thing is the standard with them.. most are only playing because their boyfriend / husband pushed them in
to it... there was a few that had genuine interest in the game.. but once they saw the cost, time, environment (gamer funk)
involved they lost interest.
I welcome anyone to the hobby if the have genuine interest.. but most i have seen would not continue to play the games
after the person that got them into it stopped playing..but that applies to not just girlfriends playing but cousins, brothers
or anyone else.
My wife has little interest in the games... we have our own interests together and I feel I don't have to pull her into the games
to do something with her. She does go to the shops with me and but she thinks something bad had happened in the game store because of the over bearing bad smell.
Years ago a local comic shop was ran by a husband and wife... they ended in divorce and the wife tried to keep the
shop running... Not even a week later after they where separated every single mama boy basement buddy was hitting
on her. She was a gamer and had true interest in the games but in the end the shop finally did close.

when I was a redshirt some 8 years ago there was actually an unofficial policy of not hiring female staff. I was told this by the cell manager that this was because the "bedroom commandos" (his words not mine) have a hard enough time speaking to lads let alone a female!

make of that what you will.

That's pretty sad.
I know a few socially awkward but nice gamer lads, and exposure to friendly women in a social context generally does wonders for them.

I feel I must point out that the fairer sex has it's share of annoying nerds too, though they are a smaller population!

I know a few socially awkward but nice gamer lads, and exposure to friendly women in a social context generally does wonders for them.

I know the same and I just find that it makes them more annoying with the internet catchphrases because OMG SOME GIRLS "GET" IT TOO.

MagickalMemories wrote:

stonefox wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:P.S. The more you talk about how macho and buff and Kewl you and your "rugby playing" gaming buddies are, the less believable you are.
--Although there's only one person in this thread doing it, that really IS a blanket statement. You're not the only gaming geek I've seen do that on the Intrawebz.

I also play piano, am an awesome cook, have girls rating 8-9 with my arms draped over them on the weekend, and squat max 400. What are your creds?

Well, to start, I'm 10 ft. tall and bullet proof... and that's WITHOUT any alcohol in me.

..and I play piano, guitar, flute AND sing in a rock band, I get hit on by girls rated 10 or 11, but my wife (Angeline Jolie look alike) doesn't like it.
Oh... and I Max squat..... Uhh.... 401.


Eric

You're trying too hard.

stonefox wrote:

I know a few socially awkward but nice gamer lads, and exposure to friendly women in a social context generally does wonders for them.

I know the same and I just find that it makes them more annoying with the internet catchphrases because OMG SOME GIRLS "GET" IT TOO.

MagickalMemories wrote:

stonefox wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:P.S. The more you talk about how macho and buff and Kewl you and your "rugby playing" gaming buddies are, the less believable you are.
--Although there's only one person in this thread doing it, that really IS a blanket statement. You're not the only gaming geek I've seen do that on the Intrawebz.

I also play piano, am an awesome cook, have girls rating 8-9 with my arms draped over them on the weekend, and squat max 400. What are your creds?

Well, to start, I'm 10 ft. tall and bullet proof... and that's WITHOUT any alcohol in me.

..and I play piano, guitar, flute AND sing in a rock band, I get hit on by girls rated 10 or 11, but my wife (Angeline Jolie look alike) doesn't like it.
Oh... and I Max squat..... Uhh.... 401.


Eric

You're trying too hard.

You guys sure can do a lot, but can you fly?

ShumaGorath wrote:

stonefox wrote:

I know a few socially awkward but nice gamer lads, and exposure to friendly women in a social context generally does wonders for them.

I know the same and I just find that it makes them more annoying with the internet catchphrases because OMG SOME GIRLS "GET" IT TOO.

MagickalMemories wrote:

stonefox wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:P.S. The more you talk about how macho and buff and Kewl you and your "rugby playing" gaming buddies are, the less believable you are.
--Although there's only one person in this thread doing it, that really IS a blanket statement. You're not the only gaming geek I've seen do that on the Intrawebz.

I also play piano, am an awesome cook, have girls rating 8-9 with my arms draped over them on the weekend, and squat max 400. What are your creds?

Well, to start, I'm 10 ft. tall and bullet proof... and that's WITHOUT any alcohol in me.

..and I play piano, guitar, flute AND sing in a rock band, I get hit on by girls rated 10 or 11, but my wife (Angeline Jolie look alike) doesn't like it.
Oh... and I Max squat..... Uhh.... 401.


Eric

You're trying too hard.

You guys sure can do a lot, but can you fly?

More to the point, why the need to inpress "gamer geeks" with tales of prowess?

ShumaGorath wrote:

You guys sure can do a lot, but can you fly?

Only on days ending in Y.. And then only when the moon is out and only if there's a phonebooth to change cloths in.. What would superman do in a world with no phonebooths?

Port-a-potties.

For when you really have to go (somewhere, anywhere for God's sake).

malfred wrote:If you think women spend more time sitting around talking without actually doing anything,
just think of who's represented on these forums. We do the same thing with a game and a
hobby that we aren't actually playing at the moment that we post things.

Well, we still need a mutually accepted topic of interest to banter about. And in anycase - I don't banter on wargames forums in my spare time - I do it when I'm skiving at work. So that doesn't count.

And in the case of me and my mate, largely the game is more of an excuse. Quite often we'll put the stuff out on the table, and have only got half way through the 1st turn before its time to turn in because all we've done all evening is spout bollocks about crap and take the p*ss all night, rather than actually do any game play. "Oh, lets call it a draw!" is about as competitive as it gets. Which is fine. But if my mate just rang up and said "can I come over and just chat for 2 hours" I'd have thought he'd caught gay!

ShumaGorath wrote:

stonefox wrote:

I know a few socially awkward but nice gamer lads, and exposure to friendly women in a social context generally does wonders for them.

I know the same and I just find that it makes them more annoying with the internet catchphrases because OMG SOME GIRLS "GET" IT TOO.

MagickalMemories wrote:

stonefox wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:P.S. The more you talk about how macho and buff and Kewl you and your "rugby playing" gaming buddies are, the less believable you are.
--Although there's only one person in this thread doing it, that really IS a blanket statement. You're not the only gaming geek I've seen do that on the Intrawebz.

I also play piano, am an awesome cook, have girls rating 8-9 with my arms draped over them on the weekend, and squat max 400. What are your creds?

Well, to start, I'm 10 ft. tall and bullet proof... and that's WITHOUT any alcohol in me.

..and I play piano, guitar, flute AND sing in a rock band, I get hit on by girls rated 10 or 11, but my wife (Angeline Jolie look alike) doesn't like it.
Oh... and I Max squat..... Uhh.... 401.


Eric

You're trying too hard.

You guys sure can do a lot, but can you fly?

Not me but I DO have to brace myself when I fart, or I'll be thrown about 5 feet forward.
That count?

Eric

Relapse wrote:More to the point, why the need to inpress "gamer geeks" with tales of prowess?

Bingo!


DING DING DING DING DING


And the November 2008 "I get it" award goes to... :drum roll:

Relapse!!!!

Excellent post, Relapse. I agree whole heartedly.


Eric

Relapse wrote:
More to the point, why the need to inpress "gamer geeks" with tales of prowess?

The most macho (i.e. fattest) geek gets to be the caboose in the man train.

2 heads: He'd be a streakin streaker.

A lot of girls I know play or at least collect Magic the Gathering. None of them competivily, we have four girls in our RPG club at school of which two are decent looking and one who actually plays while the other just likes to roleplay a drunk striptease. (Four characters and counting...) The other two know what they are about and actually do play.One is really shy and the other is really friendly.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't think GW makes enough effort to draw women in. I've noticed when we go into shops the staff immediately speak to me but not to my wife, even though she has an interest in painting and game playing too, though I've never actually played Warhammer itself with her.

The attitude is that women there are either buying gifts or just following their man around. Well that's an impolite assumption to make IMO. Even if it is the case they should at first engage them like they do the men and ask if they paint or play and what their interests are, because that's what they do whenever a man walks in. To do otherwise is sexist.

Man do I know THAT feeling!

I recently visited a battle bunker with my boyfriend that we'd never been to before, and there were two redshirts there at the time. One kept chatting my boyfriend up about his armies, and when we wandered near the second redshirt and he immediately asked my boyfriend about his armies, I couldn't take it! I said, "You know, nobody's asked me, but I play too, and I've got an Eldar army!" He cracked up at that and apologized. I told him not to worry but that I was feeling left out and just wanted to put in my 0.02.

Of course I realize that 40k is generally a 'boys club' and don't take it personally, and he knew I was just teasing.

Those kinds of things just don't bother me.

two_heads_talking wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

You guys sure can do a lot, but can you fly?

Only on days ending in Y.. And then only when the moon is out and only if there's a phonebooth to change cloths in.. What would superman do in a world with no phonebooths?

Use the alley?

Funny as it might seem, my first introduction to GW stuff was back in 1988, and was thanks to a female GW employee at the Laurel Mall GW store in Maryland. I remember her very distinctly for three reasons: 1) She was a gamer, 2) She was gorgeous, and 3) She was a Rush fanatic, like myself.

The GW stores that I frequently now in the Chicago area are pretty decent. The one here in Oak Park, whenever my wife and I go there, they ALWAYS greet my wife first. I mean, I guess I can understand that - she's WAY better-looking than I am, afterall. My wife does paint, but doesn't play. I myself do a lot more playing than painting.

There is at least one female employee at the Bunker in Downers Grove/Lombard, as well (last time I visited), and there are a few female customers that frequent the store - one of them at least is a vicious Blood Bowl player and painter, too.

Personally, I think it's awesome. The hobby might be dominated by males, but there's plenty of room for the ladies, of course! I know a few males in other gaming systems that get somewhat unnerved/intimidated when they go up against a female opponent.

Or maybe it's our Hello Kitty Lion Chariots and other quirky things.

I'm making a Repeater Chainsaw Thrower right now for my High Elves using Space Marine chainsword bits.

Personally, I think it's awesome. The hobby might be dominated by males, but there's plenty of room for the ladies, of course! I know a few males in other gaming systems that get somewhat unnerved/intimidated when they go up against a female opponent.

If only Maine could sport those kinds of numbers.

Arondight wrote:I'm making a Repeater Chainsaw Thrower right now for my High Elves using Space Marine chainsword bits.

This is just about one of the coolest ideas I've heard as of late.