I think everyone should make a point to read these posts.

http://yesthetruthhurts.blogspot.com/2008/11/baltimore-gt.html

http://yesthetruthhurts.blogspot.com/2008/11/cheating.html

http://yesthetruthhurts.blogspot.com/2008/11/dice-size-cheating.html


These posts are right on, and it's a disgrace to the community.

Discuss. Till they lock it.

Stelek will never lock it - it's his site you're linking to!

That said, it's weak sauce that these people have to resort to blatant cheating to win.

IMO, if GW would just have the stones to eject and perma-ban a couple cheaters at each event, it'd do wonders for the community.

Wow 15 years of playing this game. For the most part I have stayed away from the majority of forums. Than I see stuff posted like this and I remember again why I stayed away. Seek therapy. There are some serious anger managment issues that need to be resolved if you are that concerned about this stuff. Its just a game.

this thread is going to flameville, population: us

biztheclown wrote:http://yesthetruthhurts.blogspot.com/2008/11/dice-size-cheating.html

This one is just ridiculous and a bunch of QQ'ing.

And this is neither News, nor Rumors.

Please post things in appropriate sections.

Sending to Dakka Discussions

My roomate is a bit paranoid, and he's long had complaints about dice rolling, so it's not just from one source.

I think there are some games that can be played to gain a statistical advantage. I don't know to what extent they occur, as I do not have a network of spies or a photographic memory, but I know they are both possible and difficult to detect.

I am glad someone posted this.

I agree people need to take chill pills and enjoy the game...

BUT NOT AT TOURNAMENTS FFS!

This is where the nest of the best are supposed to be.

This is why steroids is illegal in professional sports, gives an unfair advatage compared to those who play naturally.

Pathetic if you ask me...

my lucky dice are black squared edged small chessex dice :(

You can't even buy them anymore.

I used big dice.....and I placed in the bottom 10. My cunning plan did not work....

I used to use big black vegas dice with the sharp edges. I rolled them as normal... Not pressing together as was mentioned in the blog. If anyone wants them I would be more than glad to give them away for free because they really suck when I used them... They weren't just a little bit bad... They were horrid.

If you see someone holding their dice together and dumping them on the table then grow some balls and call them it. Two years ago GW took someone's dice and dumped them in a bucket of water to see if they were weighted. So obviously GW does not condone this type of cheating with dice.

Well you that if Stelek is posting about Baltimore he is hard up for any attention he can muster. He wasn't there and is only posting rumors. It's pretty lame to say the least. In fact anyone who was not there is and spouting off about it is also helping to spread the rumors. There have been various accounts of what happened and many of them just don't match up. This is what they call a character assassination. It's quite petty people hiding behind the Internet without the balls to say or identify who they really are. The accused has given his name in public on this forum... That is a lot more than you can say for any of his anon accusers. I think there should be accountability on the Internet. The Internet should not be a place for arm chair generals to safely attack others while hiding their true identity.

Before you chime in why not do the following:

State who you are, verify if you were present at the Ard Boyz event and tell us if you are simply repeating what you heard. If you were there and saw something that looked fishy did you talk to the accused for his side of the story? I doubt it, I really doubt it. It's a case of sour grapes and unfortunately people are safe to slander others in an all out hate campaign. Sad really.

G

at baltimore I carefully stacked and rolled all 68 big dice when my berzerkers charged lysander in game 4. I am sure most people at baltimore heard my opponent as i ended up causing 19 wounds to him with my crafty cheating dice.

it is all sour grapes.
I had a great time and would gladly play any of the top players. they win because they are smart. they don't cheat

I wasn't at 'Ard Boyz, but...

If somebody is deliberately using undersized bases to gain tactical advantage...

If somebody is working the referees to get a ruling that goes counter to their Codex...

And they go on to "win" the event...

I'd call Shenanigains!

BTW, the die-rolling thing isn't too hard: bring a dice tower, or a tray and only accept dice from the tower or in the tray.

It seems that Biz is somewhat paranoid about having his post locked...

Cheating is one of the mayor things that gives competative players a bad name and makes pepole not go to tournaments. This is something that should be fought and punished really hard because in the end it is what makes tournaments so small, when there are so many players around really.

This is either if you are using low handed dice throws(wich are illgeal in almost all casinos in the world for a reason), creative modelling, messuring "wrong" in your favour, working the judges.. or claiming a judge ruled your way without actually have gotten the ruling.. Or any of about a 1000 ways you can cheat.

Whats really saddening to see is the lax attitude from pepole in responsible positions, orginizers or GW spokespersons. Sure, it will be an unpleasant buissness but the consequences of letting such a person keep his "win"and be allowed to participate in more competitions is alot worse, it actually drives pepole away. Banning them and stripping them of their achivements is the only way and is the way its handled in other sports, but here for some reason the excuse is usually "Its just a game".

If anyone wants them I would be more than glad to give them away for free because they really suck when I used them... They weren't just a little bit bad... They were horrid.

Yea I remember those in the Chicago GT of 2007. You couldn't hit or hurt my rhinos with your rockets. An you did always pick them up and shake them when you used them.

I was recentetly at a tournament were the year before I played a guy who had dice with only 4,5, and 6 on them. So this year the guys at the tournament said that you had to share your dice. So if your opponent wanted to roll or use your dice he could. This would totally fix any problems with that. Also what does the size of a base matter? I mean common the tournaments are for fun and to get a challenge. But if somebody has to make there base a different size to gain some tacital advantage the I say let them. I will make my defeat of you all the more sweeter. LOL

So next time you go to a tournament just say to your opponent "Hey man. There has been so crazy stuff going around about dice rolling and people having "fixed dice" so if you want to use my dice at any point in the game then go for it."

Otherwise you guys should stop whinning about this stupid crap. "cheaters never prospire" So if he cheated so what. Look to yourself and your own Integrity.

I say congratulatoins to the Wrecking Crew. Apparently they have figured out a formula for success in the 40k world. I would love to get an opportunity to play some of those guys in a tournament. I always love to look for the next challenge.

Well, he's had 2 similar posts locked already. With all likelihood, this will be locked by Monday, too.

Good.

corwindal5 wrote:

Otherwise you guys should stop whinning about this stupid crap. "cheaters never prospire" So if he cheated so what. Look to yourself and your own Integrity.

I say congratulatoins to the Wrecking Crew. Apparently they have figured out a formula for success in the 40k world. I would love to get an opportunity to play some of those guys in a tournament. I always love to look for the next challenge.

WTF!, So you are congratulating them for gaming the system and cheating to win?

Then have have the nerve to tell us to shut up and mind are own business?

Dude i that is all you got from that then well.......ok. I am not congratulating anyone for cheating. I am saying that without valid proof all you are is making yourself look bad. You are also makeing yourself look ignorant. All this stuff is just stupid. Thats all I have to say about that.

Cheating in games is a legitimate topic of discussion.

As long as the thread does not become a flamefest or an accusation against specific individuals, I see no reason to lock it.

Dakka is not a court of gamer justice. It can't take evidence, make a judgement and hand down a sentence.

I realise feelings run high on the subject. Even so, players cannot hope to come to Dakka and have a trial of specific allegations of cheating.

It is more constructive to look at ways of preventing cheating -- for example, rules about rolling, standardised dice and dice cups in tournaments.

Any good size tournament could have a couple of bricks of custom dice made up by Chessex and give them away as part of the entry fee. Cheap picnic plastic cups could be provided to all tables for rattling the dice. A simple set of dice rules could be put into the entry pack and FAQ.

There was another thread a few weeks back about good and bad dice rolling practices. How about making an Article out of that?

Kallbrand wrote:Cheating is one of the mayor things that gives competative players a bad name and makes pepole not go to tournaments.

Spoken like a true example of someone who's never been to a GT level event.

While cheating may be an issue, knowledge of the rules (including enemy codexes) is generally enough to protect onself from cheating at an event.

I've been going to GT's since '97 or so and while I've encountered A-hole players, some of which would 'stretch' the rules, I've never encountered a blatant cheater dice or otherwise. I'm not so dense as not to notice it either. (on dice I mean)

This is not to say that it never happens! However, in 10+ years of hitting 2+ GT level events a year I havent encountered it personally in any of my own games. Any accusations of competative players being cheaters or having a "bad name" are completely unfounded, and people not going to tournements to avoid cheating probably have some other reason for not going....avoidance of cheating isnt a reason for not going.

The issue of cheating simply isnt that big a problem, its probably about as big as theft in the hall of ones models. Does it happen? Yes, on some seldom occasions it might. Is it something to be fearful of? Not really. Vigilance is protection enough.

I was at Baltimore and the loudest scuttlebutt of cheating is now, almost a week after the event, online. I didnt hear anything about it during the tournement accept from a certain Dark Eldar player that played in the 'Ard Boyz (and we've all heard this story by now) when we were all getting loaded in the hotel room after gaming was over. One side of the story, perhaps he was cheated, perhaps there was a misunderstanding where he felt cheated.

I think its a problem, I just dont think its a BIG problem at major events.

(Of course, I'm in the Wrecking Crew however, so I'm a dirty cheater anyway I guess.)

biztheclown has an axe to grind against the WC because one of our members crushed him in the final round of the gladiator at Adepticon this year and he was going into it tied for 1st place. Petty. Very petty.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:biztheclown has an axe to grind against the WC because one of our members crushed him in the final round of the gladiator at Adepticon this year and he was going into it tied for 1st place. Petty. Very petty.

G

There's always a bigger fish.

yes it was a bitter pill indeed.



G

The winner of 'Ard Boyz admitted he cheated. He pleaded ignorance. It was pathetic to witness the amount of people on this forum who defended him.

he did not admit to cheating.... There was confusion on the rules for DoW due to a semi finals ruling.

G

Nothing to see here, move along.

The winner admitted that he did not divide his army; he admitted to using smaller bases. There is some dispute about if he actually set 2 troops and 1 hq on the table. Give the facts and the posts of the winner himself, GW be thankful they are not facing litigation.

For the sake of the livelyhood of this forum.

LET IT GO.

Well I'm certain you're all cheaters, especially you Deadshane1: just the look of that face on your avatar says it all..what thats an actor?...er never mind...

olympia wrote:The winner admitted that he did not divide his army; he admitted to using smaller bases. There is some dispute about if he actually set 2 troops and 1 hq on the table. Give the facts and the posts of the winner himself, GW be thankful they are not facing litigation.

Blatant lies and not telling the whole story to spin it darkly.

G

I roll well over average with my new dice (from the GW Dice Cube).

They are standard dice, and I just roll well with them. Does make me a cheat? Nope, it makes me a spawny git.

What those articles suggest is quite simple 'can't handle losing? Don't play in a tournament'

As for the accusations of gareth cheating yet again, lets look at it once more.

As for the DoW deployment. He had it ruled the same way in the semis, with out asking a judge, so its best to ask. For those who say, its clear as day you cant do that, then you dont remember last years Ard Boyz. One of the missions forced all DS to set up on the table. This included DPs, Termis, and Chaos Generic Demons. So there is a precedent for screwey missions.

As for the bases. How is it cheating? He had both 40mm and 60mm ones. He asked his opponents which to use.Im sorry but I remeber the main rulebook saying you can use differant sized bases so long as you have consent. His opponents also didnt agree to the smaller ones, they chose them. He said which would you rather me use, not is it ok if I put them on 40mm bases.

As to the Dice one, that is so laughable. To accuse people pf cheating by using bigger dice. I work in a casino. I can tell you a lot about dice

Kilkrazy wrote:

As long as the thread does not become a flamefest or an accusation against specific individuals, I see no reason to lock it.

This thread is another attack on WC made by some disgruntled players who lost to them this year. They are using Gareth as the scapegoat.

G

Darkness wrote:As for the accusations of gareth cheating yet again, lets look at it once more.

As for the DoW deployment. He had it ruled the same way in the semis, with out asking a judge, so its best to ask. For those who say, its clear as day you cant do that, then you dont remember last years Ard Boyz. One of the missions forced all DS to set up on the table. This included DPs, Termis, and Chaos Generic Demons. So there is a precedent for screwey missions.

As for the bases. How is it cheating? He had both 40mm and 60mm ones. He asked his opponents which to use.Im sorry but I remeber the main rulebook saying you can use differant sized bases so long as you have consent. His opponents also didnt agree to the smaller ones, they chose them. He said which would you rather me use, not is it ok if I put them on 40mm bases.

As to the Dice one, that is so laughable. To accuse people pf cheating by using bigger dice. I work in a casino. I can tell you a lot about dice

I can kind of see his point about square edged dice though. As he pointed out, in Craps, you are meant to hit the far end of the table. The squared edges make the dice roll differently, and also one would assume prevent 'cocked' dice. In any Tournament where prizes are up for grabs, cash or not, there should be more standardisation in the random parts. Perhaps the organisers should supply the dice, neatly preventing any accusations of dodgy dice.

olympia wrote: GW be thankful they are not facing litigation.

...for a tournement that is absolutly free with paid employees of GW working it. Not only that, but with scads of prize support included.

Dude, I dont think they OWE anybody a thing. You might be cheated all the way through the tournement, however there's no legal paperwork, no signed agreements....NOTHING LEGAL.

Litigation.....you sound like a jerk.

If you work in a casino then maybe you know about underhanded rolls also and how that works? You probably know there are quite specific rules about what dice you can use and how to roll. Im just a gambling freak not even working there and I been to lots of places that, none that allows it. Not very easy to regulate in amateur toysoldier games though.

And yes, you can actually sue organisers of events and competetions even if they are free, if they are breaking any laws or any parts of any agreement. (I have no idea about the laws or anything about in this specific case tho)

Not knowing a lot about tournaments I'm suprised to learn that you can bring your own dice. Can you imagine a casino doing that? Dice should be issued by the tournament organisers to standardise things.

And controlled dice shots are perfectly possible, even with regular dice. Though it takes practice to do properly, there's more to it than dropping the dice on the table.

Mod mode:

In line with Killkrazy trying to keep the thread open. Lets keep it generic please and not go after specific people. Thats already been done at this point.

Mod mode off

EDIT - Was in the process of replying to a poster before mod request, so I'll save it for another thread.

On the other part of the topic, what can be done about it?

The biggest thing is to ofc. having the organizers responcible for investigating cheating and reporting it in whenever found and the person in question banned from future events.

After more thinking I guess plastic camping cups and standard GW dice for everyone would solve the dicerolling, if that is such a huge problem.

Here is a good anti cheater policy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZmuUGY-sZ0

/Grindah

Kallbrand wrote:
And yes, you can actually sue organisers of events and competetions even if they are free, if they are breaking any laws or any parts of any agreement. (I have no idea about the laws or anything about in this specific case tho)

GW hasnt broken any laws, and fufilled their agreement, even assuming the tournement was rife with cheating. Thats my point.

GW agreed to host a tournement with prize support for the winners, they also agreed to have judges onhand to make rules decisions when needed and approached.

The idea of a lawsuit concerning these allegations of cheating at the 'Ard Boyz is ridiculous at best. Ignorant nerd-rage at worst.

Deadshane1 is right on that. this does not rise to any sort of legal standard here. The thought of a suit in this regard would be interesting, as in interesting in the amount of legal fees you'd pony up up when their attorneys hit you with discovery. Then there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

(you sure you aren't a cheater Deadshane?).

If you arent cheating, you arent trying.

alleged WC motto

What should have happened:

If you don't agree that what your opponent is doing within the rules, ask a judge (even if your opponent says he already asked a judge, you didn't hear it from the judge yourself). Accept the ruling. Don't just say yeah ok and then bitch about it afterwards because you didn't have the balls to ask a judge (and you'd have to not have any balls to be afraid to ask a judeg).

If you don't like the way an opponent is rolling his dice, ask him to roll them instead of dropping them - dropping is not rolling. Hell, bring a large cup with you and ask them to use it and use it yourself.

Base size? If you're getting beat because of the size of the bases your opponent is using, you've got more problems then just base sizes.

Just to sum up: ask a judge or ask a couple of judges to confer and accept the ruling - no bitching. If you're paranoid about the dice, have both of you use the same dice and a cup to roll them. Learn how to play.

budro wrote:
Base size? If you're getting beat because of the size of the bases your opponent is using, you've got more problems then just base sizes.

.

Amen brother, go tell it on the mountain!

Green Blow Fly wrote:

They are using Gareth as the scapegoat.

G

Kinda like how he tried to use the judge as his scapegoat?

Pot, meet kettle

Base size? If you're getting beat because of the size of the bases your opponent is using, you've got more problems then just base sizes.

Well, this will not turn the game in itself but if you add some other cheating stuff to the mix this could be a game breaker.
Say you have the smaller bases, combine that with some creative measuring and top it off with loaded dice then it becomes a problem.

/Grindah

I hope this convinces people to sign up for the GWUS community boards and to spam requests for a standardized tournament judging test. I'm still surprised GW doesn't have this. It should have at least 50 questions inspired by a document such as yakface's INAT or any other such writeup that has many ambiguous rules.

Green Blow Fly wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

As long as the thread does not become a flamefest or an accusation against specific individuals, I see no reason to lock it.

This thread is another attack on WC made by some disgruntled players who lost to them this year. They are using Gareth as the scapegoat.

G

Yes because there is no legit discussion about this. All WC members are perfect little angels and would never cheat.

Abusing basesizes can be crippling if used in the right conditions, think spirithosts in Fantasy back when it was legal to have how large bases you wanted.

And some pepole still dont understand underhanded dice throws, ITS NOT DROPPING THEM. Hell, if that was the case anyone would figure it out instantly.. Its a special way to roll your dice, pretty much like fake shuffling cards. Search the net for it.

yeah,
bigdice drops, base sizes and dodgy codex 'rulings' are all valid topics for discussion, I'm glad I've learned about them!
No way would i have accepted the smaller bases sizes?

budro wrote:Base size? If you're getting beat because of the size of the bases your opponent is using, you've got more problems then just base sizes.

Darkness wrote:As for the bases. How is it cheating? He had both 40mm and 60mm ones. He asked his opponents which to use....

Why was he carrying two sizes of base? if he had the 60mm bases he should have used them?

Green Blow Fly wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

As long as the thread does not become a flamefest or an accusation against specific individuals, I see no reason to lock it.

This thread is another attack on WC made by some disgruntled players who lost to them this year. They are using Gareth as the scapegoat.

G

This is the first time I saw they guys name... I think your trying to get the thread locked??? Funny that you being in the Wreaking Crew...


PaniC...

Come to the Friendly Side of Gaming.

Is much more fun, and does not induce raised blood pressure.

Let the Wrecking Crew have their own little games where they can high five each other to their hearts content.

As far as dice goes....just watch for it and ask your opponent to make a full throw and bounce off of something. Craps tables have rules and mechanisms to ensure random results. Sure, there are people who swear they can make a controlled throw in the casino, but all we know for sure is they are making a lot of money selling books.

My FLGS sells a great little dice corral to roll dice in, and I find that using that evens things out nicely. It's almost impossible to roll without bouncing dice off an edge.

LOL....

So...if you win a tournament - you are a cheater....

If your dice roll well - you are a cheater.....

If you are part of the WC - you are a cheater.....

If you win any other awards...you obviously had to cheat or collude to get it...

If you are Deadshane - then you are DEFINATELY a cheater

And GW is the head colluder - so let's sue them...

Welcome to Peyton Place!

To be honest, after Wrecking Crews Pro/Celeb back slapping contest on these very boards, I can see why people don't like them.

My name is Darrell Allen. I was at the 'Ardboyz. And I pulled dead last. I used small dice. That must be why I lost! I demand GW host a re-tourney! I should have won!

In all seriousness, if I see an opponent rolling in a way that is a little suspect, I will tolerate it for a bit. Then I will simply ask that he roll them like a man and make sure they bounce. Usually that is enough. If it continues, I tell him that if they do not bounce at least once, I will not accept the results. Sometimes I break out the box lid for rolling in. But this is rarely a problem that I have encountered. But I AM 6'8" and I DO start each game by devouring a small child, so maybe that has something to do with it?

Gobstomp420 wrote:Sometimes I break out the box lid for rolling in.

I try to do this, the Ork Battleforce box seems to be the right size.

Cheating is bad, but the best defense is to know the rules, watch your opponent and not be afraid to call him on stuff.

Like Gobstomp says, if someone is rolling badly, call them on it. If you don't like a base size, call them on it. If someone has the deployment rules wrong, call them on it.
It doesn't even have to be aggressive, unless they act like tools about it, and then, well, I'd relish the argument.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:To be honest, after Wrecking Crews Pro/Celeb back slapping contest on these very boards, I can see why people don't like them.

Yea, we're pretty much universally hated, thats why our founding members and regulars at GT's get high sportsmanship scores almost as a club rule, its why we've got good relations with GW staff, its why we have FRIENDLY rivalries with toledo, "Da Boyz", and other clubs that frequent tournements.

Fact is, at tournements you can do A LOT worse than hanging out/gaming with us....ask ANYBODY who has. Heck, even the guy who has issues with what happened with WhiteDevil (gareth) during the 'Ard Boyz had nothing but good things to say about our club.

Go ahead and keep dissing our club though. You look slowed to people who know better.

It would be good if we could keep the anti/pro Wrecking Club stuff confined to PMs. I mean, I really don't give a crap one way or another and it's more than likely to end in a locked thread.
The discussion on cheating avoidance is fun and interesting though and I'd like to see it continue.

From this point on I am going to take my opponent's dice and use them. Then I'll win all the time because he won't be able to play.

Is that cheating or stealing?

There is nothing I love more than an e-peen contest on a website dedicated to witch hunter inquisitors, goblins, nurglings, and Eldrad Ulthuan.

Only a monstrously pathetic douche would cheat on a sci-goth-fantasy wargame played with one inch tall figures. In the truest Darwinian sense, if you've ever cheated on this game (for any reason other than to just piss off your boy) and you've yet to seek psychiatric help, it might be time to pack it in.

I AM THINKING TO BRING A fluff GIRL TO ROLL MY BIG DICE FROM NOW ON AT ALL MAJOR TOURNIES.

G

A few quick hites:

1) I don't know the law in Maryland, but I actually wrote a paper on challenging decisions made by game judges in ohio and the standard for litigation is pretty high. You would have to show fraud or malice, not simply negligence, to get a court to even think about overturning the on-site judges decision. By all accounts the judges simply made a bad call, they weren't pulling for any particular winner. Even if that were the case, you would have to have standing, which means that you are a person that the fraud hurt. That can get tricky outside of the immediate opponent in those games. My point: no legal complaint on this issue would probably get very far. Of course, I'm not a lawyer and I can't give legal advice, so I, as always, recommend seeing a licensed attorney.

2) Any attempt to catch specific cheaters now, almost a week later is bound to fail. We have fading memories and hearsay to go on, and frankly it does tend to come across more as sour grapes than anything else.

3) On the other hand, educating the community about the possibilities of cheating is a very good thing. The way to stop this is in the rooms, on the tables. Get TOs to make announcements about dice rolling and how it should be done. Empower people to ask opponents to roll properly. that is the lesson to take from this. Trying to call out people based on rumors is a waste of everybody's time, but learning how to prevent this from happening in the future is a good thing!

4) I think that in an 'Ard Boys style tournament, if a judge gives you a ruling that is incredibly beneficial but incorrect, you're put into a difficult moral position. Absent coercion on the part of the player or malice on the part of the judge, I think you have to assume that these rulings are given in good faith and in full consideration of the situation. To use a favorable ruling is advantageous, but isn't it possible that to not use the ruling would be disadvantageous? In other words, with hindsight it's possible to see when a ruling was a big leg up, but in the moment it's harder to see if the ruling was merely meant to level the field. My point is that it's possible that at the moment, a player may not know for a fact that the judges rule is wrong, and in a competition that is about the win, he should use it to his advantage. It is only with hind sight that the honor of that decision can be so completely analyzed. I don't want to argue for moral relativism, but I think you have to use some empathy here: it's round three, there is serious money on the table, you're tired, you're adrenalin is flowing: is it that ridiculous that a player would take a free advantage?

blood angel wrote:From this point on I am going to take my opponent's dice and use them. Then I'll win all the time because he won't be able to play.

Is that cheating or stealing?

I have been known to put my opponents dice down my pants after an especially hot round of dice rolling. I find it works wonders in removing any 'luck' the dice might have. That and the fact my opponents doesn't want to roll them anymore works great!

I have been thinking more about this subject and I think I have overreacted to the whole thing. There are always small cases of 'cheating' that happens during a game. From just moving a model 6" + 1/12th an inch knowingly or not, to swearing on a bible that the rule works this way only to find out you are mixing 3rd - 4th - and 5th edition rules in your head. The cheating can range from the obscure to the blatent depending on the person viewing (or receiving) the infraction. We have all been in games where the opponent is losing, but playing the rules wrong. When we are losing, then the opponent isn't playing the rules wrong, they are cheating. It's amazing how the distinction occurs depending on how well we are doing. Now I thought all about this and also the fact that the Ard Boyz scenarios have in the past bent all forms of established rules to throw curves at people. This has to be in the mind of players when they look at the scenarios. I also can't complain to much about the basing issues of a model. Some models just don't work well on certain bases. I have a bunch of Raptors on Termie bases because on the normal bases they kept falling over on gentle slopes. It was frustrating enough that I glued them to bigger bases just so they wouldn't fall over. Some times it can be a little helpful to have bigger bases and sometimes it can be a detriment (like when trying to hide the Raptors behind a Rhino I find I can't get as many out of LOS).

Now when it comes to a winner of a big event their moves are scrutized more and the fear of cheating erupts in peoples minds. It can just be a seed of doubt, but it becomes absolute gospel at the slightest rules violation. Could it have been an honest mistake? Yes it could have. Could it have backfired against certain armies? Yes it could have to. In the end it is what it is and the winner is crowned. It falls on each of us to be more diligent during games against people from across the country. Not because they cheat 'over there' but because we each play a little differently and that can lead, in close games at the top tables, to perceived cheating. No one usually thinks they are being cheated on during the game unless it is outright cheating, but after the hussle and bussle of the game, in the quiet times in the hotel room, you can look back and think that there was rules bending going on that affected the outcome. If it was going to affect the outcome that much you would have picked up on it right away wouldn't you?

I think the deployment was played wrong. I don't think there was outright cheating going on. There is a difference. I also think the attempt to stymie our thoght process in this is bad form. There is no need to reply to every post that you don't agree with. That being said the next time you think ' big dice' are losing the game for you, take them and put them down your pants. It works for me every time. I'm just glad my opponent doesn't roll a hot iron or something to make morale checks.

Kallbrand wrote:On the other part of the topic, what can be done about it?

The biggest thing is to ofc. having the organizers responcible for investigating cheating and reporting it in whenever found and the person in question banned from future events.

After more thinking I guess plastic camping cups and standard GW dice for everyone would solve the dicerolling, if that is such a huge problem.

That is a really good idea

Deadshane1 wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:To be honest, after Wrecking Crews Pro/Celeb back slapping contest on these very boards, I can see why people don't like them.

Yea, we're pretty much universally hated, thats why our founding members and regulars at GT's get high sportsmanship scores almost as a club rule, its why we've got good relations with GW staff, its why we have FRIENDLY rivalries with toledo, "Da Boyz", and other clubs that frequent tournements.

Fact is, at tournements you can do A LOT worse than hanging out/gaming with us....ask ANYBODY who has. Heck, even the guy who has issues with what happened with WhiteDevil (gareth) during the 'Ard Boyz had nothing but good things to say about our club.

Go ahead and keep dissing our club though. You look slowed to people who know better.

He didn't disrespect your club, he simply sympathized with those who dislike the recent posts/threads that the WC members have started. Yes, we know you guys are competent gamers--you can keep the circle jerks to PMs or your club forums.

With regards to sportsmanship, your overly defensive reaction suggests that perhaps you guys might have less of a stellar reputation than your scores would suggest. I've seen lots of positive accounts of people having played WC members, but plenty of negative ones as well.

I smell sour grapes

Good point Darth....

Most effective Dark Eldar Armies want to close with the enemy as quickly as possible - while leaving some units to shoot at range - especially a wych cult.

I don't know what the DE opponent was playing - but maybe have the demons on the board and able to be first turn assaulted sounded like a good thing only it didn't work out so good at then end? Otherwise if something sounded way out of whack - call a judge over to the TABLE to rule in front of both players.

At the end though what you said makes a lot of sense - well maybe not so much the dice down the pants:

No one usually thinks they are being cheated on during the game unless it is outright cheating, but after the hussle and bussle of the game, in the quiet times in the hotel room, you can look back and think that there was rules bending going on that affected the outcome. If it was going to affect the outcome that much you would have picked up on it right away wouldn't you?

I think the deployment was played wrong. I don't think there was outright cheating going on. There is a difference.


The dice thing is easy to fix - GW should - in place of the tape measures, water bottles, etc - give you a set of dice that you MUST use during the tournament for all your dice rolls. That's easy!

I'm surprised that so few people posting in this thread have mentioned dice cups. I'd like to mention dice cups again, as well as iterate the utility of a box to roll in.

One reason I'd like to mention dice cups is that not all cups are equal. Proper dice cups have a rim or ridges on the inside so that any dice coming out of them come out spinning.

Aldonis wrote:

The dice thing is easy to fix - GW should - in place of the tape measures, water bottles, etc - give you a set of dice that you MUST use during the tournament for all your dice rolls. That's easy!

I like this idea.

But honestly... I corrected peoples deployment on almost every table there. The guys on table 2 had deployed everything in the corners and all tropp choices as well... seriously.

People there made tons of mistakes on every table. Stop your "oh gawd I didn't win" crying and let it GO!!

Perhaps because people got most of their information based on hearsay or were not there to see it happen. Simply put, the accused defended himself when he could have simply plead silence but he gave you his side of the story and stated many times he had the correct base size and that he asked his opponents if he could use a smaller base.

Also if someone in your club gets himself in an online witch hunt, out of loyalty to your friends and club members you will defend them.

I have been to GTs (and adepticon for 3 years) since 2004 and countless RTTs around the state of Florida. I have yet to see cheating of dice on the scale of what is suggested in this thread. If the paranoia is that high, I suggest we use Darkness' idea of issuing dice at GTs and I really dont mind paying an extra 5-10 dollars.

Danny Internets wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:To be honest, after Wrecking Crews Pro/Celeb back slapping contest on these very boards, I can see why people don't like them.

Yea, we're pretty much universally hated, thats why our founding members and regulars at GT's get high sportsmanship scores almost as a club rule, its why we've got good relations with GW staff, its why we have FRIENDLY rivalries with toledo, "Da Boyz", and other clubs that frequent tournements.

Fact is, at tournements you can do A LOT worse than hanging out/gaming with us....ask ANYBODY who has. Heck, even the guy who has issues with what happened with WhiteDevil (gareth) during the 'Ard Boyz had nothing but good things to say about our club.

Go ahead and keep dissing our club though. You look slowed to people who know better.

He didn't disrespect your club, he simply sympathized with those who dislike the recent posts/threads that the WC members have started. Yes, we know you guys are competent gamers--you can keep the circle jerks to PMs or your club forums.

With regards to sportsmanship, your overly defensive reaction suggests that perhaps you guys might have less of a stellar reputation than your scores would suggest. I've seen lots of positive accounts of people having played WC members, but plenty of negative ones as well.

Exactly!

I have a strong distaste for 'Woooh! Yeah! Go Team' type nonsense. Perhaps it's an inherent Britishness thing, but I like to see good winners, who don't go clapping each other on the back and publicly discussing how great they are. It's just not the done thing.

This thread (and the similar, previous ones) raise a whole host of interesting questions, ethical and practical, for the WC, tournament organizers and regular gamers as well.

For full disclosure (for those who say people who have never attended a GT have no business discussing it), I've played 40K for about 15 years, with several local tournaments, but nothing major like a GT. Too much money, and I don't play enough, with a competitive enough crowd, to get to where I'd need to be to successfully compete. I am considering going to one next year, however, and the issues raised recently are certainly worrisome:

Let's take a look at some of the main accusations:

Varying base size: The current rulebook is much different on the subject than the previous one. It states simply that varying base sizes may affect gameplay, so make sure to have your opponent's consent if using something other than the provided base size. So, as far as blatant cheating in terms of illegal gameplay, it sounds like the story, as presented, isn't a problem (at least the version where the player has complete sets of the models with both sized bases and obtains opponent's consent to use them).

Ethically, however, I think this does raise a few issues. As noted earlier...why would someone have complete sets of the same unit with different bases? If you know a modeling issue can grant your army a benefit, and your opponent doesn't, and you convince him to allow your non-standard models, is that ok? The advantage of the smaller models is immense...for 3 across, you reduce your deepstrike (and therefore mishap) diameter from 180mm to 120mm. That's a free 33% reduction, and the cost of potential mishaps should (SHOULD, GW) be factored into the unit cost.

Were sportsmanship scores given at this GT? Who wants to deny letting an opponent use the model he wants and risk getting nuked on sportsmanship scores? If the story as presented is incorrect, and say the player had a mixed unit with both sizes, you're still in a mixed spot as an opponent. Do you say it's not acceptable and risk getting hammered on sportsmanship, and possibly look like a jerk for making a big deal over someone's modeling/artistic expression? Most people go to play good, tough games of 40K and show of their well-painted armies, so you don't want to make a mountain out of a mole-hill, but you want the game even and fair in all regards except player skill.

Dice (rolling and actual items): First, it's incredibly hard to catch even a decent dice-cheat, let alone an expert. Second, if you think no one would bother cheating at a GT or other hobby event, you're, at best, unfamiliar with human nature or, at worst, a moron. We've all seen or heard about the petty jerks at local gaming stores...when you amplify that to people investing much more time and money to boost their ego, you can create a dangerous opponent.

It's quite probable that no one cheated at any of the GTs this year, at least regarding dice, but if some had wanted to, and were even moderately skilled at it, it wouldn't be difficult. I think this is more of a perception issue in regards to tournament integrity, but it's fairly easily addressed. Have a rolling box attached to the board/table, issue cheap dice and cups for use at the tournament, and you're done. Some inconvenience and cost, but even the perception of cheating by the most jaded loser is pretty much eliminated. And, you avoid the issues of dice hitting models, rolling of the table, cocked, lost, etc.

The whole mission deployment issue: As with the first issue I listed, it appears nothing can legitimately be leveled against the demon-player, at least as far as breaking the rules. He got a ruling from a tournament referee and went with it. Tournament ref rulings should take precedence over everything else (unfortunately), because otherwise no decision on rules questions would ever be reached. Let's look at the summary:

darkness wrote:
As for the DoW deployment. He had it ruled the same way in the semis, with out asking a judge, so its best to ask. For those who say, its clear as day you cant do that, then you dont remember last years Ard Boyz. One of the missions forced all DS to set up on the table. This included DPs, Termis, and Chaos Generic Demons. So there is a precedent for screwey missions.

People play Demons with Dawn of War rules all the time, and it's perfectly clear. It appears the player here was fishing for the beneficial answer and hoping he'd get it occasionally (with fairly low risk if denied), which he apparently did. Last year's Ard Boyz is completely irrelevant, as this is not a special tournament with its own unique rules but a GW event with the standard missions from the book.

So, it would appear that no cheating was involved, but the scenario as presented seems to raise some serious ethics issues. As this is not a novice player being discussed, but the member of an organization comprised of some of the best players in the country, it's hard to overlook these issues as innocent mistakes or ignorance and not attempts to gain an advantage while not (technically) breaking any rules.

I wasn't at 'Ard Boys, didn't hear anything about the cheating until this morning as I read through threads, and realize nothing can be done about that/those tournament(s) now.

But what we CAN do is move forward, finding a solution to the "dice problem".

If I was a Tournament Organizer, I'd make one of these for each table.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Making-a-Formboard-Dice-Tower/

Simple dice tower. I'd allow players to use their own dice. If the dice don't fit in the tower, you can't use them. Have a few sets of GW dice for purchase with me for those players that came with dice that don't fit.

The entry fee should more than cover the costs of making them.

Lormax wrote:I wasn't at 'Ard Boys, didn't hear anything about the cheating until this morning as I read through threads, and realize nothing can be done about that/those tournament(s) now.

But what we CAN do is move forward, finding a solution to the "dice problem".

If I was a Tournament Organizer, I'd make one of these for each table.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Making-a-Formboard-Dice-Tower/

Simple dice tower. I'd allow players to use their own dice. If the dice don't fit in the tower, you can't use them. Have a few sets of GW dice for purchase with me for those players that came with dice that don't fit.

The entry fee should more than cover the costs of making them.

I have a friend who is nearly blind... he does not use small dice since he can't see he uses HUGE ones

Nurglitch wrote:I'm surprised that so few people posting in this thread have mentioned dice cups. I'd like to mention dice cups again, as well as iterate the utility of a box to roll in.

One reason I'd like to mention dice cups is that not all cups are equal. Proper dice cups have a rim or ridges on the inside so that any dice coming out of them come out spinning.

I like the box. I bring my dice box with me for every game I play. I got tired long ago of the "cocked" dice and in general losing dice. At first some people looked at me funny but most people get it since I try to put it in the middle or their side of the table.

My only problem is that I have found many people start to like my box and start rolling in it. Espicially if they were rolling bad before its amazing how they will start to roll well. Than I have to sulk a bit because I feel like my box is turning on me

Nurglitch wrote:I'm surprised that so few people posting in this thread have mentioned dice cups. I'd like to mention dice cups again, as well as iterate the utility of a box to roll in.

One reason I'd like to mention dice cups is that not all cups are equal. Proper dice cups have a rim or ridges on the inside so that any dice coming out of them come out spinning.

Yep but if both players in a game used the same cup and the same set of dice it would minimize the ability to cheat.


On a side note converting and painting dice cups to look like some sort of terrain would make them a functional and aesthetic addition to any table.

Deadshane1 wrote:Go ahead and keep dissing our club though. You look slowed to people who know better.

Thing is, he's allowed not to like you. In fact, I don't really like you either. The important thing, as with other facets of life, is tolerance. I may not like the idea of a club of top players sweeping the table in major tournaments (pardon the crude oversimplification), but I tolerate it. I also don't go out of my way to insult you, because I'm on a different continent and suck horribly at 40k.

Hey, speaking of dice, there's a really neat dice application available for the iPhone - you shake it and it rolls the dice!

sabote wrote:

I like the box. I bring my dice box with me for every game I play. I got tired long ago of the "cocked" dice and in general losing dice. At first some people looked at me funny but most people get it since I try to put it in the middle or their side of the table.

My only problem is that I have found many people start to like my box and start rolling in it. Espicially if they were rolling bad before its amazing how they will start to roll well. Than I have to sulk a bit because I feel like my box is turning on me

You have your farseer cast fortune on your box at the start of every game!

Stupid box....I hates it.....

Green Blow Fly wrote:biztheclown has an axe to grind against the WC because one of our members crushed him in the final round of the gladiator at Adepticon this year and he was going into it tied for 1st place. Petty. Very petty.

G

This post is complete and total bs. I was not at all mad about that. I wished I had won, but I had no problem whatever with that game. I hung around and talked to my opponent for an hour after the game. Nor have I said anything about the Club, or the gamers in it as a group. In fact, the Adepticon Gladiator was one of the greatest gaming experiences I ever had. Nor did I even know that that player was a part of said club. I have not mentioned the club at all.

That said, in my tournament experiences outside of Adepticon, I have noticed all the social engineering, Judgehammer, and "letting my opponents decide whether they care if I break the rules" that I ever care to. I was not in Baltimore, but what happened there stinks so bad I can smell it here. How about someone actually respond with a reasoned argument about how a good, experienced tournament player could possibly make the "mistakes" here without knowing that they would be a huge unbalancing advantage.

biztheclown:

What, you've seen YMDC...

Danny Internets wrote:... your overly defensive reaction suggests that perhaps you guys might have less of a stellar reputation than your scores would suggest. I've seen lots of positive accounts of people having played WC members, but plenty of negative ones as well.

I wouldnt speak from anything I did not see first hand. I never noticed any dice cheating when I played any WC teams in thos threads, I was not at Baltimore. For the record I do NOT have an axe to grind with WC, but I have had both pos. and neg. experiences also. As with any group some good some bad.

2008 Adepticon I had an opponent who moved a squad of models through a pinned squad with insuficient space between the bases in a game at the team tourney. When challenged that this was not legal, he said: "You need to remember this is a sportsmanship game dude and lighten up". Later he moved on 2 carnifexes from reserve in distant locations and decided to to suddenly exchange them during the shooting phase as he had put the wrong models out. I was not kind in what I said about it. My team got zero sportsmanship that round. His team mates looked on in silence during obviously illegal moves. It was a WC team.

2007 Adepticon team tourney a WC team built Ork vehicles that were intentionally converted like tall thin skate walls to hide full trucks behind them. It was obvious, look at these images of 1.5 inch by 8 inch by 4 inch trucks (my guess on dimensions) and decide for yourself: images from the 2007 adepticon site:

Gobstomp420 wrote:But I AM 6'8" and I DO start each game by devouring a small child, so maybe that has something to do with it?

Cheater!

Dammit Polonius, why do you have the ability to say what I'm thinking, yet in a much more coherent manner?

I think at this point it's just a matter of making sure this doesn't happen again, because even the allegations of cheating make Ard Boyz less appealing.

Nice to see the shoe on the other foot now.

G

biztheclown wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:biztheclown has an axe to grind against the WC because one of our members crushed him in the final round of the gladiator at Adepticon this year and he was going into it tied for 1st place. Petty. Very petty.

G

This post is complete and total bs. I was not at all mad about that. I wished I had won, but I had no problem whatever with that game. I hung around and talked to my opponent for an hour after the game. Nor have I said anything about the Club, or the gamers in it as a group. In fact, the Adepticon Gladiator was one of the greatest gaming experiences I ever had. Nor did I even know that that player was a part of said club. I have not mentioned the club at all.

That said, in my tournament experiences outside of Adepticon, I have noticed all the social engineering, Judgehammer, and "letting my opponents decide whether they care if I break the rules" that I ever care to. I was not in Baltimore, but what happened there stinks so bad I can smell it here. How about someone actually respond with a reasoned argument about how a good, experienced tournament player could possibly make the "mistakes" here without knowing that they would be a huge unbalancing advantage.

EDIT - misread

Augustus wrote:2007 Adepticon team tourney a WC team built Ork vehicles that were intentionally converted like tall thin skate walls to hide full trucks behind them. It was obvious, look at these images of 1.5 inch by 8 inch by 4 inch trucks (my guess on dimensions) and decide for yourself: images from the 2007 adepticon site:

Okay, to me those things are perfectly emblematic of several failures in the notion of competitive gaming with GW systems. Personally, I'd rather feed my legs into a wood chipper than play the roulette in the hopes of a gaming experience that didn't actually suck.

I don't understand why people would cheat with dice rolling anyways. Half the fun of a game with dice (especially lots of dice) is to put them in a cup and shake the hell out of them, hearing that great sound, and rolling them out. Very fun, in my humble opinion. Double fun if you treat it like a martini, shaking it all over the place and around your head.

I'm also fond of the "blowing-on-them-for-luck" move, and the obligatory "Baby needs a new pair of shoes!" blessing.

Followed by a fist clenching and "Yes!" or by "Curses!", depending on your roll results.

Again, I don't want to talk about a group of individuals, other teams, other models, etc. GBF is trying to make this about his club being attacked. It isn't. It's about the guy who social engineered his way to a prestigious tournament win, thus calling into question whether the competitive tournament scene is a real community that can see things for what they are and correct them, or a bunch of intertwined popularity contests.

Augustus wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:... your overly defensive reaction suggests that perhaps you guys might have less of a stellar reputation than your scores would suggest. I've seen lots of positive accounts of people having played WC members, but plenty of negative ones as well.

2008 Adepticon I had an opponent who moved a squad of models through a pinned squad with insuficient space between the bases in a game at the team tourney. When challenged that this was not legal, he said: "You need to remember this is a sportsmanship game dude and lighten up". Later he moved on 2 carnifexes from reserve in distant locations and decided to to suddenly exchange them during the shooting phase as he had put the wrong models out. I was not kind in what I said about it. My team got zero sportsmanship that round. His team mates looked on in silence during obviously illegal moves. It was a WC team.

I heard about this incident before and the using Sportsmanship as a threat to cower other players. The Wrecking Crew are not the first team to do this and they will not be the last.

I think Sportsmanship should be dropped all together. I have seen and heard of too many accounts of people abusing it.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Nice to see the shoe on the other foot now.

G

I don't even know what this means. The shoe is on the other foot because you are making wild accusations against anyone who is upset? Balls.

How about you, GBF, answer my questions. Could you have made this "mistake"? If it had happened against you, would you have been able to beat it, because it just wasn't that big an advantage? Engage the argument, or it will be clear to all that you are just trolling.

Polonius wrote:A few quick hites:

4) I think that in an 'Ard Boys style tournament, if a judge gives you a ruling that is incredibly beneficial but incorrect, you're put into a difficult moral position. Absent coercion on the part of the player or malice on the part of the judge, I think you have to assume that these rulings are given in good faith and in full consideration of the situation. To use a favorable ruling is advantageous, but isn't it possible that to not use the ruling would be disadvantageous? In other words, with hindsight it's possible to see when a ruling was a big leg up, but in the moment it's harder to see if the ruling was merely meant to level the field. My point is that it's possible that at the moment, a player may not know for a fact that the judges rule is wrong, and in a competition that is about the win, he should use it to his advantage. It is only with hind sight that the honor of that decision can be so completely analyzed. I don't want to argue for moral relativism, but I think you have to use some empathy here: it's round three, there is serious money on the table, you're tired, you're adrenalin is flowing: is it that ridiculous that a player would take a free advantage?

Difficult moral position? No it isn't. You don't take big advantages that are wrong. You don't. Period. You especially don't go fishing for a ruling like this, asking the question in a convoluted way that lumps Daemons deployment in with terminators and other stuff with different special rules. This is not an edge case. This is Kairos starting on the board, with whatever Daemons he wants auto DSing on turn 1.

For your last question--Is it ridiculous? Yes, it really is. This falls well below the standard of behavior that is necessary if the tournament scene is to have any credibility.

biztheclown wrote:

Polonius wrote:A few quick hites:

4) I think that in an 'Ard Boys style tournament, if a judge gives you a ruling that is incredibly beneficial but incorrect, you're put into a difficult moral position. Absent coercion on the part of the player or malice on the part of the judge, I think you have to assume that these rulings are given in good faith and in full consideration of the situation. To use a favorable ruling is advantageous, but isn't it possible that to not use the ruling would be disadvantageous? In other words, with hindsight it's possible to see when a ruling was a big leg up, but in the moment it's harder to see if the ruling was merely meant to level the field. My point is that it's possible that at the moment, a player may not know for a fact that the judges rule is wrong, and in a competition that is about the win, he should use it to his advantage. It is only with hind sight that the honor of that decision can be so completely analyzed. I don't want to argue for moral relativism, but I think you have to use some empathy here: it's round three, there is serious money on the table, you're tired, you're adrenalin is flowing: is it that ridiculous that a player would take a free advantage?

Difficult moral position? No it isn't. You don't take big advantages that are wrong. You don't. Period. You especially don't go fishing for a ruling like this, asking the question in a convoluted way that lumps Daemons deployment in with terminators and other stuff with different special rules. This is not an edge case. This is Kairos starting on the board, with whatever Daemons he wants auto DSing on turn 1.

For your last question--Is it ridiculous? Yes, it really is. This falls well below the standard of behavior that is necessary if the tournament scene is to have any credibility.

Look, by your own admission, you weren't there. Nobody knows exactly what happened, or if similar rulings had been made on other tables. A player cannot tell that a judge's ruling was 100% wrong at the time it was made. My point, which you seemingly ignored, is that these are high level missions that can have effects beyond normal missions. It is possible that the mission read a way that contradicts the normal codex rules. That can and does happen. He asked the person that should know, a judge, for clarification, got the answer that he wanted and used it. Was it a bad call by the judge? Maybe. Should a player ignore a judge's ruling because it might be wrong? I'm not so sure.

I think if we're worried about the credibility of the tournament system, having judges give rulings that aren't horribly wrong is more important than asking players to not abuse bad rulings.

Cheating is breaking the rules. Doing what the judge says is, basically by defintion, following the rules. You can call it dishonorable, but it's not cheating.

Augustus obviously has an axe to grind.

G

biztheclown wrote:
Difficult moral position? No it isn't. You don't take big advantages that are wrong. You don't. Period. You especially don't go fishing for a ruling like this, asking the question in a convoluted way that lumps Daemons deployment in with terminators and other stuff with different special rules. This is not an edge case. This is Kairos starting on the board, with whatever Daemons he wants auto DSing on turn 1.

For your last question--Is it ridiculous? Yes, it really is. This falls well below the standard of behavior that is necessary if the tournament scene is to have any credibility.

Agreed to the very letter.

Evil Eli wrote:I think Sportsmanship should be dropped all together. I have seen and heard of too many accounts of people abusing it.

I agree, but I don't know what the answer is. OT I like the shared dice pool idea a lot. I think that offering an opponent to use your dice and improved table ettiquete are all positive things people could take away from this thread.

I do know that a grad student working on a masters in Math I think actually did a dice test paper about dice with rounded corners, like the chessex small dice vs big ones and he did find in a complete statistical analysis that they generally rolled higher becuase the rounded edges roll easier and the missing pips make the one side heavier than the six side.

Square sided dice with PAINTED ON pips did not exhibit this behavior which he verified in direct testing. It was a great read

His conclusion therefore was that only sqaure sided painted on pip dice are fair, which is actually what casino dice all look like. All of this kind of logically follows though just from observation.

Ironically this means that the GW provided dice inherently roll higher (not always good) and if they provided their own dice it wouldn't necesarily fix the situation.

It would also seem to vindicate users of large square ended painted on pip casino dice.

Sleight of hand, and dice switching are different issues however and it would also incriminate people who switch to rounded dice for high success rolls and square dice where low rolls are better.

Interesting.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Augustus wrote:2007 Adepticon team tourney a WC team built Ork vehicles that were intentionally converted like tall thin skate walls to hide full trucks behind them. It was obvious, look at these images of 1.5 inch by 8 inch by 4 inch trucks (my guess on dimensions) and decide for yourself: images from the 2007 adepticon site:

Okay, to me those things are perfectly emblematic of several failures in the notion of competitive gaming with GW systems. Personally, I'd rather feed my legs into a wood chipper than play the roulette in the hopes of a gaming experience that didn't actually suck.

Indeed, however, remember yak's number one rule. Anyone want to talk about Deathrollers? (I don't)

So where in the rules does it say that have to use small dice?

I prefer the larger dice as they are easier to hold and roll, sure I only get 12 in a cube as oposed to 36 in the small cube. I can assure you that my dice rolls are just as bad as when I use the small dice. Although I have been know to make a number of tough rolls with my trolls. Now if I could just roll to hit that DeathJack.

Of course I am 59 years old and have a problem with the smaller dice.

Now I play for fun and I have never had another player say I can not use those dice.

As for what took place at the Ard Boys, I was not there so I can not comment.

Warrior 50

Green Blow Fly wrote:Augustus obviously has an axe to grind.

G

Dig your trench then.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Augustus obviously has an axe to grind.

G

Nice Redirect

Seems like there are lots of people with axes to grind and obviously not without reason if his pictures arent photoshopped and second hand information again.. (useless defence tbh).

And yes, what he states is also 2 nasty ways of cheating.. creative modelling and threatening with sportsmanship scores.

Here in Sweden we somethimes uses subjective composition and it works pretty much the same way, you can get friendly comp judgements if you have the right connections. Also obviously not a good enviroment for tournament play, that was actually what seemed so good about ard boys.

Danny Internets wrote:

biztheclown wrote:
Difficult moral position? No it isn't. You don't take big advantages that are wrong. You don't. Period. You especially don't go fishing for a ruling like this, asking the question in a convoluted way that lumps Daemons deployment in with terminators and other stuff with different special rules. This is not an edge case. This is Kairos starting on the board, with whatever Daemons he wants auto DSing on turn 1.

For your last question--Is it ridiculous? Yes, it really is. This falls well below the standard of behavior that is necessary if the tournament scene is to have any credibility.

Agreed to the very letter.

Look, I think it's exploiting an advantage. I'm not sure it was the most honorable thing. But I think that you have to give people the benefit of the doubt. this was a split second decision made at the end of long day with money on the table. If the authority gives you an advantage, I can't judge a guy too harshly for taking it.

It's Monday morning quarterbacking of a moral kind. We've all been in these situations: there's confusion, you want to win, you're tired, you and the opponent can't agree. To say that a player knew 100% that the judge's decision was wrong involves making assumptions and a subjective judgment. We don't know the situation on the floor, and we certainly don't know the situation in a player's mind. Assigning malice as a motive without evidence is an unfair act. To make a sweeping and conclusive decision based on rumor and third hand knowledge is reckless. I don't feel comfortable calling a man out for cheating or any dishonorable act without knowing a lot more about what happened than we know here.

Evil Eli wrote:

Augustus wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:... your overly defensive reaction suggests that perhaps you guys might have less of a stellar reputation than your scores would suggest. I've seen lots of positive accounts of people having played WC members, but plenty of negative ones as well.

2008 Adepticon I had an opponent who moved a squad of models through a pinned squad with insuficient space between the bases in a game at the team tourney. When challenged that this was not legal, he said: "You need to remember this is a sportsmanship game dude and lighten up". Later he moved on 2 carnifexes from reserve in distant locations and decided to to suddenly exchange them during the shooting phase as he had put the wrong models out. I was not kind in what I said about it. My team got zero sportsmanship that round. His team mates looked on in silence during obviously illegal moves. It was a WC team.

I heard about this incident before and the using Sportsmanship as a threat to cower other players. The Wrecking Crew are not the first team to do this and they will not be the last.

I think Sportsmanship should be dropped all together. I have seen and heard of too many accounts of people abusing it.

This is really getting to be too much...and really offensive, you guys should totally knock it off.

I AM in the Wrecking Crew, I'm not guilty of cheating, I do my best to maintain good sportsmanship, and I'm also proud of the club that I'm part of.

It's totally unnacceptable for anyone here to lump all WC members into any sort of "cheaters club", we dont spam the boards with "how great we are" a single thread stating how well we've done this season isnt spam and noones forced to go in and read us "patting each others backs" as was said.

If you guys are going to persist that all Wrecking Crew are power-gaming cheaters that do everything in their power to win at the expense of other's fun, then the same can be said about dakka members. You see, I'm wrecking crew, I'm also a regular poster here, I guess that means I'm a Dakkite, so's GBF, Darkness, WCBrian, Stormboy97, WhiteDevil, and others. If all of us in WC endorse cheating, I guess that means that all Dakkites endorse cheating since we're part of your community and we're allowed to post and create threads here.

If you have an issue, take it up with the individual. Our club is no more worthy of the group discriptions that people are leveling at us than Dakkadakka itself would be. All this talk about Wrecking Crew is as offensive to myself as it would be to any of you that go to B&C, Warseer, or any other site and see that someone posted that all Dakkites are generally cheaters and WAAC players.

Knock it off, really.

Deadshane1 wrote:
This is really getting to be too much...and really offensive, you guys should totally knock it off.

I AM in the Wrecking Crew, I'm not guilty of cheating, I do my best to maintain good sportsmanship, and I'm also proud of the club that I'm proud of.

It's totally unnacceptable for anyone here to lump all WC members into any sort of "cheaters club", we dont spam the boards with "how great we are" a single thread stating how well we've done this season isnt spam and noones forced to go in and read us "patting each others backs" as was said.

If you guys are going to persist that all Wrecking Crew are power-gaming cheaters that do everything in their power to win at the expense of other's fun, then the same can be said about dakka members. You see, I'm wrecking crew, I'm also a regular poster here, I guess that means I'm a Dakkite, so's GBF, Darkness, WCBrian, Stormboy97, WhiteDevil, and others. If all of us in WC endorse cheating, I guess that means that all Dakkites endorse cheating since we're part of your community and we're allowed to post and create threads here.

If you have an issue, take it up with the individual. Our club is no more worthy of the group discriptions that people are leveling at us than Dakkadakka itself would be. All this talk about Wrecking Crew is as offensive to myself as it would be to any of you that go to B&C, Warseer, or any other site and see that someone posted that all Dakkites are generally cheaters and WAAC players.

Knock it off, really.

That said, this is how alot of other boards seem to see Dakka: a bunch of players willing to mathammer, rules lawyer, and loophole our way to winning through any means necessary regardless of what others think or feel about the game or rules.

Is there a link to the comments by the winner? I would like to hear his point of view.

I think GW should have a system that does not reward high dice only. Yes, Ld checks are a step in the right direction (low is better) but a fairly minimal one compared to armor saves, invul saves, FNP, WPP, to hit, and to wound rolls. If it was balanced (i.e. high is good to hit, low is good to wound) then as long as the person rolled the same dice each time, no problem.

Its actually you guys dragging this to your team while the topic was on cheating. I know its a delicate topic at the moment for you but that was what it was about from the start.

First one to even mention your team was GBF, so dont blame everyone else.

Secondly its people from your team that lumps you together with statements like that they will defend their teammates no matter what and same statment actually makes people belive you endorse cheating.

Deadshane1 wrote:
This is really getting to be too much...and really offensive, you guys should totally knock it off.

I AM in the Wrecking Crew, I'm not guilty of cheating, I do my best to maintain good sportsmanship, and I'm also proud of the club that I'm part of.

It's totally unnacceptable for anyone here to lump all WC members into any sort of "cheaters club", we dont spam the boards with "how great we are" a single thread stating how well we've done this season isnt spam and noones forced to go in and read us "patting each others backs" as was said.

If you guys are going to persist that all Wrecking Crew are power-gaming cheaters that do everything in their power to win at the expense of other's fun, then the same can be said about dakka members. You see, I'm wrecking crew, I'm also a regular poster here, I guess that means I'm a Dakkite, so's GBF, Darkness, WCBrian, Stormboy97, WhiteDevil, and others. If all of us in WC endorse cheating, I guess that means that all Dakkites endorse cheating since we're part of your community and we're allowed to post and create threads here.

If you have an issue, take it up with the individual. Our club is no more worthy of the group descriptions that people are leveling at us than Dakkadakka itself would be. All this talk about Wrecking Crew is as offensive to myself as it would be to any of you that go to B&C, Warseer, or any other site and see that someone posted that all Dakkites are generally cheaters and WAAC players.

Knock it off, really.

I apologize, Shane, I should have worded that better, It was less of a indictment of the WC team, and more of players abusing of the Sportsmanship Score. That is what I have a real issue with.

Modquisition on.

Thats it. I've received a record number of reports on this thread. Just glancing up I see several posts that are warnable, but I am just going to close the thread. At this point enough people. Further instances involving direct accusations on other members of the board may result in disciplinary proceedings.

Modquisition off.