Not really a whinge as such, just something resembling food for thought....

I know I might be expecting a little much, but I always kind of hope for rational, intelligent discourse on a Forum. Whether the people I am talking to or debating with share my point of view is immaterial, so long as they can put across their views in a relatively adult manner, and at least try to refrain from childish jibes etc. Not always possible. I too sometimes stumble to that level....

But there are some phrases I've seen knocking around this and other boards which I find really quite offensive. Things like 'Oh my god! New Chaos Chosen Knights better have Stats to rape a Blood Knight' I'm sorry, did I read that right? Did you just use the word rape to express your wish for something to be powerful? Rape is an incredibly nasty word. I really don't like even saying it. So why use it in such a loose way? Surely your vocabulary is extensive enough to facilitate the inclusion of some other verb?

And another one, using the term 'abortion' to describe something you don't feel turned out all that well. Example? 'Hmph! I see Space Marines got a better Codex than the abortion that was the Chaos book'

Again, absolutely no need whatsoever to use that term. It's not even being used in the correct context. If you really must use it, then surely it would apply to a previous rendition of said Codex which did not make it all the way to release for whatever reason, the project literally being aborted in favour of starting again.

I know that at least the vast majority of us are intelligent enough to have wide and varying vocabularies to unleash on the Net, so please, just consider which word is going to be appropriate.

The guys using that kind of language are usually mid-teenagers. Hopefully they will grow out of it.

I've a bit of a foul mouth, and unfortunately it comes without much thought.
But I've no real desire to shock or offend people so now that you've pointed it out I'll try and watch out for those words in particular.
I'm fairly thick skinned so I don't really notice when others do it.

gotta agree with your there mad doc, i have much like Da Boss a bit of a foul mouth, however as you pointed out there are just some words you do not use in polite conversation, to take your examples there is simply no need to say it,

what is wrong with the sentence 'Oh my god! New Chaos Chosen Knights better have Stats to completely destroy a Blood Knight?' obviously sometimes if i have had a few to drink stronger words will be put into place somewhere along the line, but a word like rape is something you do not use to describe something like that ever

Well, I'd have little problem with it, but I understand why others might. And they're entitled to have that problem.

I mean, the word rape can be used in more than just a sexual way, it's not like the word should be forever tabboo.

Similarly, abortion can be used in more than one way.
But it's best to avoid posting stuff like that on a public message board because you don't know who's reading or their history, and it's a bit needless to risk upsetting people when you could use another word.

Da Boss wrote:Well, I'd have little problem with it, but I understand why others might. And they're entitled to have that problem.

I mean, the word rape can be used in more than just a sexual way, it's not like the word should be forever tabboo.

Similarly, abortion can be used in more than one way.
But it's best to avoid posting stuff like that on a public message board because you don't know who's reading or their history, and it's a bit needless to risk upsetting people when you could use another word.

I don’t know man, I think there are reasons some words carry a taboo. Rape means something very specific, and it really isn’t an acceptable thing to bring up in a conversation about a miniatures wargame. Really, that and using ‘gay’ as a general derogatory term are about the only two that really bug me.

I think I'll play the devil's advocate here. If you don't like the words ignore the people that often use them. The shock and awe value of that kind of language is why people use it. It draws your eye to it and it can infuriate you thus making it more memorable experience.

Which would you remember more "I rather think those Blood knights should fail when attempting to prove victorious to those rapscallion Chosen Chaos Knights!" or "I hope Chaos Chosen Knights can rape Blood Knights". One is over elaborated and uses terms some might not understand the other is short, sweet, to the point and has a buzz word, rape. It'll boil your blood and compel you to come to the defense of one of the parties mentioned.

Sorry if my use of language has offended you. I know the term rapscallion often gets me in the mood for a little fisticuffs. But seriously. I agree with you but on the other side of things most don't want to watch their feet when expressing themselves in language. There are a lot of words out there and occasionally one might offend someone when you find the right time to use it.

While I agree that I don't like to see the words misused, I am not the interwebs word police. If it is someone you actually know you might make a difference and it is worth taking them aside and saying something, but generally just make sure you aren't doing it. If words on this series of tubes makes you want to cry you might consider going to 4chan.org and start building up some online calluses. Avoid the Random board, no one should be that desensitized.

It seems to me that if you're not ready to see words and terms such as you've pointed out... internet forums are probably not the best place for you to frequent.

Its much safer under your bed.

Part of the problem is the sense of disconnection of this form of communication. It's like a saying I came across. "Barbarians are more polite than civilized Men because they know that they probably won't get their throats cut for saying the wrong thing." Perhaps we need , as a society become a bit more barbaric, if that will make for more polite conversation. That being said, some people will always use words and thrases in conversation with those who they feel are part of their own peer group that they would never use in front of their parents, bosses or other strangers that they might offend. As an aside, the new Chaos Space Marines codex and the Daemons codex should have been abortions, and the Lost and the Damned army list from the Eye of Terror book should most defnintely should NOT have been. There, I said it and that's the way it is.

Deadshane1:
Its much safer under your bed.

Choice of casual language in the gaming community is one of the number one factors that pushes women out of the hobby.
Rough 1 in 4 women have been raped by 21 in the U.S.A.
So having some privileged male throw 'rape' as an adjective for 'cool-power' really removes the fun out of the hobby.
Hate for women is pretty socially acceptable, and it shouldn't be.

If you can't hang with the cave men, stay out of the man cave. *pounds on chest*

Just to point out, men can be raped too.
But I agree, rape is not a word to be bandied about- how would you feel if someone close to you was upset by reading something like that is how I look at it.

Deadshane1 wrote:It seems to me that if you're not ready to see words and terms such as you've pointed out... internet forums are probably not the best place for you to frequent.

Its much safer under your bed.

Alternatively we could add rape and gay to the auto-ban list. The downside is that their legitimate uses will also be lost.

Just because it is the Internets does not mean that any er can ing well say anything they ing like.

This forum belongs to Yakface and Legoburner. They have decided it should be reasonably family friendly, so there needs to be some discretion in the use of language.

Sounds great, rape, gay, and abortion will make the list.

Lemme see If I can come up with some more words to go onto the filter.

Nazi
9/11
holocaust
Hitler
Satan
murder
war
Facist
Stormtrooper
molest
miscarriage
slowed
execute


We'll take it further since I'm joining P.E.T.A. soon...

Slaughter
Hamburger
McNuggets
Mink Coat

Gimmie about two or three posts more and I'll be able to make the list longer. I can at least justify each of these words be avoided as much as Rape (which is not a hate crime directed solely at women) and abortion. Each of those words perhaps could offend me in some way. Maybe they all do. Should we add all of them to the filter as well?

Typeline wrote: I think I'll play the devil's advocate here. If you don't like the words ignore the people that often use them. The shock and awe value of that kind of language is why people use it. It draws your eye to it and it can infuriate you thus making it more memorable experience.

No, it is used because a lot of people, generally younger kids but not always, don't understand that they aren't the world. That people that have grown up in different situations, so that a word that they feel free to use casually might carry a lot of baggage for someone else. They walk into mixed company like the internet without the courtesy to restrict such words.

Exactly.

Da Boss wrote:Just to point out, men can be raped too.

I agree with this sentiment. All of the women I know hate to see men raped more than they hate to see women raped. I guess it's just the prison rape scene in American History X that got to them. Or Goatse (Google images it) who knows.

Well, I don't like to ascribe "values" to it.
But it shouldn't be seen as just a women's issue.
Though it is undoubtably more common with women.
I agree with Killkrazy and Sebster, though personally I can't think of words on their own that offend me.
That's because I'm thick skinned and have been fortunate enough not to have anything like that effect me personally enough to cause a direct emotional response. This isn't the case for everyone.
I'm more likely to use casual swearwords without thought, because I grew up in an environment where that is common.

Deadshane, would you go round to your grandmother's and tell her you're so hungry you want to rape one of her meatball sandwiches like a world-class whore?

Of course not (I hope.)

The point is that language, like any social behaviour, needs to be appropriate for the situation.

Just because it is a forum doesn't mean there are no social rules and conventions.

It seems to me that these words worked their magic if you're complaining about them. #$!@, @!$# and of course !@#~!$@#!~@$ just don't have the same effect any more.

Kilkrazy wrote:Deadshane, would you go round to your grandmother's and tell her you're so hungry you want to rape one of her meatball sandwiches like a world-class whore?

Of course not (I hope.)

The point is that language, like any social behaviour, needs to be appropriate for the situation.

Just because it is a forum doesn't mean there are no social rules and conventions.

Please dont say grandmother, my grandmother died several years back and hearing that word seriously offends me.

Rape, abortion, and gay are not appropriate words to be moderated.

Obvious words are, you know, the words that we discipline our kids for using, the ones that shouldnt EVER be spoken by a young child.

S-word, the F-word, and the like. These are obvious words for a filter that dont need to be brought up on a family forum.

So MDG wants to impose his morals on everyone, his own form of internet "rape" so to speak. I personally dont see a problem with the usage of the words he mentioned. If they were used so out of context as to make the user seem ignorant and offensive(like in your example above), simply hit the back button and exit the thread if you're offended. These are actual words we're talking about, used in schools, churches, courtrooms, and family dinner tables without repercussions. Such is not the same with words like S***, F***, C***, and other colourful metaphors.

This is the difference, thats what a filter is for, and if you cannot handle seeing these words, words that are sometimes used to get a real point across in an intelligent conversation, then you honestly have no business in a public forum thats posted on by 100's of people.

Now, if Yak wants to adopt MDG's "Word-Nazi" stance and impose a ridiculous set of morals on everyone, thats his choice since this is his forum. I find it ridiculous however. Imposing ones own set of morals on others that do not agree is completely wrong and pretty much against all ideas of freedom of speach, but if you step into Yak's house, I can understand....to a point. I dont think anyone here wants 'Dakka' to become a board for grades Kindergarten through 3rd.

Kilkrazy wrote:Deadshane, would you go round to your grandmother's and tell her you're so hungry you want to rape one of her meatball sandwiches like a world-class whore?

Lawl, can't wait to tell my granny I want to rape her peach cobbler like a world class ho. We're one of those open, funny, cursing families.

No-one wants Dakka to be a kindergarten board, however the import of a word changes depending on the context and the way it is used.

Rape is the name of a crop widely grown in the UK to produce cooking oil. That does not justify using it off-handedly as shorthand for effectiveness at destructive power in a game, considering another of its meanings as a violent sexual crime.

Although you do not find it offensive, there are other words you do find offensive, which you refer to in you post.

It is surely better not to use these kind of words when there are other, inoffensive words available.

The idea that people should back out of threads that contain offensive words seems to restrict free speech and discussion even more than having limits on the use of offensive words.

Kilkrazy wrote:No-one wants Dakka to be a kindergarten board, however the import of a word changes depending on the context and the way it is used.

Rape is the name of a crop widely grown in the UK to produce cooking oil. That does not justify using it off-handedly as shorthand for effectiveness at destructive power in a game, considering another of its meanings as a violent sexual crime.

I would say that murder is close to being as cruel if not a crueler crime than rape.

Am I to be moderated after I post how I "murdered" you in a game?

Kilkrazy wrote:
Although you do not find it offensive, there are other words you do find offensive, which you refer to in you post.

MDG finds my use of "Rape" distasteful, Joe Blow finds my use of "murder" distasteful, and Pamela Anderson finds my use of McNuggets distasteful. In my opinion, they are the ones with the issues that need to be addressed. They're the ones trying to impose their own morals on myself and others. These are words used in society every day in intelligent conversation.

Kilkrazy wrote:
It is surely better not to use these kind of words when there are other, inoffensive words available.

Thats just it, they arent offensive words, perhaps someone is 'offended' but the words themselves are not 'offensive' as typical "naughty words" are.

Kilkrazy wrote:
The idea that people should back out of threads that contain offensive words seems to restrict free speech and discussion even more than having limits on the use of offensive words.

Not when those peoples sense of morals is unrealisticly compared to an internet forum.

Surely the fundamental point here should be that, even though this is a forum and thus we are disassociated from each other, when making a post about anything you should think about not just what you are saying, but also how it is said. This is not about being a 'word-nazi' or a 'moral-nazi' or any other such reductionist nonsense. It's about accepting that some people may take offence at the way you phrase things. Or to put it another way, as far as I am awarem nobody on here knows me IRL, but that doesn't mean that I should just use any words that I want to. Everybody has a moral code and it's often far too easily lost when we are all faceless and nameless on a forum.

If you honestly feel that the way you phrase things is acceptable, then fair enough. However, you should expect that some people may take offence at the way you phrase it if you are particularly inflammatory. I don't think that the OP is trying to 'ban' certain words from DakkaDakka, merely to get people to think about offence caused by the way they are used.

Right, I'll get off my ing now....

I don't think censer these words, or their speakers, is necessary at all.
My argument is that people need to understand what meaning they are conveying when they use them.
This meaning is often very different than what they intend.

Take the word f:a:g for instance. Often used in the phrase: "Stop being such a f:a:g."
Normally being spoken between two White straight males.
The word cigarette comes from f-a-g-g-o-t, i.e. bundle of sticks to start a fire which gained it connection to gays during WWII because gays where joked to be the kindling for the fire to burn the Jews.

It's really easy to defend the use of hate-slurs to demean something when you come from a privileged class.

I have no interest in having a man-cave.
and I have no interest in living in a mindlessly PC environment

I just want people to be aware of what they're saying and how it affects the people around them.
If you really cool with making someone feel like crap and taking no responsibility for it, then more power to you.
but I want to make damn sure that you know your being an over-privileged ass
so you'll have a chance to make a self aware decision on conveying that meaning
instead of just using some knee-jerk slang, because no-one let you know that it's f****d-up and hurts people

Y'know I'm starting to think the way that Mad Doc G. flaunts the word 'Mad' is pretty offensive, Mental health is no laughing matter.

M** Doc G. is just trying to rape the English language and the censorship he's pedalling is an abortion.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Thats just it, they arent offensive words, perhaps someone is 'offended' but the words themselves are not 'offensive' as typical "naughty words" are.

Wait, are you arguing that there are intrinsically offensive words, but that 'rape' is not one of them? No, sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense. Go back and try again.

All you're saying is:"my social stigma is better than your social stigma."

It seems to me that we have yet another thread where somebody expresses an opinion about something that they have thought about, which bothers them in some way, which not everybody agrees with, only to have people turn it into a joke.

Just an observation.

your observation offends me, please dont observe.

Is it just me or do these type of topics always start arguments? the words that have been mentioned are not offensive on there own, there only offensive when bundled with other words. If we can't have a sensible debate about the use of these words its best not to start the topic in the first place. And don't start a flame war over my comment, you either agree with it or you don't.

Some words carry an implicit context which makes them inappropriate for most conversation. When you say something to the effect of "I raped his Chaos Knights" what are you doing if not referencing the act of forced sexual dominance, and expecting that reference to be viewed in a positive (acceptable) light?

My mom once told me never to fight, and to stop conflicts with my words. It worked great once I got my Weirding Module.

But seriously, words are offensive, and although one should come into the Internet with his inner spell-check set to ludicrous speed, there are times when they tend to wear on a person. Like when mom asked me for the rapeseed.

I knew he wasn't my dad.

Personally I find content more offensive then context. How something is said seldom bothers me, its what is said that I may actually take offense to. My two cents.

"Irregardless"

In all situations, I tend to find leet-speak more offensive than any actual word in the lexicon.

I don't know how 'rape' became common parlance - that is a bit od. And no it wasn't 4Chan. I and others were saying it years before that place was even a dream.

As far as 'abortion' goes? It's just the noun form of 'abort'. Nothing wrong with that. Saying the "abortion of a 'Chaos' Codex" is a perfectly reasonable use of the world (and in this case, 100% true).

BYE

Rape (as used in the wargame context) isn't common parlance. It is teenage boy feeling his flush of testosterone parlance. Its useage derives from misogyny arising from sexual anxieties. It needs to be challenged so that boys don't grow up thinking that way about women.

Abortion is a technical term for scrapping a mission or the termination of a pregnancy -- which often happens naturally. Its negative connotation obviously derives from the voluntary pregnancy abortion issue which is so emotive.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And no it wasn't 4Chan.

If you could point out where anyone said 4chan was the origin of this please do because I'm fairly sure that no one did.

Kilkrazy wrote:Rape (as used in the wargame context) isn't common parlance. It is teenage boy feeling his flush of testosterone parlance. Its useage derives from misogyny arising from sexual anxieties. It needs to be challenged so that boys don't grow up thinking that way about women.

It is funny that this discussion is going on and last night I was stopping by the in-laws and my little brother was playing some wrestling video game with some friends and as I was walking by I heard him say "I raped you! Double rape!" in context of defeating the other player. It does sort of lessen the impact the word has when it means "I win" or "Great victory through domination!" as well as making it sound like violently forcing sex upon another person is a way of "winning".

I think it only "lessens" the impact only when being spoken between two people that are safe from the full implications of the actual meaning of the word.
It's like hear two white guys competing and the one wins says: "I beat you like a ni***r."
Neither are black, so within their circle neither are threatened with being beaten with that kind of hatred.
but a third party that is black would have a very different of the "friendly" jibe.
especially if that person is in, oh say, a game store and not just reading on the intarwebs

Kilkrazy wrote:Rape (as used in the wargame context) isn't common parlance. It is teenage boy feeling his flush of testosterone parlance. Its useage derives from misogyny arising from sexual anxieties. It needs to be challenged so that boys don't grow up thinking that way about women.

With a name like Killkrazy I thought you'd understand flushes of testosterone a little better. Killing... very offensive. Being crazy about it? Absolutely outrageous. Having the gall to misspell it with a K? Blood boiling.

Ahtman wrote:
It is funny that this discussion is going on and last night I was stopping by the in-laws and my little brother was playing some wrestling video game with some friends and as I was walking by I heard him say "I raped you! Double rape!" in context of defeating the other player. It does sort of lessen the impact the word has when it means "I win" or "Great victory through domination!" as well as making it sound like violently forcing sex upon another person is a way of "winning".

I literally laughed out loud sitting at my living room computer at that. "DOUBLE RAPE!" I might need to say that more.

Belphegor wrote:I think it only "lessens" the impact only when being spoken between two people that are safe from the full implications of the actual meaning of the word.
It's like hear two white guys competing and the one wins says: "I beat you like a ni***r."
Neither are black, so within their circle neither are threatened with being beaten with that kind of hatred.
but a third party that is black would have a very different of the "friendly" jibe.
especially if that person is in, oh say, a game store and not just reading on the intarwebs

My friends and I are often like that. And I too feel that offensive words have some of their power taken away from them if people use them in a more nonchalant manner. If every goes around saying f**k this and f**k that, with no one getting offended or getting onto them the word looses something. It looses it's draw of use really. No one is offended, it turns no heads. Of course the F-word is very versatile so I would suspect it would still see use.

Typeline:
No one is offended, it turns no heads.

Um, I haven't met anyone how has been raped that does feel a twinge of 'not-good' when its tossed around casually to represent in-game power.
Nor have I met a black guy who is cool with strangers who he's gaming with talk about "beating someone like a n***are"
This isn't the word f**k, these are descriptions (n***are) and actions (rape) that are used to dehumanized other people.
The only people that they will lose "power" with are those people that are not threatened by them to begin with.

Typeline wrote:
With a name like Killkrazy I thought you'd understand flushes of testosterone a little better. Killing... very offensive. Being crazy about it? Absolutely outrageous. Having the gal to misspell it with a K? Blood boiling.

There's only one 'L' in his name. What does it say about you that you saw a second one?

Typeline wrote:
My friends and I are often like that. And I too feel that offensive words have some of their power taken away from them if people use them in a more nonchalant manner. If every goes around saying f**k this and f**k that, with no one getting offended or getting onto them the word looses something. It looses it's draw of use really. No one is offended, it turns no heads. Of course the F-word is very versatile so I would suspect it would still see use.

Then your friends, and you, lead very sheltered little lives.

Deadshane1 wrote:So MDG wants to impose his morals on everyone, his own form of internet "rape" so to speak. I personally dont see a problem with the usage of the words he mentioned. If they were used so out of context as to make the user seem ignorant and offensive(like in your example above), simply hit the back button and exit the thread if you're offended. These are actual words we're talking about, used in schools, churches, courtrooms, and family dinner tables without repercussions. Such is not the same with words like S***, F***, C***, and other colourful metaphors.

So you’re saying someone else needs to step out of a thread they might be really interested in, and maybe have some really interesting into, because you want to say ‘rape’ to mean ‘won’.

Typeline wrote:My friends and I are often like that. And I too feel that offensive words have some of their power taken away from them if people use them in a more nonchalant manner. If every goes around saying f**k this and f**k that, with no one getting offended or getting onto them the word looses something. It looses it's draw of use really. No one is offended, it turns no heads. Of course the F-word is very versatile so I would suspect it would still see use.

Among certain crowds a word might have become sufficiently common that it has lost its offense. It's also likely that you'll know the background of everyone in that group. So really, in those groups people should feel free to say whatever they want. This isn’t such a place though. It’s a public venue, and you can’t ever know exactly what someone reading the thread might have experienced. So it’s better to check your language a little.

dogma wrote:

Typeline wrote:
With a name like Killkrazy I thought you'd understand flushes of testosterone a little better. Killing... very offensive. Being crazy about it? Absolutely outrageous. Having the gal to misspell it with a K? Blood boiling.

There's only one 'L' in his name. What does it say about you that you saw a second one?

Typeline wrote:
My friends and I are often like that. And I too feel that offensive words have some of their power taken away from them if people use them in a more nonchalant manner. If every goes around saying f**k this and f**k that, with no one getting offended or getting onto them the word looses something. It looses it's draw of use really. No one is offended, it turns no heads. Of course the F-word is very versatile so I would suspect it would still see use.

Then your friends, and you, lead very sheltered little lives.

It'd still be pronounced the same. Also, it's a joke dude calm down. And I don't get your second point. We curse a lot and use vulgar language in our group's common vernacular so we're sheltered?

Typeline wrote:
It'd still be pronounced the same.

Pronunciation doesn't denote meaning, or do you think Kilkenny is the place where people who want to kill Kenny decided to live?

Typeline wrote:
Also, it's a joke dude calm down. And I don't get your second point. We curse a lot and use vulgar language in our group's common vernacular so we're sheltered?

I'm not particularly invested in this. I really don't care how you, or your friends talk. I just think that a willingness to use 'rape' in common parlance shows a lack of exposure to affects of that act. Its on the same level as throwing around the n-word, c-word, or f-double-g word in that it has a very specific heritage based upon the derogation of a certain group of people. In this case the sexually vulnerable.

dogma wrote:

Typeline wrote:
It'd still be pronounced the same.

Pronunciation doesn't denote meaning, or do you think Kilkenny is the place where people who want to kill Kenny decided to live?

Typeline wrote:
Also, it's a joke dude calm down. And I don't get your second point. We curse a lot and use vulgar language in our group's common vernacular so we're sheltered?

I'm not particularly invested in this. I really don't care how you, or your friends talk. I just think that a willingness to use 'rape' in common parlance shows a lack of exposure to affects of that act. Its on the same level as throwing around the n-word, c-word, or f-double-g word in that it has a very specific heritage based upon the derogation of a certain group of people. In this case the sexually vulnerable.

You seem pretty invested, your fighting me tooth and nail.

I'm not fighting you. Simply pointing out that there are implicit issues with the normalization of certain words. Especially ones so specific as 'rape'.

It's not like free use of the f-word. Sex is not an act which negatively impacts society. Rape is.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Surely your vocabulary is extensive enough to facilitate the inclusion of some other verb?

I wish I'd written that, it raped my English.

captain.gordino wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Surely your vocabulary is extensive enough to facilitate the inclusion of some other verb?

I wish I'd written that, it raped my English.

F**king lawl!

I've started to get your point about the rape thing Dogma. Rape is more a violent sexual term. Turns a lot of people off. I don't really think I've ever used the word here outside this thread though. But I've always held true to one statement about people and their freedom of speech "Either it's all ok, or none of it is ok".

The first amendment has legal limits, such as slander and libel.

Typeline wrote:

captain.gordino wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Surely your vocabulary is extensive enough to facilitate the inclusion of some other verb?

I wish I'd written that, it raped my English.

F**king lawl!

I've started to get your point about the rape thing Dogma. Rape is more a violent sexual term. Turns a lot of people off. I don't really think I've ever used the word hear outside this thread though. But I've always held true to one statement about people and their freedom of speech "Either it's all ok, or none of it is ok".

Sorry to attack your mantra, but I've never heard such tosh. Racism, that's cool then? Threats? Lies? Abuse? Harrasment?

Typeline wrote:
I've started to get your point about the rape thing Dogma. Rape is more a violent sexual term. Turns a lot of people off. I don't really think I've ever used the word hear outside this thread though. But I've always held true to one statement about people and their freedom of speech "Either it's all ok, or none of it is ok".

Banning a word legally is certainly over the line, but there is something to be said for socialization. People can say whatever they want, but they must be willing to deal with the consequences as a result.

Typeline wrote:F**king lawl!

I've started to get your point about the rape thing Dogma. Rape is more a violent sexual term. Turns a lot of people off. I don't really think I've ever used the word hear outside this thread though. But I've always held true to one statement about people and their freedom of speech "Either it's all ok, or none of it is ok".

As a legal principle, absolutely. If anyone was looking to ban the term or otherwise remove it from political debate, I'd be right next to you on the picket line. Except, you know, we're not.

People are saying that it'd be good if people considered other people when deciding how to phrase things. You're still free to express any idea you feel is important, but if you can phrase something with potentially less offensive terms and still keep the full meaning, maybe you should.

And if you can't phrase things without using terms that offend others, don't expect to be treated with much respect by the community.

Many people I'm sure like to use this forum like they would a gaming club, and don't revel in the anonymity of the internet. So they tailor their language to use with strangers and don't use words that could be offensive.

If you want to use the internet as your personal playground and use "it's the internet dude" as an excuse to say whatever you want, expect people to disagree with you.

I don't think these words need to be banned however. If someone repeatedly used language I didn't like I'd use the ignore button.

Anyone who's offended by the word rape ought to grab a dictionary, and educate himself, because half the uses of the word clearly fall outside the context of 'forced sexual intercourse'.

nostromo wrote:Anyone who's offended by the word rape ought to grab a dictionary, and educate himself, because half the uses of the word clearly fall outside the context of 'forced sexual intercourse'.

Quite true, however it is the meaning of forced sexual congress that is used when kids use it to denote winning in a video game.

Kilkrazy wrote:

nostromo wrote:Anyone who's offended by the word rape ought to grab a dictionary, and educate himself, because half the uses of the word clearly fall outside the context of 'forced sexual intercourse'.

Quite true, however it is the meaning of forced sexual congress that is used when kids use it to denote winning in a video game.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape

Is anyone here going to claim that when someone claims one unit rapes another unit he's making a reference to "an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside"? Or the act of seizing and carrying the other unit off by force?

Because that seems to be what people are trying to claim here, and seems a little silly to me.

these threads amuse me, as they pop up now and then. I think it takes a bit of courage to speak up for what genuinely offends you. I also think that nearly any regulation on expression is probably not worth the cost to expression.

The only thing I would caution people is that when you use language that people find offensive, people tend to block that language out, and by extension, your valid points. So, while I wouldn't advocate to ban certain language, I think that it should be kept in mind that other people can simply dislike how you communicate.

Just like guns are a right, but should be respected, free speech is a right that should be respected.

I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a moment here. I don't think that a strong argument can be made that the use of the word "rape" in the disputed context trivializes the concept. How long now has western society considered the victim in cases of rape to be the woman? From what I've read it was not too long ago if a woman was raped it was usually considered her fault. Hell their are still some god-forsaken places around the world which execute rape victims. Let's face it, even those who use the phrase "rape" in jest know how awful this is. I'd bet even the idiot teenagers who use the phrase aren't so dumb as to think rape is a trivial matter. Let's also face the fact that these teenagers are technically using the word correctly (even if they don't know it). Using the phrase "rape" to mean "dominate" is not a new use of the word. It has been used to refer to such matters for centuries. I don't think any harm is meant by it's use so I have trouble condemning those who use it. I fully understand why people don't like it's use, but I fail to see how it negatively impacts anyone. I see western society maturing in it's views of women's rights not regressing. The use of this offensive word has not trivialized the concept it represents.

What I do find interesting is that a better case can be made for the restriction (voluntary and in social situations where they would be impolite of course) of words like "rape" and "murder" then can be made for the words we are actually banned from using on this site. Curse words as a taboo are the remnants of an archaic form of racism. And most carry no worse meaning then their "polite" alternatives. Excrement is excrement and intercourse is intercourse so to speak. Excrement by another name is offensive seems ungrounded. Words are just collections of sounds. Which sounds are used does not seem to be a very good system for determining if a phrase is appropriate. However the concepts represented by rape and murder are viewed almost universally negative. As I've previously said, content vs context. But I feel this may blur the line between the two. At what point is the word choice content? When is the word context? Unless taken from a case-by-case basis this issue becomes virtually impossible to untangle.

And to play the devil's advocate once more: isn't the game we play technically a race war? Not to through the phrase around, but has anyone else felt uncomfortable when another player asked you "what race do you play?"

my two cents.

You have argued clearly and politely.

BloodofOrks wrote:I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a moment here. I don't think that a strong argument can be made that the use of the word "rape" in the disputed context trivializes the concept. How long now has western society considered the victim in cases of rape to be the woman? From what I've read it was not too long ago if a woman was raped it was usually considered her fault. Hell their are still some god-forsaken places around the world which execute rape victims. Let's face it, even those who use the phrase "rape" in jest know how awful this is. I'd bet even the idiot teenagers who use the phrase aren't so dumb as to think rape is a trivial matter.

People don't know anything until they are taught. Teenagers using the word rape in a trivial way may not -- probably don't -- understand its full panoply of associations. One way to teach them is to show them why it can be offensive and should not be used trivially.

Let's also face the fact that these teenagers are technically using the word correctly (even if they don't know it). Using the phrase "rape" to mean "dominate" is not a new use of the word. It has been used to refer to such matters for centuries. I don't think any harm is meant by it's use so I have trouble condemning those who use it. I fully understand why people don't like it's use, but I fail to see how it negatively impacts anyone. I see western society maturing in it's views of women's rights not regressing. The use of this offensive word has not trivialized the concept it represents.

Rape is a highly emotive word. The Rape of the Sabines. The Rape of Nanking. These involve not only conquest in war but also sexual violence against women. That is why the two meanings of the word are associated.

Some people are offended by the bantering around of such words. It can't be denied. It's no use telling them they should not be offended because of some reason or other. They are offended.

What I do find interesting is that a better case can be made for the restriction (voluntary and in social situations where they would be impolite of course) of words like "rape" and "murder" then can be made for the words we are actually banned from using on this site. Curse words as a taboo are the remnants of an archaic form of racism. And most carry no worse meaning then their "polite" alternatives. Excrement is excrement and intercourse is intercourse so to speak. Excrement by another name is offensive seems ungrounded. Words are just collections of sounds. Which sounds are used does not seem to be a very good system for determining if a phrase is appropriate. However the concepts represented by rape and murder are viewed almost universally negative. As I've previously said, content vs context. But I feel this may blur the line between the two. At what point is the word choice content? When is the word context? Unless taken from a case-by-case basis this issue becomes virtually impossible to untangle.

Again I disagree. Society has invented many words for functions such as excretion. Some are technical or medical -- excrement, stool. Some are infantile -- wee-wee, poo-poo. Some are slang -- slash, dump. Etc. etc. And some are swear words. These kinds of synonyms occur in many languages because humans are sensitive about the topics and need a variety of words to suit the situation.

Deliberately choosen, an out of place word can be used for dramatic or comic effect, or it can simply be rude. There is a place for rudery, but it is not everywhere.

If two different words or phrases exist, and one may cause offence, surely it is better to choose the other? That is simply manners.

And to play the devil's advocate once more: isn't the game we play technically a race war? Not to through the phrase around, but has anyone else felt uncomfortable when another player asked you "what race do you play?"

my two cents.

Technically it is not a race war. A race is a sub-division of a species based on minor physical differences which do not prevent interbreeding. The war between the Eldar and the Humans is an inter-species war. The war between the Eldar and the Dark Eldar is a war between factions.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Deadshane, would you go round to your grandmother's and tell her you're so hungry you want to rape one of her meatball sandwiches like a world-class whore?

Of course not (I hope.)

The point is that language, like any social behaviour, needs to be appropriate for the situation.

Just because it is a forum doesn't mean there are no social rules and conventions.

Please dont say grandmother, my grandmother died several years back and hearing that word seriously offends me.

Rape, abortion, and gay are not appropriate words to be moderated.

Obvious words are, you know, the words that we discipline our kids for using, the ones that shouldnt EVER be spoken by a young child.

S-word, the F-word, and the like. These are obvious words for a filter that dont need to be brought up on a family forum.

So MDG wants to impose his morals on everyone, his own form of internet "rape" so to speak. I personally dont see a problem with the usage of the words he mentioned. If they were used so out of context as to make the user seem ignorant and offensive(like in your example above), simply hit the back button and exit the thread if you're offended. These are actual words we're talking about, used in schools, churches, courtrooms, and family dinner tables without repercussions. Such is not the same with words like S***, F***, C***, and other colourful metaphors.

This is the difference, thats what a filter is for, and if you cannot handle seeing these words, words that are sometimes used to get a real point across in an intelligent conversation, then you honestly have no business in a public forum thats posted on by 100's of people.

Now, if Yak wants to adopt MDG's "Word-Nazi" stance and impose a ridiculous set of morals on everyone, thats his choice since this is his forum. I find it ridiculous however. Imposing ones own set of morals on others that do not agree is completely wrong and pretty much against all ideas of freedom of speach, but if you step into Yak's house, I can understand....to a point. I dont think anyone here wants 'Dakka' to become a board for grades Kindergarten through 3rd.

(NON argumentatively)

Do you realize he hypocrisy in your post, DS?
You start out by stating that censorship is wrong.
Then, you qualify it as being okay if it is words that YOU approve of having censored...
Then, you say we shouldn't be on a public forum if we can't handle certain words.

Dude, that is the epitome of Hypocrisy.

"You shouldn't censor ANY words... except these that I think are okay to censor."

Now, I agree with you on the words that should be censored.. but I'm not a hypocrite. I'm not saying MDG is wrong for thinking those others should be censored.
In fact, I agree with him. Not because of the WORD, though... but because of the context in which they're used and abused. I also agree with "gay" and "slowed" being on that list. I believe the way they're used is offensive to most "reasonably minded" individuals.

Please, note that I do not have a problem with any word mentioned in this thread, censored or not.
I cuss. I do it, however, in privacy, where it is not heard by inappropriate ears (IMO). My 10 year old daughter knows the meanings of gay, slowed and abortion (we haven't covered rape, yet... she needs another year or 2, IMO). She knows how they are "supposed" to be used and how they are "incorrectly" used. All of this, however, is done in private and not public.

It is the public nature of the forum that makes me inclined to agree with MDG.


Eric

Polonius wrote:these threads amuse me, as they pop up now and then. I think it takes a bit of courage to speak up for what genuinely offends you. I also think that nearly any regulation on expression is probably not worth the cost to expression.

The only thing I would caution people is that when you use language that people find offensive, people tend to block that language out, and by extension, your valid points. So, while I wouldn't advocate to ban certain language, I think that it should be kept in mind that other people can simply dislike how you communicate.

Just like guns are a right, but should be respected, free speech is a right that should be respected.

The principle of free speech doesn’t include being able to say anything you want in any forum. There is nothing in there about the moderation policy of a privately owned venue. You can be told to leave a restaurant for being loud and vulgar, and this is really no different.

And that’s assuming people want to go as far as moderation, which doesn’t seem to be the case for the most part. Most people are suggesting people should refrain from using certain terms, nothing more.

sebster wrote:

Polonius wrote:these threads amuse me, as they pop up now and then. I think it takes a bit of courage to speak up for what genuinely offends you. I also think that nearly any regulation on expression is probably not worth the cost to expression.

The only thing I would caution people is that when you use language that people find offensive, people tend to block that language out, and by extension, your valid points. So, while I wouldn't advocate to ban certain language, I think that it should be kept in mind that other people can simply dislike how you communicate.

Just like guns are a right, but should be respected, free speech is a right that should be respected.

The principle of free speech doesn’t include being able to say anything you want in any forum. There is nothing in there about the moderation policy of a privately owned venue. You can be told to leave a restaurant for being loud and vulgar, and this is really no different.

And that’s assuming people want to go as far as moderation, which doesn’t seem to be the case for the most part. Most people are suggesting people should refrain from using certain terms, nothing more.

Oh, I understand that the legal principles of free speech don't apply to private properties such as Dakka. I should have been more careful and said the "ideal of free speech." I think that most private owners or their agents still make a decision between regulating speech and allowing the most possible expression.

I was saying that I agree with MDG that some speech is churlish and offends me (in the sense that I value proper communication and find sloppy language to be regretable), I think that simply banning words is a poor way to encourage civility in discourse.

Kilkrazy wrote:

What I do find interesting is that a better case can be made for the restriction (voluntary and in social situations where they would be impolite of course) of words like "rape" and "murder" then can be made for the words we are actually banned from using on this site. Curse words as a taboo are the remnants of an archaic form of racism. And most carry no worse meaning then their "polite" alternatives. Excrement is excrement and intercourse is intercourse so to speak. Excrement by another name is offensive seems ungrounded. Words are just collections of sounds. Which sounds are used does not seem to be a very good system for determining if a phrase is appropriate. However the concepts represented by rape and murder are viewed almost universally negative. As I've previously said, content vs context. But I feel this may blur the line between the two. At what point is the word choice content? When is the word context? Unless taken from a case-by-case basis this issue becomes virtually impossible to untangle.

Again I disagree. Society has invented many words for functions such as excretion. Some are technical or medical -- excrement, stool. Some are infantile -- wee-wee, poo-poo. Some are slang -- slash, dump. Etc. etc. And some are swear words. These kinds of synonyms occur in many languages because humans are sensitive about the topics and need a variety of words to suit the situation.

Deliberately choosen, an out of place word can be used for dramatic or comic effect, or it can simply be rude. There is a place for rudery, but it is not everywhere.

If two different words or phrases exist, and one may cause offence, surely it is better to choose the other? That is simply manners.

I agree it is a matter of manners. But excrement has to the best of my knowledge, never murdered anyone. Rape is a sensitive word because of the violent act the word represents. The core profane words (we know what they are) are simply cultural taboos nothing more. Since they all have substitutes which are literal equivalents in meaning, it is not the meaning of the word which offends, but the word itself. Avoiding a word for this reason is the same as avoiding walking under a ladder, or thinking breaking a mirror is seven years bad luck. It often has less to do with the possibility that someone be offended, and more to do with superstition. Yes these words are rude, but the taboo is the origin of the offense. It is simply an accepted form of superstition. Personally, I think this is the kind of thing our culture should be trying to outgrow. It's taboo for the sake of taboo. It's silly. Curse word enrich our language. You don't have to use them every day, but don't feel afraid to use them.
Of course if you use the same curse word 162 times in 22 minutes a dragon might devour you. You never know.

Polonius wrote:Oh, I understand that the legal principles of free speech don't apply to private properties such as Dakka. I should have been more careful and said the "ideal of free speech." I think that most private owners or their agents still make a decision between regulating speech and allowing the most possible expression.

I was saying that I agree with MDG that some speech is churlish and offends me (in the sense that I value proper communication and find sloppy language to be regretable), I think that simply banning words is a poor way to encourage civility in discourse.

Cool, I think we agree then. You can’t really legislate manners, the kind of person who desperately wants to say it like it is while find some other way to be casually offensive. It’s more about board culture, and people knowing what kinds of things are acceptable. You’d also have the problem of someone posting an article talking about high incidence of r*** among indigenous populations, which would be ridiculous.

That said, I don’t think it’s about sloppy language. It really is about the fact that rape is something that is real and impacts on a lot of people’s lives. Bringing it up in a conversation about which game unit is better is not cool.

sebster wrote:Bringing it up in a conversation about which game unit is better is not cool.

Until such time as GW runs out of ideas and introduces Arco-rapists.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:No-one wants Dakka to be a kindergarten board, however the import of a word changes depending on the context and the way it is used.

Rape is the name of a crop widely grown in the UK to produce cooking oil. That does not justify using it off-handedly as shorthand for effectiveness at destructive power in a game, considering another of its meanings as a violent sexual crime.

I would say that murder is close to being as cruel if not a crueler crime than rape.

Am I to be moderated after I post how I "murdered" you in a game?

Kilkrazy wrote:
Although you do not find it offensive, there are other words you do find offensive, which you refer to in you post.

MDG finds my use of "Rape" distasteful, Joe Blow finds my use of "murder" distasteful, and Pamela Anderson finds my use of McNuggets distasteful. In my opinion, they are the ones with the issues that need to be addressed. They're the ones trying to impose their own morals on myself and others. These are words used in society every day in intelligent conversation.

Kilkrazy wrote:
It is surely better not to use these kind of words when there are other, inoffensive words available.

Thats just it, they arent offensive words, perhaps someone is 'offended' but the words themselves are not 'offensive' as typical "naughty words" are.

Kilkrazy wrote:
The idea that people should back out of threads that contain offensive words seems to restrict free speech and discussion even more than having limits on the use of offensive words.

Not when those peoples sense of morals is unrealisticly compared to an internet forum.

Actually, rather than objecting to the word(s) it's more the incorrect context in which they are used.

To use an example of your choosing, the word Holocaust. Although it is now forever attached to the atrocities committed against various peoples during the German Nazi Parties 'Final Solution' the word is, I believe, of Jewish origin. I don't think this word is especially offensive, unless they are followed with tripe like 'never happened' or 'was a myth created by Zionists'. Now that, I think everyone can agree would be highly offensive.

But to use words like Rape, or Abortion out of context is just idiotic. Instead of 'yeah! my guys are gonna rape your guys!' one could say, spank, mangle, mince, chin, knack, bray, slaughter, massacre, decimate*, destroy, annihilate and so on.

Likewise, for describing anything which fails to meet ones expectations, there are a wealth of words in the English language which can be used, including gems like travesty, embarassment or even plain old disappointing/disappointment.

But to use the words I mentioned in my original post is simply childish.

*Please note, the actual meaning of Decimate isn't actually all that apt. Decimation was a Roman punishment used on Legions, where 1 in 10 of the Soliders was executed. So far, the only source I have seen get this right was Doctor Who of all things, when the Master, in Series 3, orders the Troclafane to 'decimate the humans. Kill one in ten'.

I'm not saying they should be censored, as used in the correct terminology, they are verbs just doing their job. The act of enforced, non consensual intercoure is called rape. The act of terminating a pregnancy or project before it's expected end, is an abortion. But when used out of their context, as I said, they become pathetic attempts to sound like a big man.

Despite being fairly wordy (though nowhere near as wordy as say, Will Self) I am quite fond of rude terms and swearing, to the point where I own two editions of the Viz Profanisaurus, the Lexicon of Swearing. And yet, I am aware of a sort of pantheon of swearing. Some can be used to jibe friends or express mild disappointment, and to my mind, have largely lost all offense assosciated with them. For example, the word bugger. Not sure if I can get away with giving it's proper description or not, so instead I suggest consulting a dictionary. So, it's a proper verb, which has now become corrupted to be a derogatary address 'you mean bugger' to describe something gone wrong 'well, thats buggered it' or mild disappointment where simply saying 'bugger' is enough. So I would consider this word very low down the scale of swearing. Sure, someone is going to find it offensive if you talk to enough people, but by and large it's quite acceptable. And at the top? Well, those crafty Cockneys have a rhyming slang for it, which is the name of the awful singer of the awful song 'Your Beautiful'. Thats about as close as I think I can get without getting told off. Again, if your not sure, use the Interwebs to search for it. The word in question is somehow extremely offensive, and certainly one I reserve for extenuating circumstances, and is not a word I like to hear being spoken at all.

If we had to ban every word that offended someone, this would be a dull place indeed.

Hell*, there is a Psychic** power called Holocaust***.



* I find this word offensive, ban **** it.

** This term offends my Christian values.

*** This term offends the memory of the Jewish victims.

**** Ban is offensive as I know people who have been banned and it's hurtful.


Seriously, this is silly. No one should equate the denotation of rape and murder when someone says, "Your Genestealers totally raped/murdered my Space Marines!" or "I totally got murdered in my last game at the GT!"

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Why do people keep bringing up a 'ban' on words?
I don't recall anyone suggesting a ban on a word.
It's about being aware of how and what your saying affects the people around you.
Whether it's the way you meant it to, or not.

It really seems that most of the more callous/innocent "defenders" of insensitive verbage (eat THAT! living-language) seem to need to fall back on some defense line comprised of civil liberties under imagery attack.
My main argument is that a loud group of males shouting about 'raping' in a public environment (ie like a game store) can really wreck a girl's day.
It's not about offending someone's stuffy sensibilities.
It's about having an environment where someone can feel safe and just enjoy a good game.

So you are saying that A: A girl was in a games store, and B: She wouldn't be able to understand the difference between a gamer saying, "Dude, your guys totally raped my guys." and the physical act of forcing oneself on another for sexual pleasure or dominance?

Really?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

to Ozymandias
A: yes I'm saying that girls go to game stores
B: no, i'm not saying girls are stupid

How about this why don't you go into public and when someone gets owned in a game:
"Man, that squad just got lynched like n*s."
or
"Crap, you just stomped me like a queer."
It's about understanding the power of you own words in a public place with people of a varied background.

oh, wait. Do you call situations "gay" when they don't work out for you?
I just want to check. I may be wasting my time.

First, A was a bit of a joke.

Actually I abhor the word "gay" when used in place of stupid. But racial and homophobic epithets are a lot different than "murder" or "rape".

Hell, lots of people I know say things like, "Work was murder today!" Are you saying they are being insensitive in their choice of words? Maybe you are just being a little too sensitive. Should I not name my Space Marine chapter the Crusaders cause that might offend a Muslim gamer? Or how about the Black Templars? Again, that might be offensive to someone of Middle Eastern descent. Like I mentioned earlier, Holocaust is a psychic power in the game? Should I avoid calling it that cause someone might have had a relative who died in the Holocaust?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

There’s a difference between a word like murder and a word like rape. While in reality they’re both extremely horrible acts, things aren’t as simple as a direct comparison of the morality of an act. Note that a movie can include dozens of murders and still be a fairly light hearted romp, but one rape will change the tone of the film massively.

to Ozyamndias:
It has to do with the power-dynamic of the speakers.
The women that I have gamed with don't toss around "rape" as a amplifying descriptor.
Some of the male ones have use it as such.
If your the only girl in a group of strange (as in not familiar with) guys, it sets a bad atmosphere.

"Murder" does not happen on a regular basis among people that know each other, rape does.
Most people that have been raped have been raped by someone they've know for a while, probably someone they though was their friend.
remember we're talking about violence done to about 1 in 4 women, across class and race lines

most gaming communities are not friendly to women in general,
so casual use of a term that tends to be an ever-present specter in a lot of people's lives just makes it that much more difficult/unattractive to enter
If people want a gaming community that is open to female gamers they need to be mindful of what they say and how they behave
and not fall back on their unquestioned privilege as a way of doing things.

Let me bring this thread back to a point I think needs some further examining...

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I know I might be expecting a little much, but I always kind of hope for rational, intelligent discourse on a Forum.

Uh-oh

Whilst I agree that everyone has a moral duty to self moderate their choice of language in any given situation as best they can according to their sense of propriety, I think there is also an onus on the reader of posts made on a public forum to bear in mind that the person who wrote an "offensive" post or statement doesn't know them personally, and is unaware of the reader's personal background or history. One person's common parlance can cause another's utter revulsion, such is the way of language and one of the results borne out of a very multi-cultured and multi-national forum. There are people here from all walks of life, from all over the world, with every colour of skin, religious background and personal history. I'm sure I can type something seemingly innocuous that can cause offense to someone, somewhere who might read my post without even trying. It works both ways too, I'm sure someone who lives next door to me or on the next continent to me can also post something that I could read as offensive, without intending to.

You as readers of such a diversely subscribed forum need to realise that a post you read and find offensive, has, in all probability been made with good intent and is most certainly not aimed personally at you (unless it is, obviously) and was not meant to cause offense to anyone. You have a choice, just as you choose to read, ignore, comment upon, flame or not the posts of someone who's spelling, punctuation and grammar are not up to scratch for whatever reason, you make the same choices when you read something you don't like or agree with. You can either take offense, allow your blood to boil and either inwardly seethe, outwardly object either politely or loudly either at someone in your life or on the forum, or just decide that life is too short to waste pointing out to someone on another continent that the post they made to mean one thing could be inadvertently misconstrued by someone else.

Not wishing to promote further flame wars, but just out of interest, to the people who find "rape" and "murder" offensive when used casually in conversation... how do you get on playing a game where the fluff boldly proclaims things like "Suffer not the unclean to live" "Burn the heretic" "Die xenos scum!" and entirely encourages the wanton destruction and killing and maiming of fictional characters and creatures? Dark eldar are known for keeping for sex slaves. Space marines carry out ethnic cleansing. Orks kill anything that moves including each other for entertainment. Chaos space marines kill people in the most excruciating ways they can think of. Guardsmen swear, a lot. If you buy into the whole 40k universe, you're buying into all that stuff. Now, you might say "but that's fiction" well, it's just stuff written down by someone that you can choose to read or not and interpret how you wish right? Hmmm... sounds a bit like a forum.

Nuclear Mekanik:
how do you get on playing a game where the fluff boldly proclaims things like "Suffer not the unclean to live" "Burn the heretic" "Die xenos scum!"

That is part of the story and the setting of the game.

Saying that a poor die roll is "gay" is not part of the setting.
Neither is saying "I raped you like a b**c*!" to someone you defeated in a game.

You have a choice, if you don't like the way someone talks, either ignore them or don't put yourself within earshot.

Nuclear Mekanik:
You have a choice, if you don't like the way someone talks, either ignore them or don't put yourself within earshot.

This is true, it's one of the great ways to keep the gaming population to a small specific group of the population.
Also, with that attitude you have the added bonus of not having to take responsibility for what you say.

Nuclear Mekanik wrote:You have a choice, if you don't like the way someone talks, either ignore them or don't put yourself within earshot.

There's a third choice: call them on their ignorance.

Belphegor wrote:

Deadshane1:
Its much safer under your bed.

Choice of casual language in the gaming community is one of the number one factors that pushes women out of the hobby.
Rough 1 in 4 women have been raped by 21 in the U.S.A.
So having some privileged male throw 'rape' as an adjective for 'cool-power' really removes the fun out of the hobby.
Hate for women is pretty socially acceptable, and it shouldn't be.

Actually, it's 1 in 6. And it's in their lifetime, not by 21.

to PenguinDude:
Depends if your counting forced incest and rapes not reported to a legal body.
anyhow it's not like 1 in 6 is really any better...
but regardless thank you for the correction
if anyone is interested: http://www.rainn.org/

Nuclear Mekanik wrote:Not wishing to promote further flame wars, but just out of interest, to the people who find "rape" and "murder" offensive when used casually in conversation... how do you get on playing a game where the fluff boldly proclaims things like "Suffer not the unclean to live" "Burn the heretic" "Die xenos scum!" and entirely encourages the wanton destruction and killing and maiming of fictional characters and creatures? Dark eldar are known for keeping for sex slaves. Space marines carry out ethnic cleansing. Orks kill anything that moves including each other for entertainment. Chaos space marines kill people in the most excruciating ways they can think of. Guardsmen swear, a lot. If you buy into the whole 40k universe, you're buying into all that stuff. Now, you might say "but that's fiction" well, it's just stuff written down by someone that you can choose to read or not and interpret how you wish right? Hmmm... sounds a bit like a forum.

The heretics in question are fictional mutants living 40,000 years in the future. The potential victims of rape are our friends and family.

Nuclear Mekanik wrote:You have a choice, if you don't like the way someone talks, either ignore them or don't put yourself within earshot.

So if one guy out a gaming group likes talking like an offensive git, then everyone that might be bothered needs to remove themselves from that group? Not acceptable.

Nuclear Mekanik wrote:Whilst I agree that everyone has a moral duty to self moderate their choice of language in any given situation as best they can according to their sense of propriety, I think there is also an onus on the reader of posts made on a public forum to bear in mind that the person who wrote an "offensive" post or statement doesn't know them personally, and is unaware of the reader's personal background or history. One person's common parlance can cause another's utter revulsion, such is the way of language and one of the results borne out of a very multi-cultured and multi-national forum. There are people here from all walks of life, from all over the world, with every colour of skin, religious background and personal history. I'm sure I can type something seemingly innocuous that can cause offense to someone, somewhere who might read my post without even trying. It works both ways too, I'm sure someone who lives next door to me or on the next continent to me can also post something that I could read as offensive, without intending to.

You as readers of such a diversely subscribed forum need to realise that a post you read and find offensive, has, in all probability been made with good intent and is most certainly not aimed personally at you (unless it is, obviously) and was not meant to cause offense to anyone. You have a choice, just as you choose to read, ignore, comment upon, flame or not the posts of someone who's spelling, punctuation and grammar are not up to scratch for whatever reason, you make the same choices when you read something you don't like or agree with. You can either take offense, allow your blood to boil and either inwardly seethe, outwardly object either politely or loudly either at someone in your life or on the forum, or just decide that life is too short to waste pointing out to someone on another continent that the post they made to mean one thing could be inadvertently misconstrued by someone else.

Not wishing to promote further flame wars, but just out of interest, to the people who find "rape" and "murder" offensive when used casually in conversation... how do you get on playing a game where the fluff boldly proclaims things like "Suffer not the unclean to live" "Burn the heretic" "Die xenos scum!" and entirely encourages the wanton destruction and killing and maiming of fictional characters and creatures? Dark eldar are known for keeping for sex slaves. Space marines carry out ethnic cleansing. Orks kill anything that moves including each other for entertainment. Chaos space marines kill people in the most excruciating ways they can think of. Guardsmen swear, a lot. If you buy into the whole 40k universe, you're buying into all that stuff. Now, you might say "but that's fiction" well, it's just stuff written down by someone that you can choose to read or not and interpret how you wish right? Hmmm... sounds a bit like a forum.

Some of us don't buy into the whole 40K universe. We play the game because the game is fun, and we laugh behind our hands at the ridiculous pomposity of the early-teen boy fantasy imagery of the fluff.

Rape is never cool unless it's Bro-rape.

Jazz is for Losers wrote:Rape is never cool unless it's Bro-rape.

..and I turned around and saw a Jack Johnson CD sitting next to my beer. And I was all like "Hey who's Jack Johnson CD is this, I love Jack Johnson!" and he said "Yeah me too dude, I love Jack Johnson too, wanna go up to my room and talk about it?"

We can paly some xbox.

What about the Q-word? I don't think that is acceptable.

gruntboy wrote:What about the Q-word? I don't think that is acceptable.

Quetzalcoatl?

gruntboy wrote:What about the Q-word? I don't think that is acceptable.

Please enlighten me sir. Are you talking about queff? (I have no idea on how to spell it)

Qunt.

captain.gordino wrote:Qunt.

Was'nt that Robert Shaws character in Jaws?

fart.

"Dude, quit queefing about your dice rolls."

My q-word got babelfished :(

Ahtman wrote:

gruntboy wrote:What about the Q-word? I don't think that is acceptable.

Quetzalcoatl?

I think he means "queue."
My guess is that he doesn't like it because he always gets it confused with "cue" and ends up spelling it "que."

Eric

Que?

i havent bothered to read the rest but i really need to put this into the conversation

people by nature will do what you tell them not to

example:

i am having lunch (im in france)

so i am talking to the guy next to me in english and the guy in front of me sais some foul things that shouldnt be on a public forum.

me: (in french) excuse me

he repeats it over an over

so i get up and go to another table


all kids about his age in france are incredibly rude

i was visiting a school and i saw this 5 year-old kid give the finger to his teacher....

him: (in french) what does that mean?

me: who told you that

he doesnt answer P.S hes about 8 years old

me: dont ever say that in english speaking countries

and he repeats it over and over

Hughzle wrote:i was visiting a school and i saw this 5 year-old kid give the finger to his teacher....

him: (in french) what does that mean?

me: who told you that

he doesnt answer P.S hes about 8 years old

Right.
How old is he, again?

Seven?
Thirteen?
Forty one?

All children need to be socialised into the norms of adult society.

The question is whether those norms should include gratuitous offensive language in all situations.

i was talking about 2 different kids

The children are the future, if they decide it their society will be a more vulgar one. Of course they won't see it as such. It'll just be normal. But by that time the new kids will have made up some words that offend their now older generation.

Typeline wrote:The children are the future, if they decide it their society will be a more vulgar one. Of course they won't see it as such. It'll just be normal. But by that time the new kids will have made up some words that offend their now older generation.

Exactly,this is true in many respects,look at music for example,in the 50's Elvis was considerd a threat to the morality of the youth of America, skip ahead a few generations and Elvis would be considered a "wimp" by most adolecence (and that would be assuming they even knew who he was).
More on topic (for off topic) , words are just that ,words, they really only have the power wich is bestowed upon them,I mean sure there are certianly "inapproitiate" words,I certianly would'nt want my 7 year old saying " yo Dad look at the F*$%#ing A$$ on that Hottie. ,but would I be offended,no i doubt it,angry maybe but not offended.
I save being offended for subjects I feel strongly about...like censorship

Saying you raped those Space Marines is bad enough, but things turn really ugly when players escalate things...

"Oh man! I just raped your Space Marines!"
"So? I just brutally prison raped those Tankbustas!"
"Yeah? Well that Terminator was anally bleeding all over my-" etc, etc

Fortunately this doesn't happen too often, but when it does, :S

Orkeosaurus wrote:Saying you raped those Space Marines is bad enough, but things turn really ugly when players escalate things...

"Oh man! I just raped your Space Marines!"
"So? I just brutally prison raped those Tankbustas!"
"Yeah? Well that Terminator was anally bleeding all over my-" etc, etc

Fortunately this doesn't happen too often, but when it does, :S

I've had a very similar escalation of insults before. I usually end up winning due to my know how of terminology regarding the rectum.

Typeline wrote:The children are the future, if they decide it their society will be a more vulgar one. Of course they won't see it as such. It'll just be normal. But by that time the new kids will have made up some words that offend their now older generation.

No doubt. However it is the stern duty of adults to reprove the kidz for their loose morals and language. Such is the immutable pattern of mankind through the ages.