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Post by: reds8n
having been amused,angered and saddened by some of the views expressed in the article you can read here,I was wondering what people's views are on the subject in general. Now, I'm not married-- been engaged once a long time ago and it didn't work out as such, possibly for the best upon reflection-- but generally I'm quite pro the institution. I don't have a problem with same sex couples having the same legal entitlements as heterosexual couples, but neither do I think couples ( or indeed individuals) who don't marry should come in for disapproval or a hard time.
Last I read the marriage rate in the UK has dipped a fair bit in the past few decades, but has actually risen slightly in the past few years, is that similar in the other countries represented on here ?
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
I'm all for a committed relationship, but I feel the concept of a religious marriage is somewhat outdated.
This is why unless my wife to be happens to be a committed Christian, I will not be Married in a Church. I will not make my vows to a God I do not believe in. To do so would surely make a mockery of the whole service, and worse, make me a bare faced liar!
Civil Ceremonies, where I make my vow to my partner and my partner alone make much more sense to me, and are just as legally binding!
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Post by: malfred
This belief is reflected in The Industrial Vagina in her description of marriage as a type of prostitution; a legal transaction that has traditionally guaranteed sexual access to women's bodies in return for subsistence. "Prostitution and marriage have always been related," says Jeffreys. "What is shocking is that today marriage is becoming more fashionable amongst some young women". She writes that even in the case of employed, well-paid professional women "the right of men to women's bodies for sexual use has not gone but remains an assumption at the basis of heterosexual relationships".
What about the rights of women to MY body? That's what I'm talking about.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Giggedygiggedygoo!
The usual feminist claptrap. And here's another!
100% of Male Violence Is Perpetrated By Males. Therefore, All Males Are Violent.
Okay, so I pinched that from 'The Modern Parents' in Viz, but I think it illustrates the point. Marriage is what you make of it. And indeed, it is generally accepted that people in Marriages have less sex than those not.
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Post by: reds8n
I pretty much concur with your views with regards to being "churched", it would be too hypocritical of me and I'd much prefer a non religious ceremony. Although from experience it seems to me that what the man wants with regards to the whole wedding drama usually takes a far second place.
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Post by: Typeline
In regards to same sex marriages. If marriage was just something religious groups did for you after you got your marriage license I could understand the bans on gay marriage. It would hold no real meaning then, just like the institution itself. It really doesn't mean anything anymore. People bail on their marriages all the time now. It's not homosexuals getting married that is destroying marriage, it's people getting married and then immediately getting divorced. Marriage also has implied legal rights attached to it. Gays can adopt children, they can own households together, but for some reason we won't let them get married? Don't like gay marriage? Don't get gay married.
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Post by: malfred
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Giggedygiggedygoo!
The usual feminist claptrap. And here's another!
100% of Male Violence Is Perpetrated By Males. Therefore, All Males Are Violent.
Okay, so I pinched that from 'The Modern Parents' in Viz, but I think it illustrates the point. Marriage is what you make of it. And indeed, it is generally accepted that people in Marriages have less sex than those not.
Generally, married couples have sex more frequently than single people.
Unmarried cohabiting couples (straight or gay) have sex more frequently than married couples.
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Post by: Valhallan42nd
Marriage is a sacred institution, steeped in religious rite and meaning.
We have a seperation of church and state in the US.
Therefore, marriage should not be the business of the state.
Binding civil unions should be the business of the state, be they between roommates or soulmates. The part of marriage that is the legal compact should implicitly be the business of the state, and not of any particular denomination or sect.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
I'd say it *used* to be a of Religious Significance. However, this is the opinion of someone in the UK, a country less noted for it's Religious fervour than the US. This seriously isn't meant to be a snide remark, I just couldn't think of an appropriately inoffensive way of putting it, so I just wrote some suitable verbs and put in this disclaimer!
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Post by: Da Boss
Vallahalan42nd:I'm with you on that one. As long as a civil union provides exactly the same legal rights as a marrige, I'm down with that.
Civic unions should be open to everyone out of fairness, though I can see the argument for the benefits being an incentive for people to have kids in a stable environment.
I wouldn't get married unless the lady in question was pretty set on it. I'm not religious so it would be a bit meaningless.
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Post by: sebster
I think the idea of a couple standing in front of all their friends and family and telling everyone how much they love each other is a wonderful thing. That they happen to be putting on free booze for the rest of us is a nice bonus. So yeah, I like marriage.
When it comes to gay marriage, it's worth remembering that marriage was originally a civil institution, designed to formalise inheritance among those lucky enough to have stuff. Religion came into it later. I don't see any reason it should be any different now, a civil institution that establishes a formal relationship that a church can choose to bless if it wants to.
What has to stop is the idea that gay folk can have one kind of marriage and straight folk another kind and that somehow makes things fair. Seperate but equal is a lie.
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Post by: sebster
malfred wrote:Generally, married couples have sex more frequently than single people.
Unmarried cohabiting couples (straight or gay) have sex more frequently than married couples.
Is that controlled for the length of the relationship? Because generally the longer the relationship the less sex, and also the greater chance you're married.
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Post by: Frazzled
Valhallan42nd wrote:Marriage is a sacred institution, steeped in religious rite and meaning.
We have a seperation of church and state in the US.
Therefore, marriage should not be the business of the state.
Binding civil unions should be the business of the state, be they between roommates or soulmates. The part of marriage that is the legal compact should implicitly be the business of the state, and not of any particular denomination or sect.
My views exactly.
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Post by: Valhallan42nd
Well, that boggles my mind a bit, Fraz. We're usually on opposite sides of the spectrum.
If I see Four Horsemen, I'll let you know.
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Post by: dietrich
I think that gays should have the right to be married. I think it's unfair that only straight men have to suffer.
My wife and I were married in a religious ceremony. We're not that church-going right now, but it suits us. YMMV.
I do think the US government should issue a civil union to all couples, not just straight ones. If you want married, go find a church.
I've known a number of women who live with their significant other, but don't get married. I think it's usually because they have poor self-esteem, he doesn't want to get married, and they don't want to lose the relationship. A marriage provides some legal protection to both parties, that they otherwise don't have, unless they would draft up a contract. For example, he buys a house. She pays half the mortgage. In two years, they break-up and she moves out. She has nothing to show for using her money to pay half the mortgage. If they were married, she would be entitled to half the property. I don't say this as women should get half of everything in a divorce - I don't think that. But, if she's paid half the bills, then it's fair to have half the value when the relationship ends. When my parents divorced, my father took out a second mortgage, to pay my mother half the equity of the home. That was it, no alimony, nothing else - just half the value of the home.
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Post by: malfred
sebster wrote:malfred wrote:Generally, married couples have sex more frequently than single people.
Unmarried cohabiting couples (straight or gay) have sex more frequently than married couples.
Is that controlled for the length of the relationship? Because generally the longer the relationship the less sex, and also the greater chance you're married.
Not sure. I also don't know if they're averaging overall or if they're basing it on age groups and
whatnot.
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Post by: dogma
That article made me very, very sad. Second Wave Feminism is the devil itself.
Hard to respect a thought project when it blames its own failure on the ingrained nature of male oppression, and not on any flaw inside the project itself.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Marriage as it used to be, was essentially a form of prostitution. The wife got a reasonable amount of economic security, in return the husband got legal access to her body. Of course, women were often forced into marriage because society denied them other ways of supporting themselves.
That was how things worked in Victorian times or earlier, and we have moved on from there.
The law on rape within marriage was revised in 1994 in the UK. The laws on rights to work and similar economic factors had been revised in the 70s. Things are by no means equal but they are much better than they were.
There is still a discrepancy whereby husbands can cash in their pension schemes to benefit themselves alone. If the husband dies first, the wife gets no more pension. This seems unfair, since women usually do the bulk of child-rearing duties and this restricts their ability to earn a pension for themselves.
In the UK, marriage is a legal contract enacted by a state official -- the Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages.
If people want a religious service they can do it, but no religious marriages performed in the UK have any legal validity except Church of England. This is because a Church of England legally counts as a Register Office.
Thus the new "Civil Union" for gay couples is a marriage in all but name. Lots of people call it gay marriage anyway.
I don't have a problem with gay marriage. I don't think an unstable heterosexual couple provides a better home environment than a stable homosexual couple. I don't believe sexuality can be 'taught' within the home.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Valhallan42nd wrote:Marriage is a sacred institution, steeped in religious rite and meaning. We have a seperation of church and state in the US. Therefore, marriage should not be the business of the state. Binding civil unions should be the business of the state, be they between roommates or soulmates. The part of marriage that is the legal compact should implicitly be the business of the state, and not of any particular denomination or sect. Actually this is a misconception based on religions. Marriage was a legal institution long before it was ever a religious ceremony. It is a legal contract by definition, not a religious one. It wasn't until monotheism became the "it" thing(Hebrews) that it was really a religious institution. As such, I believe in marriage by state as much or more than marriage by religion(I was married in the church, BTW).
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Post by: Frazzled
Can yu support that statement Platuan? I'd posit that historically there was not a difference.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Well, that Marriage for Love is a genuinely rather modern invention would seem to lend some credence to his statement.
Before, although it was not unheard of for genuine emotion to be involved, weddings were strategic unions more than ones of emotion.
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
im not sure on all states in the US, but i know that Texas has a law that basically states that if you cohabitate with someone for 10 years or more, then you have a civil union... now, incest is still illegal in texas, but under this law, if you lived with your opposite gendered sibling for 10 years as roomies, then suddenly you have a civil union, and now fall under different tax laws... im not sure about how much that affects homosexual couples, but i do find it funny that Texas essentially allows incest, as most people view civil unions to be State run Marriages.
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Post by: Frazzled
*It doesn't
*You're factually in error.
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
i didnt believe it when i first heard it, however a JAG officer who basically specialized in divorce/marriage related cases (the military obviously has a high divorce rate, and so has accordingly higher number of civil lawyers) and he personally showed me this law... its not something i would think is enforced to much, as im sure that many people would be "forced" to move, or marry someone else, while still keeping the same living arrangements.
but my real opinion on marriage is that folks are getting married too soon, and thus getting divorced more, which in turn brings about more broken homes. and to me, the "problems" with society isnt purely to blame on things like video games, as many congressmen seem to think, but rather the result of too many boys, and young men growing up without a true father figure, and so they dont get taught the discipline needed in life, i see this all too often in younger soldiers who cannot keep their rank, as they cant keep their mouth closed at the right time, or have a myriad other problems with authority.
beyond that, i could give 2 skaven rear ends about where/how you get married, just so long as you "know" what you are getting into, and are prepared as much as can be for that choice.
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Post by: Grignard
Ensis Ferrae wrote:im not sure on all states in the US, but i know that Texas has a law that basically states that if you cohabitate with someone for 10 years or more, then you have a civil union... now, incest is still illegal in texas, but under this law, if you lived with your opposite gendered sibling for 10 years as roomies, then suddenly you have a civil union, and now fall under different tax laws... im not sure about how much that affects homosexual couples, but i do find it funny that Texas essentially allows incest, as most people view civil unions to be State run Marriages.
No, I don't believe that at all. You'd have to show me some pretty convincing evidence before I'd believe there was a law that made that little sense. Sounds suspiciously like an urban legend, a particularly hurtful urban legend.
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
u dont particularly see how such a law, if ever enforced would be hurtful, as the folks involved would suddenly get all the benefits as a couple who was married by more... public? means.
it was one of many questions i had asked a JAG lawyer about prior to getting married in the first place, because both my wife and i come from different states, and IF we were to get a divorce while in the military, there are many different ways of dealing with that, usually whatever state you are currently in, or if both parties agree to it, one of the home of record states.
Though, to me, this sort of law sounds like many of the outdated laws that have simply been left untouched since their creation (those oddball, and downright weird laws are off topic, and i shall not mention them)
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Post by: Frazzled
There is an old common law statute, but it basically says if you hold yourself out as married to someone then the law considers you married. Has nothing to do with how long you have lived with someone or incest or other nonsense.
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
the ten year thing may have come from his explanation of it to me, so on that ground i stand corrected. i also have a horrible memory as to the exact wording of anything people say, i do however remember the gist of almost everything told to me, hence i probably confused myself somewhere down the road.
but my old fashioned opinion on the state of society today stands
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Post by: dietrich
A lot of states have a common law statue from the 'olden times'. If a couple lives together for X years and says they're married, they're married. But, it's usually 7-10 years, not just a couple years. And it still doesn't always hold up in court well if challenged. It works alright for survivorship issues, spousal priviledge, and doctor/patient confidentiality. But if there's a 'common law divorce', it has a lot less weight than a 'normal divorce'.
Some states also have statues that if you're married X years, all assets become shared instead of separate. iirc, Tom Cruise divorced Nicole Kidman at like 9 years 9 months, and California's statute kicked in at 10 years. So, in three months, he would have had to give her half in a divorce, but because of the timing, he didn't. I'm sure she walked away with a big chunk of change, but I'm also sure it wasn't half.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
The opposite is true in the UK.
While people often think they gain "common law spouse" status by living together for a long time, it is actually rubbish and there is absolutely no division of assets or any other legal rights or privileges that accrue.
The sole exception is that if a woman shacked up with a man gives birth, and gives permission to the man, he can register the child and will thereby get some paternal rights.
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Post by: Necros
I think marriage is great and people should be allowed to do it with the person they love no matter what sex they are.
As far as religion goes, I would be more than happy to get married in a church. I'm not religious at all but I was raised roman catholic and I would want to do it more out of family tradition than anything else, I could care less if God sees it. He should be see it wherever it's done.
But, my idea of the perfect wedding would be for me and my gal to just go to a judge to make it legal maybe with just a few immediate family there if they want, then that night throw a huge BBQ. None of that banquet stuff where everyone laughs at grandpa doing the hokey pokey with aunt edna and we smush wedding cake in each others faces. Just a big feast of charred animal flesh, lots of booze and lots of friends & family to share it with. I also consider myself hella lucky to have a woman who thinks that's an awesome idea too
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Post by: Typeline
sebster wrote:What has to stop is the idea that gay folk can have one kind of marriage and straight folk another kind and that somehow makes things fair. Seperate but equal is a lie.
Made me think a lot of Jim Crow laws. I totally agree, separate but equal is a lie. Many of my black friends point out that gay is not a race though and such comparisons shouldn't be made. I'm not gay and I'm not black so I don't know how to really talk about it either way with either of my friends of that race or orientation.
dogma wrote:That article made me very, very sad. Second Wave Feminism is the devil itself.
Hard to respect a thought project when it blames its own failure on the ingrained nature of male oppression, and not on any flaw inside the project itself.
Best way to deal with Second Wave feminists is to buy your daughter pink and tell her to grow up and get married.
Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't have a problem with gay marriage. I don't think an unstable heterosexual couple provides a better home environment than a stable homosexual couple. I don't believe sexuality can be 'taught' within the home.
Funny you mention that. Most children raised by homosexual couples actually come out more homophobic and non-homosexual than children raised in heterosexual environs. Even funnier is that most children that are homophobic raised in heterosexual households actually end up homosexual.
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Post by: Belphegor
I think marriage should be de-legalized.
and marriages that currently act as civil unions be legally re-termed as such
protections should be placed for whichever partner/s earn less liquid capital or earning capacity
(which I know is extremely difficult)
so in effect, I don't think anyone should be able to be 'married' under U.S. law
which would be a real step towards separation between church and state
and give families the ability to define their relationships according to their own values
On a personal level, I believe it's infinitely more badass to be with someone for years without a binding agreement.
(I intend no disrespect to those who are loyally married.)
I find working through difficult times with someone when either party can leave at any time shows a lot of the actual integrity of a relationship.
I want the person I'm with to be able to leave anytime they want. So there presence is proof of their feeling.
Also, to me at least, being with someone for X+ years without binding says a lot more for that family's honor and willingness to support one another.
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Post by: wyomingfox
Typeline wrote:Funny you mention that. Most children raised by homosexual couples actually come out more homophobic and non-homosexual than children raised in heterosexual environs. Even funnier is that most children that are homophobic raised in heterosexual households actually end up homosexual.
Just curious. What study is this based on?
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Post by: sexiest_hero
My wife mother and grand-mother are anything but prostitutes. there is nothing like a good woman to take care of you, unlike what that lady seems to think, Marrige is about a lot more than sex. Any of us with a mother or grandmother, who raised us know that mom was anything but a prostitute.
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Post by: Typeline
wyomingfox wrote:Typeline wrote:Funny you mention that. Most children raised by homosexual couples actually come out more homophobic and non-homosexual than children raised in heterosexual environs. Even funnier is that most children that are homophobic raised in heterosexual households actually end up homosexual.
Just curious. What study is this based on?
I knew this would come up. But sadly it was some papers my psychology professor summarized for us in sexual development a year ago. I have no real proof.
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Post by: sebster
sexiest_hero wrote:My wife mother and grand-mother are anything but prostitutes. there is nothing like a good woman to take care of you, unlike what that lady seems to think, Marrige is about a lot more than sex. Any of us with a mother or grandmother, who raised us know that mom was anything but a prostitute.
Dude, I wouldn't worry about it. It's radical feminism, and it'll keep saying stuff like that regardless of any reasoning, facts or direct examples brought up to counter it. It also gets a lot crazier than 'marriage is prostitution'.
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Post by: Arctik_Firangi
The whole idea of 'civil union' upsets me. Mainly because the government over here always wants to know who I'm living with, how much money I make, etc. Basically everyone I've ever lived with makes more money than me; I have a professional job, but all of my money goes into maintaining that position and its expenses, which the government doesn't care about. But because the people I live with make more money than I do, they somehow think I can get them to buy things for me, and try to cheese me over it. I've been in constant arguments with social services ever since I moved out of home to go to uni. My views on marriage are mostly based around the idea that the government thinks it can rip me off. History is nice, but some of these rotting laws need to be cleaned up already. The UK sounds like it needs it even more. I did skim this a bit, but Belphegor's comments rang the most with my views.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
The point of marriage is that it's practically impossible to achieve total equality between two people so their mutual interests have to be protected. Otherwise if the marriage breaks down, the weaker partner may get severely disadvantaged.
That requires some kind of contract enforced by law. A serious, long-lasting contract needs to be witnessed and registered with the government.
As for the government wanting to know where you live and who with, etc. In a modern state with a taxation and social welfare system it is important for the government to know these things for reasons of voter registration and fair taxation and social support. This is not only on an individual level, it has to be balanced across regions as well.
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Post by: Greebynog
What amused me most about that article was it's claims to be supporting women, whilst casting them as docile, simpering idiots who just want financial security and hate sex, but have to compromise. Has the writer ever met another woman?
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Post by: Dreadwinter
As far as same sex marriages go, they should be allowed to get married. Land of the Free for us in the U.S. anwyays. It is the Churches decision on if they will let them get married there or not. If it is not a religious ceremony, then I do not see why the Church or any others should throw a fit.
Marriage used to be a religious thing. Now it is more of a union between two people financially and emotionally. Financially for the Governments, Emotionally for them.
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Post by: grizgrin
You know, marriage has the value that you put into it. Call it social programming, call it lack of options facing starvation or prostitution, call it little green men from mars; there are a lot fo little girl out there that want to be wives and mothers when they grow up. There are a lot of guys who grow up trying to get a handle on how to be lead dog in their own families when they get to be grown men.
My point is neither pro nor anti marriage. It is pro-thought. Everyone has their own views on marriage, just like most everything else. Some people are closely aligned in view, some are juxtaposed. But I LOVE it when some who has, through their own idiocy and incredible buy-in without critical and analytical thought, allowed themselves to be educated out of their sense tries to tell people what to think. How to live. That, because of it's history, something we do today is evil and not to be participated in. As if they are the only ones intelligent enough on earth to finally see through all the lies and smoke and mirrors ot discover the truth. About an ages-old institution.
Marriage can be a wonderful thing. It can be a part of your life that could never be replaced. It can be a hell on earth. In this respect, I postulate that marriage is a lot like life: don't take someone elses word for it, go make up your own damn mind.
Good to see that some are doing just that. Shameful to see some are still trying to use the letters after their names for evil.
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Post by: Frazzled
Thats way too deep for the internet.
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Post by: grizgrin
Me? Deep? Nah, masster of the obvious with a vocab modifier.
Least it wasn't one of those posts where every other line is a quote of someone else, going at each other hammer and tongs. That gets SO boring. I mean if people have axes to grind, do it where I don't have to slap you with a member-ban (ignore)? Thanks. Love ya. Mean it.
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Post by: Grignard
Well, it seems like almost everyone responding more or less feels the same way, it is just a matter of how strongly they feel. As it happens, I more or less agree with everyone. Frankly I feel if your church is against gays getting hitched, then that church shouldn't marry gays. I question why the state has anything to do with marriage in the first place. It is kind of interesting, I am a 2nd amendment buff, and I kind of feel that I can't really justify my opinions in that matter unless I'm at least slightly pro-choice and at least "look the other way" concerning gay marriage. I suppose those people feel just as strongly about the government interfering with what they feel is their business as strongly as I feel about it. I actually bring it up at the range quite frequently, after everyone has unloaded their pistols of course.
Since no one else is going to do it, I feel obligated to be the devil's advocate here. I more or less thrive off of other people's hostility anyhow, so here goes:
First off, marriage is not a right of any sort. Therefore, you cannot really talk about the "right" to be married. It is a privilege granted by the State. Similarly, you cannot compare it to Jim Crow laws, as we're talking about privileges, not rights. Also, has anyone ever defined exactly what marriage is? I mean this as a legal definition, not the Christian ( Or other faith, for that matter ) definition of it. How do you define marriage between straight people? Can one marry two people as long as any sexual contact is heterosexual? What about child brides? If there is no sex involved, is it marriage? Many cultures promise brides to a man when they are below the "age of consent" for that culture. This is golden here.....why don't we have an alliance of convenience between fundamentalist polygamists and homosexuals. I'd like to see how that one turns out.
Well, that is the best I can come up with. You can never say I wasn't obliging......
Here is my take. You can really think of me as the ultimate anti-discrimination/anti-racist poster child. Wetbacks, honkies, bohunks, queers, picaninnies...none of this matters. All are examples of H. sapiens and therefore all are equally worthless.
I be what they call a misanthrope, fool.
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Post by: malfred
Hate everyone equally?
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Post by: Grignard
malfred wrote:Hate everyone equally?
Well, dislike. Hate is a bit strong.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
I think that sex and "race" are two totally different things, and that it's disingenuous to conflate the two.
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Post by: Grignard
JohnHwangDD wrote:I think that sex and "race" are two totally different things, and that it's disingenuous to conflate the two.
Sex meaning gender or the act?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Yes.
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Post by: sebster
Grignard wrote:I actually bring it up at the range quite frequently, after everyone has unloaded their pistols of course.
What an unfortunate choice of words in a thread about homosexuality
First off, marriage is not a right of any sort. Therefore, you cannot really talk about the "right" to be married. It is a privilege granted by the State.
This is circular, though, isn’t it? You have a right to own a gun because the constitution says you should own a gun. You don’t have gay rights because the constitution says nothing on the topic.
But this is a debate about changing the law, so that such a right is granted.
JohnHwangDD wrote:I think that sex and "race" are two totally different things, and that it's disingenuous to conflate the two.
If one was to go about nitpicking over inane side issues, then sure. But if one was to look at why racism is wrong, it becomes very difficult to argue that the same underlying principles don’t relate to gay rights.
And that’s all people mean, that the underlying principles of both debates are the same.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
If you believe in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, marriage is a right, not a privilege granted by government.
Surely the whole point of the US Constitution is that the people create the government and therefore define their own rights.
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Post by: Frazzled
I actually bring it up at the range quite frequently, after everyone has unloaded their pistols of course.
WHAT DID YOU SAY? YOU WANT A CEASE FIRE? WHAT DID HE SAY WIFE?
If you believe in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, marriage is a right, not a privilege granted by government.
Well thats right out. I don't believe anything "Universal" Declaration of anything thats signed by a bunch of politicians, except confirming my right to eat cheeseburgers when I want, where I want.
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Post by: gorgon
Forget even thinking about your "ideal wedding," boys. You're the groom and the single most powerless person in the entire affair. She gets her say. Her family gets their say. Your family might get a little say. Her friends will have their input. You? Zilch.
So if she wants a wedding in the church of Gorgo and Mormo involving the ritual use of snakes, you'll do it, act as if you like it, and put on a goofy grin for the wedding pictures even if you wonder why you can't see the minister's face under that heavy black hooded robe.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Frazzled wrote:I actually bring it up at the range quite frequently, after everyone has unloaded their pistols of course.
WHAT DID YOU SAY? YOU WANT A CEASE FIRE? WHAT DID HE SAY WIFE?
If you believe in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, marriage is a right, not a privilege granted by government.
Well thats right out. I don't believe anything "Universal" Declaration of anything thats signed by a bunch of politicians, except confirming my right to eat cheeseburgers when I want, where I want.
The US Constitution was signed by a bunch of politicians.
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Post by: sebster
Frazzled wrote:Well thats right out. I don't believe anything "Universal" Declaration of anything thats signed by a bunch of politicians, except confirming my right to eat cheeseburgers when I want, where I want.
So not much of a fan of the US Constitution then?
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Post by: Frazzled
Last I saw the US Constitution was not titled "Universal."
Yea baby:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
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Post by: dogma
Frazzled wrote:Last I saw the US Constitution was not titled "Universal."
So you just don't like the word? Because, within the United States, the Constitution if pretty universal. Or are you just overly attached to the state system, and the lovely little lines that it draws on maps?
Frazzled wrote:
Yea baby:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
That's from the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.
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Post by: Frazzled
Frazzled wrote:
Yea baby:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
That's from the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.
Duh, just reminded of its awesomeness while doing a search and felt like quoting it.
Epic historical documents are crisp, clear. Magna Carta. Declaration of Independence. Live Free of Die. Edit: also "You can go to  . I'm going to Texas."
Anything that starts with a long winded "Universal Declaration" is strictly meh and easily forgotten  .
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Post by: dogma
Frazzled wrote:
Anything that starts with a long winded "Universal Declaration" is strictly meh and easily forgotten  .
I don't know Fraz, the Declaration of Independence is pretty unnecessarily verbose. It is, after all, the equivalent of the 'Universal Declaration' component of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
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Post by: malfred
I want to sign my name to the Galactic Declaration of Felix's Awesomeness.
Just moments before we discover life beyond our galaxy.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
David Beckham is trying to prove there is life beyond the LA Galaxy.
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Post by: lord_sutekh
Related thought to the original topic: since when did states regain the right to define rights within their borders? It hasn't always been a right; otherwise, I'd have never seen a black person in my schools growing up.
If you go by the standard of segregation (the last time "separate but equal" was tried), Prop 8 and its ilk are illegal. It will be interesting to see when this comes up in court.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
You know, I just don't see why anyone would support Prop 8, I really don't.
So, you believe that rather than being a genetic anomaly, that being homosexual is in fact a choice someone makes, so what? I utterly fail to see how the choice they have made in who they love impacts in any way shape or form on another person who made a different choice (surely, if it's a choice to be homosexual, it is likewise a choice to be Heterosexual. And if we follow this line of reasoning to one conclusion, we would all, by default, be Bisexual).
Isn't this just a case of bullying against a minority?
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Post by: Frazzled
No. In summary, the other side of the argument is that it is a 10,000 year old tradition which shouldn't be messed with. Second, that to change it undermines the family which is already under siege. Third, to permit it will open the door to a host of other nastiness. To paraphrase Lewis Black-one of my favorite comics- 'the Ten Commandments were put in place to keep us from marrying...GOATS.'
While I disagree with everything but the third argument I can understand where they are coming from.
OT but its interesting that the Mormons are being attacked despite the defeat coming from voters from every major group including minorities and hispanics (but don't attack them, they're Democrats). Fun to watch.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
I'm just going with the best covered objections my friend! And anyways, when it comes to this, my opinion means nowt as I don't live in the US, let alone California!
But will it really open a door to other nastiness? I'm not convinced it would. Marriage, like sex, as long as it is between two consenting adults, whats the problem? Like many things, I feel the correct stand point a Government should take is one of impartiality. Legalese it, but do not criminalise places of marriage that decide not to do same-sex ceremonies. Then everyone is surely happy?
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Post by: Frazzled
Well, the Nambla crowd piped up when one state ruled it legal. Thats the GREAT BUGABOO with me. Unless its a clever ploy to find them prior to extermination of course...
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Difference being Children do not have the same understanding of such things as Adults.
What Same-Sex Marriage is addressing is something which is largely a great injustice. Nambla however, are genuine perverts who prey on the young. Big difference!
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Post by: Frazzled
Agreed on both counts. However, the same argument can be about homosexual marriage. In fact that was the Nambla argument-that this was a stepping stone in greater understanding of "their cause."
Other slippery slope arguments I've heard:
-What about multiple husbands/wives?
-What about more communal relationships?
Again I expect to get plastered shortly, which will be especially upsetting as I'm trying to play Devil's Advocate here.
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Post by: reds8n
Frazzled wrote:No. In summary, the other side of the argument is that it is a 10,000 year old tradition which shouldn't be messed with. Second, that to change it undermines the family which is already under siege.
How does having more marriages undermine families though ? I thought the argument was that married family units are the bedrock of a stable society ?
It's not really a 10,000 year old tradition either is it ? At least in the accepted modern sense of the word marriage.
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Post by: sebster
Frazzled wrote:No. In summary, the other side of the argument is that it is a 10,000 year old tradition which shouldn't be messed with. Second, that to change it undermines the family which is already under siege. Third, to permit it will open the door to a host of other nastiness. To paraphrase Lewis Black-one of my favorite comics- 'the Ten Commandments were put in place to keep us from marrying...GOATS.'
While I disagree with everything but the third argument I can understand where they are coming from.
OT but its interesting that the Mormons are being attacked despite the defeat coming from voters from every major group including minorities and hispanics (but don't attack them, they're Democrats). Fun to watch.
They're all bad arguments, not just dubious but really very awful.
Defending something as tradition means you end up arguing that we can't ever be more tolerant than people that have been dead for 100 years.
The idea of the family under siege is a non-sequitur. A marriage survives on the commitment of the two people involved, if the two guys down the road get married it doesn't affect that marriage one bit.
And a slippery slope argument is probably the weakest of the lot. Don't do something innocuous because then something vaguely related might also happen? Please. There is no chance of legalised paedophilia, and this will not change one bit by allowing consenting adults to marry. Anyone that argues such really has to have a sit down and figure out to themselves why they'd believe anything so silly.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
I just don't see the same slippery slope, and I think it's a bogus idea to campaign under.
Multiple Spouse Marriage is not a good idea, because at the point it becomes a matter of male dominance etc. This is also not tolerated by either side of the Prop 8 debate I'd imagine (well, barring the Mormons who allegedly like that sort of thing. Please note the allegedly there).
Please define communal relationship. Is that when two people share a place? I'd agree that needs legal representation, though in a different way.
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Post by: namegoeshere
People are monkeys. WE might pretend we live in a nation etc etc. But the reality is;
Happy family = happy you.
Unhappy family = unhappy you.
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Post by: dogma
Frazzled wrote:Agreed on both counts. However, the same argument can be about homosexual marriage. In fact that was the Nambla argument-that this was a stepping stone in greater understanding of "their cause."
Other slippery slope arguments I've heard:
-What about multiple husbands/wives?
-What about more communal relationships?
Again I expect to get plastered shortly, which will be especially upsetting as I'm trying to play Devil's Advocate here.
Keep in mind I'm not attacking you, Frazz, but the arguments.
Slippery slope arguments are intrinsically invalid. Always, anywhere, and in all cases. Now, I do understand why people make these arguments, but that still doesn't change the fact that they are horrendous abominations of 'rational' thought.
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Post by: Frazzled
I respectfully disagree-not in this instance but in general. Often, slippery slope arguments come out to be very true.
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Post by: malfred
Frazzled wrote:I respectfully disagree-not in this instance but in general. Often, slippery slope arguments come out to be very true.
That just makes your next argument more likely to occur.
/cough
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Post by: Frazzled
malfred wrote:Frazzled wrote:I respectfully disagree-not in this instance but in general. Often, slippery slope arguments come out to be very true.
That just makes your next argument more likely to occur.
/cough
I think its time for some random attachments
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:You know, I just don't see why anyone would support Prop 8, I really don't.
Isn't this just a case of bullying against a minority?
And there are at least 50% of the people on California who don't see why anyone wouldn't support Prop 8 to the extent of modifying the State Constitution.
No. It's the case of a lone Mayor saying that he will not enforce the law in the state, but that he will encourage people to break that law. It's a case of Judicial Activism by less than a handful of men overridding the will of millions of people (recall that California passed a law banning Gay Marriage over a decade ago by a overwhelming majority). It's a case of a very small minority forcing their views on a majority.
Now, let's be very clear about what "bullying" would be. Bullying would mean that Gays cannot buy homes in nice neighborhoods (which is a total LIE if you've ever been to Silver Lake, and FYI, my grandfather had to deal with racial covenants when he moved to California). Bullying would mean that there'd be a legally-mandated pink triangle on their driver's licenses and official identification (when I visited the South in my youth, people were actually ID'd as "black" or "white"). Bullying would mean that Gays can't sit in certain sections of buildings, or user certain facilities ( BTW, "whites-only" restrooms aren't a joke - I remember very vividly my mom having to ask whether we were black or white). And there's a lot more official and unofficial "bullying" from that time.
So, maybe, to you white folks, never having experienced any such "bullying", meh, it's no big deal.
But when you guys say, "Oh, it's the same", I'm going to tell you in no uncertain terms that gender and "race" are NOT the same. There is no fething way you'll get me, or anybody else of a certain color and certain age to agree with that statement. That's total bs.
So none of that "bullying" applies. Instead, Gays are held to the same standard as any other man (or woman) before the law in terms of who marries whom. A Gay man can marry any other woman, just like a non-Gay man. A Gay woman can marry any other man, just like a non-Gay woman. Whether those result in sexless marriages, childless marriages, loveless marriages, marriages of convenience, or even (gasp!) extramarital sex, is the same choice that non-Gays have to deal with.
Similarly, Gays can have wedding ceremonies and Civil Unions. But redefining "marriage" and "civil union" isn't the way to do it, as it simply defines a particular relationship, just as "heterosexual" and "homosexual" define a particular sexual orientation.
I say, if the Gays want Gay Marriage to be accepted, let them earn it.
If they want to claim this to be a civil rights issue, let them lay down their lives and dreams for the cause.
From my POV, the Gays haven't done that. Not even close.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
dogma wrote:Slippery slope arguments are intrinsically invalid. Always, anywhere, and in all cases. Now, I do understand why people make these arguments, but that still doesn't change the fact that they are horrendous abominations of 'rational' thought.
What's most amusing is that, in the social sphere, every single one of them comes true.
So why you may not like the argument, the history of society proves that they actually *are* always valid, and always proven to be so. It just takes time.
Back when Welfare was concieved, guys like you would argue "oh, no, nobody would actually *stay* on welfare". When unlimited per-child increases were proposed, guys like you argued "oh, no, nobody on welfare would actually have *more* children". And so on.
But people did this. Not a huge number, but enough to make Welfare far larger and more expensive than what anyone would ever expect.
So on the basis of historical fact, you cannot dismiss any slippery slope argument.
You are therefore obligated to address every single slippery slope argument.
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Post by: Greebynog
John, sorry, but what a load of bollocks. Black people had to fight and die for their rights so everyone else does? Haven't we learnt anything from those struggles? Shouldn't it be that no-one has to suffer those indignities again? We live in modern democratic nations, and denying around a tenth of the population the right to marry just because of staid old traditions and homophobia is crap, it's an act of dehumanising, saying that these people are abnormal, and lower class citezens than straight people.
As for the arguments saying this is one step away from letting paedophiles and bestiaphiles marry is just utterly offensive, as it places gay people into the same category as these practises and perversions. Being gay is not perverted or wrong, it's love and sex between two consenting adults.
If gay people want to marry, let them, why hurt people because we feel a bit uncomfortable about it?
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Post by: Frazzled
10%-thats a substantial overstatment.
playing devil's advocate here:
As for the arguments saying this is one step away from letting paedophiles and bestiaphiles marry is just utterly offensive, as it places gay people into the same category as these practises and perversions. Being gay is not perverted or wrong, it's love and sex between two consenting adults.
I can make one change and thats the next step:
"Loving two people at the same time is not perverted or wrong, it's love and sex between consenting adults."
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Post by: reds8n
I say, if the Gays want Gay Marriage to be accepted, let them earn it.
 .. err..... how ? Live together ? Marry... oh, right.
Most bizarre.
2008/12/03 17:17:35 Subject: Your views on marriage..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
dogma wrote:
Slippery slope arguments are intrinsically invalid. Always, anywhere, and in all cases. Now, I do understand why people make these arguments, but that still doesn't change the fact that they are horrendous abominations of 'rational' thought.
What's most amusing is that, in the social sphere, every single one of them comes true.
So why you may not like the argument, the history of society proves that they actually *are* always valid, and always proven to be so. It just takes time.
Back when Welfare was concieved, guys like you would argue "oh, no, nobody would actually *stay* on welfare". When unlimited per-child increases were proposed, guys like you argued "oh, no, nobody on welfare would actually have *more* children". And so on.
But people did this. Not a huge number, but enough to make Welfare far larger and more expensive than what anyone would ever expect.
So on the basis of historical fact, you cannot dismiss any slippery slope argument.
You are therefore obligated to address every single slippery slope argument.
Every single one has come true ?
I sure as hell don't see "Rivers of Blood" or " the Black man having the whip hand over the white man", or indeed the collapse of American civilisation after racial equality laws were passed.
WE best keep women back in the home too, in case they get uppity or something too right ? They'll be wanting to vote next !
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Post by: Frazzled
WE best keep women back in the home too, in case they get uppity or something too right ? They'll be wanting to vote next !
My Wife's pretty uppity...
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Post by: dogma
JohnHwangDD wrote:
What's most amusing is that, in the social sphere, every single one of them comes true.
So why you may not like the argument, the history of society proves that they actually *are* always valid, and always proven to be so. It just takes time.
Yes, that would be the operative component of the clause, 'it takes time'. Time, and a separate decision, which makes the premise of a slippery slope wholly fallacious as there is nothing 'necessary' about making another decision.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Back when Welfare was concieved, guys like you would argue "oh, no, nobody would actually *stay* on welfare". When unlimited per-child increases were proposed, guys like you argued "oh, no, nobody on welfare would actually have *more* children". And so on.
But people did this. Not a huge number, but enough to make Welfare far larger and more expensive than what anyone would ever expect.
That isn't a slippery slope John, that is a direct consequence of the Federal dole.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
So on the basis of historical fact, you cannot dismiss any slippery slope argument.
You are therefore obligated to address every single slippery slope argument.
Not really, because the example you cited wasn't even a slippery slope argument.
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Post by: reds8n
My Wife's pretty uppity...
Yeah, but we've been told her husbands a real jerk and he.. HEY WAIT A MINUTE ! IT'S A TRAP!
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Post by: dogma
Frazzled wrote:
I can make one change and thats the next step:
"Loving two people at the same time is not perverted or wrong, it's love and sex between consenting adults."
See, but there isn't anything wrong with that insofar as it isn't a binding social agreement. Modern polyamorous relationships are founded on the freedom of partners involved. Something which the property rights of marriage necessarily impede by turning what is essentially an open social arrangement into a contractual obligation, and a highly complicated one at that. Something which would be better handled with either a Will, or open judicial arbitration.
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Post by: dogma
Frazzled wrote:I respectfully disagree-not in this instance but in general. Often, slippery slope arguments come out to be very true.
They never do because slippery slope arguments imply that if 'x' happens 'y' MUST happen. Not that it might happen, but that it must happen. Nothing, ever, must happen in a particular way.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
JohnHwangDD wrote:Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:You know, I just don't see why anyone would support Prop 8, I really don't.
Isn't this just a case of bullying against a minority?
And there are at least 50% of the people on California who don't see why anyone wouldn't support Prop 8 to the extent of modifying the State Constitution.
No. It's the case of a lone Mayor saying that he will not enforce the law in the state, but that he will encourage people to break that law. It's a case of Judicial Activism by less than a handful of men overridding the will of millions of people (recall that California passed a law banning Gay Marriage over a decade ago by a overwhelming majority). It's a case of a very small minority forcing their views on a majority.
Now, let's be very clear about what "bullying" would be. Bullying would mean that Gays cannot buy homes in nice neighborhoods (which is a total LIE if you've ever been to Silver Lake, and FYI, my grandfather had to deal with racial covenants when he moved to California). Bullying would mean that there'd be a legally-mandated pink triangle on their driver's licenses and official identification (when I visited the South in my youth, people were actually ID'd as "black" or "white"). Bullying would mean that Gays can't sit in certain sections of buildings, or user certain facilities ( BTW, "whites-only" restrooms aren't a joke - I remember very vividly my mom having to ask whether we were black or white). And there's a lot more official and unofficial "bullying" from that time.
So, maybe, to you white folks, never having experienced any such "bullying", meh, it's no big deal.
But when you guys say, "Oh, it's the same", I'm going to tell you in no uncertain terms that gender and "race" are NOT the same. There is no fething way you'll get me, or anybody else of a certain color and certain age to agree with that statement. That's total bs.
So none of that "bullying" applies. Instead, Gays are held to the same standard as any other man (or woman) before the law in terms of who marries whom. A Gay man can marry any other woman, just like a non-Gay man. A Gay woman can marry any other man, just like a non-Gay woman. Whether those result in sexless marriages, childless marriages, loveless marriages, marriages of convenience, or even (gasp!) extramarital sex, is the same choice that non-Gays have to deal with.
Similarly, Gays can have wedding ceremonies and Civil Unions. But redefining "marriage" and "civil union" isn't the way to do it, as it simply defines a particular relationship, just as "heterosexual" and "homosexual" define a particular sexual orientation.
I say, if the Gays want Gay Marriage to be accepted, let them earn it.
If they want to claim this to be a civil rights issue, let them lay down their lives and dreams for the cause.
From my POV, the Gays haven't done that. Not even close.
So, because the Black population of America had an unjust* struggle for basic human rights, the same must happen for all minorities, be they ethnic or sexual?
You say race and sexuality are two different issues, I respectfully disagree. Those fighting for their civil rights had no choice in being born with non-white skin. A homosexual has no choice in who they happen to fancy. As I said earlier, it stands to reason that if Homosexuality is a choice, then so is Heterosexuality, making the entire population Bisexual by default.
I honestly cannot believe that a person who's family had suffered horrendous civil rights abuses could possibly declare that another group has to earn it.
The Black populace should never have had to earn the vote and equal rights. That is something you should just have.
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Post by: Frazzled
John's argument (correct me if I am wrong) is that they already have all these rights.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Except for Marriage.
And the 'well, they can go and marry a member of the opposite sex' arguement is just incredibly, unbeliveably lame, and already covered earlier I believe.
But hey, if he wants to keep to his own ideas, then fair enough. Just don't push them on people you don't know and whose behaviour doesn't affect you.
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Post by: Greebynog
The ten percent figure is widely used by Gay rights movements, the most recent study in the UK put the figure at between 6 and 9%, hence the 'around' qualifier in my above statement. Regardless of stats, the argument stands, the number is unimportant.
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Post by: dogma
JohnHwangDD wrote:
No. It's the case of a lone Mayor saying that he will not enforce the law in the state, but that he will encourage people to break that law. It's a case of Judicial Activism by less than a handful of men overridding the will of millions of people (recall that California passed a law banning Gay Marriage over a decade ago by a overwhelming majority). It's a case of a very small minority forcing their views on a majority.
Not really, it the case of a small minority forcing people to accept their views, not practice them.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
So, maybe, to you white folks, never having experienced any such "bullying", meh, it's no big deal.
But when you guys say, "Oh, it's the same", I'm going to tell you in no uncertain terms that gender and "race" are NOT the same. There is no fething way you'll get me, or anybody else of a certain color and certain age to agree with that statement. That's total bs.
It isn't the same, but the concept is similar in that it is founded on denying rights to people because they are different.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
So none of that "bullying" applies. Instead, Gays are held to the same standard as any other man (or woman) before the law in terms of who marries whom. A Gay man can marry any other woman, just like a non-Gay man. A Gay woman can marry any other man, just like a non-Gay woman. Whether those result in sexless marriages, childless marriages, loveless marriages, marriages of convenience, or even (gasp!) extramarital sex, is the same choice that non-Gays have to deal with.
Of course, the consequences are different for them as they are essentially being forced to marry a partner whom they are not sexually attracted to.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Similarly, Gays can have wedding ceremonies and Civil Unions. But redefining "marriage" and "civil union" isn't the way to do it, as it simply defines a particular relationship, just as "heterosexual" and "homosexual" define a particular sexual orientation.
So, you aren't opposed to gay marriage so long as they don't use 'your' word? That's pretty shallow, John.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
I say, if the Gays want Gay Marriage to be accepted, let them earn it.
If they want to claim this to be a civil rights issue, let them lay down their lives and dreams for the cause.
From my POV, the Gays haven't done that. Not even close.
And they shouldn't have to. Unless your advocating retributive violence, but that cant be true, because then you'd be advocating terrorism.
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Post by: Frazzled
Thats the other argument, that this is being pushed by a very vocal very small minority in conflict to the traditions of Democracy.
Its a conservative argument that I agree with. If you want to change something, do it properly. Win a vote. Get enough legislators on your side to pass legislation. What happened is that a court short circuited the democratic process and imposed it. Thats not democracy thats despotism.
Win the vote. Win your rights.
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Post by: Greebynog
As for the polygamy arguments, as far as I'm concerned, if all the adults are consenting, then again, who cares? Marriage in this case is a seperate, and highly complex issue, and one unrelated entirely to the issue of gay rights to marriage.
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Post by: dogma
Frazzled wrote:
Win the vote. Win your rights.
I dearly hope you see the issue with this statement.
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Post by: Frazzled
I clearly hope you see you're arguing for tyranny.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
No . No. No.
RIGHTS are not a Prize. They are something everyone should be given.
It is a black mark upon humanity than some have to struggle for them!
I don't mean to be rude to you personally, but who exactly is demanding equal rights for all sections of soceity advocating Tyranny? Tyranny is not giving them in the first place, or later taking them away.
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Post by: Greebynog
Doesn't the Declaration of Independance contain words to the effect of all men are created equal under God, and that every man has certain inalienable rights, including the right to pursue happiness? What if that happiness is to be found within the security of a loving marriage?
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Post by: Greebynog
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:No . No. No.
RIGHTS are not a Prize. They are something everyone should be given.
It is a black mark upon humanity than some have to struggle for them!
I don't mean to be rude to you personally, but who exactly is demanding equal rights for all sections of soceity advocating Tyranny? Tyranny is not giving them in the first place, or later taking them away.
QFT
Although I would argue rights cannot be given, everyone already has them, regardless of law-makers' attempts to remove them.
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Post by: dogma
Frazzled wrote:I clearly hope you see you're arguing for tyranny.
The Bill of Rights wasn't passed by popular vote, was that tyrannical? What if people believed that they should have the right to deny others the freedom of speech, should they have been able to practice such a belief? Sorry, Fraz, tyranny is the imposition of your views on other people. Allowing homosexuals to marry is not imposing on anyone.
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Post by: Frazzled
Greebynog wrote:Doesn't the Declaration of Independance contain words to the effect of all men are created equal under God, and that every man has certain inalienable rights, including the right to pursue happiness? What if that happiness is to be found within the security of a loving marriage?
What if that happiness means you like to eat babies? Do that mean you have a right to eat babies? What if Bob wants to marry a goat to give him that happiness?
I'm painting myself into a corner here on a topic I don't actually disagree with (aka gays want to suffer in marriage, hey its their funeral...  ), so will defer further argument.
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Post by: Frazzled
dogma wrote:Frazzled wrote:I clearly hope you see you're arguing for tyranny.
The Bill of Rights wasn't passed by popular vote, was that tyrannical?
Er, I believe it was actually. It was passed by Congress and ratified by the States.
There are essentially two ways spelled out in the Constitution for how to propose an amendment. One has never been used.
The first method is for a bill to pass both houses of the legislature, by a two-thirds majority in each. Once the bill has passed both houses, it goes on to the states. This is the route taken by all current amendments. Because of some long outstanding amendments, such as the 27th, Congress will normally put a time limit (typically seven years) for the bill to be approved as an amendment (for example, see the 21st and 22nd).
The second method prescribed is for a Constitutional Convention to be called by two-thirds of the legislatures of the States, and for that Convention to propose one or more amendments. These amendments are then sent to the states to be approved by three-fourths of the legislatures or conventions. This route has never been taken, and there is discussion in political science circles about just how such a convention would be convened, and what kind of changes it would bring about.
Regardless of which of the two proposal routes is taken, the amendment must be ratified, or approved, by three-fourths of states. There are two ways to do this, too. The text of the amendment may specify whether the bill must be passed by the state legislatures or by a state convention. See the Ratification Convention Page for a discussion of the make up of a convention. Amendments are sent to the legislatures of the states by default. Only one amendment, the 21st, specified a convention. In any case, passage by the legislature or convention is by simple majority.
interesting notes on the Bill of Rights itself:
The Bill of Rights (Amendments 1 through 10)
As noted on the Constitutional Convention Topic Page, several delegates to the convention refused to sign the newly drafted constitution because it did not include a bill of rights. Bills of rights were typically parts of the constitutions of the several states of the day (and today), placed there to ensure that certain rights were recognized by the government. Most of the delegates did not feel such a bill was necessary, and other may have been on the fence but were weary from the months of negotiations.
The lack of a bill of rights was one of the main arguments that Anti-Federalists used to try to convince the public to reject the Constitution. But the need for change was all too evident, and it was not rejected. However, some of the states sent suggestions for amendments to the Constitution to add an enumeration of certain rights. The ratification messages of the states included many varying suggestions, which the very first Congress took under consideration in its very first session.
Representative James Madison, who was so instrumental in the creation of the Constitution in the first place, drafted a bill of rights. Though he originally opposed the idea, by the time he ran for a seat in the House, he used the creation of a bill as part of his campaign. He introduced the bill into the House, which debated it at length and approved 17 articles of amendment. The Senate took up the bill and reduced the number to 12, by combining some and rejecting others. The House accepted the Senate's changes, voting on September 24th and 25th, 1789; twelve articles of amendment were sent to the states for ratification.
The first two articles were not accepted by enough states, but the last ten were. We know them today as Amendments 1 through 10. The second article was eventually ratified as the 27th Amendment. The first ten amendments, collectively known as the Bill of Rights, were ratified on December 15, 1791 (811 days). A photographic image of the badly-faded original Bill is available on this site.
http://www.usconstitution.net/constamnotes.html
I wonder what the two amendments were that failed. 12th Amendment right to a good Dental Plan?
As Genghis Connie would say HAH HAH!
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Post by: dogma
Frazzled wrote:dogma wrote:Frazzled wrote:I clearly hope you see you're arguing for tyranny.
The Bill of Rights wasn't passed by popular vote, was that tyrannical?
Er, I believe it was actually. 2/3 of the States.
So, if Congress passed a law prohibiting discrimination based on sexuality you would consider that a popular vote? You'll be alone in that belief Fraz.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Frazzled wrote:Greebynog wrote:Doesn't the Declaration of Independance contain words to the effect of all men are created equal under God, and that every man has certain inalienable rights, including the right to pursue happiness? What if that happiness is to be found within the security of a loving marriage?
What if that happiness means you like to eat babies? Do that mean you have a right to eat babies? What if Bob wants to marry a goat to give him that happiness?
I'm painting myself into a corner here on a topic I don't actually disagree with (aka gays want to suffer in marriage, hey its their funeral...  ), so will defer further argument.
Is cool. Is nice to have someone throwing up the other side without just defending it senselessly.
And you raise an interesting point. Peoples freedoms need to be measured against one another. Some are given up, but the ones remaining can be enforced. Eating babies, NAMBLA, Animal 'Lovers' etc is given up, and understandably so, because it's impacts on the life of another who cannot give consent.
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Post by: Greebynog
Frazzled wrote:Greebynog wrote:Doesn't the Declaration of Independance contain words to the effect of all men are created equal under God, and that every man has certain inalienable rights, including the right to pursue happiness? What if that happiness is to be found within the security of a loving marriage?
What if that happiness means you like to eat babies? Do that mean you have a right to eat babies? What if Bob wants to marry a goat to give him that happiness?
I'm painting myself into a corner here on a topic I don't actually disagree with (aka gays want to suffer in marriage, hey its their funeral...  ), so will defer further argument.
Fair point, but again I would argue that the marriage of two same-sex partners is a very different proposition to eating babies or marrying a goat, as it is between two consenting adults. I think that the 'all men are created equal' part is more prescient in this case, why should some have the right to marry who they love and not others if all men are equal?
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Post by: Frazzled
dogma wrote:Frazzled wrote:dogma wrote:Frazzled wrote:I clearly hope you see you're arguing for tyranny.
The Bill of Rights wasn't passed by popular vote, was that tyrannical?
Er, I believe it was actually. 2/3 of the States.
So, if Congress passed a law prohibiting discrimination based on sexuality you would consider that a popular vote?
My last bite at this apple-
In general yes indeedy, if signed by El Jefe and not limited by the Constitution, then thats representative democracy. Again, I really can't defend the specific of the issue-marriage-as the argument that it is a right protected under the Constitution already might have some merit in my view.
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Post by: Doctor Thunder
To me it seems like the subject of Gay Marriage is really just a symptom of a larger issue, which is the acceptance of the Gay Lifestyle.
To be honest, I haven't decided which side of that issue I fall into, but looking objectively at it, I think homosexuals are pushing for acceptance when the best they're going to get is tolerance.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Why is tolerance the best they are going to get?
I'm bisexual, and I would never, ever plump for mere tolerance. What I do doesn't hurt anyone in any way. I am open with what I believe. And I am also more than capable of monogomy, something which non-heterosexual people are alleged to have problems with.
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Post by: Frazzled
Greebynog wrote:Frazzled wrote:Greebynog wrote:Doesn't the Declaration of Independance contain words to the effect of all men are created equal under God, and that every man has certain inalienable rights, including the right to pursue happiness? What if that happiness is to be found within the security of a loving marriage?
What if that happiness means you like to eat babies? Do that mean you have a right to eat babies? What if Bob wants to marry a goat to give him that happiness?
I'm painting myself into a corner here on a topic I don't actually disagree with (aka gays want to suffer in marriage, hey its their funeral...  ), so will defer further argument.
Fair point, but again I would argue that the marriage of two same-sex partners is a very different proposition to eating babies or marrying a goat, as it is between two consenting adults. I think that the 'all men are created equal' part is more prescient in this case, why should some have the right to marry who they love and not others if all men are equal?
Thats not legal binding language (wrong document). Fortunately somewhat similar language has been expressed in later amendments to the Constitution, enacted after that little tiff known as the Civil War. Ah here we go:
Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. Ratified 7/9/1868. Note History
1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
So class-equal protection found here
right to proerty found here
marriage has been viewed legally as, among many things including a right pain in the butt, to be a contractual property right.
Roll to Hit with the Great US Constitution Melta Cannon of Liberty
Roll to Penetrate with the Great US Constitution Melta Cannon of Liberty
Roll damage with the Great US Constitution Melta Cannon of Liberty
Result: Destruction of the forces of Tyranny
SCORE A DIRECT HIT!
Witty reposte
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Post by: Doctor Thunder
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Why is tolerance the best they are going to get?
I'm bisexual, and I would never, ever plump for mere tolerance. What I do doesn't hurt anyone in any way. I am open with what I believe. And I am also more than capable of monogomy, something which non-heterosexual people are alleged to have problems with.
Believe me, I feel your pain, man. My people have been trying to acheive acceptance for around 200 years and the best we've achieved is tolerance. We're not being genocidally hunted anymore, but most of the country still hates our guts for reasons I'll never understand.
I define tolerance as meaning that you are allowed to live your own way, while I define acceptance as an additional level where your way is actually treated as equally valid. Gays may win the legal ability to marry, but whether or not the majority of people consider it an equally valid lifestyle is a battle I don't think can be won.
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Post by: reds8n
Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. Ratified 7/9/1868. Note History
1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws
All highly commendable.
This all applied to women straight away did it then ? And black people ?
Would not banning same sex partners from marrying be abridging their privileges then ?
" ..any person within its jurisdiction.." Guantanamo is.... naahhh, let's not go there.
Literally upon reflection.
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Post by: Frazzled
Why marriage is not always a great idea.
Wives (gayor straight) frown on letting you watch these shows of deep intellect:
http://tv.yahoo.com/the-victoria-39-s-secret-fashion-show/show/43369/photos/1
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Post by: Frazzled
reds8n wrote:Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. Ratified 7/9/1868. Note History
1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws
All highly commendable.
This all applied to women straight away did it then ? And black people ?
Would not banning same sex partners from marrying be abridging their privileges then ?
" ..any person within its jurisdiction.." Guantanamo is.... naahhh, let's not go there.
Literally upon reflection. 
So you get the train and the flawless victory? (note to directly answer this was instituted after the Civil War. The lives of hundreds of thousands payed in blood to put those words in the Constitution-salute to the honored dead)
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Frazzled wrote:Thats the other argument, that this is being pushed by a very vocal very small minority in conflict to the traditions of Democracy.
Its a conservative argument that I agree with. If you want to change something, do it properly. Win a vote. Get enough legislators on your side to pass legislation. What happened is that a court short circuited the democratic process and imposed it. Thats not democracy thats despotism.
Win the vote. Win your rights.
That is what has gradually been happening throughout the western world. Gay marriage is now available in all but name in a number of countries. The civil union law in the UK has been broadly accepted and we have already has our first gay divorces.
The recent case in California was a reverse step, brought about by democracy, and of course democracy can reverse again in the future.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Frazzled wrote:10%-thats a substantial overstatment.
Correct. The 10% number comes from a poorly-controlled study. The population studied was gay-friendly, and the scope of inclusion was broad. It's akin to asking Dakka how many people have ever played a game of 40k, and then using that to generalize to the population at large. Basically, that 10% figure sets a *very* generous upper bound on the number of gays. If you do a true random sample with proper statistical controls, the number of people who currently self-identify as actively bi/gay is considerably smaller. Interestingly, despite the popularity of what the Intarwebz, lesbianism is less common than male homosexuality. ____ If people actually care about the numbers, I can pull details from my library later tonight.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Greebynog wrote:it's an act of dehumanising,
saying that these people are abnormal,
and lower class citezens than straight people.
As for the arguments saying this is one step away from letting paedophiles and bestiaphiles marry is just utterly offensive, as it places gay people into the same category as these practises and perversions.
Being gay is not perverted or wrong, it's love and sex between two consenting adults.
By definition:
No, it isn't. They're still human.
Yes, they are abnormal. When more than 95% of the population is goes one way, and only around 5% go another, by any numerical definition, that's abnormal.
Given that they have additional "Hate Crime" protection that straight persons do NOT enjoy, I have to disagree with this completely.
If you're offended, that's too bad. It's a fact, though.
When you consider that 95% of the population defines the norm, then by definition, it is a perversion of the norm.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
10% came from the original McKinsey study. It was a flawed study whose main virtue was that it was the first serious attempt to survey sexual behaviour -- hithertoo a taboo subject for clinicians -- and thus broke an important barrier.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
dogma wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:
What's most amusing is that, in the social sphere, every single one of them comes true.
So why you may not like the argument, the history of society proves that they actually *are* always valid, and always proven to be so. It just takes time.
That isn't a slippery slope John, that is a direct consequence of the Federal dole.
Not really, because the example you cited wasn't even a slippery slope argument.
And yet, the argument was that it's be OK to use Federal money this way because the expenditures would be limited in scope and duration.
So the analogy strongly holds in terms of making a Federal right to "gay marriage" not opening the door to incestuous / pedophilic / bestial "marriage".
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Frazzled wrote:John's argument (correct me if I am wrong) is that they already have all these rights.
Correct.
And they have additional Hate Crime and Anti-Discrimination protections by State and Federal Law. I also happen to disagree that Hate Crimes are especially heinous. If they're crimes, then they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, just like any other crimes.
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Post by: Ozymandias
Frazzled wrote:Thats the other argument, that this is being pushed by a very vocal very small minority in conflict to the traditions of Democracy.
Its a conservative argument that I agree with. If you want to change something, do it properly. Win a vote. Get enough legislators on your side to pass legislation. What happened is that a court short circuited the democratic process and imposed it. Thats not democracy thats despotism.
Win the vote. Win your rights.
C'mon Frazz, don't you see the issue with that? Ever heard of Tyranny of the Majority? In a Democracy rights are there specifically to protect the minorities, no matter how small the minority!
Just because something is a tradition doesn't mean that it's good or appropriate. Slavery is as old a tradition as marriage yet we all agree (hopefully) that the abolition of slaver was progress.
And to the Civil Unions are the same as Marriage: Separate but Equal inherently isn't!
Ozymandias, King of Kings
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Post by: Frazzled
Did you miss the Constitutional discussion just a few posts above?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
dogma wrote:Not really, it the case of a small minority forcing people to accept their views, not practice them.
It isn't the same, but the concept is similar in that it is founded on denying rights to people because they are different.
Of course, the consequences are different for them as they are essentially being forced to marry a partner whom they are not sexually attracted to.
So, you aren't opposed to gay marriage so long as they don't use 'your' word? That's pretty shallow, John.
And they shouldn't have to. Unless your advocating retributive violence, but that cant be true, because then you'd be advocating terrorism.
And I'm saying that the majority should only have to *tolerate* their existence, but never actually *accept* them.
Except, gender *is* a real difference, while "race" is more of an artificial construct. If you ignore the gender as a difference (and it's pretty real, you can check the chromosones), you might as well ignore age, which is a huge slippery slope, particularly when you go back into the history of child brides. Which then makes NAMBLA / pedo legal. Go, go pedo!
And marrying people that one isn't attracted to is in what way bad? Are you even aware that roughly half of the world practices arranged marriage? And that arranged marriages don't turn out any worse than romantic ones?
When words have no meaning, then what's the point?
Interestingly, it was the gays advocating anti-Catholic, anti-Mormon violence in the wake of Prop 8's passage. You can check the news if you don't believe me.
BTW, nice play of "terrorism" card. By extension of Godwin's Law, I automatically win.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Doctor Thunder wrote:To me it seems like the subject of Gay Marriage is really just a symptom of a larger issue, which is the acceptance of the Gay Lifestyle.
To be honest, I haven't decided which side of that issue I fall into, but looking objectively at it, I think homosexuals are pushing for acceptance when the best they're going to get is tolerance.
QFT.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Kilkrazy wrote:10% came from the original McKinsey study. It was a flawed study whose main virtue was that it was the first serious attempt to survey sexual behaviour -- hithertoo a taboo subject for clinicians -- and thus broke an important barrier.
Exactly so.
And even today after all this progress, America's most gay-friendly city (San Francicso) is only 10% gay. This is by census, of a very small population. If you get away from SF and into the rest of the country, that number goes down in a hurry.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
BTW, I think I'm going to sign off this thread.
This is an opinion thread, and will accomplish nothing aside from the argument itself. Nobody's going to convince me that gays deserve additional rights. I'm not going to convince anyone that gays should be treated the same as the heterosexuals that make up 95+% of society.
Thanks for the discussion.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
This thread is an opinion thread. -- "What are your views on marriage?"
It's not even specifically about gay marriage and has just got detoured in that direction.
If we want a serious discussion about marriage, we should start by defining the term and establishing its legal or religious status and social purpose.
However that's a bit too far OT for me. I'm going back to painting my Megger-Deff Kopta™.
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Post by: dogma
JohnHwangDD wrote:
And yet, the argument was that it's be OK to use Federal money this way because the expenditures would be limited in scope and duration.
So the analogy strongly holds in terms of making a Federal right to "gay marriage" not opening the door to incestuous / pedophilic / bestial "marriage".
No, it doesn't, you're making two completely unrelated, even in an analogical sense, statements.
In the case of Social Security the argument was that, in most cases, expenditures would be limited in scope and duration. It was a single decisions which was made that had unintended, but not unforeseen, consequences.
Legalizing gay marriage, on the other hand, is one decision which has not necessary effect on the marriage rights of pedophilia/incest/bestiality/ or any other sexual perversion because each of those are governed by separate legal decisions, and independent trains of logical thought
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Post by: dogma
JohnHwangDD wrote:BTW, I think I'm going to sign off this thread.
This is an opinion thread, and will accomplish nothing aside from the argument itself. Nobody's going to convince me that gays deserve additional rights. I'm not going to convince anyone that gays should be treated the same as the heterosexuals that make up 95+% of society.
Thanks for the discussion.
Well John, just in case you do come back, I'm going to ask you a question. How can you presume that homosexuals would be given special treatment if they were allowed to marry when that legislation would also allow you the same freedom to marry a man?
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Post by: dogma
JohnHwangDD wrote:
And I'm saying that the majority should only have to *tolerate* their existence, but never actually *accept* them.
Except, gender *is* a real difference, while "race" is more of an artificial construct. If you ignore the gender as a difference (and it's pretty real, you can check the chromosones), you might as well ignore age, which is a huge slippery slope, particularly when you go back into the history of child brides. Which then makes NAMBLA / pedo legal. Go, go pedo!
Why must we also ignore age? There is a clear sense in which society defines an individual as being capable of making rational decisions.
Hell, if you really want a slippery slope argument, how 'bout this one: If we are going to define gender purely on the basis of chromosomes why don't we start genetically screening people in order to determine which ones are fit to bear the 'right' kind of children. After all, there is no difference right? :S
JohnHwangDD wrote:
And marrying people that one isn't attracted to is in what way bad? Are you even aware that roughly half of the world practices arranged marriage? And that arranged marriages don't turn out any worse than romantic ones?
But we don't practice arranged marriage in this country, John, so that's absolutely irrelevant.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
When words have no meaning, then what's the point?
Words have the meaning we give them John, and allowing homosexuals to marry would in no know way change your ability to assign meaning to the word 'marriage' however you choose.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Interestingly, it was the gays advocating anti-Catholic, anti-Mormon violence in the wake of Prop 8's passage. You can check the news if you don't believe me.
I thought you said they should lay down their lives for their rights, seems like a pretty good way to do that is to incite riots.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
BTW, nice play of "terrorism" card. By extension of Godwin's Law, I automatically win.
I fail to see the relevance. You wanted homosexuals to 'lay down their lives for their rights', which is pretty bold endorsement for retributive force, which is a broad category of resistance tactics that includes terrorism.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
@Dogma: Apparently, you're familiar with what laying down one's life means. I'm coming from more of an Eastern POV. So I'm envisioning things like Buddhist Monks self-immolating, Ghandi going on a hunger strike, Indian demonstrators standing in the face of British machine guns, along with American Civil Rights marchers standing in the face of police brutality.
*You* are the one advocating riots, not me.
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Post by: sebster
Greebynog wrote:The ten percent figure is widely used by Gay rights movements, the most recent study in the UK put the figure at between 6 and 9%, hence the 'around' qualifier in my above statement. Regardless of stats, the argument stands, the number is unimportant.
As has Kilkrazy already mentioned it was the Kinsey report that originally came up with the 10% figure. He interviewed people at a mental institute, at a time when people could be condemned to that institution for homosexuality. It's no surprise the hospital reported a sustantial homosexual population.
The actual percentage of gay people is basically whatever you want it to be. Sexuality is hopelessly complex and very difficult to define. Is a person gay or straight if they once had a gay relationship. Does it matter if it was a one night thing or a long term thing? Does it matter if the relationship ended for reasons other than gender, if the person wasn't interested in another gay relationship?
Frazzled wrote:Thats the other argument, that this is being pushed by a very vocal very small minority in conflict to the traditions of Democracy.
Its a conservative argument that I agree with. If you want to change something, do it properly. Win a vote. Get enough legislators on your side to pass legislation. What happened is that a court short circuited the democratic process and imposed it. Thats not democracy thats despotism.
Win the vote. Win your rights.
That's hopelessly circular.
When do they deserve the rights given to other citizens?
They deserve the rights when they get them by winning the vote.
How do they earn your vote in extending rights to them?
They will get my vote when they deserve it.
Greebynog wrote:As for the polygamy arguments, as far as I'm concerned, if all the adults are consenting, then again, who cares? Marriage in this case is a seperate, and highly complex issue, and one unrelated entirely to the issue of gay rights to marriage.
Having multiple partners isn't currenty a crime. Marrying multiple people is, and while in an ideal world you'd be able to enter marriage arrangements with as many willing people as possible there are a lot of issues with these arrangements in reality. How do you account for welfare and tax conditions? What should the courts consider when organising the seperation of one or more people from the group? How do you deal with child custody?
Frazzled wrote:What if that happiness means you like to eat babies? Do that mean you have a right to eat babies? What if Bob wants to marry a goat to give him that happiness?
I'm painting myself into a corner here on a topic I don't actually disagree with (aka gays want to suffer in marriage, hey its their funeral...  ), so will defer further argument.
Come on, are you thinking about this at all?
Babies have a right to live. By eating one, you have imposed your own desires onto that baby's right.
This is obviously very different to a gay marriage, as no-one outside the marriage has any right infringed by that marriage.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Why is tolerance the best they are going to get?
I'm trying to figure out what us straight people are supposed to be tolerating. What is you're doing that make my life any harder?
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Post by: sebster
JohnHwangDD wrote:Except, gender *is* a real difference, while "race" is more of an artificial construct. If you ignore the gender as a difference (and it's pretty real, you can check the chromosones), you might as well ignore age, which is a huge slippery slope, particularly when you go back into the history of child brides. Which then makes NAMBLA / pedo legal. Go, go pedo!
No, it doesn't. Gender is a wholly different thing to informed consent. Words. Meaning. All that stuff.
And marrying people that one isn't attracted to is in what way bad? Are you even aware that roughly half of the world practices arranged marriage? And that arranged marriages don't turn out any worse than romantic ones?
When words have no meaning, then what's the point?
If you want to marry someone you aren't attracted to, you're welcome. I want to know why you want to stop two consenting adults marrying each other because they're both guys.
BTW, nice play of "terrorism" card. By extension of Godwin's Law, I automatically win.
Godwin's law is about references made to Hitler, it is a joke about the decreasing signal to noise ratio found in a thread as it gets longer. It doesn't make any mention of winning.
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Post by: sebster
JohnHwangDD wrote:BTW, I think I'm going to sign off this thread.
This is an opinion thread, and will accomplish nothing aside from the argument itself. Nobody's going to convince me that gays deserve additional rights. I'm not going to convince anyone that gays should be treated the same as the heterosexuals that make up 95+% of society.
Thanks for the discussion.
Well, considering you came back...
They aren't additional rights. They want the rights other people benefit from right now.
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Post by: sebster
JohnHwangDD wrote:@Dogma: Apparently, you're familiar with what laying down one's life means. I'm coming from more of an Eastern POV. So I'm envisioning things like Buddhist Monks self-immolating, Ghandi going on a hunger strike, Indian demonstrators standing in the face of British machine guns, along with American Civil Rights marchers standing in the face of police brutality.
*You* are the one advocating riots, not me.
Why does someone have to suffer for a logical statement to be true?
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Post by: Mekniakal
This thread is like a roller coaster of pain.
1. The reason why homosexuals want "marriage" rather then a civil union is because in many states, civil unions don't grant the same rights as marriage. For example, in many states the
adoption rights for a married couple is different then for those in a civil union.
2. Marriage isn't a religious institution and shouldn't be monopolized as such. Even if it is, some religions, and christian sects are OKAY WITH IT. Just because your church doesn't
want to marry gays because they think they are icky/sinful/whatever doesn't mean that Bhuddishts, Unitarians, Hundus should be bound by your specific beliefs. YOU ARE IMPOSING YOUR
BELIEFS ON OTHER CONSENTING ADULTS AND RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS.
3. "Tyranny of the Majority" people. Remember, interracial marriage was originally illegal. This was only over turned by the supreme court because they ruled that it was
unconstitutional to bar interracial couples to marry. If this was given as a vote to the majority of people at the time, they would have voted to keep interracial marriage illegal.
This is also very important for people in the majority. Unless you want your rights taken away from you once you fall out of the majority due to a simple democratic vote.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
sebster wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:BTW, I think I'm going to sign off this thread.
Nobody's going to convince me that gays deserve additional rights.
I'm not going to convince anyone that gays should be treated the same as the heterosexuals that make up 95+% of society.
Well, considering you came back...
They aren't additional rights.
There is nothing to discuss, but a few things to clarify.
"Hate Crime" protection is an additional right that is NOT afforded to straight people. As is non-discrimination law that is similarly NOT granted to straight people. If gays have these additional laws for their benefit, they have additional rights not available to straights.
Also, I wanted to further clarify the "95+%" number I gave above - my memory was off by a factor of two.
According to _Sex in America_, throught the US as a whole, less than 3% of males self-identify as homosexual, while less than 2% of females do so. When you consider male-female ratios in the use, I should have written "roughly 98%".
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Post by: dogma
JohnHwangDD wrote:@Dogma: Apparently, you're familiar with what laying down one's life means. I'm coming from more of an Eastern POV. So I'm envisioning things like Buddhist Monks self-immolating, Ghandi going on a hunger strike, Indian demonstrators standing in the face of British machine guns, along with American Civil Rights marchers standing in the face of police brutality.
*You* are the one advocating riots, not me.
No, you're envisioning a highly idealized, and self-selected memory of the renunciation of one's life. For every Mohandas Gandhi there was a Rani of Jhansi, for every Martin Luther King a Huey P. Newton. It is disingenuous to consider the positive elements of any push for civil rights without simultaneously considering the negative ones, as they are absolutely codependent.
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Post by: dogma
JohnHwangDD wrote:
There is nothing to discuss, but a few things to clarify.
"Hate Crime" protection is an additional right that is NOT afforded to straight people. As is non-discrimination law that is similarly NOT granted to straight people. If gays have these additional laws for their benefit, they have additional rights not available to straights.
No, they don't. The punishment accorded for a given legal transgression has nothing to do with any given individual's rights. Gay people have almost all the same rights as straight ones, the punishments for trampling upon those rights are simply more severe.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Also, I wanted to further clarify the "95+%" number I gave above - my memory was off by a factor of two.
According to _Sex in America_, throught the US as a whole, less than 3% of males self-identify as homosexual, while less than 2% of females do so. When you consider male-female ratios in the use, I should have written "roughly 98%".
The size of the minority is irrelevant when considering that minority's rights.
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Post by: sebster
JohnHwangDD wrote:There is nothing to discuss, but a few things to clarify.
"Hate Crime" protection is an additional right that is NOT afforded to straight people. As is non-discrimination law that is similarly NOT granted to straight people. If gays have these additional laws for their benefit, they have additional rights not available to straights.
That's irrelevant. We're talking about a specific right - gay marriage.
I'm not much of a fan of hate crime legislation either, by the way. But like you claim to be, I am a fan of giving everyone the same rights under the law, and that would include gay marriage. Good to have you on-side.
Also, I wanted to further clarify the "95+%" number I gave above - my memory was off by a factor of two.
According to _Sex in America_, throught the US as a whole, less than 3% of males self-identify as homosexual, while less than 2% of females do so. When you consider male-female ratios in the use, I should have written "roughly 98%".
That sounds closer to the right number. It's also pretty irrelvant, it could be three people total - they still deserve equal treatment.
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Post by: Gitzbitah
Out of curiousity, what terms of endearment would a homosexual use for each other? Husband and husband seems rather confusing, as does wife and wife. In the interest of clarity, perhaps the homosexual movement needs to invent its own terms for the institution they wish to possess.
Our society defines many differences which we treat as equals. If this were not the case, there wouldn't be a box for 'race' on any official forms. I don't see why this level of equality could not be preserved while keeping a distinct cultural identity, which I imagine is the point.
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Post by: malfred
If my wife were gay, I'd think she'd want me to watch this show and watch with me.
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Post by: Frazzled
You clearly would be wrong Malf. her annoyance that you would want to would outweigh any prurient benefit
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
The main problem with the gay marriage argument is also the great strength it currently enjoys. It lacks a set ‘pro’ argument. It changes based on what the ‘con’ argument is.
For example:
PRO: People should be allowed to marry who they love without government involvement.
CON: That clears way for pedophiles and bestiality.
PRO: Homosexuality is not the same as those abnormalities.
CON: 98% of humanity is Heterosexual. Therefore homosexuality is abnormal.
PRO: This is about the rights of a minority.
CON: Choice does not make a minority.
PRO: People are born homosexual. It is not a choice.
CON: Pedophiles are born with their lusts. In fact, a lot of ‘normal’ guys like the looks of teenage girls. That is natural, but wrong. This leads full circle to the pedophile/bestial argument.
Again, I am not insulting anyone. I am saying the arguments are individually weak. There needs to be a more solid intellectual argument that currently is being used.
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Post by: Ahtman
Gitzbitah wrote:Out of curiousity, what terms of endearment would a homosexual use for each other? Husband and husband seems rather confusing, as does wife and wife. In the interest of clarity, perhaps the homosexual movement needs to invent its own terms for the institution they wish to possess.
'Husband' and 'wife' aren't terms of endearment, they are specific terms that describe a type of relationship; 'honey-bear', 'baby', and schnookums' are terms of endearment. In civil unions 'partner' is usually used, though depending on context husband and wife may/can still be used.
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Post by: Frazzled
You left out "the old ball and chain"
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Post by: reds8n
Gen. Lee Losing wrote:The main problem with the gay marriage argument is also the great strength it currently enjoys. It lacks a set ‘pro’ argument. It changes based on what the ‘con’ argument is.
For example:
PRO: People should be allowed to marry who they love without government involvement.
CON: That clears way for pedophiles and bestiality.
No, we're saying " two consenting adults of legal age and sound mind should be allowed to marry who they love without interference". This in no reasonable or logical way clears the way for pedophiles and bestiality.
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
One law determines "Age of Consent" and another law determines "Marriage is heterosexual". In both situations, there is a law stopping them. We are talking about the morals behind the law (for gay marriage we weigh freedom of the individual against traditions and prevailing culture). If we open that up to discussion, then the age of consent is also under scrutiny as it is a law that is arbitrarily assigning an age for sex. In nature, menstruation is the age of consent. This ties in with the “Born that way/natural” argument. That is the point I am making. Many of the laws about marriage are based on an old-fashion point of view. We cannot pick and chose when to apply a moral.
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
I also want to make it clear, I am NOT an advocate for destroying children! I am just trying debate logic.
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Post by: dogma
Gen. Lee Losing wrote:One law determines "Age of Consent" and another law determines "Marriage is heterosexual". In both situations, there is a law stopping them. We are talking about the morals behind the law (for gay marriage we weigh freedom of the individual against traditions and prevailing culture). If we open that up to discussion, then the age of consent is also under scrutiny as it is a law that is arbitrarily assigning an age for sex. In nature, menstruation is the age of consent. This ties in with the “Born that way/natural” argument. That is the point I am making. Many of the laws about marriage are based on an old-fashion point of view. We cannot pick and chose when to apply a moral.
Of course, because the Constitution assures the separation of Church and State, the idea that a moral argument can hold legal water is fallacious. The debate is not about whether or not gay marriage is 'right', but whether or not the state has the power to utilize legislation to define that 'rightness' without a compelling secular argument.
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
dogma wrote: Of course, because the Constitution assures the separation of Church and State, the idea that a moral argument can hold legal water is fallacious. The debate is not about whether or not gay marriage is 'right', but whether or not the state has the power to utilize legislation to define that 'rightness' without a compelling secular argument. You are very right! But the problem with opening this 'Pandora's box' is that the age of consent is an arbitrary moral. What is the 'legal water' about the magical age of 18? 17years and 364 days old is illegal. Add a day and it is A-Okay! What is the legal justification to stop polygamy? If the persons are consenting adults? We can bring up thoughts to support all of these moral rulings, but in the end it comes down to Morals. Right and wrong (viewed thru the democratic process of majority rules).
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
Also, the Constitution does not state a separation of Morals and State. The rule of law is at its heart about Morals. Which is tricky as morals tend to be loosely interpreted. Is it okay to kill someone? Not by our morals. But head-hunters had no such qualms. So in the absence of morality, there can be no law.
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Post by: Frazzled
Actually the Constitution doesn't say anything about a separation of church and state either...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
1. no state religion
2. no interference with religion
in essence protection of religion FROM the state.
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Post by: Belphegor
to Frazzled:
So basically if a couple is married under an ordained minister (or similar marriage maker) the state should have to accept it with equal legal validity as a hetro-couple since otherwise the exercise of that minister's religion is being prohibited via the state.
Correct?
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Post by: Frazzled
No, but only because the the ordained minister has to follow the law in that state for who may be married and when.
Remember marriage is religious but its also a contractual & property right (the older use for). Hence the state involvement. Now you see why the state should not be involved...
Let the state determine legal contractual rights and let the religions choose who they will permit to "marry."
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
Frazzled is smarter than I. He wins.
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Post by: Belphegor
So what is the line of the law specifically?
If a couple declares themselves married, is this an offense? What would be the punishment?
If other individuals honor that 'marriage' by treating them as such. What would be the punishment for that?
(example, a family rate at a local restaurant or hotel.)
Edit: typo
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
I have no problem with your scenario, Belphegor.
Your first question is answered that they are not breaking the law with their declaration, as they are not really married.
However, in the second question, if that same couple insisted that I treat them as such, then I have a problem.
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Post by: Frazzled
Actually in many states, by making that declaration, they are legally married at that point, and thus screwed...
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Post by: Belphegor
to Gen. Lee Losing:
If their marriage was sanctioned by the state would you treat them as such?
If your community treated them as married, but the state did not legally dignify their union would you take offense to a couple's 'insistence'?
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Post by: dogma
Gen. Lee Losing wrote:
You are very right! But the problem with opening this 'Pandora's box' is that the age of consent is an arbitrary moral. What is the 'legal water' about the magical age of 18? 17years and 364 days old is illegal. Add a day and it is A-Okay!
But it isn't a religiously motivated model. Aesthetic arguments are perfectly acceptable with respect to legislation, so long as they do not turn on God, or any equally circular mode of argumentation.
Gen. Lee Losing wrote:
What is the legal justification to stop polygamy? If the persons are consenting adults? We can bring up thoughts to support all of these moral rulings, but in the end it comes down to Morals. Right and wrong (viewed thru the democratic process of majority rules).
Polygamy is quite easy in that the traditional form of it necessarily requires an unequal application of rights. Essentially, men can marry more than one woman, but women can not marry more than one man. There are also further considerations with respect to the division of property, partial divorces (1 person leaving a 3 person union), and child rights. It certainly comes down to morals, but being able to substantiate your morals with evidence is what makes them legitimate.
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Post by: dogma
Frazzled wrote:Actually the Constitution doesn't say anything about a separation of church and state either...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
1. no state religion
2. no interference with religion
in essence protection of religion FROM the state.
Which is absolutely tacit to the separation of church and state. After all, if the state entertains a religious line of argumentation it is interfering in the practice of all other religions by sanctioning the practices of one of them.
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
Belphegor wrote:to Gen. Lee Losing:
If their marriage was sanctioned by the state would you treat them as such?
If your community treated them as married, but the state did not legally dignify their union would you take offense to a couple's 'insistence'?
If the government sanctioned their marriage, I would treat them like a married couple. Honestly. All my argument was trying to show holes in the "big debate".
If my community were to treat any alternate life style as married, I would not treat them as married. Because they are not. I would still be respectful and even friendly. But I would not give them a discount on the Honey-Moon suite, or the family rate at the buffet.
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
dogma wrote:Gen. Lee Losing wrote:
You are very right! But the problem with opening this 'Pandora's box' is that the age of consent is an arbitrary moral. What is the 'legal water' about the magical age of 18? 17years and 364 days old is illegal. Add a day and it is A-Okay!
But it isn't a religiously motivated model. Aesthetic arguments are perfectly acceptable with respect to legislation, so long as they do not turn on God, or any equally circular mode of argumentation.
Gen. Lee Losing wrote:
What is the legal justification to stop polygamy? If the persons are consenting adults? We can bring up thoughts to support all of these moral rulings, but in the end it comes down to Morals. Right and wrong (viewed thru the democratic process of majority rules).
Polygamy is quite easy in that the traditional form of it necessarily requires an unequal application of rights. Essentially, men can marry more than one woman, but women can not marry more than one man. There are also further considerations with respect to the division of property, partial divorces (1 person leaving a 3 person union), and child rights. It certainly comes down to morals, but being able to substantiate your morals with evidence is what makes them legitimate.
Answer 1: The argument did not include God/religion. Even in ancient Greece, when homosexuality was accepted and even encouraged, marriage was between a man and woman. So historic precedence of a society accepting homosexuality but respecting heterosexual marriage.
Answer 2: The traditional form of polygamy is again the most "natural" model of marriage once 'religion' is out of the way. In nature, most mammals have a dominate male that is the sole breeder with a herd/troop/school/pride/etc. of females. So if we are using the 'natural' argument, polygamy has a better footing than homosexuality.
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
dogma wrote:
Which is absolutely tacit to the separation of church and state. After all, if the state entertains a religious line of argumentation it is interfering in the practice of all other religions by sanctioning the practices of one of them.
By that line of thinking, since Christians believe "Thou shalt not kill" and the government agrees, they are interfering with religions that make use of human sacrifice. Is it wrong to kill people? I think so! But that is my Morals. Others are free to disagree.
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Post by: Belphegor
Slightly off topic:
If both parties are in consent human, one human should be able to kill another. (terminally ill and such)
Murder (purposeful killing without consent) is an issue because it takes the rights away from another human.
Oh, because no one brought this up from what I scanned:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo
also same sex long term mates are found in many vertebrates (but normal in a minority of each)
go go penguin power
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Post by: dogma
Gen. Lee Losing wrote:
Answer 1: The argument did not include God/religion. Even in ancient Greece, when homosexuality was accepted and even encouraged, marriage was between a man and woman. So historic precedence of a society accepting homosexuality but respecting heterosexual marriage.
Of course in those days marriage was a matter of reproduction and little else as women were forbidden from owning property, and children were raised communally. In the modern age marriage has little to do with reproduction as an act, and quite a bit to do with human affection and property. So the analogy is a false one.
Gen. Lee Losing wrote:
Answer 2: The traditional form of polygamy is again the most "natural" model of marriage once 'religion' is out of the way. In nature, most mammals have a dominate male that is the sole breeder with a herd/troop/school/pride/etc. of females. So if we are using the 'natural' argument, polygamy has a better footing than homosexuality.
But polygamy is not a ubiquitous alternative to breeding pairs. Indeed, the tendency varies considerably from species to species, and so to regard non-humans as evidence for possible human practice isn't terribly relevant. Moreover, there are plenty of animals with homosexual tendencies including certain penguins, and Bonobos. Moreover, it isn't logically defensible to utilize examples from the animal kingdom when humans are widely viewed as exceptions with respect to that classification.
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
YUCK!
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo about those above mentioned Bonobos.
"Sexual activity happens within the immediate family as well as outside it,"
I hope noone uses this to support homosexual marriage!
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Post by: Belphegor
Nope, just throwing them in as little factoid to show the general illegitimate claims of "nature" driven laws.
That, and their just an interesting closely related species.
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
dogma wrote:
Of course in those days marriage was a matter of reproduction and little else as women were forbidden from owning property, and children were raised communally. In the modern age marriage has little to do with reproduction as an act, and quite a bit to do with human affection and property. So the analogy is a false one.
But polygamy is not a ubiquitous alternative to breeding pairs. Indeed, the tendency varies considerably from species to species, and so to regard non-humans as evidence for possible human practice isn't terribly relevant. Moreover, there are plenty of animals with homosexual tendencies including certain penguins, and Bonobos. Moreover, it isn't logically defensible to utilize examples from the animal kingdom when humans are widely viewed as exceptions with respect to that classification.
1 - I will look into the 'women forbidden to own property" thing. I thought Sparta was full of woman ownerships. But as to your point that the purpose of marriage has changed, that is your opinion. 52% of California disagreed.
2- You are right. Humans are not animals. But if I were to categorize the sexual habits of our species, I would say that we are heterosexual with a tendency for abnormalities.
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
Belphegor wrote:Nope, just throwing them in as little factoid to show the general illegitimate claims of "nature" driven laws.
That, and their just an interesting closely related species.
Okay. Thank you! ( I dont want anyone to think I was 'bashing'  )
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Post by: Ozymandias
Gen. Lee Losing wrote:I also want to make it clear, I am NOT an advocate for destroying children! I am just trying debate logic.
If you are trying to debate logic, you may want to stop using logical fallacies. You know, like slippery slope.
In order for you to say that gay marriage will lead to pedophilia and bestiality marriage you have to show WHY that is the case, not just say it is so. So you have to show how two adults getting married will lead to an adult and a child being allowed to marry or a man and a horse will be allowed to marry. Otherwise, you are committing the Slipper Slope fallacy. Go on now, show us in a logical argument how those will happen.
Ozymandias, King of Kings
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
Ozymandias wrote:
If you are trying to debate logic, you may want to stop using logical fallacies. You know, like slippery slope.
In order for you to say that gay marriage will lead to pedophilia and bestiality marriage you have to show WHY that is the case, not just say it is so. So you have to show how two adults getting married will lead to an adult and a child being allowed to marry or a man and a horse will be allowed to marry. Otherwise, you are committing the Slipper Slope fallacy. Go on now, show us in a logical argument how those will happen.
Ozymandias, King of Kings
Because the legal argument uses the same tools. That is the whole point of my posts. Not to say "You are wrong" but to say "the argument is flawed". Gay marriage is not a bomb that will blow up America! But the argument that "it is natural" applies to pedophiles too. The argument that it is "only one law in the way" of gay marriage applies to pedophiles too. The argument that "Love is all you need" applies to pedophiles too. It is the flawed arguments that I am combating.
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Post by: Ozymandias
That's silly. Then we shouldn't have any marriage because love between a man and a woman is "natural" too.
Ozymandias, King of Kings
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Post by: Belphegor
I believe (as I stated WAY earlier) that marriage should be de-legalized.
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Post by: Ozymandias
And I agree that's an ideal solution. However, I think it's unlikely. If we can't grant the word to a minority, we'll never be able to take away the word from the majority.
Ozymandias, King of Kings
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
Ozymandias wrote:That's silly. Then we shouldn't have any marriage because love between a man and a woman is "natural" too.
Ozymandias, King of Kings
In the absence of morals, we rely on history and public opinion. Both sided with heterosexual marriage laws.
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
Ozymandias wrote:And I agree that's an ideal solution. However, I think it's unlikely. If we can't grant the word to a minority, we'll never be able to take away the word from the majority.
Ozymandias, King of Kings
I see you live in CA like me. What rights are in marriage in CA that are not in Civil Unions? I am honestly curious.
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Post by: malfred
Sexual intercourse plays a major role in Bonobo society, being used as a greeting, a means of conflict resolution, and post-conflict reconciliation.
"Hey."
"Hey."
"Malfred."
"Ozymandias."
[Five minutes later]
"That was good. On to the game?"
"Of course! What do you want this hill to be?"
"Let's roll off for it."
[Five minutes later]
"Hrm. Okay. You win. Clear terrain it is. Let's play?"
"Sure."
[Two hours later]
"Good game. No hard feelings man?"
"Let's see."
[Five minutes later]
"Nah."
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Post by: Ozymandias
So you are saying that homosexuality is immoral? Strange, my gay uncle is a hell of a lot more moral than just about anyone I know. He and his partner have been together 20 years. I've been with my wife 2 months. Which is the stronger relationship?
Also, History and Public Opinion allowed for slavery once upon a time.
We can do this dance all day.
Ozymandias, King of Kings
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Post by: malfred
Wait, slavery isn't allowed anymore?
Crap.
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
Ozymandias wrote:So you are saying that homosexuality is immoral? Strange, my gay uncle is a hell of a lot more moral than just about anyone I know. He and his partner have been together 20 years. I've been with my wife 2 months. Which is the stronger relationship?
Also, History and Public Opinion allowed for slavery once upon a time.
We can do this dance all day.
Ozymandias, King of Kings
No, I was trying to say (poorly) that if we are unable to agree on what is moral, we then rely on history and popular vote. It is a fall back. (i.e. we agree killing is immoral and have no need to rely on history or a popular vote)
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Post by: Ahtman
I'm guessing by polygamy we are actually talking about polygyny? Polygamy being a more generic term.
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Post by: Ozymandias
malfred wrote:Wait, slavery isn't allowed anymore?
Crap.
Don't worry Malf, willing sex slaves are ok.
Ozymandias, King of Kings
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Post by: malfred
Crap!
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Post by: dogma
Gen. Lee Losing wrote:
1 - I will look into the 'women forbidden to own property" thing. I thought Sparta was full of woman ownerships. But as to your point that the purpose of marriage has changed, that is your opinion. 52% of California disagreed.
They may have, I was thinking primarily of Athens, and should have been more specific. Either way, people in California do not have the right to legislate that definition for other people. They can lobby for the removal of 'marriage' from the entire legal process, but they cannot make it a law which excludes a group of people based upon identity. At least not without providing significant evidence which substantiates some adverse affect of homosexual marriage in modern society.
Gen. Lee Losing wrote:
2- You are right. Humans are not animals. But if I were to categorize the sexual habits of our species, I would say that we are heterosexual with a tendency for abnormalities.
All creatures which reproduce sexually are 'heterosexual' in the broad sense. That category is meaningless with respect to any scientific conversation.
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Post by: dogma
Gen. Lee Losing wrote:
Because the legal argument uses the same tools. That is the whole point of my posts. Not to say "You are wrong" but to say "the argument is flawed". Gay marriage is not a bomb that will blow up America! But the argument that "it is natural" applies to pedophiles too. The argument that it is "only one law in the way" of gay marriage applies to pedophiles too. The argument that "Love is all you need" applies to pedophiles too. It is the flawed arguments that I am combating.
The key difference is that homosexuality has no adverse affect on either partner, without outside interference, as it is nominally just as even-handed as any heterosexual pairing per our current understanding of the age of consent.
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Post by: sebster
Frazzled wrote:No, but only because the the ordained minister has to follow the law in that state for who may be married and when.
Remember marriage is religious but its also a contractual & property right (the older use for). Hence the state involvement. Now you see why the state should not be involved...
Let the state determine legal contractual rights and let the religions choose who they will permit to "marry."
It already works this way. Gay couples are free right now to get married by any church that is willing to do it, it just won't have any legal standing. This isn't good enough, as you're still excluding people from establishing contractual relationships that are freely accessible to others.
Gen. Lee Losing wrote: What is the legal justification to stop polygamy? If the persons are consenting adults? We can bring up thoughts to support all of these moral rulings, but in the end it comes down to Morals. Right and wrong (viewed thru the democratic process of majority rules).
It quickly becomes a legal nightmare, as welfare and tax breaks are subjective enough when looking at married couples, they become a nightmare when you have multiple people in the relationship. Then you have to start thinking about asset splits and child custody in the event of divorce. It’s an absolute nightmare.
Compare that to gay marriage, which has none of these problems.
Answer 1: The argument did not include God/religion. Even in ancient Greece, when homosexuality was accepted and even encouraged, marriage was between a man and woman. So historic precedence of a society accepting homosexuality but respecting heterosexual marriage.
The Greek idea of homosexuality was not at like the modern notion. It was a dominant/submissive role, where an older man would take a younger boy in a mentoring role, and this included proving who was dominant by buggering him. Then the young boy would mature, take a wife and make babies. When he became an older gentleman he’d take a boy of his own.
Utterly different to modern ideas of consenting adults being free to form the relationship that makes them happy.
Answer 2: The traditional form of polygamy is again the most "natural" model of marriage once 'religion' is out of the way. In nature, most mammals have a dominate male that is the sole breeder with a herd/troop/school/pride/etc. of females. So if we are using the 'natural' argument, polygamy has a better footing than homosexuality.
It’s a good thing no-one is attempting to justify gay marriage because its natural, isn’t it? That said, there are countless documented case of homosexuality in nature.
Gen. Lee Losing wrote:By that line of thinking, since Christians believe "Thou shalt not kill" and the government agrees, they are interfering with religions that make use of human sacrifice. Is it wrong to kill people? I think so! But that is my Morals. Others are free to disagree.
Maybe you should at least read this thread before commenting. The reductor ad absurdum argument that allowing one thing means that any other random thing should also be allowed was already tried by frazzled – he used baby eating. It was pointed as silly then.
Gen. Lee Losing wrote:YUCK!
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo about those above mentioned Bonobos.
"Sexual activity happens within the immediate family as well as outside it,"
I hope noone uses this to support homosexual marriage!
Dude, nature is bizarre, and frequently ignores good Christian morals. As you’re the only one trying to use nature to determine proper morality, this is only a problem for your argument.
Belphegor wrote:I believe (as I stated WAY earlier) that marriage should be de-legalized.
It’s a legal contract. It has an effect on tax and welfare benefits. Courts can be needed to determine property splits and child access in the event of divorce. It cannot be removed from legal considerations.
Gen. Lee Losing wrote:Because the legal argument uses the same tools. That is the whole point of my posts. Not to say "You are wrong" but to say "the argument is flawed". Gay marriage is not a bomb that will blow up America! But the argument that "it is natural" applies to pedophiles too. The argument that it is "only one law in the way" of gay marriage applies to pedophiles too. The argument that "Love is all you need" applies to pedophiles too. It is the flawed arguments that I am combating.
But you’re the only one talking about ‘natural’. It’s an argument you introduced so you could tell everyone how it was flawed.
The rest of us are talking about mature, consenting adults being allowed to do something every other mature, consenting adult can already do; marry the one they love.
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
Hey Sebster.
I am sorry to have brought in the "natural" part of the argument. That was from reading comments of various news/opinion articles. It was related to the argument of "Choice" to be gay. Some said it was not a choice, but a part of their hormonal make up since birth. Other said it was a choice and thus not qualifying for the "minority" status afforded to say African Americans.
Again, I was trying to look at the argument as a whole. But the conversation kinda stuck to that one part.
My point (lost in the thread) was one of advice, really. I am not saying the subject matter was flawed, only the argument being made. If any one group wants to make a point with another group, it needs a solid presentation. My point is that the presentation on gay marriage is currently weak and needs a better argument. That's all.
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Post by: sebster
Gen. Lee Losing wrote:Hey Sebster.
I am sorry to have brought in the "natural" part of the argument. That was from reading comments of various news/opinion articles. It was related to the argument of "Choice" to be gay. Some said it was not a choice, but a part of their hormonal make up since birth. Other said it was a choice and thus not qualifying for the "minority" status afforded to say African Americans.
Again, I was trying to look at the argument as a whole. But the conversation kinda stuck to that one part.
My point (lost in the thread) was one of advice, really. I am not saying the subject matter was flawed, only the argument being made. If any one group wants to make a point with another group, it needs a solid presentation. My point is that the presentation on gay marriage is currently weak and needs a better argument. That's all.
That's fine, but the only argument here is that a consenting adult should able to marry the person they love. Is there anything you can logically deduce that's wrong with that statement?
As a piece of advice for yourself, I'd recommend against opening the choice/not a choice thing, even if you're doing it with the friendliest of intentions. A lot of gay people really dislike the assumption that it's a choice, because they can only be attracted to who they're attracted to. Other gay people dislike something very personal to them being discussed like lab rats. It doesn't worry me, but I'm not gay, and doesn't seem to have bothered anyone else here on that level... it's just for future reference.
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Post by: Mekniakal
No, being gay is a choice- just like being straight is.
A multitude of factors, genetic, societal, and personal, is what shapes a persons sexuality. First off, the biggest problem is that you think sexuality is some sort of a Gay/NotGay switch. Most behaviorists believe (and studies back this) their is a wide spectrum of sexualities, interests, and preferences, and it is silly and, simply put, stupid to try to make a complex issue into a binary choice.
Also, MARRYING THE ONE YOU LOVE ISN'T ONLY ABOUT SEX. Last time I checked, it wasn't illegal to have homosexual relationships (or straight ones, for that matter). It is about two consenting adults wanting to have a long-term relationship that is viewed as legitimate in the eyes of the law.
Gen Lee, how about you give us a decent reason to be AGAINST gay marriage?
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Post by: reds8n
Gen. Lee Losing wrote:
2- You are right. Humans are not animals.
We 're not ? I think we are. Smarter ( in some ways) and the most dominant but we are animals nevertheless. Sure there's the odd person i know who I'm convinced is a vegatable but that's life I guess.
In nature, most mammals have a dominate male that is the sole breeder with a herd/troop/school/pride/etc. of females.
Which isn't marriage is it then ?
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Post by: Frazzled
dogma wrote:Frazzled wrote:Actually the Constitution doesn't say anything about a separation of church and state either...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
1. no state religion
2. no interference with religion
in essence protection of religion FROM the state.
Which is absolutely tacit to the separation of church and state. After all, if the state entertains a religious line of argumentation it is interfering in the practice of all other religions by sanctioning the practices of one of them.
Incorrect and a total subversion of the intent, which was to protect religion and the free exercise thereof, NOT protect the government or separate it from religion.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
As long as marriage confers legal rights on the partners it has to be treated as a form of contract defined and arbitrated by law.
Although religious ceremonies are good, if the state is a secular state then religion can't be the arbiter of marriage.
If marriage does not confer any legal rights, there isn't any point having it. Let anyone call themself married if they like. It's as important as people calling themselves Jedi.
Since marriage does confer legal rights on the participants, the question is whether it is fair to discriminate against particular groups and prevent them from enjoying the rights of marriage.
The two key reasons for discriminating against rights for certain groups are:
1. Because they do not have the understanding to properly exercise the rights. This is why children and animals are not allowed to marry.
2. Because exercising these rights would cause harm to the body politic in general. This is why felons are not allowed to possess firearms or enter certain trades and professions.
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Post by: Frazzled
Sure it can Killkrazy, and I say this as the religious part is not recognized in Mexico (or at least wasn’t for a while after the revolution). It was civil with a ceremony being a “frill.”
-The government confers a package of rights-property/contract/visitation. This may be conferred onto any couple that are legally competent.
-Various religions can have reiligous weddings, and have th4e rights to restrict who they will and will not marry. Otherwise the couple can just sya they are hitched, married, partners, stuck with each other.
The rights are conferred via the government. The title is conferred by the people themselves. That’s effectively how it is now , just separating away the concept of marriage to one of partnership.
But remember, goats are not legally competent…
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
Mekniakal wrote:
Gen Lee, how about you give us a decent reason to be AGAINST gay marriage?
Let me tell you my personal belief on the matter. This is not fact, just my belief.
I think a homosexual couple should be entitled to exactly the same rights as marriage in every legal way.
I think churches and business owned by churches (say Catholic Hospitals) should be allowed to work within their beliefs.
I think the approach of "Gay marriage will happen wither you like it or not" is an attack on many religious beliefs.
I think a homosexual person is just that- A Person. People should have freedom and rights.
I think marriage between man and woman is an institution and should not be changed.
I think Civil Unions NEED to be exactly the same legally as marriage (even if the wording is exactly the same cut & paste as the wording for marriage).
In all honesty, I do not know how Civil unions are currently inferior to current marriage (not that they aren’t/t, I just don’t know.) Can anyone enlighten me?
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Post by: reds8n
AFAIK
--Civil Unions are not recognized by the federal government, so couples would not be able to file joint-tax returns or be eligible for tax breaks or protections the government affords to married couples.
Benefits:
The General Accounting Office in 1997 released a list of 1,049 benefits and protections available to heterosexual married couples. These benefits range from federal benefits, such as survivor benefits through Social Security, sick leave to care for ailing partner, tax breaks, veterans benefits and insurance breaks. They also include things like family discounts, obtaining family insurance through your employer, visiting your spouse in the hospital and making medical decisions if your partner is unable to. Civil Unions protect some of these rights, but not all of them.
Which include
Joint parental rights of children
Joint adoption
Status as "next-of-kin" for hospital visits and medical decisions
Right to make a decision about the disposal of loved ones remains
Immigration and residency for partners from other countries
Crime victims recovery benefits
Domestic violence protection orders
Judicial protections and immunity
Automatic inheritance in the absence of a will
Public safety officers death benefits
Spousal veterans benefits
Social Security
Medicare
Joint filing of tax returns
Wrongful death benefits for surviving partner and children
Bereavement or sick leave to care for partner or children
Child support
Joint Insurance Plans
Tax credits including: Child tax credit, Hope and lifetime learning credits
Deferred Compensation for pension and IRAs
Estate and gift tax benefits
Welfare and public assistance
Joint housing for elderly
Credit protection
Medical care for survivors and dependents of certain veterans
Now, I'm pretty certain that much/some of this can be covered through lawyers etc. But, and I'm not that certain about US legal costs I freely confess, I@m certain that is more expensive than a marriage license.
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
Can laws be changed to make civil unions recognized nationally? AS for the other items, can a proposition be made to give those rights to civil unions?
I was under the impression that civil unions in CA gave a fair bit of the Non-Federal issues on that list. I might be misinformed. But that was my understanding.
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Post by: reds8n
*pleads the fifth*
that's going off of some earlier google research.
As to how hard it is to affect a national change I'll bow here to those with more...hell any, knowledge in that area.
*grumbles* If you'd just do things nationally like a real country *
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Post by: malfred
reds8n wrote:
*grumbles* If you'd just do things nationally like a real country * 
No thanks. I'd miss my bail out the governor and find the money scandals like any good
Illinoisan would.
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Post by: utan
When I told my father that I was engaged, he exclaimed, "It's not too late to join the Marines!"
Great advice to anyone contemplating marriage (straight or otherwise).
It's easier to be in the military during wartime than to be married!
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Post by: Gen. Lee Losing
reds8n wrote:
*grumbles* If you'd just do things nationally like a real country * 
Hahaha!
We are a bit of a mess, it is true. Originally we were supposed to be something more like Greek City-States, but evolved into a more federal government.
But all nations have their "issues".
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Post by: Frazzled
utan wrote:When I told my father that I was engaged, he exclaimed, "It's not too late to join the Marines!"
Great advice to anyone contemplating marriage (straight or otherwise).
It's easier to be in the military during wartime than to be married! 
Safer too...
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Post by: sebster
Frazzled wrote:Sure it can Killkrazy, and I say this as the religious part is not recognized in Mexico (or at least wasn’t for a while after the revolution). It was civil with a ceremony being a “frill.”
-The government confers a package of rights-property/contract/visitation. This may be conferred onto any couple that are legally competent.
-Various religions can have reiligous weddings, and have th4e rights to restrict who they will and will not marry. Otherwise the couple can just sya they are hitched, married, partners, stuck with each other.
The rights are conferred via the government. The title is conferred by the people themselves. That’s effectively how it is now , just separating away the concept of marriage to one of partnership.
Except it isn't how it is right now. With prop 8 and similar pieces of legislation gay people can't access the same legal constructs as straight people. That's kind of the point of what people have been arguing.
But remember, goats are not legally competent…
You haven't met the right goat.
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Post by: Frazzled
sebster wrote:Frazzled wrote:Sure it can Killkrazy, and I say this as the religious part is not recognized in Mexico (or at least wasn’t for a while after the revolution). It was civil with a ceremony being a “frill.”
-The government confers a package of rights-property/contract/visitation. This may be conferred onto any couple that are legally competent.
-Various religions can have reiligous weddings, and have th4e rights to restrict who they will and will not marry. Otherwise the couple can just sya they are hitched, married, partners, stuck with each other.
The rights are conferred via the government. The title is conferred by the people themselves. That’s effectively how it is now , just separating away the concept of marriage to one of partnership.
Except it isn't how it is right now. With prop 8 and similar pieces of legislation gay people can't access the same legal constructs as straight people. That's kind of the point of what people have been arguing.
1. Thats my point about what Gov should be instructed by the people to do. I'm not arguing otherwise Sebster baby. Reminder-don't misperceive where I actually stand on this topic.
2. Again reference that glorious constitution discussion, which was used to strike down racial laws in the past (this was a term for them but I'm not going to research those horrors).
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Post by: dogma
Frazzled wrote:
Incorrect and a total subversion of the intent, which was to protect religion and the free exercise thereof, NOT protect the government or separate it from religion.
Protecting religion from the government is the same protecting the government from religion. After all, as soon as the state writes into law anything based upon a religious justification it has necessarily discriminated against any and all similar justification which have been, or will be, denied.
As for intent: Are you familiar with Jefferson's letter in which he used the line 'a wall of separation between church and state"? Not that I'm arguing the intent specifically, as it is completely irrelevant to any and all discussion of the law's application, but to say that any Constitutional clause has a clear intent at all is simple foolish.
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Post by: Frazzled
dogma wrote:
Protecting religion from the government is the same protecting the government from religion.
No its not. The difference is basic.
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Post by: dogma
Frazzled wrote:dogma wrote:
Protecting religion from the government is the same protecting the government from religion.
No its not. The difference is basic.
Then why can't you substantiate it without simply rejecting my assertion?
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Post by: Frazzled
Because: 1) its a straightforward view-ie it would have said that; 2) juggling multiple arguments; 3) eating; 4) that whole work thing rearing its ugle head occasionally.
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Post by: dogma
Frazzled wrote:Because: 1) its a straightforward view-ie it would have said that.
See, here's the issue. As soon as religion is utilized as a justification for the creation of a law it becomes a part of the state, and thereby necessarily discriminatory against all other religions. Both corrupting the state, and its ability to remain neutral with respect to any other faith.
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Post by: sebster
Frazzled wrote:1. Thats my point about what Gov should be instructed by the people to do. I'm not arguing otherwise Sebster baby. Reminder-don't misperceive where I actually stand on this topic.
2. Again reference that glorious constitution discussion, which was used to strike down racial laws in the past (this was a term for them but I'm not going to research those horrors).
So you're in favour of prop-8 because they protect a word, 'marriage', and figure things like homosexual rights will sort themselves out down the line?
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Post by: Frazzled
NO. As I pointed out far back. The Constitution already has provisions in it. Amendments assure equal treatment, and thats what will be used to strike the law. Ga you people like to argue.
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Post by: malfred
Frazzled wrote:you people like to argue.
No we don't.
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Post by: sebster
Frazzled wrote:NO. As I pointed out far back. The Constitution already has provisions in it. Amendments assure equal treatment, and thats what will be used to strike the law. Ga you people like to argue.
No, just your poistion is incoherent.
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Post by: Frazzled
sebster wrote:Frazzled wrote:NO. As I pointed out far back. The Constitution already has provisions in it. Amendments assure equal treatment, and thats what will be used to strike the law. Ga you people like to argue.
No, just your poistion is incoherent.
At least I use proper spelling when insulting someone.
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Post by: sebster
That's where we're at? Spelling. Way to set the high bar Fraz.
And I didn't insult you, I said your position was incoherent.
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