Converted up a slew of jetbike warlocks/farseers over the past couple months and have been testing variants, this is what I've settled on for now, but wanted to see what the dakka dakka folks thought of it. IMO, it has good anti-horde and good anti-tank, along with some heavy hitters and some good scoring units.

Built for 1850 and 1750, see below

No Avatar, No Eldrad, No Heavy Support, No Elites, still heavy handed.

1850

HQ: 1045

Jet Council 1: 530
1 Farseer: Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune, Runes of Warding, Jetbike -> 175
7 Warlocks: 2 x Enhance, 2 x Embolden Jetbikes ->355

Jet Council 1: 515
1 Farseer: Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune, Jetbike -> 160
7 Warlocks: 2 x Enhance, 2 x Embolden, Jetbikes ->355

TROOPS: 795

10 x Dire Avengers 1: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 2: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 3: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

Total: 1840

1750

HQ: 955

Jet Council 1: 485
1 Farseer: Fortune, Runes of Warding, Jetbike -> 130
7 Warlocks: 2 x Enhance, 2 x Embolden Jetbikes ->355

Jet Council 1: 470
1 Farseer: Fortune, Jetbike -> 115
7 Warlocks: 2 x Enhance, 2 x Embolden, Jetbikes ->355

TROOPS: 795

10 x Dire Avengers 1: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 2: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 3: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

Total: 1750


Simple and efficient

Jet councils stay fortuned and go after the opponent at relatively full tilt, dooming the units that the dire avengers will be firing upon. 2x Embolden/Enhance means I'll be able to keep those on the squad

Dire avengers are there for anti-horde and more importantly staying alive to take objectives.

Brightlances on the serpents should provide some decent AT at range, before the Jet councils get in and slap enemy vehicles in combat

Whole army is very mobile, nothing will need to sit around or get babysat by other units, so I can avoid board edges, snikrot from behind, outflankers from the sides, etc, and the whole army is relatively resilient versus deepstrikers (in tanks or fortuned with a 3+ rerollable armor or a 4+ rerollable invulnerable)

Lets hear the comments, from rave reviews to brutal flames!

Edit: Fixed a typo
Edit: Added specific 1750 and 1850 builds

I like it but I always liked jetbike councils.

Put Runes of Warding on one of the Farseer for Psychic Power defense. Drop the Destructors. They aren't much good if your not running 2-3+

Consider Mindwar on one of the farseers for killing Painboys, power fist sarges and heavy weapons troopers.

Also make the list for 1750 since most GTs and RTTs are 1750.

3 troop choises that arent that resiliant should put some more troops to take and hold objectives

Why drop the distructors? In this cover save heavy environment denying cover saves is good, so I heard.

You not fan of jetbike squads? They have mobile fire and can get 3+ inv.

Reason for dropping destructors:

-Points, in order to be effective you need 2-3 in a squad I'm thinking, and I can't fit that in with 2 councils at 1750.

-Now that I re-read the rules, and realized you can indeed take invulnerable saves against failed dangerous terrain tests, I don't fear moving through cover. I had them before as an option to assaulting an enemy in cover, however if I only take 1/6 wounds and get a 4+ rerollable against it, Im willing to do it. The only remaining bad thing is no grenades means the council goes second.

-Generally they're used to soften targets to charge, however, not much survives a charge from the council regardless of softening or not softening. (With the exception of terminators, tons of marines, or other units with really good saves and a lot of wounds, however, destructors won't fix this either).

Jetbike Squads:

I tried them since fifth came out up until 2-3 weeks ago when I decided they just won't work.

They have mobile fire, yes, but their range is 12 inches (unless you want to limit yourself to bs 3 3 shot guns) and once caught in combat, they're goners. Not to mention you pay 22 points for a fast marine with a crappy stat line and ld 8.

It doesn't take much to shoot down a squad, and most shops and tournaments (everyone I've been to) have few if any pieces of true "LOS blocking" terrain. Because of this, you're always getting shot.

Also, you can't get a 3+ invulnerable with jetbikes, that was last edition, this edition you get a 3+ cover save for turboboosting (which cant be done over obstacles, models, cover, etc.) and won't help you if they get locked in combat (no cover saves in combat).

I love jetbikes, I own 30-40 of the buggers, but after tons of playtesting I just can't field them. My waveserpents + Dire avengers have given me much more bang for my buck I've found.

I do not see doom on any of your farseers.

Then read better. The first list for the 1850 both farseers have "doom" written in their list of upgrades

In 1750 I cant fit it.

I'm doing same army, as you know. I'm now considering x2 councils. Makes sense to double the threats. As one big council could get bogged down for many turns of combat.

Nice list. I might have to try this out on Vassal after finals.

I been testing a one council list with 3 fire prisms a little bit but haven't had much time to test it.

Try and fit in 2 destructors into the council that would rock for burninating units in cover.

Jetbikes can get cannon upgrade. Pop around terrain and shoot with 24" weapon.

You are running Avengers without Exarch? That can't be good. No bladestorm or defender.

You and I both are seeing it's tough to make army when 2 HQ's suck up so many points.

Wave Serpents are not that resilient versus shooting or assaults... Seems like you are putting all your eggs in one basket so to speak. Why not drop one seer council so you can take some other units to make your army more versatile?

G

Do the 'locks get a str 9 vs vehicles? (i dont play with eldar but have plaed against this very army quite a bit) If not then mech armies will be very hard. You are relying far too much on the wave serpents not dying (which wont happen a lot). They are both your transports and LR anti-tank.


Orks ( which there seem to be a lot) would maybe kill it in both the horde and nob biker varieties... Unless you are extremely lucky with your bladestorm... remember, nob bikers essentially get 4/4 to shooting just like you. Also, any self respecting orky will charge claws into b2b with your seer and insta pop him.

To be honest, I think dual queer councils is overkill and too many points to take on all-comers. Try playing a marine army with a librarian, or even the special libby that makes you re-reoll invuln AND has a psychic hood or even an anti-psychic nid army

I dont usually play at this range (1500 in UKGT) so it may be a little off.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Jetbikes can get cannon upgrade. Pop around terrain and shoot with 24" weapon.

You are running Avengers without Exarch? That can't be good. No bladestorm or defender.

You and I both are seeing it's tough to make army when 2 HQ's suck up so many points.

-Jetbikes do get the cannon upgrade, which on average will cause 1 wound that won't instakill and won't ignore saves. If you use them like this, you're paying for 76-200 points to have 1-3 wounds per turn at 24 inches. Its a horrible points sink.
-Jetbikes can "pop around cover", but not as they did in fourth edition. In this edition, you'll "pop around cover" and then pop back. And then your opponent will simply shoot you through said cover since it doesnt block LOS anymore. Pop attacks do. not. work.

-Avengers are better without an exarch and the powers.

Here's why:
My build: 120 points, I get 10 scoring troops, and 20 BS4 shots per turn, a 4+ save, and LD 9
Your build: 167 Points, You get 10 scoring troops, 20 BS4 shots per turn or 32 shots (exarch with avenger cats') if you sacrifice 20 shots in the coming shooting phase, a 4+ save, and LD 9. Enemies lose 1 attack when charging.

So you've increasing the units cost by almost 40% and in return you get the option to fire 32 shots instead of 20 and then shoot 0 the next turn. You also get your enemies to have 1 less attack in the coming close combat phase, however Dire avengers are weak enough that they will NEVER win an assault regardless of the upgrades you buy, unless you're fighting guardsmen or tau, and in that case, you don't need defend to win anyhow. If you're in combat, you've already lost, regardless.

I'm not really having trouble with this army to be honest, the HQ's suck up points, but I made that choice based on their utility. I've tested this versus ork horde and ork dred bash (9 kil kans, ghazzie, 120 ork shoota boyz, snikrot and 14 kommandos, KFF mek, 20 storm boyz) and done just fine. I've also tested and beat the Nidzilla build (both gaunt horde with 5 dakka fexes and 2 dakka tyrants with guard, and swapping gaunt horde for scutting stealers).

I've yet to test on the CSM Oblit/Lash/PM build, but will be in the coming weeks.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Wave Serpents are not that resilient versus shooting or assaults... Seems like you are putting all your eggs in one basket so to speak. Why not drop one seer council so you can take some other units to make your army more versatile?

G

Wave serpents are semi resilient vs shooting and assaults, but yes, not that resilient. To take a look at your post though, you have 4 rhinos at AV 11 getting hit by str 9 lascannons. My serpents only take Str 8 hits from lascannons and are AV 12, this is just to give you a relateable comparison to your own experience vs lascannons.

Wave serpents when I play typically hang back lurking and moving 12 inches (hopefully trying to utilize cover for 4+ saves, but that doesn't always work). They fire the BL from this range and wait until later game (or when needed) to move up and capture objectives/fire on targets to minimize what they take back. Being able to move 24 inches makes me able to move away from assaults (I will never get assaulted since I have a 24 inch move unless I let myself due to needing to deploy them or charge block with them).

If I'm playing an army with a lot of shooting, I keep them in reserve and let the councils go to town, they can't survive (at least I don't think they will) 9 obliterators for more than 2 turns.

As far as dropping the council, I've played a single council build for a while as well and just found it ineffective. My opponent had too easy of a time throwing bait units and tar pit units into them (or forcing me to charge them) and then I had a council chewing on the wrong unit all game. The second council lets me have two points of threat (you won't find most people have more than 1-2 throw away units) with 2 councils, even if he can force them into my way, I can get through them in 1-2 turns and be into the squishy bits of his army.

Also, if I get tarpitted I can use the second council to go around and complete what I needed to complete and/or save the first council by adding in more attacks (24 WS5, I5, 2+ to wound).

WingWong wrote:Do the 'locks get a str 9 vs vehicles? (i dont play with eldar but have plaed against this very army quite a bit) If not then mech armies will be very hard. You are relying far too much on the wave serpents not dying (which wont happen a lot). They are both your transports and LR anti-tank.


Orks ( which there seem to be a lot) would maybe kill it in both the horde and nob biker varieties... Unless you are extremely lucky with your bladestorm... remember, nob bikers essentially get 4/4 to shooting just like you. Also, any self respecting orky will charge claws into b2b with your seer and insta pop him.

To be honest, I think dual queer councils is overkill and too many points to take on all-comers. Try playing a marine army with a librarian, or even the special libby that makes you re-reoll invuln AND has a psychic hood or even an anti-psychic nid army

I dont usually play at this range (1500 in UKGT) so it may be a little off.

Warlocks and farseers have base 2 attacks (1, plus 1 for 2 CCW's) and they always wound on a 2+ versus models with a toughness, and against targets with an armor value they are indeed, str 9. On the charge I hit vehicles with 24 str 9 attacks on rear armor. Its enough to shred any monolith or land raider on the charge, not to mention softer vehicles.

Waveserpents are given brightlances to pick at hard targets and provide a use for themselves while they lurk protecting my scorers.

Orks are an issue for everyone, but so far I've been winning versus dredbash/horde orks, however I've yet to find someone who can play the nob biker build, but am looking into getting a friend to proxy it.

Seer councils get a 3+/3+ to shooting keep in mind, unless its a weapon that ignores saves (lascannons, etc) in that case we get 4+/4+. Theres a big difference between those though, its the difference of 1/9 dying and 1/4 dying. And although nobs get this, keep in mind brightlances ignore the FNP and instakill, so they'll only get 4+ cover saves before (hopefully) biting it.

In charges the farseer stays out of BTB, if he gets into BTB it is trouble (powerfists, etc) however he does still get a 4+/4+, so he isnt too too easy to squish. But yea, that is an issue.

Keep in mind nob bikers in combat though will only get a 6+ save typically (not many folks put eavy armor or cybork on them) and then a 4+ FNP, whereas I get the 3+ reroll or 4+ reroll, making me far more resilient.


My testing has led me into dual seer council and I've not yet turned back, I've busted through BT armies, guard armies, and most of the top lists so far without too much problem, and it works well as a take all comer I'm finding.

However, for every omfgzorzunstoppabledestruction army, there's a counter as you noted. Hoods are my worst nightmare, the new marine hood is relatively easy to avoid at least in order to keep my fortune for the turn I charge in, after that there is a 50% chance I lose fortune, and things just go ugly. The new marine reroll passed invulnerable saves is a bit odd, and I'm not sure how it works, however in order to cast it he'll probably take a perils of the warp due to my runes of warding (roll on 3d6 and add them all together for the test).

Think of the SM power:

Fortune: You may reroll any failed saves
Null Zone: Any successful invulnerable saves within 24 inches during the SM players turn must be rerolled.
Rulebook: You may never reroll a reroll.

IMO, if fortune is up, null zone won't work as you can't ever reroll a reroll. Either that or I would take saves, reroll the passes, then take all of the fails and reroll those with fortune (ie, save, null zone, fortune).

Even so, Null zone only works during the SM players turn, reducing its effectiveness a bit (although its still gross). You can bet in this scenario I'll be tossing everything into that librarian ASAP.

-- 16 council members charge a librarian and 10 marines --

48 attacks, 32 hits, 26 wounds (rounding down), 8-9 dead marines, or since he's an IC, at least ONE dead librarian, who cares about the rest of the marines. Even one council should be able to do enough to kill the librarian (forcing ~10-13 saves on him).


Thanks for the great comments/critiques folks, I aprecciate feedback on the list (naysayers and supporters, mostly naysayers it seems ) as I rarely get this much feedback on DakkaDakka anymore (now that the infamous stelek is absent, which btw, where is he?)

2 things...

Mr. Eldar... First guide the shuriken cannons on the jetbikes. : )

"Wave serpents are semi resilient vs shooting and assaults, but yes, not that resilient. To take a look at your post though, you have 4 rhinos at AV 11 getting hit by str 9 lascannons. My serpents only take Str 8 hits from lascannons and are AV 12, this is just to give you a relateable comparison to your own experience vs lascannons. "

My rhinos serve two purposes ->

- Create bunkers after they are wrecked... opponent must roll a 6 to take it off the table... if you have enough rhinos you can establish a good shield wall

- Reach the objectives... remember I have OCE for BA which is a big advantage

G

Against non-fleeting opponents I think going without the exarch is fine. You will have round 2 to fire. If your opponent can move and charge for a total of 18"...fleeters, jump infantry, beasts, cavalry... then you need the exarch.

I guess it's just a question of who you think you'll be facing.

ender502

Green Blow Fly wrote:2 things...

Mr. Eldar... First guide the shuriken cannons on the jetbikes. : )

G

Guiding will roughly double your hits, and will cost you 45 extra points on your farseer, and for you to keep a non combat scoring squad within 6 inches of a front line combat squad in order to have range for guide (guide is within 6 inches).

And still, you'll go from 1-3 to 2-6 wounds depending on 3 jetbikes with 1 cannon to 9 jetbikes with 3

And then keep in mind, you're using a 180 point or more farseer to achieve 1-3 more wounds that don't ignore saves or instakill.

Bad deal in my book.

Did I forget to mention Doom? It's great for those annoying pests in power armor.



G

The only issue with doom is that it means your farseer has to spend an extra 45-50 points (keep in mind, an extra power means purchasing stones and the power)

Doom does have great synergy with the dire avengers, however at 1750 I just can't fit it or justify it as as important as the other choices within the list. MY 1850 build incudes doom/stones for both seers as the 100 point boost.

Doom is really (imo) the best second power in the book just given its range and the fact that since it isn't a shooting power and doesn't require LOS you can keep your opponent guessing and force him to make hard choices about what that unit he just was about to charge in with, that is now doomed, is going to do. Also, it doesn't tie up your farseer squad at all in having to stay close to your squads to cast it on (ala guide) or to cast it on the same target he charges (eldritch storm, mind war).

However, mind war is a good second choice for sniping out models that are going to provide issues in combat. Painboy nob biker anyone? LD 7 versus LD 10 means you'll usually kill him if you mind war him.


Edit: BTW, I just now realized what OCE stands for, is that an extra d6? Pretty nice for blood angels. The best build I can see for blood angels, imo, is a gun heavy (long range, hard hitting weapons) with a free awesome DC as a bonus.

Vanilla Space Marines is a much better codex to build a power armor gun line.

G

PS(If you drop the second council you will have the points needed)

Well yea, if I drop a 600 point unit I'll have the points for a 45 point upgrade, but then I lose all the benefits discussed above of having two councils instead of one.

Don't think having doom on one guy is worth losing an entire council

Think outside the box grass hopper.

G

I like it. I run something very similar. Some thoughts:

I know people like the twin linked bright lances on waveserpents, but I really never kill much with them. On average is takes something like 10-12 shot to statistically kill one landraider.

I honestly never have the chance to take nearly that many shots. I'm usually using the wave serpents at transports and keeping my speed over 12". Other wise I'm moving less and usually shooting through terrain.

Also, I generally don't buy multiple enhances for my warlock jetbike squads. Ultimately, I'm trying to keep them out of hth. They live longer if you do. I use them to harass and whittle down units.

They are not hammer units. you shoot with them at 12" then bounce back to 18". With that in mind I usually run a farseer with mind war.

I also toss in some spears, especially on the farseer. His single attack will not be missed, but a hitting on a 2+ S9 weapon is great.

If you want to put them in hth why would you not just run a foot based squad in a waveserpent with Eldrad? They are cheaper, harder hitting, and more resilient.

Anyway, I say strip the brightlances, lose the extra enhance, change a doom for a mind war, add singing spears to the farseers and knock your dire avengers down a couple guys.

And field a big squad of fire dragons in a waveserpent.

Also I would consider only one jetbike based council, toss the second council in a waveserpent.

They really have 2 very different rolls. you will find the jetbike squad is great for harrassing and contesting a late game objective, while the foot base used is solid in hth and is a great place to put a bunch of destructors.

Pete

Green Blow Fly:

Dropping an entire unit that makes the army different than your standard single council list just so doom appears in the army isn't thinking outside the box

Pete:


Jetbike councils are most certainly not for harassing enemy units. No one should be spending 500+ points for a unit just designed to "harass". If my opponent "harassed" me with a 500 point monster of a unit wasting it on shooting 8 TL shuriken catapults every turn or chucking single shot spears, I'd be the happiest camper ever.

How is 24 WS 5 I5 2+ to wound attacks not a hammer?

Jetbike councils are the place to put destructors, as they can move fast and bring them to bear. Destructors are horrible in foot squads, unless you plan on dumping them as a flamer squad out of a transport, in this case, just take a min unit of storm guardians with 2 flamers and a destructor warlock

Multiple enhances are necessary for the new wound allocation rules, providing you care to keep enhance up.


The foot based squad:

1) Sucks up both HQ's
2) Costs more (210 for eldrad, 155 for yriel, 250 for 10 warlocks, 50 ish for powers (without destructor) and 145 for a serpent is: 810 points) You get one unit for almost the price of my two which are faster, have better toughness, better basic guns, get a 3+ save. In fact the only bonus to the foot squad is that you get power attacks from yriel.
3) Eldrad can't fleet so he slows the unit down tremendously
4) Easy to just tie it up and move away form it, letting it waste time hoofing it or waste time remounting and redeploying
5) Has T3, not 4, and has no 3+ save. Things like psycannons eat these for breakfast.

If you run one jetbike council and one waveserpent council, you end up losing the entire advantage of the serpent council, which is to include power attacks through yriel or a phoenix lord.

Brightlances im not totally sold on, but they're there mostly so that if I face a tank, Im not required to charge in my council in order to take it out.

Fire dragons are a free KP, expensive, and aren't scoring. Eldar need to build their AT into their other units, as paying for a fire dragon suicide squad (it always ends up being one and you know it) is roughly 250 with transport, is 2 free kp, and doesn't score.

The first step is the hardest of any journey.

G

I'm always swapping Bladestorm on and off... I think it's definitely worth having on one unit, at least. For the Storm/Embark/Storm tactic... well, obviously that's how it works. But if they DON'T need to re-embark, they can always NOT bladestorm, and do it the following turn, before jetting off after an objective.

I thought about using Defend at a recent local tournament, but I'm glad I didn't. Only got the into combat once, and that was me charging Guardsmen with two DA squads and a Farseer.

I'm yet to properly test Jetcouncil... need to finish conversions...

Green Blow Fly wrote:The first step is the hardest of any journey.

G

Say something useful or don't clutter the thread.

Artik:

Im just not sold on bladestorm, I used to swear by it, then I tried it on a single unit, and my opponent just always downed them first when able, so it never had much effect besides spending more of my points.

Jetcouncil is fun to play, but the conversions are a bit...time consuming, GL with yours, Im almost done with mine, did you hack your riders in half or do something different?

I am trying to help you to open your mind to new possibilities with the eldar.

G

played this VS a CC heavy Black templar list with 3 or so big 20 man squads and grim or a chaplin w/ those servitors that make them run further(or 2 chaps)???

basicaly, 18 models at 2 attacks each, a 1 attack melta gun, and a powerfist.... + shots on the way in. if you slam into one squad, it is very likely that another will slam into you in the next turn.

i think you would struggle vs a horde BT list.

You played my exact list or just a dual council more or less against a BT army?

My biggest struggle so far was against a horde BT list actually, as preferred enemy is just disgusting IMO

My semi solution was just to whittle them down before I charge (easier said than done) with lots of DA fire just causing as many wounds as possible before combat was necessary.

But yea, horde CC armies that rock 3+ saves are pretty painful for my army with the lack of power weapons, but through sheer weight of wounds can win.

I've run both types in a ton of games and tourneys. I usually one of 3 types of councils.

- Farseer, fortune, runes of witness, 5 warlocks with destructors in a falcon, stones, holofield (sometimes I take doom and stones)

- Eldrad, Yriel, 8 warlocks, 2 enhance, 2 embolden in a waveserpent

- Farseer fortune, wind war, stones, runes of warding, spear, 5 or 6 warlocks on bikes, 2 embolden, 1 enhance, 2 or 3 spears

So I hear you that 4 WS 5 I5 2+ to wound attacks shoudl be a hammer unit, but farseers die in hth unless they are Eldrad. So you really can;t last more than maybe 2 full turns of combat if the squad has a powerfist. The seer will get swatted, and the unit explodes. It's just not a win scenerio against a lot of much cheaper units.

This doesn't mean it's a bad unit. They are a big chunk of points that only gives up a single KP, and can contest and objective you want to a couple turns. It's a spoiler unit. You use it to whittle away the enemy all game long, and then zoom to an objective in the end game. This is hugely valuable for eldar.

- The Yriel / Eldrad version is the hth option that rolls units in hth.

- The small unit is a flamer bomb. It's cheap and amazingly versatile. 5 re rolling to wound heavy flamers will basically erase 30 orks or 10 marines of your choice, and they are resilient enough to do it multiple times. I've begun to like this unit the best, as it solves problems like stern guard, or mobs in terrain, and can still tar pit until the farseer dies.

Pete

Preferred Enemy is a killer, I have to say. It's important to remember that the Neophytes do not benefit from this special rule, only the Initiates. So you're only dealing with half the squad rerolling to hit. So you'll mostly see this sorta thing on a counter-charge:
10 initiates, 8 CCW/pistol, 1 melta 1 PF (26 attacks on the charge +2 PF attacks)
10 neophytes, CCW/pistol (30 attacks on the charge)

Initiates: 26 attacks, 19.5 hits, 9.75 wounds 1.083 dead warlocks
PF Initiate: 2 attacks, 1.5 hits, 0.3125 dead
Neophytes: 30 attacks, 0.8333 dead

total? 2.23 dead warlocks, not exactly crippling, but yeah it sucks the big one. Although, compare this to a seer council charge (assuming 10 witchblade locks +farseer) will kill 6.1 initiates (or 9.2 neophytes, more likely wound allocation), at I5.


Now, I know you don't run them, but consider what a pair of fire prisms will do to one of these 20-man squads caught out of cover (no one's gonna be able to hide 3 20-man CC marine squads, nor do they usually try.) S7 AP3 large blast that's TL BS4. They go bye bye.

Remember that prisms are not as resilient as 4e so against a shooty army they are KPs on a silver platter.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Remember that prisms are not as resilient as 4e so against a shooty army they are KPs on a silver platter.

G

Obviously you utilize their 60" range. Just throwing them (FP's) in front of a gun line is just asking them (opponent) to shoot the piss out of it.

Alot of quality discussion here.

what is the range on the dire avengers?? i dont play eldar so IDK.

if its 24 whittling them down will be a chore but doable.

if its 18 your in trouble.

if its 12 your in for an uphill battle.


the guy i play vs most often tends to deploy all 3 squads streched accros the board. so if you hit one squad with a pie plate, you hit all 3. because he is fearless, he runs toward you at D6 +3 inches (for the chaps servitors)

i play tau, so ya. in 5th, i lose most of my battles vs him. soft, squishy, really should be BS 4 troops FTW

o well... i am starting sisters now (got a few models allready, getting a load more off of dakkas swap shop).

lets see how his 20 man squads like 5 heavy bolters with AP 1 on a wound roll of 6, and 2 excorsits

I have noticed that the better eldar players I know don't use Prisms. They have the synergy but it is a double edged sword... Once one is gone the other is no longer a real threat to most any threat. I would rather use one Falcon since it can shoot a lot and is a transport as well. The combined arms approach is the better way to build an eldar list in 5e. You can take a good number of units such that losing some of them does not detriment the strength of the remainder.

Honestly if two seer councils mounted were that good I think we would be seeing a lot more of these lists. It's not like it has not already been tested.

G

Maybe will be seeing a lot of these lists, it's sure working well for me against the top lists, and honestly, I hope I am the only one that keeps with it,

Dire avengers shoot 18 inches: you shoot, depending on how far they close in, you remount and fly away, or you charge block/tank shock with the serpent they road in on

First, fire prisms are ok, but bad for a number of reasons:

1) Free kp, as GBF said
2) 60 inch range is all well and good, but boards are only 48 wide. If your opponent deploys his lascannons more than a couple inches in, he can reach most anywhere. Including your prisms.
3) They scatter and suffer from the same big gun syndrome that leman russes do

IMO, its best to run them naked and just take your very cheap nice tank and just hope you can play cagey enough to keep it alive, that being said, I still don't run mine anymore

Falcons are a far worse choice for a number of reasons:

1) Its an armor 12 tank that costs nearly as much as a land raider
2) Its no longer hard to hit in combat
3) It no longer downgrades all hits to glances
4) If it wants to stay "safe" (meaning getting a fickle 4+ save) it can shoot 0 guns.
5) If it wants to move more than 6 inches, it can shoot 1 gun. Yet you have to purchase the others anyways.
6) If it moves less than 6 inches and fires, its still a BS 3 tank that is ignoring its transport capacity, and you'll do more damage with a cheaper prism.

GBF I'm not quite sure you're qualified to say what the best way to build eldar is, as you play BA, not eldar.

Your aft named "combined arms approach" is basically saying to play multiple small units, ie, independently functioning units that don't require support and lots of them. I don't know of anything in the eldar codex that satisfies those conditions, as every unit has a great strength, and a great weakness, its the whole eldar theme. MSU doesn't work with KP anymore, and eldar especially are bad at MSU, as our units are easy enough to kill to begin with and are too expensive to pull this off as well.

Eldar armies are based on synergy and specialization, if you lose a unit or two in an eldar army, it heavily detriments the rest of the eldar army, thats the way it is.

Also, as you've never played against dual council, and I haven't read anyone else making this list, I'd say it hasn't been well tested.

The reason you don't see the plethora of seer council armies is for a number of reasons:

1) Its not as good as NOB BIKER, yet has a lot of the same ideas

2) There are no models for it

3) The conversions are fairly difficult and time consuming, not to mention expensive

4) Eldar have and always have had a stigma to most players of being some combination of the insults: gay, homos, flaming, girls, pansies, etc. Many players won't play them simply because of this. I believe in your other thread wingwong called this type of list a "queercouncil". Its pathetic, but gamers tend to act like pseudo-macho douches for some reason.

Eldar are no longer stigmatized by the holo falcon so if you can win consistently with this army good gamers will respect you.

Are you sure the Falcon is BS3? I trust you if you say so. : )

Have you considered the strength of war walkers in 5e? They can always be held in reserve and have out flank. Combine this with guide and/or doom and you have a strong unit when they arrive.

While I strictly play power armor only I do face all the other armies so I have a particular perspective or insight so you might say as to what works well against Marines. For instance I feel certain you must field three strong troop choices to be able to win objective based missions. Here is an edge for eldar since they can field pathfinders, dire avengers and guardians mounted on jet bikes. The jet bikes are really fast and can almost always avoid assaults. The pathfinders are good at sitting in an objective and shooting. The dire avengers are expendable and have the ability to shoot very well with blade storm plus guide and/or doom. These types of combinations are what I am talking about when I mention synergy and a combined arms approach.

People are all hyped about the new jargon alpha strike but the DoW deployment takes away from this concept. Some people say that if you can dominate two of the three following categories you will win - movement/shooting/assault. I disagree as holding objectives is now another category to be added to these three. Who can dominate in three of four categories... that is what we what we should design our armies to do.

G

Eldar were stigmatized LONG before the Holo-falcon nonsense, they've been stigmatized since their release due to their likeness to elves. Good gamers will respect you, but theirs still a large amount of stigma in the community to playing eldar, and many people avoid the army for that reason. I've played eldar for 10 years. It's always been like this.

Also shown by how that stigma was alive and running a couple hours ago when someone called it a queercouncil. I live with, I don't care much, its obnoxious, but c'est la vie.

The only added stigma of the holo falcon was that eldar were just easy mode and took no skill to play (the same stigma that orks get, and nidzilla has gotten for its BS).

Falcon is BS3, the only vehicle the eldar have thats BS4 is the fire prism

Walkers are suck. Sure you can hold them in reserve, but they're expensive and extremely fragile, and if they stay in reserve you lose shooting for several turns. If they outflank they're coming on from the sides close to the enemy and get assaulted, just about the worst scenario for them. The best (and only imo) way to field these is if you max them at 9 walkers with high rate of fire guns (scatter lasers, shuriken cannons) and play gunline eldar.

Dire avengers, believe it or not, are the most resilient eldar troop. 4+ save, good leadership, and a fairly resilient transport. Wraithguard are more resilient, but come in at 396 points, so aren't really much of an option.

Rangers (or pathfinders) are worse than DA's in assault (which is saying something) and one flamer template ends the entire unit.

You're viewing the eldar from the outside looking in, you need to play them to get a real perspective. Whenever you make an eldar list with psychic powers involved, you know right off what they'll be used for. My farseers will be out in front, in the thick of it, they'll fortune for their own unit every turn. As such, I can't factor in guide, a power for enhanced shooting with a 6 inch range, into any of the rest of my army. Etc, etc. Powers are limited, not everyone will get the benefit of them.

You can't factor in Doom/Guide in every units effectiveness. They're expensive powers coming off an expensive HQ choice. Every unit is great when you add these in, but you need to "think outside the box" when it comes to units utility and just plugging guide or doom into the equation.

Jet bikes have trouble avoiding assault against even fleeting opponents if they want to be effective, with a 12 inch range and a 6 inch assault move. Keep in mind, 10 jetbikes is 220 points. However, they're LD 8 marines.

How well would one of your power armor units of 3-9 marines stand up to of focused fire, keeping in mind thats all jetbikes are, fast marines that fold in combat and have ld 8 and don't benefit from ATKNF. Doesn't take long to wittle down a squad of jetbikes.

They also can't stand up whatsoever to drop pod or deepstrike armies such as space marines or daemons. Obliterators and lash princes and plague marines will all shrug off their fire and drop them with shooting in short order.

Dakkafexes shred jetbikes putting out 2 dead jetbikes at least per fex just due to the number of wounds.

Orks with waagh or bikes or battlewagons will get them into combat and be relatively unphased by their low amount of firepower. Even if not a mob of shoota boys will drop a jetbike squad with 18 inch range.


As a last point, before I think I just let this thread die, your belief that eldars greatest strength is their troops, is actually their greatest weakness.

Eldars troops are the biggest problem with the transition to fifth edition. They are the weakest troops in game. They're high cost, low number, low toughness, and short ranged. Our longest range troop squad is 18 inches, every other choice fires at 12 inches. Compound this with the fact that our troops are almost as bad as tau in combat, and you don't have a pretty picture. Add into this that our troops are unable to fulfill other roles effectively (combat, tank hunting, etc) and its hard to build a last that can handle other lists, and also provide enough scoring options, as our troops are pretty lacking.

Im not saying eldar aren't playable, or that they're not still a viable army. I'm obviously a die hard and will be for quite some time. But the equation isn't as simple as you make it out to be, primarily because you don't know well enough how eldar function.

Pathfinders and dire avengers have range greater than 12".

G

Please don't moan about how bad eldar are: It was noted at last year's GT across lots of countries that Eldar and Orks are performing "particularly well this year". In the heat I went to in UK, 13 Eldar out of 15 qualified and roughly the same with orks... That's in a total of 45!! You guys have a very good codex with lots and lots of options and possible good builds... You actually have some choice rather than the current cookie cutter of most codexes.

War walkers are bad? Ummmmmmm... Right

If your rangers are in combat then, to quote Point Break, "you're just not doing it right!"

And you talk about getting jetbikes rapid fired from a unit of marines? Please see the above Keanu related comment.

You cannot quote constantly the "rock" to your "scissors" as that's just pointless... Fexes eat lots of armies, Marines can be a pain, Etc Etc... All of these things can be combatted with good tactics.

The "Queer Council" comment was by me...

I have no problem with Eldar, I have an Eldar army waited to be painted... I do, however, have a problem with the mounted council.

Like lash, the price of basic orks and nob bikers, it seems like something that just hasn't had the necessary testing. If you look at top table tournament builds and 90% of them have the exact same unit in then something is, IMO, wrong...

I ran dual Lash/oblit spam last GT so I'm not pointing at people here; I just think it is an overpowered unit that hasn't really had enough testing to fit into line with the other armies... Doubley so when you consider the importance of seizing/contesting objectives in this edition.

Saying that, I have a unit of 8 planned for my eldar army as they are that good and I'm lame. I still think 2 is too much at this point range.

And, personally, I think both prisms and falcons are struggling to justify their points anymore; there are much better things to spend points on nowadays IMO and I would fear different builds slightly more. (although, saying that, FPs can be a pain in the ass at times)

War walkers are good for sure.

G

Imo there is no such thing as a top-allcomers build for Eldar at the moment. The discussed list is pretty good.

How do you deal with first turn? Starting on the board or not you shouldnt have fortune for a turn when the opponent has first turn.

In general I think pathfinders are not so hot... There great cover save is negated by dropping flamers, sternguard, thundefire, etc... the list goes on as to what can kill them with ease.

I am a bit of a moron I guess and still really like the FP. How will they do against nob bikers?

BTW, as much as I dislike parhfinders... how do you think they'd do versus nob bikers? Can they pin them? If so that's reason enough to include them. Sorry if it's a silly question but I don't have my book handy.

ender502

Its sad when you start wishing for Stelek to be back. A least his snarkiness kept the stupid replies to a minimum and while driving you half mad gave good advice with support as to why he was right.


To Raider and Ender, who actually posted something useful...

Raider: First turn is an issue if you don't win it, and typically I just have to minimize losses first turn and stay away from him, then use speed to get back in the game on turn 2. Typically this results in me losing a warlock or two to his long ranged guns, but not much more.

Ender: You're correct about pathfinders. Its not just a "scissor to their paper" argument. Any aspect of the game that isn't shooting that doesn't remove cover saves, will remove them. They're resilient against 1 out of several possible killers, and are horrible for holding objectives for this reason.

-Not a moron for liking FP, they're arguably one of the best heavies we have now. Against nob bikers, not so well, only the small shot will IK them, they'll still get a cover save, and with the way they spread out you'll never get more than 2 under it, without scatter. However, they're great against horde armies and many others, so their versatility is one of their strengths.

-Pathfinders are no good versus biker nobs, here's why:

10 Path finders -> 7 Hits, 3.5 wounds, (1 of those 3 on average being ap1). He'll get a 4+/4+ against the 2.5 wounds, meaning you'll do ~.5 wounds, and then get a 4+ versus your ap1, so another .5 wounds. On average 10 pathfinders will do 1 wound to a unit of nob bikers, and then force a pin check. However they have LD 10 with the warboss, and a boss pole, so they won't be failing it

Two Councils on jetbikes are tough but once you failed to cast fortune for some reason (psychic hood), the Councils cripple.
I'd take one large Council and add some variety to the army, say two or three Prisms.

Eldar were my first army and I am very glad to see theyare really a topic of discussion. Also, glad to see there are some strong views about how to make eldar work well.

I wonder how the ground pounding lists work against top tier lists in comparison to mechdar? I think Bloater has some points in "opening our minds" (remember total recall?) to ne wpossibilities. I think mechdar is probably a stronger list but not necesarily against the top tier armies.

Just a thought.

ender502

That comment was uncalled for targetawg... you have all the snarkiness needed for this discussion.

G

What can I say, you bring out the worst in me.

I posted this thread for comments on my planned GT list and also opinions on eldar in general that would be based in fact and well supported. That's all I want here. If you're just going to post "this unit roxzorz lol" or "i agree" or "think outside the box", there's no need to post. If my cut and dry attitude towards it offends you, all apologies, but thats the way I feel, and I take offense to people clutterig and derailing the thread I started.


Eldar Ground Pound:

I've tried heavy ground pound lists of eldar, especcially when fifth first came out after seeing the damage the tempest launcher/crack shot did. They do wonderfully against most armies, but as soon as you face a drop army of some sort, or an army like the orks where no amount of shooting can kill it sufficiently in two turns, you struggle to stay alive. Once my opponents learned that my army should chew up any foot element they deployed, they adapted, and the ground pound army was fairly ineffectual. Other armies (imperial mainly) can pull off ground pound due to things like the mystic combo from the DH dex, as eldar have no real answer to deepstrike, imo, ground pound is a heavily flawed build.

That being said, I still find it to be fun, and am trying to figure out a successful way to field it.

Mechdar simply is one of the more resilient builds as it plays to eldars biggest strength: mobility.

Eldar in tha Hood:

Thats my main fear with this list, a hood army and some bad rolling meaning my two units o doom both go without fortune. This is the main consideration I've had for just maxing a council, drop the second, and use the leftover points for 3x fire prism. I'll give it a try this weekend and see how I like it, then post the results here.

I found that the missions requiring to occupy/contest objectives favors MEQ armies.
Imagine a drop podded Space Marine army landing upon the objectives.
Ten Marines are hard to destroy for a shooty Eldar army, especially if the game lasts only for five rounds.
The same holds for Dreads, thanks to the new armor damage table.

Targetawg

I am not offended by any means... but I do find it quite hilarious you think I only play BA. Nowhere have I used any l33t speak in this thread... why did you say that? I do have to say you came across as a p*nk in my recent BA army list thread though.

Anyways I have offered you some good advice. I know you will do what you want... which you should since in the end it is your army.



wustenfeux

I agree with what you have said wholeheartedly. Here are some batreps from three recent games against eldar you might find interesting:



BA vs Eldar Batreps

G

Green Blow Fly: I'd say better than 50% of your posts were merely snappy one liners, which came off more as trolling than anything. You don't like the way people respond to you, try not to be so abrasive.

Two builds I'll be testing this weekend after more discussion with Kirika off DD

1750:

Build 1:

HQ: 955

Jet Council 1: 485
1 Farseer: Fortune, Runes of Warding, Jetbike -> 130
7 Warlocks: 2 x Enhance, 2 x Embolden Jetbikes ->355

Jet Council 1: 470
1 Farseer: Fortune, Jetbike -> 115
7 Warlocks: 2 x Enhance, 2 x Embolden, Jetbikes ->355

TROOPS: 795

10 x Dire Avengers 1: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 2: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 3: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

Total: 1750

Build 2:

HQ: 720

Jet Council 1: 590
1 Farseer: Fortune, Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones, Mind war Jetbike -> 170
8 Warlocks: 2 x Enhance, 2 x Embolden, 2x Destructor, Jetbikes -> 420

Autarch: Jetbike, laser lance, mandiblasters -> 130

TROOPS: 795

10 x Dire Avengers 1: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 2: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 3: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

Heavy Support: 230

2x Fire Prism Grav Tank


Total: 1745

I will be very interested to hear how your lists with prisms fares. Why no upgrades?

G

I like list #2 better against biker nobs. The mond war will hav egreat applications for negating the FNP doc... the autarch will also help witha slew of no save high S attacks... and I am partial to prisms.

Let us know how it goes. While I finish my marine collecting, I am slowly putting together an eldar mech force. More info is good info.

ender502

I think lootas will quickly drop the prizms and remember that cover saves now work against mond war.

G

Have you considered changing one of the DA squads into a tri-flamer Storm Guardian unit? It seems like it would be ideal for its ability to deny cover, especially for units that like to sit back and hold objectives (like SM scouts or Pathfinders). And no one can debate the effectiveness of the flamers on GEQs/Orks!

Flamers instead of DA's:

two reason for me, although I've toyed with the idea:

1) Don't own storm guardians
2) I feel like the DA's are more resilient

However yea, I think they'd be a good alternate choice, arguably better

Prisms:

No upgrades just because points are hard to come by, and I don't think stones will make much of a difference for them since I won't be moving far enough to get the save anyhow, and don't need to keep moving as much since it isn't a transport. But yea, I'm torn on how badly these will bleed KP

Lootas make short work of just about every tank outside of land raiders unfortunatley, I'll just have to hope to avoid them to some extent, but I feel whatever a loota spam hits in my army will die, even the council couldn't stand up to 45 lootas.

Mind war does ignore FNP though, so its a bit better odds to take out a nob biker, on average you'll beat him by 3 points, doing 1.5 wounds, almost killing him, depending on his saves and if you roll high/low. I think its also worth it for the chance to hit farseer popping fists in squads.

I'll let you folks know how it goes (both variants) and start deciding on what to use. Im hoping the autarch will prevent bog down in combat since he has 6 str 6 power weapon attacks on the charge (doing much more damage to nob bikers, plague marines, etc).

"Mind war does ignore FNP though, so its a bit better odds to take out a nob biker, on average you'll beat him by 3 points"

Doesn't the nob has leadership 10 for these attacks if the mob is at full strength?

G

WingWong wrote:
The "Queer Council" comment was by me...

I have no problem with Eldar, I have an Eldar army waited to be painted... I do, however, have a problem with the mounted council.

...and a problem with inappropriate comments



To the OP. You seem to be getting ganged up on... I'm here to say that I'm pretty much with you on all of your eldar specific opinions.

Their troops are hurting a bit. Lots of people like to tell me the secret troop that I should be using. When I'm running foot dire avengers, everyone wants to tell me how much better bikes are. When I'm running bikes, people tell me to use wave serpent dire avengers. When I'm suing those and they aren't working its wraithguard. When I'm using wraithguard, people suggest foot dire avengers or pathfinders.

The real truth is similar to what you've said. No troop in 40k is hard hitting enough to replace elites/hq/heavies. With the exception of things that "become" troops. What smart players tend to do then, is to choose troops that can survive, and focus on damage output on other units. Eldar just have 1 of those survivor units. And its overpriced. Look at the top armies out there. demons - plague bearers, CSM- plague marines, orks - boys...

That painboy will have LD10 until you can knock a couple nobs of their bikes.

You can't win unless you have enough troops to last through the game and there is no getting around that.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:You can't win unless you have enough troops to last through the game and there is no getting around that.

G

And what gets troops through the game? Not getting shot or being able to survive being shot. In the first instance your troops are secondary to your ability to attack. They become mere objective holders. In that case just about everyone is better off than the eldar. In the second instance the eldar are pretty light on choices. Who can survive? The expensive wraithguard? Yep, but at a high cost. Guardians? Not even a choice if survivability is a criteria. Save 5+ for the fail!! The only options are DA and rangers/pathfinders. There are too many dropping flamer templates to justify the cost of pathfinders. The only choice is the supposed "mainstay" of the eldar army...the DA. That being said..... 230 points or so will get you 10 DA and a pretty decent little tank. 3 o fthose puppies shold leave you in good stead.

I forgot what my point was.

feth.

ender502

I think guardian mounted are a great troop choice for the points... uber speedy and mobile. You need a decent squad so that they can last and do some damage. While I would not recommend three of these squads I think one is always a good choice.

G

The way its worded, Mind war is versus the ld 7 of the nob.

Mob rule: The mob may exchange its leadership value for the number of models in the mob.

Mind war: Doesnt target the mob, it targets a specific individual. Both players roll a d6 and add the respective leadership of their model.

This isn't a leadership test, its just using the characteristic on the profile and adding a d6.

Although, I can see this being an issue to be argued at events...

Models use the leadership of the highest in their unit.

G

You're misreading the rule book I'm afraid, here's the quote from the rulebook:

Pg. 8, Big 5th edition book, under the heading:

"Leadership Tests:

Tests made against the leadership characteristic (like morale checks) are different from other tests. In the case of a leadership test, roll 2d6. If the result is equal to or less than the model's leadership, the test is passed.

If a unit includes models with different leadership values, always use the one with the highest ld value"

What you're thinking of is that for leadership tests models use the highest in their unit.

Mind war isn't a leadership test. It just uses their leadership value to add to the roll of a D6. The above quote only applies, as the heading says, to leadership tests.

What exactly does the rules for mond war say?

G

The eldar player may choose any unengaged model within 18 inches of the farseer and within his line of sight. Both players roll a d6 and add the leadership value of their respective models. For each point the farseer wins by, the target loses a wound, with no armor saves allowed.

Keep in mind leadership tests are specific, they always say "Leadership test". A leadership test, as defined in the rulebook, is specifically a test which requires the model to roll under its leadership value on 2d6 added together.

I will go with Leadership of specific models for purpose of Mind War.

Take it to YMDC.

G

Already checked it on there, its been done to death, in every case it was stated by all involved that mind war is not a leadership test.

The examples used in the threads were tyranid synapse wh are assumed to pass all leadership tests, and orks.

Mind war is the way it always has been, not a leadership test. Orks still fry to it.

If it got the okay on YMDC then that is an excellent tactic. Too bad you can no longer augment... that would really mess them up.

G

Indeed, but sigh, only in apocalypse nowadays (the eldar seer council datasheet brings back augment).

I keep hearing good things about Apoc but I mostly just play in tournaments.

G

Its a good "off season" sort of activity if you've got a large group of gaming friends.

We've got a fun one coming up in january,

Eldar Vs. Everyone Else

We're taking back the galaxy

Four eldar players fielding 8k each, against 4-8 players on the other side. Should be fun/tough for the eldar, as about half of the other side is orks.

I believe Biel Tan believes their race can take back the old empire. They will have make good use of the webway portals though. Oh for a suit of wraithbone armor!

G

tzeentchling wrote:Have you considered changing one of the DA squads into a tri-flamer Storm Guardian unit? It seems like it would be ideal for its ability to deny cover, especially for units that like to sit back and hold objectives (like SM scouts or Pathfinders). And no one can debate the effectiveness of the flamers on GEQs/Orks!

Tough thing about this squad is you have to have 11 fig squad to get x3 flamers. 92 pts + Warlock 25 pts + destuctor 10 pts and throw in Wave Sepent 90 pts. So 217 pts to throw down 3 flamers. Is that efficient? Not t mention $60 to buy storm figs.

targetawg wrote:The way its worded, Mind war is versus the ld 7 of the nob.

Mob rule: The mob may exchange its leadership value for the number of models in the mob.

Mind war: Doesnt target the mob, it targets a specific individual. Both players roll a d6 and add the respective leadership of their model.

This isn't a leadership test, its just using the characteristic on the profile and adding a d6.

Although, I can see this being an issue to be argued at events...

MASSIVELY misquoted....

Mob Rule: ORK MODELS exchange their leadership value for the number of models in the mob.

It is crystal clear...

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:

tzeentchling wrote:Have you considered changing one of the DA squads into a tri-flamer Storm Guardian unit? It seems like it would be ideal for its ability to deny cover, especially for units that like to sit back and hold objectives (like SM scouts or Pathfinders). And no one can debate the effectiveness of the flamers on GEQs/Orks!

Tough thing about this squad is you have to have 11 fig squad to get x3 flamers. 92 pts + Warlock 25 pts + destuctor 10 pts and throw in Wave Sepent 90 pts. So 217 pts to throw down 3 flamers. Is that efficient? Not t mention $60 to buy storm figs.

Well, you do get a wave serpent, too. Mine usually runs about 235 total, with shuriken cannon and spirit stones, plus a singing spear for the warlock. It's not terribly efficient, but name a place in the Eldar army you can get multiple flamers? I mean, yeah, destructor locks, but you're limited in how many you can take, and they're not a scoring unit, which is the point. Plus, they can actually do something against vehicles in close combat, which Dire Avengers cannot.

The money is an issue, of course, but I'm converting mine out of dark eldar warriors and howling banshee swords.

Money isn't problem for me.

Hell, I'm spending $400 on bits to do 'lock conversions on bikes.

Shep wrote:

targetawg wrote:The way its worded, Mind war is versus the ld 7 of the nob.

Mob rule: The mob may exchange its leadership value for the number of models in the mob.

Mind war: Doesnt target the mob, it targets a specific individual. Both players roll a d6 and add the respective leadership of their model.

This isn't a leadership test, its just using the characteristic on the profile and adding a d6.

Although, I can see this being an issue to be argued at events...

MASSIVELY misquoted....

Mob Rule: ORK MODELS exchange their leadership value for the number of models in the mob.

It is crystal clear...

Actually yours is massively misquoted.

Here's the entire rule, typed, verbatim from the codex. your "QUOTE" doesn't exist. Bolded parts for emphasis.


"Mob rule!

Ork psychology and morale is directly linked to the number of boyz around them at any given time. An ork with a trukkload of his mates backing him up is a good sight more confident than one with just his half-wit mate Zog at his heels! Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the fearless special rule"

If you're going to claim someone else misquoted, you may want to well, actually quote it right yourself. Page 31.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Money isn't problem for me.

Hell, I'm spending $400 on bits to do 'lock conversions on bikes.

Then you're doing something wrong or you're going absolutely insane on conversions, what the heck are you using that costs that much? I mean I thought I spent alot, and I'm probably at 25% of what you're quoting to do mine.

The mond war issue should be discussed at YMDC. It is not that cut and dry after reading the Orc mob rules.

Storm Guardians with enhance do okay in close combat against stuff like tactical Marines.

G

HQ: 720

Jet Council 1: 590
1 Farseer: Fortune, Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones, Mind war Jetbike -> 170
8 Warlocks: 2 x Enhance, 2 x Embolden, 2x Destructor, Jetbikes -> 420

Autarch: Jetbike, laser lance, mandiblasters -> 130

TROOPS: 795

10 x Dire Avengers 1: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 2: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

10 x Dire Avengers 3: 265
Transport: Waveserpent with TL Brightlance, Spirit Stones

Heavy Support: 230

2x Fire Prism Grav Tank


Total: 1745

Looks quite good.
If the Lootas target the Prisms, fine. Every shot not going against the Serpents is fine. I found that three DA squads in Serpents suffice at the 1750 pt level. But still I feel that this will not be a top tier list. Marines are a hard nut to crack.

targetawg wrote:

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Money isn't problem for me.

Hell, I'm spending $400 on bits to do 'lock conversions on bikes.

Then you're doing something wrong or you're going absolutely insane on conversions, what the heck are you using that costs that much? I mean I thought I spent alot, and I'm probably at 25% of what you're quoting to do mine.

Windrider hosts x2 $125 each. Warlock x 18 $10 each. 250 + 180 = $435. I didn't factor in my discount, but yeah......

Ah, I didn't add in the cost of the warlocks I used, just the conversion bits.

It is quite an army to do, isn't it?

Green Blow Fly wrote:
wustenfeux

I agree with what you have said wholeheartedly. Here are some batreps from three recent games against eldar you might find interesting:

BA vs Eldar Batreps

G

Indeed, an interesting report. It supports my comments.

That eldar list in your batrep is horrible I'll point out.

It's also illegal or you don't have it quite right

Autarchs can't choose 2 guns and the lance, as far as I know, although I'm not positive on that

Jetbikes come in a max squad of 10.

Targetawg: Have you ever played your list in a tournament?

Well, w/out getting drawn into the various debates going on, I'd like to comment that I don't think there's sufficient anti-tank. 3 Twin Linked bs 3 bright lances ought to pen 3 * 1/3 * 3/4 = 3/4 of a pen per round.

If you are up against a Walker heavy army (3 Soul Grinders, 6 Dreads from new Marines, Killa Kan rush from Orks, even Defilers from CSM) you could easily get into a situation where you are unable to assault (as dreads will thwack your councils and hold them in place for multi-charging), and also unable to win the shooting war (if Dire Avengers get out they will get pie plated).

Targetawg wrote:
That eldar list in your batrep is horrible I'll point out.

It's also illegal or you don't have it quite right

Autarchs can't choose 2 guns and the lance, as far as I know, although I'm not positive on that

Jetbikes come in a max squad of 10.

I have to be honest here and just say you are a big f00. It's obvious you don't have much experience, want to come across as a hot shot, and you are a troll too. Come down to Florida and I will clean your clock.

The verdict over at YMDC is nob can use mod Ld versus mond war.

G

I have to be honest here and just say you are a big f00. It's obvious you don't have much experience, want to come across as a hot shot, and you are a troll too. Come down to Florida and I will clean your clock.

Well, I played the GT final in October with a mech Eldar army that worked very well in 4th ed. I know what I'm talking about.
Sometime, I'll come back to Florida and battle you. I've been there for Christmas vacation when I studied at Princeton University.

I was talking to targetawg.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I was talking to targetawg.

G

Okay. Targetawg now has to come out of cover...

G

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Edited by Modquisition to get thread back on track

Okay, G try to stop spamming.

Targetawg: Now you have to cope with several scenarios. I'll give you one. It happened to me in the GT final:
The army consists of six Dreads and several Tacticals in drop pods. Assume that there are 5 objectives and as many Dreads as possible land upon the objectives in first turn. How do you deal with it. Suppose that the Pods contest the objectives.

I like your second revised list better, but would still offer a couple suggestions.

I would suggest dropping the autarch and a fire prism in exchange for another serpent loaded with DA's, or even the flame-storm gaurdians, and max out the council.
My reasons for this are thus:
I assume the autarch is riding with the coucil (no offense, if he isn't I will have to consider you stupid). That makes one unit in your army 720 pts. The lance is only cool on the charge anyway. Big target, big score for the enemy.
Another serpent load of DA's gives you yet another troop option for taking objectives, gives you a higher figure count for your points, and another front line anti-tank unit.
With all the TL brightlances you will now be sporting, a single fireprism is best used as anti-horde and decoy.

Staring down 5 tanks and a bike council, the average player will try for the "big threats" first, namely the council and prism. Thats at least one shot not trying to cook your transports.

Just some thoughts, still a good list though.

The dual council has the advantage in this one, but for both the strategy is the same:

Charge councils in order to engage as many dreads and their respective pods at once.

Dangerous terrain tests will kill a warlock 1/24 times
(1/6 wound, 4+ save, 4+ reroll) so thats not an issue.

Leave the farseer dragging behind so he doesn't hit combat with the dread, since the dread strikes at initiative.

On the charge, dread strikes first since he's assumably in cover (objectives typically are). 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, 1.5 or so wound, .3 or so dead warlocks.

Coming at the dread, say you only throw a bit more than half of the squad on the dread, the rest at the pod or another dread.

5 warlocks = 15 attacks = 10 hits, you'll get 1/3 pen, 1/6 glance, so 3 pen and 1 glance will blow a dread.

Tactical squads you just have to ignore until it comes time that the dreads are dead and you can just focus fire dire avengers on them and charge in with the councils once they're weakened. The real issue in this is the tactical squads for my list


Edit: I mathhammered agaisnt AV13 Ironclads btw, just to cover the worst case scenario

Dangerous terrain tests will kill a warlock 1/24 times
(1/6 wound, 4+ save, 4+ reroll) so thats not an issue.

Not sure if you have a save if you failed the test in 5th ed.

Tactical squads you just have to ignore until it comes time that the dreads are dead and you can just focus fire dire avengers on them and charge in with the councils once they're weakened. The real issue in this is the tactical squads for my list

Well, the game might only last 5 rounds and then you eventually will not have killed all the necessary Dreads.
As I said, three troop units protected by Serpents is fine.

DeathGryffin wrote:I like your second revised list better, but would still offer a couple suggestions.

I would suggest dropping the autarch and a fire prism in exchange for another serpent loaded with DA's, or even the flame-storm gaurdians, and max out the council.
My reasons for this are thus:
I assume the autarch is riding with the coucil (no offense, if he isn't I will have to consider you stupid). That makes one unit in your army 720 pts. The lance is only cool on the charge anyway. Big target, big score for the enemy.
Another serpent load of DA's gives you yet another troop option for taking objectives, gives you a higher figure count for your points, and another front line anti-tank unit.
With all the TL brightlances you will now be sporting, a single fireprism is best used as anti-horde and decoy.

Staring down 5 tanks and a bike council, the average player will try for the "big threats" first, namely the council and prism. Thats at least one shot not trying to cook your transports.

Just some thoughts, still a good list though.

I've toyed with the idea of 4 DA units, the only thing stopping me currently is just buying another serpent and DA unit. Its definitley an option though, and 40 DA's is nothing to sneeze at.

What think the rest of you on a 4th DA unit?

wuestenfux wrote:

Dangerous terrain tests will kill a warlock 1/24 times
(1/6 wound, 4+ save, 4+ reroll) so thats not an issue.

Not sure if you have a save if you failed the test in 5th ed.

5th edition dangerous terrain tests ignore armor and cover saves. Invulnerable saves are allowed

Don't know if I like the Autarch he is pretty expensive and makes the unit more expensive. He competes with the 3rd fire prism. I was testing a list similar to that but without autarach with 3rd prism.

Haven't thought about adding a 4th DA squad but that might be a good idea. Having 4 scoring units is pretty good for the D3+2 objective mission. however prisms are pretty good against hordes or linking shots against mech.

Dread bash might be a pain. There is a dreadbash player at my local shop but he runs rhinos instead of drop pods. Was pretty annoying playing him with nids in 5th. Haven't played him with Eldar because I haven't gotten all the necessary wave serpents and DAs and been busyin with school. Just seems tough to take out 6 dreds with 3 bright lances and a seer council. seer council can't be everywhere and you still have to kill his scoring units.

Don't know if I like the Autarch he is pretty expensive and makes the unit more expensive. He competes with the 3rd fire prism. I was testing a list similar to that but without autarach with 3rd prism.

A Seer Council is one of the best anvil units in the game. An Autarch makes it a decent hammer unit on the charge.

Green Blow Fly wrote:The verdict over at YMDC is nob can use mod Ld versus mond war.

G

You mean from all those 4 people? Do you mean the post that hasn't actually quoted a rule yet? Is that the verdict you're talking about? Yeah...good luck with that.

ender502

ender502 wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:The verdict over at YMDC is nob can use mod Ld versus mond war.

G

You mean from all those 4 people? Do you mean the post that hasn't actually quoted a rule yet? Is that the verdict you're talking about? Yeah...good luck with that.

ender502

Indeed, it is the way I quoted it in every tournament I've played in, and I haven't even had an ork player disagree in person. Judges have ruled this way every time without batting an eye.

Mind war versus the ld7 of the mob is what I've seen ruled every time, so I'm not too concerned with what comes up on YMDC

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Edited by Modquisition to get thread back on track



A gaggle of Warp spiders would shine in a list like this as well. Those with a exarch and the right autarch become the uber all around unit.

Not Balanced and overspecialized in an army of overspecialization. Drop one of the councils and one of the avengers. Run with your jet bike theme with a warlock led guardian jetbike squad with 4 shuriken cannons. Bring in a Falcon as emergency back up transport and added fire power. Any points left bring more targets to shoot. force me to split my fire. Bring this current build against my Tau or any shooty Army, it may not work so well. Must be pretty and simple in gameplay though. Best of luck

focusedfire wrote:Not Balanced and overspecialized in an army of overspecialization. Drop one of the councils and one of the avengers. Run with your jet bike theme with a warlock led guardian jetbike squad with 4 shuriken cannons. Bring in a Falcon as emergency back up transport and added fire power. Any points left bring more targets to shoot. force me to split my fire. Bring this current build against my Tau or any shooty Army, it may not work so well. Must be pretty and simple in gameplay though. Best of luck

Don't think you grasp the eldar too well as of yet, here's a couple minor corrections/point

1) Guardian jetbikes can take 1 cannon per 3 squad members, warlocks don't count. Most a squad can take is 3, if it has at least 9 members

Also, you may want to read the rest of the post, we've discussed why falcons are poor fifth edition choices, and why guardian jetbikes arguably are as well.

Secondly, more units is bad in fifth edition, it gives up kill points, so making you split your fire isn't a good thing, as it means I'm also giving away KP left and right

Edited by Modquisition to get thread back on track

Edited by Modquisition to get thread back on track

Modquisition on:
At request I have edited posts to get the thread back on track. Further statements that may be construed as threats of a personal nature will result in disciplinary actions.
Modquisition off:.

If you are going to go with a seerbike council I think you ought to have the autarch. He is the roxxxorr!!

I can't remember who posted it but I will be trying out some spiders...why? Because I still don't have enough serpents...

Hmmmm.....always more possibilities.

ender502

Let me know how spiders go for you, I've typically had mixed luck with them and since cut them from my list in fifth edition, although they were a mainstay in 4th.

My issues have been:

Relatively expensive and short ranged, fold in combat
Expensive for what they do
Don't score
Ap - Means they stink on tanks nowadays

But, that being said, I do still love them for their ability to put out fearsome amounts of STR 6 shots and pop away (if you roll well) far enough to avoid charges.

They worked okay against horde orks in shooting, but then he waaghed and caught them with an 18 inch charge range.

I just really like s6. They are also great at attcking flanks whencombined with a DA/serpent squad. You DO have to be careful with them. They fold in HTH.

ender502

I have constructed *doughproxycough* the warp spider army i posted here a month or so ago, running 2 spider squads each 9 men strong including powerbladed and dual spinner exarch accompanied by an autarch with jump generator, manid-blasters, power weapon and fusion gun.

Using them just within range of all their guns to thin a unit out and grab their attention, they then jump toward/in some cover. The attacked unit usually assaults into said cover where I get the first chance to dice them up with almost a dozen powerweapon attks plus the rest of the squad, then they withdraw if necessary. Now they are free to repeat the process. Usually they pick a fight with another unit while my swooping hawks come in with template and the already bruised unit.

So far my w/l/d is 4/1/0 not bad for my first honest army, eh?

Interesting idea that.

I liked the clip for the new DoW video where the warp spider keeps phasing in and out as it moves towards the Blood Raven.

G

For the record

Guardian jetbike squads 3-12 models

Warlocks 3-10 models

I don't see problem with dreads.

Dread charges and gets 3-4 attacks vs. rerollable 4+ inv

If dread out of cover he may be cooked before he swings. I mean vs. seer council with enhance.

***Wish I could of seen fireworks before mods hopped in, lol

Oh well I'll be, you are indeed correct, I never noticed you could take 12 in a squad.

Thats interested, pretty sure I wouldn't ever use one that big, but still, interesting!

Nice catch, my mistake on that

Dual councils definitely warrants testing. I went to log on vassal but it was down :(.

Fire prisms severely under perform in 5th edition. Just forget about using them as anti tank they just bounce off anything with a Rhino chassis. Against hordes they fair better but you can still get some pretty bad scatter. They may be still worth it against hordes or for the linking ap3 large template against marines.

Targetawg: I'll be interested to know how this list fares against biker nob lists.

If your councils get in HtH with a nob squad I feel they would be toast, charging or not. That said they could likely eat away the rest of the army fairly easily.


I like your list overall, and may very well do soething similar with my Eldar come next year.

Against nob biker it breaks even without the charge, wins by ~3 wounds with the charge, wins by 6-8 wounds with the autarch as well.

If you don't get them on the charge though, seer council loses the battle of attrition due to wound allocation.

However, it'll take that nob squad almost the entire game to chew on that seer council if they don't lose the combat and run early on.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:Targetawg: I'll be interested to know how this list fares against biker nob lists.

If your councils get in HtH with a nob squad I feel they would be toast, charging or not. That said they could likely eat away the rest of the army fairly easily.


I like your list overall, and may very well do soething similar with my Eldar come next year.

So we all on same page.

Nobz have 3 base attacks, 2 HtH weapons, 5 toughness....correct? So 5 attacks each on charge? 3's to hit, don't roll 1's to wound (with klaws) I'll say 3 klaws per 10 nobz....15 attacks 10 hits, 9 wounds caused.

Seer council has hands full.

I've mathhammered it earlier, but for now:

10 Nobs, Toughness is irrelevant as witchblades always wound on 2's. 3 Klaws is standard, plus 1 on the warboss.

More often the seer council will get the charge due to its assault phase move, so, council with the charge in this scenario:

10 Models, 30 attacks, 20 hits, 17 wounds

Nobs take their 6+ save (no one upgrades their armor) and save 3, 14 wounds, FNP, 7 wounds unsaved

No nobs dead due to wound allocation, although typically you can expect most of these wounds to hit the warboss since he's an IC.

Attacks back:

Assuming no dead nobs:

14 klaw attacks, 7 hits, 6 wounds
4+ rerollable makes that 1.5 wounds.

7 other nobs, 4 attacks, 28 attacks, 14 hits, 12 wounds, 3+ rerollable save means 1.3 wounds.

3 unsaved wounds versus 7.

Nobs test at 10 - 4, LD 6.

If they break, the council runs them down.


The rounds after this one get a little...uglier..for the eldar

I thought a 4+ armor save is the defacto standard for nob bikers.

G

Crap, you're right, I just reread the entry


It ends up being 4 unsaved wounds to 3

Slight edge to the council, but not as good as I first thought, nice catch

targetawg wrote:

focusedfire wrote:Not Balanced and overspecialized in an army of overspecialization. Drop one of the councils and one of the avengers. Run with your jet bike theme with a warlock led guardian jetbike squad with 4 shuriken cannons. Bring in a Falcon as emergency back up transport and added fire power. Any points left bring more targets to shoot. force me to split my fire. Bring this current build against my Tau or any shooty Army, it may not work so well. Must be pretty and simple in gameplay though. Best of luck

Don't think you grasp the eldar too well as of yet, here's a couple minor corrections/point

1) Guardian jetbikes can take 1 cannon per 3 squad members, warlocks don't count. Most a squad can take is 3, if it has at least 9 members

Also, you may want to read the rest of the post, we've discussed why falcons are poor fifth edition choices, and why guardian jetbikes arguably are as well.

Secondly, more units is bad in fifth edition, it gives up kill points, so making you split your fire isn't a good thing, as it means I'm also giving away KP left and right

Edited by Modquisition to get thread back on track

Depends on your tactics. Are you playing for a tie in two thirds of the missions Hoping KP saves you, or are you playing for the win from the get go. Seems counter intuitive to load the best shooting sqauds into a transport where they won't fire. I know they'll get out at some point, but it seems that your gambling a lot on some one not getting on your back door while you wait for that magic moment. Gaurdian jet bikes Get 4 Shurikens if running 10 -12. Falcon was off the cuff for a build that was short of fire power. Remember, instead of running a bright lance You run missile launcher You have 2 long range hitters as long as missles fire in anti infantry mode. Plus You can hide a farsseer in it. Farseer powers DO NOT Need LOS. I was thinking war-walkers as the additional targets that have plenty of fire power. If that doesn't fit with the theme then swooping hawks. Your strategy didn't preclude FAST ATTACKS.

focusedfire, part of the reason of playing mechanized units is that they can't be shot until they get out, making a lot of anti-infantry weapons useless. Given the relative fragility of the Eldar troops, this is a good thing. And while DAs are great shooting units, they're only good within 18", and against infantry. So yes, put them in serpents until they need to pop out and fire. It's a risk that it won't get blown up on the way, and they'll be able to get out when you want and such, but that's the game.

Jetbikes are good units. But they can be hit by enemy anti-infantry fire, and essentially are MEQ that can move 12", but with LD8. It's simply another thing for your opponent to target, and hiding large units is hard. The shuriken cannons are good, but it's only 1 per 3, and they're still at BS3. In any case the OP has apparently tried Guardian Jetbikes in this army build and concluded they don't work for him.

Tzeenchling, I understand the why of the transports and I didn't say drop all of them, just one. It just seems like the tactic is to rush out and park on the objectives without doing much to reduce the enemies ability to hurt you. Or, to hope the serps survive til 4th-5th turn to dash in while not giving the opponet much to worry about. I like dancing the waltz but Kaporere is dancing too. only with a kick.

The jetbikes, I believe I mentioned warlock led.....just pick which power you prefer. They're not perfect but being a very fast moving troop that still lays out good fire power and can (possibly) hold an objective.I like them for flexibility . And, I understand that different people play differently. He did ask for opinions, mine may be brown and stinky, but he did ask. I, also, will probably play test some of these builds in this list. I'm here to learn so, please, do not give up on this dull student.

It looks like a fun list to play. I would be interested to see any changes after it is play tested.

G

targetawg wrote:
Keep in mind nob bikers in combat though will only get a 6+ save typically (not many folks put eavy armor or cybork on them) and then a 4+ FNP, whereas I get the 3+ reroll or 4+ reroll, making me far more resilient.

Warbikes give a 4+ armor and 4+ Cover so that is a 4+A/4+C/5++/4+FNP...For 5 points the Cybork body is completely worth it. It is the only thing that gives them a chance versus PF heavy lists. If you are going to have someone proxy the Nob Biker List make sure they give them Cybork Bodies as it is something you WILL see.

I Going to rock with venerable Furisios. Led by Dante

Green Blow Fly wrote:I Going to rock with venerable Furisios. Led by Dante

WTF is this jibberish? What are you going to rock, with Dante?

More info needed....