I am getting tired of seeing this unit and their just tearing through people on the table.

I play Eldar and Space Marines. I asked for help for my Eldar, but I have shelved them until I get a good grip on my 5th Edition Space Marines. Some of the suggestions for the Eldar actually did some damage. The Fire Dragons caught them slipping after they won a combat and could not hide. Yeah....... Tactics combined with the melta guns worked. Might not work again with the same guy. I fed him a unit of jet bikes and he took the bait.


Anyone, now to the Space Marines and how do they actually stop and destroy the rampaging Warboss (bike, power klaw, attack squig, cyborg), riding with Pain boy (grot orderly) and 5 Nobs (2 power klaws, bosspole, 3 big choppas)


How about my own version of the War Biker Stoppers
1.Captain (Bike, Relic Blade, Powerfist, Storm Shield) with a command biker squad
2.Apothecary (bolt pistol and chain sword)
3. x2 Powerfist with melta guns and stormshield
4. Powersword with plasma pistols
5. Company Champion

I figure this would be mutual suicide between the two, with the one who did the charging actually coming out better to a small degree. The Marine Biker Squad could handle this number of Nob Bikers with War boss but probaly no more, especially if they get the charge and shoot the melta guns and plasma pistols before assaulting.

What else could I invite for my Space Marine List to take down this super and I am sure to see this unit very often unit? What success has anyone else used? What say you?

The're still only T4(5). Assault termies with Thunder hammers please.

Take a unit of Tactical Space Marines with a Teleport Homer and spread them out in a long skirmish line, to encourage the Nobz to charge them, and add a Librarian with Force Dome and Avenger.

Now, when the Nobz crash into them, they'll beat them up, but the Force Dome should help maintain some survivors, who will book it using Combat Tactics.

In the next turn, a unit or two of Terminators comes down on the Nobz using the Teleport Homer and cooks them with their Heavy Flamethrowers. If the Tactical Squad managed to rally, use their Flamethrower and the Librarian's Avenger power.

The trick here is to use Heavy Flamethrowers to both deny saves, and inflict large numbers of hits, to promote a large number of failed Cybork Invulnerable saves and Feel No Pain checks.

I suppose you could also do this with Scouts and Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods, but I think it would be harder to sucker the Orks into position.

Line up tactical marines in front of 3x or 6x Ironclad Dreadnoughts. If you don't like Ironclads, Assault Terminators in Crusaders. Smash them in the assault.

Shooting is not going to be your best option for countering them strongly.

Vindicator/Demolisher.

Tactica: Beating Nob Bikers
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/222854.page

Moz wrote:Tactica: Beating Nob Bikers
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/222854.page

Muchas gracias. I do not care what they say about you, You are okay.

Nurglitch wrote:Take a unit of Tactical Space Marines with a Teleport Homer and spread them out in a long skirmish line, to encourage the Nobz to charge them, and add a Librarian with Force Dome and Avenger.

Now, when the Nobz crash into them, they'll beat them up, but the Force Dome should help maintain some survivors, who will book it using Combat Tactics.

In the next turn, a unit or two of Terminators comes down on the Nobz using the Teleport Homer and cooks them with their Heavy Flamethrowers. If the Tactical Squad managed to rally, use their Flamethrower and the Librarian's Avenger power.

The trick here is to use Heavy Flamethrowers to both deny saves, and inflict large numbers of hits, to promote a large number of failed Cybork Invulnerable saves and Feel No Pain checks.

I suppose you could also do this with Scouts and Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods, but I think it would be harder to sucker the Orks into position.

Thats pretty bad advice, a single Nob biker unit might be "annoyed" at a couple of heavy flamers and some bolter fire, but the worst Nob biker armies out there are going to have TWO units, two warbosses and around 16-18 Nob bikers having a total of 8-10 power claws. If you've got all these marines on foot on the board, the next turn you'll lose your entire army to a multi-charge with an escort off of the board.

Basically, this advice is garbage against any Nob Biker that knows what he's doing.

sourclams wrote:Line up tactical marines in front of 3x or 6x Ironclad Dreadnoughts. If you don't like Ironclads, Assault Terminators in Crusaders. Smash them in the assault.

Shooting is not going to be your best option for countering them strongly.

a marine squad or two as bait seems to be almost a foregone conclusion here. As long as you resign those 1 or two squads to DEATH and accept it, thats ok I guess, they wont be surviving the assault of even 1 unit of nob bikers, not in any numbers to matter.

Godzilla Marine is an interesting proposal, as far as the LR with Terminators, I figured THIS as a good attack just last night...

-with optimal conditions this will kill off a biker unit with great efficiency- (its all eggs in one basket though)

LR Redeemer
Librarian with Null Zone- power armour (epistolary if you're going to want to charge with him)
Chaplain-power armour, digital lasers
5xLightning Claw terminators or 5xTHammer Terminators (t-Hammers will kill all Nobs but have larger reprisal)

Wait until Nobs enter within range of your assault (20" from Raider or less, but preferably within distance to flame twice. You'll prolly need sacrificial marines for that one) Hit them with Librarians "Null Zone" power to hinder their invulnerable saves. Roll up LR and flame away ignoring cover, armour, and basically ignoring their invulnerable. (I think you still get FNP against ap3 though, cannot remember and I'm at work) Also disgorge terminators and chaplain. Librarian has a force weapon so get him out too if you dare, he could get lucky and gak a Nob. Terminators charge with 20 LC attacks (Needing luck but could be absolutly devestating depending on flamer damage) with RR's to hit (chaplain) and RR's to wound (Claws). If you did it right ("right" means with a little luck and good maneuvering), the warboss will be the only one attacking back and lose combat after killing only a couple of terminators.

Now, of course you're standing out in the middle of the board waiting to be charged by the other Warboss and Nobs, but you've taken no real casualties so maybe you can dish out a little pain. Your battle plan also hopefully didnt require the sacrifice of many marine lives to accomplish it so the remaining biker nob unit will be facing off against a whole army behind the terminators they mean to kill next. If they were busy elsewhere, simply reboard your LR, rinse, and Repeat....oh, after making sure the LR moves within 6" of the warboss to prevent a rally and hopefully escort his butt off of the table.

Of course no battle plan survives contact with the enemy, but this might be a good place to start if your marines are frustrated with BikerNobs.

There's also your own BikerMarineNobs: (compliments of Stelek)

Khan on bike
Chaplain on bike with Digits
Command Squad w/
Apothacary
4xVet with 2xLC AND stormsheild.
Standard

Twin lightningclaw are used against hordes....
1xlightningclaw and Stormsheild used against Bikernobs....

Furious Assault
Outflank
Hit and run
RR's to hit
RR's to wound
Possible instant death Compliments of the Khan

If you're going to do the Raider Rush, why not go all out? I really don't like the Land Raider Redeemer in this scenario because nobs still get Cybork and FNP and can allocate wounds to multiple model types without much fear. Crusaders have the extra payload which makes them attractive.

HQ:
Vulkan
190

Elites:
7 Assault Terminators x2
8 Assault Terminators x1

Heavy:
Land Raider Crusader x3

Troops
5 Tactical Marines x2

In retrospect, I do like this more than my Ironclad list. Crusaders can keep moving 12" so that Nob Bikers only hit on 6s which makes them nigh unkillable before they disgorge their cargo.

1st turn: move 12" and laugh

2nd turn: move 12" and laugh

3rd turn: move 6" and win.

I was suprised by how easy my Dark Eldar where able to handle this, just zap one or 2 nobs with darklances or blasters and then hit them with horrofexs til they are pinned.

sourclams wrote:If you're going to do the Raider Rush, why not go all out? I really don't like the Land Raider Redeemer in this scenario because nobs still get Cybork and FNP and can allocate wounds to multiple model types without much fear. Crusaders have the extra payload which makes them attractive.

HQ:
Vulkan
190

Elites:
7 Assault Terminators x2
8 Assault Terminators x1

Heavy:
Land Raider Crusader x3

Troops
5 Tactical Marines x2

In retrospect, I do like this more than my Ironclad list. Crusaders can keep moving 12" so that Nob Bikers only hit on 6s which makes them nigh unkillable before they disgorge their cargo.

1st turn: move 12" and laugh

2nd turn: move 12" and laugh

3rd turn: move 6" and win.

If you're going to use Land Raider Crusaders and Assault termies, why not use Black Templars and bring the Emperor's Champion for Preferred enemy? You lose mastercrafted thunder hammers and 3+ stormshields, but you get rerolling thunderhammers, a chance to reroll some LC's, and you're fearless in CC, which helps out your normal marine squads.

My advice lines up with what others are advocating.

Vindicators and Assault Terminators are your best bet. Make sure he has to come through difficult terrain to get to you.

Flamers are great weapons, but won't work against Nob Bikers. Not even the heavy variety. In fact, I think they are the worst option since the make you think you can kill the Nobs, when in fact you're just killing yourself.

Off Topic: Who in Houston is running Nob Bikers? I haven't been able to find a person playing them yet, all my games have been with proxies.

GK Termies

I know this was mentioned in the link moz refrenced. Although it was suggested to use the incenirators i too agree they would be smashed aside.

But a 5 man squad with 3 psycannons and another squad with 2 psycannons would be able to whittle down a nob bike squad before it had a chance to charge.

Str 6 at BS 4 + no armor sv and no inv save = dead nob bike squad.

Ummm, nob bikers have a 3+ cover when 'boosting or a 4+ cover standing still in the open followed by a 4+ feel no pain....

....psycannons do nothing, and they have too many wounds in the squadron to kill them with Nemesis weapons.

GKT's cannot kill Nob biker units, stay in your land raiders that are firing their lascannons....and pray they miss them with claws.

Grey Knights are one of the poorest choices for fighting these boyz.

What? I have disagree with you. Obviously you have no argument supporting your case other than pyscannons do nothing.

I play Grey Knights, just a little differently to the others but it's all good.
What point game are talking about?

Land Raider Crusader... do I have to say anything? Yes, hurricane bolters can always fire when the tank moves 12"
POTM allows another weapon (multimelta in this case)
So we can shrug off most assaults.
Grand Master... Kills Warboss easily with NFW (Raw rules) burns a few with his incinerator before charging. Has retinue to live and kill again..
Grey Knight Terminators... Efficient CC monsters, iniative order, 3+, 3+ (t5+) no; save, no; feel no pain. Incinerator should burn loads too aswell as stormbolters.
A unit of bikers cost 700pts? well GM+9GKT retinue costs 594pts. around 13 wounds from CC of the GKT alone! HA

IMO place your wounds from shooting whereever you want... I'm still striking before you in CC.

I would use exterminatus; Melta torpedo, you can't get a cover save from that!

The Grand Master has a decent chance of popping the warboss, but the other termies will be hard pressed to cause over 10 wounds (what it takes to kill 1 Nob) before getting hit back with alot of hell including powerklaws. (The Nobs will also have a 5+ INV save and WS5 due to the Waaagh Banner) Not to mention your 10 man GKT squad will not be in a transport, so the Nobs will most likely be assaulting you, and all the Uge choppas will be swinging at I4 for furious charge. You will most certainly not get the charge off if you are not mounted, which dilutes your CC effectiveness considerably.

9GKT's at 18 attacks
18x(1/2)x(2/3)x(2/3 failed 5+ saves) = 4 wounds, not even killing a single Nob. You have alot of angry powerklaws coming back at you.

9GKT's charging at 27 attacks
27x(1/2)x(2/3)x(2/3 failed 5+ saves) = 6 wounds, not really all that much better, and your GKT's are done for.

Maybe if you gave all your GKT's thunderhammers, but they you should be playing Space Marines for 3+ INV storm shields or Black Templars for re-rolls to hit in CC.

Boyofdestiny205 wrote:GK Termies

I know this was mentioned in the link moz refrenced. Although it was suggested to use the incenirators i too agree they would be smashed aside.

But a 5 man squad with 3 psycannons and another squad with 2 psycannons would be able to whittle down a nob bike squad before it had a chance to charge.

Str 6 at BS 4 + no armor sv and no inv save = dead nob bike squad.

Do your homework better. The incinerator is the best choice because it wounds on 3+ against the Nobz and they will only get their FNP save. The Psycannon is useless because Nob bikers always get a 4+ cover save (because of their bike). So they would get a 4+ cover save and a 4+ FNP against any that got through.

Now if you replace "5 man squad" with "10 fire dragons" and replace "3 psycannons" with "10 Meltaguns", and then take 2 more squads just like that, you may have enough firepower to actually kill a Nob Bike Squad.

Actually that's not bad. 3 units of Fire Dragons will crush this list and the Land Raider Spam lists running around out there. Throw in some anti-horde for good measure and you've got yourself a decent army.

whitedragon wrote:

Boyofdestiny205 wrote:GK Termies

I know this was mentioned in the link moz refrenced. Although it was suggested to use the incenirators i too agree they would be smashed aside.

But a 5 man squad with 3 psycannons and another squad with 2 psycannons would be able to whittle down a nob bike squad before it had a chance to charge.

Str 6 at BS 4 + no armor sv and no inv save = dead nob bike squad.

Do your homework better. The incinerator is the best choice because it wounds on 3+ against the Nobz and they will only get their FNP save. The Psycannon is useless because Nob bikers always get a 4+ cover save (because of their bike). So they would get a 4+ cover save and a 4+ FNP against any that got through.

Now if you replace "5 man squad" with "10 fire dragons" and replace "3 psycannons" with "10 Meltaguns", and then take 2 more squads just like that, you may have enough firepower to actually kill a Nob Bike Squad.

I will surely do that when you yourself do.

Incinertators are only str 5 so how does that wound a T 5 model? Maybe if they are on foot then, yes i agree with your logic.

@ storm knight...you make me laugh.

I dunno where you've been playing but I play Grey Knights as well and am here to tell you they're screwed against double Nob biker lists.

I dont think I need to further embellish what others have already said, you're already wrong on the incinerator point. Its nowhere NEAR as good as you think and anything else Knights can throw at the bikernobs shooty-wise will be inneffectual due to the multi-layer defenses with multiple wounds per model.

roll it out a couple of times if you dont beleive me.

GM and 6 terminators charging out of a land raider, fine, benefit of the doubt you get to charge.

Charging a warboss with claw on bike, and 9 Nobs on Warbikes 4-5 of which have claws, every single one a seperate batch for rolling saves....

....and then there is a second identical unit closeby in support of the first one ready to kill whatever you didnt lose against the first.

Yes, Grey Knights are screwed vs. bikernobs. One of the best current lists against a list widely regarded as the worst....and your telling us that they have a chance.

Yea.

No, I'm not interested in the bridge, thank you.

Ozymandias wrote:Actually that's not bad. 3 units of Fire Dragons will crush this list and the Land Raider Spam lists running around out there. Throw in some anti-horde for good measure and you've got yourself a decent army.

Even when they've got a 3+ cover save? (only the exarch removes the cover save remember.) I dont see it. not even using 30 fire dragons.

Even if you manage to beat the bikernobs with all those firedragons (must be all mounted too) good luck beating the 180 model ork horde with tons of lootaz.

It's not that easy to beat bikernobs. Not that simple. You gotta be more creative than "I'll just shoot them". Shooting them is what they want you to do....it means you're dead next turn.

I haven't played against any nob biker list yet, so this might not work.

If you are playing eldar, try fielding Eldrad. He can use his mind-war to pick of the painboys. Once the painboy is down, all the squad has left is a 4+ cover save (or 3+ after turbo-boost).

For your space marine list, I'd suggest assault terminators with thunderhammer and storm shield (like others have already suggested). They will get a 2+ save against the basic attacks and a 3+ inv save against the powerklaws. They ignore both the cover save (in close combat) and feel no pain for the nobs. On top of that they cause instant death. You will need a land raider (type depends on the rest of your army list) to get them in combat with the nobs though.

Hope this has been at least a little bit helpful.

Daydream wrote:My advice lines up with what others are advocating.

Vindicators and Assault Terminators are your best bet. Make sure he has to come through difficult terrain to get to you.

Flamers are great weapons, but won't work against Nob Bikers. Not even the heavy variety. In fact, I think they are the worst option since the make you think you can kill the Nobs, when in fact you're just killing yourself.

Off Topic: Who in Houston is running Nob Bikers? I haven't been able to find a person playing them yet, all my games have been with proxies.

Chang at Rice Village has one squad of eight that ran through my blood angel's death company and a guy at SugarLand GW has a squad, but I have never played against him yet. I know of another guy who is building one, but he usually plays at Willowbrook GW or the 77th. I met him last week while he was converting some models. I figure it will catch fire with the power gamers here soon based on how well they seem to be doing. And yes I play Marines on the side, as well as Nids and Necrons. I am thinking about Orks as well.

Airmaniac wrote:If you are playing eldar, try fielding Eldrad.

Sigg'd

It shoudl be mentioned that Low ap flamers tend to work well against them.

Sisters of battle do a number on them, so do things like doom sirens and wind of chaos, especially with lash.

Pete

Just curious, what's your basis for that? I realize you negate the cover save, but heavy flamers are only wounding on 4s, FNP and Cybork apply, and you still have to deal 11+ wounds to put one model down.

I mean, yes, you will kill Nobz this way, but how many squads are we sacrificing in the meantime?

Flamers that ignore armor (the ones he listed, wind of chaos - doom siren - and SoBs with Divine guidance) do not give a feel no pain roll.

I give it a meh though, wounding the nobs doesn't help anything - it just means you win by less when you are punking them out with STR8 in assault because he'll pull the wounded guys.

Use the lash to put the powerklaws out of consolidate range and then charge in with princes, defiler, oblit instead - win combat by 4 or 5 wounds and watch them run off the table.
SoBs gotta shoot though, it's about all they can do. Shoot them down to 9 models and pray to the emperor for some lucky tankshock action.

6 Ironclads seem to be the best possible option for killing the Nob Biker list dead. It also has the added advantages of being able to do well against Ork Horde lists and not being to many points that you couldn't take enough troops and/or other units to make the army more usable against other lists in your area.

@Deadshane- If your firedragons are dismounting from their waveserpent and shooting into nobs that just turboboosted, you don't know how to play. After the nobs shoot or assault your screening troops, then you pop out and shoot. 10 shots, 6.66 hits, one wound on warboss, ~3 dead nobs. Do this again with another squad, or just start tank shocking until they run.
Firedragons put a hurting on nob bikers. Played that matchup at FLGS and tournaments and firedragons combined with all the other ap1-2 shooting eldar put out will bring down Nob bikers. They can't spend the game turboboosting and be effective.

Boyofdestiny205 wrote:
I will surely do that when you yourself do.

Incinertators are only str 5 so how does that wound a T 5 model? Maybe if they are on foot then, yes i agree with your logic.

Even at S5, the incinerator hurts the Biker Nobz more than the Psycannon does. The fact that I misquoted a strength value does not make your argument automatically valid.

Pyscannon at S6
1x(2/3 to wound)x(1/2 cover save)x(1/2 feel no pain) = 0..166666667 wounds

Incinerator at S5
1x(1/2 to wound)x(1/2 feel no pain) = 0.25 wounds

Add in the fact that the incinerator hits automatically, can cover multiple models, and is cheaper, makes it the superior choice by far to dealing with Biker Nobz. You might be able to put GKT's with incinerators or maybe even a PAGK purgation squad in an LRC and tank shock the nobs and jump out and bake them, then have a unit of GKT's pray that they finish them off, but that's the best you'll do with Grey Knights.

Moz wrote:Flamers that ignore armor (the ones he listed, wind of chaos - doom siren - and SoBs with Divine guidance) do not give a feel no pain roll.

<edited>

Partially wrong. Winds of Chaos/Breath of Chaos, and SOB's with Divine Guidance who roll 6's ignore feel no pain. Doom siren is AP3, and so it does not.

Exorcists or vindicators/demolishers maybe... it is definitely a tough nut to crack, as there is not a lot of Str8+ AP2- stuff out there that hits more than one model. Maybe a Chapter Master's orbital bombardment? Thunderhammer termies seem the best bet for Marines in melee, unless you are going dreadspam. Conversion beamers maybe...

I don't know really. Nob bikers are just 700+ points of "hurts so good."

Moz wrote:Flamers that ignore armor (the ones he listed, wind of chaos - doom siren - and SoBs with Divine guidance) do not give a feel no pain roll.

I give it a meh though, wounding the nobs doesn't help anything - it just means you win by less when you are punking them out with STR8 in assault because he'll pull the wounded guys.

Use the lash to put the powerklaws out of consolidate range and then charge in with princes, defiler, oblit instead - win combat by 4 or 5 wounds and watch them run off the table.
SoBs gotta shoot though, it's about all they can do. Shoot them down to 9 models and pray to the emperor for some lucky tankshock action.

Well, another way to think about it is to put alot of low AP shots period on the nobs, then charge in with something that dishes out alot of power weapon wounds. If you can spread out enough wounds to shooting, and then charge in with higher than 3 init with multiple power weapons, you could then be taking out a model per wound. There are very few ways to do this reliably though. Demons may be able to do it with Flamers using Wind, and then have a charge from Bloodletters or Crushers. The demons lack anything to Tank Shock with though to bunch the bikers up.

Doom siren is only Ap3? Lame...

whitedragon wrote:
Well, another way to think about it is to put alot of low AP shots period on the nobs, then charge in with something that dishes out alot of power weapon wounds. If you can spread out enough wounds to shooting, and then charge in with higher than 3 init with multiple power weapons, you could then be taking out a model per wound. There are very few ways to do this reliably though. Demons may be able to do it with Flamers using Wind, and then have a charge from Bloodletters or Crushers. The demons lack anything to Tank Shock with though to bunch the bikers up.

If it's all you've got to sprinkle wounds on the unit then yeah, but it's really not ideal. Certainly do the instant death wounds FIRST! If you have a mixed army, it may behoove you to decide to sprinkle wounds onto one unit, and save the S8's for the other. This way all of your guns can still operate, while not reducing each other's effectiveness. I've yet to encounter an army that even poses a threat to the bikes in the 1-3 shooting phases you might allow in a normal game though.

DarthDiggler wrote:6 Ironclads seem to be the best possible option for killing the Nob Biker list dead. It also has the added advantages of being able to do well against Ork Horde lists and not being to many points that you couldn't take enough troops and/or other units to make the army more usable against other lists in your area.

This is why I really like the Ironclad approach, but I think the Assault Terms are still going to be more effective overall versus this specific setup.

Yup. That's all I'm saying is that low ap flamers ignore the 4+ cover save and the feel no pain.

Sure they can still spread out the wounds and such but a SOB dominion squad with 4 flamers and a brazier is going to cause a crap ton of wounds, a lot of them being AP1.

You are talking 15 regular wounds and 5 AP 1 wounds from flamers and another 2 bolter wounds and 1 AP1 out of a 175 point ish unit.

That really good output against a nob squad. If the nobs then charge you, the book of ST Lucius should let you stick around for a bit, and if you have an evicerator you can bump it up to S8 and oblit some orks in the hth phase.

I've had a lot of luck with them against nob bikers.

Pete

Pdeflorio wrote:Yup. That's all I'm saying is that low ap flamers ignore the 4+ cover save and the feel no pain.

Sure they can still spread out the wounds and such but a SOB dominion squad with 4 flamers and a brazier is going to cause a crap ton of wounds, a lot of them being AP1.

You are talking 15 regular wounds and 5 AP 1 wounds from flamers and another 2 bolter wounds and 1 AP1 out of a 175 point ish unit.

That really good output against a nob squad. If the nobs then charge you, the book of ST Lucius should let you stick around for a bit, and if you have an evicerator you can bump it up to S8 and oblit some orks in the hth phase.

I've had a lot of luck with them against nob bikers.

Pete

Running the numbers you're offering...

5 AP1 wounds, means 3.66 wounds past the invulnerable save. 15 regular wounds means 3.25 regular wounds past the invul. 2 regular bolt wounds means .5 wounds, and 1 AP1 means .66 wounds. So in total, your shooting inflicts 8.25 wounds. Congratulations...you've not killed a single model.

Assuming that the nob bikers only assault that one squad, and that the nobs have 4 power klaws plus the warboss's power klaw, they charge with 26 attacks, from the klaws alone. They hit with 2/3 of them, so you're looking at 17-some hits. Wounding on 2+'s means that you've got 14-some wounds. All of which ignore the armor, so the squad is wiped. And the nobs haven't lost a single model.

Now consider that you've got two of those squads running around.

Sisters, are in general, screwed. It's going to take massed meltagun/exorcist fire to take them down. Maybe. Didn't work to well for Scott Simpson at Baltimore, although Parker did make a silly number of cover saves.

Wait. What invulnerable save??? Don;t ork bikes get a 4+ cover save, which is ignored by the fact that it's a flamer?

Pete

If built right, the biker squads will have an armor save, a cover save, an invulnerable save, and Feel No Pain. All this on 2-wound models that each have different equipment so wounds can be spread over the entire squad.

From Turbo boosting or something like a orky force field?

Pete

grotblaster wrote:@Deadshane- If your firedragons are dismounting from their waveserpent and shooting into nobs that just turboboosted, you don't know how to play. After the nobs shoot or assault your screening troops, then you pop out and shoot. 10 shots, 6.66 hits, one wound on warboss, ~3 dead nobs. Do this again with another squad, or just start tank shocking until they run.
Firedragons put a hurting on nob bikers. Played that matchup at FLGS and tournaments and firedragons combined with all the other ap1-2 shooting eldar put out will bring down Nob bikers. They can't spend the game turboboosting and be effective.

I guess the Nob biker doesnt have a chance to burn up the screen (not sure what sort of effective "screen" eldar can run with an army containing 30 mounted firedragons and anything else, but ok) that your serpents are well behind with shooting at max range, check. Charge with a single model into screen? A single choppa nob or Uge choppa nob, maybe not causing a unit to break?....kill the screen off on the eldar turn THEN wait for the Firedragons to get out? Maybe if the screen is this close to the serpents both biker units can maneuver to shoot multiple scorchas at the Serpent? To what end you say? Well, the screen is in the way, and dies. (the only troops that can survive something like that in the eldar arsenal are wraithguard, and if you've got 30 firedragons, I really doubt you've got 20 wraithguard as a screen) You then charge the waveserpent disgorging the firedragons hopefully you managed to surround it killing them all. But whatever, there are several ways to fight this, but really....

its academic.

An army with 30 firedragons isnt viable in tournement when theres a good chance that you'll be looking across the board at armies with 180 orks in them. There's a reason that you dont see 30 firedragons in armies nowadays...its a stupid army idea, unless you're playing 40k to beat Bikernob lists and beat bikernob lists only....even then I dont know that its a sure thing. I dont think we've convinced the OP to go out and pick up 5 boxes of firedragons, so we can just forget about that business.

Centurian99 wrote:

Pdeflorio wrote:Yup. That's all I'm saying is that low ap flamers ignore the 4+ cover save and the feel no pain.

Sure they can still spread out the wounds and such but a SOB dominion squad with 4 flamers and a brazier is going to cause a crap ton of wounds, a lot of them being AP1.

You are talking 15 regular wounds and 5 AP 1 wounds from flamers and another 2 bolter wounds and 1 AP1 out of a 175 point ish unit.

That really good output against a nob squad. If the nobs then charge you, the book of ST Lucius should let you stick around for a bit, and if you have an evicerator you can bump it up to S8 and oblit some orks in the hth phase.

I've had a lot of luck with them against nob bikers.

Pete

Running the numbers you're offering...

5 AP1 wounds, means 3.66 wounds past the invulnerable save. 15 regular wounds means 3.25 regular wounds past the invul. 2 regular bolt wounds means .5 wounds, and 1 AP1 means .66 wounds. So in total, your shooting inflicts 8.25 wounds. Congratulations...you've not killed a single model.

Assuming that the nob bikers only assault that one squad, and that the nobs have 4 power klaws plus the warboss's power klaw, they charge with 26 attacks, from the klaws alone. They hit with 2/3 of them, so you're looking at 17-some hits. Wounding on 2+'s means that you've got 14-some wounds. All of which ignore the armor, so the squad is wiped. And the nobs haven't lost a single model.

Now consider that you've got two of those squads running around.

Sisters, are in general, screwed. It's going to take massed meltagun/exorcist fire to take them down. Maybe. Didn't work to well for Scott Simpson at Baltimore, although Parker did make a silly number of cover saves.

Sisters DO have a hth unit that can do a job on the Nob bikers in HtH....but prolly just a single unit. But its hell on wheels in CC.

6+ Celestians, Imagifer, eviscerator on superior, Cannoness with Eviscerator litanies and 2+ save, Preist with Power Armour and Eviscerator. Inquisitor with a relic and whatever else you want to put on him....all mounted in a rhino.

Whenever the rhino is close to the bikers BEFORE it moves...disembark all troops before the tank moves, make sure the inquisitor is closeby somewhere. Inquisitor pops his relic, squad uses litanies for +2 Str (str 8 eviscerators), use faith for invulnerable save on squad, charge bikernobs with 13 str 8 attacks hitting on 4's with RR's to hit. (also 10 str 5 attacks) Hope the weight of attacks doesnt get through your 7 guys that have 6 3++ saves and one that has 2++, weapons and things in the squad will cause several different batches of saves for even more resiliancy.

MOST IMPORTANTLY!!!

Before you start this assault you MUST ask the ork player if he's heard this joke before....

"A preist, a nun, and a rabbi jump out of a bus....AND KICK YOUR A$$!"

Upgrade one nob to a Painboy to get FNP. Then buy them all Cybork bodies, which gives them a 5+ Invul save. And cybork bodies, iirc, are less than the cost of a slugga boy.

As mentioned above, you've got 9 nobz, the warboss, and the painboy (who, iirc, only has 1 wound). They each can have: 4+ armor or 4+ cover or 5+ invul save (depending on attack form) and a 4+ FNP (if it's not AP 1 or 2 or a power weapon). And the nobz can all have different equipment, so wound are allocated individually, which means if you take 8 wounds, each nob takes one and keeps on trucking.

They're like Death Company, only with power klaws.

Sounds like a great attack from the sisters. But an Ork player who would put his bikes within assault range of a rhino containing that unit (without assaulting it himself first) is a rare thing.

Pdeflorio wrote:From Turbo boosting or something like a orky force field?

Pete

Bikes confer a 4+ armor save and a 4+ cover save (can also turboboost). Cybork Body confers a 5+ Invulnerable save. Painboy confers FNP.

Don't have the Ork codex, but this should be close, if not spot on.

Democratus wrote:Sounds like a great attack from the sisters. But an Ork player who would put his bikes within assault range of a rhino containing that unit (without assaulting it himself first) is a rare thing.

Well, they gotta attack somewhere...or keep getting pelted by 3d6 exorcist shots a turn. I would hope that the SISTERS player would keep the rhino safe behind a wall of other armour or troops as well as to keep them safe.

True. But for the above tactic to work, they would have to roll up and stop right next to that Rhino. It's not like they will be tied up in combat for more than a turn.

Democratus wrote:True. But for the above tactic to work, they would have to roll up and stop right next to that Rhino. It's not like they will be tied up in combat for more than a turn.

15" is a pretty big radius.

2" disembark, 6" move, 6" charge, all with a 1" base.

Its not that unweildy. When you include the footprint of the rhino itself, its pretty big.

I like the celestian unit. Bring along an INQ landraider and you've got a pretty decent option there.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Democratus wrote:True. But for the above tactic to work, they would have to roll up and stop right next to that Rhino. It's not like they will be tied up in combat for more than a turn.

15" is a pretty big radius.

2" disembark, 6" move, 6" charge, all with a 1" base.

Its not that unweildy. When you include the footprint of the rhino itself, its pretty big.

Fair enough. If you can put two of those units in the backfield so that they can counter charge any poor unit of sisters which gets mauled then you may be onto something there.

Are there any other units (besides assault termies) that can be effective in the wide-range counter assault role?

Get the unit to 10 models or less and run a Culexus assassin over there, tank shock their weedy LD7 butts off the board.

Have your Inquisitor cast Purgatus onto the Warboss. LD6 warboss! Return to tankshocking.

By screen, I mean any speedbump unit that isn't the firedragons. Could be pathfinders, guardians, jetbikes, whatever. They will die a horrible death, but you aren't turboboosting if you're killing them. Then the firedragons with a 12" move, 2" disembark, 12" range shoot you. I'm not claiming that 30 firedragons is necessarily a great list, but your claim that a squad all with str. 8 ap 1 shots with an effective 26" range won't put a hurting on nob bikers is wrong. Oh, and 30 fire dragons plus waveserpents with cannon/catapult are about the same cost as one of those units with a warboss.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Sisters DO have a hth unit that can do a job on the Nob bikers in HtH....but prolly just a single unit. But its hell on wheels in CC.

6+ Celestians, Imagifer, eviscerator on superior, Cannoness with Eviscerator litanies and 2+ save, Preist with Power Armour and Eviscerator. Inquisitor with a relic and whatever else you want to put on him....all mounted in a rhino.

Whenever the rhino is close to the bikers BEFORE it moves...disembark all troops before the tank moves, make sure the inquisitor is closeby somewhere. Inquisitor pops his relic, squad uses litanies for +2 Str (str 8 eviscerators), use faith for invulnerable save on squad, charge bikernobs with 13 str 8 attacks hitting on 4's with RR's to hit. (also 10 str 5 attacks) Hope the weight of attacks doesnt get through your 7 guys that have 6 3++ saves and one that has 2++, weapons and things in the squad will cause several different batches of saves for even more resiliancy.

MOST IMPORTANTLY!!!

Before you start this assault you MUST ask the ork player if he's heard this joke before....

"A preist, a nun, and a rabbi jump out of a bus....AND KICK YOUR A$$!"

ummm yea just a thought/note on budgeting your faith here and using the inquisitorial mandate.
1) the mandate does not work when you disembark since you count as moving, you wait till the next turns assault phase to use it since you did no move during the move phase here. Its best to not take this.
2)the cannoness+8 celestians would be better joined by a second cannoness. 3 evisorators in the unit, the second cannoness works out to be better and about the same points as the priest. This second cannoness gives you another litanies of faith also.
3) this is over 500pts in a all your eggs in one basket HQ.
4) If you use the unit you described, you should use your litanies for the invul save and the faith roll for the str. its easier to roll under a 10 to get the +2 strength than over for the invul save.

Moz wrote:Get the unit to 10 models or less and run a Culexus assassin over there, tank shock their weedy LD7 butts off the board.

Have your Inquisitor cast Purgatus onto the Warboss. LD6 warboss! Return to tankshocking.

Good option... but the culexus is pricey

frgsinwntr wrote:ummm yea just a thought/note on budgeting your faith here and using the inquisitorial mandate.
1) the mandate does not work when you disembark since you count as moving, you wait till the next turns assault phase to use it since you did no move during the move phase here. Its best to not take this.

Maybe I didnt make it clear but the Inquisitor is totally optional, and is seperate from the squad....he just tags along safely behind the rhino if possible, he isnt really that important to the plan.

frgsinwntr wrote:
2)the cannoness+8 celestians would be better joined by a second cannoness. 3 evisorators in the unit, the second cannoness works out to be better and about the same points as the priest. This second cannoness gives you another litanies of faith also.

another cannoness INSTEAD of the priest? Absolutly incorrect, the preist is a must have in this unit as he allows for all of the Re-rolls to hit. Maybe another cannoness instead of the Inquisitor, I can see that, but you HAVE to have the priest for this unit to be as devestating as possible.

frgsinwntr wrote:
3) this is over 500pts in a all your eggs in one basket HQ.

it is what it is, 9 nob bikers and a warboss isnt cheap either, as a matter of fact, most of the time its more than this unit....and this unit can route it...fairly easily.

frgsinwntr wrote:
4) If you use the unit you described, you should use your litanies for the invul save and the faith roll for the str. its easier to roll under a 10 to get the +2 strength than over for the invul save.

The STR roll is more important to get off, thats why you use litanies for that. If you're hitting with str 6 eviscerators, the nobs wont insta-die. each hit and wound can count as two wounds toward combat res if its unsaved. If you dont get your invulnerable off, you'll likely die, but so what, you just took LOTS of bikers with you.

No, the str is more important to get off and you NEED the litanies to pull IT off, not the invuln.

Democratus wrote:
Are there any other units (besides assault termies) that can be effective in the wide-range counter assault role?

Sure...but they're all extremely specialized. There's two considerations.

#1 - S8 attacks that ignore armor (i.e. or some other way to autokill models to prevent spreading wounds around, and ignoring armor so that they don't get a FNP save)
#2 - Surviving ~20 power klaw attacks.

Assault terminators do it through though massed storm shields and thunder hammers. 3++ save and S8 power attacks will do a number on the nob. Most armies can do something...but for a lot of armies, it takes some silly, silly builds to do so. For example:

Karandas, large squad of warlocks. Fortune the unit, then get the assault. Warlocks soak wounds while Karandas gets 8 S8 attacks on the charge (7 if charged) at WS7. Eldar should win by combat res...eventually.

Abaddon, with a retinue of some sort to soak wounds. 6-10 S8 attacks at I6 will do a number, and help reduce casualties.

Genestealers with implant attack (and feeder tendrils, natch). Full squad of 12 charging is 36 attacks. 32 hits, 5.33 rends, 5.33 normal wounds. After saves, that's 3.5 wounds from the rending, and 1.33 wounds from the non-rending. So about 5 models dead. Assuming that all the remaining attacks are power fists, including the warboss, their counter-attack has a good chance of wiping the squad, but if they don't the genestealers win on combat res (as each wound counts as two), and the nob squad is pretty much crippled. A broodlord/genestealer combo does the trick as well, but costs silly points (broodlord with feeder tendrils, genestealers with acid maw, everything with implant).

Hive Tyrant /w implant, toxic miasma, +1 WS, scytals, 3 guard with implant. Implant attack is actually huge.

Multiple Carnifexes /w crushing claws and tusks.

I am planning to punk them out with two squads of five BA VAS... each squad has 3x power fist and they are led by Dante. The meltas fire for the insta kills prior to the charge then suck up any non power klaw attacks. Six power fists, each with four attacks and rerolls... All nobs will die.

G

FNP doesnt work against double strength weaponry right? For nids all i can say is either the genestealer approach or lots of BS's on elite fexes (combined with VC's on anything else). Of course if they turbo boost on turn 1 shooting becomes a bit of a liability.

With the tyrant and guard also go for lashwhips. Take em down by 1, 2 or even 3 attacks each. Suddenly that bad-ass unit aint so bad-ass!

I have heaRd that nob bikers ride rough shod over lash spam. Speed kills.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I am planning to punk them out with two squads of five BA VAS... each squad has 3x power fist and they are led by Dante. The meltas fire for the insta kills prior to the charge then suck up any non power klaw attacks. Six power fists, each with four attacks and rerolls... All nobs will die.

G

Dante + those two squads - about 700 points. Comparable to one of the nob biker squads. (actually a bit cheaper). If they're shooting and getting the charge, the bikers likely turbo-boosted the turn before, or have just raped the other units in your army. To be f

1 BS5 melta, 4 BS4 meltas. 3.5 hits, 2.91 wounds. Cover saves let 1.45 through. We'll be generous and say 2. Let's say they're all assigned to the regular dudes. 2 bikers killed. Bolt pistols have negligible effects - 6 shots, 4 hits, 1.33 wounds, 33% chance of getting a wound. 8 bikers left, with 4 klaws.

Blood angels charge (one squad). Dante gets 6 attacks, hits with 4, wounds with 2, let's say that the orks fail both saves. 4 assault marines at I5, 12 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds, .75 wounds past the save, so we'll round up to 1.

3 wounds total, 8 bikers left.
At I3, 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 wounds, we'll say one failed save.

4 nobs with power klaws = 12 attacks. 6 hits, 5 wounds.
Warboss with Klaw = 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 2.22 wounds. We'll round down. 8 total wounds.

6 power fist VAM = 18 attacks, 9 hits, 7.5 wounds, 2.5 saves, so 5 nobs killed.

Then the other squad charges in and all three squads are dead. Now, if the orks get the charge...all blood angels die.

This assumes a relatively "nice" nob squad with only 4 power klaws. Add in 2 more (which I've seen) or give the orks the charge, and the BA's are wiped.

Deadshane1 wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:ummm yea just a thought/note on budgeting your faith here and using the inquisitorial mandate.
1) the mandate does not work when you disembark since you count as moving, you wait till the next turns assault phase to use it since you did no move during the move phase here. Its best to not take this.

Maybe I didnt make it clear but the Inquisitor is totally optional, and is seperate from the squad....he just tags along safely behind the rhino if possible, he isnt really that important to the plan.

frgsinwntr wrote:
2)the cannoness+8 celestians would be better joined by a second cannoness. 3 evisorators in the unit, the second cannoness works out to be better and about the same points as the priest. This second cannoness gives you another litanies of faith also.

another cannoness INSTEAD of the priest? Absolutly incorrect, the preist is a must have in this unit as he allows for all of the Re-rolls to hit. Maybe another cannoness instead of the Inquisitor, I can see that, but you HAVE to have the priest for this unit to be as devestating as possible.

frgsinwntr wrote:
3) this is over 500pts in a all your eggs in one basket HQ.

it is what it is, 9 nob bikers and a warboss isnt cheap either, as a matter of fact, most of the time its more than this unit....and this unit can route it...fairly easily.

frgsinwntr wrote:
4) If you use the unit you described, you should use your litanies for the invul save and the faith roll for the str. its easier to roll under a 10 to get the +2 strength than over for the invul save.

The STR roll is more important to get off, thats why you use litanies for that. If you're hitting with str 6 eviscerators, the nobs wont insta-die. each hit and wound can count as two wounds toward combat res if its unsaved. If you dont get your invulnerable off, you'll likely die, but so what, you just took LOTS of bikers with you.

No, the str is more important to get off and you NEED the litanies to pull IT off, not the invuln.

I'll concede these points since I am exhuasted and you're right

BUT you don't want a rhino as was mentioned.... you want to be able to assault when you choose... such as possibly a land raider?

Centurian remember that Dante confers preferred enemy versus all races...

6x VAS power fist attacks on the charge with reroll equals:

6x4 hits = 24 hits/ 12 hit plus 6 more hits for the reroll -> 18 hits landed equals 15 insta-kill wounds... 2/3 get through the cybork body which is 12 dead. Also remember that Dante also drops the enemy WS by -1 so the nobs are only hitting back on 4+. That pretty much guarantees one dead unit.

The next part of the equation is how to kill the second nob biker squad. I have a theory and will report the results after play testing it this weekend. A big part of it is cat and mouse. I will have to see how it plays out. My friend I am playing is no slouch either.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Centurian remember that Dante confers preferred enemy versus all races...

6x VAS power fist attacks on the charge with reroll equals:

6x4 hits = 24 hits/ 12 hit plus 6 more hits for the reroll -> 18 hits landed equals 15 insta-kill wounds... 2/3 get through the cybork body which is 12 dead. Also remember that Dante also drops the enemy WS by -1 so the nobs are only hitting back on 4+. That pretty much guarantees one dead unit.

The next part of the equation is how to kill the second nob biker squad. I have a theory and will report the results after play testing it this weekend. A big part of it is cat and mouse. I will have to see how it plays out. My friend I am playing is no slouch either.

G

Remembered the -1 WS, but forgot preferred enemy. I think you miscalculated the number of attacks, though. You only get three attacks/model on the charge, so you only get 18 attacks. 2 attacks +1 for charging, right?

Still probably enough to wipe the squad, sans Warboss, though. Base T5 is a PITA. But the squads are still crippled, and if Dante was in base with a klaw, he's likely dead.

I keep forgetting no more+1 attack for power fist.

G

Deadshane1 wrote:@ storm knight...you make me laugh.

I dunno where you've been playing but I play Grey Knights as well and am here to tell you they're screwed against double Nob biker lists.

I dont think I need to further embellish what others have already said, you're already wrong on the incinerator point. Its nowhere NEAR as good as you think and anything else Knights can throw at the bikernobs shooty-wise will be inneffectual due to the multi-layer defenses with multiple wounds per model.

roll it out a couple of times if you dont beleive me.

GM and 6 terminators charging out of a land raider, fine, benefit of the doubt you get to charge.

Charging a warboss with claw on bike, and 9 Nobs on Warbikes 4-5 of which have claws, every single one a seperate batch for rolling saves....

....and then there is a second identical unit closeby in support of the first one ready to kill whatever you didnt lose against the first.

Yes, Grey Knights are screwed vs. bikernobs. One of the best current lists against a list widely regarded as the worst....and your telling us that they have a chance.

Yea.

No, I'm not interested in the bridge, thank you.

What exactly are you emplying? pfff your rude. This is basically what your saying, You make me laugh, your screwed, your wrong and you play the the worst army.
Who the **** do you think you are?! Aye? Not exactly friendly!
I'm not even going to put up the mathhammer up here but it's certainly more thought out than other peoples mathammer on GKT.

Is the painboy count as IC or UC?

Grey Knights are commonly regarded as the "worst" army because they're so expensive that it's virtually impossible to field enough models to be competitive. Add to that their horrible anti-vehicle options and you've got a very heavily handicapped list.

Beautiful army, awesome background material, not good on the field of battle.

Well obviously it's going to be harder, but there always means to maximise strengths and minimize weakneses.
Well actually I feel less handicapped than Space Marines, so how is that a handicap.
If I have forceweapons per codex and ignore eternal warrior, and my LRC moves 12" and fires 3 weapon systems...

at least your loyal to your army, hehehe. maybe you have weak competition that has given your army an inflated sense of competitiveness? Like the first time you tried piloting a plane against a clan in BF 1942, or played Age of Empires 2 online... ah the good days.

No one here thinks I'm biased against Grey Knights - heck, Scott Simpson and I took a GK/Sisters combo to the Doubles in Baltimore and won.

But the only way for a GKT squad to take on the nob bikerz is with the entire squad armed with TH/SS. Even then, you're talking a near-mutual-death situation.

Assume that the GK's are led by a GM, and that they charge out of a Land Raider Crusader.

Lets also Assume that the Nobz have 5 power klaws, plus the warboss.

Finally, lets assume that the GKT's get the charge, that the GM makes base with the warboss, and the squad flame first with two incinerators that hit 5 bikers each.
10 hits, 5 wounds, 2.5 FNP. We'll be generous and say three wounds, all spread onto different models.

Situation 1: GKTs with NFW.
GM kills the warboss.
7 GKTs = 21 attacks (7x3) , 10.5 hits (WS5 v WS5), 7 wounds (S6 v T5), ~5 wounds (after 5+ inv).
Klaws - 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 6.25 wounds, ~4 past the invulnerable saves.
Regular attacks - 16 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds. Combat res is close enough that Orks probably don't lose, as they've lost 5 wounds, but have only lost the warboss. Next round, all GKTs die.

Situation 2: GKTs /w TH/SS
GM kills the warboss.
Orks do same damage - 5 models.
GKTs have 21 attacks, hit 10.5, wound 8.75, 5.83 past the inv save - lets say 6. So orks lose 7 bikers (including the warboss), and probably run from close combat. But there are still only 3 Terminators (including the GM) left, so the next squad of bikerz comes in and easily finishes off the squad.

Bill, what are the points differences between the two units?

The Ork nobs + warboss vs the GKTs +GM...

734pt unit: Land Raider Crusader + GM (Incinerator+Hammerhand) + Retinue Grey Knight Terminators (6)
I'm not too accurate with my mathammer, but i've added the parts you forgot.

Hurricane Boltguns (rapid fire) = 12
11 hit, 4 wound (just below), 1.333 failed saves (3+ I believe), 0.6666 wounds
Multi Melta Machine spirit
0.666 hit, 0.555 wound, 0.15 failed save? 0.3 wounds (instant death x2)

5 Stormbolter (10)
5 Hit, 1.75 wound, 0.6 failed save, 0.3 failed feel no pain

2 Incinerator
12 hit (due to deployment from LRC) 6 wound, 3 failed FNP saves = 3 wounds

GM kills Warboss
Then 6 GKT 18 attacks
9 hit, 6 wound, 4 unsaved wounds

4+3+0.3+0.3+0.66=8.26 + Warboss dead. GrandMaster
Depending on how many wounds Forceweapon death counts for in CC, it'll be 5 or 7 wounds in CC vs Orks mathammer of 4-5wounds.
Next turn I die after killing another bike... Hmm if only the LRC could join CC... ok Your right GKT won't beat Ork bikers, and ork bikers are a bigger bully than me but how many points is a unit of Warboss bikers?

My rough math shows the biker nobs to be 700-800pts depending on how many PKs you want.

storm knight wrote:734pt unit: Land Raider Crusader + GM (Incinerator+Hammerhand) + Retinue Grey Knight Terminators (6)
I'm not too accurate with my mathammer, but i've added the parts you forgot.

Hurricane Boltguns (rapid fire) = 12
11 hit, 4 wound (just below), 1.333 failed saves (3+ I believe), 0.6666 wounds
Multi Melta Machine spirit
0.666 hit, 0.555 wound, 0.15 failed save? 0.3 wounds (instant death x2)

5 Stormbolter (10)
5 Hit, 1.75 wound, 0.6 failed save, 0.3 failed feel no pain

2 Incinerator
12 hit (due to deployment from LRC) 6 wound, 3 failed FNP saves = 3 wounds

GM kills Warboss
Then 6 GKT 18 attacks
9 hit, 6 wound, 4 unsaved wounds

4+3+0.3+0.3+0.66=8.26 + Warboss dead. GrandMaster
Depending on how many wounds Forceweapon death counts for in CC, it'll be 5 or 7 wounds in CC vs Orks mathammer of 4-5wounds.
Next turn I die after killing another bike... Hmm if only the LRC could join CC... ok Your right GKT won't beat Ork bikers, and ork bikers are a bigger bully than me but how many points is a unit of Warboss bikers?

MM = .55 to wound? str 8 vs toughness 6?

storm knight wrote:734pt unit: Land Raider Crusader + GM (Incinerator+Hammerhand) + Retinue Grey Knight Terminators (6)
I'm not too accurate with my mathammer, but i've added the parts you forgot.

Hurricane Boltguns (rapid fire) = 12
11 hit, 4 wound (just below), 1.333 failed saves (3+ I believe), 0.6666 wounds
Multi Melta Machine spirit
0.666 hit, 0.555 wound, 0.15 failed save? 0.3 wounds (instant death x2)

5 Stormbolter (10)
5 Hit, 1.75 wound, 0.6 failed save, 0.3 failed feel no pain

2 Incinerator
12 hit (due to deployment from LRC) 6 wound, 3 failed FNP saves = 3 wounds

GM kills Warboss
Then 6 GKT 18 attacks
9 hit, 6 wound, 4 unsaved wounds

4+3+0.3+0.3+0.66=8.26 + Warboss dead. GrandMaster
Depending on how many wounds Forceweapon death counts for in CC, it'll be 5 or 7 wounds in CC vs Orks mathammer of 4-5wounds.
Next turn I die after killing another bike... Hmm if only the LRC could join CC... ok Your right GKT won't beat Ork bikers, and ork bikers are a bigger bully than me but how many points is a unit of Warboss bikers?

I could disagree with some of your numbers, but the important one - if you're machine spiriting the multi-melta, you get 1/3 of a chance to hit, most likely followed by either a 5+ inv or a 3+ cover save. Assuming we're talking a 3+ cover save (since if we're talking the 5+ save, your LRC was most likely just swamped with 21 S9/S10 power fist attacks), effectively, you can't count on the LRC to do anything. Either way, your NFM GKT's just won the combat by 1-3 wounds - not really enough to break the squad reliably, and to do that they lost almost 2/3 of their models.

I was generous, by the way, in allowing your GM to get in base with the Warboss. if he doesn't the warboss accounts for another 2-3 kills by himself (as he's WS6 with the biker nobz), and the squad almost certainly doesn't break.

760 points is the "nice" nob biker mob, with 10 models (including warboss and painboss), 4 power klaws (+1 on the warboss), cybork body, waagh banner, and every model being different.

GK Crusader hits with its normal BS. according to the FAQ

frgsinwntr wrote:GK Crusader hits with its normal BS. according to the FAQ

Hadn't noticed that. Thanks.

And how many of these anti-nob biker tactics work against other Take All Comers opponents?

whitedragon wrote:And how many of these anti-nob biker tactics work against other Take All Comers opponents?

Depends on the army.

And how many of these anti-nob biker tactics work against other Take All Comers opponents?

Truth be told, most of these options don't hold up much against the standard tournament opponents. They are meta-gaming to go against the top dog when the top dog is designed to take on everything. I play Daemons and flamers will be very spotty against Nob Bikers. The nob biker's footprint means that you hit fewer than an optimal amount and the speed of Nobs makes it hard to maneuver to flame them without getting assaulted/shot and wiped off of the table, even with a 4++.

Thunderhammer spam won't work well enough because you don't have the initiative over the powerclaws. In order to get the charge off you need to be in a LR and if that happens, you don't have the numbers to overwhelm the bikers. 3++ is good but not godly versus the number of 3+ to hit 2+ to wound PKs. This would probably just end up in both of them wiping each other out which is a win for SM. Now for the second squad...and the still living Warboss.

For optimal performance you need to have CC attacks (shooting even in large amounts is spotty at best because of 3+cover) that are str8+, strike at init higher than 1, good weapon skill (6WS+ with a reroll if at all possible), a large number of attacks (10+ preferred), and are hopefully resilient enough to take the attacks back from whatever lives so you can do it again to the second squad. In order to get the charge off you need to have high speed.

Skarbrand and a BT.

Dual charge, high maneuverability models. WS 10 so they hit on 3s with a reroll and between the two they will have 13 attacks that instakill with a Wind of Chaos in the shooting before the charge. This will cause between 6 and 7 unsaved wounds in CC that take a nob a wound. 4++ for the Daemons for the return swings on top of taking 4s RR'd to hit (5s RR'd if they killed off the Waagh Banner) and 2s to wound on whatever didn't die. Average return is a few wounds to the Daemons (maybe one even dies). If you add in anything else (3 DPs with Noxious Touch and Wings) then the Nobs will be wiped out to the warboss by 18inch range MC spam. Warboss loses by 10+ wounds (2 per dead nob) and even one surviving Greater Daemon and the nobs autobreak and get chased down by init 5 models or escorted off of the board. If they don't successfully pick apart the daemons on the turn they deepstrike it's a rough rough battle.

My new BA list put a big dent in them and I had very poor dice to boot. I next played a SW drop pod army and shred them.

G

whitedragon wrote:And how many of these anti-nob biker tactics work against other Take All Comers opponents?

Things tooled to handle the nob bikes tend to handle hordes poorly. I think this is largely why the list had the chance to be so successful in Baltimore; people are tooling for hordes and here comes a list that handles hordes fine and benefits from the metagame shift nicely.

Moz wrote:

whitedragon wrote:And how many of these anti-nob biker tactics work against other Take All Comers opponents?

Things tooled to handle the nob bikes tend to handle hordes poorly. I think this is largely why the list had the chance to be so successful in Baltimore; people are tooling for hordes and here comes a list that handles hordes fine and benefits from the metagame shift nicely.

Slight disagreement. Basically, it boils down to this:

If your list is tooled to handle the nob bikerz in assault, you'll probably do okay against hordes. Because surviving assault vs the nob bikerz means you can do some pretty extreme things and survive some pretty extreme situations.

If your list is tooled to deal with nob bikerz through shooting, (which is extremely tough to do), you're probably screwed.

I agree with Centurian. Dealing with Bikers in HtH can translate to hordes. My own experience is with Ironclads. They will tear through Nob Bikers and they will tie up and eventually take down 30 Ork troops.

How about 8 Bloodcrushers and Kairos Fateweaver for close to the same amount of points?

The blood crushers with fateweaver can take out the nob biker list.

G

Blood Crushers and Kairos 'might' take out the biker list. If Kairos is in range of the bloodcrushers, then he can get peppered by dakkaguns that wound on 4+ and with 30-60 twin linked shots coming downrange, they might even be able to force him to pop.

Bloodcrushers will only hit and wound on a 4+ if they don't get the charge off and with them only moving 6 inches a turn, you have the chance of the rest of your army getting wiped out by the bikers while they skirt around your bloodcrushers. You need more speed.

What about a 5man harlie squad, shadowseer + troupe master with 4 kisses and Yuriel. As theres only 8 wounds on that side (with inv sv's) could they score and wound more than they'd suffer? My idea is a high model/wounding ability ratio (assuming atleast one survives to run them all down!)

you guys are tossing out units... what we need are tactics.

3 things you can do

1)"Rhino wall" and hope to out shoot them with ranged str 8+ weapons

2)out assault the unit

3)attrition.

I believe these are what I came up with before I played against moz at the GT. The easiest to do is the rhino wall. But looking at the results I think attrition was the way to go. The Nob bikers can only kill one unit a turn if you make them make hard choices. Basically for my army I should have ran a rhino out to be a sacrafice. this rhino would have been in the middle of the table, so they would need to stop and deal with the stuff inside or ignore it and get shot. I think losing one unit a turn is the way to go as you whittle the orks down.

Blood Crushers can beat the snot out of the nob bikers and I have seen it done.

G

Fire prisms, two of em. Linkem and nuke a blast's worth.. Nigh on everything gets a cover save anyways in 5th

A biked farseer with mindwar has an effective 30' mindwar range and will nuke the poor painboys mind as it uses the models own LD.

An idea would be to have some terrain between that farseer and the nobz when the powers used to force them to make those dangerous terrain tests.

The above guts a nob biker squad quite well and its fairly verstile (Farseer biker goes with x, two fire prisms = win)

Lemartes wrote:How about 8 Bloodcrushers and Kairos Fateweaver for close to the same amount of points?

In that situation, you almost have to assume that the bloodcrushers are getting charged. If fateweaver's close enough to give the re-roll, he's also within charge range. Interesting situation.

Lets go with the same 4 power klaw, 8 nob + painboy + warboss /w klaw we've been using.

Shooting phase - nobz fire. For simplicity, 10 twin-linked dakkaguns (as opposed to the myriad kombiweapons the nobz have to make them all different)

30 shots, 16.6 hits, 8.3 wounds, .92 failed saves. We'll give them one wound.

Charging in - 1 nob w/o klaw hits fateweaver, everything else hits bloodcrushers. bloodcrushers get 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 4 failed saves. Fateweaver gets 2 attacks, hits 1, wounds .5, .3 failed save, so we'll say he doesn't wound.

Nobs w/o PK attack - 4 on fateweaver, 2 hit, 1 wound...if fateweaver fails this, the Daemons just pack up and go home.
12 on bloodcrushers, 6 hit, 2 wound...pretty much same thing. Painboyz attacks similarly useless.

Powerklaw attacks:
16 nob attacks, 8 hit, 6.66 wounds, 2.96 past the save - we'll round up to 3, for 4 total wounds so far. No models removed from either side yet.
5 boss attacks, 3.33 hits, 2.78 wounds, 1.23 past the save - round down to 1, for 5 total wounds so far. First bloodcrusher removed.

Drawn combat, push to second round.

Interesting. Looks like fateweaver's saving the bloodcrushers butts. Next round, bloodcrushers are down to 21 attacks, and have no more expendable wounds. But after a long-drawn out combat, the bloodcrushers will win, as long as fateweaver's alive.

Lets look at it another way.

Orks shoot fateweaver. 16.6 hits, 8.3 wounds, 1 failed save. Charge in on fateweaver alone - 20 regular attacks, 21 power klaw attacks, and 4 urty syringe attacks. 14.44 wounds. Odds are in the Orks favor that Fateweaver fails both remaining saves and dies.

Bloodcrushers charge. 32 attacks, 16 hits, 10.66 wounds, 7.11 failed saves. No orks removed.

Ignoring the regular nobs+painboss...
Nob PKs = 12 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 3 failed saves.
Warboss PK = 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 2.21 wounds, 2 failed saves.

If the orks don't break from combat res, I think Orks win this one - pyrhically, but its a win. Meanwhile the other nob biker squad is busy destroying the rest of the Daemon force.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Blood Crushers can beat the snot out of the nob bikers and I have seen it done.

G

Only if they don't have sufficient power klaws.

You know, I kinda ragged on Neil at Baltimore for taking 6 power klaws in his nob bikerz. But running these numbers the past few days, I think I underestimated his theory-hammer-fu.

frgsinwntr wrote:you guys are tossing out units... what we need are tactics.

3 things you can do

1)"Rhino wall" and hope to out shoot them with ranged str 8+ weapons

Actually, if you're planning to use shooting, you need to use massed AP1-2 weaponry or S10 weaponry. Else you're planning on getting through a 3+ cover save from turbo-boosting and a 4+ FNP save. And if you're weapon isn't S10, you're not removing models.

And if you do the rhino wall to block off a corner of the board...you've totally restricted your maneuvering. Congratulations...you've just conceded any objective-based mission. And if its a kill-point mission...heck, the bikers charge all your rhinos at once and probably kill them.

frgsinwntr wrote:
2)out assault the unit

That's what we're working on coming up with...the sad fact is that there are very few "normal" units out there that can hope to do so.

frgsinwntr wrote:
3)attrition.

Sounds good in theory...but there's two major problems with it. First, you've only got so many turns to do so, and you're essentially trading space for time...so you're conceding objective missions. Or you're essentially feeding kill points to the ork player. Either way, its winning tactics, but losing strategy.

Second, what are you doing about the 2nd biker squad that's running around?

Razerous wrote:Fire prisms, two of em. Linkem and nuke a blast's worth.. Nigh on everything gets a cover save anyways in 5th

A biked farseer with mindwar has an effective 30' mindwar range and will nuke the poor painboys mind as it uses the models own LD.

An idea would be to have some terrain between that farseer and the nobz when the powers used to force them to make those dangerous terrain tests.

The above guts a nob biker squad quite well and its fairly verstile (Farseer biker goes with x, two fire prisms = win)

Fire Prisms = Epic Fail. 3+ cover save. Equals 1-2 dead nobz, assuming your opponent isn't a moron and spreads out so you only get 4-5 nobz under the template.

Farseer - seems like a good idea, but the range thing means that the next turn, your farseer probably dies.

Eldar's best counter seems to be in either massed fire dragons (which cripples them against hordes), or a seriously wacked-out combined charge.

The most standard one I can think of is tossing a pair of Wraithlords with wraithswords, plus a large body of something to soak wounds up, into the combat. THe ridiculous one involves Karandas and fortuned warlocks (and actually isn't my idea, but something the Toledo boys came up with).

By the way, the best, most strategery-wise way I've seen nob bikers dealt with, involved what Marc Parker described as "the most skillful use of lash he's ever seen" or something like that. Mike Mutscheller, used his dual lashes to bring a 30-man boyz squad into a nice conga-line formation that just reached where the nob bikerz had turbo-boosted to - and then proceeded to charge EVERYTHING he had into a massive, multi-unit assault. IIRC, he threw a lash prince, a lash sorcerer, 30 CSMs, and 6 obliterators into an assault. He basically sacrificed his basic CSM squads to soak powerklaws, while his oblits auto-killed nobs, and his CSMs with the Icon of Khorne murdered regular boyz.

The wound totals on each side were pretty ridiculous, from what I understand...but even with each regular CSM squad essentially wiped out, the nob bikerz were needing snake eyes not to run from combat.

As an ork player who runs the nob squad of death, i can tell you my biggest bane is carnifexs with barbed stranglers, three of them with TL stranglers are roughly half the cost of the biker nobz, they're a sure bet. The strength 8 means they're gonna instant death me, and with feel no pain negated i'm only a +4 cover save away from losing a 70 pt model.

Daggermaw wrote:As an ork player who runs the nob squad of death, i can tell you my biggest bane is carnifexs with barbed stranglers, three of them with TL stranglers are roughly half the cost of the biker nobz, they're a sure bet. The strength 8 means they're gonna instant death me, and with feel no pain negated i'm only a +4 cover save away from losing a 70 pt model.

Out of curiosity, how are barbed stranglers negating FNP?

Wounds that are double the toughness of the model negate FNP. Base toughness of a Nob is 4. The 5 is through the bike and it doesn't count for FNP and Instakill.

Thus Str 8 attacks take FNP and the 2 wounds out of the equation.

Daggermaw wrote:As an ork player who runs the nob squad of death, i can tell you my biggest bane is carnifexs with barbed stranglers, three of them with TL stranglers are roughly half the cost of the biker nobz, they're a sure bet. The strength 8 means they're gonna instant death me, and with feel no pain negated i'm only a +4 cover save away from losing a 70 pt model.

See Fire Prism quote above. Spread out, turboboost for 3+ cover save, and then combined charge a few carnifexes. Put a barbed strangler wound against the warboss too, because he can use his FNP.

Oh ofcourse.. bikes T dont count. Fire prisms arent epic fail as each ones focoused blast will do its points cost per shot. Thier fast enough to keep away from le-bikes combined with somthing to stand there and get in the way.

That and using a farseer, decently placed, to gut the painboy - which is really a given concidering its terrible LD. It just needs survive.

How about a banshee squad with both powers - that many power attacks, doomed from the good ol farseer (assume its her bodyguard) wounds on a re-roll of 6. . .

5- 6 wounds per 10 harlie squad on a doomed nob bikers. Never mind.

Just to throw this out there...

What about DH incinerators? S5 templates (ignore saves) AP4 (Nob armor goes goodbye) and ignore sinvulnerable saves... Though i don't think FNP is an invulnerable save. So a 4+ save versus all that holy flame goodness. You can get 4 incinerators in a purgation squad and then attach Elite Inquisitors that are naked but for an incinerator for 40 points. The current load out I am looking at is 6 incinerators in a landraider.

ender502

Still get FNP as its not ap1/2 or a weapon that would never allow an armour save.

Razerous wrote:Still get FNP as its not ap1/2 or a weapon that would never allow an armour save.

Certainly better than the multiple saves that other weapons allow....and at a cheaper price and can hit multiple opponents. Most AP1 or 2 weapons allow the cover save...and are rather pricey or just too few.

If price and sanity were no object I could get..... I could get 8 incinerators in a LR for 645 points. But I think 6 oughtta do it.

ender502

Shaggoth wrote:Wounds that are double the toughness of the model negate FNP. Base toughness of a Nob is 4. The 5 is through the bike and it doesn't count for FNP and Instakill.

Thus Str 8 attacks take FNP and the 2 wounds out of the equation.

Thanks. For some reason I read it wrong. (probably because the only stuff I run with FNP are nurgle daemons)

A good player can minimize the number of template weapons that can hit a unit, doubly so on models with cavalry bases or larger and even more than that on models that can move 12-24 a turn.

You are only likely to get maybe 4-5 with each template given optimal placement and the right move distance. Things being sub optimal you would only hit 3ish guys per template (maybe less). Even if the 6 templates get 5 each, you would hit 30 times, wound 15, they would FNP 7.5 and would lose 0-1 actual model.

On a more realistic 18 hits, 9 wounds, 4.5 saved.

Certainly better than the multiple saves that other weapons allow...

This is a bit misleading. They only get two saves: 4+ armor or 4+ cover or 3+ turboboost and 4+ FNP

Bypassing the FNP is roughly equivalent to bypassing all of the other 3.

Dark Angels Librarian, you need to roll well but with Hellfire you can get a S8 AP1/2 Template weapon. That will ignore all of the nobs saves and instant-kill them to boot.

Of course you need to roll a 10+ on 2D6 and a 1 or 2 on D6...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

If you were rolling DH/WH you could use a Calidus to pop next to nobs who were grouped tightly (due to just ending combat perhaps) and light them up with the Neural Shredder.
Str8 to insta-kill, AP1 to ignore armor/FNP, template to ignore cover, against a Ld of 7 per model so you wound on 3+.
Then charge in with your C'Tan blade, and really hope you manage to live through the assault phase

Hopefully, if you have some Exorcists to soften them up as well, there are not too many to assault.

Three squads of howling banshees vs a squad of nobz. Thier at risk of getting shot at but putting in a farseer with mindwar (and fortune/doom) to force the bikers to either stay away (out of range of thier dakka and mindwar) or charge.

Granted they will generally get wiped - the counter-assualting rule means thier either assualt/get assualted and do the same amount of damager. Over 2-3 squads, is it enough?

along the DH/WH train of thought, what about two jumping cannonesses with master crafted evicerators, 2+ saves and those cloaks of no instant death. Have them jump in and activate save=invulnerable. Don't have the book with me so I may be way off base.

Ozymandias wrote:Dark Angels Librarian, you need to roll well but with Hellfire you can get a S8 AP1/2 Template weapon. That will ignore all of the nobs saves and instant-kill them to boot.

Of course you need to roll a 10+ on 2D6 and a 1 or 2 on D6...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

DA librarian in terminator armor deep strikes beside nobs, lays down the template and smokes them!



G

Wehrkind wrote:If you were rolling DH/WH you could use a Calidus to pop next to nobs who were grouped tightly (due to just ending combat perhaps) and light them up with the Neural Shredder.
Str8 to insta-kill, AP1 to ignore armor/FNP, template to ignore cover, against a Ld of 7 per model so you wound on 3+.
Then charge in with your C'Tan blade, and really hope you manage to live through the assault phase

Hopefully, if you have some Exorcists to soften them up as well, there are not too many to assault.

Neural Shredder doesn't instakill, because it goes S8 v LD7.

Exorcists do the job nicely, though, if you can get past the cover save. Speedbumps are the order of the day.

Razerous wrote:Three squads of howling banshees vs a squad of nobz. Thier at risk of getting shot at but putting in a farseer with mindwar (and fortune/doom) to force the bikers to either stay away (out of range of thier dakka and mindwar) or charge.

Granted they will generally get wiped - the counter-assualting rule means thier either assualt/get assualted and do the same amount of damager. Over 2-3 squads, is it enough?

3 squads of banshees...not enough, I think. 81 attacks, ~41 hits, ~7 wounds, ~5 failed saves. Exarchs add in another 9 S5 attacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 wounds, 1.5 failed save - so ~7 failed saves. No nobs killed.

Nobz strike back and 20 regular attacks and 16 power fist attacks, hitting on 3s. So ~13 regular hits, and ~11 power fist hits. ~8 regular wounds and ~9 power fist wounds. 4 failed saves, and 13 banshees die. Then they're either taking LD tests at a -6, or they're taking 6 more saves. With only 11 banshees left, I think they're toast.

If the nobz are doomed, they take a bit more wounds, but the powerklaws remain viable. Banshees are crippled, but orks probably break and run. Of course, all this assumes that the banshees get the charge. I find that doubtful, unless the Eldar have sacrificed some major units to draw in the nobz.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:along the DH/WH train of thought, what about two jumping cannonesses with master crafted evicerators, 2+ saves and those cloaks of no instant death. Have them jump in and activate save=invulnerable. Don't have the book with me so I may be way off base.

Cannonnessses need to activate +2S, not inv. save. They need the S8 attacks. Didn't Shane write up something about this?

spacemarines:
typhoon speeders: 2x3 maybe with multimeltas will shoot can stay out of bikers reach (48") and do some major damage 2x6 s8 shots each turn one goes to the w.boss but the leftover shots kill 2-3 nobs per turn/per unit. you can whittel them down nicely and block them with rhinos or feed them with wayblocking marines.

another unit is the 440pts double cyclonelauncher termisquad. if the nobs stay away good for the marines and the nobs eat 4 s8 shots each turn. if they charge, they face 18 s8 attacks (maybe someone will do the math...).

thunderfirecannons for "dtt" with 60" range is an option too.

all 3 can handle horde armys aswell and can be combined ^^.

greetings Badger

My main idea with the banshee mob is 2-3 fairly seperate units with either one or two farseers incl. If a squad does charge multiple units then it would get ganked twice as hard as banshees can do that & theres always the chance of them failing the morale save from the war-shout- which would improve things a fair bit.

I do agree the banshees will die. But point for points here.

What underpins all of this is the farseer uses mindwar to pick out first the painboy and then nobs with powerclaws (I assume both have fairly low base stat LD) which would either force the squad to pull back (18' mindwar range/18' dakka bike gun range, right?) or to go in for a shoot/charge. If they stay at range & simple shoot then the H/B should weather it well enough (A few would live..Possible) ready to allow the farseer to mindwar again.

As for a shoot/charge or just a charge then..well, banshees die but inflict a reasonable amount of wounds. Stagger a few units like this (1 farseer bloc per nobz unit) with either a third HB squad or another elite CC unit.. add in the rest of the army for shooty goodness, pathfinders, fire prisms.. I dont think im going crazy over the amount of points each army would have. right? 750-850 for the three hb & two seers.

Gutting the squad of that painboy (aswell as sniping the low willed nobz) in addition to a reasonable choppy & shooty element is key.

Edit: @ Bagder.. good call but with two such fast units, its not unlikely to trap your own fast speeders. Also, the nobz could forget the termies and bury themselves into the rest of your army. Combined, interesting.

I think the landspeeder Typhoon could hurt them. Don't forget its missile launcher has two shots - S8 AP3. Granted you have to get past the cover save and the invulnerable save but each failed wound insta-kills a nob. I would also toss in a multi melta for the third S8 shots shen the nobs decide to close in. You will have to play the range game to keep away from the dakka guns on the bikes but I can see this as a means of whittling down their two units.

G

exorcists don't get enough turns on a pitched battle or DoW mission to shoot at them. Unless you roll 4+ each turn for all of the shots.
,
Math hammer:
3 exorcists assume you get turn 1 AND failed saves are on nobs
turn 1
9 shots, 5 hits, 4 wounds, 2 failed saves, one on boss and one dead nob
turn 2 they turbo boost
9 shots, 5 hits, 4 wounds, 1 failed save, one dead nob
turn 3
they are in your face and its over...

now if you ROLL all 6's for shots... (highly unlikely)
Math hammer:
3 exorcists assume you get turn 1 AND failed saves are on nobs
turn 1
18 shots, 12 hits, 10 wounds, 5 failed saves, one on boss and four dead dead nob
turn 2 they turbo boost
18 shots, 12 hits, 10 wounds, 3 failed save, two dead nob one wounded boss.
turn 3
they are in your face and its over... you did some damage to the one squad.... they did more to you.

yea.. I know this exorcist thing well as it is really what I ran into vs Moz at the GT.

I think getting mass Str 8 pie plates could help, but you can't get that in sisters.... I think some sillyness is the fact 9 penitent engines COULD possibly do well vs the nob bikers but just blow so bad it's not funny.

see.. this ork list is mainly gonna be those two squads with how much in point extra?

Speed bumping and/or effective sacrificial CC units (as, for modest points 'it' wont survive) with combined shooty. All this talk of orky A rushing counter B is a bit pointless as there isnt anything that will counter effectively & survive (from whats been suggested)

I do wanna play against these - what does a standard 1500pt setup comprise of?

Razerous wrote:see.. this ork list is mainly gonna be those two squads with how much in point extra?

Speed bumping and/or effective sacrificial CC units (as, for modest points 'it' wont survive) with combined shooty. All this talk of orky A rushing counter B is a bit pointless as there isnt anything that will counter effectively & survive (from whats been suggested)

I do wanna play against these - what does a standard 1500pt setup comprise of?

Razer...it's not going to work as well as 1750, because to field the 10model squad (Warboss, Painboy, 8 nobz) costs 760. Two of those units won't fit in 1500. You have to drop the squad size to 8, probably, at minimum. At that size, a lot more counters become viable.

At 1750, you've got two nob biker squads, and probably 1 squad of boyz. That's it. That's really all you need. The nobs count as troops because you've got 2 warbosses. And there's no next to no target that the nob bikerz can't deal with. Turn 1 the bikerz turbo-boost, the boyz hunker down to hold objectives near the staring line (or move forward in a KP mission), and the nobz kill everything they touch.

The biggest problem with speedbumps is that the bikerz can probably avoid them.

Nob bikerz are like the Godzilla nids of 1500 in 40K 4. They don't seem to do as well at 2500, because opponents can take enough stuff to reliably swamp them. But at 1750, its extremely tough to do.

A mobile assault army is your best bet. Set your objectives deep in your DZ and make the nobs come to you. Eventually they will charge you. Keep your units inside your transport. Let the nobs attack the transports and come out on the other side. Now assault through the wreckage with your big hitters while your scoring units fall back towards your objectives. Setup the initial nob charge is away from the objectives. You have to hit them really hard so you take out at least one nob unit. Now the orks have max two scoring units left. If you time it right the orks will have to decide whether to go for the closest objectives or continue with another assault. If you can catch them out it is quite possible if the game ends on turn five that you are holding more objectives.

G

hmm just thinking... how about in a sisters army you run a Cullexus assasin and then tank shock the bikers? You could put loud hailers on the rhinos to make the nobs LD 6 as long as the assasin is around.

If you decided to use this method of nob control, You can call this Froggyshocking

CRAP! call it mozzyshocking :(

Moz wrote:Get the unit to 10 models or less and run a Culexus assassin over there, tank shock their weedy LD7 butts off the board.

Have your Inquisitor cast Purgatus onto the Warboss. LD6 warboss! Return to tankshocking.

Except that I posted it on page 2! Haha!
Therefore, we will call it Mozzyshocking.

Would a nid army with the psykic scream (the LD affecting passive 18'' somthing psykic ability) x lots with a few gribbly high T fexes?

Likewise.. can markerlights affect LD for 25% shooting causlties moral checks or is it just pinning?

Are these nobz fearless?!

All in honour of the fabled Mozzyshocking..

They use the standard mob rule for orks, so fearless at 11 models. LD10 at 10 models, 9 at 9. Won't go below 9 with a warboss around since he's Ld9 base, but the choir, culexus, pin check modifiers from markerlights, horrorfexes, terrorfexes are all good options.

Ld is the lynchpin of the force, which is why it would never have worked until Space Marines were nerfed through the floor with dual Fear of the Darkness + Fury of the Ancients removed from the tourney scene.

All winning strategies revolve around capitalizing on Ld modifiers against this unit. The most often realized is through beating them in well organized assault, but the other options are great.

Green Blow Fly wrote:A mobile assault army is your best bet. Set your objectives deep in your DZ and make the nobs come to you. Eventually they will charge you. Keep your units inside your transport. Let the nobs attack the transports and come out on the other side. Now assault through the wreckage with your big hitters while your scoring units fall back towards your objectives. Setup the initial nob charge is away from the objectives. You have to hit them really hard so you take out at least one nob unit. Now the orks have max two scoring units left. If you time it right the orks will have to decide whether to go for the closest objectives or continue with another assault. If you can catch them out it is quite possible if the game ends on turn five that you are holding more objectives.

G

Yep, agree... landraiders and vanguard will put a hurt on nobz....then all you hav eto deal with are the possible psybotk save and 2 wounds. But how many powerfists versus lightning claws? And do you take the relic blade? s6 no save at initiative seems pretty sweet.

ender502

Orks shoot fateweaver. 16.6 hits, 8.3 wounds, 1 failed save. Charge in on fateweaver alone - 20 regular attacks, 21 power klaw attacks, and 4 urty syringe attacks. 14.44 wounds. Odds are in the Orks favor that Fateweaver fails both remaining saves and dies.

I have destroyed nob bikers with Crushers and fateweaver. It's almost impossible for the nob bikers to charge Fateweaver. You spread the crushers out to prevent charges thru them and if they turbo boost you have enough mobility to move fate weaver 12 and reposition your crushers.