i was perusing my Imperial guard codex and was hoping to do something new with my storm troopers because i never use them. i wanted to give them heavy weapons but there is no option for them to do so in the codex. this makes no sense to me because Vetrans can take them and they cost less points (and are better in my opinion). i would appreciate any thoughts on this issue

Storm Troopers have a specialized role in the fluff, and that role doesn't include carrying heavy weapons (which would slow them down).

They are the kind of unit that infiltrates or drops down through skylights in a movie and assassinates the priority target.

If heavy weapons are needed for the job then its not the right job for storm troopers (by the fluff).

Yep. If you can't pop it with a melta gun, then you probably want to be shooting it from further away in your basic flak armour..

yakface wrote:

They are the kind of unit that... drops down through skylights in a movie and assassinates the priority target.

All priority targets take note. Try not to have skylights in your Head Quarters

or if you are going to have skylights, for god's sake reinforce those bad boys

Drunkspleen wrote:or if you are going to have skylights, for god's sake reinforce those bad boys

Or build a punji pit underneath it!

good points lol. my other question is why do hellguns suck so much!?! it says something about the codex when many player would rather spend points on other stuff than their elites

Hellguns suck because that's how GW made them.

I've done some of my own playtesting, and have come to the conclusion that for their points cost a Hellgun is more deserving of one of the following two statlines:

Hellgun
Ra24"; Str3; AP5; Assault 2

Hellgun
Ra24"; Str4; AP6; Rapid Fire

I'm more partial to the first fire type, as I believe Storm Troopers are supposed to be a highly mobile shock infantry that fight with a tenacity matched in the IG Codex only by the attacks from an unexpected quarter of a Hardened Veteran Squad.

However, I'm not on the dev team. So they still suck.

CK

because a hellgun, and by association a hellpistol, is nothing more than a turbocharged lasgun, or laspistol, with the word SUCK written in big letters next to the imperial aquila.

period.

~Bart

I am also a fun of the Str3 AP5 Assault2 24" Hellgun. Make it IG's version of the Stormbolter.

But look at it this way, they're great for denying armor saves to those pesky traitor guard!

or its good for the traitor guard to not let the regular guard not have armour saves

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:Hellgun Ra24"; Str4; AP6; Rapid Fire

Most of their activity happens <12" (Plasma rapid-fire, Melta), so Rapid-fire is better. S4 is correct, so at that point, you might as well give them Bolters.

Or mini-Multi-Lasers:

Hellgun R24" S5 AP- Rapid Fire.

I would prefr a statline that makes hell guns unique in the game, not just bolter clones.

Something like: R 18, S 3, AP 6, assault 3.

They would tear though light infantry and may actually make a dent in MEQ's, although a small dent it may be. Basically for a squad that is usaually all on their own they need to be throwing out more shots.

Gah, could people stop with the S3 Hellguns?

Think about Storms and what they do, along with the rest of the army.

The *last* thing that Storms need is a S3 gun in a veritable sea of S3 guns. If a Guard player wants S3 guns, he can pay half as much for each gun through more Infantry, without burning an Elite slot. Sure, they're AP5, but with over half of any event being MEQs, AP5 might as well be AP-. And Assault 2 or Assault 3? Who cares? It's still a S3 Lasgun.

And Storms are useless from a Special Weapons platform as well, being limited to only 2 Specials, with NO Heavies. Veterans are also BS4, but can take 3 Specials *and* a Heavy, so Vets clearly outlcass Storms from that perspective as well.

And burning a Docrtrine point (soon to be a moot point) is for Storms as Troops is weak because Guard can always take a couple Inq. Storms as (non-Compulsory) Troops.

So when you look at them, Storms really have no place in a Guard army. Not overcosted, with poorer weapons options compared to Veterans, and (effectively) the same S3 Lasguns as regular Guard.

In 2E, they were S4+, and that's really what they should be.

If people don't want them to have Bolters (so they don't compete with awesome Sisters of Battle), then the only remaining choice is to bump up to S5. As they're still Las, you keep AP-.

With S5, you can glance any Rhino / Razorback, and Penetrate AV10. You can fan down light Skimmers and Kans. Little dudes (T3 GEQs) are wounded on a 2+, and likely die due to having poor saves. On a 6, you can even wound T8 Wraithlords (it'll probably save, but 1/3 of the time you get lucky). S5 Hellgun makes Storms into a useful unit with a distinctive capability.

As previously stated a Hell gun is a las gun with an over charged battery (hot shot rounds) the purpose is to punch through armor. The str. dosent do anything, its all about AP.
Think of a standard 5.56 nato round compared to a 5.56 AP round. The bullet is the same just one is designed to go through armor, as a storm trooper would want to put targets down quickly and not have to shoot them multiple times. Remember Fluff wise it makes sense, 99.99% of the population dosent walk around in carapace or power armor (as opposed to the game where 99.99% of the models have power armor)and 99% of enemies are T3 as opposed to 99% of the models played in the game. So when we read the books who are gaurdsmen usually fighting? Traitor gaurd, orks, etc... all of which usually have flak armor or some variant of it. When they do run into the odd power armor wearing behemoth its usually a small squad of 5, but thats rare. So thats why stormies have melta guns, plasma guns for the ocassional hard target. They dont need heavy weapons because usually they are up close and personal.

Now if say the round had more STR and AP, the general weight of the weapon would increase as well as limiting ammo capacity. Stormies dont want to carry more weight than they have to and having to stop and change cells every 5 shots because the batteries keep draining would really suck. So stick with the hell gun, decent ammo capacity, decent AP. The gun has the str to hurt the majority of stormies targets and the AP to defeat most armor (again fluff wise not game wise)

But in general yes hell guns suck, they hurt most targets on a 5+ and most armor is better than the AP of the weapon. But I assume all of that will change if and when the new codex comes out. Very few people play gaurd (even fewer in 5th) so it would be nice to seem them playable again.

That being said I really hope they make stormtroopers playable in the next gaurd codex, Ive always wanted to do a gaurd assault army.

The default Fluff target of a Stormtrooper has poor body armor, so AP5 is meaningless.

However wounding the target on a 2+ is useful.

Hence, S5 AP-.


OTOH, S3 is useless, so why bother with it?

Same stats as an ion rifle? I'd make sure its limited in range to normal rapid fire distance 24". This would follow some fluff of being more of a heavy hitter.

Or inversely really tick off the Spazz Marinez Hurr and make it S3 AP3 rapid fire -a kind of wussy plasma. Everything they carry could then deal with armor but maintains fluff iof being an armor penetrator. Give them the marine shotgun option for higher strength.

John, because Storm Troopers are supposed to be mobile Elite. If you incorporated a rule for them that any special weapons they fielded could be fired as per their normal type or as Assault 1, you'd have a mobile unit that would be able to keep pace with the enemy while maintaining a decent combat radius.

The Str3 and Assault 2 is to represent the improved firing rate on a weapon that is already appropriately powered. They should be drowing their opponent with Hellfire, not throwing out a few high-strength shots -- that's what a Shas'la does.

Besides, 2 Str3 BS4 shots is comparable to a single Str4 BS4 shot. Against MEQ, the Assault 2 Hellgun kills 0.148 Marines, while a Bolter only kills 0.111. The disparity switches around in favor of Bolters at close range, encouragin Storm Troopers to play the range game via maneuver warfare. Against GEQ, the Assault 2 Hellgun drops 0.667 Guardsmen, while a Bolter only pops 0.444. Again, at closer ranges, the Bolter is superior, again encouraging Storm Troopers to keep their enemies at arm's length.

Does it make sense now?

CK

No, it doesn't.

S3 guns of any sort are a poor choice for Storms because they don't do anything interesting or distinctive.

Your whole argument of A2 or A3 S3 Hellguns is based on the premise that Storms are already worth taking and that S3 is already useful.

That premise is patently false.

The current Storms do absolutely nothing that other units don't do better and cheaper. Guardsmen are better for massed S3 and ranged games. Veterans are better for Specials.

And the idea that A2 S3 is somehow comparable to S4 RF is utter nonsense. Just put a Rhino wtih PMSB on the board, and we'll see who wins the shootout. Heck, make it an AV10 OT Vyper, and the Storms still lose.

Either S4 Bolters or S5 AP- RF guns would make more sense.

Also, I wasn't aware that IG had access to Shaslas that competed with Storms.

But even if they did, Storms have the "good" Sv4+ armor and close-range Assault weapons to operate up close. Let the Hellgun be similarly useful up close as well by double-tapping S5.

You conveniently forgot the Assault 1 caveat for Specials that I mentioned.

In addition, you clearly did not actually try to math out what I was saying with regard to the A2 Str3 Hellgun and Bolter being comparable. Stormies will outshoot Bolter Marines from >12" with standard weapons if the Storm Troopers have A2 Hellguns.

Guard are not close range brawlers, regardless of what you kit them out with. Giving Storm Troopers A2 Hellguns in conjunction with the Special weapons addendum make them excellent mid-range rifle teams with man-portable weapons to add a little punch. You want massed S3 gunlines, you need look no further than the Infantry Platoon. They are as immobile as they are expendable.

Storm Troopers present a Guard player the option of taking mobile units of soldiers with enhanced survivability and improved accuracy, not to be a one-hit wonder against a closing enemy squad. Currently, there is no place in the Guard Codex to field infantry units that rely on maneuver warfare without ODing on special weapons. Stormies are the Elite, and are supposed to excel at this. Why not make them the ones to take up the mantle?

Apparently the word "distinctive" has nothing to do with finesse gameplay. Any idiot can load up a suicide team of Rapid-Firing Str5 guns and doubletap them alongside a pair of Plasmas into an enemy squad. In case you didn't get that memo, that's what Quadruple-Flamer Command Squads currently are used for, and they've got that task down good.

"Distinct" can mean many things. "Distinctly Cookie Cutter" is one label I would prefer to keep off Storm Trooper Squads. Making them suicide counter charge units like 4x Flamer Commands and 3x Plasma Hardened Veterans would do just that.

CK

1. Storm Special weapons aren't the primary problem, because, while Storms can get them, Veterans can get more. Also, Assault weapons aren't thematic to the Imperial armies. Rapid-Fire is. Also Meltas, Flamers and GLs are already Assault weapons. So all of this is window dressing masking the fundamental problem of Storms with S3 guns.

2. The math isn't important, because S3 isn't a good idea. So I ignore it entirely. It's like putting a silk dress on a pig - still an ugly pig.

3. Guard are mostly long-range. Storms, OTOH, with their multiple Flamers and Meltas and Rapid-Fire Plasma *are* close-range. And if you're aware that Platoons give massed S3, why are you even bothering with S3 Hellguns again? Guard aren't a maneuver warfare army. Nor should they be. That is what Eldar and Dark Eldar are for. The Guard is a slow grind. And Storms are point teams in this force.

Guard aren't a "finesse" army, nor should they be. Eldar are the finesse army. Guard should be simple and obvious. Why you suggest Gaurd should be anything else is beyond me.

If, by "Distinct" you want an Eldar unit in a Guard army, I think that's a bad idea. As fundamental Troops, Storms are just as iconically ordinary as Guard, Sisters, and Marines, and should have more in common with those units than any other. That means Rapid-Fire 24" basic guns. Not Assault 24" guns.

Honestly, John.

1. Storm Special weapons aren't the primary problem, because, while Storms can get them, Veterans can get more.

Veterans are also a one-trick pony -- you take three Plasma or Melta, Deep Strike them and viola, dead tank. Followed shortly be dead Vets. Storm Troopers are the soldiers with the flexibility to apply force where necessary, like what Vets do, while remaining a maneuverable, fundamental part of a Guard commander's arsenal.

Also, Assault weapons aren't thematic to the Imperial armies. Rapid-Fire is.

Really? I thought the Guard relied on Heavy Weapons and tanks to get the job done...

I guess all those Plasma and Flame weapons that they always bring to bear are a bunch of hallucinated bs too.

Also Meltas, Flamers and GLs are already Assault weapons. So all of this is window dressing masking the fundamental problem of Storms with S3 guns.

Maybe I should better articulate my idea -- that Storm Troopers would have access to, say, a Heavy Stubber or Man-Portable Multilaser. I guess I never got around to pointing that out since you seemed to be so eager to jump on my A2 Hellgun idea.

2. The math isn't important, because S3 isn't a good idea. So I ignore it entirely. It's like putting a silk dress on a pig - still an ugly pig.

How do you expect me to take your side of this discussion seriously if you simply dismiss everything that others contribute?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised...Where's HBMC with a zinger?

3. Guard are mostly long-range.

Yet Rapid Fire is what Guard are all about...hmm...

Storms, OTOH, with their multiple Flamers and Meltas and Rapid-Fire Plasma *are* close-range. And if you're aware that Platoons give massed S3, why are you even bothering with S3 Hellguns again?

We've already got Bolter Marines, why did they make Terminator Storm Bolters Str4? Those bastards!

Guard aren't a maneuver warfare army. Nor should they be. That is what Eldar and Dark Eldar are for. The Guard is a slow grind. And Storms are point teams in this force.

And what does every point team have in common? The ability to move. Veterans got this via Infiltrate, there's no reason why Storm Troopers should not get the ability to move and shoot at full effect. Nothing else in the army can do that. Giving an army some variation in the types of units they can field (which, in the case of the Guard, is pretty much just the sit and shoot flavor of unit) allows for different configurations of each list to be built. Doctrines tried to do this, making different types of units is an even better method of executing the same concept.

Guard aren't a "finesse" army, nor should they be. Eldar are the finesse army. Guard should be simple and obvious. Why you suggest Gaurd should be anything else is beyond me.

I'm not suggesting that Guard have be a "finesse" army. I'm suggesting they have access to a somewhat agile mid-range shooting unit. Is it too much to ask for something other than "sit and shoot type A" and "sit and shoot type B?"

Eldar are a finesse army because everything they have is fast and agile. Having a single unit with a rapier amongst an army of English long swords does not make Guard a "finesse" army. It makes them a generally "slow grind" army with some choices.

If, by "Distinct" you want an Eldar unit in a Guard army, I think that's a bad idea.

Judging by how much thought you put into my previous points, I'm not sure I can convince myself to care what you think. At least, not any more than the amount it took to rebut you.

As fundamental Troops, Storms are just as iconically ordinary as Guard, Sisters, and Marines, and should have more in common with those units than any other. That means Rapid-Fire 24" basic guns. Not Assault 24" guns.

If by "iconically ordinary" you mean "the Imperial Guard Elite" perhaps...

That is terrible logic, John. Because they bear a similarity in function to other armies doesn't mean they should be stunted from growing into a flavorful addition to a Guard army while providing enough utility that they actually see the field more often.

If they were supposed to bear commonality with Marines and Sisters, they'd have Power Armor. If they were supposed to bear commonality with Guard, they'd suck at shooting.

They are the mid-range between the two because that is "distinctly" their iconic place -- the creme de la creme of Human soldiership short of becoming a Space Marine. From a design standpoint, they should not be leaning on the concepts of other Imperial Armies simply because they're fighting on the same side.

CK

S4 shotguns. All problems solved. Capable of putting reliable wounds on all MEQs with assault options versus GEQs.

Honestly, S5? Why in the world would Storms tote something on par with heavy bolters? The Heavy Bolter is almost as large as their entire body, and these guys are all supposed to have miniaturized technology on par or better than Astartes?

I'm actually with JohnHwangDD on this one. The Hellgun is limited in what it can be, by virtue of the bolter. As an all around general issue weapon, it can't really exceed the bolter, or else marines would use it. Meaning for it to be good, in any way, it has to be a weapon with a trade off, in this case AP- for S5. It fits with relation to bolters both rules wise and fluffwise, it brings something new, but fair, to the army at large.

Except that it's just silly ruleswise, and impossible to justify, both ruleswise and fluffwise.

Give the mutability of Fluff and rules, it most certainly is justifiable.

Storms are baseline Troops, like Sisters, Guard, and Marines. Ergo, they need a 24" RF gun. Guard Lasgun is S3 AP-, but the Storm Hellgun should be more akin to a S4 AP5 Bolter. As we don't want another Bolter, trade S5 against Lasgun-like AP-.

Model-wise, it's a Lasgun with a big power pack, so S5 is justifiable.

Fluff-wise, it's better than a Lasgun.

Our Hellguns are:

R30 S3 AP5 Rapid Fire or R30 S6 AP4 Rapid Fire/Gets Hot!

Works quite well. A unit of them can appear behind a tank and just shoot it to death.

BYE

The best Hellgun, however, is Assault 3 R24" Str 3 Ap5, without a doubt.

Fluffwise, this IS better than a lasgun. I've said it before, but this is similar to bolters. Without the cookie-cutter Str 4 Ap 5.

But even if you disagree with my idea, the Hellgun should be at very least Assault. Rapid fire is the worst weapon type in the entire game, and is entirely unsuited for troops who are supposed to be on the move, and not stationary.

Also the other problem is that Hellguns aren't bolters. They shouldn't be. They're different.

The idea I mentioned above just positively annihilates T 3, but does worse and worse as you go up the ladder of Toughness. And we all know what happens when you go up against high T, right? Plasma guns!

But for general all-purpose, my suggested profile is the most effective.

"most effective"?

OK, I have Rhinos and Landspeeders...

Guys, don't argue with DD. There's no point. He will simply restate his own argument - flaws or no flaws - with out change over and over again until everyone grows tired of arguing with him and gives up, at which point he'll claim 'victory'.

And that's assuming you can even work out what he's talking about first!

So, as I've said a few times before, the easiest way to fight a wall is to walk away from it.

BYE

Good call, HBMC.

See ya guys.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Give the mutability of Fluff and rules, it most certainly is justifiable

If we're playing Hwanghammer, where basic las weaponry can blow Typhus into smoking oblivion. Boy, I can see that fluff now.

trade S5 against Lasgun-like AP-

I don't know what imaginary number sphere you pulled that conversion out of. Strength 5 AP - is better than S4 Ap5 any day of the week. I'm completely baffled how you could justify that.

Model-wise, it's a Lasgun with a big power pack, so S5 is justifiable.

Go look at the Imperial Guard heavy bolter. That's a S5 weapon. Now go look at the Imperial Guard backpack/hellgun combo. Wow, that's totally the same. Using your metrics, we can save the American auto industry by reducing vehicle size to something approximately as large as toaster. It'll require far fewer resources while being just as good. You're a goddamn genius.

Its unfortunately a problem of just being restricted by pre-established values. If it were to be S4 AP-, it'd be the shotgun, where does that leave it? If its S4 AP5 its a bolter. The only other thing you could do is have it be S4 AP- with some special rule, like rending *role eyes*, but even that makes the shotgun moot.

What's wrong with giving a 10 point model a S4 shotgun? Why do Stormtroopers, who are certainly elite soldiers as reflected by their superior Ballistic Skill, have to be turned into Super Ultra Kill Guys? 9 Stormtroopers with S5 AP/- hellguns would absolutely wipe the floor with a comparable number of points of any other unit.

Weapon Strength and Armor Piercing rating are not 1:1 trades. S6/Ap- bolters are disgustingly better than regular bolters. Modifying AP generally makes a weapon better or worse at killing the targets that it's already decent at killing. Modifying Strength makes a weapon just as good or better at killing what it used to, while also opening up a giant new range of AV and higher T models that it becomes viable against.

Lasguns are poor, shotguns used to be poor, then they made them S4 AP-, where before they shared the same Str and AP. Its seems pretty clear stormtroopers will have the option to take shotguns, so how would a hellgun be different?

The power pack with a hellgun is as big if not bigger than a special weapon. I think the hellgun really needs to be looked at as a weaker special weapon rather than a juiced up standard issue weapon. The hellgun can be seen as the special weapon, in the lasgun and multilaser family.

Some vairations and alternative:
R24 S5 AP- Assault 1
R24 S5 AP- RF, Get Hot!
R24 S4 AP- RF, Rending

I think the stat line of S5 AP- can work with consideration to the other values. When you look at the distinction made between standard marines and the Sternguard the power jump is noticable, a whole squad effectively armed with special weapons. With IG in all the continued fixation being poor for the sake of being poor have the least distinction between their basic troops and their elites. Armed with the toned down special weapon version of a lasgun, all I can say is "gasp", then they might be worth 10pts.

S4/assault 2 R12" with frag/krak grenades and a 4+ armor save costed at 8-9 points base is effective and reflects Storm Troopers accurately within the fluff. They're well-equipped, elite warriors based on the sucky and fragile human body.

Hellguns aren't bolters. And they're certainly not better than bolters. Backpack size is irrelevant; Space Marine melta/plasma guns don't even have backpacks. Backpacks reflect the bulkier, less efficient and modernized technology supplied en masse to the Guard.

The problem everyone has with Stormtroopers is that they cost 10 points when the basic IG is 6 and rumored to go down to 4. Instead of making whacky rules to shoehorn them into this 10 point threshold, just cost them appropriately from the get-go.

When it comes to the elite options of the Imperial Guard, they shouldn't be made cheaper they should be made that much better. I'm not really sure how reinforcing the uniqueness of their armament is a shoehorning of the unit. 8, 9, or 10 pts they should maintain their basic point cost and just be made more worth while. If they need to be cheaper decrease their weapon upgrade costs. The idea of giving them bolters sounds like the corner their being painted into, but I really don't want to see them become marines. There has to be some middle ground between platoon guardsmen and marine, that isn't so close to line guardsmen end of the spectrum.

The fixation that they're just human and so should remain unchanged is silly, in every other army in this game units have gotten more powerful, on a relative scale IG should have as well, but instead the army continues to move in the opposite direction of being made relatively weaker and cheaper, requiring ever more models. Personally, I'm just running out of table top space to deploy on and am hitting that tipping point where the amount of fun I have plateaus and decreases proportionately to the number of models I have to field.

aka_mythos wrote:in every other army in this game units have gotten more powerful

Decreasing cost makes your army more powerful by letting you play with more "points" than your opponent. Codex: Orks is the most glaringly obvious example. Codex: Space Marines on the other hand does give more abilities to units, but at the appropriate points investment. Regardless, your statement about everything simply becoming more powerful is patently false. The Ork Boy is still S3 and the Space Marine is still 4's across the board.

opposite direction of being made relatively weaker and cheaper

If C:Orks is any indication, cheaper is not weaker.

Personally, I'm just running out of table top space to deploy on and am hitting that tipping point where the amount of fun I have plateaus and decreases proportionately to the number of models I have to field.

Turning Imperial Guard into Imperial Eldar is not the answer. If you don't like fielding hordes and hordes of men with lasguns, I'd advise playing Mech Guard or Sisters of Battle. Imperial Guard are not meant to be a small, elite army of high powered weaponry.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Give the mutability of Fluff and rules, it most certainly is justifiable.

Storms are baseline Troops, like Sisters, Guard, and Marines. Ergo, they need a 24" RF gun. Guard Lasgun is S3 AP-, but the Storm Hellgun should be more akin to a S4 AP5 Bolter. As we don't want another Bolter, trade S5 against Lasgun-like AP-.

Model-wise, it's a Lasgun with a big power pack, so S5 is justifiable.

Fluff-wise, it's better than a Lasgun.

Storm troopers aren't baseline troops - they are Elites.

So what do elites do? They specialize at something. Presently, all of the elites has a specialty. Ogryns, albeit terrible at the role, have an okay go at hand to hand. Ratlings cook well and snipe better. Veterans bring the most firepower possible in a ten man squad (though presently, all they tend to do is drop, kill a tank and then die). Tech priests fix your immobilized vehicles and pack servitor punch. What does a storm trooper do that justifies this elite status?

Per the fluff, the storm troopers are the mobile troops who are highly trained and possess dual degrees in Murderology and Murderonomy. They're big toy soldiers who are the missing link between the guardsmen and the marines - quite similar to a space marine scout in many ways.

They are not, however, running around with guns that pack a similar punch to a heavy bolter, which are rapid fire and generally make them a guard unit with a higher BS and carapace.

Make their hellguns S 3 AP 5 assault 2. Give them options to make their special weapons assault weapons. Left them outflank decisely with their assault weapons. Let them be a mobile fighting force. Determine what their specialty will be, and follow through with appropriate game design which makes them useful and affordable for what they should do. Don't make them what veterans are now - a way to drop in, shoot something up and then die in the next turn.

sourclams wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Give the mutability of Fluff and rules, it most certainly is justifiable

If we're playing Hwanghammer, where basic las weaponry can blow Typhus into smoking oblivion. Boy, I can see that fluff now.

Typhus is already vulnerable to Las weapons, so "Hwanghammer" isn't needed.

But I'll remind you to be polite in the future.

sourclams wrote:

trade S5 against Lasgun-like AP-

I don't know what imaginary number sphere you pulled that conversion out of. Strength 5 AP - is better than S4 Ap5 any day of the week. I'm completely baffled how you could justify that.

There are very few alternatives in terms of what can be done given the numerical workspace available, given that we're talking about AP- Las weapons. S5 AP- slots between the S3 AP- Lasgun and S6 AP- Multi-laser.

S4 AP- is just a 24" RF Shotgun, but it's easy to remember rules-wise.

sourclams wrote:

Model-wise, it's a Lasgun with a big power pack, so S5 is justifiable.

Go look at the Imperial Guard heavy bolter. That's a S5 weapon. Now go look at the Imperial Guard backpack/hellgun combo. Wow, that's totally the same. Using your metrics, we can save the American auto industry by reducing vehicle size to something approximately as large as toaster. It'll require far fewer resources while being just as good. You're a goddamn genius.

Thanks for stating the obvious. Too bad Dakka rules on politenesss don't allow me to comment on (or label) your level of intelligence (or glaringly obvious lack thereof...).

But it's nice to know that you're a pure Spaz Marinz player, which is why you look at AP4 the same as AP-. Tau players and traitor Storms might disagree with that sentiment, though...

Then again, I that's why I guess I'm the "genious" and you're not...

sourclams wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:in every other army in this game units have gotten more powerful

Decreasing cost makes your army more powerful by letting you play with more "points" than your opponent.

Your statement has little to do with what I said, I said:

in every other army in this game units have gotten more powerful

Look at what happened to basic space marine veterans, the sternguard are clearly better than their previous edition counter parts. I want the unit improved, not the points balanced, not made uber awesome to the max, improved. IG are so low on the totem pole there really isn't too much lower.... we could be grots, we could always be grots.

sourclams wrote:

opposite direction of being made relatively weaker and cheaper

If C:Orks is any indication, cheaper is not weaker.

Once again though, their decrease in general cost was something seperate to the improvements made to units.

sourclams wrote:Turning Imperial Guard into Imperial Eldar is not the answer. If you don't like fielding hordes and hordes of men with lasguns, I'd advise playing Mech Guard or Sisters of Battle. Imperial Guard are not meant to be a small, elite army of high powered weaponry.

I'm not trying to field an army of elites, with the exception of when I do play my mech guard, I only field one stormtrooper squad. I'm not saying turn the IG into Eldar, I'm saying that there is a strong inconsistency between what IG consider "elite" relative to troops and what other armies do. With other armies there is this balancing act of deciding do I take more elites or troops, more sternguard or more space marines, thats because there is a true trade off. With IG unless you're playing an army purely for flavor you'll almost always go with just taking more troops because there simply isn't enough of an advantage or reason to take their elite choices. Cheapening those elite choices won't matter if they're done proportionate to the basic platoon. The army has been pigeon holed into a limited number of play styles and one cause is the lack of significant elite assets. The main reason I've known people to take elite choices at all is because they don't want to paint anymore basic guardsmen. In fairness, right now the most viable IG elite choice is the veteran squad, yet really they're the most like basic line guardsmen but should have the fewest advantages over the other elite choices. Other hoarde armies have significant elite options without diminishing the spirit of their army, why can't guard?

bryantsbears wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Give the mutability of Fluff and rules, it most certainly is justifiable.

Storms are baseline Troops, like Sisters, Guard, and Marines. Ergo, they need a 24" RF gun. Guard Lasgun is S3 AP-, but the Storm Hellgun should be more akin to a S4 AP5 Bolter. As we don't want another Bolter, trade S5 against Lasgun-like AP-.

Model-wise, it's a Lasgun with a big power pack, so S5 is justifiable.

Fluff-wise, it's better than a Lasgun.

Storm troopers aren't baseline troops - they are Elites.

They are not, however, running around with guns that pack a similar punch to a heavy bolter,

Make their hellguns S 3 AP 5 assault 2.

Stormtroopers *are* baseline Troops.

See C: WH and C: DH. Storms are the cheapest and worst Troops available to either Codex.

Storms are "Elite" compared to Guard, but that's only because Guard set the floor for what can be fielded in the 40k universe. Also, I don't think that Storms deserve Elite slots. Storms should simply be moved to Troops, which is where they belong, as the best "Troops" the Guard can field.

Why not? They've got the good toys and S5 AP- is a darn good toy.

As already stated, S3 is useless and pointless.
____

I don't know why you even make the argument for "Elite". Currently, people only field basic Storms via Grenadiers. Or they take Allied Storms from C: WH / DH. Nobody ever fields Storms that use an Elite slot. And with Allies, Guard can field 5 units of Storms as Troops. So Storms really are Troops.

OTOH, they take Veterans as Elites.

When the Guard player puts 2 units of throwaway Grenadier Storms as his Troops, and 3 units of Veterans as Elites, you know where the Storms really stand in the army.

I still think it makes sense to think of hellguns as special weapons rather than standard issue. Within the context of the IG they have to be better than a lasgun (like all weapons), and equivalent to a bolter without being a bolter. I think as they are now storm troopers are just fancy troop choices, but something needs to be done to make them elite.

sourclams wrote:What's wrong with giving a 10 point model a S4 shotgun? Why do Stormtroopers, who are certainly elite soldiers as reflected by their superior Ballistic Skill, have to be turned into Super Ultra Kill Guys? 9 Stormtroopers with S5 AP/- hellguns would absolutely wipe the floor with a comparable number of points of any other unit.

This is an intereting statement. Lets compare with equal points of Marines shall we.

10 pt str 5 ap- stormies vs 15 point marines at double tap range to make things go faster

4 marines vs 6 stormies, marines fire first = Marines usually survive with heavy casualties
4 marines vs 6 stormies, stormies fire first = stormies survive with heavy casualties.

You would think that would be balanced... You would be wrong. The marines have better LD, and better close combat abilities they will hang around long after the stormies have run off. The stormies should be beating the marines point of point every time in a shooting match. 8 point stormies with str5 guns would not be crazy. 10 point stormies with str 6 guns would not be unheard of. Anyone have an approx cost of a firewarrior? They are a basic troop with a str 5, 30 inch gun.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Typhus is already vulnerable to Las weapons, so "Hwanghammer" isn't needed.

No he's not. For the same reason that somebody who makes $32,000 a year will never be rich.

There are very few alternatives in terms of what can be done given the numerical workspace available, given that we're talking about AP- Las weapons.

False premise. There's plenty of weapon options, looking at things like range, rate of fire, special rules, and points costs. Upping strength by almost 70% is like rewarding a star employee by doubling his/her salary.

But it's nice to know that you're a pure Spaz Marinz player, which is why you look at AP4 the same as AP-. Tau players and traitor Storms might disagree with that sentiment, though...

Here's the number of armies that will be greatly affected by Ap5: 0

Here's the reason why, in two words: Cover Saves

S5 is a ham-fisted and silly fix that is not justifiable either by rules or background.

Storm troopers aren't baseline troops - they are Elites

I apologize, sir, I didn't convey my meaning at all as I intended.

Stormtroopers are baseline, in that they are fundamentally identical to "regular" guys, except for specialist training and options. Similar to how Batman is "just" a human, even though he's a superhero billionaire.

A storm trooper is a baseline trooper when compared to genetically engineered supermen in power armor, and not blokes in flak jackets.

Guess what you're not getting access to if you're using the IG codex?

Space marines.

Getting what you're getting access to if you're using the IG codex?

Squadrons of guard with flak jackets.

Guess what's setting the ground floor for what can be fielded in the IG codex.

A platoon of guard with flak jackets.

A storm trooper, who went to school to be a soldier, is superior and therefore ELITE to the basic guardsman, and belongs in the elites section.

Otherwise, by your logic, a veteran squad should be a troops choice, as they're formerly "troops" as well.

***

If the storm troopers were a mobile force with assault weapons, as opposed to guardsmen with carapace who are hemmed in by having a terrible rapid fire weapons, I'd imagine you might see them a little more frequently.

Yeah, I'm not saying they're a troops choice. I'm using Trooper to mean 'soldier'.

At the same time, they're still Imperial Guard, and there's an associated equipment suite that most definitely doesn't include standard issue S5 greater Daemon-killing bullpups.

JohnHwangDD wrote:But I'll remind you to be polite in the future.

Careful now Sourclams, John's invoked the 'get out of argument free' clause in his posting contract. If your push becomes shove, he gets to 'instant win' you (in his mind anyway) by calling you a big meany rather than actuallying having to rebut you.

Tread carefully Clammy. Tread carefully.

BYE

A stupid idea is a stupid idea and I don't tend to have the kid gloves. Thanks for the warning, all the same.

sourclams wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Typhus is already vulnerable to Las weapons, so "Hwanghammer" isn't needed.

No he's not.

Is Typhus T7+ or AV10+? If not, then he's vulnerable to Las weapons.

If the point is that he is invulnerable because of Sv2+, then that S5 AP- Hellgun simply has more chances to wound before he rips them apart in HtH.

Or if you're talking about fire at >12", then at that point, we consider the real weapons that matter: AP2 Las/Plas and AP1 Meltas vs the Sv4+ cover saves that are everywhere.

Perhaps you can clarify exactly what you meant then?

sourclams wrote:

There are very few alternatives in terms of what can be done given the numerical workspace available, given that we're talking about AP- Las weapons.

False premise. There's plenty of weapon options, looking at things like range, rate of fire, special rules, and points costs. Upping strength by almost 70% is like rewarding a star employee by doubling his/her salary.

Not really. Storms are Imperial Troops, and the Hellgun is their basic gun. Therefore, they will be armed with 24" RF guns. So at that point, the gun is S4+ (because it's powered-up from a Lasgun). Points-wise, you won't charge more because it's still on a marginally-better Guardsman in a sea of 4-5pt Guardsmen.

sourclams wrote:

But it's nice to know that you're a pure Spaz Marinz player, which is why you look at AP4 the same as AP-. Tau players and traitor Storms might disagree with that sentiment, though...

S5 is a ham-fisted and silly fix that is not justifiable either by rules or background.

Yeah, because 2E Stormtoopers with Hotshot Lasguns S don't set any background or rules precedent for what can be done with the unit... :S

sourclams wrote:I apologize, sir, I didn't convey my meaning at all as I intended.

Stormtroopers are baseline, in that they are fundamentally identical to "regular" guys, except for specialist training and options. Similar to how Batman is "just" a human, even though he's a superhero billionaire.

Stormtroopers are generic Imperial Assassins?

No, Stormtroopers are marginally better than Guardsmen, but clearly not quite as good as Sisters of Battle.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Perhaps you can clarify exactly what you meant then?

Typhus is T5. A lasgun is S3. Typhus is not going to die to lasgun fire, for the same reason that Nidzilla tears through Bolterline MEQ with contemptuous ease.

No, Stormtroopers are marginally better than Guardsmen, but clearly not quite as good as Sisters of Battle.

That's my whole point. S5 weaponry on BS4, 10 point models puts SoB to shame.

bryantsbears wrote:Guess what's setting the ground floor for what can be fielded in the IG codex. A platoon of guard with flak jackets.

A storm trooper, who went to school to be a soldier, is superior and therefore ELITE to the basic guardsman, and belongs in the elites section.

Otherwise, by your logic, a veteran squad should be a troops choice, as they're formerly "troops" as well.

***

If the storm troopers were a mobile force with assault weapons, as opposed to guardsmen with carapace who are hemmed in by having a terrible rapid fire weapons, I'd imagine you might see them a little more frequently.

Actually, I thought the current IG Codex ground floor is a platoon of WS2 BS2 Conscripts with minimal weapon options... :S

A Stormtrooper is superior to a Guardsman, but does NOT belong in the Elites section. If, under current rules, I can field more units of Storms in 1500 pts than you can field Platoons, Storms aren't actually particularly Elite at all, even in a Guard army. Ogryns, Ratlings, and/or Techpriests will be un-nerfed and playable to some extent. Storms will still be available as Allied Troops. So, no matter what happens, Guard will not take Storms as Elites. So why fight it? Storms should be properly moved down to Troops to properly reflect their status, and make them playable.

Actually, Veterans *should* be a single-squad upgrade to a full-sized Platoon, which will do wonders in terms of limiting how they get fielded, along with opening options among other Elite slots to make them playable as well. The idea that players take 3 units of Veterans, Storms as Troops, and NO Platoons is ridiculous from any kind of Fluff / Comp perspective.

If Storms didn't cost 10+ pts base, didn't compete with kick-ass Veterans, didn't compete with interesting Ogryns or Ratlings, but instead simply could take unused Troops slots a la Grenadiers / Allied Storms, yes, they'd hit the ground more often. If they cost 9 pts base and could DS for "FREE" with a double-tapping S5 RF gun, they'd probably see quite a bit of play.

sourclams wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Perhaps you can clarify exactly what you meant then?

Typhus is T5. A lasgun is S3. Typhus is not going to die to lasgun fire, for the same reason that Nidzilla tears through Bolterline MEQ with contemptuous ease.

No, Stormtroopers are marginally better than Guardsmen, but clearly not quite as good as Sisters of Battle.

That's my whole point. S5 weaponry on BS4, 10 point models puts SoB to shame.

If the Guard player rolls hot, and the Chaos player rolls badly, Typhus will die to Lasguns. It's just not likely. Heck, look to the old lucky exploits of the Frateris Militia.

But to think that Typhus is suddenly going to be afraid of Storms because their basic gun becomes S5 is kind of strange. 5 Storms w/ 2 Plas RF: 2x Plas= 2.6 hit, 2.2 wound = 1.5 unsaved; 3x S3 hellgun= 4 hit, 0.7 wound, 0.1 net; total 1.6 wounds suffered. But I spend 80+ pts on basic 10 Storms with S5 AP- Hellguns: 20 shots, 13.3 hit, 6.7 wound, 1.1 failed. *Clearly*, the numbers confirm that massed S5 AP- Hellgun fire doing 30% less damage for 12% more points is very scary... :S

Sisters would be Faithful S4 AP5 Sv3+.
Storms would be DS S5 AP- Sv4+.

Storms are better at attacking, Sisters at holding. That's a good enough distinction so that both types could see play.

Stormtroopers are better than guardsmen because they're given better training, schooling, and equipment. Veterans are better because of what they've learned watching everyone die around them. If people honestly just want stormtroopers reduced in cost than stormtroopers might as well be a "Troop" choice.

Veterans I think should be either an individual squad, representing the last remnants of a platoon after a long bloody campaign, or a squad by squad upgrade within a platoon, representing a platoon that's seen action and had replacements brought up from reserve. In either case they should be changed up a bit, given something else rules wise.

@Aka: I think I wasn't clear above, so I edited to clarify what I meant.

If you have to buy a full Platoon of Guardsmen to upgrade 1 squad to BS4 Veterans, they're much Fluffier. Full Platoons are expensive, and unwieldy, so that works to make Veterans rare relative to regular infantry.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If the Guard player rolls hot, and the Chaos player rolls badly, Typhus will die to Lasguns.

And this 'attempt' at a logical argument, my fellow rules-writing friends, is precisely why DD should be systematically and immediately ignored in any and all proposed rules threads...

BYE

Yeah, I loved that bit of fail-lacious reasoning.

"If I roll nothing but 6's, and you roll nothing but 1's, even relatively poor units become powerful!'

Okay, I'll be over here in Realityville.

And yet, the CSM player would still have to roll only 1s to die from S5 AP- Hellgun fire...

And look, now he's repeating himself despite the fact that his 'argument' isn't one and his position is shaky at best. I keep telling everyone - he'll just keep doing this until everyone gives up. It is how Ferrous Cranus Tireless Rebutters debators operate.

BYE

You'd be putting three times as many wounds on him, and AP is still irrelevant. That's why Strength is generally a far better stat than AP.

Johns really just stating how the volume of fire of IG require the enemy to make that many more saves. When your main advantage is volume, having a few models with higher strength values would likely end up as a drop in the bucket.

Or, let's say the IG and Chaos both roll normally. Typhus has little to fear from anything that isn't AP2, whether it's S3, S4, S5 or S7.

And besides, you cherry-picked a best case example with Typhus (who neither should be trying to kill via Lasgun / Hellgun). If you look at fighting against typical enemy T3 GEQs, Storms are only 67% better, wounding on a 2+, vs Guardsmen on a 4+.

Oh, noes?

With S5 Hellguns, Storms can engage targets that are simply out of reach for ordinary Guardsmen. They even have limited ability against armored targets.

With Deep Stirke, they can even get to where their shooting can do some good.

Compared to PA Sisters, Storms are properly shootier but not as resilient.

So what's the problem?

That GW might revise the Fluff and rules again?

Sourclams, I applaud you for having the patience to deal with this troll. Or perhaps it's determination...Or simply a hatred of arguments rank with BS and sour logic.

I think we've reached that point in the conversation where John has realized his arguments are absolutely worthless (not to imply that they were substantive to begin with, we just hadn't quite become nauseated), and now feels that in order to compensate he just spews more of them -- words, that is -- into the thread in a futile attempt to give his arguments impact.

At this point, I would say we've done all we can do for him.

CK

I am so glad I'm not the only one here who sees this! Soon everyone will know and he'll just vanish...

Corpsman you made my day!

BYE

@COK: Let me see if I got this right:

I believe that Hellguns should be R24" S5 AP- RF, instead of R24" S3 AP5 A2 and when I argue the point, that makes me a Troll?

Wow, just wow.

If you can't handle a simple disagreement in opinion over Proposed Rules, maybe you should go to Warseer.

John,

Disagreeing with me doesn't make you a troll. Dismissing everything everyone else adds to the discussion, thoughtful and intelligent those additions may be -- and then figuratively sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "lalalalalala" at the top of your lungs -- does.

CK

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you can't handle a simple disagreement in opinion over Proposed Rules, maybe you should go to Warseer.

Yeah, because Warseer is sooo much worse than a forum full of opinionated spankers with giant egos and no common sense....

Now who's not being polite.



BYE

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:Sourclams, I applaud you for having the patience to deal with this troll. Or perhaps it's determination...Or simply a hatred of arguments rank with BS and sour logic.

I think we've reached that point in the conversation where John has realized his arguments are absolutely worthless (not to imply that they were substantive to begin with, we just hadn't quite become nauseated), and now feels that in order to compensate he just spews more of them -- words, that is -- into the thread in a futile attempt to give his arguments impact.

At this point, I would say we've done all we can do for him.

CK

I agree with you completely, however people do ultimately come to these forums for advice on how to "improve" their game, whatever that may mean for them. Making sure that the chaffy ideas are explicitly labeled "DON'T DO THIS, FOR REAL!!!" is, in my opinion, the responsibility of any serious gaming community. But yeah, I'm with you and HBMC 100% on this one.

And besides, you cherry-picked a best case example with Typhus (who neither should be trying to kill via Lasgun / Hellgun). If you look at fighting against typical enemy T3 GEQs, Storms are only 67% better, wounding on a 2+, vs Guardsmen on a 4+.

No, I picked a valid example to show the ludicrousness of increasing weapon Strength as arbitrarily as you propose. Armor Penetration is only useful against one type of target: those with the relevant armor stat and a toughness value low enough to be affected. Strength is useful against everything in the damn game. "Only 67% better" versus GEQs, are you serious? "Only 67%", good lord, what if your boss decided to cut your pay to $3.00 per hour. "It's only a 67% reduction in pay!"

And that's a cherry-picked example to favor your side of the argument. Now let's look at a T4 target (you know, since the majority of models sold by GW are T4):

Lasgun - wounds on 5-6
S5 Cheesecannon - wounds on 3-6

Good lord, the Cheesecannon is 200% better.

Let's get really extreme, what happens against T5?

Lasgun - 6
Cheesecannon - 4,5,6

It's better than a pyramid scheme! My weapon is 300% better!

With S5 Hellguns, Storms can engage targets that are simply out of reach for ordinary Guardsmen. They even have limited ability against armored targets.

That's the problem. S5 Ap/- rapid fire weaponry is so stupid good that stormtroopers go from 'Oh, no' to 'HELL YES', but it's not in a flavorful, sensible way in sync with the rules. 10 point BS4 S5 means Guardsmen capable of outshooting Marines, Sisters, and Eldar. That makes absolutely no sense within the background. The strength of IG is the amount of guns, not their technological superiority to all of the aforementioned.

Compared to PA Sisters, Storms are properly shootier but not as resilient.

Which, again, makes no sense.

yakface wrote:
Storm Troopers have a specialized role in the fluff, and that role doesn't include carrying heavy weapons (which would slow them down).

They are the kind of unit that infiltrates or drops down through skylights in a movie and assassinates the priority target.

If heavy weapons are needed for the job then its not the right job for storm troopers (by the fluff).

I call BS, here is photographic proof that storm troopers use heavy weapons

Just a question to all reading this thread. If I read correctly, there are three conflicting viewpoints.

John = Str5 ap- 10 points a pop
Clams = give them bolters (or something so close to bolters that you might as well just call them bolters) 8-9 points a pop. DS, ifiltrate for free
Other = fine the way they are, drop the points to 8-9 make them troops, DS, ifiltrate for free.

Me personally I don't think that any talk about storm troopers can take place with out including the firewarrior in the discussions. I mean lord knows all of the tau armies I have seen bulked out with nothing but these guys and their over powered str5 guns.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

yakface wrote:
Storm Troopers have a specialized role in the fluff, and that role doesn't include carrying heavy weapons (which would slow them down).

They are the kind of unit that infiltrates or drops down through skylights in a movie and assassinates the priority target.

If heavy weapons are needed for the job then its not the right job for storm troopers (by the fluff).

I call BS, here is photographic proof that storm troopers use heavy weapons

This alone keeps this thread from being closed.

Modquisition on:
Gentlemen, this is a reminder to be polite. I do not desire to close this thread due to trollike attacks, but will if necessary.
Modquisition off:

I think you pretty much got the break down right. I don't know if it was explicitly stated, but I think that the 10pts, S5 versions include Infiltrate and DS for free.

Foil, your point about tau is a good one. I don't think it steals to much thunder to have as an elite what other armies have with their troops.

Lets take a minute, is it game breaking to have an elite option with S5 weapons? No, other units in other armies have more extreme things as elites, the tau have it with their troops. So as long as the points reflect it, its fair. That only leaves fluff as the justification for prohibiting such a unit, within the context of the IG a big battery and more than juiced up lasgun ends up between a lasgun and a multi-laser. The only thing that prohibits the IG from having it is the fact SM's are suppose to have better weapons. This is a sad symptom of the overcrowding of fluff for the forces of the imperium, that IG are justified not by what they are but more by what they aren't; they're defined by not being marines and prhoibited from encroaching on that most sacred of turf.

Str 5 no Ap should be fine for fluff. After all, plasmas, meltas, storm bolters, and sniper rifles are better than bolters. Logically all marines should be armed with one of those, but aren't.

While I have a preference for the fluff that a hopped up lasgun should be a higher AP the Str 5 variant is fine as well. We are talking only equal to a common Tau trooper.

I seriously don't understand how people see raising the AP from 5 to - as some sort of drawback.

How many armies would actually be affected by the difference in AP? 3 total?

Orks: KFF, cover saves all 'round, irrelevant
Dark Eldar: hugging cover, riding in skimmers, or assaulting out of open topped vehicles, irrelevant
Imperial Guard: hugging cover or riding in transports, irrelevant

If we're going to just flat out say that hellguns should be S5, okay, whatever, I think this'd result in 15 point stormtroopers and then we'd be stuck straight back in 'Nobody takes these models because they cost too much' land. I don't agree, but I can accept that. Alright.

But if we're going to try to make the claim that S5/AP- is exactly the same thing as S4/Ap5, well, this to me looks flat out false.

Frazzled wrote:While I have a preference for the fluff that a hopped up lasgun should be a higher AP the Str 5 variant is fine as well. We are talking only equal to a common Tau trooper.

From the fluff side I think there is justification to go with either. Both the multi-lasers and lascannons are hopped up versions of the same technology taken to different ends and extremes. We have hellguns, but their also exist hot-shot lasgun and long-las that also take this same "las" technology to different ends. It shows a degree of flexibility in the universe with the technology. In a real world sense, it could be justified by the amount of energy/heat in a shot, the diameter of the "las" beam, or the length of the "las" beam.

sourclams wrote:I seriously don't understand how people see raising the AP from 5 to - as some sort of drawback.
...
But if we're going to try to make the claim that S5/AP- is exactly the same thing as S4/Ap5, well, this to me looks flat out false.

Lets just say, Stormtroopers recieve S5/AP-, how much better do they really become? They pretty much become equivalent to a Tau. How much does an equivalently armed Tau cost? Take that cost, consider the general cost down, then add for the ability to DS and infiltrate, that should be the cost. I don't have a Tau Codex, someone should objectively add that up. Even with S5/AP- hellguns, I'd be surprised to see them being more than a marine scout.

((*EDIT: Aaargh!!! Curse your faulty formatting!!! I think it's easier to read if you "Reply Quote" so that the text appears in the Message Body Field. Just an FYI))

Since we're moving toward the view of Storm Troopers as a whole (and not just their standard weapon), I wish to present my proposed rule set for Storm Troopers:

I've written it in the 5th Edition Style that we're seeing so much of in the new Codices.

* * * * *

Storm Trooper Squad 50pts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Trooper 3 4 3 3 1 3 1 8 4+
Sergeant 3 4 3 3 1 3 2 8 4+
Comm LT 4 4 3 3 2 3 2 10 4+

Unit Composition
1 Storm Trooper Sergeant
4 Storm Troopers

Unit Type
Infantry

Wargear
Storm Trooper Sergeant
Hellpistol
Close Combat Weapon
Storm Troopers
Hellgun
All
Targeter
Frag & Krak Grenades
Carapace Armor

Special Rules

Hardened Fighters: May regroup if falling back, even if under half strength. All other restrictions apply.

Infiltrate: May use Infiltrate USR during deployment.

Iron Discipline: This rule only applies if a Commissariat Lieutenant is present in the Squad. As long as the Commissariat Lieutenant lives, the Squad may re-roll all failed Morale and Leadership checks.

Suspensor Mounts: Certain Special and Heavy Weapons have been modified to allow Storm Troopers to fire on the move. All Rapid Fire weapons may elect to fire as an Assault 1 weapon up to the maximum range of the weapon, and all Heavy X weapons may elect to fire as an Assault X, at half range (i.e., the Heavy Stubber may fire as Heavy 3 at 36” or as Assault 3 at 18”).

Options:
Storm Trooper Sergeant:
- May replace his Hellpistol with one of the following:
Hellgun, Shotgun, Bolt Pistol - - free
Plasma Pistol - - - - +10pts
Storm Bolter - - - - +3pts
- May replace his Close Combat Weapon with one of the following:
Power Weapon - - - +5pts
Power Fist - - - - +15pts
- May take any of the following:
Refractor Field - - - +10pts
Operandi Imperialis (+1 Ld) - +10pts
Melta Bombs - - - - +5pts
- May be upgraded to a Commissariat Lieutenant with Carapace Armor, Hellpistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag & Krak Grenades and a Targeter for +25pts. He may take everything that is available to the Storm Trooper Sergeant, with the exception of the Operandi Imperialis.
-
Squad:
- May add 5 Storm Troopers to squad for +45pts
- Any model may replace their Hellgun with a Shotgun or a Hellpistol and Close Combat Weapon for free.
- Up to two Storm Troopers may replace their Hellgun with one of the following (cost of suspensor mount is already included):
Meltagun - - - - +10pts
Plasma Gun - - - - +10pts
Grenade Launcher - - - +5pts
Flamethrower - - - - +5pts
Sniper Rifle - - - - +5pts
- One Storm Trooper may replace its Hellgun with one of the following:
Heavy Stubber - - - - +10pts
Heavy Flamer - - - - +10pts
Sniper Rifle - - - - +5pts

Transport:
Storm Trooper Squad my take a Chimera Dedicated Transport. However in doing so they will forfeit their ability to Infiltrate. See Codex: Imperial Guard for more information about the Chimera.

Weapon Rules:
Range Strength AP Type
Hellgun 24” 3 5 Assault 2
Hellpistol 18” 3 5 Pistol

* * * * *

What do you all think? I tried to make them a decent mid-range mobile unit that can lay down a large amount of antipersonnel fire, I included ways for people to use them as a blunt, in-your-face squad, with Flamethrowers, a Heavy Flamer, shotguns, close combat weapons, and a beefed up W2 Commissar Lieutenant to improve Leadership and combat ability. Not a Space Marine Assault Squad, mind you, but a great, versatile unit that can be equally effective on an open field (with three Sniper Rifles and plenty of medium range small arms) as it can be in a dense urban battlefield, with Flamethrowers, Shotguns, and Meltas aplenty.

Comments and Constructive Feedback are welcome and appreciated.

CK

The shotguns would, of course, be:
Ra 12", Str 4, AP -, Assault 2

CK

Clams, ap - is a huge drawback! What is the difference between

str 5 ap 6
and
str 5 ap -
??????????

Run both guns againt the side of a chimera, or a land speeder, or any other av10 or av11 vehical. Then get back to me. ap- means still good against troops, but not so good against tanks.

Corpsman_of_Krieg ... nice though i'd lose the sniper rifles

and change the 'Suspensor Mounts' to also be Slow and purposeful (they're not gray knights)

Sniper rifle doesn't really fit, I agree. Suspensors are rare and hardly given to marines so in the very least you'd only see them on the heavy weapons and the Heavy Flamer is already assault, so I don't think you need to write the suspensor description the way you did.

The transport option should include the Valkyrie, since that seems to be a pretty definite thing.

I still think hellguns should be reworked.

foil7102 wrote:Clams, ap - is a huge drawback! What is the difference between

str 5 ap 6
and
str 5 ap -
??????????

Run both guns againt the side of a chimera, or a land speeder, or any other av10 or av11 vehical. Then get back to me. ap- means still good against troops, but not so good against tanks.

Yeah except that has nothing to do with comparing S5/AP- to S4/Ap5. They're roughly equal against vehicles (which you wouldn't be shooting anyways), but S5 is better against all other units in all other scenarios except for GEQs standing the middle of a field. And that happens all the time, right?

No, seriously, right?

sourclams wrote:I seriously don't understand how people see raising the AP from 5 to - as some sort of drawback.

How many armies would actually be affected by the difference in AP? 3 total?

But if we're going to try to make the claim that S5/AP- is exactly the same thing as S4/Ap5, well, this to me looks flat out false.

"Above edited for clarity"

Sorry, but I was just trying to explain how ap - is a draw back. As far as your other argument that S5/ap- is the same as S4/ap5... I don't think that anyone is making that statement. I think that everyone agrees that s5 is better than s4. The argument is that S5/ap- is worth two points compared to S4/ap5 . I would Pay 10points for a stormie with a s5/ap- gun. I would also pay 8 points for a stormie with a s4/ap5 gun. I would even think about paying 8 points for a stormie with a str3 assault 3 gun (my favorite suggestion so far by the way). What I would not do is pay 10 points for a stormie with a S4/ap5 gun.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:Suspensor Mounts: Certain Special and Heavy Weapons have been modified to allow Storm Troopers to fire on the move. All Rapid Fire weapons may elect to fire as an Assault 1 weapon up to the maximum range of the weapon, and all Heavy X weapons may elect to fire as an Assault X, at half range (i.e., the Heavy Stubber may fire as Heavy 3 at 36” or as Assault 3 at 18”).

I really like this. I agree the sniper rifle shouldn't be in there, as I can't coneptualize a stormtrooper kicking down a door and going for 1337 headshots, but this rule makes them distinctly 'elite' while providing mobile firepower for a decent cost.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that rule, I just think its a bit round about, how you wrote it. Make the heavy stubber the only weapon with a suspensor, in the traditional sense, and make the other weapons similarly so by virtue of a different rule header. Like having the same rule but calling "Close Engagement Tactics" or some Imperium latin giberish about how they come from the Schola ------icus. Simplify it to just that even if they make a normal move they can make a single shot at maximum range.

Digging Corpsman's rules, though I'm not super keen on the heavy stubber/flamer/sniper rule, though I could live with it.

Sorry, forgot to mention that Sniper Rifles may not use the "Suspensor Mount."

The rule was put in there so that the squad could shoot on the fly, not so that they could act like a high-mobility sniper team.

Basically, Plasma Guns are Assault 1, and Heavy Stubbers are Assault 3 at 18" or Heavy 3 at 36". No Sniper Assault shots.

CK

Corpsman,IMHO i think the proposed idea makes them a little to powerful. I like frazzleds idea of S3AP3. I've noticed frazz has a natural nack of looking for balance. Just needs to tweek the profile a little.

How about this .......Hellgun R18" S3 AP3 Assault 2. (or maybe AP4)Maybe give the gun a frag launcher for a few extra pts that makes the gun rending.
Dump the snipers and heav weapons. With the hell pistols(normal range) give them chainswords at +1strength.
Also, give them a new coverfire gun "the autoshot"or "Hellshot", A range 18 S4 AP-assault 4 automatic shotgun with a new coverfire rule(any wounds suffered from it halves your opponents initiative. These are the kind of things I envision when I hear the words Storm Troopers.

As far as increasing the strength, to Tau like and way to cheap compared to the Tau(10 pts for Ws2 Bs3 S3 T3 A1 I2 Sv4+ with no deepstrike, infiltrate, assault weapons, cc weapons of any type, or heav weapons options for the FW)

I would have to disagree in that I believe AP3 is way too nasty for something that is supposed to be a beefy Lasgun. In addition, with the propensity of Cover Saves in 5th, I believe that Storm Troopers are going to see more utility out of an improved rate of fire, which brings us to the autoshot:

Str4 AP4? That will halve your initiative if you are wounded by it? Isn't that a little too good for 10points apiece? I think that Storm Troopers should have the ability to be midrange riflemen as well as CQB specialists, but giving them +1Str chainswords and what is effectively a pair of Bolters as standard equipment seems a little too good -- certainly more powerful than the configuration I tried to give them.

Here's a sample unit from the entry I created for Storm Troopers:

Storm Trooper Squad (10) - 138pts
Storm Trooper Sergeant w/ Storm Bolter, Operandi Imperialis
Storm Troopers (9) w/ Plasma Gun (2), Heavy Stubber

The above is a medium-range fire team that can provide a decent amount of antipersonnel while being capable of dealing with heavier infantry. This squad would struggle with heavier armor.

Firepower Output:
2 Storm Bolter shots
3 Heavy Stubber shots
2 Plasma Gun shots
12 Hellgun shots

Here's a close-engagement version:

Storm Trooper Squad (10) - 150pts
Commissariat Lieutenant w/ Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Meltabombs
Storm Troopers (9) w/ Flamethrower (2), Heavy Flamer, Shotgun (6)

This unit, designed for dense terrain, would be a nasty little unit to deal with in the rear of your army. Outflanking with this squad into a terrain feature on the fringe of the board would make for a fun burnfest. The Commissariat LT's high Leadership of 10 would keep them from running, and the 3 Template weapons and Shotguns would tear up most units, followed by a mop-up round of Assault from the LT's power weapon. The points cost may be a bit high for this unit due to the Commissariat Lieutenant, but that's what the regular Sergeant and the Operandi Imperialis is for.

Firepower Output:
12 Shotgun shots (Str4 AP-)
2 Flamethrower Templates
1 Heavy Flamer Template
1 Bolt Pistol shot

* * * * *

I hope that better explains my proposed Unit Entry.

CK

Sorry about the word give. It would be of course an upgrade that you pay for.

Everything else......AP3? I like that the S3 keeps it from over powering and the range and rof combination are a good balance. IG already full of ranged riflemen, was trying to put the Storm back in the Storm troopers.Your Probably right about the AP5 Just figured that the S3 whould keep the ap in check. I still like the my idea for a grenade launcher option, though.

The auto sho was AP- and would be a new special weapon, maybe a 1 per squad thing.

As far as 10 pts per model, it can go up if it means a truly effective squad of glory boys. Figured the cost would balance out with the upgrade purchases.

The buyable upgrades I hadn't worked the mathout so I didn't give a price but the ideas seemed more in line than giving them heavies. They also would still have access to the meltas,plas, flamers, and such.Just my opinion though.

Do you like any of the weapon ideas, at least in concept?

Back to the original topic,The storm troopers serve the same(and do a good job as such) purpose as my 2-3 man team of crisises that I load with meltas for about the same points cost.
I deep strike them behind enemy tanks, Pop the tank(unless I roll bad) then the squad gets munched because an enemy in your backfield becomes THE priority target.

But the problem is right now they don't do that, because H-Vets do that job better.

5 Storm Troopers w/2 BS4 Meltaguns + Drop Troops = 75 Points
5 Hardened Veterans w/3 BS4 Meltaguns + Drop Troops = 75 Points

Now, if we ignore the fact that H-Vets are Target Number 1 for the GW Nerfcannon come the new Codex, we're left with two units that are doing the same role, only one is much better than the other.

Storm Troopers are the Guard version of Delta Force/SAS. They are special forces, and need to be treated as such. A bunch of grizzled infantryman can't be better than them.

BYE

Hey H.M.B.C., did you peruse the storm trooper concept that I mentioned? Would like to benefit from your IG experience. Im really fond of the idea of a coverfire rule for the IG and for a new SAW(squad assault weapon).

As it stands the rules for veterans and storm troopers make the two very similar in how they lend themselves to be used. There really should be more distinction between the two, aside from a better armor save or an extra special weapon.

First, there should be a seperation of roles, Storm troopers are supposed to be heavy infantry, they should not have infiltrate. On the other hand Veteran units are often the units sent on recon or sent ahead of the main force, thus they should be the ones to have infiltrate, with storm troopers having deep strike exclusively. On some level I am tempted to say Storm Troopers should lose chimeras as an option and be relegated to only getting to choose Valkeries, but I don't believe in limiting play style. I think putting heavy weapons and sniper rifles into storm trooper squads only further confuses roles. Looking at the proposed structure of 3 speacial weapons or 2 special weapons and mobile heavy weapon, I think the first fits storm troopers while the latter fits veterans.

(Second) Another important distinction between storm troopers and veterans is "by the book" vs battlefield experiance. This is something that'd be hard to represent I think. Lets just say there are more gnarled up guardsmen with big knives in veteran squads than in storm trooper squads. This difference in battlefield knowledge or styles might be represented by veterans being able to self organize into fire teams or combat squads of any size while stormtroopers are limited to following the marine style combat squads. Storm troopers are breaking into the by the book squad formations while veterans might allow their sniper or heavy bolter weilding squad mate run off on his own to cause trouble.

I said this in another thread, but I think it fits here as well:

aka_mythos wrote: I think it'd be more interesting to run with the idea that a veteran squad is effectively the remnants of a platoon that went through the grinder. 50 went in 10 came out, and those 10 are carrying all the guns. Possibly with a Lt. still leading them, the unit becomes more distinct than stormtroopers.

This kinda plays into the aspect of how equipment defines the units. Storm troopers are given respirators and carapce armor because they are expected to jump out of Valkeries and go into dangerous environmental conditions, something veterans would be ill equiped to do. Storm troopers recieve hellguns because they are expected to go into areas where heavy support isn't always possible, into caves or space hulks that are too cramped for heavy arms. Veterans on the other hand are front line troops, who through the attrition of war have seen their ranks dwindle; their only benefit in all this is the ability to scavenge what they need off their fallen commrades. Veterans are the guardsmen that were either ridiculously lucky or ridiculously tough enough to survive. Veterans might have storm bolters or heavy stubbers, not because they were issued them but because they ripped it off their now smoldering Chimera.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Now, if we ignore the fact that H-Vets are Target Number 1 for the GW Nerfcannon come the new Codex, we're left with two units that are doing the same role, only one is much better than the other.

Hopefully, the hardened vets won't get hit quite as hard with the nerf stick - rather, the "nerfing" will make it so you need to have the full set up of the three special weapons and the one heavy weapons, as opposed to having the unit, in its most powerful form, be "Sarge, three meltas and the the redshirt who will always have the first wound assigned to him cus all he's got's a flashlight."

H.B.M.C. wrote:if we ignore the fact that H-Vets are Target Number 1 for the GW Nerfcannon come the new Codex

Why would GW nerf Hardened vets? They're only a highly customizable unit with no official models.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:if we ignore the fact that H-Vets are Target Number 1 for the GW Nerfcannon come the new Codex

Why would GW NOT nerf Hardened vets? They're only a highly customizable unit with no official models.

Fixed your quote.

I think veterans will either get a re-imagining rules wise and actual models, or they're gonna be heavily nerfed. They don't have all that much going for them any ways. The problem with being IG is when you're already on the bottom you expect everything to make it worse.

I bet we'll see some metal IG veterans to go with updated rules and that they'll probably get abilities similar to the marine scouts and bike scouts.

Looking at thw new SM codex I don't think the vets will get overly nerfed. More like a clarification of rolls.
As it stands hardened vets dont get deep strike without doctrine where storms do. A further defining would help, give the storms access to warrior weapons(chainswords)and improved tactica (some special rule to make them special)due to their training.

I'm inclined to say veterans are the ones more likely to get warrior weapon options. I might be biased by my view of what I think veterans should be, but I think they will get lasgun, laspistol, and close combat weapon as standard, with the option to upgrade different weapons. Veterans are uber line guardmen, while storm troopers are something entirely different.

Well, I was reading my copy of the Imperial Munitorum Manual....


And came across the entery for Hellgun. To paraphrase:

1. Hellgun fires *more* rapidly than a normal lasgun
2. Hellgun is able to penetrate armor better than a normal lasgun
3. Hellgun is about as powerful as a normal lasgun.


So, I am going to have to say that 18" Str3 ap5 Assault3 really sounds good to me.

The idea that ST need Str5 to handle higher toughness targets, seems to forget that ST can also take Plasma/melta guns to do that.

I agree with BoxAnt, Str3 ap5, assault 3. THe question is, at what cost?

... well easy answer look for an army with a simmilar set up ... DireAvengers are nearly the same. so 12pts? may be 13-14 since they get one more shot

Keep the 12 pts, the avengers have better physical stats.

If something is worth twice (or more) the cost of the basic unit, it better be worth twice as much.

Is a 12 point Stormtrooper more durable than a 5-6 point Guardsmen? Not really. 4+ save doesn't mean much in this day and age, not with 4+ cover saves floating around everywhere. They're both T3. They're both W1.

So what makes them worth 12 points each? Especially when they're non-scoring?

BYE

I don't know if its proper for a non-heavy weapon to be a 3 shot weapon. By virtue of bumping it from Rapid Fire to Assault you are establishing the representation of a higher rate of fire. By making it assault 3, not only is it without precedent, but also its a redundant representation of the feature you're trying to portray. Maybe I'm missing something, but is there a single assault 3 weapon that isn't either something restricted to an IC?

I have no problem with a R24 S3 AP5 Assault 2 hellgun, but bumping it up to assault 3 is putting it in the league of weapons that have cyclic rates in the thousands of shots per minute instead of the hundreds of shots that a decently accurate weapon would have to maintain ease of aiming.

I went and pulled out my copy of the same text Imperial Munitorum Manual, just to check what was being paraphrased. I don't disagree with it, I however disagree with how you're trying to represent it. First I think there is a bit much to be well represented. The traits of the hell gun are that it:
1) Fires "full auto"
2) Has improved Armor Piercing
3) Has greater Stopping power against unarmored targets
4) Is gyro stabilized

Relative to a lasgun (1) should be represented only by making it "assault." The improved armor piercing is also already covered with AP 5. That leaves (3), where if 40k weren't limited to a scale of 10 a hellgun would be the next point higher than a lasgun for that reason I toss it in with (4). When you look at (1), (3), and (4) together I think it becomes appropriate to give the weapon "twin linked," since it (1) has a higher volume of fire, (3) higher lethality, (4) made more accurate by a component of its mechanism.

Hellgun:
R24 S3 AP5 Assault 2, Twin Linked

I think this is appropriate not just for the above reasons, but also because it mirrors the relationship between marines and terminators, bolters and storm bolter drawing a parallel "elite" status between guard and storm trooper. This is fitting because storm troopers are deployed on much of the same sort of missions terminators are.

I do believe outside the context of the hellgun the Storm Troopers need some thing else to make them better and distinctive. I think giving them the third special weapon option and nerfing the Veteran squads inherent third choice is a step in the right direction. Veteran squads should then get some other equally worthwhile option.

EDIT: I think any Storm trooper that exceeds 10pts is a hard sell to make worth while. Storm Troopers should come out to 55pts for 5 storm troopers, get one flamers free (may upgrade at cost), have deep strike built in, and have the better hellguns, with the option of paying 55 points for another 5 storm troopers with two more upgradable flamers.

H.B.M.C.,It would be the weaponry that raised their value. If you dont think assault 3, access to high ap assault weapons, deepstrike, and any other special gifts that the troopers will get is worth 12 pts then your not looking for a balanced army.
Compare assault 3 range 18" str 3 ap 5 troopers
to Tau assault 1 range 18 str 5 ap 5 pathfiders
plus access to reasonably priced hero killers.

Yes it compares elites to fast attack. Elites "should" cost more and "should" have more punch. As an opposing player I think the Troopers should have more punch.

By definition "Storm Troopers" are infiltration and assault specialist. Make them your assault and warrior weapon toting Dealta force with move through cover, infiltrate, deep strike, and (what the heck) for the appropriate pts put them in power armor. Make them elite, not just another guard unit.

Give the cover fire tactic I mentioned earlier to the vetrans. Take away their infiltrate and make them a company of seargents with access to seargent wargear and or 2 hvy weapons per squad.

Doctor Thunder wrote:Why would GW nerf Hardened vets? They're only a highly customizable and supremely hyper-efficient unit with no official models.

Yup, question's answered!

just had a funny idea storm troopers are ment to be the toughest a human can be without becoming a SM? Why not give the guys Feel no Pain ... with T3 & 4+ save its not over kill but against small arms fire they'll live longer then regular guardsmen

If they had cranial implants, I could see FNP. But these are still humans with good gear, so USRs shouldn't really be used.

aka_mythos wrote:I don't know if its proper for a non-heavy weapon to be a 3 shot weapon. By virtue of bumping it from Rapid Fire to Assault you are establishing the representation of a higher rate of fire. By making it assault 3, not only is it without precedent, but also its a redundant representation of the feature you're trying to portray. Maybe I'm missing something, but is there a single assault 3 weapon that isn't either something restricted to an IC?

Tau Burst Cannon

To be honest, either Assault3 18" or Assault2 24" would be great. Assault2 24" (although not as much punch) would a) be IG version of stormbolter b) allow for better short range skirmishing, that is to say, you would not be in range of a responding rapidfire.

As for the cost of the unit, i basically comes down to two options.

1) 10 pts, for basically the same thing we have now + new hellgun + free deepstrike and infiltrate. I think this would make ST a very cost effective unit.

2) bump price to 12pts, but add abilities. The question is what abilities?

a) Veteran abilities that you pick at start of battle: Tank Hunter, Counter-charge, scout, stealth, move through cover, furious charge, night vision, ect Or something like that. Basically give you another option to help face certain targets.

b) Give them access to 3 special weapons, make it so they can reroll their dice to see if they come in that turn, and reroll dice to scatter, ect.

c) something else




One thing to keep in mind is that if they become more powerful (which looks like will be the case if any of the options being thrown around happen) then the option to tkae ST as Troops should be limited or removed.

If we want ST to be the IG badasses then imo they should be limited in number to represent this. And I would rather have a hard cap on their number than have them simply be priced so high that you would never want to field them.

Storm troopers I don't see infiltrating as much as deep striking or coming in on Valkyries. They certainly shouldn't have power armor. Delta force isn't really a move through cover sort of task force either, so if that's what we should shoot for some need to read up more.
I think when you make the comparison to Pathfinders it only shows how much Storm troopers should only be 10pts. As its been established, S5 significantly better than S3. There is little or no chance of storm troopers having something that's assault 3, its unprecedented.
Access to a weapon should not be considered as part of the price of the unit, the price of that weapon is the price of that weapon.

Pathfinders have marklights, carbines, scout.
Stormtrooper have hellguns, and better BS.

Everything else a storm trooper has is or will likely be paid for separately.

I think there is a possibility that that storm troopers lose infiltrate and that the only way they will be able to deep strike will be on Valkyries.

BoxANT wrote: As for the cost of the unit, i basically comes down to two options.

1) 10 pts, for basically the same thing we have now + new hellgun + free deepstrike and infiltrate. I think this would make ST a very cost effective unit.

2) bump price to 12pts, but add abilities. The question is what abilities?

a) Veteran abilities that you pick at start of battle: Tank Hunter, Counter-charge, scout, stealth, move through cover, furious charge, night vision, ect Or something like that. Basically give you another option to help face certain targets.

b) Give them access to 3 special weapons, make it so they can reroll their dice to see if they come in that turn, and reroll dice to scatter, ect.

c) something else

I want option 1) but with the option to purchase 3 special weapons.

Also, I don't think they should have veteran abilities. Just because someone comes out of the Schola Progenium doesn't mean they are a veteran. To a degree, I see Storm Troopers as being a little less delta force a little more like army rangers, in that they're better because of extra training and not necessarily from participating in a lot of battle. This is what I was talking about before in discussing the blurring of lines between Hardened Veterans and Storm Troopers. Veteran and elite are not synonymous, thus storm trooper should not necessarily receive the benefits of being veterans. That is just one of a couple distinction that need to be kept in mind.

focusedfire wrote:Tau Burst Cannon

True enough. I acknowledge that, but its how big and requires what size of a model to carry it? I did speak in correctly, but I do believe it to be less than firm footing for storm troopers to receive hellguns that drastic.

Just wikipedia storm trooper and you'll see why they should have the infiltrate and everything else. And Delta force move through cover depends on mission and theater of operation. As to weapon or access to such not defining cost, tell it to the Tau.

Storm Troopers bs 4 wounds a third more per shot, str 3 50% less effective in given rolls,assault 2 twice as many shots at 24" range getting 6" range advantage (assault 3 at 18" is equal range) deep strike,infiltrate, and not required to take overpriced transport.
Pathfinders bs3 wounds third less, strth 5 wounds twice as much per shot( as soon as troopers get assault 2 at 24" advantage is to troopers). Carbines have range 18" assault 1. Also have yet to pin with the 'finders carbines(I play a lot of templars and SMs). While shooting markers the unit is causing no actual casualties, just insreasing the chance that another unit might. Also, pathfinders are 12 pts each, team leader adds 10 more points, and you still haven't bought grenades or the overpriced transport.

Originally the burst cannon was on a model not much more than an infantryman. Also, How much recoil does a laser have vs plasma pulse?

A lot of elite forces will not let you join fresh out of basic. You have to have some level of experience, this is represented in the vet stats.

My mental image of the two is:
Vets-2nd tour vietnam grunt.
Troopers-Special ops vietnam
Can be any war just the best visual I could come up with at this moment.

Also the storm troopers should have a rule, ability, or really spiferdoodle weapon that causes the rest of the IGs rancor towards them.

Just because GW borrows a name from something real doesn't mean we should expect it to be a direct translation of that unit.

This that should be and things that are, are often two different things. I'm saying that just having an option shouldn't cost anything. How it shouldn't be: in the old marine codex it never made sense that Shrike's Wing's cost was based on the fact they could deep strike and infiltrate, and you effectively paid for both abilities despite only ever being able to use one. How it should be: you could look at the space marine codex as taking that approach, the fact that a razorback can take other weapons is no longer included in its cost, but all its weapons are noticeably more expensive. Options that a person doesn't take shouldn't be included in their cost; maybe they are but they shouldn't be.

Elite is not veteran, they are not synonymous. This is why I drew the parallel to the Army Rangers as opposed to Delta force, relatively new soldiers can go through Rangers training, but even this has little to do with storm troopers. Simply put the IG does not have a delta force equivalent, because if some unit like delta force were needed they'd call space marines.

Storm troopers are drawn from, the war orphans of imperial officers and from the aristocracy of worlds. There doesn't appear to be any requirement of service to get to a point where a guardsmen becomes a storm trooper. Storm Troopers are storm troopers in the same way a cadet out of West Point becomes an officer. It is merely an advantage of their schooling and societal rank that they are storm troopers.

As I said before it is important to distinguish storm troopers from hardened veterans because they are not the same thing. While storm troopers may be veterans it isn't a requirement.

When it comes to comparing Tau path finders to storm troopers, remember we are talking about a hypothetical 5th edition unit rule set as opposed to a ill conceived 4th edition tau unit, that I think needs tweaking.

A plasma pulse at least as far as modern scientists theorized was seen as an intermediate step to a rail gun, that utilizes some of the technologies necessary for a rail gun combined with more conventional fire arm tech but at a lower power level. A plasma burst is generated to engulf a propel a solid projectile down a lmagnetically low charged rail. It would have a recoil in between a fire arm and a railgun. A laser, would have little or no recoil.

Hence my point that assault 3 is not out of the question on the hellgun because of no recoil. I'm an opposing player thats pushing for Guard elites to be nastier, but if you want to argue...............suurrre, keep the gun weaker.

Yes a hypothetical 5th ed that I think it'd be neat to see some very grunt or army based special rules. Such as a cover or supressor fire rule for either squad then "not" the other.

Again, I ask, in this dream rule set is there anything that I proposed as special weapons or rules you could see as beneficial? If so, Which squads would you give them to or how would you tweek them?

I absolutely agree about a further defining, its why I think going back to the traditional definition will help. What this defining will lead to is one squad as an assault team and the other as ranged.Which is why I see them getting an assault 18" ranged weapon.

Vets would be more skilled in set up of fields of fire and how to hit enemy armour. 2 lascannons in a squad with tankhunters?

My personal experience in the military, was that the west pointers were better leaders than some rotc party boy that couldn't find a regular world job in their major so the military was their failsafe.
And training and education are the primary factors in the ranks up to seargent. Its why people graduate tech school at E-5.

Your having the choice deep strike or infiltrate effects how your opponent plans his deployment and builds his army. It's logical that its built into the cost.

The idea of Veteran abilities was not so much to show that the Storm Troopers actually actually veterans, but more to show that the ST are equiped/specialized to take out a certain type of target for that mission.

I think ST should be able to adapt to your opponent and be able to specialize in taking out a certain targets. Be it armor, high toughness, infantry, ect.

Make them kinda like scouts bikers, in as much that they come with special rules that allow for disruption and confusion amongst the enemy.

focusedfire wrote:I absolutely agree about a further defining, its why I think going back to the traditional definition will help. What this defining will lead to is one squad as an assault team and the other as ranged.Which is why I see them getting an assault 18" ranged weapon.
...
Vets would be more skilled in set up of fields of fire and how to hit enemy armour. 2 lascannons in a squad with tankhunters?
...
My personal experience in the military, was that the west pointers were better leaders than some rotc party boy that couldn't find a regular world job in their major so the military was their failsafe.
And training and education are the primary factors in the ranks up to seargent. Its why people graduate tech school at E-5.
Your having the choice deep strike or infiltrate effects how your opponent plans his deployment and builds his army. It's logical that its built into the cost.

I don't see the Hardend Veterans neccesarily being ranged combat specialists. I kinda see things flipped around a bit. Storm troopers, are mobile ranged combat. Hardend Veterans should represent the unit flexible and adaptable in the way they're kitted out and their ability to deal with different threats. Don't get me wrong, Storm Troopers should be good, but between Hardend Veterans and Storm Troopers, I see the Veterans being more flexible and maliable in their composition. I think giving Vet's "tank hunter" or something similar is appropriate, but I think the days of the pick and pay abilities are gone.

On your point of military leadership, I was only making an analogy to how storm troopers get to being storm troopers, not any sort of dis on the west pointers. I just think that analogy does the best at showing why and how storm troopers are better.

I agree that abilities should be included in the cost of a unit. Its the redundancy of abilities and the redundancy of that cost that are at issue. If you had a unit that can choose to infiltrate or deepstrike, do you go +1pt for one +2 for the other and make them built in costs at +3pts, even though the flexability is not worth +3pts, but +2pts at best? When you have two built in options you should only be charged for the best, especially when it can only be used to the exclusion of the other. I see a move away from this sort of pricing and I think SM sgts are an example.

BoxANT wrote:The idea of Veteran abilities was not so much to show that the Storm Troopers actually actually veterans, but more to show that the ST are equiped/specialized to take out a certain type of target for that mission.
...
I think ST should be able to adapt to your opponent and be able to specialize in taking out a certain targets. Be it armor, high toughness, infantry, ect.

I'm not really sure how much specialized equipment they'd get. It seems a bit contradictory to call them specialist and adaptable, it seems like what you're trying to say is they are all around better. This very well may be the case, but what abilities do storm troopers have, whether due to their skill or equipment, that exceed a space marine.

aka_mythos wrote:I don't see the Hardend Veterans neccesarily being ranged combat specialists. I kinda see things flipped around a bit. Storm troopers, are mobile ranged combat. Hardend Veterans should represent the unit flexible and adaptable in the way they're kitted out and their ability to deal with different threats. Don't get me wrong, Storm Troopers should be good, but between Hardend Veterans and Storm Troopers, I see the Veterans being more flexible and maliable in their composition. I think giving Vet's "tank hunter" or something similar is appropriate, but I think the days of the pick and pay abilities are gone.

On your point of military leadership, I was only making an analogy to how storm troopers get to being storm troopers, not any sort of dis on the west pointers. I just think that analogy does the best at showing why and how storm troopers are better.

I agree that abilities should be included in the cost of a unit. Its the redundancy of abilities and the redundancy of that cost that are at issue. If you had a unit that can choose to infiltrate or deepstrike, do you go +1pt for one +2 for the other and make them built in costs at +3pts, even though the flexability is not worth +3pts, but +2pts at best? When you have two built in options you should only be charged for the best, especially when it can only be used to the exclusion of the other. I see a move away from this sort of pricing and I think SM sgts are an example.

BoxANT wrote:The idea of Veteran abilities was not so much to show that the Storm Troopers actually actually veterans, but more to show that the ST are equiped/specialized to take out a certain type of target for that mission.
...
I think ST should be able to adapt to your opponent and be able to specialize in taking out a certain targets. Be it armor, high toughness, infantry, ect.

I'm not really sure how much specialized equipment they'd get. It seems a bit contradictory to call them specialist and adaptable, it seems like what you're trying to say is they are all around better. This very well may be the case, but what abilities do storm troopers have, whether due to their skill or equipment, that exceed a space marine.

Its the idea that you assume a hardened vet is some how automatically this close combat assault type. The majority of surviving vets will have never seen CC and even if hardened means that they have survived such it doesn't mean they are assaulters themselves. Just that they have survived being assaulted in a defensible position. Easier ot explain knowledge of CC as training oriented, therefor troopers. Also, look at their standard weapon load outs. Special ops gets special weapons,hence troopers.

If you want to swap the rolls then theres no reason for them to even get the assault hellgun you were talking about.

Yes, Storm Troopers are better and should have the weaponry, equipment, and tactics to reflect such. Something like a SoB without the bolter. A stat line like this:
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 I3 A1 Ld9 Sv 3+ With a S3 AP5 assault weapon.
You'd like a TL assault 2 range 24" . I like assault 3 range 18"or optional hellpistols and chainswords. I, would easily give up assault 3 for frag launch option that made hell guns rending. We both agree on 3 special weapons a squad, I just would like to see a new Trooper specific special weapon named the Hellshot to lay down suppressor fire. Either way at 12-14 pts a model still a bargain when you include deepstrike, infiltrate. You can even keep them as a troop option as far as I care.

You already know the build I like for hardened vets.

As far as built in option price, as a Tau player I agree. Would love it if my stuff cost less.

As to your reply to boxant'
There are more Storm toopers than Sms, Numbers Favour Troopers
They don't have to be genetically modified, Less resources investedw/ Troopers
You don't get just one squad of marines, less logistics w/ Troopers

I could see vets different in having more weaponry; being stubborn (or inversely cowards); and having the ability to shoot at a unit charging them in lieu of CC.

Storm troopers should never get power armor.
A storm trooper specific special weapon would raise questions why it doesn't exist in other better equiped imperial armies.

I don't believe Veterans should be strictly close combat either.

Storm Troopers are mobile ranged combat, they move around and shoot. Veterans I see being a little more like space marine scouts, getting stuck with certain duties that are high risk but don't neccesarily mean direct combat roles. Veterans would do recon and forward observer duties for a platoon, storm troopers would lead a spearhead of direct attack. Veterans would have more variety in their weaponry that would allow them more variation in how they're armed, so that they could be adapted to a number of situations, while storm troopers are out and out the better direct engagement unit.

Agreed. Storms cannot have PA, because that makes them Sisters. Storms have 4+.

aka_mythos wrote:Storm troopers should never get power armor.
A storm trooper specific special weapon would raise questions why it doesn't exist in other better equiped imperial armies.

I don't believe Veterans should be strictly close combat either.

Storm Troopers are mobile ranged combat, they move around and shoot. Veterans I see being a little more like space marine scouts, getting stuck with certain duties that are high risk but don't neccesarily mean direct combat roles. Veterans would do recon and forward observer duties for a platoon, storm troopers would lead a spearhead of direct attack. Veterans would have more variety in their weaponry that would allow them more variation in how they're armed, so that they could be adapted to a number of situations, while storm troopers are out and out the better direct engagement unit.

Storm Troopers already have a specific weapon. Special units get them all the time. Special weapons take special training. which Troopers get and Vets don't .Rest of army resents them as "glory boys" because of their equip and training.

Seems like a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the armour. Instead of Absolutely Not, Explain Why. They already work with SoB, weapons or armor not that big of a stretch. Tweak the storyline a little that the Troopers are a path to becoming an officer for those poor noble children.

Just cause you say Troopers are ranged mobile combat, doesn't make it so. Only thing that makes them that way is thats what the IG does now for everyone, except for basic troops. I thought you wanted them to stand out.

We both see the layout similarly just with different nomenclature. Storms as spearhead, Vets in a position to provide coverfire and heavy squad support with the wieght of the army not to far behind

Vets as similar to Scouts....eehhh....Known, plenty of army vets that couldn't out scout an air force security patrol. But the idea of them more lightly armed & armored I agree with. Problem is the vets should have some better armor and equip than the troops.

Edited 1 time for wording

the major difference is the armor

focusedfire wrote:
Storm Troopers already have a specific weapon. Special units get them all the time. Special weapons take special training. which Troopers get and Vets don't .Rest of army resents them as "glory boys" because of their equip and training.

When I say special weapon, I mean flamer/grenade launcher/plasma gun/meltagun. I also didn't mean they couldn't have such a weapon just that it would have to be justified as far as why they have it and the even more elite Space Marines don't.

focusedfire wrote:
Seems like a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the armour. Instead of Absolutely Not, Explain Why. They already work with SoB, weapons or armor not that big of a stretch. Tweak the storyline a little that the Troopers are a path to becoming an officer for those poor noble children.

Power armor is suppose to be rare. There are 1 Million Space Marines and 100000 Sisters of Battle together they have 99.999% of the imperiums power armor. Now we could stretch it, but when you consider with in the imperium there are Trillions of Imperial guard, of which if even 1% were storm troopers, thats 1 Billion suits of a very rare armor that would be needed. That 1000 times more than what currently exists in the imperium.

focusedfire wrote:
Just cause you say Troopers are ranged mobile combat, doesn't make it so. Only thing that makes them that way is thats what the IG does now for everyone, except for basic troops. I thought you wanted them to stand out.

They reportedly infiltrate and deep strike; they ride around in chimeras and valkyries, if all that isn't mobility I don't know what is. They have better than average ranged weapons and little or no close combat weapons, that sure sounds like they're ranged combat oriented. Hey just because it is that way, doesn't make it so.

focusedfire wrote:
We both see the layout similarly just with different nomenclature. Storms as spearhead, Vets in a position to provide coverfire and heavy squad support with the wieght of the army not to far behind

Vets as similar to Scouts....eehhh....Known, plenty of army vets that couldn't out scout an air force security patrol. But the idea of them more lightly armed & armored I agree with. Problem is the vets should have some better armor and equip than the troops.

When I said similar to scouts I meant in a couple of ways. First, I see scouts as having a wide variety in basic weapon choices, similarly the Hardend Veterans should have that as a defining charcteristic. Second, in the same way scout (bikes) will move ahead and prepare the battle field, I see veterans fulfilling that roll. Third in the same way that scouts play support by providing homing beacons so should veterans play a similar role, maybe callring artillery for example. So when I say similar to scouts I mean only to the degree of some of their specific roles and not necessarily in the actual "scouting" function or in armor. I'm not saying that Veteran recieve all those sorts of abilities just that giving them a couple of them would make them distinguishable from storm troopers in how they're used.

aka_mythos wrote:When I say special weapon, I mean flamer/grenade launcher/plasma gun/meltagun. I also didn't mean they couldn't have such a weapon just that it would have to be justified as far as why they have it and the even more elite Space Marines don't.

Power armor is suppose to be rare. There are 1 Million Space Marines and 100000 Sisters of Battle together they have 99.999% of the imperiums power armor. Now we could stretch it, but when you consider with in the imperium there are Trillions of Imperial guard, of which if even 1% were storm troopers, thats 1 Billion suits of a very rare armor that would be needed. That 1000 times more than what currently exists in the imperium.

They reportedly infiltrate and deep strike; they ride around in chimeras and valkyries, if all that isn't mobility I don't know what is. They have better than average ranged weapons and little or no close combat weapons, that sure sounds like they're ranged combat oriented. Hey just because it is that way, doesn't make it so.

When I said similar to scouts I meant in a couple of ways. First, I see scouts as having a wide variety in basic weapon choices, similarly the Hardend Veterans should have that as a defining charcteristic. Second, in the same way scout (bikes) will move ahead and prepare the battle field, I see veterans fulfilling that roll. Third in the same way that scouts play support by providing homing beacons so should veterans play a similar role, maybe callring artillery for example. So when I say similar to scouts I mean only to the degree of some of their specific roles and not necessarily in the actual "scouting" function or in armor. I'm not saying that Veteran recieve all those sorts of abilities just that giving them a couple of them would make them distinguishable from storm troopers in how they're used.

1) The marines already have the Holy Bolter. Plus S3 Assault whatever, either idea, doesn't equal the bolter. If the grenade launcher rending idea makes it equal well, thats a standard issue marine weapon versus an elite IG. As to the hellsot autoshotgun idea, the marines have been borrowing guns from the IG for a while. If its that good then the SMs will get it eventually. The marines already use a round called hellfire I'd say give them that except they'd have to get the bolter and we all agree that doesn't need to happen.

2) Thank you for the why, its much easier to exchange ideas when getting the thought behind a stance.
How about this: Power armor is designed to inter face with the weares body(kinda why its a waste of resources on SoB but how can you argue with sexy Joan of Arcs). Could say Troopers armor is recently a rediscovered STC carapace that has limted production capacity so they and officers are the only ones to get it. Doesn't have any of the cool, nifty power armour features for interfacing with weapons, strength enhancement, or invulnerables.It could be bulky and slow them down to initiative 2 just as long as there was a coverfire rule to equal it out. OR we could just up their initiative to a 4. Yeah, that would be simpler.

3)I agree that they are mobile. Think your to stuck on the current codex edition as to your view of the troopers. You say they're not worth taking because they don't do as good a job as the vets and that the vets are more versatile. You say this is a problem. Yet every idea to make them truly ditinctive & versatile you dismiss. Codex currently states only Trooper seargents get warrior weapons so it always has to be this way.
Who should be more like the average grunt, vets or Storms? Vets of course, so with Doctrines probably going the way of the do-do in the next edition probably not gonna see a lot of warrior weapon gaurd. As it is now vets get everything, even carapace under doctrines, while the better trained and "equipped" storms actually get less. The reason people don't use the storm troopers is because they don't Storm. Currently, every other codex out where the term storm is used the squad gets CC weapons. I'm hoping that GW fixes the Storms rather than continuing with the same broken, ineffective, &worthless pts waste that they currently are. I'd like to be getting ready for a game with my Tau and see the troopers come out of the case and think "uh-oh, gonna have to do something agout them".

4) You keep refering to making the vets different from the troopers. I, IMHO think the question should be how should a vet squad differ from the standard troop squad? Don't make them to different, just better in some areas. I think the only thing that is to much currently is them getting warrior weapons. Without training how do they suddenly get this. A couple of firefights doesn't make you a Brawler. It makes you learn how to take cover(stealth) how to shoot(the improved bs over standard gaurd) where to shoot from(so, ok, infiltrate) how to lay down effective coverfire(self explanatory) and what targets to shoot(so tank hunters as buyable upgrade). Closest they should get to Warrior weapons is bayonets. Once you've defined the vets then define the troopers as to the needs of the army.

1) Variation on a distinctly IG weapon would probably be the best approach to giving Storm Troopers additional special rules.

2) You're making non-power armor power armor. I think a more appropriate thing is more like your idea of a bonus to initiative. Some sort of battle field awarness HUD computer mounted in their helmet in addition to their targetters would make more sense than strength enhancements.

3) I think they're alright, not bad, not good. I field them. I think they only need moderate changes with a very minimal impact on cost. I'm more in favor of moving veterans away from being similar to storm troopers. I think tying some abilities of storm troopers into the use Valkaries may be another sort of advantage. Some sort of quick repel rule.

4) Vets were troopers once, their distinction is that they were the guys good enough to survive an assault by a wave of Orks, they were the lucky ones who didn't get killed by a plasma explosion. They'd have warrior weapons because after the sgts. in their platoon were blown to pieces they went over and "found" themselves a slightly used chainsword. Other than what you described I think most of any other abilities should be less about their own mojo, and more about supporting platoons and artillery. Called shots, where artillery can fire at a target, using the Vets BS and where indirect fire shots can be fired as if they were direct fire shots as long as the Vets have line of sight. This moves them away from being an IG squad thats remarkable because they have more guns than storm troopers.

I like this middle ground you speak of. We may disagree on the warrior weapons but everything else would definitley be an improvement.

It's probalby to much(I tend to shoot for the stars then let people negotiate me towards a middle point) but an IG rule to where you have to wipe the whole platoon for the KP would be "insanely" delicious.

Saw this picture of WIP Plastic Stormtrooper and noticed that he has a very large shotgun. Could not help but wonder if this perhaps is the Str4 shotgun that SM scouts get. Perhaps instead of improving the Hellgun, they will just give ST access to this better shotgun?

They should have *both*:

- S5 AP- Rapid-Fire Hellguns
- S4 AP- Assault 2 Shotguns

... they will never get S5 AP- guns as standard

GW is more likely to invent a rule that lets them cut down the enemys save (which isn't likely)

Thats one big gun, wonder what i'll do ...must be Str:4

I don't think Str5 is all that unreasonable since its a very confined weapon choice. Lets look at it another way. Str4 Assault 2 shotguns are superior to the hellgun, so we can say they'll be an upgrade costing some additional number of points. In a more practical way they should be relatively equal in value with a trade off for going from the basic armament hellgun to the more specialized shotgun.

I'll be happy if they just give them access to Str4 Shotguns, even if that's the only change they get. They'll actually be somewhat effective at short ranges at that point. Throw in a Power Weapon Sergeant and two Flamethrowers and you've got a decent short-range CQB specialist unit.

CK

Maybe its a shotgun that fires Hellfire rounds

ok there are way GW will give Str:5 as standard ... short range 6-12" ... make it heavy ... gets hot ... or make it cost alot

@Tri: Why are you dead set against Storms having a decent weapon?

A S5 Lasgun doesn't need to be Heavy or Get Hot - at 10 pts per model, they cost plenty enough already.

Keep in mind that the Storm power backpack and hellgun are considerably larger than a Plasma or Meltagun, roughly equal in size to a Plasma, Melta, *and* Flamer combined.

It's a big weapons system.

dead set against Storms having a decent weapon? no ... theres just got to be a balance ... Storms cost what they do because they've got carpace armour ... may be they'll get some other freebees (like infiltrate / deepstrike) but its highly unlikely they get S:5 guns ...

"Keep in mind that the Storm power backpack and hellgun are considerably larger than a Plasma or Meltagun, roughly equal in size to a Plasma, Melta, *and* Flamer combined" wow its got a bigger battery ... its still a lasgun ... if any thing it should have more shots

Under 5E rules, a Guardsman is worth roughly 4 pts.

If you make him BS4 Ld8, he is worth 5 pts.

If you give him Carapace, he is worth 6 pts.

If you let him Deep Strike, then he is worth 8 pts.

But he currently costs 10 pts.

It takes a S5 gun to make him worth his points.

(Off-topic) @John,

So what are Fire warrioirs worth at bs3 ws2 s3 t3 I2 a1 w1 and sv 4+ with pulse rifle?
Just curious.

worth 4pts? debateable ... conscripts at 4pts can cause large problems regular guards ment would be even more so ...

no think the points are about right for what they can do its just they get shafted by the doctrins ...

Tri wrote:worth 4pts? debateable ... conscripts at 4pts can cause large problems regular guards ment would be even more so ...

no think the points are about right for what they can do its just they get shafted by the doctrins ...

Spoken like a tru SPACERS MARINES ROXRS player. Anyone who thinks that stormies are fine at there current points level... Well I would have to question that persons ability to contribute a valid point.

lol, i think they need a tweek ... if you agree with johns 6pts that fine ... IMHO 10pts covers what they get stat line, wargear and gun ..yes they should get the speical rules free

quick compair ...
>firewarriors same cost, must buy grenades, worse Ws, Bs, I, Ld no real gun options... but they get a better standard gun
>dire Avengers cost 2pts more, better WS,I,Ld and standard gun ... but they only get the one gun and no grenades
>SM Scouts cost 5-3pts more (first 5 = 15pts) ...better WS, S, T, I, Ld(but only on the sargent) better standard gun

focusedfire wrote:(Off-topic) @John,

So what are Fire warrioirs worth at bs3 ws2 s3 t3 I2 a1 w1 and sv 4+ with pulse rifle?
Just curious.

Tau have a similar problem as Guard, in that they were created when longer-ranged shooting was far more valuable than it is today, so they similarly overpay for their 30" S5 AP5 guns.

Like Guardsmen, Tau have similar basic effectiveness issues when you consider Boyz are only 6 pts, and Grots are 3 pts. The new Ork Codex really reset the bounds for where "cheap" models should be costed.

Considering their role in the Tau army, I think Fire Warriors are worth 8, maybe 9, pts in their current incarnation. 10 pts, if they can have full-option Gun Drones (I think GW doesn't do nearly enough with Gun Drones as an army and unit differentiator).

All someone has to do is play a grenadier and/or storm trooper heavy list to see you end up over paying for the unit. Comparing them to them to a tau unit will result in a skewed perspective since the comparable tau units have equally flawed pricing. They're a good unit, but they struggle to ever make back their points. They shouldn't be made cheaper, because IG need a unit that much better point wise and ability wise, while leaving characteristic room between human troops and Space marines.

Storm troopers need to be better and they don't need to be marines (HuRR!) to do it.

I like the Idea of a shotgun that fires Hellfire rounds or is S4 with no cover save. Personally think its big enough for the Hellfires. That, IMHO, wouldn't make them SMs.

It hard to argue that currently the basic guardsmen is *not* overpriced. He was fine in 4th, but with 6 point shoota boyz and SM getting all that free stuff, the lowly guardsmen is falling behind :(

Of course, the 10 point stormtrooper was never really good point wise and is only worse now. I do not want to see a point reduction for stormies, would much rather see a power increase. Str4 shotguns would help, but not buffing hellguns would not help all of us with metal stormies :( Again, I would love to see the hellgun be S3 assault2 24". Both the new hellgun and a powerful shotgun would go a long way in making stormies more of a real option.

I can hardly wait for the new codex. The IG player in our group has been very frustrated and mopey since the new edition.

Also hope the storms are really mean seeing as they are a central part of his IG/Inquisition army.

focusedfire wrote:I can hardly wait for the new codex. The IG player in our group has been very frustrated and mopey since the new edition.

Also hope the storms are really mean seeing as they are a central part of his IG/Inquisition army.

Amen to that brother!

Won't the rules use the old Storm Troopers rules in the Witch
Hunters Codex since they have their own entries?

To me that means they need to update the Inq armies!

He quite often runs one or the other with the troopers bouncing between. But both up-dates would be nice.

Don't know if Inq./SoB armies import anything from IG codex for the troopers. Are they completely different?

1. Lower the cost as I suspect will happen in the new codex...
2. Give them an option for underslung grenade launchers like SM honorguard. Makes them pricey but gives an option to add some weight to their fire. (NOY +15 maybe +5)
3. It is an overcharged flashlight... leave it S 3 AP5 but Assault 18" ROF 2. Yes it sucks but 18" is magic in that you can shoot and stay out of charge range of opponent.
Assault makes it mobile as opposed to Rapid Fire. "I get to volume fire once before I die...."

malfred wrote:Won't the rules use the old Storm Troopers rules in the Witch
Hunters Codex since they have their own entries?

To me that means they need to update the Inq armies!

Inq Storms will be poo because that's what their Codex says. Guard will have the "good" Storms. Kind of like SM have the "good" Storm Shields and Cyclone MLs...

Don't hold your breath waiting for Codex: Sisters of Battle and Codex: Inquistion...
____

DAaddict wrote:1. Lower the cost as I suspect will happen in the new codex...
2. Give them an option for underslung grenade launchers like SM honorguard. Makes them pricey but gives an option to add some weight to their fire. (NOY +15 maybe +5)
3. It is an overcharged flashlight... leave it S 3 AP5 but Assault 18" ROF 2.
Assault makes it mobile as opposed to Rapid Fire. "I get to volume fire once before I die...."

1. Lowering the cost still doesn't make them expecially attractive.
2. GLs? Meh. If they were single-shot Plasma cells, I'd be interested.
3. 18" range is still useless, as the all-important Plasmas (or Meltas) are 12" guns.

I have to say the best change to Hellguns I've seen proposed is to make them Rending weapons.

Considering the added punch to get through armor, Rending allows them to get an edge over Infantry Armor as well as Light Armored Vehicles.

- Marty Lund

.... sorry but personaly i think rending on its own is more powerfull then a lasgun ... ok you need to roll a 6 to wound but you manage that you causing a wound no armour saves

edit for post below

...its way too power full an upgrade for a lasgun we're talking about some thing that will mow down everything with a Toughness value it'll happily kill a wrathlord toughness 8

Tri wrote:.... sorry but personaly i think rending on its own is more powerfull then a lasgun ...

Of course - that's because Stormtroopers aren't armed with Lasguns - they are armed with Hellguns, which are supposed to cost more and be more powerful.

ok you need to roll a 6 to wound but you manage that you causing a wound no armour saves

Which is exactly the effect they should have - penetrating armor. Hellguns are designed for armor penetration. They come with a ridiculous backpack power-supply specifically to facilitate armor penetration.

I suppose if I didn't have to pick a USR, I would just treat anything shot with a Hellgun as if it had -1 AV and -1 Sv for that attack. You get the same Math-hammer results against AV10 and MEQ as Bolters do. You exchange equal kill-ratios with Sisters of Battle (3.33 per 20 shots) and still die in a straight up fire-fight to Spzz Marines. You are slightly worse than Bolter-wielders at killing 5+ Armor Save units like other IG and Eldar Guardians.

- Marty Lund

Actually, in the earlier Fluff, the power pack was to increase the weapon Strength...

Then throw a grenade launcher on the hellgun that makes it rending. Would that work?

Rending Blasts?

Yes, that'd do just fine. I'd definitely take Storms.

I hope I am not jumping into someone's kool-aid and not knowing the flavor. I love stormtroopers (ST)! The models look cool and I like the fluff of them being a special forces type of unit. But if I could write the rules for the new codex it would be something like this; stats would be the same but the hellgun would be a str 3 ap 4 assault 2 with a 24 inch range. The hellpistol would be str 3 ap 4. This would allow the ST to take on the renegade ST and the Tau fire warriors. I would also give all models both a hellgun and a hellpistol with a close combat weapon. Now to show that these guys are elites I would give them the rending special rule for the first turn of combat and only if they assaulted. If they get caught off guard they don't get it. The other big change I would give them is to let one of them be upgraded to a medic. Think about it, most special forces units in the real world have their own medics.

Now you have a unit that can shoot well (BS4), has a good save (4+), can take out most other armies basic troops without an armor save (AP 4), get a bonus for being offensive (Special Rule of mine), and have a medic to help heal them.

So what does everyone think?

the real problem is the weapons strength. STR 3 is just plain crap for the "elite" of the imperial guard and who also are extensively used by inquisitors.

i would be happy with STR 4 AP - 10 points
5-10 models 3 special weapons infiltrate and deep strike included and keeping targeters .

@glow: S4 AP- is like a Shotgun, and might as well be a Bolter for the points. That is why I like S5 AP- as something different.

Ok how about increasing the chances of causeing a wound with that str 3? hell guns get a reroll on failed wounds?

If you need to increase the chance of causing a wound, increased S is the easiest way to do that.

Lately, I have been getting this cold throbbing ache in my gut. I think it is telling me that GW isn't going to change the Hellgun at all...

They are just gonna give the the option to take shotguns (the S3 ap- assault2) version, and call it a day :|

Or perhaps, if we are *really* lucky, we will get the S4 shotgun.




But honestly, with all thse "uber" hellguns everyone is talking about, i think we are forgetting something. The new ST will have the option for shotguns (previously linked photo), so the Hellgun must be somewhat equal in power to the shotgun (again, hopefully the S4 ap- version), otherwise no one would take the shotgun (or if the Hellgun *was* so much better, it would increase the point cost a lot).


Here is my final guess:

Hellgun either S3 ap5 assault2 24" (or remains unchanged).
Shotgun S4 ap- assault2 12" (or if GW hates us, the S3 version).