I just talked to Nate from Bit Kingdom. I got an email from him regarding a "Inner Circle Membership"

Here is the gist of this inner circle membership:

Cost: $50/month
Minimum Membership Time: None
Benefit: Able to buy GW products at 42% off
Maximum Order amount: TBD - Nate has not set a number yet, but it might be $2,000 or so (I don't know if this is per month/year per person per membership)
Ways to get out of the Inner Circle:
1) Can trade/sell membership to someone else. For example, I pay $50 for membership and buy $1,000 worth of stuff. I don't plan on anything else for the next 20 years. I sell my member ship for $25 to Jimbo. He has ownership of the membership and can buy GW products at 42% retail. After he uses the membership, he also has the option to trade/sell. And so on...
2) Can be the "buyer" for your gaming group. If you are part of a large gaming group, you can have everyone buy from you. They can either help pay for the membership or potentially only get a 35% discount while you keep the 7% as your fee for doing all the processing.
Shipping Costs: Will be at actual cost. No free shipping for orders over $66 like Bitkingdom's normal orders.
Number of Memberships available: 50
Available: Dec. 10 (this wednesday) at 11:00am EST.

Obviously this inncer circle membership is for people buying in bulk. Nate regularly sells products at around 30% off. With the 42% off benefit, that 12% difference would have to equal $50. That means you would have to buy $416.67 of GW products to break even (assuming you didn't sell the membership).

What do you all think of this idea? It only makes sense if you were part of a large gaming group and buying a lot of product, but it seems like a great discount.

Sounds great from a pocketbook perspective. Sounds terrible if you have an FLGS you actually enjoy playing at. Sounds to be outside of what I have, admittedly anecdotally and fourth hand, heard of GW's selling policies.

Now, if it included Forge World, I would be all over it like flies on a turd. A big resin turd. Because my FLGS sells exactly the square root of feth all FW product, so no loss to him.

It seems like a great deal. I myself would be wary for BK's ability to keep up with demand, having had a 3 month ordeal which finally was finally but poorly resolved.

VermGho5t wrote:It seems like a great deal. I myself would be wary for BK's ability to keep up with demand, having had a 3 month ordeal which finally was finally but poorly resolved.

I see I wasn't the only one then. I had placed an order in August that was finally resolved just a few weeks ago. While I might order again from him in the future, it won't be for a long time, and I'd need some firm time frame of when items were going to shipped out rather than a simple "oh we should get it next week and it'll be shipped then" run around.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like paying MSRP on GW's stuff anymore than the next guy. But it's this kind of thing that is crippling the FLGS. We just had the only store in town selling GW stuff to close up shop. The next FLGS is over an hour away. So not only would I have to leave town to buy something, if I wanted to look at it first, but I lost the only place I could regularly go and have a game of WH40k.

For the record, the other stores I can go to an hour away have all relocated and have 25% of the stock they had in their old stores. Worse than that, they both now have zero space for actual games to be played.

I've ordered two shipments from Bitkingdom. I think they were relatively early on when it was first starting and I got everything within a week with no problems. However, I have heard of a couple of people having delays in their shipments.

Is anyone going to participate in this Inner circle? Fortunately for me, a FLGS just opened up in Chicago (finally) and although it would be a lot of savings, I would like to support the FLGS as much as possible. Plus $400 of GW stuff is a lot of stuff! This really is targeted for gaming groups.

Also, has anyone else notice how many bitz/discount GW sites have opened up in the past 6-months to a year? I just got back into the hobby after starting it in 1996ish, but it seems like after Battlewagon bitz went down, a lot of other sites (besides the Warstore) sprang up to provide bitz and discount GW.

I'm sure they are making money, but at some point, you would think margins would decline significantly if everyone starts providing a higher and higher discount.

I worked briefly in a hobby shop selling some GW stuff a few years ago. Until the store owner decided to drop hobbies/gaming and only sell cheap toys. I saw the list cost from GW on what the store bought it for. In most all cases it was 50% of the MSRP. Now, thinking about that, you know GW is going to make a profit, so you can almost safely assume that the cost of making a GW item is at least 25% of MSRP or less. It really made me gag when I saw this. So given the 42% discount the OP is mentioning, the store/buyer is still making profit. Not enough to keep the lights on but profit none the less.

So let me understand. I pay $50 a month so I can get a discount on other things I buy that month? I have to spend over $400 a month to break even?

No thanks.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

If you're that desperate to buy all your army men wholesale, it's it shouldn't be that difficult to file for your own Tax ID # and set up your own account with a distributor. I doubt they would charge you $50 a month, but they would probably have minimum orders.. I can't imagine that minimum would be too bad. I did that very thing about 15 years ago, me and a friend wanted to buy our MTG cards wholesale then we started selling them online and eventually got a GW account too. It was kinda before there was such a thing as online stores so it didn't really work out too well, but GW would have ended up screwing us anyway when they decreed that no one else was allowed to sell online, so at least we quit while we were kinda ahead. And I got a pretty big eldar army for 50% off in the process

The only way to stop paying 50$ a month is to sell it!?

Wow, if that is not a scam, I don't know what is.

I didn't know that you could just set up a company and work with a distributor to get products at 50% off. Well, this membership allows you to do this with less hassle and benefit from a 42% discount.

Oz, you only have to hold the membership. You can buy the original membership at $50, or buy it from somone else for less than $50. Remember, you can sell it again after you purchase whatever products you want. Yes, you do have to purchase a lot of stuff, but if you were in the market to buy $500 worth of GW stuff and you don't have a local FLGS, why wouldn't you do this?

And if the market is not liquid, you can always not pay the $50 the following month and the membership would go back to Bitkingdom.

This makes perfect sense for a gaming group. Lets say a gaming group has 10 people. Each of them wants a new army at $250 each. That's $2,500. They each pay $5 for the membership and pay $145 for the models, for a total cost of $150. That's $100 savings per person verson the $250 at a FLGS (not including tax savings and shipping costs). You can then potentially sell the membership (lets say $25) and get $2.50 back per person.

I just don't know how many large gaming groups there are that don't support a FLGS.

Hey guys it looks like Nate just sent out some more details through the email list and updated the website.

http://www.bkinnercircle.com/

Take a look it might clear up some questions. I know it did for me.

Think of it as the Sam's Club or COSTCO business model.

Upfront membership to get a larger discount when buying in bulk. Its worked very well for those companies (obviously larger market). I wonder if it will work well for GW products?

And the benefit is you can sell/trade your membership and there is no minimum membership period.

it was 50% off 15 years ago when I did it, no idea what it's like at GW now. I can't remember what the discount at Chessex was, they sold GW stuff at first but stopped soon after I think probably because GW was agressively going after stores themselves instead of letting distributors be the middle men. Cheesex came in handy though since they were within driving distance

ll I really needed at the time was a tax ID # to buy from GW US. I may have had to give them the URL to our web store too, but that was also back when they liked other mail order companies

Anyway I can see the value in this plan too, but it would really only be worthwhile for a large group or maybe someone else getting started with their own mail order service or something like that.

Definately a large group would benefit the most in this sort of membership. I'm not knocking the idea at all. For me it'd be useless given there are only about 4 other guys I can even play w/ and since our local FLGS shut down, I've only had 3 games. That's about 1 per month btw.

Also keep in mind you're paying actual shipping costs. On a big order (which is the primary purpose of this, I imagine), that could be pretty significant.

Or hire a reputable painting company that convey's their wholesale price-structure to their clients as a thank you...



I'd love to see the contract that BK has people sign that they'd have to enforce to continue charging a monthly membership.

I have a monthly membership in a wholesale club, it's called the internet.

bluedevil27 wrote:Think of it as the Sam's Club or COSTCO business model.

Upfront membership to get a larger discount when buying in bulk. Its worked very well for those companies (obviously larger market). I wonder if it will work well for GW products?

And the benefit is you can sell/trade your membership and there is no minimum membership period.

Yeah but I pay $60 per YEAR for Costco. $50 per month is pretty silly.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Yes its $50/month. But remember: If you don't want it for the second month, don't pay the $50 to renew. You are not stuck with the $50/month fee. In addition, the membership has value and there is a potential for a secondary market. You can sell/trade your membership as well. You can't sell/trade your COSTCO membership to someone else each time they shop (though you can get two names per membership).

The $50/month does seem weird. At first I thought this was going to be a limit thing kind of like the whole NY 'Taxi medallion' thing where it might increase in value as no more would be sold. However, as-is, it sounds like the way to use it would be to spend the $50 if there's a month you plan on spending a fortune then let it lapse.

I'm not following this...

OK. lets say Fred buys membership in January for $50. He then sells it to Joe for $25, as he doesn't want anymore stuff.

In February, does Fred pay another $50, or does Joe now pay it, making his investment $75 for first month?

$75 for first month

Fred would pay $50 and receive $25 from Joe. Fred's net payment for the month of January is $25. ($50-$25).

Joe pays $25 for the membership. Joe's net payment for the month of January is $25.

Now its February. Fred doesn't have the membership so he doesn't owe anything else. If Joe decides to renew the membership to allow him to purchase additional goods in the month of February he would pay $50 (with the option to sell to someone else after his purchase). If Joe does not want anything else he does not renew and does not have to pay the $50 membership fee.

Your fee per month never is higher than $50. It should be lower if you are able to trade/sell your membership.

You're absolutely right in the way to use this membership:

This is not meant to be held for a long period of time. The typical user will hold the membership for a month (or part of 1 month). Purchase the goods they want at the 42% discount and then sell/trade the membership.

Worst case scenario: You spend $50 on the membership
Standard case scenario: You spend $1-$49 on the membership as you can sell the membership to someone else.
Best Case Scenario: You spend $0 on membership because you sell the membership to someone else at $50.

There is no obligation by anyone to purchase the membership for the second month.

How in the hell is he doing this and GW not shutting his supply down faster than a crack whore jumping on a fresh rock?

grizgrin wrote:How in the hell is he doing this and GW not shutting his supply down faster than a crack whore jumping on a fresh rock?

Good question

I've had good dealings with Nate in the past, but I will be passing on this. As has been pointed out, it's great for a group making a large order, but isn't quite worth it for a solo buyer...atleast not IMHO.

It seems pretty straight forward and I'm confident a few people will find a use for the membership. Good luck to them.

Just a heads up about the membership being open at the moment for anyone who was interested.

http://www.bitkingdom.com/

I'm going to join the membership because I need a lot and many of my friends and I are going to pool our money together and buy a lot.

I'll let everyone know how it goes.

Cheers!

Why can't FLGS set up online stores to compete as well? Just order more products so you can sell both online and at the storefront?

I agree however that you should try to buy from your local store whenever possible

I think FLGS should sell online as well.

However GW has special restrictions on onilne sites (such as no shopping carts). Also some FLGS may have inventory space issues when selling online as well as in the storefront.

But I think it makes a lot of sense to expand your market versus just to local gamers.

So how did it go? Anyone sign up for the inner circle? I thought about it, but I could not see any upside for me personally. I've got a great FLGS, and understand that the best deal is not always the best deal.

I have talked with Nate x3 times on phone in last 4 days.

His inner circle deal sounds good, but some info is not known.

Here's what I know.

1. $50 per month to be member. Renewable every month with a apypal payment.

2. Last I heard $1500 monthly order limit. Subject to change.

3. 1-2 week turnaround time on order.

4. Members pay actual shipping. That is great unknown. That could be really expensive as GW packaging takes up space, alot of it.

Now I have sweet deal with my FLGS. I order on Monday and pick in person on Friday of same week. My travel distance is 20 miles North or South via 2 locations. It will extremely hard to beat the kind of deal I have and it's win/win. I support friend/FLGS and get my 40k fix.

I'd like to throw in my two pennies:

I don't think GW has a vendor tier that goes up to 50% discount anymore. A few years ago I spoke with them about setting up direct terms and the highest they quoted me was 47 or 48%, something to that effect. To get that the upfront commitment was massive. You had to buy two of every box set they produce, that being tanks, armies, etc., as well as a compliment of every blister. It came out to being thousands of dollars worth of merchandise before you even consider the minimum monthly order aspect to maintain your discount tier.

This guy at BK can afford to do what he's doing from a break even perspective. He comes out making a few dollars and is guaranteed his monthly order is met. For him it's a win/win proposition.

And before anyone gets it in their head that it's "easy" to get a tax ID number and start ordering from one of these companies, well, it's not quite as simple as all that. Like I mentioned if you go through GW there is a huge upfront cost. There are other sources, such as Alliance Games who I used for a few years. They carry practically everything, have a competitive discount structure, quick turn around, and entirely on-line ordering. However, you have to maintain a minimum monthly order to stay within a discount tier and actually possess a brick and mortar store address and phone number separate from your home address and phone number. So you couldn't realistically just put down your moms house and have your rep call there. Our sales rep got pretty cold towards me after he called a few times during "business hours" and didn't get an answer. Being that my "store" was run out of the back bedroom of my apartment I can't much blame the guy

Someone already pointed out that GWs rules on online ordering is sites can't have an electronic shopping cart, basically. So you can sell whatever you want as long as customers can't do it quick and easily on your site.

Your FLGS could be selling you all this stuff alot cheaper and just choose not to. MSRP is just a suggestion after all. And overhead and what not are considerations but if you've got someone that is going to order from the Warstore to get the 20% discount why not give them 20% off at your store? You're still making money and preserving the customer base. Sure you can't do that for every single person that walks in and out but if you do it on purchases over say $150 or so it could be just what the doctor ordered. I think that's how you put the friendly back in FLGS. Just my opinion as to why NOT to support your local store when there is money to be saved from the perspective of a guy who has never had a store locally.

Seth

Hey guys, this is Nate here. Hope I can clear up some questions you may all have. The Inner Circle is not really meant for a typical gamer wanting to place a order or people buying solo.

The reason for this people who had a lot of interest of making big purchases so a program for people who make big purchases will save them alot more and this is why I did this. We have Bitkingdom for smaller order for Joe the Gamer.

It's mostly aimed for large gaming groups, that want to get on the deal. Such as providing prizes for tournaments or campaigns. As for other people willing to work together wanting to place large bulk orders.

If you are a typical gamer, wanting a taste of the 42% there is still hope. This is how you do it. Very simple..

Talk to your gaming group leader or become the ring leader. Round up all the gamers in your group, lets say 20 for example. Think of it like some pizza party.

- You all pitch in $2.50, to pay for the membership. Then generate a list, pool all your money. I give you the invoice of who has the membership, you send payment, and I send you the bulk order.

- If you have a buddy down the street or online. Both pay the $25, and divide the cost for the membership. Combine both of your list together as one bulk order.

- You pay the membership, charge other people to use it in your group. You make profit for just being a middle man. You also can charge people interest on every other order you make. There is many ways to get your money back on return for the membership.

- This program is also a addition to promote our "Bitkingdom Franchise" so other fellow gamers can make money off selling bitz, and sprues on the market.

Since the demand for bitz is so high, there is not enough supply to go around. With this program it will make other gamers wanting to sell bitz/sprues on Ebay, Bartertown or Bitzswap.

With cutting them the slack of taking pictures, doing price adjustments etc.. going through the process of actually opening a store front to sell bitz is kinda insane.

Why do I have to pay $50/month??!?!

Remember I'm in business to serve the community, and in order to do that I need to make profit like any other business. The whole sale price is 45%, this number is slowly rising.

You can easily find out the cost of GW wholesale cost in your gaming store order catalog. It's all in black and white or even call up GW request a retail packet. I cannot simply make nickel and dimes on orders long-term.

Why 50 memberships, and limit of how much you can buy?

Like I said this not for everybody. There has to be limits regardless. If there was no control, and having endless supply of GW product then end up flooding the market.

If I was GW I wouldn't allow it. Then whats its worth? the same concept applies to currency. Just imagine every gamer had 20 Rhinos?


I hope this all answered your questions about the Inner Circle

- Nate

grim_reaper46 wrote:Also this helps FLGS stores believe it or not. By having gaming clubs getting a Inner Circle membership. This attracts new comers or other gamers in the local area. Which brings them in the store.

Since there is a limit of how you can buy, their only going to buy things they really need. Then buy other things such as paint, brush's or w/e they want to buy in the store.

You seriously believe this?
So, every time I place an order for a few models online, my FLGS breathes a sigh of relief because I might come in this week and buy another paint pot?

I can see the value of your discount deal for the player, but how can you honestly think that this will even remotely help an FLGS.
It can definitely help gaming clubs that have a non-FLGS location to play. Everyone in this situation gets a good deal and on one gets hurt.
But in general, you are encouraging gaming clubs as a whole to purchase the bulk of their merchandise from the discount program instead of through their FLGS. The increase in sales of paint pots is not going to keep the FLGS afloat if you undercut them like this.


Promote your program. Help those who need to buy in bulk do so. The program has value and definitely has its place. Good fortune to you.
But don't for a second think that you can freely insult the intelligence of the rest of us by claiming that this will help our FLGSs. How dense do you think we are?

I was just basically explaining there might be walk-in's that is all. Never meant to insult you. I might be wrong on my statement like you said. I'm just trying to help. Like Vargas stated they can do discounts as well, they choose not to. Your FLGS has the same opportunity, and right as I do to start selling Online like any other gaming store. Maybe this is the new trend for all gaming stores selling online.

Nate explain the shipping costs involved here. Give an example.

As for shipping, it will be usually shipped by UPS. As for the US average packages will range from $8-15 or at the most $20. With UPS will cut the cost of shipping alot when shipping bulk. As for International overseas, usually $40-60 depending on the weight, and size. I'll give you the price quote of shipping over the phone or in the invoice.

About helping FLGS, I admit I was wrong on this topic. So I edited, and deleted. All I was trying state it might them help, but I was wrong. But I want to help gaming clubs that don't have a gaming store. So this can help them out.

grim_reaper46 wrote:

Also this helps FLGS stores believe it or not. By having gaming clubs getting a Inner Circle membership. This attracts new comers or other gamers in the local area. Which brings them in the store.

- Nate

Please, try to be honest about it at least?

That doesn't help a store stay in business. Stores stay in business by paying the rent. Players buying merchandise gives the store the profit to pay the rent. A club that is buying at 42% off won't be sending business to the local store. When they reach their limit, they'll buy another membership, so more club members can get stuff cheap. If you sell your 50, and there is demand, either you'll offer more, or someone else will.
A store needs new gamers that will support it, not buy elsewhere, and come in to take up space and use the tables. The tables, scenery, and events, are there at the store because of the gamers that support it. Take away the support, and those tables will go away. Maybe the store as well.

The more players buying at discount, the less local stores your going to see. Especially local stores with gaming tables, scenery, and putting in the effort to run leagues and events. Those things happen when customers are supporting a store.

With the hit most stores are taking from the crappy economy, expect to see less of them come spring. If you start buying all your stuff online, expect to be playing in your basement, not at your local store.

And yes, I'm a bit open bias about this topic. If a club came in to my store to play, and explained how they were doing me a favor by buying their stuff elsewhere, I'd beat them to death with a gaming table just for being stupid.

People should feel free to buy their games wherever they want, and get a discount if they want one. But don't kid yourself that your helping your local store.

This is only really good for larger clubs who game out of their garages / basements and don't have a FLGS.

It's also good for Canadians with a good friend who lives on the border.

Question for Nate:

Does this extend to Forge World? If so, I'll sign on in a heartbeat.

I like Bitkingdom and I've done well by them.

That said, this move seem desperate and short-sighted. Why offer a discount on what are already excellent prices unless it is to increase flagging sales? In the long run, why offer such a steep discount? At the end of the day people will buy this stuff anyways. Might as well keep the profit margin thin but primed rather than sating demand all in one go.

grizgrin wrote:Question for Nate:

Does this extend to Forge World? If so, I'll sign on in a heartbeat.

It can't. Forgeworld does not offer a discount to any independent store. The 42% can't apply to bitz, special items like the backpacks or ammo case, or figures cases, all of which have a 35% discount or less to an independent store.

If Forgeworld offered a 40% discount to independent stores, I'd be placing a 20k order the next day.

Pay.
Where.
You.
Play.

It is and always has been the future of the hobby, regardless of the manufacturer.

If you don't have an FLGS near you, consider how your purchases can impact the larger community. Does everybody win? Then go for it. Please try to keep your FLGS in business.

If someone (an FLGS, GW, or gamers) is going to be screwed over, then please reconsider.

Cheers
Dave

davetaylor wrote:Pay.
Where.
You.
Play.

It is and always has been the future of the hobby, regardless of the manufacturer.

If you don't have an FLGS near you, consider how your purchases can impact the larger community. Does everybody win? Then go for it. Please try to keep your FLGS in business.

If someone (an FLGS, GW, or gamers) is going to be screwed over, then please reconsider.

Cheers
Dave

QFT

I was interested in this venture, but that is no longer case after doing math and considering turn around time of shipping. I almost let the 42% cloud my thinking, . I get a great deal from my FLGS, who is my friend. I pick up orders on Friday, game on Sat in one location, game or theory hammer on Sunday at other location.

Support your local game shops or soon you'll be playing in streets and ally.

OTOH, if you're a garage gamer, then go for it.

mikhaila: I understand what you are saying, but I didn't think it was "legal" for anyone to offer this kind of discount (42%) in the first place. If he is throwing GW's "recommendations" for retail product out the window, then who knows, he might have applied it to FW as well.
I understand that he would be paying us to let him ship it to us at 42%, but if this guy has gone off the deep end then all bets are off.
I seriously don't think he'd do it, mikhaila, but a guy can dream. I'd have a 5,000.00 USD order in a matter of hours.

I had this idea before I read all the thread, so burn me gently and with good humour:

What if Dakka Dakka itself bought a membership and anyone who wanted to make an order on that membership paid Dakka Dakka 5 or 10 dollars to access that membership (Dakka passes on the IP address to protect some of its investment). After 5 or 10 sales Dakka Dakka starts to make a profit per month.

It doesn't work, it folds and nobody loses (except FLGS), it works we have access to cheap models and Dakka gets a way to save for server updates and what have you.

Ok, I'll now take my blindfold and cigarettes please.

You mean anyone who is a DCM.

And no it wouldn't work because after getting the order shipped to Yak or whoever's place you'd have to get it shipped to yours, so it's the same as 30 or 35% off or whatever he regularly offers.

Amen Brick:
Since Dakkadakka is paying for shipping, I am sure Nate woud be willing to ship a DakkaDakka order to whatever address Dakkadakka tells him to. So, if the individual waits until they have 100 bones put together to make minimum order, then they could send that money to Dakkadakka, and have the product shipped to their home. Doesn't have to ship through yak or whomever.

So, a dakkadakka member would just have to have a minimum order for Nate, and a valid shipping address.

With a max order/month of 1500, you might actually run into a flow limit issue. Dakkadakka may want to do a first come first serve, and set a ceiling.

This discount only applied to GW, not forgeworld. Also, it only applied to stock items - so it doesn't include Direct Only items (though its hard to figure out what is direct only - I wish GW had it on its website) nor does it include a 42% on bitz that bit kingdom sells.

I am not sure if GW has a specific allowance on the maximum discount that vendors are allowed to have. Though either way, GW makes money as long as people buy GW products. It shouldn't effect GW if someone buys at a 42% discount online or at a 10% discount at a FLGS. GW still makes money. Obviously GW would make more money if people bought at a GW shop at ful retail.

Assuming all retailers get a 45% discount from MSRP, it should be up to the retail store to figure out how much of a discount they are willing to offer customers and still be able to make a profit. Some may offer rewards programs for loyal customer or discounts at bulk. If Bit Kingdom has found a way to make money and offer a 42% discount for customers its a win/win for Bitkingdom and customers.

Yes, its a loss for FLGS if people are buying from online sites vs. FLGS. However, most people (not everyone) who plays at a FLGS will buy products at their FLGS to support them. I think most people understand that if you are not supporting them, they may not be in existence in the future so less gaming opportunities.

There are a lot of different types of gamers out there. This 42% discount is marketed only for a select few. As JohnHwang as said -its specifically for Garage Gamers who buy in bulk.

I also thought Amen Brick's idea was good too. I don't know if its possible, but maybe talk to Nate about getting a membership for Dakka. And to save on the shipping costs, be able to ship it to the buyers individually, instead of shipping it twice. Maybe Dakka could offer a 40% or 35% discount and use the profits for running this site. It could work (though there is a maximum amount you can purchase per month with the membership). But there are a lot of FLGS owners here who might not like that. A new FLGS just opened in Chicago, so I understand their plight as well.

People can spend their money how they wish. Everyone works very hard for their money. But you can't blame anyone buy yourself if your FLGS goes out of business and you haven't bought your merchandise from them.

grizgrin wrote:mikhaila: I understand what you are saying, but I didn't think it was "legal" for anyone to offer this kind of discount (42%) in the first place. If he is throwing GW's "recommendations" for retail product out the window, then who knows, he might have applied it to FW as well.
I understand that he would be paying us to let him ship it to us at 42%, but if this guy has gone off the deep end then all bets are off.
I seriously don't think he'd do it, mikhaila, but a guy can dream. I'd have a 5,000.00 USD order in a matter of hours.

The big difference between FW and regular GW product, is that stores with an account can order GW at a 45% discount. So it's possible under this scheme to make money. The 3% profit covers the credit card fees, buyer pays shipping, supplier gets 50 bucks a month. Whether or not it violates GW retail policies is between him and GW.

With FW, there is no discount. Period. Sure, he could order 1000.00 in FW, and sell it to you for 580.00, but it's going to cost him 1000.00, no discount. No chance to make money selling FW unless you mark it up above the cost FW sells the item for.

The GW trade sales stance on this is that no supplier should be selling it under MSRP. That is how it has been since they shut down all online retailers. Neal has had his account for so long and orders enough that they turn their cheek to his "prices."

Standard retailer cost is 55% of retail. Sure he only gets 3% from these "insiders," but this simple action will increase his sales about 13% in general from people wanting this discount, or just ordering as a group with it.

GW could cancel his account if they wish, but I believe that Alliance is still a distributor of GW products so you don't even need a Trade account to get GW product if you have an Alliance account. I am not sure what Alliance's mark up is for them to supply the GW products, but its prob at least 5 to 10%.

GW should let him take few tens of thousands of dollars worth of orders, and *then* fudge-up the shipping and delivery over the next couple months. A few "lost" boxes here, and few mispacks there, and it's like Battleline Hobbies all over again...

Mikhaila:

Let me restate to clarify my original concept: I understand about the discounts, have for a very long time. The guy appears to be doing things GW would not want him to do (ie, far too deep a discount for a retailer to be providing to a customer). The premise of my FW inquiry was half-sarcstic, half-wishful thinking. I did not seriously think for a second that it included FW. However, on the off chance that he's gone bat gak stupid, I would like to place an order. Beasue that's what he would have to be if he tried to provide a discount on FW; bat gak stupid.

One thing, however. I know you did, or do, or something; run a FLGS. Question for you. I have 2 FLGS in my immediate area (praise be!), and am friends with both the owners. One of them claims FW is a 15% markup, and the other one claims similar. This is different, albeit not very much in terms of percentages, from what I understand your claim of 0% above to be. Did I miss something? Am I misunderstanding you?

"However GW has special restrictions on onilne sites (such as no shopping carts). Also some FLGS may have inventory space issues when selling online as well as in the storefront."

....GW also stops people having trade accounts if they sell bits in any way , however they dont enforce it for anyone in america.Also they only seem to enforce the no shopping cart rules to americans.I used to deal warhammer and my website had a cart and passed their scrutiny, however they wouldnt allow me to make profit which at the end of the day was the point.

However i do think the above idea is fairly silly, would have little appeal and would be unworkable due to complexity and the fact that the gw rrp is fairly meaningless nowadays because 60% of games workshops sales are to independant stockists (meaning that the vast majority of sales made by gw are not at or near the rrp)

The cheapest place to buy GW items right now is ebay, as the new search engine and the credit crunch has driven away buyers and driven prices down.

Also in my opinion bitkingdom should focus on the core idea of selling bits, right now the website barely has anything on it but now wants to sell boxed sets and i saw an ad for a trading website too.

It's better to do one thing and do it well than attempt 3 half heartedly.

konversionz: we truly are 2 peoples seperated by a common language. What does "rrp" mean in real money?

One of them claims FW is a 15% markup, and the other one claims similar. This is different, albeit not very much in terms of percentages, from what I understand your claim of 0% above to be. Did I miss something? Am I misunderstanding you?

I talk to head of GW US every year, and always beg to be allowed to carry forgeworld. Even just the books. The deal has always been the same. FW is part of GW, but separate from all other GW operations. They do not discount to stores.

Some stores will order FW at full price in a large enough volume to get free shipping, then mark the items up 15 to 20%, and sell them. So instead of buying a 20.00 set of Landraider doors for 20.00 plus shipping from England, you can buy it for 24.00 from your local store, and get it immediately. Just for the hell of it, I'll check again tomorrow though, and see if anything has changed. Hope springs eternal.

If something has changed, and I didn't get a call, headkrumpin' down in Baltimore will start immediately.

Dude, you may want to check that out, but at least one of these guys has been singing roughly the same tune for a few years. I'm vague with the details on the older contact really b/c there was no angle for me (self centered like that). And the other dude quoted me 15% markup to retail just a few days ago, but he has been singing that tune as well for a couple years.

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree tat it's a pity their stuff looks so good in th pctures, but costs you a small third world family to obtain.

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree tat it's a pity their stuff looks so good in th pctures, but costs you a small third world family to obtain.

Hmm, could I trade some of my forgeworld pieces for a small, third world family?
It would really help with getting the 10 or so armies I have sitting around finished off.

bluedevil27 wrote:I've ordered two shipments from Bitkingdom. I think they were relatively early on when it was first starting and I got everything within a week with no problems. However, I have heard of a couple of people having delays in their shipments.

Is anyone going to participate in this Inner circle? Fortunately for me, a FLGS just opened up in Chicago (finally) and although it would be a lot of savings, I would like to support the FLGS as much as possible. Plus $400 of GW stuff is a lot of stuff! This really is targeted for gaming groups.

it did? In the city proper?

Where at?

Attack Squig - PM'd you. I also started a thread in the "Looking for a Game" forum if anyone wants more details about the new Chicago gamestore. Anyone else who is reading this in the Chicago area, please feel free to pm me if you need any details.

grizgrin wrote:konversionz: we truly are 2 peoples seperated by a common language. What does "rrp" mean in real money?

Recommended Retail Price.

I know what rrp is an abbreviation of, what i am saying is that 60% of games workshops sales are made to independant stockists who then sell it on themselves...that means that most of the stock that GW sell is sold at nowhere near the rrp.

If more than half of a companies sales are not at the rrp then the rrp is far too high and virtually meaningless.

Rather than tell you all over again I'll just post this:

http://www.bartertown.com/trading/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=76003&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Hope that helps (if only a little)
-Zack (AKA bluegreenhello @ bartertown)

Ozymandias wrote:So let me understand. I pay $50 a month so I can get a discount on other things I buy that month? I have to spend over $400 a month to break even?

No thanks.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

How did you calculate that?

Let's use the magic # of $150.
Let's assume I will order $150 retail per month.

$150 *.58 (we're only paying 58% of retail) = $87
So, I'm paying $87 + $6 shipping for the $150 retail. That's $93. Add in my $50 fee and I'm at $143.

Now, I know that's no HUGE savings, but it's BETTER than breaking even and it's less than half of the amount you claimed was needed to "break even."

Keep in mind, though, that this isn't designed for the average gamer. It's intended for individuals and groups who will be ordering well in excess of $300 per month in product.

Eric

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:
4. Members pay actual shipping. That is great unknown. That could be really expensive as GW packaging takes up space, alot of it.

I don't see why this should be too expensive.

I just ordered something online through a retailer I know who can get me 30% off (Sorry, folks. I won't divulge who). I had to pay his shipping charge, which was... $5.95. I ordered about $500 retail, and it filled a LARGE box... which was drop shipped to me.

Hrmm... Unless that's the problem. If he's having them ship the items to him, reboxing & resending them out to others... yeah. That'll add price AND problems onto his business model.


Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:I have to spend over $400 a month to break even?

$150 *.58 (we're only paying 58% of retail) = $87
So, I'm paying $87 + $6 shipping for the $150 retail. That's $93. Add in my $50 fee and I'm at $143.

If you're an Internet shopper, why would you ever pay $150 retail?

At a start, you can call Neal of the War Store, and get 20% off with $5 shipping. That's $125, or $18 less than the $143 you're willing to pay.

And if you hunt, you can get 25% or even 30% off with maybe $10 shipping. So you can probably get the lot for less than $120.

So to get that order to where you compete with other Internet retailers that don't require an upfront fee, you need to order $400 per month, minimum. Probably $500 or more.

I don't spend that much in a year (anymore), and my gaming group is similar, so this is a non-starter for me.

bluedevil27 wrote:Think of it as the Sam's Club or COSTCO business model.

Upfront membership to get a larger discount when buying in bulk. Its worked very well for those companies (obviously larger market). I wonder if it will work well for GW products?

And the benefit is you can sell/trade your membership and there is no minimum membership period.

You can go to COSTCO for your regular bulk shopping, not just a specialist purchase. None of us claim they eat, drink and sleep miniatures, do they?

M_Stress wrote:The only way to stop paying 50$ a month is to sell it!?

Wow, if that is not a scam, I don't know what is.

100% agree here. However, if reported accurately, it might be just an hairbrained offer rather than malicious con. Three things jump out at me for this 'deal'.

First the hefty monthly fee, far in excess of most commercial memberships.

Secondly, the maximum annual discounted sale. First the figure is not given up front second it might be as low as $2000 per annum. If you do need to buy $416.67 per month for break even (against 30% discount) you need a minimum cap of $5000 per annum, plus four cents. That is for break even, and you have to use it all. Someone else can provide comparison figures vs 20% and 25% discount, many of which also come with free shipping.

Thirdly, there appears to be no regular exit clause, though we have not seen the actual contract. You have to buy your way out, which will prove difficult once it is understood that you bought a financial ball and chain. Of course this could mean that they way to terminate with the provider is to sell the contract back as opposed to have it expire naturally after a set timespan. This leaves you at the mercy of Bit Kingdom.

Now I have not seen the contract and it may well have been misread by bluedevil27, or merely incomplete, or even just a brainstorm idea from BitKingdom that will not get past a second look. If so fair enough, we all get bad business ideas, and so long as we discard them before implementing them the ideas can be as bad as they get.
However if BitKingdom actually is setting up a scheme like this I would take it as firm evidence that the company doesn't know what it is doing and would stay away from them; they are likely not to be competent/honest (you decide) in other areas too. There is also the possibility that a 'scheme' actually breaks one or more consumer regulations somewhere, likely around implementation of the exit policies.

the "contract" is just a 12 month paypal agreement to pay 50 dollars. and there is a 1500 dollar cap per month on discounted items, not anywhere near 5k.

Yes, but is there an annual limit to purchases? Does it state there is no limit expressively?


I am sorry but 600 a year for 42% off of what I MIGHT want to order over that year just isn't that much of a draw. Even with a gaming group splitting the cost of it, how long will those interested want to continue this binding agreement and what if you choose to just stop the payments over pay pal, what is the termination clause?

Orlanth wrote:

bluedevil27 wrote:Think of it as the Sam's Club or COSTCO business model.

Upfront membership to get a larger discount when buying in bulk.

You can go to COSTCO for your regular bulk shopping, not just a specialist purchase. None of us claim they eat, drink and sleep miniatures, do they?

Costco membership is, at most, $100 per year. If you pay $100, you receive rebates that generally cover the cost of your membership fee. Therefore, Costco is effectively FREE.

Contrast with the Bitkingdom scheme. Bitkingdom charges $600 per year, payable in $50 monthly installments. This is far in excess of what Costco charges.

I can't see why anybody would sign up for this. If you're spending $500+ per month, you might as well get a business license and open an account with a distributor. Then you can write off a ton of other stuff as business expenses.

Orlanth wrote:However if BitKingdom actually is setting up a scheme like this I would take it as firm evidence that the company doesn't know what it is doing and would stay away from them; they are likely not to be competent/honest (you decide) in other areas too. There is also the possibility that a 'scheme' actually breaks one or more consumer regulations somewhere, likely around implementation of the exit policies.

QFT.

Pretty much everything about the scheme rubs me the wrong way. It seems extremely shady, and is likely illegal and/or in violation of their reseller agreement.

At a minimum, I'd like to know who these people are, from a Brick&Mortar / tracable RL perspective. You know, in case I would ever need to send law enforcement / legal / legbreakers after them...

And the fact that they use PayPal (the scammer's choice) rather than a reputable (and consumer-friendly) method like a credit card company only makes it worse.

I'd like to see the model contract for this posted for review. I suspect there would be other "poison pills" in the contract.

In a standard business agreement for this scale, for the dollar volumes we're talking about, I'd expect Bitkingdom to remove the upfront fee and give me Net 30 payment terms (i.e. they ship, and I have 30 days to pay upon receipt).

In any case, based on the scheme, I don't trust the business ethics of Bit Kingdom, so I wouldn't want to do business with them.

Yes, but is there an annual limit to purchases? Does it state there is no limit expressively?

from what i see, yes there is an annual limit to purchases. it would be 1,500/month x 12 months = 18,000 dollars.

here is the site I was sent to: http://www.bkinnercircle.com/

here is what our group is doing. we have about 10 in our group that are interested thus far. so we split the cost. that makes it 60 bucks per person, per year. we then put in 2 or more orders a month, mostly on the 1st and 15th of the month. everyone that wants to try it out has to poney up their 60 bucks for the year. if this ends up being a scam then we can file a greivance with paypal, but since there are people that have dealt with this person/business in the past, I dont think it will be an issue.

LordClammy wrote:here is the site I was sent to: http://www.bkinnercircle.com/

if this ends up being a scam then we can file a greivance with paypal,

since there are people that have dealt with this person/business in the past, I dont think it will be an issue.

First off, a web page on a miscellaenous website isn't a contract. It isn't even his standard website. For all you know, it's a temporary page that will auto-expire and never be seen again.

If you dump $1000+ into Paypal, and he scams you after emptying his PayPal account, you're out the money. PayPal won't make good on it unless he has money in the account. They won't lift a finger.

You know, most scammers start small to build up a few good refs. Then they go big. Then they grab the cash and run.


Personally, this whole thing has all the markings of a massive scam. I wish you a lot of luck.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

LordClammy wrote:here is the site I was sent to: http://www.bkinnercircle.com/

if this ends up being a scam then we can file a greivance with paypal,

since there are people that have dealt with this person/business in the past, I dont think it will be an issue.

You know, most scammers start small to build up a few good refs. Then they go big. Then they grab the cash and run.

Or his guy has GW employees buying merchandise at some of their more shady locations.

I won't disagree however with the notion that many "scammers" build up references and then go big. I've seen it, and I've seen them get away with it. And some of them? Still being protected by the communities they're members of because the people there are idiots, or scammers themselves.

It's a vicious circle.

At least this guy hasn't asked for bank account information like the one from Mexico who said "[it would be better if they could pay me directly that way.]"

If you are a scammer, and you have PayPal to protect you, why would you need to interact directly with a bank and risk a Federal wire fraud felony?

All this talk of bitkingdom being a scam is confusing to me.

First and foremost: Bitkingdom IS NOT A SCAM. They've been in business for almost a year selling bitz and discounted GW products. They even have a brick and mortar store in Nebraska. I have purchased items from them three times with no problems whatsoever. There have been tons of other people who have bought from bitkingdom as well. In fact, looking at a lot of the bitz stores, Bit Kingdom is able to provide most bits cheaper than other online stores. They are providing a SERVICE for us gamers by providing us cheaper bitz! If they are able to make money - good for them. They are able to do things more efficiently or are willing to make less money than others. Either way, that is the basis of what this country is founded on - capitalism.

If people don't understand something - people think its a scam. I think that's a natural tendency. First off, this inner circle is based on the COSTCO business model. It is not COSTCO. There is a difference. $50/month may seem a lot, but that is because there is no comparison. Everything you compare it to will be apples to oranges. Costco is $50 to $100/year. A gym member ship is $50/month. A county club membership may be $10,000/year. It seems expensive because we have nothing to compare it to and we are not used to a monthly membership to purchase GW products.. but you can't think that its automatically a scam just because there is a monthly membership.

Bit Kingdom has found a new way to provide gamers with cheap products for a certain type of gamer. Lets do the simple math:
Joe buys $1,000 worth of GW products at one time.

Choice A) Go to a FLGS/GW shop and pay full retail and spend $1,000 + tax (assuming 10.25% tax.. yes that is what tax is in Chicago - that's a total of $1125.
Choice B) Go to Neal at the Warstore: Pay $800 (20% discount) + $5 shipping. Total of $805.
Choice C) Buy from another online source at 30% discount: Pay $700 + $10 shipping (assumed). Total of $710
Choice D) Buy from Bitkingdom (regular) assume a 25% discount (usually discount is between 25% and 30%, depending on what you purchase). Pay $750 (free shipping). Total of $750.
Choice E) Join Bitkingdom Inner Circle: 42% discount. Pay $580. Plus $50 monthly membership. Plus $20 shipping (assumed). Total $650

So here are our choices:
A) $1,125
B) $805
C) $710
D) $750
E) $650

Which would you choose? Now there is no right answer. Some may choose A to support a local game store. Good for you. Some may choose B since they are loyal to Neal. Some have access to C and will choose C. Some may use D and support Bit Kingdom. Others will see the benefit in E and choose to join the Inner Circle.

See how easy that was? We all have these same choices. If you don't buy products in bulk.. choice E will not be the cheapest option. But there are some people who do. Just because you don't, don't think that there are others who don't as well. Nate is still providing Choice D to everyone. In addition, he has offered another option to everyone. Just like his bit services. You can buy the whole box new, or if you're just looking for a specific bit, buy the bit separately. People don't think bit selling is a scam because its cheaper do they?

As for the contract, to be honest, i have never seen the contract. It is my understanding that there is no obligation to keep paying after the first month if you do not wish to purchase products at a 42% discount in the future. There is no guarantee that there is a secondary market too. You may try to get people to buy the membership off of you, but you have to find a buyer. But again, if you don't want to pay for the second month.. don't pay. Just remember that you can't buy products at a 42% discount. But of you course you can purchase at Bit Kingdom's normal discount.

Does that make sense to everyone? I think its a great idea because it gives gamers options. We all like more options. Am I a bit kingdom inner circle member. No. Mostly, because it doesn't fit my buying pattern. But I can see how it would fit other people's buying patterns.

People who have joined the Inner Circle should reply and express their feelings on bitkingdom's inner circle. Talk about customer service which is important to everyone. But if you are only buying $100 of products and are complaining that the Inner circle is a rip-off, that isn't Nate's fault, its your own for not understanding who the Inner Circle is geared for.

bluedevil27 wrote:Bitkingdom IS NOT A SCAM.

First off, this inner circle is based on the COSTCO business model. $50/month may seem a lot, but that is because there is no comparison. Costco is $50 to $100/year. A gym member ship is $50/month. A county club membership may be $10,000/year.

Choice A) Go to a FLGS/GW shop and pay full retail and spend $1,000 + tax (assuming 10.25% tax.. yes that is what tax is in Chicago - that's a total of $1125.
Choice B) Go to Neal at the Warstore: Pay $800 (20% discount) + $5 shipping. Total of $805.
Choice C) Buy from another online source at 30% discount: Pay $700 + $10 shipping (assumed). Total of $710
Choice D) Buy from Bitkingdom (regular) assume a 25% discount (usually discount is between 25% and 30%, depending on what you purchase). Pay $750 (free shipping). Total of $750.
Choice E) Join Bitkingdom Inner Circle: 42% discount. Pay $580. Plus $50 monthly membership. Plus $20 shipping (assumed). Total $650

As for the contract, to be honest, i have never seen the contract.

It's not a scam, yet. It only becomes a scam when the scammer sees he's got $100k in cash and walks away with it.

The comparison is with Costco, which is $50 to $100 annually, not monthly. Costco is a similar buying club. Gym and country club memberships aren't buying clubs, so don't use them for comparision.

For Choice E you need to add another $550 for the remaining annual dues. Therefore, the Inner Circle is the most expensive option of all at $1200 per year.

Without seeing the contract, how can anyone decide to join?

There are a lot of foolish people in the world.

It is my understanding that the Inner Circle is a monthly membership. Thus the membership fee is quoted as $50/month. Not $600/year. If its only a month. Just pay for the month. Just like Costco, you get a bigger discount, so if you do the math right, you will make up the membership fee just like you would in COSTCO.

Gorilla Tactics just did a 40% off black friday. Again, there was apprehension because people had never seen a 40% discount and wanted to make sure it wasn't a scam. I think its important to make sure things are legit. I believe everyone who ordered from there is very happy and will purchase from them again.

I think that this inner circle will be the exact same thing. Those that are happy with it will continue to be members (as long as it makes sense for them). If they don't want to be members but are satisfied with the service. I'm sure those same people will buy bitz/GW products from Nate at his normal discount.

Should be people be apprehensive, sure.. $50 + max order of 1,500 is a lot of money. If you're apprehensive, call and talk to Nate. If you get a bad vibe, don't order. If you get a good vibe.. go ahead. If you got screwed, let everyone know. If you got great service, let people know as well. Could this be a potential scam. Well Nate as like 20 members. 20 x $50 = $1,000. Assuming everyone ordered the max amount of $1,500 this month. That's a total of $30,000 of goods. So $31,000 total. That's a good chuck of money so he could run off with it. But he's also been in business for a good amount of time and has talked to many people. I doubt he could pull this scam again. If not, $31,000 isn't that much money. Are there bad people out there? Sure. On places like Bartertown, there are people that get ripped off for a $500 army. It sucks and everyone should be careful.

Should you believe me on this. No. But if you are interested, call Nate and talk to him. If you still don't feel right, don't do it. If Nate is as good at selling on the phone as he is at creating innovative ideas, you may join. Assuming the 20 people who bought memberships this month use them, we should be getting some sort of feedback on the service.

Just a disclaimer. I have talked to Nate a couple of times on the phone. I have never met him nor have I ever been to Nebraska. Would I trust him with an order.. yes... i've done it 3 times so far (albeit approximately $100 orders each time). But I would still feel confident giving him a larger order. Your instincts/thoughts may be different.

Right.

All I know is that, if it seems too good to be true, it usually is. Look at the recent Madoff situation - $50 Billion defrauded!

I also know that people will pull scams for much less than $1000, so $10k or $30k is a good haul for a scammer.

As always, buyer beware.

That is true. Did you see Madoff's client list? Head people in GMAC and some other prominent wealthy people.

It does seem like its too good to be true, but if you are Nate, here are the benefits:

1) Potentially get new clients through this process in addition to existing clients.
2) Although margins are lower initially, Nate probably doesn't expect too many people to have this membership over a long period of time. Thus at some point they will just be regular customers with his higher margins.
3) He is also encouraging people to try to make money off of this by reselling bitz. He will let people use the bit pictures that he has already taken the time to put together and label and set prices for all the bitz. Thus there is more supply for everyone in the gaming world which is good for everyone! Nate can only supply so many bitz. If there are two other people willing to put the work in having bitz available for people, I would think that is a good thing.
4) Having reliable people do the bitz services also helps spread the word about bitkingdom. Nate still makes the 3% on these clients, and they in turn can make profits selling bitz.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:I have to spend over $400 a month to break even?

$150 *.58 (we're only paying 58% of retail) = $87
So, I'm paying $87 + $6 shipping for the $150 retail. That's $93. Add in my $50 fee and I'm at $143.

If you're an Internet shopper, why would you ever pay $150 retail?

At a start, you can call Neal of the War Store, and get 20% off with $5 shipping. That's $125, or $18 less than the $143 you're willing to pay.

And if you hunt, you can get 25% or even 30% off with maybe $10 shipping. So you can probably get the lot for less than $120.

So to get that order to where you compete with other Internet retailers that don't require an upfront fee, you need to order $400 per month, minimum. Probably $500 or more.

I don't spend that much in a year (anymore), and my gaming group is similar, so this is a non-starter for me.

Well, i definitely won't argue that point, John... but you're bringing a third figure into a two figure equation.

If we're going to talk about "breaking even," we have to look at $ amount paid vs. retail value, as that is the bases of any discount. To "Break even" with Bit Kingdom you have to order $150 retail a month. Adding in a third factor changes the dynamic of the issue completely... and I agree, it increases the amount you'd need to buy dramatically. For whit is is intended, however, it's still a better deal than Neal's.

Remember, Neal's 20% discount is intended for you and me. Bit Kingdom's membership service is meant for game groups, people who will resell on the internet, people who will sell the product as bits, and those with more money than time. For what it is, it's something that neal can't (or, at least, WON'T) match... and understandably so.


Eric

JohnHwangDD wrote:

bluedevil27 wrote:Bitkingdom IS NOT A SCAM.

First off, this inner circle is based on the COSTCO business model. $50/month may seem a lot, but that is because there is no comparison. Costco is $50 to $100/year. A gym member ship is $50/month. A county club membership may be $10,000/year.

Choice A) Go to a FLGS/GW shop and pay full retail and spend $1,000 + tax (assuming 10.25% tax.. yes that is what tax is in Chicago - that's a total of $1125.
Choice B) Go to Neal at the Warstore: Pay $800 (20% discount) + $5 shipping. Total of $805.
Choice C) Buy from another online source at 30% discount: Pay $700 + $10 shipping (assumed). Total of $710
Choice D) Buy from Bitkingdom (regular) assume a 25% discount (usually discount is between 25% and 30%, depending on what you purchase). Pay $750 (free shipping). Total of $750.
Choice E) Join Bitkingdom Inner Circle: 42% discount. Pay $580. Plus $50 monthly membership. Plus $20 shipping (assumed). Total $650

As for the contract, to be honest, i have never seen the contract.

It's not a scam, yet. It only becomes a scam when the scammer sees he's got $100k in cash and walks away with it.

The comparison is with Costco, which is $50 to $100 annually, not monthly. Costco is a similar buying club. Gym and country club memberships aren't buying clubs, so don't use them for comparision.

For Choice E you need to add another $550 for the remaining annual dues. Therefore, the Inner Circle is the most expensive option of all at $1200 per year.

Without seeing the contract, how can anyone decide to join?

There are a lot of foolish people in the world.

Yeah, but John... You're adding in extraneous facts again. The site owner has said that you can walk away from it at any time... but, if you do, you can never rejoin.
that's not a big deal, in my opinion.

So, by adding in the $550 for no apparent reason, you're skewing the comparison. As I've said before... you have to look at it from the perspective of his TARGET audience.

If I'm going to resell online, I probably WILL order $1000 a month in product. Especially since I can sell for 25% to 30% off online and make a profit from it. So, with that in mind, multiply all of the options by 12 (not just the fees for one option) and compare:

A) $13,500
B) $9660
C) $8520 (and WHERE can you get someone to sell to you at a 30% discount?)
D) $9000
E) $7800

The difference just compounds over the year.

Also... You shouldn't just assume he's going to scam.
Otherwise, you have to also apply that possibility to options A-D above, as well.


Eric

Eric:

I'm not assuming that he's going to scam, but the way this is set up, it would be *very* easy to do so. That is, if I were going to run a scam for *serious* gamer money, this is pretty much how I'd do it:
- short but sweet initial track record
- "personal touch" to get the word out
- "exclusive" club advertised globally, with limited "memberships" remaining
- holiday timeline for massive X-mas buys
- full GW range of product to "offer"
- up-front fee to encourage high purchase levels
- PayPal payment
- PayPal scammer protection
If you compare with the_trader, the scammable dollar volumes are potentially incalculably higher. Potentially, he could be sitting on 125+ actual memberships, each putting in close to the monthly maximum $1500 to maximize the group buy with their holiday money. That's roughly $200k in *cash*, probably a couple orders of magnitude higher than what the_trader probably managed to get away with. That's plenty enough temptation to walk away from any hobby store.

Where does it say that I can walk away in the contract? Oh, wait... I read above $600 per year, in monthly installments of $50. I can walk away from the contract, but without a contract, who knows...

If I'm going to resell online, I'll get a business license and open a distribution account with Net 30 payment terms. If I have payment terms, it's a lot harder for me to be scammed, given that I don't pay until after the merchandise arrives at my door.

But hey, "buying isn't the same as trading", so you should always pay first...

Hello Everyone.

This is Nate Slater again.

Bit Kingdom is here to stay. It's my life and my pride. I've spent the great deal of the past year and a half building it up.

Over that year and a half we've had hundreds and hundreds of happy gamers who frequent our hobby store and online store regularly and only a few orders have been messed up but we have made it up to those gamers.

We are in the process of putting new systems in place to better manage both our online and hobby shop to serve you better.

There are several people who would like to see Bit Kingdom fail but for those few who try and sabotage us there are hundreds more who are on our side and they support us and we can only say thanks.

Where some of the numbers and accusations came from on this thread I don't know -- Honestly.

It could be with the current tough economy and the recent $50 billion scam. As a consumer you should always be safe with your money weary of people even with a company that has a proven track record like Bit Kingdom.

I realize that words are just that words --- We thought that our actions over the past year to year and a half have been been clear but only more time will tell and prove that Bit Kingdom always has been a reliable and trustworthy hobby shop and we still will be a reliable hobby shop for years to come.

If our current Inner Circle program is not for you then it's no problem. The offer is there for you to pass.

We have great prices on all of our products on Bit Kingdom. Many of our biggest customers requested a program from us to buy in bulk and we delivered and they're more than pleased.

We also realize that this current program is something new that the community hasn't seen before and that might of scared some of you. You just don't know to you try something and we did with this program because this is what many of our customers wanted.

I apologize if I can't stop by and post on the forum frequently but I do try to from time to time. It's just that I'm extremely busy with working on Bit Kingdom day and night.

All The Best,
Nate Slater

Nate has his physical address, his phone number and his paypal addy on his site.

http://216.243.198.18:2282/How_To_Order/

Granted these could all be fake. He could be the next Jason Ticknor. But why would you assume that? Thats very presumtive, its a long shot, and you should give him the benefit of the doubt.

1. I could be a terrorist. Heck, I could be Osama Bin Laden. You have no proof that I'm not, but its safe to assume that I'm not.
2. I could go hijack a plane and blow it up. I'm not gonna. There's too much at stake for ME and the people I know and love to make it worth it. That means I won't.

Moral of the story- Just because I have the power to take some money doesn't mean I will. Nate has a well established business that he has worked his typing fingers to the bone on, and has a steady flow of cash coming in, and he intends to expand further. Why would he blow it all up on $10k? Like I said, he put work into this one. Another trait of scammers that are you missing is that they tend to be looking to get rich quick. Why else would you risk going to prison if you didn't get the money substantially easier then working for it? He has been in business for 2 years, thats more work than any scam is worth (at least on the scale of sellling Games workshop toy soldiers- so no Enron remarks! ). He frequently complains when I make orders of how much time Bit Kingdom occupies in his life (almost all of it). But he is proud of where he is, how far hes come, and is happy with his current standing.

Just my two cents. Excuse the almost not relevant example.

First off, I estimated the potential take at $200k, not $10k.

Secondly, if you look at Madoff, whom I mentioned earlier, how long had he been at his scam?

I t hought I should chime in here. I usually dont' post on Dakka, I'm more often on Warseer, but this BK-bashing spree here has caught my eye.

I live in the greater Omaha area and have been buying from BK since early summer, when I first noticed the banner ads for BK on TSOALR. BK is a fully licensed GW indy retailer, they are listed in White Dwarf and on the GW site. BK is a brick and mortar (or to be more specific, since it's located in a historic building in downtown Ralston, a brick-and-mortar-and-wood) shop with a large gameroom and an impressive terrain collection. They sponsored a large 40K tourney at NukeCon 2008 at the Mid-America Center in Council Bluffs, Iowa (see http://picasaweb.google.com/silvercompassdesigns/NukeCon08# for pics of the event - Nate asked to put the pic of himself on the BK site, even though I warned him he looks stupid in the pic). I've been getting a lot of great deals through BK over the past few months.

When the Inner Circle offer showed up, I debated if I should join. I had already picked up seven Black Reach assaults boxes over the autumn season to create a large ork army, and had made money by selling the rulebooks and marine sprues piecemeal on ebay. I have joined the Inner Circle since it would allow me to basically buy at near-GW wholesale pricing to resell on ebay, plus I would get a great deal on GW stuff for my own armies. As I already sell stuff online (I own a branded apparel online business) I could easily justify the $50 for selling GW stuff. I was a little bummed out that the Inner Circle discount didn't apply to direct-only stuff (I was hoping to buy a ton of the WFB Ninja Maneaters) but the discount is still signifigant enough. In my opinion, the BKIC was better than getting a direct license from GW, becase a) I don't have a storefront so I couldn't get the license anyway and b) GW doesn't allow licensed retailers to sell on ebay, which is what I was doing without the Inner Circle membership anyway.

BK has had some opposition here in Omaha. Of the (5?) other game stores in Omaha, one (newer) game shop has been very against Nate and his operation from the very start, as their sales have obviously dropped with everyone buying their GW stuff at BK store for his standard 30% (non membership) discount. For them BK was a twofold threat - the standard lower pricing, and the fact that BK's store location in Ralston is between this other store and the rest of Omaha, so it's syphoning off a lot of walk-in sales. From what I've heard, the remaining stores in the area have not had many complaints, and according to local buzz the oldest store (Dragon's Lair, which has been around for over 25 years) gets along fairly well with him.

I have a feeling that a lot of the complaint here on Dakka is from store owners who are threatened by Nate's discounts (both Inner Cricle and standard discount), such as the poor sport in Omaha. The Inner Circle membership was a shrewd tactic, as it generated a TON of publicity for BK's in general. Nate's given the inner circle discount to a limited number of people in exchange for a guaranteed additional $2.5k a month. The membership is a standard Paypal membership, every month it withdraws $50, and after a year it asks you if you'd like to keep it going. Cancelling a paypal membership is easy, as I've done this before with other memberships. Paypal has a very good buyer protection policy, as anyone who's been screwed on ebay should know.

BK is a large operation - anyone walking in will see the tables behind the counter full of outgoing orders, and will recognize Nate's vocal complaints that UPS is late again with their pickup. It's a low-budget operation, located in an ancient wood building sandwiched between a western-themed bar/club and a weight-lifting gym, with nothing but GW posters on the walls. But it's legit.

I've talked to Nate, and I've judged his character. I don't believe him to be a con artist. That is enough for me. If its not enough for you, then I don't blame you for not buying from him.

John, I want to know, what information do you have exactly? You 'believe' him to be a con artist. you have no proof, he hasn't done anything YET, at least as far as I know. As has been said before, so could Neal be one. Or Chaos Mail Order. You don't believe either to be scammers because you've seen their track record. I personally don't believe Neal to be an honest individual, and I don't buy from him for that reason. That doesn't mean I slander his name across the internet. (I always mark my emails with the same thing, if you want the rant, than ask. I don't force the Neal Rant on public forums. ) So why, after Nate has done 2 years of honest business, do you start labeling him?

This is a matter of opinion, I don't see this as anything more than that. At bartertown, we only thrive because we get early warnings like this. But you have to have FACTS. Speculation isn't enough, and someone pointing his finger and saying "You've got all the makings of a scammer!" certainly isn't enough. So do you have any evidence?

No harm intended, I just needed to speak my mind.

I can admit that $10k wasn't the right number though, and have no POV on this 'madoff' thing, as I've never heard of it. (i think)

As a seller who used to use Paypal, I'd like to point out that Paypal Scammer Protection, actually protects the scamming buyers more then the legitmate sellers. I've been screwed several times by buyers who file a claim with paypal saying I ethier didn't ship, or shipped the wrong thing when I have documented proof that proves me right.

My balance with paypal is currently negitive because of a scumbag that claimed the $400 worth of DVDs I shipped insured were damaged on arrival and he didn't want to claim the insurance. I was even told by a paypal rep they were going to rule in my favor, put on hold, and they then just gave the buyer back his money.

that said, I'd rather just get a wholesale account from GW.

I dont think BK is a scam website, but i do think they need to focus on selling bits and then move on to other things like this service.

Ive visited the website and clicking buttons only to find empty sections is one of the most offputting things possible on a business website.

I think anyone who wants discount gw products should simply contact games workshop, then you will get about 45% discount on the overpriced lumps of plastic that they produce.

The only money to be had by dealing gw is to deal parts as the tiny profit margins and low volume involved in dealing boxed sets makes it impossible to make a living from.

The GW market is totally saturated with independant stockists and gw have a policy to give £2000 credit to anyone that applies for it, with no exceptions and without performing credit checks.

First off, I'm not a retailer, so I have no axe to grind there. If I were a retailer, I'd simply call my GW rep and have GW's license pulled for breaking the standard retail agreement.

Secondly, PayPal has poor buyer protection policy, which is why there are so many scammer buyers who reverse payment on legitimate sellers. If you buy via PayPal, and the seller empties the account with non-delivery, PayPal will not return your money out of their pocket.

JohnHwangDD wrote:First off, I'm not a retailer, so I have no axe to grind there. If I were a retailer, I'd simply call my GW rep and have GW's license pulled for breaking the standard retail agreement.

Secondly, PayPal has poor buyer protection policy, which is why there are so many scammer buyers who reverse payment on legitimate sellers. If you buy via PayPal, and the seller empties the account with non-delivery, PayPal will not return your money out of their pocket.

Or if you do send, payapl will empty the seller's account.

Paypal prefers to rape the sellers.

I think that John's persona has interfered with his message, which isn't surprising, but let me see if I can help.

If anybody had any actual evidence that this was a scam, it'd be all over the place. Every piece of actual evidence we have about BK as people suggests they're on the up and up.

However, and this is a big however, they are acting in a way that is indistinguishable from what a company that was pulling a long term con would do. Build up a rep, grab some cheap store frontage, etc. that's what a good business does, but it's also what a good con does.

There are two things that seems a little unsettling about this, and both are easy fixes. The first is that the terms and conditions of the contract seem to be flowing out slowly, and not presented in one coherent form. The second is that customers cannot use Credit Cards directly to pay for product, but rather must use paypal. As has been mentioned, credit cards give a buyer nearly perfect protection, while paypal can only give back money it still has.

it should be noted that there have been more than one businesses crop up, get big, and then collapse with people's money. The drop zone was the biggest one in memory. He had a good rep before things went south as well. Given the extreme discounting here, it seems unlikely that any money is made off of actual sales. Rather, it seems that BK must be counting on either memberships to bring in revenue, has malicious plans, or is simply biting off way more than they can chew.

Finally, it's important to keep in mind that many of the poster's here are extremely gunshy about buying and selling over the internet in general. Some have problems with eBay, others paypal. I wouldn't call it paranoia, because they're fears are legitimate, but it's simply a case of some people not accepting the risks that others do. So, yeah, some of the people here are suspicious, but they're suspicious of nearly all e-businesses.

Polonius wrote:I think that John's persona has interfered with his message, which isn't surprising, but let me see if I can help.

If anybody had any actual evidence that this was a scam, it'd be all over the place. Every piece of actual evidence we have about BK as people suggests they're on the up and up.

However, and this is a big however, they are acting in a way that is indistinguishable from what a company that was pulling a long term con would do. Build up a rep, grab some cheap store frontage, etc. that's what a good business does, but it's also what a good con does.

There are two things that seems a little unsettling about this, and both are easy fixes. The first is that the terms and conditions of the contract seem to be flowing out slowly, and not presented in one coherent form. The second is that customers cannot use Credit Cards directly to pay for product, but rather must use paypal. As has been mentioned, credit cards give a buyer nearly perfect protection, while paypal can only give back money it still has.

it should be noted that there have been more than one businesses crop up, get big, and then collapse with people's money. The drop zone was the biggest one in memory. He had a good rep before things went south as well. Given the extreme discounting here, it seems unlikely that any money is made off of actual sales. Rather, it seems that BK must be counting on either memberships to bring in revenue, has malicious plans, or is simply biting off way more than they can chew.

Finally, it's important to keep in mind that many of the poster's here are extremely gunshy about buying and selling over the internet in general. Some have problems with eBay, others paypal. I wouldn't call it paranoia, because they're fears are legitimate, but it's simply a case of some people not accepting the risks that others do. So, yeah, some of the people here are suspicious, but they're suspicious of nearly all e-businesses.

Well said, and I can completely accept that. Sorry John.

1. Bring in revenue
2. Malicious Plans
3. Bit off more than can chew

I'd have to say its #3, but Nate has said something else entirely. He said this was to help alleviate some of the pressure involved in moving product. After all, all he does for these memberships is order it then ship it. Nate has always been an overworked person and he thought this would help him stay aloft so he can focus on other things like his bitz service.

Its all about volume. I remember somebody saying that GW doesn't make as much at 42% as it does at 20%. Thats not true. Unless you are ordering directly from their site, a battle bunker, etc, then GW makes the same amount on a land raider no matter where they sell it. They sell it for 55% of retail ($30.25 USD) to Nate, To Neal, to CMO, to every FLGS on the market not directly owned by GW, to Alliance Games, etc. So if Nate sells 3 land raiders for $95.70 (42% off, 58% of retail) and Neal/CMO sells two for $88.00, then Nate just made GW 150% more profit. It doesn't matter what the end price is, GW sold one more raider to him than he did to Neal/CMO.

The same applies to Nate's endeavor. He sells it for a 3% profit, for lets say a $1000 order. Thats $30. For what? The buyer pays actual shipping, so all he wastes is 10min worth of work, a big box and packing tape. And then he turns around and works on the next one. Why should he worry about stealing money when its that easy to earn it? Its a side venture to help pay the bills and support his business. I tell you this to show the inner workings of a dropshipper, and thats what EVERY one of them does for a living. Ship stuff. Granted its not going to support everything the way hes doing it, but it helps him move product. Its only part of a business plan none of us have seen.

Thats four cents i've added now!

EDIT: I think I'll talk to nate about allowing credit cards for this membership thing, etc. I'll tell him it should alleviate some of our fears.
-Zack

@polonious: thanks, that was much better put than what I was doing.
____

@lucky: you have nothing to apologize or be sorry for.

I've paid enough dues and dodged enough bullets on e-commerce that I'm pretty skeptical about any sort of non-standard scheme like this. I actually traded with the Drop Zone, before he went rogue. And I've just seen another huge scam tied to paypal-only buying.

I'm probably just crying wolf, because, really, nothing would be better than if this worked out as a "win" for everyone.

The same applies to Nate's endeavor. He sells it for a 3% profit, for lets say a $1000 order. Thats $30.The buyer pays actual shipping, so all he wastes is 10min worth of work, a big box and packing tape. And then he turns around and works on the next one.

There is a great deal of risk involved in SELLING GW products online and to risk $1000 to make $30 is simply not worth it.If the item goes missing, gets damaged, or the buyer claims it hasnt arrived and rips the seller off via paypal etc...well the seller is scr*wed.

Also the paypal fees would be tremendous on a sum like this, i know you can pay by other ways which are cheaper but still it's worth mentioning.

Most independant stockists only order stock once they get a sale and THEN ship it, so this is also an issue,because from personal experience usually when i would place an order with gw items would be out of stock or no longer in production.

The figures dont really seem to add up to me, allthough i wouldnt go so far as to say it's a scam, id say theyre biting off more than they can chew and wouldnt touch this deal under any circumstances.

Johnny Boy: You know, I get some of the same reaction you are getting when ever I bring up a worst case scenario that was meant to be "just a scenario", not an opinion on what I thought was going to occur. Nice to know it's not just me.

I do have to say, that I have had very little contact with BitKingdom. I asked about some parts, and he told me he didn't have them. Done, right there. I got them from my FLGS.

I have seen no indications that Nate's a scam artist. The possibility is there, certainly. The possibility is also there that I could win a sizable lottery tomorrow. To be honest, I'm not holding my breathe on either account.

My impression of Nate from my emails with him is one of a lack of professionalism, and a lack of business sense. Neither is a fatal quality, and I say neither with a negative connotation. In fact, I applaude him for embarking on a venture that I would have liked to myself. However, I firmly believe that as he matures in his business these things will improve. I believe that if he does not improve in these areas, he will be regarded by a higher percentage of potential customers as "shady", because he will be presenting himself in a shady fashion.

Mod in:

I am going to lock this thread.

Everyone has had their say. A lot of it is necessarily speculation and supposition at this stage.

Everyone should bear in mind that a genuine business could be adversely affected by negative comments about scams and so on.

Let's allow Bit Kingdom to prove themselves.

Mod out.