I have heard that Imperial Guard are being `revamped` sometime in Q2 `09, but after speaking to one of the people at Games Workshop, they said there was going to be a main new unit released sometime in March. However, they would not reveal its identity and said it was a secret. I have spoked to a few people to see what they think it may be, and we settled on a new titan or a new apocalypse tank. Do you know anything on this matter, if not, what do you think it may be?

Plastic Valkerie, I'd guess.

It's probably the Shadowsword kit that's been discussed elsewhere.

Capt K

I would guess it would be a plastic valkyries to aid them with objective captures. The superheavies are simply too big for regular 40k (though honestly, who knows they may anyway).

March is next year's Apoc release, so it's the new Baneblade. Sounds like you've got a Red Shirt playing the 'I know something you don't know' line on you. Always funny when they do that...

BYE

well if he said unit i dont think it will be any kind of a tank. unless maybe its a tank with a unit of guys.

I very much doubt the distinction between 'unit' and 'tank' would have been made in such a conversation.

BYE

Yep, unit is a catch all term for infantry, tanks or even an independent character.

Valk and BB.

It would be great news if the bigwigs give a green light on the Valkyrie kit.

Well hopefully it's the Valk, as I don't play much Apoc.

I am trying to wrap my little mind around having a somewhat mobile IG army... <headasploded>


I'm worried I'll have a heart attack if they lower the price of guardsmen and chimeras, give us effective advisors, buff Ogryns, allow us to take more guns, and give us LRBT varients.

BoxANT wrote:I'm worried I'll have a heart attack if they lower the price of guardsmen and chimeras, give us effective advisors, buff Ogryns, allow us to take more guns, and give us LRBT varients.

Don't worry. For every good new thing we get, one old good thing will become bad.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BoxANT wrote:I'm worried I'll have a heart attack if they lower the price of guardsmen and chimeras, give us effective advisors, buff Ogryns, allow us to take more guns, and give us LRBT varients.

Don't worry. For every good new thing we get, one old good thing will become bad.

BYE

BS 1, to reflect the truly-abysmal training provided to the average IG inductee, no doubt.

Guard are May 2009. Cross my heart and hope to die.

Plastic superheavy in March-- see other thread.

As to what is coming out with wave one of the guard..... "Wagner". Hapy now ?

Maybe the rumored plastic Stormtroops?

Reds8n - can you speak on the rumor of the elusive Greatcoat Guardsmen?

The new IG units are the first swarm units for the Guard, the Baby Swarms.

Bought as Troop Choices. the Baby Swarm is the single most annoying noise maker the battlefield has ever seen. While completely incapable of anything other than moving randomly and screaming, the Emperor in His wisdom has found that at times the Baby Swarm can generate random psychic powers.

Fortunately, the swarm only costs 280 points, and is a mandatory choice.

And you can take more of them if you take a certain Special Character.

BYE

Mattlov wrote:The new IG units are the first swarm units for the Guard, the Baby Swarms.

Bought as Troop Choices. the Baby Swarm is the single most annoying noise maker the battlefield has ever seen. While completely incapable of anything other than moving randomly and screaming, the Emperor in His wisdom has found that at times the Baby Swarm can generate random psychic powers.

Fortunately, the swarm only costs 280 points, and is a mandatory choice.

You sure it's a Baby Swarm and not an Anti-Jervis Swarm?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Don't worry. For every good new thing we get, one old good thing will become bad.

Wait... we had old good stuff? Well I guess we did, bye bye basilisk, hellhound, LR BT as we knew them.

They're gonna make Hardened Vets suck, too

Death By Monkeys wrote:They're gonna make Hardened Vets suck, too

"Hardened Veterans have learned the best way to survive combat is to run away screaming, therefore Hardened Veterans have Leadership of 5 and fallback 3d6"

All I've recently had confirmed for me is the plastic command squad, plastic storm troopers and a plastic valkyrie. I was told that the existance of trench coat guardsmen hadn't been denied but I wouldn't get my hopes up to much

Death By Monkeys wrote:They're gonna make Hardened Vets suck, too

hardened vets didn't suck?

Hulksmash wrote:All I've recently had confirmed for me is the plastic command squad ... the existance of trench coat guardsmen hadn't been denied

If the Command Squad is a Cadian Command Squad - which makes sense given it can be based on existing sculpts - it makes even less sense to introduce a new infantry type. Maybe next time.

pcon426 wrote:hardened vets didn't suck?

They're the only good Elite choice Guard have. 3 BS4 Meltaguns + Drop Troops = 75 points of pure WIN.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:All I've recently had confirmed for me is the plastic command squad ... the existance of trench coat guardsmen hadn't been denied

If the Command Squad is a Cadian Command Squad - which makes sense given it can be based on existing sculpts - it makes even less sense to introduce a new infantry type. Maybe next time.

Sad, but an excellent point, much as I despise the Cadian helmets.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

pcon426 wrote:hardened vets didn't suck?

They're the only good Elite choice Guard have. 3 BS4 Meltaguns + Drop Troops = 75 points of pure WIN.

Tru dat, yo. Beat me to the punch, HBMC.

reds8n wrote:
As to what is coming out with wave one of the guard..... "Wagner". Hapy now ?

Charlie don't surf! Be nice to see some air cav action.

Da da diddle DAH dah, da diddle DAH da, da diddle DAH da, da diddle DAHHHHH!

However, the Valkyrie will most likely count as a fast skimmer in regular games of 40k and we all know how great those are these days.

I don't care if their rules suck, my Storm Troopers will be flying in style! No more dinky Chimeras for them. It's Inquisitorial Air Cav all the way!

BYE

Hulksmash wrote:All I've recently had confirmed for me is the plastic command squad, plastic storm troopers and a plastic valkyrie.

Any takers against the plastic Storms being the Possessed of the IG:
- cool-looking new plastic kit
- overcosted and underpowered Elite unit
- overshadowed and outclassed by cheaper, better, more capable Troops

Anyone?

He may be mad and prone to bouts of nonsensical posts, but I think John's on the money here. Every Codex has got one unit that gets a great new kit but awful rules (Possessed and Tank Busters being some of the best examples). The new Stormies could be it.

BYE

Death By Monkeys wrote:Reds8n - can you speak on the rumor of the elusive Greatcoat Guardsmen?

Sadly no.

AFAIK whilst there are plastic stormtroopers, I don't think they are coming out initially.

2 command squads from what I hear, both for the existing guard placcy models.

Stormtroopers, if what I heard is right, will be very popular.

Don't think me too rude or annoying here, I am foresworn to higher powers. But...... have you had a look at the thunderfire datafax in the latest WD

Wagner? Ride of the ..... Hopefully they sell it with an CD.

Well, after putting together my first FW Valk together I am a real sucker for the plastic version. It was not difficult, but you realize rather fast that it could have done better.

And I rally like that sizewise the SM-Codex is the bluprint for most future codizes.

Regarding trenchcoats with nice facemasks. Don´t hold your breath and start saving for the FW minis.

Whats the armor on the current Valkyrie?

If this goes with the planetfall rumors then they may have additional rules for flight mayhaps?

I wouldn´t deny the possibility of such rules.

reds8n wrote:

Stormtroopers, if what I heard is right, will be very popular.

Don't think me too rude or annoying here, I am foresworn to higher powers. But...... have you had a look at the thunderfire datafax in the latest WD

Stormtroopers are getting overwatch?

reds8n wrote: AFAIK whilst there are plastic stormtroopers, I don't think they are coming out initially.

2 command squads from what I hear, both for the existing guard placcy models.

Stormtroopers, if what I heard is right, will be very popular.

Don't think me too rude or annoying here, I am foresworn to higher powers. But...... have you had a look at the thunderfire datafax in the latest WD

Naughty boy

That's two separate rumours I thought Stormtroopers were going to be popular for another reason.

Well.... it is nearly xmas after all.

And yes, I think you are right. As usual.

BoxANT wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:They're gonna make Hardened Vets suck, too

"Hardened Veterans have learned the best way to survive combat is to run away screaming, therefore Hardened Veterans have Leadership of 5 and fallback 3d6"

lol, the "hardened" descriptor comes not from battle but from being able to face all of the name calling from new conscript platoons after they inevitably retreat from battle. each veterean is required to tatoo "stick and stones..." on his right arm! in fact, some consolidated regiments made exclusively of survivors from other destroyed regiments are known to accidently "sleep in" on the morning of battle...

i seriously hope they give the guard something nice that doesn't require me to paint another 100 models! they'd have to make IG somehow survivable to make me want to purchase a plastic valkryie. why should i make it easier for the enemy to slaughter me by bringing my lambs right up onto their altar!?!

warboss wrote:I seriously hope they give the guard something nice that doesn't require me to paint another 100 models! they'd have to make IG somehow survivable to make me want to purchase a plastic valkryie. why should i make it easier for the enemy to slaughter me by bringing my lambs right up onto their altar!?!

Well you could always slaughter them first.

H.B.M.C. wrote:He may be mad and prone to bouts of nonsensical posts, but I think John's on the money here. Every Codex has got one unit that gets a great new kit but awful rules (Possessed and Tank Busters being some of the best examples). The new Stormies could be it.

BYE

Personally, I'm betting on artillery or the redone ratlings.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Regarding trenchcoats with nice facemasks. Don´t hold your breath and start saving for the FW minis.

Bret men at arms and pig iron heads.

Though the price may be the same once you order the lasguns.

Or just order pig iron militia and voila instant trench guard.

Frazzled wrote:Or just order pig iron militia and voila instant trench guard.

I would never stoop to doing a guard army that involves less than 2 different plastic kits and parts from 2 manufactors to make one model.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Regarding trenchcoats with nice facemasks. Don´t hold your breath and start saving for the FW minis.

Bret men at arms and pig iron heads.

Though the price may be the same once you order the lasguns.

Once I made my first few test models with fully-converted, lasgun-wielding arms, I figured it wasn't worth it.

So I made my Kroot out of Krieg models instead.

stonefox wrote:Once I made my first few test models with fully-converted, lasgun-wielding arms, I figured it wasn't worth it.

Too true, man. I got excited after Dave Taylor came out with his Genswick Rifles and decided to try the conversions myself. After doing a couple I decided I had nowhere near the time to do a whole army like that.

And as far as the Pig Iron Militia for great coat guard go - the thought has crossed my mind, particularly with their new winter hat heads they've just released - if you haven't seen 'em, check 'em out at Pig Iron or Rattlehead's websites.

I am pretty stoked to hear confirmation on the Valks, though. Those are going to be so hot, though, I'm can see I'm going to have to pay cash for them rather than trade for 'em. And while I can see them being great for Stormtroopers, I am thinking along the lines of Catachans + Valks = much fun.

I can not wait for the new IG!!! Lordy, I hope they give us a Ork quality army to roll with. I love the IG, such a fun army to play.

Charlie dont surf!
Classic line!

Well, my fingers are crossed, and I sincerely hope that the Stormtroopers are not the new possessed, and for crying out loud, whatever knuckle head came up with those rules should never be allowed near a codex again. What was the guy thinking?

If I ruled GW, Phill Kelly would write every codex. But I don´t, alas.

I've been hearing all sorts of rumors about the new IG. I really like the idea of an assault 2 lasgun and LRBT's firing off all their guns at once (suddenly thinking of born to be wild, that'll be stuck in my head now) is awesome. But all I really want is doctrines to stay (I know, HMBC, but I can dream) and plastic Death Korps. Is that too much to ask? Oh yeah, and the complete removal of those filthy mutant ratlings!

If Lasguns are assault 2, shotguns aren't going to be so useful.

wait, since when have shotguns been usefull in 40k?

Yeah I was going to say.

Shotguns aren't useful now. It can't get much worse.

BYE

Hypothetically they could be useful because you could give them to a squad of vets and then blast your enemy 20 times and assault him.

That situation still involves the assault phase... I haven't had much luck with that to date but if it ever pays off I'll post!

captain.gordino wrote:Hypothetically they could be useful because you could give them to a squad of vets and then blast your enemy 20 times and assault him.

1. Vets drop with Meltaguns and kill vehicles. This is all the do. All the time. Always.
2. Once they're nerfed in the new Codex, no one will take them, so the presence or lack there of of shotguns will make little difference.

BYE

Ooo! H.B.M.Ced!!

I'm praying that it will be plastic Valkyries. Just bought about $600 of Elysian Drop Troops and don't want to fork out a ton of money for a resin one that from what most people have said is all jacked up and a pain to fix.

Same here and knowing GW the plastic variant might actually have some tasty extras that the FW won't have. As long as they come with fuel tanks and rocket pods I'm a happy camper.

Welcome, Salted, to the chaps playin Elysian Droppers. The FW Valk is not that bad, but definitely not for the unexperienced. But am also looking forward to the plastic ones, makes it cheaper to field a couple of them.

captain.gordino wrote:Hypothetically they could be useful because you could give them to a squad of vets and then blast your enemy 20 times and assault him.

I believe you have confused Storms with Eldar Dire Avengers. Storms are WS3 with bupkis on the "Alpha strike". Dire Avengers have Bladestorm, Defend, and Shimmershield, led by a WS5 Exarch with PW. *Big* difference, totally different units.

Actually he was talking about Hardened Veterans but what the heck..

BrookM wrote:Actually he was talking about Hardened Veterans but what the heck..

Yeah, I was. Could be good tying up enemy assault units, although if you mathhammer it flatter than a pancake I'm sure you'd find that it wasn't the most practical way to go about it.

I know. And I was merely commenting that doesn't work with Veterans.

Is it the new 10 Guardsman box set?

F$ck mathhammer, have fun for a change.

Or more in line with what people tell you to field: be different!

JohnHwangDD wrote:I know. And I was merely commenting that doesn't work with Veterans.

Why doesn't it work? I'm interested to know and have an open mind.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.

And in this instance, DD is like a big ol' battering ram.

BYE

Shotgun vets would be pretty useful if they were accompanied by grav shutes, shotguns, and a nice points reduction. My shotty SM scouts do fairly well for themselves with nothing but their shotguns and IDENTICAL GIANT MANFACES.

Shotgun vets could be a fairly competent counterassault unit, especially if they get to pack multiple flamers with those shotguns. Remember, guard doesn't counterassault by assault, thing counterassault by shooting you more.

shotgun vets look cool and that is it.

spacemarine scouts with shotguns look cool and that is it.

Vets either drop and blast you with melta or plasma and that is pretty much it. I have also had success running them in squads of 10 with 3 plasma and a lascannon.

I happen to like Shotgun vets. Those, and a set of Meltas or Flamers, with a nice hiden PF on the squad serg, and you have a good way of doing significent damage as you chanrge in. I have always seen my Vets as expendable. they get close to the enemy, they are very likly to die, so they need to pick what target they're going to maul.

captain.gordino wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I know. And I was merely commenting that doesn't work with Veterans.

Why doesn't it work? I'm interested to know and have an open mind.

It doesn't work because the math says it doesn't.

Let's take an example against 20 Orks - Shoota Boyz: WS4 S3 T4 I2 A2 Sv6+ - w/ mandatory PK Nob. This is roughly comparable points-wise to 10 Arbites and full-kit Avenger squad.

Your Arbites with PF Proctor:
- shoot 18, hit 12, wound 6, kill 5.
- assault 18, hit 9, wound 3, kill 2.5 Boyz
- 12 Boyz swing 24, hit 16, wound 8, kill 4 Arbites...
at this point, the Orks are up 1.5 kills in HtH, so the PFs don't matter - the Arbites will surely lose the fight, and quite possibly be run down being only I3 vs I2 Orks.

And this was a "best case" scenario with a full squad of Arbites against Shoota Boyz. Slugga boyz would have killed a couple more in HtH, guaranteeing things.


Eldar Avengers, OTOH:
- Bladestorm 27, hit 18, kill 9!!
- Exarch PW 3, hit 2, kill 1
- attack 18, hit 9, would 3, kill 2.5 Boyz
- 7 Boyz swing 7, hit 4, wound 2 kill 1 Avenger (Defend!!)
- Nob swings 2 hits 1 kills 0.5 Avenger
8+ Avengers win combat, with I6 to easily run down 7 or 8 I2 Boyz if they break. If they don't, the Eldar have the PW, WS&I, and Defend to their advantage to minimize return strikes, along with the Shimmershield to limit PF hits back.

That is why I'm saying you have the roles confused. Veterans with Assault weapons are simply not a good choice for actually Assaulting, whereas generalist Eldar Avengers can pull it off.

Veterans with Meltas or Plasma, OTOH, are very good at popping tanks or frying stuff.

Hm yes, I'll just field Dire Avengers instead of Storm Troopers or Hardened Veterans next time. This math hammer makes things so much more clear to me!

BrookM wrote:Hm yes, I'll just field Dire Avengers instead of Storm Troopers or Hardened Veterans next time. This math hammer makes things so much more clear to me!

*high five*

I have heard from my inside sources once again, and can report the following two bits of information:

1. Plastic Valkyrie - Confirmed.
2. Plastic Storm Troopers - Not confirmed.

BYE

Plastic Valkyrie = Happy dance.

Also, time to get my lootin' hat on.

Glad to hear that the higher ups have given a green light to a plastic Valkyrie kit, last what I heard during the Frenzy was that the kit had been designed and presented to the bean counters, who were still debating whether or not the kit would be worth producing.

Biggest question now of course is when can we expect the plastic Valkyrie? March or May?

Guard Codex. It'll be the big release. Personally I'm hugley excited about that. 6 Valks transporting 6 full squads of Karskin. Apoc just got a whole lot more fun, and our big Apoc scenario - Thunderhawk Down - just got a whole lot easier (and cheaper!)!!!

BYE

BrookM wrote:Hm yes, I'll just field Dire Avengers instead of Storm Troopers or Hardened Veterans next time. This math hammer makes things so much more clear to me!

The math simply shows that, in the same Alpha-Striker role, Dire Avengers should win combat, whereas Storms/Vets should lose.

You can field whatever you like, and maybe you'll get lucky. But over several games, those Storms / Vets with shotguns will be a poor choice. However, if you insist to play that sort of tactical game, then you should be playing Eldar, instead.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

BrookM wrote:Hm yes, I'll just field Dire Avengers instead of Storm Troopers or Hardened Veterans next time. This math hammer makes things so much more clear to me!

The math simply shows that, in the same Alpha-Striker role, Dire Avengers should win combat, whereas Storms/Vets should lose.

Funny how neither unit is particularly effective in that role regardless. Both are reletively high point value canon fodder with very situational uses outside of just being slightly superior then their basic troop cousins. The vets may not be as good in that specific role, but they have a massive gunline backing them up, tipping the scales just far enough into their favour without seriously hindering the lines ability to shoot more threatening objects. With the eldar you're probably going to have to redirect one of your high cost death dealing supersquads in a birdtank if you need that tiny extra edge, thus creating a level of redundancy. Guard units are designed to go in supported, it's unlikely that vet squad would ever attempt to bring down the orks alone whereas the dire avengers would almost be required too.

My inside sources have confirmed the plastic storm troopers for me and he's usually really good about it and hasn't missed once in the last 8 years on info he's "leaked" to me.

And as for the vets i love the shotgun lugging nut jobs. Hidden pf's w/2 meltas, 1 flamer and all shotguns have taken down their points if not double almost every game so I love them!

I know that 5 man suicide melta squads is the most effective usage of Vets, but I can not bring myself to use Vets in that way :( For some reason the fluff nutter inside me says Vets do not do suicide squads (thus why they are vets, they also do not use plasma).

Vets are the only way IG can get a hidden PF in our army Not cost effective at all, but fun as hell to use! And they can produce some surprising results (eg. kill stuff in assault).

hulksmash wrote:My inside sources

H.B.M.C. wrote:My inside sources

Everyone_Else wrote:My inside sources

I'm liking the sound of these inside sources. Where can I get one? Have they released them in plastic or are they only metal?

Wait, let me guess; they're only available in metal right now but your inside source has revealed that they will be available in plastic, right?

captain.gordino wrote:Have they released them in plastic or are they only metal?

Resin. They're prone to miscasts. Really annoying.

But look on the bright side; I could be hoarding the information and only letting people know that I knew something, rather than what I know.

BYE

I think Veterans also see a lot of use with 3 plasma guns and a heavy weapon, as I know some good players use it to a great effect. But yes, they'll prolly get hit by the nerf bat.

Kuato is an inside source! Inside a guy's tummy anyway..

Ork wrote:I think Veterans also see a lot of use with 3 plasma guns and a heavy weapon, as I know some good players use it to a great effect. But yes, they'll prolly get hit by the nerf bat.

Something along the lines of "1 Special weapon at 5 men, 3 and a Heavy Weapon at 10 men". And they'll be 10 points each and lose Infiltration.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ork wrote:I think Veterans also see a lot of use with 3 plasma guns and a heavy weapon, as I know some good players use it to a great effect. But yes, they'll prolly get hit by the nerf bat.

Something along the lines of "1 Special weapon at 5 men, 3 and a Heavy Weapon at 10 men". And they'll be 10 points each and lose Infiltration.

BYE

Well I don't really care about infiltration if I can Deep Strike, but if I have to take Lord General Commander Castellan Comissar Marneus Deepstrikeus to be able to Deep strike, that's going to suck.

But that's the future of Herohammer 40k! You need to tack on named characters if you want those specific abilities. I just hope they leave Gaunt out, I'm not looking forward to an army of Woobies that are always oh-so saaaaaaaad. spankers.

You can probably expect the stock drop trooper character, infiltration character, mechanized character and some sort of fancy git that allows for something completely new and not seen before.

Or we might still be getting mutable platoons where you need to upgrade the whole damn thing if you want to deep-strike those attached veterans.

I think vets should be more like the last chancers, where everyone can take something if they want, just drop the whole pay to gain the option of paying again for something. I think it'd be more interesting to run with the idea that a veteran squad is effectively the remnants of a platoon that went through the grinder. 50 went in 10 came out, and those 10 are carrying all the guns. Possibly with a Lt. still leading them, the unit becomes more distinct than stormtroopers.

What with Stormtroopers being confirmed by one half, unconfirmed byt the other and slated for 2nd wave by reds8n, seems they'll be very good in the codex.

Imagine, they'll be cheaper or able to take cheap speacial weapons. The Valk, maybe for not ludicrous points.
Everyone will want them. GW will sell a lot of the metal boxes so people can play them right after the codex comes out.
Then Bam! One year later the 2nd wave comes out with a brand new spiffy plastic kit.

Maybe I'm just sad cos I bought two boxes of the old Stormboyz after the Ork codex came out only to hear weeks later the rumours of plastics. Plastics that won't keep falling over from being top heavy half metal failures.

Still though, thanks for the rumours guys. The GW machine keeps on churning out stuff I want to buy, so their doing something right.

aka_mythos wrote:I think vets should be more like the last chancers, where everyone can take something if they want, just drop the whole pay to gain the option of paying again for something. I think it'd be more interesting to run with the idea that a veteran squad is effectively the remnants of a platoon that went through the grinder. 50 went in 10 came out, and those 10 are carrying all the guns. Possibly with a Lt. still leading them, the unit becomes more distinct than stormtroopers.

yeeah boy!!

BrookM wrote: You can probably expect the stock drop trooper character, infiltration character, mechanized character and some sort of fancy git that allows for something completely new and not seen before.

Stock?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but thats happened in all of one codex?

Thats hardly a "stock" ability. Even if its confirmed for Imperial guard then at best its an "Imperial Stock". And even then, Characters changing army layout..how is that a bad thing. It adds *shockhorrow* Character to the special characters. And its no different to the stock "Leader, fighty guy, fast guy, psychic guy, random guy" thing, only adds variation to the armys you'll see at tournaments.

I say bring on the army changing characters!

From now on Kharn the Betrayer gives all troop choices with a Mark of Khorne a Chainaxe (as they DAMN well should have anyway)

Edit: Good luck to you Imperial Guard Players. God knows you need something to promote you from "Space marine meatshields" to "Heroes of the Imperium"

I think a lot of the issues people have with special characters being tied to a particular army list style isn't as bad as people make out. In the marine codex, there are character who lend themselves to particular armies, but there are only a few instances where they change the armies actual composition.

Pedro, allows sternguard to count as scoring, but it doesn't change the foc of sternguard. Calgar allows multiple units of honor guard. The standard captain, allows bikes to be taken as troops, if he himself takes a bike. The master of the forge allows double the dreadnoughts which are kinda broken cost wise. Other than those isn't it all just a couple of abilities that affect either individual squads or require a very specific army tailoring.

Now I will say, more than there was with marines, I do see a risk of special character being taken too far. With IG there are fewer ways of justifying significant special rules in ways outside of gear, so their exists the risk that the game designers may decide to tie those rules to special charcters instead of units.

I'm inclined to say GW won't do that. We may see special characters who really shine with a particular play style, but is that ever not the case other than when the characters poorly written?

I'm just hoping that the IG for once will be made into a codex that armies will respect.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Guard Codex. It'll be the big release. Personally I'm hugley excited about that. 6 Valks transporting 6 full squads of Karskin. Apoc just got a whole lot more fun, and our big Apoc scenario - Thunderhawk Down - just got a whole lot easier (and cheaper!)!!!

BYE

I have been playing a Inquisitorial-Guard army in APOC since its release. 120 Kasrkin models, 3 FW Valks, 3 Vultures, Veterans, Carapace, etc. It is a solid example of a cool niche army. I'm writing this hoping to align all the valkyrie-wishers expectations before you spend your money.

This army looks beautiful, satisfies my need for an air-cav 40K visual, but in no way should be confused as a very effective fighting force on the APOC table top. Simply not enough firepower. When 'guard infantry go mobile they lose a lot of their heavy-weapon punch, and what with all the super heavies glowering about you need those heavy weapons.

After I get over the cost delta of buying, building, and commissioning the resin flyers and metal troopers in this army vs the projected cost of the new plastics, my only hope will be that the new IG codex finds a way in practiceto make the Valk usable in a non-APOC game of 40K, so at least I can expand the games I can use & enjoy the army.

From what I've heard the Valkyrie will count as a fast skimmer in regular 40k with the new Guard codex, as a flyer in Apocalypse and will get new flying rules when Planet Strike is released, which will most likely just replace the current Apocalypse flyer rules.

And knowing GW, they will most likely give their plastic Valkyrie kits some extra tasties to make it look better in comparison to the FW version.

Just the fact that it's plastic and the pieces fit together is reason enough to get the new GW one over the FW one

Khor'Ghurneth wrote:

BrookM wrote: You can probably expect the stock drop trooper character, infiltration character, mechanized character and some sort of fancy git that allows for something completely new and not seen before.

Stock?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but thats happened in all of one codex?

Thats hardly a "stock" ability. Even if its confirmed for Imperial guard then at best its an "Imperial Stock". And even then, Characters changing army layout..how is that a bad thing. It adds *shockhorrow* Character to the special characters. And its no different to the stock "Leader, fighty guy, fast guy, psychic guy, random guy" thing, only adds variation to the armys you'll see at tournaments.

I say bring on the army changing characters!

From now on Kharn the Betrayer gives all troop choices with a Mark of Khorne a Chainaxe (as they DAMN well should have anyway)

Edit: Good luck to you Imperial Guard Players. God knows you need something to promote you from "Space marine meatshields" to "Heroes of the Imperium"

That "stock" ability is the present basis of a hefty chunk of our codex - the doctrine system. You can have an army of drop troopers, or an army of infiltrators or a mechanised army in your overpriced Chimeras.

However, following the present trend of many codices, we're going to wind up with a special character which does the same thing as the doctrine did - a Captain Gren O'Dear who lets you count 0-3 storm trooper squads as a troops choice, a Major Perry Schute who lets your infantry deep strike, a Colonel Horatio P. Boardedge who gives infantry the infiltrate ability - yadda yadda yadda on down the line for all the things that you used to be able to do with doctrines.

New codex though? HEROHAMMER, in the grim dark and heroic future of the 41st milennium. With each of these special characters, there will be a new metal model attached (at best), or will no longer be able to use the old doctrine rules.

What was does with general before will now be done specifically, and while this might work for mighty Ultramarines (three special characters, 1000 blokes), it doesn't work at all for the Guard, who are general by nature. There are 450 regiments of Cadian shock troops - not all of them are going to have Creed and Kell. There is one legion of Ultramarines (and about a million of their cousins); you can get away with including one special character per army.

BrookM wrote:From what I've heard the Valkyrie will count as a fast skimmer in regular 40k with the new Guard codex, as a flyer in Apocalypse

Yup. But the best is that it will be plastic instead of resin, making it affordable and enjoyable!

Let's not forget that the Ork codex functioned a bit like the spess marines new codex does. Take a warboss HQ, well, nob troops! etc.
Herohammer is fine and dandy with Orks, because it just changes the FOC a little bit. Herohammer is just fine (well, mostly just fine) with spess marines because their heroes are and should be defining members of their army. That just isn't the case with IG! We have a cool system that lets us pick and choose the way we want our armies to be built because the IG is the largest and most variable amry in the universe, plain and simple. If we want the have tunneling jungle fighters we can have them! Parachuting cyborg conscripts on drugs? Sure can! The reason I play guard is because of these wacky shinagins and If they take my flexability away there will be a very nicely painted army on ebay and a sad, sad player looking tentatively towards a new necron codex.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

BrookM wrote:From what I've heard the Valkyrie will count as a fast skimmer in regular 40k with the new Guard codex, as a flyer in Apocalypse

Yup. But the best is that it will be plastic instead of resin, making it affordable and enjoyable!

I just hope they're the size of Falcons or Hammerheads. The FW Valk was a bit too big for my tastes.

If shrinking the kit a bit helps bring the price down, I'm good with that!

Raxor wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

BrookM wrote:From what I've heard the Valkyrie will count as a fast skimmer in regular 40k with the new Guard codex, as a flyer in Apocalypse

Yup. But the best is that it will be plastic instead of resin, making it affordable and enjoyable!

I just hope they're the size of Falcons or Hammerheads. The FW Valk was a bit too big for my tastes.

Take it down a notch in size? Hell no man! If you want something a tad smaller go with the Arvus Lighter

There will be special characters but the ones that have a major effect on the force org chart will be standard characters. Like tank commanders, infantry commanders, and artillery commanders for sure which will determine what you can attach to your platoon. More like the ork hqs that effect the force org than the marine super characters.

If we want the have tunneling jungle fighters we can have them! Parachuting cyborg conscripts on drugs? Sure can!

Amen to that! I love that aspect of the IG. Back in the day, the concept of IG was an army consisting of units from lots of different planets. So you had cadians, catachans, valhallans and mordian units all in the same army. It looked terrible with all the different colors in the army, but it was meant to represent the fact that the IG was almost infinetly varried.

Hopefully we see some old school IG units come back, as we have seen with Eldar, Marines, and Orks. I highly doubt it, but if we could get some Beastmen units back, or electro priests, that would be so cool. Or even penal legions with exploding neck collars!

I love that old crazy stuff they used to have. But in reality, I will be satisfied with the nex dex if they properly adjust points costs, fix ogryns and advisors and allow some flexibility in regiment building. And for all of you who say get rid of Ratlings, no way! I love the little hobbit snipers! Keep them in the dex, and if you do not want to use them, dont. Variety in a list is only a good thing in my opinion.

And as everyone else has said, plastic valkyries are just pure, unadulterated win.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ork wrote:I think Veterans also see a lot of use with 3 plasma guns and a heavy weapon, as I know some good players use it to a great effect. But yes, they'll prolly get hit by the nerf bat.

Something along the lines of "1 Special weapon at 5 men, 3 and a Heavy Weapon at 10 men". And they'll be 10 points each and lose Infiltration.

BYE

And you determine the special weapons by rolling on the Veteran Special Weapons Table. After deployment.

Kungfuhustler wrote:We have a cool system that lets us pick and choose the way we want our armies to be built because the IG is the largest and most variable amry in the universe, plain and simple.

But that's what the fluff sections in the new codex are for. Don't be surprised if we soon learn that in fact the vast majority of IG fight in 1 of 2 ways (like either Cadians or Catachans). Go go fluff retcon!

hahahaha, oh, it wouldn´t be so funny if it weren´t so true.

Well, the good old Perry models will most likely be left out this time round I think, plus Cadia is still almost completely lost to Abaddon and his 13th Black Crusade. So that leaves plenty of space for something completely generic, full pages of art or even better; excerpts from Dan Abnett's woobie saga.

Some guy named "Timspork" posted this on the Penny Arcade forums:

So I got some confirmation on the first wave of IG stuff when the Codex hits.

Plastic Cadian Command Squad
Plastic Catachan Command Squad
Re-cut Sentinel
Plastic Valkyrie

Two Metal Commissars (Commissar-Lord)
An undisclosed number of metal special characters
New metal Ratlings

No plastic stormtroopers or recut tanks/hellhound...

One guy on Warseer (*shrug*) said he's seen a pictre of an updated sentinel sprue.

charalice wrote:On the sentinel frame, I saw a lot of weapons. There are flamer, multi-laser, autocannon chainsword etc.. There also seems a heavy bolter and a plasma cannon on it lol. Although, I am not quite sure about the plasma cannon, the pic is not clear enough.

I saw of both Cadian and Catachan command squads. There are 5 models in each squad. For Cadian, the officer wears great coat.

I have to mention there is a metal officer having a master vox on his back. And there is also a master psycher...might be a special character.

Sorry, my English is poor, so I can hardly describe them...

Sentinels with plasma cannons will be interesting.

I honestly hope there is more in the first wave, the redundancy of catachan and cadian command squads leaves something to be desired. I think the Valkyrie is cool, but I don't plan on using any. Command Squads and Ratlings are the only other things we're looking at? I guess they don't want to let the cat out of the bag on redoing tanks until they can all be released at once.

If this is true, it will be the crappiest release this side of the Dark Eldar. Two plastic command boxes (any one army would ever guy either one or the other), a revamp of the Sentinel (yawn) and a Valkyrie. Yay.

And new ratlings, which are sure to be the possessed of this edition, with horrible rules and passable models.

Agamemnon2 wrote:If this is true, it will be the crappiest release this side of the Dark Eldar. Two plastic command boxes (any one army would ever guy either one or the other), a revamp of the Sentinel (yawn) and a Valkyrie. Yay.

And new ratlings, which are sure to be the possessed of this edition, with horrible rules and passable models.

Crap, pessimistic aren't we?

I actually think it's kinda nice that they haven't forgotten the Catachan line of plastics. Recut Sentinel is a good idea for the same reasons a recut Land Speeder makes sense, plus if there are new weapons I'll have to get another Company of them.

I'll admit it's a rather thin release - and I doubt the Codex itself will make up for that, considering that all our armies are going to require Special Characters to work as they once did without them - but the models that are coming could be quite good.

BYE

I'll admit it's a rather thin release - and I doubt the Codex itself will make up for that, considering that all our armies are going to require Special Characters to work as they once did without them - but the models that are coming could be quite good.

You're wrong. You're just wrong. Prickilingly, annoyingly, repeatedly wrong.

The special character editions in every codex they have been used in have been to expand upon what was previously possible. You could not do a bike space marine force before (kahn), you could not do a bike ork force before (wazdakka), you could not do a nob special force before (warboss), you could not do a dreadnaut special force before (big mek), you could not do a marine honor guard force before (calgar), you couldn't do an elite space marine gunline force before (pedro), you couldn't do a fleeting marine force before (shrike).


If you wanted to do anything similar you would either have to use a hard to get, bad, and outdated codex like speedfreeks or salamanders, and frankly you would still complain. Saying the main books are all just too generic.

Personally I'm hoping for a tank commander type of special character, it's one of those guys the Imperial Guard deserves to have. If the marines can have one then the Imperial Guard should most certainly get a tank ace of sorts.

I would love to simply have the option of veteran tank crews period. Maybe imbuing the ability to ignore shaken results and giving a +1 to BS or something. Nothing that takes up an HQ slot or anything, just a nice upgrade to go along with all the little kllcount symbols on the sides of those tanks.

Aye, a bit like how the 3rd ed. codex allowed your Vanquisher to become veteran with a point deposit, only the upgrade wasn't all that useful back then.

Agamemnon2 wrote:If this is true, it will be the crappiest release this side of the Dark Eldar. Two plastic command boxes (any one army would ever guy either one or the other), a revamp of the Sentinel (yawn) and a Valkyrie. Yay.

The redone Sentinel sounds nice - it'll have more, new weapons options so that's cool. I'll probably buy one for the bitz alone.

Plus the Valk. In plastic. The idea of having plastic Valks is so cool, I could hardly care less about the Command Squads for regiments that I don't play.
____

ShumaGorath wrote:The special character editions in every codex they have been used in have been to expand upon what was previously possible. You could not do a bike space marine force before (kahn),

Um, Shuma, I think you're off a bit here.

I know everybody likes to pretend they don't exist, but C: DA allowed SM to field a Bike force. Still does!
____

BrookM wrote:Personally I'm hoping for a tank commander type of special character, it's one of those guys the Imperial Guard deserves to have.

If the marines can have one then the Imperial Guard should most certainly get a tank ace of sorts.

Joachim Peiper, perhaps???

I'd rather IG have access to horribly overpriced (175+ pt) BS4 Tank Ace driving Exterminator as an Elite, with option to pay even more for Vanquisher.

For once I'd like a tank commander character that is NOT based on a fething nazi thank-you-very-much. They've already turned SS posterboy Michael Wittmann into a tank ace that comes with the Lucius pattern Baneblade and "Malmedy Massacre" Peiper has been given a cameo in the very first Imperial Armour softback book.

Besides, Peiper wasn't a tank commander.

BrookM wrote:For once I'd like a tank commander character that is NOT based on a fething nazi thank-you-very-much. They've already turned SS posterboy Michael Wittmann into a tank ace that comes with the Lucius pattern Baneblade and "Malmedy Massacre" Peiper has been given a cameo in the very first Imperial Armour softback book.

Besides, Peiper wasn't a tank commander.

so a tank ace should be based on a fething communist ?

Maybe put some acceptable names up here.

Um, Shuma, I think you're off a bit here.

I know everybody likes to pretend they don't exist, but C: DA allowed SM to field a Bike force. Still does!

No, that book allows you to make a dark angels force. Dark angels don't get to do things like have tanks with their bikes. The ravenwing list while extra super dark angels fluffy is very constraining and is a horrible choice when you want to make a white scars or equivalent army.

So no, DA aren't much of an option in that regard.

1hadhq wrote:

BrookM wrote:For once I'd like a tank commander character that is NOT based on a fething nazi thank-you-very-much. They've already turned SS posterboy Michael Wittmann into a tank ace that comes with the Lucius pattern Baneblade and "Malmedy Massacre" Peiper has been given a cameo in the very first Imperial Armour softback book.

Besides, Peiper wasn't a tank commander.

so a tank ace should be based on a fething communist ?

Maybe put some acceptable names up here.

I'd put Russian aces up, but then our resident Pole would shout bloody murder for the mention of the words "Soviet", "Russia" or "Communism". Though on the plus side the Ruskies did have quite a few female tank aces. *wink wink, nudge nudge*

It might be best to steer clear of historical tank aces as the "politically correct" sides (France, Great Britain and the US) didn't exactly have the right equipment or survival rates to get noteworthy aces on the ground. Sadly most German aces are from the SS, not an organization known for good PR.

BrookM wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

BrookM wrote:For once I'd like a tank commander character that is NOT based on a fething nazi thank-you-very-much. They've already turned SS posterboy Michael Wittmann into a tank ace that comes with the Lucius pattern Baneblade and "Malmedy Massacre" Peiper has been given a cameo in the very first Imperial Armour softback book.

Besides, Peiper wasn't a tank commander.

so a tank ace should be based on a fething communist ?

Maybe put some acceptable names up here.

I'd put Russian aces up, but then our resident Pole would shout bloody murder for the mention of the words "Soviet", "Russia" or "Communism". Though on the plus side the Ruskies did have quite a few female tank aces. *wink wink, nudge nudge*

It might be best to steer clear of historical tank aces as the "politically correct" sides (France, Great Britain and the US) didn't exactly have the right equipment or survival rates to get noteworthy aces on the ground. Sadly most German aces are from the SS, not an organization known for good PR.

PR won't last as we know. Seems that poster boys(girls) of dictators are always contaminated.

I agree we need pure 40k fluff based aces.

The "upgrade" character for vehicles or a "mechanized" character for army composition could be free of "homeworlds" or another
"counts as" like space marines SC.

And how much are the rumored valks rumored to cost? Are they baneblade sized? Land raider sized? Chimera sized?

Bike armies were previously available using traits.

Peiper would be a Special Character of Special Characters, and is a natural inclusion for 40k "grimdark". And historically, his record is in question - it only looks blemished because we supress what the Soviets did.

I think Wittmann would be a BS5 Tank Ace in a Vanquisher.

But if you don't use Nazis, your only other good choice is to use Soviet NKVD and Stasi types. Obviously, that's so much better...

What's wrong with a Special Character based off Patton, or Bradley

Love to see a tank commander with a riding crop, or better yet, a cavalry Stetson... which would also look good on a Valkyrie full of Stormtroopers, yelling, "Thraka don't surf."

Oh come on now, Patton was a loud-mouthed jerk (who is already partially represented by Usarker Creed, whose other half is Churchill), Bradley was a great commander, just one that preferred to stay in the background.

And John; Wittmann has already been 40k-fied by FW as Maximilian Weissmann, Baneblade ace. As for Peiper, the man was SS, more than enough reason to give him a wide berth.

What next? Otto Skorzeny? Ooh, wait! Joseph Mengele! Now that was a jolly chap. [/sarcasm]

@Ubermosh: You can only yell that when your Valkyrie has a pair of surfboards stashed somewhere and the commander has a mug of coffee handy

Necros wrote:And how much are the rumored valks rumored to cost? Are they baneblade sized? Land raider sized? Chimera sized?

I've heard we should expect it priced as a land raider, but we'll never really know till it comes out.

I think most of the people in here have reached the point I have with guard. We are tired of them sucking so bad. I refuse to play them until we get a new dex. Looksl ike its ork time.

BrookM wrote:And John; Wittmann has already been 40k-fied by FW as Maximilian Weissmann, Baneblade ace.

As for Peiper, the man was SS, more than enough reason to give him a wide berth.

What next? Otto Skorzeny? Ooh, wait! Joseph Mengele! Now that was a jolly chap.

I guess a Baneblade is a Tiger 1 then? OK.

Peiper was Waffen-SS. Minor difference.

Otto was denazified, so he's not interesting.

However, WRT a Nazi a notorious as Mengele, you give GW far too little credit. If you played Fantasy, you'd know that Mengele has already been glorified as someone that practically everybody in the Old World can take via Dogs of War:

Mengil Manhide is the sadistic, cannibalistic leader of a vicious group of Dark Elves known throughout the Old World as the Manflayers. They travel unseen across the lands under the cover of darkness, selling their savage skills to the highest bidder and adorning themselves with the flayed flesh of those they slaughter in battle.

That's right, Mengil and his team skin their victims and wear their skins as a trophies.

Even amongst the Dark Elves of Naggaroth, a nation renowned for its cruelty, ruthlessness and sadistic tendencies, Mengil of Clar Karond is particularly noted for his bloodthirsty nature. Such is his cunning and his gleefully murderous behaviour that many amongst the Dark Elves regard him as an unhinged killer. While most Dark Elves would happily slit the throat of any who got in their way in order to further their own political aims or gain more personal power so long as they could get away with it, Mengil kills for the fun of it, without care or thought of the consequences. On more than one occasion, he has slain allies merely on a whim, and many believe he has only a tenuous grip on his sanity. He is seen as dangerously unpredictable, and regarded with suspicion and distrust by other Dark Elves.

Yup, a crazy murderer among the craziest murderers in the Old World.

In one such test, Kraal released a human captive, a powerful young Norseman, into the Black Forests outside of the dark city, giving the warrior weapons and a shield. The young Mengil was sent to hunt this human, and only once he returned with evidence of the kill would he be allowed back into the city. Through the icy wilderness Mengil tracked his quarry, eventually coming face to face with the Norseman. His speed and skill with the blade was enough to overcome his larger and more powerful foe, and he rejoiced in the thrill of the kill, smeared blood across his face and he drank deeply from the powerful heart of his fallen enemy, before skinning the Norseman and eating his flesh. While in the wilds, he sharpened his teeth to points, making him look particularly fearsome. Mengil wore the bloodied skin as a cloak as he walked back into Clar Karond, earning him the respect of his father and the honorific title ‘Manhide’.

Mengil was forced to fight for his life against his brethren, killing two of his murderous siblings in one night. He ripped the skin from their bodies, and had their bloodied, skinless corpses delivered to his one remaining brother as a warning.

Lovely, eh?

So really, all we have left is Himmler and Goebbels.

Joseph Mengele was a doctor, Göring was a former pilot and Himmler and Goebbels never really made it onto any battlefield. And besides, Mengele really was a satan in human disguise, the experiments he put human beings through most of us can´t even imagine.

If you are looking for a good Panzer commander go for Erwin Rommel (aka Desert Fox/ Wüstenfuchs)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel

He was extremly good in his job and was not a real friend of the Nazis, so it should be not that problematic using him.

Besides, I really look forwar to getting my Valks a little bit cheaper than the FW ones.

How about Oddball from Kelly's Heroes as a special character tank commander?

Mengele is Fabius Bile, is he not? With a good amount of Doctor Moreau thrown in as well?


Besides, nazis aren't too riske for this game. Horus was satan and was called such in the fiction by several. The white scars are all taken from the mongol khans, who if history is correct loved the raping and pillaging. One of the games races exists to torture and rape people, and do little else. Honestly all that silly naziesque characters would serve to do is make the game more interesting for WW2 nuts. The war ended 54 years ago, I think the wounds have had time to heal.

Unless your jewish and were alive back then. They might still hold a grudge but otherwise I agree

Necros wrote:And how much are the rumored valks rumored to cost?

£35.

reds8n wrote:

Necros wrote:And how much are the rumored valks rumored to cost?

£35.

Seriously?

I'm so going to make Airborne Guard..

No, that book allows you to make a dark angels force. Dark angels don't get to do things like have tanks with their bikes. The ravenwing list while extra super dark angels fluffy is very constraining and is a horrible choice when you want to make a white scars or equivalent army.

So no, DA aren't much of an option in that regard.

What do you mean they don't get to have tanks with their bikes? Not since the new codex. Infact I know of a couple folks who used DA to make their White Scars, to include razorback tacticals, predators, etc.

Now on topic, that is a really really thin release if true. Utterly disappointing.

A slight side trip.

Why is it that Khan enables you to field a bike force? Does he in some way count as a Space Marine Captain on bike? And where does it says so?

ShumaGorath wrote:

I'll admit it's a rather thin release - and I doubt the Codex itself will make up for that, considering that all our armies are going to require Special Characters to work as they once did without them - but the models that are coming could be quite good.

You're wrong. You're just wrong. Prickilingly, annoyingly, repeatedly wrong.

This is going to be fun.

The special character editions in every codex they have been used in have been to expand upon what was previously possible. You could not do a bike space marine force before (kahn),

Unless you used the traits in the 4th edition codex, the old DA codex, or the White Scars Index Astartes list from 3rd edition.

you could not do a bike ork force before (wazdakka),

Outside of Kult of Speed or the Klan rules for Evil Suns...

you could not do a nob special force before (warboss),

You could get a Nob bodyguard for each warboss as dedicated retinue, and the goffs could take skarboys.

you could not do a dreadnaut special force before (big mek),

This one is true. Of course, Death Skulls could take a looted vehicles as a troop, so Orks had Leman Russ as a troops choice...

you could not do a marine honor guard force before (calgar),

Again, yes, you could not include more than 2 honor guards in an army before the new rules for Calgar. That's an unlocked option that will allow for all kinds of incredible army builds.

you couldn't do an elite space marine gunline force before (pedro),

You're kidding, right? I mean, there were some pretty obscure rules for building elite shooty marine armies before, but most people didn't play where the 4th edition Space Marine codex was legal. Oh wait....

Seriously, 6 man las/plas, duel AC termie squads, tornados, and cheap librarians made for some fun little armies.

you couldn't do a fleeting marine force before (shrike).

This one is true. It came at the expense of the loss of the original Shrike's wing, but Shrikes rules are new.

If you wanted to do anything similar you would either have to use a hard to get, bad, and outdated codex like speedfreeks or salamanders, and frankly you would still complain. Saying the main books are all just too generic.

I get that you don't like HBMC's endless cynicism, and you've apparently taken it upon yourself to respond to every one of his posts with zeal, pointing out his negativity. This of course makes you even more negative and bitter, except you're not funny when you do it, while he often is. HBMC comes off like a cranky old curmudgeon that is amusing, you come off like a guy with some irrational ax to grind.

smart_alex wrote:I think most of the people in here have reached the point I have with guard. We are tired of them sucking so bad. I refuse to play them until we get a new dex. Looksl ike its ork time.

Hehehehehee, yeah, people keep telling me how bad IG suck.......
Players in my club are worried about what's gonna happen when I get a new codex, seeing as how I do rather well with the current IG. Just took Best General in our Winter Escalation League.

Polonius wrote:

you couldn't do a fleeting marine force before (shrike).

This one is true. It came at the expense of the loss of the original Shrike's wing, but Shrikes rules are new.

I hate people who play this build... such unforgivable cheese. Maybe there should be another thread titled: space marines win because the herohammer codex writers are boneheads. The herohammer boneheads might allow an all leamen russ build but it won't even compare to 1/2 the builds you have just described unless tanks can also fight in melee w/ initiative 6.

Steelmage99 wrote:A slight side trip.

Why is it that Khan enables you to field a bike force? Does he in some way count as a Space Marine Captain on bike? And where does it says so?

SM codex page 130

kungfuhustler wrote:I hate people who play this build... such unforgivable cheese. Maybe there should be another thread titled: space marines win because the herohammer codex writers are boneheads. The herohammer boneheads might allow an all leamen russ build but it won't even compare to 1/2 the builds you have just described unless tanks can also fight in melee w/ initiative 6.

Can't see such unreliable d6 move as
Maybe we need a thread: Why do I need to complain about SM if I play IG

1hadhq wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:A slight side trip.

Why is it that Khan enables you to field a bike force? Does he in some way count as a Space Marine Captain on bike? And where does it says so?

SM codex page 130

Nice oversight on my behalf. Thank you.

You could not do a bike space marine force before (kahn)

What you mean like a little trait known as Sift as the Wind? That allowed you to take Bike Squads of at least 5 models as troops or elites? That totally doesn't sound like a bike for ce does it? DOES IT??!?!

See: thread title

Ratbarf wrote:

You could not do a bike space marine force before (kahn)

What you mean like a little trait known as Sift as the Wind? That allowed you to take Bike Squads of at least 5 models as troops or elites? That totally doesn't sound like a bike for ce does it? DOES IT??!?!

Yeah, I didn't recall the bike force trait. My mistake.

Unless you used the traits in the 4th edition codex, the old DA codex, or the White Scars Index Astartes list from 3rd edition.

The only thing that could be buildable through traits was the bike force which I missed entirely. The old DA codex isn't useful to anyone any more and other than being hilariously out of date and near impossible to get ahold of outside of pdf form the index astartes articles are also not useful to anyone.

utside of Kult of Speed or the Klan rules for Evil Suns...

Which have been illegal ever since the armageddon book became illegal (and difficult to find in stores well before that). Unless I'm mistaken here. It was a third edition release that went away a while ago wasn't it?

You could get a Nob bodyguard for each warboss as dedicated retinue, and the goffs could take skarboys.

Didn't goffs taking skarboyz require ghazgull before?

This one is true. Of course, Death Skulls could take a looted vehicles as a troop, so Orks had Leman Russ as a troops choice...

And most other imperial vehicles. Though they were all hindered by high points, bad rules, and the orks terrible BS. The LR and the basilisk were really the only ones at all worth taking. Giving a battlewagon a boomgun gives it the same armor values and weaponry as a leman russ now, so that option is still around, you just need to convert up a LR.

Again, yes, you could not include more than 2 honor guards in an army before the new rules for Calgar. That's an unlocked option that will allow for all kinds of incredible army builds.

Who cares how good the army builds are, it's fluffy and cool. Its an extra set of options that wasn't around before.

Seriously, 6 man las/plas, duel AC termie squads, tornados, and cheap librarians made for some fun little armies.

Thats just a space marine force. Not any sort of elite first company detachment.

I get that you don't like HBMC's endless cynicism, and you've apparently taken it upon yourself to respond to every one of his posts with zeal, pointing out his negativity. This of course makes you even more negative and bitter, except you're not funny when you do it, while he often is. HBMC comes off like a cranky old curmudgeon that is amusing, you come off like a guy with some irrational ax to grind.

Irrationality is fun when its directed at irrationality. It's like two crazy people hitting each other with fish.

Yay for staying on topic!

Valks=Yes

Storms made better= Yes

Overwatch=Yes

KP fix for IG=Yes, please

Fortification rule=yes

Ratlins and Ogryn = Replace with cybernetically enhanced humans(no enhanced does not=SM, but on the other hand a joint force list would be nice)

focusedfire wrote:Ratlins and Ogryn = Replace with cybernetically enhanced humans

Jebus, and people get on my case for wanting things to be cleaned up?

At least I don't try to flush the old, *good* Fluff down the toilet!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

focusedfire wrote:Ratlins and Ogryn = Replace with cybernetically enhanced humans

Jebus, and people get on my case for wanting things to be cleaned up?

At least I don't try to flush the old, *good* Fluff down the toilet!

I don't agree with you that often but on this I am behind you 100%

Ratlings aren't good fluff, they are an excuse for halflings in 40k. Ratlings need a good exterminatus to wipe the last visages of "silly" 40k from existence.

Ogryns can stay, they are plenty grimdark and awesome.

*double post*

@Shuma: Ever try to get rid of rats? Not easy.

I've never tried to bomb earth into nothingness with a fleet of fifteen mile long starships. I think that'd get 'em!

Necros wrote:Kuato is an inside source! Inside a guy's tummy anyway..

Um.... that's way awesome! What the heck is that from?

ShumaGorath wrote:Ratlings aren't good fluff, they are an excuse for halflings in 40k. Ratlings need a good exterminatus to wipe the last visages of "silly" 40k from existence.

Ogryns can stay, they are plenty grimdark and awesome.

I think the silliness is part of what makes 40k awesome. Too much grimdark gets ridiculous. It needs to be tempered with halfling snipers, among other things.


And what about plastic deathkorps? That was my reason for starting a guard army!

Noisy_Marine wrote:

Necros wrote:Kuato is an inside source! Inside a guy's tummy anyway..

Um.... that's way awesome! What the heck is that from?

[arnold]Maaaz![/arnold]

Ratlins and Ogryns don't fit with the supreme human fascist fluff. They'd fit better with the Tau.

focusedfire wrote:Ratlins and Ogryns don't fit with the supreme human fascist fluff. They'd fit better with the Tau.

I dunno about that. They're primitive races press-ganged by their "betters" to fight and die in wars they themselves understand nothing about. That's plenty fascist enough for me.

They're still human, so they fight as part of the Imperium.

Tau has non-human allies.

Hey, I love the ratlings. They're probably one of the best examples in the game of fluff, models, and rules painting a seamless picture of an aspect of a 40k army. I dont' see a problem with people fielding human snipers instead of halflings, but if there are planets full of tiny sneaky gits with good aim, even in the grim dark future those talents will be harnessed.

i love the ratlings too, old Stumper Muckstart from 2nd edition was the man!

Ratlings, Ogryns, are cool, and why would anyone want them out of the codex? leave them in and if you dont like them, then dont use them, its not that difficult. Variety is good in a codex, that way not all armies are the same.

If they bring back penal legions with exploding neck collars again, i am a happy man.

The catachan command squad and new sentinal with more weapons sound sweet, i am really looking forward to that.

also, how can anyone think this new release is going to be boring, for one we dont know what all will be in it, and if you are not excited by platis valks then you have become one jaded gamer!

JohnHwangDD wrote:They're still human, so they fight as part of the Imperium.

Tau has non-human allies.

They are mutants and need to be purged.

ShumaGorath wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:They're still human, so they fight as part of the Imperium.

Tau has non-human allies.

They are mutants and need to be purged.

xenos have to be exterminated. And mutants have to be used as cannonfodder vs xenos

1hadhq wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:They're still human, so they fight as part of the Imperium.

Tau has non-human allies.

They are mutants and need to be purged.

xenos have to be exterminated. And mutants have to be used as cannonfodder vs xenos

Heresy! *blam*

@Shuma: The Imperium distinguishes pretty clearly between humans, acceptable abhumans, and non-human mutants.

Ratlings, Ogryns, Beastmen, and Squats are all acceptable abhumans, so may continue in the Emperor's beneficent grace.

That's actually one of the things that makes the Imperial Church reasonably (very reasonably) interesting. It closely mirrors the highly dissembled traditions of many real faiths. Basically, if something is useful its acceptable, if not its heresy.

Also, Ratlings are silly. 40k is silly (need we go through the Primarch homoerotic allegory lesson?). Let it be.

BTW, no plastic Krieg.

Polonius wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:The special character editions in every codex they have been used in have been to expand upon what was previously possible. You could not do a bike space marine force before (kahn),

Unless you used the traits in the 4th edition codex, the old DA codex, or the White Scars Index Astartes list from 3rd edition.

Not to mention Codex Ultramarines for 2nd edition allowed an entirely bike-mounted army. The Space Marine army list in the 40K Compendium for 1st edition allowed the same thing (in its own way). In fact, it's been more-or-less possible to field an all-bike Space Marine army for as long as 40K has been around.

Noisy_Marine wrote:And what about plastic deathkorps? That was my reason for starting a guard army!

I highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, doubt that ever coming into the mainstream. If the rumors of Greatcoats are true, then expect a whole new line of scary men. I'd think DKOK were too much of a moneyspinner for Forge World, at their extortionate prices, meaning that they wouldn't just hand them over to GW for Plastic Development.

~sA

Duncan_Idaho wrote:BTW, no plastic Krieg.

WTF is all this faggotry about "plastic krieg"?! KRIEG ARE PLASTIK MODELS TO BEGIN WITH. I'd be happy as gak with METAL kreig produced w/ a USD pricetag. It's never gonna happen...

Krieg are resin, not plastic. There is quite a difference between the two chemically(most people know this though).

Plastic Krieg would sell stupidly well; not the least because they model would not be shifted/squished/over-vaccumed, as can happen with Forgeworld models, and because they would be a lot sturdier. But, all signs point to no plastc Krieg-ish models for a while.

JohnHwangDD wrote:They're still human, so they fight as part of the Imperium.

Tau has non-human allies.

Tau have Human allies. More and more all the time.

The ratling and ogryn homeworlds are a bit far from the Tau empire, Segmentum Obscura. They'd need to be in the Ultima Segmentum to have a strong enough presence to be recruited enmasse by the Tau.

(off-topic)I guess its time to reverse engineer that Necron star drive that they found.

What I was suggesting on my Ratlings comment, was that It'd make for a good excuse to introduce new models. Use some of the beloved old themes because some of these oppressed groups were "suddenly" less reliable and had to be replaced with units that could be trusted a bit more. As long as these new units actually fit with and fulfill the needs of the IG.

focusedfire wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:They're still human, so they fight as part of the Imperium.

Tau has non-human allies.

Tau have Human allies. More and more all the time.

Allies?


Soon to be purified human "allies" I think.

@ff: There are lots of non-human aliens that could be used instead and more interestingly. The very presence of Tau-allied Hrud infiltrators and Donorian Clawed Fiends would do a lot to clarify the roles of Ratlings and Ogryns respectively, along with Tau vs Guard overall.

@DD, agreed. How about the option of the aforementioned units for puritan armies?

You are all heretics, and I will see the emperors mercy granted on every one of you for consorting with mutants.


Now where is my hat..

ShumaGorath wrote:You are all heretics, and I will see the emperors mercy granted on every one of you for consorting with mutants.


Now where is my hat..

Shuma, You make me

@ff: if you want to phys-rep Ratlings as weedy human snipers, or Ogryns as humans in combat suits, that'd be just fine, I think.

Ogryns == Adeptus Mechanicus combat robots.

... combat robots that are afraid of the dark.