Nah, not yet.

Scared you though didn't I. Well it scared me too.

No worries, it's just the War Store selling painted Black Reach Marines.

http://www.thewarstore.com/PAINTEDBlackReach.html





Not bad. And just $30 for a dread.

Why would that be scary? Could I get some PPP Guardsmen Squads?

Scottywan82 wrote:Why would that be scary? Could I get some PPP Guardsmen Squads?

We talked about GW doing prepaints once and people were swearing they would never buy anything from GW again.

I wouldn't.

Kind of defies the nature of the GW Hobby Game. What the models do on the board is only part of the appeal!

And GW knows that well enough.

I remember when people screamed bloody murder when GW announced the snap-fit models for their starter sets.

You scared me!

Prepainted would kill it for me also... like it killed everything it touched...

I don't think it would be a bad thng for for things like Guardsmen and very generic troops that won't hve a large variance.

Of course, I can't come up with anything that would work on other than Guardsmen...

Couldn't you just repaint the pre-painted stuff? I mean, this might be handy if you have to get an entire Imperial Guard regiment you could get the pre-painted platoons and simply paint your commanders and stuff. Especially for Apocalypse stuff this would be great.

Not the point.

IT means kids getting into it without developing the hobby. Pre-paints, essentially, are the anti-thesis of GW's plan.

yes you could Malika2, but then why pay for prepainted in the first place?

If they switched to prepainted, they better change the rules, because prepainted
40k 3,4 and 5e wouldn't give me very much reason to keep buying stuff.

Also prepainted plastic is more expensive than just plastic... and ussualy less detailed.
In GW it would be a confliting product.

Hmm, it didn't look too bad with Rackam's AT-43 I think...

far away looks good

But when you hold them up close..

Marines are better than guard since there are popular chapters with set color schemes. Even the Cadians don't have a single color scheme someone could mass produce.

Hmm, well what about letting people choose? You could have some ranges of pre-painted stuff but also have the normal material. The normal material would be great for those who can paint or want to learn to paint, kind of what we have now while the pre-painted stuff would be nice for those who only want to game and have no interest in the hobby or don't have the skills to do it.

I mean, I'd rather see battle-reports with decent looking pre-painted stuff than battlereports with non-painted models on there!

Malika2 wrote:Hmm, well what about letting people choose?

NEVER!

I don't get this rage about PPP GW, especially if they also keep up the range of non-painted stuff. I have a feeling IF they ever did it, and that's a long shot anyway, it's only be Troops/Core units and even then most likely just stuff you'd need tons of anyway, like Guardsmen, Empire State Troops, Gaunts, Orks, Orcs, Goblins, Skaven, etc. It also seems it'd be more useful for Fantasy horde armies than anything for 40K.

Then again, I like PPP Rackham and the newer stuff for AT-43 looks good, even up close.

I don't understand the push for prepainted. If you want to pay a premium for them to get painted there are plenty of painting services that will do it to your specifications. If GW were to do it, they would dumb down the existing minis (you couldn't assemble the way you want and conversions would be harder and more expensive). And currently, GW has a hard enough time supporting all of its existing product lines (slow codex release schedule etc.) to take on yet another range of products.

Hobby Game.

It's there in the title. Hobby.

Play a boardgame if you don't want to paint stuff, or get paintedfigs to do it for you.

Valhallan42nd wrote:Hobby Game.

It's there in the title. Hobby.

Play a boardgame if you don't want to paint stuff, or get paintedfigs to do it for you.

Again, I call BS on this. Collecting porcelain figures and action figures are also considered hobbies and don't require anything your so called Hobby Game needs. CCGs and CMGs are still considered hobbies, despite not needing any assembly or painting. This reasoning didn't hold up in the AT-43 vs 40K thread and it doesn't hold up here, since you can still convert and repaint PPP. Collecting is a hobby(ie. anything done outside of one's occupation), no matter what GW tells us.

they should make prepainted EPIC models that would be cool.

^ Agreed.

I would love prepainted models as long as the poses and paint jobs were okay, painting is the one thing I hate most about this hobby and I don't really have the money to get an army painted fully by someone else anways. You can always just touch up the pre paints anyways if they are a bit sloppy, its what I did for ma Heroclix figures.

The push for prepainted is simple:

Time and money.

I have so many friggin' figs to paint I will probably never be done even if I paint 5 per day. And I don't paint that fast because I want my stuff to look good.

Sure, I could pay to have someone else paint them, but I already paid for the models, and most people charge ridiculous rates. $7 per model in a Troop squad? That's more than $200 for ONE unit of gaunts. You have to be kidding me. I feel I rip people off at $3 a model for table top quality. Let alone the $0.50 per color I charge for characters.

Mattlov wrote:And I don't paint that fast because I want my stuff to look good.

I've never seen a prepainted mini that comes close to someone's slow dedicated effort to make their minis look good. Prepaints are typically below average tabletop quality standard and they cost more than non-painted minis.

Tazok wrote:

Mattlov wrote:And I don't paint that fast because I want my stuff to look good.

I've never seen a prepainted mini that comes close to someone's slow dedicated effort to make their minis look good. Prepaints are typically below average tabletop quality standard and they cost more than non-painted minis.

Completely anecdotal, for one, and untrue for two. Are we discussing the amount of plastic in a given kit? Because I cite any elite unit made by GW as evidence that this is not true. Sure, maybe a comparable company (Rackham, for instance) effectively charges more per mini for elites, but they don't charge more per BOX for elites like GW does. $30 for a 10-man tac squad, $50 for 5 termies. AT-43 is $30 for 8 Infantry and then $30 for 3 elites. Already cleaned, already assembled, ready to play out fo the box. So no spending a weekend doing all that. I play with them day 1. And they are 100% repaintable if you want them up to your "standards". And as for dollar to dollar, of course PPP is more expensive. Until you calculate in the time spent to paint the unpainted minis. Do it at 50% of minimum wage. It'll cost you more per figure if you spend even 3 hours on a 10 man squad.

As to paint jobs, you must only be factoring in people who actually PAINT their minis. That's a completely unfair comparison. Compare PPP with the number of total minis in a range. How many people purchase and assemble, but then never paint, or half paint a figure? Sure their Leader looks great. Too bad the rest of his marines are matte black, or a lovely shade of gray. Poll on here what percentage of a persons total miniatures collection (excluding prepaints) is painted. The answer will probably be an average of 30-40%. Whereas 100% of a PPP mini is painted and ready.

Platuan4th wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:Hobby Game.

It's there in the title. Hobby.

Play a boardgame if you don't want to paint stuff, or get paintedfigs to do it for you.

Again, I call BS on this. Collecting porcelain figures and action figures are also considered hobbies and don't require anything your so called Hobby Game needs. CCGs and CMGs are still considered hobbies, despite not needing any assembly or painting. This reasoning didn't hold up in the AT-43 vs 40K thread and it doesn't hold up here, since you can still convert and repaint PPP. Collecting is a hobby(ie. anything done outside of one's occupation), no matter what GW tells us.

I collect action figures, but I paint them. Ever since I started painting figurines my standards have been too high to tolerate mistakes on the paint of my figures. Seriously, I think out of the thousands of figures I own only a handful have received no modifications to the paint.
Back on topic, I would not buy painted miniatures.

Platuan4th wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:Hobby Game.

It's there in the title. Hobby.

Play a boardgame if you don't want to paint stuff, or get paintedfigs to do it for you.

Again, I call BS on this. Collecting porcelain figures and action figures are also considered hobbies and don't require anything your so called Hobby Game needs. CCGs and CMGs are still considered hobbies, despite not needing any assembly or painting. This reasoning didn't hold up in the AT-43 vs 40K thread and it doesn't hold up here, since you can still convert and repaint PPP. Collecting is a hobby(ie. anything done outside of one's occupation), no matter what GW tells us.

You're allowed to call BS all you want. It's my opinion, not fact. Is there a difference between getting someone else to paint your mini's for you, or having them painted before hand? There is an extra step, and you're then aware of the additional cost of labor. With prepaints, the company will then pass that cost along to you.

Given the additional labor, which would likely be either UK or US based, there would be significant increase in price, and a drop in army diversity, since chimpy lazy s will then flock to the stock options. A retailer would then also need to stock at least two of the same sku, the prepaint and unpaint type. Heaven forbid that you want yellow marines instead of blue.

Of course, the company could go with cheap Asian labor, but I like the fact that the models I buy are produced in countries that have some semblance of health regulations. The Thames is filthy, but I'd still rather swim there than the Yang-tse.

NAVARRO wrote:You scared me!

Prepainted would kill it for me also... like it killed everything it touched...

*shrugs* AT-43 has a decent following at my LGS. I'm not against the idea of prepainted, as long as it didn't look horrible. Some of us have no artistic talent at all.

Valhallan42nd wrote:You're allowed to call BS all you want. It's my opinion, not fact. Is there a difference between getting someone else to paint your mini's for you, or having them painted before hand? There is an extra step, and you're then aware of the additional cost of labor. With prepaints, the company will then pass that cost along to you.

I wasn't calling BS on your opinion, I was calling BS that somehow GW's games are a "Hobby Game" and somehow other games aren't a hobby because they don't require hours of removing from sprue, clean, assemble, and paint, as by definition a hobby is anything you do outside of your occupation.

I chocked on my sandwich You scared me for a minute there

djones520 wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:You scared me!

Prepainted would kill it for me also... like it killed everything it touched...

*shrugs* AT-43 has a decent following at my LGS. I'm not against the idea of prepainted, as long as it didn't look horrible. Some of us have no artistic talent at all.

Neither do I. Over time, I've learned cheats that will help me feign artistic skill. I might still fall mid-pack when it comes to painting, but it's more satisfying to me to know that I did it. Winning the lottery might change my mind, but I doubt it.

I think the basic argument comes down to what players will want on a game day.

Like others have said, the hobbyist (guys who can paint decent enough to show thier figures in public) will continue to paint, glue, etc.

However, the non hobbyist are buying the units either way. So you fight

A. A unpainted bunch of gray figures with glue leaking out of thier joints.

B. A prepainted army that hurts your pride as a artist.


Your choice of course.

Plus some people are already hiring to have thier models painted. So what's the difference between someone paying to get models painted and telling you they painted it versus prepainted models and they tell you they painted it?

As for the hobby stores, long as there are fans of pre painted and non painted they will try to cater to both.

Games Workshop would never fully convert, if at all, too prepainted for one simple reason - Golden Demon. A major part of Games Days would be gone.

I've never seen a prepainted mini that comes close to someone's slow dedicated effort to make their minis look good. Prepaints are typically below average tabletop quality standard and they cost more than non-painted minis.

And that´s the problem.

During the last german Warmachine championship 1/3 of the armies showed up unpainted. And you need less minis than for 40K. Also at least 2/3 of the armies I encounter barely make it up to the prepainted standard AT has. There are some people who really produce a decent paintjob (and I am definitly one of them) but the majority can´t.

At least AT minis are what I call tabletop standard, i.e. not hurting your eyes when watching them from 2-3f. away. And they are easy to repaint. Heck we even do have painting competitions with AT minis over here. Besides Rackham is going to produce some kits of existing products, so if you really want you can get them unpainted (at least the walkers for now). So GW doing PPP and traditional unpainted ones seems not that far off.

?!? oh it's a joke ... that said i would start an IG army if conscripts came prepainted

Platuan4th wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:You're allowed to call BS all you want. It's my opinion, not fact. Is there a difference between getting someone else to paint your mini's for you, or having them painted before hand? There is an extra step, and you're then aware of the additional cost of labor. With prepaints, the company will then pass that cost along to you.

I wasn't calling BS on your opinion, I was calling BS that somehow GW's games are a "Hobby Game" and somehow other games aren't a hobby because they don't require hours of removing from sprue, clean, assemble, and paint, as by definition a hobby is anything you do outside of your occupation.

Sure thing, there are the freakiest hobbies outhere... as for prepainted the only thing hobby related you can do with it is buying them... if you consider shopping a hobby then your lucky.

There are lots of camouflaged issues PPP fans avoid to talk about like:

- If its prepainted why does it have horrible mouldlines that need to be cleaned and then PPP is ruined and you have to paint it again?
- Prepainted plastic details are subpar dont know if its the paint layer or the special plastics that takes paint but those are nasty detailwise.
- Theres already a more affordable offer for people who dont want to paint and those are painting studios like bluetablepainting... that paints better than quality level PPP and is more affordable.
- Overall Design and pose of the miniatures suffers a lot ( we seen this at rackham) theres some kind of prepainted plastic machine handling limitations for sure.
- Its more expensive!
- Every company who said ppp is better than slice bread is in trouble.

The only thing PPP brings to the wargame industry is a downgrade of the sculpt quality, drain resources from companies and leeches customers for premium PPP costs!

Yes I love it


Edit: The "you can repaint ppp argument" amuses me If you guys like to spend money for a painted fig and then spend money on repainting it, its your call... the diference is that you can paint a better and cheaper detailed mini more apropriate for painting in the first place... Its like the guy that dips his head in a paint bucket and trows himself against the wall... its still paint and hairs but he could use just a brush to paint the wall in the first place

Malika2 wrote:Hmm, it didn't look too bad with Rackam's AT-43 I think...

The reason for that is Rackham's dishonest practice of showing off studio paintjobs instead of the actual ones you get in the box. They look considerably nastier in the flesh than they do in promos.

The only question that matters to GW is if sales would increase because of pre-painted figures or not.

I don't see AT43 having taken a big chunk of the 40K market, which may mean something or nothing.

I was thinking about this today when I looked at Gundam kits. Gundam (and most Japanese giant robot kits) can be made to look good without even a lick of paint because the plastic parts are molded from plastic that is already roughly the color of the finished piece. I've put together a few robot kits, as as far as I can tell the different coloring has absolutely no impact on the quality of the molding. The cheaper kits have different sprues in one box (so a red sprue full of red bits, a blue sprue full of blue bits, and 3 white sprues full of white bits for example), but I've seen kits with 2 different colors on the same sprue- it looks like two half-sprues of different colors are clamped together with a socket-and-plug joint.

Now obviously a model kit for a particular robot that is probably only going to be painted in a particular color scheme to match the TV show is different kettle of fish from a Warhammer army built around customizability. And yet, I wonder if elements of this might be a more reasonable step than pre-paints. Imagine an undead army with all of the skeletons already molded in bleached bone, with all of the weapons and shields moulded in black and all of the bases molded in desert yellow. Imagine orks with all the boyz molded in green plastic and all of the armor/weapon bitz molded in black. And of course, chapter-specific Space Marine boxes could be molded in their chapter colors.

I think unpainted models are going to obviously look worse than painted models. Even if the plastic is molded in the right colors, it still has a sheen like plastic and you can see little fluctuations in color not by shadows, but by the thickness of the material behind it. But unpainted plastic that is at least in the right color looks better than unpainted grey plastic on a black base. I remember one of the first model kits I ever built was some red Gundam with big, black shoulder cannons. It was already molded in all the right colors so I barely painted anything- just ran a black ink pen over all the joints between armor plates and doused it all with gloss sealer, and it looked pretty good to my 14-year-old eye. The confidence I gained from that kit saw me through several other kits where I DID try painting. And even though most of those paint jobs turned out to be complete disasters, it's now more than a decade later and I'm still at the hobby. And though I'm not steeped in the Gundam fan community, model shops in Japan at least don't seem to be overrun with lazy kids not bothering to paint their models.

If GW must make their models easier in order to draw new people into the hobby, I'd much rather see it with plastic molding than with prepaints.

Before it closed my LGS had a bin w/ nothing but pre-painted mini's in it. Hero Clix, D&D and everything else and I've never heard anything of AT-43 til now tbh. The appeal for me was always painting and modding my minis. The only reason I got started gaming WH40k was because while I was buying some of the figures, Lilith Hesperax for one, the salesman asked if I played. The rest is history.

I've never seen a pre-painted mini come anywhere close to the level of detail available on GW's line of miniatures or of any unpainted miniatures. Even the mini's I have from Ral Partha back in the 80's have more detail than the crap that gets passed off for pre-painted mini's.

What's worse is that if GW went w/ pre-painted, they'd likely do the same thing that everyone else has by making the minis uncommon, common and rare so you'd have to buy/ebay to get the exact mini's you'd want. That kind of crap sucks.

On a side note: Was this just some way to get some stuff started Kid_Kyoto?

JOHIRA wrote:I was thinking about this today when I looked at Gundam kits. Gundam (and most Japanese giant robot kits) can be made to look good without even a lick of paint because the plastic parts are molded from plastic that is already roughly the color of the finished piece. I've put together a few robot kits, as as far as I can tell the different coloring has absolutely no impact on the quality of the molding. The cheaper kits have different sprues in one box (so a red sprue full of red bits, a blue sprue full of blue bits, and 3 white sprues full of white bits for example), but I've seen kits with 2 different colors on the same sprue- it looks like two half-sprues of different colors are clamped together with a socket-and-plug joint.

Now obviously a model kit for a particular robot that is probably only going to be painted in a particular color scheme to match the TV show is different kettle of fish from a Warhammer army built around customizability. And yet, I wonder if elements of this might be a more reasonable step than pre-paints. Imagine an undead army with all of the skeletons already molded in bleached bone, with all of the weapons and shields moulded in black and all of the bases molded in desert yellow. Imagine orks with all the boyz molded in green plastic and all of the armor/weapon bitz molded in black. And of course, chapter-specific Space Marine boxes could be molded in their chapter colors.

I think unpainted models are going to obviously look worse than painted models. Even if the plastic is molded in the right colors, it still has a sheen like plastic and you can see little fluctuations in color not by shadows, but by the thickness of the material behind it. But unpainted plastic that is at least in the right color looks better than unpainted grey plastic on a black base. I remember one of the first model kits I ever built was some red Gundam with big, black shoulder cannons. It was already molded in all the right colors so I barely painted anything- just ran a black ink pen over all the joints between armor plates and doused it all with gloss sealer, and it looked pretty good to my 14-year-old eye. The confidence I gained from that kit saw me through several other kits where I DID try painting. And even though most of those paint jobs turned out to be complete disasters, it's now more than a decade later and I'm still at the hobby. And though I'm not steeped in the Gundam fan community, model shops in Japan at least don't seem to be overrun with lazy kids not bothering to paint their models.

If GW must make their models easier in order to draw new people into the hobby, I'd much rather see it with plastic molding than with prepaints.

This seems to be a far better approach then pre-painted. I used to build Gundam model kits. Their are some out their which actually have different parts of the same piece molded in different colors. Maybe GW should look into this, if only for starter sets such as Assault on Black Reach.

Sure thing, there are the freakiest hobbies outhere... as for prepainted the only thing hobby related you can do with it is buying them... if you consider shopping a hobby then your lucky.

The only thing besides of course playing the game with them!

I've always thought GW should do some prepainted stuff. As an ork player I don't want to paint 30-60 grots just to remove them from the table in handfulls.
Same with slugga boys, if I could buy them or grots i definitely would.

I'm not saying they should stop making the regular model boxes of unpainted ork boyz but in addition to them have some PPP.

As far as space marines they could easliy have pre-painted ones that look better than a large portion of the ones i've seen painted in any GW or FLGS.

NAVARRO wrote:- If its prepainted why does it have horrible mouldlines that need to be cleaned and then PPP is ruined and you have to paint it again?

The mouldlines don't 'need' to be cleaned off. Sure, minis look better without them... but I've come across a lot of 40K armies over the years that didn't have the mould lines cleaned off either, so it's not a problem exclusive to prepaints.

- Prepainted plastic details are subpar dont know if its the paint layer or the special plastics that takes paint but those are nasty detailwise.

I don't know where you get the idea that prepaint collectors 'avoid' talking about that. I mention it frequently in discussions of prepaints. It's a side effect of the softer plastic used to ensure that the models are still in one piece when you open the booster.

But while it looks a little sub-par up close, at table level, (ie: when you're standing over the table actually playing the game that the miniatures are designed for) it really doesn't make a huge amount of difference.

- Theres already a more affordable offer for people who dont want to paint and those are painting studios like bluetablepainting... that paints better than quality level PPP and is more affordable.

Surely it's easier to buy a box of minis already painted (meaning you have them immediately) than to have to send them away to someone else to paint them?

- Overall Design and pose of the miniatures suffers a lot ( we seen this at rackham) theres some kind of prepainted plastic machine handling limitations for sure.

That really comes down to the company's own design choices. Star Wars Minis don't suffer any so far as complexity and pose goes compared to GW... Miniatures that require casting in multiple parts are simply bumped up the rarity scale to account for the extra time (and therefore extra expense) required to assemble them.

- Its more expensive!

It can be. And it should be. Buying a bookcase is also more expensive than buying half a dozen planks of wood and some varnish.

Of course, in the collectible prepaint games, the collectible nature of the minis helps out a lot with prices on the more basic stuff, which means that you can often pick up the common minis (and in many cases the less in-demand uncommon or rare minis) for next to nothing.

- Every company who said ppp is better than slice bread is in trouble.

WOTC don't seem to be suffering any worse than GW is at the moment...

The only thing PPP brings to the wargame industry is a downgrade of the sculpt quality, drain resources from companies and leeches customers for premium PPP costs!

That, and results in more painted miniatures on the table, and more people playing who would be put off by having to paint their own minis.

Edit: The "you can repaint ppp argument" amuses me If you guys like to spend money for a painted fig and then spend money on repainting it, its your call...

I think you're missing the point of that argument somewhat. It's not that people like buying prepaints and repainting them specifically. It's that they satisfy both sides...

Buy an unpainted miniature... if you don't like painting, you don't paint it. If you do like painting, you can repaint it if it doesn't suit your standards. End result, one painted, and one unpainted miniature.

Buy a painted miniature... if you don't like painting, you don't paint it. If you do like painting, you can repaint it if it doesn't suit your standards. End result, in both cases, is a painted miniature on the table... which we all agree is a good thing, no?

I'd fully agree with that last point by insaniak, when I had Heroclix I could have used them as they came. However I went looking through comics, websites and found the correct schemes for the heroes and villians I was using and painted them that way.

Aye I could have used them as was, often I did, but for those I painted over the top and got a good table standard on. It was even sweeter playing with them as they looked spot on.

I Still have some Brotherhood now, and went as far as removing Rogue's flying base for her Brotherhood version. As although she didn't have the ability they hadn't made a seperate fig. So you can even do a bit of converting on Heroclix figs if ye want.

The reason for that is Rackham's dishonest practice of showing off studio paintjobs instead of the actual ones you get in the box.

The only one being dishonest is you.

They normally have it in the text accompanying the picture if the mini is studio or PPP. As soon as minis are available to regular buyers, they change the pics in their online-store to the ones showing the ppp-minis.

The boxes have a see-through window, so everyone is able to see what he is shelling out his bucks for.

You don´t expect them to show PPP minis in the books? That would be like asking GW to show unpainted plastics in their books.

er doesn't the gw cat. does also have unpaint sprue in it? or do you mean in the codex and rule book which tell you how to play the game ... including how to paint your minis?

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Malika2 wrote:Hmm, it didn't look too bad with Rackam's AT-43 I think...

The reason for that is Rackham's dishonest practice of showing off studio paintjobs instead of the actual ones you get in the box. They look considerably nastier in the flesh than they do in promos.

Boxes are open window, so you can see them for yourself.

GW and Privateer Press don't tend to fill their promotional materials with images of entire
silver and plastic armies. And I've seen the text that says "studio painted" for the prepainted
plastics.

Probably the part that suffers worst in the Rackham line are the figures with human skin and
anything done up in a metallic paint. The rest of it looks fine on the tabletop.

In Japan they sell marker pen kits to go with the Gundam models. I suppose it's an easy way for children to colour their Gundams. I haven't tried one though.

Daggermaw wrote:

Sure thing, there are the freakiest hobbies outhere... as for prepainted the only thing hobby related you can do with it is buying them... if you consider shopping a hobby then your lucky.

The only thing besides of course playing the game with them!

Depends if your going to game with it or put on a display... If you want just a gaming piece theres tons of tokens or cheaper prepainted things at toysrus. Really Im not making fun, I was building a diorama with pirates and needed some sharks so I went to toysrus and got a tube packed (20 diferent sharks) with nice PPP 28mm compatible sharks for something like 3 euros.
The big price lie about ppp entering wargames is that it wants to ride the fame of super detailed metals or resin or multipart detailed plastics (wich are expensive since quality is much superior) but they are in fact subpar and ridiculous expensive.



gezzz insaniak so many quotes I will try to answer but next time im going to pass since it takes time i dont have

insaniak wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:- If its prepainted why does it have horrible mouldlines that need to be cleaned and then PPP is ruined and you have to paint it again?

The mouldlines don't 'need' to be cleaned off. Sure, minis look better without them... but I've come across a lot of 40K armies over the years that didn't have the mould lines cleaned off either, so it's not a problem exclusive to prepaints..

- I did not say it was exclusive to prepaints its exclusive to unfinished miniature. Problem is you buy a miniature already painted and should be finished/ ready to go... Its sold like a finished product I say its a major tecnical flaw and incomplete product... specially if you pay silly prices. The only thing this proves, to me, is that its a mediocre product that tries to sell the image " great already painted armies on the table that you have to pay extra for" and the truth is its a incomplete product its far from finished and well tt painted.
You dont "need" to clean mouldlines, and you dont need to paint minis, you dont need to do nothing mate, theres lots of ways of having fun on "your" hobby I'm just expressing "my" way of having fun and Im not imposing it to anyone just sharing ok?
Sure there are 40k armies with mouldlines and?
Just because its cr@ppy you can take cr@p with a premium price from a company? By that order of ideas you can buy soda caps and play with proxies since some folks use them... just dont espect to me to buy those sodacaps by the price of a miniature.
And, mouldlines in a player army is player choice... mouldlines on a product you buy, its acompany imposition, big diference.

insaniak wrote:

- Prepainted plastic details are subpar dont know if its the paint layer or the special plastics that takes paint but those are nasty detailwise.

I don't know where you get the idea that prepaint collectors 'avoid' talking about that. I mention it frequently in discussions of prepaints. It's a side effect of the softer plastic used to ensure that the models are still in one piece when you open the booster.

But while it looks a little sub-par up close, at table level, (ie: when you're standing over the table actually playing the game that the miniatures are designed for) it really doesn't make a huge amount of difference. ..

Sorry, maybe i got that idea from the long debates about prepainted in lots of forums, even here for the past... 1, 2 years?
Yes i agree that these miniatures look okish far away... although they are priced to look good upclose.

insaniak wrote:

- Theres already a more affordable offer for people who dont want to paint and those are painting studios like bluetablepainting... that paints better than quality level PPP and is more affordable.

Surely it's easier to buy a box of minis already painted (meaning you have them immediately) than to have to send them away to someone else to paint them? ..

Sure its easier... and more expensive... to us in short term... but providing such a service will it prove to be profitable for a company that invests in it? dont you see a dispersion of focus and resources here? How many quality miniatures would be canned from a company shedule in order to suport the subpar PPP? Long therm what would this mean to us? broke companies stuffed with PPP? I'm making just questions her wich i have no answers ok? because our litle "its easier to buy" can make a hell of a diference for a company future... and for us in the end.

insaniak wrote:

- Overall Design and pose of the miniatures suffers a lot ( we seen this at rackham) theres some kind of prepainted plastic machine handling limitations for sure.

That really comes down to the company's own design choices. Star Wars Minis don't suffer any so far as complexity and pose goes compared to GW... Miniatures that require casting in multiple parts are simply bumped up the rarity scale to account for the extra time (and therefore extra expense) required to assemble them...

Well, IMHO theres no need to go so low on design quality just to provide something half painted... Its unbalanced.

insaniak wrote:

- Its more expensive!

It can be. And it should be. Buying a bookcase is also more expensive than buying half a dozen planks of wood and some varnish.

Of course, in the collectible prepaint games, the collectible nature of the minis helps out a lot with prices on the more basic stuff, which means that you can often pick up the common minis (and in many cases the less in-demand uncommon or rare minis) for next to nothing. ..

Dont know about you but 20 years ago there was already prepainted toys ( multipart, assembled, painted that were considerably cheaper)... browse your toy shop and you will be surprised about how similar products are and how so diferently priced...
The stunt these PPP companies are making is gluing their faulty mediocre goods to the expensive wargaming market.
I have no problems with people wanting to buy and using PPP, I do have a problem with companies selling cat for a rabbit on my farm.

insaniak wrote:

- Every company who said ppp is better than slice bread is in trouble.

WOTC don't seem to be suffering any worse than GW is at the moment... ..

Just look at the companies majority please

insaniak wrote:

The only thing PPP brings to the wargame industry is a downgrade of the sculpt quality, drain resources from companies and leeches customers for premium PPP costs!

That, and results in more painted miniatures on the table, and more people playing who would be put off by having to paint their own minis...

Really? good, its a awesome trade off isnt it? Dumb down everything...buy sodacaps for the price o lead miniatures just to have more people is the way to go... I respec that you aprove that, personally I just dont.

insaniak wrote:

Edit: The "you can repaint ppp argument" amuses me If you guys like to spend money for a painted fig and then spend money on repainting it, its your call...

I think you're missing the point of that argument somewhat. It's not that people like buying prepaints and repainting them specifically. It's that they satisfy both sides...

Buy an unpainted miniature... if you don't like painting, you don't paint it. If you do like painting, you can repaint it if it doesn't suit your standards. End result, one painted, and one unpainted miniature.

Buy a painted miniature... if you don't like painting, you don't paint it. If you do like painting, you can repaint it if it doesn't suit your standards. End result, in both cases, is a painted miniature on the table... which we all agree is a good thing, no?

Yes. but we were talking diferent things... The plastics that hold PPP doesnt satisfy both sides ( heck i dont know other sides I'm jsut refering to my take on this hehe)... but then again you can paint whatever you like.
To sum up a bit, I respect others choices and hobbies etc, no problem in PPP... AS LONG as it doesnt interfere with the current lines or companies...like happened to rackham ( from best minis to worst minis company in a year)...

PS- insaniak mind Im portuguese so english not y first language if i sounded rude( some people say i sound like that) was not my intention... I'm completely calm just trying to answer all the zillion quotes you did.


As for the Honesty or lack of it by rackham... well everyday most companies produces lies in form of publicity for their products... does it make it honest? nope... do I like it? nope... but i have to live with it.

I stand corrected.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:You don´t expect them to show PPP minis in the books? That would be like asking GW to show unpainted plastics in their books.

When being prepainted is one of the signature features of the game, then yes, I expect them to show prepainted miniatures in the books. In the same way, GW considers painting to be an important feature in the game, so it shows off painted miniatures in the books.

Rymafyr wrote:

On a side note: Was this just some way to get some stuff started Kid_Kyoto?

Nah I'm just pimping the Warstore hoping for another free backpack.

But I think it's something worth talking about, my last dalliance into Star Wars prepaints really got me excited about the idea of opening a box and playing a game. Rather than opening a box, opening a rulebook the size of a college textbook, assembling, painting and converting for a month or two, then coming back and playing a game.

I think some of the ideas here like color coding the snap-tight minis are interesting and could work.

And hey, those aren't bad paintjobs they're selling.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:I'd fully agree with that last point by insaniak, when I had Heroclix I could have used them as they came. However I went looking through comics, websites and found the correct schemes for the heroes and villians I was using and painted them that way.

Aye I could have used them as was, often I did, but for those I painted over the top and got a good table standard on. It was even sweeter playing with them as they looked spot on.

I Still have some Brotherhood now, and went as far as removing Rogue's flying base for her Brotherhood version. As although she didn't have the ability they hadn't made a seperate fig. So you can even do a bit of converting on Heroclix figs if ye want.

I remember hacking up 4-5 figures and dragging out my paints to make an accurate female Hawk for my Titans team since DC brought Hawk and Dove back as a pair of estranged teenage sisters. Probably my most intensive Clix custom.

NAVARRO wrote:gezzz insaniak so many quotes I will try to answer but next time im going to pass since it takes time i dont have

You listed a bunch of points that proponents of prepaints supposedly don't reply to... This being Dakka, you shouldn't be too surprised that someone replied to them as a result

Problem is you buy a miniature already painted and should be finished/ ready to go...

It is.

Sure, they would be better with the mould lines finished off... But they're not sold as GD-quality display pieces. They are gaming miniatures. Most people barely even notice mould lines on them, any more than they would object to them on action figures.

I'm not saying that you should like it... I was just addressing your point about it not being 'prepainted' if it has mouldlines, which frankly didn't make a lot of sense

Sure its easier... and more expensive... to us in short term... but providing such a service will it prove to be profitable for a company that invests in it?

It has been for WotC. It was for Wizkids. It all comes down to the company, and whether or not they have the infrastructure to support it, and the ability to put out product that people want to buy.

Well, IMHO theres no need to go so low on design quality just to provide something half painted... Its unbalanced.

I can't help thinking that you're a little biased based on your own experiences with Rackham. Not all prepaints are sub-par sculpts. Some of my favorite minis in my collection are from the Star Wars range, and the detail on those particular minis is as good as any of GW's plastics.

Sure, there are dogs in the range, and there are some entire ranges of prepaints that aren't good... But the same is true of paintable minis. GW puts out some absolutely horrendous miniatures, as did Rackham. And there are entire ranges of miniatures that I would simply never even consider buying. Being prepainted doesn't automatically mean it's rubbish. Being rubbish does.

The stunt these PPP companies are making is gluing their faulty mediocre goods to the expensive wargaming market.

Action figures, by and large, have a much wider audience. In the same way that historical model kit companies can put out vehicle kits more detailed and cheaper than GW's tanks, companies producing action figures can afford to charge less for their product than someone selling wargaming miniatures.

But really, the difference isn't that big. I can buy a Star Wars action figure for about the same price as a booster of Star Wars miniatures. For a comparable amount of plastic, and a similar standard of painting. Except that in the case of the miniatures, that's 7 different paintjobs for the price of one... which seems like a better deal to me.

Just look at the companies majority please

You said every prepaint company has done badly. Not just the majority.

But I'll play along...

Mongoose - failed at prepaints through some poor business decisions that cost them a lot of money, followed by a product that when it was finally released turned out to be complete rubbish.

Rackham - Hit a distinct low when they released prepaints, having just alienated a large part of their customer base (which in the grand scheme of things wasn't that big to begin with) by scrapping their entire range and completely changing direction... but without the customer base or the market saturation to sustain it. Whether or not that will eventually come good is still in doubt...

Wizkids - were huge. Had several ranges that were basically like printing money, even with them annoying a large chunk of their customer base by completely revising one of their games and invalidating people's collections. Games went on for too long without anything substantially new, which saw them start to lose popularity, and people eventually lose interest in collectible games when they have to keep buying to remain in competitive play as older sets are removed from official play... but we have no way of knowing whether or not they were doing badly at the end. The reason given by Topps for closing them down was a refocusing of Topps' business direction, which may or may not have anything whatsoever to do with Wizkids' sales.

WotC - Has several popular ranges of collectible prepaints, all of which are doing what they're supposed to do. No signs of any of those going away any time soon.


Sorry, but that hardly looks like the 'all prepaint companys fail' that you claimed... The problems that Rackham and Mongoose had didn't come because they were selling prepaints specifically. They came because they made crappy business decisions and put out product that people didn't want.

Really? good, its a awesome trade off isnt it? Dumb down everything...buy sodacaps for the price o lead miniatures just to have more people is the way to go... I respec that you aprove that, personally I just dont.

Hyperbole much?

I don't approve of using sodacaps for miniatures. I most certainly do approve of more people having painted miniatures.

Yes. but we were talking diferent things... The plastics that hold PPP doesnt satisfy both sides

Again, I think you're generalising through lack of actual familiarity with different ranges. There are a whole stack of miniatures in several of the prepainted ranges I collect that I would more than happily repaint if I had the time. Every range has the good and the bad. That's not exclusive to prepaints either.

I could just as well claim that unpainted miniatures don't satisfy those who want to paint either, just because the minis put out by a particular company are rubbish.

To sum up a bit, I respect others choices and hobbies etc, no problem in PPP... AS LONG as it doesnt interfere with the current lines or companies...like happened to rackham ( from best minis to worst minis company in a year)...

Sure, I can understand that. But your problem there isn't with prepaints. It's with Rackham's business decisions.

They chose to go with prepaints instead of the range they already had. Only they know their reasons for doing that, rather than running with both.

PS- insaniak mind Im portuguese so english not y first language if i sounded rude( some people say i sound like that) was not my intention... I'm completely calm just trying to answer all the zillion quotes you did.

No problem

Where are pre-painted miniatures painted?

for that matter, where are GW miniatures cast?

insaniak wrote:
WotC - Has several popular ranges of collectible prepaints, all of which are doing what they're supposed to do. No signs of any of those going away any time soon.

To be fair, the D&D Miniatures game is being disbanded. The latest set, from this November, will be its last. Future WOTC releases (still PPP, no longer CMG) will be aimed more in the direction of the D&D RPGer crowd, and it will be interesting to see how that range fares, because that demographic is also being catered to by non-prepainted miniatures companies like Reaper (you can get most of the critters in the D&D Monster Manual in the form of Reaper minis with serial numbers filed off).

In any case, of course, DDM was hardly a failure. Five years of releases, seventeen sets, untold thousands of players, and some rather nice miniatures (and some uglies), make for the sort of product line that "lesser" companies would die for.

Agamemnon2 wrote:To be fair, the D&D Miniatures game is being disbanded. The latest set, from this November, will be its last. Future WOTC releases (still PPP, no longer CMG) will be aimed more in the direction of the D&D RPGer crowd,

Yeah, the miniatures range isn't going anywhere... it's simply changing focus slightly. Although not that much, since the reason for the change is that the miniatures were already selling more for RPGers than for wargamers anyway. So all they're really doing is dropping the extra rules development and focusing on what more of their customers actually wanted in the first place.

...and it will be interesting to see how that range fares, because that demographic is also being catered to by non-prepainted miniatures companies like Reaper (you can get most of the critters in the D&D Monster Manual in the form of Reaper minis with serial numbers filed off).

I'm similarly interested in seeing how Reaper's prepainted range develops, if it actually manages to go past the initial release. They're doing exactly what (IMO) Rackham should have done, and what I think GW will have to do eventually... keeping the core range, and releasing picked ranges in prepaints for those who want them.

Belphegor wrote:Where are pre-painted miniatures painted?

for that matter, where are GW miniatures cast?

In the furnace where gamers lives burn away to nothing.

Belphegor wrote:Where are pre-painted miniatures painted?

Mostly in China or Hong Kong, at least in the case of WotC, Wizkids and Mongoose. No idea where Rackham are doing theirs. I believe Privateer's Monsterpocalypse minis are painted in the US, but I could be wrong.

for that matter, where are GW miniatures cast?

USA and UK. Although there have been occasional rumours over the last few years that at least some of Forgeworld's resin stuff is being cast in China.

I would be surprised to find that Forge World were resin casting in China. It is pretty much a cottage industry and productions runs are low. Quality control is important in resin casting and the Chinese have a problem with that.

So for Forge World KK. So do Forge World.

BYE

I for one still hold that PPP would be great for GW. I don't think it would push other productions out of the way at all, as most likely GW would just farm out the designs to other companies and have them make the minis.

It would be similiar to when hero quest was available on store shelves, that was a GW liscenced product but made by Milton Bradley (i believe), and that didn't affect GW at all.

The PPP would also allow GW to go more mainstream which is something i've always thought they should do.

I could easliy see GW making a ruleset for a simple game similiar to heroscape, but using 40k armies, that was available in Wal-marts. It would be the gateway drug to get kids into GW stores.

People always go to extremes....

Imagine GW doing both and you are on the right path.

Besides, Rackham and PP do get their plastics from China.

The problem with this talk of alternate lines and gateway games to 40K is that GW does not have a good history of accomplishing that. The last thing we need is for more of White Dwarf to be taken up with ads for some game none of us play that's supposed to get more people into 40K, but doesn't, because the people who buy that game buy it for different reasons than people who buy 40K do. So then GW is stuck having to support two fairly separate audiences that they don't really have the attention span to please adequately but they don't want to suffer the outcry if they drop either line to focus on giving a satisfactory product to the other.

Who´s talking of two different lines, you just produce standard troops prepainted and non-prepainted and that´s how most will be happy.

Ask Mongoose how that "Prepainted to a standard 90% better then average gamers" is doing for them. (It killed them as a serious gaming company.)

Rackim almost went under over the AT43 prepaints, and people can't give them away. It has its fans, as I'm sure, does Warzone. And how were these games as a release, by the way?( Both games, combined, made as much news as an underwater fart.)

Eggs in one basket have quality control. Putting wasted resources to prepaints leads to accepting substandard product. ( Collectables, Hero clix, Prepainted Star Wars, toys.)
Then people are then just as inclined to buy it just to say ,"Oh, I got the special edition prepainted space marine. He's green, instead of blue!"

Prepainted fugures are a cheese product. Every time this subject comes up it goes south.

Grot 6 wrote:Ask Mongoose how that "Prepainted to a standard 90% better then average gamers" is doing for them. (It killed them as a serious gaming company.)

But again, that wasn't because they were prepaints... it was because they were rubbish.

Eggs in one basket have quality control.

Mongoose had all their eggs in one basket, and still had no quality control. That was their entire problem.

GW markets this as a hobby... not a game. Hence why they don't fix the rules.

Rackham's are painted in China, as ell as cast there. hence the interminable wait for Wave 08 in the US.

And Mongoose flounders from day to day no matter WHAT it's selling. That company is run by monkeys.

insaniak wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:Ask Mongoose how that "Prepainted to a standard 90% better then average gamers" is doing for them. (It killed them as a serious gaming company.)

But again, that wasn't because they were prepaints... it was because they were rubbish.

Eggs in one basket have quality control.

Mongoose had all their eggs in one basket, and still had no quality control. That was their entire problem.

Point taken.

Thanks for the pool of urine under my chair now. Great example for my children, good job. That title made my mullet curl up in pheer!

Mattlov wrote:I don't think it would be a bad thng for for things like Guardsmen and very generic troops that won't hve a large variance.

Of course, I can't come up with anything that would work on other than Guardsmen...

You make the mistake that Guardsmen are simply 'horde' troops. They're not, if used correctly.

I'd say Tyranids, definately. Failing that, Necrons, simply because they are actually the same model, over and over.

~sA

smiling Assassin wrote:

Mattlov wrote:I don't think it would be a bad thng for for things like Guardsmen and very generic troops that won't hve a large variance.

Of course, I can't come up with anything that would work on other than Guardsmen...

You make the mistake that Guardsmen are simply 'horde' troops. They're not, if used correctly.

I'd say Tyranids, definately. Failing that, Necrons, simply because they are actually the same model, over and over.

~sA

Disagre... Nids are the same model over and over again as much as Guardsmen are.

smiling Assassin wrote:

Mattlov wrote:I don't think it would be a bad thng for for things like Guardsmen and very generic troops that won't hve a large variance.

Of course, I can't come up with anything that would work on other than Guardsmen...

You make the mistake that Guardsmen are simply 'horde' troops. They're not, if used correctly.

I'd say Tyranids, definately. Failing that, Necrons, simply because they are actually the same model, over and over.

~sA

But Tyranids come in such a variety of colors it is less feasible. Do they stick with one of the main hive fleet colors? Create a new one for prepaints?

Necrons would work pretty well for prepainted, but they are already super easy to get to a tabletop standard I'm not sure they are worth it.

Nids could be moulded in various colour plastic and detailed up with two more colours quickly enough.

People act like pre-painted figures are a new thing. They've been around for over a century. When toy soldiers became popular in Victorian times, all figures were pre-painted.

A note on them only looking good at a distance
EXAMPLE SCENARIO
Gamer 1: Hey man, ready for our game?
Gamer 2: Sure thing, let's get set up!

They prepare the table, unpack their minis and begin the game

Gamer 2: Whoah! Nicely painted army!
Gamer 1: I didn't paint it! A complete stranger did it for me!
Gamer 2: Awesome! anyway I'm gonna check line of sight to one of your dudes, seing as we're playing 5th I'll just bend down and have a look.

Gamer 2 looks closely at Gamer 1's models, he realises his mistake

Gamer 2: AAARGH! MY EYES!

moral: PPP minis are bad

P4NC4K3 wrote: seing as we're playing 5th I'll just bend down and have a look.

What does playing 5th have to do with it?

Gamer 2: AAARGH! MY EYES!

moral: PPP minis are bad

I've played against countless player-painted armies that would have had the same effect.

Ha ha.

Even so, the worst pre-painted figures are better than bare or primed unpainted figures.

FWIW.

insaniak wrote:What does playing 5th have to do with it?

TLOS and the "model's eye view" I imagine.

The Dreadnote wrote:

insaniak wrote:What does playing 5th have to do with it?

TLOS and the "model's eye view" I imagine.

And so the question again: What does playing 5th have to do with it?

Every edition of 40K so far has used the model's eye view as the core of the LOS rules.

No they have not. Only in 5th was it expressly stated that you used a models eye view. It was always base to base before, as now ratlings can shoot out of many buildings

And I will adamantly oppose any thought of Pre-painted minis.

If you don't want to paint the models, please find another hobby, we don't need Heroclix players here.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:No they have not. Only in 5th was it expressly stated that you used a models eye view.

4th edition Rulebook, page 20:
"In some cases it might be difficult to tell if line of sight is blocked or not, so players might have to stoop over the table for a model's eye view"...


3rd edition Rulebook, page 45:
"Sometimes it may be hard to tell if a line of sight is blocked or not, so players must stoop over the table for a 'model's eye view'. ...


2nd edition Rulebook, page 26:
"However, in some cases it is difficult to tell if a line of sight is blocked or not, and players must stoop over the table for a 'model's eye view'. ...


I don't have the Rogue Trader book, but I'm told it says something similar.

It was always base to base before, as now ratlings can shoot out of many buildings

LOS has never been base to base.

If you don't want to paint the models, please find another hobby, we don't need Heroclix players here.

The 'hobby' for those who want prepainted miniatures, is 'wargaming'... If you have another hobby that involves painting your toy soldiers before you then use them in wargames, then that's great for you. But it's simply not what everyone wants from their wargaming hobby.

The level of scorn often shown by those who think that people who like prepaints are somehow debasing their hobby frankly amazes me. I wouldn't even think of looking down on someone because they want their miniatures already painted... any more than I would look down on someone playing monopoly with the pieces straight out of the box.

How you enjoy your hobby is your business. Let other people enjoy it their own way.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Who´s talking of two different lines, you just produce standard troops prepainted and non-prepainted and that´s how most will be happy.

Duncan

Products are sold, ordered and inventory by their sku. Each sku is a separate product with a fixed price. Every Space Marine tactical squad will have the same sku, which will be different from the combat squad, battle force etc. When a product is rung up, the entered sku will inform the register what the price should be, and then the customer is charged. If prepainted squads are offered in addition to unpainted marines, a new an unique sku will be needed for each separate product.

What does this mean for the retailer if marines are now available in PPP for the 4 main chapters (red, blue, green and gray)?

Suddenly, they have to stock 5 products for every marine sku, 5 kinds of tac squads, assault squads, bike squads, termie squads...

Let's say that no one likes gray marines, then that product sits on the shelf, when that space could be filled by other, hotter selling products. Which loses the retailer money.

Far better to sell a generic product that the user can customize. Unless you're suggesting that GW goes to the collectible route like PP did. And no thank you, please.

People always assume the worst. Chances of GW going the pre-painted route are slim to nil.

Valhallan42nd wrote:What does this mean for the retailer if marines are now available in PPP for the 4 main chapters (red, blue, green and gray)?

Suddenly, they have to stock 5 products for every marine sku, 5 kinds of tac squads, assault squads, bike squads, termie squads...

No they don't, any more than they have to stock every sku now.

Retailers make a choice as to how much of the range they want on the shelf. GW (at least here in Oz) even offers range packages designed to fit into different types and sizes of shops, with a range of product designed to fit into the available space while maximising sales.

There's also ways around it... adding new product doesn't necessarily mean increasing the range. Lines are periodically dropped off to make shelf space for newer boxes. And simply revising the box contents can remove the need for multiple boxes.

Let's say that no one likes gray marines, then that product sits on the shelf, when that space could be filled by other, hotter selling products. Which loses the retailer money.

Which is no different to what happens now... and is why GW will periodically review the range the retailer has sitting on the shelf, or offer to accept back non-selling items at given times... the actual procedure changes from time to time, but this is something that GW have been doing for at least 15 years now.

What's wrong with pre-paints sure they aren't as good but they are painted better than my figs and you can play with them straight out of the box

@Valhallan42nd

Actually I am working in the industry and do know how things are calculated.

All I am saying for now is: People will be surprised how companies are going to change their product lines in the coming two years.

Duncan

What part of the industry are you in? Are you a retailer, distrubutor, etc?

PPP is a viable sales tool if handled designed into the game the ground up, like in monsterpocalypse.

With such an extensive range, GW's lines are not ideal for PPP, unless it's for a secondary game like PP now has.

I don't see it happening in a way that will be a benefit for any party (GW, the retailer, or the player) in the long run.

If you want painted mini's bluetable and paintedfigs are there to help you get to that point. You'll be able to give them custom schemes, etc. They're just post painted.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:

If you don't want to paint the models, please find another hobby, we don't need Heroclix players here.

Tad self-righteous don't you think? Who the heck are you to tell people what they want in a hobby? Jeez, some people ......

I don't know why people make such a fuss over this topic. Some people will use PP's and some people will prefer to paint their own. BFD. It isn't as if anyone is going to refuse to play someone because they use PP mini's. It isn't a major problem that some people have to be such self-righteous pricks over it.

If GW goes PP only then yes there is a problem for those of us who enjoy painting - we will stop playing like Rackham found out with Confrontation. One would assume that GW isn't going to make that mistake.

Personally, I welcome PP for basic troops. I hate painting 50 stupid marines or 120 orcs. What a waste of time and life. Don't want HQ or the more individual models PP though - thats the fun part. Don't see why I should have to suffer doing grunt work for a fun hobby though.

My arguement is against prepaints, but has also been for pro-painters. If you don't want to paint 150 hormogaunts, you don't have to. Play them unprimed if you're a gamer, play them propainted if your time is better spent elsewhere.

For instance, if I bought my new daemon army through painted figs, it would only cost me $155 over retail, assuming I paid for all of them upfront. That's standard quality, mind you, but still... It might be worth it for those interested in PPP to investigate post, rather than pre paint.

Prepaints are fine.

Certainly, prepaints will look better than partly-built, unpainted models.

I'll prepaint anyones models for 10 dollars an hour. Seriously. I need the money and I'm an ok painter.


PM for inquiries!

ShumaGorath wrote:I'll prepaint anyones models for 10 dollars an hour. Seriously. I need the money and I'm an ok painter.


PM for inquiries!

How many models per hour?



If we get PP-models, there will be:

SM = smurf-blue
IG = cadia green-brown
orcs = green with random 2nd color
Necron = boltgun metal
Tau = Brown
CSM= black
Nids = fleshy

:S :S :S

could be cheap "snap-fit" models too....

How many models per hour?

*shrugs* A lot? I assembly line paint, which means that I apply the same detail to the same 10 models in succession, then move on to the next detail required (I assume most people paint this way). I can be snappy.

could be cheap "snap-fit" models too...

Leggo 40k!

ShumaGorath wrote:Leggo 40k!

Wargaming pasta sauce?

insaniak wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Leggo 40k!

Wargaming pasta sauce?

Nope. Wargaming waffles ('Leggo my Eggo).

ShumaGorath wrote:

How many models per hour?

*shrugs* A lot? I assembly line paint, which means that I apply the same detail to the same 10 models in succession, then move on to the next detail required (I assume most people paint this way). I can be snappy.

could be cheap "snap-fit" models too...

Leggo 40k!

I just had to add that while I'm very interested in knowing what Shuma's price per model painting service is, his intensely annoying signature has forced me to block content from flickr.

Stonefox can hold the torch for awesome faces for me. I aped his signature.

while I'm very interested in knowing what Shuma's price per model painting service is

I've painted four of my own armies and a bloodbowl team, and I have no idea what the price per model would be (hence the hourly wage, though I do paint fairly quickly). I also really only have before the 12th to finish things and send them out (I go back to school then).

It's something I've wanted to do for a while though. At the very least I'll probably start doing it more heavily in the coming summer. I'll post up some pictures and more concrete pricing in a blog thingy on the blog section tomorrow.

I would probably quit the hobby. Then what would I do with my free time GW? I'm a gamer i'm not allowd to hava a social life. lol

Valhallan42nd wrote:If you want painted mini's bluetable and paintedfigs are there to help you get to that point. You'll be able to give them custom schemes, etc. They're just post painted.

Or for half to 1/3 the price, I could play with an unpainted army. PPP figures are not significantly differently priced, and painting services are outrageously priced(IMO). But, I do actually paint my own stuff, including some PPP stuff.

I have my 6mm figures painted for me by a service because my poor old eyes simply can't cope with their smallness any more.

It is expensive but it let me get a big army, nicely painted, really quickly. They were done by Reinforcements By Post who are based in Bangladesh.

I still paint my onw 15mm and 28mm though.

Kilkrazy wrote:I have my 6mm figures painted for me by a service because my poor old eyes simply can't cope with their smallness any more.

It is expensive but it let me get a big army, nicely painted, really quickly. They were done by Reinforcements By Post who are based in Bangladesh.

I still paint my onw 15mm and 28mm though.

Yeah, I can understand why people do it(especially those with poor eyesight[I'm nearly legally blind]), I'd just rather spend that money on more figures.

I've got about 100 bases of Russian 6mm which is enough to play the battle of Borodino using corps scale rules.

If I saved the money on painting, I would have a lot more figures I wouldn't be able to use because they would be bare metal.

For a lot of people, the problem isn't money to buy figures it is time to paint them.

@KK: There are lots of people with more money than time, and they shouldn't be penalized or looked down upon for wanting to play instead of paint.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@KK: There are lots of people with more money than time, and they shouldn't be penalized or looked down upon for wanting to play instead of paint.

Exactly so.

I dont have any issues with what people choose to do, its their perrogative... and I totally respect it. For me the prepainted debate is more about the path of a determined company... and whats the potential for them to produce more and more inferior quality PPP instead of the current products that I personally prefer.
Hapened to rackham and I hope it doesnt happen to other companies were I like to buy my minis. But I have said that already.

Also if a guy aproaches me with his painted army and convertions etc theres a bridge for hobby talk, and debate things why he did that way, share tips and tricks, ideas etc... If a guy aproaches me with a PPP army theres not much "hobby" to talk about... It doesnt mean I look up or something or that I dont respect his preferences, it means thats a subject out of the table, just that.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@KK: There are lots of people with more money than time, and they shouldn't be penalized or looked down upon for wanting to play instead of paint.

Deferred gratification is a big component of this hobby. Trying to cut corners typically lessens the enjoyment of the hobby for all involved (i.e playing without an assembled/painted army on nice terrain)

For me, playing someone without a painted army is like playing someone who doesn't know the rules at all.

I obviously understand the person who only has time to game. I might rib them a bit, but since I'm playing with unpainted/unfinished pieces currently, I'm likely to include myself in those jabs. My friend can't paint, his hands shake, and he really can't hold a brush steady enough to do detail work.

I just look at the general quality of PPP, and where PPP comes from (China), and I'd rather spend money on an American/UK manufacturer that I can customize.

I'd also like to remind Dakkaties that GW's idea of what a squad should look like, and our idea of what a squad should look like are two different things. Unless you want all your tac squads with flamer/ML/sgt's with CCW and BP.

The quality of any PPP far surpasses an unpainted model.

And the quality of the work from China is exceptionally good. Check out McFarlane's toys some time.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

And the quality of the work from China is exceptionally good

I disagree. 80% of goods (toys ,plastics) with quality or security issues come from there.

China might be able to produce quality,but this has to be ordered from foreign companys and maximizing profit with cheaper products isn't aimed at quality at low price.

I think a "prepaint service" where you can order minis and used paint-schemes could do well,if their quality is good.

WRT your 80% figure, given that well over 90% of all toys come from China, if only 80% of the problems are from China, they're clearly doing better than the rest of the world.

Back when I "collected" toys, about a decade ago, I bought loads of McFarlane toys. All were Chinese, and they set the bar for quality mass production. Their toys had a level of detail that had never been made available before. Since that time, the technology has only gotten better, as more of the work has been taken over by the Chinese designers themselves.

When you talk about quality at a low price, in general, that is pretty much the fact. The toys we have today simply wouldn't be possible at their current price points without Chinese labor and production.

And given that money is a resource, Kraftwerke is going to stay long gone.

I used to look at a good deal of the McFarlane toys, and I didn't like the paint job, to be honest. They're not bad, but they're not great. I'd rather paint my mini's TBH.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

And given that money is a resource, Kraftwerke is going to stay long gone.

explain kraftwerke. ?


You get what you order and PrePainted sounds like cheap "ready to play" minis for under 12 year olds (maybe new customers?).

Pre-painted stuff needs to be designed from the ground up for easy assembly and painting.

1hadhq wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

And given that money is a resource, Kraftwerke is going to stay long gone.

explain kraftwerke. ?


You get what you order and PrePainted sounds like cheap "ready to play" minis for under 12 year olds (maybe new customers?).

I think he's giving a try at German and is trying to guess that "kraftwerke" is the German word for craftsmanship. If so, the possible word he was looking for could be "Kunstfertigkeit" but don't hold me on it.

BrookM wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

And given that money is a resource, Kraftwerke is going to stay long gone.

explain kraftwerke. ?


You get what you order and PrePainted sounds like cheap "ready to play" minis for under 12 year olds (maybe new customers?).

I think he's giving a try at German and is trying to guess that "kraftwerke" is the German word for craftsmanship. If so, the possible word he was looking for could be "Kunstfertigkeit" but don't hold me on it.

It's just a pity that Kraftwerk is both a German band from Düsseldorf and means power station, making his quote even more confusing.

Tazok wrote: For me, playing someone without a painted army is like playing someone who doesn't know the rules at all.

Elitist much?

I would only ever buy painted guardsmen. I cant see myself running them unless I have 150+ guardsmen.

On the other hand ive painted things for others and its fine by me. For some people the hobby isn't about painting models and making that one "omg how'd you do that" fig. Its about interacting with fellow gamers and to some degrees (fantasy comes to mind) The tactical aspect of the game.

So if it suites them to get others to paint their minis then go them. They will never have an army to truly call thier own except for build, But maybe they don't want to show up with an all Grey army.

Platuan4th wrote:

Tazok wrote: For me, playing someone without a painted army is like playing someone who doesn't know the rules at all.

Elitist much?

Well if caring about verisimilitude makes me an elitist then yes I am. Otherwise, I'm all about having an engaging battle with an adversary where I can really get into the 40k universe (with painted minis instead of gray plastic toys). Hopefully that makes sense.

In my experience the majority of people that don't take the time to paint their armies aren't the best players to play against. Yes there are exceptions to this, but I consider my hobby time valuable and don't want to waste it in a situation where I won't have a good time.

I have some sympathy.

Coming from an old school background, when I was in a club we just never played with unpainted figures. It wasn't an elitist thing, it wasn't a rule, we just kinda didn't do it. It was a social convention.

When we started a new period or scale, we painted enough figures to play a starter size game before we played a game.

The "hobby" means different things to different people, obviously. Just look through this thread and we should all be able to agree on that.

My take is like many others: I'd rather play a game against someone with PPP, than silver/gray/primed/partly assembled metal or plastic.

Sure, a lot of the PPP out there isn't "studio quality". Whenever I look at about any CaoR PPP fig from Rackham up-close, I have a very strong urge to vomit. But, they all look fairly decent when viewing them at arm's length, and for a lot of gamers, buying PPP is about as close to having a painted army as they'll ever get.

Companies like GW have a simple primary goal - to make money. I would bet a lot of that stuff that if GW saw money bags in their eyes by switching to PPP - I think they'd do it in a heartbeat. All the talk of "The GW Hobby" and such is nonsensical. If they had a good notion that their overall bottom-line would increase by making such a change, they'd do it, and they'd continue to market it as a "GW Hobby" regardless.

Being worried about 'non hobbyists' invading the community if PPP were offered - I think that fear is quite overblown. Many of those same people already enjoy the game - with unpainted plastic and metal.

Personally, I understand why folks would want PPP figs. Someone mentioned WHFB and horde armies - as a Skaven player, I admit I'd buy a ton of PPP clanrats if they were available.

I think one day it would be cool if we had both PPP and unpainted to choose from, so that all of us could have a choice. I really don't see how it could be too terrible if GW offered some limited number of PPP figs (basic grunts, maybe even just 1 from each army). It'd be even cooler if they offered this, while at the same time still offering the unpainted fare we're used to, for the purists to work with if they feel painting-over PPPs is not viable.

I would not like to see PPP totally replace our currently available product-lines, rather, I'd love to see them as options. It'd be cool if GW could cater to more people - not just to one select group of people. It just seems like there should be a way to satisfy a wider range of customers.

Just my 2 coppers, tho.

I think the fear mostly stems from the fact that once a company goes the PPP route, they won't also offer the 'traditional' unpainted stuff anymore.

Too many SKU's, a division of resources, etc.

For people who also see wargaming as a hobby including building, converting and painting, this is a scary 'fact'.

Whether or not it would actually happen like that, who knows?

The Rackham example is particularly sobering though...

Tazok wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Tazok wrote:

In my experience the majority of people that don't take the time to paint their armies aren't the best players to play against. Yes there are exceptions to this, but I consider my hobby time valuable and don't want to waste it in a situation where I won't have a good time.

Well, what a load of BS

Reply by: two_heads_talking - click to view full reply 

5376

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/29 19:53:14

Post by: two_heads_talking

redstripe wrote:
I just had to add that while I'm very interested in knowing what Shuma's price per model painting service is, his intensely annoying signature has forced me to block content from flickr.

How does one go about blocking content from flickr.?. I hate it too..

Reply by: Platuan4th - click to view full reply 

320

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/29 20:14:01

Post by: Platuan4th

Tazok wrote: I consider my hobby time valuable and don't want to waste it in a situation where I won't have a good time.

This is what I mean by elitist. If you can't have a good time without playing against a painted army, then something in this equation is wrong(and it's not your opponent's army). Or it may just be me, since I like playing a game with the player and not the army.

Reply by: fullheadofhair - click to view full reply 

1036

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/29 20:37:37

Post by: fullheadofhair

Platuan4th wrote:

Tazok wrote: I consider my hobby time valuable and don't want to waste it in a situation where I won't have a good time.

This is what I mean by elitist. If you can't have a good time without playing against a painted army, then something in this equation is wrong(and it's not your opponent's army). Or it may just be me, since I like playing a game with the player and not the army.

don't think it is you. playing against a painted army is great - playing against a tactically savvy player is the best regardless of pain, primer or color.

Reply by: JohnHwangDD - click to view full reply 

5421

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/29 21:22:08

Post by: JohnHwangDD

Am I missing something, or is there a law that you can't repaint prepaints?

Reply by: Platuan4th - click to view full reply 

320

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/29 21:24:39

Post by: Platuan4th

JohnHwangDD wrote:Am I missing something, or is there a law that you can't repaint prepaints?

Apparently. Then again, gluing coins to the bottom of a base is against the law and I've seen several people to that, too.

Reply by: NAVARRO - click to view full reply 

5256

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/29 21:28:33

Post by: NAVARRO

Platuan4th wrote:

Tazok wrote: I consider my hobby time valuable and don't want to waste it in a situation where I won't have a good time.

This is what I mean by elitist. If you can't have a good time without playing against a painted army, then something in this equation is wrong(and it's not your opponent's army). Or it may just be me, since I like playing a game with the player and not the army.

I dont know but I think its you, whats wrong if he chooses to carefully select who and what he plays with?
Armies are part of the game and so are players... armies arent nothing without players and players cant play without armies ( well they can but its anoter game) I dont see this kind of comments going anywere is like just labeling peoples preferences...

For example imagine I'm a fluff nut and just want to play armies that fit my fluff... whats wrong with that if your just having fun?
If I cant have fun playing against proxies , unpainted stuff etc... what wrong about avoiding to do so?

Reply by: NAVARRO - click to view full reply 

5256

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/29 21:30:45

Post by: NAVARRO

JohnHwangDD wrote:Am I missing something, or is there a law that you can't repaint prepaints?

Yeah theres a law its called common sense.

Reply by: fullheadofhair - click to view full reply 

1036

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/29 22:21:39

Post by: fullheadofhair

NAVARRO wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Am I missing something, or is there a law that you can't repaint prepaints?

Yeah theres a law its called common sense.

agreed. anyone tried over painting those abomination of pre-painted wolfen? Not pretty.

Reply by: malfred - click to view full reply 

131

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/29 22:53:52

Post by: malfred

fullheadofhair wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Am I missing something, or is there a law that you can't repaint prepaints?

Yeah theres a law its called common sense.

agreed. anyone tried over painting those abomination of pre-painted wolfen? Not pretty.

It worked well for some gorillas I repainted. The sadness of the pre-painted wolfen is
that they simply did not look as good as the original metals.

Reply by: ridon - click to view full reply 

10673

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/30 02:52:01

Post by: ridon

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo the worst idea ever prepantied soldiery i would explode

Reply by: Valhallan42nd - click to view full reply 

6292

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/30 14:18:18

Post by: Valhallan42nd

Platuan4th wrote:

Tazok wrote: I consider my hobby time valuable and don't want to waste it in a situation where I won't have a good time.

This is what I mean by elitist. If you can't have a good time without playing against a painted army, then something in this equation is wrong(and it's not your opponent's army). Or it may just be me, since I like playing a game with the player and not the army.

What would you rather see in a battle report?

This:


Or this:


My friends back north used to run linked campaigns and do full battle reports. We were more telling a story than playing a game. The paint jobs made the photos more immersive and transportative. It's the difference between playing a game and being a hobbyist.

Reply by: NAVARRO - click to view full reply 

5256

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/30 15:04:25

Post by: NAVARRO

Out of curiosity does this fit the idea of a "player" army?



I'm not saying its equal to prepainted or even comparing both, just curious if this fit into " dont care about kind of armies" issue.

Reply by: Wehrkind - click to view full reply 

4670

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/30 15:15:31

Post by: Wehrkind

Navarro, you win a bite of my bacon/chocolate bar here. Please come to Pennsylvania at your earliest convenience to collect.

I think there is a good point to be made that really BOTH sides are important, it just is a question of which is more important to you.

However, it is obvious that a well painted army is better than grey plastic/primer, and a good opponant (buddy, tactical genius, whatever) is superior to that annoying guy you are only playing against because no one else showed up to the store.

Personally, I feel guilty playing with proxies or unpainted models, but I don't even say anything if my opponant wants to. Well, ok I have threatened to steal Evan's primer grey rhinos and replace them with little camarro's, but that was all in good fun.
On the other hand, I have decided to just not play against certain people because they were miserable whether they won or lost.

Personally, if I was 100% certain that prepainted models would not decrease availability or raise the price of regular plastics etc., I would be down with it. While I really like chatting with someone about their painting and converting, and exchanging tips and tricks, I am not less likely to do that with a PPP as opposed to a primered marine. Both are equally good, or bad, in that regard.

Reply by: methoderik - click to view full reply 

1300

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/30 16:25:48

Post by: methoderik

I definitely agree it is more fun for me to play a game with painted miniatures. That said, I could care less who painted them.

I also play against unpainted stuff all the time, and still have a good time.

I would love pre-painted 40K stuff.

I have painted countless armies over the last dozen years or so I have played 40K. I will continue to paint more. I would love to have some pre-painted though. I have so many "In-progress" armies, that it will take years to paint them. With a toddler and baby on the way, my time to paint becomes less and less.

Ideally, at least in my mind. Games Workshop would continue with the build/paint your own, and have a complete line of the assembled/painted models to go along side of them. That way, everyone wins.

If Rackham can put out a pretty good selection of Pre Paints out... You know GW could really get that ball rolling the right direction.

Reply by: Platuan4th - click to view full reply 

320

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/30 17:06:09

Post by: Platuan4th

Valhallan42nd wrote:
What would you rather see in a battle report?

This:


Or this:


My friends back north used to run linked campaigns and do full battle reports. We were more telling a story than playing a game. The paint jobs made the photos more immersive and transportative. It's the difference between playing a game and being a hobbyist.

I never said I didn't prefer painted models over unpainted(in fact, that's why I support prepainted!). My point, which you missed, was that I would rather play a game against a fun opponent sans painted army that play TFG with a painted army worthy of a museum display. My playing the game and having a good time depends on the player, NOT the whether the army is painted or not.

And again, playing the game is being a hobbyist, there is no difference unless playing the game is your occupation(look up the definition of a hobby).

Reply by: ubermosher - click to view full reply 

4351

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/30 17:23:40

Post by: ubermosher

Valhallan42nd wrote:
What would you rather see in a battle report?

In a battle report? Obviously the first pic (gorgeous titan btw). In a game I was playing? Well, it depends... I'd rather play the army in the second pic if it was played by a skilled tactician and congenial chap over the army in the first pic if it was played by an immature kid whose daddy had plenty of cash to shell out to a painting service... and I'm speaking from experience here.

The moral is playing against a painted army doesn't always equate to a better game experience.

Reply by: Tazok - click to view full reply 

201

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/30 18:07:19

Post by: Tazok

ubermosher wrote: The moral is playing against a painted army doesn't always equate to a better game experience.

Ceteris Paribus, playing against a painted army is always better than playing against an unpainted army. Painting an army to a table top standard is really not that difficult. Sure it takes time, but that's what hobbies are all about, spending your free time pursuing the hobby (whatever it is). Wargaming is a social hobby, by not painting your minis you're taking away a portion of the enjoyment from your opponent, especially if they took the time to paint their army.

Reply by: methoderik - click to view full reply 

1300

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/30 18:37:51

Post by: methoderik

Tazok wrote:playing against a painted army is always better than playing against an unpainted army. Painting an army to a table top standard is really not that difficult. Sure it takes time, but that's what hobbies are all about, spending your free time pursuing the hobby (whatever it is). Wargaming is a social hobby, by not painting your minis you're taking away a portion of the enjoyment from your opponent, especially if they took the time to paint their army.

Not always true and complete opinion.

Reply by: Tazok - click to view full reply 

201

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/30 18:57:48

Post by: Tazok

Yes, it's opinion (painting versus nonpainting can only be opinion--it's a subjective subject). Just a few posts ago you agreed that, "I definitely agree it is more fun for me to play a game with painted miniatures." You even went on to say that you'd painted several armies (countless), so how hard can it be to paint an army if you've painted so many?

And what's not true? How can an opinion be false? You might think differently but that doesn't make mine or anyone else's opinion not true.

Reply by: Mort - click to view full reply 

6961

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/30 19:12:51

Post by: Mort

methoderik wrote:

Tazok wrote:playing against a painted army is always better than playing against an unpainted army. Painting an army to a table top standard is really not that difficult. Sure it takes time, but that's what hobbies are all about, spending your free time pursuing the hobby (whatever it is). Wargaming is a social hobby, by not painting your minis you're taking away a portion of the enjoyment from your opponent, especially if they took the time to paint their army.

Not always true and complete opinion.

But no more or less of an opinion than the folks who prefer to play against 'better players' with unpainted armies. Different strokes, and all that stuff.

For some folks, this hobby is primarily a social/intellectual outlet. For others, it's primarily an aesthetic one. And for others, it's a bit of both. Is it really possible to say any of those ways of thinking are 'less valid'?

To each their own, and all that.

Personally, if I am investing my free time into this enterprise, I prefer BOTH. I prefer an opponent that takes the hobby (as a whole) seriously enough that he'll assemble and at least attempt to use painted materials. Additionally, I prefer an opponent whose attitude I can accept. If I can't have both from a perspective opponent, that doesn't mean I'd brush them off or ignore them, but I will continue to keep my eye out for other players who are more like-minded.

I think it's natural for us to do this. I'd wager most of us have a group or number of particular opponents we gravitate towards, and it may not even be selection on a conscious level.

Just my 2 coppers, tho.

Reply by: JohnHwangDD - click to view full reply 

5421

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/30 19:23:24

Post by: JohnHwangDD

I love the cardboard cutouts!

Reply by: methoderik - click to view full reply 

1300

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/30 19:42:32

Post by: methoderik

Tazok wrote:Yes, it's opinion (painting versus nonpainting can only be opinion--it's a subjective subject). Just a few posts ago you agreed that, "I definitely agree it is more fun for me to play a game with painted miniatures." You even went on to say that you'd painted several armies (countless), so how hard can it be to paint an army if you've painted so many?

And what's not true? How can an opinion be false? You might think differently but that doesn't make mine or anyone else's opinion not true.

You said:

Tazok wrote:by not painting your minis you're taking away a portion of the enjoyment from your opponent

So I said:

methoderik wrote:Not always true and complete opinion.

Really do you need an explanation?

Edit to answer your question about painting. Also in my previous post I explained how in Fatherhood I have seen a decrease in the time I can spend painting. So, how hard could it be to paint an army, well... pretty hard.

Reply by: ph34r - click to view full reply 

11

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/31 01:30:05

Post by: ph34r

I only play 40k with my friends. I'll play regardless of what their army looks like, painted, proxied, bare metal, whatever. The game is much more fun, however, when both sides are painted.

Reply by: Kilkrazy - click to view full reply 

299

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/31 01:47:56

Post by: Kilkrazy

JohnHwangDD wrote:I love the cardboard cutouts!

There's an actual genre of wargaming with printed paper standup troop markers.

It's a pretty good way to play linear formation games like 18th century warfare. You can print up your own troops really quickly and cheaply.

http://www.juniorgeneral.org/donated/2008/dec26/french1.png

Reply by: JohnHwangDD - click to view full reply 

5421

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/31 01:51:06

Post by: JohnHwangDD

Back in the day, GW had lots of games that started with cardboard cutouts.

It just brought back some thoughts of the good old days.

Reply by: NAVARRO - click to view full reply 

5256

Pre painted space marines? @ 2008/12/31 11:47:17

Post by: NAVARRO

Looking back the only cardboard pieces I miss are the spacehulk and warhammer quest floor tiles.

Free bacon/chocolate bar? I'm stuffed with Cristhmas, mother's Bday and today new year cakes but I can make room for some more candy

This party season is a huge marathon of sugar stuffing here