Marneus Calgar
5x assault terminators all w. TH & SS
LRC w. EA

Darnath Lysander
5x assault terminators all w. TH & SS
LRC w. EA

10x tactical Marines w. multi-melta/meltagun/power fist - rhino
10x tactical Marines w. multi-melta/meltagun/power fist - rhino

G

Yay he took my advice and it's better.

I don't like how you sucked out of troops for points and honestly I think Lyasander is a waste I would much rather have Kantor for his bubble.

How about

Marneus Calgar
5 terms
LRC

Kantor
5 terms
LRC

5 TAC- combi melta or combi flamer and razorback maybe fist?

5 Tac repeat the above

5 sniper scouts

5 more sniper scouts

2 attack bikes with MM's

Don't know about PTS but it looks better.

I hope I have the opportunity to play you in GT this year.

G

much bettter, less hate

You doubled your combat ability which is great. I'd probably drop calgar for a chaplain and use the rest of the points on multi-melta bikes or speeders but it's much better and will be far more competitive.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I hope I have the opportunity to play you in GT this year.

G

As do I...

Cool!

G

The army is too small for my liking.
If the enemy can down one LRC the squad becomes stranded. A fast enemy army can avoid footslogging Assault Termies.
Still not a power build. But a nice try.

Your list has many weakness' Low troop, iniative 1 guys, Heavy Assault list which will loose out against Eldar. I think SM should Balance in Tournaments.

The Assault vehicle stance works so keep it.
Drop 1 of the Land Raider Crusader & Guys inside.

5x assault terminators all w. TH & SS
LRC w. EA
Leaves you with this.
Then use Rhino and other mobile troops combined with the Land Raider Crusader to make a spearhead i.e. Sternguard in a Rhino because they have troop killing power and objective winning potential.
Make 2 or more static troop choices for objectives.

I like this list better from a tactical point of view but miss Telion and Chronus. I will stick with this list for the time being and see how it works with some play testing. Thanks for the feedback.

G

On a side note I have recently played a couple of games with my BA army (2x Baal) versus dark eldar and have found the Baals to be very resilient versus the dark lance... so I figure the same should hold true for the LRC versus bright lances. Also eldar can't field as many bright lances as dark eldar with the dark lance. I played a 1250 point game versus dark eldar yesterday... He must have had at least 8 dark lances... didn't lose either Baal.

G

Telion and Chronus.

These guys hardly pay their points back. Nice gimmicks.
I'd stay away from them.

Telion can be nice, i mean who doesnt love BS 6 ML!

and have to agree, alot better but the low model count is worrying, maybe drop pods instead of rhino's for marines and sternguard instead of terminators in drop pods.

I'd give some of Lysander's mob some lightning claws to get some 1st round kills. One, maybe even two would work

No way I would switch out termies for sternguard. This list is for dealing with nob bikers.

G

Ahh just curious how would you counter lash, or a landraider spam?

Well, he has an orbital bombardment, and lots of thunder hammers, though it might be good to give the LRC's multi meltas

Thunder hammers are str 8 and can only glance a landraider.

oops... I should have been more specific, i was talking about Lysander's thunder hammer

Darnath's hammer is S10 and +1 for AP. Both tactical squads pack three meltas... MM/meltagun/combi-melta.

G

Has Lysander got enternal warrior or is he immune to instant death?

and hes T4 right.

IMO this list will get destroyed by triple vindicator armys or guard.

Most guard armies have trouble bolwing up a raider now there's 2 and, only 1 of them has to make it to kill everything.

This army laughs at three vindis.

G

This list looks much more solid than the last one. Two assault-y squads will beat out one anytime. Chronus and Telion were cool, but i agree with others that their points were better spent elsewhere.

My real question now is how worth it is calgar in this list? Maybe a termy armoured chaplain would be more cost-effective, and free up some room for some more troops. Maybe some scout snipers or something.

I still wouldn't call this a powerbuild, but in the hands of a good general I think it could lay some serious hurt on most opponents. Just make sure to hide those rhinos

I still dont think that this list is particularly a "Power" list. I don't even see it doing particularly well in tournement due to it being so obvious and 1 dimensional.

It's definatly better however with the second LR. How much better?......dunno.

keep the list GBF i would only switch the one assault temy squad with marneus to a shooty termy squad. they can still go into combat but then they would have storm bolters to weeken the enemy mainly hoards. just a thought.

Deathmachine that is not a bad idea at all. Thank you for the advice.

"I still dont think that this list is particularly a "Power" list. I don't even see it doing particularly well in tournement due to it being so obvious and 1 dimensional."



I just hit the IGNORE button.

G

So its another...

"I'm gonna post my list but dont be mean to me and say its anything less than perfect or I'll be upset."

....thread.

No, problem.

Might as well hit that ignore button one more time, cause that list is horrible garbage....still.

La la la...

G

Hey guys,

Telling someone their list is 'horrible' without making an intelligent argument about why you think it is horrible is not constructive criticism and can only cause arguments to start.

Even just saying a list is 'one-dimensional' doesn't really explain what you're talking about.


And on the other side GBF, I think anytime anyone labels their list a "power" build you invoke the concept of the 'best list possible' and therefore you invariably are going to get 'take no holds' comments from people who have a different idea of what that very best list is.

I think if you just call your thread: 'SM 1,850 tournament list' and then in the post itself say your goal with the list is: 'to win as many games as possible in a tournament with no other considerations' you're likely to get less flat-out negative responses.

Hi yak

Certainly my definition of a power build is not the same as everyone else's. I appreciate your input here a lot and modified the title accordingly!

G

I didnt actually mean 1 dimensional as a slight.

I rather meant that with the obvious attack coming from a couple of CC terminator squads within LR's and no real other SERIOUS threats in the army, to me there just doesnt seem to be much that this army can actually "do".

That's what I meant by one dimensional. I find that to be an obvious weakness in this sort of list. The army does a single thing, if you can stop that single thing (or crack that single nut) the army is dead in the water.

Well, the one thing you HAVE TO stop at 40k tournaments is Orks. Orks come in an many flavors, as a great man once said 'its hard to make a bad Ork list', but so far we've seen Loota Shoota's and Bike Nobs of Death. I guess Bike Nobs are not really one dimensional in that they can shoot as well as close combat, but they are still two death dealing point sink units.

What do Orks have trouble with in the space marine army? Well, Landraiders. IF I am correct, the assault range for the LRC and Terminators is equal to the Bike Nob. LRC's will shoot either AC or LC at Bike Nobs who don't close in, maybe not much effect, maybe enough to make the squad vulnerable ...

Lootas are not much good against Landraiders.

OF course, there are Ork Battlewagon builds and other flavors, but this list looks good against some common ork builds.

Now the bad news...., Obliterators can deep strike. Guard with melta-guns can deep strike. MM Landspeeders can deep strike. Made my point, no? LotD have relentless multimeltas, SOB often pack melta weapons, so, enough said.

You'd better get on the top board against a slew of non-marine non-drop guard armies quick, or you won't ever get to play Orks. I think you could beat up on Eldar but are vulnerable to the lucky hit on a LR. I think shooty tyranid armies will cry.

I don't know where you find the points, but I wonder if you wouldn't be well off to take the marine bike character, and buy scout bikes as troops in small squads. All the better to annoy, contest objectives by turboboosting onto or across the board on the last turn. In other words, I don't know if I like the full size tactical squads, I don't know how much use you'll get out of the missile launchers.

I think you've missed out on something by not having marine librarian(s) in the army. I wonder if you wouldn't be better running the army as Black Templars for their psycho resisting abilities. I wonder if you shouldn't have Grey Knight allies with an IL and LR to distress Demon armies instead of 2 pure SM squads.

Mike your points regarding deep striking melta warrant a lot of concern. One option is to start with all units in reserve and deep strike the terminators. I will post a more complete response later tonight.

G

I see Oblits as the main threat to the LRCs. It is quite feasible that in one turn two separate units of Oblits could come in from reserve via Deep Strike and destroy both thanks. To be honest I don't see a lot of IG armies and I can count on one hand the number of times I have played against them in big tournaments. Chaos on the other hand is extremely popular and Oblits even more so.

I don't want to change the list that much and there are not a lot of points to play with after you add up the two expensive HQ, assault terminators and the two LRC. If I were to drop anything at this point it would have to be Marneus as I need Darnath to quickly kill the warbosses in assault. That would free up a lot of points... I would add another full troop choice and take some attack bikes with multi meltas.

If I were to face a Chaos army with a good number of Oblits I would start with my army in reserve and even possibly deep strike the terminator units. In objective based games my goal would be to move onto the objectives as quickly as possible and either hold or contest them.

Thanks for not calling me an idiot!

You may indeed be able to use tactics to minimize the risk from Melta weapons. Games where no one starts on the board are quite tactically interesting, although I hate playing them at the local friendly game store as the amount of dramatic dice throwing mayhem may be quite reduced.

Do you have smoke launchers?


The SM librarian infinity gate with a squad of melta armed Sternguard however will be a constant danger. I think that some kind of double librarian /Sternguard may be a plausible SM army type.That's why I'd review the rules on ILords vs. deep strike. You might need it in a tournament situation. (I don't know the rules on it that well myself....).

Many tactics are possible with landraiders, like walking them butt-end to butt-end across the field acting as a wall for your other squads.......

I haven't mathhammered out any of the other Marine choices against the NOB menace, which is actually pretty similar to the Seer Council menace. I don't know if a tooled up command squad or BT squad with Emperor's Champion could take on 7 Nob bikers and a warboss. Some hard analysis is needed to make the decision. If you can find something less expensive than the second full terminator squad then you might want to take it.

I also wonder if you should take the LR with the Flamers instead of the Hurricaine Bolters.

You are UK as I recall, and tournaments there seem to run a bit different that over here from my bat rep gleanings. Yes, there is a 'metagame'!

Please keep us posted on the Bat Rep section.

Best wishes,

Mike

My math hammer tells me that assault terminators with storm shields is the best way to take down nob bikers. Getting off the charge Is crucial for the much needed +1 attack. I think that with two LRC I have a great oppurtunity charge at least one nob biker squad...
That is 15 attacks with hammers and 7 - 8 should hit for let's say 6 wounds. The nobs will lose four. Now you are counting on Darnath to drop the warboss and possibly take 1 - 2 wounds in return. I will assume each nob with a PK has three attacks and there are 3 nobs armed with PKs for nine attacks. Six hit for two wounds. Termies have won the assault by several wounds, are under ten and there is a decent chance they will break. If they don't then it's onto another round of close combat the next turn. The nobs are now down to five and still have all their PKs. After this round of assault there is not much left on either side. If the nobs with PKs focus their attacks on Captain Lysander he make come through with one wound left. Lysander and the remaing termies focus all attacks on the nobs now and their is better chance they can break then now.

The next big obstacle is the other squad of nob bikers. This is where Marneus comes into play with his big gaunlets. There is also the orbital bombardment which can be quite good to say the least.

G

Marneus Calgar
5x assault terminators all w. TH & SS
LRC w. EA

Darnath Lysander
5x assault terminators all w. TH & SS
LRC w. EA

10x tactical Marines w. multi-melta/meltagun/power fist - rhino
10x tactical Marines w. multi-melta/meltagun/power fist - rhino

Hey, G., give us some battle reports vs top tier lists.

I will after Christmas.

Cheers,
G

Hey, G., I'd give the Tacticals heavy flamers and missile launchers, since multimeltas are too short ranged.

I didn't know that tacticals can take heavy flamers now... anyways their range is much shorter than an MM.

G

I like it, although I've never played in a tourny before I reckon it would work but it dont get the Marneus Calgar and the Darnath Lysander what are the about?

GBF I have to say it takes a lot of nuggets to play a list like that. You know that there are many builds that can smoke that BUT, given the right mission, deployment and good generalship, I can see it working. I prefer normal terminators with Lysander for his "Bolter Drill" and keeping the Assault retinue with Calgar. Good luck with that. I would love to test the nob list against that.

Just curious but why the LRC's instead of just a normal Land Raider or a Land Raider Reedemer?

I think a LRR with a multimelta or two might be better for taking out horde armies. Or a Land Raider's Lascannons might be better for shooting at a vindicator

...

Did you actually just put someone on ignore for saying that an army with one specific play style is one dimensional? He wasn't even being insulting or anything he was calling a kettle black.

Words fail me buddy.

To add relevant critique, I agree with a lot of what's been said. I know you want to include Marneus but I think his points would be better spent on a third land raider for priority target saturation. You could toss a combat squad inside it to make it scoring and camp on your home objective taking pot shots at enemy armour.

Another option, seeing as your stated goal is "to win as many tourny games as possible" would be to substitute him for Shrike and a few more TH/SS terminators. Then your squads will be moving, deploying and charging like Dark Eldar but hitting like twelve tons of bricks.

PS your army is one dimensional. Ignore me :p

There are very few points left over if any for stuff like multi-meltas on the LRCs. I chose LRCs since they have the biggest capacity (don't necessarily need for the list as is now) and because they can lay down the most dakka. Certainly won't be needing the frag launchers! Heh.

G

Had a chance to play a nob biker list finally yesterday afternoon... The high point was an LRC tank shocking one unit of mounted boys off the table!

G

I think a standard terminator unit with Lysander makes sense -- you can use his bolter drill then. Then again if you really really wanna be ready for nob bikers then I guess the 3+ is needed.

I was considering a similar list but using a Lib instead of Lysander. The 190 point terminator/ storm shield variety with Null Zone and Vortex. That way you have some nice counters to various armies (null zone for terminator spam and daemons, hood for various psychic powers) while still having S10 available and the 3+ inv. Also (and this is more of a YMTC thing) there's an arugment to be made for not having God of War be usable for the units due to Lysanders chapter tactics. Another reason I'd lean toward the Lib. YMMV.

Also someone mentioned lash? Can't lash vehicles or units in them so lash is a bit neutered until mid-late game.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Had a chance to play a nob biker list finally yesterday afternoon... The high point was an LRC tank shocking one unit of mounted boys off the table!

G

How did the lysander/Clagaar combo fare?

Green Blow Fly wrote:Had a chance to play a nob biker list finally yesterday afternoon... The high point was an LRC tank shocking one unit of mounted boys off the table!

G

what were the contents of the list you played against? Did you win? what mission?

If you dropped marneus you can add a librarian and some attack bikes/land speeders. I know you'd lose the ST10 of lysander if you dropped him (you do gain 6 + 2d6 against vehicles), but I made an alt list that I think is a better for all comers.

HQ
Librarian, Might of the Ancients, Gate, Terminator Armor, Storm Shield 140
Librarian, Might of the Ancients, Gate, Terminator Armor, Storm Shield 140

Elite
Terminator Assault Squad 200
LR Redeemer, Multi-Melta 250
Terminator Assault Squad 200

Troops
Tactical Squad, Melta, Multi-Melta, PF 200
Rhino 35
Tactical Squad, Melta, Multi-Melta, PF 200
Rhino 35

FA
Landspeeder, Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer 70
Landspeeder, Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer 70
Landspeeder, Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer 70

HS
LR Redeemer, Multi-Melta 250

1850 Total

I'm not sure if the psychic powers are optimal or not. Nullzone might be a better choice over one of those abilities.

" I think shooty tyranid armies will cry"

Nope, our tear ducts quite functioning soon after the 5th BRB came out :S

I think you kinda killed the intent of his army...

Shrike78 wrote:I think you kinda killed the intent of his army...

How? I haven't played in any tournaments, but unless the chance of pulling a Nob Biker army is above 50% it would be best diversify a little bit. I'm not sure if GBF mentioned that the sole intent was to beat Nob Bikers, but if he didn't I think my list is interesting. You aren't going to win any tournaments with a counter to only 1 army.

Because, he really likes the lysander/clagar combo... it's the focus of his army

If I sound condescending, I'm not trying to be, that's just my understanding of what GBF wants in an army

Shrike78 wrote:Because, he really likes the lysander/clagar combo... it's the focus of his army

If I sound condescending, I'm not trying to be, that's just my understanding of what GBF wants in an army

No, you don't. I just thought I may have missed the "point" of his army. I know he mentioned somewhere about replacing Marneus, but I think replacing Lysander is another possibility because he doesn't bring that much to the table for 60 points more than a Librarian.

The mission was Seize Ground with table quarter deployment. There were three objectives... One deep inside each player's DZ and one close to the center of the table. My opponent had the two units of nob bikers along with a large mob of lootaz. I opted to start close as possible with the two LRCs carrying the HQ and assault termies close to the middle of the table. My opponent held one nob squad back to support the lootas while the other one flanked around headed towards my two rhinos sitting back by my deep place objective. I opted to disembark one squad of termies lead by Darnath from their LRC to fall in behind my other LRC headed over towards the lootaz. The one squad of nob bikers finally reached the two rhinos and popped both in one assault phase. I should maybe have split them off from each other so the nobz could only assault one but I wanted to sit on that objective and take my chances. The tactical Marines bailed out from their wrecked transports, lit up the jobs with the meltas and charged the nobs. It was ugly to say the least and I managed to kill four nobs, they in turn wiped one of the tactical squads and the broke and fell off the board edge... So it was looking like those nobs would hold that objective but my empty LRC made it back by the sixth turn, tanking shocking the remnant squad of nob bikers, breaking (what luck!)... They fell back towards their DZ but the fallback distance came up short on the dice and they could not regroup because of their close proximity to my tank. Over in the other far table corner the other LRC barrelled into the lootas and was immobilized when entering difficult terrain. The termies assault the nob bikers and Marneus went out solo to tussle with the lootas. The lootas lost the combat after being shot up by the LRC hurricane bolters then the remainder were ganked by Calgar, broke and fled. The first unit of termies held up the second nob biker squad long enough for Lysander and his termies to engage them. Marneus also entered the melée action and together they outright killed off the nobs and warboss.

So it ended with neither of us having any scoring units left so the game ended in a draw but I was way ahead on victory points at the end.

G

hmm interesting, it seems to not be terrible against the Nobs, which was one purpose of the build (after reading the thread it seems safe to say that, however you wnat to take this army to GTs right? So you need to be good against the vast majority of the T1 and T2 armies in order to have a chance to place). How would you deal with games that have 5 objectives? what about armies like dual lash that bring lots of melta and lascannons to the table and then manipulate your units (essentially breaking the LRs then pushing your termiesback and pounding them with plasma fire)? Do you think you have any chance of handling massed Dark Lance fire? Bright Lances are also great against your LRs, so Eldar seems tough (I'm sure you know the math but its worth stating that 1/3 of hits from lance weapons will penetrate your Lanr Raiders, and 1/3 of penetrating hits will kill a land raider). Someone already mentioned the potential nightmare of deepstriking melta weapons, but it seems to definitely be worth reiterating. You seem fairly well able to go toe to toe with the Nobs, probably to the point where you can even sacrifice a small amount of your power there in order to improve other matchups.

Basically, Nobs will be all over the top tables, but they won't be alone at all. Do you think you can handle any of the other powerful armies out there (specifically, Lash, Mech Eldar, Dark Lance spam and Demons of various natures like 24 Bloodcrushers, Nurgle, etc)? I just feel like anything that brings a moderate amount of tank hunting weaponry and even a small amount of mobility to the table can simply deal with the LRs in the first turn or 2 and then move away from the termies and shoot at them all game (and I know TH/SS termies are rock solid but they still lose 1/3 of their invulnerable saves). In a game with a large amount of objectives, they can almost just cruise around the termies and go right for your tactical squads to prevent you from holding objectives. at this point, they can claim a win if they manage to protect even 1 of their troop units throughout the game. In this sense, the list feels unprepared to deal with objective missions. You have tremendous killy power, but your opponent needs to basically play right into your strategy or you'll have almost nothing for them. I think this is what deadshane was trying to say when he called the army one-dimensional, however he basically failed to explain his point.

I would really like to see how this list does against Lash and Mech Eldar/Dark Eldar because frankly, it seems like a very uphill battle for you.

I'm not trying to sound rude or mean in any way, I just feel like you're focusing too much on one match and as a result, you're crippling your matchups against other things. I really think you need to consider the other armies as well since you will not be playing Nob Bikes the majority of the time. I come from a ccg playing backround and I've gone to a few world championships under the fatal error of being so concerned about one matchup that I turn too many others into games that are hard to win, thats why I feel the need to mention this. I'm just trying to give you things to consider to help you improve the list.

HQ
Librarian, Might of the Ancients, Gate, Terminator Armor, Storm Shield 140
Librarian, Might of the Ancients, Gate, Terminator Armor, Storm Shield 140

Elite
Terminator Assault Squad 200
LR Redeemer, Multi-Melta 250
Terminator Assault Squad 200

Troops
Tactical Squad, Melta, Multi-Melta, PF 200
Rhino 35
Tactical Squad, Melta, Multi-Melta, PF 200
Rhino 35

FA
Landspeeder, Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer 70
Landspeeder, Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer 70
Landspeeder, Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer 70

HS
LR Redeemer, Multi-Melta 250

1850 Total

I like this list more than that of G's. Seems more competitive to me.
However, I'd replace the Landspeeders by Attack Bikes; personal preference.

Hello Caffran. Here is initial response:

Melta in general - Centurion99 posted a 1500 point Grey Knight list with two LR. He was asked the same questions essentially and states that that AV14 is extremely durable. See his post for further details. You can find it on the second page of the army lists forum.

Mech eldar - typically you don't see this list as much anymore but when you do they don't bring a lot of bright lances. The truth is the bright lance is okay but not that great against AV12+. I say that based upon several games versus DE that were packing a lot of dark lances and I was fielding a BA army with two Baal predators. Against dark eldar hopefully it would be a KP mission. This is an army you rarely ever see and even moreso now.

I think this army will do okay against ork hordes as orks have problems with AV14.

The main weaknesses of the army are short ranged weaponry and low number of scoring units in multiple objective missions. In this type of mission I will have to be careful with my two tactical squads, try to kill as much as possible and contest objectives.

G

How are Bright/Dark Lances not that great vs AV 12+? I'd say they're better than just about anything else in the game against AV12+ except a Railgun (RG is AP1 so marginally better) or melta at 1/2 range (or whatever other str8ap1 that gets 2d6 ap rolls). AV14 is quite durable yes, I agree with you there. Especially against things like Lascannons and normal str8 weapons its a damn tough nut to crack, but the math favors the Lance weapons for damaging the LRs after a few shots at them. You may have been lucky against the Lances with your BA because 1/6 of the hits from Lance weapons should kill an AV13+ tank (based on the math in my previous post).

I feel like you're placing a little too much faith in that AV14, if 1 or both of those Land Raiders pop by turn 2, you're in for a very uphill fight. It feels a lot to me like the Necrons lists that were taking 2x Monolith in 4th ed, they needed to take 2 because they were almost promised to lose 1 of them in the opening turn of the game and they needed the 'lith to help keep the army up.

I will certainly check out Centurian's GK list for an explanation on AV14.

@ OP, you know you dont get the auto pass//fail morale tests from calgar if you bring lysander right?

Aside from the awesome orbital.. what does magnus calgar do? I havent got my SM codex to hand so I cudnt quote or remember the rule. What could you replace him with, if anything? Pedro? No stormshield though.

I posted a dual gate list but I think a two flavour variety with a nullzoned (& gating) lib with a squad of normal termies and a second lib with might (or haste) and gate with an assault squad with 2xclaws and 3-4xTH/SS. Its also a good idea to use locator beacons as the bad loose-a-model rule for gate is when scattering and rolling doubles (right?) and you dont scatter with the beacon (or scatter onto terrian/off the board). -- Thats the nessecities with dual gating IMO (Not inc termie flavours)

If you dont kill thoses LRC its game over. If you dont kill a fireprism then you are allowed to be sad but you havent thrown the game. ++

krusty wrote:@ OP, you know you dont get the auto pass//fail morale tests from calgar if you bring lysander right?

well, the termie squad he's leading still benefits from it.

I would also like to note, that when charging MEQ's odds are he gets 6 kills

Yes it has been discussed at length in regard to the GoW rule for Calgar. The unit he joins still benefits from it though and that is where it's most powerful.

Calgar is there primarily to crush nob bikers. Of course if I had to choose what to drop first it would probably be Marneus. I doubt I would do that though.

Bright lances and dark lances you don't see much these days so I am willing to take my chances.

G

Really? drop marenus? Is stubborn, bolter drill, and bolster defenses better than what calgar has?

I said if I had to consider dropping one unit... never said I would do it though. Nothing but Abbadon has the killing power versus nob bikers like my man Marneus.

G

Shrike78 wrote:Really? drop marenus? Is stubborn, bolter drill, and bolster defenses better than what calgar has?

Well, I think the main reason to keep lysander is S10 insta kills a warboss, and he has some added AT. I still think you gain a lot more with the librarians and their force weapons though. I'll let you guys know if I try this version of the list out.

I picked Lysander to kill the warbosses.

G

boon of mutation. The worst way to loose a IC

how?

Everything is atleast as vunerable to it as it is to a rending hit (i.e 6+ or better depending on T) and theres nothing you can do but shoot at the choas spawn that was once your crazy expensive HQ. This is for Choas Demons, btw

Ever HQ is vulnerable to boon.

G

to be honestly, I don't like the list:

to few models, you hit last in combat and only a few anti horde weapons

I would love to play against you with my list:
2 or 3 vindicators (depends on the other part of the list) and 2 drop pods with a lot of melta guns and power fist and 2rhinos with plasma gun plasma canon and combi flamer power fist

I would love to play against a vindi list. I will put my 3+ right up in your face.

G

I think you would do good against nob bikers and some of the other power builds. The problem you will have is with the first round when you don't know what you will facing. If you run into one of those then you will do well. However, if you run into and army that has a lot meltaguns and Multimeltas you will have some problems.

True. Luckily IG with drop teams and SoB in general are rare. Lash spam could be tough but I think I would have a decent chance against it.

G

For me I kind from the last few tournament I have been to, that there are a lot of marine players running LR or LRC. So I think a lot of your better tournament players are going to start to bring a lot of melta guns and eldar/dark eldar players will be bringing there bright/dark lances. So in my opinion for a SM player to really place high in a tournment he will have to come to the table with something other then LR or LRC.

Mr.fly (lols..) what would you do versus a dred-heavy drop pod army? Like 6 ironclads w/drop pods. another pod to get 4 pods down first turn. Some form of useful troops as an extra, maybe one thing of ranged anti-tank & one ranged anti-troop.

If I were to play against 6 iron class in pods let's assume three come down the first turn right beside both LRC and destroy one LRC with a melta shot. I have two rhinos each with two meltas that can move and shoot. Let's assume my opponent has his pods come down such that I cannot have two iron class in 1/2 range from one tactical squad. First I will fire all four meltas into one iron class... That is one down. Next I will fire the remaining LRC into another iron class... There is a good chance I will get one rending shot which should penetrate but probably will not destroy that iron class. I would charge the same iron class with Lysander and a squad of terminators. Odds are Darnath will destroy that iron class and I will take no wounds in return. Marneus and his terminators will charge the third iron class:

6 hits from Marneus, 4 hit, 1 glance/pen and I can reroll the failed attacks for say 2 glance/pen

Terminators have 15 attacks for 8 eight hits and 2 glance/pen

So that is three glance/pen. Probably will not destroy the iron clad but next turn I can charge him with Darnath.

At best most likely two more iron class will come in together later in the game on the same turn. Now I can use my multi-meltas to pop them.

Honestly I think my list is better.

About dark eldar... They have been seriously nerfed in 5e with TLOS and they do not have good units to hold objectives. While I respect lance weapons I would not design my army around them as I really don't think we will see much of them anymore.

The biggest threat is the melta which has to get close enough to be charged the following turn to be at 1/2 range.

G

I stll think a decent amount of deepstriking meltas, lance weapons, and Lash spam are going to be the toughest games for this list (Idon't really know how you plan to deal with meltas, which are definitely becoming more and more popular and with the current trned towards playing multiple LRs the Eldar players would be crazy not to pack at least 4-6 Lances in thier lists). Lash is probably easier to beat tha the first 2, but not by much. The good news is you should roll right over nidzilla and the matchup against Horde armies shouldn't be terrible (I would consider swapping at least one of the Crusaders for a Redeemer just for that extra bit of help though... Hurricane Bolters are extremely mediocre as they're just bolters that fire a few more shots than normal). You can also save 15pts per LR if you swap them to Redeemers, which is cool. I'm not sure what that 30pts gets you but it may be worth thinking about. Its really hard to free up a sybstantial amount of points in this list so I don't knoww hat would be bought with the 30pts. If you could somehow squeeze more points out of it, you could consider a small unit of Scouts to cmap your home objective. The list is rather aggressive in nature so those scouts probably won't receive much attention from the other player.

Beating the top tier armies is good, but if you then struggle with the tier 2 armies you can be in for big trouble if you get paired against said lower tier armies early or run into an overacheiving one in later rounds.

its ironclad not iron class

3 wont come down on the first turn, more likely 4 will.

Marneus can also only re-roll failed rolls to wounds, not failed armour penetration rolls.

Not that it matters much, assault terminators will munch through dread heavy lists without any troube.

This list is much better than your last one.

You will probably lose against horde armies, what dont care about your thunderhammers or your stormshields (2 LRCs will kill a few but not enough), but since Nob-bikers is the flavour of the month you will probably do quite well.

Yes, the idea is to get 4 to come down & Id probably go after the rhinos with atleast one dred apiece. Id quite happily wade through a SM squad while I get charged by the Termies, rather than having to completely try and pop open the LRC's. Also if I position nicely, I can get cover from the (if any) wrecks.

Termies wont easily beat ironclads, not two 5mans. Pens on 5, glances on 6 & the beauty of ironclads (and walkers in assaults in general) is so much (but not destroyed ) of the actual damage table is ignorable or inconsequential.

Those IC's are gonna be pretty though. Not much really to deal with them aside from lotsa dreds - but only WS4.

The conversion beamer would have a go at one of the tanks aswell - I love that guy.

Darnath's thunder hammer is the dread killer. Remember that the dreads cannot charge to turn they arrive so that leaves them vulnerable shooting for at least one turn. I could just inside my tanks and roll everything back 12" when the 1st wave of iron clads arrive via alpha strike. If this type of army proved very popular which I don't think it will I could always invest in a tactical terminator squad with chainfists. I prefer the 3+ though.

G

While the LRC gives you some anti-horde dakka, would it be bad to split the 2 LRCs into one LRC, one regular LR? It would give you some extra anti-tank and some flexability. Does that work?

Green Blow Fly
Marneus Calgar
5x assault terminators all w. TH & SS
LRC w. EA

Darnath Lysander
5x assault terminators all w. TH & SS
LRC w. EA

10x tactical Marines w. multi-melta/meltagun/power fist - rhino
10x tactical Marines w. multi-melta/meltagun/power fist - rhino

mikeguth wrote: I think shooty tyranid armies will cry.

How so? 1850 points of Shooty Nids? Throw in a core of 100 termagants with fleshborers as standard there 1250 pts to spare, and apart from melta's what do you have to deal with 2+ saves that 3 zoanthropes and 2 Tyrants will be packing? Not to mention all 5 with psychic Scream. Throw in the absolute bugger load of firepower from the tyrants 2 twin devourers, the crap load of shots from the deathspitters and your army being largely assault based is in trouble. Blow those Rhino's at range and immobilise them and then there's a little bit of anti-hoard firepower coming our way but we throw doen the surviving 50-80 odd gaunts and you're in trouble from being swamped. Yes, Nid's will have trouble getting the LRC's destroyed BUT we still have monstrous creatures and they are just as good in combat. Throw out Calgar and Lysander and pop those 2-3 Fex's who just popped the land raiders and now you sir are in horrid trouble. With no support and the tacky marines tied up in combat by a synapse supported and held wave of gaunts your wonderful 2+ save and 3++ save will not be enough to cause you to flee each turn from ranged firepower and the wonderful -5 to your leadership a full psychic choir can churn out. even if you get to charge range how many of those 3 zoanthropes are packing The Horror to make you stop in your tracks when you move to engage them because we're faster then you as an army and can manouvre in such a way that the only targets will be the zoanthropes who can't be charged on a failed leadership test which also forfeits the charge for the unit that turn. Calgar will kill a few gaunts at range but once those LRC's are gone the core of your force is in serious trouble. Heck the tacky marines against 80 odd fleshborers a turn take 40 hits take 20 wounds re-rolls for the other 20 giving 10 more for a total of 30 wounds that's a full tactical squad dead, and then that other tacky squad will kill 1 unit max? good for it, then it's shooting again.

the point of that little rant is simple: Shooty Nid Armies won't cry, they'll sit back and laugh at their good fortune - you're comingd irectly towards them and don't have the necessary firepower, the big guns to deal with them. If you get into combat who cares, those wonderful thunder hammers are gonna cause 1 wound a piece and not instant death things, Lysander is a good lynch pin same with Calgar buta good opponent will swamp them if need be.

In short, I feel you have too few models for the 1850 pt mark. Definitely able to trump ork nob Bikers as design to do, and that 3++ save will see you through alot of the 3 Vindi/heavy Plasma fire headed your way in some lists, but you have 2 scoring units and once they are gone so long as only 1 of the enemy units is safe you're in trouble. Pop those LRC's and the termies are stranded, same with the tacky amrines thena faster army will outflank and manouvre for the kills on their own ground.

One point someone made I fouund intriguing was adding in Shrike to make the termies Fleet of Foot, that's a nasty little surprise right there!

One question: Do you HAVE to use the Thunder Hammer attacks or can you just use your brute force to punch stuff instead at your normal initiative with no special rules? I always thought that was an option giving you flexibility against such opponents as massed Ork Boyz/Guard/Nids who will unleash a bucket of weak attacks to slowly take you down before you can attack.

The List is powerful, but IMHO, it isn't the best tournament list around as it is to limited in what it does and too predictable to thus counter (hence the 1-dimensional comments earlier in the thread).

Auretious Taak.

Nids really have problems with armor these days, even rhinos. Remember the GoW rule really helps Marneus.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Nids really have problems with armor these days, even rhinos. Remember the GoW rule really helps Marneus.

G

It may help him at that, but to the Nid Comments, you only need to immobilise those rhino's in your list to strand you, the Crusaders are more of an issue but by themselves you can't kill enough ina Nid Hoard to actually NOT approach the swarm with your assault troops and thus come within charge range of the monstrous creatures. You forget that a tyranid army, even a pureist shooting army is stilla Tyranid army and 4 or 5 monstrous creatures can still do a number on those tanks purely because strength 6-10 and 2D6 armour penetration with multiple attacks destroys tanks easily - throw in the fact that ignoring the assault termies abilities in combat you're gonna have trouble laying the big wounds on the MC's and you're in a bit of trouble.

Your's is going to be an advanced game of manuvre as much as the single tactic of delivering those assault termies into the heart of the enemy. Definitely not for the faint hearted and a single mistake will likely be the end of you.

To comments on replacing a LRC witha LR for the extra armour punchinga bilities, in general I find the normal LR to be next to useless - 5-7 shots a turn is not that great, not compared to 18 odd shots max from a LRC when compared this way and knowing that the army is seriously light on anti-infantry abilities the LRC's become a lynch pin that can't afford to be dropped, not even for a LRR becaause the Redeemer doesn't have the vital range to reach out and finish off not quite dead units 24 inches away vital to eliminate for kill points or to kill off for objective based games.

Cheers mate, let us know how you fair against a more hoard orientated army,

Auretious Taak.

G

I personally wouldn't run a list like this, as I feel the troops are too exposed. It could work, but then again, a mobile opponent would just beeline for the Rhinos and feed units to the Termies. Against Tau, Nids, or even Guard with mass numbers, I think this list would stumble a bit. Against Nob bikers, sure, this would probably tear 'em to pieces.

It's great for killing a few elite units, but lacks the firepower or numbers to deal with masses of cheap units.

Regwon wrote:its ironclad not iron class

3 wont come down on the first turn, more likely 4 will.

Marneus can also only re-roll failed rolls to wounds, not failed armour penetration rolls.

Not that it matters much, assault terminators will munch through dread heavy lists without any troube.

This list is much better than your last one.

You will probably lose against horde armies, what dont care about your thunderhammers or your stormshields (2 LRCs will kill a few but not enough), but since Nob-bikers is the flavour of the month you will probably do quite well.

BRB pg 73 6th paragraph:

Each roll made on the Vehicle Damage table against a walker counts as a single wound for the purposes of working out who won the combat.

I have another question... is this list for a GT? Isn't the GT points standard 1750? Where are you going to drop 100pts form the list, it seems rather tight as is.

A lot of the indy GTs are 1850 points. Plus unlike nob bikers this would make a good core for an Ard Boyz army.

G

[quote=Green Blow Fly
BRB pg 73 6th paragraph:

Each roll made on the Vehicle Damage table against a walker counts as a single wound [b]for the purposes of working out who won the combat.

Take this to YMDC, this is the army list forum.



G

Definitely, you may re-roll rolls to wound, there is no roll to wound against targets with an armor value.

IE, when I roll to hit your calgar, then I roll to wound him since he has a toughness value.

You roll to hit my ironclad, then you roll for armor penetration. Not to wound, to penetrate armor. Two totally different things.

Edit: it sounds like you guys already did take it to YMDC and were told that it wouldn't work like that.

And as to the army list, I agree with a previous poster, although good against our current flavor of the month lists, it will come up short in most games against hordes and balanced armies with a decent amount of AT. I'd prefer swapping one character for a psyker with a hood, but I understand really enjoying two characters and wanting to use them, regardless of the benefits of using something else. Its all personal preference.

I'd just be careful building a one trick pony like the nob biker players have. In not too long when new codexes hit, those armies won't be nearly as viable. However, as you said, most of those can be incorporated into an Ard Boyz force, so it isnt as much of a loss as the nob bikers will take in all likelihood.

targetawg I hugely value your input. Thank you so very much for setting me straight on the wound thing with the rules.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:targetawg I hugely value your input. Thank you so very much for setting me straight on the wound thing with the rules.

G

Is that sarcasm?

Why do you day that?

G

targetawg wrote:
Is that sarcasm?

yes

Have you played any games with this list yet?

I don't see how it can work in a Tourny with just 2 troop choices, especially against horde armies. I've gotta agree with the people who call this a one trick pony thats only going to do well against a few armies in certain situations. With 2/3rd of the missions being about objectives, your going to be fighting an uphill battle, especially if anyone pops those rhino's. And anyone whose a good enough general to make it far in the Tourny will know that those should be their first targets. That same smart general would also just feed you a string of weak units to keep your Termies busy and drop them through the occasional failed save, or just keep you at range and drop you with mass fire.

You've definitely got an advantage in Kill Point missions, having so few points to give out, but thats not gonna be every game you play.

So I'd really like to hear how well this list works out. Please let us know.

The army has done very well for play testing. The LRCs are more durable than given credit by people here. Also opponents do not focus on the troops for some strange reason.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:The army has done very well for play testing. The LRCs are more durable than given credit by people here. Also opponents do not focus on the troops for some strange reason.

G

What armies are you playing against? I look at my current CSM list and find myself wondering how you could possibly deal with the 13 Meltas (9 of which are in 115pt deepstriking throwaway units, so I'll happily trade 1 for 1 with your Land Raiders there) and 6 Oblits coming after your LRCs early in the game (turns 1 nd 2 basically will be all the time needed even if only 1 unit of deepstirkers comes in on t2). If those LRCs die early (turns 1-2) you've pretty much lost the game because your termies are horribly slow and won't be able to really catch the opposing army, or will simply take so much fire they'll be withered down. YES, AV14 is very resilient, but the current trends in army building (for building good armies anyway) are to include lots of melta or other high str/low ap weapons, and with the popularity of things like Nob Bikes, you will only see that trend increase (to instantkill as many Nobs as possible before combat happens). And if the opposing player can't really deal with the LRCs quickly, he can just go after your troops (which a smart player would seriously consider doing) and 20 marines won't last long with an army shooting at them. I have no doubt that your list will cream the vast majority of lists that aren't designed to win as many games as possible, however I really don't see how it can beat Lash with consistancy, or Horde Orks, or Battlewagon Orks, or Demons of whatever variety (especially 18+ Bloodcrushers with Fateweaver and 3 Soulgrinders with tongue, good luck with that one... the Bloodcrushers will slaughter your termies in cc). You drew with the Nob Bikes in the game you reported on a fairly lucky tankshock, otherwise it would have been a much different game. You can probably beat or tire Nob Bikes with decent consistancy though, which is the design of the list. I'm still of the opinion that in your pursuit of beating Nob Bikes, you're forgotten that other armies exist and are actually good/top tier (like Lash Chaos, Demons and other varieties of Orks).

Exalt.

If both of the ICs were taken out, and a termie chaplain and a terminator were brought in, you could fit two vindicators in this list.

By not doing that, you are much more dependent on your land raiders surviving. In a 5 game competitive tourney, you are going to have your legs swept out from under you more than once. That will adversely affect your battle points.

It is a good list against nob bikers, but a list with vindicator support also fares well against nob bikers...

To the person who commented on how few the troops are...

I used to advocate 30 marines/scouts when i was first messing around with the codex. I needed the 175 points to make lists with enough offensive output, so I dabbled with 20. As long as you have rhinos, 20 has been more than adequate for seize ground. It seems like dakka has come to the same conclusion. Just keep in mind that space marine lists are violently aggressive 'in your face' armies. Opponents just can not ignore the heavies and elites you bring. (assuming you took the right ones)

I don't hate the list GBF, I just think it needs more moving parts.

I don't think that vindicators are that great versus nob bikers. They will get one to turn to shoot then are assaulted. A smart ork player will keep his bikers 2" apart.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I don't think that vindicators are that great versus nob bikers. They will get one to turn to shoot then are assaulted. A smart ork player will keep his bikers 2" apart.

G

I'd be pretty damn happy if they decided to tear open Vindicators with their turn 2 assaults instead of my Land Raiders.

calgar and lysander are certainly better against nob bikers...

the vindicators would go in to fight other armies. Retaliating against obliterator suicide deep strike without having to open yourself up to lash is nice. Having a chance against a 'regular' ork army is nice. Putting two pies on bloodcrushers before you charge them might actually make those combats less painful. Vindicators can 'peace out' sternguard so fast that they are going to have to be a priority target. That means your land raiders may live, which means the sternguard are dead. And strength 10 ordnance is no slouch at killing land raiders. When you are in the mirror match, the person who gets out of the land raider first loses. The more anti-tank you can fit that isn't lysander, the better.

I just mentioned nobs because, well, they aren't useless against them. Draw the nobs into charging the land raiders, then land a pie on them, then assault them.

If you are determined to make a list that is single-minded nob biker hate... you are on the right track. But the revised title of your post states "designed to win as many tourney games as possible". I think having more than two active aggressive units is important. Unless, of course, those units can move 24" a turn.

Caffran9 wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I don't think that vindicators are that great versus nob bikers. They will get one to turn to shoot then are assaulted. A smart ork player will keep his bikers 2" apart.

G

I'd be pretty damn happy if they decided to tear open Vindicators with their turn 2 assaults instead of my Land Raiders.

Good for you Caffran9!

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:targetawg I hugely value your input. Thank you so very much for setting me straight on the wound thing with the rules.

G

You are quite possibly one of the biggest plagues of this site. You're no good at what you do, you troll constantly, and you're a prick to comments that were meant to be helpful to your list that you asked for comments on.

You are also quite possibly the WORST representation of a club I've ever seen, and my opinion of Wrecking Crew has plummeted even further than the indications were already going.

Seriously. How do you even get a game.

Edit: Also, as an aside, I'd have to say you're the only person I've met who is MORE obnoxious than Stelek. And keep in mind the ONLY reason we dealt with him is that he gave intelligent reviews and useful comments, as he knew what he was doing. You don't have that going for you.

targetawg I have a sign I hold outside the FLGS that says:

Will play for games. Please!



G

So if you basically refuse to listen to anything anyone says about the list (unless they're saying its an amazing army of course) why did you even bother posting it? You even asked for advice/comments on it! Then, when they are given, you completely reject them and feel the need to be sarcastic and degrading to everyone. Oh yea, you're cool all right.

Caffran9 wrote:So if you basically refuse to listen to anything anyone says about the list (unless they're saying its an amazing army of course) why did you even bother posting it? You even asked for advice/comments on it! Then, when they are given, you completely reject them and feel the need to be sarcastic and degrading to everyone. Oh yea, you're cool all right.

I wouldn't sweat it, he's a pathetic internet tough guy who makes bad lists and acts like a big shot. His mouth will get him banned in far shorter time than it took stelek.

Take the list to any major tournament since you don't want to change it. I'll look for you at the bottom of the standings.

For that matter, Conflict GT, January 17th-18th, still a few spots open, should come play.

Seriously this is the 2nd version. As people have noted there are not a lot of points left to play around with now. I would love to have a multi-melta on both LRC.

There are a lot of cool things this army can do tactically that you may have not even considered.

G

I think Pedro + Termies + Tac Powerfists is brutal.

A lot of power fists is always a good thing for sure.

G

Well if we haven't considered it then we may be missing a large part of the army and its effectiveness, so its probably in your best interest to tell us what those things are if you really want constructive feedback on the list and how it works.

I feel like I must be missing something at this point. I really don't mean to be rude, I'm just looking for more an in depth idea of how this list wins.

Actually I went back and read all the posts from today. I am considering what Shep said in regards to dropping one of the special characters... maybe consider dropping Marneus for a generic HQ in terminator armor to free up some more points. I am hard headed for sure but I will admit when I realize I am wrong. This is an army that requires a lot of play testing. This is the second version and it is a big improvement over the first list. I hate to drop Marneus but it's obvious he would be the first unit to drop. It may well be that this is just not an army that can win three to five games in a tournament environment against veteran players.

I am also considering putting all ten assault terminators into one unit and combat squad them the majority of the time. That would be one less KP in annilihation missions, plus ten assault terminators as one unit might be better against hordes. I will just have to keep play testing to find out.

I do appreciate all the constructive feedback and I do realize this list as it is now in it's second version has some weaknesses that can be exploited.

G

I think this is a good list for objective based missions because of the following reasons:

Full 10 man tactical squads are a great unit for holding objectives. Once they get on top of an objective they take a dedicated effort for an opponent to remove them. They can sit there and use the rhino to block LOS, plus they are good as a shooty unit.

The terminators, LRCs and HQs are good for contesting objectives.

Landraiders in general are a great choice in 5e albeit the threat from melta and lance weapons. Based upon my experience melta weapons are the bigger threat, but they are short to mid ranged with the exception of landspeeders and attack bikes. The best way to neutralize melta weapons is to deny them shooting at your armor at 1/2 range or less. Infantry should be deployed to support your armor... that is a basic tactic of modern warfare. Lance weapons have the advantage over melta since they have better range in general.

Here is the basic math for one lance weapon shooting at AV12+ with a ballastic skill of BS4:

67% chance to hit
50% chance to glance
33% chance to penetrate & 33% chance to destroy

67*33*33 = 7%

Correct me if my math is wrong. I typically field two Baal predators in my BA mechanized list and they have done great against DE lance spam. Two LRC would be even better since they are AV12+ all around.

G

I think this list is also good for KP based missions since I am fielding a low number of total units. Suppose with the current version of the list I field the assault terminators as one 10 man unit. That is a grand total of nine KPs:

2x HQ
1x Terminators
2x LRC
2x tactical squad
2x rhino

The HQ and terminators are hard to kill as are the LRCs. For every army out there that is equipped to kill landraiders there are just as many if not more that have a hard time at it. Orks and Nids immediately come to mind, Nids moreso than Orks but still your typical ork horde army does not have a lot of options. Sure a carnifex can trash armor but even with run I think a smart player can keep their landraiders out of their path.

G

***edited for spelling because this keyboard sucks

1 lance weapon isn't frightening, but a bunch of them are. And even though one lance isn't terribly frightening, they still bypass the resilience that AV14 offers. Then consider Guide as well (or twin linked at BS3 which has better odds of hitting than a normal BS4) and you're probably getting hit with 3-4 lances per turn. 9 hits from a lance weapon will average out to 1 dead LRC (1/3 of hits pen and then 1/3 of pens destroy) of so basiclly, they should open one up on turn 2 or turn 3 at the latest.

As for dropping Marneus, I agree he should go before Lysander, that str10 hammer is straight money. Which Generic HQ are you considering? The Orbital Strike seems like it can be a really nice feature for an army like this, especially to help in the horde matchup. At the same time, a Librarian can help you out against Lash, which will be a tough match (against dual lash you'll stop 1 of them each turn with the hood) and give you access to Gate of Infinity, which can be some very helpful mobility for the army given the tanks will definitely be the main attraction for enemy fire. chaplain makes your unit that much more deadly with the re-rolls in combat, but thats really his only exciting benefit. I'd probably test them all, but my initial reaction points towards a Librarian as the generic HQ of choice (Epistolary may be too expensive though I'm not sure you'll need to bother with him since you are unlikely to use more than 1 power per turn anyway?). He gives you a little more versatility through his powers (especially gate) which is a good thing. The points saved there can get you those Multi Meltas on the Land Raiders.

What is your reasoning for the LRC over either of the other Land Raiders? Do the Hurricane Bolters really make that much of a difference while you're rolling around? It just seems like its not much of a problem for most armies to shrug off a few bolter shots each turn. I dont' know if either of the other ones would be better for this list though. The Redeemers flamer template seems tempting, as well as its 15pts cheaper points cost, but you'll really need to get it stuck in to maximize the template weapons' effects and that means getting close to power fists/powerklaws/chainfists/whatever close range tank killing. This probably makes th Redeemers not worth it for you, but maybe its something to consider?

I agree that if you play smart, you should be able to keep your LRCs away form the carnifexes/monsterous creatures until your termies can bash them. I like running the termies as a large unit and then combat squading them to reduce your KPs as well. Sure for every army that can hose Land Raiders, there is an army that can't, but doesn't that mean you're going to get stuck with an army that can eat Land Raiders 50% of the time (couldn't help it and not trying to be mean, just fooling around with you haha). I would expect to see the lists that are lugging around a fair amount of high strength weapons near the top since those high strength weapons are also good against the Nob Bikes due to instant killing them. Just a thought and I'm not sure i it will play out like that or not. I know Lash does well consistantly and it plays lots of Oblits/Vindis/Meltas so it brings quite a few high strength options to the table. the LIbrarian can help a bit in this matchup with his hood though.

The Librarian is a great choice as a replacement for Calgar. I would probably go with something like this:

Librarian/Avenger/Gate
Terminator armor + storm shield

I like the LRC the best because that is simply what I have had the most success with over the years. The redeemer is very cool but it has to get within assault range to use the sponsons and I think most of the time you will only be able to fire a single sponson. The standard landraider would be a good option for this army since it lacks ranged weapons and I believe they can now transport up to 6 terminators but to be honest I find that my tanks rarely sit still that long to benefit from the maximum use of their lascannons... however those lascannons would be a lot better at dealing with falcons, prisms, serpents, raiders and ravagers so I will definitely have to reconsider. Another plus for the incarnation of the landraider is that you can now kit it with a multi-melta and PotMS is a lot better.

I still think in general that the LRC is the best assault tank in the game. They can lay down a blithering blanket of anti troop dakka that shreds hordes, plus you can keep them out of assault by forward screening them with assault units. The hurricane bolter is very underrated in my opinion. They are still defensive weapons and mulch units when shooting at rapid fire range. The assault cannon is twin linked and is still quite potent.

G

The Librarian can still KO the warbosses with his Force Weapon right? That might even make him a little better than Calgar for taking down the big guys. He doesn't have eternal warrior though, which is scary if he gets clobbered by a few powerklaw wounds and he's an IC so unless the combat is very carefully arranged they'll have a good chance of picking him out with one or two of their klaws. I guess the drawback of any non-Calgar hq slot at this point is the lack of eternal warrior, though that just makes the force weapon even better as it can drop a big model at least once before it dies.

IMO this list is fragile. I run a semi-competitive guard list (as they don't go full competitive well) and can actually imagine wiping the map against this army before turn 5.
The LRC's are great vehicles, but, they are still vehicles and melta fire (like drop vets or drop HQ's) ends them on a sucssful reserve roll. then there are bunch, well, less than a half dozen, terminators just itching to eat plasma fire. lascannons and tank fire will pop the rhinos with ease and then your army is reduced to a few footslogging marines... I dunno man, I could be way off on this but I think that at 1850 you are just aren't throwing out enough targets. Concentrated fire will end this army

Wheeew, just caught up, after nearly an hour :/

I am curious to hear more battle reports against Nobs, but at least the list is progressing in the right direction!

Kungfuhustler wrote:IMO this list is fragile. I run a semi-competitive guard list (as they don't go full competitive well) and can actually imagine wiping the map against this army before turn 5.

Lol, so 4 turns to annihilate it all? Even witha semi-competitive list that's not as frail as it could be by far.

That's what happens if you listen to a hustler.

G

Kungfuhustler wrote:IMO this list is fragile. I run a semi-competitive guard list (as they don't go full competitive well) and can actually imagine wiping the map against this army before turn 5.
The LRC's are great vehicles, but, they are still vehicles and melta fire (like drop vets or drop HQ's) ends them on a sucssful reserve roll. then there are bunch, well, less than a half dozen, terminators just itching to eat plasma fire. lascannons and tank fire will pop the rhinos with ease and then your army is reduced to a few footslogging marines... I dunno man, I could be way off on this but I think that at 1850 you are just aren't throwing out enough targets. Concentrated fire will end this army

You need melta fire to land within 6'' of a LRC to get that bonous pen & when you start doing that you start loosing units to the mishap table. Its a risky tactic. The termies will hide in the squad with the plasma fire, surely? While that introduce them to mr.th. Otherwise its shelled up in a LR.

GBF - Ever concidered taking null zone, as a counter versus other assault termies & demon types? As for the dred thing - theyve got meltas which they can use on the turn they drop (they dont explode by scattering onto friend/foe) but its only a str 8 weapon soo id definetely go after the troop rhinos..much easier to pop & generally a better way to use that 1st turn of melting(I did mention this before). Once the squads out, its either a game of chase (where I keep winning in cc with you falling back but close to your own table egde) or you rush the termies at me. I might change the second two dreds to normal dreds & have some plasma cannons on em.

My point is, Always go for the troops!

very good i like the idea of all the termis and crusaders commin in from the side destroying everything

GBF - Ever concidered taking null zone, as a counter versus other assault termies & demon types? As for the dred thing - theyve got meltas which they can use on the turn they drop (they dont explode by scattering onto friend/foe) but its only a str 8 weapon soo id definetely go after the troop rhinos..much easier to pop & generally a better way to use that 1st turn of melting(I did mention this before). Once the squads out, its either a game of chase (where I keep winning in cc with you falling back but close to your own table egde) or you rush the termies at me. I might change the second two dreds to normal dreds & have some plasma cannons on em.

You know I am seriously considering taking Tigerius. That would free up the points to put multi-meltas on the LRCs.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:

GBF - Ever concidered taking null zone, as a counter versus other assault termies & demon types? As for the dred thing - theyve got meltas which they can use on the turn they drop (they dont explode by scattering onto friend/foe) but its only a str 8 weapon soo id definetely go after the troop rhinos..much easier to pop & generally a better way to use that 1st turn of melting(I did mention this before). Once the squads out, its either a game of chase (where I keep winning in cc with you falling back but close to your own table egde) or you rush the termies at me. I might change the second two dreds to normal dreds & have some plasma cannons on em.

You know I am seriously considering taking Tigerius. That would free up the points to put multi-meltas on the LRCs.

G

Damn I was literally just about to suggest Tigurius. Some of the marine psychic powers offer great utility and I think he can really contribute quite a bit to the list. Definitely something to consider and have a playtest game or two with.

Aside from being able to cast anything & possibly a 3rd power a turn.. what else does he do? How effective is he in CC?

Tiggy raider.. lol

He is arguably better than Eldrad.

G

Fortune & doom < therefore I would disagree with this. Besides the powers though (Sm powers have an intrinsically different powers to eldar) depending on point cost (I havent got my SM codex to hand) I could easily agree. Saves?

Although the kinda units you can put tiggy with (termies) and the kinda units you put eldred with might nessesitate the use of doom & fortune so its really a toss up. Eldrad isnt choppy.. hes an overburnded farseer with a cool deployment rule.

IIRC Tiggy is 230pts but Idon't have the book in front of me. He's also a bit better in close combat than Eldrad due to having more attacks and a master crafted force weapon. His re-roll on reserves rolls can be cool too, but I'm not sure if with this army, it'll come in handy or not (are there any matchups/missions/situations where you want to start this army in reserve?).

Comparing the strength of the psykers based on their powers seems iffy since clearly the powers are far different, which makes each one's roll within its army much different. Eldrad causes problems by buffing units around him with Guide/Fortune/Doom, where Tiggy is generally more aggressive with Gate/whatever offensive powers.

Eldrad may be more survivable on his own since he gets an invulnerable save and Tiggy doesn't, but you stick Tigs in a squad of Assault Termies and he's tough to get to grips with if combats are carefully arranged.

Tiggy is 230 points. I think he makes the army more tactical than Marneus.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Tiggy is 230 points. I think he makes the army more tactical than Marneus.

G

more tactical? sorry it just sounds a little funny when put that way, reminds me of Sarge from Halo "lets get tactical marines!" You're right though, he certainly provides some more versatility to the list, and gives you some different options for dealing with situations that you'd be a bit hard pressed for worthwhile solutions for with Marneus. I think he's really worth having a go with. you also save 20pts when you switch Calgar for him, so you can get the Multi Meltas on the LRCs. I'm interested to hear some results from testing with Tigs, I think its a positive move to try him out.

I am going to try to playtest this list this weekend.

G

Looks like I have a ham lined up for Sunday!

G

How about if you drop those chars that are sucking up major points (250 pts in excess, that's a LR!) and get stuff that, you know, actually kills opponent's stuff? Like say, fast AT like MM/HF Speeders or MM Bikes? OR WHATEVER essencially.

Unless you designed it to win as many ART tournies. Then Kudos.

Are you saying Marneus and Lysander can't kill?

G

Could they kill 450 Pts worth of anything else?

No

They can help kill more than 450 points... yes. Nob bikers are crazy expensive.

Lysander can romp around on some Nob Bikes and instant kill T5 characters (like Warbosses) with his hammer. He is very important to this list.

Marneus is Eternal Warrior so he won't die from one PK swing, but he's much less effective than Lysander since he doesn't get the same 3+ invulnerable and str10 attacks.

Marneus might be able to go, but Lysander is rather important for the matchup with at least the Nob bikes.

I agree with the tiggy idea - a standard HQ would simply fill the gap in one of the termie squads where as tiggy does the job quite well (gap filling) and adds in alot of variability. Null zone.. just awesome. etc etc

Decided to stick with Marneus for now and got in a game versus stealer shock list:

Broodlord w. full retinue/feeder tendrils
5x 10 genestealer/feeder tendrils

3x Zoanthropes/warp blast + Choir

2x Gunfex/barbed strangler + venom cannon

Mission was Seize Ground with Dawn of War deployment. Three objectives placed fairly close together in the middle of the table.

Strategy was to stay mounted, move onto objectives and fire LRCS into stealers then counter charge gunfexes if they decided to come up and charge my LRCs... also keep rhinos back behind LRCs to protect my scoring units.

Stealer shock army deploys up on top of DZ ready to take all three objectives asap. I let my opponent go first by the way and start with all units off the table.

1st turn the stealers move onto objectives with broodlord and crew held a bit back as a counter assault unit. Soaps are spread out amongst the forward stealer units so they can pound my LRCs with warp blast. One gunfex on either side of his line. My whole army comes in maintaining a safe distance from possible charges. Hurricane bolters light up one squad of stealers and use PotMS to light up another squad with donkey cannons. Result - two stealer packs smoked.

2nd turn both gunfex start to trundle forward as predicted towards my LRCS. Rhinos are behind and screened from Nid shooting. Zoaps target one LRC, one misses, one bounces, and the other is able to glance for a shaken result. Gunfexes fire venom cannons at same LRC (bad move) for another shaken result. In return I open up on one stealer squad using PotMS with donkey cannon on a fresh unit of stealers and smoke three. Second LRC targets same squad and slags them.

Gunfexes will have to run in the third turn to be able to charge LRCs next turn. Zoaps open up again on one LRC and manage to shake one again. Two stealer squads charge one LRC but cannot pen it with rending attacks. My turn the two LRCs tank shock stealers out of the way, move into charge range of gunfexes then pivot so that they can disgorge termies and continue pounding stealers with automated shooting. Rhinos pull up so I can fire meltas into one by gunfex. LRCs drop another squads of stealers... Down to two units plus broodlord with retinue. Combined melta fire from rhinos wounds one gunfex. Marneus also manages to drop another wound on the fex with his built in bolters. Lysander splits off from his squad of termies to charge on squad of stealers... his termies charge one fex. Marneus also splits off to solo against the other stealer squad while his termies charge the other fex. Both fexes are vaporized by termies. Marneus drops four stealers and takes two wounds. Lysander drops two genestealers and takes one wound. Both stealer units hold.

Fourth turn broodlord and crew come out to play, moving into position to assault one squad of termies. Zoaps continue to target LRCs and immobilize one. Assault sees Marneus take another wound and he drops three more stealers. Lysander holds up as well taking two wounds and splats two more stealers in return. Broodlord and retinue drop three termies and remaining two termies drop three stealers in return. Everything holds. My turn both squads of Marines disembark and split up to join the two HQ. Unengaged termies charge Broodlord and retinue. LRCs open up on two Zoaps, one wound on one and gank the other. Rhino storm bolters target wounded Zoap and drop it. HQ with Marines finish off both stealer squads, combined termies lose three more but kill three stealers in return. I am now holding two objectives and contest the third with an LRC.

Game goes into 6th turn. Lone Zoap takes a shot at mobile LRC but bounces. Broodlord and remainder of his retinue finish off the rest of the termies. Lysander splits off from tactical squad to solo versus broodlord after retinue is blown away by rapid fire. Other shooting smokes the last Zoap. Lysander charges broodlord taking no wounds and stuns the beast with his hammer.

7th turn Darnath and broodlord suicide each other.

Victory for Marneus and friends.

Might have another match tomorrow... IG or DE.

G

Seeing as the stealers can only get up to a 13 on a pen check (Str 4 + 6 on a 1d6 + 3 on a d3), what was the point of him charging his stealers into your LRC again?

That's a good question. I can only suppose he wanted the extra movement.

G

No offense GBF but you seem to play against some fairly unintellegent people in your area. Based on you "battle-reports" people in your area really don't seem to know how to play the game but hey, it makes your list look good

That was quite an arrogant statement. I would live to see you say that to their faces.

G

G/L against that guard army...

Hulksmash wrote:No offense GBF but you seem to play against some fairly unintellegent people in your area. Based on you "battle-reports" people in your area really don't seem to know how to play the game but hey, it makes your list look good

Sorry But I have to agree with this based on the last few Bat Reps you posted.

It's the internet and from what I've determined your somewhere in florida (a continent away from me). Though look on the bright side. If you get a hurricane then i'll be in the area and we can get a game in.

I was just letting you know based the facts you've reported you have yet to play a competent opponent but do crow the greatness of the list. Just my two cents.

I am just reporting the batreps as requested. I haven't said any of my opponents are veteran gamers. The purpose of the battles is to playtest the army - that is all. I am sure when I eventually take the army to a few tournaments I'll probably come up against some tough competition.

I am curious what you would have done differently if you had been playing the same exact Nidz list. Nidz are just not that great when it comes to cracking AV14. He got into assaults but the 3+ storm shield save nerfed the rending attacks from the genestealers.

G

Well, I also think your opponent made a lot of mistakes, but he might have just been caught off guard. For starters, it seems like he wasted a ton of genestealers isntead of wating for the Zoanthropes to crack one of the LRS. And depending on where your Rhinos were, I don't see why he focused no attention on them at all, especially with the Stealers. I still think the list has potential. I'd like to see how you'd do with Tigurius.

I kept the rhinos behind the big tanks the first few turns. They were well hidden from the Zoaps and gunfexes. Towards the end I had to charge in the tactical Marines to support the HQ and dwindling termies.

The genestealers had to assault as that is all they are good for... Until they could assault they were simply bolter fodder. They did okay in assault but there was not enough of them left to swing the tide. I did make a game of it by charging out though. The Zoaps just had some bad shooting versus AV14 which really is not that surprising to me. Carnifexen could only shoot the LRCs and can only glance at best... He tried to assault the LRCs and then they were assaulted by thunder hammers.

If someone is simply going to say that my opponents suck arse and say this is okay because it is the Internet but not offer any tactical support to their argument I am going to tend to ignore what they have to say as it just comes across as bitterness really. That's my 2c.

G

Part of my statement about that guy not being a veteran gamer is precisely because of the list he fielded.

But in his situation my genestealers would have been behind the carnifex's to help with cover saves. I'd have made you come to me while attempting to immobilize your LRC's with the venom cannons. That would give me 2 turns of shooting before the zoap's or you had range since you whole army only has a 24" range and my range with the big guns is much longer you'd have to come to me. I sure as hell wouldn't have moved toward you and given you shots against my genestealers

That is just the general strategy I'd use since i don't know the terrain or the way you set up or moved but the main thing is that your opponent brought a non competetive list.

I read about 2/3 of this thread, so maybe this issue already came up:

calgar is from the ultramarines, lysander is imperial fists. It really annoyed me reading the SM codex that gw didn't make more of an effort to highlight that fact, or at least make a rule allowing you to use only one special character per list.

SM players (maybe this guy too) will probably even paint them the same colour. It's really repulsive if you enjoy the atmosphere of fighting in the 40k universe which is usually quite rich and coherent.

@ Hulksmash

It's obvious you did not closely read the batrep as I did move my army towards him and he did try his best to take out my LRCs as soon as he had the chance.

This Nid list was copied exactly from one that made it to the Ard Boyz finals last year. Do yourself a favor and stop beating yourself up over this.

G

First off he moved closer to you and actually ran his big bugs at you.

Second how did his zoaps start that close in Dawn of war, they should have been coming in off his table edge.

And as for 'Ard Boyz I'm not really that impressed with most ard boy builds since what works at 2500 doesn't at 1850-2000 and the list you posted is a very, very weak lower level tourney list.

You spent a long time thinking how to respond.

G

Vaul wrote:I read about 2/3 of this thread, so maybe this issue already came up:

calgar is from the ultramarines, lysander is imperial fists. It really annoyed me reading the SM codex that gw didn't make more of an effort to highlight that fact, or at least make a rule allowing you to use only one special character per list.

SM players (maybe this guy too) will probably even paint them the same colour. It's really repulsive if you enjoy the atmosphere of fighting in the 40k universe which is usually quite rich and coherent.

There are plenty of reasons why Marneus and Lysander would fight side by side. On top of that, it specifically says in the codex that every single character can and SHOULD be used as a 'counts as' for a build your own chapter. And finally, this is a power build, not a fluffy build. Who cares what is being run?

Why would not Marneus and Darnath not fight together? They obviously compliment each other... Both attack typically at I1, have the EW rule and come with 4W apiece.

Something that a lot of people overlook in regards to Marneus is that he also has a power sword that rerolls failed wounds... basically a pair of lightning claws. I have used the sword often enough when he is solo versus a warboss on a bike that has lost a wound or two. I will put his rerollable sword up against a lot of enemy HQs any day of the week.

This list was specifically designed to beat down nob bikers and it can do it on a consistent basis. It is not a fluff list by any stretch of the imagination nor have I ever billed to be as such really.

I personally love a fluffy list that can win but in a competitive environment you have to load up if you want to walk away with the W against lists such as lash spam and nob bikers. This is specifically what this list is designed to do and nothing else.

G

Looks like I will have a shot at either IG or lash spam tonight.

G

If you are going to switch one squad of termies to a shooty then stick them with lysander for the bolter drill. Plus then the shooty squad has at least one storm shield from lysander for the better invuln save.


Ive used a similiar list at 1500. Only one raider, but 2 troops got razorbacks with twin las. Annihilation scenarioes are an issue, but actually does nicely in objectives becuase the eternal warriors are VERY hard to kill.

Just looking at the list I have to ask some questions?

Why Marneus and Lysander??? Is it really just because Marneus can't be oblited and Lysander is ok in hth???

Your spending 400 points on thunder hammer termies, why no vulkan??? He makes the list much more punchy.

Also, why the land raider crusaders? Why not an something like a redeemer? The only reason to use LRCs is the cargo room.

Finally, I think a librarian would go a long way in this list. The hood would give you some protection from lash and the re roll invulnerable saves helps against armies like daemons.

Pete

Lysander and Marneus are both Eternal Warrior, which is extremely important when you're matching them up against T5(6) Ork Warbosses with str10 powerklaws because the boss can't just squish them before they get a chance to fight back.

Vulkan is not in the list because he dies to a str8 weapon in one shot, which is not durable enough by any stretch. He would increase the effectiveness of the hammers greatly, but he'll also die fast and his cc ability is mediocre at best.

LRCs... the Hurricane Bolters are defensive weapons, so you get the max amount of shots while on the move from the LRC as opposed to the other options. This is important because its constant pressure on opposing units. Redeemer is tough because you basically ahve to park it on top of an opposing unit to use the template, and even then it can only fire 1-2 weapons max when it moves (and good luck lining up both template weapons in 1 shooting phase due to the size of the LR and placement of the weapons around the hull). Normal LRs give Lascannons for more help with big/high AV targets which is very nice, but they come at the expense of much needed anti-horde firepower.

I still really like the Tigerius idea, though its tough to call since Tiggy can be punked in one shot. The versatility he brings to the army could very well outweigh the relative weakness to high str weapons though.

Ummm... Eternal warrior is great and all but we're talking about Vulkan giving you 5 more Thunder hammer HITS per turn. Plus Vulkan is not a wet sock. He does have a 3+I save which gives you a fighting changes. Plus the relic weapon (hitting at Inititative) and hvy flamer is a perfectly fine config to deal with the rest of the Ork army. IF you don't want to sacrifice him, leave him in the LR... Same with Tiggy. He works just as well in the landraider than outside and helps deal with armies other than nob bikers.

10 re rolling storm shield / thunder hammer termy squads with the charge from the landraider are going to beat the bikes by themselves.

Seriously, this list is supposed to be for most wins not most win against nob bikers right?

Put my list with Vulkan and Tiggy up against this one with Marneus and lysander and you'll see mine wins everything. The combo of re rolling thunder hammers and you having to re roll successful Invulnerable saves swing the pendulum way in my direction....

It's not like Marneus and lysander have a ton of wounds. I see the strength of the combo, I just have a tough time believing it's the strongest build.

Pete

remember that marneus and darnath hit on 3+ and marneus rerolls wounds. Darnath is an absolute necessity since he insta kills the warbosses.

Flamers are right nexy to worthless against nob bikes since they still get two saves.

We're not saying the curent list is best. If you read the thread (seems like you didn't) you'd notice that Tiggy will be playtested at some point. I think Vulkan was mentioned at some point as well, however its obviously easier to guage the effect of changes by making them one at a time.

Personally, I like Vulkan a lot. He's my favorite character in the SM book and I'd be inclined to play him. He's just so squishy in comparison to Eternal Warrior. Leaving him in the LR makes it basically 195pts to mastercraft 10 Thunder Hammers, I'm pretty sure thats not worth it.

Honestly I think Lysander is necessary for that str10, which does make a huge difference. Marneus can go though, we've established that and are more than willing to playtest other options (right now Tiggy or maybe a normal Epistolary Librarian is the main focus of that).

Since this thread is back up top...

GBF. You still in love with LRCs?

I just keep moving 12" over and over, every time I play. There seems to always be a melta-bomb sarge, a rending bloodcrusher or a shoota boy unit within 12" of where I want to be. And I'm the defenition of a conservative player, especially when I play low model count armies.

I suppose when get that matchup where there are no close combat threats to the LRC then you get that sweet 6" move with all the bullets going one way and POMS multi-melta picking a different target. That is actually pretty respectable shooting from any vehicle.

Basically, have you thrown the redeemeer in yet? If not, just keep track of how many times you go 12" and have more than one unit within 8".

My thunder hammer list has been running godhammers. It is primarily because I run two vindicators that I don't need the horde thinning. But the standard LR is still an awesome choice if you want more transport take-down. One lascannon all the time, and two at different targets when you slow down a bit is sweet.

Great list. lots of 'advice' on how to improve this list...

My advice on how to beat this list - go for the rhinos 1st turn to stop & possibly kill those tac-squads & let those I1 Termies (&I4 God of war dude) come to you.

Any chance of adding a small scout squad in there som-where - or are the points really that tight?

If I was playing nob bikes versus vindis I would combo the chinese fire drill plus turbo boost. One turn shooting max with minimal number under template then power klaw to AV10. That is an equation for disaster.

I chose LRC for many reasons. One template that needs PotMS and brings the vehicle into charge range is not my style but maybe milaege varies for other Rambos out there.

G

There are no spare points. The list comes out to exactly 1850 points.

G

Yes. Thanks. I did read the whole thread. I'm actually agreeing with the Tiggy option suggested earlier in the thread.

And while I see you your point on the S10 obliting the warboss, I think there are better configurations.

Consider this. Hitting on a 4+ re rollable is better than hitting on a 3+. And taking damage against a termi with a 3+i is cheaper taking damage against a special character with a 3+i.

I'm saying keep the characters out of hth. If you really want to optimize the list take vulkan and drop one of the special characters and buy 5 more termies.

For the same points you could have 15 termies with re rolling thunder hammers, which is far superior to the current build mentioned.

Or... Alternatively take a librarian, as the librarian really helps you deal with other top tier lists (ie, fate weaver blood crushers, dual lash, or other termi hvy SM builds).

As for my other point. When I say leave the character in the tank. I'm not saying waste the character. send him off to deal with other parts of the Ork list, for example with a tac squad in a rhino.

Pete

Vulkan and more termies is a good idea. I will try it tonight. Thanks for the tip.

G

I just playtested AGAINST this list, the funny thing is, my battle report is SO like one of GBF's its surreal.

My Lash army vs this list....I'll just give a rundown of what happened.

Kill point mission, 12" deployment. He chooses to go first and chooses table side. Sets up on the line in order to get to me fast.

I steal Initiative.

TURN 1

Oblits pop loaded LR Crusader...no terminators die.

HIS TURN 1

Everything rolls forward Crusader and Rhino's all pop smoke. Marneus joins squad on other Crusader.

TURN 2

During movement make sure nothing of mine is beyond 6" from my board edge

Oblits unleash on LR Crusader...Immobilised.

HIS TURN 2

Terminators Marneus and Lysander begin the long walk toward my army, still about 12" away from my lines....Rhino's come forward another 12" blocking line of sight to terminators as best they can. Pop hatches and take meltagun shots at Oblits...I make my invulnerable save after a single hit.

TURN 3

One Daemon Prince moves for line of sight on Superfails. Oblits stomp toward rhino's.

Oblits all easily Melta Rhino's wrecking one, exploding the other. Wrecked rhino's has marines deploy on other side trying to hide. Lash one unit of marines (the ones from the exploded rhino) closer to Oblits....6 oblits charge (these oblits annihilated the X-port). I get lucky and roll all 5's and 6's to hit with fists. All marines die, but not before the sargeant manages to power sword 1 Oblit for 1 wound.

Daemon prince lashes Superfails 12" back toward Immobile LR.

HIS TURN 3

Moves tactical squad around wrecked rhino to engage Oblits, Superfails move forward 6" run 4". Other terminators now across the feild.

Tacticals rapid fire oblits killing 1...my opponent forgets that he cannot charge after rapid firing.

So far I've lost only 1 oblit and 1 wounded....my army must be awesome! If you argue this I'll get mad and defend it while throwing cliche' comebacks at you.

TURN 4

Lash Superfails back again...they're still hanging back by the immobilised LR that my opponent in his frustration keeps forgetting to shoot. Lash the other unit of terminators back.

Oblits plasma cannon all tacticals into next week.

So far 5 kill points earned...he has none.

HIS TURN 4

Superfails move/run forward 9". Other terminators 7". He remembers his LR and fires melta's hurricane bolters and Assault cannon into Oblits with 2 guys. I take one wound thanx to cover saves.

MY TURN 5

Oblits Lascannon the Crusader...wrecking it.

Lash Superfails and other terminator squad back 6"....twice.

HIS TURN 5

Superfails and Terminators both move forward 10", he tells me I'm a coward for not charging them. My soda goes down the wrong pipe as a result.


Roll for game continuance....game stops.

My opponent starts flailing on the ground as if having a seizure.

After I stop laughing at my 6-0 Kill point game I realise that I forgot to deploy the rest of my army. I only played with two lash princes and 9 oblits.


My lash army must be awesome...playtesting it against a sister army tomorrow based on Repentia, and archo-flagellents.

My revised "Lash Power list"(designed to win as many tournement games as possible)

two princes with lash

9 oblits

Who cares what else.

Oh, I forgot, we go get wasted drinking beer after the fun game...Yahoo!

That made my night

I remain unconvinced of Calgar + 5 Assault Terminators.

For example, Cassius + 7 Assault Terminators (405pts). In assault you get 21 TH attacks + 4 PW (all with re-roll to hit) hits from Cassius vs 15 TH + 5 PF attacks from Calgar's, and only Calgar's has re-roll and it's to-wound with S8. So Cassius' will hit harder, as long as he doesn't lose 2 models. Calgar's can't suck up wounds forever either.

Same ammount of wounds but with more models at 2+/3++ and Cassius is T6 so there goes Eternal Warrior against PK Boss. Granted, Calgar will save you from more of those hits.

So are those 45 extra points worth it? The Gauntlets? (you're losing God of War with Lysander). I personally don't think so.

Hell, even with a regular Chaplain you save 70 points in exchange for the S8+ wound buffer (you'll still hit harder). 70Pts is what a MM/HF Speeder costs.

Beerfart hahahahaha awesome report, just awesome.

EDIT: You lost 1.5 Oblits... your army sucks!!!!!

My sergeants have power fists.

G

Got in a game versus lash spam... Will post batrep tomorrow... Tough game!

G

We can't wait.

Green Blow Fly wrote:If I was playing nob bikes versus vindis I would combo the chinese fire drill plus turbo boost. One turn shooting max with minimal number under template then power klaw to AV10. That is an equation for disaster.

I chose LRC for many reasons. One template that needs PotMS and brings the vehicle into charge range is not my style but maybe milaege varies for other Rambos out there.

G

was this for me?

I can assume it was since you are talking about vindicators. My list is having NO problems beating nob bikers, either when they charge the land raiders or when they charge the vindis. But I was talking about your choice of land raider, not nob bikers...

As to your "being in charge range" comment. You are going to be in charge range against nob bikers period. Who cares if you are in charge range if you moved cruising speed? Let people charge you and need 6s to hit. Its an assault vehicle. Are you hanging back and firing bolters? Really?

I'm trying to be constructive here and open discussion with you about this list. But you are so dismissive of things you don't want to hear, I'm done with this thread... your list needs serious work... and you just aren't interested in discussing it.

I was pointing out why I don't consider vindis that big a threat to nob bikers. Even if they do hit on 6+ with 4-6 power klaws per squad they will probably still wax the tanks.

G

Hey Beerfart I was wondering if you would be up for a game on Vassal. You seem to think you are good.

G

okay so finally a rematch versus lash prince. Same opponent as the last time and he is looking to get his revenge finally. His list:

2x Lash Prince/wings
3x 3x Oblit
4x 6x PM/2x melta, fist - rhino

Mission was kill points again with the split table setup. I won the roll to go first and setup with my rhinos rolling in behind the LRCs and crowding his DZ. My opponent sets up like a puss hugging his table edge.

First turn the LRCs both roll into his line with all termies disembarking along with HQ. Two of three Oblit units and one lash prince can be combi charged. PotMS on donkey cannons vap the other prince.

TBC

G

Like I said, you need a librarian or the SM list is not competitive with armies like lash, daemons etc.

Also Vulkan would have likely been with the tac marines and would have done some good damage to the oblits.

Pete

Green Blow Fly wrote:okay so finally a rematch versus lash prince. Same opponent as the last time and he is looking to get his revenge finally. His list:

2x Lash Prince/wings
3x 3x Oblit
4x 6x PM/2x melta, fist - rhino

Mission was kill points again with the split table setup. I won the roll to go first and setup with my rhinos rolling in behind the LRCs and crowding his DZ. My opponent sets up like a puss hugging his table edge.

First turn the LRCs both roll into his line with all termies disembarking along with HQ. Two of three Oblit units and one lash prince can be combi charged. PotMS on donkey cannons vap the other prince.

TBC

G

Your pants are on fire sir. At least 24 inches in between you and your enemy for pitched battle Land raider moves 12, get out 2, assault 6 thats 20 inches. How you assaulting him first turn unless he moved up especially if you say he is hugging his edge there would be more than 24 inches.

Green Blow Fly wrote:okay so finally a rematch versus lash prince. Same opponent as the last time and he is looking to get his revenge finally. His list:

2x Lash Prince/wings
3x 3x Oblit
4x 6x PM/2x melta, fist - rhino

Mission was kill points again with the split table setup. I won the roll to go first and setup with my rhinos rolling in behind the LRCs and crowding his DZ. My opponent sets up like a puss hugging his table edge.

First turn the LRCs both roll into his line with all termies disembarking along with HQ. Two of three Oblit units and one lash prince can be combi charged. PotMS on donkey cannons vap the other prince.

TBC

G

I think he means split table is -> dawn of war, with 18 inches in between
And "donkey cannons" is some way of saying "assault cannons"

However in dawn of war, you set up a max of 18 inches away from your opponent if you won the roll to go first (at the 50 yard line essentially) and you only set up 1 hq and 2 troops. That means 0 LRC's start on the board, and will have to trundle across the entire board, if he's on his edge, in order to do what you said. Also, if it is dawn of war, he'd only have 1 DP and 2 troop selections on the board, not his oblits or anything else, until they walk on in his turn.

Unless of course split table meant pitched battle, in that case, Avariel called you out correctly in saying that you couldn't possibly achieve a first turn charge on turn 1 from land raiders in the pitched battle scenario.

And 2 "Donkey cannons" killing 1 prince?

Here's the math on 2 assault cannons versus 1 prince:

8 shots, 6 hit, 7 after twin linked.

7 Hits, 4 wounds, 1 of which is probably a rend.

The rend causes .667 wounds (he gets his 5+ save)
The other 3 wounds he gets a 3+ save on, taking 1

Total wounds from two twinlinked assault cannons = 1.667, or realistically, 1-2 wounds.

Beerfart wrote a better batrep, more realistic too

There were forward members of units in the first rank off the table edge. One of the princes could not table hug where he deployed. I forced him to pick the side with some impassable terrain along some of the edge. I should have said hugging the table as much as possible... of course the haters will just keep hating.

G

Avariel wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:okay so finally a rematch versus lash prince. Same opponent as the last time and he is looking to get his revenge finally. His list:

2x Lash Prince/wings
3x 3x Oblit
4x 6x PM/2x melta, fist - rhino

Mission was kill points again with the split table setup. I won the roll to go first and setup with my rhinos rolling in behind the LRCs and crowding his DZ. My opponent sets up like a puss hugging his table edge.

First turn the LRCs both roll into his line with all termies disembarking along with HQ. Two of three Oblit units and one lash prince can be combi charged. PotMS on donkey cannons vap the other prince.

TBC

G

Your pants are on fire sir. At least 24 inches in between you and your enemy for pitched battle Land raider moves 12, get out 2, assault 6 thats 20 inches. How you assaulting him first turn unless he moved up especially if you say he is hugging his edge there would be more than 24 inches.

But regardless its impossible for you to ever be closer than 24 inches to him in pitched battle, or 18 inches in dawn of war

24 inches is too far for a LRC assault.

18 inches in this scenario your LRC's can't start on the board and trundle on from 42 inches away.

Space marines cannot, ever, ever, perform a first turn charge unless they use some oddity with shrike I'm not thinking of or your opponent sets up infiltrators closer to you somehow.

Edit: And liars will keep on lying.

Dang you really are a dim wit. Some of his units had models in my charge arc.

G

Thats impossible, for the above regions.

You went first. He hasn't moved yet. He has to, by the rules be AT LEAST 18 inches away in dawn of war (making it impossible for your LRC's to even be on the board) or AT LEAST 24 inches away.

With every, every model. Nothing of his army, is within 24 inches, of your army. Its an impossibility, unless you cheated and set up to close, or did what we here call a "stewie shuffle" where you move the LRC front to back, gaining an extra tank length on your move (also illegal).

There is no legal way, none, zero, zilch, any one of his models was closer than 24 inches to you at the start of your turn.

LRC moves MAXIMUM 12 inches. Then the terminators get out within TWO INCHES of the transport and have a SIX inch charge range.

12 + 2 + 6 = 20.

You're 4 inches short.

So take your pick: You're a cheater, or You're a liar.

I'll also accept C: All of the above.

Nice insult though, backpedaling after you make up yet another batrep and then insulting people who call you on it.

But no, I'm the dimwit, I know, my apologies.

Everyones knows that targetawg is a flunky of Stelek. Time to hit the IGNORE button again.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Everyones knows that targetawg is a flunky of Stelek. Time to hit the IGNORE button again.

G

1) I've never met stelek in my life.
2) I've been in like...2 threads involving him, and only a member of Dakka for a few months.
3) He lives somewhere in the Mid-west or west coast I think. I'm in eastern Pennsylvania.
4) Instead of acknowledging that you're a GBL (great big liar) you just ignore.

This calls for a roflcopter...

lol all this Stelek crap... he's gone and it won't go away. Seems like a supremely stupid bit of babbling to me.

Also, targetawg is right on this one I think, there isn't any way those LRCs could make it across the board like that for a turn 1 charge. I would be more than happy to admit I'm wrong if you can disprove this.

I like this list idea and I want it to work, thats why I keep posting in this thread. I'm still a bit skeptical, but I see potential in the basic design of the list.

I will read the rulebook tonight and see if we made any mistakes in the deployment.

G

Caffran

Here is the answer from Clay Williams, a judge for GW GTs:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/227292.page#519759

The deployment was completely legal. Either targetawg is very confused or he trying his best to mislead people in this thread. That is my 2c.

G

This whole thread is an April fools joke in January. Don't take it seriously.

Dawn of War, the deployment type that splits the table in half, only allows you to start with 1 HQ choice and 2 Troops Choices.

This being the case, your terminators, your landraiders and one of your HQ choices could not be deployed at the beginning of the game, they would have had to come on from reserve and been on the other side of the table.

So you (and your opponent if one did indeed exist) both deployed illegally.

So actually targetawg is spot on and you are tying to mislead people.

Read the rules. Its all there in the book. It seems that you make a big mistake like this all to often.

We did not play DoW. If we had I would have started everything in reserve and moved on turn 1. It pays to know your trigonometry!

G

Haha, pretending you know things...good one.

Its like pretending you know the 3 deployment types. That ones cracks me up.

Looks like your either a liar or a cheat or both!

Time to hit the ignore button!

1) How about helping us out to tell us what you did play.
2) The thread you linked, people are telling you you're wrong and it was illegal.

You said not DOW, so I'm assuming when you said split table, you meant pitched battle.

That still presents the 24 inch problem.

Now if somehow you're saying you did spearhead now...

Trigometry wouldn't matter, as you stated he deployed against his table edge.

But if it did.

The center of the table is your point. 12 inches from it horizontally and verticcally represents the extent of the "bubble" in the center of the table you can't deploy in. This is a right triangle.

A right triangle goes with your good friend, the pythagorean theorem, a2+b2=c2

Meaning 12 squared, plus 12 squared, equals the length of the hypotenuse squared (this is the shorted possible distance in between the two of you).

c in this instance, equals 17.

However, this is 17 inches point to point. There is no possible way to fit a land raider (or even a standard base) with its edge exactly on that point, due to the 90 degree angle formed by the bubble/the halfway line of the board.

Of course, this is all a moot point, as you stated he deployed on his table edge "like a puss" (you're incredibly charming). In order for this to work he would have had to a model at the closest point towards you, the absolute closest, as the land raiders width pushes him backwards roughly 2-3 inches from this 17 inch line, and your MAXIMUM range is 20 inches.

This would also make a multiple assault as you stated against 3 units (two oblit units and a daemon prince) completely ludicrous as well, as theres no way you could have range.

You done yet?

Actually the closest you can get in Spearhead deployment is ~17 inches.

If a model with a one inch base is placed directly on the table edge at the short center line and an opposing model is placed along the long center line 12" away from the center point then this is still only 25" of space.

Granted that this was the scenario it is quite possible that Green was able to assault first turn given his opponent did not have every model directly touching the table edge.

It is possible to get into assault on the first turn in spearhead.

*edit - beat to it

*edit again - there is no min distance that models have to be apart in Spearhead deployment.

His opponent would have not only had to not have all of his models not touching his table edge, he'd have to have them at he EXACT closest point to GBF.

The exact. closest. point.

Also, a multi assault is completely impossible, for the above reasons.

I wont get into the semantics of the discussion. I am only trying to help by providing facts.

Thanks Clay. I really appreciate your posting here.

Like I said Clay is an official judge for the GW GT circuit and has years of experience under his belt.

G

Donkey Cannon is pretty funny if you you playing Monty Python's Warhammer where the British Donkey Cannon is the best weapon in the game followed by the Fench Cow Catapult.

I actually get how you get a Donkey Cannon if you abbreviate Assault Cannon with the first 3 letters it equals donkey. So Donkey Cannon.

So what deployment was it? I interpreted split table to be pitched battle because it couldn't be dawn of war because your land raiders and his oblits start off the table and walk on so its not possible for dawn of war as stated above either.

Everything started on the table for both armies. After reading the rules I do see we both made a mistake in regards to the deployment. Oh well... looks like I made an arse out of myself.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Hey Beerfart I was wondering if you would be up for a game on Vassal. You seem to think you are good.

G

I dont have the time or inclination to teach a 13 YO how to play 40k....unless he's like my 6 YO and knows how to listen. 7 pages rife with people telling you how ludicrous this army is tells me you dont know how. Besides, with you challenging every single person who tells you that your army is crap and that you've got no idea how 40k works...I'm sure your card is full.

Your batreps are either...

1) BS

or

2)against clueless people who have no idea how to use the tools availiable to them.

...neither of which are any proof of the viability of this army against Nobs or Lash.

"lash army deploys second and is within charge range of terminators in LR's" Regardless of what deployment, rules, objective, time of day, scent of air freshener, your opponent made a completely STUPID mistake if this really happened. (which I doubt)

How does this prove that your ridiculous list can compete against a competant Lash player?

Your discussion is the worst form of tripe and you have ZERO capability to listen to what people are telling you. This entire thread is you posting ridiculously stupid batreps and defending your list on the basis of their performance in those particular situations.

This thread is indeed a joke.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Everything started on the table for both armies. After reading the rules I do see we both made a mistake in regards to the deployment. Oh well... looks like I made an arse out of myself.

G

YOU? NOOOO, not GBF.

A terribly elementary rule....and you cannot even get that right....and you still argue.

(apparently neither you nor your opponent have the slightest incling what "competetive play" really is. You need to both go and read the rulebook a bit before you go on any more about how 'good' this army is)

Edit: Left the post so it doesn't look like I nefariously deleted a mean post, but it can be ignored, as GBF already man'd up and admitted that he made a mistake, so theres no more point in dragging out how the bat rep wasn't possible.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Thanks Clay. I really appreciate your posting here.

Like I said Clay is an official judge for the GW GT circuit and has years of experience under his belt.

G

I don't see what difference this makes. He's dead right in what he says, he said 17 inches, if you check my post, its the exact number I posted.

Clay's response (although helpful and fully right) still has nothing to do with the fact that you're completely wrong.

1) You stated you played the split table scenario, now you're saying you played spearhead.
2) Even in spearhead a land raider at best can be a bit over 17 inches from the absolute closest point in your opponents deployment zone. You stated he deployed "like a puss" in his corner, against his edge.
3) So, in order for you to make your charge (20 inch maximum), he'd of had to of been within 2-3 inches of the exact closest point towards you, not on his board edge as you stated.
4) It would be completely impossible to hit multiple units given this tight window of a charge narrowly, narrowly, making it in, considering oblit's are on 40mm bases and DP's are on monstrous creature bases, they simply couldn't even come close to fitting.

The point is no matter how much you sidestep the issue, your batrep is either A) Fake or B) you cheated

To evaluate this, lets examine the reasoning

1) Why would you fake a batrep?

Answer: Possibly to impress people on the internet with your list

2) Why would you cheat, and then post proof of it on the internet?

Answer: You wouldn't

You might as well just admit it at this point, every one of your bat reps have been like this, and people have called you on all of them over the weeks. I'm not even quite sure why you're so concerned with people thinking your list is good or that you're a good player, I mean, we're on the internet after all, you'll never meet any of us in all likelihood.

And if you'll note, I didn't have to resort to name calling or anything of the sort in this, as I'm attempting to keep it civil.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Hey Beerfart I was wondering if you would be up for a game on Vassal. You seem to think you are good.

G

Beerfart wrote:I
Superfails and Terminators both move forward 10", he tells me I'm a coward for not charging them.

Green Blow Fly wrote:My opponent sets up like a puss hugging his table edge.

Apparently, we've already played....read my battle report. I stomped you.

I hope you feel better now.



G

targetawg wrote:

1) You stated you played the split table scenario, now you're saying you played spearhead.
.

I dont think he OR his opponent know what scenario they were playing....much less what game.

Clay thank you for making the only useful post in about the last 2 pages of this thread (there may be one or two others that I forgot, but the number is very small).

I have re-arrived at this post late
and have decided not to plow throught 4 more pages of hate.
So let me present my ideas to you
and maybe provide some insight too.
It starts with a dropping of lysander's Fist
and so begins the improvement of this list
With 200 points you still need a leader
but perhaps Cassius will be the new nob eater
I need not be cassius, it doesn't really matter
But a chaplain is needed, to enhance the blood splatter
The re-roll of hits on the charge is most handy
and with the extra points you may find it most dandy
to allocate the points in ways that may please
and give you more options, more victories to seize...


Thank you

Some of us were thinking about dropping Marneus in exchange for Tiggy... Still expensive but frees up some points.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Some of us were thinking about dropping Marneus in exchange for Tiggy... Still expensive but frees up some points.

G

But doesn't Marneus really help you? and what would you do with 20 points?

I need Lysander to insta kill war bosses on bikes. Tiggy seems the most useful since has access to all the psychic powers and there is a decent possibility he could force a warboss as well. He also frees up enough points to kit each LRC with a multi-melta.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I need Lysander to insta kill war bosses on bikes. Tiggy seems the most useful since has access to all the psychic powers and there is a decent possibility he could force a warboss as well. He also frees up enough points to kit each LRC with a multi-melta.

G

Ahh I'm stupid.... (not being sarcastic here) didn't see the lack of MM on the raiders.

I still like the chaplain idea, as a charging unit of those guys with a chappy essentially doubles the amount of attacks that they have, however, I doo see the merits of Tigger.

Any other sweeping changes that you were thinking of?

Lysander helps a lot more than Marneus.

If you want to free up more points you can run a normal Epistolary Librarian instead of Tiggy. Obviously, Tiggy is supreme versatility compared to a vanilla Librarian, but you will probably be using the same 2-3 spells over and over (I'd go with Gate of Infinity and Null Zone most likely).

A question about Nob biker units... are they typically led by IC's

Never played against orks, and sure haven't even seen a nob biker army so forgive my ignorance

Shrike78 wrote:A question about Nob biker units... are they typically led by IC's

Never played against orks, and sure haven't even seen a nob biker army so forgive my ignorance

Yes, in order for a unit of Nob Bikes to be taken as troops, a Warboos with a Bike must be taken. Typical Nob Bikes armies run 2x biker bosses that join 2x massive units of nob bikes with unique equipment on each nob to abuse the new wound allocation rules (ie so each Nob can take a wound before you have to remove a model, which mean you need to do 10 (or 12 if you count the boss too) wounds before you reduce the unit's combat effectiveness)

Nob bikers are typically led by mounted warbosses... so yes Lysander is crucial for the purpose of killing warbosses since is hammer is augmented to S10.

There has also been the suggestion to field Vulkan for the master crafted hammers... One problem with this one is it's already been done to death.

If I make a change it will be to include a Librarian. I was actually going to use Tiggy in the last game but forgot to bring an appropriate model. If he can use up to two or three psychic powers per player turn there is a good chance he could force weapon the warboss with the S6 spell... and the fact that his force weapon is master crafted.

G

AH-HA!!!!!

Got it... I think

take calgar, replace Lysander with Chaplain, replace terminator squads with honor guard squads, and pimp out the champion.

This gives you 3 guys who is very good at taking out ICs namely clagar and the 2 champion guys.

The problem, of course is that they are less durable, and aren't as killy (which I'm not underestimating) but, they can possibly deal with your biker bosses, and the one with the banner will kill lots.

This is probably a bad idea though...

I need the hammers to kill the nobs. Relic blades woundd nobs on 3+ and don't insta kill either.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I need the hammers to kill the jobs. Relic blades wiu d nobs on 3+ and don't insta kill either.

G

how many wounds on them there nobs?

2 apiece.

G

I stand corrected... but I stick by my chaplain guns, I'm not sure that the benefits of tigger, or a libby, outweigh the significant advantages of the chaplain in addition to the points you will save (cough) 125 (cough)

eh I'd run Vulkan before I ran and Chappy... Vulkan mastercrafts every thunderhammer in the army.

Tiggy provides some other mode of movement that isn't god awful slow if the LRCs die, as well as great utility from the other psychic powers (null zone, a couple of assorted situationally good ranged attacks, etc).

Shrike - man that was awesome.

Ill still dont get how donkey cannon was desrived.. I looked real hard but nothing.

A libarian in terminator armor (although this is a slight one trick pony, And its fair-enough tiggy cant do this) can gate in and then use vortex of doom (Hes got the relentless USR from the termie armor) for a large amount of str10 death.

Do I assume even a epistolary can only choose two psychic powers? Question would then be, are gate & vortex (or gate & MotA) good enough for what you want to do aswell as saving you X points or does the everything that tiggy can do (But no relentless!) provide better support points wise.

Actually master crafting the hammers is more beneficial if a combat goes more than one turn... which can indeed happen. The problem with the chaplain is he good for one charge and is then insta killed in close combat by a power klaw. The other characters don't have to charge to derive their benefits necessarily... Vulkan or librarian in general.

G

Donkey cannon was derived from an abbreviated version of ass(ault) cannon.

I like Tiggy since he actually has a good chance of killing a warboss with his force weapon since it is master crafted and he can boost his strength to S6. If he charges the squad then careful positioning can keep him out of base contact with the nobs. I think Tiggy also makes the army better balanced overall against all comers.

G

Beerfart,

It is clear that you don't care for GBF and you think that this thread isn't of any value. You have made your point that you believe GBF isn't playing against quality opponents and/or he doesn't know the rules.

However, this is his army list thread and there are some people who are willing to give him advice and/or discus his list and games.

If this is something that bothers you, please refrain from posting further in this thread, or even go as far as to put GBF on your ignore list.

However constantly hurling insults at the guy in his own thread is unacceptable.


And GBF, I'm leaving this thread open for you because you're using it kind of like a blog, but you need to refrain from firing back at anyone who insults you if you want it to remain open. Put Beerfart on 'ignore' if it will help.

Thank you Yak. I will follow your advice.

G

this forum is turning into a chat room not somthing about an army list

So what do you think of the list as it stands now?

G

Edit the OP so people can have a look?

LOL

I have been thinking seriously about dropping both Lysander and Calgar in exchange for Vulkan and a generic Epistolary class Librarian. The Librarian would be armed with null zone and one other psychic power. This would free up some points. As deFl0 has stated Vulkan master crafts the thunder hammer and the null zone would shut down the nobs' invulnerable saves. The psychic hood would be a great counter versus lash spam. I'm not sure where the extra points would go... suggestions are welcome.

G

Five terminators charging out of a landraider equals 15 attacks... 7 hit then add in 4 more for the rerolls... 11 S8 attacks, assume nine wound. The nobs make 3 saves then fail 2 of these due to the null zone. So that is 8 unsaved wounds, one of which is assigned to the warboss... so 7 dead nobs.

The nobs and warboss strike back with around 19 power klaw attacks... 12 hit and 10 wound... the terminators fail 3 saves and win combat by 4 wounds, so the nobs test on a leadership of 6 with the reroll. There is a decent chance they will break and then cannot regroup. If they do pass their leadership test then there is left the warboss and two nobs left versus two assault terminators. The terminators have four attacks, three of which hit and kill the two nobs plus the warboss takes another wound. The warboss and nobs have 10 attacks, assume 6 hit and five wound. Probably both terminators die.

Going on this math hammer I would first add another terminator to both squads to make sure they win combat and most likely break the warboss the first turn.

G

Without Calgar and Lysander and adding Vulkan and a Librarian, you have 1690 Pts, and you could add 2 Land Speeders with Multi Melta/Heavy Flamer and Multi Meltas on the LRC for a grand total of 1850 Pts.

targetawg wrote:
LRC moves MAXIMUM 12 inches. Then the terminators get out within TWO INCHES of the transport and have a SIX inch charge range.
12 + 2 + 6 = 20.

Just a minor edit that in NO way changes the outcome of your arguement...

The effective assualt range of terminators disembarking from a LRC is 21.5.

This is because the models base does not have to be completely within the 2" radius of the access point. Instead the base just needs to be touching the 2" radius. Check out the Disembarking Figure in the BRB page 67. The caption says that "all of the space marines have disembarked within 2" of the transport's access point". Looking at the figure, though, you can see that the space marine's (the one holding the missle launcher) base is not wholly inside the 2" radius, but instead the edge of the base is just touching the 2" radius. A similar figure is presented for embarking on page 66. Therefore, when diembarking, only one edge of the base must be within 2" for the deployment to be legal.

Therefore the effective assault range is 21.5" for the termintators: 12" for the LRC movement, 2" disembark from one edge of terminators base, 1.5" for the terminator base itself, and 6" for charging.

Small clarification but an important one nevertheless.

My favorite version of the landspeeder is the Typhoon with either a multi melta or heavy bolter.

G