So current rumour is Chris Nolen has started to pen ideas for the third film, hopefully this is the case as he's not be forthcoming on if he would even do a third up until now. However other actors in the current franchise and execs have let slip in interviews and off the record that the talk is the main villian will be Riddler and Johnny Depp and another actor (Not Murphey!!) are being considered, along with Angelina Jolie as Catwoman.

However after finally getting to watch Dark Knight a couple of days ago (and loving it) I had to ponder which Batman villians would I really like to see in the films. So I thought why not start a thread on it here on Dakka and see what folks think.


As to myself, hmm, Killer Croc could be interesting, or Bane done properly although as this is supposed to be a young Batman maybe Bane wouldn't fit. I don't mind the idea of the Riddler though, but I would really like to see a new villian again, one not covered in the previous four films to this franchise.

I'd like 2 major villains(Riddler and Penguin in his role as crime boss/man about town) and maybe a few other villains as hired goons(Killer Croc, Dead Shot, Dr. Langstrom hired/forced to develop a serum for new "super goons" and turning into Man-Bat, etc.).

Failing that, I just want to see some metahuman villains like Croc, Clayface, and Killer Moth, but I know they're trying to do a "this could possibly happen in reality" Batman series.

But then, I want the same out of Superman movies, not more Lex Luthor movies.

i'd personally like them to "continue" down this story arc... begin the movie with an unseen mentor, training a young female in the ways of crime.. the birth of harley quin.... then somewhere, you could throw in the Mad Hatter, or Riddler.

at least, id like to see that.. ive never been a fan of catwoman, or any of the portrayals of her, and while penguin is possible, i cant see how theyd get someone with the rotund factor working in their favor well enough to do the part.

Aye Nolan has been reported as saying he can't see how he'd fit Penguin into his vision of the series.

I'd also love to see Harley, but that seems less likely now with Heath's death as you couldn't really do her character justice without Joker.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Aye Nolan has been reported as saying he can't see how he'd fit Penguin into his vision of the series.

I find that odd, considering how important crime bosses are to his vision of Batman(every movie has involved the mob/organized crime in some way), and that's all the Penguin is.

Hmm...

Harley doesn't really work without the Joker, and you can't really replace Heath.

Freeze, Ivy, Croc, Clayface and the others are too supernatural for the way the other two movies have gone.

Penguin would be hard to do as a real villain. He would work as a side character.

I guess I'd like to see Bane, but see him portrayed as an intelligent adversary, and not another stupid but strong henchman.

Well, Nolan said that he doesn't want anyone else to play the Joker in his movies, so we need new villians. Which is quite a shame; I just watched Dark Knight again two days ago and one of my favourite scenes is still the one where Joker hangs upside down and explains to Batman how they are made for each other. This really was a brilliant set-up for future installments, but it was not meant to be

I think to find the next villain, we need to think about what the next movie could be "about". In Begins, the main theme of the movie was fear and in the Dark Knight it was more about Batman's rage and chaos as opposite to a normal society.

Personally, altough Nolan mentioned he wasn't interested in the topic, I think that after the events of Dark Knight, it would seem possible that we get more "copycats". Harley Quinn is a possibility, but wouldn't it also make sense at some point that, since Batman is hunted by the law, a new vigilante shows up in town, maybe some incarnation of Nightwing, and Batman decides to take him under his wing? Or, a new vigilante who takes it too far and Batman has to stop him. Altough I can't think of anyone in the Rogue's Gallery who would fit that description.

Let's see, who's left...
- Bane is one of my favourite Bat-villians and I would love to see someone get him right on the big screen, so we can all forget the abomination that was the 2nd. Schumacher movie. The most interesting part about Bane is not his strenght, but the brilliant mind behind it.
- Speaking of brilliant minds, the Riddler could work quite well, as a new "nemesis" for Batman, but more on a mental level. On the other hand, the Joker couldn't "fight" Batman, so maybe he needs a "physical challange".
- which brings us to Killer Croc, but that may be a bit too over the top and probably not very interesting.
- considering the fact, that movies like this don't work without at least some sort of female lead, I thin Catwoman is a good idea. I loved what they did with her in the animated series and maybe after Rachel's death the Dark Knight might be more vulnurable than he thinks

btw. Nolan said to Arron Eckhart that Two-Face is dead. Just thought I should mention that.

Yeah my brother was telling me how Two face is going to be in the third film yesterday and I was thinking as I'd just watched Dark Knight the day before, but Two face looked 100% dead so was confused but did think well superhero tales have pulled things like that before.

Then looking on the net last night about snippets and rumour for the third film I saw that from Eckhart and chuckled. Haven't spoken to my brother yet though.

You better stay away from any internet romours at this point. I won't believe a thing about this movie until I hear it from Joblo.com or Superherohype.

Oh aye, my main discussion here is who we'd like to see, I don't trust anything this early.

I love Batman.

Well firstly I'd like to see him quickly mop up/take down one or two really minor villains- some of the escaped crazies from the first film. Someone kind of goofy yet still odd like the Ventriloquist, Doodlebug or the Cavalier.

For the main foe I think Deacon Blackfire could well work, ogre and the ape could be funny/horrible if done right, but overall I'd like to see Nolan and Co. have a crack with Prometheus who I'd love to see on the big screen. "Neural chaff" FTW !

I'd like to see the Mad Hatter, but I think that's a little unlikely. Black mask could be good.

The batman films have had strong themes so far, and I would like the third to have one as strong.
I think that the three strongest Batman villains are Bane, Joker and Rhas al Ghul. The first two were used brilliantly. Bane however requires a more established batman, and also a more established rogues gallery.
Of the classic villains I don't think many of them would work.
Penguin is too comical. Mr Freeze, Croc and Clayface are too over the top. Catwoman sucks. Harley Quinn sucks even more (seriously we do not need a lame ass joker clone after Ledger's joker). Mad Hatter has potential, but the most interesting and realistic portrayal of him is as a paedophile, and this is something I'm not sure I'd be comfortable watching. Minor villains like Zaz (can't remember how it's spelled but he's the dude who cuts scars into himself for his victims, mentioned in the first film) could work, but not easily.
I think the riddler is a terrible choice. Try and figure out a script that would make sense for it. It's impossible. He's like a weaker joker. No.
I reckon they'll have to suprise us. Come up with a new villain, or better an antagonist. A cop or detective who is hunting batman for the murders. Have Bats fight minor whackos along the way, build up the rogues gallery, but this is window dressing to the greater moral and intellectual struggle between bats and his pursuer, who could be a good person. I think that's the best route. It's not retreading old ground, it's not a weak or over the top idea and it is what Dark Knight leads up to- Batman as a hunted figure rather than an ambigous one.
There's precedent for using new media to introduce comic characters. Harley Quinn was not a comic character originally. I think Nolan's Batman is stronger than all but the best batman comics and he should feel confident enough to mess with it rather than sticking to people's expectations and doing weak adaptions.

I personaly think Riddler could be a perfect choice for the next Batman instalment,of course not the Jim Carrey/Frank Gorshin Riddler...but a sinister "Zodiac Killer" type Riddler,tuanting Batman with clues,daring him to stop him...that would be interesting.
Catwoman,meh,not a big fan ,Croc would be interesting to see.

The thing I don't like about the Riddler and the Mad Hatter is they both remind me too much of the Joker.

After all, a "riddler" and "joker" are practically the same thing, and the Mad Hatter is too "crazy clownish."

I don't think anyone like the Joker would be good in the third movie. For one, having too similar villains in a row is bad, for another no one's going to follow up the Joker, so it would come off as weaker.

I could still see either of them in a supporting role though.

I'm with Orkeosaurus, the 'wild card crazies' should sit out a movie for the same reasons

I think a Mr. Freeze would work if done with a callous emotionless madness
similar to Anton Chigurh from 'No Country for Old Men' (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0477348/)
which if you haven't seen it, do so

Anung Un Rama wrote:
Personally, altough Nolan mentioned he wasn't interested in the topic, I think that after the events of Dark Knight, it would seem possible that we get more "copycats". Harley Quinn is a possibility, but wouldn't it also make sense at some point that, since Batman is hunted by the law, a new vigilante shows up in town, maybe some incarnation of Nightwing, and Batman decides to take him under his wing? Or, a new vigilante who takes it too far and Batman has to stop him. Altough I can't think of anyone in the Rogue's Gallery who would fit that description.

I was thinking on this earlier, and was thinking I wonder if the current version of Huntress would fiit this bill, the one with the mafia daughter backstory. She clashed with batman intially as well, which would make an interesting character with the potential to come good later on if they so want.

... i don't care i just hope we don't get a Robin or BatGirl

I've read that Nolan and Bale have both said they will not do the movies if Robin is going to be in them

Anung Un Rama wrote:Or, a new vigilante who takes it too far and Batman has to stop him. Altough I can't think of anyone in the Rogue's Gallery who would fit that description.

The Reaper, or maybe better known as Phantasm, the watered down version of Reaper made for the animated movie.

Trouble is that both the Riddler and Joker are a bit too similar for my liking. Both embodying Chaos, Nihilism and Absurdism.

Mind you Nolan's vision has re-invented every single one of the villains for the better so it may be best to ignore your pre-conceived notions of the villains in terms of looks, mannerisms and motivation.

I have total confidence in Christopher Nolan and I'm confident that if asked for their dream castings before either of the 1st 2 movies had been announced, no one on the internet would have dreamt of suggesting Cillian Murphy or Heath Ledger and I haven't heard a word of crititsm against either.

The Joker was interesting because even after you take away all the crazier elements of the character, you still had someone that stood outside the boundaries of ordinary crime. He wasn't concerned with the mob's money and turf control, he was a force of nature, destruction and chaos. It was a really important part of The Dark Knight.

It's impossible to do anything similar with most of the rest of the rogue's gallery. To get a Nolan level of plausibility into most of the rogues gallery, they end up losing most of the stuff that made them different from ordinary criminals. You can make the Penguin a mob boss but then he'd be like the countless mob bosses Batman has been beating up for two movies now. That'd be horribly dull. What's Bane other than a guy who can beat up Batman but is also really smart. How do you write an interesting screenplay about that?

reds8n wrote: Well firstly I'd like to see him quickly mop up/take down one or two really minor villains- some of the escaped crazies from the first film. Someone kind of goofy yet still odd like the Ventriloquist, Doodlebug or the Cavalier.

For the main foe I think Deacon Blackfire could well work, ogre and the ape could be funny/horrible if done right, but overall I'd like to see Nolan and Co. have a crack with Prometheus who I'd love to see on the big screen. "Neural chaff" FTW !

Yeah, Deacon Blackfire is the guy I could see working. A cult leader offering protection for the city's homeless... it'd be hard for Batman to distinguish himself from Blackfire. Perhaps the difference would only be clear when Blackfire shows a willingness to kill, and sacrifice his own followers.

I figure they could play around with the idea of people following the Batman in an almost cult like fashion and contrats this with Deacon's mob. Maybe push him as offering some form of "religious" protection from the Batman. Like a cross between Blackfire and the CRime Doctor kind of thing. Then as you said compare and contrats the two schools of thought/practise. The added irony being Batman doesn't actualy wany anyone else following him or taking his path, especially with what happened to Dent

Plus Deacon Blackfire is a cool name which helps.

I think they need to go back to a 'sympathetic' villian. Rhas a Ghul (?) was a good choice. Clearly, he's the villian and antagonist - but he wasn't out stealing money or going for world domination - he was trying to clean things up (although, rather harshly). The Joker is just all over crazy. Two-Face was somewhat symathetic. Deacon could work, but I'd vote for Dr. Freeze. Freeze is more 'old school', a little quirky, and more recognizable. I wouldn't mind if they include a second villian, one with a more malicious intent. Maybe they're even involved with the creation of Freeze, and both Freeze and Batman are tracking them down. And this could be a major role or a cameo, but I think Catwoman could work. She breaks into Freeze's lab, Batman chases her, accident happens, Freeze is created.

Personally, I would have no problem with them recasting the Joker part and/or having some copycats of him show up in the third and/or later films.

being that this iteration of gotham city is a very dark one, i would definitely see the riddler as something like "Mr. Brooks" or zodiac... or Mad Hatter as someone like jack the ripper... have a guy who dresses in older fashioned clothing with top hat, a very psychotic, yet cold methodical killer..almost like a victorian version of Hannibal Lector


just doing a browse thru the DC comics webpage, and being that the second film had some scenes in hong kong/china.. you could bring on sin tzu

if you just wanted to piss of the tree hugger community, do poison ivy!! she could be quite the evil wench, perhaps bruce wayne chopped out her favorite tree grove?

also saw, for those who want another vigilante to be taken down: deadshot... guy starts off in the affluent lifestyle... then he starts disarming the criminals (by shooting their weapons out of their hands)... but all these "good deeds" are really a ruse to take over the crime syndicates

Da Boss wrote:I think the riddler is a terrible choice. Try and figure out a script that would make sense for it. It's impossible. He's like a weaker joker. No.
I reckon they'll have to suprise us. Come up with a new villain, or better an antagonist. A cop or detective who is hunting batman for the murders. Have Bats fight minor whackos along the way, build up the rogues gallery, but this is window dressing to the greater moral and intellectual struggle between bats and his pursuer, who could be a good person. I think that's the best route. It's not retreading old ground, it's not a weak or over the top idea and it is what Dark Knight leads up to- Batman as a hunted figure rather than an ambigous one.
There's precedent for using new media to introduce comic characters. Harley Quinn was not a comic character originally. I think Nolan's Batman is stronger than all but the best batman comics and he should feel confident enough to mess with it rather than sticking to people's expectations and doing weak adaptions.

Actually, I think the Riddler could seve as a good contrast to the Joker. The Joker wasn't about makijng plans, but about turning people's plans against them. The Riddler could be a true criminal mastermind, determined to challange Batman and the police, proving that he's superior to them.
If you think of Joker's quote

this city deserves a better class of criminal

as well as the impact he had on Gotham, I think it would fit just fine that another "costumed nutjob" shows up, trying to be a new "supervillian".

It would be nice to have again, a more focused view on the similiarities between Batman and his enemies. Mr- Freeze for example, also lost someone he loved, but choose a life dedicated to revenge and crime.

I was just thinking. Why does the Penguin have to be rotund? Why can't he be an urbane upper-class gentleman that is secretly a mob boss? A James Bond type type of villian. Introduce a new type of Penguin that is the same as Bruce Wayne but is instead evil. Some one who looks good in a tux. I know this sounds a lot like Lex Luthor but it'd be interesting.

I don't know which character he'd play but as far as sympathetic villians go I really want to see Steve Buscemi. You want a sympathetic serial killer or arch-villian, he's the way to go.

Well, there's always Maxie Zeus and Firefly to play up the tech villains, also.

I still stay Deadshot could work, maybe set up the Suicide Squad and Amanda Waller for future installments. Batman vs the American government rogues/President Lex was always a good time.

I think that the Batman Franchise is entirely out of villains that can be completely realistically portrayed. That is entirely too bad, because that's exactly the point behind Nolan's series. You have to suspend your disbelief, but only a little bit. Everything could happen. Almost. And everything that couldn't is only due to high technology.

It's really too bad that they wasted Two Face's potential like that. He could've fit into a whole other movie. Scarecrow was an amazing, obscure choice for the first movie, Raz Al-Ghul was at least fitting, and nothing will ever top Ledger's perfomance as The Joker.

There are certain Batman villains that could never work. Killer Croc, Man-bat, Clayface, and basically any other anthromorphic freak of nature come to mind. Mr. Freeze is just a little too cheesy for Nolan's world. And I couldn't see The Riddler working out all that well (Though it would be interesting to see what Depp could come up with).

I do think that Helena Bonham-Carter (Fight Club, Sweeney Todd) would make an excellent and believable Harley Quinn, though without Ledger's Joker, it would fall flat.

Platuan4th wroteWell, there's always Maxie Zeus and Firefly to play up the tech villains, also.

Zeus is waaayyy too over-the-top for Nolan's Batman.

One could argue they should come up with a completely new villain, or just stop before it gets lame.

Let's be honest, this is what we all want to see:

Hot babe
Tight and/or skimpy costume

Catwoman, Poison Ivy, Batgirl, new villian - who cares?

Frazzled wrote:One could argue they should come up with a completely new villain, or just stop before it gets lame.

that is a decent idea, however many fans out there would be appalled by the thought. Also, one must consider that if each of the nolan batman films all have a distinct moral message, or moral theme to the hero/villain relationship... what sort of theme should be next, and how "original" an enemy can you create?? i kinda see them doing a staple villain, such as harley, or hatter, or deadshot, or anyone else really.. but completely changing some major aspect of them as never really seen before in the books and previous works. perhaps harley quin was merely an "innocent bystander" to a joker crime, and rather than be completely debilitated by the traumatic experience, something snaps, and she tries to take up His cause?? really, the only thing you would really need to introduce her, is a flashback to perhaps the bank scene....and the clown masks, so this way, you know it was a Joker attack, but you dont need to see joker.


really, nolan has already made some major changes to the way many people think about previous characters... i mean, leading up to the release of dark knight, every one i know was supremely sceptical about ledger playing joker... perhaps there could be a similar result by using another villain, with another gifted actor...

yeah,
I'd like to see hush or one of the clayface... probably clayface#3... or a poison ivy...
the only problem with hush, is that he's no where to be seen in the yound bruce wayne scenes.
Clayface#3 could be given a cool spin with bio terrorism... but his problem is he's tied into the clayface storyline with clayface 1,2,3,4 & 5

If they do a staple villan, I agree the Penguin fits into the 'Bringing down the mob, cleaning the streets' story that nolan has going.
But I think the riddler is probably the best option. and disagree with the notion that the riddler is a poor mans joker... that's just stupid. With the darker gotham bat world that nolan is creating, a twisted mind like the riddlers could be made more dark and perverted... If they steer him away from joker crazy, and more toward smart crazy!
I was chatting about this with my brother a few days ago and we both thought/agreed that Jim Carry might be a good choice of actor, giving him a second crack at it, to atone for his sins!

Panic...

Buscemi as the riddler

focusedfire wrote:Buscemi as the riddler

Yes!!!, I could definatly see Buscemi as a dark,driven,psychotic Riddler,IMO he would be a much better choice than Depp any day.

Jessica Alba as.... who cares just toss her in.

The problem with Mr. Freeze is getting his ice abilities to seem like a legitimate weapon and not just a gimmick.

The Riddler isn't a watered down version of the Joker, but he's still too similar, in my opinion, to be the main villain.
How is the Riddler going to top Heath in the crazy nihilist department? The Joker already had plenty of intricate plans as well.

I think the Riddler would be better as a side villain; maybe have him playing both sides, giving both sides clues through the riddles.

Hell, I think it'd be cool if he wasn't even in it. Just the riddles themselves. It would be in sharp contrast to the hands on approach of the Joker.

The two main villains have so far been:
Cruel vigilante who thinks his justice is the only way.
Nihilistic psychopath who only wants to see destruction.

Side villains have been:
Mob boss who loves his power.
Crazy psychiatrist who loves causing fear.
Good person driven completely insane.

The next villains have to be different from these.

I really think that there are still a few Plausable villians to consider:
-Harliquin [she falls in love with the joker while hes in arkum asylem, and joins him]
-Catwomen
-The Riddler
-Kiler-Moth [ i dont know much about him but he takes the form of a man wearing a moth suit with gadgets like batman]
-Pengiun
-The Mad-Hatter, like the Riddler/Joker but takes after the alice in woderland mad hatter
-Posion Ivy

In hindsight it's actualy a shame that Two-Face played such a large part in the Dark knight,would have been much better to have left Dent Deformed and hospitalized at the end of Dark Knight,then have Two-Face as the main villian in the next movie.

Dent could still be alive (knocked out) ... i mean batman also fell from that hight and he was able to run away ok

Echo ... double post

How about Paul Giamatti or Billy Crystal as penguin.


Little factoid: Robin williams was originally up for the part of Joker in Tim Burtons version.


HHMMM Robin Williams as Penguin?

A few more ideas...

I think that Bane could fit into the hyper-realism of Nolan's world, if they humanized him a little bit (and got rid of his Spawn-meets-Wrestling costume). I'm sure that they could get the audience to be more sympathetic to Bane if, say, he was a soldier experiencing negative side-effects from an experimental Wayne Enterprises combat drug, out for revenge on Bruce Wayne himself (Perhaps after spending time court martialed for some reason). Sure, it's not extremely realistic, per se, but Nolan's gonna have to branch out somehow (he's basically out of totally real options), and I think Bane's the best candidate. Since he's not exactly a well-known character, he'd probably have to be a side-villain to appease the masses. Nolan could probably throw everyone off by casting Michael Clarke Duncan (The Green Mile) in this role, as he would need to be someone absolutely massive, and I think that would be a pleasant surprise to most people.

Wrath could probably work well. It would be a throwback to how everyone was dressing up as Batman in the Dark Knight, but with opposite intent. Perhaps he would have some reason to give Batman a bad name, and so he goes around murdering police officers disguised as him. The whole arc of Gordon killing his parents would probably be interesting as well. Though I don't like Wrath for a new movie nearly as well as I would like to see Bane (The whole bizzaro-batman feel he has going on is kind of strange), he could still probably work out better than half of the other batman villains.

I like Orkeosaurus' idea of not even being able to see the Riddler within a movie. That would make for quite the awesome villain.

I really think the best two for the next movie would be the penguin and catwomen, as they are both dark characters and have realistic back stories that can be toned up or down depending on the mood of the film

yeah,
I think it will have to be a main well know character to sell the movie... and prevent fail...
I thought they jumped to the joker to quick they should have saved him for later.. do a few more b list (scarecrow level) characters first?
the general public will just be left wondering who the hell is bane is? after he's fought the joker, why isn't it the penguin or the riddler bothering batman next?

Would it be unreasonable to cast another actor as the joker? explain his changed appearance with a toxic spill accident/ hits himself in the face with some acid...
or have bit parts of him with a mask on.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I think the Riddler would be better as a side villain... Hell, I think it'd be cool if he wasn't even in it. Just the riddles themselves....

that's just the plot of phone booth isn't it...

Tri wrote:Dent could still be alive (knocked out) ... i mean batman also fell from that hight and he was able to run away ok

They have a memorial for him at the end... he'd dead.

Chrysaor686 wrote:Nolan could probably throw everyone off by casting Michael Clarke Duncan (The Green Mile) in this role...

that won't work he's the King Pin (in dare devil)... maybe in the future there will be scope for dc marvel cross over movies...

Panic...

Panic wrote:yeah,
I think it will have to be a main well know character to sell the movie... and prevent fail...

I hardly think this is true. The third movie in a trilogy nearly always sells well if the second movie was good, and The Dark Night was a huge success.

How many people knew who Scarecrow was before Batman Begins?
Bane was known way better than Ra's al Ghul was. Batman Begins was still a huge success.

the general public will just be left wondering who the hell is bane is? after he's fought the joker, why isn't it the penguin or the riddler bothering batman next?

There would be something leading up to Bane's appearance. It wouldn't be him just walking up and going "I'm Bane!" "Oh it's Bane! Let's fight him!"

Orkeosaurus wrote:I think the Riddler would be better as a side villain... Hell, I think it'd be cool if he wasn't even in it. Just the riddles themselves....

that's just the plot of phone booth isn't it...

It's used in a lot of things, just like 'vigilante that takes things too far' and 'nihilistic psychopath who only wants destruction' are.

Besides, this wouldn't be the focus of the movie.

Squig_herder wrote:I really think the best two for the next movie would be the penguin and catwomen, as they are both dark characters and have realistic back stories that can be toned up or down depending on the mood of the film

i dont think you could legitimately do penguin and catwoman in the same film, as there would likely be law suits following as it was the EXACT villain duo used in batman returns.

there alot of ways you can introduce some of the staple characters in the batman realm, poison ivy could have been fired from Wayne Ent. for her biological weapons projects that werent authorized or something...


hehe... for a seriously twisted and sick plot twist...have Lucius Fox "defect" and become a master criminal

There were 3 clayfaces? I only know of one. Then again, most of my Batman knowledge comes from the animated series.

Carrey was great as Riddler, but the plot was horrible, as were most of his costumes. The classic pyjama with the hat worked best in Forever, but I can't think of something that would work in the Nolan-verse. On the other hand, nobody thought that a Clown in a purple coat would work

Movies on that scale can't live without a female lead, so either they give Ramirez a bigger role or use Catwoman. Which I still think could work if done right.
To quote Batman TAS:

Catwoman: "You can't denie that there's something between us."
Batman: "Yes, and I'm afraid it's the law."

Well, look at how the Joker was portrayed.

In the comics and previously, he's been darkly comical, fond of daft things like exploding Jack In the Box etc. Then Nolan had him just utterly bonkers, living in a world of his own where he just didn't seem to really consider the consequences.

So, Penguin as the Mob Boss could well work. Just have him dressed dapperly, with a kind of Penguin 'wark wark wark' laugh and leave it at that.

The third movie needs more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catman_(comics)

...what?

Well, Nolan killed off my choice (Two-Face), although I'd be OK with a Zodiac-styled Riddler.

since many folks around here seem to like the idea of riddler, but only if he should take on a more methodical, cold thinking logical killer type persona, he would probably need to be well dressed... in a black or other very dark colored suit, with dark green highlights, whether thats a forest green shirt, or a dark green vest.... perhaps he uses a cane (in the 19th century manner...not in a crippled, invalid kind of way) that is topped with an enigmatic topper?

i really dont want to see another jim carrey-esque riddler performance, with neon green sequined jump suits, and question marks everywhere....


if they did Penguin...they should use Al Pacino

Ensis Ferrae wrote:since many folks around here seem to like the idea of riddler, but only if he should take on a more methodical, cold thinking logical killer type persona, he would probably need to be well dressed... in a black or other very dark colored suit, with dark green highlights, whether thats a forest green shirt, or a dark green vest.... perhaps he uses a cane (in the 19th century manner...not in a crippled, invalid kind of way) that is topped with an enigmatic topper?

i really dont want to see another jim carrey-esque riddler performance, with neon green sequined jump suits, and question marks everywhere....

Oh sure - like in this fan-made movie poster - http://www.flickfilosopher.com/flickfilos/art/tennantriddler.jpg

Maybe a few discreet "?"s here and there for the thickies in the audience.

Pacino as penguin? Could work."WHO'S WITH ME, HOO-Waa Waa Waa"(Scent of a woman mixed with the penguin)

Still like my idea of Gaul Giamatti as penguin.

Depp is good enough to be riddler. I just would like to see what Buscemi could do with a DC villian role.

I feel the same way about Billy Crystal. I know he doesn't do a lot of acting anymore but his subtle & smooth delivery would make for an interesting villian if used for the right role.(Also, He's not afraid of prothsetic make-up.)

Gitkikka wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:since many folks around here seem to like the idea of riddler, but only if he should take on a more methodical, cold thinking logical killer type persona, he would probably need to be well dressed... in a black or other very dark colored suit, with dark green highlights, whether thats a forest green shirt, or a dark green vest.... perhaps he uses a cane (in the 19th century manner...not in a crippled, invalid kind of way) that is topped with an enigmatic topper?

i really dont want to see another jim carrey-esque riddler performance, with neon green sequined jump suits, and question marks everywhere....

Oh sure - like in this fan-made movie poster - http://www.flickfilosopher.com/flickfilos/art/tennantriddler.jpg

Maybe a few discreet "?"s here and there for the thickies in the audience.

ohh sure, maybe even MORE discreet than that...and NOT that bloke they got in a suit for that pic.... he would NOT make a very good riddler. he'd need a more cold, calculating look... like an Edward norton, or Kevin Spacey.

Marvel has Norton, But spacey would be good if they didn't take him over the top.

The Riddler in my opinion would be best as a reclusive sort of mastermind who engineers situations which can only be defused by solving his riddles, a brilliant, driven delusional type who is a total mystery as to his identity, so much that even Batman never actually figures out who he is. Make everything about him mysterious but plant really subtle clues to his identity throughout the movie. Also, I do believe that there is someone else out there who could play the Joker, and he wouldn't have to mimic Heath Ledger's performance. After all, his next appearance would be after being locked up in Arkham for awhile, and that is sure to change him.

My vote is for King Tut and/or Shame.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:i dont think you could legitimately do penguin and catwoman in the same film, as there would likely be law suits following as it was the EXACT villain duo used in batman returns.

No legal suits there, Warner Brothers did both movies. They have almost as much say in DC as DC, they(WB) even forced Wizkids to capitalize every letter in the name of every DC character Heroclix.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Well, look at how the Joker was portrayed.

In the comics and previously, he's been darkly comical, fond of daft things like exploding Jack In the Box etc. Then Nolan had him just utterly bonkers, living in a world of his own where he just didn't seem to really consider the consequences.

So, Penguin as the Mob Boss could well work. Just have him dressed dapperly, with a kind of Penguin 'wark wark wark' laugh and leave it at that.

Ledger's Joker was reminiscent of the Arkham Asylum Joker(both are more of the early "Hyper Insanity Evolution" to survive the next step in social evolution that's to come).

Ensis Ferrae wrote: ohh sure, maybe even MORE discreet than that...and NOT that bloke they got in a suit for that pic.... he would NOT make a very good riddler...

yeah,
The doctor!!! you know nothing, davids an amazing actor!
I'd more than welcome seeing him play the riddler.

Panic.

Jason Statham or John Travolta as Hitman

Panic wrote:yeah,
a twisted mind like the riddlers could be made more dark and perverted... If they steer him away from joker crazy, and more toward smart crazy!

The problem is the film played the Joker like that. He said he was random-inverting others plans but a third of the movie is him doing this elaborate plot to get the Chinese money launderer back, which incidentally kills off the Bat love interest. I don't see how you could separate it in a film.

I really think they should just quit at this point. Anything further will be a let down, and start the slide into stupidity.

I can on one hand see where you are coming from Frazzled, but on the other as a big Batman fan I'd love to see them keep going. As long as they don't de-evolve into the horror show that was 'Batman and Robin' then I'd be eager to watch it.


Heck one of the main reasons I watch the Justice League cartoon is Batman again, he is the best character DC have as far as I'm concerned, probably pushing for best overall individual character for me as well if I think on it, even though I am mainly a Marvel fan.


From reading what Nolan has said though, I do feel he has at least another, maybe two good Batman films in him.
The only danger would be if he decides to break Batman out of this 'younger Batman' phase and bring Robin into the mix. He has been quoted as saying he doesn't see Robin coming in for a few films yet, so its not as clear cut as him saying he'll never do him.

Also Robin may not be that awful if he was done right, although I have no idea what he's like in the comics. Only Robin I know is from Teen Titans cartoon and the previous films/60's series.

If they bring Robin in, it has to be as an actual kid, not some 6' 2" bodybuilder who's supposed to be 16 years old. He should be meanly sarcastic and barely controllable, but just as psychopathically dedicated to fighting crime as Batman.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:From reading what Nolan has said though, I do feel he has at least another, maybe two good Batman films in him. The only danger would be if he decides to break Batman out of this 'younger Batman' phase and bring Robin into the mix. He has been quoted as saying he doesn't see Robin coming in for a few films yet, so its not as clear cut as him saying he'll never do him.

Add onto that that Bale has said he wouldn't do one if they wanted to shoehorn in Robin and the odds of Robin being in any time soon is very slim.

I suppose they could do Reaper to show an extreme form of Batman and to emphasize the rise vigilantes and the importance of the lines that the Batman will not cross. Mad Hatter, The Ventriloquist, and the Holiday Killer are possibilities. They could have Mr. Zsasz make a brief appearance (he was in Batman Begins after all) like the Scarecrow in Dark Knight. I imagine the main will be The Riddler though. He makes a good contrast to The Joker. The Riddler is all about cold precision and control whereas the Joker is, well, not. I do worry though it would end up being like Saw where the Riddler would have people solving riddles and those who can't solve it would die. There has to be some gravitas and he would have to seem a serious threat and after the Joker that is quite an act to follow.

Orkeosaurus wrote:How many people knew who Scarecrow was before Batman Begins? Bane was known way better than Ra's al Ghul was. Batman Begins was still a huge success. Besides, this wouldn't be the focus of the movie.

Goyer is on record as saying people shouldn't necessarily expect the next villain(s) to be the famous, obvious ones, and pointed to their use of Scarecrow in BB. Having said that, Bane is a cartoony villain, IMO. A giant weaponless bodybuilder is hardly a credible threat in the universe they've set up.

The next villains will be whoever they think can fit into the theme they choose and story they want to tell. I think it was a huge mistake to kill off Two-Face...IMO the natural step in the next film was for Two-Face to rally the remnants of the Gotham underworld under him. And that might have worked well within a "redemption" storyline, now that Batman is being hunted by police. I think Catwoman, although an "obvious" choice, would do quite nicely in the Nolan universe in her purest form...a jewel thief who operates in a grey area, morally speaking.

I think we probably have to look to the Loeb/Sale stuff for a clue. Seems like that's the Nolans' and Goyer's bible.

Have you read Bane's origin?
He's far more than a weaponless body builder.
Seriously.
Check out Vengeance of Bane and Knightfall and come back to me.
(Though I think it is too early to bring in Bane.)
I'll say again, Nolan should feel free to introduce his own characters. Harley Quinn and Bullock were only introduced as part of Batman the Animated Series AFAIK so it's not like we don't have a precident.

Scarecrow actually originated as a Marvel property... somewhere in the late 60s-early 70s, Marvel and DC did a number of character "properties" swaps... i forget who Marvel got from DC in return for Scarecrow, but i do know that it was a villainous type person.

Da Boss wrote:Have you read Bane's origin?
He's far more than a weaponless body builder.
Seriously.
Check out Vengeance of Bane and Knightfall and come back to me.

I remember Knightfall. But we're talking about translating the comic book characters into the *realistic* universe Nolan created. Bane translated just wouldn't be interesting enough or a credible threat, IMO. Nolan's not going to make anyone truly superhumanly strong, and without that, he'd be a weaponless, smart bodybuilder who (realistically) would be taken apart by Nolan's Batman. Maybe he'd work as a lackey (ironically) a la the bastardization of the character in the Schumacher film. Can't see him as any kind of main villain, though. Ultimately, I think the character is just too comic-booky to the core.

Again, Nolan has already used non-existant drugs (mainly in Batman Begins) in the series, so why not introduce a steroid-type drug for the purpose of creating Bane? Like I said, there could be plenty of interesting plot twists thrown into this, such as Wayne Enterprises being responsible for creating the drug (and thus being responsible for turning Bane into somewhat of a freak). I'm sure that if the Joker could nearly take down Batman in a fist fight (cheap tricks aside), then Bane would be more than evenly matched for Batman's ninjitsu. Especially if he stayed true to the "soldier" archetype and was trained in CQC.

Change the ridiculous costume and you get rid of a lot of the "comic-book" persona. Sure, a drug in Nolan's world couldn't exactly be the equivalent of Venom, since that would be a little ridiculous, but a superior steroid would actually give Bane some advantage over Batman, and would lead to more credibility.

Of course, I agree with Bane not being the main Villain. He's just too obscure, and his archetype is just too generic to really suit a main role like that. The reason I cite Michael Clarke Duncan (despite him being the Kingpin, even though I'm fairly sure that doesn't legally bind him from being in a DC movie) is because if they used anyone from WWE or anything like that to fill the role of Bane (which I could easily see them doing), I would lose all respect for the series.

But, all in all, I think Bane and the Riddler would make for an interesting combination, with the Riddler at the forefront as the more popular villain. Perhaps the Penguin could suit to fill the role of the requisite mob boss (as it seems like they've needed one in every movie), perhaps taking control of the Falcone crime syndicate with his vast sums of money or some such thing. But make the Penguin a less prominent role, and perhaps don't allude to his name all too often. At least keep him around for a while.

EDIT: And, yes, Zsaz has already made a bit of a cameo appearance in Batman Begins, but they made him seem like nothing more than a common thug. Maybe he could fill a small role, but I couldn't see him doing much.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:I can on one hand see where you are coming from Frazzled, but on the other as a big Batman fan I'd love to see them keep going. As long as they don't de-evolve into the horror show that was 'Batman and Robin' then I'd be eager to watch it.

Thing is, the problem Batman and Robin made (and really, Batman Forever before that) was that they started with the casting and assumed that would be enough. Which is what a lot of people in this thread have done.

The thing is, no matter how well cast a Riddler or other character might be, how can he be anywhere near as engaging a villain as the Joker was? Some, like the Penguin, don't really have anything interesting for them once you strip away their comic books elements, while most others don't seem very scary in comparison to the Joker. It's a tough question to answer.

Chrysaor 686 wrote
The reason I cite Michael Clarke Duncan (despite him being the Kingpin, even though I'm fairly sure that doesn't legally bind him from being in a DC movie) is because if they used anyone from WWE or anything like that to fill the role of Bane (which I could easily see them doing), I would lose all respect for the series.

The gyu who played Cyclops (forgot the name) was in Superman Returns. Then again, Cyclops got killed 3 minutes into the third movie

i did have a thought today on this subject at work.... in regards to catwooman.. saw that one of the previous actresses of her had passed away this past year, and how this particular female had a history in dancing.

now, we all know that Cat Woman has a thing for batman, that she is graceful and sexy, and many other things... and i had the thought that someone LIKE lucy liu, or another asian super hottie could potentially fill this role, as most of the time i've seen, the super hot asian women actresses pull all of this off very well... not to mention how they look in black vinyl/pleather

Ensis Ferrae wrote:Scarecrow actually originated as a Marvel property... somewhere in the late 60s-early 70s, Marvel and DC did a number of character "properties" swaps... i forget who Marvel got from DC in return for Scarecrow, but i do know that it was a villainous type person.

You sure about this ? I always thought this was a bit of an urban myth. Dcand Marvel both have characters called Scarecrow ( Marvel in fact had 2 at one point if memory serves, 1 of which used to fight Ghost Rider a lot. I have a team up with him and captain America somewhere or other), and in fact they were merged during one of the Amalgam stories.

I was just looking back at Batman and Robin, and saw their plans for what would have been the 5th batman movie. It seems they were going to feature Harley Quinn as Joker's daughter, an independent villain. This might actually be an interesting twist to toss in for the next batman film. We know it has the Riddler, an amateur criminal. He needs an evil conscience, like the daughter of the most unhinged criminal in Gotham. She might even be able to convince Riddler that he was on the side of good for trying to trap a terrible criminal like Batman. It may or may not work, but it sure would be fun to watch.

Trouble is, the Joker would not be old enough to have Fathered a grown Child....

reds8n wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:Scarecrow actually originated as a Marvel property... somewhere in the late 60s-early 70s, Marvel and DC did a number of character "properties" swaps... i forget who Marvel got from DC in return for Scarecrow, but i do know that it was a villainous type person.

You sure about this ? I always thought this was a bit of an urban myth. Dcand Marvel both have characters called Scarecrow ( Marvel in fact had 2 at one point if memory serves, 1 of which used to fight Ghost Rider a lot. I have a team up with him and captain America somewhere or other), and in fact they were merged during one of the Amalgam stories.

i dont remember which issue was shown to me, but a gentleman in the local comic shop (the one i frequented before being deployed to iraq) showed me proof that scarecrow was originally a marvel property... if theres more than one scarecrow, then the one i saw strongly resembled the one in the batman cartoon series (with red sweater and rag head-covering...similar to the movie mask)..on top of that the shop owner (a marvel fan, like myself) looked at me as if i had an extra set of male genitalia growing out of my forehead when i even asked about who had scarecrow first.

at any rate, we all know what 95% of Marvel superheroes would do to batman

Batman has defeated Superman, White Martians, and Predator. I'm sure he could take Spider-man. He'll have a plan, he always does.

Edit: Scarecrow's first appearance was in 1941 and his creation is credited to Bob Kane and Bill Finger.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:at any rate, we all know what 95% of Marvel superheroes would do to batman

Lose heavily I guess. He took Bullseye out with 1 punch, beat up Captain America, and knocked out the Hulk.

From memory Spider man called him "Sir" when they met.... just as well he wasn't a GW employee perhaps but that's a digression.

To my knowledge apart from some mutual BS about the moniker "Captain Marvel" Dc and Marvel have never traded characters etc at all. The exception again coming during/with Amalgam I guess.

I think your local comic book guy was either "sadly in error" or just out and out lying/trying to impress.

Been thinking on this and based on the Dark knight ending I think I figured what they're gonna do.

The next Villian doesn't have to be an all invasive thoroughly integral part of every aspect of the film.

Batmans now a criminal as far as Gotham is concerned. The story is going to be more aboput how he fights on, caught between the criminal world and law enforcement. How he operates behind the scenes and the increasing difficulty of maintaining his secret. How Dark is he? How many assets (people)does he use up in his quest?

I could even see them playing with bringing in the special squad designed to take Batman down.

Just a thought

focusedfire wrote:I could even see them playing with bringing in the special squad designed to take Batman down.

Just a thought

They've done it before in the comics. This is sort of why I was thinking they could perhaps do the Suicide Squad, I mean Give-Back Program. Gotham Police request aide in hunting down Batman, Waller sends a few of her pet minor villains in to hunt him down. No major villains(except perhaps Waller), just 3-4 minor villains(Dead Shot, Merlyn[the archer, not the magician, once took a contract on Batman's life in the comics], a few more techies/non-metas). Could be interesting.

Tri wrote:Dent could still be alive (knocked out) ... i mean batman also fell from that hight and he was able to run away ok

What if Dent still is alive?,I know Gordan is seen giving a eulogy for Dent at the end of Dark Knight,but perhaps...just perhaps it was a cover up to preserve Dents' image to the people of Gotham. .
This way Two Face could be truly allowed to develope further as a character (wich I did'nt feel he did in Dark Knight).
Aside from this I still feel Riddler (Twisted/Evil ala Zodiac) would be interesting.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Trouble is, the Joker would not be old enough to have Fathered a grown Child....

Who can tell how old the Joker is? And anyway, it's easy enough to move the timeline forward between films.

BTW, I just watched Dark Knight for the first time tonight (I know...), and I was very pleasantly surprised. I didn't think any film could live up to that level of hype, but wow, I loved it. Add me to the people clamouring for a posthumous oscar for Ledger.

Nolan himself has said that Dent is dead. There will not be a revival of two-face.

On another note I think that his character was about as developed as it was going to get. The whole idea behind this two-face was fairness and revenge. After he let "fate" decide who should live and die among those he thought murdered Rachel he would have nothing left.

Deathstroke

Maybe DC could use this opportunity to launch simultaneously with the movie a new Batman Villian.

I think expanding on the "batman is a criminal" idea is the best way to go forward. The antagonist could be a policeman who fights crime...properly! It would make for an interesting film in many ways.

I think expanding on the "batman is a criminal" idea is the best way to go forward. The antagonist could be a policeman who fights crime...properly! It would make for an interesting film in many ways.

Lock-Up

Hmm if we were going to go that way then I guess Dr. Hugo Strange would work. Hell I'd be more than happy if they folded in the Black Glove in some way. I think they'd fit into Gotham as portrayed in the film wonderfully.

I thought Hugo Strange too, he might work.
Lock Up is too much of an extremist- I'd prefer to have batman be the extremist. Or at least, the percieved extremist.
I'd be happier with just an FBI agent or something, someone tough and ethical. Like the guy from the remake of codename unknown soldier, if anyone's read it?

I think Lock Up could be a cracking call with Batman now wanted by the law.