Nob Bikers, wats their deal?

10 T5 models with 2 wounds each, a 4+ armor save, a 5+ invuln save, a 4+ cover save, and Feel No Pain conferred by a Painboy.

Each model can be outfitted individually so a savvy player will be able to take ten wounds before he has to remove a single one. Now add to that their ability to dump 30 S5 shots into a unit, half of them using Power Klaws with 3 attacks each (base), and the Warboss attached to the unit letting them count as scoring troops, you've got a rock hard unit that's very difficult to kill before it's up in your face killing all your dudes.

Thanks man that sounds scary :O
do you have a vague idea how many points that will run you?

Each squad with the Warboss will run about 750.

For a 10 man unit, 625 points. If you include a Warboss, 755(770 with an attack squig).

If you want to equip them to make them as hard to kill as possible, it gets more expensive.

WOW, that is rough!
how does one beat it?

Roll lots of 6's

Powerfists. Battlecannons. Wind of Chaos. Power weapons.

CSM would have a chance. They boast units who are better in CC than Orks (Berzerkers, DP) and some great ranged support (Defilers, Oblits) Remember, they can't get their FnP when you hit them with APing weapons or power weapons.

And especially knowing that there are more of you than there are them...

Although Orks are my main army, I refuse to field Nob Bikers.

Yeah, nob bikers are pretty much devoid of all stratagy. They'll win games, but it won't exactly be the most fun thing in the world. For the most part, it's turbo-boost, charge, win. Winning's fun for a while, but when you come to realize that you're not actually winning through any thought of your own, but through pure mathhammer, it gets kind of boring.

That said, Nob Bikers are great for people who don't like to think.

adielubbe wrote:WOW, that is rough!
how does one beat it?

Tank shock it and watch it run off the board.

I just mention this because it happened last night, heh.

Nob bikers are near impossible for some armies to deal with. Tau come to mind. They are too few low Ap weapons so you almost always get the double save.

Heavy flamers are one of the best weapons against them.

'Nidzilla is brutal against it. It's the only "top-tier" army lists that I don't worry about. 4-st8 large templates and 6 MC's make it not so worrying but as other armies:

DE-Normal Raider Spam
IG-Battlecannons
SM-Thunderhammer Assault Marines
CSM-Defilers and Oblits
Tau-Pretty much screwed
Necrons-Pretty much screwed too, you'll wind up phased out
Eldar-Wraithlords and Fireprisms
Daemons-Soulgrinders and GD's

Should sum it up really

Yesterday, I was at an apoc game with 11 players, and someone brought 2 squads of Noob Bikers.

They chewed through 40 guardsmen, 20 tac marines, 6 terminators and were about halfway through a titan before a squadron of russes finally got into range.

Overpowered? That's a resounding yes!

Hulksmash wrote:
DE-Normal Raider Spam
IG-Battlecannons
SM-Thunderhammer Assault Marines
CSM-Defilers and Oblits
Tau-Pretty much screwed
Necrons-Pretty much screwed too, you'll wind up phased out
Eldar-Wraithlords and Fireprisms
Daemons-Soulgrinders and GD's

Close, but I think you're either being to general, or missing the mark entirely. Note that the following aren't "auto-counters" or even units that, for the most part, can match up to the nob bikers one on one.

DE - Dark Lance/Blasters spam. Maybe, if you're lucky.
IG - Pretty much screwed. Might possibly be able to win via attrition if you're lucky, but you need massed S8+ firepower, and even that might not be enough.
SM - Thunderhammer Terminators and/or Ironclad Dreadnoughts en masse.
CSM - lots of things, in the right combinations (see below)
Tau - Markerlights supporting broadsides en masse
Necrons - Completely screwed.
Eldar - Wraithlords, fortuned seer councils, Karandas, 3xShining Spears, midwarring farseers, some other esoteric combos
Daemons - Soul Grinders, Bloodthirsters, Fateweaver+bloodcrushers, Skulltaker
Tyranids - CC Godzilla, implant attack stealers

The reason why people are complaining is that the nob bikers are a ridiculously overpowering unit at a ridiculous cost, that can't be ignored, moves quickly, and kills almost anything it touches. The list above is by no means comprehensive, but if you look at it, you'll see that there are some similarities, which I summarized in the other silly anti-nob biker threads.

Remember, we're not talking unit on unit here...we're talking army against army. So your army needs to have units that in concert can accomplish at least two of the following three things, in large quantities.

1) Negate the 3+/4+ cover save
2) Negate the FNP save
3) Cause instant death (i.e. S8+)

If you can do all three, you'll probably smoke the nob bikers easily (i.e. 3 ironclad dreadnoughts charging the bikers will likely kill over half the squad, the return attacks are unlikely to kill all the dreadnoughts, and in subsequent turns the nob bikers will probably get knocked out). If you can only do one, you're really relying on some ridiculous luck going your way, and quite likely won't be able to deal with the 2nd squad of nob bikers that's running around. And if you can't do any, you're screwed.

If you can do at least two, its going to take tactical thinking, but you can set up situations where you can deal with the nob bikers. Probably.

The list was just a quick list of things you'd need to include in your list to help against Nobz. Sorry I wasn't as specific as I could have been.

As for your small list at the bottom I agree though since #3 causes #2 I've lucked out that in that my army has a ton of #3

Reports have been greatly exaggerated. Apparently all you have to do is play keep away the entire game and destroy their backfield. Easy as pie guy. Take the example army in the codex, you will be destined for greatness. Make sure to get your Zerkers and Stealers into HtH with the Nobs, then you cannot lose.

At what post count will I stop being a Devastating Dark Reaper? I will stop posting before I reach that number of posts. I'm sure at least a few people will be happy to hear this.

Quick, someone go start up another NOB BIKER thread...we havent covered all facets of the subject!...or have we?

if the army dosn't take any thought to win, what if a good player uses it?

run away it's the NOB BIKER's

Deadshane1 wrote:Quick, someone go start up another NOB BIKER thread...we havent covered all facets of the subject!...or have we?

HOw does a hello kitty doll stop a Nob biker?

The Khorne Daemon player at the FLGS does really well against the Nob Biker player. Bloodletters all have power weapons, so the Nobz don't get any of their saves at all.

I think Centurian99 has hit the mark.

Cheese Elemental wrote:The Khorne Daemon player at the FLGS does really well against the Nob Biker player. Bloodletters all have power weapons, so the Nobz don't get any of their saves at all.

Bloodletters can bypass Invulnerable saves?

I have found that new Space Marines Assault Terminators (with at least three TH/SS) accompanied by a Terminator Librarian with Null Zone to be the best counter so far. I have seen Markerlight heavy Tau shoot them of the board as well.

The reason why there is so much complaining though is that few armies can really match them with balanced competitive RTT lists.

And really, the Orks don't need them to be effective at winning games. They are a crutch unit just like Snikrot and many others....

The orks actually have so many 'un-fun' (gay) units,
like zagstrucks squad, snikrot, noob bikers, dreadnought squads or whatever, 30 wound squad for 120 points -which they can take 6 of, 2+ invulnerables etc etc..
that is rediculous!

adielubbe wrote:The orks actually have so many 'un-fun' (gay) units,
like zagstrucks squad, snikrot, noob bikers, dreadnought squads or whatever, 30 wound squad for 120 points -which they can take 6 of, 2+ invulnerables etc etc..
that is rediculous!

In fact, Orks are very good these days.
There are several top tier army builds, and Nobz Bikers need not be in there.
But Nobz Bikers are one of the best units in the game, no matter what.
You have to think about throwing an equal (better: larger) amount of your army against the 770 points the Nobz are worth.
If the Nobz are the only fast element of the enemy, while the rest is lumbering, your army has at least two rounds to deal with the Nobz.

You need very specific units to deal with the Bikers. Without those units you will probably lose. I can only think of Nidzilla which might approach this, in terms of needing very specific units to deal with the threat, however NIdzilla has a bigger list of potential counters.

I'm adding 2-4 dreads/wraithlords to every army I can.

Dreads and Wraithlords die easily from power claws, especially when the Nobz have the WS upgrade hitting on 3+.

Not Dreads. The Nobz have a chance if they are charging, otherwise dreads, especially Ironclads will run through them. 3's to hit and 5's to glance means nothing when an Ironclad doesn't care about glances. So now it's 3's to hit and 6's to pen, but the Ironclad only cares about a 5-6 on the pen. Twon Ironclads (~ 1/3rd the points of a Biker unit) should beat and run down the bikers in short order. Ironclads aren't to bad against most every other list, except Nidzilla, also.

@C99:

Hmm, you say Necrons are completely screwed, but I'm not entirely confident they can't force a draw.

Make a variant of my MechaGodzilla army. C'tan, 9 Spyders, Necrons.

Deploy in Circle the Wagon formation, with non-warriors on the outside, and the MC's forming the middle layer. The crunchies hide in the middle.

If the Bikers stay at a distance and shoot, the Necrons just camp out on the objectives and shoot back. It's a game with a whole lotta nothing going down. (even massed Immortal fire doesn't do much to Bikers, while biker fire is unimpressive vs. Immortals) If the bikers come in and charge the outside shell the Mc's counter charge and run them over (C'tan can take a whole unit on his lonesome, and that many spiders ought to be able to get something done vs. the other unit, esp. combined with all the gauss.).

Seems like the crons ought to be able to pull off a draw.

40kenthusiast wrote:@C99:

Hmm, you say Necrons are completely screwed, but I'm not entirely confident they can't force a draw.

Make a variant of my MechaGodzilla army. C'tan, 9 Spyders, Necrons.

Deploy in Circle the Wagon formation, with non-warriors on the outside, and the MC's forming the middle layer. The crunchies hide in the middle.

If the Bikers stay at a distance and shoot, the Necrons just camp out on the objectives and shoot back. It's a game with a whole lotta nothing going down. (even massed Immortal fire doesn't do much to Bikers, while biker fire is unimpressive vs. Immortals) If the bikers come in and charge the outside shell the Mc's counter charge and run them over (C'tan can take a whole unit on his lonesome, and that many spiders ought to be able to get something done vs. the other unit, esp. combined with all the gauss.).

Seems like the crons ought to be able to pull off a draw.

Without seeing a list for what you're describing, I can't see exactly, but you've got what, 9 Tomb Spyders? And a C'Tan. Hmm...I'm assuming 20 immortals and 20 warriors.

Those Tomb Spyders are toast. They need 5's to hit, 3's to wound, and they don't instakill. Even if all three charge a squad of bikes, they get 36 attacks, 12 hits, 8 wounds, and ~6 past the 5+ inv. save. Orks strike back with 16 power klaw attacks, 11 hits, 9 wounds. Actual results depend on how wounds are alocated among the three Tomb Spyder squads (or do they operate independently?)

If the C'Tan charges in support of the Tomb Spyders, Necrons win the combat, but that leaves the other nob squad to assault both remaining warrior squads. Game over. If the C'Tan charges the other nob squad, unsupported, I think the C'Tan dies.

Regardless, that's assuming that the nob biker player's something of an idiot. Because all he has to do is use one squad to take out the immortals, leaving only that squad in charge range of the tomb spyders and C'Tan. Then he charges in with the other squad, takes out the warriors, and necrons phase.

I think I'm going to have to stand with my original thought...totally screwed.

The Necrons might have a better chance with 9 Heavy Destroyers and the Nightbringer. That's 945pts right there. Add in 10 Pariahs and 20 warriors at 1850pts. I admit it's not much against anything else, but 9 mobile lascannons, the Nightbringer and 10-20 str 5 HtH attacks that ignore all saves might work.

A mobile Necron army might have a chance. They could outmaneuver the Nobz Bikers for about two rounds while shooting them. Heavy Destroyers could decimate them, while a C'tan could possibly finish them off.
However, I doubt that this works as the Bikers are too fast and could be supported by other fast units (Trukk Boyz).

Seems like the tomb spyders would be ignored altogether, since they hit on 5's and wound on 3's with their 3 non-instant death attacks each. A unit of 3 spiders on the countercharge is looking at 12 attacks, 4 hits, 2.6 wounds, 1.7 unsaved? A single nob power-klaw matches that output in return (3, 2, 1.64 respectively).

Dakkaguns would train on the c'tan (deal an avg of 3 wounds per turn), but even in assault I'd give it to one unit of bikes over the deceiver in an assault. WS5 isn't doing him any favors.

If the deceiver assaults in, he'll die to massed klaws + boss. If another unit assaults in with him to hold the klaws down, he'll lose the combat since he can't put out enough wounds by himself to offset what the nobs will do to the support unit.

Nightbringer fairs slightly better (by hitting on 3s and ID'ing the warboss), but both are relegated to countercharging one unit that probably multi-charged several of your units off the board last turn.

Edit: and Cent beat me to it. The numbers are not kind to the necron player. The ork player could do this one even in the theoretical worst case conditions.

Phooey.

I'm just building me a unit because I ned a retinue for my Biker Warboss and normal Bikers suck in CC (well, for Ork standards ). I haven't use them yet though.
At which point are there considered to be "too" powerfull? I have a Dok on bike, but I'm not planning ob giving them Cybork bodies, because sometimes I prefer "normal" Orks.

thats true.
Doesnt anyone want to mathahmmer that necron strategy?

Reaver83 wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Quick, someone go start up another NOB BIKER thread...we havent covered all facets of the subject!...or have we?

HOw does a hello kitty doll stop a Nob biker?

Well if the Hello Kitty Doll is a Terminator Hello Kitty thats not much of a problem even better if she has a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield. That reminds me I have to get some bits and convert some Terminator Kittys with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields.

Strength 8+ ranged preferably templates, backed up with Str 8 + power weapon attacks is the way to beat the bikers. Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines and other Marines can do it with Vindicators and Terminators in Land Raider. Tyranids have Barb Stranglers and Carnifexes. New Imperial Guard might pose a threat with Russ Squadrons for more templates but has no assault to back it up.

Hey what about Abbadon, or genesteelers, or whyches, or those daemon special characters, ie kugarth the nurgle guy, and/or the big badass khorne daemon lord..
arn't they good, what about epidimus and his special rule spam on nurgle guys?? what about any other powerful units, can nothing take em out?

A good point though is that a Full squad of Noob Bikers costs more than a titan :O !!

Abbadon's supposed to be unbeatable in HtH, or Ghazgull on his waaagh! charge, can they beat em?

Abby could kill one unit, but the second would shoot him to death. Depends on army makeup.

Or, he could roll a 1 for his number of attacks and do nothing but attack himself, followed by complete vaporization from the Nob squad. Daemon Weapons are a big gamble, especially with a unit as expensive as Abbadon.

tru

sourclams wrote:10 T5 models with 2 wounds each, a 4+ armor save, a 5+ invuln save, a 4+ cover save, and Feel No Pain conferred by a Painboy.

To be precise, it is UP to 10 models, T4/5 (important for insta-kill!), a 3+/4+ cover save (depending on turbo-boosting or not), furious charge, 24" range, 18" charge range.

Now add to that their ability to dump 30 S5 shots into a unit, half of them using Power Klaws with 3 attacks each (base),

The ability to dump 30 S5 twin-linked shots into a unit and the possibility of ALL of them using power klaws (even though that gets expensive and limits the choices to make them unique to nine).

Multi-meltas, loads of lascannon, democannon, earthshaker, thunder hammer (especially when coupled with stormshields), Seer Council, perhaps the ground burst round from the thunderfire cannon are all good tools.

Take away the two wounds and FNP, and you will have a good chance. Take away one of them and you might come out on top. Oh, any thing that can kill the painboy (mindwar, assassin...) might be worth a shot, and without the Warboss they're only Ld 7...

Centurian99 wrote:
IG - Pretty much screwed.

Nonsense. All ordnance weapons are good against the Nobs, and it's pretty easy to keep them alive long enough with infantry screens. There won't be 20 Bikers in 1500, and even in higher point games they won't have much support to shoot down the screens.

WC_Brian wrote:
Reports have been greatly exaggerated. Apparently all you have to do is play keep away the entire game and destroy their backfield. Easy as pie guy.

Do I detect traces of irony in your voice? With a 24" turbo-boost, you'll soon run out of places to hide.

9 Strength 6 Templates that ignore cover and the 4+ armour save or can cause a dangerours terrain test every turn are not to be laughed at, however 3 Thunderfire Cannons are a rather rare and somewhat fragile unit.

Ehhh...

The S6 shot does not ignore cover (4+/FNP).

The S5 shot ignores cover but does not ignore their armor save (4+/FNP).

The S4 shot that causes dangerous terrain wounds on 5s and doesn't ignore cover (4+/FNP), and dangerous terrain allows invuln saves and FNP (5+/FNP).

Arguably effective for a 300 point investment, however.

sourclams wrote:
The S4 shot that causes dangerous terrain wounds on 5s and doesn't ignore cover (4+/FNP), and dangerous terrain allows invuln saves and FNP (5+/FNP).

Arguably effective for a 300 point investment, however.

minor note. You can't make FNP saves against wounds that don't allow armor saves. That'd mean that dangerous terrain tests can be invuln'ed but not FNP'ed. It doesn't really change the point you are making.

^ Sourclams

IN the second line did you mean it doesn't ignore their armour save?

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:
To be precise, it is UP to 10 models, T4/5 (important for insta-kill!), a 3+/4+ cover save (depending on turbo-boosting or not), furious charge, 24" range, 18" charge range.

The ability to dump 30 S5 twin-linked shots into a unit and the possibility of ALL of them using power klaws (even though that gets expensive and limits the choices to make them unique to nine).

We're not talking about the guy who takes a handful of bikers here, or the guy who only takes a single squad. While, tough, those can be dealt with. We're talking about the ork player who's taking two squads of at least 10, including the painboy and warboss. Two is more than twice as tough to deal with. Remember, these Nob Biker Squads are TROOPS.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:
Multi-meltas, loads of lascannon, democannon, earthshaker, thunder hammer (especially when coupled with stormshields), Seer Council, perhaps the ground burst round from the thunderfire cannon are all good tools.

Negative, negative, negative. The only thing in that list that's worthwhile is the thunder hammer and perhaps the seer council. All those shooting weapons are essentially useless, because the only time they're shooting, they have to get past AT LEAST a 4+ cover save. Quite likely, they're trying to get through a 3+ cover save.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:
IG - Pretty much screwed.

Nonsense. All ordnance weapons are good against the Nobs, and it's pretty easy to keep them alive long enough with infantry screens. There won't be 20 Bikers in 1500, and even in higher point games they won't have much support to shoot down the screens.

#1 - There can be. I thought 20 bikers in 1500 was impossible, but someone showed me it could be done. You do only get three klaws on nobs per squad, but at 1500, it's not as much of a negative.
#2 - Ordnance is so-near to being useless that its not even funny. With the cover save, you kill one or two bikers, max. Then they multicharge your screen away, and you get to kill another one or two bikers. Then your ordnance tanks all die.

Remember, there's two of these squads that you have to deal with.

If you had five-six turns to shell the nob bikers, massed ordnance fire might be able to do the trick. But you've got to plan on only having one or two turns max.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:

WC_Brian wrote:
Reports have been greatly exaggerated. Apparently all you have to do is play keep away the entire game and destroy their backfield. Easy as pie guy.

Do I detect traces of irony in your voice? With a 24" turbo-boost, you'll soon run out of places to hide.

I think a couple cheap squads of rough riders on the charge will put a damper on nob bikers pretty quick. It's a shame more guard players don't field them.

augustus5 wrote:I think a couple cheap squads of rough riders on the charge will put a damper on nob bikers pretty quick. It's a shame more guard players don't field them.

3 Squads of 6, charging. 36 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds. 3 saved by invulnerable saves, so 6 wounds inflicted. Congratulations, you haven't killed a single model.

adielubbe wrote:The orks actually have so many 'un-fun' (gay) units,
like zagstrucks squad, snikrot, noob bikers, dreadnought squads or whatever, 30 wound squad for 120 points -which they can take 6 of, 2+ invulnerables etc etc..
that is rediculous!

Do you take any enjoyment in life? Did you cry today because the sun sets at 6?

I still think the only army that doesn't need to be worried about them is a good 'Nidzilla build.

5 Carnies-

2 Elite Boomfexs(Barbedstrangler and Talons)
2 HS Boomfexs (BS and Talons) w/tusked and combat upgrades
1 w/2 TL Devourers and shooting ugrade

1 Hive Tyrant w/2 TL Devourers

12 Warriors w/10 St6 Deathspitters

and 88 Small bugs to make slow you down.

I've wiped out a command squad w/commander equipped like nobs w/out even shooting the barbed stranglers. The small bugs just move up and block, dieing every enemy turn and leaving them open to be shot or charged by big bugs. It's actually the one power build Nidzilla doesn't have to worry about.

As for anyone else your kinda hosed though I think a Bike mounted SM list would give it a run but that's more of a chess game if both players are good.

Centurian99 wrote:

augustus5 wrote:I think a couple cheap squads of rough riders on the charge will put a damper on nob bikers pretty quick. It's a shame more guard players don't field them.

3 Squads of 6, charging. 36 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds. 3 saved by invulnerable saves, so 6 wounds inflicted. Congratulations, you haven't killed a single model.

I run 3 squads of 10, and in one of the squads I put my honorifica and a pw on the vet sgt. For half the points of a single nob bike squad, I can take it out. I can't believe I'd have a ton of trouble shooting the hell out of the other squad.

Mind you, I have not played any list like this yet, but after they assault they can't consolodate into another of my cheap squads until their next turn so I get a turn one shooting the heck out of them.

Shep wrote:

sourclams wrote:
The S4 shot that causes dangerous terrain wounds on 5s and doesn't ignore cover (4+/FNP), and dangerous terrain allows invuln saves and FNP (5+/FNP).

minor note. You can't make FNP saves against wounds that don't allow armor saves. That'd mean that dangerous terrain tests can be invuln'ed but not FNP'ed. It doesn't really change the point you are making.

Damn! Foiled again!

BGB p.75

Under the feel no pain catagory:

Last line. Voila. ''..failed dangerous terrain tests,...''

augustus5 wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:

augustus5 wrote:I think a couple cheap squads of rough riders on the charge will put a damper on nob bikers pretty quick. It's a shame more guard players don't field them.

3 Squads of 6, charging. 36 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds. 3 saved by invulnerable saves, so 6 wounds inflicted. Congratulations, you haven't killed a single model.

I run 3 squads of 10, and in one of the squads I put my honorifica and a pw on the vet sgt. For half the points of a single nob bike squad, I can take it out. I can't believe I'd have a ton of trouble shooting the hell out of the other squad.

So instead we have 56 attacks, 28 hits, 14 wounds. 4 saved by invulnerables, so 10 wounds inflicted. Once again you havent killed a single model. (I'm also assuming your sgt decides to take a hunting lance in addition to his power weapon since the power weapon will be near useless against the T5 models) Orks then proceed to kill all 350+ pts of your close combat defence in one fell swoop. Oops.

augustus5 wrote:
Mind you, I have not played any list like this yet, but after they assault they can't consolodate into another of my cheap squads until their next turn so I get a turn one shooting the heck out of them.

Thats just it, you have to really play against this or see it in action to appreciate it. They're not concerned with consolidating either. Nob biker generals are frequently masters of the 'multi-charge'. After a single charge you're not going to have much to shoot back with.

How can anyone say when 14 invulnerable saves are made that each model only fails a save once and not twice? The odds say you will lose a few models completely. Bill and Shane, don't assume that when a bunch of saves are failed, the Nobz will fail the ones that help them out the most. Someone can fail twice and in virtually all cases some of them will fail twice while others will not fail at all. So some Nobz will die.

Shooting the Nobz are tough. IN most cases people are looking at trying to kill the nobz from shooting in one volley and that will fail. If, however, you shoot the nobz enough to reduce the majority of them to 1 wound, then the next round of shooting will start to drop them quickly. This might be the only hope in dealing with them by shooting.

I feel the best way to deal with them are dreadnoughts in bunches. Double CCW dreads are cheap, safe and can drop them fast. The dreads aren't useless against other lists and so they won't harm you in a tournament

If you figure 10 bikers and a Warboss in the unit, then you figure 14 pw wounds the ork player will lose a MAX of 2 models. Thats average rolling, sure the RR's might do better and the orks worse, but the reverse is also true.

(You DID get me with that point however darth, you might indeed kill off a couple of nobs...bills example is still a flawless analysis of RR's attacking nobs though...with the numbers he gave.)

Even if the RR's DO bring 30 boys in, all with hunting lances and the Honorifica, its still no real match for the 10 bikers and Warboss. Who'll be hitting THEM on 3's all around and wounding on 3's and 2's. Nevermind the ork player will be looking to blast them off of the board in the first place if possible beforehand anyway. Will the Nobs be HURT if the RR's charge...sure they will, will the RR's (30 of them) wax the Biker unit...VERY doubtful. Definatly not probable.

The entire point is, RoughRiders are NOT an answer to NobBikers. Thats pretty much been proven here.

Hm. I routinely slaughter a Nob Biker list with my Tau force. I do run a markerlight heavy list, and my FLGS runs a house rule that if you're using two units, only one of them can be the screening unit giving a cover save. (It's a common sense rule. Basicly saying that in order for one or more units to get a screening cover save, one of those units has to be exposed and vulnerable.)

Bikers dont checkerboard for their coversaves.

....they have a 4+ coversave out in the open thanx to all the dirty smoke that pours out of the bikes.

"routinely slaughter Nob Bikers with Tau"? I don't see that one. Congrats I guess, but I'd say someone at your store may not be up to the skill level of some of the bigger fish playing at the Tournements this year.

augustus5 wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:

augustus5 wrote:I think a couple cheap squads of rough riders on the charge will put a damper on nob bikers pretty quick. It's a shame more guard players don't field them.

3 Squads of 6, charging. 36 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds. 3 saved by invulnerable saves, so 6 wounds inflicted. Congratulations, you haven't killed a single model.

I run 3 squads of 10, and in one of the squads I put my honorifica and a pw on the vet sgt. For half the points of a single nob bike squad, I can take it out. I can't believe I'd have a ton of trouble shooting the hell out of the other squad.

Mind you, I have not played any list like this yet, but after they assault they can't consolodate into another of my cheap squads until their next turn so I get a turn one shooting the heck out of them.

hmm...3 squads of 10...

So that's 64 attacks, 32 hits, 16 wounds. 2 go on the warboss, 2 go on each of the non-powerklaw-equipped nobs, 2 go onto one of the power-klaw equipped nobs, and 1 goes onto each remaining model. at most, you're killing 5 models. More likely, you kill 2-3, and inflict another 2-3 wounds.

Orks strike back...just figuring the models that are guaranteed to strike: 13 attacks, 8 hits, 7 kills from power klaws, another 2 from the painboy. Any nobs you didn't kill add another 1-2 kills.

As dreadshane says...who cares about consolidate, when you can multicharge.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Shooting the Nobz are tough. IN most cases people are looking at trying to kill the nobz from shooting in one volley and that will fail. If, however, you shoot the nobz enough to reduce the majority of them to 1 wound, then the next round of shooting will start to drop them quickly. This might be the only hope in dealing with them by shooting.

True, but you need loota levels of firing to do that. No many armies can put out the number of high-strength shots that lootas can...even Eldar have a tough time doing that.

DarthDiggler wrote:
I feel the best way to deal with them are dreadnoughts in bunches. Double CCW dreads are cheap, safe and can drop them fast. The dreads aren't useless against other lists and so they won't harm you in a tournament

Absolutely. Ironclad spam bends the nob bikers over the table and makes them call them daddy.

RaGe-at-Random wrote:Hm. I routinely slaughter a Nob Biker list with my Tau force. I do run a markerlight heavy list, and my FLGS runs a house rule that if you're using two units, only one of them can be the screening unit giving a cover save. (It's a common sense rule. Basicly saying that in order for one or more units to get a screening cover save, one of those units has to be exposed and vulnerable.)

Quick question - are you talking about an ork army with some nobs on bikes, or are you talking about having 2 squads of nob bikers, each 10-strong, with at least 4 nobs with powerklaws (and a warboss with klaw) in the unit? Those are two entirely different thing.

Quick comment...I think Tau are the only army that can reliably take them down from shooting, thanks to their marerlights. Markerlights plus massed rail guns = dead nob bikers.

By the way, nob bikers generate their own cover saves. They have a 4+ cover save from the warbikes special rule, and get 3+ from turbo-boosting.

I would like to second Tau shooting Nob Bikers.

Markerlights can strip the cover saves, and Tau can put out a crap ton of high strength shooting to kill the Nobz.

The Nob biker list that is usually fielded in my local store only has one unit. but has Snikrot, Lootaz, and multiple Truck Squads. So far that list has only lost once, and that was versus Capt. K's three Land Raider Black Templar list.

However, I have seen the unit easily taken out by three things so far: Markerlight Heavy Tau has wiped the unit in a single shooting phase (with average rolls), Space Marine Assault Terminators charging out of a Land Raider with a Librarian with Null Zone has taken out the unit in a single assault phase (with average rolls), Multiple Land Raiders have shot them of the board over the course of a game because the Bikerz just can't kill a Raider on the move.

So there are counters out there that can fit in a "balanced competitive" list.

But anybody who wants to win a tournament these days has to field at least one unit to counter a Nob Bikers squad.

Oh, and I am going to go out on a limb here, but I don't think Nidzilla has that many counters to Nob Bikerz, I would wager a Nidzilla list will loose handily to a decent Ork army.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!
Tau are screwed!
Markerlights work for 1 unit. So to get rid of their cover saves you need 3 to 4 markerlight hits per unit. MArkerlights hit on 4+ so Effectivly you need about 7 markerlights per-squad to get rid of the cover saves,
if you combine that with a full broadside squad thats likly only 2 killed... How many points was that Tau again,
ALOT!
Next turn you die!
I reckon some of the best options are Ironclad spam (works) and Large jetseer Unit -with singing spears, fortune, and mindwar (which chops warboss for leadership or painbot no FnP) singing spears are strength 9, if you cut the Painboy from mindwar (by arguing that he only uses leadership 7) they will suffer from the spears, then you charge with, wounding on 2's and your whole unit gets 4+ re-rollable inv.
You can run 2 of these units in a 1500 game..
So am I right in saying: "goodbye bikers!" ?

Nids have barbed stranglers on fexes and anything with implant attack. That really racks up the kill count.

I love how this always progresses from "How do I deal with Nob bikes?" to "How to deal with a maxxed out cheese unit of Nob bikes," to "How to deal with TWO units of cheesed out bikes," to "How to deal with two units of cheesed out bikes fielded by a 4-time GT winner."

Bear in mind that, while there are a lot of srs bizness 40k players on here, the OP was basically just asking what the fuss was about, and it has turned into yet another doom and gloom cheese thread about how the tourneys will be packed to the gills with them, blah blah blah. I am on 12 years of 40k now, and in my experience, 98% of the time, it is never as bad as the forums say it is, whether that forum be DakkaDakka, Warseer, the B&C, or any other.

Just my $.02

For my answer to the OP, the Nob bikers are one of the things that GW has given to Ork players as a way of saying "Thanks for sticking around with Orks through all that time when the only halfway viable competitive army was Speed Freeks, and even that was iffy."

adielubbe wrote:NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!
Tau are screwed!
Markerlights work for 1 unit. So to get rid of their cover saves you need 3 to 4 markerlight hits per unit. MArkerlights hit on 4+ so Effectivly you need about 7 markerlights per-squad to get rid of the cover saves,
if you combine that with a full broadside squad thats likly only 2 killed... How many points was that Tau again,
ALOT!
Next turn you die!
I reckon some of the best options are Ironclad spam (works) and Large jetseer Unit -with singing spears, fortune, and mindwar (which chops warboss for leadership or painbot no FnP) singing spears are strength 9, if you cut the Painboy from mindwar (by arguing that he only uses leadership 7) they will suffer from the spears, then you charge with, wounding on 2's and your whole unit gets 4+ re-rollable inv.
You can run 2 of these units in a 1500 game..
So am I right in saying: "goodbye bikers!" ?

Meh. Tau are NOT screwed.
My STANDARD List. One turn of shooting. Stealth Marker Squad will hit with an average 4 ML Hits. Every FW squad also has a Team Leader with ML and a HW Target Lock. I WILL have the Marker hits needed to negate the cover. My Elites choices are Helios Configuration Crisis Suits. Each Suit can take out a single nob by it's self. Fusion Blasters, Seeker Missles, and Railguns all cause Instant Death. All three also penetrate their armor, leaving the "supertough" Nob's unit with ONLY their Inv save. Good Tau Shooting CAN take out a Nob biker unit. Not only that, it can do so without 9 Broadsides on the board.

Nob bikers...

adielubbe wrote:NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!
Tau are screwed!
Markerlights work for 1 unit. So to get rid of their cover saves you need 3 to 4 markerlight hits per unit. MArkerlights hit on 4+ so Effectivly you need about 7 markerlights per-squad to get rid of the cover saves,
if you combine that with a full broadside squad thats likly only 2 killed... How many points was that Tau again,
ALOT!
Next turn you die!

You obviously haven't fought against Markerlight Heavy Tau. Which would be an army of at least 10 Markerlights on the table. Technically you only need three hits to strip the cover save down. Then the rest of the army cleans up.

Tau shooting is all about target priority and determining where to apply fire power and when. Yes, you may devote most of your army to one or two units, but you make sure those units are dead.

Centurian99 wrote:
Yep, Brian's as sick as I am of having people bring up bad counters to the nob bikers and declaring them to be effective, reliable tactics.

As I've said, unless you want to rely on ridiculous amounts of luck, you need to be able to do three things reliably.

#1 - Inflict S8+ wounds (or cause instant death)
#2 - Ignore/negate FNP
#3 - Ignore/negate the cover/armor save.

Armies that rely on shooting are more or less screwed, because they simply can't negate the cover save. The best they can get is two of three, which may work, or may not work, depending on luck. Odds are against it.

First off Cent, I've got respect for your posts and opinions. But I politely disagree. I humbly present my battle report as evidence that shooting armies with redonkulous amounts of firepower can beat nob bikers. My list in that matchup wasn't perfect. It could have easily included snikrot if it gave up the mirror match win. Whether or not it was perfectly tuned, it is a decent example of a nob biker list. It was very easily handled by an army with only 9 strength 8 shots.

The SAGs ignore FNP, and the kannons inflict ID, but I would say that the majority of the heavy lifting was done by the lootas and the charging shoota boys.

Darth really touched on what the biggest problem in the nob bikers translation from theoryhammer to warhammer. You don't really ever get to take 11 wounds without losing a model, you have to be super lucky, or be taking one or two wounds at a time from someone's MSU army.

And like Shane reminded everyone, after the unit has been softened, the equivalent shooting scoops the unit. If you can survive turn 2 decently intact, you can table this army.

To survive turn 2. deploy and maneuver as well as you can to mitigate multi-charges. Nob bikers always have cover so don't hesitate to spread your units as wide as possible and stack them. I know you and everyone else is tired of people giving tips without back up, but please refer to my batrep to see that it 'really happened'. A combination of terrain and good deployment bought my opponent just enough time to table me. It was a razors edge, if he failed to significantly damage the nob unit that consolidated off of his kannon unit, then he would have lost about 80% of his remaining army in a massive multi-charge. But he gave himself the time he needed.

Shep wrote:
First off Cent, I've got respect for your posts and opinions. But I politely disagree. I humbly present my battle report as evidence that shooting armies with redonkulous amounts of firepower can beat nob bikers. My list in that matchup wasn't perfect. It could have easily included snikrot if it gave up the mirror match win. Whether or not it was perfectly tuned, it is a decent example of a nob biker list. It was very easily handled by an army with only 9 strength 8 shots.

True, I read that. But lootas are something of a special case in my book...as far as I can tell, no other army can put out comparable firepower to a squad of lootas, at that points cost. Figuring in the Ork ballistic skill, lootas put out so many S7 shots that it isn't even funny. The other shooting from a shooty ork mob is just icing.

You're right, in that it's tough to use probability to model what happens when multi-shot weapons are firing at the nob bikers. But regardless, you still need the ability to cause lots and lots of saves. Orks with lootas can do that. but right now there's not really anything that compares to lootas in terms of volume of fire.

Would three vindicators and two masters of the chapter be a good counter? Its about the cost of a bike nob squad with warboss and drops 5 str10 ap2 pie plates on your first turn. Depending on deployment that could fairly easily wipe out the squad in one go couldn't it? After that all you would need to do is force them to assault a 10 man marine squad spaced at max coherency covering your army (~30" line) and then do the same thing the turn after, albeit with a little less firepower because the masters are one shot wonders. That would even leave you with another 750 or so points (assuming 1500 point game) to place into other units for transport/capture/tankshock/firepower.

Big templates don't get around the cover save or invul save. Sure, it'll hurt, but with making a 3+ or 4+ cover save and a 5+ invul save (AP2 = no FNP), you're still looking at loosing only a few nobz (say, 6 are hit - you're losing 1 or 2 models). You could dump all three templates onto the same unit and potentially wipe them out, but it's more likely that you only kill a few (like 3 or 4).

A lot of the trick is denying the multi-charge, and I think that is true throughout Fifth Ed. Since they get their own cover save, there is no reason not to put your units in long lines behind each other, and that would deny the multi-charge. They charge one unit, wipe it out. You have the problem of a unit of Nob bikers sitting in front of your army, but that's better than having them engaged with a unit - or having wiped out all units on one section of the board.

The way to get rid of Nob bikers is to evolve the meta-game. When every SM commander is packing TH/SS termies in a landraider, orks will stop taking Nob Bikers.

Big templates don't get around the cover save or invul save. Sure, it'll hurt, but with making a 3+ or 4+ cover save and a 5+ invul save (AP2 = no FNP), you're still looking at loosing only a few nobz (say, 6 are hit - you're losing 1 or 2 models). You could dump all three templates onto the same unit and potentially wipe them out, but it's more likely that you only kill a few (like 3 or 4).

1.5x5=7.5 dead. With 2.5 remaining it's statistically highly unlikely that both the warboss and painboy remain. If the warboss is gone then the unit will likely be pinned by the blasts (or it will just break or get tank shocked), if the painboy is gone then you can just bolter them to death. Keep in mind that the alpha strike here sits on top of the other half of our army, while the ork backfield is likely quite thin. If you deploy correctly the attrition fight against the remaining squad will be all too easy to win. Unfortunatly this army isn't in the marine top tier, so like most lists that can easily handle nob bikes, it would have trouble with other top tier entries.

I don't know why, but I made the mental error of a cover save and a invul save, not one or the other. So, 6 models hit, lose 2-3 after cover saves. Yeah, it'll hurt to drop 5 templates on them in one turn.

Anyone think of taking a Vindicare to snipe the Painboy? In fifth, he seems to have more utility. CSM Icons, painboys - even special characters like Telion. I don't know that he ever earns his points back, but it could make life uncomfortable for others.

It's a 700-point unit, it should be ugly.

The vindicare likely will never make his points back, but he's great for utility. He's kind of poor against the painboy though. It would take him all game to try and shoot him off his bike.

one thing I've noticed, is that some people are assuming that things that can deal with a single squad, or deal with under-sized squads, will scale up and work against the nob biker army.

It may...but chances are it won't. Because when you've got 10 models in the squad, including the warboss and painboy, and every model is unique, and every model has a 5++ save, and you've got at least four powerklaws backing up the warboss's klaw, and you've got two of these squads, which are Scoring units....

is that there's a world of difference between dealing with a small (5-6 models) squad of nob bikers, or even a single large squad of nob bikers, and the full out nob bikers army, with 2 squads of 10.

A single squad is much easier to deal with, and smaller biker squads are much, much easier to deal with.

dietrich wrote:
Anyone think of taking a Vindicare to snipe the Painboy? In fifth, he seems to have more utility. CSM Icons, painboys - even special characters like Telion. I don't know that he ever earns his points back, but it could make life uncomfortable for others.

Considering that his chance of actually hurting the painboy is somewhere around 13 percent, that's not such a good idea. Especially since he'll have to do that twice, unless he gets really lucky with one of his special shots.

Nah I'm talking about 2 squads of 10 bikes making up most of the army. I'm not saying they aren't a bitch to kill, just that a good Tau force with a compitent general behind it can do so.

It's a 700-point unit, it should be ugly.

We're taking about a 700 pt unit. That almost half an army in a 1500 pt battle.
The problem that the enemy has is that she generally cannot bring an equal amount of units (700 pt) to bear and to counter the Nobz Bikers (in one turn).

Centurian99 wrote:
We're not talking about the guy who takes a handful of bikers here, or the guy who only takes a single squad.

I propose to include them as well because I believe this is much more likely to happen in the vast majority of games. Hardly is every Ork player going to buy 20 Bikes and play that army only.

The thread title is Nob Bikers. You and others might assume one specific layout or you may not. People may chance upon Nob Bikers in your run-of-the-mill pickup game, in a tourney, at home against a friend or whatnot. Not everyone will be facing 20 Nobs all the time - tourneys are a relatively small minority of all games played, and even there some Ork players will field a horde. It is much more helpful to outline explicitly what would / could / might work in which circumstances.

Therefore, when someone asks whether "they are really that good", we must reply that sometimes they are, and sometimes they are not. I do not think this differentiation was made abundantly clear.

While, tough, those can be dealt with. We're talking about the ork player who's taking two squads of at least 10, including the painboy and warboss. Two is more than twice as tough to deal with. Remember, these Nob Biker Squads are TROOPS.

Yes, that's all true - except I'm still doubtful that the other layout cannot be dealt with as you seem to imply. I find Nob Bikers with serious support at least as dangerous as more Nob Bikers without any support. Usig them as a abit/sacrifice/lure that can suck up some serious firepower makes even smaller mobs valuable. Oh, and I did not forget that they are TROOPS at any point.

Negative, negative, negative. The only thing in that list that's worthwhile is the thunder hammer and perhaps the seer council. All those shooting weapons are essentially useless, because the only time they're shooting, they have to get past AT LEAST a 4+ cover save. Quite likely, they're trying to get through a 3+ cover save.

By the Primarchs, you ARE negative, aren't you? Really guys, it's been established that they are tough as nails by now. Oh yes, if the other player is an unparalleled master in multicharges, and a vaunted "top dog" in the tourney scene, and the other guy rolls abysmally, and the Orks shoot AND have a 3+ cover save at the same time, and never ever lose powerklaws, and suck up all the ID hits on the Warboss all the time - then we might as well concede and pack up.

Just looking at the stats and guns and list making is only half the story. They only get that 3+ cover save from turbo-boosting. As soon as they wish to assault or shoot something, they have a 4+ cover save. While that is good, it is nothing really special. It only becomes so powerful when combined with the rest. Feeding them sacrificial squads to take away the cover save is one way to try to tackle them. Take away FNP and armour and negate 2 wounds and T4/5 through S8/low AP, and you're looking at dead bikers.

#1 - There can be. I thought 20 bikers in 1500 was impossible, but someone showed me it could be done. You do only get three klaws on nobs per squad, but at 1500, it's not as much of a negative.

That's precisely my point - no-one seems to know about what kind of biker mob(s) we're actually talking. IF there are indeed that many bikers in such comparatively small games, then they are not that strong. They're still as tough as it gets but much more easy to handle because they've got no support and one can concentrate everything on them. Couple them with Snikrot, Lootas and whatnot and they become much more threatening even with reduced numbers.

#2 - Ordnance is so-near to being useless that its not even funny. With the cover save, you kill one or two bikers, max. Then they multicharge your screen away, and you get to kill another one or two bikers. Then your ordnance tanks all die.

You're so frightened of the Nobs that you've already given in it appears. There are ways around the better cover save, and beware if they should ever fail a Ld test afterwards (even if that isn't likely). How many do you think one would hit with a Battlecannon (or even better, S10)?

Multi-charge my screens, set up one behind the other? "All my ordnance tanks die"? You mean the ones set up on different sides of the board?

Pray tell, do they grow wings as well? One squad turbo-boosts, I shoot and kill 1-2 (and that's a worst case scenario because I actually reckon there'll be three tanks). They charge the first squad and defeat it, thereby taking away the cover save. I shoot again, killing 2-3. They charge the second squad and defeat it. I shoot and kill another 2-3. And then I probably still have the points for a third and fourth squad. It isn't difficult to field 6 squads and 3 ordnance tanks as Guard (one as a back-up for misses) in 1500 points. Not at all. The same thing happens in the other corner, or he concentrates his bikes and bunches up. And I still haven't used my third tank in this scenario because it's kept in reserve to appear wherever needed, nor did any of my meltas/lascannon/whatever in the squads get to shoot. Now Kill Points would be hard but so would be a 5 objective mission.

Remember, there's two of these squads that you have to deal with.

There's also 80+ men in screens and 3 ordnance tanks they have to deal with (and probably even more on their way towards the objectives). And that army isn't a one trick pony tailored to do one trick only either.

If you had five-six turns to shell the nob bikers, massed ordnance fire might be able to do the trick. But you've got to plan on only having one or two turns max.

I demonstrated how that can work. I don't presume that it works all the time. And no, I don't plan on having only one turn to do anything. In that case, there's no point in even setting up. That's simply not how it works. One must instead plan to have more turns to do anything useful (even though full awareness of what one is up against never hurts).

#1 - Inflict S8+ wounds (or cause instant death)
#2 - Ignore/negate FNP
#3 - Ignore/negate the cover/armor save.

Ordnance inflicts S8+ wounds and causes ID.
Ordnances negates FNP.
Ordnance doesn't negate cover saves. However, I believe as long as you can cancel two of their three strengths, you could do well.

I really fail to understand why such a thing that does what you ask of it to such a degree can be called unreliable and ineffective. Perhaps you can elucidate. What ridiculous amount of luck do I need in setting up in such a fashion and blast away?

Centurian99 wrote:one thing I've noticed, is that some people are assuming that things that can deal with a single squad, or deal with under-sized squads, will scale up and work against the nob biker army.

It may...but chances are it won't. Because when you've got 10 models in the squad, including the warboss and painboy, and every model is unique, and every model has a 5++ save, and you've got at least four powerklaws backing up the warboss's klaw, and you've got two of these squads, which are Scoring units....

A single squad is much easier to deal with, and smaller biker squads are much, much easier to deal with.

I'm sure they are - on their own. That goes without saying, doesn't it? Everything is easier to deal with in small amounts. In these cases though you cannot ignore the other units the Ork player brought along. Oh, and the 5++ save isn't really that great, especially when they get a better cover save.

By the way, the Warboss still doesn't get FNP despite some heated debate. :-)

ITT:


We all get it, they're good. Easiest way to defeat the list? Hit them in the comp and sportsmanship score after the game.

inb4 bawwing about how soft scores are broken, etc.

Wow what a dicussion :O!

With all this discussion on how impossible the standard 20 Nob Bikers are, and how to counter them, when do you think the pendulum will swing the other way, and we'll start seeing a little more variety in the Nob Bike lists. Several people that I play with have started downgrading to just 1 squad of 10 and stacking more bodies(loota spam) as everyone else scrambles do deal with the bikes.

That's the nature of the metagame. When all the marines are bringing Vulkan, 2x LRs, and TH/SS termies, (for less points than 20 nob bikers), you'll see them a lot less.

Illeix wrote:Yesterday, I was at an apoc game with 11 players, and someone brought 2 squads of Noob Bikers.

They chewed through 40 guardsmen, 20 tac marines, 6 terminators and were about halfway through a titan before a squadron of russes finally got into range.

Overpowered? That's a resounding yes!

only 40 guardsmen? what's that, like 15 points of models?

The one thing I want to add to all this is a comment about the guy who said to hit them where it hurts....in the sportsmenship. I hate guys like this! Cry, you got beat and now you want to get even. Guys like this get kicked out of tournies where I play. Thats all I have to say.....

brian007 wrote:The one thing I want to add to all this is a comment about the guy who said to hit them where it hurts....in the sportsmenship. I hate guys like this! Cry, you got beat and now you want to get even. Guys like this get kicked out of tournies where I play. Thats all I have to say.....

Then I'd personally be ashamed to play tournaments there. Sportsmanship has a place in this game, Win at all costs mindset should be frowned upon. This is a hobby, meant to be fun for everyone, not just a game, meant to be won or lost.

Sportsmanship is great when everybody's a sportsman, but against so many players, especially strangers, it quickly becomes the "Did you beat me and how much do I want to stick it to you" score. There' a place for sportsmanship as a quantifiable effect, but it's on the margins as a tiebreaker-only sort of thing.

Likewise I don't think playing an Internet-Deck list makes you a poor sport or even a bad gamer. Maybe, just maybe, they simply find the most enjoyment out of this kind of list. It's also quite possible that they thought it up themselves.

I agree with sourclams and what he said. What I was saying is this. When you go to a tourny you sould want to play against the best, thats why it is a tourny. So if the guy you are playing is a fun guy to play with and he happens to have a better list than you and he wins why would you give him a low score for sportsmanship? Bunker said that is the way to beat this list and to me I am sorry to say that sucks! Now every game store has one of those guys who has to win and even in fun mess around games they have to bring the best. I agree that sucks and it would be your choice not to play with that guy and he would get the picture. BUT if you go to a tourny you should know that the best is going to be there and you may play it. I have been beat by real good lists and as long as I enjoyed the game (I do not have to win to have fun) I will give a good score. It sounds to me that Mr Sportsman Bunker is a poor sport and that is how he "gets even" for not being able to win. Fun games in the game store are great but there is a time and a place to play your best and win. I will find it very hard to believe anyone who says they pay to get into a tourny and brings a list that is just for fun that they can't win with. Anyway, win or loose it is always fun for me as long as the other player is fun to play against.

brian007 wrote:The one thing I want to add to all this is a comment about the guy who said to hit them where it hurts....in the sportsmenship. I hate guys like this! Cry, you got beat and now you want to get even. Guys like this get kicked out of tournies where I play. Thats all I have to say.....

Yep, you beat me with a flavor of the month army whos list you put no effort into yourself. I must be a crybaby because you can't build your own lists. Sucks to be me.

Sorry, you bring an army you didn't build to a tournament and I'm going to hit you in your Comp. scores. You act like a dick while you beat me or gloat about your army? I'm gonna hit you in your Sportsmanship. There's a very fine line between powergaming and bringing someone else's list to the tournament. You do the first, I'll be the first to shake your hand and call it a good game, you do the latter and you can cry to a judge about why your scores from me were so low.


Your tournament turnout must be terrible. But I think it may be more because of your attitude than because you "kick them out"

sourclams wrote:

Likewise I don't think playing an Internet-Deck list makes you a poor sport or even a bad gamer.

It does, however, make you terribly unoriginal, and that's why I would gladly give someone a 0 for comp if they brought a list that they obviously didn't build to a tournament

And what if they actually thought it up themself, since they've got all the access to the exact same resources and some of these lists are painfully obvious? It didn't exactly take a genius to look at the Tyranid dex and go 'hey, 8 Monstrous Creatures might be pretty good'

Regardless I'd certainly give you a 0 for sportsmanship for being such a grognard.

See how stupid these "soft" scores are?

sourclams wrote:
Regardless I'd certainly give you a 0 for sportsmanship for being such a grognard.

So you get a 0 for being unoriginal, I get a 0 because you feel like being a jagoff because you're butthurt that you brought the most unoriginal list possible and people won't give you credit for it?

Works for me I suppose.

By all means, if this is a GT, bring whatever list you want. For a local tournament for a little bit of store credit, is bringing a list like this really necessary?


And yes, soft scores are stupid. I won't argue there. I;m just saying that people are going to resent being absolutely roflstomped by a list like Nob bikers in a small, local tournament.

What does Sportsmanship have to do with List Composition?

Tanking someone in both because you dislike their list is not how the system works.

You may as well tank someone's sportsmanship because you don't think their army is painted well, in addition to giving them a bad painting score.

I think a C'tan would get crushed by a squad of nob bikers.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I think a C'tan would get crushed by a squad of nob bikers.

G

Definitely, he would.

nooB BIKERS... guys... not sportsmanship

nooB BIKERS... guys... not sportsmanship

Orkeosaurus wrote:What does Sportsmanship have to do with List Composition?

Tanking someone in both because you dislike their list is not how the system works.

But that's the point. That is exactly how the system does work. You can knock a soft score for any reason you please - including just not liking having lost to them.

Soft scores are grief scores. Players should not be given a system that encourages griefing.

You may as well tank someone's sportsmanship because you don't think their army is painted well, in addition to giving them a bad painting score.

Again, this is completely legitimate - as an individual may very well consdier it unsporting to show up with an army that isn't painted well. It can be esaily percieved as a lack of interest or effort when others have tried so much harder. If a player can concieve of it, it is a legitimate reason to knock the score.

The best tournaments I've attended had no comp or sports score given by the players. These scores were instead given by the judges and organizers.

You can tank soft scores at your own discretion. I would not knock someone because they brought a list I don't enjoying playing against. To be honest it is how a person plays how I score their sportsmanship. I have said I don't like nob bikers but on the other hand I like the challenge they bring to the table. I don't think it is fluffy when people field two squads though and I would mark them lower on their composition. It could be a fantastic looking army well painted and with a lot of conversions.

G

Democratus wrote:
But that's the point. That is exactly how the system does work. You can knock a soft score for any reason you please - including just not liking having lost to them.

Soft scores are grief scores. Players should not be given a system that encourages griefing.

That's not how it's supposed to work then.

Again, this is completely legitimate - as an individual may very well consdier it unsporting to show up with an army that isn't painted well. It can be esaily percieved as a lack of interest or effort when others have tried so much harder. If a player can concieve of it, it is a legitimate reason to knock the score.

What is and is not a "legitimate" reason is subjective, but I would think the presence of a score for painting would rule out the basing of sportsmanship on your opponent's paintjob. You're playing dumb if you wonder if the sportsmanship score is for painting too.

You could knock it down anyway, but that's not the intention of the sportsmanship score. It's one thing to say it's a bad system, it's another to say going against intention of the system in order to spite people who beat is ethical.

The best tournaments I've attended had no comp or sports score given by the players. These scores were instead given by the judges and organizers.

I agree.

Soft scores aren't particularly worthwhile. Even if people aren't trying to spite each other, you end with hugely different standards of judging.

Someone might play a decent game, go "no problems with that guy," and give him 5 out of 5 for doing nothing wrong.

Someone else might play a decent game, go "no problems with that guy," and give him 3 out of 5 for it being a regular game with no issues..

Bunker wrote:

sourclams wrote:
Regardless I'd certainly give you a 0 for sportsmanship for being such a grognard.

By all means, if this is a GT, bring whatever list you want. For a local tournament for a little bit of store credit, is bringing a list like this really necessary?

Apparently. Me personally, I'm about to double lash my way to a couple of slices of pizza and a free package of bases! Wooooooooohoooo!


I'm actually siding with Sourclams. In theory, he's making very good points - that the gaming community will police themselves and everyone will drop their bolters and hold hands sing hymns for the emperor.

But that doesn't really happen. There is always one dick ruining a scoring system, whether he be the dude who says "WTF YOU SLAM MY NON INTERNET BUT ITS INTERNET LITS I SLAM U BAC KLOLOLOL" or the dude who slams the "obviously internet list that the other duder didn't build" and so forth.

In a perfect world, free of human bias and emotions I would be all about a soft score. However, in the real world where you can get bad scores just because you won a game... well I wouldn't want anything to do with that system.

My personal take is - just know what kind of tournament you're getting yourself into. If it's a beer and pretzels, nothing on the line one why not take a softer army and have some fun? I'm personally not interested in walking all over the kid who moves his squads up the field in little clusters, backwards.. you know?

So are we all in agreement here that soft scores are stupid, powergaming in a "fun" tournament isn't really necessary, and that as gamers we should all hold hands and sing Joy to the World while we make s'mores over a campfire?

Ahh the eventual conclusion of most overpowered unit discussion: "I'll just tank their soft scores!"

It just makes me laugh that my ones downtrodden Orks of 3rd Ed now have on the most abusive "Small Model Count Armies" in 5th, and are on the same level of hatred of Nidzilla & Mech Eldar in 4th.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Ahh the eventual conclusion of most overpowered unit discussion: "I'll just tank their soft scores!"

It just makes me laugh that my ones downtrodden Orks of 3rd Ed now have on the most abusive "Small Model Count Armies" in 5th, and are on the same level of hatred of Nidzilla & Mech Eldar in 4th.

You're a page late, chief.

tau wouldnt have too much of a problem if you plan it right and prepare for the charge. Hit them up with markerlights to reduce the cover save, then fire with broadsides or hammerheads to ignore feel no pain and instant death, also, if you have plasma rifle and fusion blaster wielding crisis suits, blast away, the fusion will do a lot of damage, being instant death for the 4 base T nob and the plasma rifle will ignore the armor and wound on a 3+, not the best against them but still pretty good,

also if you can run a devilfish in the way of them to slow them down, fire warriors focussing can do a little damage.

A scary situation, but with some planning you can counter them, just watch out for the rest of his boyz running up behind them

Yeah, my bad, tau would do alright against the ARCH ENEMY (wohohoh)
LOL =P