Plausible sounding Dark Eldar rumours posted by Bloodknight over on Warseer

Some rumours that I read on 40KFanworld (a German 40K forum) - take with a grain of salt (it's not a wishlist, but was posted by a user who claims to have spoken with someone in England who's supposed to be in the know):

(translation: me, stuff in brackets: also me)



Codex release in October 09 or maybe Jan 2010



Planned are new Warriors, Raiders, Lords, Mandrakes and Scourges, the rest follows in 2010

Talos and Grotesques removed from the Codex. Might get a replacement in form of slave units, of which one could be Hrud warriors.


Many DE units can outflank or have vehicles with a flyer-like rule.


Raiders around 35 points, armament unknown. They have a a form of night shield that works like a searchlight. (I guess the original poster got this wrong, though. Wouldn't Night Fighting rules make more sense?)

Mandrakes can infiltrate, get poisoned weapons and a champion upgrade.

Only two Lord variants, but there could be other HQ choices as well.


5-6 Special characters, one is some kind of soul collector.

Scourges get Skyleap (or Intercept, I am not sure about the German nomenclature of the Swooping Hawk powers) and Hit&Run, get only assault weapons and can got to ground after shooting.


No psychic powers but "arcane arts". Effect unclear.


Warriors stay at the current points cost and gain a CCW and assault grenades.


There will be only one heavy weapon that can be fired in 3 modes: 12" S9 AP1, 24" S8 AP3, 36" S7 AP3.

Splinter weapons have a max of 18" range and are poisoned.

Webway portal removed, but similar devices will be there that allow DE units to emerge in proximity.

Reavers cheaper and better. A special character allows all DE units that can take a Raider to replace it with jetbikes.

DE will not be Chaos Eldar, but more pirate-like.

There will be no Harlequins, but some kind of Assassin.


I won't comment this, and as I said, take it with a huge pile of salt, especially since the Codex is still pretty far away - just take a look at how little is really known about the IG codex currently, and that will be released in roughly 3 months...

Talos and Grotesques removed from the Codex. Might get a replacement in form of slave units, of which one could be Hrud warriors.

Strange.. I have heard that the Talos has been re-done by Jes.... W&S

A lot of this is kind of hard to swallow, especially the removal of the talos and the multigun.

Yeah, grab the salt shaker, this is really sketchy at best.

Sounds more like a dumbed down Codex like Dark Angels.

Splinter weapons being poisoned would make sense though.

I like this. Translated third hand rumours. They sound perfectly legitimate although there is alot of skepticism in this thread (mainly because of some units being dropped).

Yeahhhhh that multi-use gun would be the best weapon in 40k by a wide margin.

I know for a fact that the Talos is not being removed so the trustworthiness of the rest of these rumors are immediately suspect for me.

The multi-use gun seems incredibly bland. I know GW has suddenly gotten scared of variety and creativity because of tourney players yelling at them, but would they go so far as to make an army literally have one heavy weapon? Thats preposterous. I like the idea of multi-purpose weapons but they aren't any reason to get rid of everything else.

If dark Lances were to changed to assault, wouldn't that only leave the dark eldar one heavy weapon, the Disintegrator, anyway? The eldar equivalent, the bright lance, is an assault weapon. Also, the disintegrator already has multiple fire modes....

[EDIT] and from the information on the fire modes available i wouldn't consider it as good as the Railgun, earthshaker, demolisher, particle whip, battlecannon, or even the lascannon.

I also can't see the Talos being dropped, as they're centrepiece models for the army. The grotesques however are very forgettable.

There is no way GW would drop Talos,

Also them droping the HW and replacing them with one milti use gun would be redundant, It would ither end up WAY over powered or complete trash.

Leggy wrote:If dark Lances were to changed to assault, wouldn't that only leave the dark eldar one heavy weapon, the Disintegrator, anyway? The eldar equivalent, the bright lance, is a HEAVY weapon. Also, the disintegrator already has multiple fire modes....

[EDIT] and from the information on the fire modes available i wouldn't consider it as good as the Railgun, earthshaker, demolisher, particle whip, battlecannon, or even the lascannon.

I also can't see the Talos being dropped, as they're centrepiece models for the army. The grotesques however are very forgettable.

Fixed your post.

Well it's good to hear that the Talos will still be intact.

The multi-shot weapon...perhaps the Disintegrator in a different form?

Though the rest of the stuff sounds pretty cool though.

at least we can pretty much guess they have not been squatted. they are featured in the DOW: soulstorm game and they have a big part in the new word bearer novel. i am just wondering what they updated look will be i have so many of the older ones who have been languishing in the box of doom for almost 5 years now(since 4th edition came out)

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

Leggy wrote:If dark Lances were to changed to assault, wouldn't that only leave the dark eldar one heavy weapon, the Disintegrator, anyway? The eldar equivalent, the bright lance, is a HEAVY WEAPON THAT FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES FOLLOWS THE ASSAULT WEAPON RULES. Also, the disintegrator already has multiple fire modes....

[EDIT] and from the information on the fire modes available i wouldn't consider it as good as the Railgun, earthshaker, demolisher, particle whip, battlecannon, or even the lascannon.

I also can't see the Talos being dropped, as they're centrepiece models for the army. The grotesques however are very forgettable.

Fixed your post.

Well i fixed it more fixyer, i think. Is there any time the Bright lance isn't mounted on a heavy weapon platform or vehicle?

When a wraithlord has it!

So we have rumors that are potentially unreliable based on secret information?

Great.

Leggy wrote:Well i fixed it more fixyer, i think. Is there any time the Bright lance isn't mounted on a heavy weapon platform or vehicle?

Nope, you didn't fix it because Dark Eldar at the present time don't have weapon platforms.

JohnHwangDD wrote:So we have rumors that are potentially unreliable based on secret information?

Great.

I know, I love rumors that come from some one that found at at this place who got it from some one who heard it from this guy that is real tight with GW.

Hrud would be nice, but hell, pinch of salt here. I'm not getting my hopes up.

I'm not against multi-mode weapons, but if that is all they will have for heavy weapons, you can expect that you will either be disadvantaged with a weapon overcosted for its versatility or overbalanced by cheap obliterator equivalents everywhere.

Presently DE have no gun that can destroy a Necron Monolith or a Land Raider with that upgrade that nullifies Lance weapons' bonus. Something S9 AP1 solves this problem... And if Splinter Cannons are poisonous, that makes them 836,592 times more worth using. You could actually start pointing them at Carnifexes and Wraithlords. Awesome.

Archonate wrote:Presently DE have no gun that can destroy a Necron Monolith or a Land Raider with that upgrade that nullifies Lance weapons' bonus. Something S9 AP1 solves this problem... And if Splinter Cannons are poisonous, that makes them 836,592 times more worth using. You could actually start pointing them at Carnifexes and Wraithlords. Awesome.

Currently a dark Lance could kill a Lith, Living metal only stops weapons from getting an EXTRA die for Pen, the Lance just lowers the AV

JokerGod wrote:

Archonate wrote:Presently DE have no gun that can destroy a Necron Monolith or a Land Raider with that upgrade that nullifies Lance weapons' bonus. Something S9 AP1 solves this problem... And if Splinter Cannons are poisonous, that makes them 836,592 times more worth using. You could actually start pointing them at Carnifexes and Wraithlords. Awesome.

Currently a dark Lance could kill a Lith, Living metal only stops weapons from getting an EXTRA die for Pen, the Lance just lowers the AV

Nah, read it again. The Monolith also prevents lance weapons from reducing it's AV. Which means they can only glance it. And glances can no longer result in "Destroyed"

Sure they can - you just need to strip *ALL*l of the weapons *and* Immobilize the 'Lith first.

Is that even possible? The flux arc only loses 1 shot per weapon destroyed result from its d6 shots. Does that mean you would have to get 6 weapon destroyed results AND immobilize it, through armor 14 with S8 weapons? Good luck doing that.

Railguns wrote:Is that even possible? The flux arc only loses 1 shot per weapon destroyed result from its d6 shots. Does that mean you would have to get 6 weapon destroyed results AND immobilize it, through armor 14 with S8 weapons? Good luck doing that.

There are only 5 Guns on the Lith. 4 of the D6 hits, once all 4 are removed it can no longer fire. The big gun can't be destroyed so for damage stacking it doesn't count, so you could blow it up on glances, it is just impractical and better to just kill everything els and ignore it.

Nobody said it would be *easy*...

If it was easy Necrons would lose there only good chance at winning :p

JokerGod wrote:

Railguns wrote:Is that even possible? The flux arc only loses 1 shot per weapon destroyed result from its d6 shots. Does that mean you would have to get 6 weapon destroyed results AND immobilize it, through armor 14 with S8 weapons? Good luck doing that.

There are only 5 Guns on the Lith. 4 of the D6 hits, once all 4 are removed it can no longer fire. The big gun can't be destroyed so for damage stacking it doesn't count, so you could blow it up on glances, it is just impractical and better to just kill everything els and ignore it.

Since when does not being able to be destroyed not count for damage stacking? As always, the best way (currently) for Dark Eldar to beat Necrons is to beat them in Assault and phase them out. Works well for me.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozymandias wrote:

JokerGod wrote:

Railguns wrote:Is that even possible? The flux arc only loses 1 shot per weapon destroyed result from its d6 shots. Does that mean you would have to get 6 weapon destroyed results AND immobilize it, through armor 14 with S8 weapons? Good luck doing that.

There are only 5 Guns on the Lith. 4 of the D6 hits, once all 4 are removed it can no longer fire. The big gun can't be destroyed so for damage stacking it doesn't count, so you could blow it up on glances, it is just impractical and better to just kill everything els and ignore it.

Since when does not being able to be destroyed not count for damage stacking? As always, the best way (currently) for Dark Eldar to beat Necrons is to beat them in Assault and phase them out. Works well for me.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

If it can't be removed it doesn't count for weapon destroyed so it is bypassed.

Fighting the lith is not a smart move for most, but some people like to try

JokerGod wrote:
If it can't be removed it doesn't count for weapon destroyed so it is bypassed.

Is this something I missed in the BGB or the Necrons FAQ? If so, page number please?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Even still, managing enough weapon destroyed results and an immobilized result all in approx. 6 turns is so difficult you may as well write it off as a possibility.

By the RAW you cannot destroy a monolith through glancing hits as there is always one functioning weapon that cannot be destroyed and despite what Jokergod has been saying there are no rules stating you ignore such a weapon and inflict immobilization instead. Only when all weapons on a vehicle have been destroyed is this true.


And back onto the topic of there only being one heavy weapon in the army:

Again, I know for a fact they have designed (re-designed) the style of the Dark Lance and the Splinter Cannon so unless they've gone insane and decided to make different weapons behave the same I safely think you can throw this particular "rumor" into the trash heap.

Now, perhaps they were talking about the Disintegrator, which already had multiple firing modes? I don't buy the stats in this rumor thread for that weapon but I guess it would be possible for it to gain a third firing mode, although I don't really see it happening.

Maybe it was misheard and they meant to say "There is one heavy weapon with 3 firing modes"? It does look like an upgraded disintegrator.

I was looking over at the Warseer thread to try and filter out how accurate this rumor is. Brimstone, who also posts here and has yet to be wrong with his rumors at least as far as I've observed, said,

"Some of these rumours are incorrect and others I don't know about but the inconsistencies do cast doubt on the others. "

In other words, I wouldn't put much stock into this list of rumors.

I'm dying to know if Ahra will be one of the new Special Characters. Eldar get their phoenix lords. DE only have 1. Just give him to us!
And I'll be very happy if all the rumors about Mandrakes becoming powerful are true. All this time I've been of the opinion that they had so much coolness potential, but in the game they never measured up to their fluff. Presently they are such a crappy bare-bones unit it's unbelievable that they're an Elite choice. In Dawn of War their upgrades are so good that you can actually play an all-mandrake game. That game does them justice. I hope the new codex does as well since they are probably my favorite type of Dark Eldar. The most evil of the evil.

Exactly why my Avatar is Kheradruakh, the Mandrake Champion himself.

The decapitator? The guy who not only didn't get a miniature but also no proper description on his weapon that reads like some large pair of siscors?

He could have been so cool had GW not just forgotten what they do for a living and actually GAVE HIM A MINIATURE!

Anyway, why no Harlequins? Didn't one of the design team say that they would appear in the new DE codex when*cough*if*cough* one was ever written?

Unless the Assassin is the Solitaire?

Keep the Wych SC (Forgot her name and can't find the codex ATM), and new, BETTER Wych minis and they will convince me to go back to the army that brought me into 40k right before they said 'fu*k you' and left them floundering for a total of eleven years whilst they make more Spasse Mahreens* codices then units in the DE army codex.

*Nothing aginst SM, having 1000pts myself but I do get tired of the SM wankery whilst every army I decide to collect is forgotten about as GW fails epicly.

I had actually heard about the outflanking thing from a few sources. This would be so cool and work so well in this army...and meet the fluff!! Do we know if they are continuing the wych cult style army though?

Yeah the glass-cannon ,confusion and chaos side of the army would really be served well with outflank. Having certain sections showup suddenly from the flanks and rip big holes in the enemy lines would definitely be fun, even though this would be balanced with extreme fragility.

Heh well the fragility is there now...just add the outflank heheh

Archonate wrote:but in the game they never measured up to their fluff

OK, so this is unusual? Take a ticket and join the line...

Hrud would be cool.
Also gargoyles (whatever the ugly guys who experiment on themselves) need help
I doubt they would change the fluff though...

Hrud would be cool. But the Hrud should be Tau allies, not Dark Eldar.

Tribune wrote:

Archonate wrote:but in the game they never measured up to their fluff

OK, so this is unusual? Take a ticket and join the line...

Nothing is as underwhelming with its fluff to tabletop ratio as Mandrakes. Sorry, but they are crappy far beyond simply trying to maintain balance...

The Dark Eldar overhaul will be as good as the Woodelf overhaul... and we know how they looked before and after the new army book.

Greets
Schepp himself

You know, I get the feeling that it will be like getting a completely new army. DE as we know them will be squatted, and the new DE will be so far from what they were, that only in name will we recognize them.

Archonate wrote:You know, I get the feeling that it will be like getting a completely new army. DE as we know them will be squatted, and the new DE will be so far from what they were, that only in name will we recognize them.

You know, I think I would still be ok with that. Does anyone know if the drugs and their random tables will still exist in this new book? I hope so, but we know GW doesn't like any random-ness creeping into their dice-based game.

Dark eldar will be so chaotic and evil that they have to roll all of their special rules on a D6 after deployment...because randomness is evil and cooool!

Greets
Schepp himself

For example, you will roll 1 d6 twice for two army waide abilities. On a 1 or 2 of either, every weapon in the army has Gets Hot!. Because they use dark matter, the Gets Hot rule will work as in 4th edition:every shot makes it easier to burn yourself. Splinter Cannons will now kill you on a 4 or less.

Railguns wrote:For example, you will roll 1 d6 twice for two army waide abilities. On a 1 or 2 of either, every weapon in the army has Gets Hot!. Because they use dark matter, the Gets Hot rule will work as in 4th edition:every shot makes it easier to burn yourself. Splinter Cannons will now kill you on a 4 or less.

Are you serious? I think you must have swallowed some paint.

Archonate wrote:You know, I get the feeling that it will be like getting a completely new army. DE as we know them will be squatted, and the new DE will be so far from what they were, that only in name will we recognize them.

I agree Archonate. I think the DE we will be seeing released will be drastically different then the ones we know.

What makes me curious is why they sent the first set of rules the wrote for the re-release back for a total make-over.

Don't worry Asmy, it's just a joke.




Or is it?

I just hope they won't become "Chaos Eldar" or something lame like that...

Nah, they'll just be the Eldar with the dark hats.

Talos was the only cool thing DE had going , its really weird to be removed...

See I WANT Chaos Eldar. I always thought that would be sweet.

Gobstomp420 wrote:

Archonate wrote:You know, I get the feeling that it will be like getting a completely new army. DE as we know them will be squatted, and the new DE will be so far from what they were, that only in name will we recognize them.

You know, I think I would still be ok with that. Does anyone know if the drugs and their random tables will still exist in this new book? I hope so, but we know GW doesn't like any random-ness creeping into their dice-based game.

Oh I'm not saying it's a bad thing at all. They'll still have everything the fans love about them. We're just not used to Dark Eldar having so much to work with...

Don't know about the drugs. I could see them making you choose one type of drug for a squad, and paying a given amount of points for it, instead of rolling for a random one for free. That would give the DE players the unfamiliar sensation of having options...

No they'll probably repeat the smashing success of the possessed Chaos Marines by giving them the exact same chart that you roll on after deployment but renaming all of the effects.

BrookM wrote:Nah, they'll just be the Eldar with the dark hats.

There won't be any regular models released for Dark Eldar. Instead, GW will pull all the existing DE models from the line and produce a sprue of black hats that will be used to convert regular Eldar models into Dark Eldar.

All Dark Eldar armies must be lead by their new special character, "The Eldar with No Name." He will basically be Maugan Ra with a top hat.

LunaHound wrote:Talos was the only cool thing DE had going , its really weird to be removed...

Yeah, the Talos is cool.

Good thing these rumors are fake.
____

Scottywan82 wrote:See I WANT Chaos Eldar. I always thought that would be sweet.

It'd give a better conceptual basis for the army, that's for sure.
____

Hordini wrote:There won't be any regular models released for Dark Eldar. Instead, GW will pull all the existing DE models from the line and produce a sprue of black hats that will be used to convert regular Eldar models into Dark Eldar.

All Dark Eldar armies must be lead by their new special character, "The Eldar with No Name." He will basically be Maugan Ra with a top hat.

Actually, Dark Eldar infantry could be designed to be constructed similarly to Space Marines with a core sprue and then Warrior / Scourge / whatever option sprues... I think a lot pf potential exists in this kind of approach.

Really? A friend has been convincing me that the Talos is pretty silly. I tend to agree. A slow skimmer with random shooting and a skinned guy plugged into the tail. Oh, and apparently it swallows people too. Into a cavity that, if it has room to hold a person, would suggest that the whole Talos is hollow.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:See I WANT Chaos Eldar. I always thought that would be sweet.

It'd give a better conceptual basis for the army, that's for sure.

Ugh. I disagree emphatically. I think it would betray an excruciating lack of imagination on GWs part. It's so bothersome that some people insist that everything evil in 40k, HAS to be tied to chaos somehow. A little monotonous, don't you think? Personally, I think Dark Eldar add breadth to the selection of evil armies. I find them appealing because of how much more raw their sadism is. They don't have some Chaos deity overpowering their minds and compelling them to do horrible things. They do horrible things because feeding their thirst for tortured souls makes them giddy and smiley-warm deep inside. I see Chaos as a gaggle of idiotic automatons in the service of some God. (no offense if that's your cup of tea) Dark Eldar serve no Gods. They serve nobody but themselves. In fact they do what they do specifically to avoid feeding Slaanesh, whom they despise.

The concept of Chaos Eldar, in fact, makes absolutely no sense and is not consistent with the story of The Fall as it's told by GW today. Which explains why you've heard nothing about such a faction since 2nd edition, and why GW is trying to pull DE further and further from chaos. Some people just stubbornly refuse to go along with it because, for some reason, they're offended by the notion of an evil that has nothing to do with Chaos...

GW forces don't need to display much imagination at all, so Chaos Eldar fits right in with the rest of the 40k universe far better than the current "Dark" Eldar, which are more "Emo" Eldar / "Goth" Eldar.

JohnHwangDD wrote:GW forces don't need to display much imagination at all, so Chaos Eldar fits right in with the rest of the 40k universe far better than the current "Dark" Eldar,

Only if you're one of those people who loves monotony and lack of depth. Which is fine with me if you are. But I'm not. And I think you're wrong about GW being okay with a lack of imagination.

JohnHwangDD wrote:which are more "Emo" Eldar / "Goth" Eldar.

Not really, you just don't like them. A common trait among people who know absolutely nothing about them.

Nope, I own the *ORIGINAL* Dark Eldar Codex, along some of the first minis ever made for the army.

But yeah, *clearly*, the FAILDAR Emo/Goth approach is a resounding success that shouldn't be tampered with, lest GW lose both of you remaining Dark Eldar players...

JohnHwangDD wrote:Nope, I own the *ORIGINAL* Dark Eldar Codex, along some of the first minis ever made for the army.

But yeah, *clearly*, the FAILDAR Emo/Goth approach is a resounding success that shouldn't be tampered with, lest GW lose both of you remaining Dark Eldar players...

wow...someone doesn't like Dark Eldar much, but your not alone, most people don't like them much as it is now from my pov.

Chaos Eldar = Dumb
Pirate Eldar = Cool (which coincidentally GW and the BL have been putting a lot of time and effort for years to steer their lore heavily in this direction)

I like this new direction if even some of the rumors are true. I particularly like the extra ccw warriors would get and I always felt that splinter rifle weapons would be suited better as assault 18" weapons instead of rapid fire 24" ones, because of the constant move style of the army. And any idea about having an assault type dark lance is all win in my eyes.

I don't see them getting rid of the Talos either or maybe even Grotesques. Both of these are part of the homunculus (sp?) lore and breaths some depth into the codex. And I do use these units from time to time, however I would love to see the grotesques get new rules, funny they are a CC only unit and yet suck at it too. They are only good if and only if you combine them with an assault from other assault units....like they weren't really thought out too well originally.

Except that they aren't just Eldar pirates. There are other Eldar pirates that aren't depraved like the DE.

We've talked about this before, but IMO the DE background right now is cutting it. Piracy isn't a motivation in of itself. And their status as Eldar-who-act-like-Slaanesh-worshippers-but-aren't is just too convoluted. The best themes are usually the simple ones, and that's why most other armies have a more iconic background.

Now, recenter their background around them being soul vampires (an aspect of their fluff which is currently underdeveloped IMO), and suddenly they have a real motivation and a lot of other things fall into place.

Exactly my point and very well put gorgon.

Being a pirate isn't a motivation in and of itself. You have to want something. A pirate is just someone who takes what doesn't belong to him/her and usually by force. The question is the motivation.

And sense 3rd edition when they were introduced in codex form they have long since had the motivation to torture for the sake of salvation. A great page in the codex talks about Uriel being the first to discover how they can save themselves through the depravity of others and since then several millennium latter they themselves are so used to doing what they do have nearly forgotten the why they do it in the first place. This has always been pretty weak sauce IMO for a motivation.

I hope they can introduce a new way of looking at their soul craving.

padixon wrote:most people don't like them much as it is now from my pov.

Very true. GW wasted too much time thinking that people would hate DE no matter what. For years even DE's biggest fans have been begging for more. More background. More substance. More options. More anything. They wanted more to love than just piratical soul-harvesters.
Only recently did GW grow a brain and realize that getting people to love Dark Eldar is no harder than attractive models, vivid and exciting background, and a little acknowledgment. Frankly, I bet they're so worried about another flop that they've hashed out an over-abundance of flavor, just in case. I predict DE will be one of the most vibrant armies when their codex arrives. Such is my faith in GW.

I think that's fine if people don't like Dark Eldar, but going so far as to ridicule or insult other people that do is a bit too much. No one deserves to have their army ignored or even Squatted, everyone deserves updates and support no matter how ridiculous you personally find the army as a concept.

Yep, that's why so many Lost & the Damned players are still up in arms over the whole eye of terror thing.

OK, let me try again, when I don't have to react to someone else's comments...

I think that "Evil" Eldar are actually a very good idea.

I think that Dark Eldar as currently presented are very badly done. They have a lot going on, and are not well-developed. They don't have a clear, simple concept underlying them, either in Fluff or on the tabletop.

Nearly every other 40k army can be presented as a 5-second simplified Hollywood pitch - and that's why they work. "Knights in Space" - "Elves in Space" - "Giant Bugs" - "Vampire Knights in Space" - "Werewolf Knights in Space" and so on... With the Dark Eldar, there are a lot of "X but Y... and also Z..."

EPIC FAIL.

The Dark Eldar are very weak from a conceptual standpoint, and simply do NOT make sense from a 40k game perspective, much less an Apocalypse standpoint. As currently presented, Dark Eldar would be great for something like Necromunda or a 500-pt mini-game scenario.

But an actual 40k army? No way. There is nothing in the Dark Eldar background that suggests they would ever engage in the sorts of mass battle situations that are common to 40k gaming.

So in a nutshell, the Dark Eldar are the WFB Wood Elves, but worse. Unlike the WFB Welves, the Dark Eldar don't exist in the conventional universe, so there's no territory to invade. This is similar to how the Harlequins live in the Webway, and they had that concept first.

And then, numerically, Dark Eldar are a single city. So their rarity should be comparable to the Grey Knights. So again, they shouldn't be an army, but rather an army entry subsumed under another list. Like, say, the Harlequins, which had this concept first, also.

And even worse, the Dark Eldar are a house divided. So the idea that they would work together en masse for a 40k battle, doesn't make sense, either.

The way GW solved the exact same series of problems with the Harlequins was to make them a singular entry in the Eldar list. This is pretty much perfect, as it cements their role in the game. And allows for mass play via Apocalypse Datasheet.

Conceptually, it's essentially the same problem as the Hrud - diffuse, and not well-suited to mass battle. Hrud cannot take the field as a standard army. They'd make a great scenario force, however. Or fantastic allies for an expanded Tau Empire, in the same way that Kroot make a great expanded Datasheet army.

And that is why the Tau are a small, growing empire on the fringes of Imperial space. It places them on the map, gives them a clear reason for comflict against Imperials, and allows others to attack them. Tau are deliberately simple, because the concept can be clearly transmitted and built upon, allowing players to understand them and support them.

So, as I said above, Dark Eldar would make a great basis for a game called Comorragh, in which you guide a Dark Eldar cabal following the Necromunda / Mordheim ruleset, just swapping Imperial stats and wargear for their Dark Eldar equivalent. In this situation, the intensely self-contained politics and cutthroat play makes *perfect* sense.

So, as I said above, Dark Eldar would make a great basis for a game called Comorragh, in which you guide a Dark Eldar cabal following the Necromunda / Mordheim ruleset, just swapping Imperial stats and wargear for their Dark Eldar equivalent. In this situation, the intensely self-contained politics and cutthroat play makes *perfect* sense.

A game based on the least popular army in 40k would make perfect marketing sense indeed, but yeah, the concept has something going for it.

And then, numerically, Dark Eldar are a single city. So their rarity should be comparable to the Grey Knights. So again, they shouldn't be an army, but rather an army entry subsumed under another list. Like, say, the Harlequins, which had this concept first, also.

Rarity isn't factored in any army. The only armies making sense as an army (sentence?) are guard and traitor guard (latd players: Indeed! Hurrr!). Ok, tyranids also but Space marines and Eldar are supposed to be a small bunch of guys. How many space marines in a chapter again? 1000? and those guys are played all the time. So this argument is mood.

I agree however, that the concept of the Dark Eldar is seriously lacking. Personally, the image of darker Eldar than Craftworld Eldar is exactly my style, but the Dark eldar just don't do it for me...they are...meh. Not more.

But that can be changed if you try.

Greets
Schepp himself

In terms of rarity, you look at both numbers of soldiers *and* the combat duty rate for those soldiers.

Notionally, the 1000 Chapters of SM aren't very large, but they're *very* active, helping make up for the fact that they aren't massively numerous.

The problem with the GK is that they're 1/1000 of the SM, so even if they're 10x as busy as the average SM, they're still only 1% as visible overall.

In terms of rarity, you look at both numbers of soldiers *and* the combat duty rate for those soldiers.

I don't see how you can use that to justify the existence of Marines and not DE, though...

Dark Eldar could potentially show up anywhere in the galaxy, IIRC (isn't there a piece of wargear representing that?), and what little background we have suggests they're pretty active raiders. Not only that but I'm pretty sure there are more DE in the city of Comorragh than there are Space Marines in the entire universe.

Anyway, that's just what I think, though. If Space Marines deserve to be their own army, so do Dark Eldar.

Schepp himself wrote:
I agree however, that the concept of the Dark Eldar is seriously lacking.

Ya... That's what I'm saying. Even a DE player won't argue this. In fact, it's what we've been trying to tell GW for years... But as you, Schepp, pointed out, They are not beyond salvation. Their coolness potential is through the roof.

JohnHwang obviously has a different concept of DE in his head than I have. In 5th Ed rulebook we read throughout the timeline about DE making very large scale attacks. Like crippling the Imperial Navy's moorings at Bakka, for example, or the attack on Birmingham, when DE massacred the whole planet. Generally, I think 40k scale fights are perfect for DE. Attacking an outpost. Making a space marine prisoner run. Hitting a secluded branch of a Tyranid invasion to snatch up creatures for arena fighting. Etc. Anything larger is too slow and predictable to be characteristic of DE. Anything smaller would be silly and not worth any respectable Archon's time or effort.

Dark Eldar are "souless space vampires". There I condensed it enough for you.

The problem with Dark Eldar now is not necessarily their background. Their models suck, and that is their biggest problem. I promise you, I would own an APOC sized army tomorrow if their models where anything near decent looking. I like their background and I like their play style.

Gobstomp420 wrote:

Archonate wrote:You know, I get the feeling that it will be like getting a completely new army. DE as we know them will be squatted, and the new DE will be so far from what they were, that only in name will we recognize them.

You know, I think I would still be ok with that. Does anyone know if the drugs and their random tables will still exist in this new book? I hope so, but we know GW doesn't like any random-ness creeping into their dice-based game.

Actually players don't like randomness creeping into their dice-based game.

Witness the reaction to Possessed.

I'd say it's a red herring - players don't like rules that clutter up gameplay or require additional set-up time before the game. Like the possessed's random abilities, the catachans used to have jungle traps and lictors had their secret deployment, both of which were too much trouble.

I don't think the concept of Dark Eldar is poor in its condensed form so much as it was presented very poorly. I read through the Dark Eldar codex way back when and never even realized that they fed on souls to hold back Slaanesh;I thought they were just space emos. If they efficiently presented the desperate situation that defines existance as a Dark Eldar, as the selfish, defiant "original" Eldar that are eternally enslaved by Slaanesh, then there are interesting directions it can go in. Right now it is a disorganized mess with too many pointless emo-goth influences.

Mahu wrote:The problem with Dark Eldar now is not necessarily their background. Their models suck, and that is their biggest problem. I promise you, I would own an APOC sized army tomorrow if their models where anything near decent looking. I like their background and I like their play style.

It's a combination of both bad models and poorly presented background. Most people don't mind one of those two things, but the other keeps them from wanting to play. (And some just hate both.)
I love the army because I understand what GW was grasping at with it and I like it. I used to love the models until ALL the other armies' models evolved and got much cooler. Now I'm twiddling my thumbs until DE get their new package. Toying around with some Tau in the meantime. Now they have an extensive history and a very nicely laid out background.

And then, numerically, Dark Eldar are a single city. So their rarity should be comparable to the Grey Knights. So again, they shouldn't be an army, but rather an army entry subsumed under another list. Like, say, the Harlequins, which had this concept first, also.

A single city thats been around for 20 thousand years and has been growing the entire time. It also sprung up from the remains of many of the eldars core worlds. The dark eldar have none of the birth rate problems that crafworld eldar do. That city is likely to hold many, many billions. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they outnumbered the Tau, they certainly have been growing considerably longer and have a near infinite lifespan.

The whole problem with them is their poorly presented and at times generally poor fluff. They are trying too hard to be evil and they end up just not making any sense. They are in the same boat with the necrons, their origin stories haven't had time to refine into something useful and the original work wasn't particularly stellar. The necrons still have it worse though, they are an entire race of plot holes and contradictions.

It's a combination of both bad models and poorly presented background. Most people don't mind one of those two things, but the other keeps them from wanting to play. (And some just hate both.)

Actually i think its a combination of bad models and the fact that those models aren't readily available in stores. I think them having bad/undeveloped fluff actually has little to do with people not playing them.

I think some people would be suprised to know how little most people actually care about the fluff behind they're armies. Most new players (which is what GW is after) are going to pick an army based on what they like. Be it robots, aliens, tanks, demons or whatever.

I for one hope that the new models have less spikes and tall helmets on them, then I might be interested in playing the army provided the rules were decent.

Well, 5th Edition has another 4 years to go, so hopefully, GW will be able to clean up the DE and Necron concepts into something that is more clear and compelling.

IMHO the Necrons origin is pretty interesting but explaining the C'tan as simply "extremely powerful energy vampires in the material universe" cut off a lot of the mysticism and esoteric flavor the Necrons could have had. I think the Dark Eldar actually have a good origin and description but it is presented in such a disjointed fashion that actually getting a good view of what they actually are is far from the first impression that an army needs to interest people.

Railguns wrote:IMHO the Necrons origin is pretty interesting but explaining the C'tan as simply "extremely powerful energy vampires in the material universe" cut off a lot of the mysticism and esoteric flavor the Necrons could have had. I think the Dark Eldar actually have a good origin and description but it is presented in such a disjointed fashion that actually getting a good view of what they actually are is far from the first impression that an army needs to interest people.

I present this:

The necrons could not keep up with the old ones due to their slow colonization of space, the old ones had webways and the necrons had stasis.
The necrons got cancer a lot for some reason due to their star being random and spraying death at them.
The necrons got really pissed off at the old ones because cancer sucks and they had to wait a while.
The necrons developed crazy supertechnology to fight the old ones, including non warp faster than light tech.
The necrons still had cancer.
Faster than warp drives.
Inability to cure cancer.

The C'tan are giant energy beings that feed off of energy.
The C'tan like to "harvest" the life energies of "mortals" to eat.
Fear and other dark emotions tastes good.
C'tan have no interaction with souls or the war at all in any way.
The nightbringer feeds off of the "fearful" energy of mortals.
No ability to interact with the warp.
Eats peoples emotions.


Race. Based. On. Contradictions. They are more emo then the dark eldar.

ShumaGorath wrote:A single city thats been around for 20 thousand years and has been growing the entire time. It also sprung up from the remains of many of the eldars core worlds. The dark eldar have none of the birth rate problems that crafworld eldar do. That city is likely to hold many, many billions. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they outnumbered the Tau, they certainly have been growing considerably longer and have a near infinite lifespan.

Which kind of plays into an interesting thought I had in an old thread. We've all heard ad nauseum that the Craftworld Eldar are a dying race, right?

Well, what if the DE are thriving? What if the decisions they made turned out to be more effective than the Craftworlders' paths and methodologies? It'd be an interesting contrast, and might provide another fluff source of new DE...namely, Craftworlders who see the DE way of life as being a better path to survival.

The necrons still have it worse though, they are an entire race of plot holes and contradictions.

And that's something I've been saying in other threads too.

Necrons are a mishmash of Chaos Androids, evil robots, Lovecraftian horror, Star Trek Borg, Terminators, and WFB Undead in space. I think because the army's been built piece by piece over time, they've just kept glomming things onto it, and it's not very conceptually cohesive.

Like I've said, it even filters down to the models. Necron Warriors are very stylized and sleek, which works for a high-tech robot army. But they don't really communicate "ancient civilization" and Lovecraftian horror. Those things imply *ornateness.*

Another quick example -- a robot army would tend to be about technology...lots of upgrades, weaponry, attachments...you see where I'm going. But Necrons, in rules and miniature design, are extremely uniform and fixed, probably stemming from the undead and Borg background origins.

IMO, there's too many influences at work, and the designers have done too much cherry-picking without thinking about the whole. So I fully agree GW has some cleanup work to do with the Necron army concept. Not that I'm expecting anything other than a Tau Empire-style treatment, mind you. DE will at least get the overhaul they deserve.

Hey Shummy, I never said they were done well either, but it had interesting pieces. Put together well? Obviously not. The whole Lovecraftian theme they wanted would have been cool(I remember a particular Ask Dirty Steve in a WD that said it was "ancient, Lovecraftian Horror style"). But still, done badly.

ShumaGorath wrote:
I present this:

That, sir, was some funny stuff. I've never grasped the full story of the Necrons before I guess. They seemed rather cool to me, a bit mysterious... really, don't laugh!

And that brings me to another point:

Another quick example -- a robot army would tend to be about technology...lots of upgrades, weaponry, attachments...you see where I'm going. But Necrons, in rules and miniature design, are extremely uniform and fixed, probably stemming from the undead and Borg background origins.

Bah...The concept of cool funky robots is seriously misplaced in the 40k universe! The bland robots are fitting exactly in. I kind of like the mishmash thinking about it.
What was the tagline in the 4th edition? They number is Legion. Their name is death. Or something. Pretty cool. I always thought that was fitting.

Anyways, that thread is about Dark Elves, sorry to stride away.

Greets
Schepp himself

Anyways, that thread is about Dark Elves, sorry to stride away.

'zactly. Sorta.

Undead in Space shouldn't be discussed here!

But then, neither should we be talking about War Hydras and so forth...

What about War Hydras in space?

Greets
Schepp himself

War Hydras in Space?

That'd be a better army concept than a couple of the things GW's floated to date.

Oh come on now, War Hydras in Space? That would be just like Space Dinosaurs; rediculous.



Rediculous levels of awesome that is.

'zactly! Space Dinosaurs with LASERS on their heads!

frickin' LASERS

Necron Monolith can't be effictively destroyed with a strength 8 weapon - you can keep shooting it and the rules state that "each 'weapon destroyed' result inflicted on the Monolith reduces the number of shots at each target by -1".

So - no rules for destroying the weapon, no rules for destroying the Power Matrix (particle whip).

You could house rule it, but by the letter of the law (including the Necron errata/FAQ) there is nothing that can be done other than to make it phase out if you can only glance it.

So, from a tactical perspective, keep the hell away from them and concentrate on the phase out!

Armour 14 vehicles are exactly what lances were made for...

At least normal eldar have swooping hawks that can potentially destroy a Monolith with their grenade packs!

If the thread can't stay on topic, it should be closed.

JohnHwangDD wrote:GW forces don't need to display much imagination at all, so Chaos Eldar fits right in with the rest of the 40k universe far better than the current "Dark" Eldar, which are more "Emo" Eldar / "Goth" Eldar.

Tell you what, next time I see a fellow Goth or one of those Emo's sacrificing people, purifying their souls and consuming them to extend their own lifespan out of fear of what happens when they die, I'll let you know.

Oh, and please don't confuse Emo's with us Goths. We are very different breed from each other. This is to the world at large rather than just your good self by the way!

No, Emos and Goths inhabit the same social sphere and aren't significantly different in behaviours. They just dress differently and write different sorts of the same bad poetry I know, i've met and known both.


But on topic, the Dark Eldar concept needs to be explained succintly. Original, defiant Eldar who refused to change and are now stuck in their ways, eternally enslaved by a Chaos god they created. The rest needs to be played down or at least used tastefully. For Space Emperors sake, to capture requisition points in Dawn of War they literally stand around the point in a circle and slit their wrists. Over the top Goth/emo influence.

Railguns wrote:to capture requisition points in Dawn of War they literally stand around the point in a circle and slit their wrists. Over the top Goth/emo influence.

"Make every Cut Count, so Down the Road, NOT Across the Street!"

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Railguns wrote:to capture requisition points in Dawn of War they literally stand around the point in a circle and slit their wrists. Over the top Goth/emo influence.

"Make every Cut Count, so Down the Road, NOT Across the Street!"

My favorite is when music magazines do Emo-centric issues and they all have an article "Things To Cut Into Your Arm."

You've got to be joking. Please tell me you're joking.

I once knew I guy who cut his girlfriend's name into his arm. Luckily I already looked down on him, so no change in opinion was required.

*sigh* This thread is going nowhere productive and fast.

Asmodeus wrote:*sigh* This thread is going nowhere productive and fast.

Mostly because there is nothing new to report.

As long as its open we'll have fun with it. The meaningfull discussion has been had already.


Dreadnote, I love that sig picture.

Thanks. The only problem with it is that I had to crop scotland out to make it signature-sized - but then again, who'd mourn the loss of scotland?

Asmodeus wrote:*sigh* This thread is going nowhere productive and fast.

Welcome to the internet. You must be new here.

Railguns wrote:No, Emos and Goths inhabit the same social sphere and aren't significantly different in behaviours. They just dress differently and write different sorts of the same bad poetry I know, i've met and known both.


But on topic, the Dark Eldar concept needs to be explained succintly. Original, defiant Eldar who refused to change and are now stuck in their ways, eternally enslaved by a Chaos god they created. The rest needs to be played down or at least used tastefully. For Space Emperors sake, to capture requisition points in Dawn of War they literally stand around the point in a circle and slit their wrists. Over the top Goth/emo influence.

Maybe your American Faux-Goths...but not us proper British Goths.

Double posteseses.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Fixed your typo.

I don't know who are more pretentious: Goths or Hipsters.

Well... If you can't beat them...



Had to edit the comic... *shrug* You still get the idea.

LOLGOTHZ.

The Dreadnote wrote:Thanks. The only problem with it is that I had to crop scotland out to make it signature-sized - but then again, who'd mourn the loss of scotland?

Heh. BTW, how was Scotland tagged?

Also, original, please?

http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/footy/

Haggis and scotch eggs.



Also hellfury wins.

Locked for being far, far off-topic.