and you have one turn to kill them before they assault you. what is the best way to defeat this unit BEFORE they can?

charge them with your 10 pariahs...

You have to hit them with lots of small arms fire. Bolters, lasguns, h.bolters, template weapons, etc. The best way to kill them is with rate of fire weapons.

Also, feed them a sacrifical squad if you have on available. Just park a cheap squad in front of them so taht they have to charge it, gives you another turn of shooting.

Reecius has it right.

Just dice the bastards to death with small arms fire.

What army do you play? Or is this just a hypothetical question?

A couple of plasma cannon blasts on target should take a fair number out since you will be hitting 7 of them with a direct hit. and they only save on a 3+ against that so you just killed 2+ per shot. 4 PC devs = 8 dead + you have your bolters from the rest of the squad still.

lash them twice backwards and laugh as they walk forward.

They deepstruck in front of me? If they are within 6" I will walk one unit up to 1" from them and walk the rest of the units within 12" away. Begin shooting.

If they are outside of 6", then everyone within 12" will move away. Begin shooting.


Level II
2 landraiders with 10 assault terminators inside drive up in front of you. What do you do.

Well, you have to try and keep the Land Raiders from getting to you. That's the trick with this question. If they make it, try following the original instructions after they rip through your first unit.

I'm Eldar..
So i'll use my speed and get the hell out of the way.
A similar thing happened to me before:
My boys fleeted/zoomed away and engaged his back army.. then his termies trudged around for a long time...
I tabled him and laughed "hahahaha"

just my $0.02

Strimen wrote:A couple of plasma cannon blasts on target should take a fair number out since you will be hitting 7 of them with a direct hit. and they only save on a 3+ against that so you just killed 2+ per shot. 4 PC devs = 8 dead + you have your bolters from the rest of the squad still.

you can still run after a DS. most likely the terminators will use this movement to spread out to avoid blasts and the like.

Level I:

The answer with my Lash list has already been posted: Lash them back and chuckle. Throw Vindi rounds or plasma cannon shots at them if I still feel the need.

With my Dark Eldar, I focus fire. I have enough Disintegrators and Dark Lance equivalents alone to easily cut the unit in half, and that's discounting the 50-75 S3 shots I could add in or the variable AP flame template weapons. Whatever's left gets swamped by a unit of wyches. Sure, I'd be dedicating most of my army to eliminating this unit, but eliminating a unit that is at least 20% of my opponent's force is worth it.

Level II:

My Lash list first try to put a sacrificial unit in the way, and otherwise move away as possible. I would then use Melta equipped Plague Marines and/or Obliterator Lascannon/Melta (depending on range) to attempt to pop the Land Raider. If the Landraider was popped, Lash the Termies back. If immobilized, let the sacrificial unit die and Lash back next turn. If no appreciable effect is obtained in shooting the Landraider...well, the dice gods hate me and I deserve my fate.

My Dark Eldar list is less worried than my Lash list. My normal list includes 22 Dark Lance equivalents. I'd move a sacrificial warrior unit armed with blasters & splinter cannon (my moble warriors) in a large arc preventing any disembarked Termies from performing an end-around move; If I get a good fleet rolle, I might even try to block the exits. Then, the other 20 DL equivalents light up the Land Raider. After this, proceed with plan versus the deep striking Termies as above.

Since I've got Daemons, I charge them with my squad of 8 bloodcrushers, who will statistically cripple the squad on the charge.

32 attacks, 21.3 hits, 17.8 wounds, 5.9 kills. 4 terminators survive to strike back, so they get 8 attacks, 4 hits, and 3 wounds.

Centurian99 wrote:Since I've got Daemons, I charge them with my squad of 8 bloodcrushers, who will statistically cripple the squad on the charge.

32 attacks, 21.3 hits, 17.8 wounds, 5.9 kills. 4 terminators survive to strike back, so they get 8 attacks, 4 hits, and 3 wounds.

I second that

Alternatively, if you are going heavy assault termies, Shrike is the man. Fleeting termies are stupid.

Infiltrating, fleeting termies are uber stupid.

For my CSM - A mix of oblitorator plasma cannons and lash, either way is possible.

For my Daemons - Blood crushers.

mob of thirty orks with power klaw nob and 3 big shootas.
ok shooting first 27 shots 9 hit 4.5 wound .75 die
9 big shoota 3 hit 2 wounds .33 die
so 1 dead from shooting
charge
124 attacks
62 hit
31 wound
5 dead
at int 1
nob wounds .41
8 attacks back
4 hits
3.33 dead orcs

terminators with 2 attacks hate huge units with crap loads of attacks

Lash is an ultimate answer to the Level I question.

3 Rhinos bracketing the Land Raider could stop Level II. One in front and one on either side. A 0" Ram will not likely clear the way and shooting can only happen after movement so the LR must either back out and loose much distance or stand still and try to shoot the rhino barriers for a chance at moving the next turn.

A 20 strong unit of sisters with a heavy flamer and regular flamer and one-shot flamer gets their free shot from the nearby inquisitor with two mystics. The use their AoF to Divinely Guide the shots. This should give about 4 ap=1 hits with just bolters and upwards of 8 more ap=1 hits from flamers. Then all the other regular small arms 2+ saves.

Then, in your shooting phase, do the same thing. If both AoF are successful, you should pretty much be able to handle the assault of whatever's left...with yet another AoF to give you invulnerable saves vs their hammers.

I'm not saying it will kill all 10....but I've done it to 7 getting out of a Land Raider and didn't get the free shots from mystics on that one.

a devastator squad with 4 plasma cannons and a combi-plasma gun

Lash them back and group them up, then drop 6 plasma cannons and a bunch of meltas on them. If ther are enough left to be threatening after that, use the second ash to push them again ifthey're still too close.

To summarize...nearly anything en-masse will do the trick, regardless of your army.

Shoot them with lightning! That's how I solve all my problems...

Seriously, what army do you play anyway?

Greets
Schepp himself

Ten assault terminators deepstriking in front of my army ready to assault next turn is sort of like a waiter bringing dessert out to the table. (one of those brownies with the hershey bar just melted on top with a scoop of vanilla ice cream comes to mind)

....its not a very good "attack". It obvious, unreliable (deep strike can shaft you), wasteful, and basically just wont work. Will you get into combat...maybe, probably yes if the enemy doesnt have enough firepower to beat thru your saves. Regardless however, you'll be spending the points for 10 terminators, but in most cases if you ARE able to charge after the DS you be charging with less than 5. (unless you get charged yourself in order to rob you of the charge bonus)

Tau:
Railgun the LandRaider. Plasma the Termies to Ashes, then Plasma the Ashes. Honestly I haven't played against Termies since 4th Ed., and the guy would only use Lightning Claw termies. He was scared to death of the Plasma Rifles.

Necrons:
I'm thinking a charge from whatever C'Tan would do the trick. I almost always field one for just such occassions, with a Destroyer Lord w/ Phase Shifter and WarScythe to add a few more attacks. I get tired of buying regular Power Weapons when everyone and their brother can pick up an Invulnerable Save from ShieldMart.

If for some reason I didn't bring my C'Tan I guess I'd throw a unit of Scarabs at them and go about my business.

To make things more difficult:

I'd assume the land raider is popping smoke.

That the termie squad has a null rod in its midst or at least a psychic hood and nullzone. If you really want to torture the daemon and chaos players add in an allied GKGM with a daemonhammer and a grimoire. Those blood crushers will have a tough time with their weapon skill halved rounding down and someone with 4 attacks at str 8 swinging first =P Oh and everyone he hits wouldn't be able to swing until the end of the next assault phase, basically knocking them out of the fight for a round.

ubersnax wrote:Tau:
Railgun the LandRaider. Plasma the Termies to Ashes, then Plasma the Ashes. Honestly I haven't played against Termies since 4th Ed., and the guy would only use Lightning Claw termies. He was scared to death of the Plasma Rifles.

Necrons:
I'm thinking a charge from whatever C'Tan would do the trick. I almost always field one for just such occassions, with a Destroyer Lord w/ Phase Shifter and WarScythe to add a few more attacks. I get tired of buying regular Power Weapons when everyone and their brother can pick up an Invulnerable Save from ShieldMart.

If for some reason I didn't bring my C'Tan I guess I'd throw a unit of Scarabs at them and go about my business.

You haven't played 5th, plasma gives them a 3+ save, its hard to have enough suits to make a dent in ten termies before they hit your lines, but a C'Tan or War Scythe would do the trick somewhat, you'd probably lose your lord if he was the only one, the c'tan might win...not sure i'd have to do the math. Are Scarabs immune to instant death? If not, they'll disappear very quickly vs str 8.

All in all, the assault terminators are only scary if they get into hand to hand and that's a very difficult thing for them to do after deep striking. Droping down next to the enemy is risky since it's fairly easy to deviate and land on the enemy (forcing a roll on the mishap table). So you got to leave yourself some distance when you drop down or take a fairly large gamble. But lets just say you have a teleport homer or something similar around that gets your terminators to about 3" away from an enemy unit. All the enemy has to do is walk 6" away from you and then roll a 4+ for their run roll and all of a sudden they are out of charge range. In the mean time, the rest of their army can start pouring fire into the terminators in an attempt to kill them. Now this gets harder the closer the terminators get to the initial unit, but it gets easier the farther away they end up and again deep strike is unreliable. Even if they drop right next to a unit, the player could simply sacrifice that unit (which is very unlikely to be as expensive as a 10 man terminator unit) and then move everything else away. So in the end, deep striking assault terminators are intimidating, but they are really not as dangerous as they might sound.

Well, with my necrons - shoot then charge with my pariahs when I bring them (and I often do), and charge with my wraiths (I almost always bring 2-3 squads of them) which will tie up the termies pretty much indefinitely while the attached destroyer lord wielding a warscythe slowly hacks through them. Or have nightbringer walk in.

With my daemons, one squad of flamers opens up, If they get a good run roll I'll still get about 20 hits with 3 templates, so they're likely to lose 3-4 from that. Then have fateweaver use a breath and bolt taking out another 1-2, then rush in with some bloodletters. 30 S5 powerweapon attacks will reduce what's left significantly enough, if it doesn't kill it outright, that I'll be pretty much able to shrug off the retaliatory strikes with my rerollable invulnerable saves.

As for the second option, uh, 1-2 groups of screamers flies up to meet the LR halfway, and eat it. Everything gets out. Now I have the opportunity to get there with flamers, letters, etc...

I guess it all depends on where they land If they're deepstriking, chances are you aren't going to have exactly what you need right at hand!

Since I play 'nids, I'd probably have to tie them up with a squad of gaunts, unless I could run everybody out of range (I don't have any guns in the list!). That would hurt though, since I'm going to be taking large squad of gaunts. I wonder what the math would be of 32 gaunts vs the terminators... on the charge they might do somewhat OK, right?

So in general it is not a good tactic to DS the 10 assault terminators in front of a smart opponent. The landraiders change the odds dramatically though.

Dark lances are actually not that great against AV12+...

0.67 to hit, 0.5 to glance, 0.167 to immobilize => 6%
0.67 to hit, 0.33 to penetrate, 0.33 to wreck/destroy => 7%

If your opponent pops his smoke launchers those odds are now cut in half, so less than 5% chance of stopping either landraider. If you are shooting all your lances at the landraiders the rest of the SM army will be run a clinic... I would take a whirlwind or two and rain down death from above.

G

Hope they scatter into one of your squads.

Are the new SM stormshields 4++ or 3++?

Either way, I'd sick a unit of 10 GKTs on them, close combat like.

30 attacks on the charge, 20 hits, 17 wounds, 8.5 dead if it's 4++, 5 dead if it's 3++.

Then just throw in a Grand Master for good measure. That increases the kill count by about one wound either way. And if you use Holocaust... You get the idea.

They strike back with either 2 attacks or 8, depending on whether it's a 4++ or 3++, and end up dealing either .5 wounds or 2. Either way, Grey Knight Terminators come out on top.

Initiative is a beautiful thing.

Of course, if the assault termies get the charge, things are different, but that's why you don't let them.

My 1,500 Ork battlewagon list can consistently kill 6+ terminators a turn just from shooting. Since 10 assault termies is a big chunk of points, I won't have to worry too much about the rest of his army. Afterward, assault the unit with a 30 man squad (backed with a trukk squad if you feel like it) and kill 3 more. Profit.

Storm-hammers aren't so scary when all you have to protect you in the first place is a t-shirt, your guns have a potential 25" range thanks to open-topped transports, and you can probably just simply ignore the unit for the rest of the game.

everyone has basically already said it: small arms fire, in proper quantities>terminators, stormshield or not. They may tout their 3++ save, but when you're making them take and fail their 2+ armour, they're gonna be angry. Besides, watching (a) terminator(s) go down to lasguns makes me all warm and happy inside. 'What, that flashlight in the eyes too bright for ya?'

I like that a 30-boy mob w/ PK nob, a 200 point unit, can gut a 400 point terminator squad. Also super-painful. Lots of big choppa nobz would wreck their day too.


Nullzone, vindicator, and plasma cannon devastators would be my other recommendation.

Edit: one of the things I'm gonna miss about the old IG 'dex: fire your whole army at them: let them eat a 5-man command squad. fire your whole army at them. let them eat another 5-man command squad. Rinse and Repeat, or just feed them little squads until you've tabled the rest of their army.

Yeah, I think most armies have something that can deal with the "shock and awe" tactic.

Marines: plasma, vindicator
Orks: Lots of small arms, with a sacrificial unit or two
Necrons: Destroyers, warscythes
Nids: read orks
IG: lots of everything

daemons have bloodcrushers and I have had a lucky soulgrinder shot kill 8 or so in one go.

0ldsk00l wrote:and you have one turn to kill them before they assault you. what is the best way to defeat this unit BEFORE they can?

Shoot the hostage!

I suppose I would simply fall back to standard Necron battle tactics:

Step 1: Shoot it with every available Gauss weapon
Step 2: Keep shooting it with every available Gauss weapon
Step 3: KEEP SHOOTING DAMMIT!!!

Possibly, you think that the SM player is stupid.
He deep strikes his Termies in front of the enemy and that's it. He will have other units supporting them.
Charge with Pariahs? They will be dead before they could charge.
Railguns? Hammerhands will be stunned or Suits will be dead.
Bloodcrushers? Will be decimated too.

Backpedal firously while shooting them with whatever guns available.. I have Chaos and If They deepstriked in front of me most of my squads would backpedal shooting. Maybe if I had my Bloodthirster on he would just charge in and deal damage but other then that. Piss bolt away and then shot.

Bloodthirster. This damn thing will get eaten: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 8 wounds, 4 saves.

Green Blow Fly wrote:So in general it is not a good tactic to DS the 10 assault terminators in front of a smart opponent. The landraiders change the odds dramatically though.

Dark lances are actually not that great against AV12+...

0.67 to hit, 0.5 to glance, 0.167 to immobilize => 6%
0.67 to hit, 0.33 to penetrate, 0.33 to wreck/destroy => 7%

If your opponent pops his smoke launchers those odds are now cut in half, so less than 5% chance of stopping either landraider. If you are shooting all your lances at the landraiders the rest of the SM army will be run a clinic... I would take a whirlwind or two and rain down death from above.

G

Slight adjustment:

.67 to hit, .33 to penetrate, .50 to immobilize/wreck/destroy =>11%

Combined likelihood of forcing the Termies to hoof it: 17%. I have 22 DL equivalents in my army. Statistically, it should only take 6 shots to force the Termies to walk. Statistically, it should take 10 shots to destroy the Raider. Granted, Smoke does double the number of shots, but any decent DE player is going to have enough. I consider my 22 DL equivalents kinda light. I have played a list with 42 before, but that proved to be no fun for anyone, and it has something like 33 kill points.

A DE player doesn't even have to spend an entire turn in focusing on the LR/Termies, if he doesn't want. All he has to do is spend enough shooting to get them walking, use mobility to make sure they can't assault the next turn, and spend the rest of the shooting phase focusing on the rest of the SM army. Since the Termies have no shooting and cannot fleet, the superior mobility of a DE army allows the player to effectively ignore the Termies by avoiding them and focusing attacks on the rest of the SM army.

However, that wasn't the question the original poster posed to us.

Demolition charge with supporting fire.

Str 9 Ap 2.

Hope it doesn't scatter.

I've been playing with 2 DH Inqs and mytics in my IG list with demolishers with plasma cannons nearby. If everything works out right, I get 4 plasma cannon shots at them as they drop in and are still bunched together...and worst, it's only 2 demolisher cannon shots.

Then, repeat on my turn.

SAG them (I'm usually insanely lucky with an SAG, getting double six every time I shoot termies). Failing that hit 'em hard and repeatedly with 30 strong slugga boyz mobz. They'll fail saves eventially.

.67 to hit, .33 to penetrate, .50 to immobilize/wreck/destroy =>11%

If they pop their smoke you are back to 5%.

I have two Baals in my BA army and have faced lance heavy DE on multiple occassions with both tanks making it through each time.

G

And I addressed that, as well, assuming you read the rest of the post that you partially quoted. Even with smoke, the Termies are walking, statistically, with about half of my regular lists Dark Lances, and I don't even consider my DE list particularly competitive.

As a DE player, I'm not worried about killing the Land Raider, I just want the Termies walking. Once on foot, they are really no longer a threat to my more mobile army.

As for your comment about your Baal Preds, well anecdote is not evidence. If it were, then all those herbal remedies you hear about must be a great investment. I, myself, with my regular DE list have had times where I have lucked out and killed two Land Raiders on turn one before getting through half of my shooting.

Does that mean it is something I expect to happen? Of course not, but even in cover or in smoke a typical DE list with 20+ DL equivalents should at least immobilize/weapon destroy/kill one vehicle for every ten or so shots. Lacking smoke or cover, it is one out of every five shots.

If you've had better luck, well bully for you.

wuestenfux wrote:Bloodthirster. This damn thing will get eaten: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 8 wounds, 4 saves.

WS 4 versus 10, so 20 attacks, *6.5 hits*, 5 wounds, 2-3 saves.

So it's not nearly ideal, but not quite a first-turn kill.

Second turn kill is almost guaranteed, however.

Saldiven wrote:
As for your comment about your Baal Preds, well anecdote is not evidence. If it were, then all those herbal remedies you hear about must be a great investment.

The truth will set yee free. Really.

G

sourclams wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Bloodthirster. This damn thing will get eaten: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 8 wounds, 4 saves.

WS 4 versus 10, so 20 attacks, *6.5 hits*, 5 wounds, 2-3 saves.

So it's not nearly ideal, but not quite a first-turn kill.

Second turn kill is almost guaranteed, however.

I forgot that Termies will hit on 5+. Too bad. But the Thirster goes down anyway.

DS assault termies are just not that good.
They remind me of those nurgle slug beasts alot:
Can take alot of damage for their points value,
but are too slow too dish an equivalent amount out.
You can kill them if you want/need to, but theres not much stopping an eldar player from just keeping them
at arms length.
=]

1. Terminators eat every available shot in my army (plasma/railguns doing major damage) sacrifice my least important unit by moving it up to force them to assault it they chew apart my sacrifice, finish them off in the following turn.

2. The landraiders never made it to my line as the broadsides blew them up already, smoke you say? markerlights took care of that.

wuestenfux wrote:Possibly, you think that the SM player is stupid.
He deep strikes his Termies in front of the enemy and that's it. He will have other units supporting them.
Charge with Pariahs? They will be dead before they could charge.
Railguns? Hammerhands will be stunned or Suits will be dead.
Bloodcrushers? Will be decimated too.

Any your assuming we wouldn't have taken action to destroy other threats from his army list. 10 terminators is a lot of points, and if we were playing a game like 1500, that just means I'm facing a 1000 pt list before the termies Deep Strike in- and an extra turn because they are twiddling their thumbs for a bit when they come in. That means they will have a 50% chance to do anything on turn 3, a 66% chance to do anything on turn 4, etc...

If I can't cripple 1000 points of marines with 1500 points I'm a failure as an ork player.

Rapidfire goodness, then jump them with Shrike, 5 Vanguard with Twin LC's and a Chaplain.

It kinda should beat 10 termies.. that lil set up is both hq slots & a fast attack which costs 170ish points more!

Good thing about termies is that, against crazy-ass shooty armies like tau, you Can either transport, footslog or teleport them. Versitile. Expensive so that its never worth taking 10 (for either the risk of vindi pie plates, not coming out of reserves for too long, being dominated in H2H)

This entire question depends on the army you are playing as. Some have the firepower to kill that, some have the speed to run away, and some have the CC power to assault and kill that unit. So, what army are you referring to?

Castle up your army:

If your army is spread out, the your opponent can DS the termies in front of a weak point in your army, this will also mean that your "I can kill your termies with this ONE unit" unit will be unable to respond before all hell breaks loose.

All this talk of blood crusher, GKTs, etc, is fine, really, but it won't do you any good if your unit isn't positioned in such a way that van respond.


From a guy who used to use infiltrate and DS units a lot, take it from me, castled up armies give us nightmares.

If the terminators can pull off a multi charge they could put a big dent in a castle. I would come in on the weak flank.

G

Tried it today against chaos demons. didnt work too bad for what I was attempting to achieve; namely to tie up half his army while blasting apart the other half. He charged in daemonettes, seekers and a demonprince, and all his units and my terminators whacked away at each other for severa turns (my to-hit rolls were abysmal, as were his to-wound rolls). I ended the game with 2 terminators (failed invulnerables hurt), and all his stuff neatly crowded around them.

0ldsk00l wrote:Tried it today against chaos demons. didnt work too bad for what I was attempting to achieve; namely to tie up half his army while blasting apart the other half. He charged in daemonettes, seekers and a demonprince, and all his units and my terminators whacked away at each other for severa turns (my to-hit rolls were abysmal, as were his to-wound rolls). I ended the game with 2 terminators (failed invulnerables hurt), and all his stuff neatly crowded around them.

Hopefully you had a librarian with Null Zone right?

At least two squads of DAs will be within range by the end of the movement phase, and a Serpentful of Fire Dragons can't be too far off either.

I'm chaos apoc, so I deepstrike 15 oblits in there and whip out the plasma cannons.

Standard IG Tactics: Shoot them to death w/ a large(5 squads) Plattoon's worth of Lasgun & Heavy & Specials (81 flashlights +6 flash pistols + 8 Flamers+ 12 HB) then charge (sacrifice) a squad to pin them in place. Keep shooting...
Inquisitorial IG Tactics: Inquisitor w/ Mystic and a asssortment of Demolishers.... Lots of ap2 love on the turn they arrive. Repeat and rince in your turn...

I'm a new csm player and am interested in eventually having some termies w/ mon om them (goes with theme). So what is a good way to field them ? from what it seems DS them to try and CC dose not seem effective against a smart player, so only option is lander raider them ? or foot slogging them ? What would be the best way to use them effectively ? and would it be wise to use a 7 man compared to 10 ? for saving some points but keeping them a threat.

I play Tau, and I use a lot of plasma on my suits I usually have a team of 3 suits with Plasma/Fusion on each arm...that's Str6 AP2 on one arm, STR8 AP1 on the other arm. The Plasma is rapid fire at 12" so...

6 Plasma shots, 3 fusion shots, tack on whatever railguns are behind me, along with the other suits adding in their own plasma/missiles and voila. Dead terminators.

sacrifice a small squad, remember that his hth weapons strike last, so attrition is his enemy. spreading your units keep him from follow-up charging the next in line, giving you more time to shoot them up on your turn.

However, do not ignore the rest of his army as they WILL be advancing/shooting on his turns.

Dashofpepper wrote:I play Tau, and I use a lot of plasma on my suits I usually have a team of 3 suits with Plasma/Fusion on each arm...that's Str6 AP2 on one arm, STR8 AP1 on the other arm. The Plasma is rapid fire at 12" so...

6 Plasma shots, 3 fusion shots, tack on whatever railguns are behind me, along with the other suits adding in their own plasma/missiles and voila. Dead terminators.

and the terminators 3+ invuln most of the wounds, and you get charged next turn?

Helgrenze has a lot better of a grasp of what is going on there. Undoubtedly, the terminators aren't the only thing you have to contend with. but you have to figure out a way to deal with them and whatever the rest of his army is doing at the same time.

Under previous editions of the rules, My scout force would have made my opponant regret that move.

Dropping anything into range of 6 units of scouts predominantly armed with sniper rifles (30 or so) was just bad tactics. The previously allowed auto cannons just added bonus shots.

As a guard player I am not threatened by terminator in any way, shape or form. I have ap2 allll day long. Demo cannon, plasma, lascannons or w/e. these things are dead. I love to see lots of termies on the other side of the field because they are so expensive and easy to kill off. I'm in the minority here...

Well, lately, I've been playing mostly Guard lately, and I've been kind of paranoid about enemy Deep Strikers, so... I typically have Inq. Lord w/ 3 Mystics and 3 Demolishers. Also, I am merciless about spamming AP2 Plasma and pie.

Enemy Turn
So I start by dropping a "free" S10 AP2 pie plate on their heads. That's a pretty darn good start, as it's going to kill around 3 of them right off the bat.

My Turn
Then, on my turn, I'm going to drop an Officer team with double-tapping Plasma nearby, so that's another kill.

All 3 Demolishers are going to drop pie on them, for another 3 or 4 dead Termies, leaving them with probably 2, maybe 3 left.

My double-Plasma Storms will have a go, getting them down to 1 model,

Then, blitz the Eversor in to mop up in HtH.

Tau
Level 1:
I'm Mech Tau, I have no battle line.
But I will probably lose my Broadside team in the process.

Level 2:
Well his Landraiders are going to be crippled after a turn of shooting. Meanwhile, everything's hauling ass from the terminators. Broadsides go down again..

Today, in a game vs IG, my 10 Assault Termies plus Librarian w/ goi struck deep in front of the enemy lines. They ripped through the whole army, even plasma shots were not able to stop them.

wuestenfux wrote:Today, in a game vs IG, my 10 Assault Termies plus Librarian w/ goi struck deep in front of the enemy lines. They ripped through the whole army, even plasma shots were not able to stop them.

Most guard armies are terrible... We really have to get cheesy to win. ap2 spam, deepstrinkin in on turn 5 (with the help of improved comms) to contest everything we don't hold, neigh unbreakable fodder troops to tie you up in cc... I love IG

I don't know what the issue is. It only looks scary. But I ran my old standard farsight tau list, against a bunch of dark angel players over the last 2 weeks, and every time the DA's play the same thing, 3 x 5 terminators with belial in terminator armor. Unless I charged in with farsight, there was no combat in any of those games. And in both games, I shot down the majority of the terminators with firewariors. Its amazing how resilient 26 firewarriors are hiding behind devilfish, with just a single unit of plasma/misslepod crisis suits backing them up. oh and iridium armor with stimulant injector crisis leader joined to the crisis suits FTW :p

However I think a 10 man unit of harlequins with fortune and doom on the charge will tie up and beat down those 10 terminators, even with storm shields. The math says its good.

I've had the displeasure of playing vs. the Black Templars version lately: 5 x claws, 5 x hammers, Chaplain with 3 Servitors. I usually just try to block their movement with vehicles or units right up in their face. If you shoot them, they just get free turns of movement!

Abaddon did have some fun with them, though.


- Blackbone

I shoot them with my shokk attack gun which is on a hill and has clear LOS. I roll a and then hit with the scatter die. Whew--close call.

olympia wrote:I shoot them with my shokk attack gun which is on a hill and has clear LOS. I roll a and then hit with the scatter die. Whew--close call.

rofl

run away and pray to you heretical gods the marine player forgets how to play

There's a bit of confusion here...people are starting to talk about SM, BT, and DA terminators as if they're all the same.

We're talking about a 10-man (or 8-man) squad of terminators with 2+/3++ saves.

That's OK - most of us Guard players are still flattening them with firepower.

Terminators deep striking into IG lines forces IG to shoot everything at them until they are dead. I don't use terminators anymore but I never had any problems with IG back in the day.

G

have all 115 of my guardsmen charge them

I step out of the way, of course.

Wait, were we talking about a charging lion?

No?

Well, I firmly stand by my answer.

Moz wrote:They deepstruck in front of me? If they are within 6" I will walk one unit up to 1" from them and walk the rest of the units within 12" away. Begin shooting.

If they are outside of 6", then everyone within 12" will move away. Begin shooting.


Level II
2 landraiders with 10 assault terminators inside drive up in front of you. What do you do.

Level III

Three redeemers with Shrike and 15 assault termies.

Got turned onto this list yesterday, full of win.

GMMStudios wrote:

Moz wrote:They deepstruck in front of me? If they are within 6" I will walk one unit up to 1" from them and walk the rest of the units within 12" away. Begin shooting.

If they are outside of 6", then everyone within 12" will move away. Begin shooting.


Level II
2 landraiders with 10 assault terminators inside drive up in front of you. What do you do.

Level III

Three redeemers with Shrike and 15 assault termies.

Got turned onto this list yesterday, full of win.

Um, thats 1515 points right there (with no EA or MM on the Raiders). How do you plan to take an objective, just have some little scout squads milling around or something? Is Shrike just to give the termies fleet? If they're all in Land Raiders I feel like mastercrafting all their hammers would be better as they should have no problems getting to touch with the units they want with the Land Raiders delivering them. 20" threat range from a LR, as opposed to 20+1D6" threat range if Shrike is included. I guess it can be a big difference (big enough to make a first turn charge... but if you leap out the raider then roll bad for fleet you're gonna get hosed) but rerolling hits drasticaly increases your combat effectiveness when you do make combat.

open up 45 lootas at them and hope for the best.
if not, throw 30 gretchin at em to keep em in place while charging in with nobz.

Caffran9 wrote:

Um, thats 1515 points right there (with no EA or MM on the Raiders).

You think fleeting termies and raiders are overpriced?

Also, I will be taking two units of scouts and two MM speeders.

My buddy who is going to A-con with me is making Nob Bikers, and I think this list has a decent chance.

If not it will be fun to watch and quick to paint.

EDIT:
Shrike isnt "just there for fleet" he is also there to CC with the termies.

The fleet is just insurance. I would never put myself in a situation where I would need to roll high to get into combat. It is there in case I goof or need just an extra inch to get in. If you are smart the fleet is just a guarantee you get it.

I never said they were overpriced at all. I'm just wondering if its worth spending that many points on them in a tournament sized (read: 1750 or 1850) list. It will leave you with almost nothing to hold objectives with so it'll be easy for the opposing player stop you from winning objective missions.

If you're smart why would you need fleet for a guarantee? I think if you're doing it right you won't need fleet at all, and you should be looking to improve your ability in combat instead since you're placing your entire game on 16 models killing the entire opposing army. Getting to combat to do that is one thing, and the LRs are enough to do that, but then actually getting the work done in combat is another. Those rerolls to hit can make a huge difference (in fact assuming 4+ to hit you will hit with 75% of your attacks instead of 50%, which is a massive difference).

That is just me though, and clearly this is subject to opinion and playstyle which makes neither of us right or wrong

asuming a 1500 point game i'd shoot them with 8 Dark Lances, 6 blasters, and 6 disintegrator shots then clean it up with an Archon + Incubi assault and what half your army disapear before it gets a chance to do much more cry.

There was a post a while back complaining about Shrike infiltrating with a huge block of terminators. I don't believe that the responses have change any since then.

Basically, all of the strategies involve making the terminators roll as large a number of saves as possible until their luck runs out or they've killed everything which they can reach, and whichever happens first determines who wins. All the enemy has to take is anti-horde weapons and enough las-cannon equivalents to kill the land raiders.

Silly daemonic spam counter: Spam Horror squads with bolt of tzeentch, three units of flamers, and two or three soul grinders with tongue or phlem, then flavor with HQ's to taste. Want to see how much fire power 50+ pink horrors can generate?

I think one of the things to think of is what did they get plopped in front of.
I play Eldar... so...

If the plopped in front of these normal items on my list:

- Eldrad with 4 Warlocks - Charge, tie them down wait for help (Usually banshees)
- Avatar usually fortune'd - Charge - if fortuned Avatar should survive and it will come down to 1 wound or Termie in 2nd or 3rd round, if I lose I am way up on points
- 8 Banshees with Exarch & Executioner - Charge especially if Termies are doomed see avatar above (Ill swap those points any day)
- 4-5 Dark Reapers - RUN AWAY, and sacrifice the storm guardians by moving them in between
- 10 Storm Guardians w/ 2 Fusion Guns & Warlock - Very Situationally dependent, could fall back and shoot, hold and shoot, fleet away, or shoot and charge. (If squad is guided and Termies Doomed, then fall back and shoot this could really ruin their day as Fusion guns take their toll)
- Two sqds of 7 Dire Avengers w/Exarch, Shimmer Shield & PW - Blade Storm and Charge (Probably wont win but with Defend, 5+ inv & PW should put a good dent in them especially if doomed
- Two sqds of 3 Jet Bikes w Shur Cannon, with Warlock and SS & Destructor - probably shoot from 9" away or so, use Destructor on what I can reach and fall back another 6" in assault phase,
- Wraithlord with Shur Cannon and Star Cannon - he will likely move away and shoot if he can avoid charge, if not I run him away See reapers above, until help arrives. (If I had two identical Wraithlords I would shoot and charge and do my best to keep the 7 or 8 remaining termies (I figure at least 2 dead from 12 str 6 shots, 4 of which are AP2) from fully engaging both lords

Other troops I have used in my armies
7 Harlequins w/ 1 TM with PW, 6 with Kisses - Shoot, especially if I have Fusion Pistols, then Charge, if the Termies are doomed it could be very bad for them. If I dont kill all on 1st round (which I probably won't) , I stay in combat and use my superior Int to get 1st hit on second round.
5 Pathfinders, very tempting to shoot but probably best to move run and wait for help

My lengthy .02

Shoot Them ...A Lot =) LOL...devastator squad etc. i guess

I play Blood Angels, so I could...

Step 1-Shoot them with a bunch of rending weapons, until they're dead.(Likely 1-3 Baal Predators w/TL AC's, and maybe sniper scouts for most BA players)
Step 2- If they're still alive, charge them with my Death Company, possibly lead by my Chappie (even more rending)

OR

Use my armies speed(lots of BA Rhino's and Jump Packs) to simply ignore them and continue the destruction. If the Termies do get annoying, use as described above with the rending.

it all depends on wat unit they deepstrike infront of.

So you neve know which unit it'll be so it doesnt even matta realy soz

I've found that against that unit, you can bog them down pretty well using a decent size group of thousand sons. They can hold out against a lot of power weapon attacks, long enough for you to get your other weapons to bear down on them. Abbadon, DP w/warptime, that kinda stuff.

i would have a 10 men unit of chaos terminators with mark of khorne, twin lightning claws, and all upgraded to champs. then i would charde the hell out of your unit.

i have 60 ws 5, str 4 re-roll to wound attacks that don't allow armour saves.

REAPER666 wrote:i would have a 10 men unit of chaos terminators with mark of khorne, twin lightning claws, and all upgraded to champs. then i would charde the hell out of your unit.

i have 60 ws 5, str 4 re-roll to wound attacks that don't allow armour saves.

Khorne terminator champions only get WS4. And that unit you have is 530 points CSM, while it fights 400 pts CM. But in that case, it does work, because on the charge, it comes down to 10 unsaved wounds.

I did some math for a fairer match-up:
You could get
7 terminators as described for 380: 42 attacks w/ re-roll to wound and 7 wounds
8 nearly similar ones without mark of Khorne for 400: 40 attacks w/re-roll to wound and 8 wounds
10 terminator champion without LC: 20 bolter shots on the assault, then 40 attacks and 10 wounds, but no re-roll.

All those solutions are not optimal for the purpose I found out after math-hammering it:

Example with chaos terminator champions with MoK and pair of LC:

Assault, round #1
7 CSM: 42 attacks, 21 hit, 10.5 wound, another 5.25 after re-roll. 5.25 unsaved wounds for the TH/SS terminators after 3+ save, rounded to 5.
5 SM: 10 attacks, 5 hit, 4 wound, 2.67 death chaos terminator champions after 5+ save, rounded to 3.

Assault, round #2 (after a Ld 9-2=7 check...):
4 CSM: 20 attacks, 10 hit, 5+2.5 wound, 2.5 unsaved wounds, 3 more dead TH/SS terminators after that.
2 SM: 4 attacks, 2 hit, 1.67 wound, 1.11 death terminator champions, rounded to 1.

Assault, round #3 (after a Ld 9-2=7 check...):
3 CSM: 15 attacks, 7.5 hit, 3.75 + 1.88 wound, 1.88 unsaved wounds, the last 2 TH/SS terminators die.

Lost: 4 terminators for about 54 pts each, or 217pts overall.

Example with 10 terminator champions without anything else:

Shooting phase:
Rapid-fire with twin-linked bolters before charge: 20 shots, 13.33 hit, 6.66 wound, 1 kill

Assault, round #1
10 CSM: 50 attacks, 25 hit, 12.5 wound, 4.17 unsaved, 4 TH/SS terminators dead
5 SM: 10 attacks, 5 hit, 4.17 wound, 2.77 death chaos terminator champions, rounded to 3 kills.

Assault, round #2 (after a Ld 9-2=7 check)
7 CSM: 21 attacks, 10.5 hit, 5.25 wound, 1.75 unsaved, 2 TH/SS terminators dead
3 SM: 6 attacks, 3 hit, 2.5 wound, 1.67 unsaved, 2 terminator champions dead

Assault, round #3 (after a draw)
5 CSM: 15 attacks, 7.5 hit, 3.75 wound, 1.25 unsaved, 1 TH/SS dead
2 SM: 4 attacks, 2 hit, 1.67 wound, 1.11 unsaved, 1 dead terminator champion

Assault, round #4 (after a draw)
4 CSM: 12 attacks, 6 hit, 3 wound, 1 unsaved, 1 TH/SS dead
1 SM: 2 attacks, 1 hit, .83 wound, .56 unsaved, 1 dead terminator champion

Assault, round #5 (after a draw)
3 CSM: 9 attacks, 4.5 hit, 2.25 wound, 0.75 unsaved, last TH/SS dead

Lost 7 terminators for 40 pts each, 280pts overall.

After doing this, I decided on cheap close combat for CSM:

400pts of lesser daemons means 30 models.

90 attacks on the charge kill 4 - 30:6
Then they lose 3 - 27:6
Then they kill 2 more - 27:4
Then they lose 2 - 25:4
...
Large numbers work in CC, too, if you got an invulnerable save. ;-)

Only problem would be to place that many models in CC, so this is purely theoretical.

8 bloodkrushers, led by a skulltaker on juggernaut deepstrike in front of the terminators. WHAT DO THEY DO?!

I charge with 20 bloodletters

60 attacks should be 40 hits

40 hits should be 24 wounds

24 wounds should be 7.9 failed saves





and if i'm using scarbrand its

60 attacks should be 52 hits

52 hits should be 34.3 wounds

34.3 wounds should be 11.3 dead

and the best part is 20 bloodletters is only 320 points, 80 less than the terminators

Yay daemons!!!