I was browsing through ebay, and noticed this seller ( wont reveal the name incase its invasion of privacy )

But i noticed the guy sells ( incomplete kits of Rhino / Landraider Variants ) this is the pattern i noticed:

-Uses pics of full kits , Redeemer , Predator , etc etc .
-States the kit is COMPLETE
-States the number of plastic frames ( his excuse for not including the upgrade frames because buyer
might not know the total of frames involved )
-Later state the pic is for reference only
-Includes a tiny pic of what he is telling / stacked frame too small too see details or how many.
-Finally states the frames are bases for building the Redeemer , Predator , Whirlwind .
-Example i found for recent auction ( a complete Rhino ) , later he admits he stated it to be missing accessory sprue.
( weird i dont see it saying missing anything )

*SS of his original auction / feed back from other customer.


NOTICE** This is NOT part of his original sale description THIS IS *screen shot of his later reply
to a Negative FEED BACK**

"Ignorance is no excuse"...indeed. You caught him in a lie right there, a "complete" kit is COMPLETE, with all sprues.

Sidstyler wrote:"Ignorance is no excuse"...indeed. You caught him in a lie right there, a "complete" kit is COMPLETE, with all sprues.

I just feel sorry for the other buyers , this caught my attention as i almost
placed a bid on his redeemer that was ending now.

and nono , he called the Buyer Ignorant.

I have seen his auctions before, never seemed bad to me, the description he gives lets you know you need a vehicle accessory sprue to finish the kit, but otherwise the the tank is complete.

I'm not sure If I read about this guy on Warseer, or here on Dakka, but he has history, and seem to be pretty decent.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:I have seen his auctions before, never seemed bad to me, the description he gives lets you know you need a vehicle accessory sprue to finish the kit, but otherwise the the tank is complete.

I'm not sure If I read about this guy on Warseer, or here on Dakka, but he has history, and seem to be pretty decent.

Im not seeing in the description of him stating the part i underlined.
thats what the buyer complained about, and he also claimed he wrote it, but im not seeing it.

LunaHound wrote:I was browsing through ebay, and noticed this seller ( wont reveal the name incase its invasion of privacy )

But i noticed the guy sells ( incomplete kits of Rhino / Landraider Variants ) this is the pattern i noticed:

-Uses pics of full kits , Redeemer , Predator , etc etc .
-States the kit is COMPLETE
-States the number of plastic frames ( his excuse for not including the upgrade frames because buyer
might not know the total of frames involved )
-Later state the pic is for reference only
-Includes a tiny pic of what he is telling / stacked frame too small too see details or how many.
-Finally states the frames are bases for building the Redeemer , Predator , Whirlwind .
-Example i found for recent auction ( a complete Rhino ) , later he admits he stated it to be missing accessory sprue.
( weird i dont see it saying missing anything )

*SS of his original auction / feed back from other customer.


*ss of his later reply

Based on what you've shown? Maybe they're scammer legit? Maybe not at all? Maybe one or the other? The cupola bits are needed to close off the top of the tank, but that's not the entire sprue so - maybe both parties are legit scammers?

Because you posted pics, I cannot copy what he said...but he clearly states you DO NOT get a vehicle accessory sprue, and the parts provided will let you make the Chassis, Hull and left/right tracks.

You get a complete rhino, as the vehicle accessory sprue isn't a mandatory part of the kit, just accessories. Read his description.

@with an iron fist

i just took screen shots of his auction ( nothing missing )

and the 2nd screen shot is for negative feed back from his
customer , as well as his reply.


*PS I still dont see anywhere of the original auction stating its missing accessory sprue .

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:Because you posted pics, I cannot copy what he said...but he clearly states you DO NOT get a vehicle accessory sprue, and the parts provided will let you make the Chassis, Hull and left/right tracks.

You get a complete rhino, as the vehicle accessory sprue isn't a mandatory part of the kit, just accessories. Read his description.

Im not seeing it lol , where did he state there isnt accessory sprue?

...last line in his description...

(for clarification purposes, you will not be receiving a vehicle accessory sprue with this auction)

Is this guy a scammer? No, because you do get what the auction says. A lot of bidders do read a little more into "complete" or "like new" than some buyers expect. For example, i sold a lot of tau drones that I listed "new on sprue" or in some similar language. I also made it clear that the items in the picture were what they were bidding on. The buyer eventually left negative feedback because I didn't include the flying bases. His argument was that new drones include flying bases.

That said, this guy is clearly trying to be misleading. The warstore makes a brisk business selling rhinos w/o the accessory sprue, and they're very upfront about it. Was the buyer cheated? No, but I'd avoid this seller if he's the kind to play games like that for a few extra bucks an auction.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:...last line in his description...

(for clarification purposes, you will not be receiving a vehicle accessory sprue with this auction)

Bravo on his part . seriousely bravo. sneaking that last line into the S&H description

Frankly, if it's not something that's still new in box, I want to see a picture or I don't bid. I also tend to avoid any seller that looks too "professional." I've never really gotten screwed as a buyer on eBay thanks to that approach, but I've passed on a lot of auctions.

Polonius wrote:Frankly, if it's not something that's still new in box, I want to see a picture or I don't bid. I also tend to avoid any seller that looks too "professional." I've never really gotten screwed as a buyer on eBay thanks to that approach, but I've passed on a lot of auctions.

I for one look for people who look professional. Chances are they have been doing it enough they don't f*ck you over on things. Its the random people with only a little feedback that I am very wary about. Professional sellers tend to make some or all of their income like this so it is in their best interest to run things legitimately.

Just my $0.02 though.

Lunahound wrote:Bravo on his part . seriousely bravo. sneaking that last line into the S&H description

You are now getting mad he actually did what he claimed he did? I guess you can't please everyone...

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:

Polonius wrote:Frankly, if it's not something that's still new in box, I want to see a picture or I don't bid. I also tend to avoid any seller that looks too "professional." I've never really gotten screwed as a buyer on eBay thanks to that approach, but I've passed on a lot of auctions.

I for one look for people who look professional. Chances are they have been doing it enough they don't f*ck you over on things. Its the random people with only a little feedback that I am very wary about. Professional sellers tend to make some or all of their income like this so it is in their best interest to run things legitimately.

Just my $0.02 though.

Lunahound wrote:Bravo on his part . seriousely bravo. sneaking that last line into the S&H description

You are now getting mad he actually did what he claimed he did? I guess you can't please everyone...

no im not really mad as im not the buyer . but to sneak a line like that after he made the item descrption and sneaking it into
the S&H section is pretty amusing. IMO atleast, if he wasnt trying to hide that line , he could easily have stated behind the ( This is a complete Rhino Kit with missing accessory sprue )
instead of what you see.

But of course, legally hes at 0 fault , just the ethic is shady.

@ Joyous: I should have been clearer in my remark about professionalism. I've dealt with pros, but I tend to buy the real used lots that individuals sell.

Right or wrong, it's really hard to argue that the guy wasn't trying to be misleading. Did he include what he said? Of course. Was he trying to trick people? I think it's pretty clear that he was.

Polonius wrote:@ Joyous: I should have been clearer in my remark about professionalism. I've dealt with pros, but I tend to buy the real used lots that individuals sell.

Right or wrong, it's really hard to argue that the guy wasn't trying to be misleading. Did he include what he said? Of course. Was he trying to trick people? I think it's pretty clear that he was.

I don't think at all he is trying to mislead people. If you can't be bothered to read a full listing, why are shopping on ebay, let alone be allowed to have a credit card. (this is not directed to you Polonius, just morons who don't read and then bitch when their stupidity comes back to bite them in the ass.

If it's got your worried enough that you have to post on a forum asking if it's legit or not, then I'd say that's your first really big clue not to buy from this guy.

As an aside, when you see people selling just the sprue, these are knock-off recasts made from a mold of the original sprue. We've been seeing tons of these all over e-bay for a while now. Because the cost of GW's kits has skyrocketed so badly it's created huge profit margins for these remolded knock-offs. Chances are at this point, it if came off e-bay and not in box, then it's a made-in-China recast.

Whether or not he's doing it deliberately, the listing is misleading, particularly for anyone not familiar with the break-up of the sprues.

A rhino without the accessory sprue is not a complete kit, since it doesn't include all of the parts required to actually build a complete rhino.

Anyone not aware that the hatches and storm bolter don't come on the rhino sprues is going to think (because he says as much) that they're getting a complete kit when they're not.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:

I don't think at all he is trying to mislead people. If you can't be bothered to read a full listing, why are shopping on ebay, let alone be allowed to have a credit card. (this is not directed to you Polonius, just morons who don't read and then bitch when their stupidity comes back to bite them in the ass.

Do you honestly believe that he isn't trying to mislead people? I'm not saying he's defrauding them, but do you really think the way he posts his auctions has nothing to do with making people think they're bidding on a complete kit?

I think he's trying to play gotcha. I think people should read an entire auction, and that anybody that didn't get their part learned a lesson, but there's no reason not to simply state: "you are bidding on a rhino kit missing the accesory sprue," rather than list that it includes the hull, the tracks, etc.

Swordbreaker wrote:If it's got your worried enough that you have to post on a forum asking if it's legit or not, then I'd say that's your first really big clue not to buy from this guy.

As an aside, when you see people selling just the sprue, these are knock-off recasts made from a mold of the original sprue. We've been seeing tons of these all over e-bay for a while now. Because the cost of GW's kits has skyrocketed so badly it's created huge profit margins for these remolded knock-offs. Chances are at this point, it if came off e-bay and not in box, then it's a made-in-China recast.

I always thought how long it would take before the rips offs for warhammer would be caught on by them,
how did you come across they have been doing it on ebay o_o are there any tips on the casts it self
that makes it clear / noticeable ?

Swordbreaker wrote:As an aside, when you see people selling just the sprue, these are knock-off recasts made from a mold of the original sprue.

Given the costs of plastic tooling, I would seriously doubt that. Metal recasts pop up on eBay quite often. Plastics? I've never come across any, nor heard of anyone who has received such a thing.

At the very least, I know the sprues I've sold certainly haven't been knock-offs... at least unless someone in GW's warehouse is tampering with stock.

Most of the sprues on eBay come from people buying Battle Force or Army boxes and splitting them up.

insaniak wrote:Whether or not he's doing it deliberately, the listing is misleading, particularly for anyone not familiar with the break-up of the sprues.

A rhino without the accessory sprue is not a complete kit, since it doesn't include all of the parts required to actually build a complete rhino.

Anyone not aware that the hatches and storm bolter don't come on the rhino sprues is going to think (because he says as much) that they're getting a complete kit when they're not.

thank you this is what i tried to say.

that and the seller took part of the item description , and stuck it towards the end where his s&h description is . is just weird isnt it?

Lunahound wrote:
no im not really mad as im not the buyer . but to sneak a line like that after he made the item descrption and sneaking it into
the S&H section is pretty amusing. IMO atleast, if he wasnt trying to hide that line , he could easily have stated behind the ( This is a complete Rhino Kit with missing accessory sprue )
instead of what you see.

But of course, legally hes at 0 fault , just the ethic is shady.

Yeah I didn't mean you're mad...but he included the wording in the description paragraph...not the shipping and handling section (which is usually at the bottom of all listings btw), not sure where you got that.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:

Lunahound wrote:
no im not really mad as im not the buyer . but to sneak a line like that after he made the item descrption and sneaking it into
the S&H section is pretty amusing. IMO atleast, if he wasnt trying to hide that line , he could easily have stated behind the ( This is a complete Rhino Kit with missing accessory sprue )
instead of what you see.

But of course, legally hes at 0 fault , just the ethic is shady.

Yeah I didn't mean you're mad...but he included the wording in the description paragraph...not the shipping and handling section (which is usually at the bottom of all listings btw), not sure where you got that.

this is what i meant :



The typical description paragraph.
Pink = Item details
Blue = Seller info
Green = Item S&H details

Almost every ebay sales is garaunteed to follow similar paragraphs like this.
and its so weird he stuck the last line ( back in pink ) behind the s&h line right

Ok, its not standard, but I don't see how that labels him shady and underhanded...if anything it labels potential buyers as stupid...

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:Ok, its not standard, but I don't see how that labels him shady and underhanded...if anything it labels potential buyers as stupid...

It's shady if he's aware of the fact that people are misled by his listing, and doesn't do anything to change that.


A good seller doesn't take advantage of a potential customer's stupidity. They try instead to ensure that even the less cluey customers understand exactly what it is that they are buying.

Trust is a very important commodity for an online business.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:Ok, its not standard, but I don't see how that labels him shady and underhanded...if anything it labels potential buyers as stupid...

well sorry, i guess i just wanted to help voice opinions from the stupid group T-T

lol like last christmas when a guy sold a psp, box for just under a hundred.

its a legitimate sales tactic i think. just like the pop ups that are adds for pop up blockers.
or the guy on 25th street that stabs people and sells them first aid kits.

I think if this would have been me as buyer and the seller told me I should have read the whole thing. I would have felt really stupid for not paying attention.

Read the fine print and buyer beware.

Zip Napalm wrote:I think if this would have been me as buyer and the seller told me I should have read the whole thing. I would have felt really stupid for not paying attention.

Not paying attention to what?

He says that it's a complete kit. The buyer can't be expected to know what's on individual sprues. If they bid on something that is listed as a complete kit, they have every right to expect to receive a complete kit.

Again, not saying he's necessarily being deliberately misleading. But it is misleading, and needs to be reworded if he wants to avoid more negative feedback.

Zip Napalm wrote:Read the fine print and buyer beware.

Small businesses that run on that philosophy generally don't last very long.

insaniak wrote:

Zip Napalm wrote:Read the fine print and buyer beware.

Small businesses that run on that philosophy generally don't last very long.

True. Unfortunately, there's always someone willing to take their place.

Yeah, but I think it's legitimate to leave negative feedback asking
for clarity in laying out a description.

insaniak wrote:

Zip Napalm wrote:I think if this would have been me as buyer and the seller told me I should have read the whole thing. I would have felt really stupid for not paying attention.

Not paying attention to what?

He says that it's a complete kit. The buyer can't be expected to know what's on individual sprues. If they bid on something that is listed as a complete kit, they have every right to expect to receive a complete kit.

Again, not saying he's necessarily being deliberately misleading. But it is misleading, and needs to be reworded if he wants to avoid more negative feedback.

Not paying attention to the last line where it's stated your not getting the accessory sprue. I usually read through a whole seller's description looking for the words "factory sealed" before I even think about hitting the "buy now" button. Then I know I have some semblance of recourse.

Zip Napalm wrote:Not paying attention to the last line where it's stated your not getting the accessory sprue.

Which means exactly what to someone not familiar with what's on that sprue?

If you're buying your first rhino, which is going to mean more to you: The statement that the accessory sprue is not included, or the statement that the auction includes a complete kit?

Would it not seem reasonable to assume that the 'accessory' sprue contains 'accessories' rather than parts that are required to assemble the tank? Particularly when the auction specifically states that it includes a complete rhino?

This is the reason that I specifically state in my own rhino listings that the included sprues contain the parts to assemble only the basic chassis, and don't include hatches, weapons or accessories.

If im buying something is complete, i expect it to contains the same items as if i bought it freshly off GW shop. ( minus the shrink wraps or box i guess )

To make matter more confusing, the seller adds in info on Rhino variants , and finally to say not include the accessory sprue , its almost like saying the sprue was NEVER part of the rhinon kit.

If he isnt doing it on purpose, then wow, but if he is, then i still say he is pretty smart at wording the sales.

It never says complete kit, it says complete Rhino, which it is technically.

This happens in advertising daily, yet people say nothing, why is this guy so evil?

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:It never says complete kit, it says complete Rhino, which it is technically.

This happens in advertising daily, yet people say nothing, why is this guy so evil?

I'm not sure if you're simply not understanding what we're saying, or if you're being intentionally obtuse.

The item description is misleading. It simply is! He may not have done it intentionally, but it is going to confuse people that assume "complete Rhino" = "Complete kit," which is a semantic difference.

Not how I'm not saying he's doing anything illegal, or going to hell, or is worse than Pol Pot. All we're saying is that he's doing something that looks deliberately misleading, and that's a business practice that turns me and a lot of other people off. It's also doing business in bad faith: hoping people are stupid or not paying attention is the sort of behavior that should lead to a negative feedback.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:It never says complete kit, it says complete Rhino, which it is technically.

This happens in advertising daily, yet people say nothing, why is this guy so evil?

Just didnt think a simple auction would result in such technicality just to earn some extra dollar.

LunaHound wrote:

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:It never says complete kit, it says complete Rhino, which it is technically.

This happens in advertising daily, yet people say nothing, why is this guy so evil?

alright alright you win mr lawyer. Just didnt think a simple auction would result in such technicality
just to earn some extra dollar.

Actually, I think contract law would say that "Complete Rhino" is a term that would be interpreted as, you know, complete. Unless the term is defined otherwise, complete Rhino means what everybody thinks it does. Now, that doesn't change the fact that the page did say explicitly that the auction doesn't include the sprue, but absolutely nobody is going to read "Complete Rhino" as anything other than a full kit.

Polonius wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:It never says complete kit, it says complete Rhino, which it is technically.

This happens in advertising daily, yet people say nothing, why is this guy so evil?

alright alright you win mr lawyer. Just didnt think a simple auction would result in such technicality
just to earn some extra dollar.

Actually, I think contract law would say that "Complete Rhino" is a term that would be interpreted as, you know, complete. Unless the term is defined otherwise, complete Rhino means what everybody thinks it does. Now, that doesn't change the fact that the page did say explicitly that the auction doesn't include the sprue, but absolutely nobody is going to read "Complete Rhino" as anything other than a full kit.

Its just shaddy buisness to list something as complete when on the same paragraph he also states its missing parts.
Cant think w/e to call it . But certainly i'll be very careful dealing with opened box sales .

What worries me are the type of other sellers that might be taking advantage of things like this, and getting away with it.

LunaHound wrote:

Polonius wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:It never says complete kit, it says complete Rhino, which it is technically.

This happens in advertising daily, yet people say nothing, why is this guy so evil?

alright alright you win mr lawyer. Just didnt think a simple auction would result in such technicality
just to earn some extra dollar.

Actually, I think contract law would say that "Complete Rhino" is a term that would be interpreted as, you know, complete. Unless the term is defined otherwise, complete Rhino means what everybody thinks it does. Now, that doesn't change the fact that the page did say explicitly that the auction doesn't include the sprue, but absolutely nobody is going to read "Complete Rhino" as anything other than a full kit.

Its just shaddy buisness to list something as complete when on the same paragraph he also states its missing parts.
Cant think w/e to call it . But certainly i'll be very careful dealing with opened box sales .

What worries me are the type of other sellers that might be taking advantage of things like this, and getting away with it.

but its not a complete kit, a complete kit would have everything you needed to field the rhino even without the extra bits.

codex rhino has a stormbolter. the kit doesn't have one. but technically you don't need the belly of the tank or the rhino over hang just glue the two sides togethor and put the doors on it. its a GW based conversion with everything you need to play.

or just set the back door with the side doors glued flat on eather side of it and call it a day.

He's deliberately misleading.

He shows a picture says it's "complete".

If I still bought things on eBay, I'd SNAD him for the full amount, because it's *NOT* complete, so it is Significantly Not As Described.

JohnHwangDD wrote:He's deliberately misleading.

He shows a picture says it's "complete".

If I still bought things on eBay, I'd SNAD him for the full amount, because it's *NOT* complete, so it is Significantly Not As Described.

because negative feedback when your $30 in the hole is not worth anything. i didn't know you could do that i'll keep that in mind.

Zip Napalm wrote:I think if this would have been me as buyer and the seller told me I should have read the whole thing. I would have felt really stupid for not paying attention.

Read the fine print and buyer beware.

I didn't know the hatches and bolters come on the "accessory sprue" because I've never build one of the new rhinos. So that sprue is actually essential to building a "complete kit". Seems misleading to me as the listing mentions nothing of the sort. If the sprue simply prevents you from putting a dozer-blade on like the Leman Russ kit, that's not so bad, but to remove the parts from the kit allowing you to put hatches on and *complete* the kit is cheeky, especially when he says in no uncertain terms that the kit is "Complete".

No hatches =not complete IMO

Cupola and cupola hatches are on the accessory sprue.
Rhino hatches (main top, side and rear) are all on the main rhino sprues.

Caveat Emptor should be flEaBay's motto.

As an aside. I have purchased a "complete" rhino, unassembled and NIB, it was not a complete (it was missing the turret mounting plate and HK launcher, and the accessories were ziploc'd) RHINO kit, but since the the turret plate isn't used on a Rhino and you don't have to give it a HK, I don't believe he was misleading in his ad. Besides, at 15% under retail (including shipping) I wasn't complaining.

I don't consider what he did wrong. It is the buyer's responsibility to check details at an auction of any kind - ebay included.

Deliberately misleading is telling a blind person "it's safe to cross the street" when cars are zipping by. Deliberately misleading is not saying "The model is complete with these parts, and for clarification - this piece is not included in my definition of complete." Even if the first half and second half are separated by other crap, crap that displays how truly vapid ebay sellers can be, the description defines the sellers perspective - no one else's.

I do enjoy "I don't combine shipping on big stuff, because big stuff = expensive to ship." God forbid the $1000000 you charge to send one figure parcel post be used for shipping.

chromedog wrote:Cupola and cupola hatches are on the accessory sprue.
Rhino hatches (main top, side and rear) are all on the main rhino sprues.

Caveat Emptor should be flEaBay's motto.

I'm going to point out that I mentioned the cupola in the first page of this thread. Why is this important? How can we expect someone to read a two page thread if we can't expect someone to read a four line "paragraph"?

chromedog wrote:Caveat Emptor should be flEaBay's motto.

While I agree, eBay also has almost no protection for sellers, a fact that's making it untenable for a lot of people to sell their wares there anymore. It's essentially a giant badly run flea market where both sides are screwed by the other.

LunaHound wrote:

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:

Lunahound wrote:
no im not really mad as im not the buyer . but to sneak a line like that after he made the item descrption and sneaking it into
the S&H section is pretty amusing. IMO atleast, if he wasnt trying to hide that line , he could easily have stated behind the ( This is a complete Rhino Kit with missing accessory sprue )
instead of what you see.

But of course, legally hes at 0 fault , just the ethic is shady.

Yeah I didn't mean you're mad...but he included the wording in the description paragraph...not the shipping and handling section (which is usually at the bottom of all listings btw), not sure where you got that.

this is what i meant :



The typical description paragraph.
Pink = Item details
Blue = Seller info
Green = Item S&H details

Almost every ebay sales is garaunteed to follow similar paragraphs like this.
and its so weird he stuck the last line ( back in pink ) behind the s&h line right

Well having read it all, it appears that it clearly states therre is no acc sprue included (it even says for clarification purposes).. While it does say complete rhino, it also says no acc. sprue. One must read all the fine print. You've heard the saying Caveat Emptor! right.. The buyer beware... In this case, just a bit of simple attention to detail on both parts would have easily fixed this.

I see nothing wrong with the seller, nor his auction.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:It never says complete kit, it says complete Rhino, which it is technically.

Technically it's NOT a complete Rhino, as it's missing it's copulas. Hell, BWB sells the exact same thing for $14, but his says "This kit requires a stormbolter bit and a round crew hatch..."

I would say that if they're required, it is NOT complete and therefore the description is wrong.

Zip Napalm wrote:I think if this would have been me as buyer and the seller told me I should have read the whole thing. I would have felt really stupid for not paying attention.

Read the fine print and buyer beware.

couldnt have said it better and if all else fails, ask...

two_heads_talking wrote:Well having read it all, it appears that it clearly states therre is no acc sprue included (it even says for clarification purposes).. While it does say complete rhino, it also says no acc. sprue. One must read all the fine print. You've heard the saying Caveat Emptor! right.. The buyer beware... In this case, just a bit of simple attention to detail on both parts would have easily fixed this.

I see nothing wrong with the seller, nor his auction.

It does bury this last piece of vital information at the end after the usual blah about posting nicely and thankyou for looking etc. I missed it the first time I looked. It should have been written alongside the information detailing the contents of the kit, the parts describing the sprues in the kit and where he claims it's "complete".

If the seller isn't being disingenuous and trying to play down the fact that the kit isn't nearly as 'complete' as he claims then he needs to re write his auctions. They are misleading, deliberately or not. He comes across as being a bit crafty in the way the auction has been worded, he should be up front about the contents of the kit, not tell you what you're getting and then spacing out his description with some waffle before adding a note to mention that there's stuff you're not getting.

JohnHwangDD wrote:He's deliberately misleading.

He shows a picture says it's "complete".

If I still bought things on eBay, I'd SNAD him for the full amount, because it's *NOT* complete, so it is Significantly Not As Described.

Indeed. Now, it may have been a while since I last constructed a Rhino, but I do believe the Cupola and Storm Bolter (both parts *necessary* to field a WYSIWYG, and therefore complete, Rhino) are both on the 'accessory' sprue, no?

Ergo, selling the sprues necessary for the Hull and Tracks, without said Cuploa and Storm Bolter, does not, cannot, and will not contitute selling a complete Rhino...surely?

I say this guy is an arse.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:

Polonius wrote:@ Joyous: I should have been clearer in my remark about professionalism. I've dealt with pros, but I tend to buy the real used lots that individuals sell.

Right or wrong, it's really hard to argue that the guy wasn't trying to be misleading. Did he include what he said? Of course. Was he trying to trick people? I think it's pretty clear that he was.

I don't think at all he is trying to mislead people. If you can't be bothered to read a full listing, why are shopping on ebay, let alone be allowed to have a credit card. (this is not directed to you Polonius, just morons who don't read and then bitch when their stupidity comes back to bite them in the ass.

Sounds like you are the guy selling the product the way you are defending him.

If he was clear about the state of the kit, the seller would have said so at or near the beginning of the description.
Ya know, somewhere near where it says that the auction is a complete kit?

Sliding this little disclaimer at the end is technically legit, but shady as hell doesn't even begin to describe what a arsehole the seller is.

But you are right about reading the listing completely.
The reason being is that there are a lot of spurious characters on ebay trying to be a slick sheister. Like this guy.
Once you hit enter bid button, its a contract.

Hellfury wrote:If he was clear about the state of the kit, the seller would have said so at or near the beginning of the description.
Ya know, somewhere near where it says that the auction is a complete kit?

Sliding this little disclaimer at the end is technically legit, but shady as hell doesn't even begin to describe what a arsehole the seller is.

But you are right about reading the listing completely.
The reason being is that there are a lot of spurious characters on ebay trying to be a slick sheister. Like this guy.
Once you hit enter bid button, its a contract.

Okay, but here is something to remember: What about people who have NEVER built a Rhino (like me) and don't know exactly what is on the "accessory sprue"

Take me for example, when I looked at that auction, I thought "Okay, so I get a complete rhino, but not the useless accessories like maybe different looking front plates or turrets or whatever, but AT LEAST I will get everything needed to use the Rhino based on WYSIWYG" Of course, now knowing that things that ARE necessary for the vehicle to be complete (Complete as in minimum WYSIWYG compliance and/or no holes in the Rhino), then calling it "complete" is not even close. On what definiation of "complete" is a rhino that is not WYSIWYG-compliant and would have open (non-intentionally) holes/gaps in it?

Lastly:

Hellfury wrote:Sounds like you are the guy selling the product the way you are defending him.

I really have to agree with him, you are defending this guy as if it was actually you in disguise...

Yup big conspiracy, its really me.

Sadly I knew it would devolve into this. When people get desperate they throw out random allegations.

If you would read the details, which most of you obviously don't, you will see the seller is from Medina, Ohio (I couldn't even point out Ohio on a US map), I am from the frozen north you Yanks call Canada. Ottawa, Ontario to be exact, and that has been in my Avatar since I joined Dakka.


This is a simple case of buyer beware. If you did a little work, and read the item description you wouldn't have got burned, or won't get burned. If you are a person to read one line and buy something, then you get whatever he sends you.

And I still believe the auction is fine. He states complete RHINO, which it is. None of the vehicle accessory sprue pieces need to go on the rhino. He also explicitly states there is NO Vehicle accessory sprue.

If you don't know what sprues come in the kit, wouldn't it make a little sense to ask a buddy what the Accessory sprue is before you order then?

don't lie joyous... we all know that ohio is probably the location of the sweat shop you use to setup all of your fraudulent and shady ebay scams from.

If it isn't you (and no this isn't an allegation, it is just deductive reasoning) then why would you say something like this:

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:I have seen his auctions before, never seemed bad to me, the description he gives lets you know you need a vehicle accessory sprue to finish the kit, but otherwise the the tank is complete.

I'm not sure If I read about this guy on Warseer, or here on Dakka, but he has history, and seem to be pretty decent.

How can you know of his history, and that history 'to be pretty decent' when you cant even see the sellers name?

Don't take it the wrong way or get overly defensive, I am just genuinely curious how you can know this information about a seller whose name isn't disclosed if it isn't you.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:If you would read the details, which most of you obviously don't, you will see the seller is from Medina, Ohio (I couldn't even point out Ohio on a US map), I am from the frozen north you Yanks call Canada. Ottawa, Ontario to be exact, and that has been in my Avatar since I joined Dakka.

Not saying you are lying mate, but that little United States flag next your username doesn't help that defense.

In your defense, those flags aren't always correct (that and Ottowa is close enough to the states for the IP to read from the U.S.), but to the casual observer, it is one thing that can be used to pick apart such a defense as you have given.

Joyous...a complete Rhino, i.e. one that is WYSIWYG legal, and shows all it's basic gear on the model, requires the Turret Hatch and Storm Bolter, both of which come from the Space Marine Tank Accessory Sprue.

Ergo, selling a Rhino Hull and Track Assembly sans these pieces, is NOT selling a complete Rhino by any stretch of the imagination. The picture he uses has the Hatch and Storm Bolter in clear view. He does not supply. Thus, the Seller has used this picture to intimate what comprises a complete Rhino, and the Auction does NOT match the picture, as it simply is not for a complete Rhino.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Joyous...a complete Rhino, i.e. one that is WYSIWYG legal, and shows all it's basic gear on the model, requires the Turret Hatch and Storm Bolter, both of which come from the Space Marine Tank Accessory Sprue.

Ergo, selling a Rhino Hull and Track Assembly sans these pieces, is NOT selling a complete Rhino by any stretch of the imagination. The picture he uses has the Hatch and Storm Bolter in clear view. He does not supply. Thus, the Seller has used this picture to intimate what comprises a complete Rhino, and the Auction does NOT match the picture, as it simply is not for a complete Rhino.

Quoted for truth.

SNAD alert.

Yeah, again, things like the bolter turret are things NECESSARY for a complete rhino (begin WYSIWYG compliant), and if those aren't included, then again, not a complete rhino..

@Joyous: Yeah, didn't notice the location thing, but it was just an observation. Besides, you call Ottawa "frozen"? BULL, you are getting like -7 out there, and I am here sitting here in -25 near Winnipeg.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

two_heads_talking wrote:Well having read it all, it appears that it clearly states therre is no acc sprue included (it even says for clarification purposes).. While it does say complete rhino, it also says no acc. sprue. One must read all the fine print. You've heard the saying Caveat Emptor! right.. The buyer beware... In this case, just a bit of simple attention to detail on both parts would have easily fixed this.

I see nothing wrong with the seller, nor his auction.

It does bury this last piece of vital information at the end after the usual blah about posting nicely and thankyou for looking etc. I missed it the first time I looked. It should have been written alongside the information detailing the contents of the kit, the parts describing the sprues in the kit and where he claims it's "complete".

If the seller isn't being disingenuous and trying to play down the fact that the kit isn't nearly as 'complete' as he claims then he needs to re write his auctions. They are misleading, deliberately or not. He comes across as being a bit crafty in the way the auction has been worded, he should be up front about the contents of the kit, not tell you what you're getting and then spacing out his description with some waffle before adding a note to mention that there's stuff you're not getting.

That's what happens when you scan text. If you don't read the whole thing, you miss out. Personally if I'm interested I read, if there is a question, I use the 'ask seller a question' button. If one is too damn lazy to ask and assumes, well you know what assuming does right? Again, this could have been written better, but the buyer could have learned to read too.

First point:

Your poll is an invitation to a cop out as I see it. Either the auction lot is legit or it is not. There is no 'shady' in law.

Second point:

I am a buyer who successfully defended a non-payment case of a fraudulent auction. I got suspicuious after the fact, and was warned by someone from Warseer. warseer helped me defend my case to eBay.

In my experience it takes weeks for eBay to do anything and they are very reluctant to act even when there is good evidence of a seller breaking the rules. This is your first problem, even if we do agree there is a case to answer, and even if we do word it for you so that you can show the auctuion broke eBay rules, still they wont do nothing.

No. Their first action is to send macro form letters telling you how to contact the seller (with your own name adress and phone number) - I baulked on this as I was NOT going to give my home details to a con man. ebay didnt care and just spammed the same 'advice' over and over. To put it bluntly they only care about minimising overheads dealing with customer service cases and disputes is an overhead) and getting their %. Unless you dig your heels and show you wont go away and are taking this up with your local trading standards body in they are happy to let the customer hang out to dry. It doesnt help here that you are dealing with a foreign transaction (mine was within the same country).

Be parepared for a long battle.

Third point:

I won my case because while the items sold were in the correct category (Epic forgeworld miniatures masquerading as 40K scale) the item decription and title were not accurate. You only need to win one of these arguemtns to challenge an auction, though two or more is better. Frankly you can only hope to get him on an unclear and misleading main description. Title and category appear to both be legit.

Look here:
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/listing-ov.html

ok, its the Uk site, but it gives you the idea. Look and Canadian and US law based eBay sites for your own case.

Good luck, if you want more help, feel free to ask further questions as needed.

two_heads_talking wrote:
If one is too damn lazy to ask and assumes, well you know what assuming does right?

Makes an Ass out of you and Ming? I think Ming might have something to say about that!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I think at this point we're either talking at cross purposes, or people simply aren't going to relent.

When you have people repeatedly saying "sure it's legal, it's just misleading and bad business practices" and others respond "hey, let the buyer beware," I think it's time we all realize we agree. Of course it's legal. Of course it's operating in bad faith. Sellers shouldn't do that, but buyers should be aware.

Now, anybody that says the seller is utterly innocent and is practicing business the way it's meant to, well, I don't know what sort of world they want to live in, but I'd love to hear arguments about how this seller is a paragon of virtue.

I think the resolution of the seller being stuck with the item, but leaving negative feedback is entirely apporpriate in this case. The sller got what he bargained for, so shouldn't get his money back, but it was a negative experience! The seller was hoping to find somebody that wouldn't read every line of the auction, and did. this is why negative feedback exists: to warn other buyers of sellers that are potential problems.

I also have to say, the guys reaction to the negative feedback could have been a bit more professional. a comment like "all items specified in item description were included but buyer was still unhappy." is a lot more convincing than his shock and rage. Frankly, I read his response and more or less was convinced that he's a jerk.

Ozymandias wrote:Makes an Ass out of you and Ming? I think Ming might have something to say about that!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

He is a bit merciless...

He also claims it to be new.

Which is untrue. GW do not, to my knowledge, sell such sprues to anyone anymore, whether wholesale or direct. The box would have been opened, requiring the breaking of the Shrinkwrap. At that point, it is no longer new and automatically becomes defined as 2nd hand.

So thats two extremely misleading statements which lead to believe the seller is an arse.

Hellfury wrote:If it isn't you (and no this isn't an allegation, it is just deductive reasoning) then why would you say something like this:

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:I have seen his auctions before, never seemed bad to me, the description he gives lets you know you need a vehicle accessory sprue to finish the kit, but otherwise the the tank is complete.

I'm not sure If I read about this guy on Warseer, or here on Dakka, but he has history, and seem to be pretty decent.

How can you know of his history, and that history 'to be pretty decent' when you cant even see the sellers name?

Don't take it the wrong way or get overly defensive, I am just genuinely curious how you can know this information about a seller whose name isn't disclosed if it isn't you.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:If you would read the details, which most of you obviously don't, you will see the seller is from Medina, Ohio (I couldn't even point out Ohio on a US map), I am from the frozen north you Yanks call Canada. Ottawa, Ontario to be exact, and that has been in my Avatar since I joined Dakka.

Not saying you are lying mate, but that little United States flag next your username doesn't help that defense.

In your defense, those flags aren't always correct (that and Ottowa is close enough to the states for the IP to read from the U.S.), but to the casual observer, it is one thing that can be used to pick apart such a defense as you have given.

GAH! I should stop posting at work...we are on IBMs main network and our IP is out of the US...when I post from home, it shows the little Canadian flag

And as for knowing his auctions...that actually was a mistake on my part. I remembered someone selling rhinos exactly like this, and thought it was this guy, but someone in this thread pointed out that Battlewagon Bits does the same thing, and thats where I knew it from. The 'from Warseer or Dakka' comment sort of adds support to my theory that I wasn't sure where I had heard about him, and as a result It was BWB all along, lol.

Anyways I still defend him, as I am a nitpicker for reading all the fine print when I buy things, and I wouldn't miss something like this. But to a 'skimming' glance it might be misleading.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:The box would have been opened, requiring the breaking of the Shrinkwrap. At that point, it is no longer new and automatically becomes defined as 2nd hand.

Actually, this makes it no longer mint. It is still new, as it has never been used before. As the auction winner is not buying it directly from the producer, it's 2nd hand. 2nd hand has nothing to do with its classification of new or mint, only the source of purchase. I used to deal with a lot of action figure collectors(being one myself), so I made sure to school myself on this information using Toyfare and other such Figure Collection Guides that have pricing based on rarity and whether it's Mint in Box(damaged or mint box makes a difference, too), new, used, repackaged, or missing pieces.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:

Anyways I still defend him, as I am a nitpicker for reading all the fine print when I buy things, and I wouldn't miss something like this. But to a 'skimming' glance it might be misleading.

Nice understatement. My point, and the point of others, is that if it could be misleading, why? I think the auction was written in such a way as to encourage the misreading, not to accurately and completely apprise a seller of it's condition. If the seller is trying to be misleading, than that's something that I think really deserves the negative feedback and a certain bad reputation. I read auctions fully, but I still don't like that people are trying to play gotcha games on eBay.

I don't like the gotcha games either, and maybe that's why I am not opposed to what he has done here. I love not getting screwed by those kind of people and even turning things around on them at times.

I wouldn't give this negative feedback, but I would send him an email with this thread linked in it

EDIT: I DO have a little yankee flag by name...damn it all.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:I don't like the gotcha games either, and maybe that's why I am not opposed to what he has done here. I love not getting screwed by those kind of people and even turning things around on them at times.

I wouldn't give this negative feedback, but I would send him an email with this thread linked in it

I think there's just been some confusion based on your posts. You seemed to be implying that he was doing nothing wrong and that you didn't find any fault in his actions, which frankly confused me.

I see what you mean about spotting these guys, it's one of life's little pleasures to look at an auction and in 5 seconds say "shady" and move on. I'd give negative feedback because the seller seems to be working hard at maintaining the illusion that it's a truly complete kit. A misread sentence is one thing, that happens. I could see a buyer being pretty upset with this guy.

The guy is a scammer. Another reason why you should support your FLGS.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:...as a result It was BWB all along, lol.

Hmm. Interesting. As well as surprising.

Hellfury wrote:

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:...as a result It was BWB all along, lol.

Hmm. Interesting. As well as surprising.

Care to quantify that statement? The things in question are identical products, including what pieces are missing. And even when I first mentioned hearing about the 'guy' I made a note to say I wasn't sure where I'd heard about it.

Oh wait, that ruins your little conspiracy theory, sorry.

Polonius wrote:I think there's just been some confusion based on your posts. You seemed to be implying that he was doing nothing wrong and that you didn't find any fault in his actions, which frankly confused me.

I actually don't find anything wrong with what he did. *IF he didn't put that last line in, I'd have major issues with the guy and his auctions. I may even buy it just to get even with him by way of Ebay auction protection

olympia wrote:The guy is a scammer. Another reason why you should support your FLGS.

Very true in regards to buying locally. If in doubt, buy it locally. My local GW has sold me kits without pieces before, but always replaced any missing pieces immediately (usually by opening a new box and givig me said piece).

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:I actually don't find anything wrong with what he did. *IF he didn't put that last line in, I'd have major issues with the guy and his auctions. I may even buy it just to get even with him by way of Ebay auction protection

So you seriously don't see a problem with him stating that it's a complete rhino when it's not?

You wouldn't be the slightest bit annoyed if you bought something listed as 'complete' that turned out to be missing key components required to complete its assembly?

@ Joyous: The reason you confusing this guy with BWB is interesting is that BWB goes out of it's way to explain what's included, and what's missing. This guy goes out of his way to obfuscate what is missing. the fact that you conflated the two seems to indicate that you assume he's operating on the same level of being forthright.

I do have a hypothetical for you. You say you don't see anythying wrong with what he did. In an ideal world, would every business operate like him, or is there some courtesy, respect, or ethics that would be followed by merchants? I'm asking because if you're just a hard core social darwinism, then you might even encourage this sort of behavior to seperate the strong from the weak.

insaniak wrote:

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:I actually don't find anything wrong with what he did. *IF he didn't put that last line in, I'd have major issues with the guy and his auctions. I may even buy it just to get even with him by way of Ebay auction protection

So you seriously don't see a problem with him stating that it's a complete rhino when it's not?

You wouldn't be the slightest bit annoyed if you bought something listed as 'complete' that turned out to be missing key components required to complete its assembly?

Personally no. I don't just read the 'complete rhino' I read the whole description. Then I wouldn't bid, as it is missing the accessory sprue.


It is not missing 'key components'. It is missing a couple cupolas and some weapon accessories. Both can be easily scrounged or plasticarded. I would just be happy I got a sweet deal ona rhino.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:

Hellfury wrote:

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:...as a result It was BWB all along, lol.

Hmm. Interesting. As well as surprising.

Care to quantify that statement? The things in question are identical products, including what pieces are missing. And even when I first mentioned hearing about the 'guy' I made a note to say I wasn't sure where I'd heard about it.

Oh wait, that ruins your little conspiracy theory, sorry.

First off, I was replying to the assertion you made that it was a BWB auction.
I didn't challenge that assertion, so why are you being so defensive about it?

Good lord man. I know it is acceptable if not promoted form on the internet to fly off the handle for no apparent reason over nothing, but sheesh...

My quesiton is this: why would you label an auction as being complete, except that it's missing parts, and seperate the words complete and missing by paragraphs of text, except to entice buyers to think that it's truly complete?

Can anybody think of a reason the auction was listed this way other than to be misleading?

Polonius wrote:@ Joyous: The reason you confusing this guy with BWB is that BWB goes out of it's way to explain what's included, and what's missing. This guy goes out of his way to obfuscate what is missing.

I do have a hypothetical for you. You say you don't see anythying wrong with what he did. In an ideal world, would every business operate like him, or is there some courtesy, respect, or ethics that would be followed by merchants? I'm asking because if you're just a hard core social darwinism, then you might even encourage this sort of behavior to seperate the strong from the weak.

Bah to many posting to reply, lol. In an ideal world, no every business would not operate like him, nor am I saying that they should. All I am saying (or trying to say) is that the responsibility should be on the buyer here. The seller has provided an acceptable description of the product, if it does stray from the normal a bit. In today's world there shoudl be a lot higher level of buyer awareness, but there isn't. People are getting dumber, and while Darwin was a bit of a nut, his theory does hold some promise

I mean if people keep eating deep fried twinkies don't they deserve what they get?

If nobody bid on this guy's auction, he would likely change his business strategy pretty quickly. But people keep bidding, in ignorance, or with full knowledge, whatever the reason, so he can keep his status quo.

Polonius wrote:Can anybody think of a reason the auction was listed this way other than to be misleading?

Simple error when making the listing? Or oversight on his part?

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:Personally no. I don't just read the 'complete rhino' I read the whole description. Then I wouldn't bid, as it is missing the accessory sprue.

And if you were unfamilliar with the kit, and didn't realise that those key components were on the accessory sprue? Shouldn't you be able to assume that the kit is complete, because he says it is, and that the accessory sprue doesn't include anything that is required to complete the kit?

It is not missing 'key components'. It is missing a couple cupolas and some weapon accessories.

Without the cupola and the plug that goes beside it, you have two great gaping holes in the top of the rhino.

That certainly fits my definition of 'key components'... without them, the rhino is not completely built.

Both can be easily scrounged or plasticarded.

That doesn't make them not a part of the rhino.

If I sold you a car, told you it was 'complete but missing some accessories' and when it turned up it was missing both front doors, you'd be ok with that?

Because, you know, you can knock up some doors out of fibreglass, or pick them up from a wreckers. It's not like they're an actual part of the car...

@ joyous: if all you're saying is that the buyer should be more responsible, than why and what are you arguing? I think everybody agrees that the posting was legal, and that buyer needs to beware. You've conceded that the posting could be misleading, and that he's no operating how you'd like an ideal business to operate. All I'm saying is that this is a lousy way to do business. I think we both are right in our major point, I just think you've gotten turned around into trying to defend the guy as being above reproach when I think it's pretty clear he's at least incredibly sloppy in his listings, if not intentionally misleading.

As for error or oversight, I'm naturally willing to accept that. The whole "never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity" rule. The reason I reject that argument is that he lists what is included, he includes a picture of a hypothetical rhino and so should know what's included in a complete model, and as you've mentioned, other sellers are selling the same basic product (rhinos missing the top hatches/accessories) couple this with his own lauding of his feedback, and I'm less willing to extend him the benefit of the doubt. I"m also a person that tends to favor cutting a buyer slack over a seller.

@Joyous - I think you're very misguided in trying to defend him. Either the auction is properly described, or it isn't.

In this case, he's saying it's "mint, new and complete" but "needs parts"?

That is an inconsistent description, because, if it isn't mint complete on sprue, it won't need parts.

Similarly, the picture is not accurate with what can be assembled with what he actually sends.

As he's already had Negative feedback, and chooses NOT to amend his images or descrption, the only conclusion is that he intends to confuse or surprise the buyer.

That is a malicious listing, and he deserves the Negatives.

As I said, if I were still willing to deal with eBay, I'd probably buy several, SNAD him, and reverse payment.

Then, if he wants anything back, he can pay my inflated S&H charges to get them.

Ebay is the cesspit of the entire internet and a scammers paradise.

I'm a bit hesitant to comment in here due to all the mud slinging in this thread, but here is my two cents.

Ebay is pretty much an online flea market, the only problem though is that you cannot actually handle and examine the products before purchasing. In this case buyers are completely reliant on sellers descriptions as to what they are purchasing which can lead to problems such as this. Ebay does however have some rules on their sales such as being in the correct categories and having an appropriate description.

This auction does in fact meet those requirements, although that may hinge more or less on ones definition of a 'complete' rhino. He does, however, explicitly state that the rhino is missing the accessory sprue. Albeit a bit sly, but not illegal according to the rules given by ebay (to my knowledge at least, I'm no lawyer mind you). I would agree that the description may be meant to confuse readers or to take advantage of those who might just overlook the full description. Overall though, nothing illegal is done here.

I would chock this up to the several ebay sellers out there that WILL take advantage of the buyers, and the best advice you can give is read the entire description. If you get the product and the description does say no accessory sprue (no matter how well they hid it), then you are out of luck. If the description says nothing at all about it then you have legal grounds to demand a refund/replacement.

I'm not so much defending him as I am condemning people who choose not to read the 'fine print' and then bitch when they get 'screwed'.

I don't think this guy is a scammer, a misguided seller maybe with some questionable business ideas, but not a scammer. Again, if he didn't include the sentence about the accessory sprue not being involved, I'd be 100% with you guys.

insaniak wrote:If I sold you a car, told you it was 'complete but missing some accessories' and when it turned up it was missing both front doors, you'd be ok with that?

Because, you know, you can knock up some doors out of fibreglass, or pick them up from a wreckers. It's not like they're an actual part of the car...

Thank you this proves my point completely. I'll explain.

If I was buying a car, but wasn't 100% sure of what was actually included in the I'd talk to a friend/co-worker/family member who does know what every piece involved does and if those pieces are included in your 'sale' description.

If I find out the car you are selling me is missing its doors (not a valid comparison, I'd have chosen windshield wipers or antenna for closer comparison) then I would weigh the cost of buying used doors over the deal I am getting with the car. If your deal makes it worth me buying a couple doors from a wrecker or getting a local greasemonkey to bang some out of sheet metal, then I would still take your deal and be glad happy I saved a bunch of money (by switching to Geico...).

Am I still not getting across my perspective here?

The key is that an appropriate description would have to be made "in good faith", and that basic test is not met.

It is deceptive and misleading.

Therefore, it is illegal and grounds for SNAD.

Using the car analogy, I show a picture of a brand new Corvette, saying that I'm selling a complete Corvette. I note that it "needs new tires."

When you get the car, the car has no bearings, hubs, wheels or tires.

But hey, you read the fine print, so it's all good, right?

...that analogy isn't even close here, so I'm not going to respond to it, other than saying I'm not responding.

You're arguing with a guy who says he'd be okay buying a new car without doors because he can get the local greasemonkey to "bang some out of sheet metal" for him.

Accept his [radical] point of view, and move on.

See, this guy gets me


EDIT: I'm only agreeing with his wording so this will hopefully end soon enough, I definately don't think my opinion is radical. And the sheet metal comment was more to prove the point, not saying thats what i'd do. But if the car is a junker anyways...

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:If I was buying a car, but wasn't 100% sure of what was actually included in the I'd talk to a friend/co-worker/family member who does know what every piece involved does and if those pieces are included in your 'sale' description.

Why would you be unsure of what was included if I had assured you that it was a complete car?

More to the point: The very fact that you might need to ask a question about what's included suggests that the listing is not as clear as it should be.

If I find out the car you are selling me is missing its doors (not a valid comparison, I'd have chosen windshield wipers or antenna for closer comparison)

I think part of the problem is simply that you're not seeing that an incomplete rhino is not a complete rhino ..

We're not just talking about antenna here. The accessory sprue includes the front hatches, without which the rhino can not be completely built.

Even ignoring the WYSIWYG aspect, which would really require the storm bolter, searchlight and smoke launchers as well for the tank to be considered complete, the tank is not complete while it has great gaping holes in its roof.

I guess I don't see that then. I wouldn't even stop to worry, I'd just break into the bitz box, or get bits off a friend and add the accessories.

I think the rhino is complete minus the hatches/accessories. It may not look great, but it is a rhino.

And saying something is complete but then adding the caveat that accessories are missing *should* tell everyone to look into it further to see what is missing.

I know when I'm in at Best buy or something and they have used products for sale, and they say missing accessories,t he first thing I do before considering purchase is check what those missing accessories are and if they can then be replaced for an acceptable cost to validate the cheaper cost of the original product.

Zip Napalm wrote:I think if this would have been me as buyer and the seller told me I should have read the whole thing. I would have felt really stupid for not paying attention.

Read the fine print and buyer beware.

I agree, although a complete rhino has a storm bolter.......so his description isn't accurate.

Hmmm, ok I see a storm bolter is standard equipment...

I thought it was purchased as a pintle mount upgrade...turns out I can have two on a rhino...

Ok with that revelation, I will say his description is no longer correct and is misleading.

I could have overlooked cupolas, but didn't know Storm bolter was codex equipment.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:I think the rhino is complete minus the hatches/accessories. It may not look great, but it is a rhino.

But it's not a complete rhino. Which is the entire point.

And saying something is complete but then adding the caveat that accessories are missing *should* tell everyone to look into it further to see what is missing.

It should. But again, that makes the listing unclear... which makes it potentially misleading to anyone who doesn't know enough to ask the question. Specifically, as mentioned before, if someone is unaware that the hatches are on the accessory sprue, they would have no reason to think they need to ask if they are included... the tank is listed as complete, and so they should be able to assume that it is complete.


Again, not necessarily deliberately misleading, but misleading none the less.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:I could have overlooked cupolas, but didn't know Storm bolter was codex equipment.

Wait... so the weapon missing is a problem, but a couple of parts that are required to actually build the model... and to which the weapon attaches in order to put it on the tank... are irrelevant...?



Takes all sorts, I guess



(Not a personal attack... I just find that point of view to be slightly amusing)

Joyous, you're point is almost solid, but you're simply being obtuse in claiming that a rhino missing components is anywhere near complete. Accessories, by virtually any defintion, are things that enhance or expand the usage of an item, but are not essential to the item working. Accessories might be so common as be virtually essential (I can't really enjoy an ipod without the ear buds), but the basic product is still complete.

the term "accessory sprue" only has meaning to people that are familiar with the kit, and those that don't will assume that, like the ear buds and charger for an iPod, are useful but not required. the key here is that the hatches and more importantly the storm bolter are key parts of the kit. It's certainly "usable" without them, but claim that it is complete is simply false by a reasonable person standard. That said, it is qualified later, but in such a way as to further mislead the buyer.

Interestingly, if you look at the Uniform commercail Code, there are provisions for implied warranty of merchantability and fitness for a specific puprose. Basically, if you seel something, it's assumed it can do what it's meant to do, and is a reasonably decen example of the type.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm#s2-314
http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm#s2-315

The argument here is that the seller is representing the item as a complete Rhino, missing accessories, yet the rhino is not usable for it's intended purpose (playing 40k), as it does not have the required components.

Ok from my most recent point then.

I did consider the rhino a complete and functional kit without the two cupolas, but a missing weapon is a missing 'key' piece (now that I actually read the rhino entry) now.

Now I can equate the sale to someone selling a 'complete' leman russ but missing its battle cannon and calling it an accesory.

And as for your ipod example, if someone sold you an ipod missing accessories, I'd be the first to assume you get no headphones. But if you were forewarned of no accessories, you should have known that or inquired about it. Even if the Ipod is listed a complete Ipod, missing accesories it is still a complete Ipod.


So in closing, I will again reiterate that with my new knowledge of a storm bolter being mandatory, I would consider the auction to be misleading and simply not right!

Fair enough.

I'd initially say the guy's a scammer, using tricks along the lines of one of those paragraphs that misdirect the reader as to what they think they see.
On the other hand, he's got a fairly high positive feedback score over a large number of deals, and this thread is focusing on a negative feedback.
What do the positive feedbacks say about the guy?

You don't get a 400+ rating with 99% positive feedback by "scamming" people. Read the auction, he's telling you what you get.

If yo ureally don't like him, tell GW that he is using their pics to sell his items. They'll insist he takes them down. Using their closet full of ninja-lawyers.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:You don't get a 400+ rating with 99% positive feedback by "scamming" people.

After looking through his listings, I'm even more confident that he's not actually trying to scam people... just needs to take a bit more care with his listings.

He sells a bit of a range of stuff... I note though that he has several negs and neuts over rhino auctions. He's rearranged the listing slightly to put the bit about the accessory sprue up with the list of included sprues, but I suspect he's going to continue to have issues with it until he actually points out which required parts are not included.

He's currently on 99.1%, which by eBay standards is, frankly, rather poor. While a couple of negs here and there are unavoidable (pretty much every seller winds up with a couple sooner or later, deserved or not) if they keep coming for the same issue, that should be a sign that you're doing something wrong (regardless of how 'legally' in the right you may be), and that you need to change whatever it is that's causing the problem.

He may not play or build the models and might not realize that the "accessories sprue" is actually necessary to completely build a Rhino.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:He may not play or build the models and might not realize that the "accessories sprue" is actually necessary to completely build a Rhino.

He deals with these all the time and doesn't know? What's he done with it exactly?

**Update , i just looked through some of the new listed auction, seems like he have taken the complaints in.

i wonder if he is part of dakka community in secret o_o

well good job either way!

LunaHound wrote:

**Update , i just looked through some of the new listed auction, seems like he have taken the complaints in.

i wonder if he is part of dakka community in secret o_o

well good job either way!

if he's not selling GW product as a gamer we can't fault him, i don't expect the girl at the DI to have a codex with her to tell me that there are 12 peices i need to finish a squad of primered goop.

yes it is misleading, but this site is the worlds biggest garage sale. you can't fault someone for doing something they didn't know was wrong.

thats funny though, a single guy on ebay fixed his listing. GW can't even produce a solid FAQ or rule set when their whole game base would follow JJ with a sharp stick saying "fix the rules!, Fix the rules!, did you fix em yet?!"

Ozymandias wrote:

two_heads_talking wrote:
If one is too damn lazy to ask and assumes, well you know what assuming does right?

Makes an Ass out of you and Ming? I think Ming might have something to say about that!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Yes, he might, but he will be eating crow while saying whatever it is he has to say.

Just posting to show my normal location

I assume this is the guy in question.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Warhammer-40k-Army-Da-Green-Tide-101-Orks-Apocalypse_W0QQitemZ300288564776QQihZ020QQcategoryZ44122QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Check this auction out and tell me those aren't Assault on Black Reach Orks. No where does it say what kit they are from or whatever.

I sell 40k bits and there is never any illusion of what I'm including.

check my sig for my ebay user name.

Um, *what* auction?

Im confused now...

I forgot link.....added now in my post above.

Yes like i said, always on the gray area especially if the buyer isnt familiar.

Why is the green tide he is selling misleading despite he does tell its AoBR orks? lets look at the simple
facts before people wish to defend his actions.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Warhammer-40k-Army-Da-Green-Tide-101-Orks-Apocalypse_W0QQitemZ300288564776QQihZ020QQcategoryZ44122QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



1) Uses Green Tide of Ork Box set / Nob colored picture , and once again throw in pics of AOBR thats too small to really tell the difference
Unless we are familiar with the difference.

2) States that its $100 off the GW Apocalypse Green Tide , 60% off retail. As if implying the green tide deal itself
have same figures as AOBR ones ( which is totally different )

3) Lists the AOBR orks as Apocalypse Green Tide in the title.

Now, lets look at the whole thing from someone new's point of view , or atleast never
seen AOBR , or ork box set close in detail.

Does Green Tide Apocalypse deal exist? Yes it does.
Is the price as cheap as stated ?
** if you dont mind it been the unposeable AOBR ones. aka complete different product
Then i guess you can compare the price that way..


If the buyer knew the green tide were actual Ork Boys / Nobs multi poseable , with accessories and stuff kit , would they spend so much on it
on abunch of AOBR stuff? **ROFL of course not.

So go for it, defend him all you want. But one thing is for certain... The seller is not new at this.

Long story short he threw in $70 worth of AOBR boys and passed off succesfully,as selling it as the $175 product.

the guy is a brilliant artist.

LunaHound wrote:the guy is a brilliant artist.

And he's still more honest than the guy who sells Miracle Floor Wax on the shopping network every night. There's always going to be charlatans and con artists in the world, there's nothing you can do to change that. the best thing you can hope for is never to get fooled yourself. You can't make the world a better place by trying to get rid of his ilk, they're as old as human avarice.

The guy is an effing scammer is what he is.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The guy is an effing scammer is what he is.

oh i know he is, i just didnt want to call him that directly as i seen so many people
in this thread standing up for him.

dont want to make enemies :x

Imagine if Big companies make advertisements the same way he does.

Wouldnt work as smoothly im sure.

Yeah, what amazes me is that some people think he's legit.

Also, not being funny....but what is AOBR?

We know it is short hand for Assault On Black Reach, but not everyone would.....

This guy is such an arse. My biggest problem is using stock pictures which categorically do not show the correct items for sale. If you have one to hand, grab a GW Model box. Have a look at the small print - Contents May Vary From Those Illustrated. This is a standard caveat on most retail packages, and I believe (might be wrong) it stems from laws about advertising and accuracy etc.

He is showing the picture of one thing, and selling another. This is not on.

After seeing the Ork auction, I'd have to say the guy's taking advantage of the uninitiated in 40k.

Relapse wrote: After seeing the Ork auction, I'd have to say the guy's taking advantage of the uninitiated in 40k.

Not being familiar with the AOBR box, the orks included are not the same as the Greed Tide box?

So he's comparing apples and oranges then, and selling the oranges with a picture of apples, the caveat being "You will receive everything in the second picture, note the first picture is for display purposes only..."

Reference only eh? Excellent reference, it pictures a different product.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Relapse wrote: After seeing the Ork auction, I'd have to say the guy's taking advantage of the uninitiated in 40k.

Not being familiar with the AOBR box, the orks included are not the same as the Greed Tide box?

So he's comparing apples and oranges then, and selling the oranges with a picture of apples, the caveat being "You will receive everything in the second picture, note the first picture is for display purposes only..."

Reference only eh? Excellent reference, it pictures a different product.

Green Tide is basically special deal of lots of ork boy kits ( multiposeable , weapon options ,accessories , )
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020014&prodId=prod1060163


AOBR is just generic 2 piece easy snap fit ones . the 2 Ork boys are completely different products ... hence why im
definately convinced hes a scam artist. Not just misunderstanding etc etc.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:My biggest problem is using stock pictures which categorically do not show the correct items for sale.

Yup, that one's dodgy.

Although, again, we're left merely making assumptions about his intentions. It's possible (if not as fun to bash anonymously on the internet) that he simply thought that the painted picture was close enough to give an idea of what he was selling.

If that were the case, he would legitimise it a little by pointing out that the actual models supplied are different from those pictured... and the fact he doesn't do so certainly doesn't make him look good. But there's always the chance that he's not actually deliberately trying to mislead people.

Some people just don't stop and put quite as much thought into what they're doing as they possibly should.

But the biggest problem this time isnt just the confusing wordings. He is actually promoting this sale as a product that isnt what he claims to be.

I know he'll attempt to get off the hook by stating
"but i pointed out its AOBR"

but not this time nice try , because he already tried to establish the 3 lies .
1) pic is wrong .
2) not green tide figure
3) because its not the same product, the savings he tried to claim to promote the sale = A LIE.

The saddest part is...

The person who bought that set could've easily afforded two sets of AOBR, and had not only what was sold to them (and then some), but also a full-on Space Marines Army as well.

I f*cking hate ebay. I absolutely do not support it whatsoever. Not because I get scammed, but because there are always people who do.

People supporting the 'technicality' side of the arguement probably indulge in the same sort of idea.

I was leaning to 'Shady' but that Orktion led me to ou-right scammery

Yup, that one's dodgy.

Although, again, we're left merely making assumptions about his intentions. It's possible (if not as fun to bash anonymously on the internet) that he simply thought that the painted picture was close enough to give an idea of what he was selling.

Chrysaor686 wrote:The person who bought that set could've easily afforded two sets of AOBR, and had not only what was sold to them (and then some), but also a full-on Space Marines Army as well.

You don't get 100 Orks in two AoBR sets...

Relapse wrote: It appears he knows well enough what it is he's selling.

Absolutely. I'm not saying that he's not aware that the picture and the actual item are different. Just that it's possible that rather than being a deliberate attempt to mislead people, he simply didn't think the difference was sufficient for it to be a problem. Which would still display a certain amount of poor judgement, particularly on eBay where people are very quick to jump on anything that looks even slightly suspicious.

Not endorsing it as a listing technique ( I don't use stock images even when it is the exact same product) ... just suggesting that it's sometimes worth giving people the benefit of the doubt... A lot of the perceived scams on eBay simply come down to the seller's inexperience in business practices.

Folks, its scam-like as its based on misrepresentation. When the only disclaimer is put into parenthesis () meaning that whatever is included there should be just extra clarification and now its telling you new facts about the model in question, that might tell you its a scam.


I would probably have missed the last sentenence stating that you won't be getting the assessory sprue. However, I probably would have sent the guy a question, asking specifically what is missing. Since he went into detail that the kit is on sprue and what parts can be built with the spru. He would have replied, read the last sentenence of my auction, then I would have thought him to be a jerk, and not bought the rhino.

Sure its got two things that tell you the model isn't complete, but the picture says one thing and the auction is something else. And the way that's its carefully worded lets you believe unless you read everything carefully that its complete as well.

This ebayer has all the charm and skill of a used car salesman. But with the ability to prey on dumb people such as ebay presents, well, if he had the volume to warrant it, I bet a class action suit could be levied on him. Most likely nothing will happen, and most of his buyers are savy enough to read everyline, or like me are naturally untrusting when my money is on the line, and are willing to ask a dumb question to protect their assets.

(Please note, I'm not sayings its a scam, just eluding to it. Just like the seller :p)

And folks, that is what SNAD is for...

I even sent him an Ebay PM regarding his sales practices and referenced trying to defend him on a forum, didn't mention a name though.

I'll post if he responds.

Chrysaor686 wrote:The saddest part is...

The person who bought that set could've easily afforded two sets of AOBR, and had not only what was sold to them (and then some), but also a full-on Space Marines Army as well.

I f*cking hate ebay. I absolutely do not support it whatsoever. Not because I get scammed, but because there are always people who do.

People supporting the 'technicality' side of the arguement probably indulge in the same sort of idea.

To clarify the contents of AoBR box.....

x1 mini rulebook
templates and set of dice
x1 dreadnought
x1 sqd of 5 terminators
x1 sqd of 10 tactical
x1 captain
x1 warboss
x2 sqds of 10 ork slugga boyz w/ big shoota
x1 sqd of 5 ork nobz
x3 ork deffcoptas

On ork green tide auction......

It looks like items were cut up sprue and "completeness" of squads may be in question.

When using ebay, go in informed. Know what you are bidding on and READ the description.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:I even sent him an Ebay PM regarding his sales practices and referenced trying to defend him on a forum, didn't mention a name though.

I'll post if he responds.

Could we see the msg you sent him?
Wow you sure have lots of tolerance for the seller's constant shady conducts,
no relations right ><?

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:

To clarify the contents of AoBR box.....

x1 mini rulebook
templates and set of dice
x1 dreadnought
x1 sqd of 5 terminators
x1 sqd of 10 tactical
x1 captain
x1 warboss
x2 sqds of 10 ork slugga boyz w/ big shoota
x1 sqd of 5 ork nobz
x3 ork deffcoptas

On ork green tide auction......

It looks like items were cut up sprue and "completeness" of squads may be in question.

When using ebay, go in informed. Know what you are bidding on and READ the description.

Im sure he meant 2 AOBR worth . As in if you count the ork boys worth as 1/5th total worth of the set.
Not the actual only 20 ork boys in the WHOLE aobr box.

My motto for EBay: If the seller. item and/or description seems wonky, go elsewhere.

It's a shame that we have EBay "Rules Lawyers" but both sides (Buyers and Sellers) often are vague or use double talk (or print) to sell things and bullying when buying. It's always been a fact of EBay. Learn the lesson and move on (rhetorical, not directed at anyone here). Yes, I've learned the hard way in the past as well.

Also note, the pic used includes Shootas and Rokkits, neither of which are part of the AoBR boxed set.....

Scam scam scam scam scam. He could only be more of a scam artist if he was a Politician running for election.

Sorry guys. Anyone who knows me or my Bartertown reputation knows how I feel about guys who are misleading in their dealings. I despise them.
I do have to say, though, that he never LIES and is not "slick as a used car salesman." In fact, though I believe he's "Definitely shady playing with words," it may not be intentional.
Note, the following text from his auction, which I'll break down:

You are bidding on a Brand NEW On Sprue Warhammer 40k Ork Army/Apocalypse Lot, consisting of 101 total Orks, including one Brand new Ork Warboss, 90 Brand new Ork Boyz, and 10 Brand new Ork Boys with Big Shootas. These models are all still on sprues. The best part is the Starting price is more than $100 cheaper than retail on Da Green Tide boxed set,

Everything here is plainly stated and, in NO WAY, playing word games. it's all factual, and there is NO ATTEMPT at subterfuge.

that's almost 60% off retail.

This is the dodgy part. As has been said, he's comparing apples and oranges. You can't say, "These oranges are a great deal because they're 60% of apple prices," and be legitimate.
It might not be MEANT as a misleading comment... but that's exactly what it is.

This is a perfect starting force for a new player, or an expansion force for any 40k Ork or Apocalypse Army. You will receive everything in the second picture, note the first picture is for display purposes only, the models you will receive are unbuilt and unpainted, coming from the AOBR boxed sets.

Again... Well said with no subterfuge. he spells out plainly where the models come from.

Granted, he abbreviated AOBR. Anyone who would buy this without looking up AOBR, if they don't know what it means, should NOT be buying online. You ALWAYS research what you don't know before commiting to spend money on it.

If the second part that I quoted said, "that's almost 60% cheaper than the Green Tide boxed set," I'd have no problem with this listing.

Eric

Alot of word play in there, allthough he goes back on himself alot .
also, it may be worth checking all of his auctions, chances are vehicle sprues are on there in a seperate lot

allthough, saying this, i only buy from project hydra through ebay
fast, cheap, and i get discount lol, i dont like trying out new sellers, as you can see, not all of them make life easy.

grrr like i said, the seller is a genius , his play on words is a work of art , almost like hypnotism. How he dances around the 60% discount , the pic , the title . so beautiful.


burn in hell scammer.

I have no trust in shady stuff now , the last shady sentence ( or lack of ) costed me $1000 USD

This was our conversation...

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:I tried defending you for 4 pages on an online forum for you rhino sales, but now with your 'Green Tide' Auction, its clear you are just trying to take advantage of new or inexperienced gamers. You use inappropriate pictures, of models you are not selling, and you also claim to save people money off of the Green Tide Box, but you are not even selling the Green Tide Models, you are selling snap-fit models, not the multi-part models and metal warboss that you get in the Green Tide.

Not very nice :(

His reply...

The Warhammer Man wrote:Dear joyous_oblivion,

I'm not sure who you are but thanks anyway. As you can see in my auctions which i have been consistently running for some time now i clearly state that the models come from (AOBR). And as far as the rhinos are concerned I list the exact sprues you get, as well as (this auction does not include the vehicle upgrade sprue). If anyone has questions i answer promptly and encourage this before bidding. I also offer a full refund to anyone unhappy with their purchase. I do everything i can to answer questions and leave everyone happy! Coupled with the pictures i display on all my auctions, i have literally had 4 problems out of over 600 transactions. I appreciate your concern about the green tide. But if you knew what the green tide was, you would know that all the green tide is, is an apocalypse choice in which you field 100 orks and 1 warboss. The fact that Games workshop has made a limited edition group of 100 multi-part orks and 1 metal warboss is great! Unfortunately if you have ever assembled 100 models you would realize that it is much more convenient and much less time consuming to use the (AOBR) orks (not to mention that it saves you a heap of money). Also perhaps you haven't considered the fact that if you are fielding a green tide, you no doubt are fielding hundreds and hundreds of models not just that one squad. As an experienced gamer that has been involved since first edition, and a very high level converter My main army of space marines uses all black reach tactical marines with heavily converted characters, sergeants, etc. Perhaps you do not like these models but there are plenty of other people and many happy customers of mine that prefer them. Thanks again for your comments I hope that you understand that although you may not like snap fit models, other people do! Also with the rhinos there are thousands of people with plenty of hatches and bits that don't need to pay extra for stuff they already have, so saving them a buck is worthwhile

- war_hammer_man

I replied with...

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:No I think you are missing the point of my comment. I realize the
benefit of snap fit models and I use some in my marine army
and my ork army. My problem is not that, it is your deliberate
misleading of
bidders. Technically what you do is ok but most people consider
it a very shady way to conduct sales (according to a very
popular warhemmer website). You've got a reputation as a
scammer and your listings don't do anything to help that image.

- joyous_oblivion

He then brought this beauty out...

The Warhammer Man wrote:Dear joyous_oblivion,

lol how can i have a reputation as a scammer with over 600 feedback and 2 negative?

- war_hammer_man

and my final reply...

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:Dear war_hammer_man,

Not sure, but you definitely do. And a 99.1% feedback rating isn't very good for an ebay seller, especially one with 500+ sales.

- joyous_oblivion

So hopefully some of you can shut up with the conspiracy crap now

Thanks JO , appreciate it, i had no extra intentions when i wanted to see the message he replied, it was pure curiosity to what he would say.

Ah i forgot to bring one basic thing up if he think the products are similar.

How is he going to be counting in all the extra choppa shoota bits along with the extra accessories if he think its the same :"P

and lastly, yep hes shaddy alright. I'll suggest every ebay user to sell small bits just to increase their feedback easily -_-

P.S you like zippos :"P

@JO: If he wanted to be honest, he'd limit his descriptions and pictures to what they actually are:

100 AoBR Orks + 1 AoBR Warboss.
Can be fielded as "Da Green Tide".

JohnHwangDD wrote:@JO: If he wanted to be honest, he'd limit his descriptions and pictures to what they actually are:

100 AoBR Orks + 1 AoBR Warboss.
Can be fielded as "Da Green Tide".

Straight to the point! well too bad we cant leave comments like this on his auction -_-;

also the seller using the "snap fit" as an attempt to justify their worth of " not having to spend lots of time on assembly"

is just pure fail. Next up, we need 2 piece snap fit land raiders. ( though i might like it >.> )

JohnHwangDD wrote:@JO: If he wanted to be honest, he'd limit his descriptions and pictures to what they actually are:

100 AoBR Orks + 1 AoBR Warboss.
Can be fielded as "Da Green Tide".

Why was that directed to me?

Because you're the one communicating with the SoB.

I've seen a "Green Tide" auction with snap fit models on ebay.co.uk, too. I was tempted, eventhough I already own 100 snap-fit boyz.

It's unfortunate that an Apocalypse Datasheet and a GW bundle deal share a name, but that's where the "misleadingness" ends. To me, a Green Tide means "100 Orks," not "10 boxes of multi-part Orks" so I don't see a problem.

lord_blackfang wrote:I've seen a "Green Tide" auction with snap fit models on ebay.co.uk, too. I was tempted, eventhough I already own 100 snap-fit boyz.

It's unfortunate that an Apocalypse Datasheet and a GW bundle deal share a name, but that's where the "misleadingness" ends. To me, a Green Tide means "100 Orks," not "10 boxes of multi-part Orks" so I don't see a problem.

Not sure why you'd think that. The Green Tide is a product sold by GW. It is pretty specific to what it is. GW lists the models you get, and shows pics of what models you get/can make; this guy does not. He shows a pictures of a completely different and inferior product, yet praises his own sale as the GW "Green Tide".

lord_blackfang wrote:I've seen a "Green Tide" auction with snap fit models on ebay.co.uk, too. I was tempted, eventhough I already own 100 snap-fit boyz.

It's unfortunate that an Apocalypse Datasheet and a GW bundle deal share a name, but that's where the "misleadingness" ends. To me, a Green Tide means "100 Orks," not "10 boxes of multi-part Orks" so I don't see a problem.

Tell that to the people that buys the actual set to find out there is no extra weapon option and accessory sprues in it.

Consider how they'll feel?

There are reasons why kits sells for more.

If i know where you live, i will go and dig you a poop hole . I will tell you to go poo there without comfort and privacy of a toilet.
Then i want you to tell me a hole to poo in is just a hole to poo in.

I am of the firm belief that anyone who bids on an auction without reading it deserves what he gets.

Brand new Ork Warboss, 90 Brand new Ork Boyz, and 10 Brand new Ork Boys with Big Shootas.

You will receive everything in the second picture, note the first picture is for display purposes only, the models you will receive are unbuilt and unpainted, coming from the AOBR boxed sets.

You'd have to be pretty thick to miss all that. It's not like it's hidden after the shipping info like in the Rhino auction.

EDIT: Or, to use Luna's analogy... if you don't look where you're going, don't blame the guy who dug the poop hole you just stepped in.

Main problem is NOT reading fine print for this ork thing.

Its for people that would be misguided into thinking the Green Horde uses AOBR ork boys.

Tell that to new players that had no ideas there is 2 types of ork boys snap fit / kit and wanted to save $60% off.

Its scam no matter how you want to put it blackfang, and thats wrong imo.

Just read JHDD's 1 sentence genius reply

and view over JO's message with him.

You'll see he is a scammer that have no intention of changing his ways.
And chooses to hide in the shade.

Thank you Lord Blackfang for basically taking us back to page 2 of this discussion.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Lets see the scammer's responses

First JO Confronts him about selling products different then what he adverticed.

Scammer tried to validate his sales by stating : 101 orks is 101 orks, which is what greentide is.
** does he talk about the missing weapons, missing accessories then? nope.

Then he tries to convince snap fit is actually a good thing .
** well maybe for him , but for hobbyists that likes to pose, convert , there is a huge difference

JO then tries to point out the shaddy parts.
Scammer proceeds to fall back on the " oh i have 600 feed back how can i be scammer"
** He used that excuse since when he was at 200 feed back, it means nothing.

A real legit seller will ALWAYS consider any suggestions brought up by customers especially ones with
clear valid points. Instead of falling back on excuses , or avoiding it altogether.

So hes not a full blown scammer with scams on every auction that will lead to his account ban nope.
But hes a petty scammer that takes advantage when he can.

Thats pretty pathetic in my book.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Warhammer-40k-Land-Raider-Redeemer-Crusader-Tank-Bits_W0QQitemZ290292817632QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item290292817632&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318


Another one. I loled -_- Touche for HIGHLIGHTING 1 Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer Tank

while listing only parts to build the main body, doesnt even have the las cannons needed to be called a land raider,
never mind being Redeemer or Crusader.

When can he get in his head, thats not a crusader or redeemer tank if it doesnt have the components.


3 negatives 2 neutral in last month .

Meh, I say we just gang rape his auctions by mass-reporting them as fradulent / IP violation listings.

First two were shady, latest one is a downright scam, it can't be a crusader/redeemer without sponsons.

Edit: I just realised this is the seller from the "State of the Ebay feedback system is terrible" thread! Haha, that Neutral feedback he got was Karma!

LunaHound wrote:http://cgi.ebay.com/Warhammer-40k-Land-Raider-Redeemer-Crusader-Tank-Bits_W0QQitemZ290292817632QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item290292817632&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318


Another one. I loled -_- Touche for HIGHLIGHTING 1 Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer Tank

while listing only parts to build the main body, doesnt even have the las cannons needed to be called a land raider,
never mind being Redeemer or Crusader.

The sad thing is I would buy this if I hadn't already built my Prometheus or if it had Lascannons so I could actually build my Helios.

Neil wrote:First two were shady, latest one is a downright scam, it can't be a crusader/redeemer without sponsons.

Edit: I just realised this is the seller from the "State of the Ebay feedback system is terrible" thread! Haha, that Neutral feedback he got was Karma!

link to thread o.o if possible please? thanks in advance!

LunaHound wrote:
link to thread o.o if possible please? thanks in advance!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/227555.page

Who says people are never heard and listened to?

Dakka I present the latest line of comms with our friendly* neighbourhood ebay seller, with a new plan apparently.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:Dear war_hammer_man,

I guess you never learn, and your poor business practice seems to work...

I have no idea why you listed this item as a Land Raider Redeemer/Crusader, when it is neither, it is not even a basic land raider.

List it properly as a Land Raider or even Land Raider, no weapons.

But I guess you can't do that as it might actually stop some of the idiots who bid on this from bidding.

Just so you know, you're name is becoming more and more known and I know a great deal of people who actively avoid your auctions now.

Try doing sales with some class...

- joyous_oblivion

Ok I was harsh, but I was getting fed up with his crap...

His reply out today...

The Warhammer Man wrote:Dear joyous_oblivion,

The reason this is listed as Land Raider Redeemer Crusader Tank Bits, is because thats where these tank bits came from, as you can see the rest of the guns, etc are listed separately. Thanks for the tip if you look at my new auctions i have removed all the pictures of the gw models and now only show my own photos of the actual sprues you will receive. I also have altered my rhino listings to make sure there is no doubt that the models you receive will not contain the upgrade sprue and as for the green tide i removed the bit about games workshops green tide and only use my pictures. so before you go pointing fingers again please educate yourself. as for this listing it was already posted. It was never my intention to mislead anyone. sometimes you just need an outsiders point of view. I do appreciate your input and hope these changes show my intentions to you and these other people you speak of.

- war_hammer_man

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:Dear war_hammer_man,

Excellent work sir, most excellent. I have a great deal of respect for people who can look at themselves, find fault and change it. A lot of people never change their ways. I hope you just aren't changing due to your recent negative feedback, but if thats what it takes, I'm glad you changed your ways. And I will be postign what you sent me on a couple forums so that hopefully people can cut you some slack.

Thanks

- joyous_oblivion

Well we shall see if he holds true to this slightly better practices now...

Good to see he is changing his ways. kudos to you sir!

And his final reply, which made me smile...

the warhammer man wrote:Dear joyous_oblivion,

Sometimes you have to take a step back and look at things from other peoples perspectives to realize fault. I realize that if you are a new player trying to save some money buying online that without adequate knowledge of the products that you could easily be disappointed. I have made steps to change this as the last thing i want to do is turn anyone away from the hobby. Again thanks for the imput

- war_hammer_man

Hope he means it, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until I see otherwise.

The guy sounds like a sociopath. His auctions are clearly misleading. I like how he includes a GW photograph and states "photograph just for reference" (or something like that). Reference for what--so you know what you are not getting. Selling all those AOBR "still on the sprue!!!" as if they were the green tide is an attempt to con people.

Olympia, please read the whole thread before commenting.

As Ozymandius said in response to Lord Blackfang, you are just trying to drag this thread back into the muck of page 2.