6251
Post by: NecronLord3
From: http://www.cargad.com/
SPANISH:
Gracias a un pajarito, os damos un montón de noticias MUY FIABLES sobre qué lanzará Games Workshop durante 2.009. Obviamente, seguro lo que se dice seguro no hay nada, pero es bastante seguro 
* Marzo: la Guerra del Anillo. Un suplemento para que SdA sea un juego de batallas y no de escaramuzas. Venderán incluso unas peanas de plástico para “adaptar” o “poner en filas” las minis de El Señor de los Anillos.
* Abril: viene la Guardia Imperial. Pocas miniaturas nuevas, pero habrá algo (y grande).
* Mayo: Fantasy, segunda oleada de miniaturas del Imperio. Al ya conocido Tanque a Vapor se le unen (por fin) los Grandes Espaderos de plástico. Veremos también el nuevo Altar de Guerra.
* Julio: Warhammer 40.000 Planet Strike. Un suplemento para asaltos planetarios. La escenografía dicen que es la mejor que se ha visto nunca.
* Agosto: Elfos para SDA.
* Setiembre: ¿Os acordáis de que os dijimos que para 2.009 se iba a reeditar un clásico? Pues ya podemos decir que se trata de SPACE HULK. Con nuevas miniaturas (impresionantes) entre otras de Exterminadores y Genestealers. Sin duda, el bombazo de 2.009 (y ahora a esperar que también reediten Heroquest). Ah, nos han dicho que puede que el precio sea alto, así que comprar en Inglaterra se vuelve imprescindible.
* Octubre: Es posible (pero está sin confirmar) que de Warhammer Fantasy veamos a los Skavens.
* En Noviembre es altamente probable que veamos el códex de cierto capítulo de Marines, pero aún no está confirmado.
Y ahora, unas noticias breves:
* Para el 2.010, parece casi seguro que habrá nuevo códex de Tiránidos y Angeles Sangrientos (aprovechando el tirón de Space Hulk), y se dice que Necrones o (atención) Tau.
* De Fantasy el primer ejército que veremos será el de Khemri. Sin noticias de las Bestias del Caos.
* Hay una buena noticia y una mala noticia para los fans de los Eldar Oscuros. La buena es que el proyecto está acabado, libro y miniaturas. La mala es que por baja popularidad del códex, se ha descartado su lanzamiento.
* Un rumor que había aparecido sobre que Games Workshop podía “dejar de lado” los libros impresos y pasar a dar los PDF gratis (como ya hacía en Japón) está desmentido.
Eso es todo. Damos las gracias a quien nos ha soplado las noticias (que seguirá en el anonimato).
ENGLISH:
Thanks to a small bird, we give a pile you of the VERY TRUSTWORTHY news exceeds what Games Workshop will send during 2.009. Obvious, surely what it is said safe is nothing, but he is quite safe *
March: the War of Anillo. I supplement so that SdA is a game of battles and not of skirmishes. They will even sell plastic pedestals for “adapting” or “putting in rows” minis of the Gentleman of the Ring. *
April: the Imperial Guard comes. Few new miniatures, but will be something (and great). *
May: Fantasy, second big wave of miniatures of the Empire. To already known Tank Steam they are united (finally) Great the Espaderos to him of plastic. We will also see the new Altar military. *
Julio: Warhammer 40,000 Planet Strike. I supplement for planetary assaults. The stage scene says that it is the best one than it has never been seen.
* August: Elfos for SDA.
* September: You remember that we said to you that for 2,009 was going away to reedit a classic one? Then already we can say that one is SPACE HULK. With new miniatures (impressive) among others of Exterminadores and Genestealers. Without a doubt, the explosion of 2,009 (and now to hope that also they reedit Heroquest). Ah, has said to us that perhaps the price is high, so to buy in England it becomes essential.
* October: It is possible (but it is without confirming) that of Warhammer Fantasy we see the Skavens.
* In November it is highly probable that we see códex of certain chapter of Marin, but not yet is confirmed. And now, the brief news:
* For the 2,010, it almost seems certainly there will be new códex of Tiránidos and Bloody Angeles (taking advantage of the pull of Space Hulk), and says that Necrones or (attention) Tau.
* Of Fantasy the first army that we will see will be the one of Khemri. Without the news of the Beasts of the Chaos.
* There is the good news and the bad news for fans of the Eldar Dark. The good one is that the project is finished, book and miniatures. The bad one is that by low popularity of códex, its launching has discarded.
* A rumor that had appeared envelope that Games Workshop could “leave of side” printed books and to happen to give the pdf free (since already it did in Japan) is denied. That is everything. We give thanks to who has blown the news to us (that she will follow in the anonymity).
Thanks to Bablefish for the translation: http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt
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Post by: Mahu
So "we have the codex and minatures done, and invested all this time and effort into it, but it won't be popular so we are not going to release it".
I doubt it.
459
Post by: Hellfury
It was postulated year or so ago that space hulk was going to be redone somehow. I recall a huge thread in the warseer rumours that hinted at it.
At the end of march 2007, I asked Detris vie PM on Warseer the following question:
Hopefully this rumour will pan out to be true.
But since the same source said that the dark eldar are discarded, I somehow doubt the veracity of the rest of the rumours. There is no way they are going to spend that much man hours developing something to say "nah, nevermind".
[edit to add image as verifiable truth of what was said]
6946
Post by: Dexy
I want to play Gentleman of the Ring. Is this some kind of posh boxing minitures game?
5093
Post by: Shibboleth02
Are you really thanking Babelfish for the translation, or were you being sarcastic? Because that's a pretty crap translation job. Yes, we can understand (kind of) what its talking about, but seriously, that's awkward english, at best.
4588
Post by: Destrado
Maybe it was poorly phrased, and the release was put on hold. Don't know, doesn't make much sense if Jes has been working on them for this long.
Space Hulk sounds fantastic, though!
6251
Post by: NecronLord3
Hellfury wrote:
But since the same source said that the dark eldar are discarded, I somehow doubt the veracity of the rest of the rumours. There is no way they are going to spend that much man hours developing something to say "nah, nevermind".
I don't think it is that far fetched at all. Considering that the leaked images of the new Homunculi were said to just be 'test' pieces and were not going to go into production. GW does often try different things and depending on the logistics of the project it goes forward or is shelved. I think a better translation of "disguarded" could easily have been shelved. Considering that the Dark Eldar have sold so poorly that they refuse to carry their product in any of their company stores, GW probably felt that the market for the Dark Eldar should at least be better if they are going to push for a new release of them. Perhaps when the Economy is better, or GW can find a way to tie the Dark Eldar into a major release. Personally, I would at least put the new book out and repackage some older models and give the dedicated Dark Eldar something, while at the same time testing the waters for a DE rerelease. Perhaps release new DE models, slowly over a couple of years with the Collectors range, instead of dedicating major resources to a risky DE release that could fail and damage the entire brand.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
So, if we clean it up a bit...
Mar: LotR War of Ring mass battle with new movement trays
Apr: 40k Imperial Guard comes. (yay!)
May: WFB Empire Wave 2 with Steam Tank and War Altar
Jul: 40k PlanetStrike!
Aug: LotR Elfs
Sep: Space Hulk w/ new Termies & Genestealers, possible hope for Heroquest?
Oct: WFB Skaven?
Nov: 40k SM of some sort?
2010
* 40k is Tyranids & Blood Angels, with either Necrons or Tau.
* Fantasy gets Khemri. No word on Beasts of Chaos.
* Dark Eldar project is finished, book and miniatures, but low popularity of means no release.
* GW won't move to free PDF rules
Mar is Apoc Stompa & Shadowsword, so the Q1 rumors are messed up.
Mar/Apr LotR seems to have sold well enough to move from single-model skirmish to mass battle of units a la 40k2, necessitating "round peg-square hole" multi-bases. One hopes third time's the charm and the transition goes well.
April/May sees new IG, as expected and previously confirmed. Got my budget all set for those Valks! 
May/June brings out the plastic Steam Tank, which is going to save GW a ton of money on materials - the Steam Tank is easily the biggest pile of metal that GW still sells. The Walter is nice, too.
July brings Planetstrike as the big thing for the Summer - awesome extra use for the Valks!
Aug is more LotR. Meh.
Sep bringing back Space Hulk is simply awesome. I will buy the Termie models if reasonably priced. Let's hope this heralds a new 40k5+ Skirmish engine to replace the 40k2-based stuff, allowing for Gork, Necro, Kill Team, etc.
Nov being SM of some sort is probably Woofs, which are still on their 3E Codex and desperately in need of a rules update. Plus, GW can recut the bitz and sell out.
2010 Nids & Blood Angels are good, and I wonder what the BA bitz sprue will be, along with timing.
I assume Necrons get the nod, as they've got much more rules problems that need fixing.
I'm surprised GW claims DE are ready for relaunch, but chooses not to. That's competely bizarre. But very Squattish.
And of *course* GW isn't getting out of the printing business. Their pulp fiction literally prints money, and the glossy pictures are what sells the models.
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Post by: Grubsnik
Well, the translation is fairly...idiosyncratic...to say the least, so god alone (or anyone who speaks Spanish) knows what it meant to say.
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Post by: Hellfury
NecronLord3 wrote:Hellfury wrote:
But since the same source said that the dark eldar are discarded, I somehow doubt the veracity of the rest of the rumours. There is no way they are going to spend that much man hours developing something to say "nah, nevermind".
I don't think it is that far fetched at all.
Your frikking kidding me right?
GW spends X amount of dollars writing a codex, sculpting models, taking photos and every other thing that they do in order to release an army, and then suddenly they come to the conclusion that "it wont sell" out of the blue?
nah dude, thats effing slowed.
[edit] as has been said before, GW can be dumb at times, but they most certainly aren't stupid.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Yeah, I'm pretty suspect about the whole Dark Eldar thing, too. I can't believe that both the book and the miniatures are done, but they're not going to release anything. That sounds pretty bogus to me....either that or they reviewed the work they did and decided that it didn't mark a noticeable change in how crap the DE model line and fluff already are and so decided to hold off (though with Jes Goodwin in charge of the models for it I can't believe they'd be that bad. I don't think I've ever seen a Jes Goodwin model I didn't like.)
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Post by: gorgon
There was a rumor going around that they finished at least one draft of the DE codex, but that Rick Priestley didn't think it was up to snuff, so he sent it back to the designers for a rewrite. I have a feeling that's what was lost in translation (either in the actual translation or by the original poster).
Regarding Necrons, at least one usually-in-the-know poster (Harry) on Warseer is saying that they haven't started them yet...as in not even a single concept sketch. Methinks they'll be late 2010 or more likely 2011.
Also, SWs seem almost confirmed for 2009, and Harry's also been alluding to a mystery codex in 2009 that's not DE. Seems like it has to be either Tyranids or Tau.
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Post by: Destrado
Grubsnik wrote:Well, the translation is fairly...idiosyncratic...to say the least, so god alone (or anyone who speaks Spanish) knows what it meant to say.
It says what it says. The release date has been discarded. Most likely they're thinking of another release date - it could've been pulled back. I doubt the project was cancelled.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Perhaps GW saw my post on the 40k6 boxed set and will follow up on my suggested armies: IG vs DE?
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Post by: ubermosher
JohnHwangDD wrote:
July brings Planetstrike as the big thing for the Summer - awesome extra use for the Valks!
With the huge caveat of assuming the rumors are true, I'm wondering if plastic IG stormtroopers will be part of a Planetstrike release, since they didn't appear on the list of first week IG releases.
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Post by: GoFenris
Grubsnik wrote:Well, the translation is fairly...idiosyncratic...to say the least, so god alone (or anyone who speaks Spanish) knows what it meant to say.
You beat me to it! Until someone that understands the language and it's subtleties, it's still somewhat speculation. On a lighter note...  SPACE HULK!!! Ahhhh Yeah!!!!
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Post by: Defiler
That's extremely unlikely.
Jess Goodwin himself has stated via podcast (as of 2-3 months ago) that he was halfway through the plastics process, and it's been whispered that the book has been done for a while now - redone because of a Jervis veto.
Multiple others - Brimstone, Harry, Dakka's own Yakface and so forth have claimed to have seen new models - which I believe - and I can't believe for a second they would go through the whole process of finishing the line and not releasing them.
Delays I can understand. The company puts out guaranteed profitable releases in the near future during our economy woes - like Guard, Nids, Space Wolves, but I was getting the picture GWS doesn't do things like create whole lines and then fail to release them. They've learned from past mistakes.
So my unprofessional final verdict - I don't buy it at all. I'm certain Dark Eldar is still coming, just the time is unknown.
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Post by: ArbitorIan
I'm playing Bloody Angels...
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Post by: 99MDeery
What about Planetstrike to get people involved in the DE, for an army that is based around raiding and hit and run tactics would it not be perfect to tie it in to that release, or is that just wishful thinking on my part?
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Post by: NecronLord3
I think GW would be smart to release more boxed sets like the Assault on Black Reach box. That set contains an awesome set of starting miniatures for players to begin with or supplement an existing army. Releasing the DE Vs. another army would IMO, go along way toward making the DE more profitable for GW. If it were up to me, I would try to put at least one of these out each year.
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Post by: Hellfury
gorgon wrote:There was a rumor going around that they finished at least one draft of the DE codex, but that Rick Priestley didn't think it was up to snuff, so he sent it back to the designers for a rewrite. I have a feeling that's what was lost in translation (either in the actual translation or by the original poster).
Thats far more likely a reason to 'table' the army for awhile as opposed to "it wont sell".
GW already stated quite firmly that if an army has a codex, it will always have a codex.
It simply makes no business sense whatsoever to even a laymen to spend money on development, and not at least offer the product to the public to try and recoup the cost of production and development.
Besides, everyone jumps on the new army bandwagon every release, so GW are quite aware of the compulsory collecting habits of their consumers.
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Post by: redstripe
JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm surprised GW claims DE are ready for relaunch, but chooses not to. That's competely bizarre. But very Squattish.
Are we sure that John isn't the source of these rumors?
EDIT: Love the Rimmer avatar, Hellfury.
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Post by: NecronLord3
Hellfury wrote:
Your frikking kidding me right...
You obviously have ZERO background in marketing. It is not uncommon and usually quite beneficial for a company to spend money on a project, realize that it will not be profitable(for what ever reason) and cut your loses rather than moving forward with a project that could cost your company even more money.
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
Are the tiles for Space Hulk being made into 3D plastic? Please say yes .
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Post by: GoFenris
Defiler wrote:That's extremely unlikely.
Jess Goodwin himself has stated via podcast (as of 2-3 months ago) that he was halfway through the plastics process, and it's been whispered that the book has been done for a while now - redone because of a Jervis veto.
Multiple others - Brimstone, Harry, Dakka's own Yakface and so forth have claimed to have seen new models - which I believe - and I can't believe for a second they would go through the whole process of finishing the line and not releasing them.
Delays I can understand. The company puts out guaranteed profitable releases in the near future during our economy woes - like Guard, Nids, Space Wolves, but I was getting the picture GWS doesn't do things like create whole lines and then fail to release them. They've learned from past mistakes.
So my unprofessional final verdict - I don't buy it at all. I'm certain Dark Eldar is still coming, just the time is unknown.
99MDeery wrote:What about Planetstrike to get people involved in the DE, for an army that is based around raiding and hit and run tactics would it not be perfect to tie it in to that release, or is that just wishful thinking on my part?
Hellfury wrote:gorgon wrote:There was a rumor going around that they finished at least one draft of the DE codex, but that Rick Priestley didn't think it was up to snuff, so he sent it back to the designers for a rewrite. I have a feeling that's what was lost in translation (either in the actual translation or by the original poster).
Thats far more likely a reason to 'table' the army for awhile as opposed to "it wont sell". GW already stated quite firmly that if an army has a codex, it will always have a codex. It simply makes no business sense whatsoever to even a laymen to spend money on development, and not at least offer the product to the public to try and recoup the cost of production and development. Besides, everyone jumps on the new army bandwagon every release, so GW are quite aware of the compulsory collecting habits of their consumers.
All valid points! I really like the Planetstrike idea and I hate to admit this but I actually agree with Hellfury too. 
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Post by: Hellfury
GoFenris wrote:I hate to admit this but I actually agree with Hellfury too.
Thanks Stelek.
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Post by: Hellfury
NecronLord3 wrote:
Hellfury wrote:
Your frikking kidding me right...
You obviously have ZERO background in marketing. It is not uncommon and usually quite beneficial for a company to spend money on a project, realize that it will not be profitable(for what ever reason) and cut your loses rather than moving forward with a project that could cost your company even more money.
You are obviously TROLLING.
Not that I disagree that it is common for a company to stop a project, but try deductive reasoning for one moment.
1)various developers have been quoted as to whats going on in vague terms for the DE.
2) GW isn't the sort of company to throw away money, and then refuse to make money, on even a horrible product. (metal chaos possessed is one very good example)
thus while DE may be on the back burner longer than expected, I seriously suspect all of this hoopla is based on:
1) bad translation of the original poster
2) if the translation is correct, then the poster is misinformed.
I think we will just have to agree to disagree.
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Post by: warpcrafter
EXTERMINADORES!
And on a lighter note, the reason that the Dark Eldar don't sell well is because the minis' suck! If the new ones are better, and they get a new Codex, they will probably perk right up.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Isn't this how the spanish american war got started?
I doubt they'll just scrap DE. They're already to prevalent in the fluff and feature much to prominently in the rulebook. It's not a squat thing where they can just roll over additions and leave an army behind, this would be a case of full representation but a missing army.
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Post by: His Master's Voice
NecronLord3 wrote:
Hellfury wrote:
Your frikking kidding me right...
You obviously have ZERO background in marketing.
What does that have to do with marketing? Besides, if they can sell Stompas, they can sell a new (in effect) army that generates a lot of hype. If they're pulling a finished prject from launching they're in a pretty bad shape.
I sure hope the source got that wrong and everything else right. Especially the Hulk part. I recall GW had an idea to replace the old hourglass with a heartbeat timer - the less time you have the faster it beats. Pure win.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
ubermosher wrote:I'm wondering if plastic IG stormtroopers will be part of a Planetstrike release
That would make a lot of sense and help to extend the initial IG release window. I sure hope so! I'm really kind of hoping for those sexy Eldar sport Jetbikes.  ____ Defiler wrote:Jess Goodwin himself has stated via podcast (as of 2-3 months ago) that he was halfway through the plastics process, and it's been whispered that the book has been done for a while now - redone because of a Jervis veto.
I can't believe for a second they would go through the whole process of finishing the line and not releasing them.
I'm certain Dark Eldar is still coming, just the time is unknown.
I believe the book redo has been stated previously, and Jes' comments were the first public admission that any official work was being done on them in quite some time. I can - if the line and book aren't up to snuff, it's better to deal with other, hotter releases. Like Planetstrike, which was rumored for 2008 and appears to have been pushed to 2009. There's definitely a pecking order that changes, and Apoc seems to have moved up past Planetstrike, which bumps Dark Eldar. One word: "Demiurg". ____ NecronLord3 wrote:I think GW would be smart to release more boxed sets like the Assault on Black Reach box.
Releasing the DE Vs. another army would IMO, go along way toward making the DE more profitable for GW. If it were up to me, I would try to put at least one of these out each year.
I don't think GW can afford to do multiple AoBR sets per edition, as they don't make any money on them compared to other sets. Though I really would like to see an all- GEQ starter set. ____ Hellfury wrote:GW already stated quite firmly that if an army has a codex, it will always have a codex.
It simply makes no business sense whatsoever to even a laymen to spend money on development, and not at least offer the product to the public to try and recoup the cost of production and development.
Besides, everyone jumps on the new army bandwagon every release,
DE would always have their 3E Codex... It does, if other product would recoup costs faster. Dark Eldar was *the* new army for 3E. ____ redstripe wrote:Are we sure that John isn't the source of these rumors?
Quite. ____ AgeOfEgos wrote:Are the tiles for Space Hulk being made into 3D plastic? Please say yes .
After the Warhammer Mighty Empire tiles, I'd say yes.  ____ His Master's Voice wrote:if they can sell Stompas, they can sell a new (in effect) army that generates a lot of hype.
The difference is that Stompas are all-new, without any negative history or baggage.
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Post by: Mattlov
Why would GW bring back Heroquest when they didn't produce it? That was MB, licensed out. I don't think GW can touch it.
I could believe Warhammer Quest more than Heroquest.
And a new Space Hulk is great!
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Post by: gorgon
One of the four "P"s of marketing is Product.
It's definitely possible that they put DE on ice. It does happen. But in this case I think it's more likely that they're still on the docket.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
Actually the Land Raider got shelfed for quite some time before the deemed the time fit for a release.
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Post by: Nofasse 'Eadhunta
I hope Tau gets some Walkers, those would be sweet.
I like Walkers.
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Post by: Hellfury
Hellfury wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:GW already stated quite firmly that if an army has a codex, it will always have a codex.
DE would always have their 3E Codex...
Yeah, it was predictable for someone to make that remark.
Hellfury wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:It simply makes no business sense whatsoever to even a laymen to spend money on development, and not at least offer the product to the public to try and recoup the cost of production and development.
It does, if other product would recoup costs faster.
I am not talking about another product taking its place, which is always possible. I am talking about simple deletion of development already done on a product most of us realize will sell.
Hellfury wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:Besides, everyone jumps on the new army bandwagon every release,
Dark Eldar was *the* new army for 3E.
John, you're clearly just being contrary for the sake of it.
You can't tell me with a straight face that if GW were to release 3 new plastic kits for DE tomorrow, that there wouldn't suddenly be tons of new DE players. And thats without even mentioning a codex.
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Post by: Shibboleth02
JohnHwangDD wrote:Nov being SM of some sort is probably Wolfs, which are still on their 3E Codex and desperately in need of a rules update. Plus, GW can recut the bitz and sell out.
I know for a fact that the Space Wolves are not getting a recut of their old bits. Rather, they are getting an all new chapter upgrade sprue (much like Black Templars or Dark Angels). It will feature tons of wolf bits, backpacks, and a unique wolf terminator body, as well.
Grubsnik wrote:Well, the translation is fairly...idiosyncratic...to say the least, so god alone (or anyone who speaks Spanish) knows what it meant to say.
Yup, the Almighty and roughly 330 to 350 million other people.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
@Hellfury:
GW never promised that they'd update Codices (e.g. Spaz Marinz HURR!), only that they wouldn't withdraw them from legal play (e.g. LatD, Kroot Mercs). There is a *big* difference between those two extremes, and the DE are doing an outstanding job of illustrating it.
Development is a sunk cost. The only question is whether it makes sense for GW to throw more money at release production and give DE the release window, or to push something else into production and give *that* the release window. Developed product gets flushed down the toilet all the time because sometimes it just costs too much to move into production. If you check the automotive industry, you're going to see a *lot* of this happening over the next couple years, as multi-million dollar (actually, multi-BILLION dollar) projects that were started a couple years ago simply get the axe due to the soft economy. Hell, when you see a few nameplates disappear (e.g. Saturn, Hummer) in the next 2 or 3 years, that's *really* going to drive home the point about sunk costs.
Anyhow, if the DE work is done for 5E, then that work is usable for the next 3+ years, possibly then next 8 years if 6E doesn't change too radically from 5E. So we could see the DE pop up again, assuming that GW is desperate to monetize the DE development effort that they're sitting on. But as I initially noted, the whole thing doesn't make too much sense. It would have made more sense to scrap the DE project before engaging Jes, and focus on Apoc instead, rather than pushing DE to completion and then stopping.
If GW were to release 3 new DE kits right now, what would they be? They won't be Warriors, Raiders, or Jetbikes, as they're already plastic and those molds aren't yet paid for. So let's assume Wyches (because they can be Troops), Ravager (requiring a single sprue), and a plastic Archon (for completeness). OK, it's a nice "Wave 2" release, but you say there won't be a Codex? I think it falls flat, because players would still have to special order the models (and Codex), as GW doesn't stock DE in their stores. But really, your scenario doesn't make sense. Without a *major* push tied to a full Codex release, it simply doesn't make sense to release DE models.
Quite frankly, the only way to release DE "properly" is to tie it to the starter box of a new edition.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
LittleLeadMen wrote:I know for a fact that the Space Wolves are not getting a recut of their old bits. Rather, they are getting an all new chapter upgrade sprue (much like Black Templars or Dark Angels). It will feature tons of wolf bits, backpacks, and a unique wolf terminator body, as well.
So it's an expansion of the existing bitz sprue to be more like the BT sprue? Cool, even better!
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Dexy wrote:I want to play Gentleman of the Ring. Is this some kind of posh boxing minitures game?
I hope so. Better that than Gentlemen of the Ringpiece.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
Rumoured 2010 release for revised Tau would pretty much fit the previous pattern of releasing Tau codexes half-way through the life cycle.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Part of me welcomes a re-issue of Space Hulk since it is such a good game.
Another part of me worries they will change the entire game and either screw up the rules or invalidate my entire three set collection by making new size corridors and termies.
OTOH, there's a good chance they would make one piece Termies on 25mm bases to stop people using them in 40K for cheap.
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Post by: George Spiggott
Woot!!!!! Space Hulk, I hope it's the first edition re-released not the second.
It looks like Dark Eldar are being delayed at this point rather than dropped. Dark Eldar for 2011? Someone should run a book on this.
@ Killkrazy: You can still use the new models with your old rulebook. I'll probably base mine on Bevelled bases regardless.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
More likely Space Hulk will be the second edition.
(I have two first edition boxes and a Deathwing box.)
Some of the optional rules were good. The rest (psionics etc.) were rubbish intended to sell more models.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Kilkrazy wrote:More likely Space Hulk will be the second edition.
(I have two first edition boxes and a Deathwing box.)
Some of the optional rules were good. The rest (psionics etc.) were rubbish intended to sell more models.
Most likely it's a completely new edition.
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Post by: George Spiggott
With Talisman they went back to the best edition rather than the last if they do that with Space Hulk they'll re-release first edition.
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Post by: BloodofOrks
Please oh please let their be a Tau make over on the horizon.
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Post by: Alpharius
Platuan4th wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:More likely Space Hulk will be the second edition.
(I have two first edition boxes and a Deathwing box.)
Some of the optional rules were good. The rest (psionics etc.) were rubbish intended to sell more models.
Most likely it's a completely new edition.
Please let this be true!
Of course, please let it be a "best of all possible editions" edition.
Please?
Has anyone heard anything from any of the big rumor sources on this yet?
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Post by: Archonate
JohnHwangDD wrote:@Hellfury:
If GW were to release 3 new DE kits right now, what would they be? They won't be Warriors, Raiders, or Jetbikes, as they're already plastic and those molds aren't yet paid for. So let's assume Wyches (because they can be Troops), Ravager (requiring a single sprue), and a plastic Archon (for completeness). OK, it's a nice "Wave 2" release, but you say there won't be a Codex? I think it falls flat, because players would still have to special order the models (and Codex), as GW doesn't stock DE in their stores. But really, your scenario doesn't make sense. Without a *major* push tied to a full Codex release, it simply doesn't make sense to release DE models.
What they would be and whether or not it would make sense for GW to do is nowhere within the vicinity of the point he was making. Of course it doesn't make sense. Of course it won't happen. What the models would be is irrelevant. The point is if 3 different new DE models boxes were on shelves tomorrow, there would be tons of new DE players... Hell, I bet if the only thing they released was new warriors, we'd still see a massive boom in new DE players. And that's without mention of a new codex...
Quite frankly, the only way to release DE "properly" is to tie it to the starter box of a new edition.
Fair to say. But I think releasing them with a supplement like Planetstrike would be no less effective. Personally, I think it would be naive of GW to think that DE wouldn't be able to stand alone upon release. Just print some new artwork in White Dwarf and pass around pics of the new minis. Get people salivating over them for a few months first.
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Post by: Moopy
"Gentlemen of the Ring" HA HA!!
2010 my BA will get the real deal. About time.
I don't buy that DE got a ton of stuff and it's just going to sit on the shelf. That would have been shut down long before the models were made.
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Post by: Leggy
Well I for one am up for a raid on this secret warehouse thats stocked to the rafters with New Dark Eldar models and Codecies. Who's with me!
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Post by: Hordini
JohnHwangDD wrote:Quite frankly, the only way to release DE "properly" is to tie it to the starter box of a new edition.
Wait, wait. Why wouldn't some decent marketing tied with the release of a new codex and new, good models not be a way to release DE "properly"?
Personally, I'm sort of getting a little excited about the possibility of a DE release, even if it ends up being delayed for a couple years. As long as it ends up being sweet, I'm cool. I know, that is setting the bar kind of high though.
But really, a poor track record with DE in the past is no reason they can't do very well in the future, as long as they fix the problems that they had (crappy models, crappy codex) and market them well before, during, and after their release. And army, even and army like DE, with good models and good codex is a whole different animal really. Plus, once they get a new release, I'm sure GW stores will start carrying them again, and the special order only crap will be a thing of the past.
Das Wort:
Das Niveau
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Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
It will be interesting to see how they adjust to the upsizing of the bases of terminators in a new space hulk.
I know I'd like to use termies from the SM boxes in larger SH games.
Also plastic tiles would be very nice to have.
Also empire getting a 3rd wave (they had a whole pile f minis released 1-2 years ago, hellblaster, fanatics etc)...
I'd like to see the O&G get some 2nd wave lovin in WHFB, some of the models are really starting to struggle.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Archonate wrote:Hell, I bet if the only thing they released was new warriors, we'd still see a massive boom in new DE players. And that's without mention of a new codex...
Why do you and Hellfury think this? What's changed since the last time DE were on the shelves with a full line of models along with being the featured army in the starter set? Is just pent-up demand from not being on the shelves? Help explain, please.
Archonate wrote:But I think releasing them with a supplement like Planetstrike would be no less effective. Personally, I think it would be naive of GW to think that DE wouldn't be able to stand alone upon release. Just print some new artwork in White Dwarf and pass around pics of the new minis. Get people salivating over them for a few months first.
If GW felt this way, they wouldn't have cancelled / delayed the DE release.
That's why I'm suggesting a starter re-release. Starters capture new players who don't have any experience with DE, so they aren't going to think "oh, Emo Elves again..." and then walk away.
____
Hordini wrote:Why wouldn't some decent marketing tied with the release of a new codex and new, good models not be a way to release DE "properly"?
DE already has some very well-entrenched impressions within the 40k community that would need to be redone if DE are to sell in any kind of numbers. It's not like Tau coming in with a clean sheet to make first impressions. It's first needing to reset impressions and then to make new impressions. Changing people's first impressions is *much* harder than making brand new impressions.
Hordini wrote:But really, a poor track record with DE in the past is no reason they can't do very well in the future, as long as they fix the problems that they had (crappy models, crappy codex) and market them well before, during, and after their release. Plus, once they get a new release, I'm sure GW stores will start carrying them again, and the special order only crap will be a thing of the past.
The difference is that it probably would costs GW 3 times the effort to remarket DE compared to something new, which itself is probaby 3 times the effort of something well-established and iconic like Guard / SM / Eldar. Turning the crank is easy, makes money, so what's GW going to do?
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Post by: anticitizen013
I dont play Dark Eldar, but I would certainly like to see them released in the future (this year would be nice, but wishful thinking). As mentioned, they are still on their 3E codex and desperately need some love. I also agree that there are other races that need fixing, but DE have nothing going for them with the release of all the new books, like SM and Orkz.
I think with GWs clever marketing schemes and ability to build hype around something, getting some more rumours floating around with some definitive answers as to what's going to be included in the DE list and finally some pictures of new models (as well as artwork), they would definitely be able to offload all the DE they need when theyre released.
I'm overjoyed to hear about Space Hulk though... Specialist Games are awesome
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Post by: Nofasse 'Eadhunta
BloodofOrks wrote:Please oh please let their be a Tau make over on the horizon.
With Walkers.
Did I mention I like Walkers?
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Post by: Destrado
Dark Eldar Warriors would be welcome. There's a decently sized community that buys outside it's selected armies in order to put something different on the painting table. I believe we've all done this, and a reasonably priced box (same tag as orks, as it now seems to be the norm) would surely catch a player's eye. Be it for bits and whatnots.
But saying that DE are doomed on the sole reason of them being DE is something I don't quite get - if anything at all (I know this is old) they'd perform as well or better than the Wood Elves.
Also, comparing a "scrapped" project like this to a scrapped project in the auto industry is comparing apples and oranges.
Firstly, if the kits are done, or at least the greens, all they need is money to further the investment into the plastic molds - I can understand that they might need to finance this, thus they could bring out (for example) Space Wolves first in order to feel economically secure.
Their uncertainty might be based on the fact that they don't know for sure what costumer base the DE might appeal to, thus they aren't so certain it'll generate the expected income in x time.
But I sincerely doubt that if they did not want to release the DE they'd wait after their chief sculptor finished his work and appareantly undergoing a revision of a "finished" book (the one Jervis is said to have turned down) to consider it. It doesn't make any sense and GW isn't in a position where it can afford this.
And as said before, the translation is literal. The word descarded doesn't have a different meaning, in portuguese or spanish, so without further explanation of what it meant it stays as stated. Meaning that unless the person who said it comes forward and explains what he meant, it stands as "the release has been discarded".
Which, given what I said, would be rather odd.
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Post by: Archonate
JohnHwangDD wrote:Archonate wrote:Hell, I bet if the only thing they released was new warriors, we'd still see a massive boom in new DE players. And that's without mention of a new codex...
Why do you and Hellfury think this? What's changed since the last time DE were on the shelves with a full line of models along with being the featured army in the starter set? Is just pent-up demand from not being on the shelves? Help explain, please.
Because the 3 huge reasons why nobody plays them, (Crappy models, crappy codex, lack of attention from GW), will no longer be problems with a new release. There are crowds willing to buy up a DE army when those 3 problems are addressed.
Just look at the ENORMOUS popularity difference between 2nd and 3rd edition Tyranids and you'll understand what better models, better codex and more attention from GW can do for an army. It's the exact same situation.
I like what Destrado said: saying that DE are doomed on the sole reason of them being DE is something I don't quite get
Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to convey, but it seems to me that this is exactly what you're doing.
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Post by: Reecius
Wood elves were total gak before they got redone and I never saw them played. I don't know the actual numbers of players though.
When the Woodies came back they came back huge. If the DE get the wood elf treatment, which is what I have heard many times, then the awesome models and kits will bring them into the limlight. They will become popular. Couple that with a good codex and you have a winner. If they have gone to the trouble of letting their top guy (Jes) spend time designing them, then that tells me as a layperson they are going to go through with it.
If they have really hot stuff, they want to release it as the models sell the game.
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Post by: Hellfury
JohnHwangDD wrote:@Hellfury:
If GW were to release 3 new DE kits right now, what would they be? They won't be Warriors, Raiders, or Jetbikes, as they're already plastic and those molds aren't yet paid for. So let's assume Wyches (because they can be Troops), Ravager (requiring a single sprue), and a plastic Archon (for completeness). OK, it's a nice "Wave 2" release, but you say there won't be a Codex? I think it falls flat, because players would still have to special order the models (and Codex), as GW doesn't stock DE in their stores. But really, your scenario doesn't make sense. Without a *major* push tied to a full Codex release, it simply doesn't make sense to release DE models. Archonate wrote:Hell, I bet if the only thing they released was new warriors, we'd still see a massive boom in new DE players. And that's without mention of a new codex...
Why do you and Hellfury think this? What's changed since the last time DE were on the shelves with a full line of models along with being the featured army in the starter set? Is just pent-up demand from not being on the shelves? Help explain, please.
Ok. I honestly cannot tell if you are deliberately being obtuse, but I will try and answer your question in earnest.
Archonate tried to explain it, but I thing you really did miss the point. If there was a new kit FOR ANY ARMY released tomorrow, it would sell. DE is the best example because they are, bar none, the most neglected army model-wise in 40K. No need to argue, it is simply a fact.
1) Current DE plastic are, to many, laughable at best. If not the majority of the line.
2) We see some really nice releases being done in plastic recently for many armies. GW has finally gotten caught up on plastic tech more or less.
3) There is in fact much interest in starting the army from various peoples perspective (anecdotal). I used to have a de army and would start one again if I had a reason too. Without new models, or at the very least new rules, there is no reason to.
4) Every time there is a new kit released, there is always a clamor from the gaming community to acquire them.
We haven't seen any models other than a couple neato haemonculi that were never destined for release, so it is impossible to answer your question about what has changed.
But given the points I have previously made in past posts, and the points I made in this post, it stands to reason that IF DE were to be given a fair shake (you know like every other army currently in production) they more than likely would be profitable.
I just cant think of any other way to put it, really.
As an aside. I guarantee that Warriors are being redone if it is to remain the core of the list like it is now. You don't have any proof that they haven't paid for themselves. And even if they hadn't, there have been many kits that have been recut in the past before they seem to have made their money back. Chaos warrios, dark elves warriors, high elf warriors, etc. The list is quite long.
Besides, the amount of people that want to get into playing DE are directly proportionate to what new models will be made. Less new models, less new players. Just like with every other army.
@ Archonate, thanks for trying to reiterate and clarify what I wrote.
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Post by: Jive Professor
Dark Elves seem to be doing very well, heck they almost lured me in with those Cold One Riders, and I'm rather staunchly anti-elf. If GW gives them the love, just like they've been giving the latest codices, then they will sell, no question. DE don't get played because the models are terrible and the rules are ancient.
Frankly though, whether the company is healthy or not, if GW can't push Emo Space Fey Slavers with Dart Guns and Piercings IN SPAAAAAACE!, then they don't belong in this business.
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Post by: Dave47
JohnHwangDD wrote:Quite frankly, the only way to release DE "properly" is to tie it to the starter box of a new edition.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that inclusion in the 3rd Edition boxed set was the worst thing that could have possibly happened to Dark Eldar, given the Codex GW chose to write for them. They were a competitive army, but they most certainly were not for beginners, and I think they must have pissed off many new players
Plus, by the middle of the 3rd Ed. life cycle, you could pick up all the Dark Eldar Warrior models you could ever need for like $30. That probably made the army more attractive, but I don't think it helped GW feel they were getting a good return on their investment. The ridiculously cheap secondhand prices of Warriors also lead less experienced and/or cheaper players to try and work with lists that, frankly, were not even slightly competitive. Which in turn helped feed into the "Dark Eldar are terrible!" meme.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
OK, guys, I think we simply disagree. I don't see GW simply throwing new DE models up "like any other army" and having them sell out. You seem to think that people will buy anything GW markets, even DE. As we won't find out for a while, I'm just going to let it be.
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Post by: MagickalMemories
Some of these rumors are obviously cr@p, which makes the whole dang thing suspect.
Had anyone heard anything about new Space Hulk this year before this thread? I know I hadn't.
Eric
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Post by: Kilkrazy
My impression of DE is that there is a small minority of senior players who like them because played well they are a strong, flexible army. However they are difficult to play, and not for newbies.
If GW want to make them more popular, the codex will need to be redone to appeal to a broader userbase, in other words, it needs to be made more powerful -- that is, easy to play and cheap units.
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Post by: viney
LoL, I am still getting a kick out of that translation. It is much better in spanish, as far as DE go it just said that they have discarded the release/launch. The "su" in that phrase applies to "lanzimento" not " DE". Being a new 40k guy, I don't really care either way, but we all know what assuming does, especially with rumors.
Chao Locos tengo que lanzar lodo al trono del emperador falso
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Post by: focusedfire
I'm finding these 40k release rumors a little hard to believe. The reason for my disbelief is that this leaves an Imperium only year. With all of the gak that GW has been getting for favoritism towards the Imperium, I doubt that they really want to feed into a belief that kills sales.
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Post by: BrookM
The Empire getting a plastic steam tank, great swords and a redone War Altar does sound really tasty. Especially if the plastic Greatswords look great to boot, finally an excuse to field a large block of them.
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Post by: yakface
MagickalMemories wrote:Some of these rumors are obviously cr@p, which makes the whole dang thing suspect.
Had anyone heard anything about new Space Hulk this year before this thread? I know I hadn't.
Eric
Yes I actually had.
Space Hulk is indeed being worked on, so if you believe me, that rumor is true and given that it is my favorite game of all time (at least the 1st version of it), I'll be very excited when they finally do release it.
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Post by: Archonate
Here's a better translation complements of http://translate.google.com/translate_t#
Thanks to a birdie, I give a lot of very reliable news about what Games Workshop launched during 2009. Obviously, insurance is insurance that is said there is nothing, but it is fairly safe
* March: War of the Ring. A supplement to SDA is a game of skirmishes, not battles. Some even sell plastic bases to "adapt" or "give up" the ministry of The Lord of the Rings.
* April: is the Imperial Guard. Few new models, but there will be little (and big).
* May: Fantasy, second wave of miniatures of the Empire. Andalusia familiar Steam Tank is joined (at last) the Great Espaderos plastic. We will see also the new Altar of War.
* July: Planet Strike Warhammer 40,000. A supplement for planetary assaults. Say that the scenery is the best that has ever seen.
* August: Elves for SDA.
* September: Do you remember that you said that 2009 was going to reissue a classic? So we can say that this is SPACE HULK. With new models (impressive), among others and exterminate Genestealers. Undoubtedly the hit of 2009 (and now also expect Heroquest reprinted). Ah, we were told that the price may be high, so buying in the UK is essential.
* October: It is possible (but unconfirmed) that the Warhammer Fantasy Skaven to see.
* In November it is highly likely to see a chapter of the Codex Marines, but is not yet confirmed.
And now some news:
* For 2010, it seems almost certain to be new Codex Tyranids and bloody Angeles (using the pull of Space Hulk), and is said to Necrons or (attention) Tau.
* In the first Fantasy army will be to Khemri. No news of the Beasts of Chaos.
* There is good news and bad news for fans of the Dark Eldar. The good news is that the project is finished, books and miniatures. The bad news is that for the low popularity of the Codex, has been ruled out launching.
* A rumor that had appeared on that Games Workshop was "set aside" the books and go to the PDF for free (as it did in Japan) is denied.
That's it. We thank who has blown the news (which will remain in anonymity).
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Seems odd to produce a finished Codex and sculpt *all* the Dark Eldar stuff and then pull the plug. If it was an early draft of the codex and a few sculpts it probably wouldn't cost so much to cancel especially if the moulds have not been made. Once the moulds (especially moulds for plastic kits) are cast up the serious investment is made. Before that point it would still be reasonable cut their losses, plenty of other figures are sculpted and not used, some are even cast up.
It all depends on their projections for profit and the investment already made. If they've got a book and a fist full of greens people are kidding themselves if they think they couldn't afford to cancel it in place of something else. See, Dark Eldar may well be profitable, but are they profitable *enough*? I'm sure they will take money for them, they won't make a loss. But these army releases dominate a couple of months of WD space and investment across the company. If GW realise that replacing them with any one of a number of other things would bring significantly more profit for those month's time and effort, there's no sense in sticking with DE.
That said, beyond this rumour there's no reason to either take or lose hope of an eventual release.
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Post by: BrookM
I believe the proper term in regards to the Dark Eldar is "shelved and put in the fridge until the right time", not killed or abandoned.
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Post by: Archonate
Hellfury wrote:I used to have a de army and would start one again if I had a reason too. Without new models, or at the very least new rules, there is no reason to.
I'd be a multi-millionaire if I had a nickle for every time I saw this sentiment in a 40k forum.
I'm going to reiterate my point about Tyranids because it's an complete parallel to the DE situation.
In 2nd Edition Tyranid models were absolutely atrocious. They were a laughingstock. Their Codex had very little fluff, background or explanation. The army list offered very few options for anything. Biomorphs were available only to Warriors, Lictors, Carnifexes, and Hive Tyrants, and most of those upgrades were weak and useless. A bunch of the units in the army list were expensive and useless... GW rarely mentioned them except as a courtesy footnote here and there and they were, by an enormous margin, the single least played army... Is any of this sounding familiar?
Enter 3rd Edition.
The re-release of Tyranids featured an ENTIRELY redone model line. Models for all Tyranid units take on a common uniform, "related" appearance, and looked approximately 82,572 times cooler. Nearly every unit in the codex could be biomorphed. All biomorphs were viable, cool and worth considering. All units were viable, cool and worth considering. GW writes up very extensive fluff, background and explanations. GW starts talking about them all the time and giving them some prominence in the galaxy. What happened to their popularity then???
Did GW say "Meh, we did all this work to make Tyranids breathtakingly amazing, but since they're not popular now, they probably won't sell. Shelf the entire project until the crappy ones become popular"? Did people say " Ew, Tyranids. Weren't they that slowed looking army from 2nd Edition with the weak Codex? Forget it!"
... No. GW said; "They don't sell because we gave them crap. If we give them a fair shake, they'll be popular." And the customers said; "Wow! Not only are these new models a million times better looking, but their new codex makes them much more user-friendly and powerful with tons more options, all of which are useful! Suddenly, I want to play Tyranids!"
Why would GW shoot themselves in the foot by boxing a project, when their experience has shown that said project, with the work they put into making it attractive, will in all likelihood be a smashing success?
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
I call massive monkey bollocks on the shelving of Dark Eldar.
I'm talking King Kong sized Monkey Bollocks.
Why? If the book is done, the miniatures are done etc, then the investment has been made. Regardless of anything else, this is financial idiocy. IF it's ready, it releases.
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Post by: Destrado
Archonate wrote:
I like what Destrado said: saying that DE are doomed on the sole reason of them being DE is something I don't quite get
Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to convey, but it seems to me that this is exactly what you're doing.
For clarification, I think that some people are trying to say that Dark Eldar are awful because they are Dark Eldar, thus unpopular and unwanted right from the start. If it were any other army, like the Fimir, the Fishmen, or the deadly and crazed mermaids of Zanzibar with their exploding wigs of death, they'd be hugely popular and awesome. But they aren't, they are Dark Eldar and thus even if they have all the boxes ready for shipping they still could be cancelled because... you get the point.
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Post by: Hellfury
yakface wrote:MagickalMemories wrote:Some of these rumors are obviously cr@p, which makes the whole dang thing suspect.
Had anyone heard anything about new Space Hulk this year before this thread? I know I hadn't.
Eric
Yes I actually had.
Space Hulk is indeed being worked on, so if you believe me, that rumor is true and given that it is my favorite game of all time (at least the 1st version of it), I'll be very excited when they finally do release it.
Thanks for that.
Between you confirming that it is in the pipeline now and Destris giving me hope early 2007, it may very well be plausible to those not in the know so to speak, that we may indeed see space hulk befoere the year is up.
a fall release would be great timing to boos christmas sales. I would covet two copies myself. Covet being an understatement.
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Post by: dietrich
If GW gives DE a better fluff treatment, cool new models, and support in WD (which basically consists of putting them in Bat Reps with cool 'eavy metal paint jobs) - they'll sell well. They won't be SM sales, probably not even Ork sales, but I think at least in the Necron/Tau range of sales. They don't need to be released in conjunction with anything else (new edition, new supplement, etc.) to do well. It would help sales if it's tied to another product, but not necessary. I'd like to see them come out around another APOC wave (which would be at least 4) with some sort of Dark Eldar APOC kit. They could also do splash releases to support both lines (just things like 3 ravagers, etc.). It'd be great if they did an APOC model that could be build for both Eldar and Dark Eldar (with Dark Eldar having a sprue with more spikes and skulls to adorn the kit).
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Post by: two_heads_talking
NecronLord3 wrote:I think GW would be smart to release more boxed sets like the Assault on Black Reach box. That set contains an awesome set of starting miniatures for players to begin with or supplement an existing army. Releasing the DE Vs. another army would IMO, go along way toward making the DE more profitable for GW. If it were up to me, I would try to put at least one of these out each year.
It's a starter set, so what do you expect from AoRB? GW already did a release with DE vs Space Marines, and it was so awesome that people still have the DE warrior sprues kicking aroudn their houses.. I'm glad it's not up to you, but thanks anyways.
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Post by: Scottywan82
Can i ask a question? If IG releases in April/May, where are the pictures? Dammit, can't someone up at GW be a little corrupt and leak pictures like a nice person!??!
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Post by: gorgon
Archonate wrote:Did GW say "Meh, we did all this work to make Tyranids breathtakingly amazing, but since they're not popular now, they probably won't sell. Shelf the entire project until the crappy ones become popular"? Did people say "Ew, Tyranids. Weren't they that slowed looking army from 2nd Edition with the weak Codex? Forget it!"
... No. GW said; "They don't sell because we gave them crap. If we give them a fair shake, they'll be popular." And the customers said; "Wow! Not only are these new models a million times better looking, but their new codex makes them much more user-friendly and powerful with tons more options, all of which are useful! Suddenly, I want to play Tyranids!"
Why would GW shoot themselves in the foot by boxing a project, when their experience has shown that said project, with the work they put into making it attractive, will in all likelihood be a smashing success?
I don't disagree with your general point. But as a long time Tyranid player, I have to say that the number of Tyranid players at a GT didn't change much from 2nd edition to 3rd edition. After the 4th edition codex was released, things changed due to the popularity (due to army strength and ease of build) of Nidzilla armies.
GT participants don't reflect all hobbyists. However, I'm pretty confident in saying that from what I witnessed at GTs and at stores, Tyranids only stopped being a niche army in 4th edition. IMO, the best analogy for DE is still Wood Elves.
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Post by: Xelkireth
Dexy wrote:I want to play Gentleman of the Ring. Is this some kind of posh boxing minitures game?
Oh man... I was thinking the same thing. I was like Mike Tyson in a suit?
JohnHwangDD wrote:
If GW felt this way, they wouldn't have cancelled / delayed the DE release.
Pssst. John. It's a rumor. Doesn't mean it's true.
Howard A Treesong wrote:Seems odd to produce a finished Codex and sculpt *all* the Dark Eldar stuff and then pull the plug. If it was an early draft of the codex and a few sculpts it probably wouldn't cost so much to cancel especially if the moulds have not been made.
Which is correct. Why could any company, let alone the money grubbing GW, invest x amount of dollars and man-hours into sculpting, writing and revising rules only to be like... nah... We hate the idea of a potential return of investment.
I call BS on most of these rumors. Someone pass the salt please.
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Post by: gorgon
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I call massive monkey bollocks on the shelving of Dark Eldar.
I'm talking King Kong sized Monkey Bollocks.
Why? If the book is done, the miniatures are done etc, then the investment has been made. Regardless of anything else, this is financial idiocy. IF it's ready, it releases.
To be fair, no, it's not idiocy. GW's only costs would be development costs, which couldn't be that high compared to other many other industries. Companies do shelve developed products if they feel the timing isn't right. Hell, feature films (albeit usually bad ones) that cost millions of dollars sometimes sit around for years on shelves before they're finished and released.
Printing all the books and casting all the miniatures, THEN dumping them into cold storage in a warehouse, that's idiocy. But that's not what we're talking about.
Mind you, I still think DE are on the way. GW will want to add a "new" army to 40K at some point, and totally revamped DE could essentially do that while having some existing collectors to dampen some of the risk.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Development Costs are extremely high for GW.
All the plastics would need to be sculpted and dies made, molds for the metal....lots of money sunk there to just not release them.
If they were that unpopular (which they aren't. I know a helluva lot of people holding off until the new Book comes out...) why bother developing them at all?
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Post by: Platuan4th
yakface wrote:MagickalMemories wrote:Some of these rumors are obviously cr@p, which makes the whole dang thing suspect.
Had anyone heard anything about new Space Hulk this year before this thread? I know I hadn't.
Eric
Yes I actually had.
Space Hulk is indeed being worked on, so if you believe me, that rumor is true and given that it is my favorite game of all time (at least the 1st version of it), I'll be very excited when they finally do release it.
Thanks for coming in and saying it. I'd feel odd if I had said something and then had to explain "Yakface told me!" And I'm pretty prone to believe you based on all other evidence. Plus excited.
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Post by: Steelmage99
Classic GW.
"We release a new army (Dark Eldar) with a thin-ass codex and but-ugly miniatures....and then we'll leave it alone for several years".
*Sped a few years forward*
"Nah, looking at the sales-figures, it isn't viable to rerelease Dark Eldar".
Well, duh! A self-fullfilling profesi if I ever saw one.
Kinda like, "Space Marines sells well therefore we will support them more, so they'll sell more, so they be supported more, so they'll sell more".
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Post by: gorgon
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Development Costs are extremely high for GW.
All the plastics would need to be sculpted and dies made, molds for the metal....lots of money sunk there to just not release them.
If they were that unpopular (which they aren't. I know a helluva lot of people holding off until the new Book comes out...) why bother developing them at all?
MDG, it's because sometimes it's better to eat some costs than incur all the costs of releasing something you think will fall flat on its face. I don't know how I can be any clearer than that. Also remember that GW can design plastics with CAD now. They wouldn't necessarily have to create molds to develop the new miniatures.
AGAIN, not saying I think this is the case for DE and GW. I'm just educating you that this happens in a wide variety of industries, and that it's not *impossible* that GW would do it too.
I've already said what I think that rumor really means. And FWIW, I think DE would be a nearly guaranteed success with Jes and Phil Kelly at the helm.
4720
Post by: The Phazer
I don't buy the DE cancellation, but more Space Hulk would be excellent.
I'm curious about the notion of movement bases for round slotabases being made for LOTR - if they had, say, space for five models spaced exactly two inches apart for coherancy they would be a revelation for horde army 40k players. They'd make playing with massed Termigants, Guard or Orks an order of magnitude easier. I hope that bit is true at least.
Phazer
2700
Post by: dietrich
I can buy that DE have been pushed back. Based on their appearance in fifth edition rulebook, they're a 'core' army and will get supported. Plus, they have APOC support, and I think more than Sisters or GKs. I'm sure they'll be back, but I think the question is when.
Also consider that it might be what they have ready is being held back until they complete more models. That entire line may be redone (at least any warrior models), so it could be that they have some HQs, the bikes, and maybe another unit ready (wyches), but are waiting for units like the warriors, mandrakes, the winged heavies, and the skyboarders to be ready to launch. Or, they have may developed new units that need worked up before the release.
Someone on B&C said that SWs were the September UK Gamesday release. It could be that, it could be that they'll be announced or previewed then and released towards the end of the year for the Christmas release.
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Post by: George Spiggott
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Development Costs are extremely high for GW.
All the plastics would need to be sculpted and dies made, molds for the metal....lots of money sunk there to just not release them.
We don't know they've got that far, we know that Jes Goodwin is/was working on the plastics but with GW's current technology this could mean that they still only exist as computer models waiting to become moulds. In a similar fashion the 'finished' Codex may exist merely as a PDF on Jervis' Computer. As far as the Studio is concerned both the plastics and codex are finished.
Dark Eldar Players have been waiting a decade now, there's no rush.
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Post by: NecronLord3
Steelmage99 wrote:Classic GW.
"We release a new army (Dark Eldar) with a thin-ass codex and but-ugly miniatures....and then we'll leave it alone for several years".
*Sped a few years forward*
"Nah, looking at the sales-figures, it isn't viable to rerelease Dark Eldar".
Well, duh! A self-fullfilling profesi if I ever saw one.
Kinda like, "Space Marines sells well therefore we will support them more, so they'll sell more, so they be supported more, so they'll sell more".
Yeah, just like when someone said Necrons didn't sell well either! After 8 years without a codex update and only 1 new model after the initial release, of course sales are down. Duh!
GW's whole marketing outlook is skewed horribly. As they claim that Space Marines sell better than every other army, so they make more Space Marines which again sell well. Creating an endless cycle of Space Marine releases while non SM fans are left out, and abandon the game. Which again, creates further inflated SM sales, when non- SM players stop buying product.
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Post by: Hammerziet
Asmodeus wrote:Dexy wrote:I want to play Gentleman of the Ring. Is this some kind of posh boxing minitures game?
Oh man... I was thinking the same thing. I was like Mike Tyson in a suit?
I was thinking along the lines of a polite LotR...
Frodo: Good day Mr Sauron, hope I'm not interupting but I seem to have chanced upon your ring.
Sauron: Why thank you sir please stay for some cigars and brandy.
8249
Post by: Hammerziet
Also forgive me for not going bananas at Space hulk but what the heck is it?
Back to the Dark Eldar when FAILfish translated them as being discarded I got a really weird image of the room at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark and one of the boxes full of Dark Eldar stuff.
"Where is the new DE codex?"
"Its being worked on by top men."
"Who?"
"TOP men."
1
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Hammerziet wrote:Also forgive me for not going bananas at Space hulk but what the heck is it?
....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Hulk
Many people think the first edition was better. I would go further and say that the first edition plus the extra weapons from Deathwing was good, and the Librarian and psychic rules, and variant genestealers, were rubbish.
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Post by: Augustus
Yo quiero Exterminadores Grandes
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Scottywan82 wrote:If IG releases in April/May, where are the pictures?
IG are May, so pictures should come out March. Have a little patience.
____
gorgon wrote:the number of Tyranid players at a GT didn't change much from 2nd edition to 3rd edition. After the 4th edition codex was released, things changed due to the popularity (due to army strength and ease of build) of Nidzilla armies.
IMO, the best analogy for DE is still Wood Elves.
QFT on both points.
____
gorgon wrote:GW's only costs would be development costs,
Mind you, I still think DE are on the way. GW will want to add a "new" army to 40K at some point, and totally revamped DE could essentially do that while having some existing collectors to dampen some of the risk.
Generally agreed on both, but it boggles the mind that they would green-light development if they weren't planning to release.
But I think GW's most significant costs are opportunity costs. GW has exactly 12 release slots per year, of which no more than 5 or 6 can be spent on 40k. Given the scarcity of 40k release slots, each one needs to be a solid money-maker.
Thus 2009 has Orks Wave 2, Apocalypse Wave 3, and Imperial Guard. Planetstrike probably carries additional Apoc & IG momentum, which is why it's released now, as opposed to 2008. SW SM are at the "safe" end of the year slot, when GW is going to get loads of Christmas money anyways.
Tho if GW is doing a new army, I'd really rather see LatD / Traitor Guard come up. IMO, that has tremendous potential for all players.
____
Steelmage99 wrote:"We release a new army (Dark Eldar) with a thin-ass codex and but-ugly miniatures....and then we'll leave it alone for several years".
To be fair, DE had a "standard" 3E Codex (the skinny books in 3E were BA/ DA/ SW), and the minis were more-or-less par for late 2E sculpting ( cf. pre-3E Nids and Necrons).
GW gave DE a *very* fair shot in 3E, and their Codex has always been competitive.
____
George Spiggott wrote:We don't know they've got that far, we know that Jes Goodwin is/was working on the plastics but with GW's current technology this could mean that they still only exist as computer models waiting to become moulds. In a similar fashion the 'finished' Codex may exist merely as a PDF on Jervis' Computer. As far as the Studio is concerned both the plastics and codex are finished.
Dark Eldar Players have been waiting a decade now, there's no rush.
I agree. Though with GW's new CAD/CAM technology, the DE "sculpts" might just be CAD/CAM models, along with a stripped-down ruleset that hasn't even been typeset.
After a decade it's hard to imagine that GW could "rush" a DE release.
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Post by: Alpharius
yakface wrote:MagickalMemories wrote:Some of these rumors are obviously cr@p, which makes the whole dang thing suspect.
Had anyone heard anything about new Space Hulk this year before this thread? I know I hadn't.
Eric
Yes I actually had.
Space Hulk is indeed being worked on, so if you believe me, that rumor is true and given that it is my favorite game of all time (at least the 1st version of it), I'll be very excited when they finally do release it.
Huzzah!
Kilkrazy wrote:Hammerziet wrote:Also forgive me for not going bananas at Space hulk but what the heck is it?
....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Hulk
Many people think the first edition was better. I would go further and say that the first edition plus the extra weapons from Deathwing was good, and the Librarian and psychic rules, and variant genestealers, were rubbish.
I'm with you on this one, though I really would like some expanded rules (psykers!) and units in the 'new' Edition too...
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Post by: gorgon
NecronLord3 wrote:Yeah, just like when someone said Necrons didn't sell well either! After 8 years without a codex update and only 1 new model after the initial release, of course sales are down. Duh!
I sure saw a LOT of Necron armies when the Necron phalanx was the toughest thing in the game. Now that they've fallen back to the pack (at best), you see a lot of them for sale on Bartertown.
Of course, that must be incorrect, because it implies people buy armies based on their power level, and we all know the only players with that mindset are the 0.000000000000001% that play in tournaments. Jervis said so. 
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Post by: gorgon
JohnHwangDD wrote:Tho if GW is doing a new army, I'd really rather see LatD / Traitor Guard come up. IMO, that has tremendous potential for all players.
I predict we'll see a brand-new SM army get a full codex treatment (i.e. not SW, BT, DA or BA) before LatD happen. From everything I've heard and been told, they're really set against it. I don't know the reason. I half-believe the more customers ask for it, the more they dig in their heels. The good news is that the studio seems to get a shakeup every so often, and with some new faces a champion for the army might emerge.
To be fair, DE had a "standard" 3E Codex (the skinny books in 3E were BA/DA/SW), and the minis were more-or-less par for late 2E sculpting (cf. pre-3E Nids and Necrons).
GW gave DE a *very* fair shot in 3E, and their Codex has always been competitive.
I think it's better to say they gave them a fair shot, but with a subpar product, all-around.
They introduced DE in a starter box in which they were *grossly* outclassed by the other army in the box. Yeah, that'll hook 'em. Not that you'd ever get anyone at GW to admit publicly that customers buy based on what kicks a$$ on the table.
The codex was only competitive on the strength of certain units. Most of the book was garbage even after the redux codex was released years later.
And as we've discussed on this forum before, DE weren't what the customer base was expecting (which was Chaos Eldar). Which is fine, except that the fluff was so sparse, no one really knew what they were. Seems insignificant, but IMO players also buy based on what hooks their imagination. And I'm not sure there was enough there to really inspire people.
So they had a poor introduction, a bad codex, sparse fluff and miniatures that didn't hold up. I agree that they produced the entire line of miniatures, promoted them in WD and kept them on the shelves for a while, but the product was still lacking. I don't agree that it was a case where the product was good but just not to people's taste. If I thought the minis were still pretty good and the codex and fluff was well-conceived, I'd say axe them. But I just don't feel that way.
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Post by: Ozymandias
Continuing on the WE analogy for DE, WE were pushed back due to the release of the Ogre Kingdoms Army Book so it is possible that DE are being pushed back despite being nearly finished.
But I don't think they are cancelled entirely, that wouldn't make sense.
Ozymandias, King of Kings
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
@gorgon:
Yeah, it's completely nuts how they won't do Traitor Guard / LatD of some sort. This is an army that needs numbers, and moves other neat stuff as well. Take Guard mobs and CSM, add Mutants and generic Daemons, make everything markable and you're done!
WRT DE in 3E, other Codices had similar unnevenness in playability. C: Eldar was only about half-playable. But yeah, non-Chaos "Dark" Eldar was not delivering against expectations, and that may have been the worst of it. But again, I don't think DE were any worse than the other old stuff. Go back to when Necrons were introduced, and you'll see what I mean.
With Ogres and Tau, GW learned a *lot* about how to introduce a new army, and that showed in the sales.
2700
Post by: dietrich
Considering that in a lot of the fluff, it's imperial vs. cult (chaos, genestealer, or just a general uprising), it's a shame they don't build an army around that. And it could easily be a 'count as' for other 'cultish' type armies.
HQ - human (with option to upgrade stats by either chaos gifts or being a hybrid)
Elite - slow, tough, big stuff (mutants or ? mini-carnies?)
Troops - masses of poorly trained troops (cultists)
a few units of renegade guard/PDF (traitors)
FA - fast killy stuff (daemons or stealers)
Heavy - looted tanks or 'big, slow, bug' (daemon prince or carnifex, etc.)
While it might not be a perfect match (maybe the FA is Init 5 vs 6 for stealers) it could easily work as a 'count as'.
It would also let people do armies like Ad Mech (fast killy stuff is cyborgs, robots - whatever) and have something that works well for them.
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Post by: Ozymandias
JohnHwangDD wrote:@gorgon:
Yeah, it's completely nuts how they won't do Traitor Guard / LatD of some sort. This is an army that needs numbers, and moves other neat stuff as well. Take Guard mobs and CSM, add Mutants and generic Daemons, make everything markable and you're done!
Step 1: Make LatD
Step 2: ??
Step 3: Profit!!
Silly GW, it's so easy!
Ozymandias, King of Kings
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Post by: AgeOfEgos
yakface wrote:MagickalMemories wrote:Some of these rumors are obviously cr@p, which makes the whole dang thing suspect.
Had anyone heard anything about new Space Hulk this year before this thread? I know I hadn't.
Eric
Yes I actually had.
Space Hulk is indeed being worked on, so if you believe me, that rumor is true and given that it is my favorite game of all time (at least the 1st version of it), I'll be very excited when they finally do release it.
Does it include 3d plastic tiles?
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Post by: BrookM
Makes me wonder what the price tag and contents ratio will be. I'm especially looking forward to finding out just how big a hulk sector you can create with the enclosed tiles.
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Post by: Scottywan82
They're probably not enclosed. Just thick plastic for the halls and door frames with slotted doors. The rooms might be built up.
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Post by: Archonate
JohnHwangDD wrote:WRT DE in 3E, other Codices had similar unnevenness in playability. C: Eldar was only about half-playable. But yeah, non-Chaos "Dark" Eldar was not delivering against expectations, and that may have been the worst of it. But again, I don't think DE were any worse than the other old stuff.
I agree. Seems completely messed up to me that the 2nd Edition quality, semi-functional, "as bad as the other old stuff" DE Codex to which you refer, is the very same one DE players STILL have to use today...
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
@Archonate: No worse than the pups...
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Post by: Hellfury
JohnHwangDD wrote:@Archonate: No worse than the pups...
Yeah. Spacewolves have it so rough by being given errata to use many of the new SM rules.
Poor things. Whatever will this neglected SM army do?
Oh wait, sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt the SW pity fest. Continue on as if you had no knowledge that they are getting a codex late this year.
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Post by: ubermosher
SW vs DE again. Never thought I'd long for the days when every thread would degenerate into rants about the CSM codex.
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Post by: chaplaingrabthar
To be fair, there has ben very little SW mentioned in this thread, but yes it does seem that a lot of threads are turning into 'whatever happened to the DE?' reminisces
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
That's because:
- none of us care about Fantasy or LotR
- we've been over the Stompa & Shadowsword
- Guard is tricking out and we're reacting in other threads
- it's waaay too early to discuss Woofs
and...
- the OP specifically called out DE, which always touches a nerve.
So we need to let the emotion drain out cathartically.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
dietrich wrote:Considering that in a lot of the fluff, it's imperial vs. cult (chaos, genestealer, or just a general uprising), it's a shame they don't build an army around that. And it could easily be a 'count as' for other 'cultish' type armies.
HQ - human (with option to upgrade stats by either chaos gifts or being a hybrid)
Elite - slow, tough, big stuff (mutants or ? mini-carnies?)
Troops - masses of poorly trained troops (cultists)
a few units of renegade guard/PDF (traitors)
FA - fast killy stuff (daemons or stealers)
Heavy - looted tanks or 'big, slow, bug' (daemon prince or carnifex, etc.)
While it might not be a perfect match (maybe the FA is Init 5 vs 6 for stealers) it could easily work as a 'count as'.
It would also let people do armies like Ad Mech (fast killy stuff is cyborgs, robots - whatever) and have something that works well for them.
I would like to see a "Rebel" codex covering non-Chaos human rebellion forces, supported by Genestealers, cults, Tau or any other general do-badders who might help a human world that rebelled against rightful authority. You could even do a rebel Imperial Loyalist cult army who were rebelling in the name of the Emperor against corrupt officials supported by regular IG.
There would be lots of options for customising the army in different directions depending on the alien/cult support, with loaned alien technology, ally units and so on. You could even have a loyalist rebellion supported by local SM or other Imperial agencies. In other words, a kind of non-Chaos Imperial civil war.
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Post by: Xelkireth
Kilkrazy wrote:I would like to see a "Rebel" codex covering non-Chaos human rebellion forces, supported by Genestealers, cults, Tau or any other general do-badders who might help a human world that rebelled against rightful authority.
Wait, wait, wait... Tau are bad guys?
Rightful authority?
@Kilkrazy: Thanks for the early morning laugh.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
LittleLeadMen wrote:Are you really thanking Babelfish for the translation, or were you being sarcastic? Because that's a pretty crap translation job. Yes, we can understand (kind of) what its talking about, but seriously, that's awkward english, at best.
you don't spend nearly enough time reading translations, for a free computer program, that's awesome.
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Post by: Balance
Kilkrazy wrote:I would like to see a "Rebel" codex covering non-Chaos human rebellion forces, supported by Genestealers, cults, Tau or any other general do-badders who might help a human world that rebelled against rightful authority. You could even do a rebel Imperial Loyalist cult army who were rebelling in the name of the Emperor against corrupt officials supported by regular IG.
There would be lots of options for customising the army in different directions depending on the alien/cult support, with loaned alien technology, ally units and so on. You could even have a loyalist rebellion supported by local SM or other Imperial agencies. In other words, a kind of non-Chaos Imperial civil war.
Lots of people would like it. Sadly, GW's current design philosophy seems to be 'options are bad' so it's not a very likely option...
Although, I guess they could have special characters like Cultist McGenestealer, Mr. Chaosspacemarine, and Heretic-Commisar Tausympathizer.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Hordini wrote:
But really, a poor track record with DE in the past is no reason they can't do very well in the future, as long as they fix the problems that they had (crappy models, crappy codex) and market them well before, during, and after their release. And army, even and army like DE, with good models and good codex is a whole different animal really. Plus, once they get a new release, I'm sure GW stores will start carrying them again, and the special order only crap will be a thing of the past.
Assuming there's any truth to this rumor, here's how it would go.
GW knows their market can support about 6 major releases a year (numbers are made up).
Like all companies, they know that past sales are a good predictor of future sales. Not a completely accurate one, but a good one. If we call Space Marine sales 100, they know Chaos sales are 80, Eldar are 70 and so on, and so on down to Dark Eldar which by all reports were not good sellers.
Knowing this year is going to be tough for every company they look at their options.
Sure, MAYBE Dark Eldar will break all historical patterns (they were released 10 years ago) and MAYBE they will be hottest thing since Jessica Alba but... why take the chance?
Their models no doubt predict Space Wolves or Planet Strike will outsell Dark Eldar and 2009 is not looking like the year to gamble a quarter's earnings on a dicey product.
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Post by: Xelkireth
Kid_Kyoto wrote:....and 2009 is not looking like the year to gamble a quarter's earnings on a dicey product.
What are you talking about? BarackMessiah is here to save the world. That's right... the world.
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Post by: skyth
I think the biggest thing keeping LATD from being released is that the bean-counters can't tell that it is selling.
Same thing with mixed forces...Chaos being split apart (daemons vs mortals vs beasts/daemons vs CSM) is part of that same coin.
4670
Post by: Wehrkind
I think you kind of miss the point Ozy:
Step 1: Make rules for LatD. Allow for use of CSM, IG vehicles and daemon models already in existance, as well as conversions of standard IG infantry.
Step 2: Produce "LotD Upgrade Kit" with bits to change standard infantry and vehicles to be more naughty.
Step 3: Make a few new kits with special units, such as hive scum (with a Necromunda feel) and cultists (sort of a 40k flagellants), as well as some new vehicles or whatever. Whatever the choice, some multi part plastics that would be great for conversions.
Step 4: Make a few special character metals.
Step 5: Watch how the introduction of a 100 page book, 2-6 plastic kits and upgrade sets spurs sales on many different lines of models, lines which historically are not necessarily top sellers. Enjoy watching the return on investment of many other lines of models improve and work towards the return one expects for Space Marines.
Step 6: Profit.
See, I filled in some of the blanks you were uncertain about.
6013
Post by: Xelkireth
chaplaingrabthar wrote:To be fair, there has ben very little SW mentioned in this thread, but yes it does seem that a lot of threads are turning into 'whatever happened to the DE?' reminisces
In my humble opinion, that's because most of the wargear for Space Wolves says refer to the Space Marine Codex, which is very mighty.
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
For better or worse, I think Kid Kyoto's got it right on the money. When DE were first released, the economy was going strong - like gangbusters. Add to that the fact that GW wasn't seeing a whole lot of competition in the miniatures wargaming market. Warmachine hadn't appeared yet and FOW wasn't around to compete for market share (granted, there was some pretty heft competition with the CCG market, but that's apples to oranges in some ways - indirect competition vs direct). In today's climate, the economy's a whole lot more volatile and GW's got more direct competition - can you blame GW for wanting to go the safer route of releasing old, proven favorites - IG, SW, Skaven, BA, 'Nids?
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Post by: gorgon
skyth wrote:I think the biggest thing keeping LATD from being released is that the bean-counters can't tell that it is selling.
True. However, the vibe I get is that none of the designers are even interested in pitching the idea to the business side. I find it weird just because LatD are so intrinsically 40K with all their gothic, chaotic, religious weirdness. I mean, if you can't find anything there to work with...
Ah well.
Anyway the point is (getting this sort of but not really back on topic) that as I understand things, the designers definitely have a say in the process. So if you want a given project to move forward, you probably need a champion in the studio, and someone on the business side buying what the designer is selling.
That's why I think DE will move forward at some point...Jes and Phil Kelly are on the job.
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Post by: Platuan4th
gorgon wrote:That's why I think DE will move forward at some point...Jes and Phil Kelly are on the job.
I have a feeling that if both Jes and Phil are pushing for it, it will happen.
3197
Post by: MagickalMemories
yakface wrote:MagickalMemories wrote:Some of these rumors are obviously cr@p, which makes the whole dang thing suspect.
Had anyone heard anything about new Space Hulk this year before this thread? I know I hadn't.
Eric
Yes I actually had.
Space Hulk is indeed being worked on, so if you believe me, that rumor is true and given that it is my favorite game of all time (at least the 1st version of it), I'll be very excited when they finally do release it.
You, sir, HAVE earned the trust I have in you.
You've heard it's being worked on... have you heard that it's a 2009 release?
Eric
123
Post by: Alpharius
Wehrkind wrote:I think you kind of miss the point Ozy:
Step 1: Make rules for LatD. Allow for use of CSM, IG vehicles and daemon models already in existance, as well as conversions of standard IG infantry.
Step 2: Produce "LotD Upgrade Kit" with bits to change standard infantry and vehicles to be more naughty.
Step 3: Make a few new kits with special units, such as hive scum (with a Necromunda feel) and cultists (sort of a 40k flagellants), as well as some new vehicles or whatever. Whatever the choice, some multi part plastics that would be great for conversions.
Step 4: Make a few special character metals.
Step 5: Watch how the introduction of a 100 page book, 2-6 plastic kits and upgrade sets spurs sales on many different lines of models, lines which historically are not necessarily top sellers. Enjoy watching the return on investment of many other lines of models improve and work towards the return one expects for Space Marines.
Step 6: Profit.
See, I filled in some of the blanks you were uncertain about.
You should snail mail this over to GW.
What you outlined is spot on, clear and so obvious (and simple!) that I just can't see why GW hasn't already done this, or worst case, why they won't do this.
ASAP.
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Post by: Ozymandias
I think you missed my point Wehrkind. What you just wrote isn't easy and isn't a sure thing by any means. Plus, there's really no way to track the sales for just that codex. You could track the upgrade kit sales but not the original IG box sets.
Everyone keeps saying, "Just do this and this and everyone will buy it" and I really don't think it's that simple.
Ozymandias, King of Kings
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Post by: Balance
LatD may be a case of being too much of a 'general purpose' army as well. While a few factions may be in the game due to being part of the game's story, most are there to fulfill a function, at least theoretically. Eldar are ultra-specialized, Space Marines are the midpoint, Orks and Tyranids are both flavors of horde close combat... perhaps GW don't see a niche for LatD, despite them being more flavorful than a lot of other ideas?
(I still think that if 40k was being rebooted, LatD should be the default 'Chaos' army with CSM as elites.)
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Post by: gorgon
IMO, the opportunity was there to allow LatD players to continue using some of their models, even if a LatD codex wasn't going to happen. The CSM book could have been a true "renegades" book by adding Traitors and a few gribblies, like you describe. Then the Daemons book could have been a true Daemonworld book with the inclusion of Mutants (which live on Daemonworlds in vast numbers according to the fluff). Top it off with a Legions book with a CSM focus and coverage of the cult chapters, and it would have been a better overall treatment of Chaos, IMO.
Anyhoo, no one picked up that ball and ran with it, so here we are. I suggested more than once that we should take up a collection and bribe Phil Kelly into become the studio champion for LatD. Everyone would win.
@Ozymandias -- I'd bet the objections to LatD on the business side had more to do with them not being newbie-friendly. In GW's ideal world, little Billy picks a codex, selects a few units from it, and walks over to the rack of clearly-marked plastic boxed sets with all unit options on sprue. LatD weren't nearly so easy. My gut says it's about marketing more than sales.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
@Ozy: If done like BT, each upgrade kit requires a Guard kit.
If I were re-releasing LatD, it'd be:
Latd Wave 1 - core HQ & Troops
- metal characters
- Traitor Guard upgrade kit for Cadians
- Mutant Guard upgrade kit for Catachans
- plastic Cultists (like the new WFB models)
- Assault Transport using Chimera chassis
Latd Wave 2 - special Elites & Heavy
- Blood Pact upgrade conversion kit for Stormtroopers
- Daemon Engine using Defiler chassis
The heavy use of conversion kits and sprue swaps (e.g. Daemon Engine vs Soulgrinder vs Defiler) keeps cost down.
Something like this makes it easy for GW to track a goodly chunk of the sales.
Markable lesser Daemons, Markable CSM, Plague Zombies, etc. are kind of "bonus" sales that become semi-inferrable based on historical sales along with special stuff like the Daemon Engine so that the marginal additional profit advantage becomes clear.
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Post by: winterman
I think the fate of LatD is tied to the lack of a studio champion for it's creation into a real standalone product (or inclusion in some form in another army, ala Andy Chambers getting SoB to stay via WH codex).
I also think they really believe IG can sub for traitor guard and that is all LatD seems to be to them.
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Post by: BrookM
Problem has more to do with the background in my opinion. For the most part chaos has always been made up of chaos space marines and daemons, sometimes cultists. Sure the novels and more serious background are more bang on with the cultist and traitor forming the bulk of most chaos forces, but the mainstream background outside of BL seems to hint more towards chaos marines and daemons being the main force that attacks every world from within and without. Just look at the battle for Vogen for example.
I can see why GW has pushed the Lost and the Damned to the realms of Apocalypse, not a popular choice but it does make for easier army creation without requiring the studio to do much of the actual work.
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Post by: dietrich
Of course, we don't know what's in the new IG codex. If there are penal legions and/or conscripts, that might fill the 'great unwashed masses' that generally fills the cult-army ranks. Throw in Ogryns that are worth fielding, and you have Ogryns and/or big mutants and/or hybrid monstrosity. IG tanks = traitor tanks.
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Post by: gorgon
BrookM wrote:Problem has more to do with the background in my opinion. For the most part chaos has always been made up of chaos space marines and daemons, sometimes cultists. Sure the novels and more serious background are more bang on with the cultist and traitor forming the bulk of most chaos forces, but the mainstream background outside of BL seems to hint more towards chaos marines and daemons being the main force that attacks every world from within and without. Just look at the battle for Vogen for example.
Actually, Chaos became CSM-focused with the release of the 2nd ed. Codex: Chaos. Before that, they were more of a mishmash army. And even that Codex: Chaos had supplemental Daemonworld and Cultist army lists in the back. Chaos was definitely not originally all- CSM, all the time. Not that I'm saying things shouldn't be allowed to change. I'm just pointing out your "always" statement wasn't accurate.
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Post by: Archonate
Maybe GW is just tired of all their 'bad-guy' archetypes being affiliated with Chaos... I know I am. The concept of LatD just seems redundant to me. Don't we already have this army in one form of another?
I do like the idea of other traitor armies that aren't influenced by Chaos (Beanstealer cults, tau defectors, etc.) but, again, that also seems redundant with what we already have...
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Post by: Alpharius
Archonate wrote:Maybe GW is just tired of all their 'bad-guy' archetypes being affiliated with Chaos... I know I am. The concept of LatD just seems redundant to me. Don't we already have this army in one form of another?
I do like the idea of other traitor armies that aren't influenced by Chaos (Beanstealer cults, tau defectors, etc.) but, again, that also seems redundant with what we already have...
Um, no, we don't actually. At least, not anymore.
Which is the whole point, really, of a lot of the LatD conversation in this thread!
Combining JohnHwangDD and Wehrkind's ideas sound pretty good too!
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Archonate wrote:Maybe GW is just tired of all their 'bad-guy' archetypes being affiliated with Chaos... I know I am.
40k isn't a very subtle place. Simpler is better.
Archonate wrote:The concept of LatD just seems redundant to me.
Nomoreso than, say, Chaos Eldar who aren't Chaos...
Archonate wrote:Don't we already have this army in one form of another?
A zillion Internet sigatures say HELL, NO!
Archonate wrote:I do like the idea of other traitor armies that aren't influenced by Chaos (Beanstealer cults, tau defectors, etc.)
"Beanstealer cults"?
Are they led by a Special Character with Magic Beans with a Special Rule when you pull his finger?
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Post by: Balance
Archonate wrote:I do like the idea of other traitor armies that aren't influenced by Chaos (Beanstealer cults, tau defectors, etc.) but, again, that also seems redundant with what we already have...
Frakkin Beanstealers! They assaulted Tacobellia IV and the place was never the same afterward!
Ypur idea that Chaos amy be considered too prevalent may be valid. This is probably why someone earlier suggested making a generic 'renegade human' codex that could be Genestealer cults, LatD, or just anti-Imperial separatists.
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Post by: dietrich
Balance wrote:Ypur idea that Chaos amy be considered too prevalent may be valid. This is probably why someone earlier suggested making a generic 'renegade human' codex that could be Genestealer cults, LatD, or just anti-Imperial separatists.
That was me! Thank you, thank you very much. GW won't do a generic codex though, they'll only do one if they have a line of minis to go with it - which means it's a specific army. But, if they did something like Genestealer Cult, it'd be a great 'count as' army for LatD, a religious uprising of the populace against the heretical governor, etc.
Sadly, I don't think it'll ever happen.
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Post by: Platuan4th
dietrich wrote:Balance wrote:Ypur idea that Chaos amy be considered too prevalent may be valid. This is probably why someone earlier suggested making a generic 'renegade human' codex that could be Genestealer cults, LatD, or just anti-Imperial separatists.
That was me! Thank you, thank you very much. GW won't do a generic codex though, they'll only do one if they have a line of minis to go with it - which means it's a specific army. But, if they did something like Genestealer Cult, it'd be a great 'count as' army for LatD, a religious uprising of the populace against the heretical governor, etc.
Sadly, I don't think it'll ever happen.
I think a Codex: Cults would be a more likely approach. Make it more open for any sort of Cult/Uprising/Joining the Greater Good.
HQs would be a Rogue Psyker, a Fanatical Leader-esque character(like the Apostate from C: WH), and a generic Summoned/Alien/Techno Monster entry(for Patriarch/Daemon/Modified Ogryn bodyguard).
Elites would be corrupted Arbites/carapace bodyguard/alien mercs/benefactors, some sort of big mutant/Ogryn/Spawn squad, and rending and fleeting unit for 'Stealers(or other alien)/Daemons/Combat Servitors.
Troops would be PDF platoons and Mutant/Hybrid/Fanatical mobs.
Fast Attack would be some PDF Sentinels and other gear(Hellhounds?), PDF Armoured Fist squads, maybe Attack Dogs, maybe some sort of local made half-track with heavy weapons vehicle unit
Heavy Support would be PDF Tanks(Basilisk, LR, Demolisher), some sort of Walker(Daemon engine, Penitent Engine-esque creation), PDF Heavy Weapons platoon
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Post by: Archonate
JohnHwangDD wrote:Archonate wrote:The concept of LatD just seems redundant to me.
Nomoreso than, say, Chaos Eldar who aren't Chaos...
I'm speaking in terms of play style. And incidentally DE are probably the single most unique army in the game in that respect.
Archonate wrote:I do like the idea of other traitor armies that aren't influenced by Chaos (Beanstealer cults, tau defectors, etc.)
"Beanstealer cults"?
Are they led by a Special Character with Magic Beans with a Special Rule when you pull his finger?
I meant what I typed. And disrespecting Beanstealers makes the Jive Tyrant angry. 
Platuan4th wrote:I think a Codex: Cults would be a more likely approach. Make it more open for any sort of Cult/Uprising/Joining the Greater Good.
HQs would be a Rogue Psyker, a Fanatical Leader-esque character(like the Apostate from C:WH), and a generic Summoned/Alien/Techno Monster entry(for Patriarch/Daemon/Modified Ogryn bodyguard).
Elites would be corrupted Arbites/carapace bodyguard/alien mercs/benefactors, some sort of big mutant/Ogryn/Spawn squad, and rending and fleeting unit for 'Stealers(or other alien)/Daemons/Combat Servitors.
Troops would be PDF platoons and Mutant/Hybrid/Fanatical mobs.
Fast Attack would be some PDF Sentinels and other gear(Hellhounds?), PDF Armoured Fist squads, maybe Attack Dogs, maybe some sort of local made half-track with heavy weapons vehicle unit
Heavy Support would be PDF Tanks(Basilisk, LR, Demolisher), some sort of Walker(Daemon engine, Penitent Engine-esque creation), PDF Heavy Weapons platoon
See this would be great. A Codex which allows you to truly customize your own cult. And it would serve to cover many bases at once so GW doesn't have to crank out like 5 different ones and take up our precious annual new release slots.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Archonate wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:"Beanstealer cults"?
Are they led by a Special Character with Magic Beans with a Special Rule when you pull his finger?
I meant what I typed. And disrespecting Beanstealers makes the Jive Tyrant angry.
Thanks, I needed that!
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Post by: Starfarer
Well, I guess I'll throw my two cents in on LaTD before this thread gets locked for going wildly off topic.
I see the points for both sides and agree with each to a certain extent. For the the pros of such a force it would really allow a large variety of other sub-armies to be fielded officially. Ad Mech, for one, could probably be made quite easily and others with a little imagination, I'm sure.
That said, I do see why they haven't been made. They don't fill a specific role as far as an army type goes. They wouldn't really have a set model range as conversions, at least for me, is a big part of the appeal of LaTD. So, as stated earlier in the thread they are not a "beginner friendly" army. Then there's the guaranteed criticism GW would take for releasing this army before updating other, more mainstream armies got codex and model updates.
Now I would love to see LaTD, don't get me wrong. In fact, I just ordered a ton of stuff the other day to start a LaTD army using the Daemon Codex as the template. But I completely understand why they aren't a big priority, if it's something that's even being discussed as an option by GW at all.
I think a "Dogs of War" Codex would be a cool idea and possibly more marketable than a LaTD codex, while still allowing it to be used for LatD. But again, it's probably not a priority. They said no new armies until all others get updates and I really hope they stick to that as much as I'd personally love something new. There's a lot of current players who need love first, namely Dark Eldar.
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Post by: Crazy_Carnifex
Heck, LaTD would just need an "official" ruleset in WD, and then the rest could be converted.
Stoked for Space Hulk!
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