Assume that I use the mind war power on an upgrade character in a mob of boyz. Do you use the unmodified leadership of the model, or does their mob rule replace that leadership value? Would it be any different for an IC? I was playing against an Ork player in the last game I played, and when I used my mind war on one of his models, he said his leadership value was 12. Is this a correct interpretation of the Ork rules? I don't have codices for armies I don't play, so I have to trust the player in these instances.

Yes it is incorrect as no Stat Value except Attacks can be above 10.

BRB pg. 6 for Stae Max and pg. 37 for the exception to attacks.

Marius Xerxes wrote:Yes it is incorrect as no Stat Value except Attacks can be above 10.

BRB pg. 6 for Stae Max and pg. 37 for the exception to attacks.

I figured that was the case but I didn't want to argue it. The leauge I'm playing in docks me so many points for taking Eldrad and wraithlords that I wasn't going to win the game even if I won the game. Good to know others agree with my point of view on it though.

He's right in that he can use the number of models in the unit instead of his normal Ld, but wrong in that this is capped at 10 so he could never be Ld12.

Are you sure? Isn't a mindwar attack against the base LD of the model.

For example an IG officer nearby wouldn't work for mindwar against a single IG target would it?

I think this deserves to be checked again.

Augustus wrote:Are you sure? Isn't a mindwar attack against the base LD of the model.

For example an IG officer nearby wouldn't work for mindwar against a single IG target would it?

I think this deserves to be checked again.

I think that the general consensus is that every single ork in a mob can substitute his Ld with the number of models in the unit due to the Mob Rule! (p.31 Ork Codex). Otherwise the reminder that a Weirdboy can do this (p.37 Ork Codex) would not make sense.
Max Ld gained from the Mob Rule! is still capped at 10 as clarified in the Ork FAQ.

p 28 Eldar dex - The Eldar player may choose any unengaged model within 18" of the Farseer and within LOS (modles in vehicles can't be target) Both players roll a d6 and add the Ld of their respective models. FOr each point the Farseer wins by the target loses a wound, with no armour saves allowed.

When reading this it says d6+Ld, it says nothing against modified Ld values. Therefore I understand that the Mob Rule, and other substitue Ld values (like DA Company Master) would be allowed against Mind War.

That said the Farseer still has a very good chance at killing the nob, or other target becuase it all is up to the dice at that point.

Casper wrote:p 28 Eldar dex - The Eldar player may choose any unengaged model within 18" of the Farseer and within LOS (modles in vehicles can't be target) Both players roll a d6 and add the Ld of their respective models. FOr each point the Farseer wins by the target loses a wound, with no armour saves allowed.

When reading this it says d6+Ld, it says nothing against modified Ld values. Therefore I understand that the Mob Rule, and other substitue Ld values (like DA Company Master) would be allowed against Mind War.

"the Ld of their respective models"

By telling you to use the model's Ld, it does say something against another model's Ld. That is, the rule is telling you not to use your DA Company Master's Ld. Mob Rule applies, but for its own reasons. In a "normal" situation, Mind War is used with the model's leadership even if Ld tests are taken based on the Ld of some other model.

Casper wrote:That said the Farseer still has a very good chance at killing the nob, or other target becuase it all is up to the dice at that point.

As nobs got 2 wound it's only 28% (5/18) chance to kill it with Mind War if it has Ld 10. Less if it got cover.
Casting Doom or Guide would be preferable in almost all situations.

deadlygopher wrote:"the Ld of their respective models"

The target models LD has to be used, Mob Rule, DA, IG or otherwise.

This has been discussed to death before. There was an even split in opinion.

G

If you look at the orks psychics powers & rules it mentions how an ork weird boys LD is affected by the Mob Up rule in reguards to psychic powers so I would have then say that this is true for the ork pain boys aswell as there is no reason why it should be different.

I was addament it used the base LD7 but after reading the ork rules I cudnt argue.

Razerous wrote:If you look at the orks psychics powers & rules it mentions how an ork weird boys LD is affected by the Mob Up rule in reguards to psychic powers so I would have then say that this is true for the ork pain boys aswell as there is no reason why it should be different.

I was addament it used the base LD7 but after reading the ork rules I cudnt argue.

Can you make that analogy? You're talking about two different things. One is a psychic test ( I'm assuming Weirdboyz use the same test, again, I don't have the other codices) and the other is roll a die and add it to your LD stat ( Which can't go over 10). Two very different things.

Psychic tests require the psyker to pass a leadership test. Ork leadership is either the model's base stat or how many models are in the mob (max 10). Because a Weirdboy has the Mob Rule SR and he is part of a 12+ mob, his leadership value is 10 with the Fearless SR. This is unlike situations that specify the opposite, such as a Sanctioned Psyker using the Heroic Senior Officer's leadership value to pass psychic tests. Based on this example, it is clear that Mob Rule alters the base stat of the model.

The point is : Is that the base LD stat of orks is affected by its mob-up rules for pretty much everything. This is protrayed by the fact it effects thier own ability to cast psyhic powers - its a direct link between orky psyhic powers & relavent rules & the eldar psyhic power mind war.

Um - what sourclams said.

The clear distinction to note is that Mob Rule is a rule in its own category. It can't be compared to "Leadership Bubble" effects like the Dark Angel chapter master or Imperial Guard Junior/Senior officers or any other unit that allows a model to use their leadership value instead of their own; a 30 strong Boyz mob is not using some other model's influence, they become leadership 10 because the game rules don't allow them to be leadership 30.

Yes one must read the wording of the separate Codeci to understand why this is different.

pg. 36 of the DA Codex says that Rites of Battle works like this. "If a Company Master is on the table then all other Dark Angels units may use his Leadership for Morale, Pinning or Leadership tests, but not Psychic Tests."

pg. 85 of the Space Marine Codex says Rites of Battle is "If Sicarius is on the table, all other Space Marine units can use his Leadership for any Morale or Pinning Tests."

pg. 35 of the IG Codex says "Any number of squads may use the Leadership of the HQ's Officer for a single Morale or Leadership test per turn rather then the usual limit of one allowed with a Vox-caster."

pg. 36 of the IG Codex says "If a Command HQ or Command Section has a vox-caster, then one squad per turn that also has a vox-caster may use the Leadership value of the Officer, no matter where they are located on the battlefield (ie, they don't have to be within 12" of the Officer as would normally be the case). You choose to use the vox-caster at any time eg, when an eligible squad is about to take a Leadership test, even if the Command unit is in reserve)."

pg. 39 of the IG Codex says "Any Imperial Guard unit within 12" of the Officer may use his Leadership when taking Morale and Leadership tests as long as he isnt in close combat, falling back or pinned."

pg. 31 of the Ork Codex says about Mob Rule "Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the Fearless special rule." The Orc FAQ then goes on to explain that this LD value is maxed at 10.

pg. 8 of the BRB say that a Leadership Test is "In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2D6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier).

pg. 50 of the BRB says a Psychic test is "To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic Test, which is a normal Leadership Test. Note this must always be made on the psyker's own Leadership value. Even where Leadership tests would normally be taken on the value of another model, tests for using psychic powers are always taken on the psyker's own Leadership."

With those rules pointed out, Space Marines of all flavors do not get to the the Leadership of their Captain or Sicarius because the test for Mind War it not a Leadership Test as defined in the BRB, nor is it a Morale or Pinning test. Imperial Guard also do not get the benifit of their Commanders Leadership as Mind War is not a Morale or Leadership test as defined in the BRB.

However with the Ork Codex is clearly states that the actual stat line is (at players discretion) substituted for the number of models in the squad, max at 10 (per FAQ). Evidence for this working exactly this way is provided by the Ork Wierdboy getting to use the substituted LD value for Psychic Tests as it literally becomes his stat line. If it were not his state line, then the section on Psychic Tests would not be being adhered to as having been made on the models own Leadership as is required.

With the evidence above, I really don't see how anyone can reasonably contest how it functions in relation to the above listed Forces.

Marius Xerxes wrote:Yes one must read the wording of the separate Codeci to understand why this is different.

pg. 36 of the DA Codex says that Rites of Battle works like this. "If a Company Master is on the table then all other Dark Angels units may use his Leadership for Morale, Pinning or Leadership tests, but not Psychic Tests."

pg. 85 of the Space Marine Codex says Rites of Battle is "If Sicarius is on the table, all other Space Marine units can use his Leadership for any Morale or Pinning Tests."

pg. 35 of the IG Codex says "Any number of squads may use the Leadership of the HQ's Officer for a single Morale or Leadership test per turn rather then the usual limit of one allowed with a Vox-caster."

pg. 36 of the IG Codex says "If a Command HQ or Command Section has a vox-caster, then one squad per turn that also has a vox-caster may use the Leadership value of the Officer, no matter where they are located on the battlefield (ie, they don't have to be within 12" of the Officer as would normally be the case). You choose to use the vox-caster at any time eg, when an eligible squad is about to take a Leadership test, even if the Command unit is in reserve)."

pg. 39 of the IG Codex says "Any Imperial Guard unit within 12" of the Officer may use his Leadership when taking Morale and Leadership tests as long as he isnt in close combat, falling back or pinned."

pg. 31 of the Ork Codex says about Mob Rule "Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the Fearless special rule." The Orc FAQ then goes on to explain that this LD value is maxed at 10.

pg. 8 of the BRB say that a Leadership Test is "In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2D6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier).

pg. 50 of the BRB says a Psychic test is "To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic Test, which is a normal Leadership Test. Note this must always be made on the psyker's own Leadership value. Even where Leadership tests would normally be taken on the value of another model, tests for using psychic powers are always taken on the psyker's own Leadership."

With those rules pointed out, Space Marines of all flavors do not get to the the Leadership of their Captain or Sicarius because the test for Mind War it not a Leadership Test as defined in the BRB, nor is it a Morale or Pinning test. Imperial Guard also do not get the benifit of their Commanders Leadership as Mind War is not a Morale or Leadership test as defined in the BRB.

However with the Ork Codex is clearly states that the actual stat line is (at players discretion) substituted for the number of models in the squad, max at 10 (per FAQ). Evidence for this working exactly this way is provided by the Ork Wierdboy getting to use the substituted LD value for Psychic Tests as it literally becomes his stat line. If it were not his state line, then the section on Psychic Tests would not be being adhered to as having been made on the models own Leadership as is required.

With the evidence above, I really don't see how anyone can reasonably contest how it functions in relation to the above listed Forces.

Alright, so the target would count as 10, because he *does* get to use the mob rule, as it replaces the stat, but all stats, as I know is stated in BGB, max at 10. Orks with mobs of 11 or more are not LD 11, they count as fearless, which has nothing to do with mind war. Correct?

Marius Xerxes wrote:...pg. 31 of the Ork Codex says.. "Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value...

However with the Ork Codex is clearly states that the actual stat line is (at players discretion) substituted for the number of models in the squad, max at 10 (per FAQ).

That's not what it says, that's a superfelous rewording you made up leaving out "Normal Leadership". From the quote above, they can substitute the number of orks in their mob for their normal leadership value.

Marius Xerxes wrote:Evidence for this working exactly this way is provided by the Ork Wierdboy getting to use the substituted LD value for Psychic Tests as it literally becomes his stat line.

That is a completely unrelated situation, for another unit, with a different ability, that is expressly stated. This is a meaningless intent argument.

Marius Xerxes wrote:With the evidence above, I really don't see how anyone can reasonably contest how it functions in relation to the above listed Forces.

Of course not, because you are leaving out the distinction between normal and substituted leadership in the Ork Rules.

Not basing the argument on a comparisson to any of the other morale substitution issues:

Casper wrote:p 28 Eldar dex - The Eldar player may choose any unengaged model within 18" of the Farseer and within LOS (models in vehicles can't be target) Both players roll a d6 and add the Ld of their respective models.

The leadership of the respective models, normal leadership, not substituted value. The normal leadership of an Ork is still the base stat, not the substituted one, by RAW above.

The normal leadership of an Ork is determined by the number of models in his unit. The "statline" in the Codex isn't the Ork's leadership, that's the lowest number that his leadership can ever achieve. If I have an Ork unit that consists of 15 models, and you ask me for my base leadership, the correct answer is "Fearless."

It says so in my Codex. The Eldar codex doesn't have a special rule that says, "This weapon negates all other codex modifiers."

So the question is...

When you Mindwar an ork who is in a unit consisting of 11+ models, are they immune because they're fearless, or do they use Leadership 10 and have to take one anyway?

They take one at Ld10 if they are in a mob numbering ten or more. Fearless is not relevant to Mind War because nothing that Mind War does can be countered by the Fearless USR.

Fair enough, and reasonable.

The only unreasonable part is where people are posting in here somehow thinking that the general rule for a weapon somehow lets them choose to negate rules that apply to other races.

Dashofpepper wrote:Fair enough, and reasonable.

The only unreasonable part is where...

...people try to justify not using the normal leadership on an obviously written special case rule.

sourclams wrote:They take one at Ld10 if they are in a mob numbering ten or more. Fearless is not relevant to Mind War because nothing that Mind War does can be countered by the Fearless USR.

Agreed!

Augustus wrote:

Marius Xerxes wrote:...pg. 31 of the Ork Codex says.. "Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value...

However with the Ork Codex is clearly states that the actual stat line is (at players discretion) substituted for the number of models in the squad, max at 10 (per FAQ).

That's not what it says, that's a superfelous rewording you made up leaving out "Normal Leadership". From the quote above, they can substitute the number of orks in their mob for their normal leadership value.

Can you please show me how I re-worded this? I took it directly from my codex, and as shown in my original post, and in the quote of it from your post.. I clearly said "normal Leadership" in the sentence.

I mean no disrespect, but perhaps you should read more thoroughly before making attacks and claiming someone is changing the wording they are quoting from a codex.

Augustus wrote: That is a completely unrelated situation, for another unit, with a different ability, that is expressly stated. This is a meaningless intent argument.

How? They get the leadership benifit due to the Mob Rule that gives them up to LD 10. Is this not the same Mob Rule everyone in the Codex gets? Do Psychic Powers not also say, like Mind War, that its the LD value from their own Leadership and not the value granted by others? Seems rather comparable to me.

Augustus wrote:Of course not, because you are leaving out the distinction between normal and substituted leadership in the Ork Rules.

I left nothing out. I quoted 100% accuratly.

pg. 31 of the Ork Codex says.. "Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value...

Marius Xerxes wrote:However with the Ork Codex is clearly states that the actual stat line is (at players discretion) substituted for the number of models in the squad, max at 10 (per FAQ).

Augustus wrote:That's not what it says, that's a superfelous rewording you made up leaving out "Normal Leadership"...

Marius Xerxes wrote:Can you please show me how I re-worded this? I took it directly from my codex, and as shown in my original post, and in the quote of it from your post.. I clearly said "normal Leadership" in the sentence.

Certainly, Quote 1 of yours, the summation of the Ork rule in the first line, does not say "normal leadership". This is the basis of my case, there is a "substituted" and a "normal" leadership.

I'm not sure why the word "always" is being glossed over. "Always" means "always," not "sometimes." No exceptions. Especially not if the so-called exception doesn't specify itself AS an exception.

Augustus wrote:pg. 31 of the Ork Codex says.. "Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value...

Marius Xerxes wrote:However with the Ork Codex is clearly states that the actual stat line is (at players discretion) substituted for the number of models in the squad, max at 10 (per FAQ).

Augustus wrote:That's not what it says, that's a superfelous rewording you made up leaving out "Normal Leadership"...

Marius Xerxes wrote:Can you please show me how I re-worded this? I took it directly from my codex, and as shown in my original post, and in the quote of it from your post.. I clearly said "normal Leadership" in the sentence.

Certainly, Quote 1 of yours, the summation of the Ork rule in the first line, does not say "normal leadership". This is the basis of my case, there is a "substituted" and a "normal" leadership.

And thats not the part in my post listed in quotations from the Ork Codex, is it?

I never claimed my later statement to be quoted from the Ork Codex, but merly how I interpreted said quote and rule from the codex. The fact is, as another pointed out an Orks "normal leadership" is in fact allowed to be substituted for the number of models in the squad, up to a max of 10 as per later detailed in the Ork FAQ.

My further evidence, as thus far not refuted by you when I re-stated its comparability, was how the Weirdboys work. Psychic Tests and Mind War both clearly say to use the models own Leadership when rolling for their respective tests. Now if a Weirdboy can use the Leadership he is given due to Mob Rule (RAW), then one can only further to say that due to the wording in the Ork Codex I have quoted several times, that his statline is actually showing LD 10. Otherwise they would be breaking the rules for Psychic Tests. Since Psychic Tests and Mind War both have the same qualifications, how would they count as true LD 10 in one case, but not another for the purposes of the test?

sour clams has stated the obvious most succintly. If only this was always the case here in YMDC. Hats off.

G

Marius Xerxes wrote:I never claimed my later statement to be quoted from the Ork Codex, but merly how I interpreted said quote and rule from the codex.

I understand that, and your interpretation is wrong.

Marius Xerxes wrote:My further evidence, as thus far not refuted by you when I re-stated its comparability, was how the Weirdboys work.

How weird boys work has no bearing on Orks being the target of a mindwar, apples and oranges. So it is irrelevant. Furthermore, what you are presenting that it says, "the wierdboy can use the mob rule for LD 10 psychic checks", is actually another misquote. Here is the quote.

"Remember that a Weirdboy's Leadership is affected by the Mob Rule."

It actually never even says to use that leadership for Psychic tests (a separate issue), it's not in the black and white Marius. Furthermore, it says nothing about other Orks. That's really why it is unrelated, an irrelevant part of your case.

Some fresh material.

Another poster hit on a concept I was wondering about on my ride home today in the "always" language of the mob rule that made me think about this issue further. Could this be a case of the immovable object and the unstoppable force, as in "always substitute LD" from the mob rule and "use models leadership +D6" in the Eldar dex. I was honestly thinking about the case and the always language. Which rule would take precedence? How could an Ork Model always substitute his leadership with the number of Orks in the Mob while simultaneously using his leadership of 7?

The clear answer came when I reviewed the language in both codices tonight. From the Ork dex:

P 31 "Ork Mobs may always choose to substitute the the number of Orks in their Mobs for their normal Leadership value."

and the Eldar Rule:

P 28 Mind War: "Both Players Roll a D6 and ad the leadership of their respective models."

The Ork rule applies to Mobs, the Mindwar rule to Models! For the LD to work versus Mindwar in the example in question the Mob rule would have to say a model "may always substitute the number of Orks..." and it clearly doesn't. The Mob is not making the test, the Ork is making the test, at LD 7.

Mobs are made up of models

lol this is pretty stright forward.

If you were using mindwar to target an orky weird boy there would be no doubt in my mind that if there were 8-10+ orks, that weird boy would have a LD score of 8-10.

Like sourclams said its an instrinsic rule to each & each ork.

Through inferance we can apply the weird boys case to any ork with the Mob rule.

The reason why it is mentioned the way it is - the LD value if affected by the mob up rule - is because its that simple. It affects thier LD value. For everything.

The reason why it says 'remember...' is because its already discussed the workings of the Mob Up rule before. Thats why it doesnt mention it for every other ork in the codex because its not nessicary besides to give the weird boy some clarification.

Anyways.. when the ork player is asked what thier orks LD is.. there person can quite correctly say ' I choose to substitute thier LD value for this X"

What is the leadership value of thier respective models? Check that model? What does that MODEL have.. it has the Mob rule. Read the mob rule. Use the mob rule.

Augustus wrote:I understand that, and your interpretation is wrong.

Then by all means, prove me wrong beyond all reasonable argument. Step, for Step, as well with the majority of others in this post who agree that Mob Rule affects the LD of a model being affected by Mind War.

Augustus wrote:How weird boys work has no bearing on Orks being the target of a mindwar, apples and oranges. So it is irrelevant. Furthermore, what you are presenting that it says, "the wierdboy can use the mob rule for LD 10 psychic checks", is actually another misquote. Here is the quote.

"Remember that a Weirdboy's Leadership is affected by the Mob Rule."

Again you are saying im quoting a rule when im not, I am giving my interpretation. My presentation of a Weirdboy testing on LD 10 is not a statement of always having LD 10, but the assumption there are 10+ models in the unit. There is a difference I think you would see and not attack with no truth behind you own accusation.

Further, why in the section saying that they must take a Psychic Test would the author remind you that the models LD is affected by Mob Rule if it actually had no bearing on said Psychic Test itself? Mob Rule and the Weirdboys Leadership Value thus affected because of said rule is accepted as the RAW way to play.

How Wierdboys work with Psychic Tests and how Mind War effects other Orks is certainly relevant in regard to how Mob Rule functions to effect both tests. When the rules for Psychic Tests and Mind War are functionally the same game mechanic, in terms of determining the affected models LD value for said tests. Show me how they are functionally different on that level and I will agree it then has no bearing. If Mob Rule has one effect on a functionally equivalent game mechanic, then how is it not the same effect across the board?

EDIT: I got caught typing this then busy at work. What the above poster said is a good way of explaining it as well.

Augustus wrote:
I understand that, and your interpretation is wrong.

Based on reading Mob Rule and how the codex explicitly references Models possessing the leadership of the number of the Mob, I'd say your interpretation is incorrect.

How weird boys work has no bearing on Orks being the target of a mindwar, apples and oranges.

This would make sense, except:

"Remember that a Weirdboy's Leadership is affected by the Mob Rule."

Based on this quote, it is clear and obvious that individual models possess the leadership value of the mob. This is not an 'exception' rule (as in, Weirdboyz may substitute mob leadership for Psychic Tests), it's a clarification (paraphrase: "do not forget that Mob Rule increases base leadership"). This is clearly unlike any other situation (Sanctioned Psyker/Officer Ld Bubble). Again, it requires a total reading and understanding of leadership substitution, individual leadership values and psychic tests, and Ork Codex rules to reach this conclusion. You can't take it in a vacuum because not only do you come up with what in my opinion is a less than total understanding of the rule, you also create impossible situations like you yourself describe.

It actually never even says to use that leadership for Psychic tests (a separate issue), it's not in the black and white Marius. Furthermore, it says nothing about other Orks. That's really why it is unrelated, an irrelevant part of your case.

You can't gloss over one distinction (Weirdboyz/Mob Rule) and then split hairs over another (Ork Model/Mind War). Based on your interpretation, I could choose to use my Mob's base LD7 if I had a mob of 16 boyz that took 4 shooting casualties from a unit of Khorne Berzerkers preparing to assault in order to fall back out of the Danger Zone. Then I could claim my Fearless USR for being in a big Mob in order to regroup and countercharge on my turn. Obviously this is incorrect, due to 'Always' within Mob Rule. There is no case of substitution, and this is why individual Ork models are Ld10.

Another poster hit on a concept I was wondering about on my ride home today in the "always" language of the mob rule that made me think about this issue further. Could this be a case of the immovable object and the unstoppable force, as in "always substitute LD" from the mob rule and "use models leadership +D6" in the Eldar dex.

There is no reason that you can't read this as "Eldar inflicts Mind War on Ork Model that is Ld 10 due to Mob Rule". This only conflicts if you base Mob Rule's effects on Leadership Bubble types, which operate completely differently from Mob Rule. Again, you only create the "impossible situation" you describe if you ignore parts of the rules.

How weird boys work has no bearing on Orks being the target of a mindwar, apples and oranges.

sourclams wrote:This would make sense, except:

"Remember that a Weirdboy's Leadership is affected by the Mob Rule."[/i]

Based on this quote, it is clear and obvious that individual models possess the leadership value of the mob.

Razerous wrote:Mobs are made up of models lol this is pretty stright forward.

Except thats not what it says in either rule?

...


LOL

the exact wording on page 31 that applies to this reads:

"Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value."

This is pretty straight forward. RAW is that you replace their normal Leadership value for the number of orks in the mob.

The point is the value. This *is* the characteristic test that mind war tests against. And Mob rule affects the value.

This is cut and dry in my eyes. Mob rule does affect individual leadership because their is *no* characteristics for *mobs or units* only for models (pg. 6 BGB, second paragraph).

This is how I read it.

It's ok to be wrong. RAW actually says replace the mob's leadership value, not the models.

MOB != Model

Mindwar Attack != Wierdboy Psychic check

Since RAW your argument hinges on the definition of 'Mob', please define 'Mob' for me as a game term in the Ork Codex.

Since yours hinges on weirdboy psychic checks please define how that applies to ork boys.

Augustus wrote:It's ok to be wrong. RAW actually says replace the mob's leadership value, not the models.

MOB != Model

Mindwar Attack != Wierdboy Psychic check

Did you read page 6 of the RB? And page 8 under the heading of "LEADERSHIP TESTS"? Both of these say to use the *Models* LD value against the test, and if their is a *model* with a higher LD value in a unit you would test against *his* LD value.

Again, Mobs and Units (multiple models) do **not** have a LD characteristic. What you are testing against is actually the highest LD value found in that Mob or unit during **all** LD tests per pages 6 and 8.

So, Mob Rule raises the Mobs (individual LD values of the orks) to the number of orks found in the Mob. Again, I can understand the confusion, this has been a misconceived idea since 4rd edition.

Augustus wrote:Since yours hinges on weirdboy psychic checks please define how that applies to ork boys.

I have already admitted that I resort to a RAI inference based on several different inputs. Since yours is a pure RAW argument, please define Ork Mob as it's the 'Orange' that your construction is allowed to dismiss.

Augustus wrote:From the Ork dex:

P 31 "Ork Mobs may always choose to substitute the the number of Orks in their Mobs for their normal Leadership value."

and the Eldar Rule:

P 28 Mind War: "Both Players Roll a D6 and ad the leadership of their respective models."

The Ork rule applies to Mobs, the Mindwar rule to Models! For the LD to work versus Mindwar in the example in question the Mob rule would have to say a model "may always substitute the number of Orks..." and it clearly doesn't. The Mob is not making the test, the Ork is making the test, at LD 7.

This is exactly what I wanted to post. Mobs aren't models. Yes, multiple models form a mob. No, the rules in the Ork codex do NOT state that models are individually granted the substitute leadership value. The mob is granted the substitute leadership value. For that reason, mobs (a.k.a. units) with the 'Mob Rule!' special rule can use the substitute leadership value in situations regarding the unit as a whole. Mind War clearly states to only affect a model, therefore targets with the 'Mob Rule!' special rule still use their normal leadership value.

Augustus has a point. Mobs are not models, mobs are generally considered to be groups of models. Still true is the fact that a mindwar attack is not a psychic check, nor is it a Ld check nor is it comparable to anything else, really.

Nonetheless, Augustus, a well-accepted precept of rules interpretation is to read for context, and make reasonable inferences where appropriate. It's no secret that GW rules are lacking for precision, so we read for context to fill in inconsistencies. There's no need to go into concept of logical positivism here. Suffice it to say that a degree of context is necessary for any interpretive problem.

Now, the Ork FAQ tells us that Mob Rule allows a weirdboy to use mob rule for psychic checks. Here we have a precedential interpretation, more recent than the codex, that tells us that individual models within a mob benefit from the mob rule. This FAQ ruling appears inconsistent with mob rule, because a weirdboy in a mob is not a mob himself. Nonetheless, it's an official interpretation from GW. It is, by definition, correct.

The inference that most people make from this FAQ interpretation is that because one type of model, a weirdboy, benefits from mob rule to affect his own Ld, and because a weirdboy model is not qualitatively different in relevant respects to other types of ork models, that other types of ork models may also use mob rule to benefit their individual Ld values.

Thus, as against mind war, an ork may use mob rule.

Airmaniac wrote:

Augustus wrote:From the Ork dex:

P 31 "Ork Mobs may always choose to substitute the the number of Orks in their Mobs for their normal Leadership value."

and the Eldar Rule:

P 28 Mind War: "Both Players Roll a D6 and ad the leadership of their respective models."

The Ork rule applies to Mobs, the Mindwar rule to Models! For the LD to work versus Mindwar in the example in question the Mob rule would have to say a model "may always substitute the number of Orks..." and it clearly doesn't. The Mob is not making the test, the Ork is making the test, at LD 7.

This is exactly what I wanted to post. Mobs aren't models. Yes, multiple models form a mob. No, the rules in the Ork codex do NOT state that models are individually granted the substitute leadership value. The mob is granted the substitute leadership value. For that reason, mobs (a.k.a. units) with the 'Mob Rule!' special rule can use the substitute leadership value in situations regarding the unit as a whole. Mind War clearly states to only affect a model, therefore targets with the 'Mob Rule!' special rule still use their normal leadership value.

But don't you see, you are inventing your own rule or even re-writing what is written in the Ork Codex. No where in the BGB, does it state anywhere that a "unit" has a LD value or characteristic, and in fact specifically state that all tests are made against a "model's" characteristic. The idea of a *unit LD value* is an invented one.

Please, if you are certain of this ideal, list a page reference that says a unit posses a LD value or characteristic. I have currently found none. Remember that *units* do in fact take the LD test, but it is the *model* with the highest LD value that the test is taken against. Not the *unit*. Again, this is a misconception since 4th ed. In fact, only ever do *models* have characteristics and have to take characteristic tests (not units). As in Mind war. And the Mob rule does in fact raise the LD *value* of the mob (i.e. every model in the mob) This *is* why mob rule does in fact affect the Weird boy (this is a great example) because his actual LD value is indeed changed due to the Mob rule.

I can not stress this enough, to understand fully, please read pages 6 - 8 of the RB especially any part that talks about taking tests and defiantly the "LEADERSHIP TESTS" subject found on page 8.

padixon wrote:...inventing your own rule or even re-writing what is written in the Ork Codex. No where in the BGB, does it state anywhere that a "unit" has a LD value or characteristic, and in fact specifically state that all tests are made against a "model's" characteristic. The idea of a *unit LD value* is an invented one.

Please, if you are certain of this ideal, list a page reference that says a unit posses a LD value or characteristic...

Codex rules take precedence, in specific situations. Its not my rule, the Ork dex says "mobs" may substitute their leedership.

If Mobs was undefined in the BGB ork codex, well, wouldn't that mean that by RAW the Mob rule wouldn't do anything?

Reading with context, I would say "Mobs" is probably a synonym for unit, or squad, but I don't have the Ork dex with me to see if there is any language or precedent for even that.

Airmaniac wrote:

Augustus wrote:From the Ork dex:

P 31 "Ork Mobs may always choose to substitute the the number of Orks in their Mobs for their normal Leadership value."

and the Eldar Rule:

P 28 Mind War: "Both Players Roll a D6 and ad the leadership of their respective models."

The Ork rule applies to Mobs, the Mindwar rule to Models! For the LD to work versus Mindwar in the example in question the Mob rule would have to say a model "may always substitute the number of Orks..." and it clearly doesn't. The Mob is not making the test, the Ork is making the test, at LD 7.

This is exactly what I wanted to post. Mobs aren't models. ..

Thanks! Glad to not be the only one!

Augustus wrote:Codex rules take precedence, in specific situations. Its not my rule, the Ork dex says "mobs" may substitute their leedership.

If Mobs was undefined in the BGB ork codex, well, wouldn't that mean that by RAW the Mob rule wouldn't do anything?

Reading with context, I would say "Mobs" is probably a synonym for unit, or squad, but I don't have the Ork dex with me to see if there is any language or precedent for even that.

Just pointing out that you can't argue that codex rules simultaneously take precedence and do nothing in the same breath.

You have to make inferences with Mob Rule because nobody knows what a Mob is. You can say that the conclusion drawn in comparison to the Weirdboy rules clarification is not valid, but you cannot say that Mob equals unit or squad because there's no literal rules that support your jump.

No where in the description for mind war does it say to use a model's "base" or "unmodified" leadership value. So one would assume any affects that boost leadership either for a single model or an entire unit and don't themselves have a clause in them would be applicable vs. mind war.

Well then, it's not the models LD is it?

sourclams wrote:You have to make inferences with Mob Rule because...

...otherwise you have no case.

sourclams wrote:Just pointing out that you can't argue that codex rules simultaneously take precedence and do nothing in the same breath.

The leadership of the Mob is the number of Orks, the leadership of the model is 7. Mindwar targets the model. All the codex rules are satisfied.

Can you point me at the statline for a Mob?

And that's why you have to make inferences.

sourclams wrote:Can you point me at the statline for a Mob?

No, I can't. Of course.

sourclams wrote:And that's why you have to make inferences.

Or you could play it the way I outlined.

Perhaps this has now become what's the stronger case?

The weirdboy precedent for LD, or Mob = squad != model.

I'm inclined to the latter.

And obviously more of us are not. This doesn't make you more right or more wrong. You play the game in a way that, based on nebulous rules, adheres to your judgment call.

Augustus5 wrote:No where in the description for mind war does it say to use a model's "base" or "unmodified" leadership value. So one would assume any affects that boost leadership either for a single model or an entire unit and don't themselves have a clause in them would be applicable vs. mind war.

An Ork in a mob is Ld7(10). It's the only way to conceptualize it since there is no such thing as a "Mob". The only way for it to be different is if there was some special rule defining what a "Mob" was, and an explicit statline.

Before I start, I don't like the way mob rule is writen but i do think that they should get a LD boost. I'm not a 100% on this, and i'm more or less on the fence for all of this.

-A Mob of Orks is in most case a squad or unit.
-Mind war effects the model.
-Most Ork models are LD 7.
So ... clear cut easy to understand? No we're talking about a GW rule.
-IC with 'Mob Rule' are a single model. In this case Mob = Model. This would explain the weird boyz LD test.

Since units don't have a leadership value, does that mean mobs of orks that are 10 models have Leadership 7? I mean, that seems to be the argument of the 'against camp'. The mob doesn't have 11+, so it is not Fearless.

If you're going to argue that the nob doesn't have Ld10, then I think you have to argue that below 11 models, the unit reverts to Ld 7.

And if any model in the unit would get a boost to leadership due to the number of boyz, it would be - oh, I don't know - the unit leader - you know, the Nob with the power klaw and bosspole that duffs any uppity boyz and isn't afraid to smash one in the head to restore a little discaplain.

This is a pointless arguement that will never end. It's like the arguement that Space Wolves don't have access to Land Raider Redeemers because it's not classified as a 'variant', so you don't know what they mean when they say '...and all variants.' Some people are going to play this way. Some people won't. Some will call the judge over for a ruling or be content to d6 the answer.

If GW wrote good rules and published good FAQs, we'd have an answer. GW doesn't write good rules, so we're left to make some interpretations. Be reasonable, play fair, and always take the least advantageous position to you - unless your opponent says, 'nah, that's silly, play it this way.'

BRB pg. 8. LEADERSHIP TESTS "Tests made against the Leadership characteristic (like Morale checks) are differant from other tests. In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2D6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier). If the result is equal to or less then the model's Leadership, the test is passed.

If a unit includeing models with differant Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Ld value"

Emphasis mine.

This is an important wording as its clearly saying a models Leadership Value is what the test is made against, not a Units or Mob. Just as importantly it is saying that the model with the highest Ld value is the value you use to roll against. But because all models in the unit have an identical Ld value due to Mob Rule, there is no need to make such distinction.

How is this important to the argument? Again I go back to Psychic Tests. A Psychic Test "is a normal Leadership test" that "must always be made on the psyker's own Leadership value".

In the case of a Ork Weirdboy, what rule is making that model count as having a differant Ld value then what is printed in the Codex? The answer is Mob Rule. The same Mob Rule that evey model in a squad of Boys has. Now, if Mob Rule changes that actual Ld value of a individual model (the Weirdboy) how is it not on the same token changing the actual Ld value of every other model in said squad of Boys?

Because it says so in the section on Weirdboy's? No. All it says is to remember that a Weirdboy has the Special Rule, Mob Rule when making your Ld test to use a Psychic Power. If a Psychic Test is always made "on the psykers own Leadershp value" and the psyker in this case is a single model in the Mob, and not the Mob itself, clearly they are saying every model in a Mob has said Ld value derived from Mob Rule. Otherwise the psyker would not be using his "own Leadership value" as required by the BRB, but the Mobs, as you define it. The section of Weirdboys no where states you can or are breaking this rule from the BRB. Without premission to break or override a Rule, you simply cannot do it, nor base any argument on it. Therefore the model has a real Leadership value totally interchangeable with what is printed in the Codex in its stateline.

Again, since all Ld tests are made against the model as quoted above, how does the model not have the reflected Ld value against Mind War as well.

You have no basis in rules to say that a Weirdboy in a Mob who was targeted with Mind War, would not have a Ld of 10 to resist with, if the Mob was 10 or more models. By the same token you have no basis in rules to say that any other model in the Mob would not also have the same Ld 10 to resist with, as all models have the same Mob Rule special rule. And no where in the description of Mob Rule or any other location in the Codex does it say it interacts differantly with differant types of models who posses that rule. So if a Wierdboy gets to use the Ld value granted to it by Mob Rule for a test that "must always be taken on the psykers own Leadership value" I see no rules basis to say it is not also making every other type of model with the Mob Rule special rule get the same benifit for any test that goes on that individual models own Ld value.

dietrich wrote:This is a pointless arguement...

Really? I suspect it has been an interesting read for many, isn't that enough of a reason?

dietrich wrote:...be content to d6 the answer.

Sourclams and I rolled a D6,... We tied.

dietrich wrote:If GW wrote good rules and published good FAQs, we'd have an answer.

Indeed.

Augustus wrote:

dietrich wrote:...be content to d6 the answer.

Sourclams and I rolled a D6,... We tied.

Does GW still have their flowchart? Is the next step a re-roll, or is it thumb-resting, comparing number of letters in mother's maiden name (with fewer letters winning), duration of marriage (longer winning, and you have to tell the guy that you're sorry his commitment to toy soldiers has been interrupted for that many years), date of birth, or whoever can scream WAAAAAAAAAGH the loudest?

Way to go Marius! What a detailed post.

Marius Xerxes wrote:...Again, since all Ld tests are made against the model as quoted above, how does the model not have the reflected Ld value against Mind War as well.

...because being the target of a mindwar is not a leadership test or psychic check.

How can an Ork win a mind war with an ageless being?

Just food for thought :-p

Because the raw psychic potentail that flows through/generated by each of the component orks combines into a massive psychic energy field interfeering with even the strongest psykers.

Ahem : WAAAGGHHH!

I have to agree with Tri's argument that an Ork Independent Character with Mob Rule is a Mob, and when attached to a larger ork unit gets to use the size of the larger unit as its Leadership value against Mind War, due to the Weird Boyz precendent. So the Mekboy or Warboss in a mob of 10 orks gets a LD 10 for the purposes of Mind War.

But regular orks, or characters which aren't independent characters, however, would be more vulnerable to Mind War sniping because a model, such as a Painboy, isn't a Mob. So, the poor Gretchin has to make due with his Ld 5 against Mind War.

Did the discussion end up split last time because both sides wanted it all their own way, or what?

It's impossible to "win" a mind war against a farseer if you are not a farseer yourself. If you are strong willed you can escape with your mind and body still intact, that's all.

BTW, grots have no Mob rule!.

This argument seems to be a little too focused. There's more to the mob rule than what you guys are using.

"Mob Rule
Ork Psychology and morale is directly linked to the number of Boyz around them at any given time. An Ork with a trukkload of his mates backing him up is a good sight more confident than one with just his half-wit mate Zog at his heels! Because of this, Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the fearless special rule."

The important points previously ignored in this section of the rules come in those first 2 sentences. They reference an individual Ork being more confident when backed up by his mates.

Nowhere in this rule does it mention a restriction as to what the rule can be used for. This is not a leadership test modifier. I think this point was adequately covered earlier in the thread.

So the rule, not the fluff, tells us this applies to each and every Ork. No inferences needed, this is explicit. The mob has the same leadership value because each boy benefits from the rule and is the same leadership as all of his mates. Unless, of course, his mates happen to be a half-wit named Zog.

Gitzbitah wrote:"Ork Psychology and morale is directly linked to the number of Boyz around them at any given time. An Ork with a trukkload of his mates backing him up is a good sight more confident than one with just his half-wit mate Zog at his heels! Because of this, ...."

Which is all meaningless fluff. Or maybe it only works when there is a truck load of Orks? How many is that? Do they have to be truckboys? Do they have to be mates? Are there female Orks in the unit? Are Orks Polygamists, can they even have mates? Is it the australian "Mate" as in friend...? What if Zog is killed, then does it still work....

Still think thats a rule?

Gitzbitah wrote:The important points previously ignored in this section of the rules come in those first 2 sentences.

Please go back to fluffland.

Gitzbitah wrote:So the rule, not the fluff, tells us this applies to each and every Ork. No inferences needed, this is explicit.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Some posters in this thread are advocating that "Mob" is undefined and that Mobs don't have a statline.

If that were true when the morale rules reference Unit, not Mob, so if a Mob is NOT a unit, then substituing Mob leadership even for LD checks or Psychic checks (which being targeted by mindwar is NOT) wouldn't even work.

A Mob is a Unit.
A Mindwar attack is NOT a psychic check for the target.
A Mindwar attack roll is not a LD test.
The Mob Rule works only for Mobs, or Units, not models.
A weirdboy psychic check is a (poorly worded) special case, addressed in it's own entry in the Ork codex.

Individual Orks targeted by Mindwar use the stat on their statline regardless of what size Unit they are in because they are models.

Webbe wrote:BTW, grots have no Mob rule!.

Is there a Grot even worth mindwar?

It's humorous to think with Ld5 the best they could do is tie a farseer at 11. Essentially the seer just thinks about them being dead and they are.

That's kind of funny.

Gah ... Augustus you only need one post at a time and telling people to go back to fluff land isn't help full.

Summing up what you said ...
...Mobs are units and the unit can use the number of models for its LD test.
...Mindwar targets the models LD value.
...Weirdboy can only use the mobs LD as it has been FAQ.
...Fluff is great but we can only play with rules.

Grots don't have Mob rule, but their runtherders do.


Three pages and this discussion continues, I don't understand at all.

Every Ork model in a unit/mob/flotilla/crowd/herd/gathering has the same leadership. The model's leadership is determined by the number of models in that mob. If you point to one of my orks and say, "What's his leadership?" I'm going to count the number of orks in that unit and if the number is higher than 7, I'm going to give you that number (up to 10).

If you somehow didn't understand why it wasn't 7, I would show you the rulebook, my codex where mob rule is defined, and let you read them.

If you further had an issue, I would get someone else to try talking sense into you.

If you still didn't accept it well....then I would tell you to pack up your gear, because we're obviously not playing Warhammer 40k. =p

I agree with you Dashofpepper

The RB shows us that characteristics and values are attributed to 'models' and not 'units' as per pages 6 - 8 of the BGB.

The Ork codex tells us that 'Mob Rule' allows the Ork player to substitute the number of Orks in the mob for the leadership value of the mob.

The only thing the naysayers have to argue is the word 'mob'. But Mob is nothing but a another way to say "a group of Orks" and not surprisingly the same definition for a 'unit' in which in its definition it says "a group of models".

So where ever you see Mob or Unit you can easily substitute its definition in its place if it makes it better for you.

So, Mob rule can easily read "A group of Orks may always substitue the number of Orks in their group of orks for their normal leadership value (a value which can only be possessed by models per page 6 - 8 BGB)."

Each Ork now posses this new "leadership value". As proven by intention on how the Weird boy interacts with this rule. As per page 50 of the BGB last sentence second paragraph, only a psyker may use his **own** LD for any psychic power. Yet Mob rule allows the psyker to use this new LD value because it is *now* his LD value

This makes sense rules wise and common sense wise IMO. I really don't see how this can be argued.

And yet we're at 3 pages as people argue it. *shrugs*

Orks have mobs because Orks iz da coolest. Unitz is fer da stinkin' 'umie scum-suckin' tazwallerz dat tink deyz smarter dan da boyz. Ye stinkin' space elf stickmen iz askin' fer a good krushin too!

But really, we call our units mobs because they are. Units suggest disciplined formations of troops. Orks are mobs.

Dashofpepper wrote:Every Ork model in a unit/mob/flotilla/crowd/herd/gathering has the same leadership. The model's leadership is determined by the number of models in that mob. If you point to one of my orks and say, "What's his leadership?" I'm going to count the number of orks in that unit and if the number is higher than 7, I'm going to give you that number (up to 10).

...and you would be wrong, because the mob rule doesnt refer to single models at all, it refers to mobs.

Dashofpepper wrote:If you somehow didn't understand why it wasn't 7, I would show you the rulebook, my codex where mob rule is defined, and let you read them.

...and I would show you the only reference to "mob" in your own codex, not model, and the eldar dex reference to model.

Bah! Enough already.

Mob Rule applies to Mind War

Eldritch Storm doesn't scatter

Oz is over the rainbow

Because the ork has no thoughts other than "Dakka dakka" and "more choppy" and "might makes right". The farseer has all sorts of random thoughts blowing around his head.

Augustus, based on your single interaction with me, I'd have to be forced to call you a rules lawyer without understanding of the rules.

We're talking about Warhammer 40k, not Warmachine. You can target a model within a unit if your Codex says that you can, but as far as I know, the Eldar Codex (like I said before) doesn't say anything about negating rules that apply to other races.

When I have 9 Orks in a unit/mob/squad/crowd/whatever....each of those 9 orks have a leadership of 9. When a unit of anything...say crisis suits have mixed leadership, the highest leadership applies. The same applies to every race. There are two ways of looking at a rule:

1. What the BGB says.
2. What the Codex says about superceding the BGB.

Since you don't like either of those, and want to do 3. What Augustus thinks the rules should mean instead of what they are...

You get relegated to the status of troll.

Dashofpepper wrote:When I have 9 Orks in a unit/mob/squad/crowd/whatever....each of those 9 orks have a leadership of 9. When a unit of anything...say crisis suits have mixed leadership, the highest leadership applies.

From Marius earlier BRB quotes, that is only for Leadership tests, the mind war roll off is not a leadership test. The Mob Rule applies to units, a model is not a unit, therefore use the models LD, 7.

Dashofpepper wrote:You get relegated to the status of troll.

Find the maturity to admit when you are beaten, or make a better case. You haven't presented anything new here, other than an attempt to villianize.

Augustus wrote:Way to go Marius! What a detailed post.

Marius Xerxes wrote:...Again, since all Ld tests are made against the model as quoted above, how does the model not have the reflected Ld value against Mind War as well.

...because being the target of a mindwar is not a leadership test or psychic check.

Again you fail to see the line of reasoning I am putting here. If the game mechanic and wording follow the same path, for a Psychic Test and the model having to use its own Leadership value, just like Mind War, how do you justify one type being acceptable and another not? They follow the same principle and there is no differance made explicitly between the two types of test saying Mob Rule works for one and not another.

If in one case Mob Rule changes the models Ld it tests against, then it clearly has reason to stand just as strong against another. Psychic Tests and Mind War are not the same, obviously. But the mechanic for determining the models Ld it uses during said tests is identical. If Mob Rule applies to one, it applies to both since there is nothing said to limit its focus to just Psychic Tests.

As for who mentioned it should help IC's and not regular boys, there is no grounds for this. Mob Rule is the same rule set for every model who has it. The rule itself does not distinguish between IC's, regular boys, Burna Boys etc. Its the same rule that applies in exactly the same way to every model that has it.

Augustus wrote:
Which is all meaningless fluff. Or maybe it only works when there is a truck load of Orks? How many is that? Do they have to be truckboys? Do they have to be mates? Are there female Orks in the unit? Are Orks Polygamists, can they even have mates? Is it the australian "Mate" as in friend...? What if Zog is killed, then does it still work....

Still think thats a rule?

Yes, I do. Games Workshop is fairly regular about separating their rules and fluff. This not only came from the Ork Special Rules section, but also the very same paragraph of the more numerical rule you are taking out of context. The descriptions of how many boyz are required is not given a numerical value in that sentence. Instead they waited until later in the paragraph to explain the mechanics. Indeed, their explanation starts with the classical reference to previous material 'Because of this'. That's the start of the sentence which lays out how Mob rule works,for some reason pointing us towards the 'fluff' from the Special Rules section. The structure of this paragraph shouldn't be too difficult for such a connoisseur of Ork gender and culture to comprehend. Thanks for asking the tough questions about Ork 'mate'ing rituals.

Orks reproduce by growing new ones, there are no female orks.

The rule states The mob may substitute THEIR leadership for all leadership tests. As I recall, mind war is against a model, not a mob/unit, so therefore cannot use mob/unit rules, and thats if this was even a leadership test, which it clearly isn't, so the rule is voided anyways.

The Mob Rule Clearly states "May always choose to substitute the number of orks in their mob for their normal Leadership Value"
The Mob Rule is a special rule given to each and every ork in the codex that has "Mob Rule" in its Special Rules section.

According to Page 100 of the Ork Codex under the troops section it lists under special rules: - Furious Charge - Mob Rule - Waaagh!
Every Ork in the unit because it also states the Unit Composition is 10-30 Ork Boyz

you can not choose to give some orks some of those rules and not others. Every Ork has each.

By the logic of a Model is not a Mob then that means that when the Orks assault in to combat then there is only a single +1S and +1I, or when they waaagh and run in the shooting phase all of the orks from that unit have fleet not just one of them.

So essentially the sequence should be this:
1) Check to see if Mind War can be used by passing LD test, Correct? ( i don't have the Eldar Codex, Sorry)
2) Choose the target for Mind War...
3) Determine Targets LD... If Targeting an IG use the actual models LD not the Leaders LD per the Psychic ability, If you target an Ork check the number of others in his Mob/unit then ask the player which LD he will be using.
4) Roll a D6 and complete the psychic power.

So to recap yes the Orks can use the printed LD or the new Normal LD given to them through the Mob rule.

And yes the Fluff makes sense for him not to be able to work against orks as easily because the orks don't have as a rationale thought process then a lone ork or weak non orky race for they are truly focused ontheir intent! WAR!

My 2 cents I hope it clears things up...

Oh and GW is Notorious for sneaking fluff into rules, but they are getting better. and no it's not "they may not substitute for all leadership tests" it doesn't even mention leadership tests... it simply substitutes for their normal LD value.

AffliKtion wrote:Orks reproduce by growing new ones, there are no female orks.

The rule states The mob may substitute THEIR leadership for all leadership tests. As I recall, mind war is against a model, not a mob/unit, so therefore cannot use mob/unit rules, and thats if this was even a leadership test, which it clearly isn't, so the rule is voided anyways.

Must..read..codex..arrrggg

It does not say for leadership tests. It says "for their normal leadership value." Emphasis mine. No where in the rule does it specify what kind of tests it applies for, merly that the Ld value itself is substituted. There is a very significant difference. There are several reasons I bring up in my posts as reasoning it does apply to Mind War, and as others have pointed out, including Yakface in another thread, Mobs dont have a Ld value, nor any other Characteristic values. Only models have Characteristic values to to say a Mob does is making up rules that arent there expressly or implied.

Augustus, here's the reason you're a troll:

I KNOW I'm not bringing in anything new. People can quote the rules and show you the rulebook all day, and you will continue to sit here plugging your ears with your eyes squinched shut singing "LALALALALA" at the top of your lungs. All I'm trying to do is bash some common sense through your thick skull, without effect.

Some common elements of trolls:

1. They have thick skulls (you).
2. "LALALALA" is their favorite song (you).
3. If you were to take any given person, make them contort their face as described above (you) it would look like a a troll.
4. Augustus is a common name for Troll-kin.

So listen: I don't need to "prove" any argument to you. You have a contention with the rules. They're very clear about leadership - there's no debate to be had about this topic. You can CHOOSE to ignore the rules, in which case if we were in person, I would give you the rulebook and say "Prove it." You couldn't...because the rules and Codex are explicit in their description of how wrong you are.

Which is why I say this again: You're welcome to disagree, but if you wish to not follow either the 40k rules, or Codex rules, I suggest you take your army of little plastic guys and go outside and play soldier with them - because 40k requires you to adhere to a set of rules that you're intent on ignoring (while plugging your ears, singing, etc).

Gitzbitah wrote:

Augustus wrote:Still think that's a rule?

Yes, I do.

I begin to think for some Ork players, the Ork Rules work the same in the game as the Ork technology does in the fiction.

By simple belief in the impossible!

Take this with the humor in mind when it was written.

Marius wrote:Again you fail to see the line of reasoning I am putting here. If the game mechanic and wording follow the same path, for a Psychic Test and the model having to use its own Leadership value, just like Mind War, how do you justify one type being acceptable and another not? They follow the same principle and there is no differance made explicitly between the two types of test saying Mob Rule works for one and not another.

OK Marius, trying to keep an open mind, while not backing off that a Leadership test, is not the same as a Mindwar role off, I'm checking the wording, let's see:

BGB Leadership check : P8
"In the case of a leadership test, roll 2D6 (...). If the result is equal to or less than the model's Leadership, the test is passed."
(bold emphasis mine)

Eldar Codex: Mindwar P 28
"Both players roll a D6 and ad the Leadership of their respective Models."
(bold emphasis mine)

If I have these quotes right, as the ones you mean, then what follows is, if Orks get Mob Rule for a Leadership check by substitution, wouldn't they also get it for Mindwar because the context (wording reference to model) is the same in both rules?

I actually think that is a pretty good argument. I had to check my books tonight to see the wording. When I did though I found some more details. This really illuminates the Mob Rule, applying to Mobs, or units, (agreed to prior in the posts as essentially synonymous) being differentiated from a model's, because of the reference to a "Unit's Leadership" in the BGB morale section.

BGB Morale Check : P43
"Like all other leadership-based tests, Morale checks (...) are taken by rolling 2D6 and comparing the total to the Unit's Leadership value. If the score rolled is equal to or under the unit's Leadership value,..."
(bold emphasis mine)

This makes it clear, despite comments of "show me the stat line of a unit" a unit can have a leadership. The Mob rule applies to Mobs, or units. Individual model Leadership is not the same. Therefore:

Model != Mob
Mindwar != Leadership, Morale or Psychic Test
Mob LD=# Orks
Model LD=7

Affliktion wrote:...mind war is against a model, not a mob/unit, so therefore cannot use mob/unit rules, and that's if this was even a leadership test, which it clearly isn't, so the rule is voided anyways.

Exactly.

Tri wrote:Gah ... Augustus you only need one post at a time

*All responses consolidated into one post at the request of Tri.

LOL

I'll weigh in with my opinion, as everyone always has the right to here what I have to say!

;-)

RAW - I agree with Augustus that a mob is not a model - the mob is a group of models and the collective mob has an effective leadership of the number of members of the mob. The target of mindwar is an individual, and should as such use the individual stat line.

RAI - based off what it says under the Weirdboy, I'm inclined to think that the designers intended Mob Rule to work in this case.

As you were.

So if units can have stats, like Leadership..

Then when in the Ork Special rules it says "To represent their reckless bloodlust many Ork units have the Furious Charge special rule", are you saying that none of the models get the benefits of it, as the rules clearly say the unit gets it but not the models in the unit?

Because that is the same logic you are applying here.

And of course I know a Leadership test isn't the same as Mind War. I have said that repeatedly yet you keep beating it like a dead horse to.. fill up a argument against what?

I bring up the mechanics of how a Psychic Test and Mind War work as a comparison.. not the test itself. As you have as yet not refuted, nor able to by RAW they both go on the models Ld value. If Mob Rule applies to one test and counting the Ld value of the individual model as being differant from that printed in the Codex, then Mob Rule would apply to the other as well.

This is because there is no distinction as to what types of test, based on an Orks Ld value, that are or are not affected by Mob Rules benifit. It simply applies to them all. And Psychic Tests, being a test made on a Models individual Ld with no modifiers is the exact same as Mind War saying you test against the individual models Ld.

Again.. its not the tests themselves that are being compared. It is the Ld value they both require, and how you determine that value, that is.

Mob Rule is a special ability on a MODEL, not MOB!!!. Look it up ill wait... Mob rules is a rule on the Boyz profile. This means that the Mob rule applies to each and every model with Mob Rule special rule [FROM NOW ON MR for short] the Weird boy gets to up his Ld from MR b/c his profile has MR, the Bos gets MR so he can up his Ld from MR. MR does not say may only be applied to Ld test so we may then assume that anytime Ld would be used they may then use the improved Ld, UNLESS that case says to use the unmodified Ld. MW does not say that only the Ld of the respective models the Seer and what ever hes about to make head's explode.

I agree with Augustus on this one. RAW and RAI.

The theory behind the mob rule is that an ork in a squad of high numbers has good morale(not in gaming terms).
However, leadership value is different,even though in the game morale test are taken the same as leadership test.
A Farseer that is reaching into the mind of an ork is probably not fighting against the morale of that ork in a mob,but is likely undetected in his efforts to kill an over grown spore.

I know that I don't become a better leader in a crowd,but my morale is affected.

Augustus wrote:Well then, it's not the models LD is it?

Every model in a mob affected by the mob rule special rule gets to replace their leadership value with the number of models in the mob. Period.

I honestly don't see how this can be interpreted otherwise.

Blackarandras wrote:I agree with Augustus on this one. RAW and RAI.

The theory behind the mob rule is that an ork in a squad of high numbers has good morale(not in gaming terms).
However, leadership value is different,even though in the game morale test are taken the same as leadership test.
A Farseer that is reaching into the mind of an ork is probably not fighting against the morale of that ork in a mob,but is likely undetected in his efforts to kill an over grown spore.

I know that I don't become a better leader in a crowd,but my morale is affected.

Problem is, while it sounds nice, fluff as reasoning for a rule doesn't work. You can only use in a rules argument, whats stated in the rules. Not how well you can describe its fluff function.

Ld Value is a statistic given to roll for a various number of things. Unlike several examples from other Codeci that can affect what vale you use for the roll, the Ork Codex gives no restrictions like those others. It doesn't allow another value to be used only for Moral Tests, Leadership Tests, or Pin Tests etc. It changes the value for everything. Its a general statement with no specifics. Without being specific in its rules wording, you can only take it in the broadest of senses allowable. They give further evidence to this in allowing a model with the rule to apply it to a test that is normally only allowed to be taken on that models Ld stat written in the codex, with no other modifiers or substitutions. Mind War demands the specifics of the Ld value of its target in the exact same way as the previously mentioned test. So if Mob Rule works against the specifics as one test, why not to another test of the same specificity? Most importantly, this is because it is not said it only works in that one case.. it works in all cases where there is a Ld value to be tested on for every model which posses that rule.

@Marius Xerxes ... Good point but it falls short. Every ork has the mob rule but mob rule only grants a benifit to the unit.

"'Furious Charge' models with this skill ..." In this case the models benifit from the rule.

Independent Charictors are the only gray area as they are mobs of that may join other mobs.

Thanks to Augustus last post we can see that it is not a model that take a LD boost but the unit, squad or mob. If the Unit was to have to take a LD test of some discription then they can substitute the number of models.

Now as i said before i think that GW want to give orks a blanket boost to their LD but that it not what they've put.

Tri wrote:

Affliktion wrote:...mind war is against a model, not a mob/unit, so therefore cannot use mob/unit rules, and that's if this was even a leadership test, which it clearly isn't, so the rule is voided anyways.

Exactly.

Are you serious? That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard today. Mad Dok Grotsnik confers Feel No pain on any unit he joins. You just argued that if a sniper targets a model inside that unit, they don't get feel no pain because its against a model, not the unit.

There's 10 other ways to explain that, and all are equally demonstrative that your viewpoint is....skewed.

Since you think the intention was for a blanket Ld boost, and you can see (from all the other posts here) that it is entirely possible to read the rules in exactly that way, why wouldn't you play it that way?

If I have an Ork troop choice that consists of ONE Boy...he has Mob rule. Every model has Mob Rule, just like every model in a Broadside unit has Slow and purposeful, just like every model in a unit of Orks where applicable have Furious Charge.

What you fail to understand is that things that affect a unit only are granted to that unit by one character. If I attach Ghazghkull Thraka to a mob of Orks, that mob is now Slow and Purposeful because he is. They move at his speed. Each of the boyz in the mob aren't slow and purposeful by themselves, they adopt his movement rules.

Mob Rule isn't something that affects a unit because of a special rule. If only one Ork is on the table, he has mob rule. ALL the boyz have that rule, and its attached to every model.

Both sides are obviously not going to reach an agreement here. Ask your opponent's stance before the game, and if there is contention, be gentlemanly and play by the way your opponent would like. If it costs you the game, you weren't playing well enough anyway.

Also, just because someone doesn't agree with you and continues to defend their position, they're not a troll. Calling them one when they're not just out to get a reaction is rude, poor form and makes the post seem silly.

If you really, really feel the need to continue this discussion, summarize the points thus far and start a new thread. There's not going to be any leniency on rudeness this time around, though.