Powerfists in tactical squads are expensive they make the sarge cost more then a terminator and a terminator gets a better save and an invulnerable. Do people find it worth it to buy a powerfist for a tactical squad or is it better to just leave the close combat to terminators?

Take the fist. It gives you a little more punch and survivability (is that a word?) if assaulted. Plus if a vehicle gets too close, it gives a better chance to destroy it in assaults than an average "Joe".

There are two camps of opinion on this one. Both have valid points to make.

I personally don't think that P-fists are effective in tactical squads as I believe that they are a poor attempt at making a tactical squad more of a HtH fighting unit, which deviates from its obvious mission, which I think is actually shooting. Every squad member is equipped to play a good shooting game assisted by good leadership and combat tactics.

In this vein I think that combi-weapons that mirror the tactical squads special weapon (combi-flamers with special flamers, combi-melta's with meltas) are the smartest choice for equipping the Sergeant. Combi-weapons are cheap, effective, and dont dedicate the other nine marines in the squad to a mission that they are ill-prepared to take part in.

Hand of Dume wrote:Take the fist. It gives you a little more punch and survivability (is that a word?) if assaulted. Plus if a vehicle gets too close, it gives a better chance to destroy it in assaults than an average "Joe".

Fists dont really give you any more "survivability" in close combat. They do nothing to increase your armour save, or save on casualties toward the rest of the squad.

The only thing that 'fists do, is ensure the ability to inflict AT LEAST one or two reliable wounds in close combat against most any opponent. THATS ALL THEY DO. Most of the time, that one or two wounds wont be very telling in terms of "who's making a leadership test after losing combat"...the tactical marines cannot fight dedicated close combat units just because they have a 'fist. Combats will still be no contest against these units....you just pay 25 (or 15 in the case of utilising combi-weapons) more points to get your butt-kicked.

As far as vehicles, Krak grenades do just fine considering rear armour and 10 attacks (especially considering that they're free!). If armour 14 is your problem (land raiders) powerfists arent going to help you that much, but a melta bomb on the sergeant might. I keep hearing people say how good fists are in vehicular close combat. I think the better weapons/abilities are krak/melta and combat tactics against dreads....but thats just me.

I use powerfists, because I am used to fighting a decent amount of Nid Monstrous creatures and Wraithlords on a regular basis, and Krak Grenades are useless in those situations.

i would agree with quixote, against certain enemies its well worth takinng the fist, simply because they can do enough damage to not only kill most things, but might even cause the other player to keep away from them.

In both these cases, Nid monstrous and WL's, your better weapons are combat tactics and shooting. You might do a wound with a powerfist, but those 25 pts vs monstrous creatures would be better spent in say shooting attacks. Against Monstrous Creature tyranids, I'd say two combi-plasmas and a melta gun would be better purchases....and easier wounds against the tyranids as well.

A single powerfist doenst make you any sort of a match in hand to hand combat against Tyranids. Thinking it does is delusional. Tyranid big creatures are what high str shooting weapons are for, assault terminators with hammers/sheilds. Tyranid mostrous creatures wipe the walls with tacticals, its exactly where they would like to be, especially after softening up your army with shooting and then charging the powerfist armed tactical squad with say, a hive tyrant with lash whip. Tyranids laugh at your puny fists...and the fact you think you can fight them in hth.

Combat tactics are risky... you may fall off the table or not fall back enough to regroup.

G

The fact is, there's nothing in the game that a Power Fist can't damage. There are times that your tactical squad will end up in combat with a Dreadnought or Monsterous Creature. A Power Fist gives the squad a fighting chance at winning this combat. A Tac Squad without a Power Fist can never win against an Ironclad Dreadnought or an MC with T8+.

If you fight in an environment where you are guaranteed to never face such opponents or where they aren't used well enough to suprise you occasionally - then there may not be a justification for a Power Fist.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Combat tactics are risky... you may fall off the table or not fall back enough to regroup.

G

If you're PLANNING on using combat tactics, you wont be within 10-12" of your deployment zone when you use it....and even if you dont regroup, you may still be in range to fire melta's or plasma at monstrous creatures.

By the way, if you're fighting tyranids in Hand to hand with a powerfist within 10-12" of the board edge, you've got a good chance of falling off the table yourself...you sure arent winning the close combat.

I've had great success in leading tac squads into close combat, sure I used a PW instead of a PF, but don't discount TAC squads in CC.

Yes, I understand that they will lose against dedicated assault units... which is why you don't charge those ones. However, not ALL units in an opponents army will be CC specialists... probably.

Democratus wrote:The fact is, there's nothing in the game that a Power Fist can't damage. There are times that your tactical squad will end up in combat with a Dreadnought or Monsterous Creature. A Power Fist gives the squad a fighting chance at winning this combat.

The only monstrous creature you have a fighting chance of WINNING a combat against is a Wraithlord (or armour 12 dread), and that's if it whiffs.

Powerfists do NOT give you fighting chances against MC's with any sort of multiple attacks and mobility. Bloodthirsters, Tyrants, DaemonPrinces, or armour 13 dreads, you're not WINNING these combats. You have 2 attacks...generally hitting with one, wounding, then hoping the opponent fails his Invuln or hoping to get over armour 12/13...then running anyway because you have a better chance of wounding him during the shooting phase with multiple str 4 and melta.

A Tac Squad without a Power Fist can never win against an Ironclad Dreadnought or an MC with T8+.

...and rarely does WITH a 'fist. However, a single meltagun shot is quite effective. I'd rather have a combi-melta than a powerfist against an Ironclad any day of the week, especially with another melta in the same squad supporting each others shot. Ironclads laugh at str 8 powerfists, ask anyone who runs multiple dreads in an army.

Shrike78 wrote:I've had great success in leading tac squads into close combat, sure I used a PW instead of a PF, but don't discount TAC squads in CC.

Yes, I understand that they will lose against dedicated assault units... which is why you don't charge those ones. However, not ALL units in an opponents army will be CC specialists... probably.

No, but his cc troops are the ones most likely to be in your face. Your tac squad won't be in his backfield. Sure, there are times that the pf is handy, but the points are better spent elsewhere. It isn't a "bad" choice, it jsut isn't the "best" choice.

Shrike78 wrote:I've had great success in leading tac squads into close combat, sure I used a PW instead of a PF, but don't discount TAC squads in CC.

Yes, I understand that they will lose against dedicated assault units... which is why you don't charge those ones. However, not ALL units in an opponents army will be CC specialists... probably.

PW's I can see. Cheaper, more attacks, wounding things that basic marines can acutally fight against in cc. (not well, but they can fight anyway)

PW's dont ignore the rest of the squad in order to accomplish a mission....makes them a better choice still than a 'fist IMHO.

PWs bounce most of the time.

G

Since they knocked off the +1 attack for 2ccw's if you have a powerfist, you can give your sergeant a bolter (or combi weapon) so he can add his fire to the rest of the squad.

Depends. If you run an army with Terminator units then power fists for the Tacticals should be redundant.
Otherwise, I'd give power fists to at least 2 Tacticals, as they are Dreadnought insurance.

One thing that nobody has mentioned is this: independent characters.

Without a powerfist, many mid-level characters can walk through a tac squad. WITH a powerfist that character really has to think twice about whether, how, and when he wants to charge the squad.

Also, if a character is left out in the open (even with an accompanying unit) after winning a CC, your fist can hit the character in B2B and have a good chance of preventing that character from fighting more of your units.

For Marines I think the power fist is a mixed bag, it really depends on what the squad is being used for. When building an army I always say to myself; is this squad going to be camping an objective in the back ( not much use for that 25 point fist here) or are they gonna get stuck in with the heavy hitters in an attempt for mid field->hostile table edge objectives in which case 75% of the time they will get into combat and that fist can make a difference.

Thats my two thrones on the matter anyways

Without a powerfist, many mid-level characters can walk through a tac squad. WITH a powerfist that character really has to think twice about whether, how, and when he wants to charge the squad.

I could not have said it any better.

G

Combat tactics is great and all, if you have it. DA/BA do not, nor do the SMs lead by Vulkan, Pedro, et al. In those cases you'll want to consider whether the fist makes sense.

There's also some synergy with a fist sgt and some SCs. BA can get FC and rerolls from Corbulo and Dante -- FC makes the fist a better option against AR14 and the rerolls makes up a bit for the loss of an attack. Pedro can get his sgts an extra attack. Making more use of the synergy offered by those SCs makes sense.

I agree, the fist is pure insurance. It makes your opponant think tiwce before charging a tac squad.

If it is a daisy picker squad, then no, give them a L.Cannon and a P.Gun (or any shooting weapons for that matter) and keep them cheap on your objective. If they pod or advance on an objective then toss them the fist for insurance. I have always given my tac squads a fist as a rule of thumb unless they are of the stand and shoot variety.

If you take Pedro Kantor as an HQ then the power fist is really worth the points. The +1A bubble makes tactical squads a lot better in close combat... just something to consider for a vanilla SM list.

G

Without a powerfist, many mid-level characters can walk through a tac squad. WITH a powerfist that character really has to think twice about whether, how, and when he wants to charge the squad.

im guessing ghaz doesent count as mid-level?
but yes, very true, may not be much, but it still prevents the odd dread, kan or defiler getting too close.

I am in the camp of not using them at all . Their not worth the points and I have never seen them be anymore effective than what results you would normally get.


Think of it this way.


Dropping a P. Fist gets you 15 points closer.


I still insist that


10 Marines + Missile Launcher or H. Plasma your choice ; Meltagun Combi Melta

Razor Back 40 points.

230 points


Is better than


10 Marines, Power Fist ; Melta , H. Plasma 210.


I will take 2 Melta Guns and H. on the fall back than staying in close combat with something. feth that.

Wraithlord Charges w/ Blade. 4 Die, you have 2 attacks that hit 50 percent. Lets say you do 1 wound. Great you have lost by 3.


Now which is the better tactic. Staying in hand to hand w/ a Toughness 8 Creature or voluntarily falling back and being able to hit on 3+ with your melta weapons along with your other shooting.

A wound from the power fist versus T8 is not something I would bet on with two attacks but that would equal the combi melta. So it's two attacks that hit on 4+ versus one attack (combi melta only for comparison versus power fist) that hits on 3+. I don't see any reason why not to fall back after the initial close combat if your squad is charged by the WL and then charge it... that's three more attacks versus one from the combi melta.

Also the combi melta is a one time shot while the power fist works in multiple turns of close combat.

G

GBF, in that case a simple PW works well, ok, its not as strong, but hits 1st leaving less to attack back.

I was speaking specifically in regards to fighting a Wraithlord, which the power sword cannot wound. I don't use power weapons because they have a harder time wounding versus the power fist in general. I suppose if you had enough power weapons it could make a difference.

G

in the case of wraithlord then i would take PF over most tac weps, it will do its job pretty quickly.

i know, and against nids i would take PF's instead due to wounding MC's, but on average, PW's work out well against a vast ammount of units, allthough both PW and PF are wasted alot against small nids and orks.

Okay so here are the pros in relation to a power weapon:

Easier time wounding things
Creates a possibility to hurt tanks in CC
Makes many IC's scared/hesitant to rip apart your tactical squad.

And the Cons:

Strikes last
Expensive
Fewer attacks


Over all, I like to have more dedicated heavy unit hunters, so I leave the fists at home for my tac squads. But, if you feel that you should spread the love throughout your army, that may work for you too.

I think the number one reason why most people opt not to take power fists is to save points. I can see the value of a power weapon for an HQ... they generally hit first, hit on 3+ and have a lot of attacks. If I decided to save points by not taking power fists I would not use those points to field power weapons in my tactical squads.

G

If you play marine equivalents, then power fists are a must, seeing how if you are assaulted you at least take some with you, since normal close combat attacks will only kill an average of one or two MEQ (at least in all the games I have played)

Fiendcrackar! wrote:If you play marine equivalents, then power fists are a must, seeing how if you are assaulted you at least take some with you, since normal close combat attacks will only kill an average of one or two MEQ (at least in all the games I have played)

So, are they better than regular PW?

Of course for all the reasons already presented here.

G

Fiendcrackar! wrote:If you play marine equivalents, then power fists are a must, seeing how if you are assaulted you at least take some with you, since normal close combat attacks will only kill an average of one or two MEQ (at least in all the games I have played)

Gee, what a coincidence. Powerfist do exactly the same thing in that very example...but for 10 pts more.

Your example here about why powerfists are a MUST, doesnt exactly blow my skirt up.

Depends on the unit and it's function. I play chaos and Plague marines get a fist (Int 3), my Noise marines get a PW (int 5). Generally for regular squads I'll spend points on melta and plasma guns over a fist. Sure there are instances when a fist is great, against monoliths, instant death on characters, etc., but putting one in every squad can add up. Generally I have three to four squads in an army, so 100 pts on fists could be a squad of three termies.

Deadshane1 wrote:In both these cases, Nid monstrous and WL's, your better weapons are combat tactics and shooting. You might do a wound with a powerfist, but those 25 pts vs monstrous creatures would be better spent in say shooting attacks. Against Monstrous Creature tyranids, I'd say two combi-plasmas and a melta gun would be better purchases....and easier wounds against the tyranids as well.

A single powerfist doenst make you any sort of a match in hand to hand combat against Tyranids. Thinking it does is delusional. Tyranid big creatures are what high str shooting weapons are for, assault terminators with hammers/sheilds. Tyranid mostrous creatures wipe the walls with tacticals, its exactly where they would like to be, especially after softening up your army with shooting and then charging the powerfist armed tactical squad with say, a hive tyrant with lash whip. Tyranids laugh at your puny fists...and the fact you think you can fight them in hth.

You also arent locked in with the beast.

Deadshane1 wrote:In both these cases, Nid monstrous and WL's, your better weapons are combat tactics and shooting. You might do a wound with a powerfist, but those 25 pts vs monstrous creatures would be better spent in say shooting attacks. Against Monstrous Creature tyranids, I'd say two combi-plasmas and a melta gun would be better purchases....and easier wounds against the tyranids as well.

A single powerfist doenst make you any sort of a match in hand to hand combat against Tyranids. Thinking it does is delusional. Tyranid big creatures are what high str shooting weapons are for, assault terminators with hammers/sheilds. Tyranid mostrous creatures wipe the walls with tacticals, its exactly where they would like to be, especially after softening up your army with shooting and then charging the powerfist armed tactical squad with say, a hive tyrant with lash whip. Tyranids laugh at your puny fists...and the fact you think you can fight them in hth.

You're delusional if you think that one melta makes you a match against tyranids.

You're delusional if you think that 25 points isn't worth the difference between a carnifex with an ordinance weapon dying a turn earlier than otherwise.

You're delusional if you think squads won't already have special weapons.

Also, you fail to realize, having a powerfist does not force you to HtH. It is just that WHEN you get charged, you do extra damage, and can combat tactics away afterwords. With moderate luck, 3+ to hit 2+ to wound, you could take away half a dakkafex's wounds in one of your opponent's assault phases. If it's 113 points are 50% dead before your turn even starts, it's a lot more likely you'll be minus one annoying MC later.


You need to stop arguing that marines Have to be tau. They're WS4 and S4 and I4 by default. This means they don't automatically have to bend over and lift up their skirts to any enemy unit with anything more than S3.

just a thing here to rule out melta fire against MC's:

you will get 1 shot max before it rushes your unit, in that 1 turn theres a chance you may miss, or even fail to wound.
in CC you can go a few rounds with it, and with a fist theres a good chance of killing it.
even a power wep works better than a melta.

JD21290 wrote:just a thing here to rule out melta fire against MC's:

you will get 1 shot max before it rushes your unit, in that 1 turn theres a chance you may miss, or even fail to wound.
in CC you can go a few rounds with it, and with a fist theres a good chance of killing it.
even a power wep works better than a melta.

But the very advantage of a melta gun over a plasma gun is that you can assault after firing it.

I have a twin-melta/P-fist CSM squad that routinely goes monstrous creature hunting. Firing the meltas before charging in with a powerfist is pretty deadly, even against tough CC targets like a Hive Tyrant.

erm, tyrants arent tough, they aspire to be a fex
but yea, with guards i spose it may make it harder to kill.

i was just simply saying that you cant rely on melta fire alone against a MC, it wont kill it.

oh, and against a BT, all those weps are screwed XD
inv. saved tend to ruin some amazing weps, allthough, chances are they wont be much to fight back once the BT starts attacking.

I guess if you fell back four times you have a chance at killing the MC with your trusted meltagun.

G

Deadshane1 wrote:The only monstrous creature you have a fighting chance of WINNING a combat against is a Wraithlord (or armour 12 dread), and that's if it whiffs.

Powerfists do NOT give you fighting chances against MC's with any sort of multiple attacks and mobility. Bloodthirsters, Tyrants, DaemonPrinces, or armour 13 dreads, you're not WINNING these combats. You have 2 attacks...generally hitting with one, wounding, then hoping the opponent fails his Invuln or hoping to get over armour 12/13...then running anyway because you have a better chance of wounding him during the shooting phase with multiple str 4 and melta.

I wasn't talking about winning a round of combat. I was refering to winning the combat overall. My large Fearless cult chaos squads will win in a combat against anything short of a Bloodthirster as they can absorb enough wounds to give a Powerfist the time to kill anything with 4 wounds or less.

If in the end my squad still exists and the MC/Walker does not, I call that winning the combat.

If one has combat tactics, then power fists become more of a luxury item. Are they good to have? Sure. It lets you do about 1 wound more, 1.5 on a charge, that people can't deal with. It gives you the possibility to squish T4 characters. However, they're expensive. I can think of other uses for the points I'd spend on fists. You many not even need them, particularly depending on how you build the rest of your army and how you deploy. For instance, my Iron Hands army has 6 dreads. Why would I need to spend 75 more points to put yet more powerfists on tac squads, when they can just run away and let the dreads handle tough things? Identify things that threaten your army in HTH and shoot them dead before they get there; if they get close, combat tactics away and fire some more.

However, if you replace combat tactics, then powerfists become slightly more important. Since you can't voluntarily fall back, it's important that your squads are able to do something should a nasty enemy get to you. This is particularly true if you play Lysander or Pedro and thus have Stubborn, meaning you'll likely never run. Anyone who's watched a dreadnought, for instance, tie up a squad of bloodletters, knows that having that extra chance to do something would at least make the dreadnought player think twice, even if he does do it in the end. Again, you can build the rest of your army around the tac squads, to see if you really need them, but it's something to be considered more.

Theres always the option of specifically kitting out a squad with obvious weaknesses so that out of three tacticals (for example), only one doesnt have a PF so you can actually plan or set up an ambush on the fact that the wraithlord (or other equivelent) would want to go after that fistless squad.

Voluntary fallback has its own inherent risk - that you will not be able to regroup. It is a last ditch maneuver.

G

Sorry Shane... I had your back for a lot of this thread and then I disappeared. Looks like you are getting a bit ganged up on.

Reecius wrote:I agree, the fist is pure insurance. It makes your opponant think tiwce before charging a tac squad.

And like almost all types of insurance. it is a scam and a rip-off, and best to avoid.

TheBloodGod wrote:You're delusional if you think that one melta makes you a match against tyranids.

I didn't see him say that.

TheBloodGod wrote:You're delusional if you think that 25 points isn't worth the difference between a carnifex with an ordinance weapon dying a turn earlier than otherwise.

Is it 25 points? Or is it 25 points per tactical squad? Bad players tend to let points get away from them with upgrades. When you bring an identical army as your opponent, but he has one more unit than you have. That means he equipped his units more economically, and likely out-built you.

TheBloodGod wrote:You're delusional if you think squads won't already have special weapons.

Deadshane has 75 more points to spend than you do if you run 3x tac marine squads. He'll spend his points on guns.

TheBloodGod wrote:Also, you fail to realize, having a powerfist does not force you to HtH. It is just that WHEN you get charged, you do extra damage, and can combat tactics away afterwords. With moderate luck, 3+ to hit 2+ to wound, you could take away half a dakkafex's wounds in one of your opponent's assault phases. If it's 113 points are 50% dead before your turn even starts, it's a lot more likely you'll be minus one annoying MC later.

I'm not interested in 'moderate luck'. How did you get charged by a dakkafex? He was moving 6" a turn. Did you have a rhino/razorback nearby to wall in/embark? Or did you just not have enough shooting to down him because you've spent way too many points ice-skating uphill?

TheBloodGod wrote:You need to stop arguing that marines Have to be tau. They're WS4 and S4 and I4 by default. This means they don't automatically have to bend over and lift up their skirts to any enemy unit with anything more than S3.

No but they shouldn't receive charges against monstrous creatures because they foolishly believe they have the 'answer'. They can whip crappy troops in CC, and they don't need a fist for that, just a rhino. Everything else, they should just use generalship and appropriate list construction to counter.

The units that end up on my side of the table when i'm playing serious 40k are not the kind of things that a tac squad can handle. tac squads aren't fire warriors... but really thats only because they can beat fire warriors in an assault. When facing nob bikers, blood crushers and assault terminators, I'm sorry, but there isn't really that much of a difference.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I guess if you fell back four times you have a chance at killing the MC with your trusted meltagun.

G

or fall back once with 4 meltaguns nearby.




ultimately, the side that is for power fists never mention their cost, and brings up their obvious ability to 'do' things. A lot of their anecdotes begin with "this one time, I killed x". The people that don't advocate fists just have better memories. For every "this one time..." anecdote, there are 10 games where your tacs never engaged in CC, or where they engaged a pushover unit, or were steamrolled by a true CC unit. The anti-fist crowd is just less distracted by "that one time".

Everything you all say about fists is true to an extent. Except the assumptions that tacs are a CC unit when they have it. Cost is the main issue here. If you say you just want it just in case you get outplayed, and charged by something you didn't want your tacs to be charged by... then maybe you could spend 35 on a rhino instead.

The thing about Deadshane is you never know when he is serious here or just trying to pull the wool over peep's eye for a laugh.

Shep a lot of your counter examples assume all battle conditions are in your favor... like 4 meltaguns nearby... that is a really BIG stretch there. A lot of the time it just ain't so. I play BA and I get a lot of easy wins against vanilla SM simply because I can blast right through their units in cc... even their SC get overwhelmed without sufficient support.

You don't need a power fist in every unit necessarily but it is a good idea to intersperse them amongst your units as a safety mechanism.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:
You don't need a power fist in every unit necessarily but it is a good idea to intersperse them amongst your units as a safety mechanism.

G

I find it a lot harder to argue against statements like that GBF. Not a 'blanket statement'. Implies moderation and sagacity. I think this is an appropriate time for 'agree to disagree'.

Here is a power fist army I just threw together. I have taken elements from other people's ideas.

Pedro Kantor

8x Sternguard/4x combi-melta
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

9x Sternguard/4x combi-melta
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

9x tactical Marine/multi-melta, meltagun
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

Ironclad dreadnaught/assault launchers, 2x HF
drop pod

Ironclad dreadnaught/assault launchers, 2x HF
drop pod

Landspeeder Typhoon/HB

Landspeeder Typhoon/HB

That is right around 1850. Drop one speeder to kick it back to 1750. This list can mow stuff down.

G

Well, except you do need that second Troops unit, even if your Sternguard are scoring units. Oh, and you currently have 4 elites choices.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Here is a power fist army I just threw together. I have taken elements from other people's ideas.

Pedro Kantor

8x Sternguard/4x combi-melta
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

9x Sternguard/4x combi-melta
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

9x tactical Marine/multi-melta, meltagun
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

Ironclad dreadnaught/assault launchers, 2x HF
drop pod

Ironclad dreadnaught/assault launchers, 2x HF
drop pod

Landspeeder Typhoon/HB

Landspeeder Typhoon/HB

That is right around 1850. Drop one speeder to kick it back to 1750. This list can mow stuff down.

G

My list doesn't have a single power fist in it. But I'm not fearing yours at all.

Don't get me wrong... I have sixteen models with strength 8 close combat attacks that ignore armor saves.

I guess its worth mentioning that my anti-fist tirade is closely linked with how i play space marines.

i certainly don't play horde marine gunline. If non drop pod transport vehicles were not heavily featured in a marine list, then i would suppose that they were going to need something. But lists like that aren't very good. they just happened to be very good in 4th edition.

Since vet segeant upgrades became mandatory not spending for something on the sergeant is largely a waste.

Fists are neither all nor nothing, expensive though they are they add a lot of variety to the capability of your basic units if you have the odd one or two.

I dont regret modelling half my sergeants with fists and the rest with power swords, its a versatile combo.

I would rather distribute the power fist than take one pipe hitting assault unit. That is why I like the Pedro list and with the SC all those units become a lot better in close combat.

G

It really depends on what else is in your army and what your using your tacticals for. I can see power fists being worth it for your tactical squads if you will be advancing to taking objectives with to prevent them from being stuck in or killed by a special character or put a wound on a big nasty as people mentioned. In Avariel's case I don't think they are worth it because she is running 10 Terminators with power fists unless she changed her list recently. Its really hard to say without seeing the rest of someone's list.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Here is a power fist army I just threw together. I have taken elements from other people's ideas.

Pedro Kantor

8x Sternguard/4x combi-melta
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

9x Sternguard/4x combi-melta
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

9x tactical Marine/multi-melta, meltagun
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

Ironclad dreadnaught/assault launchers, 2x HF
drop pod

Ironclad dreadnaught/assault launchers, 2x HF
drop pod

Landspeeder Typhoon/HB

Landspeeder Typhoon/HB

That is right around 1850. Drop one speeder to kick it back to 1750. This list can mow stuff down.

G

This army is illegal, 4 Elite Choices and Only 1 Troops Choice. If you wanted to spam power fists terminators are the way to do it.

Okay drop one ironclad for a heavy support. There should be two identical troop choices.

G

The thing about GBF is you never know when he is serious here or just trying to pull the wool over peep's eye for a laugh.


(post that list in defense of P-fists? Yeesh, I rest my case.)

I guess as a chaos player I've got a slightly different perspective, but my standard troops setup is as follows:

10 CSM Icon of Khorne, 2x flamer, Champ w/ fist

10 CSM Icon of Chaos Glory, 2x Melta, fist champ

6 noise marines, 5x sonic blasters, 1x blast master

10 CSM missile launcher plasma gun, icon glory

So for my two "forward" units that are likely to see action, and definitely be something that my opponent wants to fight I've got the fists.

For my two "reserve" units no fists.

For space marines I'd probably put fists into tactical squads with meltas, so I could run two mini-squads close together and have two fists and two meltas ready to fight in tandem.

willydstyle wrote:I guess as a chaos player I've got a slightly different perspective, but my standard troops setup is as follows:

10 CSM Icon of Khorne, 2x flamer, Champ w/ fist

10 CSM Icon of Chaos Glory, 2x Melta, fist champ

6 noise marines, 5x sonic blasters, 1x blast master

10 CSM missile launcher plasma gun, icon glory

So for my two "forward" units that are likely to see action, and definitely be something that my opponent wants to fight I've got the fists.

For my two "reserve" units no fists.

For space marines I'd probably put fists into tactical squads with meltas, so I could run two mini-squads close together and have two fists and two meltas ready to fight in tandem.

....and this is probably a decent way to use fists. 1 on a Berserker unit....(duh, str 9? Yes please), another on a unit that is betting on close combat, no problem.

....leaving the rest of the units a bit more trim utilising their points to the utmost. Not spending 25 pts on a fist "Just in case I get into combat". No, this is pretty much how to do it right.

Fist on every tactical squad however, no way. Tacticals are not close combat troops.

Don't forget: I have to spend 40 points on a fist because the champion's cost is separate, and not already included in the price of the squad.

For loyalists who are already in effect paying for the vet sarge, putting a couple of fists in is not that expensive, and I think still important. Bolt pistols+special weapon+possible combi-weapon+charge w/ fist is a pretty good way to do a lot of damage in one turn, even to tough targets. Those non-fist tactical attacks are still dangerous to a lot of pretty tough targets, quite possibly putting a wound on a monstrous creature before the fist even gets to go.

My BA pax nine power fists capable of acheiving S9. Just ask and I will show you anytime.

G

willydstyle wrote:Don't forget: I have to spend 40 points on a fist because the champion's cost is separate, and not already included in the price of the squad.

For loyalists who are already in effect paying for the vet sarge, putting a couple of fists in is not that expensive, and I think still important. Bolt pistols+special weapon+possible combi-weapon+charge w/ fist is a pretty good way to do a lot of damage in one turn, even to tough targets. Those non-fist tactical attacks are still dangerous to a lot of pretty tough targets, quite possibly putting a wound on a monstrous creature before the fist even gets to go.

Its also a great way to stack tons of points on a tactical squad. I cannot speak for the chaos dex as I havent been trying to take it apart since its release. It seems however, in a DEDICATED CC squad like berserkers, or in a chaos marine squad who are well equipped for CC with bolt pistol/ccw, that a 'fist is well in order if you plan on jumpin them into CC.

Tactical vanilla's however are a different story. They are not equipped for CC, and 25pts for a fist are better spent elsewhere considering what marines are MEANT to do. Tacticals are not MEANT to charge into CC as a plan of battle...they just arent that good at it, they're better at shooting. They're ESPECIALLY good at shooting if you give a combi-weapon to a Sergeant. What does its job better? A tactical squad with a Fist trying to fight in HtH? Or (again spending 25 pts) a Tactical squad with a plasma gun, combi-plasma, and a missle launcher shooting at the same target? Possibly within 12". It seems pretty obvious what the more sensible buy is here.

Perhaps a fist is a good choice for one vanilla tactical squad, but x4 with four tactical squads on the board? Seems more like poor judgement.

Green Blow Fly wrote:My BA pax nine power fists capable of acheiving S9. Just ask and I will show you anytime.

G

Oh jesus, who cares?

I think PF are worth it, makes me alittle hesitant before charging my carnifex in sometimes.

I don't see powerfist being useful, you can get 2 MM attack bikes for the price of 4 Powerfists...

LunaHound wrote:
I think PF are worth it, makes me alittle hesitant before charging my carnifex in sometimes.

Whats your carnifex for afraid of? Charging a unit capable of swinging twice at str 8, or being within 12 inches of two plasma guns and a Multi-Melta during their shooting phase? One can potentially kill a fresh carnifex, the other never will, both cost the same points.

Normally I don't throw a powerfist on tac squads. However, if I'm drop poding a tac squad I put either melta bombs or a powerfist on the sarge as there is a chance they might get charged by something big & nasty, or the'll have a better chance to get a penitrating hit on that tank they assault next turn.

However, I've never had more then 1 tac squad in a drop pod.

Deadshane1 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
I think PF are worth it, makes me alittle hesitant before charging my carnifex in sometimes.

Whats your carnifex for afraid of? Charging a unit capable of swinging twice at str 8, or being within 12 inches of two plasma guns and a Multi-Melta during their shooting phase? One can potentially kill a fresh carnifex, the other never will, both cost the same points.

As was said before, and still being said.

Having powerfists DOES NOT TAKE AWAY PLASMA GUNS OR HEAVIES.

You can actually do things like, get charged by a carnifex, wound it twice with your fist, run away, and then kill it with 1 or 2 nearby squads guns on your turn.

Shane keeps ranting like you won't have any plasma guns if you take powerfists. No. Powerfists are just 2-3 extra S8 ignores-armor attacks In Addition to your special guns and big guns.

Yes, you can get one melta bike for the cost of giving 2 tactical squads a total of 4 S8 attacks (6 on charge.)

That one melta bike is an extra kill point, can be killed with one shot, and serves a different purpose.

If you're bought 10 tactical marines, you've already spent points on the bodyguard. Might as well get several extra super attacks that the enemy has to kill all 10 of you before they can stop.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Traskel wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Shane face it you don't know how to play SM and the majority of the posters following this thread are thrashing you.

G

A majority of people in the United States are pretty dumb. That's a pretty poor argument for disproving someone, nice trolling though.

Besides, he's right, I dont know how to play Space Marines, as knowing how to play them in his book must mean wasting 200+ points on frivolous wargear that doenst enhance the squads fighting abilities that they already have. Playing Space Marines is paying the points for 10 guys so that a single one of them can fight. Playing Space Marines is trying to take the Vanilla Codex and make a Close Combat army with them when you could/should be using an army that is TRULY a close combat one if thats your thing. Playing space marines is going to baltimore and getting thrashed in the results concerning your codex.

He's right, I dont know how to play space marines. He knows how to do all the above better then me...along with trolling, and not really contributing to the discussion.

They're 25 points. Exaggerating doesn't prove any points.

If you were playing like WS2 S3 I3 tau w/o grenades then you could be an intellectual by saying "I don't want to spend a single point that'll get me any close-combat ability whatsoever"

You're already paying points for being decent-in-melee every single time you buy a marine. A powerfist is 25points for 2-3 super attacks which are stronger than a power weapon Captain or Chaplain's. You can afford five powerfists (10 attacks, 15 on charge) for the cost of one captain w/ a Fist (3 attacks, 4 on charge.)

Obviously 10-15 attacks S8 ignore armor save attacks at Ws4 are utterly frivolous. The great shane said so.

Marines should inflict 0 wounds every combat and then run away.

Compare 2 powerfists to an attack bike with MM over the course of the game.

>.> my carnifex sort of only have 2 attacks too lol.
with no ws upgrade either...

My chances of dying is pretty high too.

TheBloodGod wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
I think PF are worth it, makes me alittle hesitant before charging my carnifex in sometimes.

Whats your carnifex for afraid of? Charging a unit capable of swinging twice at str 8, or being within 12 inches of two plasma guns and a Multi-Melta during their shooting phase? One can potentially kill a fresh carnifex, the other never will, both cost the same points.

As was said before, and still being said.

Having powerfists DOES NOT TAKE AWAY PLASMA GUNS OR HEAVIES.

You can actually do things like, get charged by a carnifex, wound it twice with your fist, run away, and then kill it with 1 or 2 nearby squads guns on your turn.

Shane keeps ranting like you won't have any plasma guns if you take powerfists. No. Powerfists are just 2-3 extra S8 ignores-armor attacks In Addition to your special guns and big guns.

Yes, you can get one melta bike for the cost of giving 2 tactical squads a total of 4 S8 attacks (6 on charge.)

That one melta bike is an extra kill point, can be killed with one shot, and serves a different purpose.

If you're bought 10 tactical marines, you've already spent points on the bodyguard. Might as well get several extra super attacks that the enemy has to kill all 10 of you before they can stop.

My point is, you can have a tactical squad that is trim on points spent and still be more effective in many situations than a squad that dumps 25 whole points (the most expensive peice of wargear for the squad barring transports) on a peice of wargear that doesnt really do anything for the squads inherrent combat abilities.

Combi-weapons support the squad and what they're already capable and good at doing. Fists dont. Combi-weapons are cheap, fists arent. Power Weapons plug a close combat deficiancy in tactical squads...lightly enhancing them, powerfists do as well, but at a premium price.

When you put a fist on the Sergeant, he becomes the rock star of the squad, his specialty doest have anything to do with what the rest of the squad is designed to do....which is shoot, and be resiliant troops. All of a sudden, 9 other guys have to change their mission in order so he can use this 25pt peice of wargear. Those bolters that you spend all of that time gluing to your models and painting....yea, they become useless, along with the heavy weapon if you plan on charging. If you plan on needing a fist to fight off assaulters, you're going to be left holding the bag anyway because this expensive 2 attacks will not be telling against dedicated assaulters....you loose just like the squad with the powerfist, you just paid 25 more points to do so.

THAT is the point I'm trying to get across here. Saving points and being effective in combat. Not making a sergeant out to be a close combat specialist amongst a group of talented and resolute shooters. Instead, making that sergeant COMPLIMENT his squad and enhance what they already do well. Fists go in a direction that should be left to Assault marines, terminators, or CC characters. Why would you put an expensive 25pt peice of wargear in a unit that is meant to shoot?

1 powerfist sergeant out of 4-6 tactical squads, THAT I can see as a precaution. Fisting out every squad however is frivolous and careless army building in a Vanilla Marine army. Its like fitting a powerfist onto every availiable officer in an Imperial Guard army then adding in a unit of ogryns for good measure....you're spending points to do things that your army isnt meant to do or isnt good at in the first place.

I can explain this along with Shep until our heads explode. Just because we're getting "thrashed" by many other posters doesnt make them right. If you look at the most elaborate contributions to this thread explaining positions and arguing veiwpoints, I think you find that the best arguements so far are given by myself and others that dont beleive in fists 'en masse'. Then you've got GBF posting mess like "My BA's have 9 fists and if you dont beleive its awesome I'll see you on the table."....which doesnt help the original poster make a decision.

I'm talking about smart army building here. There are better places in a Space Marine army for close combat counter assault, and the Space Marine Codex is not a close combat army

TheBloodGod wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Traskel wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Shane face it you don't know how to play SM and the majority of the posters following this thread are thrashing you.

G

A majority of people in the United States are pretty dumb. That's a pretty poor argument for disproving someone, nice trolling though.

Besides, he's right, I dont know how to play Space Marines, as knowing how to play them in his book must mean wasting 200+ points on frivolous wargear that doenst enhance the squads fighting abilities that they already have. Playing Space Marines is paying the points for 10 guys so that a single one of them can fight. Playing Space Marines is trying to take the Vanilla Codex and make a Close Combat army with them when you could/should be using an army that is TRULY a close combat one if thats your thing. Playing space marines is going to baltimore and getting thrashed in the results concerning your codex.

He's right, I dont know how to play space marines. He knows how to do all the above better then me...along with trolling, and not really contributing to the discussion.

They're 25 points. Exaggerating doesn't prove any points.

If you were playing like WS2 S3 I3 tau w/o grenades then you could be an intellectual by saying "I don't want to spend a single point that'll get me any close-combat ability whatsoever"

You're already paying points for being decent-in-melee every single time you buy a marine. A powerfist is 25points for 2-3 super attacks which are stronger than a power weapon Captain or Chaplain's. You can afford five powerfists (10 attacks, 15 on charge) for the cost of one captain w/ a Fist (3 attacks, 4 on charge.)

Obviously 10-15 attacks S8 ignore armor save attacks at Ws4 are utterly frivolous. The great shane said so.

Marines should inflict 0 wounds every combat and then run away.

I fail to see why you guys are getting apparently so angry with me and my stance on powerfists being overexpedatures when purchased multiple times on tac squads.

Some of you need to calm down. This is a tactical discussion, people are going to disagree.

"Just because the Great Shane said so" is what I'd expect from a grade school kid. Not someone intelligent enough to weigh in the pros/cons of powerfists.


...oh, and tacticals arent "decent in melee" they stink at it, thats part of my whole point. An assault marine is "decent" as would be a chaos marine with bp/ccw, or gaunts with many attacks, ork boys are decent at melee, these things are decent. Marines are resiliant, that doenst make them "decent at melee" it makes them RESILIANT.

Deadshane1 wrote:

TheBloodGod wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
I think PF are worth it, makes me alittle hesitant before charging my carnifex in sometimes.

Whats your carnifex for afraid of? Charging a unit capable of swinging twice at str 8, or being within 12 inches of two plasma guns and a Multi-Melta during their shooting phase? One can potentially kill a fresh carnifex, the other never will, both cost the same points.

As was said before, and still being said.

Having powerfists DOES NOT TAKE AWAY PLASMA GUNS OR HEAVIES.

You can actually do things like, get charged by a carnifex, wound it twice with your fist, run away, and then kill it with 1 or 2 nearby squads guns on your turn.

Shane keeps ranting like you won't have any plasma guns if you take powerfists. No. Powerfists are just 2-3 extra S8 ignores-armor attacks In Addition to your special guns and big guns.

Yes, you can get one melta bike for the cost of giving 2 tactical squads a total of 4 S8 attacks (6 on charge.)

That one melta bike is an extra kill point, can be killed with one shot, and serves a different purpose.

If you're bought 10 tactical marines, you've already spent points on the bodyguard. Might as well get several extra super attacks that the enemy has to kill all 10 of you before they can stop.

My point is, you can have a tactical squad that is trim on points spent and still be more effective in many situations than a squad that dumps 25 whole points (the most expensive peice of wargear for the squad barring transports) on a peice of wargear that doesnt really do anything for the squads inherrent combat abilities.

Combi-weapons support the squad and what they're already capable and good at doing. Fists dont. Combi-weapons are cheap, fists arent. Power Weapons plug a close combat deficiancy in tactical squads...lightly enhancing them, powerfists do as well, but at a premium price.

"Doesn't really do anything for the squads inherrent combat abilities"

Man is that wrong. You keep saying that adding 2-3 S8 armor-ignoring attacks "doesn't improve their combat ability"

I'll let you know that the ability to kill 2-3 more nob bikers than they would otherwise is a large increase in combat ability.

A squad doesn't shoot any weaker if the sergeant is carrying a fist. It just is able to kill a few more models when the enemy assaults it, which they would try to, since it is a squad good at shooting.

Combi-weapons are nice, albeit they can only be shot once in the entire game.

Obviously, when you're list building, you have to first focus on the units that are required for your game plan. If your game plan involves 3-6 dreadnaughts and 9 attack bikes, then you might forego buying any fists.

It's also true there are many times that it'd be better to add 16-24 extra powerfist attacks to your troops than to add one ven. dread with a TL Lascannon and TL Autocannon. They are apples and oranges different. And one choice can die in one lucky meltagun shot.

shane you are rigid in your stance on Marines in general. You have stated that the army is not meant to be played as a close combat force. This is why people are slagging you In general. Space Marines can be one of the most well rounded armies. There is no reason why a tactical squad should be solely delegated to the task of shooting. I see no reason why 25 points per tactical squad is going to make or break any Space Marine army in general. A lot of people here simply don't want to play the army the way you advocate it should be played. Are you offering us theory hammer or is your advice based on a lot of experience? Theory often goes up in smoke. There is no reason not to field a balanced army. As I have said I see SM armies geared towards static shooting as an easy win against. They are one dimensional but look good on paper to those who don't know better. 5e is all about mobility and voluntary fallback is not winning games.

G

I'm also inclined to agree with Deadshane here is some respects.

Space Marines are primarily a shooting army especially tacticals squads their main role as i see it is giving support fire and taking objectives (especially in 5th). In 4th ed all my tac squads were 5 man Las/Plas and now the build tends to be 10 marines sarge with PW, melta and missile at 190pts (225 with a rhino) its an effective anti anything unit. But Tacticals are a shooting unit, you just have to give them the mobility to do so, having 3 rhinos with 30 marines jumping out of them is never good for the person on the receiving end of it, they can fight in combat, but in the marine army their are just so many things that are better at it than them

However of course that doesn't mean that powerfists don't have their uses, I run a 10 man assault squad with a fist with Shrike, this gives the unit a large punch and is still cheap and effective.

Maxing out on powerfists isn't always great and i find with the newer space marine book they have to be used sparingly or else you won't be able to build and effective army as your troops cost so much for little added benefit, of course i don't want my tactical squads in combat i want them taking objectives and shooting, but perhaps in Sternguard squad to give them a chance to cause at least one guaranteed wound if they get trapped or in an assault unit running with an IC (lets face it from the IC they can already have a power weapon of some description).

Of course in units like Plague Marines your I3 already so striking last really isnt an issue.

Obviously powerfists have value, and just as obviously building a list around them is a waste of time. As another posters pointed out, compare buying two fists to a single MM attack bike: It's almost dead even!

The bike adds another unit, a fast moving model, and a viable anti-tank threat. It also coughs up another kill point, is fairly fragile, and is only of real use at extreme close range. The fists are good for all the reasons listed above.

Yes, units that are fat with upgrades mean less units on the table, but lean isn't always good. You want to cut fat, but powerfists are muscle. One list with two powerfists compared to one with a MM Attack Bike isn't necessarily better or worse than the other.

And of course powerfists aren't going to turn a tactical squad into an assault capable squad. What it does do is make it far more likely that a tactical squad can finish off an enemy squad in combat. Yes, it's an insurance policy but with transport that squad is going to be where it needs to be, and a powerfist can hurt anything.

What is clear is that unlike 4th, you don't need the fists in large tactical squads. Combat Tactics at least gives you a chance to get away (although the enemy still needs to botch it's sweeping advance) and Krak grenades make SMs much better against most vehicles.

So, like I said earlier, I think that the best builds in the SM codex will most likely eschew powerfists for more beef elsewhere. Any list built around mechanized tactical squads will still find value in them.

Green Blow Fly wrote:shane you are rigid in your stance on Marines in general. You have stated that the army is not meant to be played as a close combat force. This is why people are slagging you In general. Space Marines can be one of the most well rounded armies. There is no reason why a tactical squad should be solely delegated to the task of shooting. I see no reason why 25 points per tactical squad is going to make or break any Space Marine army in general. A lot of people here simply don't want to play the army the way you advocate it should be played. Are you offering us theory hammer or is your advice based on a lot of experience? Theory often goes up in smoke. There is no reason not to field a balanced army. As I have said I see SM armies geared towards static shooting as an easy win against. They are one dimensional but look good on paper to those who don't know better. 5e is all about mobility and voluntary fallback is not winning games.

G

Did I ever say "Static shooting army?" I didnt think so.

I tend to look at marines like people tend to look at eldar. Certain units have different missions, in order for the army to succeed as a whole those units need to be as good as they can be in their designed mission and leave the other missions up to units that are meant to take them on. Are the purposes of particular units in the marine dex as clear cut as they are in the ELDAR dex? Absolutly not! Marines are still Jack of all Trades, but that doenst mean that you cannot look at any particular unit and tell what roles in combat it will be better at. Tacticals are obviously better at shooting than HtH....that tells me that you're better off spending points for the unit to shoot better, and leave the 25pt powerfist to a unit more designed to use it....say an Assault squad that plans on hitting close combat.

Marines are a well rounded army, I dont argue this, but it doenst necessarily mean that you automatically bring powerfists into the battle. What can tacticals beat in close combat? REALLY beat in close combat? Tau, Guardsmen, smaller units of orks? Powerfists dont really help in these scenarios as basic marines can smash these units without str 8. Any units you would NEED a powerfist to take on are better handled by shooting at them, spending the points in firepower, and leaving the close combat to units that its actually useful in....thats why we have Combat Tactics now.

You seemt to think GBF that I dont know anything about marines since for the last several years I've been playing sisters, DH's, and Eldar. I've been playing this game for a long time and in fact have collected several Marine armies in the past as well. I also know what to be afraid of in a marine army as an opponent...so yes, I'm talking from experience. I'm of the opinion that Powerfists are a dubious choice in a tactical squad at best, frivilous expenditure at worst.

Static shooting....I never said marines were a static shooting army.

I know where Shep and DS1 are coming from based on their armies. I'd be curious to see what armies the pro-fist guys are using (other then GBF, no offense, just know what your POV is). In revamping my Salamanders I've come to similar conclusions as Shep, I'd rather rely on 10 terminators for heavy lifting then pour more points into my tacticals. However I have plans for a list that has sternguard instead of all those terminators and in that list fists are tempting.

Any event, curious where other's are coming from in their POV as far as the lists they run.

My position: Power fists aren't worth it.

Reasoning:

You pay 25 points for a model with 2 attacks that should never even be in combat in the first place, as he's got 4-9 1 attack pricey models with him without power weapons. Anything you'll kill in assault with this unit you could just as easily kill by double tapping into it with your bolters (Tau, Sisters of battle, Eldar, etc.). Anything else you're taking the "powerfist in preparation for" will romp you regardless of the powerfist, and this is the only time its even useful, and here's why:

PW -> 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, 1 dead model (Versus T4)
PF -> 2 attacks, 1.2 hit, 1 wound, 1 dead model (Versus T4)

PW -> 3 attacks, 2 hit, 1.33 wounds, 1.33 dead models (Versus T3)
PF -> 2 attacks, 1.2 hit, 1 wound, 1 dead model (Versus T3)

Against T3 models the PW is better for 10 less points, against T4 its identical.

Now the opposing side goes: But against XXXX model the PW falls short. And yes, against t5 + it does perform worse progressively. However, T5 is typically located on dedicated CC units (MC's, Bloodcrushers, Nob bikers, Wraithlords) that you'll likely lose against anyways, when you could just have played better and not eaten a charge against that dedicated unit.

Then others will say "you can't always prevent being charged!" and this is true. However you have to realize you spend ~100 points on fists every game you play them, and run into that situation only a couple times during a tournament. In all of those other games, you're handicapping yourself a 100 points.

As shane said its just not the best way to spend your money.

People got too used to having powerfists as their ace's last edition, and now are loathe to let go of their "this makes my army more forgiving of my bad generalship" buttons. This editon they lose an attack and the marine units they're in are less customizeable to make them decent in CC. This edition, your tactical marines suck in CC. No way round it.

Sure you can take tau, but you could also just as easily bolter tau.
Sure you could charge your enemies marines, but you could also just as easily BOLTER his marines.

10 marines, shooting the two above units:

20 shots, 14 hits, 9 wounds, 4.5 dead tau.
20 shots, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 2.3 dead marines.

10 Marines charging the two above units.
20 attacks, 14 hits, 9 wounds, 4.5 dead tau (NO PF)
18 attacks, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 4 dead tau, plus 2 PF attacks, 1.3 hits, 1 wound, 1 dead Tau (With PF -> .5 more dead tau)
20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 2 dead marines (NO PF)
18 attacks, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 1.5 dead marines, plus 2 PF attacks, 1 hit, 5/6 wounds, .8 dead marines (With PF -> 2.3 dead marines)

Now lets compare that...

IF you shoot those marines, you kill 2.3, assuming you bought ZERO special weapons, if you charge them, you kill an IDENTICAL amount fo 25 more points, and taking attacks back

IF you shoot those Tau, you kill 4.5 Tau, if you CHARGE those tau, you kill 5 tau (0.5 more!), take attacks back, and spent 25 more points.


Its just not worth it. If you actually put in say, 2 plasma and a combi melta to the above example, it'd get even sillier looking to buy the power fist.

No one is saying "marines can't do CC". They're a balanced force, they always have been. But the point is, making your models jacks of all trades is called overupgrading, and its the easiest way to build a bad list. If you want powerfists/CC ability, don't do it with your tacticals, give the points to buying units MEANT for close combat, and use these well enough to protect your tacticals.

targetawg wrote:Mathhammer

There's gotta be a better use of a Friday night...

It's either that or finish writing my abstract due to the symposium by midnight.

And besides, you READ and responding to it on a friday night.

Pshaw i say!

targetawg wrote:My position: Power fists aren't worth it.

Reasoning:

You pay 25 points for a model with 2 attacks that should never even be in combat in the first place, as he's got 4-9 1 attack pricey models with him without power weapons. Anything you'll kill in assault with this unit you could just as easily kill by double tapping into it with your bolters (Tau, Sisters of battle, Eldar, etc.). Anything else you're taking the "powerfist in preparation for" will romp you regardless of the powerfist, and this is the only time its even useful, and here's why:

PW -> 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, 1 dead model (Versus T4)
PF -> 2 attacks, 1.2 hit, 1 wound, 1 dead model (Versus T4)

PW -> 3 attacks, 2 hit, 1.33 wounds, 1.33 dead models (Versus T3)
PF -> 2 attacks, 1.2 hit, 1 wound, 1 dead model (Versus T3)

Against T3 models the PW is better for 10 less points, against T4 its identical.

Now the opposing side goes: But against XXXX model the PW falls short. And yes, against t5 + it does perform worse progressively. However, T5 is typically located on dedicated CC units (MC's, Bloodcrushers, Nob bikers, Wraithlords) that you'll likely lose against anyways, when you could just have played better and not eaten a charge against that dedicated unit.

Then others will say "you can't always prevent being charged!" and this is true. However you have to realize you spend ~100 points on fists every game you play them, and run into that situation only a couple times during a tournament. In all of those other games, you're handicapping yourself a 100 points.

As shane said its just not the best way to spend your money.

People got too used to having powerfists as their ace's last edition, and now are loathe to let go of their "this makes my army more forgiving of my bad generalship" buttons. This editon they lose an attack and the marine units they're in are less customizeable to make them decent in CC. This edition, your tactical marines suck in CC. No way round it.

Sure you can take tau, but you could also just as easily bolter tau.
Sure you could charge your enemies marines, but you could also just as easily BOLTER his marines.

10 marines, shooting the two above units:

20 shots, 14 hits, 9 wounds, 4.5 dead tau.
20 shots, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 2.3 dead marines.

10 Marines charging the two above units.
20 attacks, 14 hits, 9 wounds, 4.5 dead tau (NO PF)
18 attacks, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 4 dead tau, plus 2 PF attacks, 1.3 hits, 1 wound, 1 dead Tau (With PF -> .5 more dead tau)
20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 2 dead marines (NO PF)
18 attacks, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 1.5 dead marines, plus 2 PF attacks, 1 hit, 5/6 wounds, .8 dead marines (With PF -> 2.3 dead marines)

Now lets compare that...

IF you shoot those marines, you kill 2.3, assuming you bought ZERO special weapons, if you charge them, you kill an IDENTICAL amount fo 25 more points, and taking attacks back

IF you shoot those Tau, you kill 4.5 Tau, if you CHARGE those tau, you kill 5 tau (0.5 more!), take attacks back, and spent 25 more points.


Its just not worth it. If you actually put in say, 2 plasma and a combi melta to the above example, it'd get even sillier looking to buy the power fist.

No one is saying "marines can't do CC". They're a balanced force, they always have been. But the point is, making your models jacks of all trades is called overupgrading, and its the easiest way to build a bad list. If you want powerfists/CC ability, don't do it with your tacticals, give the points to buying units MEANT for close combat, and use these well enough to protect your tacticals.

CHA-CHING!

another quality post from the 'NO' camp. This time with mathhammer.

Getting thrashed verbally doenst mean much when you've got math and logic on your side.

Deadshane1, Green Blow Fly and TheBloodDod:

Your posts have been edited or removed due to needless insulting.

Please focus on the discussion at hand or refrain from posting.

yakface wrote:
Deadshane1, Green Blow Fly and TheBloodDod:

Your posts have been edited or removed due to needless insulting.

Please focus on the discussion at hand or refrain from posting.

Thats all I've been trying to do....

Good to see some actual math about it; as stated before the point cost and role is just completely slowed.


I'd rather save some points and get a Razorback, but that is just me.

targetawg wrote:It's either that or finish writing my abstract due to the symposium by midnight.

And besides, you READ and responding to it on a friday night.

Pshaw i say!

My wife's playing the Wii, so this is all I can do since the Wii and 360 are on the same TV and we have no money to go out. Bills suck...

This question comes up so much we need to stickie one of these arguements and then make it mandatory reading to post on the forums.

targetawg wrote:IF you shoot those Tau, you kill 4.5 Tau, if you CHARGE those tau, you kill 5 tau (0.5 more!), take attacks back, and spent 25 more points.

Bad example here. I use power weapons in my tactical squads instead of fists however, I would always choose to charge into Tau rather than rapid fire them. What you fail to mention is that marines will most likely beat Tau in hand to hand, rout them and wipe them out. So really it's more like 14 dead Tau rahter than 4 or 5. And if they don't run then you are locked in combat and can't be shot at in the next Tau turn. This is a huge difference. The only time I'd rapid fire at a Tau squad is if I was within 12" but I ddn't have the movement to assault them. In this situation I would not be looking forward to their return fire. When I'm facing Tau, my tactical squads become assault squads. Closing to rapid fire range and trading fire with the Tau is a not a good idea.

As for my opinion on power fists? They are nice to have but I don't take them in order to save points. I've got 10 Terminators and 10 Assault marines. These guys do the close combat thing while my tac squads are mostly objective holders and shooters. However, I could see the benefit of someone taking power fists for thier tac squads depending on thier play style, the army composition and their most likely opponents.

holden88 wrote:

targetawg wrote:IF you shoot those Tau, you kill 4.5 Tau, if you CHARGE those tau, you kill 5 tau (0.5 more!), take attacks back, and spent 25 more points.

Bad example here. I use power weapons in my tactical squads instead of fists however, I would always choose to charge into Tau rather than rapid fire them. What you fail to mention is that marines will most likely beat Tau in hand to hand, rout them and wipe them out. So really it's more like 14 dead Tau rahter than 4 or 5. And if they don't run then you are locked in combat and can't be shot at in the next Tau turn. This is a huge difference. The only time I'd rapid fire at a Tau squad is if I was within 12" but I ddn't have the movement to assault them. In this situation I would not be looking forward to their return fire. When I'm facing Tau, my tactical squads become assault squads. Closing to rapid fire range and trading fire with the Tau is a not a good idea.

As for my opinion on power fists? They are nice to have but I don't take them in order to save points. I've got 10 Terminators and 10 Assault marines. These guys do the close combat thing while my tac squads are mostly objective holders and shooters. However, I could see the benefit of someone taking power fists for thier tac squads depending on thier play style, the army composition and their most likely opponents.

You missed the point. The example was just done to show that with the powerfist in the squad, your combat results against a tau unit (or a sm unit) really don't change, and that in most cases, you can kill just as many by double tapping. It's not to say tactically that Im suggesting every marine player walk in front of tau (or any enemy with superior firepower) and trade simply trade shots.

In my example (and yours) you could buy that powerfist or not buy it, you'd still get the exact same result against tau as far as what happens when you charge. You either kill 5 and wipe them out due to combat res, or they stick and you don't get shot. The powerfist doesn't affect this (except by 0.5 casualties in combat, in exchange for 25 points).

And keep in mind as I said, that example didn't include the points spent on the powerfist turning into 2 plasma guns and a combi melta either in the shooting phase.

A power fist versus Tau is a bad example. The power fist shines against other units such as walkers and MC to name only a couple.

G

I think it's a fallacy to use mathhammer comparisons to other marines to show why a power fist is weak in tactical squads. THe thing is, there are too many things in the game that can only be hurt by powerfists that you can't really stop completely with shooting. Nob bikers is one example, but it's not the only one. Terminators, wraith guard, plague marines, monstrous creatures, nobs, Deep striking oblits, independent characters, etc etc. get stopped by the power fist. No fist means that if such units get to hand to hand with the tactical squad, the squad folds. And it happens. A lot. A dreadnought drop pods down. You shoot it and don't kill it. Now your squads are filled with fail because the dreadnought owns them. I think if you combat squad a lot the fist isn't really vital. But if you keep them as a 10 man juicy target they better have something to deal with a monster like a daemon prince. Also, a large part of the game is about holding objectives. Close combat is a necessary evil, even ify ou don't want to be in hth, since the enemy needs to take your objective, he's gonna be coming for you.

scuddman wrote:I think it's a fallacy to use mathhammer comparisons to other marines to show why a power fist is weak in tactical squads. THe thing is, there are too many things in the game that can only be hurt by powerfists that you can't really stop completely with shooting. Nob bikers is one example, but it's not the only one. Terminators, wraith guard, plague marines, monstrous creatures, nobs, Deep striking oblits, independent characters, etc etc. get stopped by the power fist. No fist means that if such units get to hand to hand with the tactical squad, the squad folds. And it happens. A lot. A dreadnought drop pods down. You shoot it and don't kill it. Now your squads are filled with fail because the dreadnought owns them. I think if you combat squad a lot the fist isn't really vital. But if you keep them as a 10 man juicy target they better have something to deal with a monster like a daemon prince. Also, a large part of the game is about holding objectives. Close combat is a necessary evil, even ify ou don't want to be in hth, since the enemy needs to take your objective, he's gonna be coming for you.

If close combat is a necessary evil, you dont use Tacticals to do it...that's my point.

Until people start charging me with ratling squads SUCCESSFULLY, I'll be sticking to that point.

Fist? fine. CC with marines? GREAT! All I'm saying is choose your tools correctly. Fist-assault squad, Combi weapon-tacticals, its that simple.

Or are you guys thinking that a Krootox in a squad of firewarriors is a good idea? (assuming it was possible of course)

Well, that depends on army list design. If you take tacticals as troops and then max out on shooty stuff, then no fist = fail. If you take assault squads, terminators, close combat dreads, etc. then I can't advocate taking a fist. If you play mech marines, it's just bad news to not have a power fist that close to the enemy.
If the context is the tactical is shooty, hanging back, and something else like assault squad has fists, then fine, that makes sense.

However, that's not the only way to play tactical marines, or marines in general.

Really, the only thing tacticals do well is score. They're just as bad at shooting as they are at close combat. 10 guys one heavy weapon? Yeah, that gets outshot by guardians....

scuddman wrote:
Really, the only thing tacticals do well is score. They're just as bad at shooting as they are at close combat. 10 guys one heavy weapon? Yeah, that gets outshot by guardians....

Personally, I see Tacticals as being MUCH worse in HtH than shooting.

HtH...the only one that can be equipped to fight is the sergeant...the other 9 marines are left sucking hind teat.

Shooting....5pt melta, MM, combi-melta....these tacticals have a shooting mission that they're really GOOD at
.....Plasma, combi plasma, plasma cannon add bolters; Flamer, combi-flamer, add bolters. no, tacticals can be outfitted to shoot actually pretty darn well.

Besides scoring, and being at least DECENT in shooting vice sucking in HtH, Tacticals are also resiliant (again, this doesnt make them good at HtH as some people think, it only makes them resiliant) and have good leadership (adding to resiliancy)

Tactical ability for creative maneuvering is enhanced by Combat Tactics.


Tacticals can do much more than just score. Some of it they can also be competant at. Tacticals are NOT competant at HtH.

Massed attacks win games and tacticals are good at that. SC like Pedro Kantor make tacticals a good close combat unit. Some of us understand.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Massed attacks win games and tacticals are good at that. SC like Pedro Kantor make tacticals a good close combat unit. Some of us understand.

G

If you're going to use Kantor to help out....doesnt he help out assault marines or close combat command squads more? Just because he's around doesnt automatically make tacticals good at combat.

Would you rather have Kantor helping out a unit of Genestealers or guardsmen with lasguns? (hypothetically speaking) Just because he makes the Guardsmen fight better doesnt all of a sudden mean that guardsmen are great in close combat. You'd be better off making sure he's close enough to support some genestealers if thats your thing.

"Some of us understand"...cute, but you consistantly ignore the logic. Tacticals are NOT hand to hand fighters.

...besides, arent people are starting to realise that Kantor actually ISNT that great and special characters arent the 'be all and end all' of the Marine codex. Lynchpins like him that you build army strategies around are pretty easy to pull you know. What happens to your grand strategy with cantor once he take a fist to the face himself, or a vindicator shot splatters him all over creation? Looky there, your tacticals totally suck once again in CC....not that they were any good in the first place.

You're right, some of us DO understand.

An army has to have troops in it. Space Marine tactical squads are troops, shoot well, and are decent in close combat, (as all marines are) and if you are going to use alot of them, it wouldn't hurt to have Kantor anchoring the line so to speak. He makes all your marines less likely to run, and he gives them all an extra attack, pretty handing when standing on an objective.

My thinking is that this would be the type of SAFH army that would really benefit from Kantor, as he makes the marines tougher, is a decent counter-assault unit in and of himself, and makes your dedicated counter assault units better.

Uhmmmm guardsmen... I don't know what you are onto this morning.

If I used Pedro I would rather assault with tactical squads than say Sternguard. Tactical Marine are in many ways a better unit than assault Marines. It's better if you don't have to assault with your tactical Marines but sometimes it can't be avoided.

G

targetawg wrote:Now the opposing side goes: But against XXXX model the PW falls short. And yes, against t5 + it does perform worse progressively. However, T5 is typically located on dedicated CC units (MC's, Bloodcrushers, Nob bikers, Wraithlords) that you'll likely lose against anyways, when you could just have played better and not eaten a charge against that dedicated unit.

Then others will say "you can't always prevent being charged!" and this is true. However you have to realize you spend ~100 points on fists every game you play them, and run into that situation only a couple times during a tournament. In all of those other games, you're handicapping yourself a 100 points.

As shane said its just not the best way to spend your money.

I do love being able to self-quote..

Who runs four tactical squads? You are talking about not using points well. Three tactical squads are plenty.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Who runs four tactical squads? You are talking about not using points well. Three tactical squads are plenty.

G

You completely missed the point of the quote.





You arent even trying to understand what we're telling you.

For me the powerfist if a worthy upgrade.. after the tacticals heavy weapons, special weapons & combi-meltas.

If you dont decide to get any combis, for example, power sword all the way!

Out of say three tacticals.. get two rhinos with standard fare and one razorback with a lascannon, flamer/combi flamer & a pfist.

Three tacticals equiped and played well is the brillaint thing about Sm tacticals.. they can comprise a very solid core.. Unlike guardains, guard or gaunts.

If you say that you can take a landraider because your six tactical squads don't have power fists then good for you.

And yes I agree with Razerous - the tactical squad is one of the best scoring units.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:If you say that you can take a landraider because your six tactical squads don't have power fists then good for you.

And yes I agree with Razerous - the tactical squad is one of the best scoring units.

G

As shane said, you completely missed the point.

Instead of wasting 100 points on pfists, you waste 75. Woo. Its the same idea.

And 2: 6 tactical powerfists = 150, Landraider = 250

No one's saying tactical squads aren't one of the best scoring units. We're saying there are more optimal ways to load them out.

But apparently a lot of people here don't agree with you. That was my point, which you missed, and I don't mean it in a derisive or hostile fashion.

G

I've been following this thread for a while and I have to side with Shane.
Typically I gear my Tactical Squads to counter my opponent, but most often I take them with a missile launcher (free and flexible), a razorback normally with TL-lascannon and a special weapon and combi weapon that match my opponent best:
Deathwing: plasma
Greentide: flamer
Armored Company: melta
Of course that's a gross simplification and isn't always possible in tourneys, but in that case I take a balanced approach with each squad having a different pairing.
Also, depending on point allowances I give my sarge a power sword and don't bother with the exceedingly expensive powerfist.
I then break my squad up at the start of the game. Using the razorback to block LOS and contribute anti-tank/heavy infantry fire while my missile launcher fires frag or krak depending on need, and my sarge and special weapon move up to take objectives, kill vehicles or shoot and assault targets of opportunity or tie up CC units threatening my heavy weapons in the rear. Anywhere there is heavy CC going on, I know this 5 man crew is hamburger and to keep them away or make sure they die in someway that benefits me and I bring the termies or dreadnoughts in.
Basically the way I look at it is this: if you have a crowbar and a claw hammer, that claw hammer can be used to pry something open or off, but it'll never do the job as well as a crowbar and that crowbar can be used to beat nails in, but never as good as a claw hammer, so if you have room in your toolbox, bring both. Bring a CC unit capable of going toe-to-toe with MCs and dedicated CC units that make it to your tactical squads, don't attempt to use your tactical squads as anything but a stop gap to hold them up until you can get your heavy hitters in place

I am curious why you consider the fist to be exceedingly expensive when it only costs 10 more points than a power sword (which often bounces). Could you list one of your combined arms approach armies please?

G

Isnt PF just an insurance wargear then?
Just like taking lascannon vs missle lancher
one can argue its possible one might not ran into lots
of vehicle thus always only take missles o_-

Both sides both have valid points , just on how they play and how they choose to invest in insurance.

A flyrant with warp field will laugh at you while it claws your face off after 4 krak missiles have bounced off its 2+ save.

There are more unit types than just infantry & vehicles.

Deadshane1 wrote:As far as vehicles, Krak grenades do just fine considering rear armour and 10 attacks (especially considering that they're free!). If armour 14 is your problem (land raiders) powerfists arent going to help you that much, but a melta bomb on the sergeant might. I keep hearing people say how good fists are in vehicular close combat. I think the better weapons/abilities are krak/melta and combat tactics against dreads....but thats just me.

Remember: All greandes usually hit on 6's, so 1 sarg with a melta is IMHO not worth it ae...

Pfist are good in fights against walkers where, without, you may not rolls that 6, 6 and then a decent roll on the damage chart.

Otherwise krak grenades are good against slow/stopped vehicles.

Melta bombs.. stun a vehicle, bomb a vehicle. Offensive weapons.

adielubbe wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:As far as vehicles, Krak grenades do just fine considering rear armour and 10 attacks (especially considering that they're free!). If armour 14 is your problem (land raiders) powerfists arent going to help you that much, but a melta bomb on the sergeant might. I keep hearing people say how good fists are in vehicular close combat. I think the better weapons/abilities are krak/melta and combat tactics against dreads....but thats just me.

Remember: All greandes usually hit on 6's, so 1 sarg with a melta is IMHO not worth it ae...

P-fists hit on 6's too against vehicles then...sure you get more attacks but the melta is a guaranteed pen against armour 10. Its a trade off, but you pay 20 more points for the fist. 20 more points for two attacks, when you consider vehicles. I'd call this comparison a wash.

Dread? Combat Tactics then melta/combi melta. Easier kill than with a fist and much cheaper/efficient. Why is it more efficient, because the squad is doing what it is supposed to do/better at, shooting. Likely the dread isnt far enough across the board to escort you off. If it is...you made a mistake.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I am curious why you consider the fist to be exceedingly expensive when it only costs 10 more points than a power sword (which often bounces). Could you list one of your combined arms approach armies please?

G

This point, I think, has already been argued in the thread, but a sergeant by himself with no gear would be a 26 pt model (90-(4x16)=26) , adding a power sword adds 15 pts making him a 41 pt model, barely more than a terminator. That's ok if you happen to have 15 pts lying around and you expect high armor save models in your opponents army and thats the only time I worry about power weapons in tactical squads, is if I have the spare points. I'm not going to cut back else where for it. Now a powerfist in my opinion is out right a waste on a sarge except as insurance. My opinion of insurance has always been that when you buy insurance you're betting you're going to let something bad happen to yourself. So, I try to bet that I can avoid the situation by having more options else where on the table. In my experience the only way I've kept MCs in control is to sit back and shoot them to death or swarm them with powerfist, which point for point terminators do much better than a few combat squads led by powerfist hefting sergeants.

As far as how my lists typically go its somehting like:
Random HQ of the week (I can rarely stick with just one for more than one game unless league or tourney rules limit it, as I like variety)
At least 2 full tactical squads as described above, tailoring for opponent if allowed.
1-2 full units of terminators with cyclone launchers (more flexible for the points than assault cannons due to 5ed rending and now being 2 shots)
0-1 unit of assault terminators
1-2 triple lascannon predators
The rest of the points go wherever.. In 4ed it almost inevitably went to attack bikes, but 5ed made them easy KP, so now left overs go to upgrades that I typically don't take until afterwards (powerswords, extra armor, pintle storm bolters, etc. etc.)
Sometimes if I'm feeling a wild hair I'll throw in a unit of devastators with either missile launchers or lascannons, depending on the situation.

Razerous wrote:A flyrant with warp field will laugh at you while it claws your face off after 4 krak missiles have bounced off its 2+ save.

There are more unit types than just infantry & vehicles.

Yes, there are more threats than just vehicles and infantry, but in a tyranid army I doubt my razorbacks will have any tanks to harass so guess what big gribbly won't be laughing when his 2+ save is negated. Also, you may not have noticed that one of those examples I gave would work very well against MCs: Plasma+Combi-Plasma. At rapid fire range I'm looking at losing 2/9 of a marine, but I'm likely to cause 1 and 7/9 wounds to your flyrant. After the rapid fire more than likely you will nom my combat squad, but who cares? I lost 110 pts and I've taken half of your MC's wounds and hopefully put him in position for a concentrated salvo from most of my army more than likely outright killing your 130-170ish pt MC..

I'm also going to chime in here and agree with Deadshane on the inefficiency of equipping all your tactical squads with power fists. Leave the heavy hitting to your proper close combat units (terminators, assault marines, vanguard marines, dreadnoughts, etc) and let the tacticals do what they're best at. Shooting the junk out of things and holding objectives.

Green Blow Fly wrote:But apparently a lot of people here don't agree with you.
G

Starting to look a little more "vice-versa".

...all it takes is a mind open enough to see the points made here.

I wouldn't even go so far as to say they're good at shooting. They're just above mediocre at shooting and mediocre at close combat in my opinion. But they're scoring units with better resilience pt for pt than any other scoring unit. And trust me, it hurts me to say that because I used to love scouts in 4ed, in the new codex they're just a pile of suck.. same pt cost and lower stats for a unit that I think wasn't shown much love in 4ed to begin with.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:But apparently a lot of people here don't agree with you.
G

Starting to look a little more "vice-versa".

...all it takes is a mind open enough to see the points made here.

Are you contacting people offline to get them to side with you? Kind of funny seeing all these swing votes this late. Most of the arguments in favor of not taking a power fist are based on very hypothetical gaming situations and do not take the big picture into account. For instance why would anyone say SM are not good at shooting? They hit on 3+ with S4/AP5 and can double tap. They can take a heavy weapon and a special weapon.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:
Are you contacting people offline to get them to side with you? Kind of funny seeing all these swing votes this late. Most of the arguments in favor of not taking a power fist are based on very hypothetical gaming situations and do not take the big picture into account. For instance why would anyone say SM are not good at shooting? They hit on 3+ with S4/AP5 and can double tap. They can take a heavy weapon and a special weapon.
G

I never said space marines weren't good at shooting, I said tactical squads are above mediocre at shooting. When you compare them to other specialized shooting units, like devastators and sternguard, it's obvious no one goes "OMG!! I've got to find someway to eliminate that tactical squad before it's firepower ruins my army!" like I do when I see 1-2 thunderfire cannons on the other side of the table from my footslogging orks.. Nothing like 4 strength 5, ignores cover saves small blasts to put a 120 orks back into their carrying case... I've never looked at a tactical squad like that while playing my orks.
Rapid fire in my opinion is overrated as in most situations it's very much a gamble of "do I move close, rapid fire and risk taking the charge next turn or sit back and fire once and wait until next turn?" The majority of the time I use rapid fire is with plasmagun+combi-plasma firing, despite it's inherent dangers as plasma mainly because I want to get the most out of my combi-weapon. Sure against gaunts boltgun rapid fire is a great tactic, but there's lots of worse threats in CC that'll easily withstand the gentle pitter pat of a boltgun's rapid fire. Besides, if it's nasty enough to warrant the use of a powerfist, boltguns are just going to tickle it
As far as hypothetical gaming situations, what were you referring to?

themandudeperson wrote:I wouldn't even go so far as to say they're good at shooting.

G

Razerous wrote:A flyrant with warp field will laugh at you while it claws your face off after 4 krak missiles have bounced off its 2+ save.

And then that flyrant will continue laughing when it charges your 10 man tactical squad, taking a wound from your power fist and then dealing 4-5 back. It'll laugh even harder when it stops you from "combat tactics"ing away from combat until your own turn, when it finishes off your squad, then moves D6 + 12 + 6 inches into any unit it wants. Good thing you received that charge by the tac marines. Try hiding in a rhino next time. It's better than trading a scoring unit for one or two wounds on a flyrant.

That was not a good example to try and advocate power fists.

Green Blow Fly wrote:
Are you contacting people offline to get them to side with you? Kind of funny seeing all these swing votes this late.

It really disturbs me that you see this thread as some sort of 'cool' contest. If 500 people posted 'pfists rule' I still wouldn't take them, and i still would be a good 40k player. But we see now that you are counting votes.

Either to make sure that you are on the side with more votes... or to prepare to revise your opinion.

I find myself giving a whole lot more advice than getting here on dakka. Its still an awesome place to come, but i wouldn't put much faith in 'numbers of people who agree'. What really counts is your own experiences in game, with your own playstyle, with your own list design. And then your W/L record with that list design/strategy.


This thread, however, probably has a lot of data for a new space marine player. There is some great information in the back and forth to be disseminated.

My final verdict on pfists... Not in any of the space marine lists I've designed as of yet. I have had great success using space marines as an assault force, and adequate success using them as a drop pod force, using teleportation to leave a combat I don't want to be in rather than stick it out. I just don't need them, and I need those points. You might use tacticals differently, and might want a pfist... but I would say that you are not using them to their best potential if they are getting into combat with MCs or charging vehicles (especially walkers) regularly.

I never said I see this thread as a cool contest. Everyone here knows I am not by any means a cool person. I am 100% behind using power fists in tactical squads... not every squad for every army... but I will have my share spread out and usually a couple squads with more than one. I play a lot of games versus vanilla SM and when I see naked squads I already know I have won the game... I can reach them and run right through them.

G

Shep wrote:

Razerous wrote:A flyrant with warp field will laugh at you while it claws your face off after 4 krak missiles have bounced off its 2+ save.

And then that flyrant will continue laughing when it charges your 10 man tactical squad, taking a wound from your power fist and then dealing 4-5 back. It'll laugh even harder when it stops you from "combat tactics"ing away from combat until your own turn, when it finishes off your squad, then moves D6 + 12 + 6 inches into any unit it wants. Good thing you received that charge by the tac marines. Try hiding in a rhino next time. It's better than trading a scoring unit for one or two wounds on a flyrant.

That was not a good example to try and advocate power fists.

See, I do apologise for going off-topic.. but it kinda shows how much you decide to read a post before you quote it.

Obviously lots and lots.

Ive underlined what you may want to re-read.

I was replying to Lunahound and basically trying to put across the fact that there are more than just a few unit types. A wraithlord w/ two ranged weapons can charge into combat with a tactical squad and stay there, both sides continuing to slog it out (unles ofcourse its all vanillia'y and they have combat tactics and win @ a D6 I roll-off) 100-140ish pts of heavy support tieing up 170-220ish points of scoring troops. A pfist would prevent this/deter it.

Likewise AP2 is good against MC's which is why the missile launcher is a double egded sword.. as a flyrant would not fear krak missile.

Plamsa fire? Rapid fire. 12"

Flyrant 12"+d6"+6" (13 move to 24 charge) beats rapid fire lots and lots. That gaunt wall or ruin it will invariably be hiding in means hedging your bets on such short ranged AP2 firepower is just risky.

Razerous wrote:
Likewise AP2 is good against MC's which is why the missile launcher is a double egded sword.. as a flyrant would not fear krak missile.

Plamsa fire? Rapid fire. 12"

Flyrant 12"+d6"+6" (13 move to 24 charge) beats rapid fire lots and lots. That gaunt wall or ruin it will invariably be hiding in means hedging your bets on such short ranged AP2 firepower is just risky.

Firstly, let me start by apologizing, I thought your comment about krak missiles was directed at me as I said I like to take them due to being cheap and flexible (which they are).
The point I'm trying to make, is that for my play style, there are more effective means for me to use those 25 pts. For example, I love razorbacks, don't ask me why, but I do.. if I can scrounge another 10 pts I can plunk a TL lascannon on top of one of my vanilla ones. If I had 3 tactical squads with powerfists I could drop all the powerfists and have a razorback with a TL lascannon for the same price. And it's got a 48" range and an 8/9 chance of hitting and wounds almost ANYTHING on a 2+ in addition to being a threat to every vehicle up to AV 14. Quite handy if you ask me.. too bad they pop just as easy as a rhino, which is why I play aggressively with my Terminators in an effort to draw my opponent's fire.
Yeah, a flyrant is terrible, but they're also typically expensive and if you've got a mess of guants (which were previously unmentioned) wouldn't the combat squad from my second unmentioned tactical squad be able to clear away a massive group of them with a flamer and combi-flamer while being damned cheap on points? Also wouldn't the two missile launchers that would be wasting shots with krak missiles on your tyrant rack up some serious kills with frag missiles into your guants?
And wouldn't that open a hole in that unit for me to fire my AP2 shots through? And even so, a 4+ cover save is much easier to wound an MC with than a 2+ armor save or there's also the other side of the spectrum with me just pouring as many boltguns as I can into his hide as he approaches. And if he's hiding in a ruin, what's to stop my combat squad from shifting into position to force him out of cover if he desires to gobble them? My heavy weapons are parked way in the back and my sergeant's combat squad is running interference with all the move and shoot weapons. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I wasn't aware that flyrants could fleet, meaning you could only fly 12" and run d6 and have to wait until next turn to assault.. not that you'd need to if I were within rapid fire range, but at that point I'm throwing the combat squad away in an effort to tie the flyrant up until either my next shooting phase where I can hopefully concentrate my fire on it or get my terminators into combat with it.
Also, the point Shep made was also very valid. A flyrant should ALWAYS eat a tactical squad in close combat.. it's an expensive HQ with flying and it's a MC.. if it couldn't do that then it'd be the laughing stock of every gaming group. All that powerfist is doing is taking the fight from being a massacred tactical squad to a massacred tactical squad and potentially wounded flyrant.

Obviously you are going to shoot at the flyrant before it charges. If the 25 points for a power fist goes towards more guns to kill the flyrant and you can drop it before the charge then that was definitely 25 points well spent.

I used to love razorbacks back in 3rd edition and would typically run three to four six man tactical squads with las/plas and a power fist. That was the core of the army and they could shoot like crazy. In 4th edition I would sometimes run a shooty BA army with five 6 man las/plas squads (naked vets for the DC) all with heavy bolter razorbacks. I also had two Baal predators with heavy bolter sponsons. That was one sick army! People started asking me to play a BA drop pod army instead... hee.

I think the full tactical squad with a razorback is a great choice in 5th edition. I don't use razorbacks now but if you take enough of them and split your tactical squads into combat squads you are saturating the table with a lot of units. Personally I am a big fan of the rhino now with a meltagun inside... it's a great tank hunting unit and I prefer not to split my troops into combat squads. That's just me though and I can see why the razorback is a solid choice if you take enough of them.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Obviously you are going to shoot at the flyrant before it charges. If the 25 points for a power fist goes towards more guns to kill the flyrant and you can drop it before the charge then that was definitely 25 points well spent.

I used to love razorbacks back in 3rd edition and would typically run three to four six man tactical squads with las/plas and a power fist. That was the core of the army and they could shoot like crazy. In 4th edition I would sometimes run a shooty BA army with five 6 man las/plas squads (naked vets for the DC) all with heavy bolter razorbacks. I also had two Baal predators with heavy bolter sponsons. That was one sick army! People started asking me to play a BA drop pod army instead... hee.

I think the full tactical squad with a razorback is a great choice in 5th edition. I don't use razorbacks now but if you take enough of them and split your tactical squads into combat squads you are saturating the table with a lot of units. Personally I am a big fan of the rhino now with a meltagun inside... it's a great tank hunting unit and I prefer not to split my troops into combat squads. That's just me though and I can see why the razorback is a solid choice if you take enough of them.

G

Heh, I have 2 Baal Predators myself, I spent the extra points for the pintle mounted storm bolters though. Those things could devastate infantry. I do agree with you though that it's nice to effectively have 3 units come from 1 FOC slot, with each one still being a legitimate threat to the enemy. It really musses up people's target priority choices. I think that combat squads are an underused/underrated tactic as it allows you to still keep small units, each tailored for a specific job and each portion being cheap enough that you won't cry if/when they're eliminated. The downside though, is that each element is fairly frail so it takes some finesse to get the job done well.. And what this has to do with powerfists I don't know.. consider my line of thought derailed..

Razerous wrote:
Plamsa fire? Rapid fire. 12"

Flyrant 12"+d6"+6" (13 move to 24 charge) beats rapid fire lots and lots. That gaunt wall or ruin it will invariably be hiding in means hedging your bets on such short ranged AP2 firepower is just risky.

There is a lot of generalship you are either discounting or unaware of.

In my example, I suggested using a rhino. My rapid fire weapons would get to double tap your flyrant because you won't have access to my tacticals for your charge. Yes you will be close enough to them, but you see, they aren't on the table. It's the same function as the ork battlewagon. Battlewagons are vulnerable to assault, but then the assaulting unit has to face down a fresh unit that falls out of the beaten vehicle and is free to do whatever they will to your unit with no cover save.

If I deploy inside my rhino and fire heavy weapons and a plasma gun out of a firepoint, or deploy in a razorback and fire its heavy weapon, then your option is to charge and kill the vehicle. That leaves you stopped, right next to my army, well within special weapon range. you won't have cover or a screen, and I can maneuver the correct amount of firepower over to you (I saw you coming) and shoot you to death. I used a strategy to kill your MC that didn't require a power fist.

But in reality, I have even better tools at my disposal to remove MCs, I play with assault terminators, I REALLY don't need fists.

I'm a necron player and i regularily face space marines and i would say powerfists are my bane. wounding most things on a 2+ is well worth the points and initiative drop. unless faceing a hoard army (ig, tyranids, orks) they will always pay for their points back, and against necrons in peticular will devastate the oposition. It all depends on who you are facing.

What if instead of that powerfist your opponent took 2 plasma guns and a melta gun.

Which would you rather face.

Close combat is the best way to phase out Necrons.

G

Overgeneralized statements without support or reasoning are the best ones to make.

T

Green Blow Fly wrote:Close combat is the best way to phase out Necrons.

G

Agreed..I still wouldn't depend on tactical squad powerfist to do the work personally.. I haven't played too many skilled necron players in my area (they're not that popular around here), but the ones I have played used destroyers and heavy destroyers to provide long range firepower and additional anti-tank power. Against these opponents I've found I can easily score a win if I focus my firepower on these then, once they're eliminated I sit back and pound his warriors with heavy weapons to force them to A) move out of cover if they want to shoot back or B) move out of LOS to prevent casualties. At which point A) they lose their cover saves, making AP3 or better weaponry much more effective or B) I can more easily move my CC elements up as I have less worries of incoming fire.

"Ug, me use powerfist to SMASH puny army, HURRR!"

...there's your reasoning.

LOL

G

targetawg wrote:Overgeneralized statements without support or reasoning are the best ones to make.

T

When you shoot at Necrons they always get their WBB assuming an orb is in range. When you beat them in close combat you can destroy an entire unit via massacre. Good Necron players fear close combat a lot more than shooting.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:

targetawg wrote:Overgeneralized statements without support or reasoning are the best ones to make.

T

When you shoot at Necrons they always get their WBB assuming an orb is in range. When you beat them in close combat you can destroy an entire unit via massacre. Good Necron players fear close combat a lot more than shooting.

G

There we go, now that we have some reasoning, here's my only issue with the logic:

A powerfist on a tactical squad isn't the best means to take out that unit.

Say your 10 marines assault those Necron warriors, 18 attacks, 9 hit, 4.5 wound, 1.5 Dead Necrons
Fist hits, 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, 1.25 dead Necrons

You've now killed 2-3 Necron warriors. Attacks back from the 8.5 alive necrons before the best fist strikes, 4.25 hit, 2.25 wound, roughly 1 dead space marine

You've won combat by 2. And thats if he only has 10 warriors (pretty uncommon) and if you have a full 10 marines when it comes time to assault (also pretty uncommon).

He's testing on, at best for you, Ld 8. If he runs, you'll massacre him, but since he likely won't run, he'll then just portal out using his monolith or a veil, leaving you standing there to be rapid fired.

Now, that isn't to say I disagree with using combat versus necrons, it is a great tactic, but you need to ensure that whatever hits them, either wipes them, or kills enough that they're testing on a very low leadership (Winning combat b 5 ish ideally) so that them running is much more of a sure thing. A tactical squad just isn't the thing to do that with.

I'll also point out in the above example, a power sword would produce identical results to the fist, for 10 less points. (Power sword and power fist are identical versus t4, one has more attacks, one wounds easier).

The best way to assault Necrons is the multi-charge tying up as many units possible with as many of your units... otherwise Necrons veil out and teleport through the Monoliths. Most armies cannot outshoot Necrons, granted there are some and I have done it.

Now, that isn't to say I disagree with using combat versus necrons, it is a great tactic, but you need to ensure that whatever hits them, either wipes them, or kills enough that they're testing on a very low leadership (Winning combat b 5 ish ideally) so that them running is much more of a sure thing. A tactical squad just isn't the thing to do that with.

The power fist greatly increases the odds in your favor.

G

Deadshane1 wrote:

adielubbe wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:As far as vehicles, Krak grenades do just fine considering rear armour and 10 attacks (especially considering that they're free!). If armour 14 is your problem (land raiders) powerfists arent going to help you that much, but a melta bomb on the sergeant might. I keep hearing people say how good fists are in vehicular close combat. I think the better weapons/abilities are krak/melta and combat tactics against dreads....but thats just me.

Remember: All greandes usually hit on 6's, so 1 sarg with a melta is IMHO not worth it ae...

P-fists hit on 6's too against vehicles then...

What are you talking about? The absolute worst to hit roll with a PF against a walker will always be 5. PF's use the chart, Grenades and bombs require 6's to hit walkers, AND you only ever get one attack per model with a grenade vs. 2 or more with the PF.


EDIT: Just realised that you weren't talking about walkers

Green Blow Fly wrote:The best way to assault Necrons is the multi-charge tying up as many units possible with as many of your units... otherwise Necrons veil out and teleport through the Monoliths. Most armies cannot outshoot Necrons, granted there are some and I have done it.

Now, that isn't to say I disagree with using combat versus necrons, it is a great tactic, but you need to ensure that whatever hits them, either wipes them, or kills enough that they're testing on a very low leadership (Winning combat b 5 ish ideally) so that them running is much more of a sure thing. A tactical squad just isn't the thing to do that with.

The power fist greatly increases the odds in your favor.

G

If you read above, the power fist only increases the odds in your favor by 1 necron.

Thats not greatly.

And if you multi-assault with a tactical squad, you flat out won't win combat, You'll tie at best just due to weight of numbers.

if you want to talk about a win button against necrons.. what about vanguard? 1 relic blade, two power fists and jump packs. On the turn they deep strike in, they charge a unit of warriors with 3 strength 6 power weapon attacks and 8 normal attacks at I 4, then 6 strength 8 pf attacks.
Sergeant gets 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, no saves(I think), 1.25 wounds
2 normal guys get 4 hits, 2 wounds, 3+ armor followed by 4+ WBB, .66 wounds
18.0826 surviving warriors get 9.0413 hits, 4.52086 wounds, 3+ armor save, 1.506953 wounds
2 powerfists get 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, no saves, 2.5 wounds
marines: 4.083333 wounds
necrons: 1.506953 wounds
marines win by 2.57638

Not bad given the unit is almost guaranteed the charge free of casualties and only costs the same as a 10 man tactical squad with plasmagun and powerfist in a rhino. Or if you take the drop pod instead, the squad costs 5 pts less than a 10 man tactical squad with powerfist.

Edit: spotted screw up with combat resolution

Vanguard have a lot of issues:

You must buy jump backs in order to heroic intervention, it can't be done from a pod.

If you're going to go the heroic intervention route, you must have a locator beacon there, or also scatter is liable to either kill you, or move you out of your narrow 6 inch charge window.

That squad you just listed is 5 guys, just 5.

It costs 240 points.

You're paying almost 50 points per model for those guys when you average it out, thats the price of a land raider just for 5 guys with T4 and a 3+ save. It's pretty hard to justify that in a list, including that they don't score.

Add to that the fact that you barely won combat by more than the tactical squad we previously mentioned...and it gets even sadder.

targetawg wrote:Vanguard have a lot of issues:

You must buy jump backs in order to heroic intervention, it can't be done from a pod.
If you're going to go the heroic intervention route, you must have a locator beacon there, or also scatter is liable to either kill you, or move you out of your narrow 6 inch charge window.
That squad you just listed is 5 guys, just 5.
It costs 240 points.
You're paying almost 50 points per model for those guys when you average it out, thats the price of a land raider just for 5 guys with T4 and a 3+ save. It's pretty hard to justify that in a list, including that they don't score.
Add to that the fact that you barely won combat by more than the tactical squad we previously mentioned...and it gets even sadder.

Eh, didn't catch the part where they have to have jump packs to pull it off. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but can't they still move once they deep strike or am I remembering something else? If so, they'd have to deep strike within 18". If I'm wrong, then I'd definitely make it a point to include a teleporter homer in one of my tactical squads and use my combat squad with special weapon and sarge to get close and fire at the necrons, so I wouldn't have to worry about that as much. No bother, I wouldn't use vanguard in most cases anyway.
But the point I'm trying to make is that you can send a 10 man tactical squad in a rhino at a unit of necron warriors and face whatever casualties you'll take riding up there and then just barely beating them in combat if they're an understrength squad, for basically the same exact point costs as a kitted out vanguard unit that'll mutilate a 10 man unit of warriors (the numbers I ran were against a 20 man unit). 10 man tactical marine squads with a powerfist and a rhino cost 230 pts, if you find another 20 pts that's a land raider. The point is if you're going to hit Necrons in close combat you need a decisive victory against them to at least make your unit's cost back by running them down and a 10 man tactical squad isn't going to do that with or without a powerfist. Although, I will admit, having the vanguard unit deep strike into a tree and have to roll on the mishap chart and die would suck like a vacuum cleaner.
In targetawg's example you have a full tactical squad vs a half strength necron squad. In mine it's a minimum vanguard squad with some goodies vs a full warrior squad and you still come out about the same in combat resolution than you would if you managed to get a full 10 tactical marines in position.
Against 10 warriors, it would have been a steamroll win for the vanguard instead of the necrons holding roughly 2/3 of the time, then teleporting out of there and letting everyone rapid fire on you and more than likely eliminating that squad, like they would for a tactical squad

Here's what the vanguard unit from above would average against a 10 man squad of necron warriors
Sergeant gets 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, no saves(I think), 1.25 wounds
2 normal guys get 4 hits, 2 wounds, 3+ armor followed by 4+ WBB, .33 wounds
8.0826 surviving warriors get 4.0413 hits, 2.02086 wounds, 3+ armor save, 0.67362 wounds
2 powerfists get 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, no saves, 2.5 wounds
marines: 4.0833 wounds
necrons: .67362wounds
marines win by 3.7471
Necrons take break test at 6-7

Edit: spotted screw up with combat resolution

Vanguard can only deepstrike with jump packs.

Vanquard cannot move or run or fleet the turn they deepstrike if they plan to use their heroic intervention ability, the can only charge, if in range.

You're forgetting to mention that that vanguard squad, although better in this one situation has a few disadvantages to a tactical squad:

1) The tactical squad is 10 less points
2) The tactical squad comes with a transport (rhino) and 5 more guys. For the 10 less points
3) The tactical squad scores
4) They can move around and fire on enemy units all game, they aren't just present for that one combat against the necron warriors
5) The tacticals have 10 wounds and a vehicle, rather than 5 of the same stat line models with no vehicle

Your Vanguard squad beats them against a MEQ opponent by what, 1-2 wounds? In exchange for all of those huge drawbacks above?

And in my example, you have a full strength tactical squad versus a half strength warrior squad, yes.

But what you're forgetting to mention is the more important point, in my example, the 2 units are equal points. 10 Tacticals = 10 Necron warriors. In yours the necrons have double points on the tacticals. Not to mention that I've never once come across a necron player silly enough to use a 20 man squad.

Edit: And as an aside, do you understand necron rules? Part of your post above makes me wonder. WBB rolls don't occur until the following necron turn, its not FNP.

Not going to win a multi-assault against Necrons? I think there must be a communication gap. Anyways since you are an advocate of combat tactics why not fall then charge again to take advantage of the fist? You get multiple attacks with a power fist and always get double the phases to use it compared to shooting. Everyone knows close combat is the king in 5e.

G

targetawg wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:The best way to assault Necrons is the multi-charge tying up as many units possible with as many of your units... otherwise Necrons veil out and teleport through the Monoliths. Most armies cannot outshoot Necrons, granted there are some and I have done it.

Now, that isn't to say I disagree with using combat versus necrons, it is a great tactic, but you need to ensure that whatever hits them, either wipes them, or kills enough that they're testing on a very low leadership (Winning combat b 5 ish ideally) so that them running is much more of a sure thing. A tactical squad just isn't the thing to do that with.

The power fist greatly increases the odds in your favor.

G

If you read above, the power fist only increases the odds in your favor by 1 necron.

Thats not greatly.

And if you multi-assault with a tactical squad, you flat out won't win combat, You'll tie at best just due to weight of numbers.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Not going to win a multi-assault against Necrons? I think there must be a communication gap. Anyways since you are an advocate of combat tactics why not fall then charge again to take advantage of the fist? You get multiple attacks with a power fist and always get double the phases to use it compared to shooting. Everyone knows close combat is the king in 5e.

G

I'm not an advocate of combat tactics. Read the post, I've never even once written the words. Not in this post, not in this forum, not on this site.

Second, you won't win a multi-assault against necrons with a unit of tactical marines. You're BARELY winning a combat against a squad of 10 warriors with your 10 tacticals (winning by 2 currently). Add in another 10 necrons to the fight, and you're now taking another dead marine, leaving you winning combat against the 2 units by 1. And you won't have the option of falling back and recharging. If you remain in combat on his turn, he will leave combat, not you.

They'll be hard pressed to fail that check.

And once again, stop making general "Everyone knows xxxx" comments. They're not true. If anything combat got hurt in 5th with the advent of not being allowed to consolidate into other units, the loss of the powerfist attack, etc. All it gained was easier multi-assaults (which we could easily do in 4th if you positioned correctly), and the counter charge rule so there's no more close combat sniping.

It's almost like you keep saying random things in hopes that no one will correct you. That or to rack up your post count.

And the "G" thing at the end.

We know its your post. It has your name on it. You don't have to sign your name at the bottom.

Hey now, don't be bashing people who sign their name at the bottom of their posts!!

Otherwise, good points.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Okay I see where the communication breakdown has occurred. When I say mutiple assaults what is meant is I advocate charging as many units as you have possible into as many Necron squads as possible. I don't mean that you should charge one tactical squad into multiple Necron units. Necrons can use the veil of darkness and their monoliths to teleport out of drawn/locked combats. The same Necron units that teleported out of combat will then light you in their shooting phase. The best way I know of to prevent this is to multi charge as many Necron units as possible so that if combats are drawn the Necron player cannot remove all their units from close combat via teleportation. If they do teleport out then the Necron units left in close combat are more likely to break in the subsequent Necron turn.

I don't see why you would not advocate using combat tactics in general since you are a proponent of purely shooty tactical squads. You are using the points saved by not taking power fists to shoot more. Maybe I am missing something here and if you can enlighten me it is much appreciated.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Using combat tactics with a tactical squad equipped with a power fist means you are possibly able to get in another charge, double the attacks for the bolter Marines and add another attack for the power fist. There are twice as many assault phases as shooting phases. A sergeant with a power fist has three attacks on the charge and two in subsequent assaults leading from the initial charge. A combi weapon while cheaper than a power fist is a one shot deal and you can no longer master craft it so the odds are inherently in favor of the power fist to gain more attacks. If you could master craft the combi weapon then you are paying more points, which goes against said philosophy of eschewing the use of power fists in your tactical squads.

G

Also if you take a combi plasma in the tactical squad then if you rapid fire you cannot charge and there is the possiblility you will lose the sergeant to overheat.

G

It's becoming increasingly obvious, Green, that you are of the opinion that a tactical squad is simply a 10 wound powerfist with 2 attacks (3 when you're able to MANAGE a charge with troopers with no movement bonuses). Everytime I read one of your posts this is what I get out of it.

That is not an efficient way to deploy 200 pts worth of troops. It doesnt matter how you justify it. Shooting is a more efficient way to deploy tacticals. If you get outmaneuvered and NEED the fist for some reason (and those reasons are RARE as Targetawg has illustrated), well, thats just what happens in battle. It doenst mean your inefficient way of running tacticals is correct, it means you've covered an error in maneuvering with an overpriced and underuseful peice of wargear.

I'm confident that whatever you can do with a powerfist squad, at less points I can have a squad loaded out in melta with combat tactics that does it better and for less points. Short of insta-killing characters, and since Eternal warrior is so rampant nowadays...even that ability is nerfed in the extreme, not that you should be attempting to kill characters in CC with Tactical Squads in the first place.

on the note of PF's;
i would take them, but only on 1/2 my units max.
starts to become a huge point sink after that.


as for vanguard;
same as flash gitz, look good on paper, but will rarely earn thier points, and more likely they will be shot to death or beaten by dedicated CC units.
with those points grab a land raider, or if you dead set on killing necron warriors, invest in 2 vindi's.

targetawg wrote:Vanguard can only deepstrike with jump packs.

Vanquard cannot move or run or fleet the turn they deepstrike if they plan to use their heroic intervention ability, the can only charge, if in range.

You're forgetting to mention that that vanguard squad, although better in this one situation has a few disadvantages to a tactical squad:

1) The tactical squad is 10 less points
2) The tactical squad comes with a transport (rhino) and 5 more guys. For the 10 less points
3) The tactical squad scores
4) They can move around and fire on enemy units all game, they aren't just present for that one combat against the necron warriors
5) The tacticals have 10 wounds and a vehicle, rather than 5 of the same stat line models with no vehicle

Your Vanguard squad beats them against a MEQ opponent by what, 1-2 wounds? In exchange for all of those huge drawbacks above?

And in my example, you have a full strength tactical squad versus a half strength warrior squad, yes.

But what you're forgetting to mention is the more important point, in my example, the 2 units are equal points. 10 Tacticals = 10 Necron warriors. In yours the necrons have double points on the tacticals. Not to mention that I've never once come across a necron player silly enough to use a 20 man squad.

Edit: And as an aside, do you understand necron rules? Part of your post above makes me wonder. WBB rolls don't occur until the following necron turn, its not FNP.

Firstly, let me preface this by saying that I really wasn't saying load up all three of your fast attacks with vanguard, because they own. They don't.. they're overcosted for what you get and 9 times out of 10, if they pull of heroic intervention correctly, they slaughter the unit, then get shot to hell. The problem I've seen with people using them is they want to load them out with horrendous amounts of gear, keep it cheap if you can. I think two powerfist and a relic blade are the maximum you'd want to give them.
1) 10 pts does make a difference, but if it's that drastic of an issue, drop the relic blade and suddenly you're 5 pts under.
2) The point total I came up with for a vanguard unit was close to what a tactical squad with powerfist and rhino had, which if I had to try and engage a necron warrior squad in close combat with a tactical squad, would be my approach. In fact, as mentioned above, you can drop the relic blade to save 15 pts and come in 5 pts cheaper. Actually, now that I think about it, the sergeant would have 4 attacks on the charge, 2 hits 1 wound, you're basically paying 15 pts for .25 wounds against MEQ's. That's not really that great of a point investment.
3) That's only important if you're using the tactical squads in a capacity that involves them surviving. As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, the necrons will most likely disengage close combat and light you up next turn with multiple units rapid firing. Even if they do survive, all they will do is contest the objective, which any unit can do.
4) So can jump infantry, the only problem is after soaking up all the fire that's going to be dumped on them, they're not likely to be a contributing factor offensively and neither will the tactical squad. The rhino is front armor 11 and side armor 10, any destroyers in the area are going to pop it like a grape. Hell.. you'll be lucky to get the tactical squad to the necrons with the rhino intact, much less have it around to use after your charge.
5) This is definitely one of the vanguard's glaring weaknesses. I'm not going to deny it, but potentially if you don't screw yourself on the deep strike, you'll maim a unit of necron warriors badly with these guys. Yeah, they'll spend the next turn with their asses hung out to dry, but so will the tactical squad, if enough models survive to get there to win combat to begin with.

If you want me to redo those numbers again with 12 warriors I can.. but it won't make much difference in the number

Also, I am rusty on the WBB rules. It's been a while since I've faced necrons and I didn't catch myself until you mentioned it, I did figure in the WBB rolls like FNP. My bad.. Also, I'm no longer 100% on what negates WBB rolls. I believe it's power weapon attacks in CC and ID weapons when there isn't a res orb nearby.. right?

I used tactical squads in rhinos with optimally kitted as follows:

Meltagun, lascannon, power fist

First turn I move the rhino onto an objective if possible and blow smoke. Mind you I have at least four rhinos in my army. Mid game I will fire the lascannon from inside the rhino at light to medium enemy armor. If the enemy advances and is mechanized I will then fire the meltas at enemy armor that poses the most threat. Late game I will charge if necessary or rapid fire depending on which yields the highest rate of success. If I don't have to use the power fists I won't purposedly put my squads into position to use them.

My tactical squads are multi purpose and I use them however I best see fit. It's best when they can sit on an objective and play a defensive roll. Typically I wi assault with them to throw more weight into an already ensuing coMbat if I do use them in assault. The three power fist attacks can easily swing the advantage to my favor.

Your use of tactical squads is more limited since you brace for assaults with one attack per bolter Marine then break so you can shoot again. Since I do charge I get three attacks per bolted Marine.. one shot with the bolt pistol us two attacks on the charge into the assault. That is 9*2 close combat attacks plus 9 bolt pistol shots plus one shot from the meltagun...

18 close combat hits that land on 4+ versus WS4+
3 power fist attacks that hit on 4+ versus WS4+
9 bolt pistol shots that hit on 3+
1 meltagun shot that hits on 2+

31 attacks in total

Against another 10 man tactical squad:

9 close combat attacks hit and 4-5 wound/ 1-2 enemy Marines fail their save
1-2 power fist hit for same number of unsaved wounds
Meltagun hits for one more unsaved wound

So 3-5 unsaved wounds not including shots fired from
the bolt pistols for six more wounds and two more failed saves. This brings the kill count up to 5-7.

The enemy unit equipped without a power fist can land 10 hits, five of which hit and 1-2 failed saves. I win the combat by 3-6 wounds. There is a good chance the enemy will break and if they don't fall back far enough they remain a broken unit and can be herded off the table. They may also have to take additional armor saves which brings them even lower and there is solid possibility they lose both/either their special weapon and/or heavy weapon as well due to the wound allocations.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I used tactical squads in rhinos with optimally kitted as follows:

Meltagun, lascannon, power fist

245 pts vs the 210 pts I spend for same squad

First turn I move the rhino onto an objective if possible and blow smoke. Mind you I have at least four rhinos in my army. Mid game I will fire the lascannon from inside the rhino at light to medium enemy armor.

so basically, you waste the points on the lascannon for a mobile squad to occasionally use a lascannon midfield where a melta can do the same job better.

If the enemy advances and is mechanized I will then fire the meltas at enemy armor that poses the most threat.

again, since you advanced within Rhino's first, a MM would serve you better here, but whatever.

Late game I will charge if necessary

which it shouldnt be with tacticals, but go on...

or rapid fire depending on which yields the highest rate of success.

basically what you should be planning to do in the first place as this is where the squads true offensive abilities lie.

If I don't have to use the power fists I won't purposedly put my squads into position to use them.

wasting 25 pts that you've spent...wait, make that 100 pts since you mention having 4 rhino's I guess this means four tac squads.

My tactical squads are multi purpose and I use them however I best see fit. It's best when they can sit on an objective and play a defensive roll.

again, wasting BIG points on powerfists that they dont need for this mission.

Typically I wi assault with them to throw more weight into an already ensuing coMbat if I do use them in assault.

wasting 40 pts on weapons that are outclassed by combat tactics and MM's...especially since you mentioned that you're mid-feild with these guys.

The three power fist attacks can easily swing the advantage to my favor.

The thing you fail to see despite people hammering you with the facts is that 1.5 (assuming a lucky charge) or 1 hit in close combat with a fist doesnt easily swing anything! 1 (or even two if luck is on your side) extra casualty ISNT slaughtering your enemy in close combat. Its not winning you that much.

Your use of tactical squads is more limited since you brace for assaults with one attack per bolter Marine then break so you can shoot again.

actually its more dynamic since its utilising the entire squad in the shooting phase and using combat tactics...but go on...

Since I do charge I get three attacks per bolted Marine.. one shot with the bolt pistol us two attacks on the charge into the assault.

...wasting the rapid fire bolter shots and potential combi-weapon shots that the squad is actually BUILT and EQUIPPED to do...

That is 9*2 close combat attacks plus 9 bolt pistol shots plus one shot from the meltagun...

as apposed to 14 bolter shots, two melta, and a possible MM shot for standing still? All hitting on 3's instead of half on 4+ and with no threat to the unit itself. Your "advantage" is no advantage at all.

18 close combat hits that land on 4+ versus WS4+
3 power fist attacks that hit on 4+ versus WS4+
9 bolt pistol shots that hit on 3+
1 meltagun shot that hits on 2+

31 attacks in total

Ok, so lets play your game, tac squad vs tac squad, we already know that my unit shoots better (due to the added combi-weapon) so we'll ignore the shooting for sake of simplicity, but assuming I charge (god knows why, but I'll do it for sake of arguement) with NO powerfist lets see how much better your results are against a fresh tac squad than mine....

You

9xmarines attack marines, 9 hit, 4.5 wound, 1.5 dead marines
Sgt attacks with fist 1.5 hit, Less than 1.5 dead

-kills: almost 3

Me

9xmarines attack marines, 9 hit, 4.5 wound, 1.5 dead marines.
Sgt attacks 1.5 hit, .75 wound, less than 1 dead

-kills: almost 2

So basically, Your fist doesnt make you THAT much better in CC. Not 25pts better anyway. My squad, designed for shooting, shoots MUCH better than your's however since I'm not afraid of using my rapid fire ability, standing still and shooting a heavy weapon and probably have a combi-weapon.

...basically, my tactical squad does things it's actually suited to do....and it does them all well, not great, well. Your tactical squad tries to do things it isnt designed to do (hth) and therefore does it BARELY better than my squad who also isnt designed to do hth.

Shane I rarely lose with my Space Marines and not once against another Space Marine army. You have made a lot of assumptions that are wrong. If you really believe a one shot combi is better than a power fist and makes you a lot better at shooting then good for you. You are definitely wrong about a multi-melta being better than a lascannon. There are plenty of situations where objectives are not placed in the middle of the table. Is that where you always place them?

G

Your record with your armies doesnt matter. Its not any sort of argument to enforce your point here. I can sit here and say that I rarely lose with my firewarrior hand to hand army...it doesnt mean a thing.

I havent made any assumptions, math PROVES that p-fists arent more effective against tactical marines, you just refuse to accept it.

A one shot combi DOES make the unit a BIT better at what it already does fairly well. A powerfist makes tacticals do a 'little' better at something they suck at. Furthermore, its at the expense of the other nine members talents of what THEY do well.

I'm definatly wrong about MM's being better than Lascannons...tell me how? MM's bust tanks better/easier, and kill hard armoured troopers JUST as easy....the only thing that lascannons have is 2' range....which you pay 10 more points for while giving up AP1 and 2d6 pen at short ranges.

Its a preferance, I prefer MM's. I'm not saying they're THAT much better than Lascannons, I just prefer them. I can tell you that YOUR tactics that you pointed out above arent so fabulous for them though. You use them as an afterthought if your post above is any indication....something that a FREE missle launcher would serve you better for.

I care about efficient point spending in army lists to allow for MORE units to do damage/accomplish missions. You obviously care about bringing the most powerful thing availiable and damn the point expenditure. If that approach serves you then fine, but it doesnt make your choices the most efficient ones, and DEFINATLY not the best ones for EVERYONE.

You're sitting there telling us that we're wrong (those of us who DONT use multiple PF's in Tac squads), that your choices are better than ours, and that marines are great in HtH with powerfists.....and you do so without backing up any of your claims with logic, facts OR math.

We're telling you that you're wrong, showing you math, showing you point costs, stating facts and promoting better generalship. OVER AND OVER again. However, you glaze over what we tell you and state that..."I rarely lose and have never lost against another marine". Good debate technique.

Aren't you doing the same thing? Get over it already.

G

No, I'm not doing the same thing. At the risk of repeating myself....

I'm stating facts.

You're telling us your win record.


One of us is contributing to this thread.

Shane I have supported my claims with tactics and strategic discussions. There has been lots of positive response to what I have said from others here following this post. Why are you trying to spin what I have said?

G

how about you both just leave the argument?
lets face it, neither of you are getting anywhere, and neither of you will change your mind about your decision, its just going to be page after page of pointless arguments.

when really, its all down to personal preference of the general.

Well said JD.

G

NO! Continue arguing, I'm at work for another 7 hours and I need, nay demand, entertainment!!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Okay just imagine what I would like to really say.

G

lol, its simply a deadlock
and at the end of the day, everyone has thier own view.

ozzy, youtube is your friend when your bored

Polonius wrote:
although the enemy still needs to botch it's sweeping advance)

Just so you know you can NOT sweeping advance space marines. They take a number of wound equal to how many points they lost the combat by (normal saving thows allowed)

This has been a very eye-opening thread.

I've still got Powerfists on most of my dudes becuase well.. that's what the models have. Indeed I have been finding them less useful this edition.

In fact only last game I played a squad with no powerfist because I was playing against a new player and wanted to make my army "softer". He got a Dread within 6", but I lost 3 guys to shooting and voluntary fall back'd to stop the charge, then killed it with Sternguard melta. Then the Sternguard got charged by the second dread. As it happend I lost the initiative roll-off to run away and the sternguard died (Yes, to failed saves. Yes, I know rules), oh well.

If I'd had a Powerfist I probably would have taken the first charge with bravado and got owned (1/9 chance of killing the dread). Sometimes having contingencies makes you play worse. (Like, I play Daemons better when I have no Icons, because otherwise I end up deep striking my Horrors too close to the enemy "to be safe").

I can see how if you allready have Pedro for some bad reason, you'd be better off taking Fists, becuase your boys become Stubborn and like to stick around in lost cause combats, may as well to some wounds whilst there.

It is hard to let go.. last edition powerfists really were that good, after all. But then, it's not like I kept Starcannons in my Eldar army..

Now I need to aquire some Combiweapons..

Neil wrote:

In fact only last game I played a squad with no powerfist because I was playing against a new player and wanted to make my army "softer". He got a Dread within 6", but I lost 3 guys to shooting and voluntary fall back'd to stop the charge, then killed it with Sternguard melta. Then the Sternguard got charged by the second dread. As it happend I lost the initiative roll-off to run away and the sternguard died (Yes, to failed saves. Yes, I know rules), oh well.

If I'd had a Powerfist I probably would have taken the first charge with bravado and got owned (1/9 chance of killing the dread). Sometimes having contingencies makes you play worse. (Like, I play Daemons better when I have no Icons, because otherwise I end up deep striking my Horrors too close to the enemy "to be safe").

I can see how if you allready have Pedro for some bad reason, you'd be better off taking Fists, becuase your boys become Stubborn and like to stick around in lost cause combats, may as well to some wounds whilst there.

Thats a very interesting point as well.

There's totally a reason to take a lascannon over a multimelta in a rhino squad...It's totally why you would pay 15 points for a chaos plasma pistol instead of the 10 point meltagun.

You can hurt the avatar! I got ya there..It's totally super effective.

Hey! Why are people throwing things at me?

scuddman wrote:There's totally a reason to take a lascannon over a multimelta in a rhino squad...It's totally why you would pay 15 points for a chaos plasma pistol instead of the 10 point meltagun.

You can hurt the avatar! I got ya there..It's totally super effective.

Hey! Why are people throwing things at me?

*throws his 4th ed. powerfist equipped tactical sergeants at you*

Personally, I think the main source of the argument is GW realized in 4ed how effective powerfists were and decided to up their costs to make up for it in the DA/BA codexes and to keep those already shat upon players from crying foul, they kept the price the same in the new Space Marine codex. Then for some reason, when 5ed came out they decided to take away the +1 attack it gained if the bearer had a pistol as well to balance as well. The only problem is they threw the power/cost balance from overpowered to overcosted.

On a side note, if GW had allowed tacticals to trade their boltguns for chainswords for free, would people out there think a powerfist would be a worthwhile addition to a 10 man scoring unit with BPs and CCWs?

themandudeperson wrote:

scuddman wrote:There's totally a reason to take a lascannon over a multimelta in a rhino squad...It's totally why you would pay 15 points for a chaos plasma pistol instead of the 10 point meltagun.

You can hurt the avatar! I got ya there..It's totally super effective.

Hey! Why are people throwing things at me?

*throws his 4th ed. powerfist equipped tactical sergeants at you*

Personally, I think the main source of the argument is GW realized in 4ed how effective powerfists were and decided to up their costs to make up for it in the DA/BA codexes and to keep those already shat upon players from crying foul, they kept the price the same in the new Space Marine codex. Then for some reason, when 5ed came out they decided to take away the +1 attack it gained if the bearer had a pistol as well to balance as well. The only problem is they threw the power/cost balance from overpowered to overcosted.

On a side note, if GW had allowed tacticals to trade their boltguns for chainswords for free, would people out there think a powerfist would be a worthwhile addition to a 10 man scoring unit with BPs and CCWs?

I can see a powerfist in THAT unit. Kind of like I can see PF's in Assault Squads. Not that they're AWESOME CC troops, but they're competant unlike tacticals.

themandudeperson wrote:Personally, I think the main source of the argument is GW realized in 4ed how effective powerfists were and decided to up their costs to make up for it in the DA/BA codexes and to keep those already shat upon players from crying foul, they kept the price the same in the new Space Marine codex. Then for some reason, when 5ed came out they decided to take away the +1 attack it gained if the bearer had a pistol as well to balance as well. The only problem is they threw the power/cost balance from overpowered to overcosted.

Yep, they changed the point cost to match last edition's effectiveness and the effectiveness to match last edition's point cost.

See Also:

Starcannons
Rhinos
Ork Boys
Assault Cannons
Plasma Guns
(many others)

Look at Chaos Marine units such as Nurgle Marines and Khorne Berzerkers. They commonly feature a power fist and no one makes any bones about it. Look at Space Wolf Blood Claws with three power fist (up to four if you take a WGL) and counter charge. No one makes any bones about that. These units are troop choices but differ from a tactical squad since they have multiple attacks per model and cannot field heavy weapons. Are these units not good as a troop choice for power armored armies because they can't take heavy weapons? I think people will say they are still good, in fact most people think that Nurgle amarines are one of the best troop choices available... you have to field your heavy weapons for these armies using other units such as obliterators and predators. Obviously we aren't comparing apples to apples if we try to draw similar conclusions about these assault oriented troops versus tactical squads. However there are other Space Marine armies that have access to special abilities that will enhance their tactical squads for the assault role. One example is Pedro Kantor with his +1A bubble. Another one is Blood Angels fielding Dante and Corbulo - furious charge, preferred enemy and -1 WS to enemy units (all only apply if within said areas of effect). Even a case could be made for Shrike and the Khan. Fleet and outflanking enhance close combat, not shooting. So it's not possible to pigeonhole all tactical squads into one common class. There are just too many variations available to the Space Marine player when designing an army. i should also mention at this point that Blood Angele can take assault squads that count as a troop choice. For those that play armies that strictly want to design a shooty army and use combat tactics to make up for lack of close combat prowess with a dedicated assault unit then yes these particular style is better off without the power fist and that makes their generals happy.

Is the power fist actually worse in 5th as compared to 4th? In 4th you had one extra attack. In 5th power fists sutomatically hit rear armor. In 5th a fearless unit has to take a number of armor saves equal to the wounds they lost by in close combat... Even 1-2 extra wounds due to the power fist can make a big difference here. To me it all balances out in the end.

G

Actually, the hitting vehicles in rear armor makes power fists slightly less worthwhile against non-walkers, because marines are equipped with krak grenades that do wonders to AV 10.

I think I just heard a toilet flush.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Is the power fist actually worse in 5th as compared to 4th?

Yes.

In 5th power fists sutomatically hit rear armor.

So do krak grenades. So Power Fists beame less useful in this case.

In 5th a fearless unit has to take a number of armor saves equal to the wounds they lost by in close combat... Even 1-2 extra wounds due to the power fist can make a big difference here.

If you assume charging (3 attacks), and you assume that you win the combat (a big assumption), then it works out the same if the opponent has 3+ armour save, and better only if they have a worse save than that. If not charging, the powerfist is worse in 5th ed rules for a 3+ or better save, the same for 4+, and better only for 5+.

(Mathhammer: Each powerfist attack yeilds y wounds, therefore x attacks yeild xy wounds, therefore the chance of an armour save being failed is xy*z, where z is the chance of an armor save being failed. The chance of a single extra powerfist attack killing a model is also y, so for equivalency of xy*z=y, z=1/x)

To me it all balances out in the end.

I'm starting to doubt your analytical skills.

.....twice.

I think it's really a context thing. If everything else in your army has a powerfist, why do you need to give tactical squads one? They're not going to use it. You have something else to do that job.

It's the old argument of specializing vs. generalizing. If you generalize your army, then you'll need the fists more. If you specialize, then tacticals shouldn't ever be in hand to hand unless it's Tau or guardsman.

You can think of it like this...would you give storm troopers a power fist? How about guardsman? Probably not...why not? Same reason why deadshane says so.

But what if you did the power armor tactical squad horde? Everything is scoring and on foot. Yeah, you'd probably take some power fists somewhere, though probably not on every squad.

I think it comes down to playstyle...for once I think GW got it right. If two good players can't agree on whether a choice should be taken..maybe it's pretty balanced?

Okay, deadshane needs to make a list with lots of powerfists, then GBF should make a list with no power fists. They should swap lists, play each other, and try to prove their points right.

Then deadshane can make a list and not swap, GBF can make a list and not swap, and they can try to prove to each other again.

Grudge match: To fist or not to fist? That is the big question!

Then I will prove them both wrong by taking assault squad sergeants with dual power weapons! Yeah! That's the ticket! Taking a setup more expensive than a powerfist and less effective, only a true man amongst men would try such a feat.

Edit: On a more serious note, I think that's actually a good idea for you guys to support your context by showing what space marine army list you're talking about.

Powerfists on Berserkers make sense, as they're designed to assault, thus the power fist makes them better at assaulting. Actually, that goes in general for most of the units in the Chaos codex, as they come base with 2 attacks, lending themselves to a more assault-oriented army. The loss of ATSKNF (even with rerollable Ld10) and no combat tactics means that their basic CSM (which are the direct comparison here, not the cult squads) can't always sit back and watch while a dreadnought lumbers their way. Especially given the supporting units (and the few numbers of multimeltas/heavy weapons in general), the CSM have to be jack of all trades, and slightly better in combat than shooting, really the reverse of codex SM.

And I think I mentioned earlier, if you're playing an army that doesn't have Combat Tactics, then you have to start considering such back-ups as power fists. You can't simply run away. That doesn't mean that it's necessarily a good thing, but more of a necessary evil. And yes, if you have nothing else in your army that has powerfists/other ways of smacking people around, then a powerfist here and there is probably good. But neither of these mean that everyone should automatically go for the powerfist on their Tac squad sergeants. Powerfists are a luxury that most armies can do without if they are built and played well.

Here is my typical BA list:

Dante
2x 5x VAS/3x power fist & meltagun

Corbulo
5x DC - rhino

2x 10x tactical Marine/power fist & meltagun - rhino
10x assault Marine/power fist & plasma pistol - rhino

2x Baal/HB sponsons

So 9 power fists, 3 meltaguns and the two Baals for most of the shooting. I would rather have a meltagun in a rhino or in jump infantry since I can move, shoot and assault. I can't use combat tactics but I don't need them.

Back to the subject of power fists being nerfed in 5th. The krak grenade is good I admit, but the power fist is easier to get the penetration. I have a better chance at catching tanks since my army is mobile. I believe some of the posters here also advocate against the use of transports for their tactical squads... That is another subject in itself really.

I have provided the numbers to show why a squad of ten Marines with a meltagun and power fist is likely to win when charging another tactical squad without a power fist. Let's run through the numbers again:

9 bolt pistol shots, 6 hit, three wound, 1 failed save
1 meltagun shot, 1 hit, 1 unsaved wound
18 close combat attacks, 9 hit, 4 wound, 1 failed save
3 power fist attacks, 1 hits, 1 unsaved wound

So four wounds total (conservative) with two wounds lost in close combat. The enemy squad has six Marines left for seven attacks. Three hit, one wounds and the armor save is passed. Again I was conservative. So the enemy unit loses by two wounds and tests on Ld7. Suppose the choose to fall back using combat tactics. Having lost four models there is a good chance they will lose/both their sergeant and the special weapon or heavy weapon. If they cannot regroup then they cannot fire the heavy weapon. Let's suppose they lost the special weapon but the sergeant survived and can fire his combi melta. 10 rapid fire shots, six hit and three wound with one kill. The sergeant fires his combi and kills another bringing the original unit down to eight Marines. The original unit then fires six bolt pistol shots for four hits, two wounds and we'll assume both saves are made. The meltagun kills another bringing the squad down to five. Now the second charge... 14 close combat attacks for seven hits and three wounds with one failed save. The power fist gets another kill bringing the unit down to three Marines. Their attacks back are six attacks, three hit and one wounds which is saved. As you can see the original squad is superior attriting the other unit over the course of two rounds of close combat. In fact using combat tactics allows the original unit to shoot their pistols again and net the charge bonus.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:
Dante
2x 5x VAS/3x power fist & meltagun

Corbulo
5x DC - rhino

2x 10x tactical Marine/power fist & meltagun - rhino
10x assault Marine/power fist & plasma pistol - rhino

2x Baal/HB sponsons

...and I'm REALLY not trying to start another arguement, but which army looks more rounded and able to take on "all comers"?

That or the army I'm currently building....

HQ
Chapter Master-Jump Pack, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon, Digital Lasers, Artificer Armour
Chaplain-Jump Pack, Plasma Pistol, Digital Weapons
ELITE
Techmarine-Servo Harness, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon
TROOPS
(10)Tacticals-Melta, Missle Launcher, Sergeant with Power Weapon
(10)Tacticals-Melta, Multi-Melta, Sergeant with Combi-Melta, Rhino
(10)Tacticals-Flamer, Multi-Melta, Sergeant with Combi-Flamer, Rhino
FAST ATTACK
(10)Assault Marines-2xFlamer, Sergeant with Twin Lightning Claws
(3)Attack Bikes-3xHeavy Bolter
HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator-Twin Linked Lascannon, Lascannon Sponsons, Dozer Blade
Predator-Twin Linked Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Dozer Blade
Vindicator-Seige Blade
=1850 even

I out-vehicle you
I out shoot you
You out assault me, but my list is WAY more flexible while not being a 'slouch' as far as CC goes.

What bought that flexibility? Not spending 225 pts on powerfists is a start. I'm not trying to say "my list beats your list" what I'm illustrating is that your list is EXTREMELY 1-dimensional while the list I have here is able to respond to more battlefield situations.

I mean...what happens when you cannot out assault your opponent? Your shooting is dismal because you've spent so many points on power fists. Say you go up against a Tyranid Horde designed for CC with tons of hormagaunts/genestealers and a couple of big bugs that are able to keep your TWO B'aal's from firing using venom? Your list is DEAD....its got nothing for that.

My list is primarily shooting, but against an opponent that out-shoots me (like guard or Tau) I have a respectable HtH game availiable with the assault troops, two characters, a tactical squad with a power weapon, and even a techmarine that can be scary in CC. All that while retaining a powerful shooting game to shut key units down.

THAT's well rounded.

If you want to go with nine powerfists in an army you lock yourself into one way to do battle. Your blood angels may win you games, but in a tournement situation there are SO many armies that can handle a list like yours and laugh. People enjoy building to stop MEQ, and people are generally not that scared of Marine Hand to Hand armies, because they cannot dominate REAL hand to hand armies. Mechanised horde, Tactical horde, and just well built/run marine lists, those are the Marines that demand/earn respect. Spamming powerfists doesnt make marine armies good...marines arent FAST enough int-wise to be good enough in combat, and they arent resiliant enough to outlast opponents in order to use powerfists in the game long-term.

Now, I do understand that this is a Blood Angels list however, and you're pretty much locked in on the mentality that your marines are going to charge because they're bloodthirsty maniacs. Thats the army you chose and that's fine. All I'm really saying here is that spamming powerfists doesnt necessarily make the best armylists out there...and thats the full point of this thread.

As a note, GBF, we are not discussing powerfists in codex:BA. This is only powerfists on tac squads chosen from codex:SM. There is a significant difference between the two armies - tac squads in BA are slightly better at assault than those in codex:SM, hence the powerfist makes more sense. Could you get more/different things for the fist in BA? Probably, but as a special sub-codex it plays by different rules.

BA are all about the assaulting, so no complaints from me about the army being one-dimensional/less tactical than (for instance) Deadshane's. The powerfists are probably better in yours. They're not needed in his.

tzeentchling wrote:As a note, GBF, we are not discussing powerfists in codex:BA. This is only powerfists on tac squads chosen from codex:SM. There is a significant difference between the two armies - tac squads in BA are slightly better at assault than those in codex:SM, hence the powerfist makes more sense. Could you get more/different things for the fist in BA? Probably, but as a special sub-codex it plays by different rules.

BA are all about the assaulting, so no complaints from me about the army being one-dimensional/less tactical than (for instance) Deadshane's. The powerfists are probably better in yours. They're not needed in his.

Absolutly GBF, I had glossed over that point because I was more concerned at the time with spending 225pts on fists.

You DO only have two units in your army that are concerned with this discussion, so in fact the whole point of many powerfists in an army doesnt apply in this case.

I will point out however that the list is still not optimised because I think you're really overlooking the goodness that are Powerweapons charged with Furious Charge....Your vets still have that dont they? Exclusively equipping your powerfists in those vet squads is negating bonuses that you pay points for. Another example of a powerfist possibly not being the best choice. Saving some points, a good idea might be two PW's and a single PF in each squad. That's what I think.

I don't know about that, furious charge or not. One of the problems with being a fast, get in your face army is you run into monstrous creatures alot quickly and only have a turn or two to shoot them. Once injured, the fist dispatches them quickly. A power weapon is nigh worthless. But my point was it plays different, and the context matters.

scuddman wrote:I don't know about that, furious charge or not. One of the problems with being a fast, get in your face army is you run into monstrous creatures alot quickly and only have a turn or two to shoot them. Once injured, the fist dispatches them quickly. A power weapon is nigh worthless. But my point was it plays different, and the context matters.

Against many armies that have troopers however that ARENT MC's, marines, chaos marines, even eldar, a str5 power weapon (that actually gets another attack from a bolt pistol) can be TOTALLY preferable to a powerfist going last with one less attack.

....but Blood Angels arent my cup of tea anyway, so play them how you will.

Seeing his list however makes me understand a bit more why GBF is plugging tons of fists in Vanilla armies....he's in a bloodangel mentality. Tons of fists in a Vanilla marine list might be fine if you going to stick completely to close combat. I however dont see a CC armylist in the marine codex. I see a more toolboxy armylist with shooting as more of a speciality....thats just what I see.

He's all about throwing powerarmour with fists into close combat...if he can win games that way fine, I just dont see it as a good battleplan in this game with scads of genestealers, harlequins, berserkers, daemons, Tyranid warriors, and orks. So many things that are so much better than marines in CC....its no way to get massacres.

Another poster asked if I would post my list. I don't agree with what you have said about BA being a purely assault army. They can be played very similar to codex SM style.

G

tzeentchling wrote:As a note, GBF, we are not discussing powerfists in codex:BA. This is only powerfists on tac squads chosen from codex:SM. There is a significant difference between the two armies - tac squads in BA are slightly better at assault than those in codex:SM, hence the powerfist makes more sense. Could you get more/different things for the fist in BA? Probably, but as a special sub-codex it plays by different rules.

BA are all about the assaulting, so no complaints from me about the army being one-dimensional/less tactical than (for instance) Deadshane's. The powerfists are probably better in yours. They're not needed in his.

I have beaten nob bikers with this list which wouldn't be possible with power weapons.

G

Deadshane1 wrote:

tzeentchling wrote:As a note, GBF, we are not discussing powerfists in codex:BA. This is only powerfists on tac squads chosen from codex:SM. There is a significant difference between the two armies - tac squads in BA are slightly better at assault than those in codex:SM, hence the powerfist makes more sense. Could you get more/different things for the fist in BA? Probably, but as a special sub-codex it plays by different rules.

BA are all about the assaulting, so no complaints from me about the army being one-dimensional/less tactical than (for instance) Deadshane's. The powerfists are probably better in yours. They're not needed in his.

Absolutly GBF, I had glossed over that point because I was more concerned at the time with spending 225pts on fists.

You DO only have two units in your army that are concerned with this discussion, so in fact the whole point of many powerfists in an army doesnt apply in this case.

I will point out however that the list is still not optimised because I think you're really overlooking the goodness that are Powerweapons charged with Furious Charge....Your vets still have that dont they? Exclusively equipping your powerfists in those vet squads is negating bonuses that you pay points for. Another example of a powerfist possibly not being the best choice. Saving some points, a good idea might be two PW's and a single PF in each squad. That's what I think.

I have played my share of shooty SM armies including BA without any power fists in the tactical squads. Obviously you haven't read my posts here or you are trying to put a spin on what I have said. In general I take half my tactical squads with power fists when I play shooty SM lists.

G

Deadshane1 wrote:

scuddman wrote:I don't know about that, furious charge or not. One of the problems with being a fast, get in your face army is you run into monstrous creatures alot quickly and only have a turn or two to shoot them. Once injured, the fist dispatches them quickly. A power weapon is nigh worthless. But my point was it plays different, and the context matters.

Against many armies that have troopers however that ARENT MC's, marines, chaos marines, even eldar, a str5 power weapon (that actually gets another attack from a bolt pistol) can be TOTALLY preferable to a powerfist going last with one less attack.

....but Blood Angels arent my cup of tea anyway, so play them how you will.

Seeing his list however makes me understand a bit more why GBF is plugging tons of fists in Vanilla armies....he's in a bloodangel mentality. Tons of fists in a Vanilla marine list might be fine if you going to stick completely to close combat. I however dont see a CC armylist in the marine codex. I see a more toolboxy armylist with shooting as more of a speciality....thats just what I see.

He's all about throwing powerarmour with fists into close combat...if he can win games that way fine, I just dont see it as a good battleplan in this game with scads of genestealers, harlequins, berserkers, daemons, Tyranid warriors, and orks. So many things that are so much better than marines in CC....its no way to get massacres.

i think ill stick with 1-2 fists in an army, seems like a waste for something that can be done with las or missiles.

but with my ork, even suggesting to not take klaws is heresy!