This has been bugging me for a while lately. Are the Orks really as insanely powerful as everyone makes them out to be? Reading discussions all around the place, many people seem pretty defeatist when talking about the Orks, as if there were no option but to lose. Personally, I have never won, and usually get tabled, but I am hardly a brilliant general either. Looking over their Codex, they do have some good stuff. Shootaboyz are definitely under-costed, Nobs are extremely hitty, Lootas have the potential to destroy anything. They also have their fair share of garbage too, like Flashgitz. There is no question they are a powerful army, but are they as good as people make them out to be? They do not seem as obviously broken as the Fantasy Battle Daemons are, so surely it is all exaggerated. Surely?

When the new Orks came out, it was to be expected that people would call them broken and complain about them being unbeatable. This happens every single time a new release comes out. People normally learn to deal with the change in three or four months and move onto the next `broken' army to complain about. Orks have been out for quite a while, however, and people still treat them much the same. Perhaps this is just because there are so few armies updated to Fifth Edition so far, and this will all change once the Codex-release-machine stops jamming. Alternatively, could it be that this is purely the players? The metagame in 40K was heavily skewed towards MEQ, and this was reflected in people's lists and strategies. Now we have a true hoard running across the table, those lists and strategies have lost effectiveness. Are people perhaps still searching for the right balance in their play and this `problem' will go away once more people learn how to adapt?

An ork army is the same as every other race, they have strengths and weaknesses.
its up to a general to make use of a solid list and some good tactics.

and whats wrong with cheap boyz?
6 troop choices, 180 boyz, 1080 points

I guess people still haven't caught on that the king of 40k weaponry is the flamer, not the plasma gun. It has been from the beginning, but now even more so.

Use tactics,

I personally believe that yes, they are that good.

That is, unless you build SPECIFICALLY for them, then they are incredibly hard to beat.

I built my Eldar army specifically to beat Orks. In fact in my latest battle, I would have won, except that I got to the objective too late.

Had there been another turn the Orks would have been defeated.

So yes, they are insanely good. But if you build specifically for them then they're more manageable. (Kind of)

Never lost to orks in fifth edition yet. I've won twice and drawn once. They are good but not unbeatable.

While I hear a lot of wailing and nashing of teeth, nobody seems to be able to point to the one thing that over the top. Depending on who's making the comments, it's the Nob Bikers, or the Lootas, or the masses of ork boyz, or whatever is the local beat stick. There's a lot of cool stuff in the ork list which makes it very nice, but it can also also be beaten. There is nothing which is so uber that there isn't a counter for every army in the game. I honestly think it's just the usual new codex bitching.

The point with the Orks is ,as pointed out, that you can't expect your ordinary "take all comers" army and hope to beat orks,
you need to specially kit out your force the stand a chance. Stock up flamers, blast weapons and other weapons with many shots.
They are good, great but not unbeatable.
Plus i really think (or it is a fools hope ) that once all the new codices are out, the balance will be back
Well, happy hunting!


//Edge

if your marines, stock up on heavy bolters and assult cannons.
only thing they cant hurt in the army is a battlewagons front or side.

Pretty much what everyone here has said. Orks do tend to be reasonably tough.

I've never lost with my Orks against people's standard (read take on MEQ's) lists. On the other side though, I've seen my army eaten alive by lists geared to deal with Orks. Honestly, I think they're beatable with a balanced list, but people are still taking anti-MEQ lists, at least in my area. That will change, but it'll take some time.

I once wiped the floor with a Demon army. Few armies can hold their own against the mass of attacks even small Ork units can dish out.
They do have problems with AV14 though.

I also wonder if all the MEQ lists have become so standard that people have forgotten WHY the las-plas was the combo of choice. Lots of cookie cutter approaches out there from people who have been told don't take X, it sucks, but not WHY. Heavy bolters and flamers are two excellent examples of weapons that are not good against MEQs, but rock against horde armies, with their poor saves.

OnTheEdge wrote:The point with the Orks is ,as pointed out, that you can't expect your ordinary "take all comers" army and hope to beat orks,
you need to specially kit out your force the stand a chance.
//Edge

Agreed! If your army is anti-MEQ you should expect to lose to orks alot.

Another thing I've noticed is that people who play MEQ armies tend to get hasty, being used to be able to charge and come out on top
in most situations. And when they try their luck against orks they loose and they say that the orks are broken.

It all comes down to that ork armies want to get stuck and good i CC, but deny them that and they are done for.
Hug cover for a few turns and lower their insane numbers with some good fire and then leap out of cover and counter-attack.

Not fools prove but effective


//Edge

MY Orks are that good.


Just kidding. But seriously, it's nice to be able to wield my Ork horde Army as an effective combat weapon. I remember when I would win maybe 2-% of my games. Now it feel like I actually have a fighting chance, if I use my forces correctly

Orks are good, but not unstoppable. The newer codex and 5th moved them from near the bottom of the pile to nearer the top, and the metagame hasn't quite caught up yet.

BigToof wrote:While I hear a lot of wailing and nashing of teeth, nobody seems to be able to point to the one thing that over the top. Depending on who's making the comments, it's the Nob Bikers, or the Lootas, or the masses of ork boyz, or whatever is the local beat stick. There's a lot of cool stuff in the ork list which makes it very nice, but it can also also be beaten. There is nothing which is so uber that there isn't a counter for every army in the game. I honestly think it's just the usual new codex bitching.

So tell me, how do you counter Nob Bikers?

Also how do you kill Lootas?

How do you kill Snikrot?

How do you kill a horde of boyz?

How do you do it with a competitive list in a tournament setting that can also take on MEQs? Not only that, but I would like to see this list for every race since they all are able to counter the Orks.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:Orks are good, but not unstoppable. The newer codex and 5th moved them from near the bottom of the pile to nearer the top, and the metagame hasn't quite caught up yet.

People have been saying this since the codex came out a year ago. I expect to see it next year...and the year after that.

Blackmoor wrote:How do you do it with a competitive list in a tournament setting that can also take on MEQs?

Why is it solely the orks' fault for people being unable to beat orks, MEQ, and mech armies with one list?

I'd guess people are just bitter that their best power lists don't stand up to good old fashioned Orky violence.

Lets look at Lootas....Sure, they are incredibly shooty, even allowing for their piss poor BS of 2. However, they are still T4 with a 6+ save. Hardly an immovable object.

And tell me, if I invest heavily in Lootas for my army, as in maxing out on them, how many points have I spent on relatively flimsy troops, and how big a dent will be left in my overall strategy if you use your noodle and take them out as a priority? Sure, it is of course easier said than done. No debating that. But at 15 points a pop, thats a LOT of points I've sunk into a single element from my list.

So, whats good against Orks? Pieplates, obviously, anything roughly equivalent to a Heavy Bolter (and everyone has those!) other assorted template weapons, and for Morks sake, try not to let them pick the assaults. Use counter assaults to break up his line. Sacrificial Pawns are a classic part of Chess, so why not 40k? If I can chuck in a bunch of Assault Marines, or their ilk, to a relatively unmolested Ork unit, I can hold them up for a bit whilst whittling down their numbers. This allows me to concentrate the firepower of my other units more effectively, having at least temporarily removed a potential target from the equation.

Tau for example. What could be better for beating the snot out of Ork units than Kroot? Cheap, cheeful, shooty enough (pretty much have Bolters when you are fighting 6+ saves) and don't forget the Kroothounds for lovely high I decent S attacks. Sure, as with anything they engage the Kroot aren't terribly likely to walk away, but with the sheer volume of attacks they can kick out, and the new Cover Saves making them hard to kill, it's well worth it.

Orks are more of a mid to late game army. The first two or three turns are yours. Do your damage strategically. Never ever plan to wipe them out. It's doable, but exceedingly difficult to wipe Orks out. Try using units in synergy with each other, rather than worrying about Deathstar units. Work out Fireteams, consider counter assault units (favourite trick with my Tau is to put Kroot behind Firewarriors, switching places when the inevitable assault looms. Lots of rapid fire, and the promise of a kicking in HTH awaits your opponent....

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I'd guess people are just bitter that their best power lists don't stand up to good old fashioned Orky violence.

That is right! I am glad you came on board. The Orks are overpowered, and all of the other armies can’t build lists that can compete with them. That is why the OP asked “Are Orks really that good?” So your answer is yes.

I know you Ork players get upset when people point out that it is your codex that is winning your games and not your skill or tactics, but that is what is happening.

“Lets look at Lootas....Sure, they are incredibly shooty, even allowing for their piss poor BS of 2. However, they are still T4 with a 6+ save. Hardly an immovable object.

Let’s take a look at what you said.

Fiction: “They have 6+ save”
Fact: There will always be a green wall of orks between Lootas and what is shooting at them so they will get their 4+ cover save. This will be less of a factor for the lootas because they are either shooting at vehicles that do not benefit from screening troops, or the fact that they have AP4 and the sheer volume of their fire makes giving their target a 4+ cover save irrelevant.

Fiction: Hardly an immovable object.
Fact: I have never killed a loota squad. They are fearless when they are above 10 models, so good luck getting them to break. Ork players put the myth out there that Lootas can be killed. Let me tell you, they do not know what they are talking about.

Let’s play a game! What is the best weapon to kill Lootas with?

They answer is, nothing! A lot of people say that that it is the meta game where everyone takes las/plas to kill MEQs are the reasons why Orks do so well. So let's take a look at heavy bolters that ork players always say needs to be taken to kill them. So how many lootas can a heavy bolter kill? 2? 1? The answer is .6! Wow! So you can shoot 8 heavy bolters at a squad of 15 lootas (do they come in any other size?) and then they are only down to 10 models! And if you kill one more they have to take a LD check! Wow! Since we are playing in fantasy land we will forget that lootas also out-range heavy bolters by 12".

To sum up, 8 heavy bolters is a ton of firepower and it really does not do that much to them. So all you have to do is shoot 24 heavy bolters at a loota squad and you can kill them. Of course I would like to remind you that nothing happens in a vacuum, and that when you are shooting all of these heavy bolters at the lootas, there is a wall of ork boyz about to Waagh and hit your lines.

And tell me, if I invest heavily in Lootas for my army, as in maxing out on them, how many points have I spent on relatively flimsy troops, and how big a dent will be left in my overall strategy if you use your noodle and take them out as a priority? Sure, it is of course easier said than done. No debating that. But at 15 points a pop, thats a LOT of points I've sunk into a single element from my list.

I can’t believe what you are saying. Flimsy troops? There are a ton of them! Take them out? How? How do I kill lootas when I have a lot of boyz running at me? Lots of points to buy them? Yes, they are expensive, too bad your boyz are also so expensive…oh wait a minute they are dirt cheap!

Here is a real world example:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Blackmoor_goes_to_the_Las_Vegas_GT_Part_II_(The_GT)#Game_%232_Blackmoor%26rsquo%3Bs_Witch_Hunter%26rsquo%3Bs_vs._Ryan%26rsquo%3Bs_(Shep)_Orks

This is Game #2 at the LVGT against Shep’s Orks. He had:
• HQ
o Big Mek w/Kustom Force Field, ‘Eavy Armor, Cybork Body, Grot Oiler, Mek’s Tools
o Big Mek w/Kustom Force Field, ‘Eavy Armor, Cybork Body, Grot Oiler, Mek’s Tools
• Elites
o 15 Lootas
o 15 Lootas
• Troops
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
• Heavy Support
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Big Shootas
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Grotzookas
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Grotzookas

All those points in Lootas! He could only afford 9 Killa Kans and 90 boyz! He was only able to get a 4+ cover save to his whole “Flimsy” army. I guess that I should have shot at the lootas for 2 turns, and taken about 8 of them out, and ignored everything else in his army?

Not only did he waste so many points in Lootas that crippled his army so badly that he was only able to massacre all of his other opponents.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:How do you do it with a competitive list in a tournament setting that can also take on MEQs?

Why is it solely the orks' fault for people being unable to beat orks, MEQ, and mech armies with one list?

Because the question of the OP was "Are Orks really that good?" The answer is yes they are. I was giving an example of why they are that good.

Blackmoor wrote:Ork players put the myth out there that Lootas can be killed. Let me tell you, they do not know what they are talking about.

Yes, you're right, it's all a conspiracy. Lootas cannot be killed by anything ever, and they never have been.

Let’s play a game! What is the best weapon to kill Lootas with?

Close combat weapons.

Inferno cannons and mass pulse rifles and such will work too, but close combat is usually the best way to clear out fire bases hiding in cover.

So let's take a look at heavy bolters that ork players always say needs to be taken to kill them.

Actually you do have a point here; heavy bolters aren't that great against orks, flamers and combat resolution are where the money is.

Because the question of the OP was "Are Orks really that good?" The answer is yes they are. I was giving an example of why they are that good.

So they're that good because it's hard to beat them and space marines at the same time.

Why aren't the space marines the ones who are "that good," when it's so hard to beat them and horde orks at the same time?

Blackmoor wrote:

BigToof wrote:While I hear a lot of wailing and nashing of teeth, nobody seems to be able to point to the one thing that over the top. Depending on who's making the comments, it's the Nob Bikers, or the Lootas, or the masses of ork boyz, or whatever is the local beat stick. There's a lot of cool stuff in the ork list which makes it very nice, but it can also also be beaten. There is nothing which is so uber that there isn't a counter for every army in the game. I honestly think it's just the usual new codex bitching.

So tell me, how do you counter Nob Bikers?

Counter assault, shoot them, drop big pie plates on them. They are an UBER expensive unit, since you've taken nobs, put them on bikes, and added a pain boy. The cheapest possible nob biker mob is 135 points, less than a space marine tac squad. Add in the pain boy, and they jump to 210. This is slightly less than obliterators, who have better ranged attack, better armor, and comparable close combat skills. Add in any sort of toys, or more boys, and the mob turns into a huge point sink.

Blackmoor wrote:
Also how do you kill Lootas?

How do you kill a unit with T4, Sv6+? Just about ANYTHING will kill them, including a stiff breeze.

Blackmoor wrote:
How do you kill Snikrot?

T4, Sv 6+? Once again, hardly invulnerible. His ability to come in from any table edge is nice, but it's only slightly better than any other infiltrating unit in the game, and he costs 85 points, or 60 points more than a nob for the squad. It's a pretty horrible deal, IMHO.

Blackmoor wrote:
How do you kill a horde of boyz?

Massed small arms fire will do wonders against ork boyz. Pie plates are also nice, and other template weapons, but any army with a good number of troops should be able to put a hurting on orks as they cross the table, then clean up the survivors. If I was playing marines I'd take a lot of plasma cannons and missile launchers to a tournament anyway. Both are excellent at taking out just about everything.

Blackmoor wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I'd guess people are just bitter that their best power lists don't stand up to good old fashioned Orky violence.

That is right! I am glad you came on board. The Orks are overpowered, and all of the other armies can’t build lists that can compete with them. That is why the OP asked “Are Orks really that good?” So your answer is yes.

I know you Ork players get upset when people point out that it is your codex that is winning your games and not your skill or tactics, but that is what is happening.

“Lets look at Lootas....Sure, they are incredibly shooty, even allowing for their piss poor BS of 2. However, they are still T4 with a 6+ save. Hardly an immovable object.

Let’s take a look at what you said.

Fiction: “They have 6+ save”
Fact: There will always be a green wall of orks between Lootas and what is shooting at them so they will get their 4+ cover save. This will be less of a factor for the lootas because they are either shooting at vehicles that do not benefit from screening troops, or the fact that they have AP4 and the sheer volume of their fire makes giving their target a 4+ cover save irrelevant.

Fiction: Hardly an immovable object.
Fact: I have never killed a loota squad. They are fearless when they are above 10 models, so good luck getting them to break. Ork players put the myth out there that Lootas can be killed. Let me tell you, they do not know what they are talking about.

Let’s play a game! What is the best weapon to kill Lootas with?

They answer is, nothing! A lot of people say that that it is the meta game where everyone takes las/plas to kill MEQs are the reasons why Orks do so well. So let's take a look at heavy bolters that ork players always say needs to be taken to kill them. So how many lootas can a heavy bolter kill? 2? 1? The answer is .6! Wow! So you can shoot 8 heavy bolters at a squad of 15 lootas (do they come in any other size?) and then they are only down to 10 models! And if you kill one more they have to take a LD check! Wow! Since we are playing in fantasy land we will forget that lootas also out-range heavy bolters by 12".

To sum up, 8 heavy bolters is a ton of firepower and it really does not do that much to them. So all you have to do is shoot 24 heavy bolters at a loota squad and you can kill them. Of course I would like to remind you that nothing happens in a vacuum, and that when you are shooting all of these heavy bolters at the lootas, there is a wall of ork boyz about to Waagh and hit your lines.

And tell me, if I invest heavily in Lootas for my army, as in maxing out on them, how many points have I spent on relatively flimsy troops, and how big a dent will be left in my overall strategy if you use your noodle and take them out as a priority? Sure, it is of course easier said than done. No debating that. But at 15 points a pop, thats a LOT of points I've sunk into a single element from my list.

I can’t believe what you are saying. Flimsy troops? There are a ton of them! Take them out? How? How do I kill lootas when I have a lot of boyz running at me? Lots of points to buy them? Yes, they are expensive, too bad your boyz are also so expensive…oh wait a minute they are dirt cheap!

Here is a real world example:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Blackmoor_goes_to_the_Las_Vegas_GT_Part_II_(The_GT)#Game_%232_Blackmoor%26rsquo%3Bs_Witch_Hunter%26rsquo%3Bs_vs._Ryan%26rsquo%3Bs_(Shep)_Orks

This is Game #2 at the LVGT against Shep’s Orks. He had:
• HQ
o Big Mek w/Kustom Force Field, ‘Eavy Armor, Cybork Body, Grot Oiler, Mek’s Tools
o Big Mek w/Kustom Force Field, ‘Eavy Armor, Cybork Body, Grot Oiler, Mek’s Tools
• Elites
o 15 Lootas
o 15 Lootas
• Troops
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
• Heavy Support
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Big Shootas
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Grotzookas
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Grotzookas

All those points in Lootas! He could only afford 9 Killa Kans and 90 boyz! He was only able to get a 4+ cover save to his whole “Flimsy” army. I guess that I should have shot at the lootas for 2 turns, and taken about 8 of them out, and ignored everything else in his army?

Not only did he waste so many points in Lootas that crippled his army so badly that he was only able to massacre all of his other opponents.

Did I say Lootas are wasted points? Oh, no I didn't. In the least. Putting words in my mouth step one.

Orks are hardly overpowered. People are still paranoid about coming up against MEQ units, so overload on high S, lowAP, low firing weapons. Therein lies the problem.

And against said army, I'd have gone hell for leather early in the game to take out the Big Meks. If he's planning on using those Kustom Force Fields to achieve Victory, he'll be sorely disappointed when they are dead. What is he going to do against High Armour armies? AV14 will laugh in his face. He will struggle to deal with such things as Tyrants and Carnifex.

But of course, there couldn't possibly be even the slightest chance that he won his game through good generalship could there. Oh no. He used Orks which means he won because he used Orks, because when you use Orks they win because they are Orks.....

Let’s play a game! What is the best weapon to kill Lootas with?

Deep striking a shooty unit right next to them does the trick. I did it with my Nurgle marked terminators a few games ago. I'll tell you that close ranged rapid fire twin linked bolters, a reaper autocannon, and a bolter/flamer on the squad leader will pretty much do for a glass cannon like a loota squad.

TR

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:Let’s play a game! What is the best weapon to kill Lootas with?

Close combat weapons.

Inferno cannons and mass pulse rifles and such will work too, but close combat is usually the best way to clear out fire bases hiding in cover.

How do you propose to use close combat weapons and flamers? You only have 48" and an entire ork army between you and the lootas. Inferno cannons are better. Too bad only one army can take them, and they have a 24" range and the lootas still out range them. Not only that, but if you try to move hellhounds up to shoot, you get Ork Boyz charging at them and you have given them a free 6" assault move.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:Because the question of the OP was "Are Orks really that good?" The answer is yes they are. I was giving an example of why they are that good.

So they're that good because it's hard to beat them and space marines at the same time.

Why aren't the space marines the ones who are "that good," when it's so hard to beat them and horde orks at the same time?

What I was saying is that you can build a good, well rounded army that can beat every other codex out there from Necons, Tau, Chaos, Tyranids, to Dark Eldar, but you will not be able to beat Orks. That is the definition of a broken codex.

You really are a negative nancy aren't you?

No wonder you never win against Orks. You're so busy thinking of reasons why something might not work, you never bother looking for what might work.

You clearly have decided not to listen to anyone and instead just declare yourself correct.

So tell me, how do you counter Nob Bikers?

Also how do you kill Lootas?

How do you kill Snikrot?

How do you kill a horde of boyz?

late i know , but:


counter nob bikers with instant death, most forms of cannon do the job well, a unit of las dev's should target them if no battle wagons are about or in LOS.

lootas?
lash them out the way, shoot them at long range, blast weapons, they are normal orks, just with random guns, nothing hard to kill about them.

snikrots stats arent too good, he lacks the ability to get through armour, so a unit of marines could possibly beat him in combat.

hordes are easy;
flamers, any blast weapon available, multi shot weapons, make full use of rapid fire.


orks are pretty easy to beat if you have a list to do so with, like if your fighting any other army.

Blackmoor wrote:
I know you Ork players get upset when people point out that it is your codex that is winning your games and not your skill or tactics, but that is what is happening.

Or maybe it's your skill and tactics that are losing you games. Ever think of that?

I have to agree with Trench Raider, Deep Striking a unit of Terminators beside a unit of Lootas will clean them out pretty well, though I prefer a Heavy Flamethrower for my Terminators.

Likewise a squad of Scourges with Splinter Cannons and a Terrorfex will splat them hard.

so if the dex is in the orks favour, why am i able to beat ork using tau or marines?

its all about how you play a match.

Well JD, like me it seems you are merely fond of tearing holes in the space time continuum of the Internets and it's ineffable wisdom.

I play Orcs in Fantasy. Apparently I should lose most of my games, and stand no chance against 'Tier 1' armies. Yet I have thrashed Dark Elves, Chaos Daemons, Vampire Counts....the list goes on.

Who knows, perhaps if we get enough people in a room together, we can rip a big enough whole that all the pointless whinging gets sucked into the void....

lol, doc, a list means nothing
ive seen a newer player slaughter a vet using a gak list, its all down to tactics and how you field your army.

being an ork player, ive learned over time what the boyz hate, and using my tau i can play on that knowing best units for ork hunting XD

after using nids all the time, then ork, and now tau i do have a few slip ups from time to time XD
forgetting that FW's dont quite cope with CC like orks or nids can

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Did I say Lootas are wasted points? Oh, no I didn't. In the least. Putting words in my mouth step one.

Orks are hardly overpowered. People are still paranoid about coming up against MEQ units, so overload on high S, lowAP, low firing weapons. Therein lies the problem.

I didn't. If you look at both my LVGT and Batlimore GT armies, I loaded up on heavy bolters, psycannons and flamers to kill orks. I ended up with a tie in the LVGT (see the post above). And a loss at the Baltimore GT.

And against said army, I'd have gone hell for leather early in the game to take out the Big Meks. If he's planning on using those Kustom Force Fields to achieve Victory, he'll be sorely disappointed when they are dead. What is he going to do against High Armour armies? AV14 will laugh in his face. He will struggle to deal with such things as Tyrants and Carnifex.

How do you kill big meks when they are IC and are buried in a unit of 30 orks hidden behind a wall of killa kans? And like I said, that army struggled to win so much that he massacred all his other opponents.

But of course, there couldn't possibly be even the slightest chance that he won his game through good generalship could there. Oh no. He used Orks which means he won because he used Orks, because when you use Orks they win because they are Orks....

His is a good general, and that is the problem. Orks in the hands of a good general are almost impossible to beat.

AS IS ANY OTHER ARMY.

For crying out loud!

You just said, right there, the guy is a good general, yes?

And yet earlier, you said people only win with Orks because they are using Orks, and thats because Codex Orks means you win because it has Orks in it.

Get some continuity in your whinging at least.

Let me put it this way. I am confident I am a better Fantasy player than yourself. IF I happened to borrow my flatmates Vampire army, and I thrashed you, does that mean I only won because of a nominally 'Tier 1' army? No. I won because I know what I'm doing with said force, and can slip in nasty surprises you won't spot until I've crushed your centre. I could do the same with an all Goblin army, if I am a competent general.....

Blackmoor wrote:How do you propose to use close combat weapons and flamers? You only have 48" and an entire ork army between you and the lootas. Inferno cannons are better. Too bad only one army can take them, and they have a 24" range and the lootas still out range them. Not only that, but if you try to move hellhounds up to shoot, you get Ork Boyz charging at them and you have given them a free 6" assault move.

Deep strike? Outflank? Use fast units to get there quickly?

And yeah, you're right, it's really hard to beat Lootas with one unit when the ork player also has the rest of his army.

This "out ranging" thing is getting a little silly too; when's the last time you played a game where your army was 48" away from the enemy?

Orkeosaurus wrote:What I was saying is that you can build a good, well rounded army that can beat every other codex out there from Necons, Tau, Chaos, Tyranids, to Dark Eldar, but you will not be able to beat Orks. That is the definition of a broken codex.

That's just not true.

There are people posting all over this thread that have been able to beat orks, there are people posting all over this thread that have had their orks beaten.

You can build an army that is good against deathguard and land raiders, but bad against orks, but you can build an army that's good against deathguard and orks but bad against land raiders, or one that has trouble with deathguard, etc, etc.

Yet everyone blames orks, and not the other armies that make anti-horde so much less useful.

Yes, winning or losing has nothing to do with how powerful a codex is, it is all about the players.

I wonder how can it be that Ork armies never won GTs all through their long 3rd edition codex, but when the 4th edition codex came out that they won every US GT? How is that possible? Maybe everyone took anti-horde weapons in 3rd and 4th edition, and nobody build their armies to kill MEQs? No, that does not sound right. Maybe it was some magic by Gork and Mork that made only bad players play ork in 3rd and 4th, and only good players in 5th?

What is the reason why Orks never won anything in third and fourth edition, but now are winning everything in 5th?

There is no debating that they got upgunned with the new Book, and rightly so.

But to the point of being unbeatable? Hell no.

They are also an extremely popular army, but oddly one that comes to prominence mainly when there are new models.

Tell you what, do you have access to the percentages of which armies were played? As in, 10% Marines, 2% Dark Eldar etc?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:AS IS ANY OTHER ARMY.

For crying out loud!

You just said, right there, the guy is a good general, yes?

And yet earlier, you said people only win with Orks because they are using Orks, and thats because Codex Orks means you win because it has Orks in it.

Get some continuity in your whinging at least.

What I say is that an ork army makes a poor general hard to beat, and a good general impossible to beat.

I said that he was a good general, and so am I. I ended up with the most favorable deployment, in the most favorable mission and even with my anti-ork army I was only able to get a tie. If we were playing any other mission with any other deployment I would have lost, and there would have been nothing that I could have done about it.

So you categorically, one hundred percent were not actually outplayed?

*facepalm*

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:So you categorically, one hundred percent were not actually outplayed?

*facepalm*

That is right.

Words fail me. They really do.

Orks are kind of like the Dark Elves. People feel bad for them because of past codices and give them a free pass.

Heck, even I was okay with them. But now it's kind of obvious that unless you build -specifically- for them, you're screwed.

Oh, and congrats on building that army that can kill Orks. Have fun against that 3 Land Raider list next!

When I played balanced Guard (almost quite literally half-anti MEQ, half anti-Horde) I lost terribly.

I make an Eldar list with a metric ton of Scatter Lasers, now I have a better chance against Orks. But not against an army with lots of AV 13+.

You have to build an unbalanced list to beat the Orks. That's my problem.

And then we talk about the undercosted Orks.

Guess what, in 4th edition, Eldar players said, "Oh Falcons aren't unbeatable! You're just not playing against them right." What a load of BS.

Nob Bikers are the new Falcons.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Orks are kind of like the Dark Elves. People feel bad for them because of past codices and give them a free pass.

What?

Orks have been screamed about ever since their new codex.

I still laugh at the guard players who think that if their codex becomes overpowered anyone will care that they've had a bad codex up until then.

Oh, and congrats on building that army that can kill Orks. Have fun against that 3 Land Raider list next!

I make an Eldar list with a metric ton of Scatter Lasers, now I have a better chance against Orks. But not against an army with lots of AV 13+.

And here it is again. I can't make an army that's good against mech lists, hordes, and MEQ at the same time, so it's the hordes that are unbalancing the game.

Simply because until the new ork codex, every horde army really sucked. Guants? Worthless, everyone played nidzilla or stealershock, same as now. Guard? Guard infantry has no killing power, all their power is in the heavy and specials. Orks? 9 points for a slugga boy, so no. LatD? Sorry, GW doesn't have 20 minutes to update your army, they have to release another space marine codex.

Thus, when hordes are finally a real option, everyone complains.

(Nob bikers are a whole different ball game, of course; they're the standard nidzilla/mechdar/whatever is the tournament dominating power list at the time. They'll go down, eventually, and something else will take their place. Always does.)

I don’t expect you to get it but let’s try this…

Everyone can build a list that can beat everyone but Orks.

Orks can build a list that can beat everyone.

Which is better?

Blackmoor wrote:Everyone can build a list that can beat everyone but Orks.

Orks can build a list that can beat everyone.

Too bad it's not true.


Orks are probably the best of armies around right now, but one of the armies is always going to be the best.

They're not so powerful that no one ever stands a chance against them, or that they turn terrible generals into automatic winners, or that nothing in the game can kill their lootas, or any of the hysterics you keep claiming.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Orks are kind of like the Dark Elves. People feel bad for them because of past codices and give them a free pass.

What?

Orks have been screamed about ever since their new codex.

I still laugh at the guard players who think that if their codex becomes overpowered anyone will care that they've had a bad codex up until then.

And then there's some of us, the small minority, who actually want a balanced codex. Whudathunkit?!

Oh, and congrats on building that army that can kill Orks. Have fun against that 3 Land Raider list next!

I make an Eldar list with a metric ton of Scatter Lasers, now I have a better chance against Orks. But not against an army with lots of AV 13+.

And here it is again. I can't make an army that's good against mech lists, hordes, and MEQ at the same time, so it's the hordes that are unbalancing the game.

I never said it was the hordes, I said it was the Orks. I can make a balanced list that can defeat a swarm Nid army, and then after that, with the same list, defeat a mech army.

Simply because until the new ork codex, every horde army really sucked. Guants? Worthless, everyone played nidzilla or stealershock, same as now. Guard? Guard infantry has no killing power, all their power is in the heavy and specials. Orks? 9 points for a slugga boy, so no. LatD? Sorry, GW doesn't have 20 minutes to update your army, they have to release another space marine codex.

Thus, when hordes are finally a real option, everyone complains.

(Nob bikers are a whole different ball game, of course; they're the standard nidzilla/mechdar/whatever is the tournament dominating power list at the time. They'll go down, eventually, and something else will take their place. Always does.)

I do agree that hordes sucked, but the solution was like taking a machine gun to a paintball gun match. The solution was over the top.

Yes, because 6 point models with Str 4, WS4, and T4 with 4 attacks, and that are practically fearless are REALLY balanced.

I should at least be able to squeak out a win if a use a balanced list. In all honesty, I'm actually kind of afraid of what will happen when I go against my friend's Dark Angels with my current Eldar army.

I don't care that hordes are good now. It's perfectly fine as it makes sense. Orks and hordes are like peanut butter and jelly. I don't care about that.

But they're underpriced, and that's my problem.

I have faced the new Orks a couple of times, always with my all-comers list, and I've not been OMG DEY ARE 2 GUD! Now, I haven't faced the Stormboyz squad will the special character in them, but I have faced the Battlewagon full of Ghazgull + ridiculous Armor/invul/FNP squad, with trukks full of nobz, nob bikers, and deffkoptaz zipping around willy-nilly. I had trouble with them, to be sure, but it's the kind of trouble I would expect from an army that has an up to date book and wasn't written to be a 'fluff'-dud. I haven't even faced them with the new Marine book yet (Demonic infestation, cleanse and burn baby), but something tells me that my list (which has changed almost zero) is waaaaaaay better now that my Sternguard and Redeemer full of TH/SS termies are looking for a good krumpin.

I guess I should also clarify that I haven't faced the 45-loota redonkulessness either. Maybe that would change my attitude about the new Orks?

In the final analysis, some book or another will always be the king of the heap. If it's gotta be somebody, I'm glad it's Greenskins, they are one of my favorite aspects of the hobby.

bloody hell, this is still going on 0_o

just a note that no one has mentioned yet;

they have a new dex, it doesent mean its any better, it means people arent used to the changes when fighting orks.

when the whole sternguard drop trick started everyone complained about it being a instant win, people seemed to think that they were invincible at the time.

give it a few months for people to start getting more used to orks and how to beat them and it will be fine.
if you lose against every ork army, then maybe you need to change your list or tactics.

4 units of 10 tau fire warrors.

hitting on a 4+ with 30" range.
wounding on a 3+
no saves.

20 hits.
14 wounds.
14 dead boyz.

thats just a basic tau firewall, 14 dead boyz a turn, once within 12" thats 28 dead boyz a turn.

take into account battle suits, stealth suits, railheads ect.

tau take ork apart without many problems, just need a good plan and take out high priority units 1st.

Don't forget those luvverly Markerlights as wel, dropping cover saves, improving accracy....blamblamblam! Orks drop like Flies. And if they get too close for comfort, jump a Mob with some Kroot and watch the limbs fly!

crisis suit with burst cannon and flamer
move into range, shoot, run off.

with typical ork shooting they wont kill a suit unless they drag it into CC lol

Stealth Suits could make a pretty mess of Lootas as well. Stupid static Orkses! You just stand there whilst I shred you then go back into hiding. I'll even take a Dangerous Terrain test twice a turn to take out all that AP4!

Vladsimpaler wrote:And then there's some of us, the small minority, who actually want a balanced codex. Whudathunkit?!

You don't have to tell me that, I play IG too.

I never said it was the hordes, I said it was the Orks. I can make a balanced list that can defeat a swarm Nid army, and then after that, with the same list, defeat a mech army.

That's because swarm Nids are terrible!

From a competitive gaming standpoint, at least. That's what I was getting at.

People expect to be able to build lists that emphasize killing tanks and MEQs, and still beat hordes, because up until the ork codex all the horde armies were low tier.

Now people go up against a horde army that's as powerful as the big mech and MEQ armies, and they don't understand why they have so much trouble beating them.

I do agree that hordes sucked, but the solution was like taking a machine gun to a paintball gun match. The solution was over the top.

Yes, because 6 point models with Str 4, WS4, and T4 with 4 attacks, and that are practically fearless are REALLY balanced.

I should at least be able to squeak out a win if a use a balanced list. In all honesty, I'm actually kind of afraid of what will happen when I go against my friend's Dark Angels with my current Eldar army.

I don't care that hordes are good now. It's perfectly fine as it makes sense. Orks and hordes are like peanut butter and jelly. I don't care about that.

But they're underpriced, and that's my problem.

First of all, yeah you're really giving this an unbiased viewpoint by quoting the ork statline on the charge without mentioning it.

Second, I don't see why you think that you should be able to "squeek out a win" every time you play; are you just that great of a tactician or something? Maybe feeling entiled to a win is part of your problem?

Third, the problem is that "balanced" lists are not balanced correctly. "Balanced" has meant anti-MEQ, ant-armor, and anti-monstrous creature with some anti-horde occasionally thrown in as an afterthought for quite a while now. It's not like that anymore. Change your perception of what constitutes a "balanced list," so that it includes more anti-horde than it did before.

And yes, 180 boys are going to be hard for a balanced list to kill, but it's no different from 8 monstrous creatures, or 5 land raiders, or any other army that spams something to the breaking point. And it's not the cause of the problem any more than the other spamming lists are.

doc, your being a bit of an ork nob with that comment mate
stealth or not, 45 shots from deffgunz will stop most things XD

That's because swarm Nids are terrible!

and what is wrong with a nid army, max size 6 troop choices with out number?

backed up by bid nids of course

Thats why you keep at maximum range, and keep jumping in and out of cover.

Again, use a MArkerlight or two, and you are laughing at all the dead Orks!

Foolproof. Nope. Works? Absolutely!

Orkeosaurus wrote:
Orks are probably the best of armies around right now, but one of the armies is always going to be the best.

They're not so powerful that no one ever stands a chance against them, or that they turn terrible generals into automatic winners, or that nothing in the game can kill their lootas, or any of the hysterics you keep claiming.

Bingo! We have a winner! It's not an insta-win, it's not unbeatable.

I do agree that hordes sucked, but the solution was like taking a machine gun to a paintball gun match. The solution was over the top.

Yes, because 6 point models with Str 4, WS4, and T4 with 4 attacks, and that are practically fearless are REALLY balanced.

Let's get our facts straight. Ork choppa boyz are Str 3, and only have 3 base attacks. The fact that you confuse their furious charge with their base-line stats tells me that you let the orks get the charge. If you do, you're going to lose, since that's what orks want more than anything. You charge them, and all of a sudden it's a bunch of guys going into a weak, slow, lightly armored bunch of guys.

But they're underpriced, and that's my problem.

You could be correct about that. I was originally thinking that the price had dropped a point, not 3 per boy. At 9 points a slugga boy was overpriced. At 6 maybe a bit under.

Jive Professor wrote:
I guess I should also clarify that I haven't faced the 45-loota redonkulessness either. Maybe that would change my attitude about the new Orks?

In the final analysis, some book or another will always be the king of the heap. If it's gotta be somebody, I'm glad it's Greenskins, they are one of my favorite aspects of the hobby.

Which may be the other issue. It's a question of tournament logistics, vs one-off games. I would never expect to see ANYBODY put together 45 ork lootas for casual play. Same with some of the other things in the list that Blackmoor was posting, such at the 9 Killa Kanz, or the 6x30 boyz lists. And I'd suspect that anybody who did field that sort of crap would get the same treatment as somebody who decided to field 9 obliterators + 2 demon princes with lash, nobody would want to play with them more than once.

It's not a fun list to play, it's not a fun list to play against, it's not a fun list to paint and assemble. QED the person that who's doing that sort of thing probably isn't a fun person to play against.

Blackmoor wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:So you categorically, one hundred percent were not actually outplayed?

*facepalm*

That is right.

You almost sound like Stelek here, Blackmoor.

6 points per boy makes up for the bloody evil cost and junk use of flash gitz ok?


also, orks dont allways win in combat

good trick with daemons is to use all 6 troop choices, take 3 units of 8 horrors and 3 units of 12+ bloodletters.

use horrors to wittle down mobs, then charge in with bloodletters, wont be much left to hurt you.



dumbest thing ive seen is someone taking kairos in his daemons against ork (fair enough) and then for some unknown reason taking skarbrand too 0_o
according to him it gives him the edge XD
yea, 30 orks throwing out 120 attacks on the charge, now your giving them re-rolls aswell? dumbass XD

lord_blackfang wrote:Or maybe it's your skill and tactics that are losing you games. Ever think of that?

Please, post your current GT record so we can compare it to Blackmoores.

Actually I would like all of these people who say the dex isn't all that to post their competitive record on a GT circuit. Do any of you even have experience with tournament level games? Apparently we are all still terrified of the *new* codex over a year after it was released. Must have been the same thing with Nidzilla in 4th, or Iron Warriors in 3rd.

If you play on a casual level, then great. More than likely both you and your opponents have fun and get to blow off some steam on Saturday mornings. (or whenever you play) So the entire argument of 'are orcs overpowered' doesn't even apply to you. But anyone trying to play in a competitive event has a staggering amount to scream about with GW's rampant power creep. Given that orcs and chaos consistently take away the most places out of the top 10 at a tourney, its kind of hard not to call the 'dex overpowered.

I think everyone needs to take a step back here and realize were talking about completely different types of players here. (A fact that GW tries very hard to ignore)

P.S. and Blackmoore, you do sound like Stelek there.

Platuan4th wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:So you categorically, one hundred percent were not actually outplayed?

*facepalm*

That is right.

You almost sound like Stelek here, Blackmoor.

How dare you!

I am good, but I never say that I do not lose, and that I can beat everybody and that winning is not a challenge.

What I think Mad Doc Grotsnik is trying to do is say that I might have been outplayed. Here is the complete batrep along with Shep's (My opponents) commentary. If you can point out what I could have done differently to win that game I would welcome that feedback.

Game 2 Las Vegas GT Batrep:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/218013.page

And for the record, I do make mistakes and I do get outplayed. I can dig up my first game of the 'Ardboyz where I was playing against eldar and I wasted 2 turns shooting at his Wave Serpents when I should have been shooting at his troops.

Blackmoor wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:So you categorically, one hundred percent were not actually outplayed?

*facepalm*

That is right.

You almost sound like Stelek here, Blackmoor.

How dare you!

Didn't mean to offend, just a joke. I wouldn't wish being Stelek on anyone, not even Stelek.

so the dex is overpowered because ork + chaos took most of the top sposts?
chaos have allways done so.
orks, well, how many players took ork for it? it was a new list, so im pretty sure there were alot of people taking ork.

and just a note, i didnt dispute blackmoor's ability to play, i know he is more than capable.

just a note though blackmoor, what was the list you took?

I, for the record, was not trying to insist that I was better than GT players, only that I hadn't encountered any issues with the new book, and that if I were to play other combos (though I have played a few of them) I might change my mind.

I'm sorry, I didn't know I'm not allowed to have an opinion unless I win at GTs. Better let the whiners know! We've had what, half a dozen GTs since the Codex is out, and I'm sure I've seen more than that many people complain about it.

Didn't mean to offend, just a joke. I wouldn't wish being Stelek on anyone, not even Stelek.

sorry, but that did actually make me LOL, sounds like some form of flesh eating virus.

JD21290 wrote:
tau take ork apart without many problems, just need a good plan and take out high priority units 1st.

This is absurd. Tau are the weakest army in 5th edition. Certainly Orks can be beat, just not by Tau.

My list for the broadside bash over in the armies forum won't have much of a problem with any incarnation of orks or meq's. It might have a few problems if someone brings closer to 8-11 vehicles but it's a balanced list that isn't worried about orks.

The trick a lot of people miss with orks is proper fire control and controlling charges. I haven't lost any games against orks yet w/my GK's, Marines, or Nids. To me people failure's to adapt is what's killing them, not the orks.

Oh and for everyone out there, sheer number of shots and templates kill marines just as well as orks. And for gods sake charge a wounded ork squad from time to time, you'd be amazed what happens.

This is absurd. Tau are the weakest army in 5th edition. Certainly Orks can be beat, just not by Tau.

have you used tau against ork in any games?
ive only played ork 3 times with tau, but so far im 2/1/0 with them, and the ork lists werent a bad build, not only that, but ive seen tau beat ork plenty of times.

5th hasnt made tau shooting any less devastating.

IntoTheRain wrote:

P.S. and Blackmoore, you do sound like Stelek there.

I just wanted to say that I was talking about that one game, and I do not think I was outplayed. Most of the post report criticism was directed at Shep and what he could have done differently, or what he could have brought that could have beaten my army.

I know Shep was a good player when he moved his lootas before shooting. A bad player would have shot, then realized that he was out of range, then would have moved them wasting a turn.

I also said that if it was any other deployment or mission, I would have lost. I feel bad for Shep. He had a good chance at winning the GT but he ended up against the wrong army with the worst possible mission.

And for gods sake charge a wounded ork squad from time to time, you'd be amazed what happens.

i dont mean this in an offensive way, but piss off
fire warriors are not built for fighting orks XD
have enough trouble killing gretchin in CC lol

Being the most powerful army is not the same as being overpowered, and it is certainly not the same as automatically dominating the game.

There's always an army that's the most powerful, that's a given, with GW's 1337 game design skillz.

orks are tough. their presence or possible presence in an event makes you cahnge you all comers list to all comers + orks. that being said certian armies are really good at killing orks. My berzerker horde loves to face ork armies. lash them in and make them dissappear.

marines could include a drop podding ironclad with two heavy flamers as loota remover. not only do you stand a good chance of taking out a squad of lootas. something else needs to go try and kill it.

yes they are overpowered in the sense you have to change your all comers list. with the guard dex coming out increasing the horde armies out there the all comers lists are less anti-MEQ so marines get better.

ok, just an example, but take any GK / marine army with raider spam, orks hate AV14, monoliths have to be pretty much ignored by ork, no matter what damage its doing to the boyz, unless of course you have a klaw close by.

yes they are overpowered in the sense you have to change your all comers list.

sorry, but i see the phrase "all comers list" alot, there is no such thing.
you mean a list that has average everything rather than more anti armour or more anti horde?

JD21290 wrote:

just a note though blackmoor, what was the list you took?

* HQ
o Inquisitor Lord w/Scourging, Bolter, 2 Sages, 2 Familiars, 2 Gun Servitors w/Heavy Bolters, 1 Gun Servitors w/Plasma Cannon
o Inquisitor Lord w/Emperor’s Tarot, Psychic Hood, Null Rod, Psycannon, 2 Mystics, 2 Sages, 3 Familiars, 2 Gun Servitors w/Heavy Bolters, 1 Gun Servitors w/Plasma Cannon
* Troops
o 9 Sisters of Battle w/Melta Gun, Heavy Flamer, Veteran Sister Superior, Book of St. Lucious, Rhino w/ EA and Smoke
o 9 Sisters of Battle w/Melta Gun, Heavy Flamer, Veteran Sister Superior w/Book of St. Lucious and Rhino w/ EA and Smoke
o 5 Storm troopers w/2 plasma guns Chimera w/Multi Laser, Heavy Bolter
o 5 Storm troopers w/2 plasma guns Chimera w/Multi Laser, Heavy Bolter
o 5 Storm troopers w/2 melta guns Chimera w/Multi Laser, Heavy Bolter
* Heavy Support
o Exorcist
o Exorcist
o Exorcist


I changed it to this for the Baltimore GT:

HQ

1. Demon Hunter Inquisitor Lord w/Psycanon, Null Rod
1. 2 Gun Servitors w/Heavy Bolters
2. 1 Gun Servitor w/Plasma Canon
3. 2 Sages
4. 3 Mystics
5. 3 Familiars
2. Chimera

This unit is good for starting on the board, and shooting the crap out of things. The plasma cannon with the sage’s re-roll are weapons of mass destruction. The mystics also go a long way toward slowing down a lot of armies. Then it has a lot of bullet catchers for durability when placed in 4+ cover (even though I can’t make a 4+ save).

1. Canoness w/Blessed Weapon, Book of St. Lucious

Nothing special, just a mandatory HQ with a little assault punch

Troops

1. 9 Sister of Battle w/ Melta Gun, Heavy Flamer
1. 1 Veteran Sister Superior w/ Book of St. Lucious

Standard squad. At the LVGT I took a rhino for them, but to lower the kill points, I thought I would put them in the DH Inq’s Chimera. It will also add some firepower to the army that I lost when I dropped a Storm trooper Squad.

1. 9 Sister of Battle w/ Melta Gun, Heavy Flamer
1. 1 Veteran Sister Superior w/Book of St. Lucious
2. 1 Rhino w/Smoke, Extra Armor

I wanted to add an eviserator, but I did not finish the model in time.

1. 5 Storm troopers w/2 Melta Guns
1. Chimera

An overachieving unit that was used to good effect at the LVGT.

1. 5 Storm troopers w/2 Plasma Guns
1. Chimera

A unit that I use to take down hard targets.

1. 6 Grey Knights w/2 Psycanons
1. 1 Justicar

A little assault and a little firepower to anchor the lines, and to hold objectives.

Heavy Support

1. 1 Exorcist
2. 1 Exorcist
3. 1 Exorcist


And I lost in Game #1 to...wait for it...Orks!

Batrep of Game #1 of the Baltimore GT here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Blackmoor_goes_to_the_Baltimore_GT

In this game I could have played better.

His lootas shoot my empty Chimera. He can only get 6 to shoot at it and he rolls only one shot each. He then rolls 3 hits at 5+ and then he rolls 2 '6's to get two penetrating hits and he blows it up. Grrrr.

I shot his Warboss on a bike because he seems like the biggest threats, and I roll very poorly and do one wound to him. I shoot at his Nobz at the top of the board killing one of them.

I unload my Inq squad at at boyz squad and kill just one ork. The Inq rolled 3, ‘1’s to wound and the Heavy Bolters rolled ‘1’s and ‘2’s. Not a good start.

Snikrot comes on and goes after the Exorcists, and fails to kill them, but he immobilized one (It was a mistake not to go after the SoBs).

Everything else shoots at the Warboss and puts only 2 wounds on him.

I shot my entire army at his warboss and barely kill it.

He has 3 guys on the hill and rolls a “6” for his Waaarrrggg move

I rolled 3 hits, and I ended up rolling 1, 1, and 2 to wound

no offence here blackmoor, but to me that looks like alot of bad luck on your part, and some crazy luck on his part, allmost everything in that game seemed to focus around dice luck, yours being bad and his being good.

that was nothing to do with orks being "overpowered" as everyone keeps saying.

Wow, this was an amusing thread to read, I'm sorry I missed out on so much of it.

Blackmoor stating that the orks are overpowered.

Everyone else beating him down for being a whiner.

I've never seen one person be so right against so many others who choose to ignore facts.

Adepticon
Vegas
Baltimore
Lootas with cover saves
100's of threads on dual bikernob lists
TONS of new ork players crawling out of the woodwork cause all of a sudden they can win games...regardless of how poor generals they are.

Forget it Blackmoor, you're arguing to a bunch of blind people that the sky is blue.

JD21290 wrote:

And for gods sake charge a wounded ork squad from time to time, you'd be amazed what happens.

i dont mean this in an offensive way, but piss off
fire warriors are not built for fighting orks XD
have enough trouble killing gretchin in CC lol

Sorry, that was a general statement where tau are the exception. A good tau player would move up and double tap close enough so that the ork squad would have to charge them next turn while focusing the rest of his force on the next unit in line. That will help create some space for you to manuever in while only giving up a single firewarrior unit in exchange for major damage to 2 maxed ork units in 2 turns. The charge statement was mostly for meq's who think it's a good idea to double tap and let the orks get the charge.

@Deadshane

They won some GT's. They were also chosen by quite a few very good players one of which has won multiple awards at GT's before this codex and with the old one. That proves the capability of the general, not the dex.

The sheer number of orks being played has sky rocketed. I remember for years being 1 of 2 ork players out of 90.

A total inability of tournement people who have played the same game for so long that they don't know another way to play to adapt to a new meta game and yeah their tough. But i haven't lost against them since the codex came out. Now is the codex good, yes. Is it ridiculous and over powered, no.

hulk, i know how to use tau mate, i was simply saying that charging in with FW's would get me nowhere lol.


allthough, all this "overpowered" junk is getting irritating, so i may lay my orks to rest for now and go back to nids or keep playing tau for a while until a new codex comes out and thats the new "overpowered" army.

this seems somewhat familiar when the marines dex came out.

are orks really the easiest army to win with... Yes. Excluding nob bikers are orks the best army... No. This is where the metagame approach to playing in tournaments is killing people. Orks are not that great in close combat. If your orky opponents are getting a ton of cover saves why aren't you shooting the closest units not in cover? I have lost one game against orks since the new codex was released and I don't design my lists to specifically beat orks. I use their disadvantages against them and take their strengths away from them. If you come to the table and feel intimidated when you see an ork army you have probably already lost before the first dice roll. Yes they are very good but they can be beaten.

G

Hulksmash wrote:@Deadshane

They won some GT's. They were also chosen by quite a few very good players one of which has won multiple awards at GT's before this codex and with the old one. That proves the capability of the general, not the dex.

Good generals also choose the army best suited to win a GT.

Hulksmash wrote:
They won some GT's. They were also chosen by quite a few very good players one of which has won multiple awards at GT's before this codex and with the old one. That proves the capability of the general, not the dex.

Like Blackmoor already stated, the ork dex makes bad players decent, and great players unstoppable. Blackmoor and I both know the guy who won the Adepticon invitational AND Baltimore last year. He's been stymied for years and while he's a good player he accomplished not only the massive feat of beating all the best at the invitational, but blasting baltimore out of the water...THEN winning the circuit for the year after getting top marks in Vegas as well. Neal is a really good player, and I've seen him in tournement now for 3 years running, multiple tournements a year, he's never even come close to this sort of success. NOT EVEN CLOSE, until 5e and the new codex...now all of a sudden he's the best player in the united states....EASILY?

It does indeed prove the the dex has a huge advantage. Not to take anything away from Neal, he's a great player, but great players become unstoppable with the Orks. It takes good players to make the best lists

The sheer number of orks being played has sky rocketed. I remember for years being 1 of 2 ork players out of 90.

big surprise there with all the tournements being slaughtered by orks. Heres a little news flash....People like to win. The ork codex not only makes it easy, but also has a great line of minis. Gee, I wonder why so many new ork players has skyrocketed.

A total inability of tournement people who have played the same game for so long that they don't know another way to play to adapt to a new meta game and yeah their tough. But i haven't lost against them since the codex came out. Now is the codex good, yes. Is it ridiculous and over powered, no.

maybe in your little pond, try playing with a larger base of players. How many top ork major tournement players have you beaten? My bet is "not many".

People tend to think that their local gamestore and local RTT's is somehow representative of the state of the game across the country. They're wrong. I have CLOSE constant correspondance with the guys that won all the trophies last year with orks at Adepticon, Vegas, AND Baltimore. Beleive me (and blackmoor) its no accident that orks are taking all of the Trophies....and for sure they're great generals....they know to take machine guns when everyone else are armed with flintlocks. Great Generals would know to do that.

TONS of new ork players crawling out of the woodwork cause all of a sudden they can win games...regardless of how poor generals they are.(Deadshane wrote that, still haven't got the hang of quotes.)

I've being playing Speed freeks for over two years now and have learned the hard way how to win with them. (especially when the were crap).

My present 1500pt list has no special characters, no lootas and no killkannon battlewagons. It does however have nob bikers (4 Of them!), hardly overkill, 5 meganobs in a trukk (ok they are a bit sick), a battlewagon with a zzap gun, kff, megaboss, 4 buggies and a massive 30 boys (in trukks mind you). Hardly a broken list, yet I still managed to dominate every game i played at a local tourny (we usually have pretty tough competition).

This was mainly due to my experiance as an ork player, and had little to do with using overpowered units.

So in short I think that to really crush with orks (or any army for that matter) certainly takes some good tactics and is not soley based on how good your codex. Even though playing horde orks isn't too difficult a smart general can defeat it without going totally anti-horde.

Hope that helps a bit.

Mookie.

Mookie Blaylock wrote:
I've being playing Speed freeks for over two years now and have learned the hard way how to win with them. (especially when the were crap).

My present 1500pt list has no special characters, no lootas and no killkannon battlewagons. It does however have nob bikers (4 Of them!), hardly overkill, 5 meganobs in a trukk (ok they are a bit sick), a battlewagon with a zzap gun, kff, megaboss, 4 buggies and a massive 30 boys (in trukks mind you). Hardly a broken list, yet I still managed to dominate every game i played at a local tourny (we usually have pretty tough competition).

Once again, local tourneys are not representative of the state of 40k nation/worldwide.

However, your point does serve the overpowered side...you once had to learn the hard way of how to win, but now you dominate....hmmmmm.

Even though playing horde orks isn't too difficult a smart general can defeat it without going totally anti-horde.

and what evidence to you have to support this conclusion? I'm of the opinion that.....

....not against an equally smart general they wont.

Shane are you saying that in general if two players of equal skill match up then the one playing orks should win?just curIous.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Shane are you saying that in general if two players of equal skill match up then the one playing orks should win?just curIous.

G

There are of course other factors, but in a nutshell...yes.

All you've said and proven Shane is that a player who played orks for years with a codex made for 2 full editions (and at the beginning of that at that) got way better when his codex was brought in line. I also played Orks for 8 years before the new dex and managed to win about 75% of my games. Now I have beaten every Ork player i've come up against since I shelved mine to avoid the whiners who will cripple your soft scores for running them.

I generally make it to 2-3 GT's a year and play in RTT's all up and down the California coast and in nevada when i get enough warning. I like how your answer to my experience is to state i haven't played anyone "good" with orks and so don't realize how great they are.

You do realize there are a lot people out there that are genuinely amazing at this game don't;

a) have the money to travel across the country to play in little toy soldier tournements

b) don't have the availability to take off 3 weekends in the fall (that's what hurt my attendance at GT's this year since all 3 were within 3 months of each other)

c) couldn't play in vegas since they sold out ridiculously fast for 40k

I realize to you guys orks are the end of 40k but you still haven't rebutted the lack of transition in 40k by most players to more shots and templates. You ignore that the guy that won all the tournement last year has played orks for years! An out of date and seriously underpowered list for almost a decade (it sucked when it came out) and that his familiarity and ability to play orks is entirely the codex. You suggest the idea that people, instead of creating new tactics, should just shake hands when they go up against an ork player with the same record as them and say good game and go for a beer instead of playing.

You did see that Orks didn't even place in first Indy GT this year right? I'm just curious as to your reason for that since there were ork players there and therefore they should have won, hands down. What last year showed me is Orks are devestating in capable hands. Outside of those players (the 2-3 guys that rocked the non-indy circuit) how high did orks really finish?

Hulksmash wrote:All you've said and proven Shane is that a player who played orks for years with a codex made for 2 full editions (and at the beginning of that at that) got way better when his codex was brought in line. I also played Orks for 8 years before the new dex and managed to win about 75% of my games. Now I have beaten every Ork player i've come up against since I shelved mine to avoid the whiners who will cripple your soft scores for running them.

Umm, the guy that won the Invitational, baltimore, and the circuit never EVER picked up orks before last year. Thanx for bringing up that point though, I didnt even think about that little tidbit before you said anything. Kind of makes orks look easy to win with huh?

I generally make it to 2-3 GT's a year and play in RTT's all up and down the California coast and in nevada when i get enough warning. I like how your answer to my experience is to state i haven't played anyone "good" with orks and so don't realize how great they are.

Fine, what is your usual placement at GT's? Top 10%? Top 10 guys? Top 5? If its not up there then no, you dont realise how great these guys are behind their armies. (This isnt a slight as everyone plays at different skill levels and levels of competetiveness. Please dont take it the wrong way.)

You do realize there are a lot people out there that are genuinely amazing at this game don't;

a) have the money to travel across the country to play in little toy soldier tournements

b) don't have the availability to take off 3 weekends in the fall (that's what hurt my attendance at GT's this year since all 3 were within 3 months of each other)

c) couldn't play in vegas since they sold out ridiculously fast for 40k

This arguement doenst mean a thing. We cannot compare the few people that dont show up. (and its not that hard to make it to a GT if you really want to) What we CAN come to a conclusion with are the 100's of players that DO show up and compare those results. THOSE results show that Orks are dominating....with ease.

You did see that Orks didn't even place in first Indy GT this year right? I'm just curious as to your reason for that since there were ork players there and therefore they should have won, hands down. What last year showed me is Orks are devestating in capable hands. Outside of those players (the 2-3 guys that rocked the non-indy circuit) how high did orks really finish?

So they didnt win at some Indy Tournement. What the ork Codex DID do was dominate all the BIG GT events this past year. Thats enough to back up what blackmoor and I are saying. "They didnt win at Necro." isnt an arguement to the contrary...anything couldve happened, but whatever, the point being is that the larger tournements were taken by the orks....easily.

I think some people are over (and under) estimating the effectiveness of heavy bolters and flamers. It has been said repeatedly in this thread that heavy bolters and flamers are the answer to Orks, but they are not too effective against MEQ. I play Sisters. My list involves heavy bolters, flamers and the odd meltagun. Despite the apparent ineffectiveness of those weapons, my army chews up MEQ and spits them out after four turns, but gets tabled by Orks just as quickly. A Retrubutor Squad with four heavy bolters can expect to kill three Orks a turn, assuming a 4+ cover save (which is almost a given now). If I have 100 Orks in front of me, even if I get five turns of shooting from that squad, I still need to take care of the other 85 Orks with the remaining 4/5 of my list. Flamers, sure, cause a lot of damage, but you have to get close to use them. Real close, and Orks have not invented showers! If you are playing the likes of Sisters or Tau, and you are close enough to use a flamer, you are either killing the last scraps after using everything else in your list, or have already lost. Sure, you can charge them to deny the Furious Charge... and still lose the combat horridly! This small fact does not mean that Orks are automatically over-powered, but it takes more than the simple `heavy bolters and flamers' ``tactic'' being bandied around in this thread. Some of the ``evidence'' that Orks are not powerful is questionable too. Orks struggle to kill a Monolith, therefore they are not over-powered. Did you even read your own words before you posted them? Every army in the game struggles to kill a Monolith. With a S10 PK Warboss, they have as good a chance as most other armies. Sure, a Broadside or three could potentially make short work of a Monolith, but last I checked Orks were not the only army lacking in 72'' S10 Twin-Linked firepower.

I am no Blackmoor. I cannot claim to be half the general he is, but I have both halves of a brain and can see the Nob-sized holes in most of the arguments people are presenting here. The release of the New Orks forces a very definite change to the metagame, as does fifth edition. Gone are the days where las/plas and Nidzilla can hope to dominate the table. I seriously doubt anyone would argue otherwise. I also, however, seriously doubt that the vast majority of players are too stupid to realise that and only the handful of people here claiming that Orks are just as easy to beat as Tau or Necron (given their desperately weak Monolith) have seen the light. Orks have been around long enough for every player to have had their backsides handed back to them once or twice. Even a moron would realise that lascannon was less than optimal against that squad of Shootaboyz. The other options are not that much better. Sure, you could tool up with heavy bolters and maybe a couple of whirlwinds --- after all, everyone not playing Orks plays Space Marines! --- and lay down a lot of hurt on the Orks. Unfortunately, your opponent decided to play an all Battlewagon list and your lack of anti-vehicle screwed you over. This is assuming they were not also playing Space Marines with all heavy bolters and whirlwinds. Or Mech-Eldar. Or one of the other multitude of lists that this would be ineffective against. What are the chances, when you are clearly only going to face hoard Orks!

Sarcasm aside, it is extremely difficult to put together a list that can work against MEQ, mech, hoard and every other list out there. Actually, scratch that. Hoards of Guardsmen or Nids are not so difficult to handle in a balanced list. Hoards of Orks are completely different to these guys. Crunch the numbers on Guardsmen vs Termagaunts vs Shootaboyz and you can see that very clearly! Orks change the metagame, but can the metagame adapt to them? Some armies will really struggle to handle Orks without crippling themselves against every other list around; most armies would have a lot of difficulty, even in the hands of an excellent general.

It's more the army list than the general a lot of times in the big events. Last year Moocher was the undisputed king with Chaos.

G

Another post requesting a little perspective.

These players who are allegedly only winning because they play Orks....where did they place in the oh-so-important GT results before they went Green?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Another post requesting a little perspective.

These players who are allegedly only winning because they play Orks....where did they place in the oh-so-important GT results before they went Green?

Neal has been a serious competitor for some time. His specialty used to be dark eldar and he's won 1 overall GT and a couple of close passes at best general with them in the past. He was the big winner this year at adepticon and Baltimore. He's specifically said he picked the Ork codex because its easy to win with (his words). He's having a hard time putting it down because of its strength.

Marc Parker won with orks in Vegas. He is no stranger to winning tournements. However, he himself admits to Bikernobs being effectively broken and he's also pretty much touting the Ork Codex as the strongest codex out right now. So while he can win tournement without Orks, he's recognised them for what they are. A higher power level than other codeii right now.

Two good players, one who's always in the top bracket, and another who's struggled for several years to place. Both admit to ork power levels being far and above other codexes, but as competetive players, they choose the strongest codex and make the best list they can in order to maximise their battle points. That is BOTH of their philosophy toward winning in tournement. Hopefully, this gives them the edge they need in order to get top marks....and it has.

double post

Mookie Blaylock wrote:

I've being playing Speed freeks for over two years now and have learned the hard way how to win with them. (especially when the were crap).

My present 1500pt list has no special characters, no lootas and no killkannon battlewagons. It does however have nob bikers (4 Of them!), hardly overkill, 5 meganobs in a trukk (ok they are a bit sick), a battlewagon with a zzap gun, kff, megaboss, 4 buggies and a massive 30 boys (in trukks mind you). Hardly a broken list, yet I still managed to dominate every game i played at a local tourny (we usually have pretty tough competition).

Deadshane wrote:

Once again, local tourneys are not representative of the state of 40k nation/worldwide.

However, your point does serve the overpowered side...you once had to learn the hard way of how to win, but now you dominate....hmmmmm.

What I'm saying is that I win not because I use cheesey units but because I've actually learned how to by playing with the same army for 2 years. For the majority of these games I played with the old extremely out-dated codex and still won!

I will admit that it's easier to win with orks now because we have a codex that doesn't suck. But it is far from the only reason that orks are kicking ass now. Its mainly due to the fact that people still expect orks to suck like they did for the last 2 editions and are then shocked when they get beaten.

I wrote:

Even though playing horde orks isn't too difficult a smart general can defeat it without going totally anti-horde.

Deadshane wrote:

and what evidence to you have to support this conclusion? I'm of the opinion that.....

....not against an equally smart general they wont.

In the last tourny I played in the top two spots were held by an ork battlewagon army of death, and a sisters army similer to blackmoors. Both were very capable generals and had crushed all opposition before they faced each other. When they eventually faced off the sisters absolutly massacered the orks, not a single thing left by the end. So if you're a competant general you can beat orks even without tooling up just to face them.

Still haven't figured out quotes yet so I apologise.

Mookie.

Orks are pretty good.

Its probibly because people have been sucking the green egg for so long, that "The New 5th Edition" line of codex's begged for an upgrade.

As for prospective, people played alot during the second edition, with the wacky platoon sized games, then they moved up to Third edition with overacheving nonshooting orks, but evil hand to hand, to now, with a balence of BOTH hand to hand and shooting. The weapons are good, not excellent, but good enough to do some damage finally.

Remember, too. Its the "New toy in the sandbox." all the kool kidz will play it to death, until the new codex comes out. Then it will be tossed aside and forgotten like all the other ones.

Orks required a different approach to the oldschool throw mobs after mobs and overload an opponent. Now you can halfway manuver your army around the board, don't have alot of distraction with equipment that has odd results, and your army actually works together, istead of killing itself with stupid results or bad rolls.
The 5th Edition streamlined alot of the metagame. The codex's are actually starting to come on line and not so much as be a hinderance, or some sort of trump card, and are being complimentary to the game.

The Ork codex is probibly one of the best ones so far in the new line of Codex's. It's not perfect, but it is a really fun army to play with lots of different options and fun things to try.

They arn't the best, but that doesn't matter. They have options and the army is fun.

Other horde armies are not like ork hordes. Others have said it, I say it again. I've always tried to make a Tyranid horde army work, but competitively, there wasn't a way around nidzillas in 4th and I don't think it has changed in 5th if it hasn't become worse. I normally don't compare units crosscodexial, but what's better than the basic shootaboy point for point? Or a Loota for ranged firepower?
Another problem is that everything will die if you throw enoguh dice at it. And the good ork units use this principle (or why are flash gits not used?).

I guess my uncompetitive eldar army had a chance against an uncompetitive ork army in my area, but that is not the point of the discussion here.

Greets
Schepp himself

Orkeosaurus wrote:
People expect to be able to build lists that emphasize killing tanks and MEQs, and still beat hordes, because up until the ork codex all the horde armies were low tier.

Now people go up against a horde army that's as powerful as the big mech and MEQ armies, and they don't understand why they have so much trouble beating them.

I never, ever had trouble with a MEQ army, even with a balanced list. I never expected to be able to be able to build one way and still beat up hordes. That's why I switched my list around.

In fact I know why people have trouble beating them: because Orks are undercosted. Yeah I'll be okay with Orks when Guardsmen are 4 points and Leman Russes fire turbolasers and Ogryns are as strong as Wraithlords.

But this is only because I'll be fighting fire with fire.

I do agree that hordes sucked, but the solution was like taking a machine gun to a paintball gun match. The solution was over the top.

Yes, because 6 point models with Str 4, WS4, and T4 with 4 attacks, and that are practically fearless are REALLY balanced.

I should at least be able to squeak out a win if a use a balanced list. In all honesty, I'm actually kind of afraid of what will happen when I go against my friend's Dark Angels with my current Eldar army.

I don't care that hordes are good now. It's perfectly fine as it makes sense. Orks and hordes are like peanut butter and jelly. I don't care about that.

But they're underpriced, and that's my problem.

First of all, yeah you're really giving this an unbiased viewpoint by quoting the ork statline on the charge without mentioning it.

Second, I don't see why you think that you should be able to "squeek out a win" every time you play; are you just that great of a tactician or something? Maybe feeling entiled to a win is part of your problem?

Third, the problem is that "balanced" lists are not balanced correctly. "Balanced" has meant anti-MEQ, ant-armor, and anti-monstrous creature with some anti-horde occasionally thrown in as an afterthought for quite a while now. It's not like that anymore. Change your perception of what constitutes a "balanced list," so that it includes more anti-horde than it did before.

And yes, 180 boys are going to be hard for a balanced list to kill, but it's no different from 8 monstrous creatures, or 5 land raiders, or any other army that spams something to the breaking point. And it's not the cause of the problem any more than the other spamming lists are.

Hahaha, this is yet another reason why one should not be debating if they've only had 3 hours' sleep. My bad, I totally forgot FC.

No I don't believe that I have some pre-ordained right to win every single battle that I ever play in. I understand that losing is all part of figuring everything out.

But even when I've switched around my lists and my tactics, and I still lose? What the heck is that?

As for your third point, my army is balanced pretty well, with anti-Horde, and anti-MEQ. I don't play against Monstrous Creatures at all (in fact I'm the only one with them.) Same with Vehicles, they're pretty rare. Luckily there's no Land Raiders.

Okay, so my IG army is pretty balanced. (My Eldar is not, they are very, very anti-horde.) My friend says that I chose all of the right targets in both games where I lost to Orks. I made the right tactical decisions, all he did was move his guys forward and he won.

It's the first horde army to have a codex for this edition. Of course it changed the meta game. I'm not saying it's not a strong codex. I just don't think it's the ball buster you guys do.

Oh and as for my record at GT's when i play 40k (took a break to play fantasy for a year) i generally finish in the top 10%. I generally go 4-1 or at worst 3-1-1. I haven't lost more than one game in any GT i've ever attended for 40k (even back when there were 6 games). And i didn't take offense at that. It's an excellent question.

My question is why do you discount the first indy GT of the year? they are on the circuit. They count toward the results for the year. What you were saying is orks is an easier win and I pointed out that at the first GT this year they didn't dominate. We'll see how the second indy GT goes this weekend and i'll post the results (even if it slaps egg in my face ).

I thought i had read that neil had played orks before this codex i apologize for having my information incorrect and yes that does lend credence to your arguement except that he primairely plays the other most outdated codex that needs excellent strategy just to compete.

And I agree w/Elric that it's not as simple as using flamers and heavy bolters. Flamers, mobility, other template weapons (ie rocket launchers, plasma cannons), ordinance of all flavors, lots of shots, and assault units are all ways to deal with orks. Now you'll need more than just one or two of these to beat orks but these are things that are useful against all othe opponents too so your list should be build around them anyway. Just some thoughts.

I'll just weigh in on Blackmoor/Deadshane's side on this. I'm a fairly competative player (#12 on circuit last year) and they more or less said what I think. Orks are the strongest codex, full stop.

Blackmoor played the eldar back in their heyday with much glee. He had Eldrad, the Avatar, Harlequins and tooled Falcons. I am a bit surprised to see my buddy vex the luck of the green tide. Maybe IG will be the answer to the horde.

Already orks did not take the first GT for this year. I doubt they will win more than half of this year's events to be honest.

G

It's all how you play them and how you setup.


A split firebase is incredibly effective against orks. Especially considering how much damage it can do to them.

Outflanking and Deepstriking units are perfect to get and deal with Shootas.

Bikes Tear ork boy squads to pieces.

You don't have to play a marine army geared specifically to defeat orks. You just have to play smart.


I've never been beaten by a ork player period. Even with the nasty 20 nob biker squad.

It's not that their bad generals its that I know what to sacrifice.

edit:

Thats not to say its not a incredibly powerful army just out of the gate.

If orks are so overly powerful, why doesn't every single competitive person take them to the tournaments?

Tazok wrote:If orks are so overly powerful, why doesn't every single competitive person take them to the tournaments?

I hate orks. From the gates of hell I spit at them!

I try not to play the most powerful army. I could hit the "Easy Button" and play Iron Warriors in 3rd and 4th edition, Chaos with 2 lashes and 9 Oblits, or Orks. I choose not to.

I will also say that there are different kinds of ork players. There are those players that take everything in the codex and throw them together in a haphazard manner that playing whatever units they like or have access to, and those that build a list with units that work well together and compliment each other. The second type is hard to beat.

Also there are armies that work better against orks then others. Blood Angels, Chaos, Demons and Witchhunters have a better chance to beat the orks then other armies.

I play BA so that is probably why I am non-plussed by them.

G

Wow, this is a hell of a thread.

I have to say I almost wish I didn't basically give up 40k when 5th ed Hit, since my favorite army is now "top tier"; but for now WHFB is my game.

Seriously though, I find it laughable that somehow Ork's aren't universally seen as one of the Top Tier armies in 5th.

Lootas & Shoota spam in 4th ed was fantastic and everything I played against with that list died; 5th ed only ended up making it much worse since you can bring your own cover saves with you.

Granted, I would think that the list should have some predators in 5th Ed, I theory-hammer that a Tau force with Railheads Submunition + Markerlights to remove cover saves would seriously put the Kabosh on an Ork Horde like that; but Tau suck so bad against all the other armies in 5th that it seems like they're a non-factor now.

Against most other lists Horde Orks are ridiculously good and have answer to just about anything, although I can see some armies giving them some problems (Lash Chaos), but still anything that has a chance at shooting them down can be adapted to via Snikrot since those armies tend to be very squishy against Orks in H2H.

And then finally there's the combination of wonderfully inept GW Rules Writing in 5th that gave birth to Nob Bikers, who used that stupidity to gain slow Strength and be the Mech Eldar of 5th ed.

Now we have a unit that has very few weaknesses that GW will have to release some kind of unit/ability that will negate them in a future army book, or they will be the stupid "push forward, charge, win" army.

Still, I kind of laugh at all the complaints against Orks in 40k v5. If you guys think that 40k is imbalanced you should take a look at WHFB right now.

Maybe this is a better question. How do lists tailored with a greater emphasis on fighting orks do against other armies? If the IG codex is similarly powerful the dreaded metagame may begin to shift to a non-MEQ standard.

Maybe they have it all planned out as a complex game of rock paper scissors. Orks beat marines, guard beat orks, and marines beat guard. Making it all fair again, heres dreaming.

Frazzled wrote: If the IG codex is similarly powerful the dreaded metagame may begin to shift to a non-MEQ standard.

Let's only hope. Then we'll have properly fluffy games of 40K.

Blackmoor wrote:
I try not to play the most powerful army. I could hit the "Easy Button" and play Iron Warriors in 3rd and 4th edition, Chaos with 2 lashes and 9 Oblits, or Orks. I choose not to.

Looking at your old posts I see you were going to take 1 Lash and 9 Obliterators to Adepticon 08. But then you decided to just go with Eldard, Avatar, Harlies and only 2 super-Falcons. Good job holding back and not hitting the Easy Button. I assume you used to play IW with only 3 pie-plates and 6 Oblits?

Threads like this and questions like that from the 'Frazz make me want to play 40k again, you're bad people.

But I have to ask the same question as The 'Frazz as a former 40k player looking in on the current state of 5th, with only a few play test games of 5th under my belt.

I would think the answer is very obvious: Tooling to fight the Horde should have little impact on fighting against MEQ's in 5th.

Here are my assertions*:

#1) Cover saves all over the stupid place means that AP2/AP3 weapons aren't going to be nearly as effective against MEQ's.

#2) Single Shot/long range anti-tank also went out of style in 5th Ed thanks to Cover and the new Vehicle rules, with Melta's & CC being the best way to Slag any kind of Armor skimmer or not.

#3) Given the previous points, why isn't it best to go the Godzilla route and just kill stuff in the game just by making them roll as many saves as possible? 3+ Saves sure as hell don't hold up all that well to lots of dice rolls. If they did then Godzilla wouldn't ever have worked nearly as well as it did back in the day.

#4) Assaults can clear out MEQ's quickly, especially from HQ units. The only hard part is ensuring you get the assaults or that you don't die from the counter attack since 5th has made it such that you can't guarantee safety from shooting in assault anymore, or use terrain as effectively to "pounce" and get charges without taking any fire.

This is obviously the direction GW has pushed 40k in 5th edition with the introduction of Cover, and the whole "use lots of shots" mantra has been pushed by GW Developers since the Nid Codex, but in a more obvious way since the Eldar codex came out and removed the old AP2 style with tons of shots. The Orks again prove they just want players to roll tons of dice and kill those Marines, so they don't have to hear complaints about "this army has too much AP2/AP3, NERF THEM!".

* I am going to out and out say that I have very little 40k 5th Experience compared to other players here like Blackmoore, Shane, GBF, etc. I'm more than willing to admit being wrong on these assumptions, but from my experience I see them as true in the current environment.

Orks rule all, accept it and eat it!

lord_blackfang wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:
I try not to play the most powerful army. I could hit the "Easy Button" and play Iron Warriors in 3rd and 4th edition, Chaos with 2 lashes and 9 Oblits, or Orks. I choose not to.

Looking at your old posts I see you were going to take 1 Lash and 9 Obliterators to Adepticon 08. But then you decided to just go with Eldard, Avatar, Harlies and only 2 super-Falcons. Good job holding back and not hitting the Easy Button. I assume you used to play IW with only 3 pie-plates and 6 Oblits?

Sour grapes said the red fox.

G

lord_blackfang wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:
I try not to play the most powerful army. I could hit the "Easy Button" and play Iron Warriors in 3rd and 4th edition, Chaos with 2 lashes and 9 Oblits, or Orks. I choose not to.

Looking at your old posts I see you were going to take 1 Lash and 9 Obliterators to Adepticon 08. But then you decided to just go with Eldard, Avatar, Harlies and only 2 super-Falcons. Good job holding back and not hitting the Easy Button. I assume you used to play IW with only 3 pie-plates and 6 Oblits?

So he took a tournament army to one of the hardest events in the year. That's a given for any good tourney player.

Of course, he's also the guy who took Sisters w/ Inquisitors, & Storm Troopers to the LVGT. That proves his point about actually taking non established power builds to a large event.

SoMe people were proclaiMing WH as top tier when 5e first rolled out.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:SoMe people were proclaiMing WH as top tier when 5e first rolled out.

G

I don't think they were thinking about a list with Storm Troopers, Chimeras, and Inquisitors when they were saying that.

Most of that talk was about the fact that Sisters with Flamers already killed MEQ's with divine guidance, and the fact that they have a hugely undercosted troop choice that was pretty good at sticking around for a long while.

I'm in the camp that thinks orks got too easy to win with, which is unfortunate as they're my favourite army to model, paint and collect. I really haven't played with my boyz since the adepticon gladiator last year.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:
I try not to play the most powerful army. I could hit the "Easy Button" and play Iron Warriors in 3rd and 4th edition, Chaos with 2 lashes and 9 Oblits, or Orks. I choose not to.

Looking at your old posts I see you were going to take 1 Lash and 9 Obliterators to Adepticon 08. But then you decided to just go with Eldard, Avatar, Harlies and only 2 super-Falcons. Good job holding back and not hitting the Easy Button. I assume you used to play IW with only 3 pie-plates and 6 Oblits?

That army came about because everyone was playing a cookie-cutter eldar armies, and they were saying how guardians sucked. I was trying to make an army around them and try to figure out a way to make them work. Also you pointed out about 900 points, the other 850 was not that good. I took 6 Harlequins after I could not get banshees to work for me, and I took 2 falcons after I found out that 1 falcon and 2 Fire Prisms could not beat Godzilla Nids. I guess I should have only taken Shining Spears, but I could have made that army a lot harder than I did.

And just as an FYI, am am playing Eldar this year.

why didn't Orks win at the first event of the year, conquest ?

1. the games were only 2 hours long for 1850
2. the nob biker list met my 50 khorne berzerker and 2 lash sorcerer list and got destroyed.
3. the other ork lists attending were not that good.

if a Parker or a Mike munchkin or even a sparks, well not sparks, showed up they would have probally won.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Still, I kind of laugh at all the complaints against Orks in 40k v5. If you guys think that 40k is imbalanced you should take a look at WHFB right now.

Ain't that the truth. I don't play WFB much, but I've seen some of the tournament results, and they're fairly appalling. It really goes to show you how a few overpowered army books can really mess up a game system. Who could have predicted two years ago that 40K would end up being the better game in terms of balance?

Anyway, back on topic. IMO, Orks are and will likely stay really good, although they've probably hit their high water mark already. I think CSMs -- although mostly cookie-cutter -- are also quite good. IG could also change things, although I have a gut feeling they'll end up underwhelming. Tyranids may see a new codex within a year, if some of the rumors are true, and that could also change the metagame. I'd look for Tyranid hordes to come back in a major way, since they'll almost certainly nerf Nidzilla and boost all the horde-related elements. You know it's going to be the usual massive pendulum swing.

I give Phil Kelly more of a pass than some regarding the Ork book. If a codex had to be overpowered, Orks are a better choice than some lame-a$$ flavor of SM. At least it shakes up the metagame. Also, I think the Ork codex is just plain more fun than most. I see so much more imagination and more possibilities there than with the CSM or Daemon books. I like the Daemon fluff...but when I get to the army list, it puts me to sleep, even if the builds are quite strong.

Frazzled wrote:Maybe this is a better question. How do lists tailored with a greater emphasis on fighting orks do against other armies? If the IG codex is similarly powerful the dreaded metagame may begin to shift to a non-MEQ standard.

Depends on the list really. The problem is to effectively counter orks, you need to be two things in 5th ed. Anti-Horde, and mobile.

Properly constructed Ork armies are simply PITA to defeat. I played a game this past weekend where I killed 180+ orks with my daemons, and still lost.

skkipper wrote:why didn't Orks win at the first event of the year, conquest ?

1. the games were only 2 hours long for 1850
2. the nob biker list met my 50 khorne berzerker and 2 lash sorcerer list and got destroyed.
3. the other ork lists attending were not that good.

if a Parker or a Mike munchkin or even a sparks, well not sparks, showed up they would have probally won.

So here is a case of it being the player not the book then right? Which doesn't make the book broken just good. I thought the point of what a lot of the guys here were saying was that orks are an I win button. As for 2 hour games i field 100 gaunts in my armies and finish most games in under 2 hours. The speed of 40k has gone way up since the new edition. I personally think that 2 hours is fine for anything under 2k.

All of it doesn't change the fact that Orks didn't place at the first GT. I agree w/GBF (god help me) that the Orks will probably only take about 1/2 the events this year and thats only if the good players run them.

Let's be totally clear though: If Orks take half the events this year then they "are really that good". When 1 out of 11 (are there 11 dexes, more, less? Not sure) codexes wins 5 out of 10 tournaments its clearly dominant, (unless the others are all won by 1 other dex).

My personal theory is that the current top tier is Orks, Daemons, CSM. Orks are the strongest of the three, though. I'd be surprised if any list that isn't one of those 3 wins more than one big event this year.

that was 2 hours from table asignment. most people where still moving when the go button was hit.
250 models doing something that takes 5 seconds each turn
5 turns + setup= 6 turns

6*250*5= equal 2 hours and 5 minutes. the 2 hours was too short.

it does show that any player cannot bring orks and win it all.

BigToof wrote:While I hear a lot of wailing and nashing of teeth, nobody seems to be able to point to the one thing that over the top. Depending on who's making the comments, it's the Nob Bikers, or the Lootas, or the masses of ork boyz, or whatever is the local beat stick. There's a lot of cool stuff in the ork list which makes it very nice, but it can also also be beaten. There is nothing which is so uber that there isn't a counter for every army in the game. I honestly think it's just the usual new codex bitching.

It's not any particular unit. Its the advent of 5th edition and the cover saves that Orks now get. This gave Orks a huge boost to a codex balanced for 4th edition. The real fix is to slightly increase the points values to more accurately reflect the orks capabilities.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there ChaosDave. The Ork codex was in no way balanced whatsoever in 4th Edition.

It was a beefcake then and it's a beefcake now.

5th Edition made it better since you went from:

Shooty Horde
4th Edition: 5+ Cover save for all your boyz provided by an Untargetable Big Mek not attached to any squad.

5th Edition: 4+ Cover save provided by other units, who themselves will probably only have a 5+ Cover save thanks to a KFF, though this can vary based on lists.

Nob Bikers
4th Edition: Nob Bikers were an expensive point sink.

5th Edition: Nob Bikers became a ridiculous unit where you can take 10 wounds and not lose a single model, and the new rules ensure that all Nobz will be engaged even when assaulted, ensuring Klaws will get their jobs done.

ChaosDave wrote:

BigToof wrote:While I hear a lot of wailing and nashing of teeth, nobody seems to be able to point to the one thing that over the top. Depending on who's making the comments, it's the Nob Bikers, or the Lootas, or the masses of ork boyz, or whatever is the local beat stick. There's a lot of cool stuff in the ork list which makes it very nice, but it can also also be beaten. There is nothing which is so uber that there isn't a counter for every army in the game. I honestly think it's just the usual new codex bitching.

It's not any particular unit. Its the advent of 5th edition and the cover saves that Orks now get. This gave Orks a huge boost to a codex balanced for 4th edition. The real fix is to slightly increase the points values to more accurately reflect the orks capabilities.

Or down play the cover saves.

Or, *gasp* flank all the units that people are using to give cover saves to their orks. I've had this happen with a number of good players, it's really not that hard. If the ork player wants to come across the board at you, run around him, and shoot the sh!t outta his boyz. ALL orks die really quickly once you start double tapping small arms into them. Which is the reason why "I can't design a anti MEQ AND a anti-Horde" thing is BS. Almost all armies feature basic riflemen of some sort as troops.

Orks may be a bit undercosted, I can see arguments for that.

BigToof wrote:

ChaosDave wrote:

BigToof wrote:While I hear a lot of wailing and nashing of teeth, nobody seems to be able to point to the one thing that over the top. Depending on who's making the comments, it's the Nob Bikers, or the Lootas, or the masses of ork boyz, or whatever is the local beat stick. There's a lot of cool stuff in the ork list which makes it very nice, but it can also also be beaten. There is nothing which is so uber that there isn't a counter for every army in the game. I honestly think it's just the usual new codex bitching.

It's not any particular unit. Its the advent of 5th edition and the cover saves that Orks now get. This gave Orks a huge boost to a codex balanced for 4th edition. The real fix is to slightly increase the points values to more accurately reflect the orks capabilities.

Or down play the cover saves.

Or, *gasp* flank all the units that people are using to give cover saves to their orks. I've had this happen with a number of good players, it's really not that hard. If the ork player wants to come across the board at you, run around him, and shoot the sh!t outta his boyz. ALL orks die really quickly once you start double tapping small arms into them. Which is the reason why "I can't design a anti MEQ AND a anti-Horde" thing is BS. Almost all armies feature basic riflemen of some sort as troops.

Orks may be a bit undercosted, I can see arguments for that.

10 Space Marines double tapping Bolters into a unit of Orks will yield:

20 Shots
13.33 Hits
6.66 Wounds

If the Ork player is smart and has KFF Big Mek (or two) providing "always on" cover saves for the Boyz who are up front, it should cover their boyz should they be "flanked" where they don't have other Boyz giving them a 4+ cover save.

So if he has that, you kill 4.44 orks, or lets say 5.

Still, you've moved up and at best (assuming no KFF, which is generous) you'll kill around 7 Orks.

In a Mob of Shootas, you will then get shot in return, charged, and killed.

The problem with "horde Orks" is that there are usually 3-4 big Mobs of 30. It's very hard to kill one unit of 30, let alone 4 of them, and deal with the Lootas + other support.

5th Edition: Nob Bikers became a ridiculous unit where you can take 10 wounds and not lose a single model, and the new rules ensure that all Nobz will be engaged even when assaulted, ensuring Klaws will get their jobs done.

great, apart from every army has atleast 1 unit to kill them with ease, klaws arent that good, since they strike last you have a chance to cut the numbers down before they get to fight back.

against biker nob units ive started to use a unit of 8 bloodcrushers with skulltaker on jugger.
around the same cost as the nob bikers, and easily beats them, without taking much damage in return.

JD21290 wrote:

5th Edition: Nob Bikers became a ridiculous unit where you can take 10 wounds and not lose a single model, and the new rules ensure that all Nobz will be engaged even when assaulted, ensuring Klaws will get their jobs done.

great, apart from every army has atleast 1 unit to kill them with ease, klaws arent that good, since they strike last you have a chance to cut the numbers down before they get to fight back.

against biker nob units ive started to use a unit of 8 bloodcrushers with skulltaker on jugger.
around the same cost as the nob bikers, and easily beats them, without taking much damage in return.

Oh point taken, there are ways to kill them, but they are still an absolutely ridiculous unit.

I don't see it as very much different from the situation we had in 4th Ed though.

Mech Eldar, Godzilla Nids. They dominated, you had to build to beat them or you might as well not bother.

Sure they could lose, there were some armies/builds that out and out countered them specifically (Necrons could screw over Mech Eldar real well); but the armies were still ridiculous and obviously "top tier".

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

BigToof wrote:

ChaosDave wrote:

BigToof wrote:While I hear a lot of wailing and nashing of teeth, nobody seems to be able to point to the one thing that over the top. Depending on who's making the comments, it's the Nob Bikers, or the Lootas, or the masses of ork boyz, or whatever is the local beat stick. There's a lot of cool stuff in the ork list which makes it very nice, but it can also also be beaten. There is nothing which is so uber that there isn't a counter for every army in the game. I honestly think it's just the usual new codex bitching.

It's not any particular unit. Its the advent of 5th edition and the cover saves that Orks now get. This gave Orks a huge boost to a codex balanced for 4th edition. The real fix is to slightly increase the points values to more accurately reflect the orks capabilities.

Or down play the cover saves.

Or, *gasp* flank all the units that people are using to give cover saves to their orks. I've had this happen with a number of good players, it's really not that hard. If the ork player wants to come across the board at you, run around him, and shoot the sh!t outta his boyz. ALL orks die really quickly once you start double tapping small arms into them. Which is the reason why "I can't design a anti MEQ AND a anti-Horde" thing is BS. Almost all armies feature basic riflemen of some sort as troops.

Orks may be a bit undercosted, I can see arguments for that.

10 Space Marines double tapping Bolters into a unit of Orks will yield:

20 Shots
13.33 Hits
6.66 Wounds

If the Ork player is smart and has KFF Big Mek (or two) providing "always on" cover saves for the Boyz who are up front, it should cover their boyz should they be "flanked" where they don't have other Boyz giving them a 4+ cover save.

So if he has that, you kill 4.44 orks, or lets say 5.

Still, you've moved up and at best (assuming no KFF, which is generous) you'll kill around 7 Orks.

In a Mob of Shootas, you will then get shot in return, charged, and killed.

The problem with "horde Orks" is that there are usually 3-4 big Mobs of 30. It's very hard to kill one unit of 30, let alone 4 of them, and deal with the Lootas + other support.

Right, but you're ignoring the shots that the marines are going to get at long range.
10 Shots
6.66 Hits
3.33 Wounds
Added to the 7 wounds before, and you've got the mob down about 10 models. However this is also ignoring the missile launcher + flamer. It's also a comparison of 125 points of marines against 125 points of orks, which is about enough for 20 boyz w/o a nob. You add in the nob + PK + heavy weapons, and the numbers become even more interesting.

30 boyz + Nob with PK + 3 RL = 275 points, which is enough for 2 tac squads + some toys for the marines.

So, 20 shots at range
13.33 hits
6.66 wounds

Assume boyz run.

40 double tap shots
26.666 hits
13 wounds

All this is ignoring all the damage that the missile launcher frag template will do at range + the flamer at double tap range. Just as a guess, you've got a half strength ork mob going into a potentially untouched group of marines. If the boyz shoot, the numbers are a little better, but the charge is much less impressive. The boyz really need to out number people to win combats, particular against marines who will wear them down after the initial charge.

Anyway, so much for mathhammer.

Oh, and I don't consider a missile launcher to be anti-horde, it's a general, all around weapon that a lot of people seem to have forgotten about in the rush to las-plas.

voodoo, dont forget that nob bikerz are a huge point sink (hence why i wont take them)
so it means you wont be facing an ork horde as such since atleast 25% or so of points go into a single unit.

BigToof wrote:
Right, but you're ignoring the shots that the marines are going to get at long range.
10 Shots
6.66 Hits
3.33 Wounds
Added to the 7 wounds before, and you've got the mob down about 10 models. However this is also ignoring the missile launcher + flamer. It's also a comparison of 125 points of marines against 125 points of orks, which is about enough for 20 boyz w/o a nob. You add in the nob + PK + heavy weapons, and the numbers become even more interesting.

30 boyz + Nob with PK + 3 RL = 275 points, which is enough for 2 tac squads + some toys for the marines.

So, 20 shots at range
13.33 hits
6.66 wounds

Assume boyz run.

40 double tap shots
26.666 hits
13 wounds

All this is ignoring all the damage that the missile launcher frag template will do at range + the flamer at double tap range. Just as a guess, you've got a half strength ork mob going into a potentially untouched group of marines. If the boyz shoot, the numbers are a little better, but the charge is much less impressive. The boyz really need to out number people to win combats, particular against marines who will wear them down after the initial charge.

Anyway, so much for mathhammer.

Oh, and I don't consider a missile launcher to be anti-horde, it's a general, all around weapon that a lot of people seem to have forgotten about in the rush to las-plas.

2 Squads of vanilla marines is 340 points. So to get close to the 275 mark it would be 1 full squad with flamer+ missile and 1 combat squad with just bolters and nothing else.

First off, 30 Boyz w/ Shootas, Nob + PK & Boss Pole + 3 Rokkits = 250 Points.

10 Space Marines with Flamer & Missile Launcher = 170 Points.

So it's not enough for 2 whole squads.

That's the whole problem. You're not getting 20 SM's to every 30 Orks.

Compare whole armies and the Orks greater numbers becomes even more of a force multiplier. They can absorb more casualties than the marines while still putting out a proportionally higher amount of firepower.

Your statement was that you can double tap the Orks, from the flank to deny them Cover Saves, as if that was some kind of solution to the problem.

It's not. My statement is that 10 BS4 Models firing S4 guns in Rapid Fire will kill 6-7 Orks if there's no KFF, or 4-5 Orks if they are getting a KFF save (likely).

If you're talking about having a stand still fire-fight, then the Orks are getting a 5+ Cover or even a 4+ cover (if using a Kan Wall to generate 4+ cover for all Mobs), and they're firing back and doing proportionally more damage to you than you are to them.

JD21290 wrote:voodoo, dont forget that nob bikerz are a huge point sink (hence why i wont take them)
so it means you wont be facing an ork horde as such since atleast 25% or so of points go into a single unit.

I agree 100%. Thankfully, you're not going to fight something that's a Horde + Nob bikers, but the problem is that you sort of have to be ready for either or; because the presence of either list will generally ruin your day at a tourney.

Still though, how is this any different than 4th Edition where you had to account for Mech Eldar & Godzilla Nids? Two distinct Power Builds (though you generally needed the same kinds of tools to deal with either), just from two different codex's. So two big power builds for 5th Ed come from the same codex, but are also very distinct.

I guess the issue is that you need very different tools to stop one over the other.

While the Skulltaker/Crusher unit is great against Bikers, I would think it'd find a hard ass time against a Shooty Horde, since they have to Deepstrike In, and then take a round of shooting before being able to charge.

just some randomness here, but tau actually fare very well at shooting ork before they can get into combat.

i allways take a solid base of 2 units of 10 man FW's.

20 shots a turn
10 hits
7 ish wounds

14 if in RF range.

its not the best with just basic troops, but even they can cut down an ork horde well.
but mix that with constant fire with 2 railheads, stealth teams burst cannons.
3 broads should be used for killing transport or biker nob.
the basic FW can kill anything in an ork army (except a battle wagon)

crisis teams can add to the anti horde with flamers and burst, using movement to thier advantage each turn.




voodoo with 30 shoota boyz i would take BS's instead of rokkitz


Edit: spelling

While the Skulltaker/Crusher unit is great against Bikers, I would think it'd find a hard ass time against a Shooty Horde, since they have to Deepstrike In, and then take a round of shooting before being able to charge.

you dont drop them in the open, make use of cover
3+ save and a 5+ inv. save with that means small arms fire will do little or nothing.

once they get into combat they will kill anything they can swing a hellblade at.

JD21290 wrote:just some randomness here, but tau actually fare very well at shooting ork before they can get into combat.

i allways take a solid base of 2 units of 10 man FW's.

20 shots a turn
10 hits
7 ish wounds

14 if in RF range.

its not the best with just basic troops, but even they can cut down an ork horde well.
but mix that with constant fire with 2 railheads, stealth teams burst cannons.
3 broads should be used for killing transport or biker nob.
the basic FW can kill anything in an ork army (except a battle wagon)

crisis teams can add to the anti horde with flamers and burst, using movement to thier advantage each turn.




voodoo with 30 shoota boyz i would take BS's instead of rokkitz


Edit: spelling

It's been a long time since I've really put 40k into practice, so when I was playing (mostly 4th with a little bit of 5th); it was that squad config.

Seriously though, I think you're right in that the Tau can kick some serious Horde Ork ass. Markerlights, Markerlights, Markerlights! 3 markerlights = No 4+ Cover for a single unit, then that unit gets hit with railhead submunitions...and then every other shot in the army.

Problem is can Tau deal with Nob Bikers, and at the same time, deal with other lists? I dunno.

yes, nob bikers are easy points for tau.

broadsides, plasma rifles, missile pods, flamers, and even a railhead if your bored.


tau can muster enough fire power to table any army in a solid fire fight.

against ork its just a case of removing thier mobility 1st, leaving them to footslog into a solid wall of rounds from everything your tau can fire, while making sure they dont get any cover saves at the same time.

also, allweapons and units i have just said are very common in tau armies, so yes, they are able to deal with other armies.


as funny as it sounds, the only army ive found that can out shoot tau are nids
fire warriors are great right? what happens when they take 3 pie plates a turn from fex's?
or 6 if your going for a 6 fex army.

without number gaunts give them a constant threat to deal with, while warriors add to the fire with death spitters and another strangler per unit.

JD21290 wrote:

While the Skulltaker/Crusher unit is great against Bikers, I would think it'd find a hard ass time against a Shooty Horde, since they have to Deepstrike In, and then take a round of shooting before being able to charge.

you dont drop them in the open, make use of cover
3+ save and a 5+ inv. save with that means small arms fire will do little or nothing.

once they get into combat they will kill anything they can swing a hellblade at.

Here's where I disagree with you.

Orks don't care about your cover save. Most shooting will give you a 4+ Cover save already as they're shooting through their own units.

Lootas are AP4
Shootas are AP6

You're T5, 2W, and a 3+ Save.

You will get shot by every model that can move and get into range, and most specifically be a prime target for Loota Fire which will put a hurting on the unit.

Granted you will probably not be eliminated through that fire (or the Orks will have to suck up other charges from other units, etc), but you will likely kill a Mob and go through that process again.

I think my point here is that while Crushers can hurt you some Nob Bikers, that's one unit from one army that can come in and do some damage. Against the Horde, they're certainly not all that optimal and will see far less success than they will against the Bikers.

and then they have done thier job voodoo
you dont expect 1 unit to beat an entire army do you?

i like:

skull taker + 8 crushers
herald + 8 crushers

so thats 2 units they have to deal with, while having letters and DP's dropped around them and charging in, and thats while a unit of 20 horrors is throwing 60 shots per turn at da boyz

Actually, the unit he's describing (Skulltaker on a juggernaut + 8 Crushers) is going to murder any single unit in the ork codex. But then again, it's not exactly a shining example of a friendly blanaced unit either.

And for all those people who are saying they can "easily deal with nob bikers" or that "nob bikers are a huge point sink"...sigh.

cent, i love crushers due to thier ability to absord fire while dealing death to anything and everything, i have used them against a unit of biker nobz, and it was over in 1 turn, so i value them for it.

i only say bikers are a points sink as that is how i see them, i am yet to use them, but i dont like losing that many points, i rather have a mixed armoured army with alot of mobility and not have to rely on a single unit to do serious damage.

Here is my daemon list. It is balanced and can butcher nob bikers:

Bloodthirster/Unholy Might

Skulltaker on juggernaught
5x Bloodcrushers/Icon
6x Bloodcrushers/Icon

12x Bloodletters
12x Bloodletters
12x Bloodletters

2x Soul grinder

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Here is my daemon list. It is balanced and can butcher nob bikers:

Bloodthirster/Unholy Might

Skulltaker on juggernaught
5x Bloodcrushers/Icon
6x Bloodcrushers/Icon

12x Bloodletters
12x Bloodletters
12x Bloodletters

G

you have no shooting so the nob bikers should just run away from you and dakka gun you to death.

60 dakka gun shoots 33 hits 22 wounds 1 dead blood letter squad. or 16 wounds and 3 dead blood crushers or 11 wounds and 1 dead bloodthirster. or park your bikes in or behind cover to swing before the khorne units.
I just don't see how you beat a nob biker list with this list.

so sould grinders can no longer shoot? o.o

and dakka guns are great on bikes, and you plan on keeping them away from all units the whole game?

with daemons falling from the sky this isnt possible.

all it takes is for 1 unit of letters to drag them into combat, either the letters will kill them, or a near by unit will do once that also charges in.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Here is my daemon list. It is balanced and can butcher nob bikers:

Bloodthirster/Unholy Might

Skulltaker on juggernaught
5x Bloodcrushers/Icon
6x Bloodcrushers/Icon

12x Bloodletters
12x Bloodletters
12x Bloodletters

2x Soul grinder

G

I've been told that inclusion of 2 squads of bloodcrushers is unbalancing.

Aside from that I've said many a time that Bloodcrushers are the ultimate answer to nob bikers.

There are 2x grinders.

G

cent, i think crushers are the answer to most things

and whats unbalanced about them lol, ultimate killing machines (no pun intended)

If Cent said it I believe it.

G

just a side note, but expensive model, amazing at killing any and everything, unit size of 8 max.

think GW knew they would be used alot hence the price and large unit size? lol

Voodoo Boyz wrote:First off, 30 Boyz w/ Shootas, Nob + PK & Boss Pole + 3 Rokkits = 250 Points.

10 Space Marines with Flamer & Missile Launcher = 170 Points.

So it's not enough for 2 whole squads.

Sorry doing this from memory. That's still 250 points, vs 170. The "They charge you, and then your dead thing" is interesting too, because if you're on a flank, the last thing that a ork wants to do is waste a bunch of time running boyz away from the main action. Running helps some, but you're still looking at a turn or two to cross the board. If you waste another turn or two dealing with a smaller unit, you're wasting 250 v 170 points. You also either move out from under the KFF or waste one of two potential 85 point KFF, taking the total to 335 points used to take out 170 points. Finally, there's the physical space taken up on a table by 30 orks, which is NOT small. So if this is your first unit, that means you've got another unit 6-8 behind this one, or you're bunched as hell for template weapons. If you leave them alone, they can continue to snipe at you, taking down several orks a turn.

This is all sort of a best case too, since in non-tournament play any decent marine player is going to bring pie, lots of cheap pie from the Whirlwind, which is going to kill far more than 85 points worth of models.

That's the whole problem. You're not getting 20 SM's to every 30 Orks.

Could be. You can get ~15 space marines to 30 orks.

Compare whole armies and the Orks greater numbers becomes even more of a force multiplier. They can absorb more casualties than the marines while still putting out a proportionally higher amount of firepower.

Yes, but it's a diffused force, while marines are much more concentrated. Which means that MEQs aren't dealing with the logistical problems inherent in having a line of models stretching out 12-18" x 6-8". By moving to the flank, you turn that disadvantage against them, since by the time you deal with the length of your line of shoota boyz + the distance between the squads, you're going to have models that are out of range. Not so the space marine player. He's going to have more models in range that will be able to hit harder per model, which is where the mathhammer starts to fall apart.

Honestly, the people who have issues with the Orks could be correct, it could be that they're now a bit too cheap, and should be a point or two more expensive.

I just don't see any particular unit as being completely unstoppable, or any unit being without some sort of counter. So to me it's not a broken force. Arguing that a overall force is too cheap is a really hard question to answer because there are SO many possible builds with the dex. It also seems that the GT scene causes the worst abuses to come to the surface, which makes me glad that I don't have to deal with that level of munchinism. Just doesn't sound like a lot of fun. At the end of the day, it's a game, which features a bunch of little models of Orks, Elves, and Undead in space!

Heavy bolters are nigh useless against Orks. You're much better off with Missile Launchers. 48" range to peg Lootas, S8 to plink at armour and insta-kill nob bikers, a template against hordes. That said, Missile Launchers are just the best of a bad bunch. You cannot kill Orks in the shooting phase - there's too many of them and cover is too easy to come by. You have to kill them in the Assault phase, where chaining assaults and "No Retreat!" kills lots of them.

The problem is most armies don't have a unit that can solidly beat Orks in close combat - you really need Khorne. CSM have Khorne Berserkers, Daemons have Flesh Hounds and Bloodcrushers (Also Fiends which are super-Flesh Hounds in disguise). So those are the armies to beat Khorne (Daemons have the advantage of being able to kill Nob Bikers too, if they can catch them).

Striking Scorpions are theoretically good at killing Orks if they can catch them, and Assault terminators can work with Cassius and mix of thunder hammers (to soak PK hits) and lightning claws (to do the killing). They need to hide in a land raider until ready, of course.

I don't really care about Nob Bikers, becuse of the comp environment here they won't see play. The problem is that what would be a middle of the road fluffy list for any other army is over the top for Orks - it's hard to do a genuinely bad build (I made a random ork army generation table and it still pumped out playable lists. Yeah, Orks have bad units like Flash Gits and Looted Wagons and uuuuh..... did I allready say Flash Gits? and Flash Gits.)

Neil wrote:Yeah, Orks have bad units like Flash Gits and Looted Wagons and uuuuh..... did I allready say Flash Gits? and Flash Gits.)

Oddly enough I think those are both good units. And who says that any army needs bad ones to be fair?

I also don't think that anybody thinks that they're going to destory orks during the shooting phase, unless it's IG. Instead the strategy is to shoot them up, and then charge what's left. Orks need superiour numbers to triumph in combat. Losing 10-15 orks going across the table can really ruin a mob.

BigToof wrote:Instead the strategy is to shoot them up, and then charge what's left.

I'm pretty sure that with all the shooting in the world, my FCW are not gonna be charging Orks.

It looks to me that most people here agrees that the new orks are VERY hard and good but not unbeatable.
Bring a list that is styled for a horde army and the game can swing both ways.

It bolis down to that people have to accept that our hobby is taking another direction now. You can no longer
build an army (unless it orks ) and hope to win or fight equally with all other armies out there.
In WH40K now days you are forced to use TATICS, keep extra models and research other armies to be able to
fight a fair fight.

My Blood Angel army is an example. I have made sure that I have plenty of spare models to choose from so that
I can construct a list perfect for my opponent, and for me, that is half of the fun with the hobby


//Edge

Thats all fine and dandy, but in a tournement situation (which is really what this thread is about) you cannot tailor your army to any particular opponent.

Therin lies the problem.

Your basic "Take all comers" list that you typically run for a tournement has almost if not ZERO chance of beating an Ork army (bikernobs specifically) run by a Savvy General.

Tactics frequently come up short when 2 Warbosses and 20 Nobs on bikes turboboost up into your face on turn 1 ...and you made the mistake of bringing a "take all comers" list that isnt specifically designed with Bikernobs in mind.










...here it comes, someone is about to say "just shoot them" or "just charge them" and not really know what they're talking about.

I think my 'nids list is an excellent take all comers list that would be capable of taking on a nob biker list. That being said I can see how a lot of could have issues building a take all comers list but off the top of my head i can make a take all comers list that can compete w/a nob biker list with:

1) Marines
2) Tyrannids
3) Sisters of Battle
4) Tau

Granted those are armies who in my opinion could build a take all comers list capable of dealing with orks.

I'm not going to state tactics. It's much more complex than just shoot or charge them. It's based around deployment, terrain, proper movement, and several other factors. That doesn't mean you have to custom build a list to beat nobz. Just take them into consideration while building you list and weigh you options like you do when you consider facing 'Nidzilla, lash/oblit spam, bloodcrushers+Kairos, LR+Termy spam and all the other power builds out there.

The discussion appears to be drawn into two camps, both of which actually agree with each other but are largely quibbling semantics. Firstly, there is no disagreement on a very fundamental point: Orks are beatable. No one appears to be of the belief that Flash Gits have `Da Winna' among their upgrades, available for 30pts to win any game on the roll of a 2+. Rerollable for an additional 10pts. The main argument appears to be on the specifics of how they are beaten. Bloodcrushers stomp Nob Bikers, massed Heavy Bolters and Whirlwinds chew up Hoard Orks, Tau can outshoot any Orks... plenty of examples have been provided. Examples of how a particular list can beat another particular list. There have also been scenario examples, where a particular army can win by getting into a particular situation with the Orks. Unfortunately, suggestions like this are largely meaningless, as any good player would know that, for example, Lootas are better shooting than being assaulted, and do their best to avoid these scenarios. 40K is very much a standard strategy game in this regard: I know what you want to do, because I know what I do not want you doing, so I have to stop you from doing that while still doing what I want to do. Yes, that is every strategy game ever created summed up in a sentence!

The other camp is firmly asserting that, yes, these lists can beat those lists. Their problem is not that Orks cannot be beaten, for, as I asserted at the beginning, we all agree on this point. This camp offers the complaint that Orks can only be beaten if you do tool for them, and doing so leaves your list completely unable to handle most, if not all, other lists. We must also take into account that `Orks' are the army, but they have several highly viable, and fundamentally different, lists. A list that effectively counters Nob Bikers may find itself swamped by Hoard Orks, as a simple example. Indeed, Orks are not imbalanced due to a low concentration of poor units. No army should have poor units, so that should not be a consideration. The strength of the Orks is in the large number of highly effective units they can field. Add to this that the lists they can form are fundamentally different from every other list in the game. A list that can handle MEQ, Mech and non-Ork Hoard may find itself completely incapable of handling many, or even all, competitive Ork lists. There is also the yet-unanswered question of whether every army can put together a viable answer to the Ork lists. The fundamental question, however, is whether or not it is possible for many (any?) armies to field a balanced army that can have a hope of winning against MEQ, Mech, non-Ork Hoard and the various Ork lists. The holy grail, as it were; a list where the superior general (who has a spot of luck his way) should win, no matter what his inferior opponents put on the table.

To summarise the thread so far, Rock can beat Scissors, but Paper screams cheese because it has been able to put up a fair fight against Rock, but now cannot decide whether to fight Rock or Scissors. Paper is unable to put up a fight against both, and whichever it chooses to beat, the other will surely defeat it.

I agree with the solution of taking more Khorne Berserkers. I play a mech Khorne CSM army, and it's pretty much the bane of orks. I can usually get charges against foot-slogging orks, and the guys in trukks don't have large enough squad sizes to take on the berserkers. Nob-bikers can be tricky, but it's usually easy to predict what they'll do. If I can get two berserker squads in combat per nob-biker squad, (And the two squads of 'zerks in rhinos is STILL less than a full nob biker unit) it's usually enough to put the serious hurt on the bikes. Berserkers are also wonderful anti-MEQ.... Now mech eldar can get a little tricky.

Deadshane1 wrote:
...here it comes, someone is about to say "just shoot them" or "just charge them" and not really know what they're talking about.

I'm pretty sure that you just summarized the pro-Ork argument.

Deadshane1 wrote:Thats all fine and dandy, but in a tournement situation (which is really what this thread is about) you cannot tailor your army to any particular opponent.

Actually, if you read the OP the question was "Is it possible to defeat orks?" GW has made it clear that the tourney scene is not what they're designing for, and frankly I don't blame them. It really doesn't sound like any fun.

Therin lies the problem.

Your basic "Take all comers" list that you typically run for a tournement has almost if not ZERO chance of beating an Ork army (bikernobs specifically) run by a Savvy General.

Right....... I think a number of people have posted situations where a take all comers list can beat orks.

Tactics frequently come up short when 2 Warbosses and 20 Nobs on bikes turboboost up into your face on turn 1 ...and you made the mistake of bringing a "take all comers" list that isnt specifically designed with Bikernobs in mind.

If the other guy wants to put over 1000 points (w/o toys) into two units + 2 HQ (22 models) and run it right in front of your army, and you can't do something about it, you've got another problem. I've faced nob biker lists at tourneys, and won, frankly they don't scare me.

Deadshane1 wrote:Thats all fine and dandy, but in a tournement situation (which is really what this thread is about) you cannot tailor your army to any particular opponent.

Therin lies the problem.

Your basic "Take all comers" list that you typically run for a tournement has almost if not ZERO chance of beating an Ork army (bikernobs specifically) run by a Savvy General.

Tactics frequently come up short when 2 Warbosses and 20 Nobs on bikes turboboost up into your face on turn 1 ...and you made the mistake of bringing a "take all comers" list that isnt specifically designed with Bikernobs in mind.










...here it comes, someone is about to say "just shoot them" or "just charge them" and not really know what they're talking about.

OK Shane, see your point. It just seemed like we were discussing orks in general... from time to time atleast

I am beginning on my Dark Eldar army, and i really see alot of potential in them taking out orks:

1) standard weapons have atleast an AP of 5.

2) Dark lances can eliminate characters and the majority of their vehicles.

3)It ultimately depends on who gets the first turn. If Dark Eldar do, then the orks are screwed, and vice versa.

BigToof wrote:Actually, if you read the OP the question was "Is it possible to defeat orks?" GW has made it clear that the tourney scene is not what they're designing for, and frankly I don't blame them. It really doesn't sound like any fun.

Actually, the question was more `what is the problem?'. While there are plenty of examples readily available of Orks having lost (I have seen it with my own eyes too!), there is a general perception out there that Orks are `broken' and stupidly over-powered, or that even an inferior Ork player can win easily. The question was `are they really that good?'. In other words, is the perception about them being game breaking accurate, or are people slow to adapt their perceptions to realise that Orks are in fact merely `different' and they will become as `weak' as everyone else once people see the chinks in their armour.

We've run this topic into the ground. The rusty spoons are near.

Okay, the (some?) people have spoken and they apparently want to continue this discussion, so have at it!

Elric of Grans wrote:

BigToof wrote:Actually, if you read the OP the question was "Is it possible to defeat orks?" GW has made it clear that the tourney scene is not what they're designing for, and frankly I don't blame them. It really doesn't sound like any fun.

Actually, the question was more `what is the problem?'. While there are plenty of examples readily available of Orks having lost (I have seen it with my own eyes too!), there is a general perception out there that Orks are `broken' and stupidly over-powered, or that even an inferior Ork player can win easily. The question was `are they really that good?'. In other words, is the perception about them being game breaking accurate, or are people slow to adapt their perceptions to realise that Orks are in fact merely `different' and they will become as `weak' as everyone else once people see the chinks in their armour.

I think the answer is that yes, they really are that good.

There's allways a buzz surrounding every new codex (Well, except Dark Angels, haha!) that it's "Too Good" and "Broken" and stuff as we all pick out units we think will be broken and they turn out to suck (like Pedro and Yriel and Thousand Sons). The buzz dies down after a month or two and the next big thing comes along.

Orks have been out for over 12 months. The buzz has not died down in the slightest.

Sure, a good non-ork player can beat a bad ork player. So what? A good general can win games with Tau if they want, doesn't make Tau not suck. In a matchup of players of equal skill, Orks will win. That's why it's a problem.

So what's the difference between this and the previous power builds? Let's look at some in turn:

Nidzilla - This list was killed when people realised they just had to take 10 man tac squads with powerfists to beat it.

Twin Lash - there's plenty of counters to this list (Mech, Psychic hood, Runes of Warding, Grey Knights etc).

Eldar Air Force - Eldar wasn't broken without unkillable falcons, so it was just one specific build copping flak. It copped flak until the edition change killed it. Probably the most similar situation to Orks now (I can remember long threads going over the maths on Falcons whilst noobs held out that they were not really that bad).

Neil wrote:Orks have been out for over 12 months. The buzz has not died down in the slightest.

But Orks have a new codex and players just need to figure out how to beat them still!!!!1!

Seriously, this one fact alone puts the nail in the coffin of the idea that people just haven't started to spec anti-horde. I try to work a good amount of blast markers, multi-shot weapons, and high initiative CC attacks into my lists, and I've got about a 50/50 against the new ork codex. On paper this looks like it's fair, but in reality when many of the people playing orks are noobs who picked up their first models with a couple of AoBR deals... and when one of my first models was a GW-official cardboard-cutout Ork Dreadnought... things don't add up right.

willydstyle wrote:

Neil wrote:Orks have been out for over 12 months. The buzz has not died down in the slightest.

But Orks have a new codex and players just need to figure out how to beat them still!!!!1!

Seriously, this one fact alone puts the nail in the coffin of the idea that people just haven't started to spec anti-horde. I try to work a good amount of blast markers, multi-shot weapons, and high initiative CC attacks into my lists, and I've got about a 50/50 against the new ork codex. On paper this looks like it's fair, but in reality when many of the people playing orks are noobs who picked up their first models with a couple of AoBR deals....

QFT

*gets out popcorn and munches away*

This thread is made out of fun and win.

Here's the Ork dilemma in a nutshell.

Nothing can beat them if they charge you. Orks that charge will beat their point value in anything that they'd choose to charge.

Thus, you need to get the charge. First rate assault units can own Orks on the charge.

The problem is that while you both fence around they can always fall back, safe in the knowledge that they are doing more damage than you are in the pre-fight shooting. With Lootas, shootas, Wagons with burna units, Killa Kans, and that bleeping Kustom Force Field the orks completely rule the pre-conclusive assault part of the game, vs. pretty much anyone who has a shot at beating them in assault. They control the battlefield, and use this to force you to charge suboptimally.

And then they have the WAAAAGH! It's completely over-the-top. If you get amazingly lucky, and you are doing good in the pre-assault phase, and have forced them into 2 bad choice situation they can just shrug, say "Wargh.", and roll to win. Oh look, a 4 from one of the three slugga boy units. Now your shooting troops have been run over, game.

Shoulda gone green, chump.

Allan makes some really good points. I am going to mostly agree with him. But I might not be quite so far on the 'overpowered' side of the argument.

Blackmoor wrote:
So tell me, how do you counter Nob Bikers?

Also how do you kill Lootas?

How do you kill Snikrot?

How do you kill a horde of boyz?

How do you do it with a competitive list in a tournament setting that can also take on MEQs? Not only that, but I would like to see this list for every race since they all are able to counter the Orks.

I have written lists in multiple army books that can answer all four of those questions. While remaining a viable all comers list. Unfortunatly for the metagame, it is only 4 books. SM, CSM, demons and orks (who should be exempt from this discussion) Since those books are the 4 most recent, I would believe that new books will be able to withstand orks a lot better as they come out.

But Allan makes his point. We are talking about 4 out of 12 books? 34% of all books can successfully give orks a game? Other books can do it, but they do it at a cost of their 'all comers' balance.

Blackmoor wrote:
Let’s play a game! What is the best weapon to kill Lootas with?

snikrot... (couldn't resist )

You score another point here. I have played a LOT of games with orks, and most of them with 30-45 lootas. There are a few synergies that lootas have with shootas that stop most good combos dead.

15 fearless T4 models with 4+ cover saves, screen by a large footprint shooty unit that borders on 'elite' CC ability just can't really be attacked in any conventional way. Here are a list of some things I have tried multiple times in game. 3x fire prism, out of range of loota return fire. 3x whirlwind out of los. 3x leman russes accompanied by 3x hellhounds. Flank marching sentinels with flamers andflank marching war walkers with scatter lasers.

None are adequate counters. In many cases, you spend 3 turns with all fo your shooting to finally neutralize the loota threat. And now you see that you only have 2 turns left to START killing the 60-90 man scoring units. Lootas and shootas are quite synergistic.

The true counter to lootas is the counter that you use, and the counter that all of my lists that can give orks a game use. Just eat the shots, ignore them, and try and play on despite what they are doing to your gameplan.

Blackmoor wrote:
Here is a real world example:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Blackmoor_goes_to_the_Las_Vegas_GT_Part_II_(The_GT)#Game_%232_Blackmoor%26rsquo%3Bs_Witch_Hunter%26rsquo%3Bs_vs._Ryan%26rsquo%3Bs_(Shep)_Orks

This is Game #2 at the LVGT against Shep’s Orks. He had:
• HQ
o Big Mek w/Kustom Force Field, ‘Eavy Armor, Cybork Body, Grot Oiler, Mek’s Tools
o Big Mek w/Kustom Force Field, ‘Eavy Armor, Cybork Body, Grot Oiler, Mek’s Tools
• Elites
o 15 Lootas
o 15 Lootas
• Troops
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
• Heavy Support
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Big Shootas
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Grotzookas
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Grotzookas

All those points in Lootas! He could only afford 9 Killa Kans and 90 boyz! He was only able to get a 4+ cover save to his whole “Flimsy” army. I guess that I should have shot at the lootas for 2 turns, and taken about 8 of them out, and ignored everything else in his army?

Not only did he waste so many points in Lootas that crippled his army so badly that he was only able to massacre all of his other opponents.

(makes guilty face) That list performed remarkably well. I am man enough to admit that you out-generalled the hell out of me that game. The mission type favored me heavily, but the spearhead deployment opened the door for you to have a chance. I played a lot tighter in the rest of my games, but truthfully at least 2 of my massacres were from people who just weren't ready for orks. With all of the back and forth and all those kills you made with your exorcists. We ended up with a tie that had to go to VPs. Bad matchup to be sure, but you played with a codex ancient beyond reckoning

One of my massacres was to GT baltimore winner Neil. Funny story about that. His warboss charges a 15 loota unit, and got dropped before he got his attacks. Another reason lootas are good, is because they all have 2 ws4 attacks apiece. Charging a fresh unit, his warboss had to eat 30 strength 3 attacks that hit on 4s before he could go.


In summary and in conclusion,
overpowered? probably

unbeatable? maybe for some armies

unhealthy for the metagame? Absolutely not! By forcing people to take answers to horde stlye armies, this opens the door to taking models with good armor saves without fear of an unrealistic amount of ap3 and 2.

I have way more to say about this... but I gotta get back to work. Great thread.

@Shep

You left out the tyrannid codex which can make a good take all comers as well as be a great Ork killer. Also I can make a good take all comers GK list but no one considers them competative (i think they got way better in 5th but that's just me apparently, and maybe Shayne)

But i agree that the codexes made for 5th all have ways to create take all comers lists while being able to compete with orks. I actually like the trend for the metagame. It makes it far more interesting to go to tournements and play different armies. I got really tired of going to a GT and playing 5 marine players (chaos+reg.) and all of them saying thank god not another marine player to me (orks at the time).

Just my two cents, had to add in the only codex not geared for 5th that i think can build great lists.

Best way to beat orks at a tourny is wait for the guy with the ork bumper sticker on his car to pull into the parking lot and beat him up with your fists.

I play a lot of armies. When I want to win, I borrow someone's orks, and eventually just built my own orks. It's not unbeatable, but it is by far your best shot at winning 5 games in a row against an open field.

This has all but chased me out of the hobby. GW doesn't take the 'game' seriously, why should I?

It's not chasing ME out of the hobby.

However, I'm taking competetive events much less seriously now. I dont really think a win with orks or Lash is really anything to be that proud of after last years displays.

While not unbeatable, at least for most armies against most Orks list, they do seem to have an edge against most armies out there. And I don't think this has anything to do with people being unprepared for hordes, as Orkz have joined with the nids in the hoard armies that do not have to be fielded as a horde army club.

In my area, no ork army ever fields actual mobs of footslogging boyz. The only things that are on foot are boyz attached to snikrot, lootas, and the occasional shoota boy mob attached to a weirdboy trying to invoke the deepstrike power. Everything else is either a Nob biker, mounted in a trukk, or mounted in a battle wagon, the latter two often protected by a custom force field. It is not at all uncommon to have the ork player deploy nothing but trukkz, battlewagons and Nob bikers on the table. Against such an army, you actually require hi strength anti-tank weapons, not heavy bolters or flamers. In fact, I have added more hi strength weapons to my list to better counter orkz of all things. Flamers of course are still good to bring, just because flamers are useful against everything in 5th edition.

In the new orkz have gotten anything that makes them dangerous, its raw speed, not the fact that opponents don't anticipate a horde army. Properly constructed ork armies can initiate assaults within your deployment zone during turn 2. This is what makes them deadly, not that everyone is fielding anti-MEQ weapons(a claim which makes no sense, because AP3 weapons perform poorly in 5th do to abundance of cover saves, so there is a considerable advantage to just using hi rate of fire weapons or assaults to clear out MEQs anyway).

Even if the ork army on the whole is balance, there is one element that is not. The Nob bikers have absolutely zero business being fielding outside of apocalypse. There is no beating around the bush with these guys, they are some broken SOBs, who count as troops for reasons that are beyond me. These guys can single handedly take down an army, and a list composed of nothing but them, while perhaps not being as optimal as a mixed ork list, is far too effective for an army that is nothing but a spam of a single unit. This unit really needs an errata or a nerf or some kind of correction to bring it in line with everything else in the game.

Good points, Shep. Perhaps the Ork release was a major shift in the power-curve as well as the metagame, and things will gradually even out as Games Workshop gradually moves everyone else into fifth edition. This is a bit harsh for the majority of books out there, but perhaps in two years time (or so) things will be back to their usual `balance'.

Shep wrote:
I have written lists in multiple army books that can answer all four of those questions. While remaining a viable all comers list. Unfortunatly for the metagame, it is only 4 books. SM, CSM, demons and orks (who should be exempt from this discussion) Since those books are the 4 most recent, I would believe that new books will be able to withstand orks a lot better as they come out.

That sounds about right. What people fail to realize is that you really can't shoot Orks to death, you need to kill them in assault. What you need is hard hitting, durable units. That way you can use the 5th edition rules against them for being fearless and having a poor save.

Shep wrote:15 fearless T4 models with 4+ cover saves, screen by a large footprint shooty unit that borders on 'elite' CC ability just can't really be attacked in any conventional way. Here are a list of some things I have tried multiple times in game. 3x fire prism, out of range of loota return fire. 3x whirlwind out of los. 3x leman russes accompanied by 3x hellhounds. Flank marching sentinels with flamers andflank marching war walkers with scatter lasers.

The true counter to lootas is the counter that you use, and the counter that all of my lists that can give orks a game use. Just eat the shots, ignore them, and try and play on despite what they are doing to your gameplan.

The big problem with Lootas is their 48" range. If it was 36" or so they would be much more manageable, but no, they made them so they can shoot almost anywhere on the table, and they out-range a lot of guns that can be used to take them out.

Shep wrote:One of my massacres was to GT baltimore winner Neil.

He also won the Chicago GT. You stood in his way of a GW GT sweep.

Shep wrote:
In summary and in conclusion,
overpowered? probably

unbeatable? maybe for some armies

unhealthy for the metagame? Absolutely not! By forcing people to take answers to horde style armies, this opens the door to taking models with good armor saves without fear of an unrealistic amount of ap3 and 2.

This is the one good thing that came out of the Ork codex is that it swung the power spectrum so far over to horde side is that now everyone has to tool up to beat Orks, so that it might give Marines and MEQs a better chance at winning. It use to be everyone tooled up to fight MEQs, and loaded up on the las/plas, and now you can't do that anymore.