I did not see this anywhere on Dakka.

Enjoy.



40K Space Wolf rumours
Some rumours about changes to the 40K Space Wolf army have been posted on the Chosen Realms message board. These are reposted with permission as the site is only accessible to members.

From their website:

Rumours - Having talked to one of the guys at the LGS, (GW Pompey) there are stories (with him having recently been talking to Phil Kelly, and several of the Dev Team, he didn’t explain why) of the Fenrisian Wolves becoming an option for Space Wolf Armies (I’d assume either a Fast Attack Choice, or a non-FOC selection similar to CSM daemons), with Mediocre stats, but Furious Charge, or similar.

Wishful Thinking - Pretty popular rumour as well (no source as yet, but ask any Space Wolf player from before the Eye of Terror Campaign), is that the Wulfen are going to be allowed to be taken as a Unique choice, similar to the Legion of the Damned.


Special Characters include Logan Grimnar (stats brought into line with Chapter Master, Orbital Bombardment), Bjorn the Fellhanded, Ragnar Blackmane, and the old Wolf Priest I can’t remember the name of. Wolf Lords take the role of Captains, no more Battle Leaders. Frost Blades become Relic Blades. True Grit is removed, but Grey Hunters gain 2 Attacks, Points Cost increase (might get Heavy Weapons). Wolf Guards can be taken as either Terminator Squads, or Veterans.

Blood Claws (Power Armoured SM Scouts, BP/CCW, Power Weapon/Fist upgrades as before) can be taken as either Troops, or if taken as Fast Attack, must take Bikes, or Jump Packs.

Iron Priests become elites, can take Servitor Retinues.

Leman Russ Annhilators [sic. Exterminators] removed. Crusaders and Redeemers added. Distrust of new technology suggests that the Thunderfire is not added. Scouts (no longer 0-1) stay as elite, but can take Bikes. Gain Cluster Mines, Sniper Rifles, WS/BS4, Meltabombs, Power Weapons, Locator Beacons.

Not sure over Drop Podding, or Teleporting. They make use of them, but not too keen on it. I’d imagine that they gain Preferred Enemy vs. Thousand Sons/Troops with MoT, or lose it entirely. Maybe the same for Dark Angels.

I’d also think that the Rune Priests get access to Storm Caller, and all of the new Psychic Powers. Wulfen Rune Priests may be limited to “The Gate”.

Interesting

=> wolfpriest = Ulrik ?

Pretty underwhelming compared to the other 5E armylist makeovers, though.

Agreed. Nothing jumped out and screamed "WOW I NEED TO PLAY THIS ARMY!"

Headkeepa wrote:Agreed. Nothing jumped out and screamed "WOW I NEED TO PLAY THIS ARMY!"

Actually, that made me skeptic about this batch

Same here.

Seems like someone just thought of how to 5th edition-ize them, without any of the sizzle.

So...

Careful now, Jervis hasn't had a chance to give it a good spank yet, he has a big one for the Space Wolves and has said before that he wanted to do them personally and correctly.

BrookM wrote:Careful now, Jervis hasn't had a chance to give it a good spank yet, he has a big one for the Space Wolves and has said before that he wanted to do them personally and correctly.

Aieeee!!!!

No, not Jervis and his "personal touch"!!!

"Guns" and "Big Guns" here we come!

Ugh!

That looks really, really dumb. Other than access to LRCs and LRRs you could pretty much just use the current codex and be happier.

Grey Furcoat Salamanders coming soon to a table near you!

old priest of probly Njel stormcaller (sp?) not too sure how to spell it though, last time i saw the model was in the 98 catalogue

Rumours - Having talked to one of the guys at the LGS, (GW Pompey)

heh, im currently in pompey (portsmouth)
i might drop in and see what news they got XD

Njall Stormcaller.

His raven will hopefully be a cool piece of wargear this time around.

Sounds like a reasonable set of rumours.

Its kinda funny that I went to the effort to get permission to repost them and then someone just copy and pastes it onto Dakka ;-)

The original post on TGN has a link to the actual source, Chosen Realms, so please lets not think that TGN is the source of the rumours, we're just reposting them as the original message board is member's only and the public can't read it.

Careful now, Jervis hasn't had a chance to give it a good spank yet, he has a big one for the Space Wolves and has said before that he wanted to do them personally and correctly.

<_< *Looks at avatar* Oh great, at least the puppies will suck as much as us now.

Well, unlike everyone else, all I'm thinking is OMG OMG OMG OMG.... (breathe)... OMG....

A few thoughts though

Reecius wrote:
Rumours - Having talked to one of the guys at the LGS, (GW Pompey) there are stories (with him having recently been talking to Phil Kelly, and several of the Dev Team, he didn’t explain why) of the Fenrisian Wolves becoming an option for Space Wolf Armies (I’d assume either a Fast Attack Choice, or a non-FOC selection similar to CSM daemons), with Mediocre stats, but Furious Charge, or similar.

Wishful Thinking - Pretty popular rumour as well (no source as yet, but ask any Space Wolf player from before the Eye of Terror Campaign), is that the Wulfen are going to be allowed to be taken as a Unique choice, similar to the Legion of the Damned.

This worries me... Fenrisian Wolves and Wulfen being a choice in the SW codex for normal SW armies seems to mean the 13th Company are going out the window. By sneaking these units in, I think they're making a compromise that most will live with... sadly. As someone who played the 13th company even before it was a real army (In the dawn of 3rd ed. my FLGS had a small league where we all created variant codexes to play with [subject to league approval]. I played the 13th Co. with troops being essentially Wulfen (My version was a D3" rage with a 4+ save thinking their armor would likely be tattered by now, but other stats the same), so I'd be REALLY sad to see them go (Got about 30 Wulfen models and 30 Fenrisian Wolves).

Reecius wrote:Special Characters include Logan Grimnar (stats brought into line with Chapter Master, Orbital Bombardment), Bjorn the Fellhanded, Ragnar Blackmane, and the old Wolf Priest I can’t remember the name of. Wolf Lords take the role of Captains, no more Battle Leaders. Frost Blades become Relic Blades. True Grit is removed, but Grey Hunters gain 2 Attacks, Points Cost increase (might get Heavy Weapons). Wolf Guards can be taken as either Terminator Squads, or Veterans.

Blood Claws (Power Armoured SM Scouts, BP/CCW, Power Weapon/Fist upgrades as before) can be taken as either Troops, or if taken as Fast Attack, must take Bikes, or Jump Packs.

Njal Stormcaller would be awesome. Nightwing could either mess with reserve rolls or bar scouts/infiltrators on a 4+ (maybe roll for each unit). Would be an awesome ability. Every ability needs some check.

Grey Hunters with 2 attacks... Even more evidence the 13th Company is going out the window... I could see maybe 20pts/model though for them being a really tough squad to deal with. Also, with Grey Hunters getting 2 attacks, that could be a hint that Wolf Guard get 3! Maybe wishful thinking, but seems logical to me.

Blood Claws, meh... leave them with something cool!

Reecius wrote:Leman Russ Annhilators [sic. Exterminators] removed. Crusaders and Redeemers added. Distrust of new technology suggests that the Thunderfire is not added. Scouts (no longer 0-1) stay as elite, but can take Bikes. Gain Cluster Mines, Sniper Rifles, WS/BS4, Meltabombs, Power Weapons, Locator Beacons.

Not sure over Drop Podding, or Teleporting. They make use of them, but not too keen on it. I’d imagine that they gain Preferred Enemy vs. Thousand Sons/Troops with MoT, or lose it entirely. Maybe the same for Dark Angels.

I’d also think that the Rune Priests get access to Storm Caller, and all of the new Psychic Powers. Wulfen Rune Priests may be limited to “The Gate”.

I like that "Wulfen Rune Priests" are mentioned... maybe there is hope yet! Although, I seriously doubt all SM psychic powers will be available. They have always given extra love to the SW's, but its always at a price! No Stormcaller AND Gate without losing some powers.

All I hope for is 1) Equipment options stay SOMEWHAT close to what they are. 2) 13th company option remains (hopefully with some MotW option) and 3) Njal and Bjorn come back!

Finally some news! So exciting!

Njall Stormcaller.

His raven will hopefully be a cool piece of wargear this time around.

thanks
wasnt too sure on the spelling of his name.
but the birdy was junk, possible a ranged attack?

Yawn. All boring.

On a hopeful sidenote though if i was going to make up some rumours and wanted to totally avoid them being blasted as unlikely and unreasonable, that's the list I would have made.

SOrry Pixlegeek, I actually didn't even notice that until you pointed it out.

I'd kill for some Fenrisian Wolves sculpted with the same care and detail as the Cold Ones.

The rules are just rules...I am excited for the new models. SW still have a singular and potent visual aesthetic.

So basically, rumors match exactly what everybody's been expecting? OK, all good.

I’d assume

Wishful Thinking - Pretty popular rumour as well (no source as yet, but ask any Space Wolf player

Distrust of new technology suggests

I’d imagine

Maybe

I’d also think

Looks to me like most of that is just the author's conjecture, not what he actually heard from the Devs.

I am sweet but I want my russ Bjorn back as a char .

Pretty bland if ya ask me. I am in agreement with the above. A good rumor that would not get trashed like some of the others. Apparently we will have to wait until Christmas or worse to find out. See Ya then.

Seems like how most of us would homebrew a 5th ed SW 'dex more than aany concrete source to me.

I think it's all plausible, but I have some doubts that it's totally accurate. I think it's more likely that Grey Hunters are armed with bolter, bp, and ccw than they are Attack 2 base. But, anythings possible.

Ok, haven't read the OP at all! But I want to just say...


WOOHOOO, SW RUMORS!


Ok, now I will read it...just wanted to voice my joy at finally seeing a rumor post about SW.

Hmmm, joy has apparently vanished...*sigh*


Not sure about the loss of the Exterminator as I have heard we will be keeping it from other message boards. Not sure which board, maybe B&C or some such...doesn't matter really as it is a rumor.

But still no word on how many HQ units per points we can take? I thought that rumor would be hard to keep quiet.

Everything else does seem a "well duh" kind of update.

If I was a space wolf player I would be unconscious by the clobbering of boring these rumors dish out.

Space Wolves are such a cool army with great potential. When they are just baby-blue-smurfs with bad hair they can bring back the squats that bring all the viking vibe into 40k.

Greets
Schepp himself

The rumors imply increased list and unit flexibility, additional units, and updated stats. That sounds pretty good to me.

I think people are hating on the fact its going to live up to what its suppose to be. What is there that is justifiably and uniquely space wolves? All the non-codex chapters are just different organizations of the same basic list concept, with a few additions. Short if Leman Russ himself being in the book, there isn't too much they could add.

We don't know what rules the units have or anything really.

Actually I think people are hating on the fact that we've all become insanely hungry for any news/rumors on upcoming armies, and when something comes along purporting to feed that hunger, but in fact, doesn't add anything to the discussion beyond, "I spoke to someone who spoke to someone, and, um.. I think, take the current C: SM, paint models gray, and enjoy", I think the disappointment is understandable. SW's not keen on drop-podding? Really?

aka_mythos wrote:We don't know what rules the units have or anything really.

Basically, you summed up the disappointment in a nutshell: We didn't learn anything new really.

aka_mythos wrote:
I think people are hating on the fact its going to live up to what its suppose to be. What is there that is justifiably and uniquely space wolves? All the non-codex chapters are just different organizations of the same basic list concept, with a few additions. Short if Leman Russ himself being in the book, there isn't too much they could add.

Exactly. And what's wrong with the Space Marine dex? As a Dark Angel's player I'm seriously considering using it, and calling my army the angels of the winged dagger or something.

If these are correct, then I expect with the removal of the Exterminator that GW will remedy other weird, out-of-line things like all the goofy stuff you can do with Wolf Guard battle leaders and heavy weapons.

I think it's a given that HQs won't be able to take Heavy Weapons in the next 'dex.

As a space wolf player, these rumors are a bit depressing. I hope these rumors are just that...rumors. Most of the stuff listed does not sound very interesting, and I have a hard time believing Grey hunters will have 2 attacks.

Last I heard, they planned on Grey Hunters to be equipped like the CSM are, maybe that is what the original poster of these rumors meant?

aka_mythos wrote:I think people are hating on the fact its going to live up to what its suppose to be. What is there that is justifiably and uniquely space wolves?

Umm... they're not a Codex Chapter? Why don't we start there.

This isn't like the Blood Angels or Dark Angels being given entire books despite both of them being Chapters that (mostly) follow the Codex Astartes. The Space Wolves have an utterly alien organisation for most Marine Chapters, in much the same way as the Black Templars have a different organisational structure as well.

Not making the most of a revised Space Wolf Codex would be a terrible waste of an opportunity. Simply making it Dark Angels Mk.II, with all of the blandness and horribly boring options that made that Codex such a failure will do nothing but make Space Wolves less popular.

BYE

aka_mythos wrote:What is there that is justifiably and uniquely space wolves? All the non-codex chapters are just different organizations of the same basic list concept, with a few additions.

Huh? SW, like BT, are demonstrably non-Codex. SW don't follow the UM Scout -> Tactical -> Dev/Assault -> Veteran progression at all. They don't mix weapons in their Tactical-equivalent Grey Hunter squads. They don't have spare wounds in their Devastator-equivalent Long Fang squads.

If you look at variance, it's like this:
- Codex Marines (no divergence)
- Blood Angels / Dark Angels (small divergence, pretend to comply)
- Black Templars / Space Wolves (large divergence, cannot pretend to comply)
- Chaos Marines (heretical divergence)
____

BigToof wrote:what's wrong with the Space Marine dex?

It only really allows one to play armies consisting of 10-man Bolter Marines with Transport.

If you want to do anything else, avoid!
____

padixon wrote:Most of the stuff listed does not sound very interesting, and I have a hard time believing Grey hunters will have 2 attacks.

Last I heard, they planned on Grey Hunters to be equipped like the CSM are, maybe that is what the original poster of these rumors meant?

I'm not sure why the rumors should sound "interesting". The SW list concepts are well-developed, so there shouldn't be huge changes in theme or design. Mostly smaller stuff in cleanup from 3E to 5E.

If Grey Hunters are Bolter, BP&CCW, then they have effectively 2 attacks.

LOLZ...HBMC and Johnny said nearly the same thing! Will wonders never cease.

I just cannot get over that GW would drop the Leman Russ tank. I mean it is so cool and all for a Space Marine chapter to have.

Anyways yeah SW will get access to Wulfen. I just hope they make Ragnar the external warrior instead of Lorgar!

G(rminar)

That would totally suck if they dropped Logan Grimnar, he is currently one of the best looking models for space marines not to mention the hairiest! (Though he is indeed still yelling... or howling... yiffing?) Haveing Ragnar as Chapter Master would suck ass.... Personally I just hope they get the flavour right. Without Viking Werewolves in space to laugh at us crossdressing goths will have nothing to point and laugh at....

Green Blow Fly wrote:I just cannot get over that GW would drop the Leman Russ tank. I mean it is so cool and all for a Space Marine chapter to have.

Anyways yeah SW will get access to Wulfen. I just hope they make Ragnar the external warrior instead of Lorgar!

G(rminar)

If the IG rumor of a Russ kit with an Exterminator variant is true, then I'd be really surprised if it wasn't in the new SW codex. Easy way to sell more models.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I just cannot get over that GW would drop the Leman Russ tank.

Iron Warriors lost their IG Basilisk, so SW will lose their IG Russ.

But don't worry, you get them back in Apoc.

Remember kids, Jervis loves his Space Wolves big time! I wouldn't be too surprised if he rewrote the rules, background and whatever else to "get them right"

If Jervis wrote the rules, and the Wolves get the DA treatment...

...All Wolf players prepare to drop your chapter for Vanilla.

Nonono, Jervis really loves them, he keeps saying that this is a pet project of his due to the SW being the only good guys remaining in the Imperium, the rest being rapists, looters and murderers. He really wants to do them justice.

Not that I am buying any of that though.

Yea, he loved the dark angels so much he sucked all the love out of me so I dropped them for Vanilla.

(wow, I may have said that wrong.)

If those rumours come true they will, for good and bad, be in line with Dark Angels.

The slowdecline into "everybody plays Ultramarines" might have started.

JohnHwangDD wrote:But don't worry, you get them back in Apoc.

That's your solution to everything DD...

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I just cannot get over that GW would drop the Leman Russ tank.

Iron Warriors lost their IG Basilisk, so SW will lose their IG Russ.

But don't worry, you get them back in Apoc.

Why didn't I just think of it that way! Brilliant, now I can stop whining about my IG automatically losing in KP missions too, because I can just take land raiders and carnifexes as troops... in apocalypse!

BrookM wrote:Remember kids, Jervis loves his Space Wolves big time! I wouldn't be too surprised if he rewrote the rules, background and whatever else to "get them right"

Actually I'm fairly certain Phil Kelly is writing it. Or at least part of it, he was when we last spoke to him a short time ago.

reds8n wrote:

BrookM wrote:Remember kids, Jervis loves his Space Wolves big time! I wouldn't be too surprised if he rewrote the rules, background and whatever else to "get them right"

Actually I'm fairly certain Phil Kelly is writing it. Or at least part of it, he was when we last spoke to him a short time ago.

That is something of a relief.

wow if phil Kelly writes the codex it will be the most broken one ever.

G

I cannot imagine that Gray Hunters are gonna get more expensive, they are already pretty costly.

Green Blow Fly wrote:wow if phil Kelly writes the codex it will be the most broken one ever.

G

As a Space Wolf player I'm hoping it is as good as Phils other codex offerings!

Deadshane1 wrote:If Jervis wrote the rules, and the Wolves get the DA treatment...

...All Wolf players prepare to drop your chapter for Vanilla.

I would never drop them for nilla marines, even if the new dex is not as good as the codex ones I'll just suck it up and do it for Russ. I play the wolves because I like the models and fluff, not because of the rules. If it makes it harder to win with them then I'll just have to become a better player now won't I.

I agree. I have been playing Wolves since Rogue Trader and there is nothing short of turning them into Eldar that would make me quit using them. They are the only army I have owned until recently and they will continue to be for as long as they have them. I started a new Codex army so that Ican team them up for Apoc games. Some of what has been mentioned is ok. I would much prefer they just update everything to 5th rather than any massive changes. They are effective and full of character a rarity in the game nowadays in my opinion.

Green Blow Fly wrote:wow if phil Kelly writes the codex it will be the most broken one ever.

But characterful and fun.

ph34r wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I just cannot get over that GW would drop the Leman Russ tank.

Iron Warriors lost their IG Basilisk, so SW will lose their IG Russ.

But don't worry, you get them back in Apoc.

Why didn't I just think of it that way!

Brilliant, now I can stop whining about my IG automatically losing in KP missions too, because I can just take land raiders and carnifexes as troops... in apocalypse!

I dunno. Maybe you need more Apoc in your 40k?

I don't whine about IG KP at all, because Apoc doesn't *have* KPs.

Um, you know that Apoc doesn't have default rules for stuff switching FOC type. Land Raiders would still be Non-Scoring Heavy or Transport, while Carnifexes would still be Elite or Heavy. But there is a handy Apoc strategem that makes Carnifexes (and other models with wounds) Scoring.

When I tire of IG in Apoc, I'll play my Biel-Tan-type Eldar with Scoring Aspects and Wraithstuffs.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I don't whine about IG KP at all, because Apoc doesn't *have* KPs.

So you've got 5th Ed on your Ignore List as well? Gee man, you really do solve a lot of your problems by sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending they're not there. How's that working out for you... oh that's right you can't see me...

BYE

"Ignorance is bliss", is that your second name? Apocalypse isn't the answer to everything damn it!

BrookM wrote:"Ignorance is bliss", is that your second name? Apocalypse isn't the answer to everything damn it!

It's pretty darn close.

I'm having a lot more fun playing Apoc than I ever did playing tournament-style 40k.

Iorek wrote:Njall Stormcaller.

His raven will hopefully be a cool piece of wargear this time around.

Yeah, it will be a raven shaped cod-piece and be completely out of scale withthe rest of his body.

Death By Monkeys wrote:LOLZ...HBMC and Johnny said nearly the same thing! Will wonders never cease.

Both of them agreeing on something and ignoring each other and not realizing it is the biggest Irony of the week.

That the rumors include the possibility of Grey Hunters getting heavy weapons - this makes me suspicious. In both the second and third edition, it was clearly in fluff that heavy weapons go to the Long Fangs. The rest of the rumors mostly fall into the 'most people can see this coming' category.

I think it's 50/50 at best of SW keeping the Leman Russ battletank, of any variety. SW lack at long-range, and it would be a nice supplement. Since GW did away with the 'no battlecannons for MEQ', I could even see SW getting the LR MBT.

And, as far as owning something that goes against the Codex, I think SW would probably take great pleasure in doing something 'against the rules.' I can only imagine Marneus Calgar and Logan Grimnar having a conversation like this in the Fang:

MC, "Logan, you can't have Leman Russ battletanks or Baneblades in your armory, you need to get rid of them."
LG, "I don't have any."
MC, "I'm looking at them - right now!" (MC pointing to the back fo the armory)
LG, "Oh, those tanks. They're not Leman Russ battletanks or Baneblades. We call them Wolftanks and Wolfblades. But, don't worry, we don't have any Leman Russ battletanks or Baneblades!"

two_heads_talking wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:LOLZ...HBMC and Johnny said nearly the same thing! Will wonders never cease.

Both of them agreeing on something and ignoring each other and not realizing it is the biggest Irony of the week.

But HBMC doesn't ignore JHDD...

The SW are an assault-oriented Imperial Space Marine army.

Having any IG-based vehicles is strongly out of place, much less one with >48" range, so the basic Battlecannon Russ is out of the question.

The Exterminator isn't a bad fit, but better as yet another Land Raider variant swapping the hull Lascannons for Autocannons (2 twin Autocannon, 1 twin HB, pintle-Melta optional - Transport 16, and you're golden).

two_heads_talking wrote:Both of them agreeing on something and ignoring each other and not realizing it is the biggest Irony of the week.

I haven't got DD on ignore. I deal with my problems rather than hiding from them.

BYE

Platuan4th wrote:

two_heads_talking wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:LOLZ...HBMC and Johnny said nearly the same thing! Will wonders never cease.

Both of them agreeing on something and ignoring each other and not realizing it is the biggest Irony of the week.

But HBMC doesn't ignore JHDD...

True. And to clarify, I just choose not to respond to HMBC.
____

... or "HBMC", for that matter.

IMO, there's some deep psychological thing that happens here, because HBMC is actually easier to type than HMBC. I think there's a subliminal "humbug" association that pops up.

Who's HMBC?

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:True. And to clarify, I just choose not to respond to HMBC.

But what about H.B.M.C.?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Who's HMBC?

BYE

Wasn't he that guy who joined up to mess with people who misspelled your name 3-4 years ago?

JohnHwangDD wrote:The SW are an assault-oriented Imperial Space Marine army.

Having any IG-based vehicles is strongly out of place, much less one with >48" range, so the basic Battlecannon Russ is out of the question.

They're assault oriented, but they've always had strong heavy weapon backup from Longfangs and Vehicles (and wolf guard too). Their line infantry (at least in 2nd ed codex), didn't have heavy weapons because they wouldn't stop running at the enemy long enough to fire the thing. I doubt they'll get a LR MBT, but anything's possible with GW. CSM got the Defiler, so GW clearly has no angst giving MEQs a battlecannon.

Not a vanilla Russ, but the Exterminator variant.

GW is segmenting the various armies very deliberately.

The CSM got the Defiler (which no longer has IF) because they don't get the SM Whirlwind.

The Defiler is a Walker, because if it's a Battlecannon Tank, then it's an IG Leman Russ.

Platuan4th wrote:Wasn't he that guy who joined up to mess with people who misspelled your name 3-4 years ago?

No I'll tell you who he is. He's the guy who's been stealing my thunder for years now.

"Great list! Thanks for the help HMBC!"
"If it wasn't for HMBC I'd still be a crap Guard player!"
"Do you do anything else besides complain HMBC?"
"LOL HMBC! Sigged!"
"Just wait 'til HMBC gets here, he always has something to grumble about."
"I can't mount a decent or logical counter-argument, therefore I put HMBC on ignore!"
"I follow HMBC into every thread he posts in, just to be contrary."

And mark my words Platuan4th, one day I will find him. And HMBC will rue the day he tried to out HBMC HBMC!

HMB... err... I mean BYE

I don't see Grey Hunters getting a heavy weapon choice.

G

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:What is there that is justifiably and uniquely space wolves? All the non-codex chapters are just different organizations of the same basic list concept, with a few additions.

Huh? SW, like BT, are demonstrably non-Codex. SW don't follow the UM Scout -> Tactical -> Dev/Assault -> Veteran progression at all. They don't mix weapons in their Tactical-equivalent Grey Hunter squads. They don't have spare wounds in their Devastator-equivalent Long Fang squads.

If you look at variance, it's like this:
- Codex Marines (no divergence)
- Blood Angels / Dark Angels (small divergence, pretend to comply)
- Black Templars / Space Wolves (large divergence, cannot pretend to comply)
- Chaos Marines (heretical divergence)
____

BigToof wrote:what's wrong with the Space Marine dex?

It only really allows one to play armies consisting of 10-man Bolter Marines with Transport.

If you want to do anything else, avoid!
____

padixon wrote:Most of the stuff listed does not sound very interesting, and I have a hard time believing Grey hunters will have 2 attacks.

Last I heard, they planned on Grey Hunters to be equipped like the CSM are, maybe that is what the original poster of these rumors meant?

I'm not sure why the rumors should sound "interesting". The SW list concepts are well-developed, so there shouldn't be huge changes in theme or design. Mostly smaller stuff in cleanup from 3E to 5E.

If Grey Hunters are Bolter, BP&CCW, then they have effectively 2 attacks.

I thought it was scout> devastators> tactical> assault>veteran/terminator.

Depending on the version of the Fluff, Dev / Tac / Assault rotate around, so I don't think this matters so much.

In any case, it's not BC -> GH -> LF.

I would like to finally see long fang dreadnaughts. My big question is what will GW do with wolfguard? It is already zoounding like no more Fenrisian wolves for wargear... Oh well. If so enjoy them while you've got them.

G

Platuan4th wrote:

two_heads_talking wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:LOLZ...HBMC and Johnny said nearly the same thing! Will wonders never cease.

Both of them agreeing on something and ignoring each other and not realizing it is the biggest Irony of the week.

But HBMC doesn't ignore JHDD...

Yeah, after posting that, it occured to me. Obviously HBMC doesn't ignore JHDD as he is usually commenting.. I think I was having a relapse after skipping lunch.. So, the biggest Irony is me... lol

Green Blow Fly wrote:I would like to finally see long fang dreadnaughts. My big question is what will GW do with wolfguard? It is already zoounding like no more Fenrisian wolves for wargear... Oh well. If so enjoy them while you've got them.
G

On the one hand, getting rid of the Wolf Guard Battle Leader HQ choice would be consistent with the SM codex (Wolf Lord = Captain).
On the other hand, the WGBL goes back to the second edition in fluff, and having a Wolfguard (Housecarl) attach to a unit was a big boon. And, iirc, the second edition codex even said something like, "If you really like this idea, just get a bunch of the characters and attach to units." So, it might hang around as a way for a Wolf Lord to delegate some command to one of his trusted housecarls (and that's really what Wolf Guard are). I would guess though that the HQ choice is gone. I think the GHs and BCs will go back to second edition codex and have a Sergeant as the leader (although, they could keep it as a WG Pack Leader for the unit leader). WG will be 2 units - power armor and terminator. I'm hoping that they keep the potential for lots of wargear (which, there's some possibilty based on Vanguard, Sternguard, BA and DA Vets). I'd love to see something like:

WG Terminators - Stormbolter and Power Weapon are standard. Any model can replace stormbolter with combi-weapon. Any model can replace Power weapon with powerfist or chainfist. Any model can replace Stormbolter and Power weapon with Twin Lightning Claws or TH/SS. If unit numbers 5, one model can replace stormbolter with assault cannon, heavy flamer, or CML. If unit number 10, a second model can (and while SW and decidedly non-Codex, if CSM are 'Codex' then SW will be 'Codex too).

WG in PA - Bolter, BP, CCW, grenades are standard. Any model can replace CCW with a power weapon or power fist. Any model can replace bolter with combi-weapon. Any model can replace bolter, bp, and ccw with Lightning Claws. If unit numbers 5, one model can take: meltagun, flamer, plasma rifle, heavy bolter, multi-melta, missile launcher, lascannon, or heavy flamer. If unit number 10, a second model can.

I don't think WG should get heavy weapons unless they are terminators. Keep them where they belong, with the Long Fangs. I also like the fact that they aren't their own squads now, they are tied to their HQs.

And what exactly would a Long Fang Dreadnaught be? I doubt you get the honor of being enclosed in a Dread without at least being a little long in the fang.

I agree that heavy weapons should be the domain of the Long Fangs. But, in the third edition, WG could take heavy weapons, and iirc, they could in second edition as well.

In 2E SW Termies were ridiculously broken precisely because they *could* take heavy weapons.

I don't know about broken the point cost for those hev weapons weren't cheep in 2ed.
I hope they don't hose my terminators to bad. I like having 8 assault cannons in my 22 man unit with 2 chars rend this bugs.

dietrich wrote:WG Terminators - ... If unit numbers 5 ... If unit number 10

WG in PA - ... If unit numbers 5, one model can take ... If unit number 10, a second model can.

UUugk! No. None of this 5/10 crap. It's stupid enough that Chaos and Orks have to follow it, but please spare the Space Wolves.

sonofruss wrote:I don't know about broken the point cost for those hev weapons weren't cheep in 2ed.
I hope they don't hose my terminators to bad. I like having 8 assault cannons in my 22 man unit with 2 chars rend this bugs.

Well prepare to be disappointed. Conventional wisdom says that Space Wolves are about to be hit with the Blandhammer, so say goodbye to flexible unit options, any sort of wargear list beyond identicle weapons (everything will come as standard and be generic), mandatory special characters and a whole host of other items set to make Space Wolves the new Dark Angels.


And I just thought of a Collector's Release special character they should do - Jervius J'onsonius. When you take him your army loses all its special rules. All of them. Just like that.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:UUugk! No. None of this 5/10 crap. It's stupid enough that Chaos and Orks have to follow it, but please spare the Space Wolves.

And I just thought of a Collector's Release special character they should do - Jervius J'onsonius. When you take him your army loses all its special rules. All of them. Just like that.

BYE

If Chaos and Orks orderly codex, then I'm sure all the loyalist will be drug into line with those restrictions, whether we like it or not. I mean, you can't have SW more chaotic than chaos, can you?

But, Jervius J'onsonius is only fieldable in APOC!

JohnHwangDD wrote:In 2E SW Termies were ridiculously broken precisely because they *could* take heavy weapons.

And more than that, they could ALL have HW, not just 1 or two per squad. And iirc, the RAW also allowed you to take an assault cannon with a cyclone missile launcher mounted on top of the terminator. And back then cyclones were brutal! Launch all 12 missiles and it was a 13" blast marker or something crazy like that!

dietrich wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:UUugk! No. None of this 5/10 crap. It's stupid enough that Chaos and Orks have to follow it, but please spare the Space Wolves.

And I just thought of a Collector's Release special character they should do - Jervius J'onsonius. When you take him your army loses all its special rules. All of them. Just like that.

BYE

If Chaos and Orks orderly codex, then I'm sure all the loyalist will be drug into line with those restrictions, whether we like it or not. I mean, you can't have SW more chaotic than chaos, can you?

But, Jervius J'onsonius is only fieldable in APOC!

All in the name of Balance, as defined by GW.

I really hope Jervis is not anywhere NEAR the writing of this Codex.

I disagree,

Jervius J'onsonius will probably be a 1-0/"manditory" HQ choice for any non-codex SM chapter army that is in excess of 500 points .

Scottywan82 wrote:And more than that, they could ALL have HW, not just 1 or two per squad. And iirc, the RAW also allowed you to take an assault cannon with a cyclone missile launcher mounted on top of the terminator. And back then cyclones were brutal! Launch all 12 missiles and it was a 13" blast marker or something crazy like that!

They did eventually FAQ the Assault Cannon/Cyclone Wolf Guard Terminator thing so that it couldn't happen, banning it in all GT's. Other than that there wasn't a huge amount wrong with Space Wolves.

And yeah, Cyclones were brutal. Sure, you only got 12 shots a game, but if you used all those shots in a single turn - BOOOOM - once wiped out the entire flank of an Ork army in one shot with one of those. And that's not to say that Assault Cannons were any less brutal. They were rapid fire Krak missile launchers after all. You could spit out up to 9 S8 shots a turn with one of those. Quickest way to strip the tracks off a Russ was to use an Assault Cannon on it.

BYE

My brother once flew a ravenwing landspeeder into the middle of an Ork horde, blew up the scorcha and the other guy rolled boxcars for the range. He cooked off half his own army on turn one. The other have was "On Fire"

Ah, those were the days.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I just cannot get over that GW would drop the Leman Russ tank.

Iron Warriors lost their IG Basilisk, so SW will lose their IG Russ.

But don't worry, you get them back in Apoc.

Iron Warriors don't exist as a list anymore. If you want to play Iron Warriors you have to use the basic CSM codex.

I don't like the Exterminator Russ, but it would be sad to take away the tank named for the Space Wolves Primarch, especially since GW is finally going to include the Exterminator option in the Russ kits.

I was also underwhelmed by these rumors. It sounds very much like a dumbed down version of the existing SW codex. I was hoping to see something a little more radical. Something to motivate me to build another SW army.

I thought that the whole point for the WGBL was just a cheaper HQ choice because were mandated to have more than your usual amount of HQ's. Seems to me that if they take that away then they would also take away the HQ rule for 750 pts. in your army. WGBL's do make that more manageable.

I think the HQ requirement is gone and they'll have a normal FOC. It might be in the fluff that they tend to operate in warbands, and be somewhat HQ heavy, but I think the requirement is gone.

I also think that the SW Ven Dread will be the SM Ven Dread and only be an Elite option. But, that Bjorn the Fell-Handed returns as an HQ choice, probably lets you reroll go first or sieze initiative, and his lightning claw does something cool (maybe re-roll to wounds or armor pens - which even when you're S10, 1's do happen).

I figure WGBL will be the SW equivalent of Veteran Sergeants (Do SM still get those? Not played against them in 5th yet)

well as a rather new SW player having looked at this so called changes, i can't help but lost heart, another nail slammed into the coffin of my gaming days, anyways, as for the changes, first lets cover True Grit, i have to say this is a huge fluff point in the Space Wolves army, and i was happy to pay a point each model to have them tug out a boltgun over their bolt pistol, they where scary as a back up unit for the BC, i mean some of the other stuff just sounds annoy, but then again Vanilla Marines got forces with frags and Krak grenades (i think the only reason this happened was because GW got annoyed at the fact they had spent the time and effort to make rules for this grenades and no one threw them on their tac squads) the main point that has me completely dishearted though, is the lost of the Leman Russ, back in 4th ed it looked like a beast, it was basically a mobile Devastator Squad that could chew up infantry left and right, which made sense in my mind, have the Leman Russ cut up some orks then have the BC rush in to clean up the left overs, but with the new rules, they should be adding new variants not taking the only one we have away, something with more range, so even if it doesn't move(which it has to do to do any real damage, who every heard of Heavy Bolters being a main weapon, anyways) something with more punch, i would like to see other tanks lost and more Leman Russ brought out, instead of predators and whirlwinds have a Leman Russ Variant take that role, in my mind it makes sense, after all the tank is a name sake of their primarch so why wouldn't they use more than one kind...well thats my thoughts, try and dig through the annoyed hate at GW and take the notes for what they are....lol sorry all

Garuss Acine wrote:True Grit, i have to say this is a huge fluff point

the main point that has me completely dishearted though, is the lost of the Leman Russ, back in 4th ed it looked like a beast, it was basically a mobile Devastator Squad that could chew up infantry left and right,

instead of predators and whirlwinds have a Leman Russ Variant take that role,

True Grit might stay - it's not a big deal. Although Bolter, BP&CCW accomplishes the same thing *and* you get +1A on the charge...

Perhaps you ought to have been fielding more thematic Long Fangs instead of Imperial Guard Leman Russ tanks?

Again, you're a Marine army, so you should use Marine stuff.

Removed my post.

BYE

Okay, HBMC...this is seriously getting out of hand. I'm really getting sick and tired of all the threads I'm reading boiling down to you and DD directly or indirectly going at each other. This is DakkaDakka, not HBMC vs. JohnHwangDD.

Very well. I have removed my post.

But let me just finish with the fact that I'd hate to think that I'm the only person seeing what DD does in these discussions. He is attempting to vilify and belittle Garuss Acine for not playing Space Wolves "properly" in an inane attempt to be 'right' and be on a morale highground.

But I'll simply leave it at that. I'll not bringin it up again in this thread.

BYE

Garuss Acine wrote:well as a rather new SW player having looked at this so called changes, i can't help but lost heart, another nail slammed into the coffin of my gaming days, anyways, as for the changes, first lets cover True Grit, i have to say this is a huge fluff point in the Space Wolves army, and i was happy to pay a point each model to have them tug out a boltgun over their bolt pistol, they where scary as a back up unit for the BC, i mean some of the other stuff just sounds annoy, but then again Vanilla Marines got forces with frags and Krak grenades (i think the only reason this happened was because GW got annoyed at the fact they had spent the time and effort to make rules for this grenades and no one threw them on their tac squads) the main point that has me completely dishearted though, is the lost of the Leman Russ, back in 4th ed it looked like a beast, it was basically a mobile Devastator Squad that could chew up infantry left and right, which made sense in my mind, have the Leman Russ cut up some orks then have the BC rush in to clean up the left overs, but with the new rules, they should be adding new variants not taking the only one we have away, something with more range, so even if it doesn't move(which it has to do to do any real damage, who every heard of Heavy Bolters being a main weapon, anyways) something with more punch, i would like to see other tanks lost and more Leman Russ brought out, instead of predators and whirlwinds have a Leman Russ Variant take that role, in my mind it makes sense, after all the tank is a name sake of their primarch so why wouldn't they use more than one kind...well thats my thoughts, try and dig through the annoyed hate at GW and take the notes for what they are....lol sorry all

Periods. More than little dots.

Reecius wrote:
Wishful Thinking

Sums it up. It's a wishlist--what the poster would like to see..

Some of it will be true simply because it's a natural development of what's already there, most of it won't be.

augustus5 wrote:I was also underwhelmed by these rumors. It sounds very much like a dumbed down version of the existing SW codex. I was hoping to see something a little more radical. Something to motivate me to build another SW army.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well prepare to be disappointed. Conventional wisdom says that Space Wolves are about to be hit with the Blandhammer, so say goodbye to flexible unit options, any sort of wargear list beyond identicle weapons (everything will come as standard and be generic), mandatory special characters and a whole host of other items set to make Space Wolves the new Dark Angels.

It's true. SW players are scared to death of this and they should be. Dumbing down is what GW does anymore. Just look at Chaos and Tyranids. Better models, far less flexibility/uniqueness/coolness. Now all we have is "Nids for Kids!" and "Cha-O's breakfast cereal!" Hurr-Dee-Durr!

Death By Monkeys wrote:Okay, HBMC...this is seriously getting out of hand. I'm really getting sick and tired of all the threads I'm reading boiling down to you and DD directly or indirectly going at each other. This is DakkaDakka, not HBMC vs. JohnHwangDD.

I think JohnHwangDD should change his name to J.H.D.D.

How is a LEMAN RUSS tank not thematic in a Space Wolves army? The tank was named for their primarch for christ's sake. It doesn't get more thematic than that. If you don't like SW having that option, then don't play them. It's as simple as that. Whether they get them in the new codex remains to be seen.

Ironhide wrote:How is a LEMAN RUSS tank not thematic in a Space Wolves army? The tank was named for their primarch for christ's sake. It doesn't get more thematic than that. If you don't like SW having that option, then don't play them. It's as simple as that. Whether they get them in the new codex remains to be seen.

Exactly.

@Ironhide: Because it's an IMPERIAL GUARD tank?

Yeah.

@JHDD:

Currently the Leman Russ Exterminator appears in Codex: Space Wolves, and not Codex: Imperial Guard so by the rules it is not currently an Imperial Guard tank, but rather a Space Wolf tank.

Just playing devil's advocate...

By that reasoning, JHDD, then Inquisitors shouldn't have any vehicles, since Chimeras are IG and LRs and Rhinos are SM. And only BTs should get LRC (since they invented them) and only SWs should get Predator Annihilators (twin-lascannon in the turret) since they invented them.

Whether you think SWs should get a Leman Russ, or any variant, doesn't matter. At present, they can. In the new codex, unless you have inside info, you're guessing as much as anyone who says, 'yes, they'll have them.'

I still say it's probably 50/50 that SWs keep access to a Leman Russ tank (or variant).

"Oh no, a Space Marine Army losing a unit choice?! WHAT WILL WE DO?" was going to be my kneejerk response, but that's a different matter. I rethought this post after deliberation, and I guess it would be ridiculously stupid not to have a Leman Russ/Variant in a Space Wolves army list.

I cannot think of anything to Parallel this, but it just seems wrong not to allow the Space Wolf players, in regards to the sheer fluff mountain, and the rest.

As chaplaingrabthar has said, in fact it would be stupid to take the Exterminator out of the SW list, as that would just be the obliteration of all Leman Russ Exterminators... If you catch my drift. It would be like taking the Land Raider Crusader out of a Black Templars list -- it used to be Templar only (for a reason) before the rest of the SM jumped on the wagon. It would be an insult to the fluff and a stupid technicality.

Avast!

sA

Originally Leman Russ was an IG commander then later his fluff got retconned.

G

Wow. I guess I'm not the only one who thinks a Leman Russ tank in a Space Wolf army is fluffy, and as someone stated:

Currently the Leman Russ Exterminator appears in Codex: Space Wolves, and not Codex: Imperial Guard so by the rules it is not currently an Imperial Guard tank, but rather a Space Wolf tank.

@John: Seems to me that you are in the minority in thinking SW shouldn't have a Leman Russ Exterminator.

Keep in mind, John was arguing in another thread that Space Wolves can't field Land Raider Crusader, Land Raider Redeemer, Ironclad Dreadnaught, or Land Speeder Storm because the fifth edition FAQ doesn't define 'variant'. Actually, I think he relented on the LRC because in the write-up in the SM codex it does state that it is a variant of the LR.

Archonate wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:Okay, HBMC...this is seriously getting out of hand. I'm really getting sick and tired of all the threads I'm reading boiling down to you and DD directly or indirectly going at each other. This is DakkaDakka, not HBMC vs. JohnHwangDD.

I think JohnHwangDD should change his name to J.H.D.D.

You know, that's not a bad idea at all!

Seconded!

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Ironhide: Because it's an IMPERIAL GUARD tank?

Terrible line of logic (or lack thereof) as usual DD.

Currently the Leman Russ Exterminator only appears in one Codex, and it ain't the Guard Codex. And has others have said, there are a lot of crossover units between Codices (Inquisitorial Chimers & Land Raiders for example). Now I personally don't believe that Space Wolves will keep the Exterminator come the new Codex (although, if it's in plastic as part of a re-cut kit, you never know), but to claim that it's against theme and unfluffy now is just plain ignorant. It's a Space Wolf unit right now because it's the only army that has one in their Codex. That simple.

BYE

Last nail in the coffin boys!

G

chaplaingrabthar wrote:Currently the Leman Russ Exterminator appears in Codex: Space Wolves, and not Codex: Imperial Guard so by the rules it is not currently an Imperial Guard tank, but rather a Space Wolf tank.

OK, fair enough, as long as you're content for the Space Wolves to always be stuck with their 3rd Edition Codex from now until the heat death of the universe...
____

dietrich wrote:By that reasoning, JHDD, then Inquisitors shouldn't have any vehicles, since Chimeras are IG and LRs and Rhinos are SM. And only BTs should get LRC (since they invented them) and only SWs should get Predator Annihilators (twin-lascannon in the turret) since they invented them.

Whether you think SWs should get a Leman Russ, or any variant, doesn't matter. At present, they can. In the new codex, unless you have inside info, you're guessing as much as anyone who says, 'yes, they'll have them.'

I still say it's probably 50/50 that SWs keep access to a Leman Russ tank (or variant).

Inquisitors are "special" in the 40k universe - they can take whatever they see.

My basic viewpoint is that it is preferable to limit armies to specific models and options whereever possible, particularly SM armies, to help create artificial differences that enhance distinctiveness between armies. So I don't think that any SM army should have access to any IG-based tanks. I think that it would be a fantastic thing to reduce access to Land Raider / Predator variants and to make things more limited in the Codices, with the obvious understanding that all of this stuff is broadly available via Apocalypse Allies sharing. Narrower lists are better-focused, tighter-themed, and easier to balance.

I thought it was brilliant to remove the IG Basilisk from the CSM Codex, along with Looted IG & SM Tanks from the Ork Codex, forcing the armies to play a more particularly-themed way. The CSM Codex is now much better-themed than it was before, precisely because it covers a more tightly-constrained design space. Same with Orks.

Personally, I'm NOT happy to see the broad expansion of SM Land Raiders and models in the current Codex. I see it as GW just whoring things around.
____

smiling Assassin wrote:"Oh no, a Space Marine Army losing a unit choice?! WHAT WILL WE DO?"

it would be stupid to take the Exterminator out of the SW list,

IMO, your kneejerk reaction is best.

No, it was stupid to take it (along with the Griffon) out of the IG list. I'm thankful to see it return to the IG in the coming Codex, along with the Exterminator and Vanquisher.
____

Ironhide wrote:Wow. I guess I'm not the only one who thinks a Leman Russ tank in a Space Wolf army is fluffy, and as someone stated:

@John: Seems to me that you are in the minority in thinking SW shouldn't have a Leman Russ Exterminator.

No, really? In a SW thread? Imagine that?

Now how about we flip the question to the IG guys asking whether their Tanks should be shared with SM, CSM, and Orks? Any takers on what the majority opinion is going to be?

Or conversely, would you be willing to give Blood Claws to IG as a Troops choice??? After all, Fluff-wise they're just a tiny step up from being Guardsmen...
____

dietrich wrote:Keep in mind, John was arguing in another thread that Space Wolves can't field Land Raider Crusader, Land Raider Redeemer, Ironclad Dreadnaught, or Land Speeder Storm because the fifth edition FAQ doesn't define 'variant'.

I *still* don't believe that any of those should be allowed based on the current Codex entries and wordings.

It is a choice of combat doctrine really. The Leman Russ is a lumbering behemoth but the Space Wolves want to both honour their Primarch and enjoy employing obscene amounts of twin-linked fire power. They did invent the Predator Annihilator.

The Griffon and Leman Russ Exterminator are still part of the Armoured Company IG list -- therefore technically still there.

Have a nice evening.

sA

JHDD loves to tell people they are having BADWRONGFUN. In fact, I think he needs his title to be "Inquisitor Badwrongfun."

Deitrich has it right that saying the Imperium can not make equipment available to different forces is just silly. The LRBT is one of the features of the space wolves, just as much as blood claws and other various puppy toys. They also make more sense from a fluff perspective than Longfangs withheavy weapons, seeing as how an assault force would want a mobile heavy weapons platform to support assaults, not some old guys sitting way in the back being isolated because everyone else is up at the front fighting.

So, Marines only using "Marine Stuff" is silly. If SW were a Codex Chapter, it might hold some weight, but they obviously are not.
Leman Russes not "thematic" to Space Wolves? Obviously false as well.

@Wehrkind: I think you misunderstand me. I'm not making any personal judgement on people or their armies, but I am making a judgement on GW's design decisions.

While, yes the Imperium can make things available anywhere, the more things share, the homogenized the army lists are. Otherwise, we might as well have one Codex to rule them all, and that would be uninteresting.

As far as SW being non-Codex, the question is how far that should go. I think the line should be at the BC/GH/SW/WG doctrinal variances as opposed to adding Chaos Marks or IG Tanks.

JohnHwangDD wrote:While, yes the Imperium can make things available anywhere, the more things share, the homogenized the army lists are. Otherwise, we might as well have one Codex to rule them all, and that would be uninteresting.

I thought we do have one codex, the Space Marine codex. We proved it can apply to all codex chapters, non-codex chapters, and variant chapters, as well as pre-heresy, and chaos chapters! One codex to rule them all!

Also, don't you think your viewpoint about non-homogenized Imperial Armies is a little silly considering just about every SM chapter unique stuff eventually ended up available for all chapters? That and the cross-pollination afforded through the inquisition codicies makes this even more silly. Add in the fact that most of the chaos marines are exactly the same as their loyalist counterparts, and you have a very bland, imperial playing field all ready.

So what you're really advocating is one space marine codex, one chaos codex, and one IG codex?

That's funny. A minute ago he was criticising people for being unthematic with their lists, now he's blaming GW's design choices.

That's what I like to call "back-pedalling".

BYE

I don't think that anyone is going to claim that the SW function just like a variant IG because they can take the LR. They are much more likely to be seen as Chaos marines sans spikes and daemons without the tanks.

It makes much more sense to mix and match from available units, and extant tech fluff wise, than to give the wolves something created from whole cloth. This does not mean that every Space Marine army should be different by virtue of having some random IG tank, but ONE variant chapter having ONE IG tank is hardly homogenized.

IG, SM, WH, DH and spiky SMs are already homogenized. They all have the same weapons. A couple tanks don't make much of a diff.

Alpharius wrote:All in the name of Balance, as defined by GW.

I neer asked them to do anything for me! It was all their own idea.

I was chatting about this a couple weeks ago and had the thought that losing a lot of the variants, at least temporarily, is probably a good step towards making the game tournament-friendly. GW still attempts (badly) to balance a ton of army books.

If only they'd get serious about this and realize it's the core rules that seem to cause a lot of the confusion.

whitedragon wrote:I thought we do have one codex, the Space Marine codex. We proved it can apply to all codex chapters, non-codex chapters, and variant chapters, as well as pre-heresy, and chaos chapters!

Also, don't you think your viewpoint about non-homogenized Imperial Armies is a little silly considering just about every SM chapter unique stuff eventually ended up available for all chapters?

So what you're really advocating is one space marine codex, one chaos codex, and one IG codex?

How does the SM Codex apply to Blood Angels or Black Templars? How does it apply to Marked / Cult Chaos units? Did I miss something?

What I want isn't necessarily what GW provides. But if we're all wishlisting, then I believe that I'm allowed to state what I want, even if I know that GW won't give it to us.

No, what I'm advocating is C: SM, C: BA, C: DA, C: SW, and C: BT, along with C: CSM, C: Necrons, C: SoB, C: IG, and C:=I= each to have the maximum number of exclusive and unique units possible. With the Crusader / Redeemer being a single kit that doesn't compete with itself for sales, I might have added a rule that no Chapter can field both types.

JohnHwangDD wrote:With the Crusader / Redeemer being a single kit that doesn't compete with itself for sales, I might have added a rule that no Chapter can field both types.

To what end?

Where's the fun in that? Buying a kit you can only use half of.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:With the Crusader / Redeemer being a single kit that doesn't compete with itself for sales, I might have added a rule that no Chapter can field both types.

To what end?

Where's the fun in that? Buying a kit you can only use half of.

BYE

Not to mention the arbitrary part: Blues and Yellows get the Redeemer, Reds and Greens get the Crusader. That's that and no other way is possible.

BrookM wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:With the Crusader / Redeemer being a single kit that doesn't compete with itself for sales, I might have added a rule that no Chapter can field both types.

To what end?

Where's the fun in that? Buying a kit you can only use half of.

BYE

Not to mention the arbitrary part: Blues and Yellows get the Redeemer, Reds and Greens get the Crusader. That's that and no other way is possible.

Then we need another LR variant for the black marines and the grey marines and ......

If you can have fluffy and distinct fantasy armies even though everyone has block units of spear and shield carriers, I see no problem with one flavor of space marines using a single tank from an alternate list. Especially since it is only a small improvement over an uncontroversial tank they already get.

I'm far more worried that my 13th company will disappear back into the warp to hang out with squats and LaTD.

So is anyone going to do something about their ability to have umpteen Pfists and insanely disproportionate points values? What's their codex from again, 2nd edition?

3rd Edition.

If it was from 2nd Edition they'd be like Squats - they wouldn't exist.

B

Mmmm... I'd say more like 2nd Edition. I know it showed up after the release of 3rd edition, but they still hadn't completely cleansed the 2nd edition toxins from their veins and I think the Codex was written with a somewhat 2nd edition mentality...

whitedragon wrote:I thought we do have one codex, the Space Marine codex. We proved it can apply to all codex chapters, non-codex chapters, and variant chapters, as well as pre-heresy, and chaos chapters! One codex to rule them all!

This is every non-SM player's dream... Think how much cooler all the other armies might be if GW didn't away 90% of their time and resources on SMs...

You mean like Orks, Daemons, and the upcoming Guard?

Precisely like them. That is quality that we should have had a long time ago. It feels like GW wakes up every few years and says "Oh yeah! Almost forgot we have armies that aren't SMs!"

But as this is a thread about Space Marines, I'll cease my ranting.

SWs... Whoopee!

P.S. Kinda annoying that GW is so tight lipped about what it's doing beyond the release of IG...

They're tight lipped about the release of IG as well. They're impossible.

BYE

The braggarts.

I mean, we have NO clue about the Guard now, do we?

sA

See I can't tell whether you're being a smart ass, of serious.

BYE

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:So is anyone going to do something about their ability to have umpteen Pfists and insanely disproportionate points values? What's their codex from again, 2nd edition?

As I've said before, I expect them to get 'codexized'. Yes, I know they shouldn't be since they're decidedly non-Codex. But, if Chaos and Orks fit some 'codex' number system, SWs will too. My guess is that at every 5 full models, someone can upgrade their gear.

hehe ... this duscussion is pretty interesting.
i'm playing sw now since about 15 years or something ...
andi'm really looking forward to the new codex, but don't care much about what i'll might find inside.
i mean isn't the great thing about this hobby to give everything your own personal note? if you don't like black templars, paint them blue and call them blue templars.
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no matter what the codex will say, my wolves will stay how they are and continue developing in exactly that direction I judge as fitting. i would never take a specific unit into my army, just because it could give me an advantage in a game. i only use units that i really like and even further create my own rules for those not yet existing. the hobby has different aspects. for converters, painters, builders and storyteller, the options in the army list will never have the same weight and importance as for the players.

ill be happy as long as they bring back Bjorn the fell handed and Njal Stormcaller. Anyone remember one of the old 2nd edition characters called Ranulf i think he lifted a landraider on his own or something i used to like him too.
wolves seriously need new character models to except Logan. Ragnar has gotta be the oldest character model going still in use along with Ulrick.

The four main characters Ragnar, Ulric, Njal and Bjorn are the four oldest named char models. They need some love.

dietrich wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:So is anyone going to do something about their ability to have umpteen Pfists and insanely disproportionate points values? What's their codex from again, 2nd edition?

As I've said before, I expect them to get 'codexized'. Yes, I know they shouldn't be since they're decidedly non-Codex. But, if Chaos and Orks fit some 'codex' number system, SWs will too. My guess is that at every 5 full models, someone can upgrade their gear.

That sounds very, very reasonable actually... Tell me you're on the development team in some way. But my question is, who's going to fall by the wayside as they make up for letting go of other armies for a while?

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:But my question is, who's going to fall by the wayside as they make up for letting go of other armies for a while?

Dark Eldar

But seriously, what do you mean by this. Clarify if you please.

Well that's where I was going actually... Are they going to continue showing DE no love whatsoever (despite all the rumours about new stuff)? I guess I'm worried about my bugs too as there are so many things in the current codex that just don't work or are disproportionate now.

H.B.M.C. wrote:See I can't tell whether you're being a smart ass, of serious.

BYE

If you mean "tight lipped" by officially, then you're pretty right.

We know much of it already, however.

sA

So what are the rules in the new Codex then? Points values? Options? Do we know exactly what units are in the Codex? Is Platoon Drill real? What is the order system?

Hell we don't even know what's in the Guard 'First Wave'. And this, as I said before, is after an 'Open' Day.

BYE

I mean, (from my point of view, i.e. Models) then we know, and we have seen, at least more than I would qualify GW to be "tight lipped". Don't we usually not find out about Points, Options, and the rest until it's actually released?

However, you are (damnably) right. We don't know these things, I was saying it from the unenlightened modeller's point of view.

Technicalities...

sA

This is a sharp contrast with the months leading up to the Marine codex last year.

Shows how much I follow things.

sA

Yeah, most of us had a copy of the Marine Codex (in one form or another) by now, be it a PDF of photographs, or just the Codex itself sans colour/fluff sections.

BYE