This is straight from him - no summaries or compilations on my part:

A disclaimer. Games Workshop is currently adding the final touches to the IG Codex and as such any info you read here is not guaranteed by myself. What I present here is info I have gathered from various sources one of which is a mock up of the Codex which may be a key part in the final production. As the codex has yet to be formally prepared for print all info is subject to change and/or be removed as the design and test teams of this Codex see fit. I ask anyone reposting this information elsewhere simply carry this disclaimer with it. Thank you.

Releases;

Launch Wave(Wave 1);
Codex
Primaris Psyker(2 Metal Models)
Ratling Snipers(4 Metal Models
Sentinel(Recut to contain a huge amount of options for various outfittings)
Cadian Command Squad(Officer and 4 Guardsmen. A huge box of goodies. This will contain 2 different Officer looks as well as 4 Cadians with various head, pouches and weapons. The beautiful thing here is all Special Weapons in plastic a several CC Officer weapons as well)
Valkyrie
Cadian Shock Troops
Catachan Jungle Fighters

**Please note that originally a Catachan Command Squad and "new" recut of the models was meant to to be released here. This however has disappeared from my list**

Wave 1.5
This wave is technically a multi wave of various armies being planned with Planet Strike. As such this may be before or after the 2nd wave release. This one is the most unlikely of them all and has thus far only been alluded to me by some people.
Modern Rough Riders(I cannot confirm bikes instead of horses but I have been told.....less Fantasy more gritty sci-fi)
Storm Troopers/Arbite Riot Team(I do not know if these are the same release or separate however they are plastic and will be less Kasrkin, more Imperium)
Naval Fleet Officer Adjutant(1 Model)
Artillery Overseer(1 Model)

Wave 2
Leman Russ Recut(Will include 4 variants)
Chimera Recut(Will include the Chimera, Hellhound, Salamander and various outfitting options)
Commissar Lord and Commissars(The new lord is plastic and will be released at the same time as 2 new metal models, giving us 5 metal Commissars and a plastic lord)

Wave 3/Unknown
These are things that are being released eventually I am told but have no exact info when. The only thing I am pretty sure on is that they will not be released at the time of the First wave.
Artillery Tank(Basilisk and 2/3 other variants. My bet is for sure Griffin and Medusa and have heard the word Manticore thrown around)
Veteran Models(Metal not sure if they are meant to be officers or Veteran soliders)

Army Wide Rules;

Platoon Fire Drill
This rule will allow any platoon that is equipped with a Vox network in ALL squads to shoot through each other without granting the enemy cover saves. This will not effect each platoon as a whole as only members of the same platoon can fire through one another.
- However there is talk of how people will keep track of who is who when the game starts without conversions. As such this may be scrapped or changed to effect every unit that has a vox provided a Master Vox is taken in each Command Squad.

Lumbering Behemoth
This rule is meant to show the Leman Russ as the workhorse of the Imperium. As such any Leman Russ(I have been told just Leman Russ this could mean all or just the MBT though)to fire all Offensive weapons as defensive weapons when they have moved a max of 6 inches. Note however firing the Ordnance of any such vehicle will still not allow it to fire other weapons.
- This is/was a variant that allowed you to fire the Battle Cannon and any one weapon with it, this however has not been heard by my ears for sometime now.

Advisers
Attached the Command Squad of the officer in charge are various Advisers/Aides from different factions able to assist the guard in their fight.
- Although about 12 have been tossed around these 4 I have heard several times;
Priest 45 Points - Allows the entire army, once per game to fleet and gain +1 attack and reroll all failed to hits. May only happen in the IG players turn. Must be declared in the shooting phase.
Naval Attachment 25 Points - This close support officer is observing the battle and is able to call in pin point strikes from the might ships of the Imperium in orbit. Once per game an Orbital Bombardment may be used in the IG players shooting phase. This strike will only scatter if a HIT is not rolled, and will only scatter D6 inches.
Artillery Observer 40 Points - Can call in long range artillery well outside the active warzone. This can be used to call up to 3 Earthshaker rounds per game, they may come in any shooting phase the IG player wishes and can all be used at once or separately. They will always scatter 2D6 inches.
Commissar Lord 40 Points - This man can install the fear and faith into any loyal servant. This unit will allow up to 10 Commissars to be attached to the Regiment rather than the usual 5 and will be able to once per game rally any and all fleeing IG units on the table automatically.

The Units
HQ

The HQ is home to Special Characters of the IG as well as the required Field Command Platoon. Honestly the Special Characters have been flying around and there are about 18 choices with only 6 or so making it into the book. Personally I think we will see; Yarrik, Cain, Gaunt, Creed, and two or 3 of the new ones.

Field Command Platoon.
Consists of 1 Commanding Officer or Junior Commanding Officer(Roughly a SO or HSO)with 4 guardsmen. The unit can then add up to 1 of each Adviser. Can be taken as "Grenadiers" instead of regular Guard.(Also talk of this allowing up to 3 Storm Trooper squads to be taken as troops) May take a Chimera or Salamander Command Vehicle.
0-2 Veteran Squads(Replaced with Storm Troopers if the Grenadier option is taken)
0-2 Special Weapon Squads
0-2 Heavy Weapon Squads
Max of 5 Squads can be taken.

Primaris Psyker. Basically the Guard version of a Space Marine Librarian. Has Guardsmen stats, but has several powers it can choose from and can purchase a hood. This has been moved between its own choice and an adviser option several times. **When I mentioned that they were not so nice I meant the model, the rules will be fun i think sorry for any confusion)**

Cadet? Commissars 0-5. These may be placed in any unit within an IG platoon. One per unit max. Do not use up an HQ choice. Also on the subject that 3 Heavy Bolter Commissar squad I have read about while very fluffy seems to be absent from anything I have seen. I am not sure if this was wishlisting that got absorbed or if I missed it.

Elite

Veteran Squads(No infiltrate)

Storm Trooper Squads

Sniper Team - 6 Models, all armed with Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks, Stealth[This would give them Stealth twice as the Camo Cloak gives them it too.....unless they are meant to get +2 to all cover saves], Range Finders and Infiltrate.
*Also this squad has been considered to be moved as a 0-1 platoon option rather than an elite choice*

Ogryns, I was mistaken here. The talk is T5 or FNP not both. Well at one time it was both but it was considered to "hard" for them. Nothing much changes except that someone wants 3A 3W for the same points.

Ratlings - 10 Models, all with Sniper Rifles and BS 3[So I have read could change but might make our Sniper teams more elite]and Stealth.
Their old rule for being small has simply been replaced for stealth. At 10 points each they are a steal.

Spearhead Sentinels - That is right Armour in out elite section! Actually not much basically just a sentinel with 3 different weapons(Lascannon, Multi Melta, Plasma Cannon and 11 front Armour) This is the one I am most unsure about. The problem is whether to include them all as Sentinels or have two entries, and if so where do the entries go.

Troops

We have only one troop choice. It is the Infantry Platoon. **I know some talk of Penal Legion troops has been muttered somewhere. I cannot say for sure if these will make it. If they do they may very well be troops**

Platoon Command(May take Chimera)
2-5 Infantry Squads(4 points each, may take 2 special weapons OR 1 Special and 1 Heavy, May take Chimera)
0-2 Heavy Weapon Squads(May not take Chimera)
0-2 Special Weapon Squads(May take Chimera)
*0-1 Sniper Team(May not take Chimera)
5 Squads + Platoon Command Max
Attachment; if all units have a Chimera then a Hellhound may be taken as part of the Platoon and not as a FA slot. If all units do not have a Chimera the squad may have a Scout Sentinel or Salamander Scout Vehicle Attached instead.

-Chimeras have a wide variety of weapons including the popular Auto Cannon and a new one. The rules are virtually identical to the ones located in the IA update-

Fast Attack

**Honestly the Vehicles that this new Spanish site has posted have never come to me. I will not say for sure they aren't real as BoLS has had confirmations on one of them**

Hellhound

Salamander Scout Vehicle

Scout Sentinel (See Spearhead) - This variant would be AV 10 all around, have scout and be equipped with a Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer, Autocannon, Multi Laser or twin CC Weapons.

Vendetta/Vulture Gunship - 24 inch fast skimmer, may shoot all weapon no matter how fast it moves. Various loadouts

Valkyrie - 24 inch fast skimmer. May carry Storm Troopers or Veteran Squads and deploy them even after moving 24 inches.

Rough Riders

Heavy Support

**Honestly the Vehicles that this new Spanish site has posted have never come to me. I will not say for sure they aren't real as BoLS has had confirmations on one of them**

Leman Russ Squadron - The Squadron has AV 14 at the front. Although people claim a 13 so this could change but I have heard no such change. This unit may ONLY be MBTs with no variants. The Squadron does NOT act like a Squadron and the vehicles may be placed separate. The choice is a 0-1.
*This unit is one of the most unsure things around. Honestly GW wants it in there. The Leman Russ is EVERYWHERE the guard are, however playtesters are finding this 600ish point unit is "cheesy" If my opinion counts it will make it into the codex for fluff sake*

Leman Russ
Leman Russ Vanquisher
Leman Russ Demolisher
Leman Russ Exterminator
*These are the only 4 I know for sure are being a "shoe in" for the codex. There are other variants being worked on/debated*

Basilisk
Griffin
Medusa
*Medusa is a possibility*

Well I think that covers the main bulk of what I know for sure. As I said things change and I will try to update what I hear and see and answer any questions as best I can.

So 5 Russ's possible for the IG? Not a good time to be an MEQ.

Oh great, that arsewipe Cain might be in the codex.

My thoughts on these new rumors:

- Bummed about the Catachan re-cuts and command squad being cut from the list. I was really looking forward to that.
- Hm - non-fantasy, grim-gritty Rough Riders. Coolio.
- I'm very stoked to hear the new Storm Trooper box alternately referred to as an Arbites Riot Team.
- Priests - continue to be mostly useless. If Ogryns are going to be excellent, then Priests may have a use when it comes to coordinating an attack with them, otherwise - meh.
- HQ - Cain! SWEET! The most cowardly Commissar in the 40k universe may get some rules - roxxor!
- Primaris Psyker - sounds very interesting.
- The Attachment rules for vehicles in platoons sounds very interesting. I'm digging on that.
- Vendetta/Vulture - Brutal!
- Heavy Support - I'm a little disappointed to hear that only LRBTs may be in squadrons. Depending on the size of the squadron (I'm assuming 1-3), that means I'll be able to take 2 more tanks than in the current codex. Bleh. With the vehicle attachment rules, though, it looks like I can take up to 9 Hellhounds, though! (Although to do it, I'd need to take 18 Chimeras!)

And a few more tidbits from Mkoll in response to initial questions about this post:

Just one question about the Infantry Platoons. You say "Max of five squads" Does that include the Heavy Weapon Squads? As in, if I want two HW Squads, can I then only take a max of three Infantry Squads?

Yes. You will only be able to field a maximum of 5 squads out of any combination, 2 of them must be Infantry.

mkoll after the release of the codex, how long will take until the release of the 2nd wave?

On average 4 months seems to be norm, but then again it looks more like 6 these days. I would put my money on early December for them but as I said no set date for sure.

and the possible recut of the catachans was went down the pipe?

Well I never saw the recut normal men, just the Command Squad, the recut was just told to me. As to where they went I am not sure. Perhaps delayed for second wave to ensure they get the recut done. I am not sure.

sounds like GW screaming "BUY OUR NEW MODEL!!" armata_PDT_01.gif There's gonna be a lot of airborne armies armata_PDT_01.gif
Can they be taken as a dedicated transport or will they always take up a FA slot? Any word on Hellhounds being squadronized?

Yes I personally beleive this rule will be stamped out for balance issues but GW does like to make the new models better for people to get ahold of more of them.

As to the Hellhounds sadly not that I have heard anymore. The idea was that Hellhounds were going to increase in number, I think they feel this will be done via Troop attachments to Chimera Platoons. However as I have said nothing is for sure and Hellhound platoons was an idea thrown around before.

So no more 6 lascannons & 6 autocannons for me...

Not in one platoon.....however throughout the army you can have way more than that. No need for Heavy Weapon Platoons, each Troop Choice(and you have to have 2 everygame)can net you more.

Mkoll: Noticed that Medusa was mentioned twice in the Heavy section. I assume that the one in the **** should be the Manticore?

No, the Medusa was meant to be in the * *. As i have said the Artillery boxset is quite far down the line and there has been no confirmation to me as to what it would entail for certain.

I see Ratlings are 10, are they no longer a flex squad of 3-10?

Well the Veterans seem to simply represent better equipped and more experienced Guardsmen NOT elite troops. As such that was removed in the entry for them I saw. It might return though. Ratlings are 5-10.

What of the rumors of being able to take drop troops, light infantry etc as squad options for platoons? I see the Chimera only.

That is where the Special Characters come in. I know one of the rules for Gaunt was any Platoon may take Light Infantry and not Chimeras. There were ideas for a Harkoni Character for Airborne, but some want drop guard to stop and only have the Storm Troops to do that. However there was/is talk of Valks for everyone as dedicated transport which is in some ways more fluffy.

Will the primaris pysker have the same powers as SM librarians?

No. I have seen various bits on them and some are shooty and mean like the Libbies but the most are more supportive.

I'm assuming from your comments about Heavy Support that while LRBTs may be squadron-able, that none of the other Heavy Support will be - consequently, treadheads will be limited to a total of 5 Leman Russ chassis tanks. (Although, it looks like with the vehicle Attachment rules that you can take up to 9 Hellhounds total! Though you'd need to take 18 Chimeras to do it!)

Correct. This will give you the ability to take 1 of all the ones I listed. I said there would be no armoured company anymore, just the ability for a lot of armour. And for those worried about their Mech armies they are there and stronger(and cheaper)then ever.

Oh oh! This has got me brainstorming ideas for Caiphas Cain's rules again!

Make him fearless (HAH) but give him Ld 7. Every turn he has to roll a leadership test. If passed, he's somehow figured out how he can better be used further behind the lines, and is moved to a squad further away from the enemy

Whenever a unit Cain is a member of charges, Cain is immediately removed from the unit, and becomes an independant character.

Oh this'll be alot of fun!

Oh and thanks for the info. Maybe I'm dense, but it seems that all the rumors can't get a straight answer on whether the Cadian Troops box set is a recut, or just a rebox. I'm hoping for a recut of awesomeness on par with the Ork Boyz box.

BrookM wrote:Oh great, that arsewipe Cain might be in the codex.

Die heathen! Cain rules!

Scottywan82 wrote:

BrookM wrote:Oh great, that arsewipe Cain might be in the codex.

Die heathen! Cain ruled!

Fixed.

Novel characters make for bad gaming characters. Just look at Schaeffer and Kage, or Gaunt. If Cain is added to the list we'll have three commissar themed special characters.

BrookM wrote:Novel characters make for bad gaming characters. Just look at Schaeffer and Kage, or Gaunt. If Cain is added to the list we'll have three commissar themed special characters.

Sad, but mostly true. Gaunt's lousy. And while the rules for Schaeffer and Kage themselves are pretty uninspiring, the Last Chancers rules did make for the most abusable armies possible using the IG army list.

Death By Monkeys wrote:And while the rules for Schaeffer and Kage themselves are pretty uninspiring, the Last Chancers rules did make for the most abusable armies possible using the IG army list.

I think they need to drop Kage again and return to the Dirty Dozen Last Chancers from 3rd ed. So much more fun, especially if they could do the "12 people vs whole army" thing again.

If I want the Last Chancers I'd love to see the return of the original twelve misfits. Those were a lot of fun. They also somehow managed to make Kage not a whole lot like in the novels, while Schaeffer is a bit more like what was revealed in the last book.

The thing with novel characters is well, the obvious "restrictions": Gaunt serves with the Tanith and Cain serves with the Valhallans. Oh look, I got Gaunt leading a unit of Ogryn in a Catachan army. Besides, if Cain is in the new codex, then so would Jurgen and wouldn't he be needing some sort of special rule that says: "FU psyker, I stink and block psychic powers plus I has a melta"

I do find Cain an odd choice, he's nowhere near as prostituted as Gaunt, plus the guy is a joke character! (poorly copied from the source at that)

I'm not sure how to feel about making more Special Characters, I love the idea of the command box though.

Finally a set of rumors that looks reasonable. That stupid BoLS nonsense was just too much. I don't care where they got their "confirmation", this looks much better to me.

I mean, just look at the old hellhound variant names. It's like a 9 year old came up with them:

Bane, Hell, Devil - Wolf, Hound, Dog... totally lame

Special characters are good fun, but make them more diverse and don't take them from novels.

This is giving me hope in my IG.

Can't wait to break out the Salamanders.

Also very interesting to see Leman Russes get the Zoanthrope option (buy 3 for 1 FOC, deploy seperately). With the Artillery adjunct, you can have 3 MBTs, 2 more Leman Russes of any variant, and still get some Earth Shaker artillery shots. NICE.

I'm loving the idea of platoon squads having the option for 2 special weapons. Makes much more sense for mechanized infantry. I also love the fact that if Valkyries and Vendettas/Vultures take up a Fast Attack FOC, you can still fit sentinels and Salamanders into your army.

These rumors sound very tight and are pretty believable. It makes the Spanish site's rumors sound like a bunch of ideas from previous revision cycles... which is to say some or all still might make it in.

Getting even more excited... better start painting some more models in anticipation.

I have to admit, it's more difficult for the IG. Because the character is tethered to a.) a command squad, and b.) being human and therefore S3 T3.

The novels aren't terrible, but there's just no one as bad-ass awesome as Marneus Calgar, Abaddon, or a Phoenix Lord in the IG army. Those guys are so cool they can take out a unit on their own. IG heroes need 4 losers to hang out wiht in order to feel adequate. It makes for poor story telling on the board.

Ironically, a character like Solar Macharius fits right in with the IG fluff! Same with Chenkov and Al-Raheem. The 2nd edition book just had the knack better,

Sadly special characters will be in any new codex coming out because it gives GW a way to allow people to customize the army by being forced to take said special character. As fantastic as the Guard army, what w/ the ability to take different doctrines, those days are surely numbered.

A lot of things to be really excited by here. 2 special weapons for my chimera squads?!?!? Yes please.

As for Cain being in?.....as long as Jurgen does have some anti-pskyer bubble I'll be tickled And here is hoping if Kane is still w/ the Last Chancers he will be billy bada$$ again, like in the books

dumbuket wrote:Finally a set of rumors that looks reasonable. That stupid BoLS nonsense was just too much. I don't care where they got their "confirmation", this looks much better to me.

I mean, just look at the old hellhound variant names. It's like a 9 year old came up with them:

Bane, Hell, Devil - Wolf, Hound, Dog... totally lame

Yes, there's no way GW would come up with such a stupid naming scheme

Personally I find some of these rumours way over the top, like the move24"-fire-everything skimmer.

Sorry kids but Kage is..



I'd much rather see Macharius return, though we've already got old man Yarrick, who is one of those iconic figures of the Imperial Guard. And we've got Jarran Kell, he's a damn good fighter plus the only guardsman to have BS5 and not be issued a pistol

lord_blackfang wrote:

dumbuket wrote:Finally a set of rumors that looks reasonable. That stupid BoLS nonsense was just too much. I don't care where they got their "confirmation", this looks much better to me.

I mean, just look at the old hellhound variant names. It's like a 9 year old came up with them:

Bane, Hell, Devil - Wolf, Hound, Dog... totally lame

Yes, there's no way GW would come up with such a stupid naming scheme

Personally I find some of these rumours way over the top, like the move24"-fire-everything skimmer.

Well, the Valkyrie isn't supposed to be a skimmer in the first place, so that could be a 40k ruling to sell the model while for apocalypse and planet strike games the model might use true flyer rules.

I may have read this wrong somewhere, but are the Cadian plastics being re-done? They can't get much worse.

I hopefully hope that the Cadian box is just the same. I hope no recuts... I just bought 2. I'm excited about the Artillery Overseer (<3 Artillery, it makes me like a giddy Japanese Schoolgirl with large breasts), Arbites Riot Team ("DIE REBEL SCUM." and the Command Squad.

~sA

BrookM wrote:"FU psyker, I stink and block psychic powers plus I has a melta"

CAN I HAZ MELTA?

- LOLJURGENS

Still no rumors on a KP fix. :(

Ozymandias, King of Kings

What?! No more Conscripts?! BOO!!!

smiling Assassin wrote:I hopefully hope that the Cadian box is just the same. I hope no recuts... I just bought 2. I'm excited about the Artillery Overseer (<3 Artillery, it makes me like a giddy Japanese Schoolgirl with large breasts), Arbites Riot Team ("DIE REBEL SCUM." and the Command Squad.

~sA

Judging by your picture I'd assume that you'd walk away from any Overseer

Ozymandias wrote:Still no rumors on a KP fix. :(

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Again, I don't think GW actually sees the IG KP issue as an issue or problem, they most likely see it as a "balance" for the Guard having so many units. Silly GW.

Or GW could already be planning to remove KP's for the 6th edition, meaning that Guard players will have to sit tight until then.

So are the Cadians and Leman russ' getting new models or just rereleases?

I'm thinking IG in the future, and want to know if I should just wait till may for the sake of a coherent army look.

BrookM wrote:Sorry kids but Kage is..

Spoiler:

dead and gone after taking Von Strab for a dive into a chasm

I refuse that last book even exist. It was complete trash. The 1st 2 books were fantastic and that last one....garbage. Hated it completely and utterly. Large plot holes and Kage getting all you know how. BS......grr

Just thought I would say that

And yes, not hearing anything else on KP is making me worry some. Mech might still be the only way to go...sigh

Or you could just play missions of your own devising.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Or you could just play missions of your own devising.

And what happens to the IG players that want to play in tournaments, or against people that might not want to go by non-standard rules just for one army? IG shouldn't have to jump through hoops and play custom missions just to have a fighting chance.

lord_blackfang wrote:Personally I find some of these rumours way over the top, like the move24"-fire-everything skimmer.

Don't forget - new model = rules that make you buy a lot of them

Fine update

Not so much "New" units, but more reliable.

Seperated the transport (valk) from the transported units (stormtroopers/vets) ?

Over on Boot Camp, Mkoll replied to some Dakka questions, so I told him I'd relate his message.

I have been over at Dakka and while I haven't made an account there I can answer some of their questions and concerns here.

What?! No more Conscripts?! BOO!!!

Well no, but at 4 points for the guardsmen the horde is alive as ever.

I hopefully hope that the Cadian box is just the same. I hope no recuts..

Same is the fact the models haven't changed but the box itself will now have 10 men and a Heavy Weapon.

Personally I find some of these rumours way over the top, like the move24"-fire-everything skimmer.

I agree, like I mentioned this is unlikely but it is something that I had gotten so it must have been talked about at one point. Right now i am simply trying to compile everything for us Guard lovers and then see what will make it.


The Kill Points issue has sadly not been adressed in any thing I have seen. And I have yet to even hear talk of it getting a fix. This is a problem I agree and I had made my feelings on the lack of something to balance it heard, however until I hear something we are stuck in the dark. My personal fix was that an IG platoon was worth 1/2 of the kill points of the total units rounding down. As such a normal platoon of 25 men would be worth 1 kill point, but add in another unit and it becomes worth 2 and so on. This would give us more KPs still but be slightly less harmful to us.

The Cadians are not getting new models just recut into a new box. However the models in the Command Squad box have some bits for a "unique" look. The Leman Russ variant box is all I know, if they redesign the tank(And I doubt it)then it may explain the later release.

Death By Monkeys wrote:
*This unit is one of the most unsure things around. Honestly GW wants it in there. The Leman Russ is EVERYWHERE the guard are, however playtesters are finding this 600ish point unit is "cheesy" If my opinion counts it will make it into the codex for fluff sake*

The bolded section has me thinking they're raising the point cost of the Leman Russ by about 30-35 points because a squad of three russes would run about 500 points by their current cost.

Maybe the standard Russ already includes sponsons and a hull weapon as a standard, this paired with the "lumbering behemoth" rule might explain a point increase.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

I hopefully hope that the Cadian box is just the same. I hope no recuts..

Same is the fact the models haven't changed but the box itself will now have 10 men and a Heavy Weapon.
The Cadians are not getting new models just recut into a new box. However the models in the Command Squad box have some bits for a "unique" look. The Leman Russ variant box is all I know, if they redesign the tank(And I doubt it)then it may explain the later release.

BOO!

Looks like I got me some "Infantry Upgrade Kits" to buy from FW. Baaah.

And I'll probably end up buying 10 command squads just to get the friggin options I want. Yuck.



On another note: 3 Commissar Special Characters? Hell yes! That is winsome/awesome. MORE Commissars!

I'm failing to see the problem w/ the Leman Russ's....it is 600pts that someone is dropping. Apparently no one saw problems(or enough people w/ various other high point cost "overpowered" units that are floating around)but the Leman Russ is just to tough? Nevermind the abudant number of things that can take it out, from Termi's to Multi-Meltas and of course Lascannons.

But yeah, it would appear due to that rumor that they will be going up in point cost

Death By Monkeys wrote:Launch Wave(Wave 1);
Codex
Primaris Psyker(2 Metal Models)
Ratling Snipers(4 Metal Models
Sentinel(Recut to contain a huge amount of options for various outfittings)
Cadian Command Squad(Officer and 4 Guardsmen. A huge box of goodies. This will contain 2 different Officer looks as well as 4 Cadians with various head, pouches and weapons. The beautiful thing here is all Special Weapons in plastic a several CC Officer weapons as well)
Valkyrie
Cadian Shock Troops
Catachan Jungle Fighters

With all the hype with new tanks and things like that, it's a damned shame that the Guard aren't getting any in their first release.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Wave 1.5
This wave is technically a multi wave of various armies being planned with Planet Strike. As such this may be before or after the 2nd wave release. This one is the most unlikely of them all and has thus far only been alluded to me by some people.
Modern Rough Riders(I cannot confirm bikes instead of horses but I have been told.....less Fantasy more gritty sci-fi)
Storm Troopers/Arbite Riot Team(I do not know if these are the same release or separate however they are plastic and will be less Kasrkin, more Imperium)
Naval Fleet Officer Adjutant(1 Model)
Artillery Overseer(1 Model)

Well I can see the plastic Stormies coming out here, along with the two Officers. Hopefully we won't have to wait a year for this...

Death By Monkeys wrote:Wave 2
Leman Russ Recut(Will include 4 variants)
Chimera Recut(Will include the Chimera, Hellhound, Salamander and various outfitting options)
Commissar Lord and Commissars(The new lord is plastic and will be released at the same time as 2 new metal models, giving us 5 metal Commissars and a plastic lord)

A Commissar Lord in plastic? Has plastic really gotten that much cheaper than metal models?

Death By Monkeys wrote:Wave 3/Unknown
These are things that are being released eventually I am told but have no exact info when. The only thing I am pretty sure on is that they will not be released at the time of the First wave.
Artillery Tank(Basilisk and 2/3 other variants. My bet is for sure Griffin and Medusa and have heard the word Manticore thrown around)
Veteran Models(Metal not sure if they are meant to be officers or Veteran soliders)

Christ... a third wave? For release when, 2011? There's 'keeping interest' and then there's 'delaying for no fething reason'.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Platoon Fire Drill
This rule will allow any platoon that is equipped with a Vox network in ALL squads to shoot through each other without granting the enemy cover saves. This will not effect each platoon as a whole as only members of the same platoon can fire through one another.
- However there is talk of how people will keep track of who is who when the game starts without conversions. As such this may be scrapped or changed to effect every unit that has a vox provided a Master Vox is taken in each Command Squad.

Yeah that does sound like a very difficult rule to keep track of from a modelling perspective. Easy for those of us who have multiple Guard types in their army (I have new Cadian, old Cadian, Mordian and Tallarn), but for anyone who's gone 'pure' with a single type, that could be a problem.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Lumbering Behemoth
Note however firing the Ordnance of any such vehicle will still not allow it to fire other weapons.

Thereby defeating the purpose of the rule... which means GW will 100% do it this way.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Advisers
Attached the Command Squad of the officer in charge are various Advisers/Aides from different factions able to assist the guard in their fight.

So these are our mandatory Generic Special Characters it seems.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Priest 45 Points - Allows the entire army, once per game to fleet and gain +1 attack and reroll all failed to hits. May only happen in the IG players turn. Must be declared in the shooting phase.

If it is failed To Hits for shooting, then he's mandatory. He will be in every army. If it is just To Hit in HTH, no one will take him.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Naval Attachment 25 Points - This close support officer is observing the battle and is able to call in pin point strikes from the might ships of the Imperium in orbit. Once per game an Orbital Bombardment may be used in the IG players shooting phase. This strike will only scatter if a HIT is not rolled, and will only scatter D6 inches.

25 points for a single Orbital Bombardment?

Death By Monkeys wrote:Artillery Observer 40 Points - Can call in long range artillery well outside the active warzone. This can be used to call up to 3 Earthshaker rounds per game, they may come in any shooting phase the IG player wishes and can all be used at once or separately. They will always scatter 2D6 inches.

40 points for a Basilisk that scatters a full 2D6 inches every turn... yeah no...

Death By Monkeys wrote:Commissar Lord 40 Points - This man can install the fear and faith into any loyal servant. This unit will allow up to 10 Commissars to be attached to the Regiment rather than the usual 5 and will be able to once per game rally any and all fleeing IG units on the table automatically.

Could be another mandatory unit if it is any and all units simultaneously.

Death By Monkeys wrote:The HQ is home to Special Characters of the IG as well as the required Field Command Platoon. Honestly the Special Characters have been flying around and there are about 18 choices with only 6 or so making it into the book. Personally I think we will see; Yarrik, Cain, Gaunt, Creed, and two or 3 of the new ones.

Ah they should include all 18, that way they can spend the next 4 years doing new 'Guard Waves' with new special character models.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Field Command Platoon.
Consists of 1 Commanding Officer or Junior Commanding Officer(Roughly a SO or HSO)with 4 guardsmen. The unit can then add up to 1 of each Adviser. Can be taken as "Grenadiers" instead of regular Guard.(Also talk of this allowing up to 3 Storm Trooper squads to be taken as troops) May take a Chimera or Salamander Command Vehicle.

Salamanders don't transport anyone, and besides, we're not getting a Salamander model until Q3 2016 in Wave 6, so what does it matter?

Death By Monkeys wrote:0-2 Veteran Squads(Replaced with Storm Troopers if the Grenadier option is taken)
0-2 Special Weapon Squads
0-2 Heavy Weapon Squads
Max of 5 Squads can be taken.

So loads of FoC swapping - Vets and Stormies move around the place. Every day the 'Chaos' Codex gets worse and worse.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Primaris Psyker. Basically the Guard version of a Space Marine Librarian. Has Guardsmen stats, but has several powers it can choose from and can purchase a hood. This has been moved between its own choice and an adviser option several times. **When I mentioned that they were not so nice I meant the model, the rules will be fun i think sorry for any confusion)**

Yay. A bad model. Here's hoping for random powers rolled after deployment.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Cadet? Commissars 0-5. These may be placed in any unit within an IG platoon. One per unit max. Do not use up an HQ choice. Also on the subject that 3 Heavy Bolter Commissar squad I have read about while very fluffy seems to be absent from anything I have seen. I am not sure if this was wishlisting that got absorbed or if I missed it.

Training Commissars did exist in the fluff back in RT. I hope they're actually worth taking and are no more than 15-20 points.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Veteran Squads(No infiltrate)

Well they rule now, and there's no model for them, so GW has nothing to sell, so they're the most obvious candidate besides the Hellhound for the nerfhamer.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Storm Trooper Squads

Prime candidate for the 'new model with crap rules' that every Codex gets one or sometimes two of.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Sniper Team - 6 Models, all armed with Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks, Stealth[This would give them Stealth twice as the Camo Cloak gives them it too.....unless they are meant to get +2 to all cover saves], Range Finders and Infiltrate.
*Also this squad has been considered to be moved as a 0-1 platoon option rather than an elite choice*

Why do these guys exist if Ratlings exist?

Death By Monkeys wrote:Ogryns, I was mistaken here. The talk is T5 or FNP not both. Well at one time it was both but it was considered to "hard" for them. Nothing much changes except that someone wants 3A 3W for the same points.

Without T5 there is no point in having them.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Ratlings - 10 Models, all with Sniper Rifles and BS 3[So I have read could change but might make our Sniper teams more elite]and Stealth.
Their old rule for being small has simply been replaced for stealth. At 10 points each they are a steal.

So they've gone down a whole point. And notice before it said that there are 4 new models... no doubt they come in blisters of 4, and are 10 per unit, meaning you need to get 3 blisters (and therefore have 2 spare) to get a full unit. I thought GW was past screwing us over with shenanigans like that.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Spearhead Sentinels - That is right Armour in out elite section! Actually not much basically just a sentinel with 3 different weapons(Lascannon, Multi Melta, Plasma Cannon and 11 front Armour) This is the one I am most unsure about. The problem is whether to include them all as Sentinels or have two entries, and if so where do the entries go.

If they're different units who cares about multiple entries.

Death By Monkeys wrote:We have only one troop choice. It is the Infantry Platoon.

Ensuring that people have to buy more models of course, rather than a single squad. And with Guardsmen now coming 10 to a box rather than 20 (no doubt at 2/3rds the cost of the original box), it just got more expensive! YAY!

Death By Monkeys wrote:2-5 Infantry Squads(4 points each, may take 2 special weapons OR 1 Special and 1 Heavy, May take Chimera)

Yeah I don't see two special weapons making it into the book.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Attachment; if all units have a Chimera then a Hellhound may be taken as part of the Platoon and not as a FA slot. If all units do not have a Chimera the squad may have a Scout Sentinel or Salamander Scout Vehicle Attached instead.

Umm... good?

Death By Monkeys wrote:-Chimeras have a wide variety of weapons including the popular Auto Cannon

Finally...

Death By Monkeys wrote:The rules are virtually identical to the ones located in the IA update-

Of couse they are. Warwick just copypasted them into his FAQ from whatever was currently written by the Dev Team at the time.

Death By Monkeys wrote:**Honestly the Vehicles that this new Spanish site has posted have never come to me. I will not say for sure they aren't real as BoLS has had confirmations on one of them**

Good. The list of vehicles was pointless - a Flamertank, a Melta tank and a Chemical Tank. Seriously, who'd spend a whole FA slot on a Chimera with a Multi-Melta?

Death By Monkeys wrote:Hellhound

Can I has nerfhammer?

Death By Monkeys wrote:Salamander Scout Vehicle

Q4 2022, Wave 30! But we won't show preview pics or even confirm a new model until a few hours before release...

Death By Monkeys wrote:Scout Sentinel (See Spearhead) - This variant would be AV 10 all around, have scout and be equipped with a Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer, Autocannon, Multi Laser or twin CC Weapons.

Twin CC weapons? So we're finally getting a proper Aliens Powerloader?

Death By Monkeys wrote:Vendetta/Vulture Gunship - 24 inch fast skimmer, may shoot all weapon no matter how fast it moves. Various loadouts

Oh for God's sake. There is a gunship version of the Valkyrie. It's called a Vulture. Why do they feel the need to invent fluff for something that's already represented. It better not be the Vendetta.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Valkyrie - 24 inch fast skimmer. May carry Storm Troopers or Veteran Squads and deploy them even after moving 24 inches.

I felt a great disturbance in the force, as if a million Eldar players whined out in terror and were then silenced. I feel something wishlisty has happened.

Death By Monkeys wrote:**Honestly the Vehicles that this new Spanish site has posted have never come to me. I will not say for sure they aren't real as BoLS has had confirmations on one of them**

Again, good. We don't need 10 different versions of the Russ in a single book, and I don't fancy waiting until Wave 40 in Q2 2160 to get the Heavy 20 Russ Cannon kit.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Leman Russ Squadron - The Squadron has AV 14 at the front. Although people claim a 13 so this could change but I have heard no such change.

AV13 would be catastrophically stupid.

Death By Monkeys wrote:This unit may ONLY be MBTs with no variants.

Hooray for arbitrary restrictions! If true this would rank up there with the super-evolved and always-mutating Tyranid race only being allowed one set of wings per army.

Death By Monkeys wrote:The Squadron does NOT act like a Squadron and the vehicles may be placed separate. The choice is a 0-1.

Is it the only place we can get Russes?

Death By Monkeys wrote:*This unit is one of the most unsure things around. Honestly GW wants it in there. The Leman Russ is EVERYWHERE the guard are, however playtesters are finding this 600ish point unit is "cheesy" If my opinion counts it will make it into the codex for fluff sake*

I thought that GW didn't care if something was cheesy as long as:

1. It had nice fluff.
2. They could sell more models.

Who cares about 'cheesyness'? Only those dirty bottom-feeding scum-sucking 'tournament players' *spits* care about power.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Leman Russ
Leman Russ Vanquisher
Leman Russ Demolisher
Leman Russ Exterminator

Plastic Exterminator could be nice.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Basilisk
Griffin
Medusa
*Medusa is a possibility*

Don't really know how I'd fit more artillery into my army. I don't think I want any...

BYE

This is all a lot better then the blatant wishlisting in that last thread. I'm sad to see ratlings and rough rider included though.

ShumaGorath wrote:This is all a lot better then the blatant wishlisting in that last thread. I'm sad to see ratlings and rough rider included though.

I see it more as a case of Catch-22. Both of these rumor lists are essentially the same kind of thing and if either comes to pass, the army will be completely boned. I think HBMC is being too optimistic about his assessments.

My 1000pt list will still be worth 19 Kill Points and unable to take objectives. My Ratlings will be getting worse, my Ogryns won't get the upgrades they desperately need, my compulsory Troops choices keep getting more and more expensive (I'll have to take a 25 man, 4-KP platoon instead of 6 Grenadiers), and so on. Against that backdrop, I could not care less how many autocannon barrels they can give a Russ or how obscene the Valkyrie rules will be. The Guard will still suck all that is donkey.

Platuan4th wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:Still no rumors on a KP fix. :(

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Again, I don't think GW actually sees the IG KP issue as an issue or problem, they most likely see it as a "balance" for the Guard having so many units. Silly GW.

This totally blows if GW REALLY doesn't think KPs are an issue. I know that a lot of people don't play these armies at tournaments, but for those of that do, it SUCKS! I really hope they give some attention to this issue.

HHHHMMMM well put H.B.M.C. If half of these are true my IG just got more toys to use. lets see about the KP

25 points for a single Orbital Bombardment?

Thats the point difference between a captain and a master of the chapter. It's what they seem to think its worth, I for one believe it's not a bad price to pay at all.

If it is failed To Hits for shooting, then he's mandatory. He will be in every army. If it is just To Hit in HTH, no one will take him.

I'm not so sure thats true. An army wide fleet +1 attack is pretty amazing, especially for 40 points.

40 points for a Basilisk that scatters a full 2D6 inches every turn... yeah no...

Ordinance shots coming out of your HQ section without being attached to a vulnerable shakeable tank. Are you just bad at this game? Thats pie.

Prime candidate for the 'new model with crap rules' that every Codex gets one or sometimes two of.

After the spat about vet squads. You are now captain contradiction. This is your title. Captain of contradictions.

Without T5 there is no point in having them.

Yeah because cheap 3 wound models with FNP are god awful.

Good. The list of vehicles was pointless - a Flamertank, a Melta tank and a Chemical Tank. Seriously, who'd spend a whole FA slot on a Chimera with a Multi-Melta?

Wasn't it a blast weapon? I'd buy that.

Can I has nerfhammer?

The rumored drop to 12" + upgrade to fast vehicle isn't exactly a nerf. At all.

Who cares about 'cheesyness'? Only those dirty bottom-feeding scum-sucking 'tournament players' *spits* care about power.

Giant squadrons of 9 russes running around with armor value 14 are better left to apocalypse, where I can never have to see them.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I felt a great disturbance in the force, as if a million Eldar players whined out in terror and were then silenced. I feel something wishlisty has happened.

Thats a sig right thar.

... and you'll take the low road.

Post self-removed due to not adding anything to the thread other than me just fighting Shummy's endless need to be contrary towards me, which none of us need to see. - H.B.M.C.

I don't know that 40pts for 3 Earthshaker rounds is too bad, even with drift. If you really can drop all of them at the same time, you could seriously wreck a cramped deployment zone, daemon drops that are close to each other, things like that. The drift is a bear, but indirect fire always drifts a full 2d6, so for 1/3(?) the price of a basilisk, you get 3/5 - 1/2 of the shooting, all at once, and a spare wound on your presumably important command squad that does not give up a KP (the model, not the squad.) That's pretty neat.

I am not so certain about the fleet officer, but a relatively accurate large blast that is (presumably) Str10 AP1 is pretty nasty, if you don't have to pick a terrain area before the game begins to key it into. If it is essentially the Marine Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment, that will be pretty sexy for the points, as again, it is another wound on the command squad. Getting 25 points back from that sort of shot shouldn't be too hard.

Granted, I am basing this on the notion that since the standard guardsmen will be so cheap, 25-65 points of extra "boom" will be easy to squeeze in. If special/heavy weapons are more expensive, or tanks go up in price, I could see armies being too tight on points for such things. Hard for me to imagine though.

H.B.M.C. wrote:A Commissar Lord in plastic? Has plastic really gotten that much cheaper than metal models?

No, but they can charge $20 for it like they do the SM Commander and the CSM Terminator Lord.

H.B.M.C. wrote:If it is failed To Hits for shooting, then he's mandatory. He will be in every army. If it is just To Hit in HTH, no one will take him.

You really think GW would make it to hits for shooting? Right.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Salamanders don't transport anyone, and besides, we're not getting a Salamander model until Q3 2016 in Wave 6, so what does it matter?

Although this makes me wonder if they'll change the Sallie rules and give them a 5-man transport capacity like the Centaur. In all the various BL guard novels, they make it sound like a Sallie can hold around that many.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yay. A bad model. Here's hoping for random powers rolled after deployment.

Actually, it sounded like you get to choose the powers for him rather than rolling randomly as it is now.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:Veteran Squads(No infiltrate)

Well they rule now, and there's no model for them, so GW has nothing to sell, so they're the most obvious candidate besides the Hellhound for the nerfhamer.

QFT.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:Sniper Team...

Why do these guys exist if Ratlings exist?

<shrug> There's a lot of folks (myself included) that feel that Ratlings are a stupid, outmoded concept and would rather play with human snipers.

H.B.M.C. wrote:So they've gone down a whole point. And notice before it said that there are 4 new models... no doubt they come in blisters of 4, and are 10 per unit, meaning you need to get 3 blisters (and therefore have 2 spare) to get a full unit. I thought GW was past screwing us over with shenanigans like that.

Are you kidding? That's practically written into their business plan.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:Hellhound

Can I has nerfhammer?

Again, QFT.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh for God's sake. There is a gunship version of the Valkyrie. It's called a Vulture. Why do they feel the need to invent fluff for something that's already represented. It better not be the Vendetta.

In principle, I agree with you, but if GW's going to release a box that can be built both as a Valkyrie and as a gunship version, the gunship will look substantially different enough from the Vulture that I can see GW not wanting to call it that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I felt a great disturbance in the force, as if a million Eldar players whined out in terror and were then silenced....

And this is a bad thing?

H.B.M.C. wrote:I thought that GW didn't care if something was cheesy as long as:

1. It had nice fluff.
2. They could sell more models.

Yes, but look at it this way. Let's say, theoretically, that you can have 3 squadrons of 3 LRBTs at ~600 points a squadron (and $90 a pop). That's 1800 points (and $270) towards a 2000 point army. Two Stormtrooper squads (at say $40 a pop each), plus a Grenadier Command Squad (at another $35) and you have an IG army for only $385! That's dirt cheap! But make it so you can only take a max of 5 Leman Russ Chassis, and that's another 800 points that you've got to fill with more expensive things.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Don't really know how I'd fit more artillery into my army. I don't think I want any...

I know I'd rather just have more Russ Chassis tanks...

ShumaGorath wrote:Yeah because cheap 3 wound models with FNP are god awful.

Ogryns have never been cheap, Ogryns will never be cheap. We're talking 35+ points per model here, I'm sure (GW will not miss a chance to raise their cost).

In a Marine army. I see it as a bit of a 'drop in the ocean' for Guard armies.

It has the same uses on the same enemies in the same way. I don't see how it's different enough to become cheaper. Just because the guard can lay down pie in addition doesn't make the orbital strike any less effective or powerful.

Except they're Guardsmen. HTH bonuses for Guard don't get taken.

Unless they're really good and not unit specific. Like this one. With rough rider, ogryns, and possibly even sentinel powerlifters being redone it could have some legs.

Oh! A personal attack. Wonderful.

If its the harshest thing anyone says you to today you should feel lucky. It was barely even an attack .

More personal attacks. Fantastic.

And my comments about Vets and Stormies are unrelated. But nice try.

I forgot, when two model sets get redone and one has good rules and the other doesn't its an intentional bid to increase sales (even when that makes no sense). Got it.

We've seen nothing about them having 3 wounds. We can assume they will retain their 3 wounds given they've had them since 2nd Ed, but we don't know that for sure especially since every rumour thread hasn't listed their wound value.

And who said anything about them being cheap?

They sit in the same cheap area that tyranid warriors sit in. More than plague marines, less than terminators. Wraithguard also sit here.

Besides, Ogryn are supposed to be tough. Dying to S8 in HTH combat makes them the opposite of tough

Yeah, if my space marine captain gets to do it so does your half slowed wrestler guy from a high gravity planet. Krak missiles and power fists are designed to kill tanks and daemons, they damn well better kill ogryn too.

What good's a blast weapon on something designed to hunt tanks?

There are these things. Lets call them terminators. They could have 2+ saves and come in squads. Lets say they tend to just sort of plop down in front of an army and sit in a clump for a turn shooting guns. Wouldn't it be great against them? It makes the gun a plasma canon/meltagun with the advantages both bring. Certainly not bad for a fast attack choice.


Also the blast makes it much harder to miss larger tanks (and about average at shooting little ones).

Where was it said they were becoming Fast vehicles?

I thought that rumor set also had them becoming fast vehicles? I could simply be mistaken here.

Anti-Apoc Elitist must be another group at Dakka, alongside the Casual Gamer Gestapo and the Counts As Brigade.

Nah, its just a relaxed tourney gamer mindset. I think a well balanced set of rules that can hold up in tournaments well work well in casual games also. throwing down 9 battlecanons, 2 orbitals, and 2 off table basilisk shots turn 1 would not work well in casual games and would be awful in tournaments.

Also a couple new notes from Mkoll confirming that:
- Sharpshooters is, indeed, gone.
- Gaunt has infiltrate and allows any Infantry Platoon to have infiltrate.
- There is/was a Harakoni special character that allowed Infantry Platoons to Drop, but it sounds like he might now be making the final cut.
- Sounds like you can make a viable Drop Troop army using Storm Troopers, but not without them.
- Mkoll speculates that GW may take out Infantry Squads getting 2 special weapons, but may allow it if the Squad gets a Chimera.

Death By Monkeys wrote:No, but they can charge $20 for it like they do the SM Commander and the CSM Terminator Lord.

Makes me sad that they'd make a plastic Commissar kit, but not a plastic Warboss kit.

Death By Monkeys wrote:You really think GW would make it to hits for shooting? Right.

Of course not, but I'm saying that this guy will either appear in every Guard army, or no Guard armies. There will be no middle ground here.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Although this makes me wonder if they'll change the Sallie rules and give them a 5-man transport capacity like the Centaur. In all the various BL guard novels, they make it sound like a Sallie can hold around that many.

If they allow it to carry 5 guys, then great! That's a wonderful idea.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Actually, it sounded like you get to choose the powers for him rather than rolling randomly as it is now.

Can't you let a man dream Monkey? Personally I'm hoping that you have to roll after deployment for what Heavy Weapon your Guard squads have!!!

Death By Monkeys wrote:<shrug> There's a lot of folks (myself included) that feel that Ratlings are a stupid, outmoded concept and would rather play with human snipers.

Which is fine... but why have two different units? GW is all about 'Counts As' (almost as much as JonnyDD) and I'm surprised that they'd make two different units to appease people who don't like Space Hobbits. Ah they're probably not getting a new model anyway, and they'll be 3 Snipers to a squad (Snipers come 2 to a blister, remember?).

Death By Monkeys wrote:Are you kidding? That's practically written into their business plan.

A while back yes, but they've made leaps and bounds away from that. Like with the Aspect Warrior boxes. They're 5 guys + Exarch, so you can buy two and have a full squad + a choice of Exarchs. It'd be far worse if it was 4 guys + Exarch, as you'd need 3 boxes to get 9 regular guys for the squad.

I still remember, years and years and years ago, when I bought some Ratlings. Found a blister with 5 of them in there rather than 4. Asked the GW staffer why that happened and he said "Sometimes they feel nice".

Death By Monkeys wrote:In principle, I agree with you, but if GW's going to release a box that can be built both as a Valkyrie and as a gunship version, the gunship will look substantially different enough from the Vulture that I can see GW not wanting to call it that.

I don't have a problem with the two looking similar.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Yes, but look at it this way. Let's say, theoretically, that you can have 3 squadrons of 3 LRBTs at ~600 points a squadron (and $90 a pop). That's 1800 points (and $270) towards a 2000 point army. Two Stormtrooper squads (at say $40 a pop each), plus a Grenadier Command Squad (at another $35) and you have an IG army for only $385! That's dirt cheap! But make it so you can only take a max of 5 Leman Russ Chassis, and that's another 800 points that you've got to fill with more expensive things.

Very good point. But be careful, certain posters around here would lable you a conspiracy theorist to even dream about GW making Codices in a way that's designed to sell the most amount of models.

Death By Monkeys wrote:I know I'd rather just have more Russ Chassis tanks...

I wouldn't! I've already got 30 (31 if you count the Bombard). I don't want any more...

BYE

ShumaGorath wrote:...2 orbitals, and 2 off table basilisk shots turn 1 would not work well in casual games and would be awful in tournaments.

From Mkoll's rumors it sounds like you could only get 1 orbital (limited to 1 Naval Adjutant giving 1 per game), but you could throw down 3 off-table Bassie shots (though limited to 1 Arty Overseer, he allows for up to 3 Bassie shots per game).

And I haven't seen in any of Mkoll's info anything about Hellhound being fast - I think that was from the Spanish rumors.

... and you'll take the low road.

Post removed due to not adding anything to the thread. - H.B.M.C.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:I know I'd rather just have more Russ Chassis tanks...

I wouldn't! I've already got 30 (31 if you count the Bombard). I don't want any more...

No, no, no...I meant I'd just rather field more Russ Chassis tanks than other arty.

Death By Monkeys wrote:- Gaunt has infiltrate and allows any Infantry Platoon to have infiltrate.
- There is/was a Harakoni special character that allowed Infantry Platoons to Drop, but it sounds like he might now be making the final cut.

Oh goody! Special Characters are now required to take an army I used to take without them.

Just as fing predicted. Well done GW. Well fing done.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:No, but they can charge $20 for it like they do the SM Commander and the CSM Terminator Lord.

Makes me sad that they'd make a plastic Commissar kit, but not a plastic Warboss kit.

Amen, brother.

I would proffer a first turn 3 shot + standard artillery + troops maxed to maximum heavy weapons +vultures might be an interesting list.

Frazzled wrote:I would proffer a first turn 3 shot + standard artillery + troops maxed to maximum heavy weapons +vultures might be an interesting list.

Me: "I'll start everything in reserves."

That was one of the better 5e changes, as it helps mitigate the alpha strike.

One thing we've not heard squat about yet: are IG officers still ICs with retinues? If not, that's 3 KP fewer, which is at least *something*. (Something that is offset by having 1/3 add'l units of men, mind you.)

Modquisition on:

Gentlemen, please argue the points not the personas.

Moquisition off.

Janthkin wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I would proffer a first turn 3 shot + standard artillery + troops maxed to maximum heavy weapons +vultures might be an interesting list.

Me: "I'll start everything in reserves."

That was one of the better 5e changes, as it helps mitigate the alpha strike.

One thing we've not heard squat about yet: are IG officers still ICs with retinues? If not, that's 3 KP fewer, which is at least *something*. (Something that is offset by having 1/3 add'l units of men, mind you.)

The flips side-if that artillery officer can hold the fire, then you're facing significant artillery when it comes in. Just thinking Baran siegemasters concepts here.

Frazzled wrote:I would proffer a first turn 3 shot + standard artillery + troops maxed to maximum heavy weapons +vultures might be an interesting list.

The one thing I keep thinking about as we get these rumors, though, is that, in a way, this doesn't solve the MSU issue currently afflicting IG. Will IG be able to have more Pie Plates? Yes, definitely. But (with the possible exception of the Vulture/Vendetta) does this change the Guard's anti-tank ability? Not really - you're still going to have to be fielding multiple fast-moving/dropping units of 2x to 3x Meltagunners to take care of tanks.

Right, are you two idiots through baiting each other already?

Oh Oh Oh, from the all the rumors IG could potentially lay down 15 templates first turn
2 orbitals, 2 off table basilisk shots, 3 Russ, and 8 templates from two manticores blowing their complete wad turn one.

Frazzled wrote:Gentlemen, please argue the points not the personas.

And to that I can say, without a single shadow of a doubt:

*puts on best 3-year-old voice*

He started it!!!

(/3-year-old's voice)

No really, he did.

BYE

Oh, boo fething hoo.

Sounds liek they are trying to mitigate the MSU problems by cranking up the number of tanks per army. So whereas you will still have cheap units, it sounds like really you'll have two platoons with infantry squads to hold objectives and mop up, but the bulk of your force will be very expensive tanks, Sentinels, and such. I don't think that you'll end up having as many KP available as you do now.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Oh, boo fething hoo.

Very well. I shall take the high road here and delete all my replies to Shummy, leaving only my commentary on the rumours.

BYE

Personally rumor wise I see a manticore more likely than a death strike, and I also see a manticore mistaken for a death strike from someone who is not too familiar with the models.

Scottywan82 wrote:Sounds liek they are trying to mitigate the MSU problems by cranking up the number of tanks per army. So whereas you will still have cheap units, it sounds like really you'll have two platoons with infantry squads to hold objectives and mop up, but the bulk of your force will be very expensive tanks, Sentinels, and such. I don't think that you'll end up having as many KP available as you do now.

Which is great if you want to buy the incredibly crappy tank models they produce, in multiples, just to build a competitive army. And even then it's essentially a toss-up, because so many armies can kill tanks so incredibly easily that all those new toys will simply evaporate like morning dew.

Personally, I believe that IG is unfixable within the context of the 5E metagame.

Scottywan82 wrote:Sounds liek they are trying to mitigate the MSU problems by cranking up the number of tanks per army. So whereas you will still have cheap units, it sounds like really you'll have two platoons with infantry squads to hold objectives and mop up, but the bulk of your force will be very expensive tanks, Sentinels, and such. I don't think that you'll end up having as many KP available as you do now.

Edit: Deleted as it was a lousy list...

Agamemnon2 wrote:Personally, I believe that IG is unfixable within the context of the 5E metagame.

Unfixable only if you completely ignore the KP issue, which, given what we've heard, GW seems to be doing. In fact, now that I think about it, all the rumours are pointing towards Guard armies actually increasing the amount of units in the army.

Now, ignoring all the usual notions of increasing an army's size to sell more models and other standard business practices that certain members regard as 'conspiracy theories', the fact that Guard armies appear to be getting bigger, with everything either coming in Squadrons or Platoons, it really does seem like GW are taking the 'Screw KP - just try to table them!' approach, by giving us overwhelming firepower to annihilate enemy force so that we don't have to worry about KP's.

Not 100% certain that that's the best course of action, plus it leads to a very one dimensional style of play/

BYE

Sounds sweet! I'm thinking of something similar, but skipping the hellhounds, dropping one set of STs, putting the other in a Valk, and adding a platoon of infantry.

foil7102 wrote:Personally rumor wise I see a manticore more likely than a death strike, and I also see a manticore mistaken for a death strike from someone who is not too familiar with the models.

That's a good point, but I can't see the Manticore being part of the main list either. GW won't want people having to remember how many shots they've fired a game (did I fire five shots or six? You feelin' lucky?) and if they're unlimited... then why take a Basilisk? Unless they make the Manticore different (ie. worse) than a Basilisk, in which case we'll have three different rulesets for a single tank.

BYE

These rumors sound pretty legit. These rumors make me happy.

In the pants.

That is all.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Now, ignoring all the usual notions of increasing an army's size to sell more models and other standard business practices that certain members regard as 'conspiracy theories', the fact that Guard armies appear to be getting bigger, with everything either coming in Squadrons or Platoons, it really does seem like GW are taking the 'Screw KP - just try to table them!' approach, by giving us overwhelming firepower to annihilate enemy force so that we don't have to worry about KP's.

The only time I've ever tabled an opponent was when they fielded an 8-Ork list against me at 500pts. Even then, it came down to blind chance, tactics had nothing to do with it.

See, now this is a lot more believable.

Yay!

I for one am looking forward to the new codex when it comes out, I've only got a small force around 1K so it shouldnt be much of a problem to fit the new toys in.

Agamemnon2 wrote:The only time I've ever tabled an opponent was when they fielded an 8-Ork list against me at 500pts. Even then, it came down to blind chance, tactics had nothing to do with it.

Hey, look, I didn't say it was a good idea. I'm just putting it forward as a possible explanation as to why we've heard nothing about GW fixing the KP problem with Guard. If there's no opposing models left to fight you at the end of your second shooting phase, then KP's are irrelevent, yes?

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Oh, boo fething hoo.

Very well. I shall take the high road here and delete all my replies to Shummy, leaving only my commentary on the rumours.

BYE

Carthage has withdrawn. The battle is won.

Death By Monkeys wrote:
playtesters

Don't worry everyone, these rumors are false! We all know that GW doesn't use playtesters. You almost had me there, too.

ShumaGorath wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Oh, boo fething hoo.

Very well. I shall take the high road here and delete all my replies to Shummy, leaving only my commentary on the rumours.

BYE

Carthage has withdrawn. The battle is won.

Every empire has to fall eventually, Caesar.

bollocks with plastic cadian riot team, i've spent stupid money on 3 enforcer necromunda team, and the army is almost done, (not happy :(, unless they have decent rules)

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Oh goody! Special Characters are now required to take an army I used to take without them.

Just as fing predicted. Well done GW. Well fing done.

BYE

Haven't you heard H.B.M.C.? That's how GW rolls now....sell you special characters so you can use things that you currently use anyways. Yippie!!!

Sgt.Roadkill wrote:bollocks with plastic cadian riot team, i've spent stupid money on 3 enforcer necromunda team, and the army is almost done, (not happy :(, unless they have decent rules)

We've seen the Arbites Riot team rules, they're in the Witch Hunter Codex, which is why they're even being made.

Any news on what might happen to the Steel legion?

I sure wish they would have redone at least one of the currently not in plastic guard variants. (With personaly preference being on Valhallans or Vostroyans.) Without those I may as well just buy the codex and skip the army. Empire Total War here I come!!! (Referencing that I was either going to buy a really big guard army or a new computer.)

JP wrote:Any news on what might happen to the Steel legion?

One of two things:

1. Every squad can get a Chimera normally, meaning there's no specialist list or rule or anything.
2. If you take Colonel Steel McLegion you can put everyone in Chimeras.

I'm leaning more towards the former, but given the most recent rumour about more army-altering special characters, who knows...

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

JP wrote:Any news on what might happen to the Steel legion?

One of two things:

1. Every squad can get a Chimera normally, meaning there's no specialist list or rule or anything.
2. If you take Colonel Steel McLegion you can put everyone in Chimeras.

I'm leaning more towards the former, but given the most recent rumour about more army-altering special characters, who knows...

BYE

Latest rounds of Mkoll's Lists seems to point to #1, however.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Just as fing predicted. Well done GW. Well fing done.
BYE

Is it just me, or does anyone else hear Christian Bale's voice when HBMC launches a diatribe?

GET OUT OF MY EYELINE!!!!!!!

BYE

ubermosher wrote:Is it just me, or does anyone else hear Christian Bale's voice when HBMC launches a diatribe?

Funny, I hear that old guy yelling at us damn kids to get off his lawn.

Platuan4th wrote:

ubermosher wrote:Is it just me, or does anyone else hear Christian Bale's voice when HBMC launches a diatribe?

Funny, I hear that old guy yelling at us damn kids to get off his lawn.

Hahaha!

ubermosher wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Just as fing predicted. Well done GW. Well fing done.
BYE

Is it just me, or does anyone else hear Christian Bale's voice when HBMC launches a diatribe?

For me, it's usually a nasally fat kid with a "Sylvester the Cat" voice.

Back on topic, I play this game for the models. I'm a bit shocked that there doesn't appear to be a "must buy" model on the release schedule. Then again, I've always struggled to understand GW's "keep all new model releases a secret" policy. I'd think that early previews would help to drum up interest in their products. In any case, it looks like a lot of changes, but very few interesting ones and no exciting models save perhaps the Valkyrie. Same crappy cadians, same boxy, ugly tanks, etc, etc. I guess not all ranges can get the same kind of love the orks did...

Platuan4th wrote:Funny, I hear that old guy yelling at us damn kids to get off his lawn.

Ungreatful kids! When I was your age we didn't even have lawns! We just had to imagine that the grass was there...

BYE

Platuan4th wrote:

ubermosher wrote:Is it just me, or does anyone else hear Christian Bale's voice when HBMC launches a diatribe?

Funny, I hear that old guy yelling at us damn kids to get off his lawn.

Who, Clint Eastwood?

Some thoughts:

-The "artillery advisers" seemed odd at first, but the more I think about it, the more sense they make. They can function as a (relatively) cheap way to get some powerful indirect fire; the more indirect fire you have, the harder it is for opponents to guarantee a win in KP missions by hiding a small unit behind terrain in their backfield.

-Making FS and AT squads count as troops is also a (minor) buff.

-I still don't really get how everything in the army can get so much cheaper; my (limited) 5th Ed. experience shows Guard to be weaker than I remember in 3rd Ed., but the rumors make it sound like I'll be gaining 200-300 "extra" points in my 1,850 list. That sounds almost broken.

-Similarly, 3 Leman Russes as one choice sounds a bit OTT, especially combined with how cheap everything else is.

-There's no mention of KP reform, but I think it's safe to assume officers won't be ICs; with no more "Last Man Standing" the original justification for turning them into ICs has been removed.

-I'm not sure what to think of a fast Hellhound with 12" range; my gut says "nerf," but it might become really helpful in contesting objectives.

-I'm sad to see no return of the Rapier / Thudd Gun. (But I guess I can continue putting 6 guys around them and using them as "count as" AT Squads.)

I just want really cool Fleet/Orbital Officer models. Maybe they'll even do a new Priest.

BYE

Assuming we have a 15-20% points reduction overall, that would probably go a long way toward making Guard competitive in the current environment, considering how Ork Boyz got so much cheaper as well.

I wonder how the various weapon options will go. For example, if 10 IG go from 60 pts to 40 pts, but Heavy and Special each gain +10 pts in cost, we've really gained nothing at all.

Similarly, the Valkyrie would be OK at ~90 pts, but if it's 200 pts, like a Falcon, that's a non-starter, too.

Depends on whether GW decides to make Plasma Guns 15 and Lascannons 30 in Guard Squads. I would like to believe they won't, but it is still within the realm of possibility.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:Depends on whether GW decides to make Plasma Guns 15 and Lascannons 30 in Guard Squads. I would like to believe they won't, but it is still within the realm of possibility.

If the delta between las/plas and ML/GL gets high enough, we'll all end up playing Mauleed-pattern IG. *sigh* I don't own that many Steel Legion MLs, and never did have any for my Mordian/Praetorian coalition.

my money says the point cost of weapons goes up. because that's how GW rolls, other then that the idea of "off table" indirect sounds pretty good no one popping your bassie

skullspliter888 wrote:my money says the point cost of weapons goes up. because that's how GW rolls, other then that the idea of "off table" indirect sounds pretty good no one popping your bassie

They can just pop your T3 Model instead.

Platuan4th wrote:

Sgt.Roadkill wrote:bollocks with plastic cadian riot team, i've spent stupid money on 3 enforcer necromunda team, and the army is almost done, (not happy :(, unless they have decent rules)

We've seen the Arbites Riot team rules, they're in the Witch Hunter Codex, which is why they're even being made.

bollocks those rules are just storm troopers with shotguns the arbites are far mor than that, whether its executioner shells, riot shields, shock mauls, or specialist grenade round if you think they are just storm trooopers with shotguns i suggest reading some of their background (the shira calpurnia stuf + NightBringer)

10 to 1 the Storm Troopers / Arbiters kit is made up of Kasrkin with the option of using shotguns instead of hellguns. I wouldn't count on them being generic enough, Cadians are the new generic in terms of Guard presentation.

Dexy wrote:

skullspliter888 wrote:my money says the point cost of weapons goes up. because that's how GW rolls, other then that the idea of "off table" indirect sounds pretty good no one popping your bassie

They can just pop your T3 Model instead.

True but if he is behind a hill with a squad a little harder to get at

So, Valks take up a F/A slot rather than being a transport option and Vultures (if IG get them) also take up a F/A slot.

So Elysians are out of the question, then...

Chimera_Calvin wrote:So Elysians are out of the question, then...

Don't worry, you can take Sky Marshal Elly Sian, Codename 'Vulture', as a special character (due Q2 2016 in Wave 9.5) that will allow Valkyries as Troops!

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Chimera_Calvin wrote:So Elysians are out of the question, then...

Don't worry, you can take Sky Marshal Elly Sian, Codename 'Vulture', as a special character (due Q2 2016 in Wave 9.5) that will allow Valkyries as Troops!

BYE

Next time you use that variant I'm going to have to charge you for it.

If there won't be a special character you can always look to IA 3 & 4 for Elysian goodness.

Am I starting to detect the merest hint of sarcasm from you, HBMC??

Unless you take Red Baron as your HQ choice which enables you to switch Chimeras for Valks

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Am I starting to detect the merest hint of sarcasm from you, HBMC??

Perish the thought. Sarcasm leads to idleness. And we all know what idleness leads to...

BYE

Yet another army bought, assembled and painted?

Heresy! Idleness always leads to Heresy because Heresy grows from idleness!

BYE

Platuan4th wrote:

ubermosher wrote:Is it just me, or does anyone else hear Christian Bale's voice when HBMC launches a diatribe?

Funny, I hear that old guy yelling at us damn kids to get off his lawn.

Did someone call me? Oh wait, never mind.

The one thing I keep thinking about as we get these rumors, though, is that, in a way, this doesn't solve the MSU issue currently afflicting IG. Will IG be able to have more Pie Plates? Yes, definitely. But (with the possible exception of the Vulture/Vendetta) does this change the Guard's anti-tank ability? Not really - you're still going to have to be fielding multiple fast-moving/dropping units of 2x to 3x Meltagunners to take care of tanks.

Remember though that barrage weapons hit side armor when resolving damage. So meltaguns a plenty won't be that necessary if you are spamming barrage plates.

Capt K

Frazzled wrote:

Oh, so THAT'S what Heavy 20 looks like...

Sgt.Roadkill wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Sgt.Roadkill wrote:bollocks with plastic cadian riot team, i've spent stupid money on 3 enforcer necromunda team, and the army is almost done, (not happy :(, unless they have decent rules)

We've seen the Arbites Riot team rules, they're in the Witch Hunter Codex, which is why they're even being made.

bollocks those rules are just storm troopers with shotguns the arbites are far mor than that, whether its executioner shells, riot shields, shock mauls, or specialist grenade round if you think they are just storm trooopers with shotguns i suggest reading some of their background (the shira calpurnia stuf + NightBringer)

I never said they were real Arbites, I said we'd seen the rules they're going to have. Mkoll(and other sources) have already said that the shotties are only in the plastic Storm Trooper kit because Witch Hunter "Arbite" Stormies can get Shotguns. Trust me, I know what real Arbites are like.

Platuan4th wrote:I never said they were real Arbites, I said we'd seen the rules they're going to have. Mkoll(and other sources) have already said that the shotties are only in the plastic Storm Trooper kit because Witch Hunter "Arbite" Stormies can get Shotguns. Trust me, I know what real Arbites are like.

Tru dat. I've come to accept the fact that GW has abandoned any real use for Arbites - my life is happier because of it.

I wonder if the Salamander won't hold up to 10 men to leave space for the advisors you can take with your command squad.

Has anyone had any luck recently with scouting sentinels getting side armor shots on enemy tanks? If put together solidly, I could see an IG list really forcing enemy armor to stay close to the center and far back to avoid that turn 2-3 flank move. Unless sentinels get competition from undercosted heavy weapon units I suppose.

Either way, I need to start saving some scratch for this new army. The IRS really executed some well placed auto penetrating attacks on my behind...

I definitely forsee myself getting a LOT more armor after this book comes out. Yeah, I'll be picking up 4 new command squads and a couple of recut infantry squads, but that will mostly be just to totally plastic-ize my IG forces. Almost everything else I'll be getting is tanks and sentinels.

I'm holding out judgement on the Ogryns until some finalized rules are leaked.

All-in-all, I just can't wait until May!

I have had luck w/ Scouting Sentinels...but I am not going to lie. I have only used them at 1k, and 2 of em do alright for me. No real complaints....

And I think the book is lending itself to just that Scotty. More armour...that's what people love, and what GW knows will/should sell well. I too must add more thanks now that I have 150+ IG guys running around, begging to be painted. Ogryns.....I don't know. I do rather like the newer models they have for them but do not know if they will make the cut for my army even if they do get a nice boost

I can't wait to see the actual contents of the Cadian command sprues, if there's a swagger stick and fancy officer armour included I will have to use them and create a fancy commanding Baneblade commander.

Scottywan82 wrote:I definitely forsee myself getting a LOT more armor after this book comes out. Yeah, I'll be picking up 4 new command squads and a couple of recut infantry squads, but that will mostly be just to totally plastic-ize my IG forces. Almost everything else I'll be getting is tanks and sentinels.

I'm holding out judgement on the Ogryns until some finalized rules are leaked.

All-in-all, I just can't wait until May!

I think that H.B.M.C. is the only one of us not getting more tanks.

I think that GW may have addressed the KP fix and you guys just missed it. Among the listed HQ choices there is one tiny little name that under a new ruleset could easily make KP's moot and his presence manditory. Creed, Ursakar E. Creed.

Okay, kids - more responses from Mkoll to Dakka's questions over on Boot Camp:

To answer some more of Dakka Dakka's members questions here we go.

1) The weapon costs are roughly balanced. Grenade Launchers and Flamers are both 5 Points while the Melta is 10 and sadly yes the Plasma is 15(Fluffwise Guard regiments often lack these weapons) The Heavy Weapons weigh in at Heavy Bolter and Stubber at 5, Mortar and Autocannon and Missile Launcher at 10 and Lascannon at 15.

2) The Arbite Riot Teams have no rules in the IG codex, as such I cannot comment on what they will entail sorry. All I am told is there will a boxset for them. I think it will be the Storm Trooper box with extra bits but as I posted in my release I am not for sure on it, they could be separate.

3) When I say less Kasrkin more Imperium I mean just that. They do not have the Cadian look and Armour style and have some throwbacks to the Special Forces of 3rd Edition. However that is just 1 of the greens I have seen.

4) In my list the Valk does indeed take up a FA slot always, however I know that isn't quite right and I think that the idea that Storm Troopers will get them as Transport options is likely. However normal guard getting them as an option seems very slim.

5) The amount of releases. As those who play various GW games and armies may know GW works on a wave release system. Often a new army will only have an initial release and then another one. However some armies(Empire, Orcs and Dwarves WFB being the main and the Orks in 40K)have had several. This seems to be how the guard will work out. Please note the Planet Strike will give all armies a few new toys and thus be a full out release not a guard wave. This leaves us with 2(including initial) or 3 max, which doesn't seem to bad at all.

6) The Salamander cannot hold men, however it has been talked about giving it a 5 man hold to allow a Command Squad to use it more. The option for it currently is to add some cheap fire support to your squad and protect them. I think that a transport option is likely though.

7) Yes Armour seems to be the focus of the new codex. While Infantry will be very useful(provided Kill Points is fixed)GW is screaming buy or armour it is cool! I am not sure what this will lead to in the final product(maybe all those Spanish Tanks will make it.....)but Infantry is to me still the backbone of an IG army.

Hmmm those point costings are good. I am liking the sound of it.

Well, it's a good thing I hardly have any plasmas then. Guess I'll just use more flamers and meltas instead.

Personally I hope they do what they got right in the Ork Codex. The army should be able to win using it's background tactics. If they do this I will be happy.

Mkoll, if you're out there, thank you for all this work!

Lucky you BrookeM! I happen to have about 15 metal plasma dudes and I greatly enjoy watching them blow themselves up! Upping the price on plasma guns held by models with a 5+ save kinda makes me mad. They are balanced out cost wise because they never seem to make their Gets Hot save. I can't help myself from getting started on the logic behind the 'Fluffwise, IG don't typically have alot of plasma' argument because their is so much variation in the naure of IG! I have LR's with plasma turrets for sake! If there is a squad in my army that dosen't have a plasma gun in it it's only because they rock the meltaguns! Why should my army be defined as low-tech AND the most variable force in known existence?

Death By Monkeys wrote:1) The weapon costs are roughly balanced. Grenade Launchers and Flamers are both 5 Points while the Melta is 10 and sadly yes the Plasma is 15(Fluffwise Guard regiments often lack these weapons) The Heavy Weapons weigh in at Heavy Bolter and Stubber at 5, Mortar and Autocannon and Missile Launcher at 10 and Lascannon at 15.

Wait, what? Heavy Stubber?

Because those warrior eunuchs are the favourites of the Imperium and much like any favoured child, get the best stuff. Thus leaving the leftovers for the rest of the family.

Screw those posers, we got the tanks.

Part of this is junk. A heavy stubber would not cost the same as a heavy bolter. Not unless it's "assault 3" instead of heavy 3.

Am I incorrect or are lascannons, HB's, and missile launchers going down in price?

My one question to MKoll would be: What does the Vulture and Valkyrie cost point wise?? The same as in the Forge World books? Less? More? That's the main think on my mind.

Thanks,
Chappy P!

15 pts for a Plasma Gun?

On a BS4 T4 Sv3+ Marine that fights up close, 15 pt Plasma makes sense. But on a BS3 T3 Sv5+ Guardsman? No way. That's slowed.

___

Janthkin wrote:If the delta between las/plas and ML/GL gets high enough, we'll all end up playing Mauleed-pattern IG. *sigh* I don't own that many Steel Legion MLs, and never did have any for my Mordian/Praetorian coalition.

I'm pretty much all MLs already, and I just picked up some Mortars, so I'll be OK. What I worry about is Las/ML becoming too high relative to the squad base itself. And if Plasma/Melta also becomes prohibitive, that's going to be a real problem.

At that point, I have no real need for Guardsmen except as Scoring bodies. So full-Mech, never open the hatch, never disembark. Lame.
____

Chimera_Calvin wrote:So, Valks take up a F/A slot rather than being a transport option and Vultures (if IG get them) also take up a F/A slot.

So Elysians are out of the question, then...

I think Command HQ and Storms could have Valks as Transport options, but I wouldn't expect it for anyone else.

Elysians should probably move to become Stormtroopers rather than ordinary Guardsmen.
____

Scottywan82 wrote:I definitely forsee myself getting a LOT more armor after this book comes out.

All-in-all, I just can't wait until May!

As I already have plenty of armor, I probably won't be getting much more - just enough to finish a Basilisk Battery for Apoc. If the Medusa appears, I might add one of those, too.

But I tell you this: 15-pt Plasma is cooling my enthusiasm for the new book.

____

BrookM wrote:Well, it's a good thing I hardly have any plasmas then. Guess I'll just use more flamers and meltas instead.

I have about a dozen Plasma, and they're non-convertible metal models.

Elysians should become storm troopers?

Oh no no no no..

Elysians are just regular Guardsmen that fall from the sky, nothing elite about them. I'd say read up IA3 but hardly anybody wants to shelf out money for that one..

Death By Monkeys wrote:1) The weapon costs are roughly balanced. Grenade Launchers and Flamers are both 5 Points while the Melta is 10 and sadly yes the Plasma is 15(Fluffwise Guard regiments often lack these weapons) The Heavy Weapons weigh in at Heavy Bolter and Stubber at 5, Mortar and Autocannon and Missile Launcher at 10 and Lascannon at 15.

.

Points are almost spot on to what I guessed they would be, though I actually had the stubber in the special section, there is absolutly no reason to take a stubber over a heavy bolter unless they make it more shots. like heavy 6, or 2 of them for 5 points .

The increase in price for plasma is a little surprising, BS 3 and 5+ save means they kill themselves alot compared to a marine, but its really a non issue with the fact a normal squad of guardmen is 40 points now instead of 60. Auto cannons and missle launchers are 10 points so a 5 point drop from now ( a good call on the missle launcher), I had the Las-cannon at 20 points , but 15 is even better and is actually a 10 point drop. I know my favored squad set up currently is the ten guys (60) plasma (10) and an auto cannon (15)- so that squad is 85 points, the same set up under the new suspected costs is only 65, thats 20 points off the cost.

I think the 5 point Grenade launcher is fair( if only the krak shot was ap3 , or the whole thing was assault 2), as is the 10 point melta ( maybe, the range makes it iffy at 10 points), but I honestly feel with guard they should of just given them a flamer for free, low armor 1 attack troops aren't going to really do much with a flamer really. A single mortar is a squad is kinda pants for 10 points really should be only 5 as it competes well with a bs3 heavy bolter , not so much agianst a bs3 auto cannon of missle launcher.

Now if we use the current book as a guide( might not be a good idea considering the marine changes) all the weapons were the same price every where.
that means the heavy weapons squads with 3 las cannons will only be 85 points ( 10 guys even) the current version is 110 and only 6 guys. This means the special weapon squads will be even nicer, 70 points for a squad with 3 meltas, well plus the 55 to 65 points for the chimera ( which is also a 30 some points savings).

The big question I have is if the platoon officer squads and the company officer squads will still be able to take heavy weapons, I kinda like my little 5 man las-cannon teams, or as my group calls them, " The commanders sniper rifle".

I'm pleased w/ the point cost for the weapons and yes I do run plasma in a lot of my squads. Sure the extra 5 points isn't that great but almost every other weapon got cheaper! What isn't to love about that?!?! 5 points more for PG - 2 point drop in IG cost = your still doing better than what we had. i'll take it w/ a smile

If the Mortar is getting considerably better, then 10 pts is fair.

Death By Monkeys wrote:sadly yes the Plasma is 15(Fluffwise Guard regiments often lack these weapons)

Mother fker.

Although I usually don't use expressions like this, if true, this will truly be an EPIC FAIL on GW's part. I have always said that if something is rare, then you make it rare. You don't just make it more expensive. Expensive does not equal rare. Expensive just equals expensive.

The Plasma Gun is not worth 15 points on a BS3 model with a 5+ save. It just isn't. How can you pay the same cost for a Plasma Gun that you do on a fing Marine! It's absurd.

And as people said, if the Stubber and the HB are the same as they are now, and both cost 5 points, then there's no point in bringing the Stubber. Why would you pay the same cost for a gun with less Strength and less AP? It has to be Assault 3 to be worthwhile.

2) The Arbite Riot Teams have no rules in the IG codex, as such I cannot comment on what they will entail sorry. All I am told is there will a boxset for them. I think it will be the Storm Trooper box with extra bits but as I posted in my release I am not for sure on it, they could be separate.

This whole plastic Arbite thing doesn't ring true to me at all. Why would GW release a plastic kit which is basically just an alternative set of weapons for a single choice in a single Codex when they could just include shotguns in the plastic stormy kit and be done with it?

Death By Monkeys wrote:3) When I say less Kasrkin more Imperium I mean just that. They do not have the Cadian look and Armour style and have some throwbacks to the Special Forces of 3rd Edition. However that is just 1 of the greens I have seen.

Which is sad as the Kasrkin are such lovely models. My only thought is that they'll keep Kasrkin on sale at the same time as the new plastic Stormies.

4) In my list the Valk does indeed take up a FA slot always, however I know that isn't quite right and I think that the idea that Storm Troopers will get them as Transport options is likely. However normal guard getting them as an option seems very slim.

You mean there isn't a Captain Thor Norse special character (due Q3 2028, Wave 11.2) who allows you to take a 'Flight of the Valkyries' army where Guard squads can take Valks as standard?

This leaves us with 2(including initial) or 3 max, which doesn't seem to bad at all.

Which would be fine if they were doing it in a way that made sense. I have supported this wave idea since day one as I think it's a good way of maintaining interest and ensuring that all the new releases for an army aren't dumped on new players in the space of a month leaving them with nothing new for 4 years (or longer). But the way GW is going about it is just horrible:

1. We don't know when a wave is coming until a month or so before it hits.
2. We don't know what will ever be in a wave until a month or so before it hits.
3. We don't know if anything left out of a second wave (looking at Ork Buggies and Flash Gitz as examples) will ever be made.

It's one thing to stagger releases to keep interest up. It's another to keep players in the dark about whether you're even going to make a miniature for a Codex entry or not. I'd take a 5 year drought of releases and support to ensure that we got everything in the Codex upon release and in one go than a more balanced approach to releases where we never know what's going on.

6) The Salamander cannot hold men, however it has been talked about giving it a 5 man hold to allow a Command Squad to use it more. The option for it currently is to add some cheap fire support to your squad and protect them. I think that a transport option is likely though.

I hope it does get a transport option for the Command Squad.

7) Yes Armour seems to be the focus of the new codex.

Which just makes the lack of armour releases in the first wave all the more perplexing, unless it's a cynical way for GW to clear old stock while people scramble to buy new tanks only for them to release shiny new re-cut kits with new turret and artillery options in Waves 4, 8, 11 and 42.

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:If the Mortar is getting considerably better, then 10 pts is fair.

S5 AP5 Ignores Cover Saves would be a great start.

But it won't.

BYE

*gasp*, our heavy weapons might actually cost what they should.

I like what I'm hearing.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
And as people said, if the Stubber and the HB are the same as they are now, and both cost 5 points, then there's no point in bringing the Stubber. Why would you pay the same cost for a gun with less Strength and less AP? It has to be Assault 3 to be worthwhile.

Aside from allowing LatD players from having it here to allow them to use their armies, my thought is there maybe more to it. Maybe platoons with infiltrating or scout can only take certain heavy weapons.

The heavy stubber might be twin-linked? Isn't it twin-linked in the Death Korps list?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Well if priced as rumored the las plas combo just dropped a net 5 points plus any cost of troopers. Thats not bad.

Absent a confirm, the stubber may be an assault weapon. Inverely it might be classed as a special weapon such that a squad could be outfitted with both HB and stubber. Just thinking out loud here.

If the HS is "Heavy", then it needs to be twin-linked to be at all useful.

But really, the HS should be a 5-pt Special Weapon so you can throw 6 shots downrange.

Ozymandias wrote:The heavy stubber might be twin-linked? Isn't it twin-linked in the Death Korps list?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Yes, on their army list (siege army) it costs 10 pts.

More responses direct to Dakka from Mkoll:

Well right now the "Command Vox" is 15 Points per command squad, while the Troop Vox is 5 points.

The Heavy Stubber is a Troop Weapon as well as a Vehicle upgrade. Personally I think the Stubber will stay at 5 and the Bolter will move to 10 so that the Stubber is cheapest yet weakest.

For Dakka's Kungfuhustler,

Well in reality the Plasma is a rare tech in the Imperium. Ryza is one of only a few Forge Worlds where the tech is still able to be made. As such even new Regiments from a high tech world would be equipped with Flamers, Meltas and Grenade Launchers more often. These might look more advanced and sleeker but would still be them in general. Also remember that sure a Plasma Gun does cost 15 points but the kill of a single marine killed makes up the cost easily enough. So use your Plasma they are still balanced and will do enough damage to be worth their points.


He also responded to a question on Boot Camp thusly:

Ratling Joe wrote:Surely though the extra 5 points for a heavy bolter over a stubber makes the Heavy Bolter the best choice every time?

I cant see why you wouldnt spend a extra 5 points to get the bolter, unless you played a squad heavy horde army.

Maybe its just me being dim.

Well 5 points does add up. Plus think about it you only lose a Strength and some AP by saving 5 points. So this will make the choice, plus some people love the idea and looks of Stubbers my Traitor Guard are one of them.


In a further post, he states:
So some interesting Info. I do NOT work for GW in any sense. All right there I said it. I do however have various soruces obviously. This is the reason I can release such info. If I worked for GW I would more likely have up to the date info and then not be allowed to share it so much.

I received my WIP's in mid NOVEMBER. Now I have had a few changes and updates thrown my way and and such I have done my best to mix it in. However the fact remains that my info could be very wrong. As some of you may know I do keep up to date on alot of releases especially when my Guard are involved. Those who remember the Apoc rumour roundup I had to keep doing will especially know this to be true and I was spot on about those everytime. Keep this in mind though I am working with some rather older material and some newer.

Posters on Warseer claim to have seen the completed English codex and I cannot say they haven't. I can tell you that the people whom I talk to about such things have not thrown me such a bone. As such my advice is to take everything you read with some serious salt.

There is a chance my contact is wrong and the codex is in full print already. And as such the other rumours are more true. Please keep in mind though what I am posting for you are simply that, rumours. They are not facts just things I have seen or heard.

I pray that my info is quite close because I have seen some potential for a great army from the stuff I have, however it is lacking some key components such as an "Order" system that appears to have been confirmed by someone in or very close to GW.

I thank you all for the questions and I am doing my best to answer them with the info I have, but do not take my answer as the gods honest word and think that because I said it, it will happen. Take time to read BoLS, Warseer, Dakka and here because that will IMO give you a better sense of what to expect.

There's also a lot of discussion over on Boot Camp about how you'll no longer be able to field an entire army of non-Storm Troopers in carapace - there's quite a hubbub about it. As no one here's making a big deal about it, though, I'll save you Mkoll's comments on it.

Ug.. I just priced out what may be my new death korps (counts as IG) list based loosely upon these rumors... I'm going to have to sell one of my cars to pay their prices! oh well, I have more than enough cars!

Actually I'd take those comments as well.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Also remember that sure a Plasma Gun does cost 15 points but the kill of a single marine killed makes up the cost easily enough. So use your Plasma they are still balanced and will do enough damage to be worth their points.

No. They won't. Ever.

They're worth 8 points on a Guardsmen. 10 points for the gun plus a 2 point price break due to the fact that they can kill the user. Same as how Plasma Guns on Marines are worth 10 (15 for the gun and a 5 points price break because it can kill them, and Marines are worth more than a Guardsman when killed by their own weapons). Anything that can kill the user should get a price break. And I'm sick of these fluff justifications used to explain high prices. The rules should be balanced against themselves, not against the fluff. If something is useless but rare you don't jack the price up due to its scarcity.

Things should be worth their cost, or cost their worth. It's a very simple rule to follow.

BYE

The mortar was ten points before and already a questionably choice. At ten points again after a nearly across the board points cut and apparent change in the support squad structure it becomes even more a niche weapon. Unless the stats change, of course.

A ten point drop on lascannon points would be quite welcome, and the five point drop on missiles and autocannon too. That's a proportionate 2/5-1/3 off, which would keep prices proportionately in line (or slightly better in case of lascannon) with 4 point guardsmen. If they kept upgrade prices the same or even increased them that would increase the temptation to run unupgraded guardsmen, which would mean they'd sell fewer heavy weapon boxes.

Special weapons barely changed, didn't change, or increased. Two special weapons come with the troops box, while the other two are still in metal. The guys who sprung for metal plasmas must be pissed, but I stuck to the infantry box specials so this doesn't affect me much.

If these rumors are true then I'll still be able to run more or less the army I was before. No clear solution to the KP problem, but then they also didn't smash the whole organizational structure of the Guard army in an attempt to fix it.

I fully agree with you HMBC. The thought of carapace armor hadn't even crossed my feeble caffeine ridden brain yet but now that it's been brought up the idea isn't a bad one at all. +20 pts per squad for carapace armor is MUCH more appealing now with the 20 pt decrease for guard squads. I hope they keep it just so I can play around with it. The idea of not having my dog-troops shredded by standard issue guns and costing the same as they do now is really appealing!

Raxmei wrote:The guys who sprung for metal plasmas must be pissed...

*checks collection*

Lessee... 8 NuCadian Plasmas, 8 old Cadian Plasmas, 4 Tallarn Plasmas and 8 Kasrkin Plasma Guns.

Hey. I could be worse. I could have AUD$1200 worth of Daemons that were made incompatible with my Chaos Army... oh wait...

BYE

Raxmei wrote: Two special weapons come with the troops box, while the other two are still in metal. The guys who sprung for metal plasmas must be pissed

Are you suggesting that plasma guns will come in the standard infantry squad box, or, in the command box or in both? If they come in the infantry squad box that would ALMOST stop me from stocking up on the current IG infantry 20 packs... almost because I realize that the 10 man w/ heavy weapon team set is still a rip.

Purportedly, yes, the new 10 man squads have all 4 special weapon types. As do the command squads.

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Raxmei wrote: Two special weapons come with the troops box, while the other two are still in metal. The guys who sprung for metal plasmas must be pissed

Are you suggesting that plasma guns will come in the standard infantry squad box, or, in the command box or in both? If they come in the infantry squad box that would ALMOST stop me from stocking up on the current IG infantry 20 packs... almost because I realize that the 10 man w/ heavy weapon team set is still a rip.

I was talking about the current infantry packs, which come with grenade launchers and flamers. I haven't been keeping up on the miniatures rumors.

WTH is this notion that Plasma is "rare"?

The only reason Plasma is "rare" is that the Impeium doesn't arm every Guardsman with one as their standard weapon.

Plasma isn't Dark Age of Technology archeotech.

Plasma is downright common when you get down to looking at it in any rational sense.

I seriously doubt that forgeworld Ryza is the only plasma weapon producer and if the case is that plasma guns come in your standard infantry squad packages we can throw any basis for rarity out the window. I understand that my las/plas squads are going to be cheaper, but with over-costed equipment they will remain inferior, any way you look at it, to shoota boyz.

This might be the only time I ever do this, but:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The only reason Plasma is "rare" is that the Impeium doesn't arm every Guardsman with one as their standard weapon.

QFT.

But let me qualify the above notation of QTF-ness by stating that I've been saying the same thing for years. Here Jonnyboy just said it first.

BYE

Flamer < Melta < Plasma
So since they want to have all the costs in 5-pt increments, 15 is the least a Plasma Gun can cost.

Unless you want to pay 5 pts more for the basic squad and 5 pts less for the upgrades, which is how SM Tactical Squads work.

Personally I'd rather have the basic unit cheaper. Swarms FTW.>

In that case, Flamer should be "FREE" (i.e. included in squad cost).

You say its rare because IG doesn't arm every guardsmen with one. GW would say because its rare they can't afford to. Its a semantic argument that ignores the simple fact the technology is either too costly or too rare across the imperium to equip more than a small fraction of guardsmen with them.

My suggestion for new codex: All guardsmen have carapice armor and plasma guns.

Result, fluff-wise: all other races exterminated. Praise the Emprah!

aka_mythos wrote:You say its rare because IG doesn't arm every guardsmen with one. GW would say because its rare they can't afford to. Its a semantic argument that ignores the simple fact the technology is either too costly or too rare across the imperium to equip more than a small fraction of guardsmen with them.

No more rare than any other Special Weapon, judging by who can take it. If they actually wanted to represent it as rare, they'd limit who could take it(HQs, Vets, Stormies only instead of every normal Joe McSpecial Weapon), not slap some ridiculous cost on the thing. You know, like different Bolt Rounds(Marine HQs, Sternguard, Thousand Sons).

lord_blackfang wrote:Flamer < Melta < Plasma

False. The three weapons have nothing to do with one another other than all being special weapon options.

The first one hunts light infantry and hordes. The second one hunts vehicles. The third hunts heavy infantry. These are three completely different roles, and they should be costed according to their roles (rather than comparatively).

The Meltagun is one of the most consistent anti-tank guns in the game. Given how difficult vehicle in cover are to kill in 5th, they are certainly worth all 10 points you spend on them. But Plasma Guns are not an upgrade to the Meltagun. You don't gain the benefits of the Meltagun plus whatever the Plasma Gun gives you, so you shouldn't pay more. I know getting people to agree with my 8 point idea will never happen, so at the very most the Plasma Gun is worth 10.

It actual fact it should go like this:

Flamer < Heavy Flamer
Meltagun < Multi-Melta
Plasma Gun < Plasma Cannon

... as the three weapons are unrelated to one another.

The costs and stats of Guard weapons in the end should be:

Flamer - 5 Points
Template S4 AP5 Assault 1
Grenade Launcher - 5 Points
R36 S3/6 AP6/4 Assault 1
Plasma Gun - 10 Points
R24 S7 AP2 Rapid Fire/Gets Hot!
Meltagun - 10 Points
R12 S8 AP1 Assault 1/Melta

This way each weapon is different, each weapon has a defined role, and each weapon has a cost appropriate for its role, not a comparative cost based upon the one 'under' it.

BYE

As I (and many others) see it, that "small fraction" is about 20%:
- 4 out of 4 guys in every command squad, then
- 1 out of every 10 line guardsmen.
total of 6+ out of 25 per platoon is roughly 20%.

Plat addresses the rest of the issue nicely, thanks Plat.

JohnHwangDD wrote:As I (and many others) see it...Plat addresses the rest of the issue nicely, thanks Plat.

Notice how he says 'many others' when here I right am, in this very thread, agreeing with him, fighting on his side of the argument. He cannot acknowledge my presence, because then he'd have to admit to reading my posts, and his ego simply couldn't take that. He even goes so far as to thank someone else to further hide it.

Amazing.

BYE

How I'd love to re-enact the first Saw movie with the two of you chained together.

Oh lord have mercy...

BrookM wrote:How I'd love to re-enact the first Saw movie with the two of you chained together.

Even if decided to take Jigaw up on his offer and kill DD in order to save my own skin, DD still wouldn't die, because if he died he'd have to admit that I exist.



[EDIT]: Anyway, enough of that. I apologise for an attempted derailment. Back to Guard.

Someone in the Plastic Valk thread said that they'd seen it in comparison to the FW resin Valk. I mean, I know it's been confirmed in WD, but it's nice to hear from someone who's actually seen it.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrookM wrote:How I'd love to re-enact the first Saw movie with the two of you chained together.

Even if decided to take Jigaw up on his offer and kill DD in order to save my own skin, DD still wouldn't die, because if he died he'd have to admit that I exist.

BYE

Wait, forget that. You two need to star together in a buddy cop movie.

BrookM wrote:Wait, forget that. You two need to star together in a buddy cop movie.

Maybe 40K Radio should book them both for the same night as a comedy act...

One's a cynical old grump.

The other lives in his own reality.

But together they are a force of nature.

HBMC and DD are:

Alphabet Soup - Coming to Theatres in Q2, 2016, Wave 11.

BYE

As guests to help overview the new guard codex. lulz

So how much are you really saving between the points costs of the old and new? I doubt it's enough to make drastic changes despite the OMG 40 POINT SQUADS!!!1 In addition to the plasma cost, IG squads now require full vox networks and who knows what else in order to do what they currently do. Nevermind if the Valk becomes the required troop transport for some reason (new plastic kit perhaps?).

You say its rare because IG doesn't arm every guardsmen with one. GW would say because its rare they can't afford to. Its a semantic argument that ignores the simple fact the technology is either too costly or too rare across the imperium to equip more than a small fraction of guardsmen with them.

No if it's "rare" in the way GW claims it is, they'd make it a 0-X option for every platoon instead of increase the cost.

stonefox wrote:So how much are you really saving between the points costs of the old and new? I doubt it's enough to make drastic changes despite the OMG 40 POINT SQUADS!!!1 In addition to the plasma cost, IG squads now require full vox networks and who knows what else in order to do what they currently do. Nevermind if the Valk becomes the required troop transport for some reason (new plastic kit perhaps?).

The point cost saving is actually pretty good, even with bull$hit 15 point Plasma Guns. A Las/Plas Squda would be 70 points, which is 25 points less (the cost of the current Lascannon) than before.

You are right about the additionals though. If a Vox becomes required for them not to trip over their own feet, and then you have to buy other things, then the savings quickly dissapear.

No if it's "rare" in the way GW claims it is, they'd make it a 0-X option for every platoon instead of increase the cost.

Exactly my point. If you want something to be rare, you make it rare.

BYE

So today that's two threads now where HBMC and DD are agreeing and saying the same points...

I think it's time I stocked up on bottled water and canned foods...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Okay - Mkoll again speaks to Dakka:
Just a final note on the Plasma issue that seems to have some Dakka members up in arms.

Plasma is rare. It really is. Ryza is the leading Plasma Weapon producing Forgeworld. There are others but it is still a small amount. Flamers and Grenade Launchers are easy to create and most worlds can create their own. Meltaguns are again more rare but they use a fission microwave effect that is for some reason fluffwise easier to make and maintain.

I agree that uping the point of a rare weapon is not the way to do it, because then it appears more point costly not rare. However the only other way to do this is to remove Plasma Guns from a number of entries in the codex. This in turn would make you whine more probably because you cannot field your plasma at all. As such GW has to find a way to let you field you plasma and still make it more likely to be less numerous then other special weapons. That is their point system. You may hate it and curse it but get over it really, because this way you can still have your weapons.

That is all I am going to say on the subject. I enjoy trying my best to aid members from your forum but I am not going to argue with them over logistics of Plasma weapons. I hope you can get over one thing like this and just enjoy a new codex for our favourite army.

He does have a point there about what players would do if GW did actually limit plasma in other ways to truly fit the rarity of its fluff. I mean, really, just how pissed would folks be if only Storm Troopers or Vets could have them? There'd be quite a few, IMHO. Granted, there are others for which these are the only squads that they use plasma in and so don't see that as a viable argument. But it's a good point.

That would be kind of slowed for Guardsment units to be a base cost of 40 points per 10 guys.


Im ean seriously that is way to low of a point cost.


For I mean 1000 points you could have 200 something guardsmen and still have like a good portion of points to buy tanks.


I mean that is really really low point cost.

When you compare them to what else is out there, it really isn't.

Ozymandias wrote:So today that's two threads now where HBMC and DD are agreeing and saying the same points...

I think it's time I stocked up on bottled water and canned foods...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Consider your self siged

Death By Monkeys wrote:1) The weapon costs are roughly balanced. Grenade Launchers and Flamers are both 5 Points while the Melta is 10 and sadly yes the Plasma is 15(Fluffwise Guard regiments often lack these weapons) The Heavy Weapons weigh in at Heavy Bolter and Stubber at 5, Mortar and Autocannon and Missile Launcher at 10 and Lascannon at 15.

15 point plasma is a ridiculously stupid idea. Utterly indefensible. Units and upgrades should be priced based on their in game effectiveness instead of based on their fluff. A plasma gun isn't worth 15 points on a BS 3 model with a 5+ save. Especially since 5th Ed. involves your opponents getting a lot of 4+ cover saves.

Dropping 5 plasma guns down to Grenade Launchers frees up enough points for a full HB / GL squad. There's no reason to take plasma, they'll just be too expensive.




...Other than that, these rumors mean that instead of an extra 200+ points in 1.850 games, I'm looking at an extra 250+ points. Crazy stuff. Honestly, it seems a bit overpowered.

Last time Heavy Stubbers were available to Guard infantry (via the PDF Militia at the back of Codex Armageddon), they replaced a special weapon rather than taking a heavy weapon slot. Makes sense since they are single man portable. I used to run gangs with Heavy Bolter/Heavy Stubber.

I just know that what ever happens my wallet will stay empty this year.

Hollismason wrote:That would be kind of slowed for Guardsment units to be a base cost of 40 points per 10 guys.


Im ean seriously that is way to low of a point cost.


For I mean 1000 points you could have 200 something guardsmen and still have like a good portion of points to buy tanks.


I mean that is really really low point cost.

but exactly how effective would these 200 butt naked guardsmen be? Statistically thats only enough lasgun to kill 11.1 (ish) marines a turn. In no way will you be focusing all that firepower in one place either. A guardsman on its own is cheap because it's a bit crap.

Am I work thinking that the new codex seems extremely unfair?

In 5e killing vehicles is quite difficult and now every non-IG army is going to have to retool their lists to take on THAT much armor at least in a tournament setting. All these rules on the 15+ vehicles that are coming out makes me REALLY not look forward to the codex. Am I wrong by thinking this or do other people understand where I am coming from?

The Grundel wrote:Waaaah!

I'm just kidding ya!

It could be their competitive edge. Orks get the numbers and sheer CC deadliness, Nids get the big guys, IG get lots of guys and lots of Tanks.

It's the rock-paper-scissors competitive matrix.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

The Grundel wrote:Am I work thinking that the new codex seems extremely unfair?

In 5e killing vehicles is quite difficult and now every non-IG army is going to have to retool their lists to take on THAT much armor at least in a tournament setting. All these rules on the 15+ vehicles that are coming out makes me REALLY not look forward to the codex. Am I wrong by thinking this or do other people understand where I am coming from?

Well, let's be accurate: Killing vehicles with long range shooting is extremely difficult. Killing through close combat is easier than ever, thanks to always fighting versus rear armor. Plus, free Krak grenades for many models, and defensive grenades are now Str. 4.

I agree with your larger worry that everything getting cheaper may be a bit much, but keep in mind that a lot of recent codecies have significantly reduced the cost of a lot of stuff (transports, Ork Boys, etc.) I think 5th Ed. contains an across-the-board point reduction, albeit not as obvious a reduction as the 2nd Ed. to 3rd Ed. crossover. This is cold comfort for armies that won't be receiving a codex update for a while, but their day in the sun will arrive....

Plus, most people suspect that Guard are going to lose some of their most effective options (drop troops, close order drill, etc.) So it's not as cut as dried as saying "everything is better now!"

Ozymandias wrote:It's the rock-paper-scissors competitive matrix.

But Rock's broken!! You said so already.

Actually I don't see the big deal with cheaper Guardsmen. Once upon I time I thought the idea of a 200+ model Guard horde would be impossible to defeat, but then the 6 point Ork came along, and suddenly it didn't matter any more.

People are getting used to Ork hordes that advance with cover saves... this is just the same thing except their damage is caused from afar rather than in HTH, they're not Fearless, and they have no Biker Nobz or Lootas.

BYE

LOL @ Ozymandias

Dave, that is very true about the vehicles in close combat. That is the one thing that kept me from feeling well.... "waaaah" about the codex haha. I noticed that a good deal of the tanks need to be within 24" to be effective thus hopefully giving units that weren't destroyed by them room to get into CC to blow stuff up. And now that CSM and SM get krak grenades that should help even more.

I've played 3-4 guard armies and look forward to the new codex to build a nurgle IG army from but I can't help but feel like some of these new rules are going to really push some buttons. I understand the concept of having a TON of crappy toughness units with awesome armor to support, and I know that its that quality that makes the IG unique but some of these rules you guys.... they just don't seem right. I wouldn't blink if they made guardsmen 3-4 points but these tanks sound like someone got a little too excited over at GW...

The Grundel wrote:LOL @ Ozymandias

Dave, that is very true about the vehicles in close combat. That is the one thing that kept me from feeling well.... "waaaah" about the codex haha. I noticed that a good deal of the tanks need to be within 24" to be effective thus hopefully giving units that weren't destroyed by them room to get into CC to blow stuff up. And now that CSM and SM get krak grenades that should help even more.

I've played 3-4 guard armies and look forward to the new codex to build a nurgle IG army from but I can't help but feel like some of these new rules are going to really push some buttons. I understand the concept of having a TON of crappy toughness units with awesome armor to support, and I know that its that quality that makes the IG unique but some of these rules you guys.... they just don't seem right. I wouldn't blink if they made guardsmen 3-4 points but these tanks sound like someone got a little too excited over at GW...

It's pointless to get upset before you see the point values and how the codex is built.



The 15 point plasmagun is a blow, but not a major one imho. Las/Plas will run you 70 points now, that's **25** points cheaper!

I would assume the HS will be TL, which is cool, it would make them excellent at taking out infantry. I am also really excited about taking 2 special weapons in an infantry squad

Tanks are strong against shooting, but die extremely quick to melee. Of course that is where all of the meat shields come in

BoxANT wrote:I would assume the HS will be TL, which is cool, it would make them excellent at taking out infantry.

Not really. Even with the twin-linking, you're probably better off taking a Heavy Bolter instead of a TL Heavy Stubber. The extra point of strength, and the AP 4 instead of AP 6 makes a big difference. The TL Heavy Stubber is better versus Marines Orks and Necrons. The Heavy Bolter is better against Tau, Tyraninds, IG, and both flavors of Eldar. (And also specialty units like SM Scouts, Daemons, etc.) The weapons are equally good against T5 units like Plague Marines, Immortals, and Nob Bikes.

Plus, in a pinch, the Heavy Bolter can do something to light vehicles, so it's not worthless if you don't have LOS to infantry.

While 15 pt plasma makes me a sad panda I can see why they did it.

If the point costs were flamer 5 GLauncher 5 melta 10 plasma 10, well I would be picking plasma all the way. The utility of the gun just makes it such a great option. However 5 vs 15, well I have to think a little harder about my army build

Why would we pick plasma 'all the time' if it was the same cost as Melta? It's the same cost now and we still have units with plasmas and units with Meltas. They're two weapons with completely different roles, and neither can fill in for the other. Besides, 5th Ed isn't the era of the AP2 gun any more. Flamers and Heavy Bolters are where its at, and there's no better anti-tank weapon than a trusty Melta.

The reason no one takes Grenade Launchers now is because fo 2 points more you get a Plasma. If the difference between the two is 5 points, well that adds up. But the difference between a Melta and Plasma isn't 5 points because there is no difference between them. They're not designed to be compared to one another.

No, weapons should be priced based on their worth, or their worth should be based on what they cost. Pricing four weapons that have utterly different roles on a comparative basis makes no sense.

You don't a Lascannon more expensive than a Heavy Bolter because it's 'better' than a Heavy Bolter, do you? You make it more expensive than a Missile Launcher though, because it's better at killing tanks than the Krak Missile is.

BYE

I still have my fingers crossed for rear armor of 11 or 12 on the Russies. I can't even count the auto penetrating melee attacks that have killed 1/2 my army in turn 2 or 3. Maybe our new psyker can have a ld battle to stop the waagh...

Any word on the composition and options for the Special Weapon Squad? Will they still have the option to take 3 special weapons, including a demo charge?

I can't imagine it'll be much different except maybe they might bring the special weapon prices down. Never made sense for them to pay more for weapons when BS4 H-Vets didn't.

Good news is rumours seem to indicate a Chimera as a transport option for them, something they could only get in a Mechanised Doctrine army before.

BYE

The only reason Plasma is "rare" is that the Impeium doesn't arm every Guardsman with one as their standard weapon.

IMHO Plasma is overrepresented in Guard anyways. If its so rare that SM's the elite of the imperium, the guys who get all the good stuff cause they don't suck out loud can only get one per ten men? I don't think a guard army should have any at all. Period. But that would royally piss off too many players. So GW doesn't do it.

Wait...why shouldn't they have plasma? Guard are closer tied to various worlds than any Space Marine chapter is generally speaking. Plus being that they work closer w/ the adeptis mechanis more than space marines they shoudl be more inclined to get said weapons....being close to where refineries and other such goodes are. Why is Plasma so rare? it is used to fill up ships engines and other such things NOT just guns.

Kungfuhustler wrote:I still have my fingers crossed for rear armor of 11 or 12 on the Russies.

I don't see this happening. I think GW has pretty well settled on 14/12/10 for long-range Russes and 14/13/11 for Demolishers.
____

Ratbarf wrote:

The only reason Plasma is "rare" is that the Impeium doesn't arm every Guardsman with one as their standard weapon.

IMHO Plasma is overrepresented in Guard anyways. If its so rare that SM's the elite of the imperium, the guys who get all the good stuff cause they don't suck out loud can only get one per ten men?

SM get 1 Plasma per 5 Men - they can take 5-man squads as Troops. This is basically the same ratio as Guard, at 20%.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
SM get 1 Plasma per 5 Men - they can take 5-man squads as Troops. This is basically the same ratio as Guard, at 20%.

Said 5-man squads cannot take Plasmaguns (but curiously can take the rarer combi-plasma).

(Assuming we're talking about vanilla)

Ratbarf wrote:

The only reason Plasma is "rare" is that the Impeium doesn't arm every Guardsman with one as their standard weapon.

IMHO Plasma is overrepresented in Guard anyways. If its so rare that SM's the elite of the imperium, the guys who get all the good stuff cause they don't suck out loud can only get one per ten men? I don't think a guard army should have any at all. Period. But that would royally piss off too many players. So GW doesn't do it.

Umm.... This same argument can be used on every heavy and special weapon.

"If Space Marines, the guys with all the good stuff, can only get one Heavy Bolter per squad, then Imperial Guard should only get one Heavy Bolter per army!"

...Or we can realize that the fluff and rules rarely match up, and stop acting like this particular instance of that trend is so much more offensive than all the other times.

Dave47 wrote:

BoxANT wrote:I would assume the HS will be TL, which is cool, it would make them excellent at taking out infantry.

Not really. Even with the twin-linking, you're probably better off taking a Heavy Bolter instead of a TL Heavy Stubber. The extra point of strength, and the AP 4 instead of AP 6 makes a big difference. The TL Heavy Stubber is better versus Marines Orks and Necrons. The Heavy Bolter is better against Tau, Tyraninds, IG, and both flavors of Eldar. (And also specialty units like SM Scouts, Daemons, etc.) The weapons are equally good against T5 units like Plague Marines, Immortals, and Nob Bikes.

Plus, in a pinch, the Heavy Bolter can do something to light vehicles, so it's not worthless if you don't have LOS to infantry.

Against MEQ
HS TL: 3/4 * 1/2 * 1/3 * 3/1 = 9/24 = 0.375
HB: 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 3/1 = 6/18 = 0.333

Against OEQ
HS TL: 3/4 * 1/2 * 3/1 = 9/8 1.125
HB: 1/2 * 2/3 * 3/1 = 6/6 = 1.0

You would be slightly better off with a HB against 5+ saves and 4+ saves, if they are in cover the HS TL has the advantage. My point is that for Guard players like me, who really wish they could have a bolter free IG army, TL HS sound great

My major beef with this codex is shaping up to be that it apparently focuses on armor, and yet there are no vehicles released this year, the "next wave" is coming out in 2010 or what have you. The Valkyrie will be fun, but it will also be overcosted, easy to destroy and expensive to buy.

H.B.M.C. wrote:You mean there isn't a Captain Thor Norse special character (due Q3 2028, Wave 11.2) who allows you to take a 'Flight of the Valkyries' army where Guard squads can take Valks as standard?

You know, even "In Soviet Russia" jokes are more fresh than you repeating that inane quip time and again. Yes, we bloody get it. I might even agree with you sometimes if you weren't an donkey-cave. Still not funny.

Love you too Aggy.

Your problem, of course, is that you take me too seriously. I'm not a donkey... cave... (took me a moment to figure out what the board software was censoring there) at all. Just blunt. And opinionated. And grumpy (in an intentionally verbose and over-the-top fashion). But (most) of what I do is done in a good spirit.

When I'm actually being a cave which donkey's presumably dwell in, it's usually quite clear.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:Your problem, of course, is that you take me too seriously. I'm not a donkey... cave... (took me a moment to figure out what the board software was censoring there) at all. Just blunt. And opinionated. And grumpy (in an intentionally verbose and over-the-top fashion). But (most) of what I do is done in a good spirit.

Anything worth taking is worth taking seriously. I play 40k (incredibly badly), and I take it completely seriously. Anything else is just taking the mickey.

Besides, the problem is, that repeating an inane joke seriously and repeating an inane joke in a good-spirited, jolly-old-boy fashion results in the same amount of inane chatter. Your motivations don't make your actions any less annoying.

You seem to care a lot more than the others. I find that odd. Why do I concern you so much? I really shouldn't. This is the internet after all.

BYE

Geesh! Why can't people on this board lighten up a bit? If he want's to run with a gag until we gag let the man run with it and keep your negative, non constructive comments to yourself! Donkey cave... lulz

I concede the point, and hereby ignore 6 people out of this thread.

Ah the ignore feature, solace of the wilfully blind.

Anyway, there's a pretty big difference between taking something seriously and being passionate about something. Don't take a game of little toy men seriously, but by all means be passionate about it. It wouldn't be any fun if we didn't care.

BYE

Fine, no ignores then, if it means I'm going to be smacktalked behind my back.

Gentlemen! The internet is serious business, you should know that by now!




I wonder if platoon command squads get a dip or rise in points cost somewhere along the line?

I wondered about that myself. I did the math and my 238-point platoon will cost 170 points with the rumored points costs, even if the junior officer and 4 bullet shields remain at 40pts. I suspect it'll go down to 35 or 30 points.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Fine, no ignores then, if it means I'm going to be smacktalked behind my back.

Come now Aggy! I only do that to John.

BrookM wrote:I wonder if platoon command squads get a dip or rise in points cost somewhere along the line?

Was that a not-quite-so-subtle attempt at getting the thread back on topic Brook? If so well done, I think it worked.

But yes, I think we're going to see two things go by the wayside:

1. Cheap JO's leading armies - This is a double edged sword as I see it. I really liked the idea of a Junior Officer leading a smaller unit, and the idea that you could bring JO's in smaller games. The problem is no one did that, they just brought them because they could get the stats and the abilities of an HSO for 5 points less with a JO & Honorifica. Now, the Honorifica is no doubt going the way of the Chaos Legions and interesting Daemons, so that solves that problem, but I think that, in typical GW overbalancing style, to ensure that the practice of taking Junio Heroic Senior Officers goes away, they'll simply remove them as an option for the CHQ. Honestly I'm happy about the loss of Heroic Juniors. I did it because it was efficient, but I always hated the idea that my unit's commander - Major Lucius Sharpe of the 444th Cadian Mechanised - was just a junior officer with a fancy medal.
2. Throwaway HQ units - Another I can say I'll be glad to see go will be the Suicide Melta/Plasma/Whatever unit. We will probably still be able to load Command Sections up with special weapons (at least, I hope we'll be able to - otherwise what am I going to do with my 20 Cadian Flamers and 16 Grenade Launchers!), but the idea of using them as a throwaway unit will go away thanks to the new orders and Vox rules. And this is a good thing. I'd much rather be rewarded for keeping my officers alive through special rules and abilities than just using them as throwaway units because they're more efficient that way.

And I can see the actual CHQ becoming more expensive than it is now. Bad for smaller games, but given what its role appears to be, and the rules that are rumoured to go with it (orders, Voxes, etc.), I think it's warranted. As long as they address the 2 KP per squad thing that is. Can't forget that little nugget.

BYE

I think the only KP fix we are going to get is 1kp command squads, well, aside from my speculation that Creed will allow guard players to choose mission type. Were only getting a points drop in infantry squads because he's now manditory :(

Out of interest, where are you getting your info on Creed, or is it all just wild speculation/what you think will happen?

BYE

Kungfuhustler wrote:I think the only KP fix we are going to get is 1kp command squads, well, aside from my speculation Creed will allow guard players to choose mission type. Were only getting a points drop in infantry squads because he's now manditory :(

That's something I never thought about before. It'd be the sort of ability GW would give a high-priced special character, and it'd be in tune with his old ability. If that comes to pass, Creed & Kell would become compulsory for me at least (I'd go with Seize Ground every time)

Agamemnon2 wrote:If that comes to pass, Creed & Kell would become compulsory for me at least (I'd go with Seize Ground every time)

And thus we once again point out one of my greatest if not my greatest pet peeve with the current GW games design philosophy - virtually mandatory special characters. Sorry, I just can't see Creed leeding his men into every engagement they fight, everywhere, at once, simultaneously (like Eldrad). I mean, the rumours of the generic special characters were bad enough (at least you got to invent who they were with them), but if we're about to get another round of 8 (or whatever) army-altering special characters that become all but mandatory, I begin to lose interest very quickly and just go back to caring only about the plastic Valkyrie.

BYE

I'm surprised that BolS hasn't jumped on the latest stream of rumours yet with much gusto. They're probably still smarting from posting that Spanish list.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:If that comes to pass, Creed & Kell would become compulsory for me at least (I'd go with Seize Ground every time)

And thus we once again point out one of my greatest if not my greatest pet peeve with the current GW games design philosophy - virtually mandatory special characters. Sorry, I just can't see Creed leeding his men into every engagement they fight, everywhere, at once, simultaneously (like Eldrad). I mean, the rumours of the generic special characters were bad enough (at least you got to invent who they were with them), but if we're about to get another round of 8 (or whatever) army-altering special characters that become all but mandatory, I begin to lose interest very quickly and just go back to caring only about the plastic Valkyrie.

BYE

So, wait, I guess I'm still not back in the swing of things, but why can't people field two appropriate models as a "Counts as" Kreed and Kell? It seems like a good avenue for conversions, and would let a lot of non-Cadian armies still field appropriately "fluffy" characters.

I agree it's annoying embodying these traits in gear-limited special characters, instead of simply paying points for the ability and using your preferred HQ choice. But it shouldn't be a fluff-breaking as you claim.

Well, for one thing, it's another 2 Kill Points embodied in two T3 independent characters with no ID-protection.

Maybe SO's and HSO's get the Medallion Crimson as standard gear, just like how GW passed out Iron Halo's to all marine commanders like candy.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Out of interest, where are you getting your info on Creed, or is it all just wild speculation/what you think will happen?

BYE

Pure speculation. Based on his old rules, his mention by Mkoll as one of the 4 special HQ guys, no other rumors about KP fixes and GW's current trend in codex building I think it's a decent educated guess. I just hope my theory on 4+ saving plasma gunning standard guardsmen for 4 points proves accurate too...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:Flamer < Melta < Plasma

False. The three weapons have nothing to do with one another other than all being special weapon options.

Hey, I know. I'm just explaining GW's logic.
Personally I don't even remember fielding a single plasma weapon since 3rd ed. except on vehicles.

What happened to the rumor about 2 KP platoons?

I don't think they'll do 2KP platoons, because however its done it involves math - and we all know Alessio hates the 'M' word...

What they may do (this is pure speculation on my part) is just say that basic Infantry squads don't give up KP's on the basis that the guard don't care how many grunts get killed - while heavy and special weapon squads, officers, tanks etc are more precious resources and worth KP's.


...or they may just leave it as it is and hose IG until 6th ed comes out...

GW won't waste space in the codex on the KP issue.

Unless.. Robin has a mind of his own and doesn't listen to uncle Jervis. We can only hope!

The Grundel wrote:Am I work thinking that the new codex seems extremely unfair?

In 5e killing vehicles is quite difficult and now every non-IG army is going to have to retool their lists to take on THAT much armor at least in a tournament setting. All these rules on the 15+ vehicles that are coming out makes me REALLY not look forward to the codex. Am I wrong by thinking this or do other people understand where I am coming from?

It feels extremely pleasant to be called unfair as a Guard player. That's surely a change for the better.

I'm afraid I have no idea where you're coming from though. Vehicles are quite easy to kill. People get all hyped about cover saves when in fact it isn't that easy to find cover while maintaining good LoS and still be mobile. And immobile tanks are even easier kills.

Secondly, 15+ vehicles? Where did those come from? Looking at points costs, you're either approaching Apoc territory or fielding loads of essentially AV 10 Chimeras.

Dave47 wrote:

BoxANT wrote:I would assume the HS will be TL, which is cool, it would make them excellent at taking out infantry.

Not really. Even with the twin-linking, you're probably better off taking a Heavy Bolter instead of a TL Heavy Stubber. The extra point of strength, and the AP 4 instead of AP 6 makes a big difference.

*Blinks* The mainstream opinion here is that all tanks always get the bestest cover saves and people get all excited because 15 point plasma supposedly isn't worth it because of cover saves and yet the HB's AP makes a difference?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:As I (and many others) see it...Plat addresses the rest of the issue nicely, thanks Plat.

Notice how he says 'many others' when here I right am, in this very thread, agreeing with him, fighting on his side of the argument. He cannot acknowledge my presence, because then he'd have to admit to reading my posts, and his ego simply couldn't take that. He even goes so far as to thank someone else to further hide it.

Amazing.

BYE

I think you're on his ignore HBMC.

Any rumor on the actual price of the Valkyrie, points and $?

Some time ago BOLS posted a price list up to the first week of May. The Valkyrie was there and IIRC it was the same $ as the Land Raider.

How about points?

Frazzled wrote:I think you're on his ignore HBMC.

Gee, ya think?

Frazzled wrote:Any rumor on the actual price of the Valkyrie, points and $?

None of the reports have hinted at a points cost. So it'll be somewhere between 'well costed' and 'horribly over costed'.

BYE

Valkyrie, an open topped transport, fast, skimmer, loads of weapons, deep striking. With the chimera 55pts, and the valkyrie an all new model that GW's trying to sell tons of I'm betting it'll cost 75-80pts before any upgrade.

Valkyrie open topped?

Of course.

GW-logic will be; "Engine intakes and other fidly bits will be vulnerable".

We might say; "But Land Speeders also have fidly bits which you dont care about since the crew have power armour, so the fidlt/vulnerable bits are irrelevant".

GW will say; "Spaze Marenz Hurr!".

Because it's a skimmer and the occupants aren't in power armor.

edsit: /\/\/\

Salaam A'laykum, (or peace be upon you, for those who don't speak arabic).

Open-topped Valkyrie? GW daftness afoot once again!

And they claim that sticking a roof on the battlewagon somehow qualifies it as being non-open topped.

Aside from that, all seems good news. Maybe I'll start painting my Ogryn Bone Head after all...

EDIT - Actually, I'm quite liking it over here in Tehran. Not as bad as certain ex-US Presidents would have you believe. I'm off to Pyongyang next.

Well the only reasonable Kill Point fixer-uper that I have really seen listed in this thread, or any other, is simply regular squads of guys won't give up KP. No fancy math, no asking people to learn how to add anything up....just flat out only the important things matter in the Guard army. Life is Cheap rule or something else like that....

IS there anything solid about the Valkyrie being open topped?

Because it appears to have been said by a single person so far? Not saying they are lying of course, just that they might have jumped to a conclusion or gotten the wrong end of the stick.

Maybe the open side doors make it open-topped?

that would explain the rapid deployment thing and make the whinny eldar players (redundant) be quiet.

Thanks livingregret

I can't see it happening (it sounds too sensible for GW), but you never know...

On the other hand, it would encourage people to buy shedloads of basic infantry - ooh, is that some recut sprues I see???

The best kill point fix I heard, and I don't remember where I heard this from was that each platoon (not counting attached squads or tanks) counts as 1 kill point.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:IS there anything solid about the Valkyrie being open topped?

Because it appears to have been said by a single person so far? Not saying they are lying of course, just that they might have jumped to a conclusion or gotten the wrong end of the stick.

I think that was just a statement. I don't beleive the FW version is open topped.

Think Chimera Calvin’s idea works better. The “1 Platoon = 1KP” idea gets a bit fiddly if that platoon is spread across the board and mixed up with other platoons.

This is a long thread, but was there a mention somewhere of a Deathstrike missile being released? Plastic or resin. I'm just asking, because I don't want to scratch build one if there's a likely release that'll make mine look pants.

Frazzled wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:IS there anything solid about the Valkyrie being open topped?

Because it appears to have been said by a single person so far? Not saying they are lying of course, just that they might have jumped to a conclusion or gotten the wrong end of the stick.

I think that was just a statement. I don't beleive the FW version is open topped.

The FW version wasn’t a skimmer either…

Back to Kreed and Kell, I suspect that instead of choosing the mission, they will either give a +1 or a reroll for the various pregame bits, or allow you to just pick whether to go first or pick your side.
Probably the former, a +1 or reroll.

Hopefully it will be something relatively minor like that so that it is not mandatory. Letting you choose the mission is useless in fixed mission situations and Apocalypse, and really would result in playing "Not KP" over and over. Not I think I think GW is immune to such bad decisions, mind you. "We fixed KPs! Now guard just never plays for them!"

Is there any suggestion that field commands are no longer required? In other words, can I eschew an Officer and squads in favor of a special character or Inquisitor/Commisar lord or something?

Flashman wrote:Think Chimera Calvin’s idea works better. The “1 Platoon = 1KP” idea gets a bit fiddly if that platoon is spread across the board and mixed up with other platoons.

Yes I see that being the problem. Not enough people, really barely anyone that I have seen at least, actually puts on Squad numbers on various units or really denotes Squad a is w/ Platoon B while Squad C is also w/ Platoon C but not Squad B they are w/ Platoon A.....gets finicky and w/ out FORCING people to write down all of that jazz, because they didn't paint something on, would make that to hard to implement.

Hooray!!!

Another thread derailed....

I really like the 'life is cheap' name for the special rule too, livingregret

Maybe death by monkeys can mention it to mkoll to pass back up the food chain to his GW contacts and see if they like it. Either way, I think my group will adopt this as a house rule assuming no other fix comes through from GW.

My bad. I thought the Valkyrie was opened top. I also remembered that there is supposedly an open topped transport of some sort rumored and so I jumbled those two. SORRY for causing a derailment.

Now that I think about it, the salamander being given troop transport ability may be the the rumored open topped transport vehicle.

oops, sorry aka_mythos, that wasn't directed at you, no offence meant.

I was being sarcastic at myself (and livingregret) for talking about KP fixes...

Got to amuse ourselves somehow whilst we're waiting for the first IG pics. Can't believe they're going to appear in WD before someone publishes them onto Dakka or some other likeminded internet site.

EDIT - Hmm, I appear to have been upgraded to Sneaky Kommando. Is this a good idea given my current Middle Eastern location

Flashman wrote:Got to amuse ourselves somehow whilst we're waiting for the first IG pics. Can't believe they're going to appear in WD before someone publishes them onto Dakka or some other likeminded internet site.

It's almost....offensive really. That we have to wait for the company to actually show us pics before some good to honest leaks....sigh.

So anyone else stoked about having to possibly build up our army over a 1year+ period because GW refuses to release all/most of the models at any quick pace? I SURE AM!! YIPPIE CONSTANT WORK IN PROGRESS ARMIES!!!

livingregret wrote:

Flashman wrote:Got to amuse ourselves somehow whilst we're waiting for the first IG pics. Can't believe they're going to appear in WD before someone publishes them onto Dakka or some other likeminded internet site.

It's almost....offensive really. That we have to wait for the company to actually show us pics before some good to honest leaks....sigh.

So anyone else stoked about having to possibly build up our army over a 1year+ period because GW refuses to release all/most of the models at any quick pace? I SURE AM!! YIPPIE CONSTANT WORK IN PROGRESS ARMIES!!!

How will we ever live with having rules for models that aren't released yet. Parish the though.

On the squad marking part. That is a personal pet peeve of mine, if you are fielding multiple units of almost exactly the same model, you got to distinguish the squads claerly enough to where you opponent can see them. It is only fair and keeps things like multiple units in combat much simpler.

livingregret wrote:

Flashman wrote:Got to amuse ourselves somehow whilst we're waiting for the first IG pics. Can't believe they're going to appear in WD before someone publishes them onto Dakka or some other likeminded internet site.

It's almost....offensive really. That we have to wait for the company to actually show us pics before some good to honest leaks....sigh.

So anyone else stoked about having to possibly build up our army over a 1year+ period because GW refuses to release all/most of the models at any quick pace? I SURE AM!! YIPPIE CONSTANT WORK IN PROGRESS ARMIES!!!

Actually, i realize you're kidding but this is way frustrating. The fact that GW staff leak like a sieve is the only thing that keeps me from going to Nottingham and going postal over their "3-month window" bullcrap. It seriosuly blows my mind that they can't just confirm some of this stuff earlier in the game. OR at least once it goes to the printers/mold-makers.