Exactly. So either give us power weapons, or give us a significant defensive boon (T5, FNP, 4+ save, or any combination thereof). Those are the only thing that make a difference except in the most trivial of circumstances, like assaulting Great Knarlocks or something.

livingregret wrote: If by interesting you mean horrible...than yes Sorry but the idea of 5 people that can not actually be hidden and only get the max of a 4+ Cover save against shooting that gives up 3+ KP is not appealing. And needing 1 HQ + 2 troop choices your talking 9 KP(if each one is worth 3 in this example)for 15 people. Not cool...not cool at all

Sometimes I forget how weak guardsmen are... but I just jeep thinking about how many KP my army is going to be worth what with having about 50% more infantry squads.

Oh drek.. the loss of cheap power weapons is a scary thought.

I'm thinking about how many fewer KP my army will be worth. 1 for the platoon 1 for the Officer, well that's the rumor. Does make me wonder if vehicles are considered part of the platoon for those purposes.

I personally think that 1 kp per squad and HQ is what we will get and that is fine by me. when I lose a game due to KP's it's usually by the 1/2 the difference of my command squads lost or less

Man, that's an awefull lot of pages....

To comment on something that has been said on the 1st page ( ) I would love to see Cain (and Jurgen of course) to get rules and models. Cain is my favourite 40k character. Sure, then maybe we do have 3 Commisar special characters, but there are also half a dozen SCs just for Ultramarines....

BrookM wrote:Oh drek.. the loss of cheap power weapons is a scary thought.

Well if they're increasing Plasma Guns to 15 becuase they're 'rare', then expect Power Fists to skyrocket to 25 each. I mean, they're also rare right? Never mind the fact that a Powerfist on a WS3 S3 W1 T3 model with 2 attacks worth all of 5 points and a power weapon on the same model should be free.

BYE

Anung Un Rama wrote:Man, that's an awefull lot of pages....

'sorright. Most of 'em are mine, so you can safely ignore those.

BYE

BrookM wrote:Rough Riders will get horses.

SPACE HORSES!

The good news is they will ride Grim Dark Space Horses.

The bad news is they will give up 2 KP per squad. One for the riders, one for the Grim Dark Space Horses.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Never mind the fact that a Powerfist on a WS3 S3 W1 T3 model with 2 attacks worth all of 5 points and a power weapon on the same model should be free.

Know what this is? Truth.....plain and simple truth.

Are I sucks and against pretty much EVERYTHING IN THE FREAKIN GAME we are striking last at anyways. And if we aren't? No biggie....t3, s3, 5+ save = Fail in CC.

@HBMC the baseline thing I belive is how it SHOULD work but does not. One needs only run a few mathhammer calcs and we will see it is a flawed game. I think marine w/ bolter would be a good base line since it is what GW if focused around selling. In a truly balanced game who the base is would not matter since everything would balance out relatively. All that said its still fun MOST of the time.

smart_alex wrote:@HBMC the baseline thing I belive is how it SHOULD work but does not.

It's what it's mosty based on. As you add more and more units eventually you can't base everything on the single base unit you originally created. At that point you create a base unit in each army (Guardsman, Guardian, Firewarrior, Ork Boy), base that new base-unit off the original base unit, and then base all the other units within that Codex on the one you just created.

Again, it's never going to be perfect with all the different units there are in the game (and this doesn't even factor in how they would do vehicles on a comparative scale) but thankfully one of the easiest parts is weapon costs. The cost of a Plague Marine or a Pathfinder or a Wych Elf is always going to be questioned, but the comparative prices of weaponry (especially weaponry that's shared between difference Codices) is going to be easier to figure out.

That's why the 15 point Plasma Gun is so obviously broken, as we can see just by looking at it that it's not worth that much on a BS3 Sv5+ model (those two stats being the important ones when looking at a Plasma Gun).

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

That's why the 15 point Plasma Gun is so obviously broken, as we can see just by looking at it that it's not worth that much on a BS3 Sv5+ model (those two stats being the important ones when looking at a Plasma Gun).

BYE

I don't know about that, shouldn't what the weapon in general brings to the codex within the context of itself have something to do with the price?

It may make logical sense for a power fist or plasma gun on a lowly guardsman to cost more than a Marine equivalent, either because the guardsman has less chance to survive long enough to use it and with less force - or simply has less chance to survive burning up., but I'm not sure if it makes gameplay sense.

I've had this argument with other players, veterans, beginners, myself many times and I don't think certain wargear should be cheaper because it's less effective in certain books. I think that's more of a side effect of the chosen army itself. The plasma gun still kills the same things it will in the hands of a guardsman as it does being held by a marine.

In fact, I'm actually all for guard paying the same price or even more in the case of the plasma gun. It's a very powerful weapon that fills many roles that their meager close combat cannot - MC hunting, terminator killing, light vehicles, character etc. I also think due to the cheaper nature of the average guardsman body and their FOC quirks, it's more likely you will have more plasma guns floating around versus a marine army of the same point cost.

I think we all know better than to expect inter-codex consistency from GW. Yelling at the Emperor for playing favorites with his precious Space Marinez doesn't change the fact that we still come out on top with all the other reduced costs. I chuckle at the thought of a plasma gun being worth almost 4 Guardsmen, however.

Guardsmen 1: "We have to go back for Johnson!"
Guardsmen 2: "For his tags?"
Guardsmen 1: "His what now?"

Defiler wrote:I've had this argument with other players, veterans, beginners, myself many times and I don't think certain wargear should be cheaper because it's less effective in certain books.

Explain that. Why? I do not understand.

In fact, flip it around.

15 point plasma Gun on a Marine. Then another army comes along that gets to re-roll all armour saves and is BS10, and they also use Plasma Guns. Is it worth 15 points on them as well?

I think that's more of a side effect of the chosen army itself. The plasma gun still kills the same things it will in the hands of a guardsman as it does being held by a marine.

Defiler wrote:In fact, I'm actually all for guard paying the same price or even more in the case of the plasma gun.

That makes even less sense. More for less?

Defiler wrote:It's a very powerful weapon that fills many roles that their meager close combat cannot - MC hunting, terminator killing, light vehicles, character etc. I also think due to the cheaper nature of the average guardsman body and their FOC quirks, it's more likely you will have more plasma guns floating around versus a marine army of the same point cost.

It's idiotic to think that a weapon that is less effective should cost same or more.

BYE

I'm with HBMC on this one, fluff and concept make way for game balance. A guardsman with a 15 point plasma gun would be ~20 points. A marine with a 15 point plasmagun would be ~30 points. This makes the guardsman 4-5 times its typical price and doubles the price of the marine. That means that a marine, with its great statline and special ruleset is only 33% more expensive than a guardsman. A guardsman is typically a third or less the value or a marine, yet equipping a single item nearly equalizes them. Damage output is not the only consideration in a points equation, the total package has to be considered first in a balanced game. A guardsman doesn't even have the same damage capability, its three times as likely to kill itself with its own gun, hits about 18% less often, and will get considerably less chance to even use the gun given its armor and leadership values.

Game balance > fluff nitpicking

While I find 15 pts to be high, let's remember that we're looking at the total cost of ownership, as well. Your IG 15 pt plasma gun is being carried by a 4 pt guardsmen, for a price tag of 19 pts. Your SM 10 pt plasma gun is being carried by a 16 pt space marine (replacing his "free" flamer), for a price tag of 26 pts.

Let's ignore economies of scale for the moment, as the IG army will certainly have more opportunities to buy plasma guns (and the SM army will certainly live longer to make use of them).

Question: is a plasma gun in the hands of an IG trooper 73% as useful as in the hands of a space marine?

Shooting: A BS 4 SM hits on a 3+; a BS 3 guardsman hits on a 4+. Shooting-wise, the IG get 75% of SM utility from the gun.

"Gets hot!": A SM saves on a 3+; a guardsman saves on a 5+. The IG are 50% as likely to survive "Gets hot!"

Weighing the relative factors is hard. I suppose you could construct a model, weighing the decreasing value of surviving in progressively later turns. It looks like the IG pay a little too much, but not THAT bad.

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm with HBMC on this one

R... really? Like, for real?

Well in that case:

15 point Plasma Guns? That's too damned cheap. They need to be at least 40, like the Sonic Blaster is in my beloved Chaos Codex. It's fair because they're rare in the fluff and powerful in game and... umm... GW sells things becaus they're nice and... not in it for the profit. Anyone who says otherwise is a... umm... conspiracy theorist... or something... and should stop playing if they hate it so... much... I love Apoc. Yeah... I guess.

No... I can't keep doing this. I feel unclean now...

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm with HBMC on this one

R... really? Like, for real?

Well in that case:

15 point Plasma Guns? That's too damned cheap. They need to be at least 40, like the Sonic Blaster is in my beloved Chaos Codex. It's fair because they're rare in the fluff and powerful in game and... umm... GW sells things becaus they're nice and... not in it for the profit. Anyone who says otherwise is a... umm... conspiracy theorist... or something... and should stop playing if they hate it so... much... I love Apoc. Yeah... I guess.

No... I can't keep doing this. I feel unclean now...

BYE

I think I just heard the fabric of the universe tear. Wow, it sounded weird.

Defiler wrote:

I've had this argument with other players, veterans, beginners, myself many times and I don't think certain wargear should be cheaper because it's less effective in certain books. I think that's more of a side effect of the chosen army itself. The plasma gun still kills the same things it will in the hands of a guardsman as it does being held by a marine.

You forget that it hits less often, is more likely to kill the user on an overheat, is on a far easier to kill platform (t3 5+sv vs T4 3+sv) and is more likely to break and run and is *terrible* in CC compared to every other unit in the game except Grots. A marine with a plasma gun can sit there the whole game shooting and not be too bad off. A guardsmen with a plasma gun is almost certain to die by the end of the game.

In fact, I'm actually all for guard paying the same price or even more in the case of the plasma gun. It's a very powerful weapon that fills many roles that their meager close combat cannot - MC hunting, terminator killing, light vehicles, character etc.

Yes, but the only price it's going to go up to is 15pts. With the new codex that's almost 4 guardsmen. Space Marines pay for essentially an extra marine when they take a PG. Why should guardsmen have to buy almost half a *squad* of dudes for a PG?

Is IG plasma spam a genuine problem now? No? Has it ever really? I don't think so, and as such there isn't really a reason to increase it's cost.

Oh lordy, BolS is analyzing the Spanish list.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

It's idiotic to think that a weapon that is less effective should cost same or more.

BYE

It's also idiotic to selectively quote me, while ignoring the intent of my post.

BYE

Vaktathi - I didn't forget any of that. That wasn't my point though, I realize it's less effective in a real battlefield situation, but it's still a plasma gun and it's still on a theoretically cheaper body.

New IG sounds great, sold over 5000pts few years ago and was considering getting SM until I read this. Any news of a apoc size IG with tons of troops/tanks etc...

BrookM wrote:Oh lordy, BolS is analyzing the Spanish list.

Warseer, too, is taking it at face value without a shred of criticism. They decided that Mkoll could not be trusted.

What would be good, given the release of a plastic command squad, would be a platoon box set.

e.g. 1 Command Squad
2 Squads
1 Heavy Weapon Squad
1 Chimera

However, given that GW's Battallions are always next to useless, I'm guessing something like this won't be happening.

OK let me get this straight most folks are going ape over a "rumoured" price of a PG . OK if it true we can bi*ch. When its all said and done you will as well as me pay the 15 points to get the damn thing my .03

I'm still really skeptical about the gazillion tank variants posted but I want to believe.

skullspliter888 wrote:OK let me get this straight most folks are going ape over a "rumoured" price of a PG . OK if it true we can bi*ch. When its all said and done you will as well as me pay the 15 points to get the damn thing my .03

True. Plasma is the great equalizer. 15 pst or not, what other realistic choices do I have for MEQ-killer from my armoury? Flamers? Meltaguns? Surely not Grenade Launchers!? Plus after having spent considerable effort and time to get extra plasma guns for my 15+ converted guardsman, I am NOT going to just pull them off the frontlines.

Defiler wrote:It's also idiotic to selectively quote me, while ignoring the intent of my post.

BYE

*laughs*

You don't get off that easily son. Reply or conceed. You can't just call me a meany claim that you were right. Doesn't work that way.

Defiler wrote:That wasn't my point though

'Course it wasn't, otherwise you'd have to acknowledge his argument now wouldn't you?

Defiler wrote:I realize it's less effective in a real battlefield situation

Translation: I conceed.

Defiler wrote:but it's still a plasma gun and it's still on a theoretically cheaper body.

Which, as was already demonstrated, has numerous, numerous weaknesses compared to the Marine, torpedoing your line or argument in a single shot.

And he did it more elegantly than me.


BYE

Flashman wrote:What would be good, given the release of a plastic command squad, would be a platoon box set.

e.g. 1 Command Squad
2 Squads
1 Heavy Weapon Squad
1 Chimera

That could just end up being the Battleforce.

BYE

Which would be great, but as I suggested in my post, when do Battleforces ever end up being useful?

The current IG one is pretty good, I started off getting 3 of them.

Dexy wrote:The current IG one is pretty good, I started off getting 3 of them.

(Quickly checks IG Battalion content on GW website) Fair point... just pop the new Command Squad in and downgrade to a Chimera perhaps? As heavy weapons are going to be included in the infantry squads (nuisance that, I prefer to keep my squads moving), the inclusion of a full Heavy Weapon Squad is probably unlikely.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

BrookM wrote:Oh lordy, BolS is analyzing the Spanish list.

Warseer, too, is taking it at face value without a shred of criticism. They decided that Mkoll could not be trusted.

The reason is that the spanish rumors are supposedly from the final draft of the codex that has gone to print while Mkoll admits his rumors were predominately from a copy of some playtest rules. It isn't that he couldn't be trusted, just that his rumors are secondary to the final draft.

ph34r wrote:I'm still really skeptical about the gazillion tank variants posted but I want to believe.

There have been several things that support the spanish rumors, in more instances then not parts of the spanish rumors have been corroborated, with Mkolls play test based rumors being the only thing to contradict it. The author has stated that there would be 21 or so vehicles (more recently saying 23), which there pretty much are. If you take the author at his word, you then have to ask how will there be so many vehicles? It always seemed unlikely they'd just copy the Forgeworld stuff and that they'd make new units up. None of the rumored new stuff is too ridiculous when you look at their disadvantages and trade offs. For me another thing I find to support it is that the author was quoted as saying that his objective was ti bakance and equally represent the infantry, artillery, armor aspects of the IG, that appears to be what this rumored list does. Think of it this way, IG we don't have greater demons or anything like that, so instead we get the "greater demon" of tanks and the "greater demon" of artillery.

It is difficult for many of the disillusioned guard players to imagine a codex where the guard are at par with other armies, where we actually have an advantage beyond the number of models, where we have a decent chance of playing winning. It seems like the only thing GW really needed to do to make those players happy was to cost down vehicles and guardsmen and to make the ogryn better. *gasp* we're getting more. For the first time things are going our way and IG players are in denial. Maybe the totality of the spanish rumors aren't completely right, but they seem to be mostly right.

I agree with HBMC on the plasma gun issue, at least on a comparative basis from one model to the next.

However, there can be an argument made on the economy of scale. If IG had cheaper Plasmaguns, because of their low price, you can take a crap ton more of them then in a Marine army.

For the cost it would take for a Marine army to field one unit with a Plasmagun (not counting BA/DA that can still do 5 man + special), the IG can field two squads with Plasmaguns.

Maybe I am talking out my rear, but it is still something to consider.

I don't think it justifies a 15 point price tag, but 10 wouldn't be unreasonable.

As far as the Powerweapon/ Powerfist debate, I think it should be 5 points for the Powerweapon and 10 points for the powerfist. Anymore then that it wouldn't be worth it, any less, there would be no reason not to take them.

The reason is that the spanish rumors are supposedly from the final draft of the codex that has gone to print while Mkoll admits his rumors were predominately from a copy of some playtest rules. It isn't that he couldn't be trusted, just that his rumors are secondary to the final draft.

Where is our leaked codex?

It is difficult for many of the disillusioned guard players to imagine a codex where the guard are at par with other armies, where we actually have an advantage beyond the number of models, where we have a decent chance of playing winning. It seems like the only thing GW really needed to do to make those players happy was to cost down vehicles and guardsmen and to make the ogryn better. *gasp* we're getting more. For the first time things are going our way and IG players are in denial. Maybe the totality of the spanish rumors aren't completely right, but they seem to be mostly right.

Who would have ever thought as early as two years ago that the most competitive armies would be Orks and Guard!

The first day of Special Weapons Basic Training in any Guard boot camp must be very hilarious.

"Men, I want you to all be constantly aware that the weapon you're holding is 4 times more valuable to the Imperium than you are. Therefore, when you die, I want all of you to make an attempt to cushion the weapon's fall with your body. We can't have those things getting busted up."

aka_mythos wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

BrookM wrote:Oh lordy, BolS is analyzing the Spanish list.

Warseer, too, is taking it at face value without a shred of criticism. They decided that Mkoll could not be trusted.

The reason is that the spanish rumors are supposedly from the final draft of the codex that has gone to print while Mkoll admits his rumors were predominately from a copy of some playtest rules. It isn't that he couldn't be trusted, just that his rumors are secondary to the final draft.

ph34r wrote:I'm still really skeptical about the gazillion tank variants posted but I want to believe.

There have been several things that support the spanish rumors, in more instances then not parts of the spanish rumors have been corroborated, with Mkolls play test based rumors being the only thing to contradict it. The author has stated that there would be 21 or so vehicles (more recently saying 23), which there pretty much are. If you take the author at his word, you then have to ask how will there be so many vehicles? It always seemed unlikely they'd just copy the Forgeworld stuff and that they'd make new units up. None of the rumored new stuff is too ridiculous when you look at their disadvantages and trade offs. For me another thing I find to support it is that the author was quoted as saying that his objective was ti bakance and equally represent the infantry, artillery, armor aspects of the IG, that appears to be what this rumored list does. Think of it this way, IG we don't have greater demons or anything like that, so instead we get the "greater demon" of tanks and the "greater demon" of artillery.

The thing that I noticed, is the Orders system. Where Mkoll makes no mention of it (That I can remember seeing), it's been almost confirmed as an aspect of the new army. If the blurb of text that accompanied the shots of the Plastic Valkyrie really is from the next White Dwarf, it makes the Orders system one of the very few things we actually have confirmed by GW directly.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe a little of both, not everything from either.

But the Artillery from the Spanish list makes me both skeptical and wet between the knees at the same time. While the Deathstrike would be TOTALLY WICKED! It just seems like it's only useful in apocalypse. In terms of realistic thinking (I know, I know! HISS! REALISM! HISS!), it's basically bringing your smallest ICBMs to a smallish-scale firefight. Why would you DO that?! Even if you're going to bring the big guns to the fight, why in the Emperor's name would those things be ANYWHERE near an enemy when they can fire what equates to 960" in game terms?!

But in Apocalypse games? I plan on having a battery of the little bastards. Eventually I'll just get together a fully dedicated artillery regiment. Mmmm.

AlexCage wrote:The first day of Special Weapons Basic Training in any Guard boot camp must be very hilarious.

"Men, I want you to all be constantly aware that the weapon you're holding is 4 times more valuable to the Imperium than you are. Therefore, when you die, I want all of you to make an attempt to cushion the weapon's fall with your body. We can't have those things getting busted up."

Are we also required to cushion it when the fragging thing overheats to the point of "owie, my fingers!"



I guess not..

And then there's this pic from r0xAs on the Boot Camp thread, which in turn was credited to Warseer (love posts that have bibliographies ).

Don't know if it's a kit or conversion, but it may be the Russ with the Punisher Cannon.

ubermosher wrote:And then there's this pic from r0xAs on the Boot Camp thread, which in turn was credited to Warseer (love posts that have bibliographies ).

Don't know if it's a kit or conversion, but it may be the Russ with the Punisher Cannon.

If it is, that answers the question of what the 4 barreled tank in the BGB is.

Yup, that's a studio model alright. Could be an in-house conversion though, not a production model, maybe a prototype.

Platuan4th wrote:If it is, that answers the question of what the 4 barreled tank in the BGB is.

Actually, since I'm thinking the pic increases the reliability of the Spanish Rumors, I'm wondering if the 4-barreled tank in the BGB is the Heavy 4 Exterminator, re-cut as a 4 barrel tank?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Defiler wrote:It's also idiotic to selectively quote me, while ignoring the intent of my post.

BYE

*laughs*

You don't get off that easily son. Reply or conceed. You can't just call me a meany claim that you were right. Doesn't work that way.

Defiler wrote:That wasn't my point though

'Course it wasn't, otherwise you'd have to acknowledge his argument now wouldn't you?

Defiler wrote:I realize it's less effective in a real battlefield situation

Translation: I conceed.

Defiler wrote:but it's still a plasma gun and it's still on a theoretically cheaper body.

Which, as was already demonstrated, has numerous, numerous weaknesses compared to the Marine, torpedoing your line or argument in a single shot.

And he did it more elegantly than me.


BYE

You're really not as intelligent as you think you are.

A 2000 point imperial guard army can easily have 150-200 men on the field, and in the new codex they will (can) easily have a lot more than that.

A 2000 point marine army is lucky to put 40-50 models on the field.

The IG FOC has more opportunities for plasma weaponry. And a potential for more bodies. This is more important than you might think.

Trust me mister arrogant, I completely understand the virtues of plasma weapons on tougher, more accurate bodies as illustrated in my very first post - as I listed a counter argument to my own opinion, in efforts of showing I've thought out both sides.

And yes, it's quite idiotic to think that an army that can have more of the same option, (Redundancy) shouldn't pay more for it. Even if it's a little bit less effective. Something that is a comparatively rarer choice in one list should be cheaper, than one that can essentially be spammed in another.

But you wouldn't understand that. You only take into account literal performance stats - ignoring that two plasma guns for around the same cost as one marine with a plasma gun have more potential for damage than the single weapon.

BYE

AlexCage wrote:The first day of Special Weapons Basic Training in any Guard boot camp must be very hilarious.

"Men, I want you to all be constantly aware that the weapon you're holding is 4 times more valuable to the Imperium than you are. Therefore, when you die, I want all of you to make an attempt to cushion the weapon's fall with your body. We can't have those things getting busted up."

Isn't that in the Munitorum's Manual, that failure to retrieve a special weapon dropped by a dead squadmate is punishable by death? (Along with showing up to the game store unbathed, and measuring distance incorrectly, among other things.)

Defiler wrote:You're really not as intelligent as you think you are.

A 2000 point imperial guard army can easily have 150-200 men on the field, and in the new codex they will (can) easily have a lot more than that.

A 2000 point marine army is lucky to put 40-50 models on the field.

The IG FOC has more opportunities for plasma weaponry. And a potential for more bodies. This is more important than you might think.

Trust me mister arrogant, I completely understand the virtues of plasma weapons on tougher, more accurate bodies as illustrated in my very first post - as I listed a counter argument to my own opinion, in efforts of showing I've thought out both sides.

And yes, it's quite idiotic to think that an army that can have more of the same option, (Redundancy) shouldn't pay more for it. Even if it's a little bit less effective. Something that is a comparatively rarer choice in one list should be cheaper, than one that can essentially be spammed in another.

But you wouldn't understand that. You only take into account literal performance stats - ignoring that two plasma guns for around the same cost as one marine with a plasma gun have more potential for damage than the single weapon.

BYE

Whoa now boys, lets not let anonymity and access to the internet get the better of us. This is a public forum after all. I mean, we could be arguing about the validity of a 5 point increase that may or may not be true.

Everyone please raise their hand who did not get their permission slip signed to take plasma in the new codex. Good, everyone was able to trick their parents. I'll still be taking plasma, with or without those 5 points included.

normally i'd just dismiss HBMC's posts just like i would an angry old man holding a "THE END IS NEAR!" sign on the street corner but he has a point. i agree that guard plasma should be rare but expensive doesn't equal rare. rare means that it should only be allowed (no matter what the cost) in certain squads and not others. for instance, squads with an officer should have the political power/rank to requisition a plasma weapon; lowly sergeants (or even veteran sergeants) shouldn't have access to them for their squads. in an ideal world, the plasma would cost 10 points and be limited to command squads, stormtroopers, veteran squads, and specialty vehicles like the demolisher. i have every command squad (3 total) outfitted with max plasma guns; i also have a medic in each because there is a 1/9 chance that a guardsmen will kill HIMSELF everytime he fires (rapid firing 4 guns in the squad means the medic is very busy). if this comes through, i'd rather spend the 60pts (plus the cost of the 3 medics) on something else.

15pts for a plasma gun? does that also include its little weaker brother the plasma pistol too? if so im so screwed because i pack alot of plasma for my command squads

Flashman wrote:Which would be great, but as I suggested in my post, when do Battleforces ever end up being useful?

The current Space Marine and Cadian forces are quite good - I've bought the SM Battleforce and was quite pleased with the value it provided. The SM would be optimal if the Combat Squad and Scout Squad were merged into a 2nd Tactical Squad.

The Cadian battleforce is also quite good, and an excellent start in on any IG force. Indeed, one could buy 3 of them to get the necessary bodies and Russes required to start.

____

aka_mythos wrote:The reason is that the spanish rumors are supposedly from the final draft of the codex that has gone to print while Mkoll admits his rumors were predominately from a copy of some playtest rules.

It always seemed unlikely they'd just copy the Forgeworld stuff and that they'd make new units up.

It is difficult for many of the disillusioned guard players to imagine a codex where the guard are at par with other armies,

I dunno. The Spanish rumors seem awfully silly, though.

Actually, I fully expected GW to simply use the power of copypasta and move most of the FW stuff into the regular list.

Guard *are* at par, as long as they're built as un-Guard-like Drop Troops supported by Ordnance. The problem is that this competitive build totally flies in the face of existing Guard Fluff and imagery. But make no mistake that this works and works very well.
____

ubermosher wrote:Don't know if it's a kit or conversion, but it may be the Russ with the Punisher Cannon.

Looks very Apocalypse, especially with the Steel Legion models.
____

warboss wrote:normally i'd just dismiss HBMC's posts just like i would an angry old man holding a "THE END IS NEAR!" sign on the street corner but he has a point.

i agree that guard plasma should be rare but expensive doesn't equal rare. rare means that it should only be allowed (no matter what the cost) in certain squads and not others. for instance, squads with an officer should have the political power/rank to requisition a plasma weapon;

Heh. Now, I'm picturing BM as more like the crazy cat lady on the Simpsons...

In the IG, "rare" is denoted as "Officer-only", like, say Power Fists...

Plasma is "uncommon" in that it's not a common Lasgun, but any squad can take at least 1, and many squads can take several. Storm squads can take 2, Specials and Veterans can take 3, and Officers can take 4. Works for me!

There's a lot more things than a 15 point plasmagun that are wrong with the world. So what if they raise it. Everything else is getting cheaper, you'll still be able to afford all your beloved plasma, probably even more than before. Doesn't matter how great the new codex is, folks will always find one dumb little thing to cry about

Yeah, but how about letting that "one dumb thing" be something that nobody needs to field, like, say, Ratling Snipers or Priests.

Necros wrote:There's a lot more things than a 15 point plasmagun that are wrong with the world. So what if they raise it. Everything else is getting cheaper, you'll still be able to afford all your beloved plasma, probably even more than before. Doesn't matter how great the new codex is, folks will always find one dumb little thing to cry about

Do you see where your "easy going" attitude has led you? What new depths of heresy will you plumb, after madness such as this!
Poor soul, only now, at the end, do you understand why an open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.

Now, into the black ship before your heresy infects anyone else!

Edit: I can live with 15 point plasma guns, but good lord, plasma pistols need to be 5 points now. For any army really, but especially guard. Is 12" assault 1 really worth it if the only way to get yourself killed faster than shooting your pistol is assaulting afterwards? 15 points for a weapon you can shoot once or twice all game is bad enough on Sisters or Marines, but on guard it would be nuts. 10 isn't much better.

BrookM wrote:Yup, that's a studio model alright. Could be an in-house conversion though, not a production model, maybe a prototype.

I hope so, because that's fething hideous. How many damn decades must we wait until they redesign the two ugliest vehicle models in the 40k range?

ubermosher wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:If it is, that answers the question of what the 4 barreled tank in the BGB is.

Actually, since I'm thinking the pic increases the reliability of the Spanish Rumors, I'm wondering if the 4-barreled tank in the BGB is the Heavy 4 Exterminator, re-cut as a 4 barrel tank?

I'm hoping:

1) It's a conversion, 'cuz it ain't pretty enough to deserve a metal or plastic model like that, and
2) It's the Exterminator, because the Spanish list just seems inane to me.

Remember the source of 15 point plasma also stated the possibility of squads taking 2 special weapons. So potentially there is a chance of taking 60 plasma guns in standard infantry squads alone, nevermind the potential for stormtroopers, veteran squads, command squads, etc. Definite potential for spam there, even in low point games.

I do find the rarity of plasma argument a little weak however, considering it appears that Sentinels will be gaining an option for plasma cannons.

Hmmm. Anyone heard anything about an IG battleforce? Spearhead? Flak armor Tide or any other huge box O' IG? I'd love to see guard get a boxed set that rivaled the tyranids box.

Battle Forces are renewed several months after the initial release.

Spearheads are out and not coming back, same for army deals.

aka_mythos wrote:Think of it this way, IG we don't have greater demons or anything like that, so instead we get the "greater demon" of tanks and the "greater demon" of artillery.

Don't say that! If we got the "greater daemon" of tanks and artillery we would be limited to only LRBTs with no sponsons for tanks and basic basilisks for artillery!

synchronicity wrote:
Whoa now boys, lets not let anonymity and access to the internet get the better of us. This is a public forum after all. I mean, we could be arguing about the validity of a 5 point increase that may or may not be true.

Everyone please raise their hand who did not get their permission slip signed to take plasma in the new codex. Good, everyone was able to trick their parents. I'll still be taking plasma, with or without those 5 points included.

I have two responses to this :

1) He started it

2) My dad can beat up his dad


My only issue is that one can simply just disagree, illustrate with reasons and then be insulted for having a different opinion.

The last thing I have to offer that I didn't in my previous post, was that if the whole army in general is getting cheaper - something like a 5 point increase in plasma weapons would be a drop in the ocean. I don't see how this is something to get up in arms about.

Defiler wrote:The last thing I have to offer that I didn't in my previous post, was that if the whole army in general is getting cheaper - something like a 5 point increase in plasma weapons would be a drop in the ocean. I don't see how this is something to get up in arms about.

Two reasons:
1) It's an artificial and arbitrary attempt to create tabletop scarcity, when the rules designers have far more effective means to actually implement rarity, if they actually wanted to. Instead, we get the worst of both worlds: paying far more than what the relative value of the weapon should be, coupled with some lame attempt to excuse the pricing with an unjustified claim of fluff-based scarcity.

2) It undermines the "cheaper, therefore now better" philosophy of game design if the discount in base Guardsmen prices is (partially) offset by an increase in near-mandatory equipment.

Simple fact: the IG have relatively few options, when it comes to dealing with heavy infantry (terminators) and robust MCs (2+ save Tyrants/carnifexes/etc.) The plasma gun is the best special weapon choice to handle this niche, given the all-or-nothing AP system. As Terminators are now MORE common than ever, and TMCs have suddenly come to their senses and decided to leave the poor bloody infantry alone, we still need these guns. So claims of "cheaper, therefore now better" are disingenuous if they neglect the total cost of actually fielding a competitive IG army.

What Defiler says. H.M.B.C. is just hyperventilating over nothing. All that ire is but hot air seeing as how the points cost are supposed to drop. 10 points, 15 points, it is irrelevant. Those cheaper heavy bolters and lascannon more than pay for this slight increase.

Agamemnon2 wrote:
Warseer, too, is taking it at face value without a shred of criticism. They decided that Mkoll could not be trusted.

Your reading facilities have obviously shut down temporarily. Never mind.

So does anyone else have WD 350 yet besides this dude on Bootcamp or whatever site it is? Can someone flash some more pics of what's coming yet?!?

Agamemnon2 wrote:Warseer, too, is taking it at face value without a shred of criticism. They decided that Mkoll could not be trusted.

I'd take Mkoll's word over some random translated-from-some-other-language list anyday. But that's probably because ever rumor kinda thing I ever saw Mkoll post about in the past has actually come true.

don't matter though, still got quite a while before the book is in my hands anyway so I'll just wait and keep building my lizardmen in the meantime

Necros wrote:still got quite a while before the book is in my hands anyway so I'll just wait and keep building my lizardmen in the meantime

x2, sir. x2

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:Your reading facilities have obviously shut down temporarily. Never mind.

And the heaping of abuse continues undaunted. Alas, woe is me.

ph34r wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Think of it this way, IG we don't have greater demons or anything like that, so instead we get the "greater demon" of tanks and the "greater demon" of artillery.

Don't say that! If we got the "greater daemon" of tanks and artillery we would be limited to only LRBTs with no sponsons for tanks and basic basilisks for artillery!

Haha, true. I just meant on a theoretical level. Not a "I'm GW, I'm going to nerf the living snot out you" way.

ubermosher wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:If it is, that answers the question of what the 4 barreled tank in the BGB is.

Actually, since I'm thinking the pic increases the reliability of the Spanish Rumors, I'm wondering if the 4-barreled tank in the BGB is the Heavy 4 Exterminator, re-cut as a 4 barrel tank?

The rumor is that the Exterminator is in the initial recut Leman Russ box set., so I'd be more inclined to believe the quad barreled thing to be that. But with as many new vehicles there is no way of knowing.

Slideshow of pics from the new guard codex! There are a bunch of cool looking tanks here. The guys who leaked this are probably screwed...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMC2XJw5m6Y

wahahahaahaha that would be a cool codex indeed

*puts Kingfuhustler on 'the list'*

You have been warned...

BYE

KungFuhuffer: you know, that doesn't work very well when the tab that comes up at the top says Cake Roll'd.

WHAT that's must the new special character

Defiler wrote:You're really not as intelligent as you think you are.

This is a Personal Attack, which is forbidden on Dakka. You can attack the post all you want (indeed, that's what much of Dakka is about, the debate), but attacking the poster himself (or herself, you never know) is not acceptable. Please refrain from doing so in the future.

Thank you.

it's hard for me to get excited over a thread that you can't tell what's
valid and what's wishlisting. then when the personal attacks start.... .
i'll see you in May.

I heard that one of the new special characters will be "Captain Mac Cheaplas", we will let you take plasmaguns for 5 points less.

Where did this Spanish codex originate from anyway? Every site sources it from another site which is from another site. The Mkoll rumors at least can be traced back to they guy posting them, but I havent seen anything at all, not even 'my friend's friend's cousin said' about this spanish leak.

BoxANT wrote:I heard that one of the new special characters will be "Captain Mac Cheaplas", we will let you take plasmaguns for 5 points less.

You must be that HMBC that us forum nubs keep hearing about.

i wonder if the plastics will look any better or have some customization for the guardsmen

Gestalt wrote:Where did this Spanish codex originate from anyway? Every site sources it from another site which is from another site. The Mkoll rumors at least can be traced back to they guy posting them, but I havent seen anything at all, not even 'my friend's friend's cousin said' about this spanish leak.

The Spanish rumors claim to originate from a finalized English copy of the codex.
The more info that comes out the more these rumors a corroborated.

Gestalt wrote:Where did this Spanish codex originate from anyway? Every site sources it from another site which is from another site. The Mkoll rumors at least can be traced back to they guy posting them, but I havent seen anything at all, not even 'my friend's friend's cousin said' about this spanish leak.

Its funny when a spanish site claims to have someone looking into a english codex, then translates it to spanish and the other
forums retranslate to english.

Maybe if it would be a chinese site (and someone looking into the dex at the printers) i could see some possibility of truth there.

As it stands its just another set of rumors.

Still waiting for some native english speakers to look into a english copy........

Yeah, the translation is always fun stuff. Why can't he just have typed the English rules directly, and then given his commentary in Spanish?

(what? the world doesn't revolve around mono-lingual English-speaking Americans?!?)

JohnHwangDD wrote:

(what? the world doesn't revolve around mono-lingual English-speaking Americans?!?)

lies


my tv tells me otherwise

yea go guard! who dares disrespect ciaphas cain the space pimp?!?

1hadhq wrote:
Its funny when a spanish site claims to have someone looking into a english codex, then translates it to spanish and the other
forums retranslate to english.

Maybe if it would be a chinese site (and someone looking into the dex at the printers) i could see some possibility of truth there.

...

I feel the following is relevant to the current topic:


But the more I think about it... the more I think

"Deathstrike? Really? Come on. Really?"

It's almost too good to be true. So I immediately assume it is. Seems more like something that'd be in the Apocalypse release.

Maybe newer Codices are going to include Apocalypse datasheets? It would certainly make sense for Guard, seeing just how much superheavy stuff they get.

I doubt it.

Well, all we can do now is wait and see. They already got the May issue of WD all printed up, so the codex is also done and ready for mass printing. I just hope that Adrian Smith isn't responsible for the cover art, that guy still can't draw or paint human faces right.