Now I know this may sound like a contentious question, but bear with me here a moment. I've been playing this game (and lurking on Dakka) for many years and I appreciate there are plenty of issues with the rules and the overall game mechanic - but then, can we honestly say that earlier versions of the game were better? Sure, 2nd Ed and Rogue Trader (for the real old guard here) had lots of flavour, much of which was bleached out in 3rd ed, but they were even more flawed rules than what we have now. And who can argue with the fact that some of that flavour is coming back? The new Ork codex, conversion beamers in the new marine dex', Black Library fluff on tap, and as for Apocalypse...

I mean really, being able to throw down all your models on a huge table and just go for it - what a blast - forget balance, forget structure, just have fun...I've only participated in one, memorable 40,000 point apoc game, but it really was the best wargame fun I've had in years.

Now I haven't played a tournament for a long time, but as a casual observer, it seems tournament support (internationally) is better than ever. I am not in a position of sound knowledge here, so no doubt there are places or events where this is not the case.

There will never be a set of rules for 40K, or any game for that matter, that satisfies everyone. And being the internet, it is much more satisfying to talk about what is wrong with the rules than what is right with them. We could spend all day (and many, many threads do) discussing flaws in the system, but still, what we now have seems to be better than what has gone before.

And as for the models coming out over the last few years - things that even three or four years ago would have seemed like wish-listing:
Plastic Cadians (and related models)
Plastic Wraithlord
Plastic Buildings
Plastic Baneblade
Plastic Terminators
Plastic Drop pod
Plastic Stormboyz, nobs, grots et al
And on the horizon...plastic Valkyrie, 6 plastic baneblade variants and a plastic Stompa....
The list goes on

I mean c'mon, objectivity be damned, we have never had it so good when it comes to the models. I could even be convinced we will see a plastic Warhound one day.

And the prices? Well, always a sore point. We all wish they were lower. But, looking around these days (Warmachine, Infinity, Flames of War) it seems GW is the benchmark for pricing amongst wargaming minis - love it or hate it. I guess if they really were too expensive, none of us would buy the stuff.

So then, have at it - are we living in the Golden Age of 40K?

Well, I know I've been having more fun with the game than I ever have before, and I've been playing since 2nd ed. I also know that my FLGS is absolutely packed on our league night.

Almost all of the new models that have been coming out have been very good, and although people perceive plastic as having less "value" than metal minis, they're far easier to work with which leads to more creative and better executed conversions.

Aside from some codex-specific issues (do biker nobs really need a cover, armor and FNP save?) I'd say that the Big Rulebook has the best rule-set ever, with enough randomness (cover saves, difficult terrain tests, morale checks in any phase) to keep the game exciting but strategy-oriented at the same time.

So sure, I'll go ahead and agree with you.

Nope...because that would assume that things are going to get worse or that we've reached some sort of peak.

To be honest i hate APOC games and it has put me of the hobby in general, with the balance and structure things seem a little pointless, though i will agree that the minis coming out have been excellent and it does seem more people are playing then ever...

I think i am just grumpy and clinging to my structure, i dont find anything fun about super heavy stuff to me apoc games are not such much fun but more like tfg wet dream

I don't agree with the often said 'you can't make a perfect game', as argument for not criticizing the rules as they are. Literally yes you can't make a perfect game - but there are better and worse games judged against each other. 40k is silly, like a very brief game of rugby. More so with this and the last edition.
But Model wise yes now is awesome. (Though it will prob get more awesome)

Hahahahahahahaha! No we are not living in a golden age for 40k.

Having played for 15 years now, I might be reluctant to say "golden age", because we can't know the future, but I'm honestly having more fun with the game than I have in a long time.

I'm loving the rules set and new models were getting, plastic tech is now so good, and whilst i'm not a fan of mega battles i know some people like them, and the baneblade and stompa kits are nice.

So are things perfect? No.
Are they improving? Yes
I just hope they keep on improving

Ultimately, I remember back in 2nd edition as we anxiously awaited each new codex and a load of new models which would accompany them. However, we never did get some of the models for our armies and were often left to our own devices.

Nowadays, I think we are spoiled for model and terrain choices.

-Terrain looks much better than from years ago. I'm still amazed at how cool some of the cityfight style tables look that aren't created that aren't in White Dwarf or a Games Day.

-I'm spoiled for choices with models. I love the plastic range and really enjoy building armies these days (currently Orks and looking forward to IG).

I won't call it a Golden Age, but I am really impressed that GW has finally come up with huge kits like the Baneblade, Stompa, Valkerie, Cityfight and an entire table top surface. All very cool and enjoyable.

Gordy2000 wrote:Now I know this may sound like a contentious question, but bear with me here a moment. I've been playing this game (and lurking on Dakka) for many years and I appreciate there are plenty of issues with the rules and the overall game mechanic - but then, can we honestly say that earlier versions of the game were better? Sure, 2nd Ed and Rogue Trader (for the real old guard here) had lots of flavour, much of which was bleached out in 3rd ed, but they were even more flawed rules than what we have now. And who can argue with the fact that some of that flavour is coming back? The new Ork codex, conversion beamers in the new marine dex', Black Library fluff on tap, and as for Apocalypse...

I mean really, being able to throw down all your models on a huge table and just go for it - what a blast - forget balance, forget structure, just have fun...I've only participated in one, memorable 40,000 point apoc game, but it really was the best wargame fun I've had in years.

Now I haven't played a tournament for a long time, but as a casual observer, it seems tournament support (internationally) is better than ever. I am not in a position of sound knowledge here, so no doubt there are places or events where this is not the case.

There will never be a set of rules for 40K, or any game for that matter, that satisfies everyone. And being the internet, it is much more satisfying to talk about what is wrong with the rules than what is right with them. We could spend all day (and many, many threads do) discussing flaws in the system, but still, what we now have seems to be better than what has gone before.

And as for the models coming out over the last few years - things that even three or four years ago would have seemed like wish-listing:
Plastic Cadians (and related models)
Plastic Wraithlord
Plastic Buildings
Plastic Baneblade
Plastic Terminators
Plastic Drop pod
Plastic Stormboyz, nobs, grots et al
And on the horizon...plastic Valkyrie, 6 plastic baneblade variants and a plastic Stompa....
The list goes on

I mean c'mon, objectivity be damned, we have never had it so good when it comes to the models. I could even be convinced we will see a plastic Warhound one day.

And the prices? Well, always a sore point. We all wish they were lower. But, looking around these days (Warmachine, Infinity, Flames of War) it seems GW is the benchmark for pricing amongst wargaming minis - love it or hate it. I guess if they really were too expensive, none of us would buy the stuff.

So then, have at it - are we living in the Golden Age of 40K?

What got you playing in the first place?

Was it the great models? the creativity? Being able to build and convert any force you wanted?

Or was it being pigeon holed into having to play One or the other, with a variation on a color of space marine?


Looking back? If GW was as ass as it is now, I probibly wouldn't have even got into the hobby, or I would have dug hard into something other then this particular companies product.

I got into the hobby because point blank, the game was fun. Sure along the way there was bumps in the road, as far as the rules and minis are concerned, but we always make due.

In summery,. GW is possible to be excelent in some regards, and absolute garbage in others.

Golden Age? Hardly. Evolving company with room to improve, a viable product, and quite possibly one of the biggest in the food chain of gaming.

This hobby doesn't get the luxury of a "Golden Age" because there is always competition to come up from behind and take the cheese. Getting people interested enough to take the ferrarri out for the test drive, and getting a few dollers out of the guys pocket is the ultimate goal.

It sure is a golden age for my Squat, LatD & Genestealer Cult forces. Not to mention all my various flavors of Chaos Legions (Infiltrating Cultist Alpha Legion, 4HS Iron Warriors etc.)

I'm also glad that all the daemons retain their distinct non-generic flavor.


Aside from that, it's all pretty good. The rules are tighter than I ever recall them being (even if Vehicle Squadrons suck with the die on Immobile thing), the models for the most part look fantastic. I had more fun playing 2nd Edition, but the game now is clearly a better thought out game.

We are in a Gilded age

If Sqats ever see the light of day, then yes!

Ding! Used 'squats' in my 500th Post!

Yes. The orks have a new codex. They are now the broken army. The age of man has come to an end, the age of the ork is dawning. Suck it MEQs!

I think we are at the start of the golden age.The rules
we have now don't seem to have much wrong with them,if
arguably anything.I hope GW realise that they are pricing
a lot of their metal models out of the market.For example
to build a flexible necron force you need a bank loan.
More of their models I suspect will be plastic,for at the
rate GW price rises go it won't be that far away from
being £20 for a single model,and nobody will pay that.
My golden age would be a huge surge in the story timeline,
something really dramatic!

BigToof wrote:Yes. The orks have a new codex. They are now the broken army. The age of man has come to an end, the age of the ork is dawning. Suck it MEQs!

I can't wait until the Orks' next codex, where they get nerfed into oblivion. Like so bad that they make the Ork 3rd edition codex look like it was the greatest codex ever.

I really can't wait.

Absolutely not the goldne age.

Its great that we get the ton of models, but the hobby attitude from them is completely copper age now. I remeber a beter age of modeling and hobby then today.

Build things out of any model, from any company. Citadel Journal had alot of great stuff, if a bit wacky. Specialist games.....

BigToof wrote:Suck it MEQs!

hurrah!

I've been in the hobby for about 15 years, playing the same army in various point levels. I have to say that I was having the most fun with the game immediately prior to 4th edition coming out. The competition for my time was relatively low and GW seemed to actually care about my experiance as a player.

Currently, GW has a poor attitude in regards to their rule sets and other product lines are producing products that are superior in their cost vs reward vs annoyance factors.

Will you please listen to yourself? In the same post you mention the flawed rules of 1st and 2nd edition and the streamlining of the game later on then to go on to talk about fantastic, wacky games of apocalypse. But what do I know, maybe people like apocalypse so much because they can finally go back to games with roguetrader style amounts of holes. I don't know.

Or maybe we should pull up the history of white dwarf, shall we? You know, I read an article in it about personalizing your miniatures and a little more advanced positioning. There, I found a little gem, did you know you can make your miniatures look like they are aming by turning the head the same angle as the gun?

Miniatures, absolutely. There has never been a better time for those using their own, or older rulesets.

I keep seeing squats everywhere. Squats this, squats that...WHAT ARE SQUATS?!?

Dashofpepper wrote:I keep seeing squats everywhere. Squats this, squats that...WHAT ARE SQUATS?!?

They were an army of Space Dwarves that existed in the 1st and 2nd editions of 40K.

They were mad Space Dwarf Bikers with Daddy issues.

.....They took away space dwarves?!?!

Perhaps we are living in a plastic age of 40k

Ah, the internets...

...now just to clarify here, I'm asking the question are we living in a Golden Age, not making a statement (the question mark at the end of the sentence is a clue). Personally, I don't think we are, as I believe GW and 40K will continue to improve - here's hoping the background richness is better used (a la 2nd Ed etc) and the rules get better (as for the corporate attitude, good luck with that).

Dashofpepper wrote:I keep seeing squats everywhere. Squats this, squats that...WHAT ARE SQUATS?!?

Nothing worth mentioning.

Rules wise, the 5e book is better than previous editions in the sense that it is less riddled with obvious flaws and errors. It's still not balanced or streamlined, but the unbalance has changed direction. I don't think it will get much better.

A lot of the problem is the policy of slow updates to codexes which means whatever the status of the current rules, a number of codexes will be wrong.

Gordy2000 wrote:I mean really, being able to throw down all your models on a huge table and just go for it - what a blast - forget balance, forget structure, just have fun...

I mean c'mon, objectivity be damned, we have never had it so good when it comes to the models. I could even be convinced we will see a plastic Warhound one day.

And the prices? I guess if they really were too expensive, none of us would buy the stuff.

So then, have at it - are we living in the Golden Age of 40K?

I think, for most players, especially casual players, 40k hasn't been this good since Rogue Trader. And then, only because Rogue Trader was totally free-form and unstructured - nearly anything was possible under the original RT rules. The basic 5E ruleset is very good, tighter and cleaner than any of its predecessors, and far more scalable than what we've had to date. Apocalypse captures a lot of the energy and freedom, but channels it with a little bit of suggested structure along with a bunch of fun options.

Model-wise, plastic technology is really come a long ways, and the new stuff is fantastic. I think we'll see a plastic Warhound soon enough, that GW is saving this in their back pocket for when FW Warhound sales finally start to dip a bit. I'll bet the CAD work is already complete, and it would just take an thumbs up from on high for the plastic Warhound to go into production. I love seeing Apocaypse models and formations take the board.

Price-wise, I don't really see GW as expensive at all. I've been at it for over a decade, and my original Eldar models are still playable any time I want to throw them down on the board. GW models have a reasonable upfront cost that gives years and years of play. Best of all, Apocalypse lets you play all of the stuff that you bought.

I think things are great now.

I love 40k now more than ever, I have more disposable income, the plastics keep getting better and better. And my favorite part is I get to field retardly absurd amounts of tanks in APOC games. Whats not to love.

I feel that its a great time for the "hobby" side with more and more plastic/interchangable kits.

Also all the plastic buildings and gaming boards are amazing!

Im enjoying the modeling more than ever. The game is just as fun as ever for me

I would say the community of warhammer has always been the same, but the new models and the such being released... however i still think games workshop has plenty of room to improve

Grandmaster wrote:I feel that its a great time for the "hobby" side with more and more plastic/interchangable kits.

See, now I find it the complete opposite. The plastic kits are great, but seem to stunt the hobby side rather than grow it. Especially when I look back at old citadel Journals and see stunning conversions.

I say we are living in the crapy rules age of 40K... I even deviated from my old-as-the-hills-and-ever-growing PH-style World Eater army, and started eldar... Me, playing eldar! No-one could have guessed...

golden age? Wasn't the Golden age when the Emporer was out and about? I'd say we are in the pewter age ... yep.. white metal FTW...

NO, we are in the Polystyrene Age!

How about now? New Dark Eldar, Necron re-vamp and they put bunches of extra bitz on the sprues. Ooops! Finecast. Did we just hit an air pocket? I started in mid-third edition and it has gotten better by far. Yeah, they blunder a bit - deep striking Land Raiders? And the rules are getting a bit complicated with all the special powers/abilities crammed in, but if Zogwort can turn an independent character into a squigg, I'm in.

I'd say the Age of the Sculptor which maybe makes it a Renaissance, but can you use that word about something that happens in the future?

No we're in the FineAge, just leaving the Polystyrene Age.

I'd say it's at a somewhat good point, kits are simple enough and still allow conversions and the competition is to the level that you can easily convert non-GW units to act as replacements for neglected ranges.

Gordy2000 wrote:, and as for Apocalypse...

I mean really, being able to throw down all your models on a huge table and just go for it - what a blast - forget balance, forget structure, just have fun...I've only participated in one, memorable 40,000 point apoc game, but it really was the best wargame fun I've had in years.

*Ahem* WE,and I mean more then myself, have been playing large scale games for years WITHOUT any fancy rules to be able to do it.

Now I haven't played a tournament for a long time, but as a casual observer, it seems tournament support (internationally) is better than ever. I am not in a position of sound knowledge here, so no doubt there are places or events where this is not the case.

Grand tournments back in the daty were far far better, then what I see today. Tournments have been around before. Indy curcuit has been around for a while.

And as for the models coming out over the last few years - things that even three or four years ago would have seemed like wish-listing:
Plastic Cadians (and related models)
Plastic Wraithlord
Plastic Buildings
Plastic Baneblade
Plastic Terminators
Plastic Drop pod
Plastic Stormboyz, nobs, grots et al
And on the horizon...plastic Valkyrie, 6 plastic baneblade variants and a plastic Stompa....
The list goes on

To counter this, let me ask:

Hows the bit service support nowadays? Or how is the conversion scene? Back in the days before going public, they use to come up with AMAZING things without having to worry "is it a GW bit".

Let us also not forget, we also have finecast with alll that. Thats a big minus

Let me also ask: how's sepcialist games doing? Games that were one off, but brought people in? Epic, space hulk WITH expansions, gorka morka, necromunda....THAT list goes on and on.

White dwarf content? Yeah no constest there in comparison to days of old.

So then, have at it - are we living in the Golden Age of 40K?

No. The golden age has passed us by. Silver or Bronze age is more likely it.

Given the amount of legitimate issues surrounding GW at the moment, I will say we are very far from a Golden Age. Sure we have a lot more multi plastic kits but it’s no where near enough to offset the other BS.

I'd not say golden age, and i've been there through the lot

The models are generally better, though some are less characterful than the old ones (old ork models for example, compared to the new ones, and old daemonettes compared to the new ones..)

The prices are in the golden age :( The models are more costly than gold by weight and size by a goodly margin (though the old lead ones might also have been i guess). I miss being able to buy multiple rhinos as one kit, or dual LR's, for affordable prices. These days if you're a kid getting into the hobby you'd better come from money or deal drugs to be able to afford it..

The conversion scene is vastly inferior to the old days when Bitz order was the norm, and they couldn't care less if you smashed a tonka toy to use as material for a hover unit cybork leg

The Rules are mostly smoother and more playable. I like 5th ed, mostly.

The incessant focus on the Marines, and the godsawful fluff that they tack onto the IOM stuff these days is definitely not so great. BL's offering have gotten less and less readable too.

Certain rewrites didn't thrill me, and i've lost several armies to retconitis over the years as they no longer exist... :(

My favorite time this side of 2nd Ed (as I loved RT ) wold have to be just after the transition to 5th, before the GK, BA, Necron and Tyranid release/rewrites ....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also miss the sense of fun the older games had.

40K takes itself way way too seriously these days, as does GW in general.

I think i liked the setting better when there were in-jokes and cultural/movie references in it

I liked GW better when it was run by gamers, for gamers. These days it doesn't even try to hide the fact that their bottom line is the be all and end all.

A comparable situation would be 4th Ed D and D and Paizo's Pathfinder.

Pathfinder is made by gamers, for gamers, with community support and betatesting.

4th Ed is a cashflow vehicle, where you have to but a bunch of books to even have access to the core classes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Old GW would gladly draw inspiration from movies, books and other neat scifi.

New GW will sue anyone who looks at GW product sideways

No I'd say around the Armageddon campaign was the golden age (I'm guessing that was about 10 years ago now).

These days people are too scared to buy finecast to use actual HQ models.
The majority of purchases are made off of ebay.
You go to a tournament and see 3 armies... if you're lucky.
Prices are skyrocketing.
Lots of plays are using Mantic instead of GW models.
Lots and lots of people are abandoning GW for Privateer Press and other games.
GW is alienating every company that makes MODELS GW DOESN'T MAKE.

This is the black plague of 40k.

I'd have to say that it's the Golden Age of 40K. Ever since the release of the Ork Stompa, it has revitalized me into getting back into building GW stuff. Ever since the Stompa was released, I find myself rushing down to my local hobby store to pick up one of the latest and greatest plastic kit released. Their plastic kits are top notch. They fit great and have razor sharp detail. Their kits are pretty awesome even though they can be Ludicrously overpriced Tiny Replicas(LoTR). But for me, price wise doesn't concern me too much since I'm not buying them to build an army. I don't need 3 Razorwings, 5 Ravagers, and lots, and lots of Infantry. I just want one of each.

Their Finecast stuff, can be hit and miss. Fortunately for me, it's been a hit.

I don't think I've played long enough to know how it has been historically, but I feel like the Necron launch was pretty awesomely done all around with nice kits, nice rules, etc.

Geez you guys - this thread is three years old!!!!

Mod incoming in 3...2...1....

3 year old thread?

Holy fracking Necro Batman!

The golden age? To me that would be when GW have EVERY codex designed for the current edition........

we are constantly playing old dexes and it sucks ballz....

At the start of 3E everyone was basically on the same page due the brb having all the codexes in it to start.. that was nice but no golden age really.....

For future reference please do not dig up three year old threads. If you do wish to refer to such a thread then start a new thread and throw in a link to the old one.

We'll let this one run for now however and see how it goes, please bear in mind the posting times if you quote/reference/similar an old post.

Ta.

A comparable situation would be 4th Ed D and D and Paizo's Pathfinder.

Pathfinder is made by gamers, for gamers, with community support and betatesting.

Oh really? Is that why Pathfinder wrecked guys with Monsterous Race characters?

Nice to ompare the three year old opinions and the current ones where errrr? No they're all the same.

Carmachu has even con to the bother of updating us on his/her POV. (it appear to be the same BTW) ;D

Golden age of GW - no.

Nicer (plastic) toys though.

I hate the price increases and bad publicity GW generates...

But keep this in mind-

At least it is not Hasbro.

And suffice to say, 40k is probably at a higher echelon of popularity than it has ever been in.

If going by the comic book comparisons I'd say GW is in the 90's now.

BrookM wrote:If going by the comic book comparisons I'd say GW is in the 90's now.

Matt Ward:The Rob Liefeld of Games Workshop.

Ascalam wrote:I also miss the sense of fun the older games had.

40K takes itself way way too seriously these days, as does GW in general.

I think i liked the setting better when there were in-jokes and cultural/movie references in it

I liked GW better when it was run by gamers, for gamers. These days it doesn't even try to hide the fact that their bottom line is the be all and end all.

A comparable situation would be 4th Ed D and D and Paizo's Pathfinder.

Pathfinder is made by gamers, for gamers, with community support and betatesting.

4th Ed is a cashflow vehicle, where you have to but a bunch of books to even have access to the core classes.

Whoa, whoa, way to bring an even more contentious argument into a contentious argument.

I think there are parallels, but the two companies are ultimately facing different issues. D&D is still by gamers, for gamers, but the corporate schlongs at Hasbro expect monetary results and dictate the marketing and business end of the game. In GW, practically everything seems to be designed from the ground up to sell models, with the rules coming secondary, period. Both are affected by the corporate heads, but GW seems to be completely dictated by them. Which seems about right for a company whose flagship game centers around an iron-fisted, fascist empire that ruthlessly exterminates all opposing viewpoints and competition.

D&D's primary concern seems to be "How can we please to a fanbase with wildly varying tastes?" while GW's primary concern is "How do we get people to buy more models?" Both end up with increased sales but WotC's efforts (not their Hasbro overlords) seem at least a little more genuine to me, if misguided.

And if you're going to knock D&D 4e, at least get your facts straight. 4e is playable right out of the box with just a single PHB, just like 3e was. Supplements increase character options but are in no way required. It's too bad that they couldn't fit all of 3e's "core" classes in there, but since that was a byproduct of the fighter getting more than a two-page class writeup, I'm happy with it.

I have to say, before I started coming on dakka and mixing with people that are crazy about the hobby, I didn't realise there was a bizarre sub culture of people that were so into the hobby they get rage that appears to be symptomatic with some sort of mental illness, but the last 12 months have been pretty eye opening for a casual player like me (Played with minis as a kid, left them alone for 12 years, quit the military, got back into it)

I think GW have definitely made some feth ups, WD is truly awful nowadays (my missus got me a 12 month sub last Christmas and they literally all sucked), finecast really does seem to be a genuine feth up and not merely the rage of the nerds that spend too much time with the hobby (what the hell is wrong with plastic anyway?!) and.. well.. that's all that's glaringly obvious to me.

But, like I said, I dont spend that much time painting and playing, I love the story and the books and the art and on that side, things have just got better and better, the range of mini's and paints and books and audio is fantastic, I've bought 3 or 4 of them and while they are pretty dear, they are bang on. Ravens flight is made of win.

The point is, I agree with the OP, and its just down to good old capitalism. If it makes money, they release it. The range and choice that we enjoy now is unrivalled, and I think that's pretty cool.

And also, people keep whinging about the price, bear in mind I'm a noob and hadn't even heard of all the other companies a year back, they are all bloody expensive! I think Mantic is the only one that is hugely cheaper, and as I said, I only play SM and Dwarves, so I don't buy mantic anyway.

I spend maybe £250 a year on the hobby, I'm fine with the way things are. I'm not fussy and happily buy off the internet or ebay and as a result get the GW stuff I want relatively cheaply. I love the choice and the range, and if they just scrapped finecast and made everything in good old plastic, I would be as happy as I think I could be with the hobby that I don't really spend that much time playing.

Noob question, everything I have got in plastic is great, so.. why make finecast at all? Why not just make all the metal kits and metal everything in plastic? I never saw a plastic model covered in holes....

40k is not in a Golden Age. Games Workshop management is merely reaping the benefits of previously laid foundations.

Advances in Plastic Kits: The bulk of the development on their plastic kit process was done in 3rd Edition. Sure there have been advances and optimizations in 5th Edition, but these have been incremental, rather than revolutionary. When the 3rd Ed Space Marine box came out, it was revolutionary, rather than evolutionary. The MKII Rhino was light-years ahead of the MKI Rhino that it replaced. The Falcon and Vyper broke new ground in terms of what was achievable by the GW plastics team due to inclusion of clear parts and curved surfaces. The MKII Landspeeder - while admittedly a poor kit, paved the ground for thin hull construction. Kits from that era are still made and sold in vast quantities - this includes the Rhino and all derivatives, the Land Raider and all derivatives, and the Falcon and all derivatives. Much of the plastic infantry range from that era are still sold. 4th Edition brought large monsters in plastic, starting with the WH Giant and the Carnifex. Pretty much all the shiny new plastics are merely outgrowths of past R and D. The latest transition to Finecast was meant to be a revolution but ended up being a great leap backwards, due to inconsistent quality, poor durability and higher price.

Ruleset: IMHO, WH40k's ruleset as it currently stands is regressive. It is akin to a Windows box that has seen too many patches, has a gak-load of driver conflicts and needs a reformat. When 3rd Edition came out, it was a total departure from 2nd Edition and streamlined the game immensely, revolutionizing gameplay. A black tome was issued with tide-me-over armies. Errata was issued in White Dwarf. 4th Edition was saddled with the mandate to fix balance problems from the previous edition while maitaining support for all the legacy codexes. It was and still is an impossible task. This requirement was also mandated for 5th Edition. Until they do away with this reverse compatibility OR issue a massive tome of errata at the start of a new edition, the ruleset is going to be built on the unsteady foundations of the legacy codexes.

Event Support: Event support peaked in 4th Edition with multiple Games Days, Conflicts and GTs. North America now gets one instead of a dozen events. Non-purchasable prize support (trophies) peaked in 3rd Edition. The events teams have been downsized if not outright dismissed.

White Dwarf: White Dwarf hasn't been relavent for two editions.

Painting: 'Eavy Metal peaked in early 5th Edition. The studio paint these days is decidedly shabby in comparison to the glory days of 4th-early 5th Edition. Just take a look at the painting on the covers of new products - especially the Necrons. Gone are the skillful blends and NMM of the past. Once, 'Eavy Metal was the standard by which painting excellence was held to. These days, 'Eavy Metal gets by with harsh edge highlights and washed metalics. It is sad that GW has alowed the hobby community at large to eclipse the skill of their studio painters.

Pricing: On models still in production from 3rd Edition, you get on average a +50% to 150% price hike for the same model. More if the model transitioned from metal to Finecast.

This in mind, I'd say the bulk of the improvements were made in the 3rd Edition era, making that, the Golden Age, peaking around the middle of 4th and 40k has been in stagnation, if not decline ever since. The HOBBY, on the other hand is in a golden age. Never before has there been so much choice in how you spend your gaming dollar, from Warmahordes to Infinity, to Mantic, to Wyrd. It is a great time to be a miniatures enthusiast.

Hey, I thought it was pretty good thread that could be a continued discussion. Like a fine wine coming out of the cellar. There is some vintage stuff to be found on the back pages. Didn't mean to offend anybody (altho I haven't quite figured out what would be offensive). And besides, I didn't have a chance to respond to the thread originally. Always open to input on the etiquette.

Meanwhile, got a few responses, eh?

The golden age is always in the past; mine was Vehicle Manual/Battle Manual-era Rogue Trader.

Ouze wrote:Matt Ward:The Rob Liefeld of Games Workshop.

This is nevertheless true. Though Mat Ward can probably draw better feet.

Ascalam wrote:I also miss the sense of fun the older games had.

40K takes itself way too seriously these days, as does GW in general.

I think I liked the setting better when there were in-jokes and cultural/movie references in it

I liked GW better when it was run by gamers, for gamers. These days it doesn't even try to hide the fact that their bottom line is the be all and end all.

A comparable situation would be 4th Ed D and D and Paizo's Pathfinder.

Pathfinder is made by gamers, for gamers, with community support and beta testing.

4th Ed is a cashflow vehicle, where you have to but a bunch of books to even have access to the core classes.

This is comment right on the money. The reason why the past was the golden age was because there essentially was a greater emphasis on the game and the hobby. Up until the end of third, GW was a company run by gamers/hobbyists for gamers/hobbyists. The sad thing is that GW is now a company run by Mark Wells/IP Lawyers for Mark Wells/IP Lawyers.

There is a small silver lining IMO that Keezus already pointed out. Whilst GW is no longer in its heyday, the hobby itself is definitively in a golden era especially due to the great small scale resin companies like AnvilIndustries, Chapterhouse, Maxmini and Microarts Studio. At the moment I’m building my “dream army” (pre heresy and gothic SciFi inspired army) and using primarily third party products.

Heading that way, but not there yet. Rules are getting better, but invalance is still a serious issue on the rules front. On the miniatures front, plastic molds are still expensive so alternative plastice models are still limited, how ever they are becoming more common.

A remarkably subjective question, and it really depends on what you want out of the game.

If you value somewhat-more-affordable figures, encouraged creativity and a general freewheeling "openness" and tongue-in-cheek flavor to the culture of the game, then the golden age was back in the late 80's, early 90's.

If you can afford the hobby at current rates, and your value is on a more easily playable ruleset, highly customizable, high-quality kits and an absolutely emense selection of models, then 40k is more golden now than it's ever been.

GW is well past its golden age in all things. The game simply doesn't have the fun element in it now, it seems horribly grimdark and all that nonsense. Years ago there was more emphasis on having fun and the hobby element, army books were more flexible. Look at 2nd edition Codex Chaos, it had the cultist and demon/beastman army lists packed in the back.

The game today is too inflexible, requires too many expensive figures and is increasingly eliminating creativity encouraging the use of plastic kits for everything from the tabletop itself to terrain.

I might be inclined to agree if I didn't play Xenos, but model wise yeah, most definitely.

Choice in the GW hobby is an illusion.

Multi-part models alow for SOME customization, but the range of posability is limited if you want to maintain any sort of natural looking poses. The idea that you could make a unique army out the stock kits is a joke. More wargear and gubbinz are included, but add them at your peril, lest your model look like a guy with a lot of unnaturally protuding chunky glued-on gear. Wargear selection included with models is also a trap, as only a few of the included options will see any play.

The SM plastic captain is the epitome of the problem with "customizable" GW multiparts. The caped body goes only ONE way on the provided legs. The arms have limited range of natural movement and can either have weapons at rest or at arms. Head swappable. Most weapons included will never see use. Stormbolter? Single lightning claw? Sure, if you split the parts and use them on other kits you get a lot of utility, but out of the box, that customized SM captain looks a lot like the other guys customized SM captain from the same box.

The same problem is reflected in the codexes, with each book having at least 30% sub-par or unusable entries.

This kind of approach inevitably isn't good as the customer is forced between knowingly taking sub-par models, go to great lengths to sculpt and/or convert with 3rd party parts OR build a generic multipart army the looking the same as everyone else, and take the efficient entries in each book, and have the same army composition as everyone else.

GW says they're giving you choice, but in reality, its "the GW way" or the highway.

Is 40k in a golden age? No, that was 2nd edition. That was the height of creativity and originality amongst GW hobbyists.

Is war gaming in a golden age? Maybe. We'll only know in the future.

I feel 40k's golden age still lies on the horizon, the fanbase is steadily increasing despite some long-time fans leaving the hobby. If the quality of the models are excellent right now, if the next edition of rulebooks can be better than 5th, we'd be on the right track. The only problem I see a lot is a lack of customization in many armies, many people merely spam their force's best unit and that is what makes the game seem worse than it is.

I'm not entirely sure how you can say that the fanbase has been expanding when GW has lost some 30% of its customer base in the past 10 years.

infinite_array wrote:I'm not entirely sure how you can say that the fanbase has been expanding when GW has lost some 30% of its customer base in the past 10 years.

GW is gaining a lot of younger, more dedicated fanatics with deep-pocketed parents. Hopefully, they don't consume the market and force GW to cater to what they want, but it's not bad for GW's marketing.

Squidmanlolz wrote:GW is gaining a lot of younger, more dedicated fanatics with deep-pocketed parents.

Gaining - Yes.
Retaining - No.

The SM plastic captain is the epitome of the problem with "customizable" GW multiparts. The caped body goes only ONE way on the provided legs. The arms have limited range of natural movement and can either have weapons at rest or at arms. Head swappable. Most weapons included will never see use. Stormbolter? Single lightning claw? Sure, if you split the parts and use them on other kits you get a lot of utility, but out of the box, that customized SM captain looks a lot like the other guys customized SM captain from the same box.

Actually..... I'm buying some bitz right now, and the Storm Bolter is going on my Deathwatch captain, and the Single LC is the very basis for my plastic Lukas the Trickster model(along with Assault legs). But I agree, I don't think I'd ever buy a full Captain box if I weren't parting it out.

The golden age was 2nd edition (warts in all) in my opinion as far as content.

Some of the coolest parts of 40K fluff/setting got recognition in some form (genestealer cults for example) and I really liked the "feel" of the game as far as having wargear cards, etc.

I also enjoyed the mission cards and how they made it so each player could have a seperate obective(s).

It felt like a miniatures-rpg hybrid and despite the fact that it was clunky at times, every game felt like an event.




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As far as models and terrain, we are definitely in a golden age NOW.

Man I really like the models and terrain. 9 out of every 10 sculpts that come out of the GW rooms is a winner. Finecast aside...ahem, it still scares me to buy a finecast 10 months later. But man as far as any army I'll even consider playing I'm always drooling to see what's going to be posted next. Painting's gotten better and better, and with the net it's so much easier to share techniques and critiques. The industry as a whole (whether it's your opinion that GW leads them or not) is pushing eachother to do better and better work. Artists have to be on their ball, like they've never had to be in the past, because their work is being recorded with 12 MP cameras.

The rules have their problems, but they did in earlier additions as well.

Rules wise, we'll never be in a golden age. Models wise, I think we're in the minaturenaissance.

MightyGodzilla wrote: 9 out of every 10 sculpts that come out of the GW rooms is a winner.

I think this is a little high tbh.

7 out of ten perhaps...

One of those ten will be so eye-hurtingly ugly that it will take at least a year to allow the brain to accept it, if ever.

One will be so awesome as to be unforgettable.

The rest will ride the curve, with more decent sculpts than lousy ones.

even tho i only just started on xmas, my bro had been showin me his space marines and eldar forces since i was 5 and now i join, the 40K universe is better than ever! so much choice and possibilities - and the models are way better. although we don't know the future - looking at the past - yeah, we're in the golden age.

infinite_array wrote:I'm not entirely sure how you can say that the fanbase has been expanding when GW has lost some 30% of its customer base in the past 10 years.

Can you provide a citation for this, I'm curious if it's true.

Allow me to quote myself:

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:I found a pretty depressing graph last year. It is a Google Trends representation of GW's internet footprint, based on the average worldwide traffic of the term "Games Workshop" (redone here by me):



When one uses the term "Warhammer" instead (which of course is less GW-Warhammer spesific) one gets this graph:



...which shows the same decline while simultaneously illustrating how small the miniatures gaming scene is: the 2008 spike (A to E) is directly related to Warhammer Online and the buzz it generated in mainstream media, and the F spike is related to the Wrath of Heroes annoucement.

It is really important to turn this slow fall around, both for the sake og GW itself and the fantasy/scifi miniatures gaming hobby in general. It may not be a direct parallell to sales and hobby mainstream presence, but it is not a good trend. It also doesn't look like GW as a brand name really gets all that much help from its computer game licences - I suspect most computer game players relate Warhammer Online to Mythic and Wrath of Heroes to Bioware/EA...

"40k" doesn't work as a trend search (most references are to the number) but "warhammer 40,000" nets this:



which also has a slow decline...I do wonder what the 2011 spike is related to...it is to late the be the teaser and to early to be the rumours of cancellation.

The 2011 spike is likely the Space Marine FPS.

Finecast I would say or the fps SM game. mid year around the same time -shrugs-

Most have already been said by Carmachu, Howard A Treesong and Keezus. I would just like to mention that from model and creativity point of view in the old days you would have real options because GW was open to use other manufacturers parts, they also had bitz catalogue, and WD and studio Heavy Metals stimulated creativity in a way that is light years away from what you see today. It was a OPEN activity back then.

Today miniatures have details for the sake of details, skulls everywhere and even if multipart most of the times its all too streamlined, And I'm not even mentioning that fine cast destroys all the fun in any good model... so for me 40k is not in the golden age, not silver or copper at this moment in GW time I believe 40k is stuck inside a foolish marketing strategy and does not move a inch outside it. Its a CLOSED activity and it will eventually die.

The models are mostly fantastic, and still better than 90% of the other stuff on the market.

The game is the most fun and balanced it's ever been.

There are more good alternatives out there than ever before, forcing GW to step up their game.

Whether it's a golden age depends on your perspective and exactly what you value, but IMO for the last fifteen+ years it's been almost exclusively up. The big missteps (8th ed WH, losing bitz service, Finecast) have been outweighed by all the across the board improvements in rules and models.

Funny that you may think that we're in a Golden age. IMHO, I think Games workshop's sales might be at a golden age standard, but when they ar eputting out, not so much.

I left 40k (the game, I love the lore too much), quite recently because I've found that Games workshop does not care much for balancing, and that they only put their finger on space marines and their equivalent. The scheduled releases for this year are terrifying, and it proves further that Warhammer 40k is simply just Marinehammer 40k.

I was hopeful for Tau this year, but it seems I need to wait another year.

I'm not sure we are living in a 'Golden Age' in terms of minis or rules, for various reasons as have been stated by others.

But I think we are somewhat blessed today with the way that wargaming is ingratiating itself into modern culture much more. Where previously, wargaming was solely the preserve of the weak and nerdy, it's carries a lot less social stigma than it ever used to - there are many more demographics playing these days. We have a fair number of active female gamers participating on these forums and that is something that was almost unheard of (at least outside of RPGs) when I was a lad.

Not only that but there is much more of a cross-over between wargaming and video gaming, inasmuch as recent titles like Dawn of War and Space Marine seem to be drawing in players where they wouldn't have otherwise had exposure to the hobby - this can only be a good thing if the total number of gamers expands. In short, I think wargaming is slowly on the cusp of moving out of the basement and into the light a little more.

filbert wrote:I'm not sure we are living in a 'Golden Age' in terms of minis or rules, for various reasons as have been stated by others.

But I think we are somewhat blessed today with the way that wargaming is ingratiating itself into modern culture much more. Where previously, wargaming was solely the preserve of the weak and nerdy, it's carries a lot less social stigma than it ever used to - there are many more demographics playing these days. We have a fair number of active female gamers participating on these forums and that is something that was almost unheard of (at least outside of RPGs) when I was a lad.

Not only that but there is much more of a cross-over between wargaming and video gaming, inasmuch as recent titles like Dawn of War and Space Marine seem to be drawing in players where they wouldn't have otherwise had exposure to the hobby - this can only be a good thing if the total number of gamers expands. In short, I think wargaming is slowly on the cusp of moving out of the basement and into the light a little more.

I have personally seen no such thing.

The people at the local game store is still the exact same demographic, the tone of forums is still the same and I still have yet to ever see a chick playing at a tournament.

It may be getting more popular, I'm guessing it has to do with other games intriguing people (Warma/Hordes, Flames, Mali), but it's still the same kind of people playing.

' Golden Age ' was several years ago before my GW went one-man store and was fully staffed with guys that didnt spout GW propoganda like robots

The day Andy Chambers left Games Workshop is the day that (the golden age) the music died.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NygEEH4jkho

I have to disagree. Or at the very least it's Golden Age has passed in Prince George.Just...2-3 years ago before the price hikes there were a lot of 40k players. While my particular club still fancy's 40k. I think if you rounded up the wargamers and did a survey. Well over 60% now play Privateer Press. Ironically as just before the price hikes the game flourished. Most of us had built armies before the hikes and have every intention of still putting out investment to play. I seem to recall somebody telling me the tourney turnout has been low.

On a personal note it certainly isn't with me. My beloved Space Wolves went missing when I moved out from my parent's and with them gone. I've focused on my other armies. My Beastmen sure have flourished since then, And my Harad are quickly reaching 800 points. So i'm definitely still purchasing GW product when I can affort it.

But I simply cannot afford to build another army from scratch. At least not now.

BuFFo wrote:Is 40k in a golden age? No, that was 2nd edition. That was the height of creativity and originality amongst GW hobbyists.

CT GAMER wrote:The golden age was 2nd edition (warts in all) in my opinion as far as content.

Oh, come on. Take off the rose-tinted glasses and remember what it was really like: The unpainted forces, the cheesy combinations, the uber-characters stomping everyone and everything, the crappy home-made terrain...

Great hobbyists then are still great hobbyists now. The people making amazing terrain then are still making it. The people with amazing army ideas and brilliant painting then still have that creative streak. GW has done nothing to stifle anyones creativity or originality, they've just given those less gifted of us a way to still have a great looking battlefield.

NAVARRO wrote:Today miniatures have details for the sake of details, skulls everywhere and even if multipart most of the times its all too streamlined

Wait, so they're too detailed, and too streamlined?

You can't have both.

NAVARRO wrote:fine cast destroys all the fun in any good model

I'm sorry? The casting material destroys the fun in the model?

I like the current core rules,

Not perfect, but vehicles being more survivable and everyone getting 4+ cover means power armored armies aren't as unbalanced as they were in previous editions. Non-mechable armies like Tau and Nids suffer some, but they could be fixed with better a better codex.

Codex releases are hit or miss. Its unbelieveable how the same guy can make a decent necron book, which is competitive but not over the top, and also make Grey Knights. I don't like the business model of changing rules or over/under powering certain units to push sales, but it is what it is.

'Oh, come on. Take off the rose-tinted glasses and remember what it was really like: The unpainted forces, the cheesy combinations, the uber-characters stomping everyone and everything, the crappy home-made terrain...'


So, just like today then

Necro? This thread is from 2009

Ascalam wrote:

'Oh, come on. Take off the rose-tinted glasses and remember what it was really like: The unpainted forces, the cheesy combinations, the uber-characters stomping everyone and everything, the crappy home-made terrain...'


So, just like today then

lol, yeah!

It won't be a golden age until GW manages to make a codex for every army every edition. It's not even asking that much- roughly 90-100 pages for fourteen armies, and statlines and images take up a reasonable chunk of that.

Golden age will be when GW wakes up and listens to its fan base - like blizzard and other companies do

We make them their money, if they wanna keep making money they need to make us happy

CT GAMER wrote:The golden age was 2nd edition (warts in all) in my opinion as far as content.

Some of the coolest parts of 40K fluff/setting got recognition in some form (genestealer cults for example) and I really liked the "feel" of the game as far as having wargear cards, etc.

I also enjoyed the mission cards and how they made it so each player could have a seperate obective(s).

It felt like a miniatures-rpg hybrid and despite the fact that it was clunky at times, every game felt like an event.




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As far as models and terrain, we are definitely in a golden age NOW.

I totally agree. The games I played in 2 ed were the most memorable games I have ever played.

The mission cards really added atmosphere and ensured that every game was different.

I would love to see the cards returned in 6th ed.

If models were not available you kit bashed and converted. It was still cheap enough to do it back then.

The focus was on fun and creativity back then.

The models are better now days and far superior so they are having a Goldern age I guess.

For 40K as a whole the Goldern age has well and truly, been and gone sadly.