They will definitely fit into a 1750 pts list.

My hypothesis is that they can take down each cc oriented army, but I'll struggle vs fast mech armies.

So what does the full list look like?

Shrike
3x10 Assault Termies
2x10 Tacs

Looks like a lot of fun. You could drop Shrike for 2x10 gate terminators if you feel like teleporting instead.

wuestenfux wrote:...but I'll struggle vs fast mech armies.

This conjures great images of Termies huffing and puffing along in bulky armor, eating Eldar dust. "Wait guys, come back! We haven't purged you yet!"

Seriously, the 30 CC Term list looks nasty. Would 20 plus some more mobility work better overall though? I mean, 20 will still ruin almost anyone's day, right? Coupled with some melta Speeders... I'd fear that.

i think the 30 is a bit overkill.... maby 20 and gome other gubbins... like an assuly squad, or just stuff the army and get nobs in mega armour,

ORKS!!

or if you insist on marines 30 is a bit costly too, but if you realy want 30 go for it, could be a good giggle to see if they let you,

Savnock wrote:Seriously, the 30 CC Term list looks nasty. Would 20 plus some more mobility work better overall though? I mean, 20 will still ruin almost anyone's day, right? Coupled with some melta Speeders... I'd fear that.

Combined Death- & Ravenwing anyone?
I like assault terminators.
I like melta speeders.
If one could make the terminators more flexible, it seems like a good thing. Because by themselves, they suck. Shooty ones are better, since they have a much bigger threat range.

So with either expensive, but mighty LR or gating around (imho only interesting for shooty terminators) or Shrike (the slowest version), personally, I would like it. It seems hard to play because of the low model count and, adding to that, the lack of troop choices.

But since my gaming group just agreed on the house rule of making Belial a character for the new SM codex (allowing terminators to be taken as troop choices and exchanging the default rule with both stubborn and deathwing assault, which seems a wee bit too mighty, will probably need some balance), I'll give it a try anyway.

80 Slugga Boyz, 20 Nobs and 12 Deffkotas, then bring in the trukkboyz to scavenge all that hacked-up armor.

Well, I played the following list with some variants winning 3 RTTs in a row:

Librarian w/ terminator armor, storm shield
10 Termies 2/ cyclone x2
10 Assault Termies w/ thunder hammer x10
10 Tacticals
10 Tacticals
10 Scouts

1500 pts.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I played the following list with some variants winning 3 RTTs in a row:

Librarian w/ terminator armor, storm shield
10 Termies 2/ cyclone x2
10 Assault Termies w/ thunder hammer x10
10 Tacticals
10 Tacticals
10 Scouts

1500 pts.

Your not allowed that many 2+ saves. Its in p345 of the BGB...... >.>

The ultra heavy termie crap is comming as soon as people realise how nasty they are, like a few people here been saying since the SM codex came out.

Shrike + 10 assults is king of the hill. LR with fleeting assult terminators are second best.

I disagree, loads of termies are vunerable to weapons like vindicators & fire prisms.

As there are no tanks to occupy them with, they will soley shoot at the termies & being so expensive will die in droves. The assault termies do mitigate this but then youve got no decent ranged ability with eldar fire prisms simply running circles against assault marines. 2x Cyclones are quite good in a 10man squad.

isnt 30 termies too many elite choices?

The Angry Commissar wrote:isnt 30 termies too many elite choices?

No 3x10 Termies are allowed in standard games.

Razerous wrote:I disagree, loads of termies are vunerable to weapons like vindicators & fire prisms.

As there are no tanks to occupy them with, they will soley shoot at the termies & being so expensive will die in droves. The assault termies do mitigate this but then youve got no decent ranged ability with eldar fire prisms simply running circles against assault marines. 2x Cyclones are quite good in a 10man squad.

10 Terminators make a pretty large footprint on the board, and led by shrike, will be fleeting all over the place multi-charging anything in their path. Very nasty. The 3+ invulnerable save (of TH/SS) also mitigates their vulnerability to AP2 quite a bit.

Termies are too expensive to play unless you're playing Deathing/Ravenwing with teleport homers on bikes with melta speeders.
Smurfy Termies cost too many points because they have to take 2 troop choices.
I guess one alternative is getting infiltrating scouts then have points to throw the termies in LRs and wreak havok on people.
Though GKT are soooo much better for what? i think just 6 pts, yeah... and they have semi-psychic hoods (Aegis), S6, power weapons at WS5, leaders can be I5 as well. You really should be playing Grey Knights if you want REAL termies.
And the 2 troop choices you have to waste can be 10 pts a model with 5 man minimums. (better than SM scouts I believe and makes up a lil' for more 6 pts more a model)
LRs are also available for transportation on this fine Inquisitorial day.
Not enough anti-tank? You can always throw chainfists at them with squad leaders.

whitedragon wrote:

Razerous wrote:I disagree, loads of termies are vunerable to weapons like vindicators & fire prisms.

As there are no tanks to occupy them with, they will soley shoot at the termies & being so expensive will die in droves. The assault termies do mitigate this but then youve got no decent ranged ability with eldar fire prisms simply running circles against assault marines. 2x Cyclones are quite good in a 10man squad.

10 Terminators make a pretty large footprint on the board, and led by shrike, will be fleeting all over the place multi-charging anything in their path. Very nasty. The 3+ invulnerable save (of TH/SS) also mitigates their vulnerability to AP2 quite a bit.

Again.. I disagree. A vindi will nuke on avarge 1/3 to 1/2 a assault termie team with a good chance of killing shrike aswell (if the sqaud is at all wounded w/ fewer models) that will make the points back for the vindi easily. If you get two shots off, well.. death time. With fire-prisms, the str 9 ap 2 blast is smaller but the tank is more mobile & can run around assault termies all day. It can fast-move over the top of them so unless you fil the entire board, hemming in wont be an option. Against termies with cyclone missile launchers.. a prism can out-range these weapons but the boards rarely offer enough space to make use of such a range advantage..Still, with a 5++ and having to allocate wounds onto the cyclone missile guys (due to have a only slightly unique squad) means they can get popped off fairly quickly.

Dooming banshees will eat shrike & co. May not win combat but for thier points will cripple the squad. With banshee masks & acrobatic they can just as happily eat a charge & deal the same amount of damage as they would charging in so shrike & fleeting is not a concern.

There are many many counters to a 'spam' type list, to do with termies.

I don't understand how a Vindicator could do any significant damage to a squad of assault terminators. Termies are on 1 1/2" bases and spaced 2" apart. A direct hit will get 3 and 1 might die on average. Nice shooting there Tex.

The key to the Termie heavy list is the support elements. Shrike has been talked about. Pedro is also good for his +1 attack (40 attacks on the charge WOW!). A Librarian is good to help negate psychic powers around the termies and to cast Null Zone which is a boon against possible tarpit units (Seer Council, Daemons, etc...). The librarian is also your best defense against a dual lash chaos list just pushing you back for the entire game. Attack Bikes can hunt down fast moving armor. A Thunderfire cannon can help thin out units as the termies approach. Both are cheap units to add to this list. I'm not sure 30 is the best option at 1750pts, 20 might do just as well and allow for more support units to help the 20 assault terminators.

Razerous wrote:Dooming banshees will eat shrike & co. May not win combat but for thier points will cripple the squad. With banshee masks & acrobatic they can just as happily eat a charge & deal the same amount of damage as they would charging in so shrike & fleeting is not a concern.

Might wanna redo your mathhammer there. 10 charging banshees will be lucky to get 3 dead terminators with Doom. They will most certainly not "happily eat a charge". Also, shrike does not have to lead the terminators to make them fleet. He makes the whole army fleet.

Razerous wrote: He makes the whole army fleet, regardless if he's on the board or not.

Added a bit for clarification.

Maxed Termies is an army I am working on now.

Fleeting termies coming out of LRC's is stupid.

Shrike and Khan on foot. Shrike goes with one squad of TH/SS termies, Khan goes with LC termies in LRC to give them furious assault.

First turn you can hit the enemy with 17 termies and 2 characters.

Good night.

There is no reason to just fill up on TH-SS, even if they are the resilience in that force. You might as well put in a few LCs for faster and more attacks. (hint: you just take the hits on the TH-SS ones)

The real joy of that army is that its 590 of your points, so you still have lots to do more. Like landraiders with more terminators, with fleet(thats usually a charge over the board in 1 turn) , Melta speeders, Tacticals/scouts etc.

whitedragon wrote:

Razerous wrote:Dooming banshees will eat shrike & co. May not win combat but for thier points will cripple the squad. With banshee masks & acrobatic they can just as happily eat a charge & deal the same amount of damage as they would charging in so shrike & fleeting is not a concern.

Might wanna redo your mathhammer there. 10 charging banshees will be lucky to get 3 dead terminators with Doom. They will most certainly not "happily eat a charge". Also, shrike does not have to lead the terminators to make them fleet. He makes the whole army fleet.

You got it right.

@razerous: There is a thread in Tactics called "10 th/ss terminators deepstrike in front of you". It's pretty helpful understanding how powerful the combination is. You do not hit that unit with special weapons (unless the special weapon is a C'Tan phase sword or a vortex grenade), because of the invul save. You torrent it or tarpit it. Plus banshees do not assault out of vehicles. Yet those terminators do.

Reecius wrote:Maxed Termies is an army I am working on now.

Fleeting termies coming out of LRC's is stupid.

Shrike and Khan on foot. Shrike goes with one squad of TH/SS termies, Khan goes with LC termies in LRC to give them furious assault.

First turn you can hit the enemy with 17 termies and 2 characters.

Good night.

17+2 does not sound like "max terminators", but it is pretty powerful. I figure a real max terminator thing will be great against prevalent powerbuilds using other expensive units like nob bikers, nidzilla and maybe even seer council. Yet a middle tier army using a lot of cheap speed bumps might actually win most objective grabbing missions, because you have a lot of points in few units, which then will be slowed down. And a more flexible army might target your very few and weakly defended troop choices (unless we're talking 'ard boys point level here). So it is not a surefire plan. But a good one. Personally, I'd stick with the 20-terminator idea for <1850pts.

Lordhat wrote:

Razerous wrote: He makes the whole army fleet, regardless if he's on the board or not.

Added a bit for clarification.

lol. Dont quote my name when your not actually quoting me, Your quoting whitedragon.

My point being - with the whole fleeting shrike & termies - is that if you kindly look at the acrobatic rule given to the banshees by an exarch, it bestowes the counter-attack USR.

This means (assuming they pass that LD test) if charged, when coupled with the banshee mask rules, they can happily recieve a charge to little detriment to the amount of damage they will put out . Ive changed my previous wording slightly so its a bit more obvious what I was trying to put across. Ofcource said termies would hopefully be doomed if they were so close to a banshee squad.
Shrike will generally lead somthing and will eventually be on foot meaning he will, if hes not tied in combat for the entire game (a possibility), be at risk from str 8+ blast templates. In a terminator based list.. those shots wouldnt go to waste being directed at shrike - that was the context of my point.

As for the whole, banshees charging doomed assault termies... the termies will loose one model (i think) from the shuriken pistol volley (if not needing to fleet) then a couple to the banshees and another one to the executioner wielding exarch. The returning attacks shouldnt level the banshees and they may have to take a LD test with some negative modiyfers. If they dont run, they stay in CC killing atleast one more termie in your assault phase. Theyve now done thier points worth in damage. My mathhammer is rough by i feel that if somone actually does the mathhammer, ill be right.

Im also not concidering the possibility of a failed LD save on the termies side due to the warshout. Its cheap enough to always get at 5pts and it will occasionally work, improving damage.

As basing termies on large bases.. if ive been following the threads correcty.. theres procs & cons to basing them on large/regular bases. For example while they may be less at risk to templates they are more at risk to deep-strikes & mishaps especailly with full 10man teams - this I would hazard is more of a risk. Unless you wanna magnetise your termies feet....

As for special weapons & termies.. fire-prism shots against tacs & landraiders would be a better call (unless you field bright lances for the latter) so termies do rate further down the priority tree but a focoused blast will do more points in damage to termies in cover than marines in cover. Banshees dont count as 'special weapons".. thier just a type of offensive CC choice. Would do better than any of the others for the points, concidering the need to make a silly amount of wounds vs a 3+ invunerable. In h2h neways. Shinning spears could level a sqaud on a charge, if accompanied by an autarch but thats very expensive, will still fail against that 3++ save and shinning spears are just a waste of time. Viable im sure, somhow.

all well and good, untill you fight against khorne daemon armies.
massed power wep attacks will do serious damage.

need some form of shooting / mobility aswell.

JD21290 wrote:all well and good, untill you fight against khorne daemon armies.
massed power wep attacks will do serious damage.

need some form of shooting / mobility aswell.

Second that. Your Termies will die a quick bloody death to Bloodletters and the like. Even Flamers will make your day suck.

This like many other "gimmick" armies is a rock/paper/scissors proposition. You'll own some armies and get owned by others.

Razerous wrote:My point being - with the whole fleeting shrike & termies - is that if you kindly look at the acrobatic rule given to the banshees by an exarch, it bestowes the counter-attack USR.

This means (assuming they pass that LD test) if charged, when coupled with the banshee mask rules, they can happily recieve a charge to little detriment to the amount of damage they will put out . Ive changed my previous wording slightly so its a bit more obvious what I was trying to put across. Ofcource said termies would hopefully be doomed if they were so close to a banshee squad.
Shrike will generally lead somthing and will eventually be on foot meaning he will, if hes not tied in combat for the entire game (a possibility), be at risk from str 8+ blast templates. In a terminator based list.. those shots wouldnt go to waste being directed at shrike - that was the context of my point.

As for the whole, banshees charging doomed assault termies... the termies will loose one model (i think) from the shuriken pistol volley (if not needing to fleet) then a couple to the banshees and another one to the executioner wielding exarch. The returning attacks shouldnt level the banshees and they may have to take a LD test with some negative modiyfers. If they dont run, they stay in CC killing atleast one more termie in your assault phase. Theyve now done thier points worth in damage. My mathhammer is rough by i feel that if somone actually does the mathhammer, ill be right.

The banshees will bounce off the termies, lose combat and run away, and the termies will then be free to charge something else in their turn. Doing "comparable damage in points" is irrelevant (and also untrue) because of the resilience of the 2+/3+ save. You are also saying two different things.

1) If the banshees shoot, then they charged, and kill 3 termies MAYBE if they are doomed. If not, they kill 2. Then, the termies swing back, reduce your squad to below half (or wipe it out if 1 or 2 terminators have lightning claws) you fail your leadership and run away and can't regroup.

2) If the Terminators charge, you counterattack and kill 3 termies MAYBE if they are doomed. If not, they kill 2. Then, the termies swing back, reduce your squad to below half (or wipe it out if 1 or 2 terminators have lightning claws) you fail your leadership and run away and can't regroup.

You can mitigate the running away by adding an Avatar, but then, you are spending about equal what the marine player is spending per terminator squad, if not a little more, and you still aren't countering him. This would hinge on the following:

1) You have a farseer with Doom.
2) You have an Avatar.

So you aren't really trading equal points anymore are you, making this a BAD DEAL. And what's worse, is since everybody fleets, you would really be hosed if the termies multi-charged your avatar and your banshees, because you would then probably lose both. It doesn't matter if shrike leads them or hides behind a rock the whole game, because the terminators can get the job done themselves.

And to make sure there is no confusion for anyone, the following army does not deepstrike (so bases are irrelevant) and does not use LRC's. It spreads 2 or 3 ten man terminator squads out and fleets them towards you as fast as they can, or infiltrates one of them even farther ahead and then fleets towards you as fast as they can, or outflanks and fleets towards you as fast as they can. Also, they will all have TH/SS, so your AP2 weapons will be only marginally more effective then your regular fire.

Hell, your best bet against the TH/SS terminators would be fortuned warlocks really, if you were playing eldar. Their 4+ fortuned save will negate the advantage of the TH, and their witchblades are the only weapons in the eldar CC arsenal that can put out enough wounds to get past the termies' 2+ save. The banshees and harlequins don't have high enough strength to cause enough wounds, even with Doom, and the striking scorpions don't have an INV to save them from the TH return swing.

Okay, what about a mechanized army like orks that can easily avoid even 30 terminators and just pea-shoot them to death/divide and conquer? With basically no shooting against mechanized lists, you'd have to dedicate an entire squad just to assault the transport, and then sit there warming their hands next to the fire, meanwhile the orks can charge as well as the other 2-3 units within charge range, or just run away.

Or Mech Eldar? Or Mech Dark Eldar? Or Nidzilla? Or Mech Tau?

whitedragon wrote:
The banshees will bounce off the termies, lose combat and run away, and the termies will then be free to charge something else in their turn. Doing "comparable damage in points" is irrelevant (and also untrue) because of the resilience of the 2+/3+ save. You are also saying two different things.

1) If the banshees shoot, then they charged, and kill 3 termies MAYBE if they are doomed. If not, they kill 2. Then, the termies swing back, reduce your squad to below half (or wipe it out if 1 or 2 terminators have lightning claws) you fail your leadership and run away and can't regroup.

2) If the Terminators charge, you counterattack and kill 3 termies MAYBE if they are doomed. If not, they kill 2. Then, the termies swing back, reduce your squad to below half (or wipe it out if 1 or 2 terminators have lightning claws) you fail your leadership and run away and can't regroup.

You can mitigate the running away by adding an Avatar, but then, you are spending about equal what the marine player is spending per terminator squad, if not a little more, and you still aren't countering him. This would hinge on the following:

1) You have a farseer with Doom.
2) You have an Avatar.

So you aren't really trading equal points anymore are you, making this a BAD DEAL. And what's worse, is since everybody fleets, you would really be hosed if the termies multi-charged your avatar and your banshees, because you would then probably lose both. It doesn't matter if shrike leads them or hides behind a rock the whole game, because the terminators can get the job done themselves.

And to make sure there is no confusion for anyone, the following army does not deepstrike (so bases are irrelevant) and does not use LRC's. It spreads 2 or 3 ten man terminator squads out and fleets them towards you as fast as they can, or infiltrates one of them even farther ahead and then fleets towards you as fast as they can, or outflanks and fleets towards you as fast as they can. Also, they will all have TH/SS, so your AP2 weapons will be only marginally more effective then your regular fire.

Hell, your best bet against the TH/SS terminators would be fortuned warlocks really, if you were playing eldar. Their 4+ fortuned save will negate the advantage of the TH, and their witchblades are the only weapons in the eldar CC arsenal that can put out enough wounds to get past the termies' 2+ save. The banshees and harlequins don't have high enough strength to cause enough wounds, even with Doom, and the striking scorpions don't have an INV to save them from the TH return swing.

Im a bit lost as your quoting the same kills for banshees shooting & charging as they would simply charging (being charged w/ counter-attack). No 2) is the worse options with the banshees dealing less damage (a little) and taking more damage from the termies +1 charge bonous.

Ive done the math a touch more fully.. and the shooting should kill .8 of a termie, the banshees another two and the exarch about 1.3 of a termie. Thats accumulates to four termies. The returning 6 with 12 attacks will hit 6 times, wound 5 times. 5 banshees die. By my count they now roll of a LD of 8 which is quite likely to be passed. In subsequent rounds of assault, the remaining banshees will make thier points back (rated at 200)

Thankfully an avatar was required at all in the mention & a farseer's doom has a range of 24"

Edit: Two cyclones is a nice amount of str 8 shots which can deal with lighter vehicles fine. Against eldar-vehicles.. the cover-saves & spirit stones will get to you but destroying them isnt unrealistic. The possible heavy weapons on the tacticals could also help with heavier tanks. Relatively mobile fleeting assault termies will annhilate any vehicle that gets immobilised/stunned once in charge range.. Theres also the risk of ignoring these guys in favour of the scary assault termies which is also a bad idea & id suggest running those previously mentioned banshees at the tacticals first which should get wiped 1st round of combat. . . in an ideal world.

Doom and a Bladestorm. Even better, Doom and a full broadside of Scatter Lasers.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I played the following list with some variants winning 3 RTTs in a row:

Librarian w/ terminator armor, storm shield
10 Termies 2/ cyclone x2
10 Assault Termies w/ thunder hammer x10
10 Tacticals
10 Tacticals
10 Scouts

1500 pts.

Are you sure that's 1500 points?

If the marines are base 170 then it comes exactly to 1500.

Lies.. 1480 (I costed the cyclones @ 40pts not the actual 30pts)


Doom + bladestorm is win. Doom & guide + bladestorm is better. Worth the 20pts if the chance to be put with shooty units.

Seriously?

My math must be screwed up at night then...

I edited for clarity, sorry.I think I was on the ball though 2.6 with doom. closer to 4 with guide thrown in aswell.

Here we go again.

Another silly idea for an army. Spam without thought is not a "tactic" or "scary".

30 assault terminator armies wont be winning games against anyone who knows what they're doing in 40k.

So you would try to pin enemy squads by deep striking termies all around them?

30 assault terminators

Just over 600 pts left to spend in an 1850 army and no troops, HQ, transport or utility bought in the army yet.

Be ready to be outmaneuvered and beaten by anyone not stupid enough to run headlong into your footslogging units.

Terrible idea.

Thing is.. whilst other people are spending points into transports and troops & things...alot of your points are spent into 2+/3++ models that are running towards you with pfists.

What do you do? There are 30 of them! Ha.. you can combat squad them if you really want, looking at the rules!

What do you do?

Shoot them with mass firepower?
Use your transports that you've bought to make sure the assault terminators never accomplish anything?
Play keep away and kill the minimal troop units and take some objectives that the termies cannot?
Run away from slow assaulters that cannot shoot back?(what inflicts more damage on the other unit during the course of a game?...10 assault terminators or a single heavy bolter attack bike?)
Tank shock them off the board with multiple vehicles escorting them off?
Pin them?
Take your pick.

Problem is you KNOW where the threat is here and you can focus on dealing with the threat. There is no misdirection and no speed.

This idea sucks.

The 2+ really really reeally makes the first choice.. difficult. It needs lots of fire. That fire will be charged shortly after. Mechenised fire (from tanks) wont cut it & from open-topped vehicles requires it to travel 6"

Transports are stunable. 30 assault termies are less viable than 10 termies & 20 assault termies.

Keep away how.. Transport are stunable.. & between them 30 termies can prevent an ever increasing threat range.

The attack bike, ofcourse - until it gets charged. Or it gets ignored. Or it gets shot at. A lone attack bike will die quickly. A lone terminator with 9 friends wont.

Tank shocking against space marines with powerfists doesnt seem like a wise idea.

Pinning requires wounds. Sniper rifles are good at this. Alot worse vs a 3+ save a LD9.

With a bit of tinkering its quite viable IMHO

transports arnt stunnable w/extra armor, an upgrade every mech army should have.

I put my money on any mech list over this.

That's a safe bet in 5th edition.

Likewise

Still.. there are 30 of them.

Let's consider what you've said here. Lets also consider what you've got in your 1850 when you've got 1200+ points wrapped up in terminators. What else have you in the list? Since you're powerhammering, I'm suspecting Lysander or Calgar leaving you with about 400 pts to dump into your compulsary troop choices. Really the only logical decision here is two full squads so that you can actually PLAY a multiple objective mission. 2 tac squads (tac squads over scouts because you might need SOMETHING that can shoot a gun) with some sort of heavy weapon each...maybe dual melta. Whatever points you have left will likely be dumped into the squads after you buy the initial 20 men....any single vehicle is basically bait for anti-armour that every army (except this one) has in abundance.
Lemme tell you why this is no more than a quaint idea to use locally and not really a tough build at all when you look at the big picture of the game.

Razerous wrote:The 2+ really really reeally makes the first choice.. difficult. It needs lots of fire. That fire will be charged shortly after. Mechenised fire (from tanks) wont cut it & from open-topped vehicles requires it to travel 6"

Not difficult at all. An Eldar list that Spams Guide/Doom and Scatterlaser Walkers supported by about 2-3 units of Bladestorming Dire Avengers would have a feild day with 30 assault terminators....A FEILD DAY! Especially if the DA's had Shimmersheild/Defend/Fortune to back them up. This isnt even Mechanised, and with the huge amounts of hordes that are taking the field nowadays...a very likely possibility to face.

Transports are stunable. 30 assault termies are less viable than 10 termies & 20 assault termies.

How do you stun transports with assault terminators on foot? We dont have enough points to put any of them in LR's? Two tactical squads are not a reliable way to shut down transports. Razorback spam would be a nightmare for you to handle with this. Waveserpents? Any Dark Eldar list?

Keep away how.. Transport are stunable.. & between them 30 termies can prevent an ever increasing threat range.

I think I 've just illustrated how wrong you are here. In fact, your terminators dont want to get anywhere near multiple vehicles...unless they think they can survive MULTIPLE tank shock tests that are going to escort them off of the board. 10 terminators is a hell of a reward for an opponents successful tank shock.

The attack bike, ofcourse - until it gets charged. Or it gets ignored. Or it gets shot at. A lone attack bike will die quickly. A lone terminator with 9 friends wont.

again, how are you going to charge something that is faster than you and knows how easily you can kill it in close combat? Even running, you will never get close enough to charg an attack bike...until late game. Also, a 40pt attack bike has A LOT more friends in an 1850 list than 1200 pts worth of terminators have.

Tank shocking against space marines with powerfists doesnt seem like a wise idea.

Sure it does? You wanna death or glory with a powerfist against a LR? A single LR can tank shot your units with little or no fear of anything. Even a 35pt rhino is a worthy risk considering you only have a 50% chance to penetrate...glancing wont stop it reliably, and even a pen could be risky. If you only contact a single model, you have ONE chance to stop the vehicle....and that's if you pass your leadership test in the first place.

Pinning requires wounds. Sniper rifles are good at this. Alot worse vs a 3+ save a LD9.

Leadership nine wouldnt be much of an issue if you have multiple units firing. As with multiple tank shocks, eventually you'll fail. With all the eggs in one basket, your failed leadership is disastrous. A bit of bad luck can ruin your game.

With a bit of tinkering its quite viable IMHO

Viable for what? Lash bends this idea over, Horde orks laughter can be heard even over the rattle of thier lootaz, Mech runs this off of the table, and any shooty eldar list (which is what they do anyway) beats it all to heck.

Razerous wrote:
Still.. there are 30 of them.

Not after 2 failed tank shock tests when facing a sisters drive-by list, then there are only 10.

Volume of fire still kills 2+/3++ models, and considering your anti tank either goes on foot or is just a couple meltas, I wouldn't hold my breath for the list. You can just use transports and speed bumps while you shoot each terminator unit at a time. I think I rather have a multiple LR based terminators list instead, with just units of 5's and plenty ranged support.

Razerous wrote:
Again.. I disagree. A vindi will nuke on avarge 1/3 to 1/2 a assault termie team with a good chance of killing shrike aswell (if the sqaud is at all wounded w/ fewer models) that will make the points back for the vindi easily. If you get two shots off, well.. death time.

Any SM player that sees something like a vindicator on the other side of the table and doesn't spread out deserves what happens to them. Considering coherency rules and the size of the terminator base, the 5" blast marker should rarely hit more than 2 terminator models. For example, given the size of the base and the 2" coherency rule, if a 5" blast marker directly hits on top of one terminator, it might nick two others, assuming the terminators are deployed linearly to maximize their frontage and limit the opponent's ability to maneuver around them. That should result in one dead terminator, assuming TH/SS troopers. If the blast marker deviates to be centered not directly over a terminator model in this scenario, it should only hit two terminators.

There are lots of ways to kill the big terminator units, but I don't think the vindicator is one of the better answers, unless the terminator player completely botches his/her model placement.

Issues with termie base sizes will have to be agreeded per player or per group? It just seems a bit unfair to have one guy running teleporting/gating termies on small bases & another guy footslogging ones on larges bases? Sounds iffy. If the matter is already sorted.. please let me know.

Im not sure why you quoted me on a few (all ) points but failed to read the quotes in question. Granted youve got some valid points but equally some of your replies fail to actually read/answer to the bits youve quoted.

Like I said.. adding in some cyclones would be nice & light vehicles will fall to that firepower (and massed storm bolters)

When did tank shocks become so powerful? Marines have a few cool rule reguarding not running away & those tank shocks will need to end up more than 12" away. Tank shocking versus weaker troops with poor morale may be a good idea but against a unit that can walk up to even a monolith and put some hurt onto it deserves to be stayed away from. Surely thats the idea, with mechenised vs footsloggers.. To stay away. Again.. 30 termies (especailly on these super large bases I dont like to hear bout so out-of-hand) will cover a large area. Tacticals will be worth thier weight in man-flesh. Long ranged anti-tank is the best dutie for them and they will do somthing.

But okay, sure. 30 termies are rubbish & a waste of time. Will never do anything & are easily removeable.

17+2 does not sound like "max terminators", but it is pretty powerful. I figure a real max terminator thing will be great against prevalent powerbuilds using other expensive units like nob bikers, nidzilla and maybe even seer council. Yet a middle tier army using a lot of cheap speed bumps might actually win most objective grabbing missions, because you have a lot of points in few units, which then will be slowed down. And a more flexible army might target your very few and weakly defended troop choices (unless we're talking 'ard boys point level here). So it is not a surefire plan. But a good one. Personally, I'd stick with the 20-terminator idea for <1850pts.

All good points, and yes, it was a misnomer, it is not a max termy army.

Deadshane1, I have to almost totally disagree with you (almost because I have not played the army yet, so this is all theory) but 30 assault termies with fleet are a huge threat to any army that I can think of, especially considering one of the squads starts 12-18 inches away from your lines. It is an army that is incredibly resiliant, hits like a ton of bricks and is very mobile.

A variation that I plan on doing is one max squad of normal termies and a libby with gate to make the squad super mobile. You take a few cheap troops to daisey pick objectives and take the occasional pot shot and let the big boys do the rest.

Is it the end all be all of lists? No, but I think it would be mighty powerful and a cool looking and fun army to play, if a bit pricey!

Shrike
Libby
10 Termies
10 Termies
3x Tacs in Rhino's
2x Dropping Dreads

Is a basic outline that can be tailored from 1750-2000 and will be incredibly difficult for most to deal with.

Also note that in most cases, you only need 8-9 TH/SS, so the other 1 or 2 can be lightning claws. (This also stuffs your banshees even harder Razerous.) And the reason the banshees get the same number of attacks charging or being charged was that you had mentioned "Counterattack", so I assumed that your build would include it.

Razerous wrote:Like I said.. adding in some cyclones would be nice & light vehicles will fall to that firepower (and massed storm bolters)

How do assault terminators get cyclones? If they're not assault terminators with Stormsheilds all of a sudden they become SUPER easy to shoot off of the board.

When did tank shocks become so powerful?

They always have been....and marines (calgar excluded) are JUST as susceptable to them as every other non-fearless army out there. If you havent had a single unit tank shocked 5-8 times in the same turn, I can see how you might be ignorant of the potency of a tank shock. (not saying 'ignorant' as an insult btw, dont take it personal)

But okay, sure. 30 termies are rubbish & a waste of time. Will never do anything & are easily removeable.

Not against anyone who knows what they're doing...no. They'll be played with.

Reecius wrote:Deadshane1, I have to almost totally disagree with you (almost because I have not played the army yet, so this is all theory) but 30 assault termies with fleet are a huge threat to any army that I can think of, especially considering one of the squads starts 12-18 inches away from your lines. It is an army that is incredibly resiliant, hits like a ton of bricks and is very mobile.

'Why' do you disagree? Or are you just sticking your head in the sand? I think I'm right, and when people think their terminators are invincible against me....they never are. One of my last games that I played, I played a guy with 15 Tzeench terminators, Abbaddon, and a Terminator lord. I killed every model for the price of 2 of my own terminators and two wounds on my Grand master. Why? Because terminators arent as tough as everyone seems to think they are. They're marines. One wound, no FnP, Assault termies have hardly any wound allocation shelter, and they arent fearless. They arent as resiliant as you're thinking they are..thats what I'm saying...ok, you disagree. I think you're wrong.

by the way, "move 6, charge 6, d6 fleet" How is that "Very mobile" in this game of skimmers, fast vehicles, jump packs, turboboosting.......?

whitedragon wrote:Shrike
Libby
10 Termies
10 Termies
3x Tacs in Rhino's
2x Dropping Dreads

Is a basic outline that can be tailored from 1750-2000 and will be incredibly difficult for most to deal with.

I hope I fight lists like this all adepticon weekend. Looks incredibly weak to me.

Considering a 10 man squad of Dire Avengers with Blade Storm can kill a squad of Terms if it is doomed then I would not take them.

yeah,
This all looks interesting....
sorry to derail but do you guys think that 30 terminators could work in a CSM list??

Panic...

Well If you just want to make your oppomemt cry

Shrike

5 Terms w/ Reedemer 465

5 Terms w/ Redeemer 465

8 Terms for Shrike 280

Troops

10 man Scout w/ CC 140

10 Man Scout w/ CC 140

Hollismason wrote:Considering a 10 man squad of Dire Avengers with Blade Storm can kill a squad of Terms if it is doomed then I would not take them.

Aha..dear me. No. You kill 2.5 termies (roughly) with a bladestorming dire avenger sqaud with the dual cats (so no 5++ cc save) and closer to 4 is the squad is guided aswell. Nowhere near 10 termies im afraid.

Like I said deadshane.. posting replies to comments you quote me on that are completely ignorant (see what I did thar) to the quoted materail is just fail.

If a termie squad manages to fail a LD save 5-8 times, or fails to kill any tanks 5-8 times, or even an opponent manages to field 5-8 tanks.. Id be surprised. 5-8 tanks would fill so much space that a good few would be easily chargable. Its just a silly thing to say. Its like saying I can multi-charge 4 carnifexes and kill all of them with my 10 termies. It could happen. It never should.

Razerous wrote:
Like I said deadshane.. posting replies to comments you quote me on that are completely ignorant (see what I did thar) to the quoted materail is just fail.

You said adding in cyclones would work against light armour
-I said you cannot equip assault terminators with cyclones, and regular termies are even easier to shoot off of the board

You asked when did Tank Shocks become so powerful.
-I explained that they always have been and why.

...this is how I've been addressing your quotes, even earlier ones. I HAVE been debating the validity of what you've said. You're way to dispute me is to simply call me fail?

Thank you for the debate victory.

Guided war walkers really have fun with Doomed terminators

at 2000 points I run Vulkan with 8 Multimeltas, however at 1750 that number drops to 6 or 7 but I'll admit the idea of 30 terminators comming at me might be a little hard to combat.

Thankfully Null Zone makes the 3++ Stormshield saves a little bit harder to pass.

its called khorne chaos daemons

'Why' do you disagree? Or are you just sticking your head in the sand?

I posted several reasons why they are good, you must have missed them.

Edited for pointless argumentative content.

Guided war walkers really have fun with Doomed terminators

Indeed, this happened in the last tourney one week ago.
Kill point mission. My 10 Assault Termies approached the Eldar army and got decimated heavily (3 left) before they could charge the Pathfinders and Dark Reapers. They annihilated both but then got wiped out.
However, the Eldar army had to focus all its fire against the Assault Termies.
At the end, he got heavily beaten 6:3.

Im running a similar list lately, Ive fount I need at least 1 LR to be sure I can take 1 scoring unnit to enemy area target and keep it alive.
Also Ive fount a librarian is a must for the hook, the gate and the null zone (great agains other termies ! )
As scoring units for me is more than enought having 10 tactical marines and scouts, if used properly and defended goo you dont really need more than this to win a battle.
So here is my list as Im using it atm its 2.000 points , adjust it to 1750 would not be hard thouhgt

HQ:
Captain Kayvaan Shrike 195
Librarian 100........295
Troops:
10 Scouts+9 SnipperRifles+MissileLauncher+TeleportHommer 165
10 Scouts+9 SnipperRifles+MissileLauncher+TeleportHommer 165
5 TacticalMarines+MeltaBombs+TeleportHommer 110........440
Elites:
10 AssaultTerminators 400
10 AssaultTerminators 400
5 AssaultTerminators 200......1.000
Heavy Support:
1 LandRaider+ExtraArmor 265........265

How it works? well imagine a capture and control mision and an enemy that have deployed in 2 areas of his battleground.
Deploy: infiltrate Kayvan and 10 termies as close as posible to his main area where his marker is. Infiltrate 5 scouts as close as posible to his 2nd army group.
deploy the landraider with the 5 tactical inside as close to his marker as posible.
Infiltrate another 5 scouts within his 1rst army group.
Keep 5 scouts next to your marker if posible out of sight, keep 5 scouts on reserve.
Keep 5 termies on reserve as counter attack resource.

1st turn move kayvan if you were able to deploy close assault , if not split the squad for a 2nd turn assault to his main force group.
Gate with librarian next to the scouts with teleport hommer near his 2nd group and run to split your squad a little antiblast.
Move max distance the LR with the tactical inside towards his marker of his objetive get a cover save if posible, pop smoke launchers.
Shot if posible with the 15 scouts and 2 missile launchers.
Turn done.
In his turn you will have to survive all his firepower on your 20 assault terminators. here is when moving smart and sploiting LOS get you less hits and throught hits less 3++/2+ saves to do.
Average battles you will lose here 3 to 5 termies agains a good enemy.
2nd turn Assault with kayvaan squad, Assault with Libby squad keep on shoting with the 15 scouts.
If the last 5 scouts or the last 5 termies arrived decide to defend your objetive or press his.
3rd turn Kayvaan squad keep the cleanning, Libby squat may gate towards another area (into hommer range if posible) for more cleaning in turn 4th
More or less this is the idea. Exploiting Fleet especial rule to have a hight mobility /charge army. Use great librarian gate and LR assult especial rule to ad even more mobility to that army, and use those stupid 3+ invulnerable save on stormshields to keep every1 alive.

DarthDiggler wrote:I don't understand how a Vindicator could do any significant damage to a squad of assault terminators. Termies are on 1 1/2" bases and spaced 2" apart. A direct hit will get 3 and 1 might die on average. Nice shooting there Tex.

10 guys on large bases spread 2" apart means your one squad is taking up a huge amount of space, meaning you can't really concentrate power. It would also means you won't get full attacks. If your squad is spread 2" between each rank and in even 3 ranks. That means any guy in the 3rd rank will likely not have room to get into combat (he can't be moved farther than his 6" move allows.)

As others have said, if you deep strike them, it means a very likely obliteration when you can't fit all your guys onto the board.

Vindicators and such are not as ineffective as you say also. You won't be able to maintain a perfect spacing on a real battle field where you have to move around houses or forests, or squish in to occupy them.

Chaos has lash to make sure he can hit like every terminator at once. Also, the ability to just make them walk backwards and not be able to assault what they want.

But if you're imperial there are ways you can force the termies to mass together.

Pivot to face one flank and Tank shock the Side of the wide-spread assault termies from medium range. If successful your rhino will run out of movement right on top of half of the terminator unit. The rules say they must be moved aside the minimum distance required so that they'll stay in coherency and be outside of 1" from the vehicle. This means that they'll be moved right up against their friends. Then on your shooting turn, you fire 2-3 Pie plates into this bunched-up area, and you could probably easily hit 5-7 Termies with each. Make sure to drive one of the vindies ahead of the others, so that they assault it next turn. When they assault, they all have to be moved into base-contact if possible. They possibly blow it up, then the other vindicators drive around and then obliterate the survivors.

Most people when they discuss shooting, they always say assault termies, but deathwing termies and normal termies do not have 3+ invulnerables.

If my obliterators face up against your cyclone squad, the cyclone squad is getting wiped off the map. Plasma cannons wound termies on 2+, and you only get a 5+ save. Then in return I get a 2+ save against all your cyclone launchers.

Saldiven wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Again.. I disagree. A vindi will nuke on avarge 1/3 to 1/2 a assault termie team with a good chance of killing shrike aswell (if the sqaud is at all wounded w/ fewer models) that will make the points back for the vindi easily. If you get two shots off, well.. death time.

Any SM player that sees something like a vindicator on the other side of the table and doesn't spread out deserves what happens to them. Considering coherency rules and the size of the terminator base, the 5" blast marker should rarely hit more than 2 terminator models. For example, given the size of the base and the 2" coherency rule, if a 5" blast marker directly hits on top of one terminator, it might nick two others, assuming the terminators are deployed linearly to maximize their frontage and limit the opponent's ability to maneuver around them. That should result in one dead terminator, assuming TH/SS troopers. If the blast marker deviates to be centered not directly over a terminator model in this scenario, it should only hit two terminators.

There are lots of ways to kill the big terminator units, but I don't think the vindicator is one of the better answers, unless the terminator player completely botches his/her model placement.

3 Termies would be a baseline minimum. I doubt someone will hit less than 3.

Of course, you didn't take into account scattering. A tiny bit of scatter can make it hit 4-5 or more.

If you are able to hit more then 5 someone is definently doing things very wrong and you will probably win anyway.

That beeing said, I dont think 30 is the magic number. Its just too much points and wont fit to make an effective army, but the thought the point was to make something thats based on assult terminators, maybe like someone said before 8 + 5 + 5, 2 squads in LRs.

@Deadshane,

Just a quick question. I am trying to figure out some kind of 1500 point list that could field enough mobile armor to tank shock a unit 5-8 times in a game. 5 I could see with the reduced prices of rhino etc... but 8??? What list are you using that you can net 8 armored vehicles in 1500 points? If that was meant for higher points please let me know. For instance if you were setting it up on a scale, as in 5 shocks at 1500 5-7 at 1750 6-8 at 2000 then okay. Please let me know.

Razerous wrote:

Like I said.. adding in some cyclones would be nice & light vehicles will fall to that firepower (and massed storm bolters)

You have to remember that every shooty termie unit goes from saving 2/3rds of anti-termie wounds to saving 1/3rd. That means every cyclone squad is TWICE as easy to shoot dead by the anti-elite weaponry.

Since you have zero tanks, all those 10-20 dark lances or other nice AP1-2 guns will immediately be vaporizing your shooty terminators.

10 Storm Bolters is not a lot of fire power.

With the termie squad at 460 points. You could afford 18 Noise Marines w/ 18 sonic blasters (48 shots per turn while standing still compared to 20 by termies. 36 while moving compared to 20 by termies.) They'll be far more effective versus hordes. Against vehicles or elite things, it's all about multi-meltas, meltas, and lascannons, which your army has zero of.


Or you could afford 13 Chaos Terminators with 13 Combi-plasma. For the same cost as that one shooting termie-unit. They deep strike as 4 4 5 and then fire 20-26 or whatever S7 AP2 shots into your shooty terminator squad. Next turn, finish off the tattered remains.

Sandokann wrote:
Gate with librarian next to the scouts with teleport hommer... ...may gate towards another area (into hommer range if posible)...

Ive added in dots because ive selected bits out.. Anyways, I just thought id mention the GoI power a librarian can use is not effected at all by a teleport homer. Only terminators coming in from reserves can teleport in. Teleport homers work for these guys alone & only in that respect. A libbys "enter play via deepstrike" is not effected by these teleport homers.

Locator beacons are what you want. They do work with the libbys power.

TheBloodGod wrote:
>>All of it..<<

Quasi-QFT

Thank you, my thoughts exactly.. I just couldnt managed to put them down into somthing quite as concise. Also the oblits will rock many types of sauce but they do have a sevre numbers disadvantage. 3x3 plasmacannons & pfists (give or take) could quite quickly change this. I mentioned cyclones purely in reguards to fast annoying weak skimmers/transports. The termies & thier pfists can catch oblibs.

Ahh you wrote loads more! Normal termies are lots more vunerable but like wues said, it can get quite easy to focous too much of the termies. Also against ap1-2 weapons against termies, dont forget the prevalence of cover saves in 5ed + the fact they can stay at range and/or deepstrike into the fray after infiltrating/running assault termies have engaged things. But they are still lots weaker yes.

I addition to other concerns about this army, I wonder how many schmucko, fearless S4 gaunts can you afford at this point level to just peck these guys to death through their 2+ save? I myself have not had much luck with terminators on foot.

I am currently at work, can anyone give an approximate point cost of Shrike, ie: he costs as much as a twin linked lascannon pred with heavy bolters or something?

Bodichi: Go to the first page of this thread.

30 slugga boyz cost less than half of a 10 man terminator unit. Still they will kill it and have over 20 boyz standing after 3-4 rounds of combat.

3++ termies have 2 attacks each, that's not enough vs hordes.

So to counter 1200 points of terminators I need about 500 points of boyz.

Post number SIXTY NINE!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Anywho, I do think 30 termies is uneconomical. 20 would suffice, all of them Assault Termies if you wanted to be a jerk.
It'd be fun to play (for you) but not much fun for your opponent and not very balanced.

for 440pts you get 2x30boys w/ nob + pk & a bosspole.

While on a charge 30 of those boys kil about 6 termies.. its unlikely that all 30 boys will either a) survive long enough while being shot at by various things in any army b) get every model into effective combat range

But, yes.. if those 30 boys charge 10 termies they will very handily cripple assault termies, horde control is a big problem. Normal termies, 10 of them w/ cyclones have 4 frag missile blast templates & 10 storm bolters which put out 20 str 4 ap 5 shots @ 24". I assume this will whittle down a boy squad fairly quickly. I reckon about 12 boys per go of shooting, 6 if thier in cover.

In return these termies (while horribly expensive) can walk around and be quite immune to alot of shooting, even more with assault termies.

Razerous wrote:If the marines are base 170 then it comes exactly to 1500.

Lies.. 1480 (I costed the cyclones @ 40pts not the actual 30pts)


Doom + bladestorm is win. Doom & guide + bladestorm is better. Worth the 20pts if the chance to be put with shooty units.

Ironically, one of the lists that spawned this discussion is a bit off.

So, that's:

Librarian w/ Storm Shield
10 Termis w/ 2 Cyclones
10 Termis w/ 2 Cyclones
10 Assault Termis
10 Tac Marines
10 Tac Marines
10 Scouts

Right?

That's not even close to 1500 points.

As in, it is quite a bit over.

1940.

Remove one scout & 2 assault termies & it comes to 1847. As that stands, it looks quite good..Probably would Id take.

Hollismason wrote:Considering a 10 man squad of Dire Avengers with Blade Storm can kill a squad of Terms if it is doomed then I would not take them.

That's a whopping 3 termies killed (roughly) if the DA's are guided and doomed.

That's a very small squad of termies.

Librarian w/ terminator armor, storm shield
10 Termies w/ 2 cyclones
10 Assault Termies
10 Tac Marines
10 Tac Marines
10 Scouts

This was the list, 1500 pts, with only 20 Termies.

Aren't 30 terminators just a 1200 point easy target for a lashwhip and 9 obliterators? Or 3 ravagers? Or a nob biker squad backing up and shooting? Or uhh.. Pariahs? Pariahs would screw them up pretty bad. Yeah. Pariahs.


You should watch out for pariahs.

wuestenfux wrote:

Librarian w/ terminator armor, storm shield
10 Termies w/ 2 cyclones
10 Assault Termies
10 Tac Marines
10 Tac Marines
10 Scouts

This was the list, 1500 pts, with only 20 Termies.

Aside from the fact that there was an "x2" after the "10 Termies w/ 2 cyclones"?

Either way, 'tactical' Terminators just aren't that threatning to most armies.

Volume of fire rules the day now. (Yes, this is where I break out my 'I wish it was like it used to be, 3+ on 2d6' rant...)

Webbe wrote:30 slugga boyz cost less than half of a 10 man terminator unit. Still they will kill it and have over 20 boyz standing after 3-4 rounds of combat.

3++ termies have 2 attacks each, that's not enough vs hordes.

So to counter 1200 points of terminators I need about 500 points of boyz.

But it changes if you have 5 LCs. There's no way you need more than 5 TH/SS. 3 or 4 in a 5 man squad's one thing but the opponent just won't have the volume of fire to take down all 5 3+ inv saves (even lash oblit lists would have a hard time altho the could probably get the SS off one squad in one round.)

5 LCs and 5 SS by my calcs would be reduced to 1 guy but will reduce the Orks to 7 guys and force a morale check -- IF the Orks charged. Granted the Orks are much cheaper but that also assumes like others have said that the Orks will be entirely engaged.

ShumaGorath wrote:Aren't 30 terminators just a 1200 point easy target for a lashwhip and 9 obliterators? Or 3 ravagers? Or a nob biker squad backing up and shooting? Or uhh.. Pariahs? Pariahs would screw them up pretty bad. Yeah. Pariahs.


You should watch out for pariahs.

Shhhh, dont tell them, let them continue to think this army is good.

You cannot convince them otherwise anyway.

to be pretty blunt here:


a 30 termy list is pure gak.
too many things about that will slaughter them without any problems.
daemons would tear through them in a few rounds without breaking stride.
bikernobz would have a pretty similar effect.
lashblitz would cause them even more problems.

TheBloodGod wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Again.. I disagree. A vindi will nuke on avarge 1/3 to 1/2 a assault termie team with a good chance of killing shrike aswell (if the sqaud is at all wounded w/ fewer models) that will make the points back for the vindi easily. If you get two shots off, well.. death time.

Any SM player that sees something like a vindicator on the other side of the table and doesn't spread out deserves what happens to them. Considering coherency rules and the size of the terminator base, the 5" blast marker should rarely hit more than 2 terminator models. For example, given the size of the base and the 2" coherency rule, if a 5" blast marker directly hits on top of one terminator, it might nick two others, assuming the terminators are deployed linearly to maximize their frontage and limit the opponent's ability to maneuver around them. That should result in one dead terminator, assuming TH/SS troopers. If the blast marker deviates to be centered not directly over a terminator model in this scenario, it should only hit two terminators.

There are lots of ways to kill the big terminator units, but I don't think the vindicator is one of the better answers, unless the terminator player completely botches his/her model placement.

3 Termies would be a baseline minimum. I doubt someone will hit less than 3.

Of course, you didn't take into account scattering. A tiny bit of scatter can make it hit 4-5 or more.

I did take scattering into effect, as you would have seen if you read the entire post. If you're going to field 30 assault terminators, you have to spread them out as much as possible to cover as much of the board as possible. If you don't, then more maneuverable forces will just dance around you. If the terminator player spreads the unit in a single line to cover as much frontage as possible, you will never hit more than 3. The only way you will hit more than 3 is if the terminator player runs the units in multiple lines, which (I think) reduces the overall battlefield effectiveness of having 30 of the models.

Personally, I don't think 30 assault terminators is a tremendously viable force, but if you're going to field them, you can't run them around in bunches.

Kill two weak troop choices and let Exorcists decimate the rest.

+40 Sisters and 8 flamers rapid fire + Divine Guidance.

This is what even most sandart mechanised Sisters army can do to this armylist.

I even have my doubts about fielding 10 Terminators. They like, cost more than all my Heavy Support choices

Not that I haven't put a LOT of thought about it. I mean, those plastic AoBR Termies are just asking to be used!*

*not only their PFs for the other models lawl.

ShumaGorath wrote:Aren't 30 terminators just a 1200 point easy target for a lashwhip and 9 obliterators? Or 3 ravagers? Or a nob biker squad backing up and shooting? Or uhh.. Pariahs? Pariahs would screw them up pretty bad. Yeah. Pariahs.


You should watch out for pariahs.

The nob bikers don't want to face TH/SS termies led by shrike. With two squads, it's a pretty safe bet you'll be able to catch them. A librarian becomes insurance against lash, but yes, lash hurts bad. If anybody ever takes pariahs....

Like I said before, this can fit in 1750, I might make an army list thread

Shrike
Librarian with Null Zone (He's really only here for the psychic hood, and late game GoI)
10 Assault Termies (8 TH/SS/ 2 LC)
10 Assault Termies (8 TH/SS/ 2 LC)
3xTac squads in Rhino (Don't have my book so I'm not sure if I have enough points to go full ten man or not)
2xDreads with Multi-Melta in drop pods. (With the drop pod, you can land right on top of something and toast them

Basically, the termies and shrike take care of business, the marines drive up to objectives, and the dreads use their drop pods to land next to tanks and torch them with melta's. (You could use an Ironclad with a meltagun as well if you have points) You could also give the marines meltas and put them in drop pods as well for the same effect. Drop pods really let you get in super close for some melta love.

The terminators survivability in CC increases dramatically if you add in a couple LC terminators. That gives them enough dice to ensure a won or tied combat against CC heavy hitters. (And Razerous, a couple LC's screw the banshees pretty hard.) I'm not sure if 2 or 3 is a better number.

It may not be top tier, but it will be a hella fun to play, and can give opponents headaches.

Oh, and as for the librarian's psychic hood, you could also take a grey knight grand master if you wanted, but he's more expensive and doesn't benefit from Shrike's Fleet like the librarian would. You could be even more devious and leave the librarian in power armor, and attach him to the terminator squad, and then he could Sweeping Advance.

Nob bikers will laugh at this army. Here's an example. Using one of the winning Nob biker lists from last years Baltimore GT.

With just about any combination of dakkaguns and combi-scorchas in a single squadron, mathhammering it out (considering 9 bikers and a Warboss) nets you about 3 dead terminators from shooting.

You wont really have much choice who survives but lets assume the best (for the terminators) and say the lightning claw guys buy it....so that you can instadeath some Nobs. (since LC's wont do squat against models with wound allocation cheese, 2 wounds, Tough5, and 5++ saves)

You've got Shrike/Libby/Whatever....Nobs dont care and spread his wounds across their Wound allocation shelter. Your character kills nothing. Next the Nobs w/o Powerklaws attack. That's 3 Nobs and a Painboy, 15 attacks hitting on 3's give or take basically wounding on 3's for str5...that should give 1 more terminator dropping barring good/bad luck. 6 Terminators swing their hammers, 6 hits, 5 wound, 2 save? Sound fair? Cool, We'll wound some of the already wounded Nobs (mainly ones w/o powerklaws, thank you shrike, you nitwit) 3 bikers drop Leaving 7? Whoops, no sorry, I'll take one or two of those hammer hits on my Warboss who you cannot instakill since one terminator HAS to attack him....make that 2 more bikers drop leaving 8. You've done 5 wounds total to me considering averages.

Now the orks swing their klaws. One Nob has a better than average chance of killing off shrike with 4 Powerklaw attacks, he'll do that. Combat Res 4/5 so far for the Nobs. The other 17 powerklaw attacks from the Boss and the bikers will go into the remaining 6 Terminators. Say 12 hit, 10 wound, 3 dead...average combat. Terminators lose combat by 3 and have 3 terminators left.

This is assuming that the bikers who have superior mobility DONT decide to simply gang up on one squad and kill it off easily....which a smart Nob biker will probably do. You see, there are 2 such units like this in an 1850 or 1750 list. Also at least a big mob of 30 shoota boys behind them with big shootas to help soften the terminators up with shooting.

These massive terminator lists dont have anything going for them as far as Nob Biker lists go. You dump too many points into immobile terminators that get outmaneuvered by faster bikers that have tons more shooting ability. Its a laugh riot that you guys think this is somehow viable.

Actually, against nob bikers they will just chill in their LRs

That is, untill they wanna go forward 12, jump out 2 fleet and assult them and that will make it all alot diffrent.

Kallbrand wrote:Actually, against nob bikers they will just chill in their LRs

That is, untill they wanna go forward 12, jump out 2 fleet and assult them and that will make it all alot diffrent.

You mean like all the Land Raiders not present in the 30 Terminator list?

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:

Kallbrand wrote:Actually, against nob bikers they will just chill in their LRs

That is, untill they wanna go forward 12, jump out 2 fleet and assult them and that will make it all alot diffrent.

You mean like all the Land Raiders not present in the 30 Terminator list?

30 is too many, 20 is a decent number if being led on foot by Shrike. If you would rather use LRC's, then you should take vulkan, pedro or lysander to go along with the assault termies in the LRC's. Then fill in the rest with whatever, but droppodding marines/dreads with meltas are good.

I think to keep the Bikers for outmanuevering the Termies, you need to outshoot the Nob Biker list. I am in favor of 20 TH/SS termies in a list, not 30. With 20 you can add in more shooting elements which make the Bikers charge the firebase. Deadshane's generous illustration would give the advantage of a 750ish pt. unit over a 400pts unit. Fine. The countercharge of the next 10 termies annhilate the Nobz.

I envision 3 multimelta attack bikes, 2 thunderfire cannons and 3 units of troops putting out fire behind a screen of 20 Termies that forces the Bikers into combat. I don't think the Bikers would be able to outshoot this. Pedro is much better in this army as he adds +1 attack across the board. In Shane's example above, 12 attacks become 18 and 3 wounds through become 6. 1 on the Warboss and 5 dead nobz for 11 wounds towards combat resolution. If any Ork survives the morale check another full squad of 10 is waiting to pick up the pieces and repeat with the next Biker unit. Meanwhile the marines are taking down precious Orc troops and the Marines are losing elites. The best bet for Orks is not to attack at all and hide for the objectives. However with TLOS blocking terrain scarce, the Thundefires will reach out 60" with str 5 and no cover saves to do some damage.

I'm interested in trying it out to see how it will work.

DarthDiggler, that sounds like a battle plan:

Pedro Kantor

2x 10 Assault Terminators

3x 10 Tactical Marines

3 Attack Bikes w/ multimeltas

2 Thunderfire Cannons.

In the last tournament, I took one Thunderfire and was a bit dissappointed.
I'd be inclined to replace one Tactical squad by a 10 men Scout unit with 5 Sniper rifles.

Deadshane1 wrote:Terminators lose combat by 3 and have 3 terminators left.

An example for why most people advocate full TH/SS and Vulkan or Pedro when looking at 30 terminators. Or even just TH/SS 10 man in your typical marine list. That unit should push or beat the nob bikers even if shot and charged (depedning on how many klaws they are packing). So as mentioned a 400 point unit keeping up with a 700+ one -- with the very possible counter charge on the horizon.

Of course this is kind of pointless number crunching -- mission, terrain, tactics used will have a great deal of effect on the outcome. There's also alot of armies that 30 terminator Vulkan list will struggle against (so no I am not one to say it is top tier).

I would not really use pedro as your basically losing his very special ability to take Stern as scoring.

Now a Master of the Forge would be nice or even dreads.

I just dont think 30 terms are personally viable unless your playing Hard Boyz Level or 1750; 1750 its a tough army to beat.

Very Low Points and very high points it seems to shine.

I just dont think 30 terms are personally viable unless your playing Hard Boyz Level or 1750; 1750 its a tough army to beat.

Indeed, consider the following army:

Librarian - 100
3x 10 Assault Termies - 1200
2x 10 Tactical Marines - 340
7 Scouts - 101

1741 pts

I'm gonna have to go with Deadshane on this one. Granted I'm not sure what is actually GOOD against nob bikers, but this list does not look to fit the bill. Having a LRC to ride around in would seem like a big benefit against the orks in a 1500+ games in general. The LRC packs the firepower of a tactical squad but laughs at most ork shooting.

Honestly, if you want to run a termie heavy list, then just suck it up and play DW. Sure, you lose the 3++ SS, but you gain wound allocation, 1st turn deep strike, Heavy weapons mixed in with assault termies, fearless, and most of all SCORING termies.

Of course, you are even better off if you go with DW/RW combo...

Just my 2 cents

I think large term lists are Viable at the Hard Boyz level of 2500.

I mean seriously.

Vulcan HeStaan (175)
Space Marine Captain on bike w/ Relic Blade (155)

5 Terms w/ TH/SS w/ Redeemer 465

8 Terms w/ TH/SS w/ Crusader 585

10 Man Sterngaurd w/ 10 Combimeltas w/ Drop Pod 335

Troops

8 Man Bike squad w/ 2 Meltas

8 Man Bike Squad w/ 2 Meltas

8 Man bike Squad w/ 2 Meltas

Alerian wrote:Honestly, if you want to run a termie heavy list, then just suck it up and play DW. Sure, you lose the 3++ SS, but you gain wound allocation, 1st turn deep strike, Heavy weapons mixed in with assault termies, fearless, and most of all SCORING termies.

Of course, you are even better off if you go with DW/RW combo...

Just my 2 cents

wound allocation? all these guys have one wound.

Yes..wound allocation.

If you get lit up by Lootas or any other large volume of fire unit, you will be taking ALOT of saves. Thanks to having all of your DW termies uniquely equipped you will lose fewer guys, generally speaking.

Say you have to make 15 saves. Instead of rolling 15 dice and losing as many termies as you roll 1s for, instead you roll 3 dice per termie, in a 5 man squad. If on one termie you roll snake eyes (or heaven forbid three 1s) you still only lose one termie...if they are all uniquely equipped. It is one of the benefits of DW, thanks to wound allocation, and the ability to make all termies unique you will usually lose fewer guys when you are hit by a large volume of fire