My friend and I got into an argument about this and couldn't really seem to determine definately one way or the other. It's kind of a dumb situation but here goes ..

During the movement phase I measured my flying Daemon Prince's 12 inches to see how far he can make it, not declaring one way or another whether I was going to move him or not. But rather than doing so, I decided to move a unit of troops first, still not having decided whether I wanted to move the DP, or how far during that particular movement phase. My friend then pointed out that I can no longer move the DP as I had already initiated movement with him by making a measurement and moved on to troops. He also stated that on page 3 the rules say no measurements are aloud unless the rules call for it.

On top of that he states that I cannot roll for a single slow and purposeful unit (to get an idea of how far they are going to move), then roll for another another S&P unit (to get an idea once again), or begin movement of another unit, as once I've move to another, or rolled for another, this counts as me ending the first ones movement .. even if no movement of the first unit ever took place. Basically he was stating that rolling and/or measurement in itself is beginning movement and thus has to be fully carried out before moving on.

I see this as absurd and pointed out that throughout the movement phase measurement is always "called for" and that no where in the BRB does it state that measurement during the movement phase is any sort of declaration, nor that any declaration is needed. Rather, simply once you start movement you cannot then switch to another unit and begin their movement, which I had not done seeing as how I didn't even touch the DP. Yet during the shooting and assault phases it does require declarations in order to begin measurement and I would think if they wanted to be that specific with movement they would have. I see this as a good tactic in order to know where you stand and be able to move units that might be in the way of the first you measured.

Am I wrong to assume all of this? We've been playing for quite some time and for some reason this has never come up, I guess we generally don't generally make such measurements (and rolls) but it would be quite nice to know that you can.


On a completely unrelated note, I'm also curious about Marneus Calgar's power weapon - does the fact that he has an extra attack due to having a 2 matching power fists confer over to his attacks when using his power weapon instead of his fists?

Thanks in advance to either question.

I feel like your friend was right in this situation. I don't have the BRB front and center, but I'm pretty sure it says something to the effect of, pick a unit, complete his movement, then finish up (you make reference to that same effect in your question).

In my opinion once you make a measurement for a unit you are started moving that unit. Part of the fun of Wargaming is planning in advance, guesstimating ranges, and taking what the dice throw your way. By measuring a range or rolling the dice you are commiting to begin movement for that unit, it would be unfair to get all you values first, since it would bias your decisions as a whole.

I.E. - If my Demon Prince is in range, I will assault the Crisis Suits with him, then assault the Kroot with the Noise Marines. However, if the Demon Prince is not in range, I want to use the Marines to assault the Crisis Suits and use something else to shoot the Kroot.

I think part of the reason that the game isn't played like you are supposing is because it would take an eternity, it would lead to situations where the opponent has confusions (Did he already move the Demon Prince, he had the tape out and was measuring for him, so I guess he did, but now he's removing him...?)

That said I like to give my opponent leeway on these issues until he doesn't return the favor on something, at that point I become a rules stickler and lose most of my Sportsmanship points.

**Most of this is based on my opinions and my understanding of the rules, not actual facts**

I think technically your friend may be correct. You are not allowed to measure until it is called for, so you could say that you cannot measure how far a unit will go until you actually go to move him.

But... in my play group we are not a bunch of rules lawyering 40k addicts. It is a fun game and I would have no problem with measuring the distance and then deciding if you want to move or not assuming you are measuring exactly how far that unit will move and not the extra X inches to see if you will be in assault/rapid fire/etc. range.

I concur... It seems like it's the same that it is in shooting. You can't premeasure, decide that another squad has a better chance, and then go back after you're begun the process.

You obviously didn't have bad intent but things like that go hand in hand with tactics that are definitely cheating. Doing anything 'preemptively' makes me watch everything a bit more closely.

Yeah, your friend is technically correct. See page 11, paragraph just before "Movement Distance":

"Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit. You may not go back and change the move already made by a previous unit."

So, the only time you can actually measure in the movement phase is when you're about to move the actual model. Deciding that you'd go off and move another unit first means that you've completed the movement sequence of the first model and, according to these surprisingly explicit rules, can't go back to the first one.

Some people might let it slide--I would, depending on circumstance--but the rules are pretty cut-and-dry here.

See that's the thing though. The shooting and assault phases have sequences and are very specific in that they state that you must declare first, then measure. The movement phase has no such sequence or specifics. It does not state that measurement is in fact that beginning of movement. If it did at that I could completely understand. My idea of "starting a movement" is in fact actually picking up a model and moving it.. at least that's how I've always interpreted it..

But on the other hand I absolutely understand where you and my friend are coming from. I just don't see it that way ;/

I'm not sure if measuring counts as starting a unit's movement or not, but I'd be inclined to give my opponents leeway on that. However, in a tournament I absolutely call them on Slow and Purposeful and Run rolls, cause you do have to finish their movement once you roll them. (It's especially important for Run because it is more variable and will influence which units can give which units cover.)

I can see your point in terms of the BRB not explicitly stating that measuring is the beginning of movement, and in a friendly game I honestly wouldn't mind if you wanted to see how far your boys are going to get, as long as you asked if it was okay with me first.

That being said, my sense of gamerly fairness feels a bit chapped after your description of the situation. 40K isn't chess, but it is a game. In chess, if you lift a piece from the board, you must move it or forfeit your turn. Even if this isn't RAW for 40K, it does make sense from a fairness standpoint. I've always chosen the unit I was planning to move, measured, then moved that unit. The only time I'd switch to another unit was after selecting the unit and prior to measuring.

Part of the balance of the Slow and Purposeful rule is the inherent variability of the unit's movement. This randomness and the possible (read: likely) limitation to the unit's movement distance help to offset the bonuses gained by being able to move and fire rapid fire and heavy weapons. Rolling the dice to determine that distance is the beginning of movement for that unit and if you begin movement for another unit (i.e. roll for another S&P unit), the BRB is specific about the first unit's movement being forfeit.

One thing that GW has gotten right in the 40K rules is that they're clear about not letting arguments take over the game. Make an on-the-spot deliberation - the classic d6 roll-off, compromise between points of view, or simply agree with your opponent until the match is over. If it's a friendly match, make sure it stays that way. Everyone wants to be right, but only TFG insists that he's right and everyone else is wrong - especially in the middle of the game.

I can see your point however I have to agree with the above posters. Since you are playing a friendly game perhaps you can agree with your opponent to do something like the following for SaP.

SaP. If the unit wants to move then roll a dice and leave it next you the unit with the number facing up. Roll all dice for all SaP units wanting to move. Then move all the SaP units (helps spead game up a bit). Also works well with running. If a dice isn't rolled then that squad wont move but if you roll a dice then you must move that unit (part of SaP's downside).

It works well in my gaming group.

From page 3 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it...

So where do the rules allow you to measure before you move? If they don't, then you can't premeasure. They only call for you to measure when moving your models the appropriate distance, not at any time during the whole Movement phase. Your opponent was entirely correct on the matter.

Your friend is right in this case.

BRB page 3 is very clear. You can't measure something unless the rules call for it. So why are you measuring the move? Because you've started that units movement. Otherwise you have no reason to be measuring. Since you're starting that units movement, page 11 is clear - you need to finish it or forfeit it before moving on to the next unit.


it doesn't matter if you have to declare the move or not, do things in order, etc. Once you measure a move, you do it. You can measure it in 6 different directions if you want but you have to make the move, not make a mental note and move on to something else.

Always move the model right after measuring. Even if the rule is unclear, it is good form.

Additionally, it is good form to clarify these things with friends with a minimum of conflict.

In your example, I would have challenged you when you were about to move the troops unit. Saying, "Wait a minute. So you're not going to move the deamon prince?" This would have brought the issue up for discussion in a manner allowing you to go back and make the move the daemon prince.

Who wants to beat a friend on a technicality?

Everyone should read page 11 of the BRB "movement distance." It says that you may measure a move in one direction, then change your mind and move in a different direction or not at all. So you can measure a movement before you actually make it.

willydstyle wrote:Everyone should read page 11 of the BRB "movement distance." It says that you may measure a move in one direction, then change your mind and move in a different direction or not at all. So you can measure a movement before you actually make it.

Indeed.

willydstyle wrote:Everyone should read page 11 of the BRB "movement distance." It says that you may measure a move in one direction, then change your mind and move in a different direction or not at all. So you can measure a movement before you actually make it.

Your point is? Which part of this allows you to measure it in multiple directions and decide not to move it...and then move it later? All it says is you can measure any direction you want for your move, move in whatever direction, or even not move even though you've measured the 6 inches. It doesn't say you can measure, then move on to some other unit and do the same measuring, and then come back to it. "Decide not to move it at all" here doesn't mean "Decide not to move it right now". It means that measuring a move doesn't mean you have to make it, and you can elect to stand still. It does not mean that you can just measure all your moves from all your units however you want before you move any of them. Measure one, move one (or elect to not move it period, which is its move).

Because it also doesn't say (unlike shooting) that the mere act of measurement is the beginning of a model's movement.

The beginning of shooting isn't checking range...the beginning of shooting is picking a target and checking line of sight.

Thats the reason this is an issue. Is the beginning of movement the act of measuring the move, or the act of actually moving the model? I'll admit that re-reading it I can't say it's clear. It's written in a way to make it sound like you're making your choice (forwards, backwards, left, right, whatever, or not at all) when you're making the measurement.

It does say however that once you've started moving a unit you have to move it (or declare it's not moving) before moving on to the next unit. No where does it say it's perfectly fine to measure the movement of something and then move on to something else. It only says you can choose not to move the direction/distance you measured. So you still don't have permission to measure something just because it's a potential legal move. It seems pretty obvious the intent is don't measure unless thats the unit you're moving, but I can see how it is not explicitly stated.

And yet again, it does not say that you can measure and then come back. It says that you can measure and then change the direction the model is moving or decide not to move it at all.

Ghaz wrote:And yet again, it does not say that you can measure and then come back. It says that you can measure and then change the direction the model is moving or decide not to move it at all.

Indeed. Anything else is pre-measuring and therefore not allowed.

Agreed. Pick a unit, measure it's move, and move it. If you move it 0" then that's it's move.

Ghaz wrote:And yet again, it does not say that you can measure and then come back. It says that you can measure and then change the direction the model is moving or decide not to move it at all.

Not relevant.
It says you can measure. It says you can move. It does not have a restriction on the timing of those actions. It says you can't start moving and then finish moving later. But it also does not state that measuring is the start of movement.

If fact, it is clear that measuring is *not* the start of movement, since you can choose to measure and then not move.


So we have certain rules.
1) You can measure your move distance.
2) Measuring does not count as movement.
3) You can measure than then choose to move, or choose to not move
4) You can move.

So, if I measure the distance for the marines. It is legal to measure for a move. And I have *not* begun their movement.
I can move the Dread. It is legal to move a dread.
I can move the marines. It is legal to move marines.

What rule have I broken?

But the the rule on pg. 3 specifically states you're not allowed to measure any distance unless the rules say you can. So to be able to measure the distance of a move, you have to be in the act of moving that unit. You MUST be in the act of moving to be allowed to measure. It doesn't say you can measure distances at any time during your movement phase, only while you MOVE.

I too agree with your friend, Beerfiend.

This is a pretty anal argument I mea your in a friendly game with your friend. Dont be so rules whoreish.

Yeah QTF, rules lawyers are a bore.

Me and my friends all plat like this:

"Right, I'm moving my Fire Dragons 6" towards those terminators"
*measure
*move

"Oh gak, no I changed my mind, I'm actually moving them 6" towards that Rhino."

At no point will someone pipe up with "Actually, page three of the rulebook clearly states..."

Thats boring. The rulebook says you can move and remove and move and remove until you are happy with that one unit's movement. Providing it has only move it's legal move from it's starting position, there's no bother.

It's not chess.

Oh and guys, it's BGB for 40k. Not BRB.

actually no. the 5th ed rule book is RED.

Friendly games and all, but measuring is surely part of your movement. I'd comment on it simply because I've seen too much of it already. Some players pre-measure by holding out much more of the tape measure than necessary when moving/shooting, for example. In this way they see what chance they have to do an assault or be assaulted if the target isn't taken out. Perhaps not technically cheating but...

Some older GW games had sections saying just to agree on your measureing traditions beforehand, which is something I've always preferred, I don't want to win a game because someone can't guesstimate a foot and keeps missing their shooting/assaults.

So I always ask my opponenet (who're all friends of mine these days, so its not much of an issue)in advance if he'd prefer that we both just be allowed to measure freely. With the long ago end of 'Guess" range guns its hardly a game balance issue and there is no reason some players should be rewarded/penalized because they're bad at measuring in their heads.

But, thats just me, and I admit it is not in accordance with the rules in the book.

Jack

page 11 wrote: Once a unit has completed all of its movement, the player selects another unit and moves that one, and so on, until the player has moved all the units he wishes to move.

Sounds to me like you must completely finish with a unit's movement before you can start the movement of another. Measuring and rolling for SnP seem to be part of the movement of that unit as well, and therefore cannot be done before the previous unit's movement has been fully completed.

Jackmojo wrote:I don't want to win a game because someone can't guesstimate a foot and keeps missing their shooting/assaults.

Do yourself a favour and never play Fantasy then, that's an extremely vital skill. Hell, even 40k that's a pretty integral ability imo (it was even moreso until they took out guess range weapons).

Hollismason wrote: This is a pretty anal argument I mea your in a friendly game with your friend. Dont be so rules whoreish.

This attitude kind of bothers me. If I moved my infantry unit, say, 10 tactical marines on foot, 24" across the board. You would speak up because they should only get to move 6", right? What if I called you a rules whore/lawyer/whatever for interjecting? Obviously you would think I'm being TFG.

But who says individuals get to decide when we start and stop following the rules? It makes logical sense to me that by playing the game of Warhammer 40,000, we've all agreed to adhere to this particular set of abstract rules. Now, why would those rules apply or not apply, depending on their specificity? Obviously no one is going to sit down and have this thread's conversation in the middle of a game, it would ruin the fun of it; you'd dice off or something, and get on with it. I know I'm not the only one tired of seeing different 'flavours' of 40k at each FLGS they attend. I'm not referring to house rules: those are different, I merely mean slightly different interpretations of the same rules, generally unspoken and informal.

All I'm saying is that we've all agreed to play by the 40k ruleset: let's all follow it as best we can, yes?

/derail

Beer, your buddy was indeed correct. The entirety of a unit's movement process must be completed before another's may be started. I doubt you'll find hard evidence that this would include rolling for SnP as well, but my gut says that's included.

The Defenestrator wrote:

Jackmojo wrote:I don't want to win a game because someone can't guesstimate a foot and keeps missing their shooting/assaults.

Do yourself a favour and never play Fantasy then, that's an extremely vital skill. Hell, even 40k that's a pretty integral ability imo (it was even moreso until they took out guess range weapons).

Yeah, I actually came to this opinion because of my past experience with fantasy...having my Empire Army cannons blast someones army to smithereens when they can't land a single rock lobba shot was kinda sad and not very fun, why wheel and manuever when I can cripple their best formations before we're even in melee...

Jack

P.S. example dates back to ...4th edition fantasy I think, its been a long time

Seems like there is a thread of reasoning from the quotes mentioned.

1) Page 3 prohibits measuring unless allowed

2) Page 11 allows measuring distances in the movement phase

3) After measuring you can decide "not to move it at all". This means you have not moved it.

Therefore you are allowed to measure and, having measured, you are not required to move the unit.

Later on (after moving other units) you could move the unit since - by RAW - you have not moved it yet.

This doesn't fall into the usual RAW or RAI discussion. It is more of a sportsmanship issue along with such things as good form in dice rolling, counting and handling.

To me, this boils down to one thing: how you interpret what "decide not to move at all" means.

I think it means your move starts when you measure, but you don't have to actually move - you can stay still. Measuring is the start of moving, but standing still is an option even if you measured every which way. But that unit counts as "moved"

obviously other people think that that sentence is what allows them to measure without actually doing anything. I think this is wrong - the complete sentence is:

"it is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all"

This seems to clearly be designed to explain that you don't have to move the direction you measured first. It is not clear in any way that 'decide not to move at all' is anything other than another example of what can happen during the units move. The authors are assuming your move has started, and these are all possible results. Nothing here is permitting you to measure willy-nilly, so the rule on page 3 still takes precedence. You can measure and decide to MOVE in a different way (and one of those MOVES is to not move). You can't measure and decide to go to a different unit and come back.

Hollismason wrote:This is a pretty anal argument I mea your in a friendly game with your friend. Dont be so rules whoreish.

This is a forum about discussing the rules. Try to understand that next time. Games have rules. If you agree to a game, then you're agreeing to play by those rules. If you don't want to play by the rules, then go play 'Cowboys and Indians' with the six year olds.

All I can say is, up until this past game, the way I've always understood it was exactly like chess. Unless you actually pick up and physically move a model then take your hand off of them then no movement takes place. I'm not trying to bend the rules in anyway to benefit myself, but this is exactly how I see it with 40k...

Page 3 states that no measurement can take place unless called for. Throughout the movement phase measurement is always called for, therefore page 3 has no meaning here.

Page 11 states that once a "movement" of a unit is made the player must finish that "move" and thus cannot switch to another unit during this without forfeiting the first unit's right to actually finish. Yet no movement takes place period when simply measuring or rolling. It does not state that measurement or rolling are indeed the beginning of movement one way or another. However..

As I said before both shooting and assault phases require a declaration before measurement can even take place. This declaration automatically does in fact mean that you have started something with that unit, because it's part of the sequence, and must therefore finish before moving on. Nowhere in the movement phase does such a thing need to take place, nor is there any sequence period.

Thus I submit to you that the only declaration of movement is actually physically moving a model and once done, has to be finished before moving on.

Beerfiend wrote:Page 3 states that no measurement can take place unless called for. Throughout the movement phase measurement is always called for, therefore page 3 has no meaning here.

And again, it does not say that you can measure at any time during the Movement phase. Provide an actual rules quote and page number to back up your claims that it does. You can only measure when your actually moving a model. That is the only time in the Movement phase that the rules allow you to measure.

The convention is that there is no pre-measuring. If you and your friend want to agree on something different, that's fine, but then extend the courtesy to him. If you go to a tourney, do not expect to pre-measure.

Doesn't matter what the shooting and assault phases say. They have different, pre-measuring rules, specifically declaring targets.

Measurement is not "always called for" in the movement phase. You don't have carte blanch to just measure. No where does it say that in the movement rules.

The rules say you do this:

Chose a unit (implicit in the sentence "once a unit has completed its movement, the player selects another and moves that one...")

Move the unit

move on to another unit that hasn't moved and move it

repeat until you've moved everything you want to move.

Units have a distance they can move. 6", 12", etc.

The only place it mentions measuring is saying that it is ok to measure a units move in multiple directions.

It does not say "you can measure all of your units moves in all directions before moving anything". This is the kind of rule that would need to exist to invalidate the rule on page 3. It says "you may measure a units move in one direction, and then change your mind and move in a different direction, or not move at all". No where does it say you can then come back to this unit, or that the measuring being permitted here is not considered part and parcel with the movement of this unit.

Thus I submit to you that measuring is declaration of movement. This is not chess. There is no reason to mention chess.

As a side note here - has anyone ever met anyone who tried to move the way Beerfiend is describing? My judgement of this rule may be clouded by the fact that I've never ever met anyone who doesn't play "choose unit, measure, move, rinse, repeat". Is this common?

Tek wrote:



Oh and guys, it's BGB for 40k. Not BRB.

I was going to say that, and yes you may not measure before moving your only are allowed to measure while moving.

As was mentioned, BGB is the 4th edition codex

BRB is the 5th edition codex. It sure is red.

Well, like people already stated, you are not allowed to mesaure anything unless doing something with rules for it. Like moving, wich you are only allowed to do once etc etc.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:But the the rule on pg. 3 specifically states you're not allowed to measure any distance unless the rules say you can.

Agreed.

So to be able to measure the distance of a move, you have to be in the act of moving that unit.

You made that up. Or can you find a rule that states that measuring is part of movement.

The rules state the opposite, you can measure and *not* move. If measuring is part of movement... how can you measure and not move?

Measuring...seem(s) to be part of the movement of that unit as well, and therefore cannot be done before the previous unit's movement has been fully completed.

It may seem to be... but can you provide a rule that says it is?


I can provide a rule that says I can measure distance before moving.
I can provide a rule that says I can move.
I can provide a rule that shows that measuring is *not* considered moving.


So, to stop this, someone needs to provide a restriction on these legal actions.

enmitee wrote:actually no. the 5th ed rule book is RED.

Not mine. It's clearly Grey with red on it.

@coredump:

You can't provide a rule that shows measuring is not considered moving.

You can provide the end of one sentence that says you can choose not to move as your move, instead of moving.

Again, "...decide not to move it at all" after you measure is not the same as "this measurement is not considered moving".

you cannot move it AT ALL. As in, period. You measured, and then decided not to move. The end. You now cannot move it at all...not later, not some other time, not after you roll 6 slow and purposefuls and move your daemon prince. AT ALL. Not "right now". AT ALL. Not "maybe after I check this other stuff". AT ALL. That is your only special choice once you've measured - pick somewhere within your move, or declare oh he's not moving. AT ALL.

Please find another rule that allows you to measure and not move and then move something else and then come back and move. This one is obviously not it.

coredump wrote:I can provide a rule that says I can measure distance before moving.
I can provide a rule that says I can move.
[bI can provide a rule that shows that measuring is *not* considered moving.[/b]

Actually you can only provide a rule that shows measuring is *not* considered a complusion to move. The last sentence of 'Movement Distance' makes it very clear that once you measure for the unit you can move to where you measured, you can measure to somewhere else and move there, OR you can choose to not move at all.

There is no '4th way' that lets go move another unit and come back later, once you've measured you're limited to a choice off that list. Thats why measuring range is part of the process for moving a unit, and why it is part of the unit's move action.

Lordhat wrote:Not mine. It's clearly Grey with red on it.

Oh, wow, you're so clever aren't you? Its a shame that the fact that the last book being all grey is already called the BGB otherwise we could give his one the same name and there wouldn't be any confusion. Or maybe you already knew that and just wanted to increase your post count without making any worthwhile contribution to the thread...

Nah I just wanted to be a smartass. But Seriously I voted for keeping the abbreaviation for the 40k rulebook as BGB, simply because the Fantasy book is SO much more red.

I have always been an absolute critic of pre measuring in any minaitures game. IMO it goes against the entire concept of playing on a scale modeled board. There are suppose to be unknowns. Otherwise, play a board game, or a gridded map. This is not any comparisson to reality, only an abstraction in games, tabletops are not gridded because there are suppose to be unknowns.

That said, some rules explicitly allow it, and I always play by the rules...

So in 5th edition I was happy and then confused by what seems to me as a complete inconsistency. Premeasuring being explicitly forbidden in one section of the book, and then explicitly defined as permitted during movement for some reason? I consider this a massive failing of 5th edition design paradigm and a glaring inconsistency.

Outside of the order of operations issue and going back to a unit... You can not premeasure in the shooting phase to see if your shuriken cannon is in range at 24 inches... But, in the movement phase of the same turn, you could measure a Waveserpent flank speed move 24 inches and decide not to make it,... essentially checking the exact same range?

Which is it GW? Yes or no.

I agree with the 'friend' in this thread in practice, but by RAW, I think it is completely conflicted with 2 opposite views on the subject.

Good luck.

Seems pretty clear to me.

You measure a unit to see how far it can move.
After that measure you can decide to move the unit a different direction, or not at all.
You then repeat this sequence with the next unit you pick.

Measuring is followed by movement, or non-movement. As soon as you move to the next unit, the movement for the former unit is done.

Playing devil's advocate,

...if that were true, wouldn't it have to say measure any directions you wish then move or... "decide not to move it at all for the turn", or somesuch?

coredump wrote:If measuring is part of movement... how can you measure and not move?

I think that is pretty much on the spot.

For the record, I really don't like pre measuring, when I play, by choice, I announce my intentions and measure once, in order. No take backs, no multiple measurement, but I have no illusion, thats by my choice, not what the rules say.

Bleh....you power gamers need to chill out. What's next?? Laser pointers? Oh wait.....

Augustus:

I don't get it, still. Why would you interpret "or not move at all" to be anything other than for the turn? What makes you want to read it as "...at this moment". At all is at all. It's very clear.

"if measuring is part of movement...how can you measure and not move?"

Uh, you can't. You can measure and then decide that you're moving 0". But you moved. Thats the whole point of the rule. Your "move" in game is to not move.

Lordhat wrote:Nah I just wanted to be a smartass.

Oh, I thought you where just spamming...

Orkimedes wrote:Bleh....you power gamers need to chill out. What's next?? Laser pointers? Oh wait.....

This comment is a bit pointless don't you think? This forum is to answer questions, if the only answers given out was "Yeah, sounds fine..." and "I'd let you do it" then there wouldn't be any point would there? People come here because they want to know what the rule is, not what you want the rule to be and no what rules people make up to play in friendly games.

The fact that some-one answers a question with the right answer doesn't mean that they play all their games exactly to the rules, it means they've given the right answer to the question. If you want to make childish rants about the state of the game and sportsmanship then do it somewhere else instead of spamming up threads.

Uh, you can't. You can measure and then decide that you're moving 0". But you moved. Thats the whole point of the rule. Your "move" in game is to not move.

What he means is that you shouldn't be allowed to measure and then opt not to move, and that being allowed to measure to positions you're not going to gives an unfair advantage compared to how you're supposed to avoid pre-measuring before you do things. In the shooting or assault phase you can't change your mind for example.

Plus of course you're able to abuse the premeasuring fairly easily. For example with bikes, you're able to measure up to 24" with the turboboost option, which can be used to 'accidently' check if you're within 18" of a unit that you'd like to assault later on that turn.

Exactly.

I agree, that the way that measuring for movement is an advantage, and different than shooting/assaulting. Shooting and assaulting will always need to work slightly differently than moving because they involve your opponents units.

I guess they could make the rules be that you have to declare the move and the direction, and then measure to see where you end up. It would be kind of annoying i think to play that way, but it wouldn't be the end of the world.

I know I've used the movement measure to get an idea of ranges for shooting - for example, if I had a winged DP next to a squad of plague marines, I might check to see where the DPs 12 inch move would get him, not because I wanted to move him there but because I wanted to see if the plague marines were going to be in rapid fire range. I don't really see anything wrong with taking advantage of the measuring opportunities given within the rules. Nothing accidental about it.

Actually you can only provide a rule that shows measuring is *not* considered a complusion to move.

You can measure and then decide that you're moving 0". But you moved.

Let me approach from a different angle.

I measure, and then don't move. Can that unit fire heavy weapons?

You can't move and shoot. So if you can shoot, it means you didn't move. If you didn't move, then it means that measuring is *not* moving.

I don't get it, still. Why would you interpret "or not move at all" to be anything other than for the turn?

Because the rules don't say it is for the turn...
It is the same as anything else in the game. I can say "My orks are going to shoot your gaunts", then decide... naw, I don't want to shoot.
then later in the shooting phase decide I *do* want to shoot.

Or I can say my Gaunts will Run, and then move other models, then decide the gaunts will shoot instead. (assuming they haven't Run yet.)

What it is saying, is that just because you measure, doesn't mean you have to move. It is not saying that measuring *is* moving. Nor does it actively restrict you to having to make a 'permanent' decision immediately after measuring.

There are some restrictions, once you start moving, you must finish, once you start shooting, you must finish, etc. But there is nothing that indicates that measuring is part of movement.

[edit] nevermind I throw my hands up, you win. "At all" obviously doesn't mean "at all" it means "at all until I feel like it later".

And yes, your heavy weapons can shoot. Thats what the result of "choose not to move at all" would be

now I'm going to go bang my head against a desk a few dozen times.

Also, for the "I measured but didn't move" camp... if you roll a difficult terrain test and then decide not to move the models, you still count as moving. Not saying this affects other situations, but just gives you an example of when not moving *IS* still considered movement for game purposes.

Lol .. that's the problem mate. It's simply a matter of opinion what "at all" means at this point apparently. You obviously have your opinion, and both me and coredump have ours. At all could mean many things ..

At all for this moment, At all for this turn, or even At all for the rest of the game (obviously this is not the case). Why is it so far fetched that it has multiple meanings simply because YOU interpret it one way differently than another? When I read it, it was obvious to me that this meant not at this moment, does that automatically make you wrong simply because you see it differently than I? Absolutely not .. It's simply a non-specific.

Sometimes I wonder if GW does this on purpose so as to intentionally cause such squabbles ;P

Sure, I concede that it could just be meaningless. But "at all" has a definition:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/all

I would feel it would be up to you and coredump to explain why this particular measuring is allowed but doesn't have anything to do with the units move, without using the "at all" sentence. Otherwise there is no reason to append anything to the end of "at all" other than perhaps "until the next movement phase" since, well, thats the next time you actually apply this rule. Otherwise the only way to interpret it is that you never get to move them again - not that the meaning of "at all" gets thrown out the window. You have to justify WHY you think it means "at all until I feel like it again". So far no one has.

Lambadomy, I played devil's advocate before, but I want to say, I think you are right. There should not be:

Measure unit A, move B, then come back to unit A.

Furthermore, I have seen some players: Move A, Move B, Put A Back.

Even worse.

Im not advocating those things. I just can understand, despite my preconceptions, the rules at least alude to premeasuring being OK, and are, lets say slightly vague? on order of operations.

IMO better would be: move a unit at a time, measuring to a location constitutes a move, and movement can be done in increments, for example move 2 in a direction, look at the board, choose to move the same unit, 2 more, etc to the max move.

Lordhat wrote:

enmitee wrote:actually no. the 5th ed rule book is RED.

Not mine. It's clearly Grey with red on it.

Yup, a big grey book with a red picture on it. I have to admit that annoys me as well, way too much perhaps, but it still does. BGB is 40K, BRB is WFB. It even says it in the little tool tip pop-up for Emperor's sake ;-)

As for the actual topic of the thread, I certainly agree that when you start rolling dice for movement and/or measuring movement you either move that unit or forfeit your move. Seems fairly obvious to me, and seemingly to most other people as well.

I think a few people here need to brush up on their reading comprehension skills instead of playing semantics. Once again, from page 11 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

It is perfectly fine to measure a unit’s move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else... or decide not to move it at all.

From Dictionary.com:

at all
a. in the slightest degree: I wasn't surprised at all.
b. for any reason: Why bother at all?
c. in any way: no offense at all.

The rules don't say you can decide "... not to move it at the present time and then maybe decide to move it later..." but you can decide "... not to move it at all...". That specific wording means that once you've decided not to move it for that Movement phase you can't move it in the slightest degree, for any reason or in any way for the rest of that phase, period.

Gee Ghaz, you seem to have added a whole lot of words to that rule. Words that don't exist in the actual rule in the actual book.

Yes, we all know what 'at all' means. You are putting a timing restriction on it, and you are assuming that you can't change your mind later.

Again, there is nothing in the rules that say you can't change your mind.
You can't start move, and later finish move. But that is *not* the case here. (Though, it is interesting that it was the original claim, now that it has been debunked, other 'reasons;' are coming to light.)



Scenario:
I say I am going to shoot unit A. Then I change my mind and shoot unit B.
I say I am going to Run that unit. Then I change my mind and shoot with it instead.
etc. etc.
(there are some things you can't change, but those are stated as such.)

The rule does *not* say that you have to move it then, or not at all that turn.
The rule does *not* say that if you don't move it 'at all' right then, you can't move it later in the phase.

The rules *do* say you can measure before you move.
The rules *do* say you can move units in any order.
The rules *do* say that you can move any unit that has not already moved.
The rules are clear that measuring is *not* part of movement. (or no shooting heavy weapons)


So, I measure forward, then decide I will move it backwards instead. Then I decide I will not move it at all.
Later that phase..... that unit still have not moved, nor has it even started moving. Thus it is still eligible to be moved. So I move it sideways.

You are creating rules when you say that it can't be move "at all in that phase" (Seeing as how the rules don't include those words.)

I've not added a single word, thank you. You on the other hand have done nothing but bend the words to your own POV despite the fact that they say right there that if you measure you can decide not to move AT ALL and not just decide to move later. It's you who's shown an utter lack of reading comprehension.

coredump wrote:Gee Ghaz, you seem to have added a whole lot of words to that rule. Words that don't exist in the actual rule in the actual book.

Yes, we all know what 'at all' means. You are putting a timing restriction on it, and you are assuming that you can't change your mind later.

Again, there is nothing in the rules that say you can't change your mind.
You can't start move, and later finish move. But that is *not* the case here. (Though, it is interesting that it was the original claim, now that it has been debunked, other 'reasons;' are coming to light.)



Scenario:
I say I am going to shoot unit A. Then I change my mind and shoot unit B.
I say I am going to Run that unit. Then I change my mind and shoot with it instead.
etc. etc.
(there are some things you can't change, but those are stated as such.)

The rule does *not* say that you have to move it then, or not at all that turn.
The rule does *not* say that if you don't move it 'at all' right then, you can't move it later in the phase.

The rules *do* say you can measure before you move.
The rules *do* say you can move units in any order.
The rules *do* say that you can move any unit that has not already moved.
The rules are clear that measuring is *not* part of movement. (or no shooting heavy weapons)


So, I measure forward, then decide I will move it backwards instead. Then I decide I will not move it at all.
Later that phase..... that unit still have not moved, nor has it even started moving. Thus it is still eligible to be moved. So I move it sideways.

You are creating rules when you say that it can't be move "at all in that phase" (Seeing as how the rules don't include those words.)

So actually by your definition, it would mean that if you measure and choose not to move at all, those models would never ever be able to be moved again.
Like you said, there is no timestamp on "at all" and we all know that if it isnt written it isnt there. So "at all" means you cant move ever again. Seems to serve you right for trying that crap.

Kallbrand wrote:

coredump wrote:Gee Ghaz, you seem to have added a whole lot of words to that rule. Words that don't exist in the actual rule in the actual book.

Yes, we all know what 'at all' means. You are putting a timing restriction on it, and you are assuming that you can't change your mind later.

Again, there is nothing in the rules that say you can't change your mind.
You can't start move, and later finish move. But that is *not* the case here. (Though, it is interesting that it was the original claim, now that it has been debunked, other 'reasons;' are coming to light.)



Scenario:
I say I am going to shoot unit A. Then I change my mind and shoot unit B.
I say I am going to Run that unit. Then I change my mind and shoot with it instead.
etc. etc.
(there are some things you can't change, but those are stated as such.)

The rule does *not* say that you have to move it then, or not at all that turn.
The rule does *not* say that if you don't move it 'at all' right then, you can't move it later in the phase.

The rules *do* say you can measure before you move.
The rules *do* say you can move units in any order.
The rules *do* say that you can move any unit that has not already moved.
The rules are clear that measuring is *not* part of movement. (or no shooting heavy weapons)


So, I measure forward, then decide I will move it backwards instead. Then I decide I will not move it at all.
Later that phase..... that unit still have not moved, nor has it even started moving. Thus it is still eligible to be moved. So I move it sideways.

You are creating rules when you say that it can't be move "at all in that phase" (Seeing as how the rules don't include those words.)

So actually by your definition, it would mean that if you measure and choose not to move at all, those models would never ever be able to be moved again.
Like you said, there is no timestamp on "at all" and we all know that if it isnt written it isnt there. So "at all" means you cant move ever again. Seems to serve you right for trying that crap.

That's exactly what I said but apparently I'm the only deviant who thinks outside of one possible definition ... lol. But sarcasm aside, it's quite obvious that everyone sees multiple definitions of "at all" otherwise that unit would indeed not be able to move at all for the rest of the game ;P

Kallbrand wrote:[So actually by your definition, it would mean that if you measure and choose not to move at all, those models would never ever be able to be moved again.
Like you said, there is no timestamp on "at all" and we all know that if it isnt written it isnt there. So "at all" means you cant move ever again. Seems to serve you right for trying that crap.

And by your defintion, you'd be able to make you normal move in the Shooting phase or the Assault phase instead. Seems to me you're the one who's dishing out the crap. Try an actually counter the rule instead of making up nonsensical reasons why the rules can't actually say what they do. So once again, if you measure, you either move the models up to 6" in any direction or you decide not to move AT ALL in the Movement phase.

coredump wrote:The rule does *not* say that if you don't move it 'at all' right then, you can't move it later in the phase.

To dig up my favoured logical fallacy again, I can also point out that it does *not* say that if you don't move it 'at all' right then, you can't have your troops put on superman outfits and so on and so forth. What is does do however is say move, or don't move at all. Those are your only two options, and 'come back later' isn't on the list, at least not until next turn gives you another shot at it.

The rules are clear that measuring is *not* part of movement. (or no shooting heavy weapons)

Thats not actually the case. What is does say that measuring isn't a compulsion to move, nothing about it not being part of movement.

I see your point though and theres some weight in what you're saying based purely on a sequence of events standpoint but I find the presence of reinforcing 'not move at all' to be pushing to towards making a choice at that time. Incidently I did look up stormtrooper targeters out of curiousity, and they follow a similar sequence causing an effect nearly the same but with even looser wording as it doesn't place any requirement on making a choice of what to do that that point.

@beerfiend:

there is no multiple definiton of at all.

You're perfectly allowed to move them again...the next time the movement phase comes around, because at the beginning of the movement phase you're allowed (by the rules of the movement phase) to do everything again.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. All the "at all" does is allow two possibilities after measuring and chosing not to move- you can't move them ever again, or you can't move them again that movement phase. Any other reading is specifically ignoring the actual definition of at all. It doesn't matter if you think it's ambiguous if at all means "all all...until you're allowed to again because we re-started the whole thing in a new movement phase" or "at all...ever, just sit there buddy". The second interpretation is ridiculous for sure, but its mere existence is NOT an argument for being able to pre-measure.

Even if you can only measure from 1 unit before moving or not, wouldnt you still be able to 'premeasure' from that unit to all enemy units before deciding where to move?
"Can I charge that basilisk? hmm 36" away, guess Ill move 6" this other way."

So actually by your definition, it would mean that if you measure and choose not to move at all, those models would never ever be able to be moved again.

The opposite. Since there is no time on the statement, you can't say it is for the whole phase, and you can't say it is for the whole game. It is a decision made at that time, and that is it.
There is nothing saying it then counts as having moved. There is nothing saying it is restricted from moving from then on. There is nothing changing its options in the rules.

I've not added a single word, thank you.
Yet...
or you decide not to move AT ALL in the Movement phase.

Classic.
The rules do *NOT* give a time restriction, they say you must make a decision... that is all they state.

So I make a decision.... then later I can make a different decision.

The rules do not preclude that. Unless you add words....

And by your defintion, you'd be able to make you normal move in the Shooting phase or the Assault phase instead

Nice straw man.... since no one is making that claim, countering it isn't that bold of a move.
There are no rules that allow normal movement during the shooting/assault phases. There are rules allowing it in the movement phase.

To dig up my favoured logical fallacy again, I can also point out that it does *not* say that if you don't move it 'at all' right then, you can't have your troops put on superman outfits and so on and so forth.

yep, I understand. but the difference is that there is no rule that lets a model fly like Superman, but there are rules that lets me move my units in my movement phase. I can choose which units I want to move, and I can move them in any order.
So everything I want to do, has rules allowing it. The only issue is if a different rule is restricting the actions.

The rule says I need to make a decision, there is nothing saying that decision has to be permanent.
We make decisions all the time, and then change those decisions. Sometimes the rules say you can't change a decision.... but this is not one of those.


Whenever I start to move *any* unit, I can always decide to not move the unit; and then come back later and decide to move it. Nothing in this rule changes that.

The only restriction is that once you start moving a unit, you must complete its movement before moving on.
But measuring is not movement, so that doesn't apply.

Thats not actually the case. What is does say that measuring isn't a compulsion to move, nothing about it not being part of movement.

Well, if it is part of "moving" then you must complete everything before moving to the next unit. But if it is part of "moving" then once you do it you can't fire heavy weapons.
So however you define it, it effects both, or neither.

coredump wrote:

So actually by your definition, it would mean that if you measure and choose not to move at all, those models would never ever be able to be moved again.

The opposite. Since there is no time on the statement, you can't say it is for the whole phase, and you can't say it is for the whole game. It is a decision made at that time, and that is it.
There is nothing saying it then counts as having moved. There is nothing saying it is restricted from moving from then on. There is nothing changing its options in the rules.

Actually its pretty neat that I have to tell you (since english is your main language) that at all, is per definition unlimited in time. You may not move at all, that actuall means you cant move, ever, period. So if you wanna go by strict RAW that is what you will get, there is nothing limiting it, neither to this time you activate it, this movementphase or any time after. This is ofc. both stupid and silly, but thats what the wording means.


Ghaz just jumps the gun as usual without even realising I was actually agreeing with him for once, thats abit funny to see.

I have to say that after reading the passage on page 11, It looks to me like they are using the words "at all" in a casual sense and not a literal one.

It's like going to a restaurant and buying a hambuger once you decide that you might like a hambuger you begin to weigh your options. You look at the menu and see that:

a) You can have a hambuger with cheese
b) You can have a hambuger with bacon
c) You can have a hambuger with both cheese and bacon
d) Or you can decide not to have a hambuger at all.

There's nothing saying that you can't re-evaluate your decision 2 mins later and decide to go ahead and get a hambuger after all.

The 40k rules say that you cannot re-visit a unit once you have completed that unit's movement. They don't day that you cannot re-visit a unit you were merely thinking about moving earlier. Measuring distances is part of that decision. There's nothing in the rules that states once you've declared that you've decided not to move a unit then you may not change that decision later.

If someone in the shooting phase declares that a squad is not going to shoot but then changes their mind later and wants to shoot with them, they are allowed to do so. They are not locked in to their decision from earlier in the phase. You are only locked in to your choices when you choose to shoot. The only difference with the movement phase is that the rules state that you are allowed to pre-measure before you decide to move or not.

The rules are basically saying "you are allowed to declare that you are not going to move a unit at all". This is not the same as "Once you declare that you are not going to move a unit at all, that unit may not move during this movement phase."

It's pretty clear from the coptext the passage on page 11 is simply saying that once you begin to measure a potential movement for any given unit you are not committed to to actually moving that unit. That's it. That's all the passage is saying. It's simply confirming that just because you measure doesn't mean you must move. Any extra bit about being locked into your decision not to move is being added by people.

For the record, I've always seen it played this way. People start measuring to move a unit then change their mind. They switch to another unit and move it. Then they come back to the original unit and decide to move them after all. I don't see the big problem with this. Is it really that much of a game breaker?

Kallbrand wrote:Actually its pretty neat that I have to tell you (since english is your main language) that at all, is per definition unlimited in time. You may not move at all, that actuall means you cant move, ever, period.

Only if yoiu lack any reading comprehension and ignore the fact that the rules are in the section of the rulebook dealing with the Movement phase. Even wioth your flawed reading skills, it does not change what it says. It says 'at all', not 'at the present time' like you seem to think it says in your fantasy world.

holden88 wrote:d) Or you can decide not to have a hambuger at all.

There's nothing saying that you can't re-evaluate your decision 2 mins later and decide to go ahead and get a hambuger after all.

Because you didn't decide not to have a hamburger at all, did you? No. You just decided at a later time. That is not 'at all'.

This is why using "english language definitions" is flawed in rules arguments, because to be honest, phrases and words are only nebulously defined. This combined with GW's unwillingness to use the language with precision equal to say... a book of legal codes... leads to these rules debates.

While I agree with you in general, I believe this is not such a case. This is just a total lack of reading comprehension on their parts and a refusal to understand that 'at all' does not mean 'at this time'.

But since the movement phase doesn't have a cut-and-dry order of operations like the shooting and close combat phases... I think that a reasonable person could interpret it as exactly that.

'Order of operations' has nothing to do with it. 'At all' covers the entire phase.

Well, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but the rules don't say that. As has been mentioned, you can't really apply a set time-limit to the phrase.

It could mean for the entire phase.

It could mean for the entire game.

It could mean until you decide to come back to that unit later in the phase.

Of the three options, option number two is patently ridiculous. Options one and three are more in-line with the spirit of the game. And I believe (as do other posters) that option three has the most support by the rules.

'At all' means 'at all'. It covers the entirety of the Movement phase. Otherwise it would not be 'at all', would it? No. And likewise, it doesn't cover the entire game because it's in the rules for the Movement phase, just like the rest of the rules for movement. Or are you saying that all of the rules for movement can occur in any phase of the game? If not, then why does this one rule apply to entire game?

'At all' means the entire Movement phase. If they did not mean the entire Movement phase then once again, they would NOT have used the phrase 'at all'. No matter how many times you or the others keep repeating yourselves, it's not going to change that. If you could decide to move later in the Movement phase, then they would not have used 'at all'.

Ghaz wrote:'At all' means 'at all'. It covers the entirety of the Movement phase. Otherwise it would not be 'at all', would it?

I agree on that. Can't say for the monkey that writes down those sentences but I would have said "later" if I intended to allow measuring and then deciding to, you know, move later.

Ghaz wrote:'At all' means 'at all'. It covers the entirety of the Movement phase. Otherwise it would not be 'at all', would it? No. And likewise, it doesn't cover the entire game because it's in the rules for the Movement phase, just like the rest of the rules for movement. Or are you saying that all of the rules for movement can occur in any phase of the game? If not, then why does this one rule apply to entire game?

'At all' means the entire Movement phase. If they did not mean the entire Movement phase then once again, they would NOT have used the phrase 'at all'. No matter how many times you or the others keep repeating yourselves, it's not going to change that. If you could decide to move later in the Movement phase, then they would not have used 'at all'.

Is that written somewhere or are you making it up? Please back up your big talk with something that is actually written.

And again, there is NO WAY that 'at all' can mean 'later in this very same turn'. You are the one who needs to back up your imaginary defintion.

Kallbrand wrote:

Ghaz wrote:'At all' means 'at all'. It covers the entirety of the Movement phase. Otherwise it would not be 'at all', would it? No. And likewise, it doesn't cover the entire game because it's in the rules for the Movement phase, just like the rest of the rules for movement. Or are you saying that all of the rules for movement can occur in any phase of the game? If not, then why does this one rule apply to entire game?

'At all' means the entire Movement phase. If they did not mean the entire Movement phase then once again, they would NOT have used the phrase 'at all'. No matter how many times you or the others keep repeating yourselves, it's not going to change that. If you could decide to move later in the Movement phase, then they would not have used 'at all'.

Is that written somewhere or are you making it up? Please back up your big talk with something that is actually written.

It does, first paragraph under the heading "MOVEMENT DISTANCE" last sentence, last words.

I am with ghaz on this 100%. The rules after reading them several times (all of which is pretty much found on only a couple of paragraphs) seems pretty clear in my mind.

1) you only 'move' one unit at a time, and once done, you then move on to another unit
2) you can not go back and change a unit's move once you start moving another unit
3) once measuring you can choose to go in another direction entirely or choose to not move 'at all'

That's it folks. 'at all' like Ghaz says, is used (once you read the rules) to indicate that you are done moving that model and have decided to move another unit and can not go back and change your mind later as in step 2.

All 3 steps are found on page 11 in the first 2 paragraphs of the rules.

Remember the deciding to 'not' move a model once you have started to move it (i.e. measure it as indicated in the first paragraph) does IMHO mean you have initiated your steps as indicated again on page 3 under the heading "MEASURING DISTANCES" in which you may not measure distances unless a rule tells you too.

The rules tell you to measure for movement but only when moving a model. If you are not moving a model, then no measuring, and in the same token, once measured, you have started that models movement and moved it or decided to not move it 'at all'.

Otherwise you are pre-measuring.

So writing it in BIG letters now make it more true? I think thats a clear sign you dont have anything to back it up with.

Im still saying that "at all" doesnt have a timestamp and if you wanna be wordmongering about it, it will be forever. If you dont add a time stamp to it, thats excatly what it will mean. So im actually backing it up, with a standard dictionary, where do you find your way?

EDIT: Last entry was while I was writing.

I actually agree with that, but that is thru drawing a logical conclusion. There is nothing that sais it just applies during this activation, movementphase or even remotley like that. You seem to be backing it up under the fact that it is written under the section of movement rules but that doesnt by itself prove anything. You have alot of rules that applies and gives effects thru other phases then the one they were written under.

Still making up imaginary defitions you can't support I see. Go back to your fantasy world until you can find a dictionary that says 'at all' means 'later'. 'At all' does have a 'time stamp' on it based by where it's at in the rules. That's in the rules for the Movement phase. You however are trying to change it to have a completely different defintion that's not in any dictionary. Even without a 'time stamp', there is absolutely no way it can mean what you want it to.

edited: nevermind

Ghaz wrote:Still making up imaginary [I guess you mean definitions, but maybe english isnt your main language/Kall] defitions you can't support I see. Go back to your fantasy world until you can find a dictionary that says 'at all' means 'later'. 'At all' does have a 'time stamp' on it based by where it's at in the rules. That's in the rules for the Movement phase. You however are trying to change it to have a completely different defintion that's not in any dictionary. Even without a 'time stamp', there is absolutely no way it can mean what you want it to.

Ofc it is unlimited by definition.
For example: You cant have dinner at all, doesnt mean you can have dinner in an hour.. or 2.

Where do you find anything that makes it apply only for the movementphase or only this turn? Please point to the writing instead of just adding insults about my fantasy world. Othervise your opinion counts for squat.

Gentlemen, this thread has been reported. After reviewing there are multiple posts that require editing and potential action. However, as its the third thread of the morning and I've already enjoyed myself with suspensions, am posting a general reminder-POLITENESS IS REQUIRED. From this point forward please refrain from personal attacks and argue the merits of the, er, argument. I will be periodically reviewing this thread.

This is just a total lack of reading comprehension on their parts

It is always good when a rules debate devolves into insults.


Ghaz, it does *not* say "at all that phase". It doesn't. Nope. Not there.

You keep claiming it 'means' that, but it does not *say* that.

You must make a decision.... you are always free to change your decision.


I can 'decide' a lot of things during a game.

For example, I can decide to shoot my lascannons at the Carnifex, and I can even say it. But I am free to change my mind and shoot something else, or even not shoot. Or not shoot right away, but shoot something else and shoot the lascannons later.

Another example, at the beginning of my phase I decide to move both marine squads.
Then I decide to measure for one.
Then I *change* my decision, and decide to *not* move either one.
Then I move my vehicles, and then change my decision again; I decide I do want to move both marine squads.

The rules *say*
I can move a unit during the movement phase. I can decide to move, or not move, as often as I want. I just can't start the move, and finish it later.


The term 'at all' does not have a time duration associated with it. This does not mean it is permanent, it means it is indefinite. In this case it is tied to a decision, as always, you can change your decisions if you so choose.

Ghaz wrote:

holden88 wrote:d) Or you can decide not to have a hambuger at all.

There's nothing saying that you can't re-evaluate your decision 2 mins later and decide to go ahead and get a hambuger after all.

Because you didn't decide not to have a hamburger at all, did you? No. You just decided at a later time. That is not 'at all'.

Yes, and why can't this same logic apply to the game.

Here is the basic structure of the movement phase.

1) Pick one of your units that has not moved yet.
2) Measure any possible moves for this unit.
3) You may now move this unit or decide to not move it at all.
4) Go back to step 1 and repeat until all your units have moved or you decide to end the movement phase.

This is pretty straight forward. I don't think there's too much to debate here. It's all straight out of the book. Obviously there are some things I've not covered here like falling back, difficult terrain, pinning etc.. but these things don't really impact our discussion.

Still with me? Good. Now, step 3 above (and page 11 of the BGR) doesn't say "you may decide to not move a unit at all this movement phase". It simply says not at all. As in no movement. This is not the same as a movement of zero. This means no movement at all. As in the absense of movement. As in the unit doesn't make any kind of movement and doesn't count as having been moved. I think everyone agree's on this? Even though you have measured a possible move for this unit you may still fire heavy weapons in the up coming shooting phase for example? The at all part is simply refering to the fact that I decided to move a unit so I began measuring but then I changed my mind and decided not to move it at all.

The fact that I have pondered possible movement for a unit (by conducting measurements) does not somehow "activate" this unit and make it ineligible for future consideration.

So now were back to step 1 and I once again select a unit that hasn't moved yet to start the sequence over. Any unit I may have previously selected for movement but decided to not move at all is still eligible at this time because these units haven't moved yet. It doesn't matter that I may have decided not to move a unit earlier in the phase. The only criteria used to determine if a unit is eligiable for selection or not is: "has the unit moved yet this phase".

In other words step 1 does not say:

1) Pick one of your units that has not moved yet. This unit cannot be a unit that was previosly selected earlier in this phase.

Padixon,

That's it folks. 'at all' like Ghaz says, is used (once you read the rules) to indicate that you are done moving that model and have decided to move another unit and can not go back and change your mind later as in step 2.

the bolded part is what I question.
Part 2 says you can't *change* your move, I am not changing the move. I am changing my decision to not move.

If Measuring was included in 'moving', I would agree with you.
Shooting says that once you measure, you are considered to have shot. The movement rules do not say anything like that. Measuring is not part of moving.
If it *was* part of moving, than once you measure, you would have 'moved', and can't shoot heavy weapons. (And we know that isn't right.)

So, measuring is *not* part of 'moving'; it is something that is done before you move.

Otherwise you are pre-measuring.

It says you can measure before moving, and then you can move or not. That is all we are doing.




edit:
I just want to stress that people keep adding words to the rules.

They do not say
"at all this phase"
"at all this turn"
"at all this game"
"at all this minute"
"at all ever"

There is no set amount of time referenced, to say otherwise is adding words to the rules.

As it stands "at all' is indefinite, it means that is the way it is at that moment, and it will stay that way for an indefinite amount of time. It is not set to last a turn, or phase, or game, or whatever. It will be that way until it changes. And it changes when the player changes his mind.

"I am not going to eat at all"
If 15 minutes later I decide to have a snack, it does not mean the original statement was false.

"I am not going to eat at all today"
Now, if I snack in 15 minutes, it means the original statement was false.

I would agree with you coredump except that I am convinced on how the rule on "MEASURING DISTANCES" on page 3 and the 2 paragraphs on page 11 interact.

What I mean to say is that you may not measure distances unless a rule tells you to do so.

And on page 11 we measure the distance to move a model.

These rules do interact. For a player to follow both rules without breaking either of them is to:

1) decide to move a model: thus giving permission to measure
2) follow the rules for moving a model and measure in any direction to move the model or decide to not move 'at all'

These 2 rules interact because to satisfy the "measuring distance" rule I first must be given permission to move a model in the first place, and that is given when a decision is made 'to move' a model.

Hence you satisfy the quote "Once you have started moving a unit..." Because to be able to measure in the first place you must first decide to move a model...and once you start to move a model "you must finish its move before you start to move another unit. You may not go back and change the move already made by a previous unit."

And to continue on page 11 "...and then change you mind to....decide not to move it at all." and thus completing this models movement and therefore restricted to going back to it because you have already started its movement by measuring as the rule on page 3.

The crux of this entire discussion is whether measuring constitutes "...started moving a unit..."

And to sum my post for the lazy, is the rule on page 3 "MEASURING DISTANCES" requires a rule to state you can measure in the first place, and to be able to measure in the first place you must 'move' a model, but you may decide to not move 'at all' but that does not take away the fact the player "...started moving a unit..."

NOTE: A good note to take is the fact the rule only says "started moving", and then says "finish its move" which means as soon as you start you must finish, there is no pause.

the morale of the story is think before you start measuring.

Also, the whole argument about the words 'at all' has no bearing 'at all' on how I read this rule. (pun intended )

EDIT: Again as usual its very OK to disagree, we all have different ways of looking at things and that is perfectly fine. But, this is how I see it, but the irony of internet forums is in the end despite all the time we spend typing and 'arguing' are opinions mean completely jack, lol.

Another EDIT: I for one am NOT a rules stickler, and in fact on several occasions have asked my opponent (especially if they are new) to go back even several moves ago to make a change because what they did was pretty stupid and would lead to a quick end and no fun for either of us.

In friendly games and even in competition games sometimes I do not practice what I preach with this current rule. Because we are supposed to have fun first and everything else second.

coredump wrote:

"I am not going to eat at all"
If 15 minutes later I decide to have a snack, it does not mean the original statement was false.

That most definently makes your statement false.

willydstyle wrote:...can't really apply a set time-limit to the phrase.

It could mean for the entire phase.

It could mean for the entire game.

It could mean until you decide to come back to that unit later in the phase.

Of the three options, option number two is patently ridiculous. ..option three has the most support by the rules.

I concur, though in practice I am completely against premeasuring as a concept in a table top game. Wildstyle's post illustrates the reason "at all" is indefinite, literally taken a model could never move again.

literally taken a model could never move again...until another rule came along and allowed it to happen.

Which is exactly what happens when you return to your movement phase the next time.

I still don't understand, even outside of this, why people consider the initial rules of movement to be meaningless.

They say "Once a unit has completed its movement, a player selects another one , and so on, until the player has moved all the units he wishes to move"

If you take the sentence "It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's movement in one direction, and then change your mind and move it somewhere else...or not move it at all" and combine it with the fact that you can't go to another unit until you've completed a units movement...what justification do you have for measuring the other moves?

I select a unit. I measure all over the place for it. What allows me to then select another unit and measure all over the place for it? Have I completed the other units movement? Well, no. Did I have any legal reason to measure it's movement? I don't see any.

So that leaves a contradiction - you have the ability to not move it "at all" - which some are interpreting to mean "until I feel like it later". Thats fine...but once you've selected a unit to measure, you have no legal right to select another one - you cannot select another unit until "a unit has completed its movement".

So then the argument becomes that measuring is not selecting the unit or "starting to move it". Which is fine, but does not explain why you are allowed to measure. If my opponent was trying to play that way if they wanted to measure a move I'd say "are you selecting this unit to move?". If they said no, I'd ask them what rule allows them to measure if they aren't planning on moving that unit right now. There doesn't happen to be one. It may be perfectly fine to measure a units move in one direction and decide to go the other way, or not move at all, but it isn't perfectly fine to measure a move you know you have no intention of making. Since you can't select another unit until this one is done...you're not getting to measure another unit either.

In other words, you have to have a reason to measure. Wanting to see how far something can move in various directions is not a reason to measure the move. You can only justify measuring a move you intend to actually make. Even if you then decide "oh, I'll not move at all", you have no right to select another unit until you're done with the current one.

Not that this will convince anyone, but I think everyone in this thread is beyond convincing anyway.

When you get down to discussing the english definition of rules rather than context there is not a good chance of reaching a consensus on what it means. Stuff like this should just be put in a general FAQ and/or decided where you play because no matter what you think, people are just discussing english interpretations rather than an actual rule.

Hence you satisfy the quote "Once you have started moving a unit..." Because to be able to measure in the first place you must first decide to move a model...and once you start to move a model "you must finish its move before you start to move another unit. You may not go back and change the move already made by a previous unit."

because you have already started its movement by measuring as the rule on page 3.

The crux of this entire discussion is whether measuring constitutes "...started moving a unit..."

I agree with just about everything you are saying. This bit, however, seems to be causing the 'problem'.

If you say that measuring is part of moving a model, than I totally agree that you can't measure, and then come back later.

But I do not see how you can say that measuring is part of moving. If it *does* count as part of moving, then once you measure, you can't decide to 'not move', since you have already started.
Second, once you measure, if that is included as part of 'moving' it also means you can't fire heavy weapons.

I see no way to support that measuring means that you are moving. And if it is not moving, then you have not started moving.

Not that this will convince anyone, but I think everyone in this thread is beyond convincing anyway.

Maybe, maybe not. But I like the latest tack you have taken, it brings up some new angles for the discussion.

For example

It may be perfectly fine to measure a units move in one direction and decide to go the other way, or not move at all, but it isn't perfectly fine to measure a move you know you have no intention of making.

I can agree with this. If you are not planning on moving the unit, it is an exploit of the rules to measure for the unit. Similarly, I believe it is at least poor sportsmanship to measure every possible move for each unit, and then start moving.

if they wanted to measure a move I'd say "are you selecting this unit to move?".

I can respect that. But will you always do that?
What if I want to move assault marines 4", (so I don't need to measure), I pick the first one up to move it, then put it back because I want to move my rhino first.
Do you play it that since I 'selected' the assault marines, I have to complete their movement before moving on?
What if I didn't pick up the model, but said I was going to move them (thereby defacto 'selecting' them), how would you play it?

I can see a hardline reading of "select the next one", but then you need to be consistent. With your interpretation, measuring is no longer the concern, 'selecting' is.

Thats fine...but once you've selected a unit to move, you have no legal right to select another one - you cannot select another unit until "a unit has completed its movement".

I have made a minor change so it reflects the actual rule. You select a unit to move.... once you make that selection, you can't select another unit until you have completed that units movement.

Again, I can respect that, but I don't think it is at all how it was meant to be played. This is not chess where once you touch the piece, you have to move it.

I think you misunderstood me a little. What I am trying to say is the 'decision and measurement' to move starts the movement of the model and the 'decision' is what prompts the measurement. Once a measurement is taken, that models 'move' is being 'evaluated'. The player at that point can always choose to move/not move as he sees fit, and of course not incur any penalties besides not being able to move the model again that turn.

Remember the 'measuring distance' rule must be followed like any other rule. To follow it means a rule has to tell us to measure in the first place. But to measure for movement requires the player to "start to move" the model.

Hence why I stand on this side of the debate. Just because a player decides not to move, the fact he measured is the moment he 'started' and then 'finished' the 'movement' or lack thereof of the unit.

Just for me, the key is not whether the model moved, but whether a measurement was taken and a decision made.

For example going by page 11 at what point does the term "...started moving a unit..." actually occur?

Is it when the player physically moves the model? And if he does, and decides to place him back and not move him at all, does this mean that he never "...started moving a unit..."?

Do you see what I mean? You can logically say that any movement of the model, even resting your finger on it can justify the qualifier "...started moving a unit..." kinda like chess almost.

My point is the qualifier is actually in the decision to move the model that is then enacted by the means of making a measurement which is semi-required on page 11 and justified on page 3.

Again, the crux for everyone is what qualifies for "...started moving a unit..."

EDIT: I do not play this way, because it seems too.....picky. But, anyone can see that this can be abused if pre-measuring was allowed to occur. You can easily pre-measure all your units, and then start moving them and already know if you are in assault range with another unit. I have never seen anyone abuse this and I feel it would probably be pretty obvious if they did and would only at that point start to be a little pickier about movement rules.

@coredump:

There is a clear rule for what happens if you move a unit (even a litte) - "once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit"

So in the example of the 4" assault marine move, even though you didn't measure it you'd be caught by that rule. In this regard measuring isn't the only way a unit can be selected - but it is one of the ways.

I agree that the game is not chess. But chess has a specific rule for when a move is finished. 40k has a specific rule that says once you start a move, you have to finish it. So we're just arguing over what constitutes starting a move.

I agree that a flat declaration of "I select this unit" is not specifically how the game is intended to play, and I wouldn't necessarily expect it. But I don't believe you have any justification for measuring unless you've selected the unit to move - it's implicit. Just as if you picked up your assault marine and moved him 4" is implicitly selecting the unit. I'm only asking for explicit declaration because otherwise I don't feel that anyone has any justification for measuring, per the rules on page 3.