221
Post by: Frazzled
Starting a new thread as the other one has maxed crit mass.
Please reference here for the earlier discussion and current rumors sticky.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/232594.page
11729
Post by: Gestalt
I read that the merging of squads only applies to Platoon Infantry squads, so a platoon is still minimum 2 KP and the medic only affects 5 guys. Still havent seen confirmation on Heavy weapon squad size, 6 or 10. Hopefully 10 if they cant merge to get some extra wounds.
I dont know how many tourney lists will be fitting 6-7 Lemans in. Anything deep striking/turbo boosting/flanking could probably live through the 1-2 turns you put out with that and wreck the infantry. Put too much in tanks and its like the monolith, they just ignore the armor and kill the infantry so you can at best get a draw unless you clear the board.
What do we have for leadership now? LD8 is nice, but thats still a 28% chance of running, and without ID we lose a second chance to rally. I assume the CHQ standard will still allow a reroll within 12" but I doubt that will work through a vox. Though I will probably get a vox network anyway for orders. Do commissars still add +1 LD that works through Vox?
Edit: Does the rank fire order affect plasma guns? I assume you still get 0 shots >12" if you move.
4412
Post by: George Spiggott
Bah! long post squashed by the lock and IE.
Has anyone run any of their current army lists through the rumours to see how they look?
I'll do so later tonight.
168
Post by: foil7102
I agree, the new power, just looking at this list is 6 Russ's in three squadrons of 2. Backed back tons of infantry, with as many penal squads as can be mixed in (assuming 50 points for a squad of 10) and a chimeras sprinkled in.
11530
Post by: ChaseMacKenzie
foil7102 wrote:I agree, the new power, just looking at this list is 6 Russ's in three squadrons of 2. Backed back tons of infantry, with as many penal squads as can be mixed in (assuming 50 points for a squad of 10) and a chimeras sprinkled in.
By current squadron rules your three LRs will be firing at the same target and Immobilized = Destroyed
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
I'm thinking 6 Russes and 3 Bassies. Massive firepower!!
I seriosuly cannot wait to blast the hell out my enemies with this new codex. It doesn't sound like I'll be changing too much, really, just using more armor per game.
I really do need to wait until we hear more about veterans though before I settle on one build.
9598
Post by: Quintinus
I don't think that I can accurately display my feelings for this codex without getting banned.
This entire codex suffers from Sternguard Syndrome. What's next? 100 point Junior Officers? Screw you, Robin Cruddace.
I was excited for this codex until point costs came out. This codex is going to suck.
I went from wanting to buy Ogryns, Stormtroopers, and Valkyries to just the IG Codex itself and the Advisors. Of course, I'm assuming that the Advisors aren't going to suck as hugely as the rest of the crud I've read about.
Here I thought that the 3rd time was the charm. Well I was wrong. Thanks GW, you just lost around $200 from me. Of course, I'm sure some clown will make that up for me, so I guess you don't care.
Well good, because I don't care either. From this point on, I will only buy from Independent Retailers/Online indy retailers like the Warstore and Chaos Orc. I refuse to give GW my money if they can't even get a damned codex right the THIRD FETHING TIME.
168
Post by: foil7102
ChaseMacKenzie wrote:foil7102 wrote:I agree, the new power, just looking at this list is 6 Russ's in three squadrons of 2. Backed back tons of infantry, with as many penal squads as can be mixed in (assuming 50 points for a squad of 10) and a chimeras sprinkled in.
By current squadron rules your three LRs will be firing at the same target and Immobilized = Destroyed
Please read what I typed a little more closely and then comment again.
7259
Post by: Deathmachine
Vladsimpaler wrote:I don't think that I can accurately display my feelings for this codex without getting banned.
This entire codex suffers from Sternguard Syndrome. What's next? 100 point Junior Officers? Screw you, Robin Cruddace.
I was excited for this codex until point costs came out. This codex is going to suck.
I went from wanting to buy Ogryns, Stormtroopers, and Valkyries to just the IG Codex itself and the Advisors. Of course, I'm assuming that the Advisors aren't going to suck as hugely as the rest of the crud I've read about.
Here I thought that the 3rd time was the charm. Well I was wrong. Thanks GW, you just lost around $200 from me. Of course, I'm sure some clown will make that up for me, so I guess you don't care.
Well good, because I don't care either. From this point on, I will only buy from Independent Retailers/Online indy retailers like the Warstore and Chaos Orc. I refuse to give GW my money if they can't even get a damned codex right the THIRD FETHING TIME.
Wow and you havent even seen it yet. and your saying it sucks well if thats how you feel then why are you even in this hobby? just to cry about GW and how they dont do what you want?
168
Post by: foil7102
I am really exited about this new codex. I think that it will be just as good as Starwars episode 1, Indiana Jones and the kingdom of the crystal skull, or the Godfather 3. Can not wait!
11530
Post by: ChaseMacKenzie
foil7102 wrote:ChaseMacKenzie wrote:foil7102 wrote:I agree, the new power, just looking at this list is 6 Russ's in three squadrons of 2. Backed back tons of infantry, with as many penal squads as can be mixed in (assuming 50 points for a squad of 10) and a chimeras sprinkled in.
By current squadron rules your three LRs will be firing at the same target and Immobilized = Destroyed
Please read what I typed a little more closely and then comment again.
ohh wow, I am stupid...my mistake sir, squadrons of two was my going plan for LR or Basilisks, anything more than that seemed wasteful
9598
Post by: Quintinus
foil7102 wrote:I am really exited about this new codex. I think that it will be just as good as Starwars episode 1, Indiana Jones and the kingdom of the crystal skull, or the Godfather 3. Can not wait!
My thoughts exactly. In fact, consider yourself sigged.
@Deathmachine- Have you even read the rumors about this piece o' crud codex? I don't think so. Go read through the last 10 or so pages, and you'll see why I'm so pissed. Is it too much to ask for a codex that doesn't suck the big one? I guess so!
666
Post by: Necros
So, fluff-wise, what's the difference between conscripts and penal guys? Are the conscripts convicted felons that they just gave guns to? Are the penal legion fellas just hive gangers that wanna help out?
11530
Post by: ChaseMacKenzie
Necros wrote:So, fluff-wise, what's the difference between conscripts and penal guys? Are the conscripts convicted felons that they just gave guns to? Are the penal legion fellas just hive gangers that wanna help out?
When in history, 40k or the real world has a conscript ever been a convicted felon.
12756
Post by: Military-Governor
foil7102 wrote:I am really exited about this new codex. I think that it will be just as good as Starwars episode 1, Indiana Jones and the kingdom of the crystal skull, or the Godfather 3. Can not wait!
OFF: I hope that was ironic... SW 1 is 
ON: I'm looking forward this codex, need the extra tank support.
2175
Post by: Chaplain Pallantide
@Foil: I was thinking the same thing right now. 6 Leman Russ' in units of 2 backed by troops, I was thinking about going the veteran route and have 4 squads of 10 vets, but I'll have to see about regular troops.
But I just like the idea behind veterans though, supposedly they are 80pts for 10 men according to Col. Graves (sp??).
4351
Post by: ubermosher
Vladsimpaler wrote:
@Deathmachine- Have you even read the rumors about this piece o' crud codex? I don't think so. Go read through the last 10 or so pages, and you'll see why I'm so pissed. Is it too much to ask for a codex that doesn't suck the big one? I guess so!
I share your passion for IG, but seriously man, you're not doing yourself a favor by getting this worked up over these rumors. There are still many contradictions amongst these last 10 or so pages. I know you just want a great army, as do I, but relax, take a deep breath, and a.) wait to see the codex in its entirety, and b.) try playing a couple of times with it before speed-dialing the Exterminatus order on GW.
Give it a solid month of playtime, and if after June 1 you feel the same way, I'll even ' QFT' a few of your rants. 
4412
Post by: George Spiggott
ChaseMacKenzie wrote:Necros wrote:So, fluff-wise, what's the difference between conscripts and penal guys? Are the conscripts convicted felons that they just gave guns to? Are the penal legion fellas just hive gangers that wanna help out?
When in history, 40k or the real world has a conscript ever been a convicted felon.
Black and Tan ( UK), WWII Russia (where being late for work was a prisonable offence) and Germany. Whenever conscription is in force 'signing up' is often used as a form of rehabilitation for minor offences.
[edit] Last chancers, Human Bombs, Servitors, Penitent Engines and Arco Flagelants are all criminals.
12756
Post by: Military-Governor
ChaseMacKenzie wrote:Necros wrote:So, fluff-wise, what's the difference between conscripts and penal guys? Are the conscripts convicted felons that they just gave guns to? Are the penal legion fellas just hive gangers that wanna help out?
When in history, 40k or the real world has a conscript ever been a convicted felon.
In WWII SS used convicted criminals and russan POWs. Direwangler and Kaminski brigades to break down rebellions in Poland and Slovakia. Read: John Keegan Second Wold War.
12756
Post by: Military-Governor
Yeah forgot about the russians. And every major army had a penal battalion- normal soldiers commited crimes against military law. British used to make them penal camps. Germans used them to mine clearing duty, so on.
3309
Post by: Flinty
Based on the info in the sticky post am I right in thinking that IG tanks can no longer take Storm Bolters?
221
Post by: Frazzled
Conscripts are draftees (or new troops). Penals are battalions of criminals-criminal or political- who are now working off their sentence.
Visualize operation Uranus and Enermy at the Gates
*Conscripts are the guys just pulled off the train and sent right into the fighting.
*Penal troops are criminals sent to attack first-backed by commissars with machine guns as motivation.
I am the thing...from Uranus!  
12756
Post by: Military-Governor
I found them useless anyway. HS is better.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
I like storm bolters on my command squads.
I really HATE arming my command troopers with any sort of CCW. Boltguns, stormbolters, plasma guns (especially now that they have FNP)... Lasguns are only if absolutely necessary!
666
Post by: Necros
ah.. for some reason I always thought for IG conscripts were fellas in prison given a chance to win their parole if the happened to live through a certain battle or something like that
686
Post by: aka_mythos
I think its silly to get uppity over this. They clearly intend to emphasize the Guardsman over other aspects of the army. While IG armies have all these other bells and whistles it is the Guardsmen that are at the core and most common. I think it is irrational to get as emotional as some people here have when we haven't seen the book or even all the rules.
Everything those people say can be summed up here: "OMG WTF! 35pt Ogryn, 16pt Storm Troopers! What the hells... I quit and by that I mean I'm going to come back two months later and buy more "
My question is, what if when they come out Ogryn are worth 35 or more pts and Stormtrooper are worth 16 or more pts would they then be worth the cost? Simply yes, but we don't know what they're worth only what they cost. So we have to wait.
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
aka_mythos wrote:Everything those people say can be summed up here: "OMG WTF! 35pt Ogryn, 16pt Storm Troopers! What the hells... I quit and by that I mean I'm going to come back two months later and buy more "
QFT. I was wondering when we were going to get to this point with this codex. Happens with every new one.
12756
Post by: Military-Governor
aka_mythos wrote:some people here have when we haven't seen the book or even all the rules.
Everything those people say can be summed up here: "OMG WTF! 35pt Ogryn, 16pt Storm Troopers! What the hells... I quit and by that I mean I'm going to come back two months later and buy more "
Yepp. I am closely following the treads ( khm threads) and most people said that the new codex already, just based on rumors. I only play like 6 month but I already know there will be good stuff in it (if the rumors are true). LMR behemoth rule.
4351
Post by: ubermosher
Flinty wrote:Based on the info in the sticky post am I right in thinking that IG tanks can no longer take Storm Bolters?
There was a storm bolter entry on the leaked reference sheet, so it's reasonable to believe they are still an option.
1321
Post by: Asmodai
George Spiggott wrote:Bah! long post squashed by the lock and IE.
Has anyone run any of their current army lists through the rumours to see how they look?
I'll do so later tonight.
Here's my current list:
Imperial Guard Unit Roster – Cadian 12th Rifles
HQ: Command Platoon (672)
Command Squad led by a Captain Sumarkanth (Junior Officer) with Power Weapon, Veteran Medic, Veteran Standard Bearer (67)
Anti-Tank Squad, 3x Missile Launcher (95)
Anti-Tank Squad, 3x Missile Launcher (95)
Fire Support Squad, 3x Heavy Bolter (80)
Fire Support Squad, 3x Heavy Bolter (80)
Fire Support Squad, 3x Autocannon (95)
Fire Support Squad, 3x Autocannon (95)
HQ: Colonel-Commissar Gaunt (75) / Commissar with Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol (46)
EL: 10 Storm Troopers, 2x Meltagun, Veteran Sergeant Malik with Power Weapon and Meltabombs (126)
Chimera with hull Heavy Bolter, Multilaser, Pintle Heavy Stubber, Extra Armour and Smoke Launchers (105)
EL: 10 Storm Troopers, 2x Plasma Gun, Veteran Sergeant Solkar with Power Weapon and Meltabombs (126)
Chimera with hull Heavy Bolter, Multilaser, Pintle Heavy Stubber, Extra Armour and Smoke Launchers (105)
EL: Tech-Priest Enginseer Mandavya (45)
TR: Infantry Platoon (378)
Command Squad led by a Lieutenant Gautama (Junior Officer), 2x Flamer (53)
3x Infantry Squad with Lascannon and Plasma Gun (95 x3)
5 Remnants with Meltagun (40)
TR: Infantry Platoon (283)
Command Squad led by a Lieutenant Kachwa (Junior Officer), 2x Flamer (53)
2x Infantry Squad with Lascannon and Plasma Gun (95 x2)
5 Remnants with Meltagun (40)
TR: Armoured Fist Squad with Lascannon and Plasma Gun (95)
Chimera with hull HB, Multilaser, Pintle Heavy Stubber, Extra Armour and Smoke Launchers (105)
FA: Hellhound Intrepid with Extra Armour, Smoke Launchers, Pintle Heavy Stubber (135)
FA: Hellhound Pyros with Extra Armour, Smoke Launchers and Pintle Heavy Stubber (135)
HS: Leman Russ Battle Tank Devastation with hull Heavy Bolter (145)
HS: Leman Russ Battle Tank Warspite with hull Heavy Bolter, Improved Comms and Searchlight (166)
HS: Leman Russ Demolisher Sycamore with hull Lascannon, Plasma Cannon Sponsons, and Searchlight (186)
HS: Basilisk Thunderer with Indirect Fire (125)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total: 3111 points (152 models)( HQ: 682 (42 models), EL: 577 (27 models), TR: 960 (81 models), FA: 270 (2 models), HS: 622 (4 models))
The Hellhounds and the Heavy Support will be getting more expensive. The cheaper Chimeras will offset the increased price of the Stormtroopers. The Fire Support and Anti-Tank squads attached to the HQ will get moved to troops - I may also need to shuffle around some of the heavy weapons to best take advantage of the orders system. Remnants are gone, so those squads will be rolled up into Troops Squads. Likewise, I'll probably shift the Flamers out of the Command Squads. My models already have a vox-network, that has been down 'because of electrical interference' for years. That electrical storm will finally lift - probably leaving them at about the same price.
With 5th ed's cover saves, I may move the valuable Lascannons to a seperate squad and give the line troops Heavy Bolters instead.
(NB: This is the list of what I have available, so obviously it doesn't strictly conform with selection criteria.)
10279
Post by: focusedfire
ChaseMacKenzie wrote:By current squadron rules your three LRs will be firing at the same target and Immobilized = Destroyed
*I've got a strong feeling that the squadron commander tank allows you to split the fire of the squad and for that cost could even negate the squadron rule.
*With a commander they might be able to make use of some variant of the orders rules.
*Note this is speculation
I've said it before and will again. To Anybody that hates this codex before actually seeing it. I'll buy your storm troopers, chimeras, & LRBT ....negotiations start at .10 cents on the dollar but the offer is good only before the sneak peek comes out the 21st of march.
Has anybody found out what the cost of a vet squad deepstriking w/meltas is going to be. Don't be surprised if it really close to the storms. I've also noticed that there has been no rumor that you have to buy a whole 10-man squad of the stormies as opposed to the vets.  Methinks there may be some devilery afoot.
9910
Post by: CommissarKhaine
+1
I still think the new codex sounds very promising. We don"t know how tank squadrons will work, we don't knwo exact rules (hell even points! ) for storm troops and ogryns... Some rumours are good, some bad. I won't even judge when holding the codex: I'll judge when I've played a few battles. For all the cheese that was cried about orcs, they're beatable... Hell, I finished fourth with my IG in a 60-man tournament just this Februay. No judging till you've played the codex folks! 
168
Post by: foil7102
6 man special weapon team with three plasma guns. 45 points for the plasma (hopefully) 30 points for the guys (hopefully) so 75 points. Double tapping and while under the "shoot you bastards" order. They will take out 4 marines on average.
10 stormies with two plasmas so 190 points, double tapping under the "shoot you bastards" order = 9 dead marines, assuming no cover.
9910
Post by: CommissarKhaine
Not to mention their own special orders... Almost worth the points at that rate .
3837
Post by: Korcheski
focusedfire wrote:ChaseMacKenzie wrote:By current squadron rules your three LRs will be firing at the same target and Immobilized = Destroyed
*I've got a strong feeling that the squadron commander tank allows you to split the fire of the squad and for that cost could even negate the squadron rule.
*With a commander they might be able to make use of some variant of the orders rules.
*Note this is speculation
I would put money on this that you are right. We all know nothing HAS to make sense or be logical, but having a commander upgrade that allows you to make a leadership test to attack a different target doesn't seem far fetched.
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
I'm thinking that while Lumbering Behemoth is going to get a lot of folks excited about blazing away with a full contingent of sponsons in addition to their turret Ordnance, I think that the most efficient use of LRBTs is going to be the continued use of sponson-free LRBTs. Maybe upgrading the hull HB to a LC if you're low on AT in other parts of the list. But really, with various price increases going on, IG are going to be looking at where to save costs. We often talk about "will a model make its points back" - I think that's a good basic analysis to make. But I think we'll need to take it one step further and say, "will model X make more points back than model Y" (in this case where model X is a LRBT with sponsons and Y is a LRBT without.) I mean, at 20 points for HB sponsons, if you take 6 LRBTs - if you go without sponsons, you're saving enough points to be most of the way to another LRBT.
Considering the fact that I just finished converting up 3 Hellhounds, I'm a little disappointed by the cost increase. But everyone knew the Hellhound was in for a nerf. It was just a matter of how hard they hit it with the nerfbat. I keep seeing conflicting rumors about whether or not the Inferno Cannon gets its 24" range - if it doesn't, then I'll be pretty disappointed. If it keeps the 24" range, then I think it will just be mildly overpriced.
I'm more at a loss over what to do about my Demolisher, though. Full las/plas loadout is going to be expensive. It always was one of the biggest points sinks in an IG army - now, even more so. I've heard some folks contemplating going back to MM sponsons on their Demolishers what with the Lumbering Behemoth rule, but I don't think that really solves the problem. Yes, it's cheaper. But the reason you have las/plas is for some decent ranged fire on the chassis.
Some of the artillery looks pretty good, too, although I haven't done a full think-through of the options yet. I've always loved how the Hydra looks, and at 75 points a pop, they're one of the cheaper models. But depending on what the weapons loadout winds up at - whether it's 2x twin-linked or 4x will really effect my decision. At any rate, I've got 5 Chimeras I was planning to use for troop transport. But with arty looking tempting, I may need to convert up some using my Chimeras.
214
Post by: ThirdUltra
Korcheski wrote:focusedfire wrote:ChaseMacKenzie wrote:By current squadron rules your three LRs will be firing at the same target and Immobilized = Destroyed
*I've got a strong feeling that the squadron commander tank allows you to split the fire of the squad and for that cost could even negate the squadron rule.
*With a commander they might be able to make use of some variant of the orders rules.
*Note this is speculation
I would put money on this that you are right. We all know nothing HAS to make sense or be logical, but having a commander upgrade that allows you to make a leadership test to attack a different target doesn't seem far fetched.
Or it is entirely possible that the command tank confers the ability to ignore shaken/stunned results on the damage table ala Apoc.
Would make the tank squadron a bit more resilient....
10279
Post by: focusedfire
Don't know how Leadership Test would work on a vehicle. But it would be easy enought to make a rule just stating that it occurs.
Kinda like how the Tau vehicles can split fire if you take the target lock upgrade. (Always bothered me that the vehicle and crisis suit multi-track and target locks were same name but different purposes. I always end up having to explain it to opponents.)
@ foil- Nice mathhammer there. Effectively shows the point.
10279
Post by: focusedfire
@ Third,
Squadrons already ignore stunned results as per the BRB.
4351
Post by: ubermosher
New question: Do we know a points cost for a vox upgrade yet?
Edit: Ninja'd
1523
Post by: Saldiven
Necros wrote:So, fluff-wise, what's the difference between conscripts and penal guys? Are the conscripts convicted felons that they just gave guns to? Are the penal legion fellas just hive gangers that wanna help out?
Conscript = a person drafted into the military. Usually a common citizen who is required by law (like the USA's draft laws) to serve a mandatory term in the military if called to do so. Conscription and the draft are the same thing. They are usually trained to a minimum level as a soldier and are not professional military types.
Penal trooper = convicted criminals that are either forced to serve as troops or are given the opportunity to serve in lieu of being sent to prison. May or may not have as much training as a conscript. Some members of the French Foreign Legion might be considered "penal" troops, as they joined to hide from some sort of criminal investigation, but the majority wouldn't be any better (and probably much worse) than conscripts in quality. If you've watched the "Dirty Dozen" movies, those would qualify as penal troops, though highly trained ones.
131
Post by: malfred
Saldiven wrote:
Penal trooper = .
Good night, everybody!
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
CommissarKhaine wrote:we don't knwo exact rules (hell even points! ) for storm troops and ogryns...
We know the points costs for STs and Ogryns, 16 and 35, respectively. These are as solid as rumors go, nobody is attempting to contradict them. The only thing we don't know about Ogryns is whether or not the Bonehead will be an automatic upgrade or an additional cost, and whether or not that Bonehead can take wargear of any kind. If the answer to the latter question is "yes, including power weapons", then the unit might actually be fairly priced.
8270
Post by: Biophysic
I'm more excited for this codex than I've been about anything else in 40k since I began playing 10 years ago. It all comes down to the troops. I got into Guard because I like the idea of regular guys. I've used tanks, Sentinels, and Stormtroopers more and less over the years, but my interest in the army comes from the troops. This interest has at times been frustrating, because I'll build an army, but the Troops are often boring to play with and largely ineffective if not simply stationary and shooting.
Enter 5th ed Guard codex and associated rumors. Troops get cheaper, get grenades (now I don't have to sigh and say, "no, I didn't actually pay for grenades, they're just there to look cool"), get some extra options (combining into one unit), and get orders. I get more troops, get more powerful troops, and get some cool rules that play off their organizational background.
Sounds like a win for me, sorry for you guys who really just needed better rules for Stormtroopers and Ogryns, but I can't wait.
Secondarily, a thought on combining squads into one platoon unit:
I think this might have more tactical usefulness beyond kill-point missions.
1.) Weight of fire: 2 or 3 squads firing together will force a lot of saves against heavy/special weapon troopers and sergeants. A single squad would probably not ever force that save.
2.) Assault/Objective grabbing (this is assuming that Commissars are priced reasonably and can reliably prevent large squad from running from combat): If the officer and/or Commissar can get a power weapon/fist, and isn't an independent character, we'll be able to have 2 guys with real killing power cushioned by 20 or so other bodies. This isn't going to win against any dedicated assault troops, but it will give you a squad that can absorb some assaults from weakened enemy units and still hold an objective.
3.) Weapon protection: The special and heavy weapons on the squads will have extra bodies between them and the enemy's ill intents.
1478
Post by: warboss
Agamemnon2 wrote:CommissarKhaine wrote:we don't knwo exact rules (hell even points! ) for storm troops and ogryns...
We know the points costs for STs and Ogryns, 16 and 35, respectively. These are as solid as rumors go, nobody is attempting to contradict them. The only thing we don't know about Ogryns is whether or not the Bonehead will be an automatic upgrade or an additional cost, and whether or not that Bonehead can take wargear of any kind. If the answer to the latter question is "yes, including power weapons", then the unit might actually be fairly priced.
b
there was a rumor (i think the same one that said they were 35pts) that said the unit costs 115 for a bonehead and 2 ogryn, with additional ogryn at 35pts each. although i'd love to be wrong, i'm guessing the bonehead won't get any weapon upgrades. gw seems to be taking a measured approach to this codex, "giving" us cool things but at the cost of points. ogryns weren't worth taking at 25; with their rumored upgrades they'd be definitely worth taking at 25. at 35pts, it's a judgement call. same thing with the stormtroopers.
168
Post by: foil7102
Sorry, but three heavy bolters stock is the way to go on the Russ in this Dex. Your question, Death is whats better, 6 russ's with sponsons or 7 with out. The real question is whats better? 12 heavy bolters, or one Russ. I know what I would pick, 36 str 5 shots for the win.
168
Post by: foil7102
I also love the way the hydra looks, and am excited about it. 75 points is not too bad assuming 4 shots twin linked. Surely it must be. a stock chimera is 55 with a heavy bolter and mult-laser. 20 points for two twin linked auto-cannons is about right.
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
foil7102 wrote:I also love the way the hydra looks, and am excited about it. 75 points is not too bad assuming 4 shots twin linked. Surely it must be. a stock chimera is 55 with a heavy bolter and mult-laser. 20 points for two twin linked auto-cannons is about right.
It'll be good for light vehicle work, but I was running the numbers for it against Meqs and it's pretty sad, actually - less than 1 (~0.83) Meq if it's 4 shots TL'd and just over 1 (~1.11) Meq if it's 4x Heavy 2. It's still a pretty model and 75 points is a nice price tag. Seems to me that whether you take it or not is really dependent on how many skimmers you see in your metagame. (And if the excitement over Valks is any indication, we may be seeing a lot more of them.)
9765
Post by: Illeix
You know, I've got this plan.
Since my list does not change much (as far as rumors go), besides a 63 pt demo charge, if the new 'dex ends up as terrible as speculated when I have a printed copy in my hands. I'll simply ask each opponent; "Mind if I use the old Codex?" and break out the new one in the event that I am going to a tournie, where it would be required.
And if it doesn't suck, well, rainbows and sunshine for the guard...
168
Post by: foil7102
My new guard army
6 basic Russ tanks with heavy bolter sponsons = 1020
6 sqauds of grunts = 300
Heavy and specials for the grunts = 150
Command and toys = 380
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
Sounds solid!
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
@foil - What are your thoughts on the new artillery?
5344
Post by: Shep
foil7102 wrote:My new guard army
6 basic Russ tanks with heavy bolter sponsons = 1020
6 sqauds of grunts = 300
Heavy and specials for the grunts = 150
Command and toys = 380
pretty damn similar to mine, now that we've seen the points costs.
If I'm understanding lumbering behemoth correctly, then I think I will like standard leman russes with lascannons too. They can be much more mobile and with a battle cannon and a lascannon they can take on tanks pretty respectably.
If trip-heavy bolters can move and fire all three and the battle cannon I will retract my statement. But lumbering behemoth looks to me lik eit makes the turret weapon defensive, so no moving and firing more than one extra weapon.
Also, i think that 380 points of toys could be used to buy a manticore.
3x basilisks is pretty interesting too in my book. For 375 you get a unit that can hurt all types of vehicles, and does a fantastic job at killing infantry too. It can be deployed behind a squadron of 3 russes when facing shooty armies, and it can screen 3 russes against assaulty armies.
But yeah, your composition is looking to be where the power lies in the guard list. My friend hasn't quite finished gluing together his nob biker units. He better hurry up, he looks to have about 5 more weeks to play it.
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Post by: foil7102
As far as the arty goes I think all of it is overpriced by a large margin considering what you get. I don't know the specifics on the griffin. If it ignores cover that its a steal. If not, well I dont think I would take it. Manticores look cool for fun games, and death strikes look nifty for Apoc.
Personally as far as lascannon's go on Russ's I guess I am old scool, tanks kill infantry, infantry kill tanks. The 6 russ's put out 6 pie plates, and 54 heavy bolter shots a turn. (ork meat platters anyone?) That is all you need for hordes or power armor. My guys will be packing mostly lascanons and meltas depending on inliftration, unit placement, costs, ect. With a few auto canons thrown in.
168
Post by: foil7102
Basic tactics is that the only way to deal with 6 av14 hulls in cover is in hand to hand, or melta range. Infantry is there to screen the tanks and pop armor or transports that get to froggy. If they want to duel at range Great! The only thing that would worry me would be max broadsides, with max hammerheads.
4008
Post by: kadun
http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/ has the IG Retailer Brief posted. Appears the official wording for Lumbering Behemoth is just turret weapon in addition to what you can normally fire. So no triple Heavy Bolters for the Russes unless you plan to keep them still.
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Post by: aka_mythos
warboss wrote:there was a rumor (i think the same one that said they were 35pts) that said the unit costs 115 for a bonehead and 2 ogryn, with additional ogryn at 35pts each. although i'd love to be wrong, i'm guessing the bonehead won't get any weapon upgrades. gw seems to be taking a measured approach to this codex, "giving" us cool things but at the cost of points. ogryns weren't worth taking at 25; with their rumored upgrades they'd be definitely worth taking at 25. at 35pts, it's a judgement call. same thing with the stormtroopers.
Exactly, its all about how you use them. This sort of thing I think is a symptom of the cost being relatively balanced. We just have to wait and see what the complete package on all of these are.
Death By Monkeys wrote:foil7102 wrote:I also love the way the hydra looks, and am excited about it. 75 points is not too bad assuming 4 shots twin linked. Surely it must be. a stock chimera is 55 with a heavy bolter and mult-laser. 20 points for two twin linked auto-cannons is about right.
It'll be good for light vehicle work, but I was running the numbers for it against Meqs and it's pretty sad, actually - less than 1 (~0.83) Meq if it's 4 shots TL'd and just over 1 (~1.11) Meq if it's 4x Heavy 2. It's still a pretty model and 75 points is a nice price tag. Seems to me that whether you take it or not is really dependent on how many skimmers you see in your metagame. (And if the excitement over Valks is any indication, we may be seeing a lot more of them.)
Rumor at Warseer is that the Hydra is 2x Twin-linked Hydra Autocannons. This seems to be a fairly consistent report on the rules. So I think anyones dreams of 4 autocannons are out.
I think I'll do up mine in more of a Chimerax looking way, with the gun mounted where the Chimera turret normally goes, instead of at the rear. *Contemplation*
foil7102 wrote:As far as the arty goes I think all of it is overpriced by a large margin considering what you get. I don't know the specifics on the griffin. If it ignores cover that its a steal. If not, well I dont think I would take it. Manticores look cool for fun games, and death strikes look nifty for Apoc.
The rumor I've been hearing is that the colossus is an upgraded griffon mortar and that is how you gain the whole ignore cover thing.
My general feeling is that GW expects you to only take one of the special artillery pieces or leman russ variants and fill in the other two squadron places with basic vehicles. That they've included the option of taking more but have priced to dissuade you from doing so. It will take some trying out new units to see if they're worth while... if not in a couple months we'll only see Infantry horde armies.
9655
Post by: barlio
I'm excited about the codex. I've put my guard on hold till the book comes out and when it does that will be probably one of two projects for my entire summer break. I've wondered how much of the criticism has been from non-guard players? Oh well if so. I know i will be greatly pleased.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
warboss wrote:there was a rumor (i think the same one that said they were 35pts) that said the unit costs 115 for a bonehead and 2 ogryn, with additional ogryn at 35pts each. although i'd love to be wrong, i'm guessing the bonehead won't get any weapon upgrades. gw seems to be taking a measured approach to this codex, "giving" us cool things but at the cost of points. ogryns weren't worth taking at 25; with their rumored upgrades they'd be definitely worth taking at 25. at 35pts, it's a judgement call. same thing with the stormtroopers.
I'd be okay with the first part. It'd mean that the cost of a five-Ogryn squad with a Bonehead would go from 135 to 175 points. Realistically, as I used to field 6-8 Ogryns under the old list, I'd likely use 5-6 under the new one, possibly with a Commissar or some other Leadership-booster (like putting an Enginseer in there for the Ld8 and servo-arm hits)
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
aka_mythos wrote:I think I'll do up mine in more of a Chimerax looking way, with the gun mounted where the Chimera turret normally goes, instead of at the rear. *Contemplation*
I was never a big fan of the Chimerax/Chimedon look - hell, I'm not a fan of the turret-forward look of the existing Chimera - I'd rather mount it toward the back. But I know there are a lot of folks like you who were fans, so I can see more of those being converted in the near future.
aka_mythos wrote:My general feeling is that GW expects you to only take one of the special artillery pieces or leman russ variants and fill in the other two squadron places with basic vehicles. That they've included the option of taking more but have priced to dissuade you from doing so. It will take some trying out new units to see if they're worth while... if not in a couple months we'll only see Infantry horde armies.
That's an interesting take. Depending on what the "Squadron Leader" gets you for 50 points it could make this (expensive), but even more useful if a BS increase is in order. I mean - where do you want your BS4? On a bog-standard LRBT? Or on the specialized Russ that you want to make sure hits its target?
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Post by: ShumaGorath
I think what GW is doing with this codex is fairly obvious and that is to place emphasis on the most common unit in the IG army, platoons. Infantry are clearly at the center of this codex. With in the IG, these point costs do make sense.
Nah, if I did these rules would be a hell of a lot better. And more balanced.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Vladsimpaler wrote:I don't think that I can accurately display my feelings for this codex without getting banned.
This entire codex suffers from Sternguard Syndrome. What's next? 100 point Junior Officers? Screw you, Robin Cruddace.
I was excited for this codex until point costs came out. This codex is going to suck.
I went from wanting to buy Ogryns, Stormtroopers, and Valkyries to just the IG Codex itself and the Advisors.
Well... I'm disappointed, but not to that point.
IMO, C: IG is being like C: SM, with a decent Troops choice, a couple support entries, and nothing else really playable.
- I was planning on fielding Ogryns, but at 35+ pts each, that ain't happening.
- I was even planning on Stormtroopers, but at 16+ pts each, that ain't happening.
- I'm on the fence for Sentinels, and they'll probably still move forward, since they got a little price cut.
- I'm still probably going with Valks, because the model is just damn cool and "worth" $50.
But where are the splash / Apoc sets for Valks & Sentinels?!? This is pissing me off.
752
Post by: Polonius
Have they done splash releases for anythign since the Eldar Warwalkers? Even the Apocolypse boxes were mostly older kits.
Why give a discount on Valks, when everybody is still going to buy them at full price?
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
focusedfire wrote:I'll buy your storm troopers, chimeras, &LRBT ....negotiations start at .10 cents on the dollar
Oh, please. A tenth of a penny per dollar?
Hell, I'll pay tenfold what you offer: a whole penny per dollar and just resell everything at 10 cents on the dollar.
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Post by: Janthkin
Polonius wrote:Why give a discount on Valks, when everybody is still going to buy them at full price?
I'd expect a splash box of Valks around Planetstrike. Until then, my Guardsmen will be land-locked.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
ShumaGorath wrote:
I think what GW is doing with this codex is fairly obvious and that is to place emphasis on the most common unit in the IG army, platoons. Infantry are clearly at the center of this codex. With in the IG, these point costs do make sense.
Nah, if I did these rules would be a hell of a lot better. And more balanced.
Just making it "better" takes little consideration as to how it impacts other armies. I think the Codex on the whole looks pretty balanced, while individual units are not. Ultimately we need to wait to really know all the capabilities of these units.
I'd recommend a new thread in the proposed rules section, I'm always open to see how people would try to "fix" or "balance" things.
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Post by: Shep
foil7102 wrote:As far as the arty goes I think all of it is overpriced by a large margin considering what you get. I don't know the specifics on the griffin. If it ignores cover that its a steal. If not, well I dont think I would take it. Manticores look cool for fun games, and death strikes look nifty for Apoc.
Personally as far as lascannon's go on Russ's I guess I am old scool, tanks kill infantry, infantry kill tanks. The 6 russ's put out 6 pie plates, and 54 heavy bolter shots a turn. (ork meat platters anyone?) That is all you need for hordes or power armor. My guys will be packing mostly lascanons and meltas depending on inliftration, unit placement, costs, ect. With a few auto canons thrown in.
I think manticores are a bit more respectable than fun games. I didn't like lootas when the ork rumors were coming out, but once you realize that even if you roll a one every time its still decent, and considering that 66% of the time you are getting at least double the number of shots, then it becomes very good. D3 strength 10 ordnance rips up tanks and infantry, and if i have already committed to 3 russes, then I've got my LOS blocking already pre-packaged. If people are seeing my missiles over and through my russes, then i'll buy a net for the manticore.
I might agree with you on the russ lascannons once I've seen all the details for the infantry squads. If I have enough points/orders/ KP to spare to make infantry mounted tank kill viable, then i might go your way. if infantry platoons run more efficiently as infantry killers and short range tank killers, then I'm still going to put battle cannons on enemy armor. Another option for me would be to designate some russes as movers and some as pillboxes, the movers can just take the single HB, the pillboxes would get a rack of them.
I think you and I are discussing leaves at this point, not the trees and not the forest. I think I might try and get someone to play against 6 russes 1 other heavy and troops this weekend. I'll even forgo the new order system and use 3rd edition infantry platoons. I just want to see what happens to people's strategy under that kind of bombardment.
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Post by: Korcheski
aka_mythos wrote:
Rumor at Warseer is that the Hydra is 2x Twin-linked Hydra Autocannons. This seems to be a fairly consistent report on the rules. So I think anyones dreams of 4 autocannons are out.
Are we sure people are just basing this off what Forgeworld had them listed as?
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Post by: Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar
Korcheski wrote:aka_mythos wrote:Rumor at Warseer is that the Hydra is 2x Twin-linked Hydra Autocannons. This seems to be a fairly consistent report on the rules. So I think anyones dreams of 4 autocannons are out.
Are we sure people are just basing this off what Forgeworld had them listed as?
The 2x Twin-linked was from the new Codex. Col.Gravis doublechecked it I believe.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
aka_mythos wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:
I think what GW is doing with this codex is fairly obvious and that is to place emphasis on the most common unit in the IG army, platoons. Infantry are clearly at the center of this codex. With in the IG, these point costs do make sense.
Nah, if I did these rules would be a hell of a lot better. And more balanced.
Just making it "better" takes little consideration as to how it impacts other armies. I think the Codex on the whole looks pretty balanced, while individual units are not. Ultimately we need to wait to really know all the capabilities of these units.
I'd recommend a new thread in the proposed rules section, I'm always open to see how people would try to "fix" or "balance" things.
Sorry, in my rush I quoted the wrong post. I was responding to a poster that said he bet I worked for GW from the last version of this thread. I honestly have no idea how I ended up quoting that paragraph. I apologize.
As for rebalancing the codex I would be happy too. I already have fixes for the space marine, tyranid, and ork codexes half written and mostly in mind. I want to see the codex first though.
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Post by: Dave47
Is anyone else having flashbacks to the 2003 release of the current IG Codex back There was a ton of excitement and optimism based on lots of rumors of awesome new doctrines and great new units, as well as buffs to existing marginalized units. ("We've fixed Ogryns, Commissars and Stormtroopers! We promise!")
Then the other details emerged, and people got annoyed. Rumors emerged from people flipping through preview Codecies, and as soon as they started reporting point costs, a lot of people realized that the doctrines were (by-and-large) garbage. People came to similar realizations about the new units, and a lot of the "improvements" to marginalized units didn't go far enough to make them worth taking. Plus, a lot of things got slightly more expensive ( LCs, assault weapons, PHQs) and some popular units were removed / nerfed. So there was a lot of preemptive rage among IG players. My initial gut feeling was that IG actuall got slightly weaker compared to the (admittedly short-term) previous status quo of the old IG Codex benefiting from ID and SS from Codex: EOT.
Then we all realized how powerful Drop Troopers was, and laughed on into the night.
I'm not expecting that we're going to get Nob Bikers or anything, but it's entirely possible that we're missing something that's going to make a huge difference in how this army plays.
But until we find it, the smart money says Stormtroopers and Ogryns won't be worth taking.
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Post by: aka_mythos
Dave47 wrote:
But until we find it, the smart money says Stormtroopers and Ogryns won't be worth taking.
I think they'll be worth taking, just not "en masse." They strike me as being more niche units where before they were treated much more like uber front line units. Unfortunately the latter is what most people were hoping and expecting. Ogryn are your counter assault unit. Stormtroopers have 3 separate niche distinguished by their "mission" but generally function as your anti-heavy infantry, infantry unit.
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Post by: ph34r
There is a silver lining to the new codex...
At first I thought that I would have to purchase 2-3 more infantry boxes, a command squad, a few commissars, the advisor box, some psykers, a leman russ and a forgeworld turret for it, 3 sentinels, 3 boxes of vostroyans for vets and 3 chimeras to go along with them, and to top it all off some servitors for my enginseers. With the initial rumored costs for everything, I could have fit almost all this in my army list with minimal shuffling.
Now, however, I do not even have points room for the models in the army I use now. This means that I will not be spending any money, and if the IG codex is bad enough I might not even buy that!
Thanks, GW!
Of course I know you can always surprise me at the last minute and have all these terrible rumors turn out to be false, but that sure didn't happen for my Iron Warriors!
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Post by: Alpharius
I think we've gone beyond the "they're just rumors" stage.
What we're missing now is the "other stuff" that might make some of what we've already learned appear better/worse...
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Tell me about it. There's no real pressing need to redo any army list entries or buy any of the new boxes. The Command squad is full of nice bitz, but nothing that I actually need. Same with the Valkyrie. There appears to be nothing in the Codex that actually benefits from being dropped off one while at the same time maintains at least the semblance of points-efficiency.
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Post by: aka_mythos
Agamemnon2 wrote:Tell me about it. There's no real pressing need to redo any army list entries or buy any of the new boxes. The Command squad is full of nice bitz, but nothing that I actually need. Same with the Valkyrie. There appears to be nothing in the Codex that actually benefits from being dropped off one while at the same time maintains at least the semblance of points-efficiency.
Woah... quiet down. I think this is the first instance of anything supporting Shuma's idea that GW doesn't do this just to sell minis.
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Post by: foil7102
Shep wrote:foil7102 wrote:As far as the arty goes I think all of it is overpriced by a large margin considering what you get. I don't know the specifics on the griffin. If it ignores cover that its a steal. If not, well I dont think I would take it. Manticores look cool for fun games, and death strikes look nifty for Apoc.
Personally as far as lascannon's go on Russ's I guess I am old scool, tanks kill infantry, infantry kill tanks. The 6 russ's put out 6 pie plates, and 54 heavy bolter shots a turn. (ork meat platters anyone?) That is all you need for hordes or power armor. My guys will be packing mostly lascanons and meltas depending on inliftration, unit placement, costs, ect. With a few auto canons thrown in.
I think manticores are a bit more respectable than fun games. I didn't like lootas when the ork rumors were coming out, but once you realize that even if you roll a one every time its still decent, and considering that 66% of the time you are getting at least double the number of shots, then it becomes very good. D3 strength 10 ordnance rips up tanks and infantry, and if i have already committed to 3 russes, then I've got my LOS blocking already pre-packaged. If people are seeing my missiles over and through my russes, then i'll buy a net for the manticore.
I might agree with you on the russ lascannons once I've seen all the details for the infantry squads. If I have enough points/orders/ KP to spare to make infantry mounted tank kill viable, then i might go your way. if infantry platoons run more efficiently as infantry killers and short range tank killers, then I'm still going to put battle cannons on enemy armor. Another option for me would be to designate some russes as movers and some as pillboxes, the movers can just take the single HB, the pillboxes would get a rack of them.
I think you and I are discussing leaves at this point, not the trees and not the forest. I think I might try and get someone to play against 6 russes 1 other heavy and troops this weekend. I'll even forgo the new order system and use 3rd edition infantry platoons. I just want to see what happens to people's strategy under that kind of bombardment.
Yeah, but I am worried about how the rules work on the manticore. If it is 4 d3 shots, that I am cool with it. However if it is d3 shots, and once you expend 4 rockets you are done.... Well then I am not so sold, especially as you can only max 3 of them.
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Post by: Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar
foil7102 wrote:Yeah, but I am worried about how the rules work on the manticore. If it is 4 d3 shots, that I am cool with it. However if it is d3 shots, and once you expend 4 rockets you are done.... Well then I am not so sold, especially as you can only max 3 of them.
You get 4 rockets per Manticore for the game and each rocket lays down D3 Ordnance templates if that makes it any clearer. 
11729
Post by: Gestalt
What is this sneak peak that has been mentioned being the 21st?
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Post by: foil7102
Ah! well now..... Its not like my tanks live past turn 4 now.... That is well, makes things a little more interesting.
No wonder you can not squadron them, a possible 27 str 10 templates per turn. That would be one heck of an Alpha strike. As they are now, well mixing one in would be cool. Not sure if I would be willing to give up a heavy support slot though.
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Post by: Shep
ph34r wrote:There is a silver lining to the new codex...
At first I thought that I would have to purchase 2-3 more infantry boxes, a command squad, a few commissars, the advisor box, some psykers, a leman russ and a forgeworld turret for it, 3 sentinels, 3 boxes of vostroyans for vets and 3 chimeras to go along with them, and to top it all off some servitors for my enginseers. With the initial rumored costs for everything, I could have fit almost all this in my army list with minimal shuffling.
Now, however, I do not even have points room for the models in the army I use now. This means that I will not be spending any money, and if the IG codex is bad enough I might not even buy that!
Thanks, GW!
Of course I know you can always surprise me at the last minute and have all these terrible rumors turn out to be false, but that sure didn't happen for my Iron Warriors!
So you aren't interested in adding more than 3 leman russes to your army? Or any valkyries? Or any of the new artillery pieces? New ratlings? New psyker? Armor 12 sentinels? Was GW going to be able to please you no matter what it did? I'm an apocalypse fanboy, so I already have a tank company and 3 bassies painted. But I've already been buying manticores, executioners, and chimeras, and will be buying the advisors, and a bunch of sentinels for starters, and will probably go on a run where i buy an obscene number of valks and stormtroopers, ogryns ratlings, psykers and tech-people once I've got my tourney list built and painted. Looks like I'll be spending enough for the both of us.
As far as I can tell, Robin has removed the vast majority of obstacles that stood in my guard armies way. My inability to tangle with top tier lists has evaporated. I've got the firepower I need, coupled with reasonable transports to spoil assaults, and enough of a KP fix to tune something competitive for this years GT circuit. I'm happy. When I'm not playing tourney style, I have tons of fun toys and combos to play with (many of them brand new).
aka_mythos wrote:
I think they'll be worth taking, just not "en masse." They strike me as being more niche units where before they were treated much more like uber front line units. Unfortunately the latter is what most people were hoping and expecting. Ogryn are your counter assault unit. Stormtroopers have 3 separate niche distinguished by their "mission" but generally function as your anti-heavy infantry, infantry unit.
This quote is entirely too rational for this thread.
foil7102 wrote:Yeah, but I am worried about how the rules work on the manticore. If it is 4 d3 shots, that I am cool with it. However if it is d3 shots, and once you expend 4 rockets you are done.... Well then I am not so sold, especially as you can only max 3 of them.
Didn't think of that possibility. If thats true, then i wonder if forgeworld takes returns
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Shep wrote:So you aren't interested in adding more than 3 leman russes to your army? Or any valkyries? Or any of the new artillery pieces? New ratlings? New psyker? Armor 12 sentinels? Was GW going to be able to please you no matter what it did?
Well, I for one was, but with the way the points costs are shaping up, my 1,000 point army is turning into a 1,250 point army with the simple addition of a commissar or two. I might pick up one tank to get me to 1,500, but beyond that, there's just no room in the list, nor flexibility enough to fit in as many toys as I want to.
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Post by: Quintinus
ph34r wrote:There is a silver lining to the new codex...
At first I thought that I would have to purchase 2-3 more infantry boxes, a command squad, a few commissars, the advisor box, some psykers, a leman russ and a forgeworld turret for it, 3 sentinels, 3 boxes of vostroyans for vets and 3 chimeras to go along with them, and to top it all off some servitors for my enginseers. With the initial rumored costs for everything, I could have fit almost all this in my army list with minimal shuffling.
Now, however, I do not even have points room for the models in the army I use now. This means that I will not be spending any money, and if the IG codex is bad enough I might not even buy that!
Thanks, GW!
Join the club, my good friend. This codex is going to be absolutely terrible. Hmm, 350 points for a squad of 10 Ogryns. Our codex writer must have several brain tumors. Idiot.
P.S. Could we have a list of all the point costs that have been rumored?
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Post by: Augustus
Shep wrote:So you aren't interested in adding more than 3 leman russes to your army? Or any valkyries? Or any of the new artillery pieces? New ratlings? New psyker? Armor 12 sentinels? Was GW going to be able to please you no matter what it did?
For modeling reasons sure, for play, not very impresssed yet. All the new toys don't really fix the IGs weaknesses....
Shep wrote:As far as I can tell, Robin has removed the vast majority of obstacles that stood in my guard armies way. My inability to tangle with top tier lists has evaporated.
Really? Weaknesses like impotency in close combat, poor ability to take objectives, low staying power, signifcant morale issues all around and tank vulnerability to assault, complete KP absurdity?
I admire your zeal sir, but even with all these potentially confirmed new units and abilities I'm not convinced the IG will be any better at all. I predict they still will be swept off the field in many games, remain challenged at taking ground, get embarassed in almost every assault and generally remain at the bottom of the pile.
Also for the record on models:
Where are the great coat plastics?
Where are the roughrider models?
Cadians and Catachans, again?
Imperial Hobbits make me want to completely quit the army...
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Post by: aka_mythos
I think one issue I'm seeing with peoples reactions is that they want it all. Its not good enough that you can take a massive amount of infantry with new abilities; its not enough that we can choose to take 9 Leman Russes; its not enough we have valkyries... some people want it all and want it for cheap enough to all fit in one 2000 pt army. Some one said this before, this army is all about synergy, I hate that word but there it is. So there are things not to your liking. Am I going to have to redo my Grenadiers and do something with them, of course, but that's part of the game. Even if this codex isn't the greatest, it is a flavorful improvement.
Shep wrote:aka_mythos wrote:
I think they'll be worth taking, just not "en masse." They strike me as being more niche units where before they were treated much more like uber front line units. Unfortunately the latter is what most people were hoping and expecting. Ogryn are your counter assault unit. Stormtroopers have 3 separate niche distinguished by their "mission" but generally function as your anti-heavy infantry, infantry unit.
This quote is entirely too rational for this thread.
Thanks? I think...
Augustus wrote:Really? Weaknesses like impotency in close combat, poor ability to take objectives, low staying power, signifcant morale issues all around and tank vulnerability to assault, complete KP absurdity?
Its talk like this that makes all armies end up as MEQs. Close combat, is suppose to be a general weakenss, but the issue has been mitigated by improvements to Ogryn and Roughriders. Well now we can take many chimeras and valkyries to carry troops to seize objectives, we have a troop choice with an optional 4+ armor save, we have cheaper commissars to mitigate morale in addition to a rally order.
Every armies' tank has a vulnerability to assault. Its the core rules.
We have the most flexibility as far as KP go. We can go 50 men as one KP to 5 squads each a kill point and everywhere in between. That's a level of flexibility no other army really has.
Weaknesses and strengths are what define an army. You want all the strengths and none of the weaknesses. These are the IG's weaknesses, they can be minimized or mitigated but not removed.
Augustus wrote:
Also for the record on models:
Where are the great coat plastics?
Where are the roughrider models?
Cadians and Catachans, again?
Imperial Hobbits make me want to completely quit the army...
Great coats have been denied adamantly.
Rough riders are in Wave 2.
Cadians and Catachans aren't being changed just added to. Least effort to reach largest yield.
Ratlings are one of the few things that keeps the IG from being just a futuristic analogue for a modern military. Ratlings are 40k, as much as eldar (space elves), orks(space orc), space marines (space knights), or necron (space undead). You have to ask yourself why you care at all about a game that seems to fly in the face of your concept of what it is.
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Post by: Augustus
aka_mythos wrote:I think one issue I'm seeing with peoples reactions is that they want it all... Even if this codex isn't the greatest, it is a flavorful improvement.
OK, I would agree with that.
5297
Post by: volair
The new Imperial Guard will obviously be a powerful army, but sadly some options are clearly better than others, so the internal balance of the codex is flawed. Vendetta's are clearly the superior option for anti-tank. 4-6 of them will be absolute staples in every Imperial Guard army. The basic infantry squads within platoons are clearly the best infantry in the codex, being vastly more efficient than both veterans and storm troopers. In fact, the basic 5 point guardsmen with a lasgun, when given the front rank, second rank fire order, is the most efficient anti-infantry firepower in the entire codex, so you will see people taking 2-3 units of 30 plain guardsmen (3 units merged make 30) with no special weapons (why give them special weapons when you can spend those points on more vendettas?). Some of the Leman Russ variants may be used, but I expect the 6 vendetta, 120 plain guardsmen army to be very very powerful.
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Post by: Gestalt
I dont think guard are still at the bottom of the pile, but they still will lose to 'power lists' worse than others, so about middle of the pack. The more advanced tactic we wont know until we see the book itself. (cmon internet)
Remaining things to confirm:
1. Hvy weapon squads, 6 or 10? People have said both. If its 6 there is no one to take a vox for orders.
2. Is Lumbering fire Turret and all weapons or Turret and then as normal (1 if move, all if stationary)
3. What squads can merge, all in a platoon, only infantry squads, command squads?
4. What does the Tank character do thats worth 50 points? (BS4 isnt worth that)
5. Are upgrades like improves comms, regimental standard, honorifica still around?
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Post by: focusedfire
Augustus wrote:Shep wrote:So you aren't interested in adding more than 3 leman russes to your army? Or any valkyries? Or any of the new artillery pieces? New ratlings? New psyker? Armor 12 sentinels? Was GW going to be able to please you no matter what it did?
For modeling reasons sure, for play, not very impresssed yet. All the new toys don't really fix the IGs weaknesses....
Shep wrote:As far as I can tell, Robin has removed the vast majority of obstacles that stood in my guard armies way. My inability to tangle with top tier lists has evaporated.
Really? Weaknesses like impotency in close combat, poor ability to take objectives, low staying power, signifcant morale issues all around and tank vulnerability to assault, complete KP absurdity?
I admire your zeal sir, but even with all these potentially confirmed new units and abilities I'm not convinced the IG will be any better at all. I predict they still will be swept off the field in many games, remain challenged at taking ground, get embarassed in almost every assault and generally remain at the bottom of the pile.
From what you say the problem is that the IG could still lose, will actually have to work in order to take ground, and will be a shhooty tank army that can't beat dedicated assault armies in HtH.
So, the codex will be bad because its not an auto-win.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Gestalt wrote:1. Hvy weapon squads, 6 or 10? People have said both. If its 6 there is no one to take a vox for orders.
I think the more accurate question might be 3 models(as Weapon teams are 2W models now, not 2 models) or 7(3 HW Teams plus 4 guardsmen for "10" men)?
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
And also, HW squads can stil get orders, but they just need to be clumped around the command squad. 6" from platoon command or 12" from company command.
5344
Post by: Shep
Augustus wrote:Weaknesses like impotency in close combat
Charge my 50 point squad, win, get rapid fired, charge my 50 point squad, win get rapid fired.
Augustus wrote:poor ability to take objectives
I don't really see that. I tend to block far away objectives and score the close ones. use russes/hellhounds/valkyries to block. Use 55 point chimeras to score.
Augustus wrote:low staying power
Huh? 2+ cover save not good enough for you? Stubborn, possibly with a re-roll? effective transports to wall off or blunt CC? 54 heavy bolters and 6x battle cannons in a standard army to dissuade assaulters?
Augustus wrote:signifcant morale issues
Small cheap units running off the board isn't my concern, my army will be around 75% vehicles. They're fearless right?
Augustus wrote:all around and tank vulnerability to assault
Unless you screen your tanks with 50 point units of guardsmen. They are tall enough to see over them. You get to shoot, then they get to charge a screen, then you get to shoot, then they get to charge the next screen.
Augustus wrote:complete KP absurdity?
Nope, thats fixed. If anyone tries to claim a KP disadvantage after the officers lose IC status and your platoons can be combined into one or two units, they'll just be a bad carpenter blaming their tools. In KP missions, you don't have to move, and once you eliminate your opponents anti-tank, you can scratch a significant number of units off of your KP list. I can't wait to roll annihilation with my new IG list.
Augustus wrote:I admire your zeal sir, but even with all these potentially confirmed new units and abilities I'm not convinced the IG will be any better at all. I predict they still will be swept off the field in many games, remain challenged at taking ground, get embarassed in almost every assault and generally remain at the bottom of the pile.
Thanks, I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm happy to get embarassed in each and every assault. It just lets me shoot more. Swept off the field? How are my 7 tanks that are screened by infantry going to be "swept off the field"? Castling up on an objective in capture and control and just raining ordnance down on troop choices will probably be one of the easiest ways to win a mission, and vehicle objective blocking from one of our two fast vehicles choices (that can be taken in squads of 3) I'm not afraid of objectives.
Gotta go, more later
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Post by: Agamemnon2
aka_mythos wrote:I think one issue I'm seeing with peoples reactions is that they want it all. Its not good enough that you can take a massive amount of infantry with new abilities; its not enough that we can choose to take 9 Leman Russes; its not enough we have valkyries... some people want it all and want it for cheap enough to all fit in one 2000 pt army. Some one said this before, this army is all about synergy, I hate that word but there it is. So there are things not to your liking. Am I going to have to redo my Grenadiers and do something with them, of course, but that's part of the game. Even if this codex isn't the greatest, it is a flavorful improvement.
I do not think that lowering the points cost of an infantry squad from 60 to 50pts plus upgrades is really the massive improvement you're calling it, nor am I convinced that the army's problems can be solved by throwing more bodies at it. For what it's worth, I never wanted to be able to field nine Leman Russes, I think the idea alone is absurd and unfeasible, and it takes well over 1500 points to even contemplate. I never wanted the Valkyrie, beautiful as it might be, because I do not feel a fast skimmer is an appropriate thing for IG to have.
What I wanted is simple. The Salamander, the Quad-Launcher, better mortars, maybe even off-table artillery support, a good solution to the Kill Points question, an end to the bickering about heavy weapon teams and a way to make Ogryns worth their points. These goals were met in various ways ranging from "almost" to "not at all".
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Post by: Augustus
@ shep, OK I see your points.
I played to many IG games in 5th, (as IG) where multiple asaults and inability to move and score has killed them to be easily convinced. I didn't undertsand the KP combine thing, that seems like a major improvement.
Here's to hoping you have it all right!
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Post by: focusedfire
As to the question of stormtrooper pricing. If the same model was available with the same stats and special rules in an Eldar army how much would that model cost. It'd be more than 16 pts.
I'm not saying that you'll be spamming them. Just that they may be like that one deep-striking fusion squad that always seems to show up in a Tau Meq list. Having that one unit is going to be very nifty.
IMHO,The Tanks are mostly going to be LRBT in 40K. I really believe that a lot of the other Tanks are designed or re-designed and intended for larger apoc games. It has never made much sense for a basilisk type artillery to be on a regular sized board.
As to weapon load-out on the LeMan Russes. I see a lot of hull mount lascannons,pintle storm bolters, but no sponsons. Also see a lot of command exterminators.
I think the FA tanks may show up but as a single squadron of 2 whatevers. I'm seeing a lot of possibility to actually field competitive theme armies. But all of this is guessing as I haven't seen the codex yet.
11729
Post by: Gestalt
Gestalt wrote:Remaining things to confirm:
1. Hvy weapon squads, 3 heavy weapon teams or 3 teams and 4 guard. If 3 teams they cant get a vox.
2. Is Lumbering fire Turret and all weapons or Turret and then as normal (1 if move, all if stationary)
3. What squads can merge, all in a platoon, only infantry squads, command squads?
4. What does the Tank character do thats worth 50 points? (BS4 isnt worth that)
5. Are upgrades like improves comms, regimental standard, honorifica still around?
And also, HW squads can stil get orders, but they just need to be clumped around the command squad. 6" from platoon command or 12" from company command.
This is the first I heard of a range on orders like this, and vox lets you reroll the test to take the order. Is this from the codex or rumor?
For Ogryns an allied WH Inquis(cheap) or Hero(ld9-10) with book of st lucius would be even better than a commissar who only has 1 wound. Though they are IC, keeping them within 6", in the chimera perhaps, would keep them around.
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Post by: Dexy
Don't forget also, Squads of tanks = 1 KP so 2x Leman Russ as 1 Heavy only gives up 1KP instead of 2
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Post by: ph34r
Shep wrote:So you aren't interested in adding more than 3 leman russes to your army? Or any valkyries? Or any of the new artillery pieces? New ratlings? New psyker? Armor 12 sentinels? Was GW going to be able to please you no matter what it did? I'm an apocalypse fanboy, so I already have a tank company and 3 bassies painted. But I've already been buying manticores, executioners, and chimeras, and will be buying the advisors, and a bunch of sentinels for starters, and will probably go on a run where i buy an obscene number of valks and stormtroopers, ogryns ratlings, psykers and tech-people once I've got my tourney list built and painted. Looks like I'll be spending enough for the both of us.
Well that's just great for you. I hear that you can even play lost and the damned in apocalypse, and Iron Warriors can have 4 heavy support choices and as many obliterators as they want! Oh, and imperial guard armies can take carnifexes and eldar can take sternguard. You have fun playing apocalypse, I will be over here playing Warhammer 40,000. If GW is able to make you happy by including a million different options in the new codex that are all so bad that they would only be played in apocalypse, then that's just fantastic. For you. I have to fit my army in 2000 points, and apparently I can't do that any more even without adding more units. So no, I AM interested in adding leman russes, and artillery, and psykers, and sentinels. Unfortunately GW does not want me to be able to have these in my army.
Shep wrote:As far as I can tell, Robin has removed the vast majority of obstacles that stood in my guard armies way. My inability to tangle with top tier lists has evaporated. I've got the firepower I need, coupled with reasonable transports to spoil assaults, and enough of a KP fix to tune something competitive for this years GT circuit. I'm happy. When I'm not playing tourney style, I have tons of fun toys and combos to play with (many of them brand new).
The thing is, I would love to use fun toys and combos. Unfortunately 16 point storm troopers that can't do anything except kill spess marehns just as well as marines kill them, at a greater cost, at close range, and not in close combat. And for an elite choice. That's not fun, it's just stupid.
Chimeras do look good. I would be very excited about them if I used them in my army. Unfortunately it goes against my theme pretty hard.
I can't wait to see how the IG KP "fix" works out, with our 50 man strong "solutions" being charged on turn 1/2 and tied up for the rest of the game by pretty much anything.
aka_mythos wrote:I think one issue I'm seeing with peoples reactions is that they want it all. Its not good enough that you can take a massive amount of infantry with new abilities; its not enough that we can choose to take 9 Leman Russes; its not enough we have valkyries... some people want it all and want it for cheap enough to all fit in one 2000 pt army. Some one said this before, this army is all about synergy, I hate that word but there it is. So there are things not to your liking. Am I going to have to redo my Grenadiers and do something with them, of course, but that's part of the game. Even if this codex isn't the greatest, it is a flavorful improvement.
I agree that this codex is a flavorful improvement. We are getting so many new cool options, it's almost overwhelming. If points were not an issue in 40k then I would be very happy indeed. Unfortunately many of these cool new units are just too bad to make it to the table, and some old units have been nerfed into the dirt (storm troopers, veterans, hellhounds).
I don't care if this codex is the greatest, I just don't want it to be the worst, and I certainly don't want it to be worse than the current codex, because as it is IG has enough problems.
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Post by: focusedfire
JohnHwangDD wrote:focusedfire wrote:I'll buy your storm troopers, chimeras, &LRBT ....negotiations start at .10 cents on the dollar
Oh, please. A tenth of a penny per dollar?
Hell, I'll pay tenfold what you offer: a whole penny per dollar and just resell everything at 10 cents on the dollar.
OK, ten cents on the dollar then. You stated the price and I accept your offer in written contract form.
Where are my Storm troopers and LRBTs? 
Same offer goes to you Ph34r. You seem to think its hopless. want to sell now?
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Post by: ph34r
focusedfire wrote:Same offer goes to you Ph34r. You seem to think its hopless. want to sell now?
If I sold every army that GW made non-existent or horrible... I would have zero armies.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
aka_mythos wrote:I think one issue I'm seeing with peoples reactions is that they want it all. Its not good enough that you can take a massive amount of infantry with new abilities; its not enough that we can choose to take 9 Leman Russes; its not enough we have valkyries... some people want it all and want it for cheap enough to all fit in one 2000 pt army.
Have you been reading this thread mythos? There are people who can't field their current army under the new points values, let alone any of the new stuff. It's not about 'wanting it all', it's about wanting something, but being unable to do it because the costs have gone up so much (or, enough that any savings from things going down is completely lost). Ogryns and Storm Troopers are a joke at those costs. Commissars are still overpriced. Most of the tanks are overpriced (especially the Vanq and Punisher). The sponson costs sound astronomical. Yes, at the end of the day we don't know anything for sure, but based on what we've been told, Guard have become a more expensive army if you want to field anything besides Infantry Squads. If we assume 170 per Storm Trooper Squad (160+mandatory Vet Sergeant), plus 30 for Plasma Guns (  ), and then basic Valk, you're looking at 300 points for a unit that takes up two slots, and is mostly T3 Sv4+ with a S3 gun. How is that at all worthwhile? And this is just absurd: aka_mythos wrote:As to the question of stormtrooper pricing. If the same model was available with the same stats and special rules in an Eldar army how much would that model cost. It'd be more than 16 pts.
If you took Marines and put them in Eldar, would they suddenly jump in cost? No. They're not suddenly more effective or better. They might be better than other choices in that Codex, but that doesn't mean their price should go up. They're still worth what they're worth. BS4 WS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8 Sv4+ model with a Strength 3 gun, Deep Strike and Infiltrate taking up an Elite Slot is 10 points per model. The AP3 is almost meaningless in a 5th Ed context and not the be-all/end-all and they lost 6" of range (making their targeters all the more useless). They're certainly not worth +6 points over their current cost. BYE
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Post by: Ozymandias
Vladsimpaler wrote:ph34r wrote:There is a silver lining to the new codex...
At first I thought that I would have to purchase 2-3 more infantry boxes, a command squad, a few commissars, the advisor box, some psykers, a leman russ and a forgeworld turret for it, 3 sentinels, 3 boxes of vostroyans for vets and 3 chimeras to go along with them, and to top it all off some servitors for my enginseers. With the initial rumored costs for everything, I could have fit almost all this in my army list with minimal shuffling.
Now, however, I do not even have points room for the models in the army I use now. This means that I will not be spending any money, and if the IG codex is bad enough I might not even buy that!
Thanks, GW!
Join the club, my good friend. This codex is going to be absolutely terrible. Hmm, 350 points for a squad of 10 Ogryns. Our codex writer must have several brain tumors. Idiot.
P.S. Could we have a list of all the point costs that have been rumored?
God I didn't think the bitching could get worse but thanks for proving me wrong. "Oh noes, Ogryns are expensive!!" Yeah cause they were so fething useful in the last codex as well. Jesus H. Christ you'd think GW gave you your dead hamster* for Christmas instead of a new IG codex with lots of new toys to play with.
As someone who had put their IG army on hold till the new codex I am ecstatic at the rumors. You mean I'll get to take lots of tanks, have cheaper troops, and not auto-lose KP missions? feth yeah! Plus I get a 12/12/10 Fast Skimmer for Contesting/Capturing objectives so I actually have some maneuverability.
You whiners need to step back, take a breathe, and stop bitching over "insert pet rule/unit here" not being exactly the way you wanted it. Seriously, get over yourselves.
*blatantly stolen from some British dude.
/rant
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
aka_mythos wrote:I think one issue I'm seeing with peoples reactions is that they want it all
this army is all about synergy,
I going to have to redo my Grenadiers
Close combat, is suppose to be a general weakenss, but the issue has been mitigated by improvements to Ogryn and Roughriders.
Well now we can take many chimeras and valkyries to carry troops to seize objectives,
we have a troop choice with an optional 4+ armor save,
I wanted cheaper (45-pt squad) Guard with more Platoon options (camo, Carapace, etc.), cheaper (20-pt) and survivable (T5) Ogryns, along with competitively-priced (45-pt) and armored (AV12/11/10) Chimeras and non-stupid (10-pt) Plasma. Didn't really happen, though the Infantry isn't horrible. IMO, it's like C: SM - strong Troops (Platoon v. Tacticals), decent support (static shooting / Scout Sentinels / Ordnance v. Sternguard / Transport), mediocre alternatives. I'm not. My Grenadiers are becoming ISTs. Ogryns went from 25 pts each to 35 pts each - a 30+% cost increase. For those kinds of points, I'd rather take GKTs or a DH with Eversor. Anything else, really, as I don't believe Ogryns are playable at all at their currently-rumored points costs. Chimeras aren't horrible, but they are somewhat overcosted. Valks are definitely overcosted, but at least they look cool. I don't think Guard are going to be as powerful as current Drop Troops builds. Also, Russ squadrons are kind of iffy - they'll have to dump all firepower at the same target. Not nearly as good as Basilisks which held cost.
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Post by: Neil
aka_mythos wrote:
As to the question of stormtrooper pricing. If the same model was available with the same stats and special rules in an Eldar army how much would that model cost. It'd be more than 16 pts.
Eldar get freaking Fire Dragons for 16 points each.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Man, I think I have seen more nerdrage (from myself included) with regard to this codex than with just about anything else GW has done in recent memory. (Well, maybe not as much as LatD...)
11
Post by: ph34r
Ozymandias wrote:God I didn't think the bitching could get worse but thanks for proving me wrong. "Oh noes, Ogryns are expensive!!" Yeah cause they were so fething useful in the last codex as well. Jesus H. Christ you'd think GW gave you your dead hamster* for Christmas instead of a new IG codex with lots of new toys to play with.
As someone who had put their IG army on hold till the new codex I am ecstatic at the rumors.
I don't care that ogryns are still bad. I care that my army as it is, which contains a wide variety of infantry guardsmen and leman russ tanks as support, cannot fit into 2000 points any more. Not even close. Sorry, but special orders which may or may not be good (rapid fire vs lasguns only for double shoot order, whether or not the AT order will give +1 in addition to reroll, etc) do not make up for 15% of my army not making it to the field any more.
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Post by: Polonius
well, the messed up thing is that certain parts of the IG codex have been pants for a decade. Ogryn, Storm troopers, and commissars have been bad to awful forever. Normally, GW would pull a pendulum and make them awesome, not arguably make them worse.
IG players don't ask for much: just a normal codex like everybody else, that can play and win games and has more than one half decent build.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
And your suggested alternative would be what DBM?
That we all happily suck at the teat of whatever GW puts out like a bunch of good little sycophants? Or perhaps people who are happy with the changes are allowed to express how much they love them, but those that aren't should stop right now because dissatisfaction is obviously just "nerdrage" and nothing legitimate.
Enough with the fething double standard.
People who like it can say they like it, and they're fine normal people, not sycophantic fanboys at all, but those that don't are branded whiners, neckbeards and people suffering from 'nerdrage'.
So, again, DBM, what would your suggested alternatives be?
I mean when myself, Aggy, DD and Shummy all come down on (roughly) the same side in a discussion, shouldn't that tell you something? All we need now is MIA GW sycophant Toreador to come in here claiming the end is nigh and we'll have a general Dakka consensus on the issue.
BYE
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
focusedfire wrote:As to the question of stormtrooper pricing. If the same model was available with the same stats and special rules in an Eldar army how much would that model cost. It'd be more than 16 pts.
As a long-time Eldar player, I'll comment on this.
Eldar model BS3(4) WS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 with a 18" S3 AP3 Assault 2 gun and Sv4+?
He looks like a Guardian with a better gun and armor - kind of like what a Black Guardian should be. Cost-wise Guardians are cheaper than any other model, so they are artificially overpriced at 8 pts, but only worth 6 pts base with a 12" S4 AP5 A2 Shuricat. With the gun swap and BS4 and he's worth 7 or 8 pts (S4 easily better than S3, but BS4 AP3 and 18" range is better than the Shuricat). The Armor upgrade is worth a point, so he's worth 8 or 9 pts all told, after factoring for Deep Strike and Infiltrate - Guardsmen get owned in HtH, so DS and Infiltrate aren't very useful. All told, 9 pts in an Eldar army.
For 16 pts, I'd compare him with a Scorpion, Banshee, and Fire Dragon. I'm very partial to A3+ Sv3+ Scorpions, and I don't think that a Stormtrooper model is that good. If you talk about close-in gunners, Fire Dragons easily own Stormtroopers in terms of core utility. Massed Meltas are always useful.
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Post by: Ozymandias
ph34r wrote:
I don't care that ogryns are still bad. I care that my army as it is, which contains a wide variety of infantry guardsmen and leman russ tanks as support, cannot fit into 2000 points any more. Not even close. Sorry, but special orders which may or may not be good (rapid fire vs lasguns only for double shoot order, whether or not the AT order will give +1 in addition to reroll, etc) do not make up for 15% of my army not making it to the field any more.
Please explain how a wide variety of infantry guardsmen (which decreased in points) and leman russ tanks (which went up very slightly) means that 15% of your force can't be used?
If you play a ST heavy army (incredibly niche as probably 99% of IG players don't play a ST heavy force) then yes, your points did go up. You did gain AP3 Hellguns and lots and lots of new toys, but frankly you are saying that the entire codex is crap because your one build no longer works the same as it did before.
I really don't know what to say to that.
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Post by: George Spiggott
I went through 2,000 point army (summarised below) I field and appied the rumoured points costs. Good news is my army was about 100 points cheaper, bad news is all the savings were from doctrines I could no longer take.
HQ Squad
Heavy Bolter Squad
Yarrick
4 Squad Platoon (mostly Las-Plas) x2
Hellhound x2
Demolisher x2
Griffon
Doctrines: Sharp Shooters, Iron Disipline, Close Order Drill, Drop Troops
I dare not look at my Grenadier & Carapace armour list.
[edit] Ozymandias wrote:If you play a ST heavy army (incredibly niche as probably 99% of IG players don't play a ST heavy force) then yes, your points did go up. You did gain AP3 Hellguns and lots and lots of new toys, but frankly you are saying that the entire codex is crap because your one build no longer works the same as it did before.
I really don't know what to say to that.
How about "I'm always saddened to hear when someone's army, into which they have poured so much time and love, is invalidated in a stroke by Games Workshop's slowed pendulum swing codex design. I respectfully hope that you can come up with a solution that works for you and doesn't force you to buy or change too much new stuff just to keep up with the game."
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Post by: Polonius
Good point HBMC. Apparently if your comments about these rumours is anything short "I want to build 5 different IG armies and play them all the time" you're nerd raging.
I also don't really see much raging... just discussion. I don't think that pointing out things like: Stormtroopers cost the same as Fire Dragons and Demolishers will cost roughly a loaded Falcon are angry, bitter comments. They're pointing out simple facts.
On the other hand, I'm not really that sympathetic to complaints about individual lists or army builds. Every army gets a shake up, and things that were good or even legal in one book fade out in the next.
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Post by: Ozymandias
Polonius wrote:
IG players don't ask for much: just a normal codex like everybody else, that can play and win games and has more than one half decent build.
It looks like we're going to get that with this new codex.
H.B.M.C. wrote:And your suggested alternative would be what DBM?
That we all happily suck at the teat of whatever GW puts out like a bunch of good little sycophants? Or perhaps people who are happy with the changes are allowed to express how much they love them, but those that aren't should stop right now because dissatisfaction is obviously just "nerdrage" and nothing legitimate.
Enough with the fething double standard.
People who like it can say they like it, and they're fine normal people, not sycophantic fanboys at all, but those that don't are branded whiners, neckbeards and people suffering from 'nerdrage'.
So, again, DBM, what would your suggested alternatives be?
I mean when myself, Aggy, DD and Shummy all come down on (roughly) the same side in a discussion, shouldn't that tell you something? All we need now is MIA GW sycophant Toreador to come in here claiming the end is nigh and we'll have a general Dakka consensus on the issue.
BYE
I don't even know how to respond to this. What were you looking for HBMC? It looks to me like the new IG codex is going to have lots of new toys, has a solution (may not be your definition of an ideal solution but it is a solution) to the KP problem, and looks like it can be competitive with the big boys. Am I missing something here? Shouldn't we be happy that the IG will finally be a contender again? All I see is "No way Ogryns at 35 points are the suck!" and " ST's at 16 points?!! Are you fething on crack?!" while blatantly ignoring all of the good things that are coming out with this book. Now we see who has the fething double standard.
I can't fething wait to field 6 leman russes and watch my opponent squirm as I blow massive holes in his army. Meanwhile, y'all still be bitching about 35 point Ogryns or whatever the hatred of the month is.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
focusedfire wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:focusedfire wrote:I'll buy your storm troopers, chimeras, &LRBT ....negotiations start at .10 cents on the dollar
Oh, please. A tenth of a penny per dollar?
Hell, I'll pay tenfold what you offer: a whole penny per dollar and just resell everything at 10 cents on the dollar.
OK, ten cents on the dollar then. You stated the price and I accept your offer in written contract form.
Where are my Storm troopers and LRBTs?
I think you need to learn to read more carefully.
I was counter-bidding with a higher offer to pay 1.0% instead of 0.1%, and re-sell at 10%.
Now that you have formally accepted my offer, I believe it's incumbent upon you to send your stuff to me.
As I have a much higher post count, I believe standard convention is that you will send first.
I think the easiest thing would be for you to send 9% to me (I pay you 1%, you pay me 10%) and save yourself the shipping charges and delay.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Ozymandias wrote:I can't fething wait to field 6 leman russes and watch my opponent squirm as I blow massive holes in his army.
You'll blow holes in two targets per turn (3 Russes per squadron). Depending on the targets (Land Raiders, Terminators), he might not care that you spent 1000+ pts this way.
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Post by: Polonius
Ozymandias wrote:
I don't even know how to respond to this. What were you looking for HBMC? It looks to me like the new IG codex is going to have lots of new toys, has a solution (may not be your definition of an ideal solution but it is a solution) to the KP problem, and looks like it can be competitive with the big boys. Am I missing something here? Shouldn't we be happy that the IG will finally be a contender again? All I see is "No way Ogryns at 35 points are the suck!" and "ST's at 16 points?!! Are you fething on crack?!" while blatantly ignoring all of the good things that are coming out with this book. Now we see who has the fething double standard.
I can't fething wait to field 6 leman russes and watch my opponent squirm as I blow massive holes in his army. Meanwhile, y'all still be bitching about 35 point Ogryns or whatever the hatred of the month is.
I can't speak for HBMC, but I think my problem with your view is that we're somehow supposed to be grateful that GW is dropping a new codex, and be so excited that a perennially weak tea force might be half decent that we ignore staggeringly bad units? Would it help if for every negative comment, we all posted long and eloquently about how gracious we are that GW has blessed us with infantry platoons that don't' immediately kill us in KP missions?
First off, we don't know that IG is a contender yet. We still don't have perfect info, making any strong opinions pro or con ephemeral.
Second, it doesn't take a tenured mathematician to realize that absent rules that are Harlequin level good, 16pt stormtroopers are going to be lousy.
Third, I don't think we should simply be happy with a codex that's decent. I think GW should make rules that aren't outright insulting to anybody with any sense.
Finally, I simply detest the form of moral superiority that seems to indicate that all negativity is somehow evil, or wrong. When you stop calling a spade a shovel, you have to wonder what else you're ignoring.
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Post by: Reecius
Every.
Single.
Codex.
People get their panties in a bunch when the rumors come out and run around like chicken little, crying about the sky falling.
Chill out for crying out loud, we don't even have it yet! Everyone thought the new Marines would be unstopable and that every person in GW was a moron. Well looky looky, the marine codex is fun, turning out to be pretty competetive and has a ton of variety. Win.
So just relax until not only we have the dex but we have a chance to play it and go over the various builds. You may be pleasantly surprised.
I choose to remain optimistic and not cry and gnash my teeth before I have even seen the final product.
And look at the birght side, at the very least, we will still have a lot more tanks to play with!
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Ozymandias wrote:I don't even know how to respond to this.
And yet you still did...
Ozymandias wrote:What were you looking for HBMC?
Platic Valkyries and a fun Codex. I'm sure we'll get that, and as I've said right from the start, like the recent Marine 'Dex, I'm really looking forward to this Codex. And, like the recent Marine 'Dex, I'm sure I'll really like it. However, just like the recent Marine 'Dex, I'm sure it will have some major flaws and items that I take extreme issue with.
Ozymandias wrote:It looks to me like the new IG codex is going to have lots of new toys
That you won't be able to afford assuming the price costs are correct. People are making valid points - Ogryn, Stormies and Commissars have been utter junk ever since 3rd Ed came about, and this Codex does nothing to help them. At all.
Ozymandias wrote:has a solution (may not be your definition of an ideal solution but it is a solution) to the KP problem,
I actually like the squad combining as long as it's up the player to choose which squads are combined (ie. I have 5 squads in this platoon and I want to combine two of them and leave the other three separate) rather than you either have 5 separate squdas or 1 super-squad. If the squad combining is done on a squad by squad basis, rather than lumping all squads within a platoon into an amorphus blob, then what we have is a healthy middle ground on the KP's - GW will have avoided an all or nothing solution, something they don't do often, and that's a good thing!!!
Ozymandias wrote:and looks like it can be competitive with the big boys.
None of us can make that call yet, not until we've seen the Codex. What we have seen so far is a fun Codex with lots of overcosted units (Stormies, Ogryn, Commissars, Vanquishers, Punishers, Chimeras (to a point), Valks (to a point), Executioners (arguably)).
Ozymandias wrote:Am I missing something here?
Something considerable, yes.
People who like the Codex - Normal people.
People who have misgivings - Nerdraging whiners.
It's a double standard.
Ozymandias wrote:All I see is "No way Ogryns at 35 points are the suck!" and "ST's at 16 points?!! Are you fething on crack?!" while blatantly ignoring all of the good things that are coming out with this book.
Then you can't comprehend the English language. We're not ignoring the good things, we're just discussing (as Polonius said) the bad parts, and it seems that those of us who don't instantly lap up whatever GW has to offer are branded as nerdraging whiners whereas those who choose to simply ignore the bad things and pretend they don't exist (like you Ozzy) are normal, and not fanboyish in the slightest.
That's my issue. We're allowed to discuss the Codex it seems, but only if we love it with all of our bodies, even our peepees, and only if we want to have its children. But if we have something about it that we don't like, or are concerned about, well obviously we're nerdraging neckbeaded hamfisted whiners.
Obviously.
There's your fething double standard.
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Post by: Polonius
Reecius wrote:Every.
Single.
Codex.
People get their panties in a bunch when the rumors come out and run around like chicken little, crying about the sky falling.
Chill out for crying out loud, we don't even have it yet! Everyone thought the new Marines would be unstopable and that every person in GW was a moron. Well looky looky, the marine codex is fun, turning out to be pretty competetive and has a ton of variety. Win.
So just relax until not only we have the dex but we have a chance to play it and go over the various builds. You may be pleasantly surprised.
I choose to remain optimistic and not cry and gnash my teeth before I have even seen the final product.
And look at the birght side, at the very least, we will still have a lot more tanks to play with!
And every single codex somebody says this, or something like it.
And every codex I respond with the following, or something like it:
We live in a world were information is made immediate. We get it fast, we react fast. Nobody here is forming solid opinions on the book, on the list, on GW. We are commenting on the nature of something that is unformed. Codex rumors threads would be either very short, or very repetitive if we didn't comment, good or bad, on the nature of the rumors. How many variations of "Sounds cool, I can't wait to see the actual codex" can you read before perhaps you'd like some analysis.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
H.B.M.C. wrote:And your suggested alternative would be what DBM?
That we all happily suck at the teat of whatever GW puts out like a bunch of good little sycophants? Or perhaps people who are happy with the changes are allowed to express how much they love them, but those that aren't should stop right now because dissatisfaction is obviously just "nerdrage" and nothing legitimate.
Enough with the fething double standard.
People who like it can say they like it, and they're fine normal people, not sycophantic fanboys at all, but those that don't are branded whiners, neckbeards and people suffering from 'nerdrage'.
So, again, DBM, what would your suggested alternatives be?
I mean when myself, Aggy, DD and Shummy all come down on (roughly) the same side in a discussion, shouldn't that tell you something? All we need now is MIA GW sycophant Toreador to come in here claiming the end is nigh and we'll have a general Dakka consensus on the issue.
BYE
Okay, first off - Have you seen me championing any of these changes? Trying to look on the bright side of some them (i.e., trying to find a way to play Leman Russes and hoping that there's something as yet unseen in the Ogryn rules to make them not suck balls), but I'm not happy about how many of these rumors are solidifying. Folks have heard me rant about the Punisher and the other new tanks already - I'm particularly annoyed to have just finished my 3rd Hellhound for my squadron only to find it being nerfed. I've done my own "nerdraging" on this subject. My comment was not derogatory in any way. It was an observation of just how many people are passionate about Imperial Guard - trust me, I had noticed (with surprise and alarm) at you agreeing with DD and Shuma.
As for alternatives, I think there's lots of alternatives that have been shuttled around already, but it seems to me that other than one or more of the following, at this point in the process there's not a whole lot we can do to change the rules. The way I see it we can:
a) Complain about it to GW (or through forums such as Dakka as a proxy for this);
b) Sell our IG armies in protest;
c) Try to figure out the best way to play our IG armies under the new rules (this includes both being optimistic and pessimistic about the power level of the new codex);
d) Get out of GW games completely;
e) Budget to buy new models that we may never play with but want to add to our collection;
etc. etc. etc. We have lots of options. Changing the rules of this codex release ain't one of them.
So, before you come down on me, H.B.M.C., maybe you should try to understand better what I'm trying to say rather than assuming that it's an insult. Take a look back at my post. Go ahead. Other than using the term "nerdrage" do I make any offensive comment? I'm not trying to stop anyone from talking. I was just commenting on the state of the dialog.
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Post by: Reecius
And every single codex somebody says this, or something like it.
And every codex I respond with the following, or something like it:
We live in a world were information is made immediate. We get it fast, we react fast. Nobody here is forming solid opinions on the book, on the list, on GW. We are commenting on the nature of something that is unformed. Codex rumors threads would be either very short, or very repetitive if we didn't comment, good or bad, on the nature of the rumors. How many variations of "Sounds cool, I can't wait to see the actual codex" can you read before perhaps you'd like some analysis.
Yup, and I react the same way every single time and so by your own logic, we are all still on the same merry go round.
Can't wait for the next dex, and the same arguments! God bless internet land.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
H.B.M.C. wrote:People who like the Codex - Normal people.
People who have misgivings - Nerdraging whiners.
It's a double standard.
H.B.M.C. wrote:That's my issue. We're allowed to discuss the Codex it seems, but only if we love it with all of our bodies, even our peepees, and only if we want to have its children. But if we have something about it that we don't like, or are concerned about, well obviously we're nerdraging neckbeaded hamfisted whiners.
Obviously.
There's your fething double standard.
Dammit, H.B.M.C., can't you see your own frikkin' double-standard? You're assuming that folks that are trying to look on the bright side are fanboy GW sycophant ass-lickers.
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Post by: Polonius
I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but that's just it: we're not assuming people looking on the bright side are fanbois.
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Post by: foil7102
Dammit, H.B.M.C., can't you see your own frikkin' double-standard? You're assuming that folks that are trying to look on the bright side are fanboy GW sycophant ass-lickers
arn't they?
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Post by: Dave47
Ozymandias wrote: It looks to me like the new IG codex is going to have lots of new toys, has a solution (may not be your definition of an ideal solution but it is a solution) to the KP problem, and looks like it can be competitive with the big boys. Am I missing something here? Shouldn't we be happy that the IG will finally be a contender again? All I see is "No way Ogryns at 35 points are the suck!" and "ST's at 16 points?!! Are you fething on crack?!" while blatantly ignoring all of the good things that are coming out with this book. Now we see who has the fething double standard.
Focusing on overall strength in the meta-game is only one way to look at this. There are other views, such as:
-"Perfect balance is impossible, but GW should at least make a good-faith effort to balance units."
-"Units that have been crap for a decade (or longer!) probably deserve a chance to shine."
-"Broken units should be toned down, but good units should remain good, so as not to penalize veteran players."
-"It should be possible to build an army that is both competitive and fluffy."
-"I don't like any of these new-fangled flying machines, and want to win without having to deal with that tomfoolery."
Obviously, no one holds all these views simultaneously, but I have trouble saying any of these perspectives are categorically invalid. It's possible to like the new Codex overall, but not like sub-parts of it, and it's posible to like some parts of the new Codex, but not be impressed with the overall document.
I'm holding out until a PDF leaks to make a judgment on the Codex as a whole, but I think it's possible to be annoyed by aspects of these rumors.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Polonius wrote:I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but that's just it: we're not assuming people looking on the bright side are fanbois.
You may not, but H.B.M.C. certainly implied that he does:
H.B.M.C. wrote:Then you can't comprehend the English language. We're not ignoring the good things, we're just discussing (as Polonius said) the bad parts, and it seems that those of us who don't instantly lap up whatever GW has to offer are branded as nerdraging whiners whereas those who choose to simply ignore the bad things and pretend they don't exist (like you Ozzy) are normal, and not fanboyish in the slightest.
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Post by: foil7102
Hey personally I am looking foward to my 6 Russ army. Too bad its the dual lash of this dex. So much hope, so much promise, so many crushed dreams.....
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Given the sheer amount of GW stuff (in general, IG in specific) that I (and others) own, I think we can be fairly classed as fanbois. I mean, the retail value of my Guard infantry alone is more than many armies. And I'm not alone here.
And I've played Guard since they only had the 3E Rulebook army list.
So, yeah, I think I've paid quite enough cash and dues as a fanboi to whine quite a bit when I'm not happy with where parts of my Guard army are going.
___
ed; sp
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Post by: Polonius
Death By Monkeys wrote:Polonius wrote:I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but that's just it: we're not assuming people looking on the bright side are fanbois.
You may not, but H.B.M.C. certainly implied that he does:
H.B.M.C. wrote:Then you can't comprehend the English language. We're not ignoring the good things, we're just discussing (as Polonius said) the bad parts, and it seems that those of us who don't instantly lap up whatever GW has to offer are branded as nerdraging whiners whereas those who choose to simply ignore the bad things and pretend they don't exist (like you Ozzy) are normal, and not fanboyish in the slightest.
He's saying that if Ozy calls HBMC a hater, but does not call himself a fanboi, it's a double standard. HBMC isn't calling either party either label. He's implying that if he's a Hater, than by logic Ozy would than be a fanboi, but I think that again HBMC has allowed attitude to slightly cloud content. I'm assuming, and I could be wrong, is that both view points are totally valid and not due to some moral failing.
Pointing out the existence of a possible double standard does not, in itself, create that double standard.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
I'm not saying you can't or you shouldn't! That's why we're here and not over on Warseer in the love-fest that is the 100+ pages of discussion on the IG codex.
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Post by: foil7102
Do you really want to know why there was so much "nerd rage" I ask you to look for the posts when we were assuming that all of the various tanks cost the same. (Russ body, cost the same as Russ body, Demolisher body cost the same as Demolisher body) You want to know what the general consensus was? The stock Russ was the best pick of the stock tanks and the plasma canon Russ was the best of the demolisher varients and probably work a 10-15 points more. We then see the costs and its like a kick in the nuts.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
DD makes a good point.
I own 30 Russes for feth's sake!!! I've got 400 infantry, a further 25 other Guard vehicles, every Cadian model ever made and soon will have 10 Super-Heavies. Of course I'm a damned Guard fanboi. The presence of this Codex isn't going to stop me from using them or lessen them in my eyes.
But the Codex will be flawed. And discussing those flaws isn't a bad thing.
Death By Monkeys - I'm not implying that those who like the Codex are fanboys. I'm implying that those that ignore the bad things to the point where they pretend they don't exist, or those that think we should be somehow greatful for GW for this Codex, they're the sycophantic loons.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Polonius wrote:Pointing out the existence of a possible double standard does not, in itself, create that double standard.
Okay. LOL. You got me there. Point made and taken.
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Post by: Polonius
JohnHwangDD wrote:Given the sheer amount of GW stuff (in general, IG in specific) that I (and others) own, I think we can be fairly classed as fanbois. I mean, the retail value of my Guard infantry alone is more than many armies. And I'm not alone here.
And I've played Guard since they only had the 3E Rulebook army list.
So, yeah, I think I've paid quite enough cash and dues as a fanbody to whine quite a bit when I'm not happy with where parts of my Guard army are going.
Hell, I have 7500 points IG, all painted, all metal (except the tanks). I'm excited about this codex, and oddly, I'm excited about buying new units for my army that I can use outside of Apocalypse. I mean, I'm hoping stormtroopers actually rock, and that Ogryn are worth 35pts, that Commissars are good and that there will be more in my IG tourney armies than platoons and LRBTs. That doesn't mean I'm going to ignore what I see, which is... uneven.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
H.B.M.C. wrote:DD makes a good point.
I own 30 Russes for feth's sake!!! I've got 400 infantry, a further 25 other Guard vehicles, every Cadian model ever made and soon will have 10 Super-Heavies. Of course I'm a damned Guard fanboi. The presence of this Codex isn't going to stop me from using them or lessen them in my eyes.
But the Codex will be flawed. And discussing those flaws isn't a bad thing.
Right, and I'm not arguing with that. See my previous post re: Warseer.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Death By Monkeys - I'm not implying that those who like the Codex are fanboys. I'm implying that those that ignore the bad things to the point where they pretend they don't exist, or those that think we should be somehow greatful for GW for this Codex, they're the sycophantic loons.
I'd say that the folks who ignore the bad things to the point where they pretend they don't exist aren't so much sycophantic as just uneducated and/or ignorant (unwillingly or willingly). Fanboy, yes, sycophantic - maybe, maybe not. (Sorry, is that worse than being sycophantic? I mean, someone can get themselves educated.)
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Post by: ph34r
Ozymandias wrote:ph34r wrote:
I don't care that ogryns are still bad. I care that my army as it is, which contains a wide variety of infantry guardsmen and leman russ tanks as support, cannot fit into 2000 points any more. Not even close. Sorry, but special orders which may or may not be good (rapid fire vs lasguns only for double shoot order, whether or not the AT order will give +1 in addition to reroll, etc) do not make up for 15% of my army not making it to the field any more.
Please explain how a wide variety of infantry guardsmen (which decreased in points) and leman russ tanks (which went up very slightly) means that 15% of your force can't be used?
Sure, I'll explain for you!
My command squads all cost 20 points more: 60 points
My leman russes cost 30, 30, and 45 points more each
My (now abandoned) storm trooper squad increased 70 points
My infantry squads decreased 5 points each: -20 total
My two veteran squads will cost 55 points more each (though yes, they will each gain a few more useless bodies): 110 points
Two of my heavy weapons teams decrease by 20 each: -40
All the other units either don't change much so far as rumored or cancel each other out simply.
In the end an increase of just under 300 points, or 15%. This means about 15% of my force cannot be used.
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Post by: Kungfuhustler
focusedfire wrote:As to the question of stormtrooper pricing. If the same model was available with the same stats and special rules in an Eldar army how much would that model cost. It'd be more than 16 pts.
They would have more synergy with eldar then they do guard. They's never make it into the codex... assuming, and probably falsely, that GW conducts playtesting.
Gestalt wrote:Gestalt wrote:
For Ogryns an allied WH Inquis(cheap) or Hero(ld9-10) with book of st lucius would be even better than a commissar who only has 1 wound. Though they are IC, keeping them within 6", in the chimera perhaps, would keep them around.
You forget the ability to take a LRC with this combo. That would make it an assault threat of 18", with 7 ogryn, 1 cannoness w/ powersword and book, and 1 priest to allow re-rolls on all attacks and swing an evicerator around. brutal.
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Post by: aka_mythos
Agamemnon2 wrote:aka_mythos wrote:I think one issue I'm seeing with peoples reactions is that they want it all. Its not good enough that you can take a massive amount of infantry with new abilities; its not enough that we can choose to take 9 Leman Russes; its not enough we have valkyries... some people want it all and want it for cheap enough to all fit in one 2000 pt army. Some one said this before, this army is all about synergy, I hate that word but there it is. So there are things not to your liking. Am I going to have to redo my Grenadiers and do something with them, of course, but that's part of the game. Even if this codex isn't the greatest, it is a flavorful improvement.
I do not think that lowering the points cost of an infantry squad from 60 to 50pts plus upgrades is really the massive improvement you're calling it, nor am I convinced that the army's problems can be solved by throwing more bodies at it. For what it's worth, I never wanted to be able to field nine Leman Russes, I think the idea alone is absurd and unfeasible, and it takes well over 1500 points to even contemplate. I never wanted the Valkyrie, beautiful as it might be, because I do not feel a fast skimmer is an appropriate thing for IG to have.
That isn't what I said, is it; I didn't call it a massive improvement. I said "a massive amount of infantry with new abilities." As in they have abilities they previously didn't. I'm not claiming you personally wanted to take those things. I'm saying the new codex offers a lot of options and that you obviously can't take it all. I'm sorry you didn't get what you want.
Agamemnon2 wrote:What I wanted is simple. The Salamander, the Quad-Launcher, better mortars, maybe even off-table artillery support, a good solution to the Kill Points question, an end to the bickering about heavy weapon teams and a way to make Ogryns worth their points. These goals were met in various ways ranging from "almost" to "not at all".
I wanted the Sabre brought back to the space marines, that didn't happen, but I don't hold it against the marine codex. The salamander would have been cool, the quad launcher as well. Off table artillery is through the appropriate advisor. Kill points I think were handled in the most balanced way, its variable and flexible, with fair trade offs for having the oversized single KP units or tactically flexible squads. Ogryns we only know their point costs, we don't know their "worth". When you compare an ogryn to an average guardsmen and what it means to the average guardsmen to have that in their back pocket it may end up being worth the points; with all the tanks, who'll have time to try and insta-kill ogryns with anti-tank weapons.
H.B.M.C. wrote:aka_mythos wrote:I think one issue I'm seeing with peoples reactions is that they want it all. Its not good enough that you can take a massive amount of infantry with new abilities; its not enough that we can choose to take 9 Leman Russes; its not enough we have valkyries... some people want it all and want it for cheap enough to all fit in one 2000 pt army.
Have you been reading this thread mythos? There are people who can't field their current army under the new points values, let alone any of the new stuff. It's not about 'wanting it all', it's about wanting something, but being unable to do it because the costs have gone up so much (or, enough that any savings from things going down is completely lost). Ogryns and Storm Troopers are a joke at those costs. Commissars are still overpriced. Most of the tanks are overpriced (especially the Vanq and Punisher). The sponson costs sound astronomical.
Yep. Do you read my posts? I admit to being one of the people who can't field their current army, but its an aspect of the hobby, keeps us from getting too stuck in our ways of only playing the game one way and keeps it all interesting and varied.
Point savings versus point increases can only be looked at in the way you're insisting if all things are equal, but they aren't. These units have different stats, rules, and points and are written for a different edition of the game, all things are not equal to make the sort of direct comparison you insist on. Ogryns and Stormtroopers are more expensive, as are most elite units in almost every redone army. Its a general re-emphasis of the game on to the troop component of the armies. I believe our army while in general is more expensive is also more lethal.
The costs of sponsons are because we can now shoot everything, we can shoot on the move. I would think those things would effect the cost in an upward direction. I would love to see the mathhammer that calculates the increased lethality of shoot everything every turn off of a leman russ. I see most of them as being proportionately equal in cost to their increased lethality. I do believe that the price of the different variants are a little off, but only to marginal degrees that constitute no more than 5% percent of their total cost. Not knowing all the details we don't know if that cost is coming from something else. I think the Punisher is the only tank truly off the ball, but I can say why. The psychology of writing a unit with Heavy 20 insists that the writer price it based on its potential lethality over pricing based on its average lethality.
H.B.M.C. wrote:And this is just absurd:
aka_mythos wrote:As to the question of stormtrooper pricing. If the same model was available with the same stats and special rules in an Eldar army how much would that model cost. It'd be more than 16 pts.
If you took Marines and put them in Eldar, would they suddenly jump in cost? No. They're not suddenly more effective or better. They might be better than other choices in that Codex, but that doesn't mean their price should go up. They're still worth what they're worth.
BS4 WS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8 Sv4+ model with a Strength 3 gun, Deep Strike and Infiltrate taking up an Elite Slot is 10 points per model. The AP3 is almost meaningless in a 5th Ed context and not the be-all/end-all and they lost 6" of range (making their targeters all the more useless). They're certainly not worth +6 points over their current cost.
BYE
Umm I didn't say that focusedfire did. Go check!
The targeter works differently now, allows re-rolls of some sort, which is better than measuring distance. They also have their three missions which have further affects on the squad; move through cover or outflank or airial assault (if with Valk).
I wouldn't call AP3 "almost meanignless" either. Of all the armies I play marines end up using cover least. Next is the fact that in using their advantage of asymmetric tactics they can deploy to places where they can take advantage of their AP3 advantage. They have and an ability and means to maximize its use.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm not. My Grenadiers are becoming ISTs.
Ogryns went from 25 pts each to 35 pts each - a 30+% cost increase. For those kinds of points, I'd rather take GKTs or a DH with Eversor. Anything else, really, as I don't believe Ogryns are playable at all at their currently-rumored points costs.
Chimeras aren't horrible, but they are somewhat overcosted. Valks are definitely overcosted, but at least they look cool.
I don't think Guard are going to be as powerful as current Drop Troops builds. Also, Russ squadrons are kind of iffy - they'll have to dump all firepower at the same target. Not nearly as good as Basilisks which held cost.
My grenadiers are going to be Veterans with carapace.
We don't know all the details on Ogryns, they may well be worth 35pts. I'm just saying a wait smidgen before passing condemnation.
Chimeras worked for me before at 90+ points, at any number of point less if they work equally well, its free points.
I never really thought drop troops should have been a part of the IG, it diluted the value of stormtroopers and blurred a degree of distinctive value of marines over IG.
Valks, I think are about right, especially looking at their weapons and abilities. Its a unique asset to the imperial guard.
We don't know all the rules for LR squadrons yet. In particular the tank squad commander. Once again reserve judgment.
If it weren't for the fact you start to run out of places to tuck away 9 Basilisks that would have been an easy list.
Neil wrote:aka_mythos wrote:
As to the question of stormtrooper pricing. If the same model was available with the same stats and special rules in an Eldar army how much would that model cost. It'd be more than 16 pts.
Eldar get freaking Fire Dragons for 16 points each.
YOu shouldn't misquote me that was FOCUSEDFIRE!!! PAGE 4, FIFTH POST DOWN! GAWD even John got it right.
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Post by: Kungfuhustler
I think I am going to run 3 executioners w/ plaz sponsons and 3 punishers w/ HB sponsons. both in squadrons if the tank commander allows you to split fire. Sure it costs a helluva lot o' points (13-1400 was it?) but the wall of AV14 DOOM will eat anything alive. anything. 15 plasmacannon shots and 87 str 5 shots?! What will stand against that?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Kungfuhustler wrote:I think I am going to run 3 executioners w/ plaz sponsons and 3 punishers w/ HB sponsons. both in squadrons if the tank commander allows you to split fire.
Oh God what a horrid thought. If the Russ Squadrons really do all have to fire at the same target (meaning that no one will take Russ Squadrons - they'll take single Russes like we take single Land Speeders now), then a special character the negates that will instantly become Guard's first Mandatory Non-Special Special Character, the Eldrad of the Guard, so to speak.
Kungfuhustler put those evil evil thoughts back into whatever dark corner of your mind you pulled them from!!!
BYE
10123
Post by: BoxANT
Well I am still very much looking forward to this codex
Even if many things are over priced, I think it will still be a lot of fun on the board.
It looks like Vets+Carapace will replace the roll that we currently use ST/ IST for and that ST are becoming a more "specialized" unit. Until we get a few months with the new codex, we will not have a good idea of how they work in game. Perhaps a Squad of ST in a Chimera will be a nice rapid fire surprise for any would be assaulters... Perhaps Ogyrns will actually stop a uber CC unit from ripping through our firebase? That might be worth the points.
My point is that these new units/points must be tried out in game before we can really decide if they're worth it or not.
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Post by: sharkticon
I'm looking forward to this codex. My three griffons will finally be used in games again (three indirect firing pie plates for 225 points, yes please!)
The psychic chorus looks amazing, if the rumored 60 points for a minimum squad is true. If it is, you can extrapolate that it would be around 120 for a full chorus, that can hide in cover while dropping str. 9 pies. Their other ability to deny ld points could be useful too, especially in conjunction with sniper and mortar fire.
Usakar Kreed could be as mandatory as Eldrad if the rumors are true, if the points are low enough, four orders are too good to pass up.
I see the ordnance and astropath advisers being near mandatory, because who doesn't want to delay enemy reserves and have a basilisk in a flak jacket.
I'm also intrested to see how the change in points to 5 points in grenade launchers will effect the army. They may be useful for once.
I am disappointed by the lack of a good kill point solution, but you can't have everything.
I also think that 16 points for stormies is way too much.
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Post by: ChaseMacKenzie
Can I induct IST at 10 pts, and reference their hellguns to the AP3 ones in the new codex...??
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
ChaseMacKenzie wrote:Can I induct IST at 10 pts, and reference their hellguns to the AP3 ones in the new codex...??
No more than a Dark Angel player can claim a 3+(I) save on his Storm Shield, or a Chaos player can claim 12 people fit in his Land Raiders.
In other words - no. You can't.
Welcome to 5th Ed.
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Post by: cerberez
I don't quite understand why 35 is too many points for Ogryns. . . . It seems like that much T and W and FNP alone (soaking up so much injury) would be worth 35 pts even without the damage they'll do.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
If they have FNP it's a very different story. Shrugging off fully half of what you throw at them (and then add in 3 wounds) and its a big difference. Ogryn don't need to kill things, they just need to avoid being killed. T5 does that. T5 makes them worth their 25 points, but not 35 points. FNP make them worth more than 25 points though - maybe not 35 (350+ for a full unit is a hell of an ask) - but 25 seems really good for a model that you need S10 to kill and who will shrug off 50% of all S9 and below hits.
If they have FNP that is. And that's a big if.
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Post by: Cheese Elemental
I'm thinking that the Leman Russ Punisher will be the death of horde players, and will prove all the more deadly against fragile gunlines like Tau. *If* you were fanatical enough to use 9 Punishers, that's 180 S5 shots a turn. Not even assault termies are going to stand up to that many shots.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I'd rather take the Eradicator. It ignores Armour Saves all the way up to 4+ and ignores all cover saves. Far more dangerous against Hordes.
BYE
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Post by: Vaktathi
Kungfuhustler wrote:I think I am going to run 3 executioners w/ plaz sponsons and 3 punishers w/ HB sponsons. both in squadrons if the tank commander allows you to split fire. Sure it costs a helluva lot o' points (13-1400 was it?) but the wall of AV14 DOOM will eat anything alive. anything. 15 plasmacannon shots and 87 str 5 shots?! What will stand against that?
One nob biker with a powerklaw getting into one tank in either squadron stands a decent chance. Getting 2 or 3 in is probably a certainty.
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Post by: Gestalt
Im pretty sure Ogryn do not have FNP, they have furious charge and stubborn. In fact as far as I can tell FNP was never in a leak, just someone said they wanted to do FNP OR T5. Who knows what the Ogryn special character has too.
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Post by: warboss
H.B.M.C. wrote:DD makes a good point.
I own 30 Russes for feth's sake!!! I've got 400 infantry, a further 25 other Guard vehicles, every Cadian model ever made and soon will have 10 Super-Heavies. Of course I'm a damned Guard fanboi.
wow, i just realized after quoting your post that dakka changes a particular 4 letter F word to feth automatically. i was going to say that you also swear like a tanith guardsman too!
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Post by: ChaseMacKenzie
H.B.M.C. wrote:ChaseMacKenzie wrote:Can I induct IST at 10 pts, and reference their hellguns to the AP3 ones in the new codex...??
No more than a Dark Angel player can claim a 3+(I) save on his Storm Shield, or a Chaos player can claim 12 people fit in his Land Raiders.
In other words - no. You can't.
Welcome to 5th Ed.
But the Space Wolves can use the 3+(I) from the new Marine codex as it says "refer to Codex:Space marines" or something to that affect?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
But the Inquisitorial Storm Troopers entry doesn't say 'refer to the Imperial Guard Codex' at any point. They are a self-contained unit that exist only within the WH and DH Codices.
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Post by: BoxANT
I'm planning on running with a couple Eradicators myself, I always wanted a "hellhound" Leman Russ
I have been thinking about the normal Hellhound and if it is worth is at 130 points w/ only a 12" cannon (albeit auto hit) and I am wondering if a combination of Eradicators (or stock LRBT) hitting a unit combined with a strike from Hellhounds would be enough to wipe out an entire Ork Mob in one go (even with grots in front). Currently (w/ a grot screen) Orks are able to advance without much worry into IG guns, but w/ all these tanks that ignore cover (and throw in some griffons for good measure!), those units could be smashed in a couple turns.
The only question is how would they stand up against MEQ.
Hmmmm....
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Post by: Raxmei
Wild guess says heavy weapons squads are six strong, just like now. The usual way that this sort of squad is done is that squads that can buy massed heavy weapons pay a premium for the privilege. In the current codex, for example, everything but the lascannon got a 5 point surcharge. 60 points is cheaper than a hypothetical infantry squad with three mortars. A ten-man heavy weapon squad would then be a discount for massing heavy weapons. Deducting weapons, there are 45 points worth of men in the squad. Ten men are unrealistic and all other numbers untidy. The six man squad has weight of tradition behind it. One ablative wound before you start losing firepower.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, although I can understand the design considerations behind the new way that guard heavy weapons are handled the outcome does not please me.
As a side note, point costs suggest that you're best off putting any lascannons you want to use in infantry squads and to equip any heavy weapon squads you do use with cheap antipersonnel weapons. An otherwise unupgraded lascannon infantry squad costs 2/3 as much as a lascannon support squad, compared to 11/12 for the same comparison with mortars. They share the same proportional drop in firepower but have considerably different drops in price. This point of economics happens to point in the same direction as HBMC's tactical reasoning behind putting lascannons in infantry squads instead of support squads.
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Post by: ph34r
Raxmei wrote:Deducting weapons, there are 45 points worth of men in the squad. Ten men are unrealistic and all other numbers untidy.\
Considering that the new troop squad is 50 points and includes a sergeant, I would say 10 men in the HW squad and no sergeant option. Exactly the same points per guard.
EDIT: and 45 points for 6 wounds would be a lot, considering that in the 3rd ed codex it was 35 points for 6 men and guard cost 66 points for a squad+srg. I'm not saying that HW squads will necessarily be 10 men, but I think that they should.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
aka_mythos wrote:My grenadiers are going to be Veterans with carapace.
We don't know all the details on Ogryns, they may well be worth 35pts.
Chimeras worked for me before at 90+ points, at any number of point less if they work equally well, its free points.
I never really thought drop troops should have been a part of the IG, it diluted the value of stormtroopers and blurred a degree of distinctive value of marines over IG.
Valks, I think are about right, especially looking at their weapons and abilities.
We don't know all the rules for LR squadrons yet. In particular the tank squad commander.
If it weren't for the fact you start to run out of places to tuck away 9 Basilisks that would have been an easy list.
OK, that works. OTOH, my Grenadiers started as ISTs, or rather, were retconned into ISTs, so ISTs they are! 
I understand that there is some question about Ogryns, but I'm having a lot of trouble seeing how a single minimum-sized unit of 3 non-Scoring Ogryns has roughly the same in-game value of 2 entire units of 10 Guardsmen each. Given that the Ogryns will need a 55-pt Chimera of their own, and probably need to be 6-strong in HtH, we're talking about a minimum of 255 pts. That's a lot of Guardsmen and/or Chimeras.
I refused to pay 90+ pts for Chimeras - under the old rules, I pegged them as 20+ pts overpriced. But if they work for you, all good. If they can have Autocannons, that'll be useful, and I'll refit accordingly.
I resisted Drop Troops for quite a while, but they were just too effective not to take. I now look at it as "Ambushers" - hidden Guardmen break cover at an opportune moment, rather than literally dropping from the sky. Storms weren't worth Elite slots when DSing tri-Melta Vets were available, and it wasn't worth paying extra points for DS/Infiltrate.
Valks are 100+ pts for a non-Scoring Transport unit that carries a lot of guns, but wants to move Fast. In a world of 35-pt Rhinos, 100+ pts for a Transport is pretty crazy.
Right now, Tank Squadrons would have to fire at the same target, whereas IF Squadrons have the strong advantage of multiple Barrage. But yeah, the Tanker Special Character would do something. I'm guessing 50 pts for a BS4 Tank Ace who takes a Tank as an Elite... Woo-hoo!
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Oh, I think HWS and SWS will be 35 pts base (instead of a proper 30 pts) *and* weapons will likely get a +5 pt cost bump for good measure. They're good, so GW will necessarily screw the costs.
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Post by: ph34r
The rumors seem to suggest that a heavy weapon squad starts with mortars and upgrades from there. I'd bet special weapon squads start with flamers or grenade launchers and go from there.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Ozymandias wrote:I don't even know how to respond to this. What were you looking for HBMC? It looks to me like the new IG codex is going to have lots of new toys, has a solution (may not be your definition of an ideal solution but it is a solution) to the KP problem, and looks like it can be competitive with the big boys. Am I missing something here? Shouldn't we be happy that the IG will finally be a contender again? All I see is "No way Ogryns at 35 points are the suck!" and "ST's at 16 points?!! Are you fething on crack?!" while blatantly ignoring all of the good things that are coming out with this book. Now we see who has the fething double standard.
Any army list with useless entries in it is at least a partial failure. Not that there every could be a perfect idealised list. It doesn't matter how good our Troops choices are if our Elites suck (and by the look of things, they do, badly). I won't be bothering with Storm Troopers, Ogryns and probably not Ratlings either. But hey, now I have room for the 12 heavy mortars with inferno rounds I always wanted!
A wildly disparate power level is just as bad as an underpowered army list. That we got a kickass Heavy Support section does not matter one iota if our Elites slots are populated by fragile overspecialists, disappointing sharpshooters or overcosted Ogryns. If the price for " IG becoming a contender" is leaving those units behind, I don't want to pay it. Would Marine players have been happy if Terminators were unfieldable but the rest of the list awesome? Would Eldar aficionados accept that Farseers, Dire Avengers and Guardians suck, in exchange for kickass Dark Reapers and Harlequins?
My standard is unrealistic, but fair. I want nothing less than internally balanced army lists.
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Post by: Shep
ph34r wrote:My command squads all cost 20 points more: 60 points
But now it can give a unit a 2+ cover save, make heavy weapons twin linked or give you extra shots.
ph34r wrote:My leman russes cost 30, 30, and 45 points more each
And have twice the firepower and 13 side armor
ph34r wrote:My (now abandoned) storm trooper squad increased 70 points
Well there are some points back. Good idea to abandon a unit before a codex even came out.
ph34r wrote:My infantry squads decreased 5 points each: -20 total
and gained leadership 8, a 2+ cover save, twin linked heavy weapons or extra rapid fire shots if you spend an order on them
ph34r wrote:My two veteran squads will cost 55 points more each (though yes, they will each gain a few more useless bodies): 110 points
And they became scoring units. I heard thats a big deal for some missions in 5th ed.
ph34r wrote:Two of my heavy weapons teams decrease by 20 each: -40
And can be twin-linked with an order, and are scoring units.
I think you are missing some serious details. Perhaps you are looking at it less from a competitive point of view and more from a "i spent some money and I dont want to spend any more." point of view. GW isn't really looking to cater to that point of view.
Just in case anyone cares, almost everyone in this thread, although occasionally resorting to hyperbole to make a point, are just talking about things they wanted and didnt get. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I might come in here and try and cheer you up by disagreeing with some people's power level concerns, but there are some people who had desires that just aren't going to get met. Its an impossible task to hit everyones pet ideas and project wants.
Here are some points (some are opinion) that I want to stress.
1. If you just want to win... I see at least one way for you to do that, for any mission... not 100% of the time, no codex should give you that power.
2. If you just wanted to make a fun to play, flavorful army, you can do that, multiple different ways. Your particular version of guard may not be in here, but now its time to have some fun and find something new to put your stamp on. If you aren't interested in something new, well then the unfortunate truth is that GW isn't interested in you. (but i'll still be your friend)
3. No one has played with storm troopers (or know the details of their mission rules) or ogryn yet as far as I know. I agree with many early concerns about their effectiveness. But I hold judgement until I've gotten out of the armchair and up to the table. Talking about them dispassionately seems fine. Freaking out about them this early is just sad.
4. There are tons of misconceptions about vehicle squadrons and if they are worth it or if they aren't. Most arguments for or against use extremes to make their points. No one is talking about taking 9 leman russes, but people are looking to add more russes to their armies in the most efficient way possible. Well played russ squadrons won't be getting charged by power fists because their general knows how devastating this will be, and the codex has the tools to counter this tactic. Kill points as a game mechanic has driven unit sizes up, and killed off MSU for the most part. 3x leman russes into fresh units won't be overkill. Those same russes into a wounded unit of course will. But a well built guard unit would have other options to finish off a unit sufficiently softened unit. I am also aware that just taking a bunch of russes and not having a obejctive oriented gameplan is not going to somehow net you an easy win.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
JohnHwangDD wrote:Oh, I think HWS and SWS will be 35 pts base (instead of a proper 30 pts) *and* weapons will likely get a +5 pt cost bump for good measure. They're good, so GW will necessarily screw the costs.
Would you please stop pretending to be me when you post. I'm finding it really disconcerting. You're not a Skrull by any chance DD?
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Post by: ph34r
Shep wrote:A lot of stuff
1. A 2+ cover save, at the cost of an order that I will have a mighty 4 of, and the unit not shooting the next turn. The only things I worry about hitting my guard are whirlwinds, flamers, and close combat, and a slightly better "Hit the deck!" at the cost of an order is not good. When you say 2+ save it sounds so super special awesome, but guess what? I can give my squads a 3+ save whenever I want, by doing nothing but invoking a rule found in the main rule book. All armies can get 3+ cover, using up 25% of my super special power to improve the save of a unit by 1, a unit that generally only worries about things that do not care about cover saves, is not worth it. I need those orders to have my lascannons feebly attempt to take out land raiders.
2. Being able to shoot one more HB on the move is trash, but being able to shoot a lot of HB stationary is okay. However, it is not worth that much to me. I make sure my side armor does not get hit so side armor 13, while nice, is not a huge OMG MASSIVE BUFF moment for me.
3. We have pretty much confirmed rumors of storm troopers. 16 points, anti marine guns, special missions (pinning shots? move through cover? great...). Are you seriously suggesting that storm troopers will still be worth taking? Unless I am missing something huge they look to be garbage.
4. Leadership 8, sure. However leadership has not been a problem for me, being able to destroy my enemy has. If I want good leadership I will take a canoness with a book, which I do sometimes. Why not make the squad leader an upgrade option? It's not free if they make you take it, you are paying for it whether you want to or not. 2+ cover I have already addressed. Twin linked weapons are looking good but will never replace melta gun vets. Not even close. Extra rapid fire shots looks good. Here's hoping it's not just lasguns.
5. Twin linked I already addressed, again. Scoring units is a good bonus, but I don't think that I will be lacking troops units in my deployment zone, and I am not going to walk my hw squads towards the enemy. They're just a bit of backup scoring weight.
Perhaps you are looking at it less from a competitive point of view and more from a "i spent some money and I dont want to spend any more." point of view.
That's just straight up wrong. As I said in detail earlier I would love to buy a lot of new units, I even listed all dozen or so that I would want. Unfortunately there is just no way for them to fit in my army list with my basic stuff becoming so much more costly.
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Post by: Dave47
Wait, what? PHQs are 60 points? For five models, and the ability to issue one order a turn?
Is that confirmed, or just negative nellies being negative? Because if that's true, that's a load of garbage.
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Post by: ph34r
According to http://colgravis.blogspot.com/ "Basic Company Commanders are around 50pts". Hopefully a "Basic Company Commander" is not equivalent to a JO, and there is a lower, less expensive version for troop command squads.
fake edit:
According to the IG summary sheet, there is a lesser "Platoon Commander" unit. I assume this is for platoons.
I would guess that platoon commander is for infantry platoon command squads, company command is for HQ command squads, and the only step above that is a special character. So changed from JO->SO->HSO to PC->CC->special character.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
As I understand it, it's as confirmed as anything is right now. It turns my old 238-point platoon into a 220 point platoon. By Grabthar's Hammer, what savings!
And that's not even taking near-compulsory voxes into account (at least 5 pts each)
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Post by: focusedfire
ph34r wrote:focusedfire wrote:Same offer goes to you Ph34r. You seem to think its hopless. want to sell now?
If I sold every army that GW made non-existent or horrible... I would have zero armies.
So, to summarizes, the whole sysstem stinks and you hate every army(Its what your staement says)
Then please do the gaming community a favor and sell off the rest so you won't be forced into a game you hate so much that you ruin it for those that enjoy the game.
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Post by: ph34r
focusedfire wrote:So, to summarizes, the whole sysstem stinks and you hate every army(Its what your staement says)
Then please do the gaming community a favor and sell off the rest so you won't be forced into a game you hate so much that you ruin it for those that enjoy the game.
What my statement says is that every army I have made so far with the exception of my first few models has been invalidated. My iron warriors do not have rules any more. My small lost and the damned force that I made to go along with my iron warriors does not exist any more. My imperial guard seem to be getting the shaft. Do you understand now? What you assume me to be saying is nowhere near correct.
Please do the gaming community a favor and think before you post.
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Post by: Dave47
focusedfire wrote:ph34r wrote:focusedfire wrote:Same offer goes to you Ph34r. You seem to think its hopless. want to sell now?
If I sold every army that GW made non-existent or horrible... I would have zero armies.
So, to summarizes, the whole sysstem stinks and you hate every army(Its what your staement says)
Then please do the gaming community a favor and sell off the rest so you won't be forced into a game you hate so much that you ruin it for those that enjoy the game.
Wait, what? He's ruining Warhammer for those that enjoy it? By pointing out flaws in the system? Frankly, if your enjoyment of GW games is so easily impacted by other people pointing out flaws, I would say the problem is on your end. Therefore, based on your logic, I think you need to sell me all of your miniatures. For ten cents on the dollar.
You may protest by pointing out that, even if you did want to quit the game forever, selling for ten cents on the dollar is slowed. But this is your logic. So you should live by it.
Or else stop being ridiculous. Either option works.
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Post by: focusedfire
JohnHwangDD wrote:focusedfire wrote:As to the question of stormtrooper pricing. If the same model was available with the same stats and special rules in an Eldar army how much would that model cost. It'd be more than 16 pts.
As a long-time Eldar player, I'll comment on this. Eldar model BS3(4) WS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 with a 18" S3 AP3 Assault 2 gun and Sv4+? He looks like a Guardian with a better gun and armor - kind of like what a Black Guardian should be. Cost-wise Guardians are cheaper than any other model, so they are artificially overpriced at 8 pts, but only worth 6 pts base with a 12" S4 AP5 A2 Shuricat. With the gun swap and BS4 and he's worth 7 or 8 pts (S4 easily better than S3, but BS4 AP3 and 18" range is better than the Shuricat). The Armor upgrade is worth a point, so he's worth 8 or 9 pts all told, after factoring for Deep Strike and Infiltrate - Guardsmen get owned in HtH, so DS and Infiltrate aren't very useful. All told, 9 pts in an Eldar army. For 16 pts, I'd compare him with a Scorpion, Banshee, and Fire Dragon. I'm very partial to A3+ Sv3+ Scorpions, and I don't think that a Stormtrooper model is that good. If you talk about close-in gunners, Fire Dragons easily own Stormtroopers in terms of core utility. Massed Meltas are always useful.
Your math doesn't even begin to reflect the reality of what the eldar pay. Guardians are 8pts now with 12" range guns and no special abilities. The 10-man squad goes up to 12 pts each when you add the sgt/warlock plus any power that makes the squad effective. Thats without the ap3 gun that has an 18" range, +1 pt sv, the fact that they have a Re-rollable deepstrike, infiltrate, can benefit from orders, and look to have special orders rules. What game system are you playing that ap3, increased range, re-rollable deep-strike, infiltrate, orders that give you bladestormare don't equalanother 4 pts. In the Eldar army you have to buy a squad to do one then another squad to do the other. Then Buy an Exarch at 12pts plus the power(Isn't bladestorm 15pts). Thats almost 3 points each man before the infiltrate and deepstrike that come out to the 1 pt you claim. HHmm, 16pts total. Yeah they are I3 but the save is 4+. Edit out the using to much modeling glue joke and instead: A couple of you mentioned the Fire dragons owning the Storms in ability and use. Not even close. The only time you need 10 meltas is if your facing a complex multi-wound unit like nob bikers, large meq squads not in cover, and now just maybe LRBT squadrons. Their range and rate of fire are two low. The storms have greater range, higher rate of fire, the ability to take out a single tank(sometimes 2 in a squadron), greater mission flexibilty, is just as good at taking out Meq, and comes with a 55pt transport option as opposed to the 120pt(avg?) wave serp. No they won't do as much against Nob bikers. But with that many tanks behind them thats probably not their mission.
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Post by: focusedfire
@ Ph34r,
What you meant and what you wrote were two different things.
If you can't handle it when someone calls you on your poor choice of words. Then, with all due courtesy, maybe you should be the one who thinks before posting.
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Post by: ph34r
I guess I assumed that anyone would infer "If I sold every army that GW made non-existent or horrible... I would have zero armies." to mean "If I sold every army [that I have] that GW made non-existent or horrible... I would have zero armies." Obviously I cannot sell armies that I do not have. I do not have every army. I should have a disclaimer somewhere about that, sorry for confusing you.
EDIT: for grammar and to be less harsh
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Post by: Agamemnon2
I've been crunching the numbers, and as I already field infeasibly large Ogryn squads, I see no reason not to continue to do so in the future, with 1-2 ogryns less.
I hope the "Fists only on Commissar Lords" rumor is false, that way I could get three S6 fist attacks into an Ogryn mob with the investment of a powerFist Commissar. I figured one would cost me ca. 50 pts (assuming 10 point PWs and 15 point Fists). If he's not an IC, it's reasonable enough and would kill an average 1.25 extra Marines per turn on the charge. Of course, the problem is, a five-Ogryn squad needs to lose two models before it needs to roll for Morale, and a Commissar would then execute a third one. At which point the squad is gutted.
The Primaris might be a more agreeable hanger-on, especially if his Nightshroud ability is accurately described (there are still some units in the game who dont have Ld 10). The Enginseer is another option, he'd boost the squad Ld by a point and would add a power weapon + servo arm.
Failing all this, it's back to my other standby, the cheapo Inquisitor. Since it doesnt look like Elite slots are very contested anymore, I can easily sneak in a 20-pointer and give him enough stuff to have some fun. If there's a chance to have a free HQ slot, the eternal favorite, Canoness-with-a-Book is only 50 points.
None of these are particularly good for their points, but, and this is the important bit, they might be good enough for me to have a good time playing with.
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Post by: focusedfire
@ Dave, What you call pointing out flaws, others would consider an overly negative attitude. I've never enjoyed a game against someone with the "This S** ks attitude." If thats the attitude then why are you playing? His own words might not be what he meant in this case but its just as valid to call someone on an overabundance of negativity as it is to point out flaws in the system. Thing is if your going to point out flaws, then do so instead of just saying this s** ks over and over. Edit for dropped letters and to add @ Ph34r, No problem Ph34r. BTW, my offers to buy up the armies is just my way of trying to keep things light. Did you catch where I cuaght John on a technicality and locked him into a deal. Now I would never try to enforce such a deal. It's just a game of verbal manuvering to me. I sincerely hope that your wrong on this dex and end up with an army thats both fun and competitive to play.
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Post by: ph34r
Agamemnon2 wrote:The Primaris might be a more agreeable hanger-on, especially if his Nightshroud ability is accurately described. The Enginseer is another option, he'd boost the squad Ld by a point and would add a power weapon + servo arm.
The Primaris battle psyker sounds really cool, If I can manage to drop some more infantry I will take a Primaris modeled as a Magos Electro Priest of the AdMech. EDIT: focusedfire, I hope that in the end you can see that I have a reason for my bitterness. On top of that, these rumors have turned out to be rather grim from my perspective. I hope that the guard codex will be a good one, I'm sure no guard player would hope otherwise.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Actually, it looks like the Canoness with a bolt pistol and Blessed weapon might be the top dog in the "Ultimate Ogryn Squad Leader!" contest. For 76 points, you get five S5 power weapon attacks, rerolling misses. 2.5 dead marines per turn on the charge, AND she gives the squad Ld10.
Hm, 5 Ogryns on average kill 2.9 Marines on the charge, notwithstanding the ripper gun barrage (which adds 1.67 Marine casualties), so that's 5.4 statistical averagemarines dead on the charge. Not very impressive for 261 points, it must be said, but better than it could be.
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Post by: focusedfire
JohnHwangDD wrote:focusedfire wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:focusedfire wrote:I'll buy your storm troopers, chimeras, &LRBT ....negotiations start at .10 cents on the dollar
Oh, please. A tenth of a penny per dollar?
Hell, I'll pay tenfold what you offer: a whole penny per dollar and just resell everything at 10 cents on the dollar.
OK, ten cents on the dollar then. You stated the price and I accept your offer in written contract form.
Where are my Storm troopers and LRBTs?
I think you need to learn to read more carefully.
I was counter-bidding with a higher offer to pay 1.0% instead of 0.1%, and re-sell at 10%.
Now that you have formally accepted my offer, I believe it's incumbent upon you to send your stuff to me.
As I have a much higher post count, I believe standard convention is that you will send first.
I think the easiest thing would be for you to send 9% to me (I pay you 1%, you pay me 10%) and save yourself the shipping charges and delay.
Nice try but actually, My response clearly stated that I was accepting your offer to sell at 10 cents on the dollar, to which is why I referenced it first. Then after referencing your written offer to sell such storms and LRBT tanks that you find at a good price, I accepted your proposed online seeling price.
I will be awaiting your PM as to the exact retail value of your storm troopers and LRBT that you currently have in stock. At which time we will then determine the 10% of retail that you agreed to accept.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Agamemnon2 wrote:I hope the "Fists only on Commissar Lords" rumor is false
I had not heard that rumour, but consider that there are already two existing Commissar models with Power Fists. Are they about to invalidate two models, one that's quite new? And when you speak of that rumour, I assume you mean that the only fist a Commissar can get is on Commissar Lord, not fists in the whole army, because we know the fist is part of the Command Squad sprue.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
You indeed deciphered my meaning correctly. Alas, we don't know enough at this juncture. It appears that the IG characters have their work cut out for them if they want to beat inquisitorial allies in the effectiveness race, though. For example, I'm pretty sure that no matter how good the Commissar Lord is, I'm going to get better mileage from my hypothetical Canoness there.
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Post by: focusedfire
@Ph34r,
I mostly play Tau and Eldar, so I know about getting hit with the nerfcannon. The removal of effective units everytime a new book comes out.
I just don't let it get to me. If it really did I'd probably stop playing as to the fact that I'm just getting to long in the tooth for the constant blood pressure spike to be good for me.
I think the reason it doesn't get to me is that if I start winning all the time I lose interest. Its for that same reason that I like it when opposing armies get really good codices. Good not as in power-gamer, but good as in it allows for a variety of builds and tactics. Things that will help keep the game fresh and keep me guessing with very challenging matches.
It is for this reason and for my friends who play IG that I truly hope that the new Guard codex will be the same tier as the Orks, SMs, and other top armies.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Sadly Aggy I think that you are right about that. Oh well. I like Inquisitorial allies... even if they're not that great.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
I'm okay with allies, really. I even use paired Daemonhosts sometimes when I want an unpredictable element with a potential, however narrow, to kick ass and take names.
Amusingly, a five-man GKT squad costs 245 points. Which one do you think will do more to frell up my opponent's plans?
Edit: For those of you playing the home game, the answer is Grey Knight Terminators, by a margin of about 3 more dead Marines, and they suffer only 0,27 wounds in return, as opposed to 1.111 (IIRC) the Ogryns took.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Oh wow. When GK Termies are the cheaper alternative, you know something's wrong...
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
I suppose a comparison against someone with a lower save, like Orks, would narrow that margin down, but the numbers involved become time-consuming and tedious to calculate, plus there start to be physical constraints, such as how many models get to strike back.
I should try to do a comparison without the Canoness, just 260pts worth of Ogryn, though.
EDIT: A quick scribble tells me that 255pts' worth of pure Ogryns (7, including Bone, assuming the Bone is counted in the minimum cost of 115pt) would do 2.3 + 4.02 wounds, and take 2.2 in return. Enough to win the combat, but you'd still be left with ca. 4 marines in the target squad who could use Combat Tactics to auto-break and get into a better position for their next turn, leaving the Ogryns open for retaliatory fire. The target squad would certainly be crippled, and to be fair, the GKT's would be no better off on their next turn, either, as they'd massacre those 10 averagemarines instead.
I'm aware these numbers arent adding up very well, if you saw my horribly scribbled notes, you'd understand why. They are indicative, though.
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Post by: BrookM
The cost of a unit is balanced internally, not externally by looking at other army lists.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
BrookM wrote:The cost of a unit is balanced internally, not externally by looking at other army lists.
That's normally the case, and I wouldn't ever do this calculation for, say, Assault Terminators or Harlequins, but I can take GKTs as allies in my IG army just fine, they directly compete with Ogryns for an Elites slot.
EDIT: Also, I'm pretty sure I'll be able to do this same sort of calculation against Rough Riders soon, and the results will be just as heartbreaking.
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Post by: Vaktathi
BrookM wrote:The cost of a unit is balanced internally, not externally by looking at other army lists.
That's a poor method of doing it, both factors need to be taken into account. An army shouldn't be designed to be balanced against itself, it should be designed so that all of its components can be efficiently used against opposing lists and be competitive with every other choice.
It's pretty obvious that with every codex and army book, there are at least a couple, often more, unit choices that fail these criteria.
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Post by: Kungfuhustler
Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm pretty sure I'll be able to do this same sort of calculation against Rough Riders soon, and the results will be just as heartbreaking.
I really hope not. Rough riders make me very happy. they are the only valid counter-charge (I.E. not just screen with fodder) I have come across and their (sadly vanishing) ability to outflank with the light infanty doctrine was priceless. Sure, my rough riders look deceptively like Saurus riding on Cold Ones... It's advanced stealth technology they use to look like the local, um, lizardfolk?. GW doesn't seem to understand that no matter how good a model works in the game they will never sell them if they are stupid, ugly, cater to a non-standard and overly priced variant army and look like pancho vila.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
To be fair, even if the Ogryns hadn't gotten more expensive, they still would not be able to match the GKTs' anti-MEQ potential. A maximum squad of 10 ogryns with one Bonehead will do 8.99 wounds in shooting plus CC.
Power weapons for everyone in a squad is just that damn good.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Kungfuhustler wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm pretty sure I'll be able to do this same sort of calculation against Rough Riders soon, and the results will be just as heartbreaking.
I really hope not. Rough riders make me very happy. they are the only valid counter-charge (I.E. not just screen with fodder) I have come across and their (sadly vanishing) ability to outflank with the light infanty doctrine was priceless. Sure, my rough riders look deceptively like Saurus riding on Cold Ones... It's advanced stealth technology they use to look like the local, um, lizardfolk?. GW doesn't seem to understand that no matter how good a model works in the game they will never sell them if they are stupid, ugly, cater to a non-standard and overly priced variant army and look like pancho vila.
Uh, you misunderstood me. Rough Riders kick Ogryns' asses. I expect that as soon as their new stats are solidified, I'll be able to do a comparison of them vs. a comparable squad of Ogryns, and find the same still applies. Unless they've taken away Hunting Lances, of course.
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Post by: BrookM
Hunting Lances are still the same old one-shot wonders, only big change to RR's is that they now have both a pistol and ccw to fall back on instead of just one of the two.
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Post by: Kungfuhustler
***From BoLs***
Heavy Support:
Lemas Russ Squadron
Composition:vehicle squadron composed of 1-3 Leman Russ or Leman Russ Demolishers in any combination.
***
No executioner or punisher squadrons, go figure. I am once again filled with sadness and loathing.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Kungfuhustler wrote:
***From BoLs***
Heavy Support:
Lemas Russ Squadron
Composition:vehicle squadron composed of 1-3 Leman Russ or Leman Russ Demolishers in any combination.
***
No executioner or punisher squadrons, go figure. I am once again filled with sadness and loathing.
If you'd notice on there, it states that the same options apply to the other LR's, and lists the Manticore and Deathstrike as the only non-squadronable vehicles.
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Post by: Kungfuhustler
holy crap! I'm happy again! Happy, sad, happy, sad, I can't take it anymore! This is BAT COUNTRY
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Post by: Apone
WE CAN'T STOP HERE! Have to wait till May!
But yeah the new info on BoLs is good.
But LR got more expensive? Isn't that counter productive if you can now take them in squads?
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Post by: Vaktathi
To be fair, almost everything except the Exterminator and basic Russ are going to be too expensive to field in squadrons unless playing 2500-3000pts games, at which point you might as well throw in a baneblade, take everything as single tanks instead of squadrons and play Apocalypse.
A kitted Executioner is going to run ~250ish. for 3 squads of 2, that's 1500pts.
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Post by: Apone
Holy Crap! That's a lot.
Maybe they aren't releasing models for all these new variants then if that's the points cost!
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Post by: Dexy
Way this thread went up 4 pages when I was asleep I thought someone might have posted pics. Imagine my surprise when I just saw pages of text!
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Post by: Kungfuhustler
If the tank commander allows you to split fire AND makes the tank BS4 my list is almost complete. I have high hopes for at least the tanks now. My all storm trooper army builds are going to get played to death over the next month and a half. Gotta send em' out in style! They have a few more chimera rides left in them and they will kill many a marine before the new dex comes out. It's kinda funny to me that everyone is analyzing the new guard vs. marines when marines seem to be the only army I auto-win against. Seriously, Deathwing, Ravenwing, drop-pod-spam it dosen't really matter. Guard kill marines. Hell, I even killed sisters down to a cannoness and heavy flamer earlier today.
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Post by: aka_mythos
Vaktathi wrote:Kungfuhustler wrote:
***From BoLs***
Heavy Support:
Lemas Russ Squadron
Composition:vehicle squadron composed of 1-3 Leman Russ or Leman Russ Demolishers in any combination.
***
No executioner or punisher squadrons, go figure. I am once again filled with sadness and loathing.
If you'd notice on there, it states that the same options apply to the other LR's, and lists the Manticore and Deathstrike as the only non-squadronable vehicles.
I took that to mean the the different sponson options and no the squadron-ability. I'm not going to be surprised if we end up seeing a limit on the number of variants that can be taken, like a "one per squadron maybe upgraded," sort of thing. I realize nothing to that effects been said, but I think its a bit much to have as many variants and to see as many variants fielded over what is suppose to be the basic tank.
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Post by: Kungfuhustler
Vaktathi wrote:A kitted Executioner is going to run ~250ish. for 3 squads of 2, that's 1500pts.
Yep. And I'm going to run a squad of 3 if I can split fire.
Somebody said somthing about pictures... This is the Punisher turret I converted out of plasticard tubing earlier tonight. My 1st plasticard work.
1
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I'll probably make mine from the Stormlord kit.
Thanks to my Vanquishers, Exterminator and Annihilator I have 6 spare Russ turrets. I can make two Eradicators, two Punishers, and then just make the other two "Chaos-y" for Traitor Russes.
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Post by: Scottywan82
I like that punisher a LOT more! Looks wicked!
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Post by: Lord Solar Plexus
Augustus wrote:
Really? Weaknesses like impotency in close combat, poor ability to take objectives, low staying power, signifcant morale issues all around and tank vulnerability to assault, complete KP absurdity?
Really. Impotency in CC has not been a drastic weakness ever since 5th edition was introduced. Your opponent charges a squad, kills it and dies to close-range firepower. In fact, Guard should not be potent in CC, or rather, not on a par with traditionally dedicated assault armies. What the new codex does give us is two very capable counter-assault units in the form of RR and Ogryns (despite their cost). A squad of six can deal with the equivalent point cost in Berzerkers, or even a full Ork mob, provided it gets the charge (which, as a counter-assault unit, they should), and they're even decent against assault termis. If that is not powerful enough for you, I'm not sure what ever will be.
The poor ability to take objectives has simply evaporated due to cheaper Chimeras that are accessible for nearly everyone without having to change your FOC drastically, and two types of fast skimmers that can deliver their cargo with pin-point accuracy. Even ST's with their plentiful methods of entering play can contend far away objectives or contribute to killing troops hiding there. Add to that cheaper troops and you have a lot of possibilities.
Low staying power I'm afraid I do not see, barring CC where you want your squads to run anyways (and now you can even make wonderful tarpits if you're so inclined). Line squads can receive a 2+ cover save when under fire. Multiple AV 14 certainly do not suffer from low staying power.
Morale has simply not been an issue for yonks. In fact, IG was among the top armies concerning morale, what with officers, standards, ID and so on. With cheaper officers and commissars and Vet sergeants standard in line squads, I don't see a huge problem here even if the odd squad legs it from time to time.
KP's have also been addressed. We knew it would not be perfect unless they reintroduced VP's. It is however a decent workaround.
Yes, tanks are susceptible to assault. Did you expect them to somehow be resilient in assault?
Shep wrote:
Charge my 50 point squad, win, get rapid fired, charge my 50 point squad, win get rapid fired.
Bad idea. You've just lost 2:1. It does not matter what you kill in terms of point costs.
Use 55 point chimeras to score.
Vehicles don't score.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Have you been reading this thread mythos? There are people who can't field their current army under the new points values, let alone any of the new stuff. It's not about 'wanting it all', it's about wanting something, but being unable to do it because the costs have gone up so much
Yes, this codex is a complete shake-up. So was Orks, so was Daemons, so was the last IG codex (Griffons?). That, I'm afraid, is how things work: Current lists often do not work anymore when a new publication hits the shelves. It's fully possible to include Ogryns, or six Russes, or loads of INF, or Valks. It isn't possible to include it all at once. This notwithstanding, I do understand why some people are bitter.
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Post by: kadun
BrookM wrote:The cost of a unit is balanced internally, not externally by looking at other army lists.
So they can make the Hellhound 400 points as long as the Leman Russ is 500 and a single Guardsman is 20? Or how about making the Hellhound 20 points, Leman Russ 30, and Guardsman 1? Internal Balance with no regard for other armies FTW.
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Post by: foil7102
Hey! I just realized why they increased the cost of the hellhound while reducing its range. Since it now has to drive so close to the enemy to fire. Once it is destroyed by the now in range melta guns or charging power fist it automatically grants a 4+ cover save for my opponent! Isnt that great. This new added utility really justifies the points!
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Post by: warboss
kadun wrote:BrookM wrote:The cost of a unit is balanced internally, not externally by looking at other army lists.
So they can make the Hellhound 400 points as long as the Leman Russ is 500 and a single Guardsman is 20? Or how about making the Hellhound 20 points, Leman Russ 30, and Guardsman 1? Internal Balance with no regard for other armies FTW.
nice retort! although, personally, i think the russ (with the new lumbering behemoth rule) is worth around 32 points. the internal balance "theory" was created by inadequate game designers who just want an excuse as to why their codexes are either completely overpowered or useless and propagated by GW sycophants who praise everything they do without any critical thought. it would only be true if you played in a campaign where only 1 army was allowed. overall, i think this codex is an improvement over the last but it's certainly not without a few WTF?? units/rules. i'll reserve my final judgement until i have an actual copy in my hands and a few games under my belt.
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Post by: ThirdUltra
focusedfire wrote:@ Third,
Squadrons already ignore stunned results as per the BRB.
Ahh....I stand corrected sir; you are right.
Well, good question then on what this tank squadron commander ability will be.....hopefully something useful, like the split-fire option you mentioned.
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Post by: Necros
So, are these tank / valk squadrons gonna be like where they all have to stick together and fire at the same targets, like a unit? So if you have 3 basilisks they all have to shoot at the same target? Or will it be more like a zoanthrope kinda thing where 3 count as 1 choice but you can do whatever ya want with em?
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Post by: BrookM
kadun wrote:BrookM wrote:The cost of a unit is balanced internally, not externally by looking at other army lists.
So they can make the Hellhound 400 points as long as the Leman Russ is 500 and a single Guardsman is 20? Or how about making the Hellhound 20 points, Leman Russ 30, and Guardsman 1? Internal Balance with no regard for other armies FTW.
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Post by: warboss
brookm, what is that picture? it looks like a fat, bald, blind guy holding a giant ham???!??
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Post by: ubermosher
Points aside... I am actually looking forward to playing a game with a Commissar Lord leading an Ogryn squad. Maybe with a Primaris Psyker to make it harder for my Tau friends to shoot up the squad.
Efficient? Probably not. Fun? Oh yeah.
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Post by: Shep
Lord Solar Plexus wrote:
shep wrote:
Use 55 point chimeras to score.
Vehicles don't score.
Why is it that any time someone uses short hand to describe how to move a scoring unit to an objective, some dude rolls in and thinks he meant that the vehicle itself is scoring.
Guys, when people say 'score with x transport' they mean use the range from the hull to measure your scoring distance from a scoring unit inside.
But for everyone's benefit I'll use "score by embarking a unit of troops that isn't a swarm and that doesn't have a special rule that prohibits them from being a scoring unit into a transport. then drive the transport over to the objective."
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Post by: George Spiggott
Because otherwise they'd have to point out that your little scoring trick suddenly costs much more than the stated 55 points.
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Post by: Hulksmash
I personally don't see a list that was invalidated by the new codex. The sole exception being the drop trooper list. All the mechanized grenadier lists actually got cheaper (assuming 110pts for a carapaced vet squad) w/an extra special weapon and a heavy weapon option. Oh and their transports dropped by 30 points so if you give the extra weapons it actually a wash from where it used to be. How does that invalidate "ST" list?
Infantry armies got a major shaving if you always included the vet. it's at 16 points cheaper than it used to be per squad, 26 if you took frags. LC and Plasma actually wash on point cost so I don't see why this is huge. Heavy Weapon squads got cheaper (albiet they are more vulnerable to ST6 weapons than before). And more stuff got moved into scoring units.
Lemans went up 15 points if you equipped them w/heavy bolter sponsons like before. so for 15pts I get +1 side armor (huge) and if i stand still I get 9 more shots to go with that battle cannon. I say hell yes, may even add a heavy stubber to amuse myself.
Ogryns are more expensive but i'll hold out till I see their full entry. I will say that at the moment I can't see myself fielding them but that could change based on the final review of the codex. ST's are the same thing. I've got ideas on how I would use them but i'll need to really read the whole codex to see if any of them pan out.
Sorry if all of this got posted already but I wanted to summarize my feelings on the rumors of the new codex. I'm looking forward to it. Like any treadhead or long time IG player it looks like it's going to be fun. I think like every codex we'll get units that don't work well in competative games but there are a lot of fun units too for afternoon drinking games so so far i'm really enjoying the rumors of the new codex
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Post by: Ozymandias
Polonius wrote:Death By Monkeys wrote:Polonius wrote:I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but that's just it: we're not assuming people looking on the bright side are fanbois.
You may not, but H.B.M.C. certainly implied that he does:
H.B.M.C. wrote:Then you can't comprehend the English language. We're not ignoring the good things, we're just discussing (as Polonius said) the bad parts, and it seems that those of us who don't instantly lap up whatever GW has to offer are branded as nerdraging whiners whereas those who choose to simply ignore the bad things and pretend they don't exist (like you Ozzy) are normal, and not fanboyish in the slightest.
He's saying that if Ozy calls HBMC a hater, but does not call himself a fanboi, it's a double standard. HBMC isn't calling either party either label. He's implying that if he's a Hater, than by logic Ozy would than be a fanboi, but I think that again HBMC has allowed attitude to slightly cloud content. I'm assuming, and I could be wrong, is that both view points are totally valid and not due to some moral failing.
Pointing out the existence of a possible double standard does not, in itself, create that double standard.
The double standard I see is that if I mention a list of positives without going into the negatives, I am a fanboi but it's somehow morally ok for you and HBMC to rail against the negatives without mentioning the positives and not be called a hater. Frankly I was really tired of reading through several pages of whining and it seemed every time someone mentioned the positives someone lashed out or increased whining level.
H.B.M.C. wrote:DD makes a good point.
I own 30 Russes for feth's sake!!! I've got 400 infantry, a further 25 other Guard vehicles, every Cadian model ever made and soon will have 10 Super-Heavies. Of course I'm a damned Guard fanboi. The presence of this Codex isn't going to stop me from using them or lessen them in my eyes.
But the Codex will be flawed. And discussing those flaws isn't a bad thing.
Death By Monkeys - I'm not implying that those who like the Codex are fanboys. I'm implying that those that ignore the bad things to the point where they pretend they don't exist, or those that think we should be somehow greatful for GW for this Codex, they're the sycophantic loons.
Neither I nor DBM ever said ignore the bad things, stop with the fallacious arguments please. After God knows how many pages of you and a few others whining about the negatives I'd had enough. I know you think there are some positives in this codex, but the way you jump to the negatives so quickly and so vehemently and then call everyone who doesn't share your view a sycophant ass-kisser (including Toreador who hasn't been here for months) was really, really off putting. I know you have strong feelings for this codex but god-damn dude, chill a little bit, you haven't even seen the codex yet or played ANY games with it.
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Post by: Reecius
Alrighty, I am about to officially eat my overly optimistic words. The points listed over at BoLS are dog gak and I hope they are inaccurate.
I am not goint ot flip out, but I am not happy.
All the tanks appear to be horribly overpriced if these rumors are true, apart from the chimera.
So, I am going to hang tight but I am getting my bib so that I can properly eat crow if this is true. These tanks will cost nearly as much as a landraider but be far less effective if everything we see now turns out to be true.
I feel the bile rising, but I am going to hold on to hope here.
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Post by: Augustus
Oh BoLs!
11
Post by: ph34r
focusedfire wrote:I mostly play Tau and Eldar, so I know about getting hit with the nerfcannon. The removal of effective units everytime a new book comes out.
Everyone loses good units every time a new book comes out. Not everyone has their entire codex disappear ( latd) or lose all their special rules ( IW, and the other traitor legions).
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Post by: focusedfire
You forgot Craftworld Eldar. So yeah, I know exactly where your coming from but refuse to let it get to me. I instead look ast it a a new challenge.
It's good for me. Keeps me from getting to set in my ways and helps to improve the mental agility.
Edit for added sentence
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Post by: BoxANT
Sponsons, if we can move and fire *everything* then imo they are worth the point hike... However, if you can only fire 1 extra weapon on the move, then they're not worth it imo. "Lumbering Behemoth" wouldn't be that "Lumbering" if have to stand still
If Ogryns actually have Stubborn, then I am not certain they need a Commissar. As for any other character to give them, I think we need to see the rules on Priests, they could be worth it.
Ogryns don't need to be super killy (hopefully RR will be closer to that...), they just need to not die so fast. GTK are tough and kill MEQ better, but against enemy units with powerweapons (ie BloodCrushers, characters, ect) they will drop MUCH faster than Ogryns.
I am not looking forward to loosing a whole HW squad to one multilaser But at least the amount of S6+ multishot weapons is rare... oh wait, assault cannons 
Have we even heard if units besides Infantry Squads and Command Squads can take Commissars (with out a Lord)? I really hope I don't need a Lord to give a unit of Conscripts a Commissar.
At least Hellhounds will be able to move 12", flame on, and then be only hit on a 6+ in melee. But yeah, being with in striking distance of Meltaguns is going to really put a damper on things.
Oh well, I am still looking forward to making some lists
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Post by: ph34r
focusedfire wrote:You forgot Craftworld Eldar. So yeah, I know exactly where your coming from but refuse to let it get to me. I instead look ast it a a new challenge.
It's good for me. Keeps me from getting to set in my ways and helps to improve the mental agility.
Edit for added sentence
Your repeated declaration of treating stuff a "challenge" and way to "improve the mental agility" is not relevant to the topic, not helpful to the discussion, and a waste of a post. I like my armies to have rules, you like challenges. Great for you. If you knew "exactly" where I'm coming from then you would have played, say, Squats and Iron Hands SM with all the unique options taken advantage of. Unless you ran a full court of the young king or some other fringe craft world eldar thing you can still take your army. I did not "forget" about it. The CSM legions lost special rules, wargear, squad organization, and their entire existence. And LatD just aren't any more.
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Post by: focusedfire
Bel-Tain let you take aspect warriors as troops. Hows that for a fringe army that no longer exists.
But hey, I'm trying to be nice and you want to get snarky. Good for you, I leave you to wallow in your grief.
Have a nice day
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Post by: Necros
I dunno...... are we allowed to say fire a battlecannon plus other weapons? or just non-ordinance turret guns? if we can fire ordinance weapons plus other stuff, that's a definitely bonus and worth the points IMO.
But... I think the whole idea of raising the points while allowing squadrons of everything is to allow people to do armored company style lists, but not encourage it. instead they make men cheaper so you'll buy more of them, and they make the valk so great that you really want them. so it breaks down like this..
new army men models = less pts so you buy crapton of them
new valk = good long awaited model you can field 9!
tanks = new kit coming some day but not now, no need to make you buy a crapton till they release the new models and then add an update in WD that makes them all suddenly awesomer.
So todays new guard = men and valks, with tanks for spice
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Post by: ph34r
focusedfire wrote:Bel-Tain let you take aspect warriors as troops. Hows that for a fringe army that no longer exists.
But hey, I'm trying to be nice and you want to get snarky. Good for you, I leave you to wallow in your grief.
Have a nice day
You're right. I can just take my warsmith's servo arm as er...
better example, tank hunters and bonuses against bunkers is simply...
4 heavy support choices is just...
basilisks are still...
well surely some of the options still exist just like you said, but in a different force organization? I guess I'm not looking at the new chaos codex hard enough, because you can still take aspect warriors in the new eldar codex.
And I can just use LatD in apocalypse!
Man, now that I've seen your point of view things look so much more positive. You totally are in the exact same situation as me! I'll have a nice day, you have a nice day and not respond with some half-baked argument while you mention how nice you are or how armies not existing is a fun exercise in mental agility so this thread can get back on track.
Sponsons, if we can move and fire *everything* then imo they are worth the point hike... However, if you can only fire 1 extra weapon on the move, then they're not worth it imo. "Lumbering Behemoth" wouldn't be that "Lumbering" if have to stand still
All lumbering behemoth seems to be is the turret not counting towards the weapons you fire. Since HB aren't defensive any more, this means move and fire one gun and turret, or stand still and fire everything. Strangely the biggest impact that this rule has is not when the tank is lumbering along, but rather when it is just sitting still.
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Post by: focusedfire
@Ph34r,
And there is no longer any such thing as storm guardian, Solitaires, and the Crystal Targeting matrix.
Tau got reemed by by the nerf cannon in 5th ed.
Yet I'm still positive and can look and discuss both the negatives and positives without it making me.....like you.
On-topic,
I agree that the Lumbering Behemoth will have more impact when standing still, but only if your buying those sponsons that evreyone claims are too expensive.
Personally, I feel a battlecannon and hull mounted lascannon will be enough.(Thats almost an effective doubling of fire power)
I'm willing to bet that tourny builds will revolve around just that and if your going to spend points it will be in the command tank.
What would such a squadron cost then?
Could somebody repost the rumored costs for the vehicles again?
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Post by: aka_mythos
I remember when word first broke on the Punisher, everyone was "thats broken," and I said "wait for the points" and now its suddenly overpriced.
A Punisher, with heavy bolter sponsons is 200pts. 4/5th a land raider. I think it is 4/5ths the effectiveness of a land raider. You can line item add or subtract cost, but it all comes down to relative effectiveness and not abstracted values. This vehicle probably should have been more like 190 upgraded, but I'm not going to argue or cry foul over 5% because I know it'll be fun to try out.
The executioner with 5 plasma cannon shots comes in at 230pts. Only an 8% difference from a land raider. I definitely see this unit killing more than a land raider even if it doesn't have every possible bell and whistle.
I know this is going to be an objectionable position but 90% the when a unit is a no brainer, it usually means the units undercosted. If you gave a Leman Russ all the advantages this version has, but kept its price the same, it would be beyond a no brainer its a steal. I don't want cheese in my list, even if its just a sprinkling of Parmesan. I'm going to field a Punisher and an Executioner because irregardless of the cluttered arguments I believe they can make back their cost if I'm smart about how I use them.
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Post by: Polonius
Ozymandias wrote:
The double standard I see is that if I mention a list of positives without going into the negatives, I am a fanboi but it's somehow morally ok for you and HBMC to rail against the negatives without mentioning the positives and not be called a hater. Frankly I was really tired of reading through several pages of whining and it seemed every time someone mentioned the positives someone lashed out or increased whining level.
C'mon Ozy, don't join the ranks of people that enjoy misreading. Yes, it's a double stanard if you're a fanboi and we're not haters. Too bad nobody said that. I also wouldn't really consider any of our comments "rail against the negatives".
Neither I nor DBM ever said ignore the bad things, stop with the fallacious arguments please. After God knows how many pages of you and a few others whining about the negatives I'd had enough. I know you think there are some positives in this codex, but the way you jump to the negatives so quickly and so vehemently and then call everyone who doesn't share your view a sycophant ass-kisser (including Toreador who hasn't been here for months) was really, really off putting. I know you have strong feelings for this codex but god-damn dude, chill a little bit, you haven't even seen the codex yet or played ANY games with it.
When did anybody here actually call anybody a fanboi, a sycophant, or an ass kisser? If I missed them, point it out, but I think your seeing them when they don't really exist, or were used only after we get yet another lecture on not being negative.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
ubermosher wrote:Points aside... I am actually looking forward to playing a game with a Commissar Lord leading an Ogryn squad. Maybe with a Primaris Psyker to make it harder for my Tau friends to shoot up the squad.
Efficient? Probably not. Fun? Oh yeah.
I can see myself doing that as well. It depends what abilities the Commissar Lord bestows on the army as a whole, as opposed to being a Fearless Ld10 character who probably makes his squad fearless too.
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Post by: Shep
ph34r wrote:
You're right. I can just take my warsmith's servo arm as er...
Completely off-topic, but i feel compelled to suggest this. It might not have crossed your mind, and I'm honestly just looking for a way to make you a bit happier.
It is perfectly legal under the GWGT rules for you to use the loyalist space marine rules to represent your iron warriors. You could use a master of the forge to represent your warsmith, and you can even do fun conversions and use thunderfire cannons and whatnot.
It might not be what you want to do, but its there for you if you want it.
And here is a question that will certainly get me in a lot of trouble, even if it seems quite innocuous.
Of all of the people that are absolutely convinced that the new IG book is garbage, how many are avid tourney players?
That question is not loaded with implications. it is a genuine query as I am really curious about the answer. it seems like some of the more optimistic people participating in the thread are names I recognize from tourneys.
1523
Post by: Saldiven
This isn't a rumor, just a change I think would make a lot of people happy.
How much more interested in the new version of the LRBT would you be if the Lumbering Behemoth rule allowed the turret weapon(s) to target a separate target from the hull weapons? Personally, I think that would be an awesome change that would make the tanks much more valuable.
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Post by: Vengis
focusedfire wrote:@Ph34r,
And there is no longer any such thing as storm guardian, Solitaires, and the Crystal Targeting matrix.
Tau got reemed by by the nerf cannon in 5th ed.
Yet I'm still positive and can look and discuss both the negatives and positives without it making me.....like you.
I love the air of moral superiority your posts carry with them. Did you have to work at that, or does it come naturally?
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Post by: Vaktathi
Hulksmash wrote:I personally don't see a list that was invalidated by the new codex. The sole exception being the drop trooper list. All the mechanized grenadier lists actually got cheaper (assuming 110pts for a carapaced vet squad) w/an extra special weapon and a heavy weapon option. Oh and their transports dropped by 30 points so if you give the extra weapons it actually a wash from where it used to be. How does that invalidate "ST" list?
The basic squads at 10 strong are 10pts more than current ST's, don't have targeters or Krak Grenades, and lose the AP5 on the weapon (granted it's not much, but it's something) compared with current ST's. Granted they can take an extra special and a heavy weapon too, but the basic squads get more expensive and lose stuff. It's also no longer a "Stormtrooper" army, it's a Veteran list. While it may seem a non-issue to some, to others it's a ticking point. I started my ST army not because I thought it was effective and amazing, but because I was in love with the idea of the Stormtrooper.
The total package if including a transport is cheaper, this is true, but the infantry themselves are, if anything, worse than before unless they have something else we just haven't heard about.
But given the cost savings and extra special weapons potential, I think it'll be fine. I know that's pretty much what I'm going to do with my ST army.
Most everything else I agree with you on, I just wish they hadn't putzed the Stormtroopers to 16pt one-shot suicide squads.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
This just in. Ogryns are not 35 points. They're 40. So says reds8n. What that boils down is a 60% increase in points, and it completely destroys any hope of having the Bonehead be an automatic upgrade. So we're looking at 50 points for a Bonehead, 40 points for an Ogryn.
As opposed to 61 points for a Brother-Captain, 46 points for a Grey Knight terminator.
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Post by: aka_mythos
Wow... ummm hopes for Ogryn are getting very thin. I'll hold in there anyways.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
I'm getting ready to cry, I really am. All I ever wanted out of the IG was being able to field Ogryns. That's all. I don't care for tanks, Valkyries, Storm Troopers or Enginseers. All I wanted was three-wound abhumans with big shotguns and a happy-go-lucky attitude. Four years ago, they were the reason I started my Penal Regiment. I own fifteen models, most of them lovingly converted from plastic Ogres, individually named and all. I even build a custom superheavy tank for them.
You bastards. You blew it up. Damn you, damn you all to hell.
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Post by: aka_mythos
For what should have been the most straight forward buff in the entire army, Ogryns seem to be getting the short end of the stick. 40pts... they better have T(5), FNP, Furious Charge, better ripperguns, 4+ sv, 3 wounds, power weapons... and maybe something else as well. There really isn't much way to justify them.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
They have T5, Furious Charge, sure, but I2 and S5, both lower than before, so FC is actually a nerf compared to what they were.
The GKT comparisons I made earlier are now even more ludicrously askew.
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Post by: aka_mythos
From warseer... reds8n wrote:Second HQ order in forces enemy unit in LOS to commander to reroll successful cover saves " target on my command" or words to that effect.
I think this could be one of the most useful orders yet. Only downside is they'll have LOS to your commander.
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Post by: Dave47
Agamemnon2 wrote:This just in. Ogryns are not 35 points. They're 40. So says reds8n.
Didn't reds8n storm out of this thread in a huff? He might be trolling us. A lot of other people have been saying 35 points (with stubborn, which reds8n didn't initially mention) so I'd like to see another source verify this before I take it as true.
But yeah, 40 points is a lot of points. I mean, that's a full squad of Guardsmen. Or a Sentinel with heavy flamer.
EDIT: Also, don't Ripper Guns still add +1 strength?
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Post by: Necros
Shep wrote:Of all of the people that are absolutely convinced that the new IG book is garbage, how many are avid tourney players?
I think everything sounds awesome so far, and I hate tourneys
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Ozymandias wrote:Neither I nor DBM ever said ignore the bad things, stop with the fallacious arguments please. After God knows how many pages of you and a few others whining about the negatives I'd had enough. I know you think there are some positives in this codex, but the way you jump to the negatives so quickly and so vehemently and then call everyone who doesn't share your view a sycophant ass-kisser (including Toreador who hasn't been here for months) was really, really off putting. I know you have strong feelings for this codex but god-damn dude, chill a little bit, you haven't even seen the codex yet or played ANY games with it.
Selective reading must be fun for you Ozy. Let me quote myself:
me wrote:I said only a page or so ago that I'm looking forward to the Codex.
me again wrote:I dunno about you guys, but even with ultra-redundant and unnecessary tanks and 16 Point Epic Fail Troopers, I'm still looking forward to this Codex.
me once again wrote:... and as I've said right from the start, like the recent Marine 'Dex, I'm really looking forward to this Codex.
How many times do I have to say it.
BYE
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Dave47 wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:This just in. Ogryns are not 35 points. They're 40. So says reds8n.
Didn't reds8n storm out of this thread in a huff? He might be trolling us. A lot of other people have been saying 35 points (with stubborn, which reds8n didn't initially mention) so I'd like to see another source verify this before I take it as true.
But yeah, 40 points is a lot of points. I mean, that's a full squad of Guardsmen. Or a Sentinel with heavy flamer.
EDIT: Also, don't Ripper Guns still add +1 strength?
That info is off Warseer, which he appears to be quite comfortable in. There's no indication that the Ripper Gun rule will stay, and it wont matter if it does. S6 vs S7 makes very little difference against most opponents. It'd make them better against the Avatar and give them a fighting chance against Wraithlords, but they'd still get shredded by everything else.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Shep wrote:Of all of the people that are absolutely convinced that the new IG book is garbage, how many are avid tourney players?
Oh good one Shep. Let's denigrate tournement players as a way of discounting the criticism levelled at the Guard Codex. I mean, if it's only those dirty tournament players who don't like it, then us virtuous paragons of the GW hobby - casual gamers - can go on and keep having fun while the tournament players huddle in their corners complaining about points cost. There's one thing at Dakka that's worse that people like me complaining all the time, and that's the morally superior self-righteous 'casual gamer mafia'. Don't fall into that trap Shep.
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Post by: reds8n
Dave47 wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:This just in. Ogryns are not 35 points. They're 40. So says reds8n.
Didn't reds8n storm out of this thread in a huff? He might be trolling us. A lot of other people have been saying 35 points (with stubborn, which reds8n didn't initially mention) so I'd like to see another source verify this before I take it as true.
But yeah, 40 points is a lot of points. I mean, that's a full squad of Guardsmen. Or a Sentinel with heavy flamer.
EDIT: Also, don't Ripper Guns still add +1 strength?
Yeah, but he's a huffy witch, you don't want to listen to him. I think he's a communist too.
No, ripper guns don't add +1S.
Yes they're stubborn.
Nork has FNP, but he's just a bodyguard.
Anyway must dash, my fething reading lessons start soon.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
How many times do I have to say it.
Well constructed criticism generally points out both flaws and features. Likes and dislikes. Professional reviews always give ups and downs. Would you want to read a movie review and have someone say they loved the film after they trashed it for five paragraphs? It sets up a confusing contradiction. You are not a bright and cheery guy with a lot of things. You tend to hit the negative areas frequently and repeatedly. You rarely if ever are so specific with things you approve of. Try adding more of that and I bet you will find that the inferred tone of your posts changes dramatically. Also I find your trollish signature cute. I'm to assume thats directed at me? You really are quite a hypocrite you know, always mashing the report button whenever you hear a rough word and actually flaming users in your signature.
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Post by: Dave47
Agamemnon2 wrote:. There's no indication that the Ripper Gun rule will stay, and it wont matter if it does. S6 vs S7 makes very little difference against most opponents. It'd make them better against the Avatar and give them a fighting chance against Wraithlords, but they'd still get shredded by everything else.
Well, it's critically important if you want to try and actually use Ogryns as a "tar pit" unit instead of a Rough Riders-esque "charge and wipeout" unit. Having S5 in subsequent rounds of combat means you'll be causing less wounds than current Ogryns. This will have a negative impact on CR.
After the first round of combat, you'll need 9 Ogryn attacks to kill a single Space Marine.
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Post by: Hollismason
-The 2-5 Infantry Squads can be marged into a single unit.
If that is true then that is pretty kick ass.
Also, I think the rumours look great. Sure the Killpoint issue is not superfixed but being able to take squadrons of tanks thats pretty awesome.
Everyone keeps mentioning OH 9 LEMAN RUSSES!!!
How about the fact you can merge squads and those squads can have h. weapons.
The codex looks fantastic and copnsidering the drop in points for basic guards men seems pretty great.
75 Point Griffons
In a Squad of 3 1 vp.
2 Leman Russes 1vp
I think the codex looks fantastic.
I wonder fi you can transport Ogryns in Valkyries.
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Post by: CommissarKhaine
H.B.M.C. wrote:Shep wrote:Of all of the people that are absolutely convinced that the new IG book is garbage, how many are avid tourney players?
Oh good one Shep. Let's denigrate tournement players as a way of discounting the criticism levelled at the Guard Codex. I mean, if it's only those dirty tournament players who don't like it, then us virtuous paragons of the GW hobby - casual gamers - can go on and keep having fun while the tournament players huddle in their corners complaining about points cost.
There's one thing at Dakka that's worse that people like me complaining all the time, and that's the morally superior self-righteous 'casual gamer mafia'. Don't fall into that trap Shep.
I'm a tourney player (with guard, yes, I use my Night Lords -excuse me, black legion painted blue- if I want to play the boring way); and I like the rumours I've been hearing so far. If I'm correct points often change quite late in the process, so we'll have to see. 40 points for ogryn is pretty steep, but if, like reds8n says (thanks for the rumours btw) they also have stubborn... Out of interest: could a mth specialist run the number on an Ogryn squad vs anything without a ridiculous armour save in cc such as orks or genestealers?
C: CSM is boring and killed of lots of cool fluff, and that's what bugs me the most about it. With IG, I don't have that feeling (yet), I genuinely believe you'll have lots of interesting options.
And besides H.B.M.C. , I think Shep meant it the other way around, saying tourney players seemed more optimistic...
As much as I respect His Buxom's Majesty's Commissar's opinion on IG, I do feel he's a bit pessimistic here .
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Dave47 wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:. There's no indication that the Ripper Gun rule will stay, and it wont matter if it does. S6 vs S7 makes very little difference against most opponents. It'd make them better against the Avatar and give them a fighting chance against Wraithlords, but they'd still get shredded by everything else.
Well, it's critically important if you want to try and actually use Ogryns as a "tar pit" unit instead of a Rough Riders-esque "charge and wipeout" unit. Having S5 in subsequent rounds of combat means you'll be causing less wounds than current Ogryns. This will have a negative impact on CR. After the first round of combat, you'll need 9 Ogryn attacks to kill a single Space Marine.
At this point it doesn't matter. Who in their right mind would want to use a 250-point speedbump? Ogryns are dead. Mine will never see the table again after April 30th. They'll join my IG Landspeeder and Knights Paladin on the Oblivion Shelf. This rumor season has been a rollercoaster for me. When the reference sheet leaked, everything looked great and rife with possibilities, but every single rumor since then has revealed some new inflated points cost, or new limitation. The edifice of an awesome new future has crumbled piece by piece until for me there's nothing at all left. I can't even muster the excitement to build a Deathstrike.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Dave47 wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:. There's no indication that the Ripper Gun rule will stay, and it wont matter if it does. S6 vs S7 makes very little difference against most opponents. It'd make them better against the Avatar and give them a fighting chance against Wraithlords, but they'd still get shredded by everything else.
Well, it's critically important if you want to try and actually use Ogryns as a "tar pit" unit instead of a Rough Riders-esque "charge and wipeout" unit. Having S5 in subsequent rounds of combat means you'll be causing less wounds than current Ogryns. This will have a negative impact on CR.
After the first round of combat, you'll need 9 Ogryn attacks to kill a single Space Marine.
Vs what? 36 to kill a single ogryn from the marines? If there is a way around the leadership troubles ogryn would be a very effective tie up unit for shock assault troops like genestealers or banshees and devastating against troops like basic tac marines. High toughness and wound count is fantastic against opponents whose main use it to cut through terminators. The leadership is the real issue I'm seeing in the unit, if they can be kept from breaking they could easily hold up a more devastating unit forever, or eventually even break it.
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Post by: CommissarKhaine
ShumaGorath wrote:Dave47 wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:. There's no indication that the Ripper Gun rule will stay, and it wont matter if it does. S6 vs S7 makes very little difference against most opponents. It'd make them better against the Avatar and give them a fighting chance against Wraithlords, but they'd still get shredded by everything else.
Well, it's critically important if you want to try and actually use Ogryns as a "tar pit" unit instead of a Rough Riders-esque "charge and wipeout" unit. Having S5 in subsequent rounds of combat means you'll be causing less wounds than current Ogryns. This will have a negative impact on CR.
After the first round of combat, you'll need 9 Ogryn attacks to kill a single Space Marine.
Vs what? 36 to kill a single ogryn from the marines? If there is a way around the leadership troubles ogryn would be a very effective tie up unit for shock assault troops like genestealers or banshees and devastating against troops like basic tac marines. High toughness and wound count is fantastic against opponents whose main use it to cut through terminators. The leadership is the real issue I'm seeing in the unit, if they can be kept from breaking they could easily hold up a more devastating unit forever, or eventually even break it.
+1
Besides, they only have to hold for one turn till the rough riders do their charge thingy vs the spezz murreenz or termies. Anything else will get clobbered quite badly. Before judging Ogryn, priests, commissars, and some other stuff (weapon optiosn for Ogryns) should be fully known as well... And I'd LOVE to use them vs banshees
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Post by: ChaseMacKenzie
Hollismason wrote:-The 2-5 Infantry Squads can be marged into a single unit.
If that is true then that is pretty kick ass.
Also, I think the rumours look great. Sure the Killpoint issue is not superfixed but being able to take squadrons of tanks thats pretty awesome.
Everyone keeps mentioning OH 9 LEMAN RUSSES!!!
How about the fact you can merge squads and those squads can have h. weapons.
The codex looks fantastic and copnsidering the drop in points for basic guards men seems pretty great.
75 Point Griffons
In a Squad of 3 1 vp.
2 Leman Russes 1vp
I think the codex looks fantastic.
I wonder fi you can transport Ogryns in Valkyries.
All else equal then you've merged many H weapons into one unit which can only target, ONE enemy unit.
Furthermore the dreaded 5th edition CC rules will be the bane of a massive platoon.
All else equal
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Post by: Agamemnon2
CommissarKhaine wrote:Besides, they only have to hold for one turn till the rough riders do their charge thingy vs the spezz murreenz or termies. Anything else will get clobbered quite badly. Before judging Ogryn, priests, commissars, and some other stuff (weapon optiosn for Ogryns) should be fully known as well... And I'd LOVE to use them vs banshees
Priests don't apply to Ogryns, and they don't have any weapon options at all. Confirmed by Reds8n, again, on Warseer. I've tried the whole optimism thing, but there's simply no way in Nine Hells to make them worth even 35 points, let alone 40.
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Post by: Frazzled
ShumaGorath wrote:
Also I find your trollish signature cute. I'm to assume thats directed at me? You really are quite a hypocrite you know, always mashing the report button whenever you hear a rough word and actually flaming users in your signature.
Unless you are a Mod Shuma you have no information on how many times and by whom you have been reported.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Frazzled wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:
Also I find your trollish signature cute. I'm to assume thats directed at me? You really are quite a hypocrite you know, always mashing the report button whenever you hear a rough word and actually flaming users in your signature.
Unless you are a Mod Shuma you have no information on how many times and by whom you have been reported.
Unless he's been lying every time he has a tendency to shout the word reported when he's been somehow insulted. I don't really need to have mod access to read his posts.
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Post by: Frazzled
That would not be a correct assumption Shuma.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
ShumaGorath wrote:If there is a way around the leadership troubles ogryn would be a very effective tie up unit for shock assault troops like genestealers or banshees and devastating against troops like basic tac marines.
The sheer concentrated falsehood of this statement is heavy enough to ripple all of spacetime. I've done the math, and for killing basic tac marines, genestealers or Aspect Warriors, the best Elites choice an IG army can take in the ca. 200 point range is Grey Knight Terminators. They outfight Ogryns approximately two-to-one.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Frazzled wrote:That would not be a correct assumption Shuma.
Then he probably shouldn't tell people that he does it.
221
Post by: Frazzled
What we should do and what we do is the difference between the darkness and the light though isn't it.
Back to your thread before this gets needfully esoteric.
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Post by: aka_mythos
ChaseMacKenzie wrote:
All else equal then you've merged many H weapons into one unit which can only target, ONE enemy unit.
Furthermore the dreaded 5th edition CC rules will be the bane of a massive platoon.
All else equal
I think it'll be more useful to merge two or three squads over merging five. At which point you can cluster similar weapons, autocannons or heavy bolters for example, combined fire from those is almost always better, and will almost always be shooting at similar sorts of targets as your lasguns.
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Post by: Kungfuhustler
foil7102 wrote:Hey! I just realized why they increased the cost of the hellhound while reducing its range. Since it now has to drive so close to the enemy to fire. Once it is destroyed by the now in range melta guns or charging power fist it automatically grants a 4+ cover save for my opponent! Isnt that great. This new added utility really justifies the points!
Well I for one will actually START using hellhounds because of these new rules. that frakking template never hit, ever, and it was the biggest joke in my army if I ever played with it. I can see how these little meshuggas will be very helpful. Think about this with me, think like a general for feths sake! your HELLHOUNDS ARE YOU'RE COUNTER CHARGE. think about it. you have 3 behind your lines/tank line and your opponent is starting to get close. Now, you shuffle your men/tanks about allowing them to get through and shoot forward 12". Cock them sideways and make a wall (I can visualize them flying forward in a synchronized powerslide) and unleash raw promethium all over their ugly mugs. you just created an 18" wall that can only be hit on 6's that unleashed a trillion hits and wounds.
(not really directing this at you specifically, just everyone seems to think this should be called the nerfhound all of a sudden when It actually got alot better)
ph34r wrote:
warsmith's servo arm as er...tank hunters and simply... A BUNCH OF WHINING.
You haven't had anything to contribute to this thread ( IMHO) for several posts. I understand your nerdrage, as I feel it too, but please quit whimpering like a grot all over the interwebz.
Vaktathi wrote:The basic squads at 10 strong are 10pts more than current ST's, don't have targeters or Krak Grenades, and lose the AP5 on the weapon (granted it's not much, but it's something) compared with current ST's. Granted they can take an extra special and a heavy weapon too, but the basic squads get more expensive and lose stuff. It's also no longer a "Stormtrooper" army, it's a Veteran list. While it may seem a non-issue to some, to others it's a ticking point. I started my ST army not because I thought it was effective and amazing, but because I was in love with the idea of the Stormtrooper.
Have you considered jumping gak to the Inquisition? If you really just love the stormys and the idea behing them than DH or WH would be a good idea. not to mention their chimeras have two fire points!
Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm getting ready to cry, I really am. All I ever wanted out of the IG was being able to field Ogryns. That's all. I don't care for tanks, Valkyries, Storm Troopers or Enginseers. All I wanted was three-wound abhumans with big shotguns and a happy-go-lucky attitude. Four years ago, they were the reason I started my Penal Regiment. I own fifteen models, most of them lovingly converted from plastic Ogres, individually named and all. I even build a custom superheavy tank for them.
You bastards. You blew it up. Damn you, damn you all to hell.
This makes me really sad. quit making me sad.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Agamemnon2 wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:If there is a way around the leadership troubles ogryn would be a very effective tie up unit for shock assault troops like genestealers or banshees and devastating against troops like basic tac marines.
The sheer concentrated falsehood of this statement is heavy enough to ripple all of spacetime. I've done the math, and for killing basic tac marines, genestealers or Aspect Warriors, the best Elites choice an IG army can take in the ca. 200 point range is Grey Knight Terminators. They outfight Ogryns approximately two-to-one.
I somehow doubt they outfight genestealers, banshees, daemonettes, and other shock assault troops. Since they die to banshees, daemonettes, and stealers like chumps. I would much prefer to have three t5 wounds vs one wound with a good save when I'm fighting something throwing out a dozen power weapon attacks. Ogryn excell against low volume high damage attacks and get torn down by high volume low damage attacks (banshees vs orks for example). They fill an entirely different roll than grey knights.
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Post by: foil7102
Wait so sorry 4 ogryn + 1 bone head is 210 points.....
Thats 40 guys and spare 10 points..... Am I missing something?
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Post by: Raxmei
Most of the codex looks nice. The iconic units got better and some got cheaper, most of the common accessory units are still reasonable, and there are some interesting new options.
Stormtroopers and Ogryn have always lagged, and that appears to be more true than usual in the next iteration. This doesn't affect me personally because I wasn't planning on using either unit anyway, but I sympathize with the guys who had hoped for an improvement there.
Is there any news at all about Rough Rider options? I did plan on using some of those and I'm wondering if I'll have to redo any of my modelling. In particular I want to know about options other than lances.
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Post by: Shep
H.B.M.C. wrote:Shep wrote:Of all of the people that are absolutely convinced that the new IG book is garbage, how many are avid tourney players?
Oh good one Shep. Let's denigrate tournement players as a way of discounting the criticism levelled at the Guard Codex. I mean, if it's only those dirty tournament players who don't like it, then us virtuous paragons of the GW hobby - casual gamers - can go on and keep having fun while the tournament players huddle in their corners complaining about points cost.
There's one thing at Dakka that's worse that people like me complaining all the time, and that's the morally superior self-righteous 'casual gamer mafia'. Don't fall into that trap Shep.
i totally agree with you. I was actually going the other way with that line of questioning. I definitely wouldn't call myself a casual only player. I attend one or 2 GTs a year and as many RTTs as i can get to. I play lots of apoc and play with lots of my casual friends, but I'd place myself in the tourney crowd.
I'm just curious if tourney players like myself are more inclined to like the changes or less. it seems like they are happier, because they are just looking for one, maybe two builds that can win games.
And I'm happy to say that all of the criticism that you've personally leveled at the rumors seems pretty reasonable. I don't agree with all of it, and some of it I might not believe things are quite as extensively fubarred as you do, but your thought processes have been logical and level headed. Some people are taking the role of reactionary, and those are the ones that concern me more.
I'll speak frankly about my opinions of the codex. I'm not really fanboy or nerdrage, I'm falling right in the middle, a lot like you.
ELITES They might not have made anything in the elites slot any better. Thats unfortunate, it is one of my favorite slots (generally speaking) in 40k. I would have liked to do something substantial with ogryns. i won't declare whether or not they are utterly useless, but it is plainly obvious that at their cost, you wont be seeing 20-30 of them on a table. Stormtroopers honestly seem a bit points inefficient to me as well. I won't call 'time of death' on them yet until I've played 2-3 games with a list built around them, thats just how i roll. If 10 with deep strike and meltaguns was 130, and is now 180 or 190, then its pushing a 40-50% increase in cost. Their new and better table deployment and their better ap won't yield that value I think. Strength 3 is strength 3. I look forward to playing with them however, and their cool valkyries. i don't think they are horrendously unplayable, saying that is ridiculous.
HQ This got better, some of those hq specific orders sound great. both the twin-linked and the re-roll succseful cover save orders are really good. The advisors have value, And I'm open minded about the primaris. CC equipped ICs don't interest me, but I don't imagine they would have no matter what Robin did, just not the right army for that.
TROOPS Now troops got really cool. Veterans moved to troops, with tons of mini doctrines, we get a funny and fun unit in penal legionarres, and the platoon structure got a massive buff. it gained some protectoin from KP bleed and picked up special weapon and heavy weapon squads from the hq and heavy slots, made em scoring, cheaper, and able to receive some interesting special orders. Some may lament the loss of drop troops, but I wouldn't have pity on anyone but someone who purchased elysian drop troops. Even then, it is just as easy to imagine that they parachuted in just seconds before the game started, and the valks you did buy could be carrying the second wave.
FAST ATTACK This slot got way faster, and better to boot. Armor 12 sentinels, i love that! Valkyries i just have no idea, I'm just going to get some PT with them and formulate an opinion, nothing looks totally out of whack for or against them. hellhounds picking up fast and the ability to squadron is close enough to 15 points value for me to sleep at night. Definitely still fieldable, i think they are hurt more by their competition in the wide open heavy slot than by the 13% points increase.
HEAVY SUPPORT This is whats got me excited. 2x3 russes will probably work, it might not. Thats ok, 3x2 might work, or 1x3 and a manticore and a single 5x plasma cannon executioner, maybe 3-6 bassies will be a terror or a long range wave of 3 bassies, a mid range wave of 3x griffons all with nets, and a single demolisher to go hunting/blocking. this slot has been so radically altered, opens up so many CHOICES (you don't have to squadron if you don't want to) and lumbering behemoth opens up the lascannon, makes the single HB better and makes the 3x HB better, in fact it makes each and every sponson rig worth taking, and still retains the in-game choice of whether or not to move.
So there you have it. No fanboy gushing, no nerdrage aneurism, just a little bit of disappointment coupled with a lot of excitement and optimism.
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Post by: ChaseMacKenzie
aka_mythos wrote:ChaseMacKenzie wrote:
All else equal then you've merged many H weapons into one unit which can only target, ONE enemy unit.
Furthermore the dreaded 5th edition CC rules will be the bane of a massive platoon.
All else equal
I think it'll be more useful to merge two or three squads over merging five. At which point you can cluster similar weapons, autocannons or heavy bolters for example, combined fire from those is almost always better, and will almost always be shooting at similar sorts of targets as your lasguns.
That has been my plan as I have theoryhammered my new IG list, but even then the sheer thought of losing all of that to 5th bs CC rules makes me weary.
Honestly with 6 FOC troop places, I think I can field a viable and effective list without the merging
9910
Post by: CommissarKhaine
Agamemnon2 wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:If there is a way around the leadership troubles ogryn would be a very effective tie up unit for shock assault troops like genestealers or banshees and devastating against troops like basic tac marines.
The sheer concentrated falsehood of this statement is heavy enough to ripple all of spacetime. I've done the math, and for killing basic tac marines, genestealers or Aspect Warriors, the best Elites choice an IG army can take in the ca. 200 point range is Grey Knight Terminators. They outfight Ogryns approximately two-to-one.
1) I'm hoping ogryns will have some interesting options, but we'll just have to see. I only skimmed warseer, but it looked like only the basic ogryn couldn't get upgrades; a bonehead with a power fist would seem fun in a unit... I admit things aren't looking to rosy for them, but I still think we should see the book AND play a few games before we start panicking. I sincerely hope your 15 big guys will still be playable - I only converted 5 of'em.
2) Especially banshees seem to be in trouble vs Ogryn... Most things only wound them on a 5 or even a 6, that has to count for something, right? besides, quite a few tourneys (and casual gamers as well where I play) don't allow for allies.
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Post by: Rated G
ShumaGorath wrote:Ogryn excell against low volume high damage attacks and get torn down by high volume low damage attacks (banshees vs orks for example). They fill an entirely different roll than grey knights.
We have guardsmen to soak up those low volume, high damage attacks, for much less. We don't need an overly expensive unit (ie Ogryns) to do what the basic grunt already does. What we need is something to take those high volume, low damage attacks like a champ and come back swinging. Hence, GKT.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
CommissarKhaine wrote:1) I'm hoping ogryns will have some interesting options, but we'll just have to see. I only skimmed warseer, but it looked like only the basic ogryn couldn't get upgrades; a bonehead with a power fist would seem fun in a unit... I admit things aren't looking to rosy for them, but I still think we should see the book AND play a few games before we start panicking. I sincerely hope your 15 big guys will still be playable - I only converted 5 of'em.
Reds8n was very explicit that Ogryns are exactly as crap as they appear to be. No options, no Orders, no nothing. Minimum squad is 115 for a Bonehead and two Ogryns, additional bodies 40 points each. They even break the trend by making those additional models more, not less expensive than the initial points investment.
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Post by: foil7102
Hellhound before = 24inch range, 6 inch move, 30 inch threat radius. It was oh so simple to keep the 19 inches away from the enemy, spitting fire the whole time, blocking enemy heavy bolters. They usually lasted till turn 4-5 when they were then penned in against a board edge or surrounded and they died to a fist or a melta gun, or heck double tapping necrons for that matter.
Hellhounds after = move 12, range 12, 24 inch threat range. However they will move, fire once, get fisted or meltaed and then die.
9910
Post by: CommissarKhaine
Agamemnon2 wrote:CommissarKhaine wrote:1) I'm hoping ogryns will have some interesting options, but we'll just have to see. I only skimmed warseer, but it looked like only the basic ogryn couldn't get upgrades; a bonehead with a power fist would seem fun in a unit... I admit things aren't looking to rosy for them, but I still think we should see the book AND play a few games before we start panicking. I sincerely hope your 15 big guys will still be playable - I only converted 5 of'em.
Reds8n was very explicit that Ogryns are exactly as crap as they appear to be. No options, no Orders, no nothing. Minimum squad is 115 for a Bonehead and two Ogryns, additional bodies 40 points each. They even break the trend by making those additional models more, not less expensive than the initial points investment.
I'm sorry to hear that; guess GW may have fethed them up anyway... Still, I prefer to be a misinformed pessimist so I'll reserve my final judgement for when I'm holding the book.
12077
Post by: Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar
Agamemnon2 wrote:Reds8n was very explicit that Ogryns are exactly as crap as they appear to be. No options, no Orders, no nothing. Minimum squad is 115 for a Bonehead and two Ogryns, additional bodies 40 points each. They even break the trend by making those additional models more, not less expensive than the initial points investment.
After some back and forth on Warseer, here's his latest on that:
Lord Solar Plexus wrote:Although that doesn't really count because he raised his eyebrows, so something must be awry.
He also said that Ogryns cost 40 points. Perhaps those are just the extra guys though.
reds8n wrote:My understanding was bonehead and 3 for 115, extra guys at 40 points a pop. The eyebrows thing was as i started to type I suddenly was unsure as to whether this was 3 total or 3 including, think of it as a raised 'brow in a Spock like fashion.
For legal reasons I'd like to point out that I mate more than him though. I do have a deathgrip though.
Stubborn, furious charge and "bulky"-- take up 2 transport spaces.
Nork-- the bodyguard ogryn has FNP, I wonder if that is where some of the ogryn confusion has come from.
I'll try and check and make 100% certain tomorrow.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Rated G wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:Ogryn excell against low volume high damage attacks and get torn down by high volume low damage attacks (banshees vs orks for example). They fill an entirely different roll than grey knights.
We have guardsmen to soak up those low volume, high damage attacks, for much less. We don't need an overly expensive unit (ie Ogryns) to do what the basic grunt already does. What we need is something to take those high volume, low damage attacks like a champ and come back swinging. Hence, GKT.
What the army needs and what the unit excels at are two different things, They would be pretty reasonable against daemon princes and avatars as well. The problem is the guard army wants a cureall for its weakness to high volume close combat, and thats something it will never have since its not in the spirit of the army to have it. I bet the tau would love it too, but they aren't ever going to get it. Ogryn are a cure to a problem that the guard don't have. They are a somewhat heavy damage output squad that can counterassault like champs after the rest of the line pours some fire on to their target. They are there to mop things up or hold down far off objectives.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote: After some back and forth on Warseer, here's his latest on that: reds8n wrote:My understanding was bonehead and 3 for 115, extra guys at 40 points a pop.
Stubborn, furious charge and "bulky"-- take up 2 transport spaces.
Nork-- the bodyguard ogryn has FNP, I wonder if that is where some of the ogryn confusion has come from.
I'll try and check and make 100% certain tomorrow.
That'd be completely counterintuitive. Why would Ogryns cost ca. 28 points in the initial investment, and then almost 40% more for additional men? And that's assuming that Boneheads are free. I hope he's wrong about the 40, but I don't believe he is.
3844
Post by: Dave47
Kungfuhustler wrote:Well I for one will actually START using hellhounds because of these new rules. that frakking template never hit, ever, and it was the biggest joke in my army if I ever played with it.
Hellhounds are one of the best tanks in the current IG Codex.
I suspect you may be making one "to hit" roll, and then discarding the template if you miss. Double check the rules: You should be hitting any given model 75% of the time. Against incoming hordes, you should almost always kill most of the models under the template.
Having to get close to the enemy means that they'll be close to you; they can potentially use you to get an extra charge move they couldn't otherwise get, thus hitting your lines quicker. And a single surviving melta gun will end your day. It's hard not to look at the new Hellhound as being nerfed slightly. Which honestly may be reasonable, given how good the current one is.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
ShumaGorath wrote:Then he probably shouldn't tell people that he does it.
I haven't the faintest fething idea what you're blathering about now Shummy. This thread is for discussing Guard. Get the hell out of the thread if all you want to do is discuss me you over-obsessive needlessly contrary freak.
9910
Post by: CommissarKhaine
Dave47 wrote:Kungfuhustler wrote:Well I for one will actually START using hellhounds because of these new rules. that frakking template never hit, ever, and it was the biggest joke in my army if I ever played with it.
Hellhounds are one of the best tanks in the current IG Codex.
I suspect you may be making one "to hit" roll, and then discarding the template if you miss. Double check the rules: You should be hitting any given model 75% of the time. Against incoming hordes, you should almost always kill most of the models under the template.
Having to get close to the enemy means that they'll be close to you; they can potentially use you to get an extra charge move they couldn't otherwise get, thus hitting your lines quicker. And a single surviving melta gun will end your day. It's hard not to look at the new Hellhound as being nerfed slightly. Which honestly may be reasonable, given how good the current one is.
Quite true. Same withe melta-vets: we knew they were going down since it's not what GW intended and was too good for its points. Besides, there's a reason every competitve guard army took drop troops and vets as the first two doctrines... 
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Post by: ShumaGorath
H.B.M.C. wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:Then he probably shouldn't tell people that he does it.
I haven't the faintest fething idea what you're blathering about now Shummy. This thread is for discussing Guard. Get the hell out of the thread if all you want to do is discuss me you over-obsessive needlessly contrary freak.
Your not going to report me are you?! Even in the post that started all that I posted something referential to the new rules. And I've been discussing the role of ogryns at the same time as my spat with fraz and your trollish self. Besides its not obsession when you clearly put that signature there for me. Its nice to see that I'm so important to you. I also have no doubt that you don't know what I'm talking about. I doubt you even realize how hypocritical you are most of the time.
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Post by: Shep
foil7102 wrote:Hellhound before = 24inch range, 6 inch move, 30 inch threat radius. It was oh so simple to keep the 19 inches away from the enemy, spitting fire the whole time, blocking enemy heavy bolters. They usually lasted till turn 4-5 when they were then penned in against a board edge or surrounded and they died to a fist or a melta gun, or heck double tapping necrons for that matter.
Hellhounds after = move 12, range 12, 24 inch threat range. However they will move, fire once, get fisted or meltaed and then die.
I don't think i'll take them, but here are some new strategies that their faster speed can make use of...
Turn one rather than go for the shot, move 18" to some terrain that gives you a cover save. If lined up correctly a single chimera can give a 3 hellhound unit a 4+ cover, you could even spring for the 3+ cover save if you wanted. Next turn move 12" fire your flamers.
Turn one line them up out of los behind 3x leman russes. move up a bit, or not. Your opponent will need to close with you, because you are raining ordnance down on him every turn. When he gets closer to you, reveal your Hounds and unload souffle.
Hold them in reserve, they'll be off table while your opponent is drawn in against your artillery and tanks, on the turn they show up, you can now move 12" off of the table edge, making it easier to get the right LOS angle, burning all of his assault units up. once that mission is accomplished, you can now speed them off to your opponents home objective 18" a turn, heading for a late game block that he can't counter because his meltas and fists are out of position.
They've traded range safety for a higher max speed, which considering their slot and their competition with the griffon and the cover ignoring russ tank, gives them a uniqueness that is appreciated by me. (although maybe not enough to take them )
4362
Post by: Ozymandias
Polonius wrote:
When did anybody here actually call anybody a fanboi, a sycophant, or an ass kisser? If I missed them, point it out, but I think your seeing them when they don't really exist, or were used only after we get yet another lecture on not being negative.
Ok, since you asked nicely, here's before my "lecture":
H.B.M.C. wrote:
I mean when myself, Aggy, DD and Shummy all come down on (roughly) the same side in a discussion, shouldn't that tell you something? All we need now is MIA GW sycophant Toreador to come in here claiming the end is nigh and we'll have a general Dakka consensus on the issue.
And after:
H.B.M.C. wrote:and it seems that those of us who don't instantly lap up whatever GW has to offer are branded as nerdraging whiners whereas those who choose to simply ignore the bad things and pretend they don't exist (like you Ozzy) are normal, and not fanboyish in the slightest.
emphasis mine.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Ozymandias wrote:Neither I nor DBM ever said ignore the bad things, stop with the fallacious arguments please. After God knows how many pages of you and a few others whining about the negatives I'd had enough. I know you think there are some positives in this codex, but the way you jump to the negatives so quickly and so vehemently and then call everyone who doesn't share your view a sycophant ass-kisser (including Toreador who hasn't been here for months) was really, really off putting. I know you have strong feelings for this codex but god-damn dude, chill a little bit, you haven't even seen the codex yet or played ANY games with it.
Selective reading must be fun for you Ozy. Let me quote myself:
me wrote:I said only a page or so ago that I'm looking forward to the Codex.
me again wrote:I dunno about you guys, but even with ultra-redundant and unnecessary tanks and 16 Point Epic Fail Troopers, I'm still looking forward to this Codex.
me once again wrote:... and as I've said right from the start, like the recent Marine 'Dex, I'm really looking forward to this Codex.
How many times do I have to say it.
BYE
Well those quotes were all from ONE post that you made AFTER my initial comment so... you really want me to finish or do you get it now? And I think it's hilarious that you mention selective reading on my part when you ignore this from MY POST THAT YOU QUOTED:
I know you think there are some positives in this codex
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Post by: Frazzled
We had a spat? I wish someone would tell me these things-I am the last to know...
ok ok Modquisition on:
Gentlemen, its time to remember Dakka Rule #1. Politeness is required. Further inflammatory posts after this notice will result in a review for disciplinary action.
Argue the merits and refrain from personal attacks.
Thank you,
Modquisition off:
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Post by: George Spiggott
So they pay another 10-15 points each for the additional point of Toughness and an Attack/Shot. -1 Strength unless they charge where they also gain +1 Initiative. Oh and stubborn means morale checks are always against Ld 6 or better.
6 points cheaper than Grey Knight Terminators?
4362
Post by: Ozymandias
Shep wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:Shep wrote:Of all of the people that are absolutely convinced that the new IG book is garbage, how many are avid tourney players?
Oh good one Shep. Let's denigrate tournement players as a way of discounting the criticism levelled at the Guard Codex. I mean, if it's only those dirty tournament players who don't like it, then us virtuous paragons of the GW hobby - casual gamers - can go on and keep having fun while the tournament players huddle in their corners complaining about points cost.
There's one thing at Dakka that's worse that people like me complaining all the time, and that's the morally superior self-righteous 'casual gamer mafia'. Don't fall into that trap Shep.
i totally agree with you. I was actually going the other way with that line of questioning. I definitely wouldn't call myself a casual only player. I attend one or 2 GTs a year and as many RTTs as i can get to. I play lots of apoc and play with lots of my casual friends, but I'd place myself in the tourney crowd.
I'm just curious if tourney players like myself are more inclined to like the changes or less. it seems like they are happier, because they are just looking for one, maybe two builds that can win games.
And I'm happy to say that all of the criticism that you've personally leveled at the rumors seems pretty reasonable. I don't agree with all of it, and some of it I might not believe things are quite as extensively fubarred as you do, but your thought processes have been logical and level headed. Some people are taking the role of reactionary, and those are the ones that concern me more.
I'll speak frankly about my opinions of the codex. I'm not really fanboy or nerdrage, I'm falling right in the middle, a lot like you.
ELITES They might not have made anything in the elites slot any better. Thats unfortunate, it is one of my favorite slots (generally speaking) in 40k. I would have liked to do something substantial with ogryns. i won't declare whether or not they are utterly useless, but it is plainly obvious that at their cost, you wont be seeing 20-30 of them on a table. Stormtroopers honestly seem a bit points inefficient to me as well. I won't call 'time of death' on them yet until I've played 2-3 games with a list built around them, thats just how i roll. If 10 with deep strike and meltaguns was 130, and is now 180 or 190, then its pushing a 40-50% increase in cost. Their new and better table deployment and their better ap won't yield that value I think. Strength 3 is strength 3. I look forward to playing with them however, and their cool valkyries. i don't think they are horrendously unplayable, saying that is ridiculous.
HQ This got better, some of those hq specific orders sound great. both the twin-linked and the re-roll succseful cover save orders are really good. The advisors have value, And I'm open minded about the primaris. CC equipped ICs don't interest me, but I don't imagine they would have no matter what Robin did, just not the right army for that.
TROOPS Now troops got really cool. Veterans moved to troops, with tons of mini doctrines, we get a funny and fun unit in penal legionarres, and the platoon structure got a massive buff. it gained some protectoin from KP bleed and picked up special weapon and heavy weapon squads from the hq and heavy slots, made em scoring, cheaper, and able to receive some interesting special orders. Some may lament the loss of drop troops, but I wouldn't have pity on anyone but someone who purchased elysian drop troops. Even then, it is just as easy to imagine that they parachuted in just seconds before the game started, and the valks you did buy could be carrying the second wave.
FAST ATTACK This slot got way faster, and better to boot. Armor 12 sentinels, i love that! Valkyries i just have no idea, I'm just going to get some PT with them and formulate an opinion, nothing looks totally out of whack for or against them. hellhounds picking up fast and the ability to squadron is close enough to 15 points value for me to sleep at night. Definitely still fieldable, i think they are hurt more by their competition in the wide open heavy slot than by the 13% points increase.
HEAVY SUPPORT This is whats got me excited. 2x3 russes will probably work, it might not. Thats ok, 3x2 might work, or 1x3 and a manticore and a single 5x plasma cannon executioner, maybe 3-6 bassies will be a terror or a long range wave of 3 bassies, a mid range wave of 3x griffons all with nets, and a single demolisher to go hunting/blocking. this slot has been so radically altered, opens up so many CHOICES (you don't have to squadron if you don't want to) and lumbering behemoth opens up the lascannon, makes the single HB better and makes the 3x HB better, in fact it makes each and every sponson rig worth taking, and still retains the in-game choice of whether or not to move.
So there you have it. No fanboy gushing, no nerdrage aneurism, just a little bit of disappointment coupled with a lot of excitement and optimism.
QFT and for actual analysis.
11847
Post by: Wildeyedjester
Wow. I came to dakka to see what rumors held and found this series of slandering and over emotional posts. I am saddened to see that such name calling and pointless bickering goes unchallenged and unadressed by moderators here. I would have thought that a thread labeled IG discussion in one of the more well known forums would have been just that and contain an actual discussion. I would have also hoped not to find only a series of hatred, flamings, rants about GW in general, and signature quotes that call people idiots.
Now granted, as I read through - I did find several posts that talked both about merit and possible flaws with the rumors. Those were nice - but sifting through 10+ pages (in this 2nd thread only) of hostility is too much. I will return over to 'the dudes' clean thread where things are orderly and nicely maintained.
I am sure there will be posts such as 'Move on - we don't need you here', but that will only be supporting what I am trying to point out, and is the kind of response that will inhibit future growth of your forum.
For what it is worth, I think the new codex is exciting and will be fun to play. Many things have been addressed that were severe problems before. Are they fixes? I don't know and we won't know until we play them out.
Trying to rduce kill points is key. Giving us more options with tanks and armor is awesome. Giving us even more troop options and how we field them is awesomer still. Are Ogryns and ST overpriced? Maybe so - but there is still plenty of viable options if you don't like them. If you don't like the price cost on LRT you can still take it w/ only a battlecannon and a bolter in the hull. Move around as it was before the codex, and for the extra 5 points you have the added 3 str 5 shots w/ your battle cannon. If you don't mind a sitting pill box, pay the 20 points and add an extra 6 shots.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Shep wrote:So there you have it. No fanboy gushing, no nerdrage aneurism, just a little bit of disappointment coupled with a lot of excitement and optimism.
Thanks for posting that Shep. A well thought out and perfectly reasoned post, and I agree with most of it.
As far as the Storm Trooper issue goes (and this applies to Ogryn and Commissars as well), my ire stems from the fact that these units haven't been worth taking for over a decade now and given the chance to make them better GW have once again dropped the ball. It's not a 'nerdrage' moment for me, it's just disheartening that they truly think that something like AP3 makes a Storm Trooper worth the same cost as the Marine he'll kill 22% of the time (I think that's the chance a single BS4 Hellgun shot has to kill a Marine). For Ogryn, as Aggy has pointed out, GKTs end up being a cheaper and more effective choice (which, to me, is just ludicrous), and then for Commissars, easily my fav Guard unit of all time (hence my alter ego, Commissar Calgar - who's currently on a fishin trip), they're still overpriced and, if what Aggy said about power fists is true, they're going to have arbitrary restrictions placed upon them that not only make no sense, but invalidate existing models. Not that invalidating models is 'new' for GW, but I really thought we were passed wholesale removal of options that kill of entire units or choices (maybe I was optimistic thinking that the lessons of 'Generic Daemons' had been learnt).
But going back to the Storm Troopers, I've always said, right from the beginning, that I don't field Stormies in my Guard army. I have six full squads of Kasrkin and they have always, always been used as Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. And until GW comes along and removes all the Inquisitorial stuff from the DH and WH Codices, turning them into Codex: GKs and Codex: SoB, I will continue to use them as ISTs rather than regular Stormies and I will finally be able to complete my dream of having a fully airborne IST force thanks to the new Valk.
That's what I really want.
752
Post by: Polonius
Ozymandias wrote:Polonius wrote:
When did anybody here actually call anybody a fanboi, a sycophant, or an ass kisser? If I missed them, point it out, but I think your seeing them when they don't really exist, or were used only after we get yet another lecture on not being negative.
Ok, since you asked nicely, here's before my "lecture":
H.B.M.C. wrote:
I mean when myself, Aggy, DD and Shummy all come down on (roughly) the same side in a discussion, shouldn't that tell you something? All we need now is MIA GW sycophant Toreador to come in here claiming the end is nigh and we'll have a general Dakka consensus on the issue.
And after:
H.B.M.C. wrote:and it seems that those of us who don't instantly lap up whatever GW has to offer are branded as nerdraging whiners whereas those who choose to simply ignore the bad things and pretend they don't exist (like you Ozzy) are normal, and not fanboyish in the slightest.
emphasis mine.
Umm, not to sound really clueless, but isn't Toreador a pretty shameless fanboi? I"m pretty sure his track record is pretty clear. He's not being called a sycophant because he was defending the IG codex (in fact, he hasn't even posted in this thread), but rather as an example that he's a well known fanboi. It ain't slander if it's true.
And again, I feel like I'm either poorly explaining myself or your desperate to find offense, but the second quote does not call you a fan boi. It says those that disagree are branded as whiners, wheras those that ignore the bad things are normal, and not fanboys. Essentially, you're trying to argue that in pointing out how nobody is calling you a fanboi, HBMC called you a fan boy. Sure, he implied that you were, but only in the context of himself as a hater!
HBMC said it's a double standard for you to call me X when I don't call you Y. You're response seems to be, "haha, you call me Y while claiming not to be X, so YOU have the double standard."
I'm not sure if I"m deeply confused of if you're just not getting it, but the point of this entire tedious exercise was to point out that nobody is attacking people for being overly cheerful and chipper, or for being fanbois, or sychophants, or anythign like that. Yet those that dwell on potential negatives are hunted for blood sport. That's your double standard. I can find post after post of people preaching down to me and HBMC about how we're ruining their good time, and being negative, and how that's just awful.
I've said this before, but I'll repeat it: why is it not ok for me to post something negative about a product, yet it's perfectly fine for people to whine and moan about my post? So, complaining about a third party product that I'm going to buy and use regardless is taboo, yet railing against your community members because we have some negative thoughts is a useful post?
No, endless kvetching isn't useful, but that applies to both sides. In every one of these threads, we spend more time arguing over the negative comments than making them. The only problem is that the negative comments are both on topic and can lead to productive conversation. Repeatedly chiding us for being negative is both Off topic and counterproductive.
If you have a genuine issue with our comments, ignore them! Don't read them! report us to Mods! Do what you feel is necessary, but I'm just tired of getting yelled at for being fatalistic. Until you buy the site and make it a rule that only smiles and rainbows are allowed on Dakka, I'm going to call a spade a spade, a jerk a jerk, and a 16pt Stormtrooper overpriced.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Ozymandias wrote:Well those quotes were all from ONE post that you made AFTER my initial comment so...
Actually they were from three different posts in two different threads. But hey, let's not let truth get in the way of a good argument...
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Oh well. To be fair, even if the worst of Reds8n's rumors are true, my standard Ogryn config (5 guys with a Bone), only gets 60 points more expensive. I might not need a hammer after all.
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Post by: Ozymandias
George Spiggott wrote:So they pay another 10-15 points each for the additional point of Toughness and an Attack/Shot. -1 Strength unless they charge where they also gain +1 Initiative. Oh and stubborn means morale checks are always against Ld 6 or better.
6 points cheaper than Grey Knight Terminators?
Well to be fair, against many opponents the Ogryns are going to be a much tougher nut to crack than the GK Terminators. Things like Banshees, Genestealers, Bloodletters/crushers, etc are going to have much more trouble taking down a unit of Ogryns than they are a unit of GK terminators. So it's really what you want the unit to do. For pure cc killing power, GK termies are a better bet but for staying power, Ogryns probably win (haven't math-hammered it out but I'm sure someone will).
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Post by: ph34r
Shep wrote:ph34r wrote:
You're right. I can just take my warsmith's servo arm as er...
Completely off-topic, but i feel compelled to suggest this. It might not have crossed your mind, and I'm honestly just looking for a way to make you a bit happier.
It is perfectly legal under the GWGT rules for you to use the loyalist space marine rules to represent your iron warriors. You could use a master of the forge to represent your warsmith, and you can even do fun conversions and use thunderfire cannons and whatnot.
It might not be what you want to do, but its there for you if you want it.
I know that I could have my iron warriors "count as" something else, but there is no way to get the whole deal. I could get obliterators from codex chaos, but no veteran skills or servo arms or basilisks. I could get basilisks from codex IG, but nothing else. I could get servo arms in codex SM, but again no seige specialist skills, no obliterators, no basilisks. There's no hope for my IW any more, so I have moved on to my IG.
Kungfuhustler wrote:You haven't had anything to contribute to this thread (IMHO) for several posts. I understand your nerdrage, as I feel it too, but please quit whimpering like a grot all over the interwebz.
I have no rage, I have got over the fact that 2/3 of my armies don't exist any more by now. Right now I am just saddened by the fact that the IG codex is looking bad.
And on topic, the "make enemies re-roll cover" special order seems really good.
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Post by: Polonius
Wildeyedjester wrote:Wow. I came to dakka to see what rumors held and found this series of slandering and over emotional posts. I am saddened to see that such name calling and pointless bickering goes unchallenged and unadressed by moderators here. I would have thought that a thread labeled IG discussion in one of the more well known forums would have been just that and contain an actual discussion. I would have also hoped not to find only a series of hatred, flamings, rants about GW in general, and signature quotes that call people idiot.s
Well, first off, it's only slander if it's false. Second, if you think anything here is a genuinely over emotional flamewar than you haven't seen much of anything.
Threads get off topic. Some get back on, some degenerate. keep in mind that the actual rumors in this thread are probably only a few pages of text long, making the rest commentary and analysis, not hard substance.
I think that, like most communities, there is a common shared response when certain rituals occur. For every new codex, there is a wave of optimism, followed by the harsh reality of the downsides to units, followed by a cycle of argument, not about if there are holes and negatives and flaws, but whether we are spending too much time discussing the flaws and negatives.
Anyways, I think if you spend a bit more time here, learna few personalities, and figure out how to skip posts that are tangential or totally OT, you'll find a lot of good stuff here. If you genuinely think you can find internet forums with that are both just as lively as Dakka with less noise, feel free to let us know, but generally every forum has a pretty high noise ratio. Ours might be more heated, but noise is noise.
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Post by: Rated G
ShumaGorath wrote:Rated G wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:Ogryn excell against low volume high damage attacks and get torn down by high volume low damage attacks (banshees vs orks for example). They fill an entirely different roll than grey knights.
We have guardsmen to soak up those low volume, high damage attacks, for much less. We don't need an overly expensive unit (ie Ogryns) to do what the basic grunt already does. What we need is something to take those high volume, low damage attacks like a champ and come back swinging. Hence, GKT.
What the army needs and what the unit excels at are two different things, They would be pretty reasonable against daemon princes and avatars as well. The problem is the guard army wants a cureall for its weakness to high volume close combat, and thats something it will never have since its not in the spirit of the army to have it. I bet the tau would love it too, but they aren't ever going to get it. Ogryn are a cure to a problem that the guard don't have. They are a somewhat heavy damage output squad that can counterassault like champs after the rest of the line pours some fire on to their target. They are there to mop things up or hold down far off objectives.
I'm glad you expounded, because you initially made very little sense. Regardless, that's not the point. Nor does it matter what Tau players want. Guard players have a legitimate "cureall" (which I think your usage is hyperbolic) that is more economically sound...GKT. If Guard did not have access to GKT, it would be different and your comparison to Tau would hold a bit more water. But as they do have access to GKT, Ogryns seem less and less feasible as more rumors are brought to light. Guard players don't want a cureall, they want something within their own list that is competitive to options offered to them from other lists.
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Post by: Shep
H.B.M.C. wrote:As far as the Storm Trooper issue goes (and this applies to Ogryn and Commissars as well), my ire stems from the fact that these units haven't been worth taking for over a decade now and given the chance to make them better GW have once again dropped the ball.
It's looking that way. And when I've finished my testing, and come to that conclusion definitively, I think I'm going to be pretty bummed.
H.B.M.C. wrote:For Ogryn, as Aggy has pointed out, GKTs end up being a cheaper and more effective choice (which, to me, is just ludicrous)
We'll probably have access to them for another 2 years. Then this will be our counter attack for the next 3
H.B.M.C. wrote:and then for Commissars, easily my fav Guard unit of all time (hence my alter ego, Commissar Calgar - who's currently on a fishin trip), they're still overpriced and, if what Aggy said about power fists is true, they're going to have arbitrary restrictions placed upon them that not only make no sense, but invalidate existing models. Not that invalidating models is 'new' for GW, but I really thought we were passed wholesale removal of options that kill of entire units or choices (maybe I was optimistic thinking that the lessons of 'Generic Daemons' had been learnt).
I don't really 'get' what we're supposed to do with commissar's in the new book. but we need some more information. Where can they go, what can they take, I'm even looking into really skimping on my troops choices, and trying to get away with 3x vets and 3x chims. I think adding a commissar with a fist could be perfect for 10 vets in a chim. Able to take on a combat squad no problem and take over their objective. Great leadership and affordable. But then again, that might not even work.
H.B.M.C. wrote:But going back to the Storm Troopers, I've always said, right from the beginning, that I don't field Stormies in my Guard army. I have six full squads of Kasrkin and they have always, always been used as Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. And until GW comes along and removes all the Inquisitorial stuff from the DH and WH Codices, turning them into Codex: GKs and Codex: SoB, I will continue to use them as ISTs rather than regular Stormies and I will finally be able to complete my dream of having a fully airborne IST force thanks to the new Valk.
You might have already answered this, but do you have an aversion to running your kasrkin as veterans with 3x special weapons, 4+ armor save BS4 troops? I think thats what Robin wants the cadians to consider their kasrkin. I think it might be what my vostroyans turn into while i figure out how I want to use my platoons.
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Post by: Polonius
One of the problems with Ogryn solely as a tarpit unit is that it raises the quesiton of "would penal legion simply do the job better?"
I mean, things like banshees or even stealers do a lot of powered attacks, and are relatively soft hitting back. If you can get a 20-30 wound IG squad for the same cost, why not use them instead of ogryn? Particularly if commissars give stubborn.
I mean, a tarpit unit is fine it's a genuine tarpit, things like plaguebears for example simply strick around for ever. Ogryn might make a fine counter to light shock troops, but those aren't the IG's problem. IG can gladly sacrifice a single squad to allow 2 others with flamers and lasguns to cut down banshees/stealers/harlies.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Wildeyedjester wrote:Wow. I came to dakka to see what rumors held and found this series of slandering and over emotional posts. I am saddened to see that such name calling and pointless bickering goes unchallenged and unadressed by moderators here.
The mods here allow a quite a lot of leeway relative to other sites. Frankly, I'm glad that they do, as most of the reason I come here is because we're allowed to speak our minds and have it out without the mods descending from on high(hell, half the time some of them are involved) and telling us to behave every time someone says something insulting. Yes, we may bicker like children(and if it gets out of hand, they intervene), but that doesn't mean they have to treat us as such and babysit us. We're big boys and girls, we can handle it or we can close the window/go to another forum more heavily moderated/any number of other options. It's OUR choice. They don't sit over our shoulders and make us behave with threats of suspension or banning, they let us be ourselves, for better or for worse. And it's why I think Dakka is the best forum on the net. If you have a problem with it, I'm sorry and wish you would look around at other threads to see how the rest of the site is before you decide to leave. If you still don't like it, then maybe Dakka isn't the right forum for you after all and I wish you the best.
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Post by: Ozymandias
Polonius wrote:
Umm, not to sound really clueless, but isn't Toreador a pretty shameless fanboi? I"m pretty sure his track record is pretty clear. He's not being called a sycophant because he was defending the IG codex (in fact, he hasn't even posted in this thread), but rather as an example that he's a well known fanboi. It ain't slander if it's true.
Sure, calling someone out as a sycophantic is always good, especially when they haven't even posted.[/sarcasm] It may not be slander, but it still can be offensive. I could say Stelek is an ass but it wouldn't be relevant to this topic and would still be offensive.
And again, I feel like I'm either poorly explaining myself or your desperate to find offense, but the second quote does not call you a fan boi. It says those that disagree are branded as whiners, wheras those that ignore the bad things are normal, and not fanboys. Essentially, you're trying to argue that in pointing out how nobody is calling you a fanboi, HBMC called you a fan boy. Sure, he implied that you were, but only in the context of himself as a hater!
HBMC said it's a double standard for you to call me X when I don't call you Y. You're response seems to be, "haha, you call me Y while claiming not to be X, so YOU have the double standard."
I will say that I'm not in the best of moods and many of these posts are really, really rubbing me the wrong way so maybe I came on too strong but I think you are misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. Basically, I grew tired of reading negative post after negative post.
I'm not sure if I"m deeply confused of if you're just not getting it, but the point of this entire tedious exercise was to point out that nobody is attacking people for being overly cheerful and chipper, or for being fanbois, or sychophants, or anythign like that. Yet those that dwell on potential negatives are hunted for blood sport. That's your double standard. I can find post after post of people preaching down to me and HBMC about how we're ruining their good time, and being negative, and how that's just awful.
I've said this before, but I'll repeat it: why is it not ok for me to post something negative about a product, yet it's perfectly fine for people to whine and moan about my post? So, complaining about a third party product that I'm going to buy and use regardless is taboo, yet railing against your community members because we have some negative thoughts is a useful post?
It's fine for you to post something negative, and frankly I haven't had any problems with your posts (as they are almost always well thought out and reasoned). What I have an issue with is the "the sky is falling" mentality that we see so god-damn much of in this and the previous thread. Or as you put it:
No, endless kvetching isn't useful, but that applies to both sides. In every one of these threads, we spend more time arguing over the negative comments than making them. The only problem is that the negative comments are both on topic and can lead to productive conversation. Repeatedly chiding us for being negative is both Off topic and counterproductive.
Agreed with the condition that the positives are allowed to be posted without being shouted down.
If you have a genuine issue with our comments, ignore them! Don't read them! report us to Mods! Do what you feel is necessary, but I'm just tired of getting yelled at for being fatalistic. Until you buy the site and make it a rule that only smiles and rainbows are allowed on Dakka, I'm going to call a spade a spade, a jerk a jerk, and a 16pt Stormtrooper overpriced.
That's fine and as I said, I really don't have issues with your posts. If I ignore a certain other poster I will get made fun of behind my back (as he has done before) and given his posting regularity the IG threads would be mostly empty... Plus, despite the cynicism I value his (oh feth it, we all know I'm talking about HBMC) opinions on all things IG. I think he could be a lot more productive if his posts were more like Sheps, using his experience to analyze the good and the bad. But then that makes me an ass for telling him how to post... :p
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Post by: Gestalt
I bet they are counting the +1 str from ripper guns as the furious charge.
He did say ogryns were 40 points, he also said that the 115 cost may be the Bone'ead and 3 ogryn, for 4 total. Or it may be 3 total, so there is still hope at least. Nork has FNP too.
The tank commander is BS4 and +1 to armor pen rolls, The vanquisher cannon doesnt really need that but it would give a hull lascannon S10 at the same target. That would be 220 points.
BOLS has the twin linked and +1 armor pen as 2 separate orders. Fire in ranks seems to be lasgun only, not plasma guns/hellguns. Orders are taken using the receiving squad's LD, not the officer, so Vox is pretty mandatory and might screw hvy weapon squads then.
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Post by: Ozymandias
H.B.M.C. wrote:Ozymandias wrote:Well those quotes were all from ONE post that you made AFTER my initial comment so...
Actually they were from three different posts in two different threads. But hey, let's not let truth get in the way of a good argument...
My mistake. Your THREE quotes were only from TWO posts.
Nevermind that you ignored the rest of my post...
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Post by: Frazzled
This thread is closed. The moderators politely asked that this thread get back on track and it was immediately derailed.
This thread will be reviewed to see what disciplinary actions are needed after my warning post.
OTT but this moderator apologizes to Wildeyedjester for the thread getting out of hand again.
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