or something similar being discussed over at warseer
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188840

Boo. Feeder Tendrills preferred enemy only affects the unit with that biomorph. There goes one Tyranid bonus upgrade from 5th Ed.

I think overall Id be pretty happy with this if it is true,...FINALLY nids havel a flame weapon, youd think with all that acid flying around there would be, and otherwise looks to be a solid change. I dont like the "this amount of units minimum stuff" like for genestealers, but I think otherwise they are more getting a boost than anything else, and this eliminates genestealer ultra spam armies but not completely, with natural infiltrate and fleet, especially now with broodlord fleet, seems to me like you could run three heavy genestealer squads with a lord, and that would be pretty freakin nasty to have deployed in front of you able to assault first turn YIKES!

While there are some better changes to be had here, I hope that either this is a hoax or we would be compensated for these changes somehow. Needless barbed strangler strength nerf. Customization changed from statlines to USR's. Wings now take up a weapon slot?!?! What the heck? They already cost a huge amount of points. Unless the cost of wings goes down significantly it will become far less useful.

Regenerate giving FnP makes it useful though. Cheaper hormagaunts is necessary. Cheaper hormagaunts that can get furious charge (which they are almost guaranteed to benefit from) sounds nice but the upgrade cost may make them prohibitive.

Feeder tendrils working on only the models equipped with them goes against the fluff and makes the already impotent lictor even less useful. He had better get a huge boost to compete with infiltrating genestealers and warriors.

well, gues I'll wait some to assemble my 5 carnifex boxes.

the barbed strangler strength max only went down one and its cheaper to make it twin linked on MC's (you dont have to buy it twice only once) and the venom cannon got an improvement against anti-tank and mind lance is a nice addition

Doesn't sound too bad. I can't see the flat point cost for a brood upgrade staying, though. That is a horrid idea.

But now the barbed strangler no longer instagibs some characters and has lost a good bit of its anti-vehicle utility. It wasn't a railgun but it could still penetrate vehicles so you could supplement venom cannons with it and not be wasting shots. Still, I always thought that gunfexes were boring so if cc fexes become ultra killy, ultra-survivable killing machines that can actually make it to the enemy then I'll be happy.


EDIT: Moral of the story is "MAGNETIZE YOUR FEXES KIDS!"

Regeneration and crushing claws are better so if these rules are changes i think (in addition to 5th edition changes) you will see more cc fexes (and furious charge isnt half bad either).

I hope this is BS personally. There was nothing there that screamed cool to me other then the acid flamer thing. Just a handfull of no brainer, minor boosts (fleet broodlord and venom cannon boost) and a lotta nerfs. Not a whole lot in that roundup of course so I'll hold judgement till some confirmations and more info appears, at the very least.

Almost every unit got cheaper before biomorphs(most weapons already included and some stat adjustments over last codex).
But yeah it still looks like some cool stuff wasn't added(yet).

And so the pendulum swings right back to the "dumbing down" phase...

Tyrants succeptable to ID, Zoanthropes (+) that autopass psychic tests, Lictors that cannot assault after DS, Raveners that CAN, a new gun for warriors (needing a model), and no actual new units?

I could go on, but no. Just no.

shrug

IMO, that looks about right.

Mattlov wrote:Doesn't sound too bad. I can't see the flat point cost for a brood upgrade staying, though. That is a horrid idea.

It's exactly how chaos icon upgrades are brought. Of course, you can't ever lose your upgrade through wound allocation and bad luck.

Well it is a playtest codex so it is very, very likely that things will change. I see this like the Tau Empires codex, a quickie that can get out the door with minor changes and not a whole lot (or any) new models.

Yeah, I'd be wary about how much actually changes between the test Codices and the real ones.

The original version of the Ork Codex I got was not the final version, and the 5th Ed rulebook that was leaked didn't even have the layout done (it had place holders for where artwork and diagrams would go). In both cases nothing or virtually nothing changed between those unfinished releases and the actual published book.

If this is legit, I don't expect to see much if any change. GW are like a pitbull when it comes to a rule - if they want to change something, no amount of logic of common sense will sway them.

[EDIT]: In other news, I tried for a while this morning to find this 'test Codex', but could not for the life of me find it anywhere. If anyone knows where it might be, please PM me.

I'm really hoping wings as a weapon symbiote stays.
Nids=six limbs.

Belphegor wrote:I'm really hoping wings as a weapon symbiote stays.
Nids=six limbs.

Yeah, that's just about the only change that makes sense.

There are some horrendous wordings there. Extended Carapace and Crushing Claws are two prime examples. Must be legit GW product then...

Since upgrades have flat rates for whole broods - yes, you guessed it, hordes, here we come (again).

obviously a hoax, everyone knows GW doesn't play test.

Ok having actually read the PDF now -- I am not as disappointed. Yes there's some huge changes and yes I'll have more carnifexes and stealers then I can field in a regular FOC (assuming no SCs or special rules change sthings a bit).

Some stuff that stuck out at me (some I think not mentioned here or warser, or I missed em)

There are no more true stat altering bio-morphs. They all provide some sort of similar but slightly diff rule or USR. Most seem pretty cool to me and with the tweaks to the stats on creatures, makes much more sense.

Warriors are S5 T5. May explain why they decided ID immunity was not as neccesary.
-BS3 standard.
-Overall about same pointswise not counting the whole one price to upgrade brood bit. Will be much more efficent to upgrade large broods though.

Carnifexes have Tank Hunter, S8 and BS3 standard. -Are more expensive base but is about what it woulda cost in the old dex for the same loadout.
-Basic gunfex is 140 now (no more extra wound, BS3 standard) and with tank hunter the S7 strangler is really no dif as far as tanks and the venom cannon is a real beast (10+1D6+1 for pen roll, -1 on chart).
-Max S on devourer is 5 now...

Lictor gained a wound. Can't assault when it deepstrikes but also doesn't have to DS (can scout/outflank instead)

As mentioned Ravs can assault after DS (no fleet, no leap).
-They can also take the new extended carapace, which means they can save vs AP3 weaponry on a 5+.
-Price is about the same.
-Guns are no longer thorax (have to replace a talon).
-All in all much more like-able but much like vanguard the dsing after DS will be a gamble.

Hormagaunts are the same price as gaunts. Same as current termagants.
-Of note can get furious charge and/or poisoned weapons and seems worthwhile on a large brood (ie one of those on a full brood is still cheaper then stock hormie now).
-Still beasts.

Gaunts same cost as termagant regardless of weaponry
-Lose without number (could come back elsewhere though i guess).
-No price break as one would have though but their weapons are improved (fleshborer 18" range, spingaunt have 2 attacks from spinefist being 2 pistols, dev gaunt half-ish the price.

Spore mines can contest -- but don't give up kill points and can't keep a massacre from occuring (eg if they are the only ones left you still lose).

Genstealers gain infiltrate but are elites and same base cost as now.
-Lost a point of WS and I but gained an Attack
-Lose scuttle option (which is pretty much gone -- only lictor has scout I guess).
-12 man brood pays almost 4 times as much for feeder tendrils as now. no surprise I guess.
-5+ save but can take extended carapce for ability to save verses AP3 and AP4 (costs the same as 2 old marines).

No new units that I can see -- figure there woulda been, which makes me suspect this is an early play test or not a true one.

Dexy wrote:obviously a hoax, everyone knows GW doesn't play test.

And with that Dexy wins.

/thread

EDIT]: In other news, I tried for a while this morning to find this 'test Codex', but could not for the life of me find it anywhere. If anyone knows where it might be, please PM me.

The warseer thread mentions scribd -- its pretty fricken easy with that info unless it has been pulled.

I smell Bullpoop....

Lots and lots of Bullpoop, stuffed through someones letterbox, on fire, wrapped up in a wishlist.

Another thing to consider is you know GW won't publish a new codex without army-altering special characters. You know Old One-Eye is coming back. Probably to allow Carnifexes to count as scoring or something.

Rippers can no longer be insta killed but take 3 hits from blast weapons? Yes please. All of a sudden I'm wanting my 30 ripper tyranid army back (that i sold a few months ago).

Another thing to consider is you know GW won't publish a new codex without army-altering special characters. You know Old One-Eye is coming back. Probably to allow Carnifexes to count as scoring or something.

I'm glad I surf dakka. The stupid anti GW rants are a big draw.



I seriously doubt this is at all real.

... also base size is listed in the unit entries.

Armor saves are also listed as ARM.

It's oddly formatted. The inclusion of base sizes is a weird one. Plus it has a logical format with the weapons and biomorphs in a single location rather than spread out randomly throughout the book, so it can't be a nu40K Codex.

I don't trust it as it doesn't look anything like the other draft Codices I have in PDF format.

I like that warriors are boosted to S and T 5, like I asked for in a thread maybe a year or so ago. I am very upset that genestealers are not only being moved to elites but are also being nerfed to WS and I5. Genestealers were always unbelievably fast walking blenders that mulched nearly anything they got their claws on, even characters. Another iconic(to me, at least) Tyranid characteristic gone. These guys used to be the best hand to hand army you could get. Now, they are glorified berserkers with much worse armor and nerf-rending. And Lictors still suck.

GW giveth, GW taketh away.


EDIT: May I request anyone that has the pdf to pm it to me? I'd like to get a full read through.

Cripes, can someone just post it on 4chan or piratebay already?

Warriors are T5? Is this the new 'solution' to all multi wound models?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Cripes, can someone just post it on 4chan or piratebay already?

Someone already said how to get it in this thread.

Okay, I'm still getting through the codex. I kinda think it's real, but (obviously) very rough. This seems to be a much earlier document than some of the others that have leaked. So I dunno that it means much. Still, as a longtime horde-style player, here's some things that jump out at me:

1) Spinegaunts get an extra attack in CC. This is big. Scythegaunts were the top performing Gaunt build under 3rd edition rules...this keeps the gun option and restores the extra attack. Nice.

2) Tougher and cheaper Warriors, great. Warriors are the key to fixing hordes. This one is a real positive.

3) Extended Carapace...ugh. This needs to be an improved save rather than some wacky AP modifier. Fearless units need armor saves unless they're complete Cuisinarts in CC. Gaunts will never be that, so they need a better save to let them work as tarpits again. Saves vs. shooting, as this new EC seems intended to address, aren't really a major issue in 5th thanks to plentiful cover saves. This one is a real puzzler to me. I have no idea what the designer's thinking on this one.

4) Lictors...still underwhelming since 1998. Genestealers should still be okay, although I'm not sure why they're spending time tweaking them. I think they're just about right as is.

I'll probably have more thoughts later.

I really doubt it's real. GW have gotten good at playing tight mouthed larry right now, and I've not heard much in the way of a new Nid book being worked on.

Very doubtful about this.

My first reaction was "oh god no get ready to take the big GW weiner," but there is some stuff to like here.
Would it really be that big of a problem for Stealers to lose 1 point of WS and I to gain an attack? They would still go before almost everyone else, still hit on 3's, and the extra attack just serves to give more chances to rend. At the same cost as now, I'd take that.
Overall it seems like this could make things more balanced across the codex (except for the Lictor. Poor, poor, useless lictor. RIP). And it could get nids back to actually being a swarm/assault army, instead of a MC SAFH.
But that's a mighty big if. YMMV

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I really doubt it's real. GW have gotten good at playing tight mouthed larry right now, and I've not heard much in the way of a new Nid book being worked on.

I agree with your first point, and disagree with your second. There's been a decent amount of speculation on Warseer about Tyranids being the possible mystery codex, and a certain someone there posted a teasing message in another forum about dusting off his Tyranids in 2010.

Mind you, this document could be fake. But I do think Tyranids are on the way.

Scout wrote:Overall it seems like this could make things more balanced across the codex (except for the Lictor. Poor, poor, useless lictor. RIP).

I'm not going to freak out about the Lictor until a new codex is in my hand.

However, if said codex is in my hand and the Lictor *still* looks something like this, I'll be happy to organize an event at which Tyranid players can assemble, BURY their Lictor models and officially give up on the unit for all time. Amen. LOL.

Ozymandias wrote:Well it is a playtest codex so it is very, very likely that things will change. I see this like the Tau Empires codex, a quickie that can get out the door with minor changes and not a whole lot (or any) new models.

Probably they/GW will release this with the new Space Hulk system... which leads me to believe there is also something waiting in the wings for some lucky SM codex... Blood Angels perphaps? Hee!

G

If they're doing the original "Blood Angels vs Genestealers" plotline for Space Hulk, then you could conceivable get a BA Codex this year.

Like this Tyranids Codex would be (and Tau Empire before it), it would be a quick rush-job with just a few minor changes, nothing too dramatic, and a couple of new models. BA's would be the easiest Marine Chapter to do as they're the least unique of the sub-dex Chapters.

Would annoy the Space Wolf players though!

ShumaGorath wrote:

Another thing to consider is you know GW won't publish a new codex without army-altering special characters. You know Old One-Eye is coming back. Probably to allow Carnifexes to count as scoring or something.

I'm glad I surf dakka. The stupid anti GW rants are a big draw.



I seriously doubt this is at all real.

Easy there tiger. I think you're starting to see rants where there aren't any. Just pointing out that even if this playtest codex is legit, it is incomplete b/c the current trend is to include special characters, and there is precedence for a Tyranid special character.

If it'll make you feel more at home, I'll throw in some whiny comments about never playing X army again and I'll call you a stoopid poopy head.

On topic: Interesting that there's an option for Tank Hunter on the Carnifex.

ubermosher wrote:If it'll make you feel more at home, I'll throw in some whiny comments about never playing X army again and I'll call you a stoopid poopy head.

Nah if you want to annoy Shummy just tell him that GW writes their rules with a view to boosting model sales. He hates it when people say that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ubermosher wrote:If it'll make you feel more at home, I'll throw in some whiny comments about never playing X army again and I'll call you a stoopid poopy head.

Nah if you want to annoy Shummy just tell him that GW writes their rules with a view to boosting model sales. He hates it when people say that.

Only when they haven't actually thought it out at all. Which is in general what seems to happen. Children and manchildren with little economic and business training ranting about power imbalances being based off of a non sensical business model when there are much easier answers which don't require evil GW execs smoking cigars and laughing in their yaghts. The biggest one being that its a non competitive hobby game with a focus on casual non competitive play and GW writes its codexes and rules and FAQs accordingly. They have tournaments and hold events because its reletively free advertisement and "completes" the hobby. They're just idiots (though even then they aren't that bad at what they do).

I think I just hate unsubstantiated reactionary rhetoric in everything. I don't even like it when people throw out me too comments that I agree with. I want substance in what I read, not baseless opinion.

Easy there tiger. I think you're starting to see rants where there aren't any. Just pointing out that even if this playtest codex is legit, it is incomplete b/c the current trend is to include special characters, and there is precedence for a Tyranid special character.

GW is on record as saying that the tyranids as a race should have no special characters, and that for them to exist flies in the face of everything that makes the army special. It's specifically why they were removed from the current nid codex. I sincerely doubt that they will add them in. There is precedence, but there's precedence for squats too. When a GW exec comes out and states something as cut and dry as their reasoning behind tyranid SC removal I think that sort of becomes the end of the story.

I'm just fine with Stealers losing a point off of WS, a 6 doesn't get you much over a 5 anyway. Against most units out side of Guard and Tau you will still hit on a 3, and they will still hit on a 4, and the Stealer is cheaper because of it.

The Spike Rifle returning is good. Very good.

Except 6 still giving you 3+ to hit over all the models and characters that either have I and ws5 already or get it through furious charge these days. It was perhaps less meaningful in 3rd and 4th, but these days it actually has uses. Which is why they are losing it.

So everyone has Godzilla and Stealershock armies. Time to swing that pendulum, and swing it hard.

Most characters seem to have WS 6 or better now though. All chaos, marine, daemon, tyranid, eldar, and dark eldar characters have at least a 6 WS excluding oddities like the DA codex. It's really only a big issue when facing off against other shock assault troops from high WS armies, even then it only happens in a few instances.

I'm not a big fan of the change but I don't think its going to effect much. Your stealers shouldn't be in base contact with daemonettes and they shouldn't get charged by berserkers. It's just poor generalship. Cheaper stealers are almost a must now that they are no longer the third edition deathshock ultratroops of yesteryear.

more news from warseer
not saying its credible but a december 2009 release doesnt seem out of the question and brimstone has hinted at a plastic trygon being the next "superheavy"
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188947

They would still need new models for other things if they do not add new units maybe plastic gargoyles finally?

I have read though it a few times, taken a few deep breaths and spent the time to consider what Games Workshop are thinking and take an optimistic look upon things. I don't like it.

That said, most of the problems are with the numbers. This is too expensive, or that is under-powered. These things can be easily fixed, so I suspect the worst of it will be sorted out before the release. I do not have high expectations for the release, but I think it can be adequate.

Its still too far away to discuss models although hopefully some will finally find their way into the plastic range.

Starting points seem to be undercosted while biomorphs seem over, which means you have to take large broods, which i think is the intention.

As above, I'm generally OK with this, but I'm surprised GW wouldn't take "Special Characters" as exemplars of particular Hive Fleets. Perhaps, Old One Eye is a HQ Carnifex, that can only be taken if you have at least 2 other Carnifexes.

I think that Brood-based upgrades are the way to go, and the new Instinctive Behavior is simple and very playable.

Model-wise I'm hoping to see plastic Gargoyles and plastic Hive Tyrants (with wings). If GW does those two things, and recuts Warriors with Wings, Nid players should be ecstatic!

Other than those of us who already own 50 Warriors and 6 Hive Tyrants... *grumble grumble grumble*

Plastic Gargoyles would be hot though.

Because if there's anything you can have too much of, it's Tyranids.

Right now, the biggest model stupidity is winged HTs, because those are huge metal models that you're supposed to put on GW's flying stands.

Gargoyles are nearly as bad.

If I ruled GW, all flying models would be plastic!

At least you'd sell a lot of Old One Eye models.

That's probably fake from what I've read, and if not than I still won't buy it.

No strength 10 carnifexes anymore, believe me it's not worth it.

Now that Synapse creatures can suffer Instant Death maybe the Tyranid power that makes it harder to use psychic powers (Psychic Scream?) will get more use as I can't think of any non psychic, non strength based abilities that cause Instant Death outside of Wraithcannnons.

If Extended Carapace doesn't boost Armour Saves only modifies AP then Ratling Snipers (and others) will be much more effective vs. all Tyranid Monstrous Creatures and even Ogryns (current rules) would be useful in a fight against them. Maybe 35 point Orgyns could find a niche as Tyranid Monstrous Creature killers.

It seems awfully bland to me. Well balanced, but boring. So I'd bet my gaunt hordes that this (if at all from GW) is a fair bit from the final codex. I think there will be one or two new very useful units, to make sure that even old time Tyranid players wants to buy some new models. Plastic cheap gargoyles could do that. Maybe add a few army-wide modifications, similar to the ones that new armies are getting from special characters, but either make them an ugprade for a HQ-choice or as an armywide option (like IG doctrines).

If this document represents the direction that tyranids are going in, I'll be farily happy. Horde armies are fun to play, if a bit tiring to paint, and it fits my image of the tyranid species very nicely.

Some other random thoughts:

- The Carnifex entry looks unfinished (never mind the typos). Where are options for thornback, tails and other bitz on the sprues?

As is, gunfexes will need synapse escorts to avoid running off. And I'm not sure I like Zoeys in that role as they're now able to be instakilled again by a lascannon shot. If I was going to run gunfexes of some ilk from this codex, I'd probably have to advance them alongside a Tyrant and maxed Tyrant Guard unit instead of having them lurk around in the rear.

- No implant attack for the Tyrant? :( Although perhaps Acid Maw is meant to counterbalance that. It'd make Wraithlords and other high T monsters a lot less threatening. I like Acid Maw here the more I think about it, actually.

- Most of the upgrades for Hormagaunts look too expensive at first blush. However, Acid Maw is kind of interesting. Give that to a good-sized unit and watch them drag down Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons, Avatars, C'tan, etc. That volume of attacks combined with poison is fairly nasty, if expensive.

- Spike rifle back, yay. Rules, boo. Not sure I see them being a popular option without a boost. Fleshborers lose the wound reroll (boo) but gain range (yay).

- Bye bye psychic choir. Still, forcing that many pinning checks is intriguing.

- Overall, I'm okay with their general design approach. I think it needs changes in spots, and I still really don't like their approach to carapace.

I hope that they simply forget to include certain rules in this case..
Loss of living ammo sucks, Warp blast being split into two powers is weird, again no mention of thornback, Psychic scream replacing shooting as a pinning test in the days of everybody but Tau not caring about pinning means no one will take it anymore.

To Shummy, I disagree about stealers. Genestealers are supposed to be amazing killing machines that eat everyone and don't afraid of anything. I should not be worried that they are in base to base with Daemonettes. I should not be worried about them being in combat with berserkers. What is a close combat army if it is afraid of other close combat armies? They have always been the nastiest set of claws on two legs without monstrous creature status, but have always paid the points for it. Now they are being toned down to being relatively equivalent or worse than everyone elses troops. I understand the desire to have lord level characters compete with them finally, and I'm glad for that(because it makes Chaos Lords and such less of a liability when facing nids) but I think the nerf goes a bit too far. I would be happy with keeping the I at 6 if something had to give. One of the reasons I was drawn to nids in the first place was how their rules actually represented the unbelievable speed and ferocity they were capable of, even over Space Marines. Lictors used to be WS and I7 with 4 attacks for crying out loud. It was an unspoken characteristic that Tyranids were just that nasty, so you shot them. If for nothing else, I would like to keep that distinction so that the mental images of Tyranids in action I've had all these years don't disappear and make playing the army depressing.

Hmmmm... I've spent ages building my TWAR list and really like how it plays, so obviously I'm worried a little how much will change, but at the same time a new set of rules always inspires changes and additions. I do feel it's realistic the nids get a new book next year.

PS. Somebody please PM the link, thanks a lot!!!

Ha ha! The thread has just been deleted over at WarSeer with the notation "Confirmed fake".

Good

Why do people bother faking rumours?

Nothing better to do I guess, but why was it confirmed fake?

Headkeepa wrote:Nothing better to do I guess, but why was it confirmed fake?

No idea. I see Brimstone has just posted in the "2009-2010 Rumours" thread over at WarSeer that it was a fake. No other info other than that.

Well, if you go through the trouble of making a real fandex, you might as well make it a fake rumor while you're there.

Brimstone is seldom wrong, and he's seldom as terse as that without reason. I'm going to assume someone at GW has weighed in on the issue.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Brimstone is seldom wrong, and he's seldom as terse as that without reason. I'm going to assume someone at GW has weighed in on the issue.

And you would be correct a confession is not the only reason it was removed.

Railguns wrote:I hope that they simply forget to include certain rules in this case..
Loss of living ammo sucks, Warp blast being split into two powers is weird, again no mention of thornback, Psychic scream replacing shooting as a pinning test in the days of everybody but Tau not caring about pinning means no one will take it anymore.

To Shummy, I disagree about stealers. Genestealers are supposed to be amazing killing machines that eat everyone and don't afraid of anything. I should not be worried that they are in base to base with Daemonettes. I should not be worried about them being in combat with berserkers. What is a close combat army if it is afraid of other close combat armies? They have always been the nastiest set of claws on two legs without monstrous creature status, but have always paid the points for it. Now they are being toned down to being relatively equivalent or worse than everyone elses troops. I understand the desire to have lord level characters compete with them finally, and I'm glad for that(because it makes Chaos Lords and such less of a liability when facing nids) but I think the nerf goes a bit too far. I would be happy with keeping the I at 6 if something had to give. One of the reasons I was drawn to nids in the first place was how their rules actually represented the unbelievable speed and ferocity they were capable of, even over Space Marines. Lictors used to be WS and I7 with 4 attacks for crying out loud. It was an unspoken characteristic that Tyranids were just that nasty, so you shot them. If for nothing else, I would like to keep that distinction so that the mental images of Tyranids in action I've had all these years don't disappear and make playing the army depressing.

I would see the change as more of a re designation of the genestealer as a shock assault troop rather than a bizarre "super super" creature. They are still more skilled than space marines, which are supposed to be terrifying men of mythical power and speed, and thats with the drop. The initiative drop of the two stats is the one I was disappointed to see though. I did always like the idea that the genestealer was simply faster than what humans could ever be. I do have to disagree a bit that the genestealer "should" be better than a daemonette (A daemon of impossible speed and skill) or a khorne berserker (an insane superhuman gifted by the god of slaughter to be even more skilled and powerful. Who is also in powered armor). Genestealers are impressive no doubt, and their skill and speed is beyond superhuman, but so is most of the 40k setting. Should they be better than daemons? Supersoldier leaders who have spent the last 600 years training? Genetically engineered warbeings created by the old ones? I can respect it if your answers yes, as it is an interesting quirk of the biological superarmy, I'm just not so sure.

An confession posted by itcamefromthedeep over at Warseer:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3389454#post3389454

itcamefromthedeep wrote:

itcamefromthedeep wrote:
Mea culpa. T'was a practical joke on my part, to be played on the online 40k community. I thought you might want to know, having thrown a little bit of weight behind it. My intention with this message is to keep you well-informed as always, and perhaps to pass along my regards and best wishes to your contacts in GW.

And to be clear, I have heard nothing about the direction the new Tyranid codex is going in, if it has even been started. There is no leak, at least not to my knowledge.

I've had my laugh at Warseer's expense (as well as DakkaDakka, Heresy Online, and others), but the joke has not quite run its course yet. I expect to be outed eventually, but I'd like it to be by the real rumors.

I would humbly ask that you let the document stew. There was a fair bit of positive response, and I'd like that to be carried over for a while to come. Keep hope alive, so to speak. I kindly ask that you let it be debunked in good time as actual rumors about the new codex come out. Some of the positive response may be due to the conservative (high) points values given to many of the models and options in the codex, but I honestly believe that people appreciate some of the basic design decisions made in the "leak". From now on, I ask nothing more then silence.

Now, understand that it was in no way my intention to violate any copyright laws. To that end, I made sure to change things drastically enough that the document would be useless to someone trying to come up with a Tyranid list for the current edition. Literally no unit is the same. Similarly, I posted no background material for the units, nor did I use any Games Workshop letterhead, images, or watermarks. The names of units were used, but that was unfortunately unavoidable. I sought no profit from this.

Boy, I hope GW legal has a sense of humor about this prank.

My intention was, from the very beginning, to have a bit of harmless fun, and maybe (just maybe), give the current codex designers a taste of how the community would receive the changes I proposed in this document. Hopefully this document could even offer some suggestions as to where GW might go with the Tyranids. I would love it if something truly positive came out of this. To gauge the response, however, I'd like the authenticity (or lack thereof) to remain a secret for now.

I don't actually know where GW is in the production phase. It may be too late to do anything about it if we see a December release. If so, then whatever. I'll live with it. I just hope they do a better job then I did!

Once more, this is all in good humor.

Regards and best wishes.

And then Brim had to go and spoil my fun. There was so much good will. There were a few complaints (mostly justified, and I agreed with most), but the overall reaction was so positive that I thought Brim would just let it go.

Some people just can't take a joke.

======

You see, it started with the usual "If I wrote the next Tyranid Codex..." which is always very unsatisfying. The beginnings of the fandex were percolating. So then I thought to myself: "You know who's really serious about rumors? Warseer." The practical joke was a baby step away. From there I decided to make it the best fandex I could, not only to make it sound real, but to show up the real designers if I could.

Now, there were loads of mistakes (I'm only one man, without a full-time editor!). Not the least of the sources for suspicion was the hidden document info, which I know existed but didn't have the computer-fu to mess with. Another was the "new unit". I have some ideas, but balancing that sort of thing is a nightmare, and I had already discovered when trying to balance other unit prices. As soon as you're behind the reigns of a new power or mechanic, you suddenly have no idea what anything should cost. It's incredible. I tried to reduce/increase costs of things that were seen to be under/over powered, but with so many new mechanics and USRs around, I really needed some proofreading from friends, who caught some very silly stuff. It never occurred to me, for instance, that the poison re-roll synergizes particularly well with Rending. Overall, I tried to be conservative with the prices on the USR upgrades, just because I was scared that I had lost perspective on their power.

Anyone up for a thread on codex design? I can practically guarantee it'll be the closest thing that many of us get to a truly meaty "designer's notes" section. Or should I stick my practical joke where the sun don't shine?

Oh, and as for the OP, I have no idea about the other rumors on that list. That's got nothin' to do with me.

That's good. There were real headscratchers in among the good stuff.

Not that there won't be headscratchers when the real thing's out, LOL.

To Shuma:

My answer would be yes, actually. It was what made them impressive. Yes, these guys had daemonic power, or ancient super technology, or hundreds of years of training, etc, but genestealers things were just perfect killing machines that illustrated fear in the human psyche. These are the predators, a primal human fear. A caveman couldn't hope to match a lion in personal combat so either he hid behind spears and friends to fight them or died with his hands out and eyes closed trying to hide from this insurmountable fear and helplessness in the face of a predator. In the far future of super powered megaman in power armor and battleships that destroy planets as a matter of course, what kind of predator is going to represent such a primal fear? The kind the represent the same challenge. With all your technology and gene conditioning and training, this thing is still faster, stronger, and tougher than you and it will kill you and eat you. Though you may shoot them down and crush some of them under the weight of firepower you know that alone, without your fellows, weapons and fate to hide behind they will kill you. Genestealers and Lictors being imperceptably fast were a strong nod towards this theme, especially when compared to the superhuman space marines.

Back in 2nd Ed, a Genestealer was a match of a Marine Captain. Two or three Genestealers would likely eat a Marine Captain for lunch.

And this is in 2nd Ed, a game dubbed HeroHammer because of how powerful characters were. Genestealers and Lictors were two of the few troop types that could stand toe-to-toe (or claw-to-toe really) against these megalithic powerhouses of destruction.

Yes, in the long run, the difference between WS6/I6 and WS5/I5 isn't that huge. In current 40K, where WS isn't as important and most things are I4 and below, the a change like that would be a much of a muchness - but it really is about what sort of images Genestealers counjure up. Genestealers have held a special place amongst all other HTH troops because their skills were always superior, no matter the technology or training of their opponents. It is what made them unique amongst all the other types of HTH fighters. The only unit that could ever come close to matching them were Harlis, and they're another iconic unit with a heavy amount of mystique piled onto them.

Now this Codex is fake as some of us suspected, so this is all mostly moot - but I much prefer the idea of WS6/I6 Genestealers because it just feels right to me - more right than giving them A3.

Railguns wrote:To Shuma:

My answer would be yes, actually. It was what made them impressive. Yes, these guys had daemonic power, or ancient super technology, or hundreds of years of training, etc, but genestealers things were just perfect killing machines that illustrated fear in the human psyche. These are the predators, a primal human fear. A caveman couldn't hope to match a lion in personal combat so either he hid behind spears and friends to fight them or died with his hands out and eyes closed trying to hide from this insurmountable fear and helplessness in the face of a predator. In the far future of super powered megaman in power armor and battleships that destroy planets as a matter of course, what kind of predator is going to represent such a primal fear? The kind the represent the same challenge. With all your technology and gene conditioning and training, this thing is still faster, stronger, and tougher than you and it will kill you and eat you. Though you may shoot them down and crush some of them under the weight of firepower you know that alone, without your fellows, weapons and fate to hide behind they will kill you. Genestealers and Lictors being imperceptably fast were a strong nod towards this theme, especially when compared to the superhuman space marines.

I accept this. I like the thought here too. I'm just not sure how thats to be entirely represented in the game. They are the superior "predator" to all the sentient races, but how do they compare to daemons honestly? Both are the things that keep men up at night, just in different forms. Though whether thats a call to make daemon troops better or genestealers worse I'm not sure. I wish this game was on a more meaningful scale of numbers. 1-10 seems like a lot but in reality its only 3-7 as far as weapon skill and initiative really go. Four points. There are gradations that simply can't be represented with such a small range.

Now this Codex is fake as some of us suspected, so this is all mostly moot - but I much prefer the idea of WS6/I6 Genestealers because it just feels right to me - more right than giving them A3.

I felt like trying to keep the thread alive given the death of its actual topic. I figured it was a good point of conversation given the previous posts on the subject.

Since this has been confirmed a homebrewn codex (and imho a pretty reasonable and interesting one, respect to the creator!) I think it would be allright to leave a link:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13214805/Tyranids-5th-edition-Playtest

It is a very interesting list to base discussions like "What do I want for the coming Tyranid Codex" around. I particularily like the price-per-unit for biomorph upgrades.

PS: If this turns out to really be a testplay Codex, copyrighted and whatnot by GW, and Itcamefromthedeep is pulling my leg, then I guess I'll hear from the dakka mods soon enough... :-)

I'm not a fan of the price per unit mechanic, it makes sense with chaos upgrades but tyranid point values are supposed to be based on the difficulty of construction of a creature. Which doesn't make sense when they vary in that way.

It's also kind of a non sensical pointing mechanic that unreasonably harms smaller squads.

Although it has been confirmed a fake, that doesn't mean that there isn'y anything to be learned from the discussion.

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm not a fan of the price per unit mechanic, it makes sense with chaos upgrades but tyranid point values are supposed to be based on the difficulty of construction of a creature. Which doesn't make sense when they vary in that way.

Honestly, I don't think points-per-model should have much to do with fluff. But if you insist: Imagine that the points goes into making up the blueprint for the unit, mixing and matching all the genes, making sure the limbs and guns goes in the right direction etc etc. The effort needed to actually create each creature could be pretty small compared to setting the parameters right, compare to how printing worked before the digital press. What I ment was that it is an interesting game-mechanic, since it encourages big units, wich I find a refreshing and challenging difference to how most other 40k armies work.

ubermosher wrote:

Dexy wrote:obviously a hoax, everyone knows GW doesn't play test.

And with that Dexy wins.

/thread

ooooooh called so early in the thread.

It must be a relief and a disappointment to tyranid players for this to not be genuine.

Mellon wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm not a fan of the price per unit mechanic, it makes sense with chaos upgrades but tyranid point values are supposed to be based on the difficulty of construction of a creature. Which doesn't make sense when they vary in that way.

Honestly, I don't think points-per-model should have much to do with fluff. But if you insist: Imagine that the points goes into making up the blueprint for the unit, mixing and matching all the genes, making sure the limbs and guns goes in the right direction etc etc. The effort needed to actually create each creature could be pretty small compared to setting the parameters right, compare to how printing worked before the digital press. What I ment was that it is an interesting game-mechanic, since it encourages big units, wich I find a refreshing and challenging difference to how most other 40k armies work.

I also dislike it from a conceptual balance standpoint for the reason in my second paragraph. Its a hamfisted solution.

Mellon wrote:Since this has been confirmed a homebrewn codex (and imho a pretty reasonable and interesting one, respect to the creator!) I think it would be allright to leave a link:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13214805/Tyranids-5th-edition-Playtest

It is a very interesting list to base discussions like "What do I want for the coming Tyranid Codex" around. I particularily like the price-per-unit for biomorph upgrades.

PS: If this turns out to really be a testplay Codex, copyrighted and whatnot by GW, and Itcamefromthedeep is pulling my leg, then I guess I'll hear from the dakka mods soon enough... :-)

itcamefromthedeep deleted the pdf already, so the link's no good.

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:

itcamefromthedeep deleted the pdf already, so the link's no good.

Bah, good thing I saved it to my harddrive then :-) Here it is.

Note: I take no credit for this fanmade codex, it is all the hard work of Itcamefromthedeep of Warseer-fame:

Railguns wrote:Although it has been confirmed a fake, that doesn't mean that there isn'y anything to be learned from the discussion.

I'm more then happy to talk about what I did right and what I did wrong working on that document.

There's the obvious stuff, like the Hive Tyrant bit in the Carnifex entry. Then there's stuff like moving Genestealers to Elites, which from the perspective of a lot of players demands some explanation.

Remember that I'm no more of an expert than the community says I am. It fooled some people, which is an ego boost, but there were definitely some questionable design decisions.

As for what has already been mentioned:

WS/I on Genetealers:
That was a largely a mechanical decision, and perhaps not an appropriate one. I thought Initiative and WS 6 was over the top, particularly for a monster seen in the numbers that Genestealers are. From the fluff perspective it seemed like an inefficient investment for a critter so numerous and squishy. I'm not particularly attached to that decision.

Putting them in Elites was one of the uglier decisions I made (at least intentional decisions). First, they're elite shock troops. That sounds Elite. Second, the Elites section was looking pretty bare without Elite Carnifexes there. It was pretty much Warriors and Lictors. The third reason was that I wanted to emphasize the importance of synapse, to the tune that you can't have any scoring units without it. Removing Independant broods from the Troops section was important for that. Synapse just hasn't mattered for most of the Tyranid codexes up 'till now, and I wanted to change that.

Upgrades by Brood:
This one was simple. I wanted to encourage larger broods. Not much more than that. I have to say a side benefit became apparent to me, though. It allowed for costs that would work out to fractions of points per model, without actually dealing with fractions of points. The price per brood system allows for greater variety in pricing and relative effectiveness. I wouldn't lose sleep if the price/brood thing didn't happen for Tyranids, but realize that such a mechanic is already common. CSM icons are an obvious example, but other examples include the new Apothecary and the Painboy, which have a flat price for a scaling benefit. Enhance on an Eldar Warlock. A more subtle example is that the Power Klaw on a Nob becomes more valuable the more ablative Wounds it has.

Synapse:
Yeah, that was ugly. I simply haven't found a good way of dealing with it mechanically. How do you make a mechanic that will make an army "fall apart" without it? The best thing I thought of is to have the Tyranids go on autopilot without Synapse. This was yet another blow to the Carnifex model, but I wanted to make them follow the rules to, or else Synapse goes back to meaning very little again.

Any other WTF decisions you guys want cleared up?

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:itcamefromthedeep deleted the pdf already, so the link's no good.

Shall I put it back up?

As I said earlier, I found it a little bland, lacking new models for example. What is your idea for a new unit?

I like stealers becoming elite, but with this greater dependency on synapse, I think there should be some more Synapse source. Maybe the lictor, to give him some use. Maybe an activated psychic power "Call of the hivemind" that extends Synapse control over one unit within 18" for the rest of the turn. Synapse creatures should be crucial, but the synapse net must not be so frail that it breaks into irreparability when one hivetyrant dies.

Heya ICFTD, I thought that Genestealers as Elite and Brood-based upgrades were *good* ideas, along with the revised Instinctive Behavior.

The Genestealer WS/I is OK, as WS5+ and I5+ are what's required to hit Marines on 3+, first. More than that is perhaps overkill, but would be possible via buying Adrenal Glands for I6.

itcamefromthedeep wrote:I'm more then happy to talk about what I did right and what I did wrong working on that document.

I do have one question:

The choice to make Wings a weapon on Warriors/Hive Tyrants. Now I understand the FW conversion kits do this, but is there a reason you did this beyond that?

itcamefromthedeep wrote:Putting them in Elites was one of the uglier decisions I made (at least intentional decisions).

As someone who has been writing (and in some cases struggling to write) the Tyranid Codex for our big Warhammer 40,000 Revisited project, our Genestealers have gone through more revisions than anything else in the Tyranid Codex. The most recent change was a movement on the FOC. Now, in our Codex we dumped the HQ/Elite/Troops/Fast Attack/Heavy Support system for Tyranids because it simply didn't make sense. There are only three types of Tyranids - Leader Creatures, Broods and Autonomous Creatures, and that's where they fall. Genestealers were originally part of Broods, and even with the reductions in power that we've given them (they were WS6 S4 I6 A3 w/Rending Power Weapons to start with... they've changed a lot since then) they were still so powerful that they negated the need for Gaunts.

So I moved them to Autonomous Creatures, where they now have to compete with Lictors, Warriors, Carnifexes, Biovores etc. all of which have a purpose in my Codex.

And speaking of Warriors, I do like what you did with them. My ones are T4(5) with a 3+ save rather than a flat T5. The only thing I didn't like was the Acid Jet cannon because it was a bit 'meh'.

BYE

Mellon wrote:As I said earlier, I found it a little bland, lacking new models for example. What is your idea for a new unit?

I didn't go much farther than brainstorming. I had already spent a significant amount of time on the project, and I wanted to get the ball rolling. It was "rushed out the door", after a fashion. I never got as far as stat lines.

In general, when playing against Tyranids I wanted to create a feeling that they were coming at you fast from all sides, as if the terrain and the world itself were your enemy. I would make a unit that pursued that goal. The first thing to come to mind was an immobile creature that would deep strike onto the board and attack anything nearby, to represent a "defensive" static organism erupting from the ground, capillary-tower style.

I would have liked to include a Haruspex or Malefactor, which for those of you who never played Epic are Tyranid troop transports. I'm thinking a giant armored-plated segmented slug with talons at the front. Tyranids would hide in the recesses of it's plates. Visually, think of a Protoss Reaver in shape, with more prominent plates with lots of space in between them. It would work as a monstrous creature that uses rules for an open-topped transport. I'll concede that the Assault Spawn might be more appropriate for Apocalypse, where they can take advantage of the Gargantuan Creature rules straight up.

Mellon wrote:I like stealers becoming elite, but with this greater dependency on synapse, I think there should be some more Synapse source. Maybe the lictor, to give him some use. Maybe an activated psychic power "Call of the hivemind" that extends Synapse control over one unit within 18" for the rest of the turn. Synapse creatures should be crucial, but the synapse net must not be so frail that it breaks into irreparability when one hivetyrant dies.

A new Synapse creature would most likely be a new unit for the Codex. It doesn't make much sense for Lictors given previous background.

As for Synapse coverage, that is a serious problem under my codex. My expectation was that people would load up on big fat broods of Warriors to cover large areas with durable Synapse, keep the Genestealers and Lictors to a minimum, and probably bring along Zoanthropes for some more support as well as Biovores because they don't care about Synapse. Genestealers and Lictors would be used to attack targets well outside Synapse coverage.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Heya ICFTD, I thought that Genestealers as Elite and Brood-based upgrades were *good* ideas, along with the revised Instinctive Behavior.

Thanks, but many people didn't at first glance. I wanted to at least talk about why that was done. Thanks again.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The choice to make Wings a weapon on Warriors/Hive Tyrants. Now I understand the FW conversion kits do this, but is there a reason you did this beyond that?

Well, the Gargoyle models seem to use one of their existing 6 limbs to fly, in their case the middle limbs that appear to be quite small and near-useless on Gaunts.

The big reason, though, was a mechanic that would control Flyrants other then simply upping the price of the upgrade. Replacing a (valuable) weapon seemed the best solution, given Forge World and others. Now, another consideration was of course that I wanted the document to be believeable, and leaving the Forge World models as an Easter Egg appealed to me. This project was first and foremost for fun, and you have no idea how happy I was watching the Warseer thread when someone complained about replacing a weapon set and another rebutted with the Forge World models.

H.B.M.C. wrote:As someone who has been writing (and in some cases struggling to write) the Tyranid Codex for our big Warhammer 40,000 Revisited project, our Genestealers have gone through more revisions than anything else in the Tyranid Codex. The most recent change was a movement on the FOC...

Messing with basic mechanics like the FOC was straight out for my purposes. It is in no way believable. I like the system they have in place, for a number of reasons. Suffice it to say that such an option is out until we see precedent for GW on this.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And speaking of Warriors, I do like what you did with them. My ones are T4(5) with a 3+ save rather than a flat T5. The only thing I didn't like was the Acid Jet cannon because it was a bit 'meh'.

I wasn't really happy with the Pyro-Acid Spitter. I wanted a template weapon somewhere in the list. Bio-plasma was the first candidate (that's what it did in 2nd), but that left every Gargoyle with a template weapon, and that many templates is an ugly rules proposition. Tyranids use something called "pyro-acid" in Battlefleet Gothic, and that sounds like a sprayey-flamey thing, so it became the flamer.

Oh, Living Ammunition. That bugged a lot of people.

The reason that got cut was because it has a very bad reaction to the poison rules. Giving a reroll to Gaunt Devourers is a nightmare, and giving a model 2 sources for a reroll leads to points wasted and confusion for new gamers.

Poison and Living Ammo just don't play nicely together.

As for Poison, I've heard more then twice that poison all over the place is over the top. Well, that's what Toxin Sacs should do. Their Toxins Sacs, filled with Toxin, that is used on the weapons you Attack with. Poisoned Attacks was a no-brainer. Furthermore, Tyranids are supposed to be the masters of biological warfare. So they get lots of biological weapons. I'm cool with that. From a balance perspective, poison on lots of stuff could work as a "great equalizer" for units like Plague Marines, Daemon Princes, and other high-toughness nasties that may or may not appear in the future. I don't mind punishing super-units.

I do like the idea of Hormagaunts being that cheap. Really, they are easy to kill with the same offensive punch as a guard sargeant with laspistol and close combat weapon. They are probably worth 7 points maximum without upgrades, but 10 prices them out of the game.

Railguns wrote:I do like the idea of Hormagaunts being that cheap. Really, they are easy to kill with the same offensive punch as a guard sargeant with laspistol and close combat weapon. They are probably worth 7 points maximum without upgrades, but 10 prices them out of the game.

I wasn't so worried about specific points values, just comparative prices of things like upgrades.

I'd like to think that I had maybe a 30% margin of error for the prices I gave and the price a model should be. Even then, there is no true value for any given model in all circumstances. The value of a model is dependent upon the metagame, subject to diminishing rate of return, and a host of other factors.

Being more specific with prices is what playtesting is for.

As a small question, where did your idea for Extended Carapace come from? Was there any fluff or previous rules that gave you the idea?

I ask mainly because I was working on a proposed unit and had armor with an almost identical rule, so I wanted to know if there was a precedent.

Could someone please post it here or a different link, i cant get to it on the Warseer site.

Mellon on page 3 is where I got to read it.

Saw that, not their either. I know it was a fake but i still just want to look through it.

arm? what is an arm?
maybe they mean sv?

twits

itcamefromthedeep wrote:I didn't go much farther than brainstorming. I had already spent a significant amount of time on the project, and I wanted to get the ball rolling. It was "rushed out the door", after a fashion. I never got as far as stat lines.

This right here is why you fooled people.


Seriously, Removing insta-death. Where did you get the Idea for that? I've been saying that I think the Nids Psychic Over-presence would get nerfed because of how much their Psychic ability was down-played in the 5th ed BRB.



As to proposed rules, Does anybody think that Having a Generalized Special Character for each fleet would be feasible. Make each hive fleet have it own biomorph specialization with the best of which being a "Queen" or "Primus Tyrant" that is the Hive tyrant for that fleets army. These Tyrants would instead of being just the regular Tyrant model would instead be a special Carnifex for the hive that specializes in MCs, an improved broodlord for the fleets specializing in infiltrating gene-stealer cults, Zoeys for the hive fleet that specializes Psychic domination and suppression, ect.....
These special characters would be refered to as a "Red Terror" or a "Ol' One-Eye" or "Whatever cool nickname goes here" But are just the best version of the biomorph that exist.

This brings up a question. Does anybody know how Tyranid Leader creatures are selected to be the leaders? I find it hard to believe that they only make one at a time. If they follow true hive structures then several are made at the same time and one ends up surviving after driving the others off or killing them. This is a race that is pretty much focused only on feeding and improving itself genetically.

From a storyline perspective, I think it'd be cool if they are so fixated on improving genetically, and consuming biomass towards that goal, that it makes each hive fleet territorial. Think it would be a cool story arc to have two Hive Fleets meet up and to start devouring each other before they try to consume all of the biomass in the area while the various races each have a mission in the area to accomplish while trying to not attract the attention of the warring hive fleets.

Just some ideas