Edit: The product is the Combatmat, not Battlemat, my apologies.

Here is the link to the product http://www.saboldesigns.net/combatmat.html



Ok fellas, I have not even taken pics of mine yet, these are my initial impressions.

First of all, the Battlemat is very well made, with a thick bottom that is very non slip. The top is a type of dense felt looking material that does appear to be able to keep figs fairly safe if they fall. The image printed onto it is photo realistic, the detail is great.

It looks like it will withstand a ton of pnuishment and the felt matrial seems to be pretty druable, although time will tell in that department. It rolls up, no creases, but does curl up a bit at the edges. If I store it flat under the bed, I assume that these will go away in time. Plus, terrain will keep it weighted down.

It looks great, my one, giant, HUGE complaint: IT HAS A GOD DAMN ADVERTISEMENT ON IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The fething Battlemat comes with a 4 foot long white print out of the company name and the company website, down one end.

Are you fething kidding me?!?!?!?!?!

I did not pay to advertise for your company, I am really pissed. It ruins the aesthetics of the mat.

It does not show the gakky, stupid advertisement in the product pictures on the website so I feel pretty cheated in this. I am going to write Sabol to see what they say and I am going to write Neal at the Warstore. What the hell were they thinking? It is so ugly and distracting that I am seriously dumbfounded at the stupidity of this move.

But, I want to thank everyone who gave me input into their own mats, I should have listened to Tazok and got a Zuzzy. Hopefully I can return this, as the assanine advertisement just ruins it.

You're a modeler. Can't you cut the advert strip off with a hobby or utility knife?

Then the mat would be about 6" too short. It is exactly 4' by 6'.

Cool. Are you adding your review to the Articles system?

Really? That sucks! Take a picture so we can all see the advert.

Yeah I will, I am so bummed out, it was the thing I was most looking forward to. The add just blows, its HUGE. I will snap a picture to show everyone, the thing that really gets me is that the damn picture on the website does not show the add.

And Malfred, yeah I will add to the article section as soon as I have some pics up.

Mat Sabol already got back to me and basically told me tough gak. He didn't give a rat's ass that I was mad about being misled on the product and said the bellow picture clearly indicates the advert in question. I told him he must be joking me as the large pictures of the product clearly do not show the advert (he must have intentionaly cut them out of the picture on both mats), and the mat with the tiny little advert on them is not the one I ordered. And, this picture makes the advert look so much smaller than it actually is, it is rediculous.



He then wen on to say this: "Please feel free to cut the text off or as everyone else is doing cover parts of it up with terrain." So obviously other people are not happyabout it either.

What a dick.

Hopefully Neal will take this back, he is pretty cool and I bring him a lot of business. I think I will be done with Sabol after this, there are just too many other options out there.

Well, I will post reviews on the gaming forums so people know what to expect since the website is so misleading. What a bust. the prodcut is otherwise very high quality.

It may not bother some people, but the last thing I want in a game is a flipping advert. I paid good money for this dumb thing, if I want a fething commercial I will turn on the TV. If it would have been a small logo in the corner, no problem, but the damn thing is huge!

I'm looking at the link you made and the advertisement is very clear in the third picture. It's the first picture under SD-COMBATMAT "PLAINS". Still a shame though, and an idiotic idea to boot.

Edit: Looks like you beat me to it. I can't say whether you were intentionally misled or nor, but it is a shame that his response was such as it was.

I have been wanting this myself. Didn't see the advert either, but won't be purchasing it now so thanks for the review. If I am not too lazy I may even write to them. Cutting it out is such an assinine thing to say. Anyone had issues with their customer service - I need a new bag and foam and deciding between them and Battle Foam. Battle Foam (whilst more expensive than Sabol) is really catching my eye and I hear great things about their c/service.

Alright, to be upfront about all of this, Mat got back to me after I sent a really angry letter and he apologized and offered to try and make amends.

I am not the kind of person to take advantage of a situation or try and get free stuff just by throwing a temper tantrum and told him as such. I just asked what he suggested at this point, so I will let you guys know what he says.

I did suggest he put the advert on the big picture of the Mat, as if I had known I was getting that, I would not have purchased it. I looked at about 6 different gaming Mats (Monday Knight Games, GW, Zuzzy, etc.) before I decided on this one. I even asked other gamers here on Dakka what Mats they liked. I was really looking forward to getting it, which is why I felt so dissapointed when I got the package.

OK, the situation is being taken care, sorry to vent here guys, but I was pretty frazzled about it.

I will put up some pics with terrain, minis and such as soon as I have a chance. I will also include a pic of the advert so that people can judge for themselves if it is something that would bother them or not.

Otherwise, it is a very high quality product, just that dumb logo and website along one entire length of it.

advert can be cut off without many problems


SD-COMBATMAT SANDS

$54.99
SD-COMBATMAT PLAINS

$54.99


are you fething kidding me!?
at around £30 this is great!
feth the GW board, for the same price i can buy this and spend a bit on GW scenery and it will not only look better, but still be cheaper by miles, and more durable.

I think it would bother me too.

I also don't think it's obvious from looking at the page that the mat would come with an advert. It's fairly obvious once you know it's there, and look for it in the third picture, but otherwise I think I would have missed it.

Doesn't sound intentionally deceptive, but still annoying.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I won't be buying one either.

No problem guys, I am taking pics tonight at my game club, and will post them tomorrow.

Yes, the Mat looks great, really nice picture on it (I have the desert mat). And you could cut the Advert off, but then it would be too short for standard gaming. If that does not bother you then knock yourself out, by all means, it is of very high quality, much better than most of the other mats I have seen.

GW used to do a green felt / static grass covered matt
just plain, it was allways falling apart, its not very thick, so tends to rip, it comes rolled up in a packet, so it has a natural curl to it, which took me 3 weeks to get it flat again.
the grassy effect rubbed off very quickly.
and it was £20.


so all in all, this matt is a win compaired to GW's efforts.

Yeah, I know the Mat you are talking about, my friend has one. It is pretty crappy. His has creases in it and the flock falls off constantly. Its still better than a table top by far, though.

The Combatmat is much higher quality, no doubt, it looks like it will last for ages, just feels solid. It also comes rolled up though and has a curl to it but I think that will come out if I leave it under the bed for a while.

Its just the dumb, dumb, dumb giant logo that irks me. Some people may not care, if they don't care, then go for it as the Mat really does look beautiful other than that.

im not sure about that, the back is laminated
so on a flat surface it tends to slip alot.


ill have to buy a combatmat and see how easy it is to paint out the logo and address.

I guess that would be possible, but difficult, you would be painting on cloth and so it may end up looking even worse, although I am not an expert at that kind of thing by any means.

I'd still like to see a nice pic of it whenever you get a chance Reecius, I am interested in picking something like this up to start doing more gaming at my place. Thanks, and also a big thanks for the warning about the advent

Reecius should have pictures soon, probably> I know he was taking pictures while he was playing on the mat tonight.

Hey Platuan, we need to get a game in before you head out. Hopefully your chaos wont ream me like Abe's did tonight, that was the worst shilacking I have had in a loooong time!


Ok here are some pics, the Mat looks great and is very durable, but you can see in the last pic the long advert, I couldn't fit it in frame from a standing position, but you get the idea. It sticks out 3.5" from the edge and is just about 4' long, it is the name of the company and the website repeating down the short length of the Mat.

Other than that, I really like the mat a lot. It looks great with brown terrain. It curled up a lot during game play, but we put out books down on the corners to keep it in place. Also, I have a GW modular gaming hill which I put together so that it was long and skinny and it covered a good chunk of the advert, it would just get annoying to have to do that every time.

So people can decide for themselves if it is worth buying. I can post more pics if anyone wants.

I am storing it between my matress and my box spring right now so hopefully by next week's game it will no longer curl up.

That looks like a great set up you have got there.
The advert is ridiculous.
I love the Army Transport system so I shan't be boycotting Sabol,
but I will be staying well clear of this mat until that advert goes!

Perhaps making this shortcoming more widely known will convince Sabol to change future runs of the product. That terrible print is totally uncalled-for in a paid product.

Thanks Alex, we do have a good game club here, lots of guys are building terrain right now too so it helps add some variety.

Yeah, that is how I felt, I was unrolling the mat and I was so stoked until the end and I was like, what the hell is that big flipping advert doing on my brand new mat? It was such a shame because otherwise it is a kick ass product. It did not slide one inch during game play.

I hope he does take it off for his sake, it is a real eye sore unless you cover it up.

Wow, what a stupid decision.

That text could easily be moved right to the corner and made much, much smaller.

Sales would more likely be lost from seeing that, just like how they lost my sale. I was considering buying one until you pointed out that text.

They would have gotten more sales via word of mouth and general awe of the mat as people come over to see the photorealistic print.

If it would have the logo in a corner of the mat it would be a good product. But with the logo all over the place it will turn a lot of customers ( me included ) away from the product.

To me the boulders with shadows do not look realistic at all. the sand on bare stone was ok, but boulders on flat 2d doesnt even look good from a photo, to me it would look even worse up close.

I would rasther use textured wallpaper.


I checked the Zuzzy website, their textureed terrain mats are also made of rubber and are the same size and cost slightly less. No comparison in quality.


http://www.zuzzy.com/

There is no desert terrain mat but they do have:

Moorlands:
http://www.zuzzy.com/vf-ml-001_terra_flex_gaming_mat.html

Basic green terrain, the texturing looks rather simplistic, the weakest of the three sets.

Scourged Forest:
http://www.zuzzy.com/rl-tf-001_terra_flex_gaming_mat.html

Plenty of grimdark part live, part dead, desecrated rather than hostile terrain. My pick of the three.

Sulfur Fields:
http://www.zuzzy.com/dr-tf-001_terra_flex_gaming_mat.html

Chaos wastes, volcanic terrain, surface of Mars whatever you want. Dead dead lands.

I am happy to use dyed cloth personally, but if I were to buy the Zuzzy sets are no brainer when compared to Sabol.

The Zuzzies look awesome. Of course, the Zuzzy mats need to be painted, while the Sabols are ready to go right out of the bag...

Reecius wrote:Then the mat would be about 6" too short. It is exactly 4' by 6'.

You was robbed!

that print is ridiculous on a battlemat. the whole point of scenery and a play mat is to pretend you're fighting on a battlefield of that nature. i can't think of any fluff story in the 40k universe that had armies fighting on planets with giant writing advertising wares from a rogue trader on every patch of land... this was a bone headed move from a company that should know better. if we're BUYING from them we already know about them!!!!

Yeah, it came down to a Zuzzy or the Combatmat for me, and after a long debate I went with Sabol. I have not seen a Zuzzy in person, but everyone has told me it looks great.

The textured rocks actually look pretty good in real life. The plains Mat does not have that, it is flat basically. I actually ordered the plains mat, but got the desert! That is the only time the Warstore has mixed up an order on me. I am OK with the desert Mat though, no one else in my club has a desert themed mat so I will stick with it.

And not seeing the advert before buying it was EXACTLY why I was so mad, because as a lot of others have said, knowing it was there, I would not have bought it.

COuld they not have extended it by a foot in width, and used the excess 6" on either side to print the advert on, and provide somewhere convenient for dead models or reinforcments to be placed in the mean time?

Got to say, with the 2D nature and the Advert, I'm not terribly impressed.

Orlanth wrote:To me the boulders with shadows do not look realistic at all. the sand on bare stone was ok, but boulders on flat 2d doesnt even look good from a photo, to me it would look even worse up close.

You really have to see the mat in person to understand why there are shadows on it. The top of the mat is literally a high res picture(we couldn't decide if it was one of those telescope/satellite/probe pictures of Mars or just a picture of a desert) printed onto the mat. It does look very good and very well done and then you hit that line of white text(they could have at least done it in black so it was easier to ignore, I may have bought one then) and the whole feel of the mat drops. Everyone at the club last night who saw it commented on the damn advert.

I was looking at there web site and the pictures they have up makes it look like only SD-COMBATMAT "PLAINS" comes with the slowed advert, If you bought the "sands" mat I can see why you would be pissed. This sort of thing makes me shy away from buying anything from sabol. Next thing you know there bags will have advert gak all over them.

Wow ... really poor planning on Sobol's part.

Thanks for the heads-up ... like others, I will not be buying one until that advert is removed (and not cut off).

I've just ordered Zuzzy's matt samples to decide which ONE I want to order. As it stands now, I want all three but my wallet kick my butt if I did that !!

Looking at the pics on their website, is it just me, or would others take the writing on the matt as a watermark on the picture to ensure if it's used elsewhere, others know who made it?

I thought it was a watermark too, which was one of my points to Mr. Sabol as the other three pics do not show it.

Man that advert really kills it . i am going to with the Zuzzy's mat

Looks very nice. The Advert could be fixed on Sabol's part by putting it on the other side of the mat (which other companies do). A shame...I guess you'll have to get into Warmachine/Hordes and start playing on a 4x4

Reecius wrote:I actually ordered the plains mat, but got the desert!

Well the lettering aside here is a 100% bona fide reason to send the mat back. Its desert not plains, and thus is the wrong item. You are not being picky, perhaps you use flock or static grass basing or just want a temperate battlefield.

Return the mat, get a Zuzzy or IMHO better yet get some grass green cloth dye (or desert yellow), a goodly size of cheap material and make your own. You can either sew the material onto backing or glue it onto a hard base. You can create folds in a hard base battlefield by glueing the say 6x4 cloth onto three 2x4 boards. Don't forget to get another yard of cloth for covering your hills, this also means your hills directly match your mat. Recommendeed and much cheaperr.

go zuzzy - i'll provide a review on it when I can

Did you manage to straighten out the Sabol mat by putting in between your mattress, think that is what you said you did, ?
Has anyone here used Zuzzy and if so, what are the thoughts on taht one?

Yeah, it is as flat as a pancake now, no curl at all.

I am going to write an article in the article section as soon as I have a minute to spare.

Ah. Now I see that print out. That's... not good. I can understand they want to put their name on it, but does it have to be 4 feet of big white text?

BattleTech mapsheets have the BTech logo, the copyrights, the name of the map sheet, the map pack it came from, and it's all tiny and down the bottom in a way that doesn't get in the way. That printing detracts from what is otherwise a very effective terrain maker or board enhancer.

Yeah, it is annoying as all hell, really a shame because in all other respects, I love the Mat.

Add me to the masses of: "Lulz no way." I have to say, this is one of the better reviews as well. Honestly, we have a lot of great products for us out there, and it's great to hear about them. But it's rare we get something as assinine as this. I mean, an advert on a terrain map? Really? That's a good idea? Why couldn't he have just provided an advert in a protective tubing or some such? It's not like Sabol doesn't have any other products out there. We'll see what happens, maybe they will print a non-Downs Syndrome version.

Hi all -
I mentioned above (last week) that I had ordered the Zuzzy Mat Samples. Well, they arrived and I am most impressed. They are all fantastic and well detailed.

Of the three, my least favorite is the Verdant Fields because, IMO, it's a little too hyper-textured ... to the point it looked like a shag carpet to me. But that's just me. I tend not to play on green fields anyway. BTW, the website does a very good job of showing the texture and with a miniature for scale.

Given the nature of the other two mats, The Despoiled Reaches and The Ruined Land, you could get by without even drybrushing them I suppose. The samples, while a good 3"x6" size didn't show all the detail so there may be some features that you'd want to add some color to.

Finally, the mats are thin and will roll and store easily but, given the material, I expect the large ones will lie flat when unrolled.

Oh, another benefit I thought of the other night after a typical clumsy gamer spill ... these are water proof !!

At any rate, for me, I'm sold on these and will be ordering shortly.

Cool, you should post a review with some pics when you get it, I am very curious to check this out.

I really want a Zuzzy mat, but man they are like $65 shipped for a 4x6. thet are so nice looking though!

Here's my review, sort of in regard to zuzzy (maybe Malfred will make it into an article or something).

http://www.freewebs.com/thespire/40kterrain.htm

Wow, that is a sweet looking table with all the terrain, Tazok.

I'll get a video, and picture review on zuzzy game mat.


It took me about 4 hours to paint that crap ;P

ITS WORTH IT THOUGH.

It doesnt even curl hahah.

Sweet, looking forward to a video review, that will be ace!

I really don't mind the advert. it looks like a great mat to me. I just don't need one yet.(plenty of places with mats/boards to play on.

Good thing I don't use battle mats.

Wow, I was going to order one and now I won't because of the ad - hell they can print their entire effing catalog on the back of it and I will advertise from here to NY but if there is anything on the gaming side, that rules it right out for me.

Honestly, and I do NOT mean this disrespectfully... I don't get it.
So, you're buying a product with an advertisement on it. Okay. Fine.

Do you get upset because your soda can says "Coca-Cola" across it? Or "Sprite."
What about that "ADIDAS" on your shoes.
Would you expect Ford, Chevy, etc. to remove all indications of who made the car you bought?

The majority of products we buy today are covered in advertisements. This one just happens to advertise the location where it may be purchased, rather than who the maker is.

Also, and this is just IMO, I don't think it ruins the aesthetics of the mat any more than those plastic disks with the black edge ruin the aesthetics of the minis we play the game with.

For those of you who state that you won't buy the mat for *this* reason, I think it's a poor decision. It's a solid product with an excellent history in user reviews, over all.

Just my 2 cents.

Eric

Bases are, unfortunately, necessary in order for the models to stand up, thus enhancing the aesthetics of the game! With the rims painted and the top dressed correctly they can be easily overlooked. White writing is in no way beneficial to the aesthetics of the game.

I think it's has more to do with the nature of the product having an ad rather than just the ad itself. The ENTIRE point of the product is to make your battlefield look more realistic. If you didn't care or want that you wouldn't be interested in a battle mat in the first place, you'd find a 4x6 table and just play. But since you're buying their product to make your battlefield look more like a real one the ad is a poor decision that takes away from what the product is trying to achieve.

To use your coke comparison, how happy would you be if every coke can had a little plastic Coke-a-Cola piece in the can that you had to fish out before drinking it. The point of the coke is to drink it, and you still can but there's some extra hassle associated with doing so. Sure you can play on the map but there's something taking away from the point of it.

@MM - Bases.. dont have GW writing all over it. . . .


thats all, i have to put in.










SABOL COMBAT MAT




Photo textured.


versus



ZUZZY DESPOILED REACHES




Its actually textured. Costs exactly the same as Sabol. No advert.


I'm still working on getting pics, just been busy.



I think there is a clear winner.

MagickalMemories wrote:Honestly, and I do NOT mean this disrespectfully... I don't get it.
So, you're buying a product with an advertisement on it. Okay. Fine.

Do you get upset because your soda can says "Coca-Cola" across it? Or "Sprite."
What about that "ADIDAS" on your shoes.
Would you expect Ford, Chevy, etc. to remove all indications of who made the car you bought?

The majority of products we buy today are covered in advertisements. This one just happens to advertise the location where it may be purchased, rather than who the maker is.

Also, and this is just IMO, I don't think it ruins the aesthetics of the mat any more than those plastic disks with the black edge ruin the aesthetics of the minis we play the game with.

For those of you who state that you won't buy the mat for *this* reason, I think it's a poor decision. It's a solid product with an excellent history in user reviews, over all.

Just my 2 cents.

Eric

Stupid comparison.

Sorry Magickal, I have to agree with BrookM here and say that this is a stupid comparison.

Battle mats are meant to look good and replicate real terrain in scale. While there is certainly room for a product/brand/manufacturer identifier, they should take an example from those very car makers you mention and make the add a small icon/symbol in the corner, along with a name or website that's transparent.

All the product examples you mention have their logos and brand identifiers small, and integrated into the design of the product.

With this mat, it's akin to buying a car and finding out that the front hood, side panels, roof, trunk lip, and inside dash are emblazoned with the manufacturer's name written in a ugly, large block font.

I'm sold, Zuzzy for me.

Wow, BrookM... thanks for the stellar addition to the conversation. You should follow the example of Vertrucio and actually contribute to the conversation.

@ Vertrucio:

Neiter small, nor integrated:


Small in comparison to the product, but NOT small.


Again, neither small nor integrated.


The examples above are "integrated" in that they are "built into" the product, but one could use that argument for the Sabol mat, too. the advertisement is "built into" it by being included in the graphic.

With this mat, it's akin to buying a car and finding out that the front hood, side panels, roof, trunk lip, and inside dash are emblazoned with the manufacturer's name written in a ugly, large block font.

This is a HUGE stretch. Huge.

That being said, I'm not going to disrespect anyone's points of view. Your opinion is just that... your opinion... and it's NO less valid than my own.
I'm just expressing a differnt point of view, is all.

Eric

No I'm with everyone else Magickal - there's no comparison between brand names and trademark/logos (which is what Coke is - they don't put the name on for fun, Coke is the brand) and a name plastered needlessly and so obviously across something that's designed to look good.

This is an obtrusive and completely necessary (and huge) amount of white text that destroys what is meant to be a terrain piece. I've already given the example of the BattleTech map sheets that have tiny white or black text on one end and a small logo. They are hardly intrusive. This could be 'zone destroying'. A realistic looking battlefield with great terrain and models and then... a four foot SABOL INDUSTRIES BATTLE MAT THINGY spread across one side.

Comparing that to actual logos and trade marks is just plain silly. Your Adidas example is hilarious - people guy Adidas because it's Adidas, not because they want to pay lots of money for a simple track suit. People would buy a Sabol mat because they want a cool looking mat, not because they want to have a Sabol product.

I bought MY Adidas because they were comfortable, fit well, and I knew they'd last. I could give a rats rip WHO made them or how big the logo is.
That part of your point is moot.


That being said... I'm cool with it that you guys disagree.

Eric

P.S. Your second sentence says it's "necessary." I think you mean "unnecessary." Not harassing you. Just trying to help.

MM: sadly, I agree that the haters have a point. None of your examples involve the actual product itself in any degree of it's basic function. THe product of the coke is the drink, not the can. It is the taste and experience of the drink you are buying that can for. Same with the Ford emblem on the front of the SUV. Is the emblem a part of the vehicle? Yeah, it is. However, does that emblem really affect the basic premise, purpose, or operation of that vehicle? I'll bet not. Same thing with the Ford tailgate. Does the letter stamping affect at all the capability of that tailgate to perform it's basic function? feth no.

What's drawing ire here is that the basic function of the mat is to look good while providing a decent surface to play on. It's NOT just a surface, otherwise people could buy something that looked like rubber or colth for a lot less money. It's photo-realistic, which is a MAJOR selling point for the product. And this letter print on it, to some of us, trashes the effect that the mat is attempting to achieve. If all I wanted was a mat to play on, I would have bought a 4x6 sheet of some kind of foam rubber.

It is an aesthetic violation, somehting that I normally don't give a rats ass about. However, since SO much of the intrinsic value of this product is wrapped up in what it looks like, the print works very hard to spoil the value of the entire product. And the suggestion to cut it off is asinine. I actually like the idea of coloring it in with black, or maybe a matching tone or colro to the mat itself.

Also, I think the example you quoted for discount held better than you might think at first glance. The print on the mat covers a much greater proportion of it's product than even the tailgate covers of it's product. Admittedly, that argument has come down merely to a matter of degree; but sometimes that's very important.

This is a HUGE stretch. Huge.

Funny, that's what I thought of your argument.

Are you seriously trying to tell us there's no difference whatsoever between the Coke can, made solely for the purpose of housing your drink until you've consumed it, of which the large, clearly labeled can is actually a benefit since you know WHAT exactly you're grabbing out of the fridge, to the photo-realistic combat mat meant to represent real terrain that is RUINED by the addition of giant, ugly advertisements all along the side which kills said realism, which can't realistically be covered with terrain all across every single time if you want a different experience each time you play?

And about the cars, funny how you went looking for an old tailgate specifically to address your point. I see a lot of trucks around here and while they're mostly older, you'll be hard-pressed to find a newer truck with a tailgate designed like that. Most trucks nowadays, like cars, have small chrome badges as opposed to the huge lettering stamped into the metal like they did 30-40 years ago. And even then, it's not quite the same thing as the combat mat, in some cases people are actually quite proud of those "advertisements". Some people even go as far as buying a giant Chevy bow tie decal with their own money and put it on their windshields, or go for custom paint jobs that feature the logos somewhere, or even freaking covers for your brake lights with the logos integrated into them. And if you're lucky to afford something a little fancier you feel even more proud to be sporting that Ferrari badge on your hood. It's more of a status symbol than a detriment, and they don't really detract from the vehicle at all.

In the case of the combat mat though, it does. The giant, ugly ad ruins the entire purpose of the mat, which is to provide a realistic playing surface. Kinda kills the realism when you've got WWW.SABOLDESIGNS.COM repeated all down the side. Why bother with the photo-realistic image, or in fact the mat at all if you're going to do that? What's wrong with leaving it to the customer to advertise FOR you? How many people when asked are really going to say "Oh, no, I can't tell you where I bought it, I want to be the only one in this store to own such an awesome gaming peripheral, go make your own!"

Comparing that to actual logos and trade marks is just plain silly. Your Adidas example is hilarious - people guy Adidas because it's Adidas, not because they want to pay lots of money for a simple track suit. People would buy a Sabol mat because they want a cool looking mat, not because they want to have a Sabol product.

This is also true, although I've seen some people make a case for higher-priced clothing being of a higher quality and thus better fitting/more comfortable etc., MOST OF THE TIME, people buy from big brands like American Eagle or Abercrombie because of the brand. You don't go into Abercrombie and pay $50 for a plain t-shirt, you want to display that Abercrombie logo so everyone knows exactly where you got it from.

I bought MY Adidas because they were comfortable, fit well, and I knew they'd last. I could give a rats rip WHO made them or how big the logo is.
That part of your point is moot.

No, it isn't. Maybe that's why you bought them, but I can guaran-fething-tee you that's not why EVERYONE does. If the brand was no big deal then why not just buy a track suit from Wal-Mart? I bought one of the most comfortable pair of jeans at Wal-Mart one day and I kinda regret buying them solely for work because now they're destroyed and I can't wear them anywhere else.

That being said... I'm cool with it that you guys disagree.

Oh, stop. You're coming across as a huge [Mod edited for politeness] right now, you know that?

"Oh it's okay, I don't care that you guys disagree, I know I'm right and that's all that matters HURR!" You're not fooling me.

What's drawing ire here is that the basic function of the mat is to look good while providing a decent surface to play on. It's NOT just a surface, otherwise people could buy something that looked like rubber or colth for a lot less money. It's photo-realistic, which is a MAJOR selling point for the product. And this letter print on it, to some of us, trashes the effect that the mat is attempting to achieve. If all I wanted was a mat to play on, I would have bought a 4x6 sheet of some kind of foam rubber.

Exactly, THAT here is the issue, the fact that the advertisement ruins the mat and makes it a waste of money. If they wanted to advertise they could have found a much better way of doing it, that's all.

The print on the mat covers a much greater proportion of it's product than even the tailgate covers of it's product.

Exactly (again), so that would be like the example before where the logo/make isn't just there, it's painted on the entire side of the car and ruining the look of the vehicle. If done right a logo/model doesn't hurt the car at all, and even looks good, but something like that...unless you're driving a pace car it's just an eyesore.

Comparison to a can of coke is bunk. The mat is purchased purely for aesthetic value, the can of coke is not.

A better comparison would be to a framed print with a deviantart watermark. Or paying someone to paint your house, only to discover afterwards that they've painted their company website address at eye level in a clashing colour on every wall. This is a very unintelligent piece of branding.

MagickalMemories wrote:Honestly, and I do NOT mean this disrespectfully... I don't get it.
So, you're buying a product with an advertisement on it. Okay. Fine.

Do you get upset because your soda can says "Coca-Cola" across it? Or "Sprite."
What about that "ADIDAS" on your shoes.
Would you expect Ford, Chevy, etc. to remove all indications of who made the car you bought?

The majority of products we buy today are covered in advertisements. This one just happens to advertise the location where it may be purchased, rather than who the maker is.

Also, and this is just IMO, I don't think it ruins the aesthetics of the mat any more than those plastic disks with the black edge ruin the aesthetics of the minis we play the game with.

For those of you who state that you won't buy the mat for *this* reason, I think it's a poor decision. It's a solid product with an excellent history in user reviews, over all.

Just my 2 cents.

Eric

You are free to your opinion, but that is not even close to a good comaprison.

The models' bases are neccesary for the game, they do not say Games Workshop in big letters on them.

If you bought a painting you liked and it had the artists name written down one side of it to advertise him and not as a part of the work and you did not know to expect this before you bought it, you would most likely be pissed.

I hate branding, advertising and all of that crap, it is too prevelant in our culture as is. The fact that we drown in the gak does not mean we should roll over and accept it as a given. I do not wear clothes with brand names on them in most cases because I do not want to be a walking fething billboard.

And again, the reason I was so mad, is because I felt mislead. The pictures of the Mat DO NOT show the ad, it is missrepresentation. There is one little pic of it that looks like a watermark on the photo.

If anyone else does not mind it then fine, it is otherwise a nice piece of gear, as I have said.

And magikal, your avatar sucks big time man, you should change that. If it is meant to be in protest of the derogatory terms, it is not so clear as to avoid making you look bad.

Eh, I think he's just arguing just for the sake of arguing. If he saw the mat with its ugly block lettering across an entire edge, he would probably agree.

It's already devolved into some hypothetical abstract argument, which is pointless.

Yeah you are right Vertucio, the stupid internet always brings out the ugly side in people. The argument is pointless.

Regardless of how a brand name is integrated into a product, the point is that it shouldn't detract from the product. GW stamps their name on every metal fig-and you could even question why they do this since it get buried in the plastic base, but nobody questions it because it doesn't detract from the finished product.

Mainly because it is out of sight when the product is finished.

As for my stellar addition, sometimes I feel that a wall of text is overkill.

Reecius wrote:And magikal, your avatar sucks big time man, you should change that. If it is meant to be in protest of the derogatory terms, it is not so clear as to avoid making you look bad.

It might more have to do with that slow is considered an "acceptable" word to throw around while the others aren't.

Unless it's an argument for making the other words more acceptable to throw around casually, in which case I'd NO.

MagickalMemories wrote:I bought MY Adidas because they were comfortable, fit well, and I knew they'd last.

You knew the random track suit you bought would last? Why would that be? Because it was made by Adidas? Don't pretend that you are immune to branding, that's just sadly disingenuous.

Like the mat, shame about the lettering, like the zuzzy mat, shame about having to paint them! I'll stick with the 2ftx2ft foam pre-flocked boards I use which I picked up many years ago from a trader at Partizan.... I'll try and dig their name out annd post here with web link!

There is a big conflit between a realistic battlemat concept and the titan sized pointless letters... Its like going to the movies and theres always a border with huge letters with the name of the movie, it just doesnt make sense... its poor taste and unprofessional publicity methods... and gets people feedup and ultimatly annoyed!

These mats are going to be looked at for hours and hours and its their intention to create a imaginary to the players... With these fonts they just trow the mat purpose out of the window.
Sabol exec's that took this decision were out of touch with reality...I Will avoid this mat and advertise to my friends as a faulty product.

Some of the stuff you people are throwing out at me is ridiculous and, frankly, you ought to act a litle better.
We disagree. Cool. I'm fine with that.
Don't get "Warseer" on me for not falling in with the vocal majority of the thread. You don't like it. You said your part. I don't mind it. I said my part.

"Oh it's okay, I don't care that you guys disagree, I know I'm right and that's all that matters HURR!" You're not fooling me.

Funny. Here, *I* thought I was simply expressing my OPINION, as was everyone else. The odd thing about opinions is that they cannot be right OR wrong.
How might I *fool* you with my opinion? There's no "man behind the curtain." No smoke. No mirrors. Just my opinion. At no time did I say you guys were WRONG. If it's how you feel about it, you CAN'T be wrong. I simply stated that I DISAGREE. It's okay. People can do that now days. We're allowed.


"Donkey cave?" Enjoy being reported. Really... Grow up.


Seriously, people... I'm not saying "I'm okay with your side because I'm right and you're wrong." Look around. it's some of the "haters" that are saying that. I'm saying, "Hey. We disagree. That's cool." Unlike SOME in this thread seem to believe, I do NOT think everyone has to agree with the majority or get flamed for it.

I didn't search for an OLD tailgate. I searched Google images for "Ford Gate" and that was one of the FIRST PAGE images. Funny, how you didn't comment that the FIRST Ford image I posted was of the NEWER, SMALLER logo.

MY Avatar sucks, Reecius? Pot meet Kettle. Yours is no work of art. Mine happens to be making a statement.
Here:
http://www.r-word.org/ }edit{<----- Dakka's auto-spell check messes this up. The "are" should be the 18th letter of the alphabet. }/edit{
Thanks for getting it, BrookM. It's good to know that, despite any disagreement, you can still see what should be obvious. : )

Not only am I not arguing "for the sake of arguing," I'm not arguing at all. I'm saying, "I feel (a), you feel (b). Cool."
As for seeing the mat... www.miniaturemarket.com. It's a local St. Louis game store. Been there, done that, played on the mat.

As for Adidas, I buy them because the brand has a good reputation but NOT because they're Adidas, if you understand what I mean by the difference. It's an OLD product, but a perfect example... Back in the 80's and early 90's, "Swatch" watches were the craze. People bought them because of the name. I did NOT, because they were cruddy quality and broke regularly. Nobody I knew that had one owned ot for more than 2 or 3 months before it died.
Had they been good watches, I'd have bought them because of the quality.
I may buy a brand because it's a good brand, but NOt because of the brand *name.*

No, it isn't. Maybe that's why you bought them, but I can guaran-fething-tee you that's not why EVERYONE does

I was highly amused by this. MY comment about it was to contrast the blanket statement someone made... and you're turning my comment about MYSELF into one.

I would like to make one clarification that, apparently, I have not done yet...

I think the lettering on the mat is larger than necessary and should be located closer to the edge for (a) easier covering or (b) easier removal.
MY piont is that I don't think the fact that it ISN'T is that big a deal.

Now... disagree with me all you want. That's cool. I'll be happy to DISCUSS it further. How about trying to stop the mud flinging, though, for those of you who are? There's no need for derision and derogatory commentaries.

Eric

I like slinging mud, hay, its a pass time!

I dislike the lettering, it's a mistake in my opinion on Sabols part because it will harm rather then improve sales.

It's not however a big deal, but I've yet to see anyone actively say they would rather buy it WITH then WITHOUT the lettering, ergo, its likely to harm sales. (there will always be those who don't mind, and those who are obviously apoplectic!)

I'd not buy one.... then again, the wife would kick me if I even suggested it as we have more then enough terrain as it is :-)

The biger deal is the fact its not clear from the advertising. Not sure (and willing to be corrected) but in the UK you have the right to return any item purchased on line within 30 days with no questions asked for a re-fund (with some caveats on DVD's and Software not being opened I believe) to protect the consumer from making an ill informed purchase from poor pictures or descriptions.

On that basis, send the fether back!

Nothing guaranteed to make a supplier "Correct Errors" then lots of returned items or poor sales.... where as bitching on a net forum not particularily known for changing manufactures policies :-)

Coke is printed on the packaging not on the product.

Same should go for this.

Hell supply stickers if you have to.

MM: You can have your opinion, which is inviolate, but you can't then try to explain or defend your opinion as anything other than personal preference without allowing rebuttal. The statement "i don't mind the lettering, it won't bother me" is a pure opinion. The statement "Do you get upset because your soda can says "Coca-Cola" across it? Or "Sprite." " Stops being a personal opinion, and starts advocating your position as opposed to ours.

That advocacy allows people to respond in kind, particularly since your initial post was at least mildly condescending towards those that are opposed to the writing. It's not your opinion that is being argued against, but the evidence you put forward to defend that opinion.

Regardless, the way the lettering was sprung on the consumer was pretty shady. Adding an obvious advertisement to product whose primary goal is to be aesthetically pleasing is a pretty big fail.

100% agree with Poloius, Grizgrin and Navarro. 90% agree with Reecius & Sidstyler. Eric, I really think you’re off base here. Of course, it’s just a terrain mat, so let’s not take disagreement too seriously.

@ Polonius- I'm not in disagreement. Rebuttal doesn't bother me. Making me Public Enemy Number One and overreacting does, though.

Seriously, people... I'm not saying "I'm okay with your side because I'm right and you're wrong." Look around. it's some of the "haters" that are saying that. I'm saying, "Hey. We disagree. That's cool." Unlike SOME in this thread seem to believe, I do NOT think everyone has to agree with the majority or get flamed for it.

Sorry for the language (though "donkey cave" is the sensor, not my words). I don't know why but I was being a bit too confrontational with that post and it was a tad uncalled for.

I wouldn't say I'm a "hater", though, I've got an opinion too and I'm just trying to defend it. I don't think anyone cares if you mind the ad or not, but the comparisons you made to the ad on the mat are just a little weak in our opinion, especially in the case of the Coke can.

Funny, how you didn't comment that the FIRST Ford image I posted was of the NEWER, SMALLER logo.

I kinda did when I went on about badges.

Most trucks nowadays, like cars, have small chrome badges as opposed to the huge lettering stamped into the metal like they did 30-40 years ago. And even then, it's not quite the same thing as the combat mat, in some cases people are actually quite proud of those "advertisements".

And a lot of people have said that a smaller, unobtrusive logo is just fine. If it were a logo in the corner that blended in with the mat it wouldn't have been a big deal. A car, first and foremost, is for getting around, and small Ford/Chevy logos here and there don't really interfere with a car's purpose at all. The Sabol mat's only purpose is to make games look better and it fails hard when you've got this huge, unavoidable advertisement running the length of the thing for no real reason.

No one complains about the Sabol logos on their bags, a bag is for getting your army around, no one really cares. Advertising is just fine when it makes sense, but in this case we just feel that it doesn't.

MY comment about it was to contrast the blanket statement someone made... and you're turning my comment about MYSELF into one.

I don't like to make blanket statements often, but I feel in this case I'm not far off the mark. There are people like you who buy a brand for durability or reliability, but for every guy like you there are at least two more that buy a brand for the brand. A&F in particular like to sell jeans that are pre-ripped and look like they need to be replaced, and I can't think of any reason why someone would actually buy a pair of jeans like that thinking "These things look rugged, I should get a few years out of them!" when they look like they're one more rip away from heading into the garbage.

All I was trying to say is that his point wasn't "moot" like you claimed. Yeah it's a bit foolish to say literally "EVERYONE buys this because of that", but the fact that you personally don't buy brands like that doesn't really mean anything, other than the fact that you shop more sensibly than others.

Hell supply stickers if you have to.

See, that's not a bad idea, worlds better than the one they went with anyway. Lots of guys print stickers like that to advertise (I have some for Mana energy potion). Hell, I even mailed in for a whole bunch of Element stickers a few years ago because I liked them so much.

It's not your opinion that is being argued against, but the evidence you put forward to defend that opinion.

Exactly, though I got a bit carried away admittedly.

MagickalMemories wrote: [quote
MY Avatar sucks, Reecius? Pot meet Kettle. Yours is no work of art. Mine happens to be making a statement.
Here:
http://www.r-word.org/ }edit{<----- Dakka's auto-spell check messes this up. The "are" should be the 18th letter of the alphabet. }/edit{
Thanks for getting it, BrookM. It's good to know that, despite any disagreement, you can still see what should be obvious. : )

Haha, ok, fairplay. Although that mini looks really good in real life, I know I am not the best painter in the world. But your avatar, as I said, is not nearly clear enough to not make you look bad, mine may be aesthetically unpleasing, but it wont offend the world. That is just friendly advice. Do what ever you want though.

And you made yourself public enemy number one! You came in and told us all we were being rediculous for not liking one aspect of the item in question and then made a really poor comparison. Look at your own actions before criticizing others. I understand that you feel attacked now and are trying to defend yourself but just remember, we didn't come out of no where to gang up on you. If you would have expressed your opinion in a less inflamatory way, more people would have listened instead of jumping on your back. Again, just friendly advice.

Dont stress to much guys, its just a battle matt... even if just a pre printed one hehe
BTW The zuzzy one, is dead sexy but the price of these matts are a bit to much.

As for avatars, there was a time someone banned my poor inocent avatar saying it was not proper for a wargaming forum... yes its the same old avatar I made years ago and still use today... so go figure that, its all in the minds of people.

NAVARRO wrote:Dont stress to much guys, its just a battle matt... even if just a pre printed one hehe
BTW The zuzzy one, is dead sexy but the price of these matts are a bit to much.

As for avatars, there was a time someone banned my poor inocent avatar saying it was not proper for a wargaming forum... yes its the same old avatar I made years ago and still use today... so go figure that, its all in the minds of people.

they're both about 50 bucks, that's too much?

Sid - Thanks.

I can't argue any of the opinions you offered there. Though I disagree, they're solid opinions.

Hmm... 'cept the stickers. Thos would probably be a waste of money. I'd be surprised if ANYONE would apply them to the mat... and I can't think of anywhere else to apply them (in a non-graffitti manner ) where they'd matter... except a retailer's windows... but that's a different advertising approach altogether.
Shoot. I don't mind the advertising as is, but even *I* wouldn't add stickers to it for the advertising. LOL

Reecius - I actually looked back at my initial post (though not any others). THAT post doesn't say you're being ridiculous. It isn't "attacking" at all. Honestly, if I HAD said that, I'd edit the post & apologize. That isn't my style.
If I say anything (not defensively) that's attacking, I WILL backtrack and change it. I don't come here to argue, only discuss... even if it's to discuss differences.

Thanks.

Eric

jabbakahut wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:Dont stress to much guys, its just a battle matt... even if just a pre printed one hehe
BTW The zuzzy one, is dead sexy but the price of these matts are a bit to much.

As for avatars, there was a time someone banned my poor inocent avatar saying it was not proper for a wargaming forum... yes its the same old avatar I made years ago and still use today... so go figure that, its all in the minds of people.

they're both about 50 bucks, that's too much?

its $52 and with shipping it bumps it up to $65 for the zuzzy! again awesome mat, but I just cant see spending that much for one. unless there was nothing left to buy for my army. I really would like to have one though.

What this mat and advertising reminds me of is the way TV stations (and especially cable TV stations) advertise nowadays. They either have their little logo in the bottom corner of the screen, for the whole show, or they have that little corner pop-up, with an animated little blurb about what show is coming up next, or what show is new to the station. And it does the same thing on TV as it does for me with this mat:

It kills the suspension of disbelief.

When I'm playing a wargame on the table, I want to be absorbed into the game, see the terrain, and mat/table, and the painted armies, and be immersed it in. Likewise, when I watch TV, I want to immerse myself in it.

When I see that little pop-up on TV, and the logo on the mat, it rips me out of my immersion and reminds me: "oh yeah, I'm watching X tv channel", or "oh yeah, I'm playing with plastic toys on a sabol battlemat."

Either way it dampens the experience for me

MagickalMemories wrote:

Now... disagree with me all you want. That's cool. I'll be happy to DISCUSS it further. How about trying to stop the mud flinging, though, for those of you who are? There's no need for derision and derogatory commentaries.

Eric

First off I find that logo absolutely horrible. If I want a battle mat I don't want advertising all over it. Completely ruins it for me and I was considering getting this before finding this out.

Second @ MagickalMemories I think people are hammering you for your very bad analogies that simply do not hold up under even a little bit of scrutiny. The look of the battle mat is its functionality. None of that holds true for any of the other items you mentioned. So while you can have any opinion you want you should at least have a better understanding of what other people are saying. It is obvious that some 10+ people have said they would not buy this item now and you are the only one who would be interested in it. So only some 10% of the people seeing this review would no be interested in buying the item. That means it was a really bad business decision on the part of Sabol to do this.

It obviously detracts from the aesthetic value of the item and they could have just put a smaller and less obtrusive ad / logo in the corner of the mat.

Less like a pop can, more like this;

Hahaha, that is funny! It would have to say Leoart.com repeated a few times too!

No worries Magikal, we are all over it at this point I am sure.

I was in the hardware store today, and saw some precut plywood sheets at 2' x 4' three of which would be perfect for a game board, but it would end up being pretty pricey. Add in the paint, flock, etc. it would end up costing the same amount as the combat mat!

Maybe the store I went to was more expensive than others, but it was the closest.

yeah,
I don't like the Advert... It's something I could only tolerate if it was on a Free sample, you know to get the name out there...
But advertising to a guy has bought from you is dumb, why print your name on his mat?
It would be like BattleFoam putting their logo on everytray! It would kill sales!

It ruins the product for me.
I'm not a sabol representitive, I won't be posting their website advert in my battle reports.
I won't be buying one.

Panic...

Second @ MagickalMemories I think people are hammering you for your very bad analogies that simply do not hold up under even a little bit of scrutiny. The look of the battle mat is its functionality. None of that holds true for any of the other items you mentioned. So while you can have any opinion you want you should at least have a better understanding of what other people are saying. It is obvious that some 10+ people have said they would not buy this item now and you are the only one who would be interested in it. So only some 10% of the people seeing this review would no be interested in buying the item. That means it was a really bad business decision on the part of Sabol to do this.

I understand 100% what they don't like about it, and I can see why. My only point, really, is that it doesn't bother ME... that being said, the product is of no interest to me, either. It's cost is, IMO, excessive for what it is and -on top of that- I already have things to cover my table surface. I'm not so entranced by the graphic on the mat that (with or without advertising) it would make it's way onto my top 20 list... probably ever.

Also, I'm definitely not defending Sabol's decision to put the graphic where they did. Being the type of person who always wants to believe the best of people, I don't think it was put that way to make it so that people would choose to keep the advert, rather than snip it off. I think it was, simply, a placement mistake.

Who knows. Maybe I don't mind it being there because I know I'll never buy one, making the advertisement placement immaterial. Maybe that's it. I DO know that, when I played locally, the mat advert didn't bother me.
Then again... I didn't buy that one, either. : )

E

P.S. While I'd never compare a battlemat to the Mona Lisa, I did get a big kick (and a LOL) out of your comparison, Aduro.

Cruentus wrote:When I see that little pop-up on TV, and the logo on the mat, it rips me out of my immersion and reminds me: "oh yeah, I'm watching X tv channel"

QFT, that's why I would never pay for TV. Why give your money to someone for adverts, the point of this entire thread. I already bought your product, you don't need to remind me in repetitive type where I got it. If it is good enough that other players will want it, they will ask me where to get it. Adverts are designed to get you to buy stuff without thought, I take a proactive approach, if you offend me with and advert, I won't buy anything you make.

Wow. Magikal, sorry you got dogpiled there. I was trying to respond to your statement, not throw mud. Oh I DID respond about your "smaller" image as well. Prego, baby; it's in there.

But the Mona Lisa pic was still REALLY funny!

grizgrin wrote:Wow. Magikal, sorry you got dogpiled there.

I think by now he learned a valuable lesson: "Never put yourself between a man and its favorite drink..." ehehe

As for the prices of these things, If you add shipping to europe its never going to be a cheap buy... I refuse to pay so much for a matt of any type.

Magikal, Aduro's image pretty much sums up why I think advertising is best left off certain items.

If you go through your house you wont see any ads on your carpet, your wallpaper, your furniture, the house itself.
People who wear suits to work don't have the name of the tailors or factories that made the suits on the outside.
There are just times when for an illusion to be created the strings must be hidden.

To put the ad on in a place where its presence was going to compete with the mat itself is just corporate tomfoolery. The ad did not need to be repeated over and over and it could easily have been put closer to the edge.
A single ad near the edge would still be effective at identifying the product whilst giving the user the option of placing scenery over it during game time.

What they've done is akin to Games Workshop printing their name across vehicle hulls in places where removing them would ruin the model further. They don't do this because it would ruin the effect being aimed for and the amadans at Sabol will hopefully rectify their mistake.

The ignore button has proved invaluable to me. Unfortunately, it doesn't work on "quoted" posts...

vonjankmon wrote:I think it's has more to do with the nature of the product having an ad rather than just the ad itself. The ENTIRE point of the product is to make your battlefield look more realistic.

Precisely, Vonjankmon.
If I wanted to buy a surface to suspend my disbelief, then I will buy a product like Zuzzy.
If I was not worried about the look of the battle surface, I wouldn't even bother buying one, I would just play on a plan old table.
Magicalmemories completely missed the trees for the woods in his comparison.

Thanks for the review Reecius. Sorry it cost you that much to find out but you did the wargaming community as a whole a great service by taking one for the team so to speak.

I will stick with my zuzzy mats and not bother with a lower quality in both materials and production value product like sabol.

So now HF has to do a review of the zuzzy mats along with a guide on how to paint them.

Take your time, I'll wait.

Tazok sent me a Zuzzy mat review. I've been lazy.

I'm still lazy. Give me a week or so.

Ozymandias wrote:So now HF has to do a review of the zuzzy mats along with a guide on how to paint them.

Take your time, I'll wait.

Nope not gonna. Too much other BS in life right now and the one project I AM involved in will not be sidetracked by such things.

Tazok has sweet sweet stuff anyways. Don't let his love for greenskins fool you into believing that he isn't anything other than a terrain god.

Hellfury wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:So now HF has to do a review of the zuzzy mats along with a guide on how to paint them.

Take your time, I'll wait.

Nope not gonna. Too much other BS in life right now and the one project I AM involved in will not be sidetracked by such things.

Tazok has sweet sweet stuff anyways. Don't let his love for greenskins fool you into believing that he isn't anything other than a terrain god.

Fine then! I've seen Tazok's blog piece on the zuzzy mat and it looks great. Don't remember seeing a guide to painting though.

It's just a review, I think.